Then his whole problem is solved.

































Room Conversation                                       July 16, 1968, Montreal       Record number for Folio search: 330857

Prabhup─da: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class. In Jagannatha temple the arrangement is that... One does not know since how long... (someone enters) Come on. In Jagannatha temple... Sit down. Jagannatha temple, the pras─dam is cooked every day in new earthen pot. No old pot is used. Once used, it is thrown away. Formerly, this was the system in India. Even dishes, once used, it is thrown away. No washing. Even golden dishes, silver dishes, once used, it is thrown away. And now golden dishes, there is no use of golden dishes, neither nobody throws it away, but that was the system. Now the earthen dishes... Just like china clay dishes, this is considered impure because it is repeatedly used. In India, those who are strict Hindus, earthen dishes, once used, it will be thrown away. Clay dishes. So this is china clay dish. It is not to be used again. It is thrown away. Just like you have got paper plates and glass here. You eat it and throw it away. Similarly, India... Now it is being introduced, these paper dishes, gradually, but from very old time, refreshment or foodstuff supplied in clay dishes, and after eating, it is thrown away. So there is a potter class, who flourish. They sell their products. Just like in your country also, so many things are thrown away so that the manufacturer get chance to sell again. So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement. Similarly, in temple, the florist has to supply flowers daily. Mr. Khanvar(?), am I right? You know this Indian system?

Mr. Khanvar: Yes.

Prabhup─da: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bh─gavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called br─hmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a br─hmaṇa is addressed as paṇ┛ita mah─r─ja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭh─kura saheb, ṭh─kur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as chouddhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇ─ tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the

Bhagavad-g┤t─: c─tur-varṇyaṁ may─ sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibh─gaśaḥ. "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bh─gavata recommends, Suta Gosv─m┤ is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭh─ varṇ─śrama-vibh─gaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brahmac─r┤, he is brahmac─r┤, he is householder, he is v─naprastha, he is sanny─s┤." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bh─gavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a br─hmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life. That is the beauty. You haven't got to change. If somebody says that "Sir, I am potter. How can I be Kṛṣṇa conscious? It requires that one should be a br─hmaṇa, one should be very learned man, Ved─nta philosophy, and one must have the sacred thread, and this and that. So I am a potter. I am a cobbler. I am a washerman." No. Kṛṣṇa says, "No." You do not require to change. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says, "You do not require to change." Kṛṣṇa says that svakarmaṇ─ tam abhyarcya. You just try to worship the Supreme Lord by the result of your occupation. Because Kṛṣṇa requires everything. So if you are a potter, you supply pots. If you are florist, you supply flower. If you are carpenter, you work for temple. If you are washerman, then wash clothing of the temple. Temple is the center, Kṛṣṇa. And everyone gets chance to offer his service. Therefore temple worship is very nice. So this temple should be organized in such a way that we don't require any money. You give your service. That's all. You be engaged in your service. Don't change your service. But you try to serve the--temple means the Supreme Lord--by your occupational duty.

Śiv─nanda: In other words, in the correct position that... You might have a community, and then...

Prabhup─da: The community is supposed to be there. The potter is there, the washerman is there, the grocer is there, the milkman is there, everyone is there. So we haven't got to form community.

Śiv─nanda: No. In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad-g┤t─. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-g┤t─, Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice pras─dam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bh─gavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭh─ varṇ─śrama-vibh─gaśaḥ. Vibh─gaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned br─hmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosv─m┤ was speaking to very learned assembly of br─hmaṇas Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam. Because it is understandable not by ordinary class of men. But they are not disallowed. It depends on the speaker to present very nicely for their understanding. It is not, I mean to say, stopped. Nityam bh─gavata-sevaya. This is the process.

śṛṇvat─ṁ sva-kath─ḥ kṛṣṇaḥ


hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani

vidhunoti suhrt satam

If you kindly come and hear about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased upon you. Anyone. Suppose if somebody is interested with you, he likes your activity, he likes to hear about your qualities, you will be also pleased with him. "Oh, this man is interested with my affairs." So śṛṇvat─ṁ sva-kath─ḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is within your heart. Kṛṣṇa is within and without because He is all-pervading. It is not that He is simply without or within. He is within and without. That is all-pervading. Akhil─tma-bh┗taḥ. And all-pervading does not mean that He is not in Goloka Vṛnd─vana. He is there also. Goloka eva nivasaty akhil─tma-bh┗taḥ. Although He is in His abode, Goloka Vṛnd─vana, He is everywhere. Just like sun. He is ninety millions miles away from here, situated in sun globe, but he is everywhere. This light now, it is sunlight. So if sun can remain in that way, everywhere, why not the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He also remains everywhere? So He is within your heart. And when He sees that you are interested in hearing about Him, He becomes sympathetic. He is sympathetic to everyone. Still more sympathetic. So what does He do? Śṛṇvat─ṁ sva-kath─ḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa, when He sees that one is interested in hearing about Him, then He gives you facility. What is that facility? That facility is śṛṇvat─ṁ sva-kath─ḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-k┤rtanaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-kath─, talks about Kṛṣṇa, you, either you understand it or not understand it, it doesn't matter, if you simply sit down to receive, give aural reception to such message, you become pious. Immediately. Puṇya-śravaṇa-k┤rtanaḥ. You don't understand; simply you talk and discuss and hear, you become pious. Just like fire. You come to the fire, you understand it or not understand, you get warm. That facility is there. You don't require to understand how fire is produced, what is the chemical or physical constitution. You do it, understand or not understand. Just like you sit down on a car, motor car. You understand it or not understand it, what is the engineering of the car, but you run on. Similarly, kṛṣṇa-kath─, the simply, the simple method, if you kindly come and hear, then you will be pious. That is the first installment. You don't understand or don't follow, but if the injection is there you become pious. Puṇya-śravaṇa-k┤rtanaḥ. And if you give little attention, then the result will be hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadr─ṇi, all undesirable things that is accumulated within your heart, that will be cleared. Kṛṣṇa will help you.


Prabhup─da: Yes. Kṛṣṇa can be served by his own occupation, as I described just now. Or whatever you may be. You may be a potter, you may be a florist, you may be... Whatever you may be, but you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa by his work, by your work. You do not require to qualify yourself with some specific qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, you have to dovetail it under the direction of expert spiritual master, how you can serve. That's all.

Pradyumna: What does that expert mean in the list of qualifications for a devotee? In the list of qualifications of a devotee there is one qualification, expert.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Pradyumna: What does that mean in relation to the occupation?

Prabhup─da: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a br─hmaṇa, he was not a sanny─s┤. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely. That is expert. And when it is dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa, there is no gradation that this business is better and that business is lower because everything is for Kṛṣṇa. So that business becomes Kṛṣṇa. Do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And that is your success. Avy─pare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate 'khila p─rthiva v─naraḥ.(?) Expert. There is a very nice story in Sanskrit. A monkey. A monkey... You might have some experience, that sawmen, who cut wood? Sawmen. So a sawman was cutting wood by the saw. So at the end of business it was half cut so he pulled down a, I mean to say, a plug so that next day he will come and he'll again begin sawing. So went away. So one monkey came. So monkey sat down there and began to pull on the plug because monkey's business is simply mischievous. So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila p─rthiva v─naraḥ, vy─pare suvyaparam. Avy─para means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avy─para. Avy─para-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avy─pare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avy─pare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. If you know driving, that's all right. But don't take... My Guru Mah─r─ja explained that you haven't got to learn anything extra for Kṛṣṇa's service. Whatever you know, you just apply it... Then you become successful. Because our time is very short. We do not know when I am going to die. As soon as I am out of this body, I am completely under the grip of nature, and I do not know what kind of body I am getting next. Of course, Kṛṣṇa assures that His devotee will never be vanquished. He will get good body. But I do not know what kind of body I am going to... Therefore before finishing this body I will have to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. That is my success.


Room Conversation                                   September 24, 1968, Seattle                                                         331142

Prabhup─da: I understand that she, she felt some inconvenience, that girl, in your company.

Govinda d─s┤ (whispers): Harṣar─ṇ┤! You're making...

Prabhup─da: So she was...

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: I told her, I said, if she wished to come with us, (break) that only married women could come with us. I told her that. Because it was not good for men, unmarried men, brahmac─r┤s and brahmac─r┤ṇis, to constantly be mixing, and so I felt that it would be better for married people than brahmac─r┤s. And she... (someone moves microphone) ...did she wish to come?

Prabhup─da: She likes this... (microphone noise) But also marriage problem, one must have a choice. So if we force something, that is not (chuckling) good. At least, in your country it is not... Of course, in your country, the husband...the boys and girls are, I mean to say, not major, whatever the parents force, that is another thing. When the boys and girls are grown up, it is not possible. Just like in India, there was svayaṁvara. Svayaṁvara means the girl will select her own bridegroom. That was allowed to princess. Princess, highly qualified princess. So the father would make a challenge, that "This is the condition. One who can fulfill this condition, I'll offer my daughter to him." So this was generally amongst the princes. So there was great fight. (laughs) Just like Arjuna. Arjuna married Draupad┤. You know the condition? Her father made condition: there was a fish on the ceiling and one wheel was circling. So one has to pierce the eyes of the fish through the hole of the circle. And he cannot see directly. He has to see down. There is a reflection in waterpot. In this way, he had to pierce. (laughs) "In this way, he has to fix, and in one stroke the eye will be pierced. One who is successful, my daughter is for him." So nobody could, except only Arjuna. He was such expert bowman that he... Similarly, Lord R─macandra also made... In the palace there was a big bow. It was all hardened, made of iron. So long standing it was there. So one day, S┤t─ was sweeping the floor, and with her left hand she pushed the bow. It was very heavy. Nobody could... It was very weighty, heavy. And with her left hand she pushed it. So her father said, "Oh, this is wonderful girl. She can lift this. Nobody can lift it and with her left hand she pushed it? Oh, then my son-in-law will be he who can break this." (laughter) So he made a challenge that anyone, any prince, who will come and break this bow, he'll be my son-in-law. So it was only possible by R─macandra, Lord R─macandra. So these challenges were made amongst the kṣatriyas. Otherwise, generally, the parents would select. We were married. Whatever our parents selected, we accepted. I did not like my wife, (laughs) but gradually, I was accustomed. I was obliged to like. That's all. (laughs) That is the Indian system. You like or not like, you have to accept it. That's all. The psychology is that the girls, generally, before attaining puberty if she loves one boy, she cannot forget him. That is her psychology. And a boy also, when he is grown up, the first girl he makes choice, he also cannot forget. Therefore, by some way or other they are mixed up. So in your country the situation is different. You see? The boys and girls are freely mixing, and from school, college, they are freely mixing, free sex without any restriction. So we cannot enforce, at least, at the present moment. If some boy and some girl agree, then I bless him. That's all. Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes... Of course, sometimes scripture we say that "Woman is the cause of bondage." So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that. (chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master. And Prabhup─da means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhup─da. So each, everyone shall treat others as "My master." This is the Vaiṣṇava system.


Radio Interview                                       Los Angeles, February 12, 1969                                                     332197

Interviewer: Among your followers is the part of their lives which is not involved with the rules of your organization or with the formal meetings. Are there...? Do they simply proceed with their normal lives and work at jobs?

Prabhup─da: Yes, yes, work.

Interviewer: I mean, are there any prohibitions as to what type of work? For example, would a follower of yours work in a war industry?

Prabhup─da: Yes. If there is no other work, he can work in war industry, because he has to live. After all, he must earn something. Without earning, how can he live? So if there is no better job, he can accept any job. What can be done?

Interviewer: You take no...

Prabhup─da: But if we can get a better job... Suppose the war industry or butcher industry... That is also an industry. So if somebody offers some job in the butchery, naturally we are not inclined to accept such job, but...

Interviewer: I believe in the Buddhist philosophy that there are some professions like slaughtering animals and so on which are...

Prabhup─da: So far Buddhist philosophy is concerned...

Interviewer: And that's why I wondered if there were prohibitions within, you know, the outside contact with society that you make.

Prabhup─da: But our formula is that one should live... It is called sato vṛtteḥ. The vṛtti, the profession or the means of livelihood, must be very fair. Must be very fair. Sato vṛtteḥ. Because association will contaminate my mind and my intelligence, therefore, as far as possible, sato vṛtti. And this sato vṛtti is a Sanskrit word. According to the purification of profession, livelihood, one is called a br─hmaṇa, one is called a kṣatriya, one is called a vaiśya, one is called a ś┗dra, one is called lower than the ś┗dras. You see? So that is also... But in this age one cannot stick to a particular profession. Just like for the br─hmaṇas. The br─hmaṇas... For br─hmaṇas it is enjoined that they should learn scripture and they should preach scripture. That's all. They have six kinds of occupation. One of the main is this, to learn and to teach. But at the present moment everything has changed. So there is change. But as far as possible, we don't accept a profession or any job which is abominable.


Room Conversation                                     San Francisco, April 1, 1969                                                      332248

Therefore bodily necessities are not all my demands. I must have spiritual necessities also. So all this means that I must give up my attachment for this body and I must develop my spiritual needs." That is the purpose of religion. So here it is stated that v─sudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. All these religious principles can be achieved immediately if you place your love unto Kṛṣṇa. V─sudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ. Bhakti-yogaḥ means devotional... If you try to serve, in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa, then all these principles of religions will automatically come. You will know that "I am not this body, I am a spirit soul. I have... The material attachment is useless for me. My real business is spiritual advancement of life." Everything will be clear if you simply execute devotional service of Kṛṣṇa. V─sudeve bhagavati. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁs─ṁ viṣvaksena kath─su yaḥ. Again, (indistinct) one may execute very nicely his prescribed duties according to his religion, very good boy, but if he does not develop to hear about Kṛṣṇa, or God, this propensity... Just like you are sitting here to hear about Bh─gavata. Why? This is very nice symptom. You are developing to hear some things about God, or Kṛṣṇa. These tendencies. The temple, somebody comes to hear. Not all. Because they have no development. Life is wanted. So dharmaḥ svanuṣṭha... You may do your duty very nicely, you may be very moralist or philanthropist or so many they have manufactured. You may become everything. But if you have not that propensity to hear something about God, then all these are śrama eva hi kevalam, simply laboring, laboring, laboring. That's all. That means wasting time. Dharmasya hy ─pavargyasya. Now, people are generally inclined to execute religious principles to make economic development. Just like in your Christian religion they go to church and pray, "Oh God, give us our daily bread." That is mainly economic development. Not only here. In India also the temple go, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, please keep my family well," or this or that. Economic problem. Generally, people, they become religionist... Therefore modern politicians, they say, "Why should you..." Just like the Russians. They say, "Why should you go to church for begging, 'Give us our daily...' oh, you come to us. We shall give you sufficient bread." The Bolshevists, they make propaganda like this. They go to village to village and ask the village men, "Oh, you pray to your church, pray, 'O God, give us our daily bread,' So have you got your bread?" "No, sir." "All right. Pray to us." They have taken a truck full of bread and... "Take bread. Take bread. As much as you like." "So whom do you like?" Oh, they will naturally say, "I like you." (laughter) Because they are not intelligent enough to answer, "You rascal, wherefrom you have brought this bread, from your father's house?" (Laughter) Can you manufacture the bread in the factory, rascal? It is God's bread. But they have no intelligence. They cannot say like that. If they had presented to me, I would have at once said, "Rascal, this is not your father's bread. It is God's bread. You have stolen the property." You cannot manufacture bread or wheat. It is sent by God. That answer we have to give to these so-called Communists and rascals, godless people, that "You are not proprietor. You are all rascals. Everything belongs to God." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to present scientifically. We have to present by reason, by argument. Not that if we say somebody, "You are rascals..." No. You have to place the matter, that he is rascal. So that... Bh─gavata says that for economic solution... religion is not meant for economic solution. Economic solution is there, either you be religious or not religious. In God's kingdom there is wheat, there is rice, there is water, rainfall, and the production. Everything is there. There is fruit, there is flower. So either you be religious or not religious, it doesn't matter. Your economic problem is settled already. Just like in the prisonhouse, they are all criminals. That does not mean they will starve to death. The government has all arrangement to feed them. Similarly, although this material world is prisonhouse, all criminals are here, revolt, to a person are here, those who do not care for God. But still, their fooding problem, their lodging problem is there by arrangement of God. Everything is there. So Bh─gavata says, dharmasya hy ─pavargyasya n─rtho 'rth─yopakalpate. Don't execute religious principles for making your economic problem solved. Then? "We require some money." Yes. "What for?" N─rthasya dharmaik─ntasya k─mo l─bh─ya hi smṛtaḥ. And even if you get money, that is not for your sense gratification. N─rthasya dharmaik─ntasya. If you are religious, really, actually, a man of religiosity, then your money is not for sense gratification, as we are teaching our boys. They are working hard, they are getting money and they are spending for Kṛṣṇa. You see? Because they have understood that "My energy spent for Kṛṣṇa's cause is really utilized. And if I utilize my energy for sense gratification, then I am cats and dogs." So n─rthasya. If you get money... You must get money. But it is not meant for sense gratification. "Then what is the, it is meant? We have got senses. We have to satisfy it." Yes. You have to satisfy it, but not for enjoyment. As far as you require it. You require fooding. Yes, for maintaining your body. Not for satisfying the tongue. "This, I want to eat this, I want to eat that, I want to eat that." No. Eat something. Just maintain your body. That's all. You sleep just to keep yourself fit to work. Not that sleeping for twelve hours, fourteen hours. No. Six, seven, utmost eight. That's all. Then eating, sleeping, defending. That's also required. Defend yourself. Not to encroach upon other's property. Just like Hitler sending soldiers in others' country. Why? You defend your own country. That's all right. You defend your home. That is not prohibited. The ś─stra allows it. If somebody comes to encroach upon your property, you kill him immediately. That is said. But not kill unnecessarily. Just like Arjuna was taught, "Kill them. They have insulted your wife, they have encroached upon your property. They must be killed." That is allowed. But you don't be aggressive. So ah─ra-nidr─-bhaya, and sex, sex life. Yes. Just get yourself married and have sex life only for children. Not for other purposes. So k─masya nendriya-pr┤tiḥ. K─ma means we have got some demands of the body. That is called k─ma or lust. So that does not mean that we have to gratify the senses. As far as necessary, we shall utilize it. Nendriya-pr┤tiḥ. Then how to live? Now, k─masya, that satisfaction of the senses should be allowed just to keep myself fit. I must live. Even if I become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must work. So that is allowed. But what is my... What is your main business? J┤vasya tattva-jijï─s─ n─rtho yaś ceha k─rmabhiḥ. Your only business is to understand what you are, what God is, what is this world, what is your relationship. This is your main business. This is your main business. Not that you earn money and employ it for sense gratification, as it is going on in this materialistic way of life. Nobody is inquisitive to know what he is. How can he? Very big businessman or very rich man or so-called advancement, can you say what you are? What is your duty? Nobody can't. So that is the main business, that j┤vasya tattva-jijï─s─ n─rtho yaś ceha k─rmabhiḥ. By your... By the result of your activity... Or your main activity should be inquiring about your spiritual existence. So this should be our inquiry. I think we should stop here. Yes. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda d─s┤? Where is Govinda d─s┤? You take these two fruits, offer, cutting, and distribute pras─da.

Gargamuni: Thank you for chanting Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam.

Prabhup─da: Śr┤mad-bh─gavatam amalaṁ pur─ṇam. You have got Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam. Read very carefully. All these things are already explained there. Cut it into pieces and distribute.

Devotee: Swamiji? Should we read just one chapter a day or...

Prabhup─da: It is very nice if you read one chapter Bh─gavatam daily. It is very nice. You make it a point to read one chapter daily. That is very nice.

Devotee: No more?

Prabhup─da: No, if you can do more, that's all right. Just like I ask everybody to chant 16 rounds. But if you can chant 1600 rounds, then who prohibits you? You can do that. But we should make a regulation of our life, that "So many times I chant. One chapter I shall read. I shall go to the temple at this time." In this way we must have routine work. Then we'll get practiced automatically. Yes. And Gosv─m┤s, the Six Gosv─m┤s, they were following routine work. Even they... S─━khy─-p┗rvaka-n─ma-g─na-natibhiḥ. They were doing regularly counting. Just like you are counting sixteen rounds. Not only chanting in that counting, but they were offering obeisances also by counting, that "Hundred times I shall offer my obeisances." You see? This is regular routine. Yes.

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: Swamiji, can you tell me about what you said, going through the spiritual master, not directly to Kṛṣṇa, through the spiritual master.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: Can you just tell me something about it?

Prabhup─da: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Param─tm─, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative. And if you take help from him, and help within and without... Just like a person going, or a boy going to a school, he's getting training in the school as well as home, both sides. Then his chance is very good. So we have to take bothwise: from inside, from outside. You are doing some things in the service of the Lord. How you'll know that you are doing it properly or improperly? This you will know from the spiritual master. If he says, "It is all right," then it is all right. If he says, "It is not good," then it is not good. Just like the same way. The officer in charge, if he is satisfied (with) your work, that means you have satisfied the government or the supreme company, arranger, with whom you have no direct connection. Yasya pras─d─d bhagavat-pras─do. Therefore it is said that if you satisfy your spiritual master, that means you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. And yasya pras─d─d na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. And if you have not satisfied your spiritual master, then you must know that you are, what is called, there is no certainty about your whereabouts, what you are doing. Na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Therefore, dhy─yan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ vande guroḥ śr┤-caraṇ─ravindam. So spiritual master is necessary and his direction is necessary. That is the system of disciple succession. In the Bhagavad-g┤t─ also, Arjuna is surrendering. He was Kṛṣṇa's friend. Why he surrendered himself, "I am your disciple." You see in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. He had no necessity. He was personal friend, talking, sitting, eating together. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master. So that is the way. There is a system to understand. It is specifically mentioned, śiṣyas te 'ham. "I am your disciple now." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ ś─dhi m─ṁ prapannam. "You kindly instruct me." And then He began teaching Bhagavad-g┤t─. Unless one becomes a śiṣya, or disciple, it is prohibited, not to instruct. Not to inst... That instruction is useless. That is the system. We are instructing in the class because there are few disciples who have taken vow to learn from me. Otherwise, I have no business to teach the public. The public may come. But actual interest is to teach my disciples. But that is secondary. For the public, secondary. But real business is to teach the disciples. Just like Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam was meant for Par┤kṣit Mah─r─ja, Śukadeva Gosv─m┤'s disciple. But there were many others present. They also heard. Yes?

Gargamuni: Well, how can we begin to serve you so that you'll be pleased?

Prabhup─da: (laughs) That I shall tell you later on. (laughter) Do you think I am not pleased?

Gargamuni: I don't know.

Prabhup─da: Oh, you must know it. How can you say that I am not pleased? How you know it that I am not pleased?

Gargamuni: Well, we cause you so much anxiety and everything.

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Gargamuni: We cause you so much anxiety due to our faults.

Prabhup─da: Therefore I am pleased with you. Why I have given up all my anxieties of the sons and daughters who is born from my body, and why I am taking and transferring... (end)


Room Conversation                                      Boston, April 27, 1969                                                              332455

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes. All right. Take. Distribute little. Na tasya k─ryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He is the Lord, but He has nothing to do. He is simply enjoying with His friends, with Radharani, with cowherds boy, with gop┤s. That is greatness. He has nothing to think, "How to provide?" (chuckles) That is greatness. He is taking the cows as a sporting. You see? And when He was called for killing Kaṁsa, He left everything, renounced everything. Aiśvarya samagrasya yaśasaḥ... Everything in full, so much love, so much everything, but at once, in a moment, He renounced everything, went to..., left Vṛnd─vana, and all these devotees, they began to cry for Kṛṣṇa for the rest of life. And whenever Kṛṣṇa was reminded, oh, He will say, "I am very soon coming. Don't worry. I am very soon coming." (chuckles) You see?


Room Conversation                                 May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio                                                      332640

(Break) ...that "This boy hears very nicely. He does not go away," the first impression he gave to other godbrothers. "So I shall make him disciple." These very words he said. Actually I did not follow him in the beginning. High philosophical speaking and I was a new boy. I could not follow him, but actually I was so much glad to hear him. That's all. So that was my qualification, whatever you may say. I was simply asking, "When Guru Mah─r─ja will speak? When he will speak? When?" And I will sit down and go on hearing, and I will understand or not understand--others will disperse--I will not disperse. That he marked. Yes. First. There was first one instance. At that time I was not initiated. There was a circumambulation of whole Vṛnd─vana. So although I was not initiated, I was one of the important members of the... So I thought, "Let me go. What these people are doing, circumambulating all over Vṛnd─vana?" So I went to Mathur─. Then I went to the Vṛnd─vana interior, which place was known as Koṣi. So in that Kosi one of my godbrothers declared that "Prabhup─da is going tomorrow back to Mathur─. So he will speak this evening. So anyone who wants to hear him, they can stay. And others may prepare to..." Sit down.

Pradyumna: Two people just came.

Prabhup─da: Oh. All right.

Pradyumna: Can the boys downstairs bring them?

Prabhup─da: Yes. So they were to go to see some other temple which is called Śeṣay┤ Temple. So although I was new man, I did not like to go to see the Śeṣay┤ Temple. I decided that "I shall hear." So at that time I was new, so all other, some of my important godbrothers, they were sitting like this, and I was sitting. At last, you see. But he knew that "This boy is new." Everyone has gone, all others except a few selected godbrothers. So he marked it that "This boy is interested to hear me." So hearing is very important. Hearing. Just like Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (People entering) (Break) ...because I was serious for hearing, and therefore now I am serious about k┤rtanaṁ, means speaking, or preaching. Do you follow what I say? Yes. So one who is serious about hearing, he can become a future nice preacher. Śravaṇaṁ k┤rtanaṁ. Next stage is developed. That is development. If one has actually heard nicely, then he will speak nicely. Śravaṇaṁ k┤rtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ. Then consciousness will automatically develop because when you speak or you hear, unless your mind is concentrated, your consciousness is right, you cannot rightly hear or speak. Śravaṇaṁ k┤rtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ p─da-sevanam. And then the development, "How I shall serve Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is so loving. Kṛṣṇa is so great," that automatically comes. Not silent, but activity. P─da-sevanam means that activity begins immediately. In this way last item is sarv─tma-snapanaṁ. Sarv─tma, ─tma-samarpaṇam, sarv─tma-samarpaṇam. Bali Mah─r─ja just like. Giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. Then, when Vamanadeva asked, "Now, Bali Mah─r─ja, you have lost everything. Still I have got another leg, another foot, to place." "Yes. There is one thing. It is my head. Come on." So everything is there, and Lord Vamanadeva: "Yes. You have now purchased Me. You have now purchased Me. So I shall remain your doorman here, standing always to give you protection." So Kṛṣṇa became purchased by him, and He remained his doorman. Just see His mercy. Dv─r─. Dv─r┤. Dv─ri means doorman. So by serving Kṛṣṇa, nobody is loser; he is gainer. He is gainer permanently, eternally. We do not know what is the value of that gain now. Because we are materially covered, we think service means just like service in this world. This service is m─y─. Nobody will be satisfied, nobody. You cannot satisfy, neither you will be satisfied. The best example is in your country, that your president, Mr. Kennedy, he gave you the best service, and the result was that you killed him. You or some of your member killed him. That means his service was not appreciated, although he gave his best service. So similarly, in the material world, whatever service you render, that is spoiling time. But you render service to Kṛṣṇa--you will be satisfied, Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, and as Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, everyone will be satisfied. So take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness service by hearing, by speaking, by remembering, by giving actually service, by worshiping, by making friendship, and after all, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now these new boys have come. Let them question and I shall answer. That will be nice. You have heard something about Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So wherefrom these men ...? (indistinct)

Pradyumna: Bhurijana sent them. Bhurijana sent money for tickets to go to Columbus.

Prabhup─da: He has sent the tickets?

Pradyumna: Money.

Prabhup─da: Hm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing, and what is called encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is--that is natural--frustration. There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C.R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing (anything). He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy. So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him--his name was Chittaranjan--"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sanny─s┤ was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar, to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country. So these hippies, they are frustrating. They have given up everything. We can study their psychic movement. They are not satisfied. That is the main principle. That is natural, to accept adversity voluntarily, adversity. So this is frustration. But before reaching to that point of frustration, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you reach the real standard of happiness because everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. I shall give you another example. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody's house or some friends. You will not be happy, even possessing that thing, stolen property. But if someday you come to return that thing to that friend, you will be happy. What do you think, Hayagr┤va?

Hayagr┤va: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Then you will feel relieved. So therefore the real thing is that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are artificially enjoying the stolen property. Therefore if you go on enjoying like that, then this frustration will come. But before coming to that frustration, if we return this property to Kṛṣṇa, then we become happy. So best thing is to return everything to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you will not be a loser. You will be gainer, just like Bali Mah─r─ja. Actually, if you think, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Nothing belongs to you. This is m─y─. Kṛṣṇa's property you are thinking, "mine." Is this land of American belongs to you actually? It is stolen property. You have stolen from the Red Indians or from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is, not you, everyone. Somebody is claiming, "This much my property," somebody is claiming, "This much my property," but this much or that much, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. It is stolen property. There is another example in Indian words, that hira caur┤ kiy─ abhicaurya, kh┤ra cauri kiya abhicaura. Hira means diamond, and khira means... What is that called? Cucumber, a small? So if somebody has stolen a cucumber from other's tree, so he is captured. And another man has stolen some diamond. He is also arrested. So from the police, both are thieves. If the man says, "Oh, what I have stolen? I have stolen a little cucumber. It is nothing, worth not even two cent or one cent. Why you are arresting me? He is thief. He has stolen a big diamond," no, in the eyes of law, he is also thief; he is also thief. Everyone is thief. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is thief. He'll not be happy. The best thing is to return whatever he has possessed: "Kṛṣṇa, it is Yours. Take." Finish business. M─nasa deha geha, yo kichu mora. Bhaktivinoda Öh─kura's song... Now, everything we possess in mind. Actually we don't possess. Suppose I am possessing all this. As soon as I go from this body, all possession will remain here. I'll not take anything. So I don't possess. But in mind I am thinking, "Oh, this is mine. This is mine. Where is another box? Why it is not coming?" And possessing in mind. If I leave this body, either the box here or in the Chicago or anywhere else, what is the difference? There is no difference. But because I am possessing in the mind, "Oh, that box is mine," so I am asking, "Whether it is Chicago or it is here, it is there? Why it is not coming?" So possession in the mind. Actually you don't possess. M─nasa deha geha. So by that supposingly possessing, we have got our mind, we have got our body, then expansion of body, wife, children, family, society, country. In this way we possess so many things. Bhaktivinoda Öh─kura says, m─nasa deha geha, yo kichu mora: "Now whatever I possess, either in the mind or in the family or in the society or in the body--whatever I have got, I surrender unto You, my dear Kṛṣṇa." M─nasa deha geha, yo kichu..., arpilun tu─ pade nanda kiśora: "Nanda-kiśora, O the son of Nanda, I give unto You." Marobi rakhobi, yo icch─ toh─ra: "Now whatever You like, You can do, either you kill me or You protect me, as You like. You are the proprietor. You have right to do everything." This is surrender. This is full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible immediately. Therefore we have to practice. Sad─ tad-bh─va-bh─vitaḥ. And if we die in that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yaṁ yaṁ v─pi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram... In the particular type of consciousness, when one gives up this body, then he is transferred into that position next life. So in this way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we are able, sad─ tad-bh─va-bh─vitaḥ, by practicing always, constantly, that situation of consciousness, then next life, after giving up... Why next life? This life also. One person who is in always Kṛṣṇa's service this life or that life, he is with Kṛṣṇa. He is with Kṛṣṇa. Any person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. I may not understand, but Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So you American boys and girls, you should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. Your position is to take up because you are on the top of the material happiness. Now you take it. You be saved. Otherwise this frustration is coming. That will come. Just like C.R. Das. He, out of that frustration, he gave up everything. He sacrificed his life for political. And what is the value of that sacrifice? You may become a great man of your country in the estimation of your people, but not in the estimation of Kṛṣṇa. You may become a great man in the estimation of your country, but in others' estimation, your enemy, "Oh, this man is dead. Now our enemy is finished. That's nice." So another side there is imperfection. Not everybody is satisfied by your service. But if you serve Kṛṣṇa, everybody is satisfied. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance, nobody will be dissatisfied. At least they will say, "Ah..." Just like in the paper, "The boys are very nice." You see? You have seen. Instead of not very sympathetic, they have remarked this, "Oh, these boys are very nice." At least, people will appreciate, "Oh, these boys are... These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice. They do not smoke. They do not drink. They have no illicit sex life. They do not kill for satisfy the tongue. They are satisfied with natural food. And their behavior is very good." Who will deny it? And the other asset they cannot estimate, that how much he is in contact with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. That, they have no estimating power, but at least they will appreciate these external features. One clergyman, when I was going to Hawaii, he was talking with me. He said, "Swamiji, I have seen your disciples have a very nice face, glowing face." And "Yes, certainly. They must be. They are making spiritual progress." So it is not difficult. It is very easy. If you take to this, you have everything sublime and your life becomes sublime. You haven't got to give up anything. The material needs are there, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is not disallowed, but adjusted for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot allow eating, mating, like animals, cats and dogs. No. That is not possible. You'll eat, you'll mate, but just like human being, civilized man. Then what is the distinction between animal and man if we behave like animals? Kṛṣṇa, God, is pure. So if you keep yourself in impure condition of life, then how you can make progress towards purity, highest perfection, purity? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dh─ma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhav─n. In the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-g┤t─ Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa that "You are the purest of all." If you are going to reach the purest of all, how you can remain impure? This tapasya... This voluntary restraint means tapasya. Tapasya, there is a Sanskrit word, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily restraining or accepting some suffering condition. That is not actually suffering condition. Just like a patient. A doctor says, "You cannot take it." So he has the desire to take it, but doctor says that "you cannot take it." Therefore he mentally thinks that "Doctor has restricted this. I am suffering." Actually he is curing, but he thinks that "I am suffering." And when he's cured, he sees, "Oh, doctor is good friend. He told me not to indulge in this. Now I have done it. I am now cured." So tapasya means voluntarily one has to accept some so-called suffering. That is required to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, voluntarily acceptance, some so-called suffering. Tapaḥ divyaṁ. That suffering is for transcendental realization. That is good. Tapo divyam yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet. Śuddhyet means your existence will be purified. And existence purified means you advance to realize unlimited happiness. What is the disease? Disease means there is limitation of eating, limitation of sleeping. Everything is limited. Limitation of mating. A diseased man cannot have sex life unlimitedly or whatever. There is restriction. A tuberculosis person is completely restricted, "You cannot have sex life." That restriction is for curing him. And the cure means he enjoys--whatever he thinks enjoyment, that is unlimited. Yasm─d brahma-saukhyam anantam. Brahma-saukhyam, eternal happiness, unending happiness. So for acquiring unending, eternal happiness, if you have to accept some voluntary suffering in this life, everyone should do that. So if you ask... You can ask some questions. Adau gurv─śrayam sad-dharma-pṛcch─t. If you go to a person, superior, or spiritual master, then you should ask. You should be inquisitive for better understanding. Sad-dharma-pṛcch─t. Jijï─su. Jijï─su means inquisitive, jijï─suḥ śreya uttamam, inquisitive for higher, happy life. Inquisitiveness. So what is your inquisitiveness?

Guest (1): Would you say something about Christ and his relation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Christ? Jesus Christ?

Prabhup─da: Christ is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. You become like Christ, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Don't you understand Christ, that he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? You don't understand it? Then you become like Christ, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.


K┤rtan─nanda: What was Arjuna's relationship to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhup─da: Friendship. That is also... There are five kinds of relationship. Just like "God is great." That is simply feeling the greatness of God. Then, when he feels exactly how God is great, then naturally there will be an inclination to serve God. That is called servitude. First neutrality estimation... That is called ś─nta-rasa, neutral, no activity but simply appreciating, "God is great," simply appreciation. And then servitude. When the appreciation is complete, "Oh, why not serve God? He is so great. He is giving us so many things. Let me return something. Let me do some service of Him." Servitude. That is further development of the appreciation of the greatness of God. And then further development is friendship. Friendship means... Service means I ask you, "Please give me a glass of water." You give me. And friendship means you are thinking, "How my friend will be... Now he may be wanting a glass of water." So before asking me, if you give me, "I think you may require a glass of water," that is friendship. Friendship means feeling friend's welfare always. Suhṛt. Friendship is not simply chatting. Friendship means thinking, "How my friend will be happy?" This is friendship. Then that friendship, when further developed, that is parenthood. Just like parents, they have no other consideration. They want to see, "How my child will be happy always?" And further development is conjugal love, just like man and woman, male and female, that love. That love includes everything--that appreciation of greatness, that servitude of service, the friendship, then maternal love, and further, offering everything for the lover.


K┤rtan─nanda: Yes, but they are being dictated.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Just like a man in fever talking nonsense. So that is due to fever.

K┤rtan─nanda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are the actions of the j┤va similarly controlled by Kṛṣṇa's superior energy?

Prabhup─da: Yes, certainly.

K┤rtan─nanda: But everything is being controlled ultimately by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

K┤rtan─nanda: Either by inferior energy or superior energy.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Yes.

K┤rtan─nanda: So his activities are never independent, either in Kṛṣṇa or...

Prabhup─da: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by m─y─ always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something m─y─. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is m─y─. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is m─y─. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by this false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me." So this material existence means because he is insane, he is thinking there are so many problems, "The tiger is there. He is attacking me. This, that, so many enemies, friends...," creating so many things. But they are all false. But he is attacked by that false hallucination. That's all. This is m─y─. Everyone is thinking, "Oh, there are so many problems I have to solve. I have to make this, that, this, so many." But he has no problem. He has no problem. His only problem is how to accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He says, "Yes, you accept Me. Simply chant Kṛṣṇa. I am yours. That's all." But my, I am so misfortunate that I cannot chant even. All problems solved simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa. Et─dṛś┤ tava kṛp─ bhagav─n. Caitanya Mah─prabhu teaches that "O Kṛṣṇa, You are so kind that You have come to Me in the sound vibration, word, 'Kṛṣṇa.' I can very easily chant, and You remain with Me. But I am so misfortunate that I have no attraction even for this." You say people, "You chant Kṛṣṇa; you get everything." They will not believe it. If you say, "You press your nose. You pay me fifty dollars. I'll give you some nice mantra and this, that. You make your head like this, leg like this," "Oh," he'll say, "here is something." Something. "And this Swamiji says, 'Simply chant Kṛṣṇa.' Oh, what is this?" Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, et─dṛś┤ tava kṛp─ bhagav─n mam─pi durdaiva: "But I am so unfortunate that You have become so easily available in this age, but I am so unfortunate, I cannot accept it." So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness so easily being distributed, but they are so unfortunate, they cannot accept. Just see. And you give them bluff, you cheat them--they will, "Ah, yes, welcome. Yes." They'll welcome it. And cheaters are always ready: "Oh, there are so many customers for being cheated. Let me take advantage of it." So my Guru Mah─r─ja used to say, "This world is the society of cheaters and cheated." The members are somebody are cheating, and somebody are cheated. The association of cheaters and cheated. So we want to save them from this society of cheaters and cheated.


Room Conversation                                May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio                                                      332844

Prabhup─da: They are very aristocratic family. I do, I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that family, you see? And from the very beginning the Kashi Mallik, they have got nice R─dh─-Kṛṣṇa temple. So I was standing before the deity, and I was seeing, "Oh, He is Kṛṣṇa. Oh, people say He is dead. How he is dead?" Like that I was thinking. And then my, I asked my father, "Oh, I shall worship Kṛṣṇa, give me." So my father gave me R─dh─-Kṛṣṇa, so I, whatever I was eating, I was offering them. So the statement of the ś─stra and my practical experience corroborates. So we we have to take instance like that, you see? S─dhu ś─stra guru v─kya. We have to test everything from three positions: the spiritual master, scripture, and holy man. Scripture means, just like Bible. What is Bible? Scripture. Why the scripture? It is fully contains the instruction of s─dhu, holy man, or spiritual master, Lord Jesus Christ, therefore is scripture. The scripture means the statement of liberated holy man. That is s─dhu. Therefore, scripture should be tested through the holy man and spiritual master. Spiritual master should be tested through scripture and holy man, and holy man should be tested through spiritual master and scripture.

Allen Ginsberg: What is the difference between holy man and spiritual master?

Prabhup─da: No difference, but one has to test whether he is holy man. Then you have to, he has to corroborate with the statement of the scripture. Spiritual master is to be tested whether he is holy man, and whether there is corroboration in the statement of the scriptures. S─dhu ś─stra guru v─kya tinete koriya aikya. Just like the law court, the experienced lawyer's speaking and giving evidence. S─dhu-ś─stra, and the judge is giving judgement, "Here is a statement, here is this lawbook." He has (indistinct). He also testing, the judge is also testing how the lawyer is speaking, and how it is corroborates to the lawbook. So similarly everything has to be tested in that way. The scripture should be consulted, and we should have to see whether it is corroborated. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. He's at once rejected.


Prabhup─da: You remain with us at least for three months and you'll forget your... You remain with us for three months. (laughter) With your associates, you just come to Vṛnd─vana. We shall live together.

Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?

Prabhup─da: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York. There we have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats. But...

Prabhup─da: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.

Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?

Prabhup─da: Four acres.

Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.

Prabhup─da: That I am instructing K┤rtan─nanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.

Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?

K┤rtan─nanda: I hope so.

Prabhup─da: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?

Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat, very fertile, very rich land.

Prabhup─da: Where it is? Which province?

Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet who also is a fellow s─dhana, whose family is from that area for many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such large scale with machines.

K┤rtan─nanda: You can use those machines if you want. If you want to live in the so-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to pursue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food to keep the body healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is plenty.

Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the cow, or would you?

K┤rtan─nanda: On four acres you can do it.

Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow, for...?

Prabhup─da: Fodder. Yes. We grow.

Guest: On food, it depends on what part of the east?

Allen Ginsberg: He's a farmer.

Guest: Whereabouts? What part? Cause a cow has to have about three acres for grazing.

K┤rtan─nanda: So at most five acres. It's in that vicinity.

Allen Ginsberg: See we are interested in this problem of minimizing.

Prabhup─da: So let us cooperate.

Allen Ginsberg: And doing organic farming and minimizing the effort and also the material demands.

K┤rtan─nanda: You can grow sufficient vegetables on a fraction of an acre.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. We had a big vegetable garden this year, too. I've been doing farming... Peter has been doing a great deal of farming.

Hayagr┤va: How are you tilling your land?

Guest: We have a friend who comes out with a plow.

Allen Ginsberg: You're doing it by hand?

K┤rtan─nanda: We just got a horse.

Hayagr┤va: We just got a horse. We had bad experience with a rotary tiller. We got rid of it.

K┤rtan─nanda: West Virginia. We gave it away.

Allen Ginsberg: So we're also going through a coovy(?) ─śrama for poets. A little farm for poets.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Farming, agriculture, that is nice. There is a proverb: agriculture is the noblest profession. Is it not said? Agriculture is noblest, and Kṛṣṇa was farmer, His father.

Allen Ginsberg: The cow.

Prabhup─da: Cow, yes. And in Vedic literature you'll find, a man is... Richness of a man is estimated by the possession of grains and cows. Dhanyena dhanav─n. If he has got sufficient quantity grain, then he's to be... Formerly, even still in India, when a daughter is offered to a family, they will go and see how many morais(?) there are. Grain stock. If he sees that he has five, six, big, big grain stock, then he can... "Oh, this is nice house." You see? "They can feed." So in India still, the arrangement is that every family has got at least two years grain in stock. You see? And cow at least one dozen. No economic problem. And actually, that is the fact. You keep cows and have sufficient grains, whole economic problem solved. Eating. And sleeping, you can take some wood and four pillars. Of course, in your country it is not...

Allen Ginsberg: It's very cold.

Prabhup─da: Very cold. (laughing) India, all the year they are lying on the flat sky.

K┤rtan─nanda: But still, it is very simple. We also experimented with that. You can build a nice shelter very... for ten, fifteen dollars.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, it depends. You see, where we are we're twenty below.

K┤rtan─nanda: Well, we have pretty near that in West Virginia.

Allen Ginsberg: In Minnesota gets thirty, forty, sometimes, below.

K┤rtan─nanda: There has to have sufficient wood sawed up.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Formerly, in Europe they were also living.

Allen Ginsberg: Man lived this way for 20,000 years, 30,000 years until the 19th Century.

Prabhup─da: So we have to live that. Plain living, high thinking. The necessities of this bodily existence, that should be minimized and not unhealthy. Healthy. To keep oneself fit. But the time should be utilized--develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual life. Then his whole problem is solved.


Room Conversation                                    May 12, 1969, Columbus                                                            333099

Prabhup─da: Yes. All are complex. The whole idea is to keep the devotees always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the program. Gradually, we shall introduce more and more so that he has no scope to go outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Allen Ginsberg: Well then the question is...

Prabhup─da: First of all you have to understand that we are trying to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious. So how he can remain twenty-four hours Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is the program.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the orthodox Jews have a very heavy, complicated, moment by moment ritual daily existence in that, for that same purpose. It was to keep them conscious of their religious nature. And that has maintained a small group of Jews over the centuries as an integral unit, but has tended to disappear in the later generations now simply because modern life does not allow that much Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Jewish consciousness or religious consciousness and attention, act by act throughout the day. So my question is how far can total Kṛṣṇa devotion, act by act all day, spread? How many people can that encompass in a place like America? Or are you intending only to get a few devotees, like several hundred or a thousand who will be solid and permanent.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Yes. That is my program. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for everyone. Because in the Bhagavad-g┤t─ we learn, bah┗n─ṁ janman─m ante. After many, many births one can come to this. So it is not possible that a mass of people, a large quantity of people will be able to grasp it. You see? Bah┗n─ṁ janman─m ante jï─nav─n m─ṁ prapadyate. Another place it is said in the Bhagavad-g┤t─, manuṣy─ṇ─ṁ sahasreṣu. After many thousands of men, one may be interested how to liberate himself. And out of many such liberated persons, one may understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So understanding of Kṛṣṇa is not very easy thing. But Lord Caitanya is so munificent that He has given us a, I mean to say, easy process. (indistinct) Otherwise Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not easy. Because Kṛṣṇa is the last word of Absolute Truth. Generally, people are just like animals. Out of many such persons, one becomes interested in the scriptures. And out of many such persons, if they're attracted to the scriptures, they're attracted to the ritualistic ceremony for improving their economic condition. You see? Just like Christians, they go to... Not Christian, everyone. They take up religion with a motive that they may improve their economic position. Dharma, artha. Artha means money. And then why artha? Why you want money? Now, to satisfy senses. K─ma. Dharma, artha, k─ma. And when one becomes frustrated in sense gratification, then liberation, to merge. These four things are going on. Dharma, artha, k─ma. The Bh─gavata says that dharma is not meant for acquiring money. Money is not meant for satisfying senses. Sense gratification should be accepted simply to maintain this body. That's all. The real business is tattva-jijï─s─, to understand. The human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. J┤vasya tattva-jijï─s─ naś ceha yat karmabhiḥ. K─masya nendriya-pritir labho j┤veta y─vat─. K─masya, sense gratification, does not mean you have to increase the volume of sense gratification. No. J┤veta y─vat─, you have to accept sense gratification so far as you can live very nicely. The real business is j┤vasya tattva-jijï─s─. Every human being should be inquisitive to know the Absolute Truth. That is the real business of human life. So to come to that business, you won't find mass of people. It is not possible. You don't expect.

Allen Ginsberg: Your plan here in America, then, is to set up centers so that those who are that concerned can pursue their studies and practice a ritual?

Prabhup─da: My... Personally, I have no, I mean to say, ideal or ambition.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.

Prabhup─da: But it is the mission of human life to come to that point. So at least there must be some center or institution who may give them this idea. It is not that everyone will come. Just like there are many educational department. I know in Calcutta in our boyhood age, at that time Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee was vice-president. So he opened some classes in the university. In each class there were four or five professors, and at that time the professors' salary was 1300 dollar, 1400 dollar. And the fees were collected, at most thirty-six dollar per month. You see? But still the classes were to be maintained because the ideal must be there. So our mission is the intelligent persons of the world may know that this is not, simply seeking after sense gratification is not the aim of human life. Human life is meant by... Just like Bh─gavata says, j┤vasya tattva-jijnasa. Ved─nta says, ath─to brahma-jijï─s─. The same thing. Bh─gavata is nothing but explanation of Ved─nta. So Ved─nta says that this human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman. Atha ataḥ. Now. Atha means now. Atha, hereafter. That means after passing through all animalistic way of life, when a man comes to the stage of civilized life, perfect civilized life, at that time his business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, what is the Absolute Truth. That is the whole Ved─nta philosophy, "What is that Absolute Truth?" The same thing is explained in Bh─gavata, j┤vasya tattva-jijï─sa. J┤vasya means all living entities. The main business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. So people, by education they are misled. Instead of getting them to the highest topmost stage, to the platform of inquiring about the Absolute, they are giving facilities how you can satisfy your senses nicely.

Allen Ginsberg: O.K., but now in America there is a bankruptcy of sense satisfaction. Everybody agrees.

Prabhup─da: Must be there. Must be there.

Allen Ginsberg: Everybody agrees that our civilization has come to the end of its possibilities materially. So everybody understands that. It's in New York Times editorials as well as in the editorials of ISKCON journals. Both. And there is a population explosion as you've noted and as the middle class has noted. So everybody then is looking for an alternative to material extension.

Prabhup─da: They should inquire about the Absolute Truth.

Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my original question was: is the complicated ritual and the Sanskrit language...

Prabhup─da: No, no. Now we are placing so many things in English language. Our all books are being published in English. Our magazine is in English.

Allen Ginsberg: But the question is, is the mode of life that you are proposing adaptable to many, many, many people?

Prabhup─da: That I say that is not for many, many people.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But there are, there is a thirst by many, many people for an alternative answer. For a better alternative system.

Prabhup─da: Yes. So if they are actually thirsty, if they are actually thirsty, then they can adopt this. What is the difficulty there? There is no difficulty. So many American boys they have already adopted. They are not feeling any difficulty. They are feeling relief. What is difficulty? In what point it is difficult? Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting you are chanting.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhup─da: It is all in Sanskrit. What difficulty you are feeling?

Allen Ginsberg: I don't feel too much difficulty, except aesthetically I do feel a difficulty. Yes, there is. The difficulty I feel is that there should be some flower of the American language to communicate in rather than...

Prabhup─da: Therefore we are seeking your help.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Well I haven't found a way, I still just stay chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhup─da: Therefore why I have come to you? That is also my view. I have come to America with this view, that America is on the summit of material civilization. They are not poverty-stricken. You see? And they are seeking after something. Therefore I have come, that "You take this, you'll be happy." That is my mission. And if the Americans take, then all other countries will take because America is leading at the present moment. So persons, exalted persons like you, you try to understand. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, anyone can chant. Even the child is trying. There is no difficulty. And so far what is our modes of living?

Allen Ginsberg: Mere chanting without the practice of a philosophy and a daily ritual...

Prabhup─da: Philosophy is there. We are teaching Bhagavad-g┤t─. We are talking on Bh─gavata philosophy, we are talking on Caitanya's philosophy.

Allen Ginsberg: And you have a daily ritual.

Prabhup─da: We are distributing papers. And... Everything is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my question then, as it was originally when you first asked me, what do I think...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Is the Caitanya-Kṛṣṇa ritual, as you have it here in this house and in the other ─śramas, is that something that a large mass of people can enter into?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Why not?

Allen Ginsberg: In America?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Because we have seen. All my students are Americans. So it has to be... And it is spreading.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but what it requires is an adaptation of Indian dress and an adaptation...

Prabhup─da: That is not very important.

Allen Ginsberg: And an adaptation to Indian food.

Prabhup─da: No, no. Indian food... It is not Indian food. Are you not eating fruits?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, yes.

Prabhup─da: Then that is Indian food? Do you mean to say it is Indian food?

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the curries.

Prabhup─da: Curries you may boil only. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you have to take our taste. No. That is not the program, that to become Kṛṣṇa conscious you have to change your taste. No. We say from the Bhagavad-g┤t─... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ

toyaṁ yo me bhakty─ prayacchati. "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion these vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, I accept that." But we are going to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are selecting foodstuff from this group. That you are all already accepting. Don't you take vegetables? Don't you take fruits? Don't you take grains? So where is the new item? Now, so far cooking, you can cook in your own taste. But the group must be this. Not meat. Because Kṛṣṇa does not say. That is our program. So you are already taking grains, you are eating fruits, you are drinking milk. So where is the difference? I don't find any difference.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, I suppose not. You could say there is no difference because the food is basically the same materially. It's just a question of the style.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Now you take... Style may be different. That's all right. Besides that, to maintain your body and soul together, you require eating, you require sleeping, you require mating, you require defense. We don't say that you don't do this. Kṛṣṇa was... Arjuna was defending. Rather, he wanted to be nonviolent. "Oh, what is the use of fighting?" Kṛṣṇa said, "No. It is required. You should." So where is the difference? There is no difference. Simply we are adjusting things so that you may become happy. Any intelligent man will take it. We are not prohibiting, but we are adjusting. So there is no difficulty. Simply intelligent persons like you should try to understand and take it and administer because your country is wanting this.

Allen Ginsberg: But there is a limit to how much the pronunciation of Kṛṣṇa will spread I think. There's a limit.

Prabhup─da: Hm? No limit. You can pronounce in any way Kṛṣṇa. K-r-i-s-h-n-a. That's all. Any way. Niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na k─laḥ.

Allen Ginsberg: The limit is people's prejudice...

Prabhup─da: So we don't say that why you are chanting Kṛṣṇa like this? We never say that. We simply say, please try to chant Kṛṣṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: Or let us say there would be a limit until the word Kṛṣṇa became as common in English as any other English word.

Prabhup─da: It is already in the dictionary. It is already in the dictionary. All dictionaries you will find Kṛṣṇa. What do you want more?

Allen Ginsberg: Something that will not disturb truckdrivers.

Lady (Indian): They can say Christ, they can say Kṛṣṇa. It is same.

Allen Ginsberg: That is true... True. But they don't say Christ. (laughs)

Prabhup─da: Now Krist... I have read one book, Aquarian...

K┤rtan─nanda: Aquarian Gospel?

Prabhup─da: Gospel, yes. In there it is explained that Krist means love. Christ means love. And Kṛṣṇa also means love. So there from Kṛṣṇa this word Krist has come. And in India somebody says Kristha. Instead of Kṛṣṇa, they say Kristha.

Allen Ginsberg: Where?

Prabhup─da: And in apa-bhraṁśa, has come Kestha. Generally they talk, instead of pronouncing very nicely Kṛṣṇa... Somebody's name is Kṛṣṇachandra. "Hey, Kesthara."

Allen Ginsberg: Where is this?

Prabhup─da: In India everywhere. Kestha. So Kestha, Kristha or Kṛṣṇa, they're on the same group, aiming the same group. It is not difficult.


Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg       Columbus, Ohio, May 13, 1969                                              333527

Prabhup─da: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.

Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there.

Prabhup─da: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.

Guest (1): Vidy─pati.

Prabhup─da: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them.

Allen Ginsberg: According to the Aquarian Gospel, Christ was in Jagann─tha Pur┤?

Prabhup─da: Yes. And he saw Ratha-y─tr─, and there is, name of Kṛṣṇa is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Ratha-y─tr─.

Prabhup─da: Ratha-y─tr─, as we are performing, San Francisco. So Lord Jesus Christ saw.                            


Nature's law is that you grow your own food.


You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. Not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."´Just in the beginning Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." That is the beginning of religious life. The animal killers cannot understand what is God. It is not possible. There is a statement in the Bh─gavata, viṇa paśughnat..."Who can remain aloof from the chanting of the holy name of God unless he's an animal killer?" Yes. Animal killers cannot understand what is God, what is God's name. That's not possible. (pause) Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of killing animal, He was embracing animal every morning, every... Yes. He was embracing.


This has killed the whole Hindu society or the san─tana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge.


We cannot pay anything but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms´But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good because the payment means he is serving the money. He is not serving the cause.


According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned br─hmaṇas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and br─hmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see´And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned br─hmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is.


And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or br─hmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as ś┗dra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all.


So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient.

So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers´And if people follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle.









To revive social structure is our very serious mission.
































Morning Walk                                           September 3, 1969, Hamburg                                                      334233

Guest (1): But I think for the people it is difficult to understand.

Prabhup─da: Because they are fools. How they can understand? (laughter) Simply fools eating meat and becoming like a tiger and dog. That's all. What...? Tiger may be very strong, but what brain he has got? No brain. (laughs) For brain, there must be a br─hmaṇa. Satya śama dama titikṣa. He must be qualified. A tiger may attack me and kill me. He is very strong. But that does not mean he has got better brain than me.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, I see.

Prabhup─da: So the modern civilization is making tigers, how he can be bodily strong and kill others, and discover atomic bomb. They are busy only on these things. The dog's business, how to attack another dog. That's all.

Prabhup─da: The animals, they are living in their own atmosphere, and these people, they come to kill them. Killing business has become very prominent at the present moment, and therefore they are being killed in the womb of the mother, abortion and killing child. That they do not know. Nature will not excuse you. You are killing; you'll be killed within your mothers' womb. You'll never see the light of the sun. You go on being killed, one after another, as many animals you have killed. They do not know. And time will come in this age when there will be no food and man will kill man and eat. That time is coming. Yes. They are now killing animal, but animal lives on this grass and grains. When there will be no grass, no grains, where they will get animal? They'll kill their own son and eat. That time is coming. Nature's law is that you grow your own food. But they are not interested in growing food. They are interested in manufacturing bolts and nuts.

Guest (1): Manufacturing?

Prabhup─da: Bolts and nuts.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes. I see.

Prabhup─da: Factory, big, big factory. So they will have to eat bolt and nuts. Where they will get food grains? They thought that "Let us eat the animal and manufacture bolts and nuts." Then when the animal will be finished, then what they will eat?

Satsvar┗pa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried.

Prabhup─da: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food mean bolt and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supplied. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artifical butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket. (German translation).

Prabhup─da: And they do not see the natural dog is barking. Artificial, they pay ten dollars ticket and see how a man is barking like a dog. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. This is not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."

Guest (1): Ahiṁs─.

Prabhup─da: Just in the beginning Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." That is the beginning of religious life. The animal killers cannot understand what is God. It is not possible. There is a statement in the Bh─gavata, viṇa paśughnat.

nivṛtta tarṣair upag┤yam─n─d

bhavauṣadh─c chrotra-mano-'bhir─m─t

ka uttamaśloka guṇ─nuv─d─t

pum─n virajyeta vin─ paśughn─t

"Who can remain aloof from the chanting of the holy name of God unless he's an animal killer?" Yes. Animal killers cannot understand what is God, what is God's name. That's not possible. (pause) Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of killing animal, He was embracing animal every morning, every... Yes. He was embracing.

Haṁsad┗ta: But Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhup─da: Don't come near. (German translation)

Guest (1): And also the holy Francis of Assisi was in relation with all animals in the Christian tradition.

Prabhup─da: In Christian tradition there is everything nice, but nobody's following. That is the difficulty. (break) ... portion of the road is not paved like this. Bhagavad-g┤t─, it is said, ann─d bhavanti bh┗t─ni. Both the man and animals will live prosperously when there is sufficient foodgrain. (break) anna-sambhavaḥ. If there is sufficient rainfall, the production of foodgrains will be very easy. And yajï─d bhavati parjanyaḥ. And if you satisfy the Lord by performing yajïa, then there will be sufficient rain. And yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. And our activities should be only to perform yajïa, to satisfy the Lord.

Guest (1): But Sanskrit word for..., yajïa?

Haṁsad┗ta: Yajïa, sacrifice.

Guest (1): Yeah, yajïa.

Prabhup─da: Yajïa means to satisfy the Lord. Just like glorifying the Lord, that is also yajïa. Sa━k┤rtana-yajïa. Yajïa means to satisfy the Lord. Do it anyway and there will be no scarcity. Everything will be all right. Ann─d bhavanti bh┗...

ann─d bhavanti bh┗t─ni

parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïad bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

Guest (1): So sacrifice are we self, or ourself. That means sacrifice to the Lord.

Prabhup─da: Sacrifice, there are different description of sacrifice. Just like one of the sacrifice is this chanting of the holy name of God. Yes. There are other sacrifices, offering in the fire butter, grains. That is also sacrifice. But in this age, these things are almost not available. Therefore chant the holy name. This sacrifice is recommended. It does not cost anything. Simply God has given you the tongue, and you chant. Any poor man can do it. (pause) (break) ...excursion? No?

Haṁsad┗ta: Cultured excursion.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Weekly and planned.

Guest (2) (French man): There is regularly p┗j─ in your community?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Here also, there is temple. There is regular p┗j─, six times.

Guest (2): Offering light...

Prabhup─da: Light, food, everything. Dress, bathing, so many things. If you receive me, you must give me something eatable. Simply light, how can I be satisfied? (laughter) If you give me simply light and no food then how can I be satisfied? Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhakty─ prayacchati, tad ahaṁ aṣn─mi. "I will eat." (break)


Room Conversation                           September 11, 1969, London (Tittenhurst)                                         334386

Prabhupada: That you have to become a serious student.

Yoko Ono: Well, I mean, what do you mean by serious student? Maybe everybody, all of us are serious anyway. I mean, we're born serious or born, you know, unserious.

Prabhup─da: Then you must know what is distinction between Brahman, Param─tm─, and Bhagav─n, if you are serious student.

Yoko Ono: But does it depend on knowledge? I mean, the final judgement that you make?

Prabhup─da: Everything depends on knowledge. Without knowledge how can we make progress? Student means to acquire knowledge. Serious student means to acquire knowledge.

Yoko Ono: But not always the knowledgeable one are the ones who...

Prabhup─da: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Av─━ m─nasa gocaraḥ. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Param─tm─, and Bhagav─n. These are the statements of Bh─gavata. Brahmeti param─tmeti bhagav─n iti śabdyate. It is... Śabdyate means sounded as Bhagav─n, Param─tm─, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Param─tm─ knowledge, and Bhagav─n knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green. And if you enter into that hill you'll see, oh, there are so many varieties. There are animals, there are men, there are trees. But from the distant, you'll see just like a cloud. So although the same thing... Similarly, Absolute, when visioned from the Brahman point of view, it is just like cloud. Absolute when visioned as Param─tm─, it is just like something green. And Absolute when realized as the Supreme Person, it is just like you enter into the hill and see everything in detail. So although the focus is the same, the Brahmav─d┤ and the Param─tm─vad┤ and the devotee's focus is the same, but due to their respective position the realization is different. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. Therefore Bhagavad-g┤t─ you'll see,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matv─ bhajante m─ṁ

budh─ bh─va-samanvit─ḥ

"I am the source of everything." This sarvaṁ means Param─tm─, Brahman, everything. These are clearly stated. Brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭh─. So Brahman knowledge or Param─tm─ knowledge is within Kṛṣṇa knowledge. If one has got Kṛṣṇa knowledge he has got Param─tm─ knowledge, Brahman knowledge. He has got the effect of yogic principle, meditation, he has got the effect of empiric philosophical speculation, and he is situated personally in the service of the Lord. So if you make comparative study, then this Kṛṣṇa knowledge includes all knowledge. The Vedas also confirm it, yasmin sarvam evaṁ vijï─tam bhavati. If you understand the Supreme, then all knowledge becomes automatically revealed. Yasmin vijï─te sarvam evaṁ vijï─tam bhavanti. And in the Bhagavad-g┤t─ also it is stated, "Knowing this, you'll have nothing to know anymore." In the ninth chapter there is. So first of all we have to seriously study. Therefore I'm asking that to become serious student, what is the difference between Brahman, Param─tm─, and Bhagav─n? Param─tm─ is localized aspect of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bh┗t─n─ṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. And Brahman is the effulgence of the Absolute. And Parambrahma, or Bhagav─n, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Kṛṣṇa. So if you have full Kṛṣṇa knowledge, then you have got Brahman knowledge and Param─tm─ knowledge. But if you have got simply Brahman knowledge or Param─tm─ knowledge, you have no Kṛṣṇa knowledge. The same example can be... If you are in the sunshine, then you do not know what is sun globe and the predominating deity in the sun. But if you are by the side of the sun deity, you know what is sun globe and what is sunshine. Therefore impartially it is recommended that one should know the science of the Absolute Truth, or Kṛṣṇa. That will include all other knowledge. Bah┗n─ṁ janman─m ante jï─nav─n m─ṁ prapadyate. This is also a verse from Bhagavad-g┤t─. Kṛṣṇa says, "After many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when one is actually wise, jï─nav─n..." Jï─nav─n means has attained wisdom. Bah┗n─ṁ janman─m ante jï─nav─n m─ṁ prapadyate: "He surrenders unto Me." Why? V─sudevaḥ sarvam iti: "He understands, 'Oh, V─sudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything.' " Sa mah─tm─ sudurlabhaḥ: "Such great soul is very rare." And in the tenth chapter,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matv─ bhajante m─ṁ

budh─ bhav─-samanvit─ḥ

"I am the origin. I am the source of everything. Everything emanates from Me. One who kows this science perfectly, he is budh─, he is intelligent, and he becomes engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." And the Ved─nta-s┗tra also, the first aphorism is ath─to brahma-jijï─s─: "Now it is the time for inquiry about the Absolute, Brahman." So what is Brahman? The next aphorism is janm─dy asya yataḥ: "Brahman, the Absolute, is that from whom everything is coming, emanating." That Absolute is personally saying, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "Everything is emanating from Me." So if you study Vedic literature very scrutinizingly, then you come to this conclusion, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness will include all other knowledge. Just like if you have got million dollar, ten dollar is included, five hundred dollar is included, thousand dollar is included. But one who has got ten dollar or five hundred dollar, he cannot claim that he has got million dollar. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa science means full spiritual knowledge. That is accepted by the ─c─ryas.

Room Conversation                                    December 12, 1970, Indore                                                         335228

Prabhup─da: For young man, the more he sleeps, he is dead. He's a dead body. A child, if he overeats, if he overeats, then it is not bad for him. So anyone overeats, it is bad, specially for old man. And if child gets diarrhea, it is good for him. When a old man gets diarrhea, it is death for him. Child gets diarrhea means whatever poisons he has acquired he gets out. His health becomes renovated. And old man, if he gets diarrhea, he loses his vitality. Chele hange bastre guru hage mostre.(?)


Prabhup─da: Oh. So we were talking of Ajamila, a br─hmaṇa resident of K─nyakubja, presently known as Kanauj. So, k─nyakubje dvijaḥ kaścid asit patir..., asit kaścid d─s┤-patir aj─milaḥ, n─mn─ naṣṭa-sad─c─ro d─syaḥ saṁsarga-d┗ṣitaḥ. That, what is known as, at the present, prostitute, they were know as d─sya, d─s┤. (aside:) Don't make sound, "cut, cut." Silent. D─s┤... The kṣatriya kings also, when they married, with dowry many maidservants would follow the queen. That was the kṣatriya system. So Ajamila was the illegal husband of a prostitute, d─s┤, d─s┤-pati. Actually one should be husband of dharma-pati, religiously married, not a friend or a husband of illegal marriage. That is not allowed. D─s┤-patir aj─milaḥ n─mn─... Aj─mila n─mn─. His name was Aj─mila. Why the sound is in...? It is not possible to charge? "Cut, cut cut, cut." Naṣṭa-sad─c─raḥ. Sad─c─ra means good behavior. Why good behavior was lost? D─syaḥ saṁsarga-d┗ṣitaḥ. Because he was associating with a prostitute, illegal sex. Therefore, anyone who wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must be sad─c─ra. His behavior must be very regulated. Asad─c─r┤, unclean, nonregulated, cannot make any progress. If somebody says that "Whatever you like, you can do. There is no difference. You can imagine your own way..." This is going on nowadays. "Whatever you like, you can do. You can imagine your own way of self-realization." But that is not recommended in the Vedic literatures. One must be sad─c─ra. This is the beginning of sad─c─ra, to rise early in the morning, to cleanse, then chant, or chant the Vedic mantras or, simplified as in the present age, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mah─-mantra. This is the beginning of sad─c─ra. So sad─c─ra means to become freed from sinful reaction. Unless one follows the regulative principles he cannot be freed. And unless one is fully freed from sinful reaction he cannot understand what is God. Those who are not in sad─c─ra, regulative principles, for them... Just like animals, they are not expected to follow any... Of course, by nature they follow regulative principles. Still, but human being, having advanced consciousness, so instead of using it properly, they misuse the advanced consciousness and thus they become lower than animals. The animals, for want of advanced consciousness, cannot follow any regulative principles. But by nature they have got some regulative principle. A human being, advanced consciousness, instead of using it for advance in spiritual life they use it for sense gratification and thus they become lower than the animals.

So as soon as one becomes irregulated, without any sad─c─ra, then he doesn't care for any sinful activities for maintaining his body and soul together. He doesn't mind. Their philosophy is, what is called? "Existence is the first law of nature," or something like...

Guest (1): Self-preservation.

Prabhup─da: Self-preservation. So self-preservation... They do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible. If you want to advance in spiritual life you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-g┤t─ says, yeṣ─ṁ anta gataṁ p─paṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction," yeṣ─ṁ tv anta-gataṁ p─paṁ jan─n─ṁ puṇya-karmaṇ─m, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmukt─... This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion? Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity--if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self--what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on. No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, ─sana, praṇ─y─ma--the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help. The first two steps are yama, niyama, then ─sana, then praṇ─y─ma, then praty─h─ra, then dhy─na, then dh─raṇ─, then sam─dhi. These are explained in the yogic ś─stra or Bhagavad-g┤t─. So this man, although born of a br─hmaṇa father... Now, here it is said that naṣṭa-sad─c─ra. Although he is born of a br─hmaṇa father, his ─c─ra, his dealings for advancing in spiritual life...A br─hmaṇa is expected to be truthful, to be self-controlled, to be fully cognizant of spiritual life, practical application in life, jï─nam, vijï─nam, ─stikyam, to have complete faith in the statement of the ś─stras. That is... That is called ─stikyam.We, according to our Vedic system, we do not accept any other system of religion because we consider them n─stika. That is the primary principle. N─stika means one who does not believe in the Vedas. He is called n─stika. Not that he does not believe in God. One may believe in God, but one who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is called n─stika. Veda na man┤y─ bauddha haila n─stika. Lord Buddha, although he is accepted as incarnation of God, but because he defied the Vedic principles it is said, nindasi yajïa-vidher ahaha śruti-j─taṁ. Lord Buddha criticized the, I mean to say, sacrificial ceremonies because in the sacrificial ceremonies sometimes there is recommendation of killing an animal. But he was preaching nonviolence. So he criticized even the sacrifice in yajïa. He criticized. Nindasi... But a Vaiṣṇava is praying, "My dear Lord, you are defying the Vedic principles." He knows why the Lord is now defying the Vedic principles; therefore he is devotee. In spite of Lord Buddha's defying the Vedic principles, a devotee is offering him obeisances. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śar┤ra jaya jagad┤śa hare. He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men. The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says, "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-gh─tam. The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of... At least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes?

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhup─da: (Hindi) Muhammad, he also did not believe in the Vedic literature. But according to Vedic literature, anyone who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is n─stika. Just like the Mohammedans, they say, "Anyone who does not believe in Koran, he is kafir." The Christians say, "Anyone who does not believe in the Bible, they are heathens." That is there everywhere. Similarly, Lord Caitanya said that veda na man┤y─ bauddha haila n─stika. He is giving the definition because we have to follow the great personalities, great ─c─ryas. That is our process. We do not make any research, or we do not make any statement made by us. We simply accept the injunctions given by great ─c─ryas. Āc─ryop─sanam. That is the process of Vedic system. Tad-vijï─n─rthaṁ sa gurum ev─bhigacchet. One must approach a spiritual master and learn from him. So whatever spiritual master says, that is accepted. S─dhu guru ś─stra v─kya. Real evidence is, it must be stated in the scriptures, it must be explained by the spiritual master or saintly persons. That is evidence.

Guest (3): Śastra-v─kya-pram─ṇa.

Prabhup─da: Ś─stra-v─kya-pram─ṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-g┤t─ is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, païca-p─ṇ┛ava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-g┤t─ as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnan─rtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that k─nyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a br─hmaṇa family.Janman─ j─yate ś┗draḥ. Everyone is born a ś┗dra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of ś┗dra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is ś┗dra. We also generally say, gad─h, less intelligent. So br─hmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Br─hmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third-class. And ś┗dra means fourth-class. And less than ś┗dra, they are called païcama, caṇ┛─la. They are accepted as animals, those who are less than ś┗dras. This is the Vedic system. Now, here it is said that this Ajamila, dvija... Dvija means he was properly initiated, second birth. First birth by father, mother, is ś┗dra. Anyone, even if he is born in a br─hmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as ś┗dra. But if there is garbh─dh─na-saṁsk─ra, then he's accepted as born br─hmaṇa, born br─hmaṇa. Still, one is born br─hmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁsk─ras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called san─tana-dharma or varṇ─śrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa--br─hmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, ś┗dra--and four divisions of spiritual life--brahmac─r┤, gṛhastha, v─naprastha, and sanny─sa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇ─śrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha ─śrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word ─śrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division--brahmac─r┤, gṛhastha, v─naprastha, and sanny─sa--they are known as ─śrama. Anyone can understand ─śrama. As soon as there is ─śrama that means "Here some men, saintly persons, spiritually advanced persons, lives." That is ─śrama. So that ─śrama, when a student follows the regulative principles, he is supposed to be situated in brahmac─r┤ ─śrama. A householder living with family, husband, wife, children, if they are following strictly the regulative principles--gṛhastha ─śrama. Similarly, retired life, if he is following the regulative principles--the v─naprastha ─śrama. Similarly, a renounced life, sanny─sa, if he is following the regulative principles, that is sanny─sa ─śrama. Not that imitating somebody, I put on a saffron dress and I become a sanny─s┤ and by begging I live. This has killed the whole Hindu society or the san─tana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge.


Therefore in this age the only method... It is a concession to the fallen people of this world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. They 'll not be able to follow all the regulative principles; therefore they must commit all kinds of abominable activities. Under the circumstances the ś─stra or God has given a concession that you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and gradually you will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life. Other things you cannot follow. You are already fallen. So you take to this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense. And in order to save yourself from the offenses, a little austerity that you cannot have illicit sex life. Why should you have illicit sex life? Everyone's need is sex life. Āh─ra-nidr─-bhaya-maithunam. These are the bodily needs. So ś─stra has sanctioned, "All right. You can live peacefully by married life and have sex life for children, good children." That is allowed. But why should you have illicit sex life? What is this? Irresponsible life. "I shall not take responsibility of family life, and I shall go on as so-called bachelor and have illicit life." But that is not good. That is garhit─ṁ. Na s─dhu m─nye: "This is not good." This is the advice of Vedic literature. Ultimately you'll suffer. You are thinking at the present moment that you are avoiding suffering because family life is very responsible life. So if you think that family life is responsible, yes, it is responsible life. If you don't take, if you cannot take the responsibility, then remain as a brahmac─r┤. Why should you marry? Yes. If you practice brahm─c─rya, then you become free, seventy-five percent freedom immediately. But you do not want to undergo the austerities of a brahmac─r┤, and still, you want to remain as an unmarried man. Everywhere in the world it is going on. This is increasing. That is stated here, sad─c─ra. Naṣṭa-sad─c─ro d─sy─ḥ saṁsarga-d┗ṣitaḥ. The illicit connection with man and woman will certainly make him abominable, fallen down to this abominable life. I... When I was... In my younger days, when I was in business, so I was to take agency one of big company, Smith's Transit Company. So they had to... I had to give some guarantee of my honesty. So in that program the question was whether married or unmarried. Because unmarried man mostly become dishonest. So that inquiry was there, "Whether he is married?" Married man cannot be dishonest because he has got responsibility. If he is arrested he will be insulted in his family. His family members will be in difficulty. Therefore he does not commit dishonesty very easily unless it is absolutely... But that should not be done. But unmarried man, because he has got no responsibility, he commits all kinds of sinful activity. That's a fact. Therefore in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we do not allow such illicit sex life, no. You must get yourself married. And practically, we are seeing, that is very effective and that is going on nicely. All right.


Guest (4): Yes. Yes. Mah─r─ja, I am a teacher of Sanskrit and English in one of the higher secondary schools here and I am very much interested...

Prabhup─da: So you join us. Simply lip sympathy will not do. Just like these boys and girls, they have joined wholeheartedly. So I do not find any Indians.

Guest (4): I am ready to join but for my family liabilities. Is there is some...?

Prabhup─da: So you can join. You are family man, so it is not that we have no family men. We have got many family men. Now, they are all family. These girls, they have got a husband. And some of them, they are living separately. Just like one of my students, Professor Howard Wheeler. He is married man. He is living separately. Not separately. He is also conducting our, one establishment, New Vrindaban. So it is not that one has to live with us. He can live separately also, but his whole life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.

Guest (4): I would like to live with you and tour with you.

Prabhup─da: So why not come and live and tour with me? Who forbids you? But it is not possible to pay anything for your family expenditure. That is difficulty. We cannot pay anything but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms. In that case it is not possible to pay something. There is... (break) It is selling all over Europe. (Hindi)

Guest (4): Mah─r─ja, could you employ me in some...?

Prabhup─da: Yes, employ, I can employ in any way. But there is no payment.

Guest (4): I am M.A. in English, M.A. in Hindi. I am trying to devote myself to this work...

Prabhup─da: So please come.

Guest (4): But for my family liabilities...

Prabhup─da: What amount you want for your family, minimum?

Guest (4): Five hundred a month.

Prabhup─da: That is not possible. Yes, you require five hundred. I know that. That is not much. To maintain a family nowadays five hundred rupees is not much but where is the money? How can I pay you?

Guest (4): I would be a very good asset to your publications work.

Prabhup─da: That I know. You are qualified, educated boy. You can do it. But one thing I can do, that you can live with your family just like they are living. That I can arrange. And whatever food we can provide you have to accept. We can... We can arrange for the education of your children also, everything. But we cannot pay anything. That is not possible. We can take charge of the husband and wife. We can take charge of your children. But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good because the payment means he is serving the money. He is not serving the cause.

(tape of k┤rtana plays for a second)

Guest (4): His old mother listens to these chantings. (break)

Prabhup─da: No, no, he has appeared to establish dharma. So what is the dharma according...

Guest (4): Ś─stra-dharma. Ś─stra means Ārya-sam─j┤-pratiṣṭh─...

Prabhup─da: So what is that ś─stra veda dharma?

Guest (4): Vedic dharma.

Prabhup─da: So what is that? Explain it practically.

Guest (4): Yama, niyama, sam─dhi, dhy─na...

Prabhup─da: No, that is the process. So what is the end of dharma?

Guest (4): Self-realization.

Prabhup─da: What is that self?

Guest (4): That is to be realized. (laughter)

Prabhup─da: This is going on. One has no idea what is dharma, what is the end, but he becomes, "Oh, I have appeared for establishing dharma." And when he is asked, "What is that dharma?" "It is to be realized." Then what you have realized that you are preaching dharma?

Guest (4): Sad─c─ra...

Prabhup─da: Sad─c─ra is the means. Sad─c─ra is not the end.

Guest (4): Can I know as to what made these young people want to leave the affluent present society and join this...

Prabhup─da: Because they are sincere, seeking after...

Guest (4): Pardon, sir?

Prabhup─da: They are sincere, sincerely seeking after. Their material business is finished because they have enjoyed enough of material things. Now there is spiritual inquiry. That is natural. When our material necessities are complete, we enjoy, then next stage is spiritual hankering. And that is explained in the Ved─nta-s┗tra, ath─to brahma-jijï─s─. After finishing karma-k─ṇ┛┤ya life... Karma-k─ṇ┛┤ya life means you do pious activities and enjoy life. That is called karma-k─ṇ┛┤ya. So... But the fact is that even you get your birth in a very rich family, you cannot avoid the sufferings of this material nature. Just like yesterday we had an interview with Holkar(?), His Highness Holkar, the old gentleman. So he was a king. He has got very beautiful wife, very beautiful family, very palatial building, but he is not happy, we saw. So the foolish people, they do not know that in this material life there is no happiness. They hanker after these palatial buildings, the motor cars, the bank balance, and so on, so on. Therefore those who have enjoyed all these things but have not become happy, there is another inquiry: "How to become happy?" (break) ...say America, they have enjoyed material life. Their children have enjoyed material life to the fullest extent but they are not happy. Therefore they have come to this spiritual life.


So Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person, what he has read G┤t─? He is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply has labored. That's all. That is the test. Don't you agree to this point? So anyone who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has no knowledge of G┤t─. He immediately becomes foolish. That is our test. So Muktananda, what do you think?

Muktananda: Yes, Prabhup─da.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is the test, whether he has understood. In the Seventh Chapter,

mayy ─sakta-man─ḥ p─rtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-─śrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ m─ṁ

yath─ jï─syasi tac chṛṇu

"Anyone... How one simply by concentrating his mind upon Me," mayy ─sakta, "with ─sakti..." Āsakti means attachment, love. Mayy ─sakta-man─ḥ. Mind attached to Kṛṣṇa in love. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-─śrayaḥ. And performing the bhakti-yoga, mad-─śrayaḥ, under the disciplinary action by a bona fide spiritual master, mad-─śrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ m─ṁ: "Then he can understand without any doubt and fully what I am." That means one who has not understood Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has not found the yoga properly. And why? That is mad-─śrayaḥ, he does not follow the disciplic succession. Mad ─śrayaḥ. And in the beginning, in Fourth Chapter it is said, evaṁ parampar─-pr─ptam. So these foolish persons, they do not follow all these principles; therefore they cannot understand Bhagavad-g┤t─. Anyone... We say... It may appear to be very strong word but that's a fact. (Hindi) That's a strong word, that's all right, but he's a chor. (Hindi) Strong language used here... (Hindi)

Guest (6): (unclear)... From the very day I saw this movement, I have intent only in Kṛṣṇa, not in any other movement.

Prabhup─da: So that is our movement. Wherever we go, we find out sincere persons, immediately attract. Yes. But if he's not sincere, we cannot attract. If he's sincere, immediately attract. That is the value of this movement. All my students, they were attracted only because they were sincere. Anyone sincere in seeking after the Absolute Truth will be attracted.

Guest (6): I am not getting ...(unclear)

Prabhup─da: Ek─gra. Ek─gra. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-─śrayaḥ, therefore it is said. "One has to perform this bhakti-yoga under My representative." Mad-─śrayaḥ.

Guest (6): I am very grateful to you.

Prabhup─da: And there is Narottama d─sa Öh─kura-Pr─rthan─. Āśraya laiy─ bhaje, kṛṣṇa n─hi tare ty─ge: "One who takes ─śraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya pras─d─d bhagavat-pras─daḥ... Because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately... If he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately. It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra... This is the meaning of yasya pras─dad bhagavat-pra... Without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-pras─dad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected. In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary. Immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways. Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient... "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed--"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict.

Guest (6): (unclear) ...From tomorrow he was not able to get (unclear)

Prabhup─da: Yes. Just see. Yes. Therefore in our system Vaiṣṇav─par─dha is the greatest offense, to commit offense at the lotus feet of a Vaiṣṇava, and spiritual master is to be considered the first Vaiṣṇava. If there is apar─dha, that is great, greatest offense. That will spoil the whole spiritual life. These are stated in Caitanya-carit─mṛta. In Teachings of Lord Caitanya you'll find.


Haṁsad┗ta: King of India.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very nice.

Haṁsad┗ta: That never happened.

Prabhup─da: The same thing. The parliamentary members... Just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy... I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate r─jan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" You cannot change his habits. Sva... Yasya bh─vasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be...

Haṁsad┗ta: Canakya Pandit... I have see that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high (indistinct)

Prabhup─da: Yes. If you make a crow... The crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man. "How great I am, a very beautiful bird."

Revat┤nandana: The symbol of the Democrat party in America is the ass.

Prabhup─da: Everywhere. As soon as you...

Revat┤nandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol.

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes. Because they are asses.

Revat┤nandana: The Republican party is elephant and the Democratic party is ass, a donkey.

Prabhup─da: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned br─hmaṇas and sages, they w ere guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and br─hmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the... Just like Lord R─macandra did. R─macandra killed R─vaṇa but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibh┤ṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned br─hmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states... Now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw... How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low-grade. It is the sitting room and a naked picture has... How much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no (indistinct) education they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bh─vaḥ. You know that story? "Again become mouse."

Haṁsad┗ta: Oh yeah, I've heard that.

Prabhup─da: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound--laughter) Just like our Brahm─nanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take--these are the statements in Padma Pur─ṇa--then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daiv┤ hy eṣ─ guṇamay┤ mama m─y─ duratyay─, stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇ┛it─ḥ sama-darśinaḥ. One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahm─ are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahm─ and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. (break) It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh?

Haṁsad┗ta: The best place to start is Boston.

Prabhup─da: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston.

Haṁsad┗ta: Just like one or two pages.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the...

Haṁsad┗ta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting about current events.

Prabhup─da: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Giriraja, you can do that?

Giriraja: I could try.

Prabhup─da: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you... Every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then you start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhokt─raṁ yajïa-tapas─ṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram. What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam. So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri..., come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brahma-muh┗rta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment.


Prabhup─da: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fat. Also too much ghee also. That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just the Marwaris... (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is... In Āyur-Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-guṇa. There is a book, Dravya-guṇa. So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh--birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, "You Are What You Eat."

Haṁsad┗ta: George Bernard Shaw.

Prabhup─da: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian.

Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health.

Prabhup─da: Liver?

Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health.

Prabhup─da: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations.

Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything.

Prabhup─da: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended.

Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take?

Prabhup─da: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take.

Yamun─: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhup─da: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can.

Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw...

Prabhup─da: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is clear that without liver extract you shall die, you can take.

Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually (indistinct)

Prabhup─da: Because when there is question of death it is recommended you may take anything to save your life.

Yamun─: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhup─da: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even.

Yamun─: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant?

Prabhup─da: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara, immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today, or tomorrow, or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living.

Him─vat┤: Śr┤la Prabhup─da? I just have one question about the ending, that Aj─mila, he was calling the name of his youngest son.

Prabhup─da: N─r─yaṇa.

Him─vat┤: He was thinking but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real N─r─yaṇa.

Prabhup─da: N─r─yaṇa.

Him─vat┤: And therefore N─r─yaṇa saved him. Isn't that true?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Yes.

Him─vat┤: Not that he was simply calling and N─r─yaṇa had to save him...

Prabhup─da: But simply calling, "N─r─yaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes.

Him─vat┤: He remembered the real N─r─yaṇa.

Prabhup─da: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural.

Him─vat┤: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord.

Prabhup─da: That is the remark of Viśvan─tha Cakravart┤ Öh─kura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bh─gavata it is stated like that. But Viśvan─tha Cakravart┤ Öh─kura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered N─r─yaṇa.

Him─vat┤: In that same connection, the story of Öh─kura Harid─sa and the harlot. She began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good and simply by that association she began to chant or by previous association...

Prabhup─da: No, by association. By the influence of Harid─sa Öh─kura. For three days, three days she associated.

Him─vat┤: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association; therefore she began to chant.

Prabhup─da: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason.

Him─vat┤: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered.

Prabhup─da: No, no. No, no. That is not.

Him─vat┤: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines

Prabhup─da: That is not. He advocates that.(?) Direct association with Harid─sa Öh─kura. Why previously?

Him─vat┤: We want to say that previously she had done some chanting.

Prabhup─da: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders.

Him─vat┤: You heard about that article?

Prabhup─da: No.

Him─vat┤: That was the (indistinct)

Prabhup─da: Well, if that sort of remark is given it is not against the ś─stra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association... Caitanya Mah─prabhu says,

s─dhu sa━ga s─dhu sa━ga sarva ś─stra kaya

lava m─tra s─dhu sa━ge sarva siddhi haya

"Even a moment's association with a pure devotee--all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but s─dhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mah─prabhu said, lavamatra s─dhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the San─tana-śikṣ─ in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Revat┤nandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Revat┤nandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Prabhup─da: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mah─r─ja Par┤kṣit heard Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam. So Mah─r─ja Par┤kṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal.

Revat┤nandana: If the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Yes.

Revat┤nandana: But if a spiritual seed sprouts, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right?

Prabhup─da: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked.

Revat┤nandana: Because the tendency to revive again.

Prabhup─da: In that way again one has to... That brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvama━gala Öh─kura. Bilvama━gala Öh─kura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava-bhakti. Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take (devotees offer obeisances)

Devotee (6): Śr┤la Prabhup─da? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahmajyoti, that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky (indistinct) there's no shelter there so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body, but spirit, being restless can remain anywhere...

Prabhup─da: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge, and blissful life. So there is no bliss.


Room Conversation                                       December 21, 1970, Surat                                                        336009

Revatinandana: What is that word?

Prabhup─da: Daridra. Daridra means poor, poor. Daridra-n─r─yaṇa. This is manufactured word by Vivekananda. They are so proud that "When a beggar comes at your door, you should treat him as N─r─yaṇa, daridra." These are simply high-sounding words. What they are doing actually for the daridras?

Revatinandana: So that is service in the mode of ignorance.

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Revatinandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients. The patients are increasing. Hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temples is increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is welfare department? The expenditure increasing.

Revatinandana: Yes, (indistinct)

Prabhup─da: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self-independent. But why state has to give them help? That's not good. You may be... Just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported.

Yadubara: But what can the state do? Should the state just leave the people alone?

Prabhup─da: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.

Yadubara: But America is so far from that.

Prabhup─da: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-g┤t─ it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇ─pi duḥkhena na vic─lyate: "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇ─pi duḥkhena na vic─lyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar. So he was charitably disposed. He went to a br─hmaṇa and asked him--he was a great learned scholar--"Can I help you any way?" And the pandit replied, "No. I don't require your help. I am quite satisfied." "How you are satisfied?" "Oh, my, these students, they bring some rice. So my wife boils that, and I have got this tamarind tree. I take some leaves and prepare some juice out of it. That is sufficient." So he was satisfied. That's all. But he was a learned scholar. Similarly, Canakya Pandit... You have perhaps heard. He was the greatest politician. He was prime minister of India. He was living in a cottage and just giving instruction. So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient. And now in your country, oh, you have to attend office fifty miles off. And because you have to take this trouble, Kṛṣṇa has provided with car. You are thinking, "I am advanced." You don't think that "Although I have got car, I have to go fifty miles off from my home." This is illusion. You are thinking, "I am advanced. I am happy. I have got this car." This is illusion. Yes. Gaurasundara was going to maintain, and he drives fifty miles off, Honolulu. The poor fellow had to rise early in the morning. You see? And so much haste.(?) Therefore: "Gaurasundara, you better give up this job. Just depend on Kṛṣṇa." So he has given up. What is this? Fifty miles going by motorcycle or motor car, how much tedious it is. But still, they are satisfied that "We are advanced." And because they have many cars, therefore in your country always there is that (makes traffic noise), "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," wherever I go.

Revatinandana: And more problems come after that.

Prabhup─da: Simply, wherever you go, (makes traffic noise) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," and "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh." Up in the sky, "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh," and in the street, "sonh, sonh..." And then, when digging, "gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut!" (laughter) Is it not? Don't you feel botheration. But they are thinking, "Oh, America is very much advanced in machine." And when there is that garbage tank? "Ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon!" (laughter) So many sounds are going on, always. Eh? Of course, you have got very nice city, nice roads everywhere. But this trouble... You have created so many troubles. And there are news that one lady was a patient. She became mad for the sounds. And I think they are thinking very seriously how to stop all these sounds. Is it not?

Śy─masundara: Especially they have these airplanes now.

Prabhup─da: Oh.

Śy─masundara: They make such a tremendous sound that they break windows and everything else.

Prabhup─da: Now we are with Sambhu in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problems, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced. And Bh─gavata says that there is no problem. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramat─m upary adhaḥ. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then how I shall live? That, the answer, is tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like you don't aspire for miseries, but it comes upon you, it is forced upon you, similarly, happiness also will be forced upon you, whatever you are destined to receive. So don't try for happiness or discarding distress. That will go on. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which, without your trying, it will never be fulfilled. You have to voluntarily try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, revive it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharm─n parityajya m─m ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. You do it--because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But He doesn't do that. He doesn't interfere with your independence. He says, "Do it." Therefore you have to try for it, not for other things. Other things, already there are. For the birds and beasts there is no problem for eating. Why your problem should be? Just like a prisoner. He has no problem for eating. The government supplies. He has only problem that he should not be criminal. That is his problem. He should try for that: "No more I shall become a criminal." That is the real activity. But he thinks... If in the prisonhouse you say, "What shall I eat?" no, eating is already there. Even you are a prisoner, the government has supplied his eating. Similarly, God has supplied everyone, cats and dogs, for eating. Why not for you? You have created your own problem. Real problem is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramat─m upary adhaḥ. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that.

Yadubara: These problems will take care of themselves if people develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Yadubara: Then there is no need to deal with the problem then.

Prabhup─da: There is no problem. At least we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we have no problem for eating. Is it? Is there any problem?

Haṁsad┗ta: There's problem. Eating too much!

Prabhup─da: (laughs) This is practical. If you have any problem, you join us. You will have no problem for eating. That I can guarantee you. Wherever you go, you shall eat sumptuously. Yes.

Devotee (3): Is it all right to finish rounds(?) in the temple when there's nothing to do?

Prabhup─da: No.

Devotee (3): This afternoon.

Prabhup─da: Not afternoon. You have to do it in the morning when there is nothing.

Guest (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhup─da: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (4): He danced on sa━k┤rtana today.

Prabhup─da: Perhaps in other engagement he cannot dance. Actually there is no problem. Why there should be problem? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human being are 400... Out of that, 80%, they are uncivilized. So all these living entities have no problem for eating. This 20% or 15% people who are called as civilized, they have problem. They have created problem. At least in India, say, hundred years before, there was no problem for eating, even for the ś┗dra class or any... No, there was no... The society was so made, there was no problem. Why fifty years? In 1933 or '36 in Vṛnd─vana somebody wanted milk, some pilgrimage amongst ourselves. So went to a house. So, "Can you supply us some milk?" "Ah, how much you want?" So it was about ten pounds. So she supplied immediately, one woman, and when she was offered price, "Oh, why shall I take a price for ten or twenty pounds of milk? Oh, you can take it." That is my practical experience. Milk was so freely available. So simply we are creating problems by godless civilization. That is a fact.

Haṁsad┗ta: Once you said we are making solutions to self-created problems, and we think it's advancement.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Haṁsad┗ta: We've created a big thing and then make so many solutions.

Prabhup─da: Just like we just take example from your country. You are constructing so many highways, freeways. Still, there is problem. Still, even in the highways, sometimes blocked. Aiye. (Hindi) Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido. (Hindi) We do not dissuade persons to stop work. No. That is not our... You do your work, but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's it. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. Kṛṣṇa never stopped him from his occupation, but he was taught Kṛṣṇa conscious even in the battlefield. (Hindi-- break) You want to see? Yes. Where is that book?

Haṁsad┗ta: Here, Bhagavad-g┤t─.

Prabhup─da: Kiïcid adh┤ta. (break) ...a thousand pages of this size. This is four hundred pages, but that G┤t─ will be thousand pages. But we shall use very thin paper. Yes. It is available after some time.

Guest (2): Where?

Prabhup─da: In our center in India.

Guest (2): Is this same?

Prabhup─da: No, it is Nectar of Devotion. Where are our other books?

Haṁsad┗ta: In my suitcase. Shall I bring them?

Prabhup─da: Yes, bring. (break) Kṛṣṇa, canvassing Himself, says, Kṛṣṇa, Himself canvassing, sarva-dharm─n parityajya m─m ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. "Give up everything. Just surrender unto Me." How many do it? So we are canvassing on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. He personally said practically. So you don't expect that everyone will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is very difficult.

manuṣy─ṇ─ṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatat─m api siddh─n─ṁ

kaścid vetti m─ṁ tattvataḥ

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult, but it is the mercy of Lord Caitanya that through this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement they are coming so soon. Otherwise, the subject matter is very difficult. (pause) So many flowers?

Haṁsad┗ta: Yes.

Prahupada: So why not give everyone.

Haṁsad┗ta: Everyone?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Guest (3): Do you practice meditation in your center?

Haṁsad┗ta: Our meditation consists of chanting the holy name of God. Or, in fact, we are always absorbed in meditating because whatever we do, we do on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So our mind, which is the center of our activities, is always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. The principle of meditation is to fix up our mind on Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me. Become My devotee. Bow down to Me. Worship Me. Give your love to Me. In this way, you will come to Me." So if we want to go to Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhup─da: That is the highest, topmost type of yoga. Yogin─m api sarveṣ─ṁ mad-gata ─ntar─tman─, śraddh─v─n bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo mataḥ: "Anyone," Kṛṣṇa says, "who is thinking of Me always within his heart, with devotion and love, he is the topmost yogi." Yogin─m api sarveṣ─ṁ. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as soon as you chant Kṛṣṇa and hear it, immediately you think of. And the chanting is not done by any ordinary man. Unless one has love and devotion for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot chant. You just study with this verse. Śraddh─v─n bhajate yo mam, ─ntar─tman─: "Within, he is topmost." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are training people to become the topmost yogis.

Guest (3): Do they have to practice every day?

Prabhup─da: The practice is very simple. Anyone, when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, even child joins. Even a small child, he also claps and joins. Therefore it is recommended in the ś─stras, harer n─ma harer n─ma harer n─ma iva kevalam, kalau n─sty eva n─sty eva n─sty eva. In this age nobody can meditate actually. It is very difficult. Maybe one or two persons can meditate, but that is not for all. But here Kṛṣṇa conscious, the chanting, is so nice, that even a child can take part. It doesn't require that he should be educated, he should be rich or he should be enlightened, no. As he is, simply if he takes part in this... Even woman. We were chanting. There was some roaring. As soon as we begin chanting, it stopped. This is authorized. This is recommended. And this is practically being... Now in European and American countries, four or five years back...

Guest (3): Chanting is mental concentration, is it?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Chanting and hearing, locked up. Mind is locked up. And because the Kṛṣṇa vibration is locked up, then Kṛṣṇa is locked up, because there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, absolute. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. Therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, His form, His pastimes.



purnaḥ śuddho nitya-m┗kto

'bhinnatv─n n─ma-n─minoḥ

Because n─ma and the n─minaḥ, being inseparable, therefore n─ma is also purna, nitya, śuddha, mukta.

Guest (3): What is the trance that... The meditation, trance enters. It is called...

Prabhup─da: Trance is... The actual meditation means concentrate one's mind on Viṣṇu form. That is real meditation. But now they have, the impersonalists and voidists, they have manufactured so many things, but actual meditation means...

Guest (3): Transcendental meditation. Trans...?

Prabhup─da: Transcendental meditation. The transcendental meditation means to think of Lord Viṣṇu.




Room Conversation                                    January 6, 1971, Calcutta                                                            336121

Devotee (2): We were getting a cow but we joined ISKCON just before we got the cow. We were going to get one for four hundred dollars. It was giving sixteen quarts a day and had a calf.

Prabhup─da: Sixteen quarts?

Devotee (2): A day, yes. There was a small calf also.

Prabhup─da: There must be grazing ground for cows. Then there is no problem.


Room Conversation                                  January 17, 1971, Allahabad                                                         336126

Prabhup─da: Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. "Eat any... All Brahman, all N─r─yaṇa. You are N─r─yaṇa. Goat is N─r─yaṇa. So N─r─yaṇa is going in the belly of N─r─yaṇa. What is the wrong? One N─r─yaṇa is going, being absorbed by another N─r─yaṇa." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger N─r─yaṇa.

Haṁsad┗ta: They actually say that?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Haṁsad┗ta: "One N─r─yaṇa is being absorbed by another."

Prabhup─da: One respectable pleader in Allahabad, I said, "Why you are eating this?" We also find that he's a very religious man. So I inquired. He was just like our father; still, I inquired. He said, "No, what is the wrong there? N─r─yaṇa, Brahman. So one Brahman is going into the belly of another Brahman, Brahman being absorbed, brahmeti." So they have got so dangerous theory. But still, we shall not hesitate to kick on their face but because they are making a propaganda, it should be peaceful. But I become very much agitated with this nonsense because I know they are creating havoc. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (door closes) So many rascals. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...


Prabhup─da: That's all right. Oh, you haven't got. You have got? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (birds crying) The sunrise is declared. "Koo koo koo koo koo." Yes. Nature's way. They'll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. He's a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws and therefore we suffer. Daiv┤ hy eṣ─ guṇamay┤ mama m─y─ duratyay─, m─m eva ye prapadyante. And one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the m─y─. And those who are in m─y─ they are sleeping. And those who are not in m─y─ they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? M─m eva ye prapadyante: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the m─y─'s contamination." Just see. There is ma━gala ─rati. In Vṛnd─vana just at four o'clock. You have heard?

Yamun─: I was just thinking, Prabhup─da.

Prabhup─da: Immediately there is "dung, dung, dung, dung," all temples. Immediately. And people are running. Oh, they will gather all to the Deity, temple. Hundreds of people will go automatically. The same man who was living at home, a very degraded condition, as soon as he goes to Vṛnd─vana he becomes habituated to all these things automatically. Automatically. Yes. The society, association, is very important.

Yamun─: Those beautiful birds, the peacock birds also at this time, they are flying in trees and waking up now and make that sound. Oh, Vṛnd─vana.

Prabhup─da: So the society is very important thing. Any, anything, society... The businessmen, they have got their association, society, to improve. Therefore the standard of this International Society should be kept very carefully. Then who will come in touch with this society will be improved automatically by association. All right. Even in the bird society there are swans and there are crows, by nature, and the crows will never go to the swans, and the swans will never come to the crows. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yes. Therefore society required. Unless you come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, how you can develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The same principle. Sat─ṁ prasa━g─n... Sat─ṁ prasa━g─n mama v┤rya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-ras─yan─ḥ kathaḥ. V┤rya-saṁvidaḥ. It becomes very palatable, sat─ṁ prasa━g─t, in the association of devotees, not otherwise. (end)




Room Conversation                                  February 14, 1971, Gorakhpur                                                      336788

Prabhup─da: Guru Mah─r─ja was in his last days, these rascal doctors injected... Our, this Kuïjabih─r┤, T┤rtha Mah─r─ja brought so many big, big doctors. And he protested, "Why are you giving me injection?" He protested. He personally said, "Why are you giving me injection?" And if you bring a doctor, the rascals will not stop. "Oh, that is our treatment. We must try our best." They will plead like that. "To give more trouble to the patient, that is our business." Inventing new medicines means inventing new means of giving trouble. That's all. As soon as you ask them whether by injection the life is guaranteed, they will say, "No. There is no guarantee. Let us try, make experiment." Yes. In hospital, as soon as you get (microphone moving)... Whatever nonsense knowledge they have got, they make experiment, at the risk of other's life.

Haṁsad┗ta: When Him─vat┤ broke her leg they wanted to operate. I said, "Oh, no, no chance. No operation." Then they immediately said, "Then maybe she'll never walk again."

Prabhup─da: Just see.

Haṁsad┗ta: So I said, "Well, how can we tell?" They said, "Well, there's no way to tell." I said, "Suppose we operate. Then it's guaranteed that everything will be all right?" They said, "No." But they thought they should do that.

Prabhup─da: Yes. They canvass, they convince like that and make experiment. That is their business. They have no, I mean to say, assured idea. Simply experiment. All these hospitals, they are meant for making experiment. I think I have told you one story of my servant. Did I? Huh?

Haṁsad┗ta: No. Please tell us the story. (laughter)

Prabhup─da: (laughs) The servant was crying, "Oh! I am dying, I am dying, I am dying." So I immediately called ambulance and took her to the hospital. Then, when I went there, there were so many neophyte doctors. They experimented, and they said, "Immediate operation is required." "Why?" They gave us some technical terms. Then their leader doctor came. He said, "All right. Let us see this night. Then, next morning, we shall operate." So I asked him, "I can go? He may remain in your charge?" "Yes." So I went, came back. And when I was absent, another servant of the neighbor, he told to my wife, that "Babuji..." Babuji means master. " is unnecessarily he has taken to hospital. He was drunk, and he was crying like that. (laughter) He drank." So my wife told that he was drunk, and he was therefore crying like that. "No, no. Doctor says that it is a serious case (laughter) and it is to be operated." And the next morning the servant came back. "And why you come back? You were to be operated?" "Oh, thik hai. It is now all right." Just see. The rascals were going to operate. He was drunk. In drunken state he was crying, and they took it a case of operation. That is my practical experience. Everything you take there: "Operation."

Devotee (1): That's a symptom of the modern civilization, Śr┤la Prabhup─da.

Prabhup─da: Operation. That is... Demons are to be cheated like that. Simply operation. Simply operation. Bas.

Devotee (2): Also they're trying to get money.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Injection and operation. That is in their hands.

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: Should we try to avoid getting injections as much as possible?

Prabhup─da: That is my opinion. But as soon as you go to a medical man, especially in your country, first of all, you have to give blood, immediately. (laughter) One ounce of blood immediately. First business. And then other injection. Because I underwent so many medical examination, I have got experience. For my immigration. I think, three or four times I was under health examination, and blood-taking, and injection. Of course, it is not very painful. That arrangement is there. But the business is like that, "First of all give your blood; then talk of other things." Better to die without a doctor. (laughter) That's the best principle. Don't call any doctor. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and die peacefully.

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: But what about when you're not going to die... What about when you have some problems that's not fatal. Then who would we call?

Prabhup─da: Then go take injection. What can be done? (laughter) There is no alternative.

Devotee (1): How long will you be feeling bad from the injection?

Prabhup─da: If it remains simply for a while that is sufficient to kill you. There is no question of how long.

Devotee (1): It's just that you don't look very... You don't look like your normal self. There's no...

Prabhup─da: Sometimes they do business, simply water they inject. Yes. Simply water and take fee. They know there is no necessity of medicine; still, they will inject some water, distilled water, and take the fees. I have seen the doctors and some, I mean to say, ordinary man, illiterate. "What kind of treatment you want? Injection or medicine?" So naturally, he will say, "The best one. I want to..." "Then you have to take injection."

Tam─la Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.

Prabhup─da: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bh─gavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipad─ṁ. In every step there is danger.

M─lat┤: This lecture was recorded in Gorakhpur, U.P., India, on the evening of Feb. 14, 1970 (end)


Room Conversation                                  February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur                                                      336879

Prabhup─da: Therefore you are, we have prescribed rules for chanting. You must finish sixteen rounds, then go to sleep, whole day sleeping. You finish that sixteen rounds and sleep whole day. I have no objection. (laughter)

Devotee: But then...

Prabhup─da: There is no then. Don't talk nonsense. If you are so much addicted to sleeping, you simply chant sixteen rounds and whole day sleep. But don't take food also. (laughter) Don't get up taking pras─dam. "Now I have to honor pras─dam. Let me eat sumptuous, then again sleep more."

Devotee: Is there some order of priority in service then? I mean, sixteen rounds is more important than anything else. And then following that, there's something else.

Prabhup─da: That's all right. If you cannot do anything else, you simply chant sixteen rounds, take pras─dam, and sleep. (laughter) It is special prerogative for you. There is no then. This is, this is order for you.

Devotee: In a situation where there's a choice between say chanting and reading. Is chanting a better activity than reading?

Prabhup─da: Yes, chanting and reading is the same thing.

Devotee: But is one better than the other?

Prabhup─da: No better. That I explained. It is absolute. Either you chant or read, the same thing. But you have to fulfill the sixteen rounds. That's it. All right. Let us... (end)


Room Conversation                                         June 22, 1971, Moscow                                                          337124

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes, more than three thousand, three thousand initiated. And outside admirers, there are many, many. And this means these three thousand who have accepted the principles, just like these boys. So there are fifty-five branches. In each branch we are maintaining twenty-five to hundred students. So just imagine.

Prof. Kotovsky: But does that mean the students, they abstain for normal West European universities their own, all their... How to explain it? Their... For instance, can a normal student from, for instance, from one of the best universities, who is attending lectures in normal way, etc., also be initiated and admitted to your community?

Prabhup─da: No, both ways. Both ways. If you want to be initiated, you are welcome. If not, you come. Try to understand our philosophy. Read our books. There are so many books, magazines. And question, answer. Try to understand the philosophy. It is not that all of a sudden a student comes and becomes our disciple, no. They first of all come, associate, try to understand. Then... We do not canvass. When he voluntarily says that "I want to be your..."

Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes.

Prabhup─da: Yes. There is no canvassing.

Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes. That's what I thought. But what I am most interested in... For instance, not a student but a young worker or a young son of a farmer, he would abstain from his old life and he would be initiated and join your community into a given center. How he would entertain himself?

Prabhup─da: The thing is... I have alre...

Prof. Kotovsky: In the sorts of day to day life...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: Material life...

Prabhup─da: Now, material life, it is...

Prof. Kotovsky: Would he be paid to stay in that center?

Prabhup─da: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some br─hmaṇas all over the world because the br─hmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a br─hmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a br─hmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a ś┗dra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sanny─s┤, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sanny─s┤. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmac─r┤, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmac─r┤. Similarly, there is sanny─s┤. So that is Caitanya Mah─prabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmac─r┤ or a br─hmaṇa or ś┗dra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba ś┗dra ny─si kene n─ya... Do you understand little Bengali?

Prof. Kotovsky: No, but...

Prabhup─da: As a vibration...

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru h─ya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become...

Prof. Kotovsky: Guru.

Prabhup─da: ...the spiritual master.

Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating br─hmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script...

Prabhup─da: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish.

Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Pur─ṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: to be born inside it...

Prabhup─da: No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.

Prabhup─da: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...

Prabhup─da: No, no, that... I am sorry...

Prof. Kotovsky: of all the varṇas.

Prabhup─da: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-g┤t─ it is stated, c─tur-varṇyaṁ m─y─ sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibh─gaśaḥ: "These four orders of br─hmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, ś┗dra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late br─hmaṇas who tried to...

Prabhup─da: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bh─ratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mah─r─ja Par┤kṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bh─ratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bh─ratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Il─vṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bh─rata ruled over this planet, it is called Bh─ratavarṣa from Mah─r─ja Bh─rata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called san─tana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Just like...


Interview                                                        July 4, 1971, Los Angeles                                                        337439

Interviewer: Well, on religion... What I would like to highlight, what I would like to emphasize is that we place a good deal of emphasis on religion in the ways it gets one man to deal with another man. The ethic of religion. Now...

Prabhup─da: No. Our point is not that.

Interviewer: In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...

Prabhup─da: No, no. Our... We must clear. We are not concerned how one man deals with another man. Our point...

Interviewer: As a part of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?

Prabhup─da: No, no.

Interviewer: This is not important?

Prabhup─da: No. This is not important. Because we know as soon as one understands how to deal with God, he'll automatically deal with other men very nicely.

Interviewer: But you know... Let's take the Christian religion for example.

Prabhup─da: No, I do not wish...

Interviewer: You know the ten commandments for example, there is a heavy emphasis in the ten commandments on the relationships between one human being and another. "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal." That sort of thing.

Prabhup─da: But I say that Jesus Christ never said, he never meant, "Thou shall not kill," means only human being. Where is that evidence? Jesus Christ never said "Thou shall not kill means it means only human being." Thou shall not kill any animal.

Interviewer: Any life.

Prabhup─da: Any life. That is religion.

Interviewer: It has never been interpreted that way.

Prabhup─da: But you have interpreted different way, but he said "Thou shall not kill." He never said "Thou shall not kill amongst human being." Why do you interpret in that way?

Interviewer: How would I recognize a true follower of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by his behavior? What would his traits be? What would his outward expressions be?

Prabhup─da: Yes. His behavior, he's a perfect gentleman. That's all. You cannot find any fault in him. That is perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are prohibited not to eat meat.

Interviewer: Not to eat meat?

Prabhup─da: No. They are prohibited from illicit sex life. They are prohibited to intoxication. They do not smoke even, what to speak of other intoxications. And they are prohibited not to indulge in gambling. So if they can observe these four rules and regulations, they become perfect men. Simply.

Interviewer: Or women I presume.

Prabhup─da: Woman or man. Anyone.

Interviewer: Men or women. There is place for women in the religion too isn't...?

Prabhup─da: Woman and man have got the same right. Just like we are getting married boys and girls. They're following the same principles. The same principles. So these are the four pillars of perfect life. And if we indulge in these things, illicit sex life, meat-eating, and intoxication, and gambling, then they become the four pillars of sinful life. And If we take them away, then they become, the prohibited portion becomes the pillars of perfect life.


Room Conversation                                        August 14, 1971, London                                                        338092

Prabhup─da: Anyway. We are teaching how to love God. That's all.

Guest (1): Yes. So we're doing the same thing.

Prabhup─da: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless.

Guest (1): How does he know?

Prabhup─da: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see, whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there.

Revat┤nandana: Jesus used the expression loving God or loving mammon.

Prabhup─da: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mah─prabhu says:

yug─yitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣ─ pr─vṛṣ─yitam

ś┗ny─yitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda viraheṇa me

Yug─yitaṁ, "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣ─ pravṛṣ─yitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣ─ pravṛṣ─yitam, ś┗ny─yitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareś─nubhava-viraktir anyatra sy─t. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter. We want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one, a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another. Because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa, or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And method is simple. Chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant Kṛṣṇa. If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that.

Guest (1): We say Jesus Christ.

Prabhup─da: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that "Chant the holy name of God." If you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, Kṛṣṇa. We don't say Kṛṣṇa.

n─mn─m ak─ri bahudh─ nija-sarva-śaktis

tatr─rpit─ niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na k─laḥ

et─dṛś┤ tava kṛp─ bhagav─n mam─pi

durdaivam ┤dṛśam ih─jani n─nur─gaḥ

Lord Caitanya says, in each and every name of God... There are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So... And there is no hard and fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mah─prabhu says "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age..." Why...? Not in this age. Every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught... They have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare R─ma Hare R─ma R─ma R─ma Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare R─ma Hare R─ma R─ma R─ma Hare Hare. I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Et─dṛś┤ tava kṛp─. "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America, and other places, they were... I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has... Other has to calculate. Then calculate, then serve. Yes. There is so much profit.

Guest (1): We see that.

Prabhup─da: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done?

Guest (1): Don't worry about that.

Prabhup─da: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse. "No."

Guest (1): When you chant, do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things?

Prabhup─da: Other things?

Guest (1): Well, many things require your concentration.

Prabhup─da: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration.

Guest (1): You see, two, two things... You can't...

Prabhup─da: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately.

Guest (1): But you can't read or talk to someone.

Prabhup─da: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught... In our educational system they chant... What is that? That...? (Hindi) Pahara pahara.(?)

Indian man: Pahara. Alphabet. A.I.E.

Prabhup─da: They chant. By chanting, by hearing they learn. "A,B,C," like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." We did it in our childhood. One boy will chant like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." And we shall repeat. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." So repeating three times, I understand 2 plus 2 equal to 4.

Guest (1): Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Revat┤nandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?

Prabhup─da: Why not? Why not?

Guest (1): It goes deeper and deeper?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart. If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names go to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart.

Guest (1): I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer...

Prabhup─da: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. It will always remain in your heart.

Guest (1): Always going on.

Prabhup─da: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare R─ma Hare R─ma R─ma R─ma Hare Hare. It remains in the heart. Not only my heart. Others' heart, they also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me. We... Last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka, they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain.

Revat┤nandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times.

Prabhup─da: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all.

Revat┤nandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a, almost like japa beads. Show him.

Guest (1): You see, here.

Revat┤nandana: They're almost like japa m─l─.

Guest (1): We do it in some, together, in the orthodox church. And we take turns doing two hundred.

Prabhup─da: That's nice.

Guest (1): And... These are for counting.

Prabhup─da: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."

Prabhup─da: Oh, what is the wording?

Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."

Prabhup─da: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God..."

Revat┤nandana: "Have mercy on us."

Guest (1): It's a little prayer.

Prabhup─da: That's nice.

Guest (1): And they also pray to the mother of God.

Prabhup─da: Sinful? "We are sinful?" You say, "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like?

Haṁsad┗ta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer.

Guest (1): And you say it in your own language.

Prabhup─da: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good.

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Prabhup─da: That is nice. Now, the, by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God?

Guest (1): The mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it?

Prabhup─da: That's it. Mercy of... So... That is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa-prema-prad─ya te. Caitanya Mah─prabhu is also worshiped, that "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-prad─ya te. Namo mah─-vad─ny─ya. "You are the most munificent of all incarnations because You are distributing love of God." Kṛṣṇa-prema-prad─ya te. Kṛṣṇ─ya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-n─mne. "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is R┗pa Gosv─m┤'s prayer.

Guest (1): Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you?

Prabhup─da: Yes, certainly. God and God's name, and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent.

Guest (1): What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant?

Prabhup─da: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different.

Guest (1): Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed?

Revat┤nandana: What will the mind be doing?

Haṁsad┗ta: While chanting.

Revat┤nandana: What should the mind be doing?

Prabhup─da: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is, that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect.

Guest (1): It's very difficult to think of God.

Prabhup─da: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad-g┤t─ it is said:

yeṣ─ṁ tv anta-gataṁ p─paṁ

jan─n─ṁ puṇya-karmaṇ─m

te dvanda-moha-nirmukt─

bhajante m─ṁ dṛ┛ha-vrat─ḥ

One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible.

Guest (1): There's a lot more ...sins than just those four things.

Prabhup─da: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities.

Guest (1): If you're irritated with somebody.

Prabhup─da: Hm?

Revat┤nandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin.

Prabhup─da: No, that is...

Guest (1): Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin.

Prabhup─da: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?

Guest (1): Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian...

Prabhup─da: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?

Haṁsad┗ta: Animal.

Prabhup─da: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son?

Revat┤nandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing.

Prabhup─da: (people coming in) Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śiv─nanda, you come... You can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years; there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the... in Bhagavad-g┤t─. (people sitting down) Why? You can come here, this side.

Haṁsad┗ta: You can sit here.

Prabhup─da: Yeṣ─ṁ tv anta-gataṁ p─paṁ. One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. Devil citing scripture. A dev┤l cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ─c─ryas, San─tana Gosv─m┤, he says that "Don't hear scriptures from the dev┤l." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodg┤rṇaṁ p┗taṁ hari-kath─mṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam." If a dev┤l's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say, "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is dev┤l or angel. It doesn't matter." No. The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yath─. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yath─. You cannot bring the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a dev┤l. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mah─prabhu's principle is ─pani ─cari prabhu j┤veri śikṣ─ya. He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so-called preaching. That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all conditions, if we, with faith and love we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified.


Guest (1): What about pleasures like listening to music?

Prabhup─da: Yes, we chant the glories of God.

Guest (1): Could you listen to other peoples' music?

Prabhup─da: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ k┤rtanaṁ viṣṇu. Chanting and hearing about God, that is music.

Guest (1): Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that?

Prabhup─da: Which one?

Revat┤nandana: Beethoven's symphony. He means classical Western music. They make some music.

Prabhup─da: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection.

Revat┤nandana: But there may be no reference to God in it.

Prabhup─da: No, then we don't hear. We reject.

Guest (1): Inspired by God, given by God.

Prabhup─da: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property. But do you like to go to the prisonhouse? We say everything belongs to government. We are not so liberal, that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prisonhouse."


Room Conversation                                    August 15, 1971, London                                                            338392

Prabhup─da: Simply we shall sell retail in our sa━k┤rtana. Let them sell to the bookstore. We shall not sell a single copy to the bookstore, or wholesaler. We shall simply sell in our sa━k┤rtana party. In this way arrange...(break)

Śy─masundara: ...weekend festivals from town to town?

Prabhup─da: Town to town. What do you think this idea Huh? Continue engagement. And as many men may join us, we can accomodate them. Every country. Yajïaiḥ sa━k┤rtana pr─yair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. I got this idea, one king, (indistinct), the grandson of Prthuraya, this Mah─r─ja Prithu, he performed so many yajïas that on the surface of the earth, there were only kuśa grass scattered. Yajïa, they require kuśa grass. Kuśa grass. So all over the world it was simply scattered, after yajïas, I have given my comment in this. Similarly, we shall perform this sa━k┤rtana yajïa all over the world, town to town, town to town. Now we have got GBC all over the world. Let them organize. What they'll do? Organize yajïa after yajïa, yajïa after yajïa. So that as at the present moment even if we go somewhere, are known to: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" They say. The whole world will say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Either jokingly or serious, it doesn't matter. Let them joke, criticize them, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," still they will have the effect. Still they will have it. In the Nṛsiṁha Pur─ṇa there is an instance that a Mussulman was attacked by, what is called? Boar having...

Parivr─jak─c─rya: Tiger? Boar. A wild boar.

Prabhup─da: A wild boar. So when the boar attacked him the Musselmans, when they do not like they say, "Haram. Haram." Condemn means haram. So when the boar attacked him he said haram. "Haram!" But it acted, ha r─ma, and he got salvation. Do you follow what I say? A Mussulman said, 'ha ram. Ha ram He condemned. It is abominable. That is the meaning of Urdu, haram. But at the time of death, when the boar attacked him, he said, "Haram." So it acted ha r─ma. Ha, he r─ma. It acted, chanting the name of R─ma, Hare R─ma. He meant something else, but it acted as beneficial as chanting He r─ma. So therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, either you chant seriously, or those who are criticizing us, jokingly, the effect will be same. So anyway let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you follow? Even they do not take it seriously, if they imitate, joke, still they'll be benefited .

Parivr─jak─c─rya: Should these be straight sa━k┤rtana, no... Should these be...

Prabhup─da: Well, they... As we install our Deity and chanting, dancing, offering ─rati. This interests.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: Not electric guitars and all that.

Prabhup─da: No, no.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: Good. Prabhup─da.

Prabhup─da: Electric guitar, if it is, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa only, nothing else, then it is all right. But as far as possible, simply mṛda━ga and kart─l. But if GBC thinks that it attracts more people so they give contribution, that is a different thing. Otherwise there is no need.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: I think nothing can attract like mṛda━gas and karat─las.

Prabhup─da: That is practical, we have seen.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: When we put guitars, it waters it down. It doesn't have the same effect.

Prabhup─da: All GBC members should organize like that. Then everything will be all right. And sell books. Now you... What is the name? Maṇ┛al┤bhadra, he is slow. So you translate.

Haṁsad┗ta: Okay. Because there are others, they are competent. I have others, they are competent.

Prabhup─da: That's all right. Simply you check that they are not writing nonsense.

Haṁsad┗ta: Oh yes. That I can do.

Prabhup─da: That's all. And print it and distribute. And another thing. If you can print yourself, it is all right, But if you want printing cost from the general book fund, then whatever you sell you deposit there. You deposit and take, deposit and take, deposit and take. Then when, even if you have no money you'll get money. And then you deposit. But if you spend it, then you cannot expect from the general book fund.

Haṁsad┗ta: No, no. I'm already doing that with them.

Prabhup─da: Jaya.

Haṁsad┗ta: Whatever they print for me, or whatever Bali prints for me, I pay him and I pay 100% mark-up so that there can be some money.

Prabhup─da: So in this way organize and distribute literature, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa sa━k┤rtana yajïa. Then our mission will be successful. Accha, here, they are coming, so we shall make a committee, London building fund committee. In that committee, Mr. Arnold and his wife... (break) ...nicely and organize responsibly. So that can be done provided they have got their own men. Why he's not training the Africans? He should train.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: He hasn't got very many Africans. I think only about two.

Prabhup─da: Then suspend that installation.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: They haven't been making any devotees there.

Prabhup─da: Then there is no... (break) ...and if we conquer our eating then we can conquer our sleeping also. Nidr─h─ra vih─rak─di vijitau. (break) Don't make fuss. If you are serious, then it is all right. Otherwise, you are young men. If you again give up sanny─sa or you try to marry, it will be scandalous for our society. Don't do that. If you are steady... But so far report is you are not very steady. Do you admit this or not?

Kulaśekhara: Yes. Prabhup─da.

Prabhup─da: Then how you can take sanny─sa? It is a very great responsibility. (break) There is no need of taking sanny─sa. If you are sincere in preaching you can do in this dress. Where is the harm? Simply by changing, taking a rod, you'll not become God immediately. You have to work, steadily. What is there in sanny─sa? Do you mean to say taking a rod one becomes sanny─sa? Sanny─sa means you must be sacrificing everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sanny─sa. An─śritaḥ karma-phalaṁ k─ryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sanny─s┤. Sa sanny─s┤, he's sanny─s┤. An─śritaḥ karma phalaṁ k─ryaṁ karma karoti. You went to Israel but again came back. Why? What was the difficulty?

Kulaśekhara: Well, there's no activity there Prabhup─da. I got attacked on the street. I got very sick and I was attacked on the street when I was on sa━k┤rtana.

Prabhup─da: Do you like to go to Africa? It is warm country.

Kulaśekhara: Yes Prabhup─da. That would be nice.

Prabhup─da: So you can go. You can go. And you know Deity... (break) ...and if it is sufficiently left, then she doesn't require further. Otherwise add something. But she'll take after the husband. My mother was doing. Yes. The remnants of foodstuff left by the husband will be taken by the wife. That means if the husband does not eat, she'll not eat. So those things are now dream only. (laughs) Impossible. Just like small child, If he follows the father, catching the hand of the father, she is always safe, he is always safe. Now your so-called independence has spoiled the social life. You know he was married. Where she is now?

Kulaśekhara: Oh, she left. We haven't seen her since she left. I don't know where she is. Three years ago. When she left, Śr┤la Prabhup─da, she took some drugs and...

Prabhup─da: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. P─pi t─pi yata chilo harin─me uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for m─y─, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa pras─dam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.

Śy─masundara: Materialistic life is so bothersome. All the time some trouble.

Prabhup─da: Just like in hog civilization. That's all. They are thinking that "We are very happy eating stool." But others know that what kind of happiness he is enjoying. Similarly these rascal karmis, materialists, they are thinking by... What is called? Kini...What is called? Naked skirt?

Devotees: Miniskirt?

Prabhup─da: Miniskirt, trying to show the private part and people will be attracted and she will be happy. This is regular prostitution. Regular prostitution. Still they are not getting husband. Even they walk naked... That will come. Say after fifty years it will come like that.

Śy─masundara:They are starting already some places, walking naked.

Prabhup─da: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious.

Parivr─jak─c─rya: But they don't want to have any children.

Prabhup─da: That is next program. Why not? Now we are having our wives, so many children. Los Angeles full of children. So natural way should be accepted. They require husband. The law is, "No. You cannot have more, you cannot marry one wife." The girls have become prostitute. That's all right. "The girls are becoming prostitute. That's all right. But you cannot marry more than one." What is this?

Śy─masundara: They have contraceptive pills even for young children.

Kulaśekhara: One barrister, one of the top judges in England, a top man, top doctor, he said children should have sex life at fourteen. He said this in the newspaper two days ago. He said children at fourteen should be allowed to have sex life. He said this should be made legal. He's a top doctor or judge.

Prabhup─da: Children?

Śy─masundara: Children should be allowed to have sex life at fourteen years old.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is psychological. They develop... Sex life, sex urge is there as soon as twelve years, thirteen years old, especially women. So therefore early marriage was sanctioned in India. Early marriage. Boy fifteen years, sixteen years, and girl twelve years. Not twelve years, ten years. I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system.

Śy─masundara: So they are not spoiled.

Prabhup─da: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there.

Śy─masundara: And the Russians and the Chinese, they are training to take over. They are marching, practicing war.

Prabhup─da: Hm?

Śy─masundara: In Russia we noticed every day they're practicing for war, young people, marching.

Prabhup─da: Mechanical.

Śy─masundara: Yes. In China too, marching, ready to take over.

Kulaśekhara: When we were in New York, one boy...

Prabhup─da: No, there will be fight. That is the prediction of great politician. There will be war between these Communist and anti-Communist. There are two parties now. The anti-Communist will be defeated. The Communists will come out victorious.

Śy─masundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight.

Prabhup─da: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau ś┗dra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is ś┗dra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a ś┗dra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or br─hmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as ś┗dra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the ś┗dras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and ś┗dra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no br─hmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some br─hmaṇas. And if people follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by m─y─. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, m─y─ is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side m─y─ and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa--m─y─. As soon as you give up m─y─, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?

Śy─masundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.

Prabhup─da: Where is that?

Śy─masundara: Just down the street.

Prabhup─da: He takes them.

Śy─masundara: I don't know. I guess he does. He's gone all day. Every day he's gone. He says it's too disturbing to work here, too crowded.

Prabhup─da: That may be.

Śy─masundara: I think he's doing it by longhand, writing it out because he doesn't take a typewriter.

Prabhup─da: So make arrangement, whatever thoughts are coming I am giving you. Ārati is finished?

Śy─masundara: In about two or three minutes. Five. You'll hear a conchshell.

Prabhup─da: Everywhere this class must be there, morning evening class. Either it is festival or temple. If you go on simply festival, you don't require to start many centers.

Śy─masundara: Yeah. Starting more centers is not necessary.

Prabhup─da: No.

Śy─masundara: We have the big cities covered. If people want to go and join us they can go to the big city and join.

Prabhup─da: Because opening center means so much responsibility.

Śy─masundara: So much. Land...

Prabhup─da: So better open. Deity will be there. Just like K┤rtan─nanda Mah─r─ja is doing. Install the deity for one week. You know everything. You have done in Calcutta, Bombay and other. Same thing. You were in Allahabad also?

Devotee: Yes, I was there.

Prabhup─da: Allahabad, Gorakhpur. So same thing. And for persons spiritually inclined, for them this traveling is very good. Traveling means with this occupation. It is very good. You'll be more popular and there will be no difficulty, mind will be steady.

Śy─masundara: It takes away our attachment for everything materially.

Prabhup─da: The Gosv─m┤s, they did not stay underneath a tree for more than one night. So you decide; then you do the needful.

First of all, realize, then challenge.

So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included.


So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-g┤t─ as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.


So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take pras─dam ´that is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa likes R─dh─r─ṇ┤. Therefore all the gop┤s, they're trying to push R─dh─r─ṇ┤ to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuïja-y┗no rati-keli-siddhyai y─ y─libhir yuktir apekṣaṇ┤y─. That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gop┤. All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this."


No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon.


So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? ´first behave yourself perfectly; then teach others to become perfect.


And we hope one day some of our men will become President.

You should fight... No, br─hmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The br─hmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and ś┗dra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.









First realise, then challenge.



































Room Conversation                                     August 25, 1971, London                                                           338957

Prabhup─da: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge. (break) Dharmeṇa h┤n─ḥ paśubhiḥ sam─n─ḥ. That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of frustration because the so-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. And therefore people become, revolted: "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink g─ïj─. You have been R─dh─-D─modara temple? You have seen that Gos─i?

Śy─masundara: Is he still there?

Prabhup─da: Yes. R─dh─-D─modara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to R─dh─-D─modara, managing. Api cet sudar─c─raḥ. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. (break) ...should think that we have got to say so many things to the people. Huh? About this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute.

Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them.

Prabhup─da: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included.

Revat┤nandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice.

Prabhup─da: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. That is Indian śa━kha? That in your hand, bangle, white bangle.

Woman: Ah, elephant?

Prabhup─da: It is called śa━kha. From conchshell, it is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it?

Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory.

Prabhup─da: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell.

Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to...

Prabhup─da: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. A woman... that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śa━kha-sari. A woman dressed śa━kha and sari, śa━kha-sari. They don't require any other ornament. One nice sari and śa━kha. That is Indian conception of woman having husband. That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sari. All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha-gamana. Sat┤. Yes. (break) ...have got enough to preach. People will like it.

Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough.

Prabhup─da: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning. Provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam... Just like my Guru Mah─r─ja explained the first śloka for three months in Dacca. (break) ...after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mah─prabhu explained ─tm─r─ma-śloka in sixty-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Sixty-four ways. Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭ─c─rya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory.

Revat┤nandana: It's nice because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen. They're so degraded. (end)                                           



February 27, 1972 (contd. on February 28, 1972 and February 29, 1972), M─y─pura                                 340841

Bob: I've asked devotees about how they feel towards sex in their relations, and I under..., I see their way they feel, but I can't see myself acting the same way. See, I'll be getting married in this end of this summer.

Prabhup─da: Hmm?

Bob: I'll be getting married the end of this summer, in September or August, when I return to America. And the devotees say that the householders only have sex to conceive a child. And I cannot picture myself at all in such a position, and... What kind of sex life can one lead, living in the material world?

Prabhup─da: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from this material bondage. And there are different attachments for this material enjoyment, out of which sex life is the source of topmost enjoyment. The Bh─gavata says that this material world... Puṁsaḥ striy─ mithun┤-bh─vam etam. Means that a man is attached to woman and woman is attached to man. Not only human society, in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking the association of a woman. Just like we see the, all the fictions, novels, dramas, this cinema, or even ordinary advertisement, simply they depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in tailor's shop you'll find on the window some woman, some man. (break) So this attachment is already there.

Bob: The attachment between man and woman.

Prabhup─da: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣ─ bh┗t─n─ṁ nivṛttis tu mah─-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmac─r┤, no sex life. Brahmac─r┤. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause--a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇ─śrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and ─śrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmac─r┤, gṛhastha, v─naprastha, and sanny─sa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is br─hmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and ś┗dra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śr┤mad-Bh─gavatam that

puṁsaḥ striy─ mithun┤-bh─vam etaṁ

tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim ─huḥ

ato gṛha-kṣetra-sut─pta-vittair

janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti

It is said that this is the basic principle of material life: attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and a woman is united, that attachment becomes increased. And that increased attachment will induce him for gṛha, means home; kṣetra, means land; suta, means children; ─pta, friendship, or society; and vitta, vitta means money. In this way, gṛha-kṣetra-sut─pta-vittaiḥ, he becomes entangled. Janasya moho 'yam. This is the illusion. And by this illusion he becomes ahaṁ mameti, "I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body, that is mine."

Bob: What is that again?

Prabhup─da: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means "I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," this bodily... "This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society." So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life's lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that "If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side..." So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Kṛṣṇa became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Aśocy─n anvaśocas tvaṁ prajï─-v─d─ṁś ca bh─ṣase, that "You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil.

Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Reduce it, just like a boy is trained up as a student up to twenty-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmac─r┤. So, some of the boys they remain naiṣṭhika-brahmac─r┤. He, because he's given education, so if he becomes fully conversant he doesn't like to marry. But one who has not such restraint, he's allowed to marry. That is also restricted, that he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in the human society there is marriage, not in the animal society. But we are reducing human society gradually to animal society. We are forgetting marriage. That is also written in the ś─stras. Sv┤k─ra eva codv─he. In the Kali-yuga there will be no marriage performances, but the boy and the girl, they'll simply agree to live together. D─mpatye 'bhirucir hetuḥ. And their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So on this philosophy... There are many western philosophers like Freud and others. They have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are not interested. We are interested only for begetting children. That's all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already psychology, pravṛtti, natural. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he'll be sexually inclined. There is no need of philosophizing sex life. Nobody is taught sex life in the school and the colleges, but everyone knows it, how to do it. (laughs) So pravṛttir eṣ─ bh┗t─n─ṁ nivṛttis tu mah─-phalam. That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education. (pause)

Bob: That, for today, is a radical concept, for nowadays.

Prabhup─da: Hmm?

Bob: Presently, in America that's a radical concept.

Prabhup─da: Well, in America there are so many things which requires thorough reformation. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. When I went to your country, so I saw these boys and girls, they're living like friends. I said that "You cannot live as friends; you must get yourself married."

Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred. So they find no desire to... Because people get married, and if things are not proper they get divorced so very easy...

Prabhup─da: Yes, that also.

Bob: ...that some people feel to get married is not meaningful.

Prabhup─da: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that, but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that, "Watch...?"

Śy─masundara: Christian..."Watchtower?"

Prabhup─da: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this."

Śy─masundara: You use that example of the cow and the market?

Prabhup─da: Yes, when the milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? (laughter) It is a very abominable condition. In the western countries I have seen. Here also, in India, gradually it is coming to be so. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break) ...movement is especially meant for making human life, reaching the real goal.

Bob: The real goal?

Prabhup─da: The real goal of life.

Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life.

m─m upetya tu kaunteya

duḥkh─layam aś─śvatam

n─pnuvanti mah─tm─naḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ param─ṁ gat─ḥ

That is the version of Bhagavad-g┤t─. "If anyone comes back to Me," m─m upetya kaunteya... M─m upetya tu kaunteya duḥkh─layam aś─śvatam, n─pnuvanti, "he does not come back again." Where? In this place, duḥkh─layam aś─śvatam. This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but he has become fooled, befooled by so-called leaders. This is miserable life, material life. So duḥkh─layam... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that this place is duḥkh─layam, it is a place of miseries. And that also aś─śvatam. You cannot make a compromise, "All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain as American or Indian." No. That you also cannot do. You cannot remain as American. You may think that you are born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot remain as American for long. You'll have to be kicked out of the place, and next life you do not know. Therefore it is duḥkh─layam aś─śvatam. That is our philosophy.

Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable.

Prabhup─da: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo j─n─ti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-g┤t─ as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul?

Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it.

Prabhup─da: Therefore I say, imperfect science.

Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed.

Prabhup─da: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know.


Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality in that...

Prabhup─da: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya. Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have, thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭv─ nivartate. Sometimes we fast, that does mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast.

Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual ...

Prabhup─da: Yes, in full.

Bob: ...taste for different things?

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes?

Prabhup─da: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says, "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe.

Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food.

Prabhup─da: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take.

Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take?

Prabhup─da: That is stated in the ś─stra. You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you... Just like, what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the lawbooks. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the ś─stra. You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhakty─ prayacchati. He says definitely. Positively He says, that "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take pras─dam. Kṛṣṇa likes R─dh─r─ṇ┤. Therefore all the gop┤s, they're trying to push R─dh─r─ṇ┤ to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuïja-y┗no rati-keli-siddhyai y─ y─libhir yuktir apekṣaṇ┤y─. That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gop┤. All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this."

Bob: There is, some pras─dam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different pras─da's are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat.

Prabhup─da: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination that means you have not appreciated what is pras─da. (pause)

Devotee: What if there is someone... This... (Static)... likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some pras─dam...

Prabhup─da: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right.

Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some pras─dam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is...

Prabhup─da: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa pras─dam. Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything.

Devotee: But the devotion is not there. Like in India...

Prabhup─da: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it.

Devotee: In India, somebody said...

Prabhup─da: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not... Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion. That out of... Bhakty─, tad aham aśn─mi. Bhakty─ upahṛtam, real thing is devotion. Not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world. But He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhakty─ prayacchati, tad aham aśn─mi bhakty─ upahṛtam. "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love," that is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand... Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a non-devotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion. That's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasy─sti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcan─ sarvair guṇais tatra sam─sate sur─ḥ. Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Har─v abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇ─ mano-rathen─sati dh─vato bahiḥ. He's on the mental plane. So he has no good qualification. (break) The time?

Śy─masundara: Six o'clock. Twenty more minutes, twenty minutes. (break)

Prabhup─da: It is... Question and Answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the...

Bob: I still have question on the pras─da.

Prabhup─da: S┗ta Gosv─m┤ says, munayaḥ s─dhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-ma━galam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-ma━galam, either by the question or by the answer.

munayaḥ s─dhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ

bhavadbhir loka-ma━galam

yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno

yen─tm─ supras┤dati


Bob: I still have..., do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the pras─dam. But if you like I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About pras─dam.

Prabhup─da: Pras─dam is always pras─dam. So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some pras─dam.

Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach.

Prabhup─da: Well, that is also due to ... not appreciate. But Kṛṣṇa should be... The cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any pras─dam, even if it is spicy. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison and he drank it nectarine. So for the devotee even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. (break) ...she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side; he takes only the good side. (break) He wanted to make business with my Guru Mah─r─ja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that "He has come forward to give me some service. So whatever he wanted he gave him."

Bob: Business with you, what was that? Business with who?

Prabhup─da: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mah─r─ja.

Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) ...question on pras─dam, if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the pras─dam?

Prabhup─da: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything?

Bob: Oh-h.

Prabhup─da: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) ...point?

Bob: Yes.

Prabhup─da: The perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee, I have got discrimination, why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate or digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are... A devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se ba┛a catura. So a devotee knows his position and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. (break) is posted? The... Specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajïa. Yajïa means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad-g┤t─ it is said... So shall I stop this fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb.

Bob: I have a sweater here if you like.

Prabhup─da: No. So good karma means performance of the yajïas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajïa is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma. Bad karma, you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma. So... (microphone noise) ...some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma. You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that?

Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle.

Prabhup─da: Ankle? Oh, there was some... (break)

Bob: ...who is not very aware of God, but...

Prabhup─da: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal.

Bob: What about the people in the...the innocent people?

Prabhup─da: The animal is very innocent. You cut its throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just... To become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se ba┛a catura. So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent.

Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is?

Prabhup─da: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation, he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is... The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent.

Bob: What about a person who does, tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught. But he stays honest anyway, a person like that. Is that some kind of good karma?

Prabhup─da: Yes, to become honest is also good karma. How to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. Daiv┤ sampad and asur┤ sampad. These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. So if you become qualified with the daiv┤ sampad, then daiv┤ sampad vimokṣ─ya, then you'll be liberated. And nibandh─y─sur┤ mat─. And if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant.


Prabhup─da: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper. Hundred rupees, it is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two-paise lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Bob: And then he may not go to hell.

Prabhup─da: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajï─ta-sukṛti. Ajï─ta-sukṛti means doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to act very piously without his knowledge. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad-vicalanaṁ n┬ṇ─ṁ gṛh┤ṇ─ṁ d┤na-cetas─m. D┤na-cetas─m. They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons work(?) just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's study.

Bob: That is what?

Prabhup─da: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing from anyone.


Prabhup─da: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing.

Bob: Is he less of a thief?

Prabhup─da: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal?

Bob: But, maybe it isn't... If I know it is yours and I take it I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it.

Prabhup─da: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody.

Bob: Yeah.

Prabhup─da: How do you take it without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it." Is it not stealing?

Bob: It is stealing.

Prabhup─da: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting... Suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property?

Bob: No.

Prabhup─da: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs you are a thief. So you think, "I'm honest." But factually you are thief. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. You must remember Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities. "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa-deva m┗rti. This is honesty. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber, these qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girir─ja?

Girir─ja: Yes.

Prabhup─da: This is not dogmatism, this is fact. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break) have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty?

Bob: In a way, in a way.

Prabhup─da: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there another way? Girir─ja?

Girir─ja: No.

Prabhup─da: Is there any alternative? To defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?"

Bob: Now...I have none.

Prabhup─da: In London, we had, how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conway Hall?

Gurud─sa: Twelve days. Conway Hall.

Prabhup─da: Conway Hall, yes.

Gurud─sa: Twelve days.

Prabhup─da: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?"

Bob: Did you get many questions?

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter)

Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish?

Prabhup─da: Foolish means who has no knowledge.

Bob: No knowledge.

Prabhup─da: That is foolish. Is it not foolish?

Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes.

Indian man: Prabhup─da, I have one personal question, can I ask?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week. It was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals."

Prabhup─da: Hmm. (Chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness.

Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask...

Prabhup─da: Asking, before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making society.

Bob: Maybe this is...

Prabhup─da: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard.

Śy─masundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Their philosophy is that the animal, when it is not properly nourished that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Like that, theory. Is it not?

Bob: Yes.

Prabhup─da: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much..." That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes.

Śy─masundara: They eat them?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Huh?

Païcadravi┛a: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed.

Prabhup─da: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that "Instead of suffering, just kill him."

Girir─ja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities?

Prabhup─da: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things; therefore you are sinful. Is it not?

Girir─ja: Yes. (pause) But there are some things we're instructed to do...

Prabhup─da: Hmm?

Girir─ja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which even though we try to do we cannot do perfectly yet.

Prabhup─da: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is?

Girir─ja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to...

Prabhup─da: That is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bh─gavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad-g┤t─ also it is said, api cet sudur─c─ro bhajate m─m ananya-bh─k. By, due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit, habit is second nature, he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that, that "I have done this." And should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the m─y─ is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that "I am a devotee, I am chanting. Therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified." That is the greatest offense. (end)


Conversation with Author                              April 1, 1972, Sydney                                                              341487

(break) ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign. Why such a big country, American country, why they should import? But they are obliged to import. They have no workers. Japan's 75% business is done in America. We are not impractical. Because there are so many workers, but they refuse... In Central Park, it is full of rubbish things always. You go. It is a garbage. Why? There is no worker. And on the other side we see so many young men. They are not working, simply idling time. So they do not tackle the real problem. The future is not very hopeful if things go on like this. So many young boys, they are doing nothing. What is the percentage of hippies now in America? A very good percent. All the school colleges. Here also in the university...

Devotee: All the university students.

Prabhup─da: They are all hippies. So what do we expect? They are taking education, and then, after taking education, they don't do anything. This is a problem. And so many illicit children, and the government has to suppy them food, and the welfare, what is called? That welfare department?

Devotee: Social security, welfare.

Prabhup─da: Security. No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon. So you study from that point of view and prepare your journal. Therefore I am talking so many things. This is good material for your writing, practical.

Author: Sir, when somebody joins your movement, when they first come to see your movement, what presents itself to them--men with shaven heads and saffron-colored robes who dance in the street and who sing songs, strange songs--these are strange aspects. And in themselves they are not especially significant to an understanding of the philosophy, are they?

Prabhup─da: No, this is... This chanting and dancing is for mass of people, but when you want to discuss philosophy, we have got volumes of books. Yes. Both things we have got. We are attracting both the intelligent class of men and the mass of people, even the children.

Author: Now, sir, I think you agree that when... If you agree that this is the first thing that people generally see of your movement, then surely, if I am to write a book in which I am to describe the movement, it is necessary for me to describe some of the...

Prabhup─da: But if he is actually, anyone wants to see, so he should see our books also, magazines also. Why does he not see? We, our, send our boys in the streets with books. If you are not liking this saffron dress and dancing, why don't you read the books?

Author: No. I don't think you take my point. What I am saying is that... Let us imagine that the reader who picks up the book, this book that I am going to write, I hope, is very much like a person who sees the devotees dancing in the street, because he is seeing something for the first time. Now, it's necessary, surely, to describe the external and superficial features.

Prabhup─da: It is not superficial. This dancing is spiritual ecstasy. Otherwise it is not a dog's dance. You see? Any gentleman, if I ask you, "Please dance on this footpath," will you agree? It is not that dancing. You don't compare with that dancing. It is not dog's dance. They chant, they feel, they dance. That is another thing. You try to understand it. If they are coming from respectable families... Now, here is a boy. He is a professor. So if I ask him, "Please go and dance on the footpath," will he agree? A professor will agree? But when a professor dances, there is something. You should understand.

Author: Sir, I'm not saying that the dancing is meaningless. I was saying that when one sees people dancing, that doesn't mean anything.

Prabhup─da: That does not mean to you.

Author: That's what I mean.

Prabhup─da: But it means to them.

Author: Yes. No. I'm not saying that it's meaningless. I'm saying that it appears to be meaningless in the same way that one should wonder why he has his head shaven and why he wears those clothes. If one doesn't understand, these things are...

Prabhup─da: At least, they can take by shaving head means it cleans, cleanses. The head is not overburdened with unnecessary... (laughter) We want clear brain, and that is the system, Vedic system. All learned scholars, they cleanse head. Cleanse head. Yes. And at least we get relief. A little hair growing is also burdensome. We cleanse. So it is personal convenience. So that is not the point of preaching.

Author: No. But, sir, I see... I don't... I think it would be very difficult to explain the meaning of having a bald head, and by saying somebody's got a bald head, the reason for this is, there seems to be some cleanliness and so on, and to explain why people wear clothes like this. It's impossible surely to explain the reasons for these things without describing them in the first place.

Prabhup─da: Explain... Any group of men, they have got a particular type of dress, the military dress, the police dress. So people can understand that "Here is a police." Similarly, by this dress they will chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" immediately. That is our experience. As soon as they will see these people, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and if they will criticize our, anything, we want that people see us and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That we want. Simply by seeing us they will remember Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is great advancement. Indirectly that is our propaganda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.


Room Conversation                                       April 7, 1972, Melbourne                                                         341694

Impersonalist: Can Kṛṣṇa be called by any other name?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means... Kṛṣṇa's name is given according to His office. Just like a person at home, he is "father," and in the court he is "my lord," the same man. Same man, high court judge, his wife is calling him by name, "John." His son is calling the same man, "father." His brother is calling the same man, "brother." And the same man, when he goes to the court, he is called "my lord." So these names are in connection with his service. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So He can have many millions of names. Because He is unlimited, He has got unlimited business also. So He can be called according to that name, according to that business. But this name, Kṛṣṇa, is the best because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive.

Impersonalist: Means?

Prabhup─da: All-attractive. Just like the same man; he is attracting his son; he is attracting his wife; he is attracting his servant; he is attracting in the court his client. So many ways he is attracting. Therefore somebody is calling him "father," somebody "husband," somebody this, somebody this. So if there is one name, that is Kṛṣṇa, "All-attractive." He attracts all. This is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And if God is not all-attractive, then how He can be God?

Impersonalist: What is the meaning of R─ma?

Prabhup─da: R─ma. R─ma is enjoyer. Ramante yogino 'nante. Yog┤s, they want eternal enjoyment. Here in this material world you can enjoy something for some few minutes or few hours, but if you want eternal enjoyment, ramaṇa, then R─ma, that is R─ma. (break) Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Neither by reading so many books because each book is written in a different way. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ n─sau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. If you consult philosophers, then everyone will give you a different opinion.

Impersonalist: They could be saying the same thing, even though they are saying different things.

Prabhup─da: Maybe same thing, but you will be puzzled by the different opinion. Therefore you have to take the path of great personalities. So we are following Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya chanted this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are following, and we are getting result. That's all. We don't manufacture our own way because we are imperfect. We cannot manufacture. That will not be beneficial.

Impersonalist: Why is it that this mah─mantra is so attractive to Western countries and not particularly...

Prabhup─da: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the ś─stra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the ś─stra, spoken in the ś─stra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it--fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pram─ṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pram─ṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the ś─stra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bh─gavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful. That is stated in Bh─gavata. Five thousand years this prediction is there: "In this Kali-yuga people will keep long hair, and..., because that will be appreciated, that a man keeping long hair is very beautiful." So that is happening. Just see. Five thousand years ago, that was written, and that is happening. There are so many things. That is called ś─stra. It is truth for all the days--past, present, future. D─mpatye ratim eva hi. These things are stated. "Husband and wife will keep together so long their sex power is strong. Otherwise they will divorce." This is written. Sv┤k─ram eva hi udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." According to Vedic system, marriage is a long program. The father of the girl and the boy first of all select. Then their horoscope should be consulted, how they will mix together, and then the family, then personal qualification, so many things... Then dowry... After all this consideration, when everything is satisfactory, then the father and mother of both sides will agree, and they will be married. That is marriage. Now, at the present moment in Kali-yuga, it is said, sv┤k─ram eva hy udvahe. Boys and girls will loiter in the street and two of them, as they agree, "Yes, we will live together." That's all. Bas. This is stated. And that is happening. So this is called ś─stra. Five thousand years ago, what was predicted, that is now happening. Therefore we give so much stress on the ś─stra that it is perfect. There is no mistake. If you write one book, I write one book, because we are imperfect, it is all imperfect.

Impersonalist: What about Buddha? Would you say that he is good?

Śy─masundara: Buddha, Lord Buddha.

Prabhup─da: Yes. About Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the ś─stra that Lord Buddha will appear in Gay─ Pradesh, in the province of Gay─, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how he is cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don't believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that "Yes, there is no God. You hear me." But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don't believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, "We don't believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha." And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bh─gavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dviṣ─m. Sammohita-sura-dviṣ─m. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahiṁs─. "Don't kill." That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that "Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities." Lord Buddha appeared... He also appeared in India. Why? He was also Hindu. He was kṣatriya, king. He promulgamated this philosophy, ahiṁs─, when there was unnecessary killing of animals. According to Vedas, animal can be killed in sacrifice. That also to give a new life. But people misinterpreted and they began to kill animals like anything with the evidence of..., "In the Vedas animal killing is sanctioned." So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-gh─tam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion--ahiṁs─ paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy. Therefore Buddha philosophy has gone outside India--China, Burma, Japan--because here in India they are very strong in the standing of Vedas. Śa━kar─c─rya established that "This Buddha philosophy is non-Vedic. It cannot be accepted." That was Śa━kar─c─rya's propaganda. So by the propaganda of Śa━kar─c─rya the Buddhism were driven away. There are so many things that one has to study. So Lord Buddha, we accept him as the incarnation of God. And his name is mentioned in the Śr┤mad-Bh─gavata. And his business is also mentioned: sammohitaṁ sura-dviṣ─m. His business is to cheat the atheist class of men. That cheating is not cheating. It is for the good. Just like the father sometimes cheats the small child. You see? So that does not mean father is cheater. "Well, he has got some business to do that. That's all." So when I say Lord Buddha cheated, we don't mean that Lord Buddha was a cheater like ordinary man. No. He had to accept some means to lead them to God worship. He is God. So all the Buddhists... I have seen in Japan. Their temple is as good as Hindu temple. They have got Lord Buddha's statue. They offer lamps, and they sit down. They read Buddha philosophy. It is exactly Hindu temple.

Impersonalist: And what is predicted for this age?

Prabhup─da: This side is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra--not only this side, all over the world. That is prediction of Lord Caitanya: "In every village, every town of the world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra will be chanted." That is the beginning.


Room Conversation(2)                                      April 22, 1972, Japan                                                            341933

Cint─maṇi: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa wears tilaka like we do? Śr┤la Prabhup─da?

Prabhup─da: Yes. R─dh─r─ṇ┤ only red spot.

Sud─m─: We have some...

Prabhup─da: Any other questions?

Sud─m─: Yes.

Bh─nu: Śr┤la Prabhup─da? Since we are going to have three altars, then we should also have three different plates, a different plate for each altar?

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is already known to you. Bh─nu knows very well. You have seen in Los Angeles. Why three plates? If you can spare more plates for each, that will be nice. Just like one for R─dh─ and for Kṛṣṇa, one for Jagann─tha, one for Balar─ma, one for Subhadr─, one for guru, one for Gaur─━ga, Païca-tattva, five. If you can increase, you can manage, that is nice. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient. If you cannot spare. If you can spare, you can increase as many plates as you can. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient.

Devotee: On ek─daś┤, we can offer the Deity grains?

Prabhup─da: Oh yes. But not guru. Ek─daś┤ observed by j┤va-tattva, not by Viṣṇu-tattva. We are fasting for clearing our material disease, but R─dh─-Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mah─prabhu... Caitanya Mah─prabhu also may not be offered grains because He is playing the part of a devotee. Only R─dh─-Kṛṣṇa, Jagann─tha can be offered grains. Otherwise, Guru-Gaur─━ga, no. And the pras─dam should not be taken by anyone. It should be kept for next day. What is that?

Cint─maṇi: I tried to make a flute for Kṛṣṇa because He doesn't have a flute. Is that okay?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Sud─m─: We will order one flute from India.

Prabhup─da: Why India? You can get it here. Any goldsmith can do.

Bh─nu: In the morning the Deity should be woken up not before five? The Deities should be woken up at five in the morning? Some temples it is 4:30, some temples five.

Prabhup─da: Just one and a half hours before sunrise. If the sunrise varies, then the waking time also should vary.

Sud─m─: So according to season, we should...

Prabhup─da: The rule is that one and a half hours before sunrise. So that you have to make, when the sunrise, then just one and a half hour before, ma━gala-─rati.

Sud─m─: So that's when the ─rati begins, when the curtains are opened and we start offering.

Prabhup─da: Hm?

Sud─m─: One and a half hours before sunrise is when the ─rati begins. Then you wake them up before.

Prabhup─da: No, no. Just waking, ─rati begins. And you can offer something.

Bh─nu: We should offer the plate after the ─rati?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Devotee: After.

Devotee: Is it all right for the Deities' hair to show?

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Devotee: Sometimes, at some temples, the R─dh─-Kṛṣṇa Deities, sometimes Their hair shows.

Prabhup─da: Shows?

Devotee: Yes. Like R─dh─r─ṇ┤'s hair is down in front. Is that all right?

Prabhup─da: That doesn't matter. That is for beauty, as it is possible. Better keep it that side. Just like R─dh─r─ṇ┤'s hair... There is picture. That gop┤s, they have got their hair that side. R─dh─r─ṇ┤ is also one of the gop┤s, but she is the dearmost gop┤. That's all. Otherwise, she is also gop┤. Then? What else?

Sud─m─: Bh─nu had a question about something.

Bh─nu: Does evening ─rati vary according to the sunset? Or it is just...

Prabhup─da: No. Sunset.


(break) People should be called.

Sud─m─: So we should take the Deity pras─dam and our pras─dam and go to all the houses?

Prabhup─da: No no. You invite them, that "Anyone, you are welcome. Take pras─dam." We can announce. Then you can judge how many people are coming daily. You should announce that "Anyone can come and take pras─dam at noon." It is the duty of a gṛhastha to loudly cry, "If anyone is hungry, please come. We have got still food." That is the duty of a gṛhastha. If one does not come, then the chief of the house, he takes pras─da. If somebody says, "I am hungry," so he should offer his own food. "You eat." This is duty of gṛhastha. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ p─p─ ye pacanti. Those who are cooking for themselves, they are simply eating sinful things. That's all. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ p─p─ ye pacanty ─tma-k─raṇ─t. So hospitality is one of the duties of the householder. Atithi. Atithi means guest without any information. That is called atithi. Tithi means date. So if I go to your house, I inform you that "Such and such date I am coming there." But atithi, he does not inform you, all of a sudden comes. So you should have to receive him. That is called atithi. P─ntha. People are moving... Formerly, if some of the walkers in the street, suppose he has become hungry, so he enters anyone's house. So "I am hungry sir. Give me something to eat." He'll immediately, "Take." P─ntha-bh─ga. There is a stock of foodstuff which is called p─ntha-bh─ga. If somebody comes all of a sudden, he should take.

Pradyumna: The temple should always have some pras─dam there?

Prabhup─da: Temple must have. Even ordinary gṛhastha. That is Vedic civilization, not that we cook for ourself, for my husband, for my wife and children, eat it sumptuously and go to bed. No. Even gṛhastha, he should be always prepared to receive guest. Yes. And even a guest comes, your enemy, you should receive him in such a nice way that he will forget that you are all enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api pr─ptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Vedic civilization, not that "Beware of dog. Please don't enter here. You are forbidden to come here. And if you come, I shall shoot you." Sometimes they do that. This is not human civilization. It is cats' and dogs' civilization. So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? If I am like cats and dogs, I cannot criticize others as cats and dogs. I must be first of all human being. Then I shall teach others how to become human being. I must become first of all devotee. Then I shall request others to become devotee. Āpani ─cari j┤ve śikh─il─ bhakti. First behave yourself perfectly; then teach others to become perfect. That is preacher. Now we are selling The Process of Creation but if I do not know what is the process of creation, we do not read, if you go to sell some book, then if he says, "What is the process of creation? You explain," and if you say, "All right, let me consult my book..." Kuto gata vedyaḥ para-hasta-gataṁ dh─nam. Para-hasta-gataṁ dh─nam means, "I have got enough wealth." "Where it is?" "It is in other hands. It is not in my possession, in others' possession." This kind of possessing wealth has no value. Similarly, when somebody asks you some question, if you say, "Let me consult my book," that knowledge has no value. "Let me consult my book." So all these books are there. You see one śloka studying, knowing. It takes one hour. So there are millions of ślokas. How much you have to study. So these things are to be noted. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means perfection, all round perfection. Then people will much appreciate. There is no doubt about it. And we can go anywhere, everywhere, because we are pure. We are giving the right thing. So is there any artist here who can draw? You can?

Room Conversation                                      June 29, 1972, San Diego                                                          342536

Prabhup─da: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body--already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yeth─ deoy─ bhange, kap─la y─be sa━ge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mah─prabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bh─ratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

bh─rata-bh┗mite haila manuṣya-janma y─ra

janma s─rthaka kari kara para-upak─ra

To do good to others, para-upak─ra. So those Indians who are here, it is all right you are earning for some economic development, but at the same time, you try to make your life perfect by Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it to the foreigners as far as possible. That's your duty, not that, that you are getting decent salary than India, and enjoy life and forget your culture. That is suicidal. You have got a culture... So this culture is Vedic culture and Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa conscious. As it is said in the Bhagavad-g┤t─, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ. Vedic culture means to understand Kṛṣṇa. One who has not understood Kṛṣṇa, he has no Vedic culture. But every Indian is supposed to have Vedic culture. And to have Vedic culture means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all Indians, they should cultivate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness personally, make their life successful, and distribute it to the, our neighbors. Of course, I do not think... If you invite your neighbors, they do not come, you said?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Obviously, they have got some other work, this, that.

Prabhup─da: Hm. But anyway, because you are living in this country, you must have some friends. Whenever you talk with your friends, you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste your time in other ways. That will be beneficial for you and for your friends. And before talking about Kṛṣṇa, you should know about Kṛṣṇa. And you can know about Kṛṣṇa very easily by understanding Bhagavad-g┤t─. So read Bhagavad-g┤t─ thoroughly. Try to understand it and you can distribute it. That is a great service to Kṛṣṇa, to your personal self, and to the person you are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. And four principles of impious life, as it is accepted by our Vedic followers, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That will give you strength and over and above that, if you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... You can chant. It is not difficult. There is no loss. You can chant. That will give you spiritual strength. And in this way try to become spiritually powerful and serve Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter. Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. He is the proprietor everywhere. So if you be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so wherever you may be, you'll be with Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you remain with Kṛṣṇa, you are not living within this material world. You are living in the spiritual world. So, especially I request Indians, as it is ordered by Caitanya Mah─prabhu, that bh─rata-bh┗mite haila manuṣya-janma y─ra: "Anyone who has taken birth on the holy land of Bh─ratavarṣa, India," janma s─rthaka kari, "just make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and preach it." This is Caitanya Mah─prabhu's order. So if you take it you'll be happy, your neighbors will be happy, the world will be happy. And Kṛṣṇa-kath─ means to present Kṛṣṇa as He is. Don't misinterpret by us..., just like some rascals do. Even a great scholar known all over the world practically in scholarly circle, he has practically vilified Kṛṣṇa by his so-called scholarship. Now he's suffering. He has lost himself, we have practically seen. So that is a great offense, to vilify saintly persons or God. That's great offense. So read Bhagavad-g┤t─ as it is, present it as it is. Then your life is successful. Now, if you have got any question we can discuss.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, the four principles you were telling about, are they for purposes of just other-worldliness or is it for material gains in this world or what?

Prabhup─da: No. We belong to the other world actually. We spirit soul, we belong to the spiritual world. Just like fish belongs to the water. Fish does not belong to the land. So if the fish is brought from the water to the land, it cannot be comfortable at any stage. It will die. Similarly you are Brahman, part and parcel of Brahman, particle of Brahman. So unless you return to Brahman, you cannot be happy.

Guest (2): But if we look at the world as it is today we'll find that people who are the most powerful in this world are those who...

Prabhup─da: Who is powerful? First of all let us see who is powerful.

Guest (2): Like United States, like Soviet Union. There is no other power in this world who can...

Prabhup─da: What do you mean by powerful? Then President Nixon is not afraid of anything, do you think?

Guest (2): He personally may not, may be afraid of something, but as a country, yes, it's very powerful. The whole world is afraid of them.

Prabhup─da: Well, President Nixon means this country. Why he went to China? Why he went to Russia? He's also afraid. If there is war there will be great calamity. So everyone is afraid. Everyone is under the control of the laws of nature. Everyone is hungry. So actually nobody's powerful in this material world. Even if he's powerful, it is for temporary. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Churchills and others came and gone. There was powerful British Empire, powerful Roman Empire. So nobody's powerful. That's a wrong idea. In due course of time everything will be kicked out and finished. That is the law of nature.

Guest (2): Yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that it seems to me that if you carefully look at the world history during the past...

Prabhup─da: World history is that history repeats itself. Everything comes into existence and then vanquished.

Guest (2): No, that's not what I mean. What I meant is that during the past two thousand years, whoever was very powerful was who was doing all these four things which we are, which you are suggesting that we should give up, you see.

Prabhup─da: But I say that my challenge is nobody's powerful. That is my challenge.

Guest (2): I mean...

Prabhup─da: You mean, but that is not the fact.

Guest (2): It's a fact, I mean, when they are powerful they rule the whole earth.

Prabhup─da: Where is your Hitler? Where is your Mussolini? Where is Napoleon?

Guest (2): Yes, Hitler is gone, but then we have that U.S., you see. If tomorrow U.S. goes, maybe there will be Soviet Union.

Prabhup─da: So that means everyone will come into power for some days; then it will be finished. That's all.

Guest (2): Yeah, but all the people who are getting into the power are people who are having these four vices, you know, and...

Prabhup─da: Therefore their power is finished. If you become sinful, then your power will not exist. Just like R─vaṇa became powerful. He was so powerful that he dared to take away S┤t─. But he also became vanquished. That is the history.

Guest (2): Yes but people say that...

Prabhup─da: People say, that is other... You see the fact. Nobody is powerful; nobody can exist here. For the temporary, say for some years, you may be so-called powerful but it is not powerful. We are concerned with eternal life. We are not interested in the so-called power for a few days. That is not our aim.

Guest (2): Yes, but if we say that everything is destined, like the moment your body is manufactured and...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Guest (2): ...everything is destined, then we are probably as well destined to be Kṛṣṇa conscious or to be non-Kṛṣṇa conscious, you know.

Prabhup─da: No. That destiny can change. Ś─stra says... Destined means so far you're... Suppose you are to get, say, one thousand dollars per month. That you'll get. You try for it or don't try for it, you'll get. Therefore we should not waste our time for getting one thousand dollars. We should utilize the time for developing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is our philosophy.

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido

na labhyate yad bhramat─m upary adhaḥ

tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ

k─lena sarvatra gabh┤ra-raṁhas─

Just like nobody tries for becoming unhappy, but unhappiness comes. Nobody tries, that "Let me become unhappy." But people become unhappy. Why? He does not try for it. Similarly, that happiness also, even if you don't try for it, it will come. So ś─stra says, "You don't bother yourself for worldly happiness or unhappiness. Whatever you are destined, you'll get it. You try for develop your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which in other life, in the animal life, you could not do." In the animal... (break) ...advised... If the animal is advised that, "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious," he cannot do it. He has no power. But a man can do it. Therefore the man's main business should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for so-called economic development. Economic development will come automatically, what you are destined to have. This is our philosophy. We don't try for any economic development. All our members, we have no concern what we shall eat tomorrow, although we haven't got any source of income. We are pushing this movement all over the world. We have got about one hundred branches and similar devotees are there, each branch, not less than twenty-five. What is that?

Devotee (3): Twenty in San Diego.

Prabhup─da: Twenty. And about two hundred somewhere. And in America you know the expenditure. We are living in the best part of the city. But we have no source of income. We take some books, some incense, but there is no guarantee that it will be sold. So it is not a book of technology, general demand--Kṛṣṇa book. So if somebody's kindly interested in Kṛṣṇa, he'll purchase. So we are living in this way, depending on Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's supplying all necessities. We have got seventy thousand dollar expenditure per month. So this is practical. We don't try for getting any job or any business. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. But our main business is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness and follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are... There is no problem for us. To collect seventy thousand dollars and spend every month, do you think is very easy job? A big government is concerned, or a big company, to collect seventy thousand dollars and distribute it again. It is a big problem. So how... We are increasing our centers. Practically every month, two, one, two. And we have got huge expenditure. But Kṛṣṇa is supplying. So we should see the example, be confident, depend on Kṛṣṇa and then everything is all right. Kṛṣṇa is powerful. He's omnipresent. He knows better than me. Our business is to satisfy Him. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharm─n parityajya m─m ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So we are preaching this, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa said. The same thing we are saying. We are not manufacturing it. Why should we manufacture? The words are already there. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We simply... Just like I have come to your place. What am I speaking? I am speaking that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious." We don't talk of any economic problem, political problem. We don't talk.

Guest (2): How can you separate out economics, politics...

Prabhup─da: There is no separation. Kṛṣṇa is the all-inclusive. Economic problem means eating, sleeping, mating or getting some money. So we are getting money. I have already given you account.

Guest (2): Yes, but... No. As far as ISKCON is concerned, maybe that is true. But supposing if you take an individual devotee, see, who is married and has a family and all that... He cannot...

Prabhup─da: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmac─r┤s are there, sanny─s┤s are there--everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, br─hmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, ś┗dra, or brahmac─r┤, gṛhastha, v─naprastha, sanny─sa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Guest (2): What are the kṣatriyas of this order supposed to doing now?

Prabhup─da: They are taking to politics. Yes.

Guest (2): Whom are they fighting? Whom are they going to fight?

Prabhup─da: No, some of our members, they are standing for election in the government. Election. And we hope one day some of our men will become President. That is kṣatriya's business, to take part in administration.

Guest (2): No fighter? No fighting? They are not going to fight? They're not going to become warriors, not like the real kṣatriyas.

Prabhup─da: Well, when you take part in politics you have to fight. (laughter) Yes.

Guest (2): I don't mean that. I mean muṣṭi fighting.

Prabhup─da: Well, if required, muṣṭi fight will be there. Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. He was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Guest (2): Yes. But what I'm basically asking is what are these kṣatriyas going to fight with?

Prabhup─da: Kṣatriya fought... Why don't you take the case of Arjuna? He was a kṣatriya. He fought for Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Yes, but in those days, you see, there is some kind of a clear cut...

Prabhup─da: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life.

Guest (2): Okay.Then the question is whom shall we fight now? Okay, supposing we are all...

Prabhup─da: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes.

Guest (2): Fight in a real..., sword, fight with swords?

Prabhup─da: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord R─macandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Dev─sura-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of s─dhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight.

Guest (2): Yes but if that is the case, you see, then the Muslim Mullah, or whatever you may call, says, "Fight all non-Muslims."

Prabhup─da: Well, Muslim... It is not the question of Muslims and Hindus. When there is right cause for fighting...

Guest (2): But what I mean is a Muslim Mullah can say all non...

Prabhup─da: Well, why you are making...? We are talking of philosophy. That is applicable to the Muslim or to the Hindus or everyone. When there is right cause of fight, one must fight. This is philosophy.

Guest (2): Yes but what is the basis on which you decide whether a cause is right or wrong? There should be a common basis. You see.

Prabhup─da: Just like aggressor. Aggressor. Just like you are living in this room. If somebody enters your room and attacks your wife, you must fight. You immediately kill him. That is the law. This is fight. You cannot see your wife being insulted before you. You must fight. You must kill him. That is the law. Aggressor.

Guest (2): Does this apply to the br─hmaṇas?

Prabhup─da: You should fight... No, br─hmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The br─hmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and ś┗dra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

Guest (2): How do you define a br─hmaṇa?

Prabhup─da: The brain.

Guest (2): That is for a man, but...

Prabhup─da: That is for everything. The brain of the society should be br─hmaṇa.

Guest (2): By brain what do you mean?

Prabhup─da: What do you mean, that you learn. You come to our school. Then you learn. You cannot learn everything in one minute.

Guest (2): (laughs) No.

Prabhup─da: Then you just hear. Don't make yourself laughing stock.

Guest (2): No, what I mean is br─hmaṇa means by birth or by action or...

Prabhup─da: No, no. Not by birth. By action.

Guest (2): By action only.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Guest (2): You don't recognize br─hmaṇas by birth, then.

Prabhup─da: No no. Then how they are becoming br─hmaṇas? They are not by birth br─hmaṇa? Why don't you see yourself? They are br─hmaṇa.

Guest (2): So if there is a br─hmaṇa by birth, if he doesn't...

Prabhup─da: No, there is no br─hmaṇa by birth. That is not sanctioned by the ś─stra.

Guest (2): Oh, I see. So there is no real br─hmaṇa by birth.

Prabhup─da: No. There is no... That is not sanctioned by the ś─stra. That is artificial.

Guest (2): I see. So according to you...

Prabhup─da: Br─hmaṇas means by quality. He must have the brahminical quality, then he's br─hmaṇa.

Guest (2): So under these principles then, there are no br─hmaṇas in India, really, then.

Prabhup─da: Yes. At the... Not only...

Guest (2): Not all the br─hmaṇas who are supposed to be br─hmaṇas.

Prabhup─da: Yes. We... Our... This philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to the Bhagavad-g┤t─ and Bh─gavata, we don't accept br─hmaṇa by birth. We accept br─hmaṇa by quality. C─tur-varṇyaṁ may─ sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibh─gaśaḥ. Quality and work.

Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a ś┗dra?

Prabhup─da: Ś┗dra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is ś┗dra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a ś┗dra. A br─hmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A ś┗dra... Paricary─tmakaṁ karma ś┗drasy─pi svabh─va-jam. They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is ś┗dra.

Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all ś┗dras.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is the statement of the ś─stra. Kalau ś┗dra-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is ś┗dra."

Guest (2): :So only those who have independent means, then, would come in the...

Prabhup─da: They can be counted, yes. Because a br─hmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the ś─stra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the ś┗dra. That is br─hmaṇa.

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a ś┗dra.

Prabhup─da: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. I have not manufactured these things. These are ś─stra, that "He's br─hmaṇa,"--the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"--qualification. "He's vaiśya,"--qualification. "He's ś┗dra--by qualification." And N─rada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇ─bhivyaïjakam, yad anyatr─pi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a br─hmaṇa family, but if he has got the ś┗dra qualities, then he should be ś┗dra. And a man born of a ś┗dra family, if he has got the qualities of br─hmaṇa, then he must be designated as br─hmaṇa.

Guest (2): What about intermarriage between all the castes?

Prabhup─da: Well, intermarriage, that has introduced according to the social system. But so far we are concerned, we are allowing intermarriage from any country, any... If he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, we help him marry. There are so many intermarriages in our society. So try to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it so that there will be oneness--one God, one scripture, one nation, one religion--according to Vedic injunction. Not that we are manufacturing something. That is the Vedic injunction.

Guest (2): What is the speciality of Vedic injunction compared to Hebrew scriptures?

Prabhup─da: Vedic injunction is, the ultimate goal of human life, to go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. This is not... As... I have already explained that this is not our home, material world. We are spirit soul. Our real home is spiritual world. So in the lives, different species of life, 8,400,000's of species of life, they cannot understand it, that we are spirit soul, our home is in the spiritual world. They cannot understand it. That opportunity is available in this human form of life. Therefore if we don't take advantage of this information and prepare ourself accordingly, then we are losing the opportunity. Tad api aphala-janma. An─śrita govinda-caraṇa-dvayam.(?)

Guest (2): But how does this differ from the Hebrew scriptures? Hebrews also say the same thing, you know, that you have fallen down from the heaven and go back...

Prabhup─da: But Hebrew... Hebrew, Indian, there are... The aims is the same--back to home, back to Godhead. The process may be different. The process may be different. Just like everyone wants some money. Without money he cannot exist. The process may be different, how he's earning money. Similarly, every religion, the aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Now the process may be different according to country, time, climate, men. That is another thing. But the... The same example. Either you are businessman or in service or working, craftsman, the aim is you require some money. Without money you cannot exist. This is crude example. Similarly, the aim is we are part and parcel of God. We... Unless we go back to home, back to Godhead, there cannot be any peace. That understanding is possible to develop in this human form of life, not in the animal form of life. Therefore every human being should take advantage of this human form of life and develop this idea of going back to home, back to Godhead. Either you do it through Hebrew religion or Christian religion or Hindu religion, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If your aim is... Just like at the present moment people want money. If he gets money it doesn't matter in which way he gets the money. Money we must have. Similarly, the aim should be fulfilled. Either you fulfill it through the Hebrew or through Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, it doesn't matter. But if the aim is missed, then you miss everything. That is the definition in the Śr┤mad-Bh─gavata,

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁs─ṁ

viṣvaksena-kath─su yaḥ

notp─dayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

Everyone has got his particular type of religion or occupation. That's all right. Dharma. Svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁs─m. The result will be... By executing your particular type of religion, the result must be there. The result is "How I shall go back to home, back to Godhead." If that desire is not developed, it is simply waste of time. You may profess this religion or that religion or this religion, or that religion. It doesn't matter. You are simply wasting time by following the dogmas and ritualistic this or that. That will not help you. Phalena paric┤yate. Whether you have come to this consciousness, "What I am? I am not matter; I am spirit. I have to go back to my spiritual." That... That is wanted. So either you may be Hebrew or may be Hindu or Christian. We want to see whether that consciousness has arisen. If it is not, then you have simply wasted time. Either you be Hindu or br─hmaṇa or this or that, it doesn't matter. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply wasting time.


Room Conversation                             September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas                                               343514

Prabhup─da: Br─hmaṇas means qualified br─hmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibh─gaśaḥ. C─tur-varṇyaṁ may─ sṛṣṭam. There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of br─hmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

Śy─masundara: All over Texas.

Prabhup─da: Huh?

Guest (2): Fort Worth.

Śy─masundara: Where we went to that television show today, that was Fort Worth. That's another city. They have more slaughterhouses.

Guest (2): I had some arguments about this. Some people won't eat cow. They say, "It's not Indian cow, so we can eat it." (laughs) All kinds of intelligent arguments.

Prabhup─da: Indian people say like that?

Guest (2): Some of them, not all. It's not said, anybody. It's just argument of people that... Even Americans. People, they say, "We are not killing your sacred cow because your sacred cow is in your country." It was long ago, I remember. During lunch break we had some argument.

Prabhup─da: Then what are these? American cows?

Guest (2): Yes. They said, "Our cows are not holy."

Prabhup─da: Apaśyat─m ─tma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhin─m. They are blind. They do not know about self. Apaśyat─m ─tma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhin─m. Par─bhavas t─vad abodha-j─to y─van na jijï─sata ─tma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, par─bhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, par─bhava.


Morning Walk                                             April 21, 1973, Los Angeles                                                        344898

Svar┗pa D─modara: (Hindi) ...Bhav─nanda Mah─r─ja, Sud─m─ Mah─r─ja, very nice. (pause) Everyone was dancing.

Prabhup─da: They have discovered one watch machine. You have seen that? You can, you can immediately know what is the time where all the important places.

Brahm─nanda: By a dial?

Prabhup─da: No, by electricity.

Karandhara: Yes. It has a dial on it. You turn the dial and it tells you the time in different places... (pause)

Prabhup─da: In Vṛnd─vana, there is a place called Nidhuvana.

Devotee: Nidhuvana?

Prabhup─da: Nidhuvana. So that was a place... Still people go to visit. So one Bhagav─n d─sa B─b─j┤, he was chanting, and in the middle of his chanting he made (makes sound with hands like clapping) like this. So his disciples... (pause) Yes. His disciples asked him: "Sir, why did you (makes clapping sound) do like this?" "So there was a goat entered Nidhuvana. So I drove it away." So where is that machine by which you can see...? It is not the time, but see the activities of everywhere? But that is possible. Yes.

Brahm─nanda: Oh, even though he did not see the goat, he knew it was there.

Prabhup─da: No, he's seeing. Otherwise, how does he (makes sound) "Hut, hut, hut." He's seeing. Where is that machine? So this Darwin's theory says that there was no intelligent man or brain but how these books were written, thousands and thousands of years ago? These Vedic ś─stras. If there were no intelligent brain? Vy─sadeva, like Vy─sadeva. Before Vy─sadeva also, other great sages, they compiled...

Brahm─nanda: They have no explanation.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Brahm─nanda: They have no explanation.

Devotee: Śr┤la Prabhup─da, I think it's easier here.

Brahm─nanda: They have no explanation for the author who, of the Vedic literatures. They say: "unknown forest sages."

Prabhup─da: Unknown, it may be unknown, but the things are there. Where from they got the brain? That is our question. It may be unknown to you, or unknown to me, but the brain work is there. The philosophy is there, and the... At least, the language, the poetic arrangement, the linguistic strength, everything is there. So you may not know the person, but you can understand the brain. Just like...

Brahm─nanda: They think our brain is increasing, but actually we see it decreasing. Because we cannot duplicate that...

Prabhup─da: Yes. Not only duplicate. You cannot even understand properly. Do you... To understand the Vedic philosophy, you have to tax your brain. Just like Bhagavad-g┤t─. Take, for Bhagavad-g┤t─. It is accepted as a great book of philosophy all over the world. And... Now wherefrom this brain came out. Apart from accepting Kṛṣṇa as God, take it, the language, take the language, the philosophy, the thoughts. How great they are. Now how can you say that people had no higher brain. Within hundred years everything has grown up. All these rascals. What is the Darwin's age?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Darwin says the, he says in his history of the origin, he cannot trace completely.

Prabhup─da: Whatever he has traced, what is the history of that tracing history? Tracing age?

Svar┗pa D─modara: So he started that life started from very primitive, different primitive forms...

Prabhup─da: No, no, no. What is the time of Darwin. Which year he was a professor?

Svar┗pa D─modara: The theory started in 1859, about...

Prabhup─da: 1859. So hundred years ago. So all the brains developed within hundred years. All these rascals came out within hundred years. And before that, there was no other rascal. Just see the fun. All the scientific improvement, anthropology, everything came within hundred or two hundred years.

Brahm─nanda: Yeah.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Brahm─nanda: Yes. That is their idea.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Before that, there were no brain.

Brahm─nanda: 'Cause they didn't understand his theory.

Prabhup─da: Just see.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Because before that, they're thinking that there's no intelligent person...

Prabhup─da: That, that, I am pointing out, that all intelligent persons, during the British Empire, they came out. The whole aim was to defy the Indian civilization.

Karandhara: They call it the "Age of Enlightenment."

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Karandhara: After the fifteenth century, they call it the "Age of Enlightenment."

Prabhup─da: So the Britishers, they wanted to rule over India, and they were advertising, at least in India, that: "We are making you civilized. Before British rule, the Indians were rude, primitive natives." That's all. That is their propaganda. The whole propaganda was to make the Indians known that: "We are giving you life and civilization. Before this, you were not even human beings." That is their propaganda. So they accept this literature, but they date within one thousand years, one thousand-five hundred years. Even this rascal, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he dates Bhagavad-g┤t─ within two thousand years. That's all. Perhaps I am the first person making propaganda that Bhagavad-g┤t─ was spoken five thousand years ago. I am the first person. All other so-called scholars, they have dated within two thousand years. (pause) There was a book: "England's work in India," written by one rascal Indian, M. Ghosh. In that book... That was taught in the schools in our days. The theme of the book is that before British rule, India was not at all advanced in any way. The incidence of sat┤... Sat┤. That was very elaborately explained. Sat┤...

Svar┗pa D─modara: Sat┤ dharma?

Prabhup─da: Sat┤ dharma. Yes. Formerly, even Arjuna's stepmother, M─dr┤, he also, she also died with her husband. That was the system. The wife voluntarily used to die along with the husband.

Brahm─nanda: G─ndh─r┤.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Brahm─nanda: G─ndh─r┤, wife of Dhṛtar─ṣṭra.

Prabhup─da: Yes. So later on such devoted wife was lacking. So the system was, some cases, they were forced to die. So these things have been elaborately explained in the, that book, and Britishers stopped it. So the Indians were uncivilized. Britishers made them civilized. Everything was misinterpreted. Yes.

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: But they do not know the inner meaning...

Prabhup─da: No, inner meaning is there. But they would not explain that. Simply the dark side, they would explain. And prove that the Indian civilization was very crude and primitive. It has no enlightenment. That was British propaganda. Even during national movement, they bribed one American woman, and she wrote a book: "Mother India." Do you know that?

Svar┗pa D─modara: No, I, no...

Prabhup─da: Ah. "Mother India." She described all the blackmailing of Indian social activities, and Gandhi remarked it: "Drain Inspector's report."

Brahm─nanda: What?

Prabhup─da: "Drain inspector's report."

Brahm─nanda: Drain?

Prabhup─da: Drain, that sewage water...

Brahm─nanda: The sewer.

Prabhup─da: Sewage water.

Brahm─nanda: That's what she inspected.

Prabhup─da: She's a drain inspection report. And in reply to that, one Punjabi barrister, he wrote one book: "Uncle Sam". He pointed out all the blackmailing of American government. So these things are going on. Doṣam icchanti p─mar─ḥ. Those who are low class of men, they simply try to find out the faults. Guṇa icchanti saj-jan─ḥ. And those who are enlightened, they will take the qualities only. Saj-jan─ guṇa icchanti, doṣam icchanti p─mar─ḥ, mukti br─hmaṇ─ icchanti madhum icchanti bhramar─ḥ. Yes. That, there are flies, ordinary flies. They are searching after sores, where is sore in your body. And there are bumblebees, they are searching after where is honey. Similarly, those who are rascals, they'll find out: "Oh, here is a fault. Here is a fault." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svar┗pa D─modara: So this is a demoniac quality.

Prabhup─da: Yes. These Britishers should have tried to assimilate the mass Indian culture with their help, administrative help, to broadcast this culture. No. They wanted to exploit India, and prove that "our ruling over India"... Because they have to show something to the outside world...

Brahm─nanda: To justify that exploitation.

Prabhup─da: Yes. (pause) They would not allow anyone to enter India to make trade. And that is the cause of two big world wars. This is a... Real cause is India. Because the Germans, they were very intelligent. They were intelligent nation. They wanted to trade with India. So Britishers will not allow them. Actually, Britishers were selling goods, purchasing from Germany and Japan, And when German would go to trade, they will enhance the custom duty very, very large amount. So that was the grudge of the German nation. Two times, they fought with that "Finish these Britishers-shop-keeper's nation." Yes. Hitler, Hitler was... Hitler or the Emperor Wilhelm, some of them, one of them, was calling the Britishers: "shop-keeper's nation."

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Shop-keeper's nail?

Prabhup─da: Shop-keeper's nation.

Brahm─nanda: A nation of shop-keepers only.

Prabhup─da: That's right. Why the shop-keeper's nation should predominate all over the world? Kill them. That is their (indistinct). And actually it is the German people who killed Britishers, British lion. Apart, after the Second War...

Brahm─nanda: British was finished.

Prabhup─da: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.

Brahm─nanda: The, the independence movement of Africa, they took great inspiration from Gandhi's movement.

Prabhup─da: Yes, yes.

Brahm─nanda: If Gandhi did it, then, they say: "Oh, now we can do it."

Prabhup─da: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa.

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa.

Prabhup─da: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa-nama...

Svar┗pa D─modara: Kalidasa?

Prabhup─da: Dr. Kalidasa-nama. Did you hear his name?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Only just now.

Prabhup─da: He was our professor. So he was explaining the different ages of archaeologist, anthropology.

Svar┗pa D─modara: This is in philosophy, Śr┤la Prabhup─da?

Prabhup─da: No, history.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Oh, history.

Prabhup─da: In my honors class, I had history. He was teaching us history.

Svar┗pa D─modara: What is the standard of Calcutta University, Śr┤la Prabhup─da, at the time when Śr┤la Prabhup─da was in the University? How was the...

Prabhup─da: Oh, it was nice. Very nice students were coming out.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The moral standard was very good?

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes. We respected our professors like our fathers. The relationship between the student and the professors was very good. I had one Scottish professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. He was my nice friend. He was professor of philosophy, psychology. Later on he became vice-chancellor.


Prabhup─da: Calcutta, yes. A very perfect gentleman. Kind-hearted. Sometimes we joked. We were taking this, what is called, peanuts. So the professor was passing. So some of our friends remarked: (Bengali) So he thought that professor did not know Bengali. So immediately he turned: (Bengali). So we became very much ashamed. Yes. So all the professors from foreign countries, they were instructed to learn Bengali language, local language. That was the system. All officers, big officers, educate... (Aside) Good morning. ...big educationists, they were to learn the local language. And they used to learn Bengali. Especially in Calcutta. There was one professor, Mr. Scrimgeour. He was professor of literature, English literature. So while teaching one English literature, he was giving parallel passage from Bankim Candra Chatterjee. Yes. "Your Bankim babu says like this." He used to say like that.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Oh, I see.

Prabhup─da: That means he studied Bankim literature. Bankim Candra Chatterjee was compared with Sir Walter Scott, of English literary men. Sir Walter Scott. In those days, Charles Dickens.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Charles Dickens?

Prabhup─da: Yes. And Sir Walter Scott were known two very great English literary men.

Karandhara: Novelists.

Prabhup─da: After sixth year... Yes novelists. So the relationship was very nice. There were... Otherwise, how the Britishers could rule, unless there was obedience. But as soon as they saw now the obedience is going on, the soldiers are leaving our camp and joining the national camp," immediately they decided to leave peacefully. Otherwise, there would be some revolution. At that time, all good relationship will go. Better separate with good relation. This was Attlee's policy, to convince statesmen like Churchill that: "You cannot rule over India any more. Better separate in good relationship."

Svar┗pa D─modara: A few weeks ago, there was a supplement in the Times, the London Times. So they were describing about the very relationship between British and India, in the early British period and after the British period. There they talked only about very good points, whereas they never say anything about... All good points.

Prabhup─da: No, that... When they discuss, they must describe the good points only. But some of the British rulers were very, very unkind. And the last was that Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, created by Lord Chelmsford. Then the British rule finished. In 1917, and immediately Gandhi started non-cooperation movement. So after thirty years, the Britishers were obliged to leave.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The Scottish Church College in Calcutta...

Prabhup─da: Yes. I was student there.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Oh, Śr┤la Prabhup─da was in Scottish Church?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: It's very popular among the...

Prabhup─da: Oh, Yes. In Calcutta, there are two colleges, Presidency College and Scottish Churches College. All respectable families, son will go there, Scottish Churches College, Presidency College.

Svar┗pa D─modara: They started almost at the same time?

Prabhup─da: No, no. It is very old. Presidency College is government, and Scottish Churches College, by the Scottish Church missionaries. There was one priest, Duff, his name was Duff. He started in Srirampur, a small educational institute, Duff Institute. He was a Scotsman. Later on, all the Scottish missionaries combined together and they started this Scottish Churches College.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Still now the schools are respected now.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Still now they have good names,...

Prabhup─da: Oh, yes. Yes, yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Presidency College and Scottish Church College.

Prabhup─da: Now they are ruined due to this Naxalite movement. Subash Bose was in our college.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Oh, Scottish? Oh.

Prabhup─da: He was first in the Presidency College, but on account of his national spirit, he was rusticated from Presidency College. Then he came to our college.








My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness.


Yes, convenience means going to hell. That's all. It is very convenient to go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything synthetic. Cotton is disappearing.


Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Kṛṣṇa is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing R─dh─r─ṇ┤ also. That is perfection. Useful, giving milk´ Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?


You just work little, produce your food, eat, and save time, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the nature's arrangement. Anywhere, any part of the world, you can produce your food. Simply you require a little land and some cows. Everything is complete. You take milk from the cows and just till the field and get some food grains. That is sufficient. Whole economic question solved. And save time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the arrangement.



So much land is lying there. Simply you keep cows and till ground, get your food grains. Enough´It is a soul-killing civilization. We have to fight against it, to save at least a few men. So you are thoughtful young man. You try to understand this philosophy, and you try to spread.









This is the arrangement.








































Morning Walk                                             April 27, 1973, Los Angeles                                                        345443

Prabhup─da: Yes. (pause) How the sand is made? According to scientists?

Svar┗pa D─modara: By the combination of, when one atom of silica, two atoms of oxygen. Called silicon dioxide, the chemical name, or silica. But this is existing as a silicate, as a salt of sodium, magnesium, silicate.

Prabhup─da: So there is salt in the water. So from that salt it is produced?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes. It reacts with the sodium, in the water, sodium in the water, in salt, that sodium reacts with silicic acid. So from sodium silicate, that becomes sand.

Karandhara: It's not rocks pounded down?

Svar┗pa D─modara: No, rocks? Oh... No, we can make silicate very easily just by mixing the alkali, sodium and then acid, is just the reaction between the acid in the base. So forming an acid...

Prabhup─da: So far we know, there is this sand, combined with silicate of soda, makes glass.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes, glass is nothing but silicate.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Finer sort. Normally silicate is shining, but this is not shining because it contains various mixtures. Not only soda, but other magnesium, calcium silicates.

Prabhup─da: Silicate of soda is mixed with soap also.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Adulteration. That's not first-class soap. Washing soap, they are mixed with silicate of soda. (pause) What is this cottage?


Morning Walk                                                April 28, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     345507

Prabhup─da: Kliśyam─n─n─m. It is a very important word. Everyone is suffering here. What the scientists can do that? Future. That's all. Bluff. But everyone is suffering here. That is the word. Bhave 'smin kliśyam─n─n─m, avidy─...

Devotee: K─ma...

Prabhup─da: K─ma-karmabhiḥ. Avidy─-k─ma-karmabhiḥ. They are creating a situation of suffering by unnecessary desire. That's all. So your scientific improvement means you are creating a situation of suffering. That's all. No improvement. You cannot. K─ma-karmabhiḥ, k─ma-karmabhiḥ. They are working in such a way... Bhaktivinoda Öh─kura also says the same thing: anitya saṁs─re moha janamiy─ j┤bake karaye g─dh─. The so-called scientific improvement means he's already an ass, and he's becoming more, better ass. That's all. Nothing more. He's already an ass because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has come to this material world to enjoy. That is ass mentality. There is no enjoyment. So he's already an ass. And this scientific improvement means he's becoming more attached to this material world to remain better ass. Avidy─... anitya saṁs─re, anitya. He cannot stay here. Suppose, working very hard like an ass, he gets a skyscraper building, throughout his whole life, laboring. But he cannot stay there. He'll be kicked out. Is it not ass? Is he not an ass? He cannot stay there. Anitya saṁs─re. Anitya. Because it is not the permanent settlement. You are trying: dum dum. (sound imitation) Very strong foundation. That's all right. But your foundation is nothing. You'll be kicked out. Therefore he's an ass. That: "I'll stay here for twenty years." Why dum dum dum, foundation stone? Where is your foundation? Therefore he's an ass.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Anitya is temporary, Prabhup─da?

Prabhup─da: Yes, anitya means temporary. You cannot stay here. That they do not understand. They're making research, making research. And if we ask them: "What you are doing?" "For the next generation, future." And what about your, your...? You're going to be a tree next life. What you'll do with your next generation? But he's ass. He does not know. He s going to stand before that skyscraper building, a tree, for ten thousand years, and he's making: dum dum dum. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know where he's going. And he's making provision for the next generation. What is the next generation? If there is no petrol, what you'll do, next generation? And how the next generation will help you? You are going to be a dog, cat or tree. So next generation, how he'll help you? J┤bake karaye g─dh─. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know his personal interest. And making research work. What research work? Simply śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply laboring, what is called? Labor of love? Or what is that?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Therefore Bh─gavata says: bhave 'smin kliśyam─n─n─m avidy─ k─ma-karmabhiḥ. Avidy─. Avidy─ means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidy─ k─ma-karmabhiḥ. This is Bh─gavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words. How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words. Bhave 'smin. Kliśyam─n─n─m. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidy─. Ignorance. What is that avidy─? K─ma-karmabhiḥ.

Brahm─nanda: Desire.

Prabhup─da: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled.

Svar┗pa D─modara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.

Prabhup─da: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇ─n─m, chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijï─te sarvam evaṁ vijï─taṁ bhavati. If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the statement of Veda. Yasmin vijï─te sarvam evaṁ vijï─taṁ bhavati. If you know Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society, so many scientists are coming, so many psychologists coming. So how we are confident to talk with him? Because we have learned little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is it not? You are a qualified scientist. Why I challenge you? Not that because you are my disciple, you are accepting all my challenges. You have got your reasons. You are not a fool. So how it is possible? Practically, how it is possible? Because we are trying to know little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore this Vedic injunction, yasmin vijï─te sarvam evaṁ vijï─taṁ bhavati, yaṁ labdhv─ c─paraṁ l─bhaṁ manyate n─dhikaṁ tataḥ. These statements are there. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then you will not hanker after any more profit. Bas. All profit is there. Yaṁ labdhv─ c─paraṁ l─bham. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then all other kinds of profit, you'll not hanker after. And what kind of profit this is? Yasmin sthito na duḥkhena guruṇ─pi vic─lyate. If one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the greatest calamity of this world, he'll not be disturbed. This is the greatest profit. Just like Prahl─da Mah─r─ja. A big giant, Hiraṇyakaśipu, is putting him always in difficulty, but he's confident: "Yes, there is Kṛṣṇa." A five years old boy. He's not at all disturbed. Father is giving poison. "All right, give me poison." And throwing him from the hill on down. But he is steady. How it is possible? Na duḥkhena guruṇ─pi vic─lyate. Guru. Guru means heavy, very heavy difficulties. But na vic─lyate. He's not perturbed, not disturbed. How it is possible? It is such a thing, that if you know Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are not disturbed in the heaviest type of calamity. So these things should be given to the human society. One thing. That will make his life perfect. Is it not?

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Now it is up to you, scientist, to explain. Yes, this is it.

Brahm─nanda: That is research work.

Prabhup─da: This is research. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇ─nuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka. Uttamaśloka means Kṛṣṇa. Guṇ─nuvarṇanam. Describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is success of life. Avicyutaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nir┗pitaḥ. By great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhiḥ. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇ─nuvarṇanam avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is Bh─gavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right." Another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say: "Today it is all right." And, after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not all right."

Svar┗pa D─modara: That we find in science.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: That is what we find in science.

Prabhup─da: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position, my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Making more confusing to the innocent.

Prabhup─da: That's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇ─n─m. Chewing the chewed. One scientist explained to some extent. The matter remained the same. Another rascal comes. He explains again. And the matter remains the same. What advancement you have made? Nothing. Simply some volumes of books. That's all. Just like there is petrol problem. What your this explanation will help? You have created problem. Now you are dependent so much on petrol. If the petrol supply is stopped, then what these rascal scientists can do? They cannot do anything. It is stopped. Now there is scarcity of water in India. What the scientists can do? There is enough water. Why the scientists cannot throw this water where there is scarcity of water? It will require the help of cloud. That is God's manipulation. You cannot do anything. Water is here, so much water. Why don't you make this sand fertile by bringing this water? Fertilization made by supplying water in the desert.

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Prabhup─da: So here is water, here is desert. Why don't you do it? You cannot do anything. They are going to the moon planet, the dusty planet, to make it fertilized. Why don't you do here? Sahara desert, Arabian desert, or Rajasthan desert. And the sea water is there. Bring it, and make it fertile, fertilize. "Yes, in future." That's all. "We are trying." And immediately (indistinct): "Yes, yes, they are trying. Take all money. Take all money."

Svar┗pa D─modara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhup─da: Even hope, there is no hope.

Brahm─nanda: Blind hope.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Ask any doctor: "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying, everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge? (pause)

Svar┗pa D─modara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance?

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: The real taken away by ignorance.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Then it says: andh─ yath─ndhair upan┤yam─n─ḥ. One blind man is claiming that: "I shall lead you, other blind men."

Brahm─nanda: Into the pit.

Prabhup─da: That's all. (pause) And in Bh─gavata, in one word, finishes all... Kliśyam─n─n─m. You'll have to work hard, avidy─ k─ma-karmabhiḥ, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So k─ma-karmabhiḥ. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem. And you have to work very hard. That's all.

Prabhup─da: What is the next line of that verse? Anyone remembers? No.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yesterday's?

Prabhup─da: Yes. (pause) This research work is k─ma-karmabhiḥ. This, in the laboratory, research work, that is k─ma-karmabhiḥ. They're planning something. That is k─ma-karma. He, he does not take the planning of Kṛṣṇa. He makes his own plan. That is k─ma-karma. K─mais tais tair hṛta-jï─n─ḥ. In another place, it is said: When one is engaged in the matter of these unnecessary desires, he becomes lost of all intelligence. K─mais tais tair hṛta-jï─n─ḥ. (pause) It is like the child's crying. The child is crying, asking mother: "Give me that moon." The mother gives a mirror. "Here is moon, my dear son." He takes the mirror. He sees the moon. "Oh, yes..." He has got the moon. It is not story. Now these rascals are going to the moon planet. Why they have stopped talking anymore?

Karandhara: Well, after spending all that money and taking a few rocks, they decided there's nothing more to do there.

Prabhup─da: Therefore, it is kept for future, or what?

Karandhara: I guess so.

Prabhup─da: Or they've finished their money. That's all.

Svar┗pa D─modara: They're trying to...

Brahm─nanda: They want to go to another one now.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes, to another planet, Mars.

Prabhup─da: It is, it is finished? The moon planet is finished?

Karandhara: For the time being.

Brahm─nanda: Yes, their, their travels there are finished.

Prabhup─da: Simply by taking some dust?

Brahm─nanda: Yes.

Prabhup─da: That's all. Just see how much...

Svar┗pa D─modara: Millions of dollars.

Prabhup─da: How great asses they are.

Karandhara: Billions.

Prabhup─da: You, you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy "that this hard-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff. "Don't worry. I am going another planet."

Brahm─nanda: Yeah, right. Another one.

Prabhup─da: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust."

Brahm─nanda: Another future.

Prabhup─da: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust. I'll bring tons of dust. Don't.... And if I... "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and tons... What is the meaning?

Svar┗pa D─modara: They believe there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful...

Prabhup─da: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he'll gain? What is your gain?

Svar┗pa D─modara: They're very curious to know what is going on there.

Prabhup─da: That means for their childish curiosity they're spending so much money. Just see the fun. To satisfy their curiosity, they're spending so much money. And when they're asked that: "There are so many poverty stricken countries. Help them." "No. No money."

N┤lakaṇṭha: Some people are very happy and they think: "Oh, my country has done this. They have gone to the moon. I am happy. I'm satisfied. I'm glad to be an American."

Prabhup─da: What's that?

N┤lakaṇṭha: Some people are very, the public, they're very satisfied: "Oh, I am an American, and we have done this. We have gone to the moon. We are so good."

Prabhup─da: Why don't you say: "We have gone to Kṛṣṇa-loka, Vṛnd─vana, which you have no information"?

Brahm─nanda: Then all their curiosity will be satisfied.

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: This is called "scientific advancement." (pause) Śr┤la Prabhup─da?

Prabhup─da: Hmm?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Can we hear a little bit from the S─━khya philosophy?

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: S─━khya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements.

Prabhup─da: S─━khya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also s─━khya philosophy. S─━, s─━khya, it comes from the word, "sa━-khy─".

Svar┗pa D─modara: To count?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called sa━-khy─, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called s─━khya. So, from the sa━khy─, the word, it comes s─━khya, knowing analytically. This is s─━khya philosophy. So you are also s─━khya philosopher. Everyone is s─━khya philosopher. We are also s─━khya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bh┗mir ─po 'nalo v─yuḥ. We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also s─━khya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The, the nature of the inferior and the superior energies...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: ...are also described in the s─━khya philosophy?

Prabhup─da: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know?

Svar┗pa D─modara: No.

Prabhup─da: So similarly the s─━khya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material.

Svar┗pa D─modara: So just the creative material elements?

Prabhup─da: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it, itself, has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and... Will they make water? Will they make?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Hydrogen, oxygen?

Prabhup─da: Yes, if you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen. Will the combination come in contact?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Unless it is not mixed.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Therefore you require a superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior... Similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself. Although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves.

Svar┗pa D─modara: So the action of force is necessary?

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Force.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is some scientists' theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion.

Devotee: Newton?

Prabhup─da: I think Newton's.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The Newton has the laws of motion.

Prabhup─da: Motion. So one must give the motion. Then another motion, another motion, another motion. Just like big, big, that trucks, railway, trucks. The engine pushes one truck. Have you seen shunting? The, the truck pushes. Another truck, another, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat. Like that.

Brahm─nanda: Shunting, yeah.

Prabhup─da: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata kak kata kak kata kak kata kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Kṛṣṇa is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see. may─dhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ s┗yate sa-car─caram. That is stated in the Bha... may─dhyakṣeṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: b┤jo 'haṁ sarva-bh┗t─n─m. "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Kṛṣṇa has created. He says, "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree. Many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Kṛṣṇa, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another... So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out, trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know.

Svar┗pa D─modara: So the material elements...

Prabhup─da: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words?

Brahm─nanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.

Prabhup─da: No, remote cause.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Sarva-k─raṇa-k─raṇam. Vedic literature: sarva-k─raṇa-k─raṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-k─raṇa-k─raṇam, the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijï─te sarvam evaṁ vijï─taṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti param─tmeti bhagav─n iti śabdyate. You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests... Some... Not ordinary persons. Authorized person. You won't accept.

Svar┗pa D─modara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Svar┗pa D─modara: They do not know that there are two types of energies...

Prabhup─da: Yes.

Svar┗pa D─modara: ...inferior and the superior.

Prabhup─da: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine. So many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine? So we are concerned with the operator, Kṛṣṇa, not with the machine. If you say: "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says: may─dhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ s┗yate sa-car─caram. "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe. I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, here is the person. That's all. Now if you say: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Kṛṣṇa. Another..." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal. (break) Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory?

Svar┗pa D─modara: That's not possible.

Prabhup─da: No, no. But see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is working. You cannot create even a few grains of sand, and you are claiming that: "We have become more than God." How foolishness it is.

Svar┗pa D─modara: They will take the, the matter from Kṛṣṇa, and they will manipulate, and they will claim that they have done it. For example, they can make some, some sands...

Prabhup─da: That's all right. At least if you accept that "I have taken this matter from Kṛṣṇa." That is also good. Just like we take. We take Kṛṣṇa, from Kṛṣṇa is coming everything. That's all.

Svar┗pa D─modara: But they will not say that they are taking from Kṛṣṇa. They'll say that they have created.

Prabhup─da: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation?

Svar┗pa D─modara: They will say that: "I have taken from the nature."

Prabhup─da: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created. You have stolen. Thief you are. And we say: "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa." Éś─v─syam idaṁ sarvam. Éś─v─syam, it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-g┤t─. Yes... If one does not perform yajïa, he's a thief. Yajïa means acknowledging that things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa. And we must satisfy Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, You have given so many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgement Kṛṣṇa wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Pras─da. Pras─da means acknowledging: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Kṛṣṇa's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world. Again produce it, as it is. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. P┗rṇ─t p┗rṇam, p┗rṇasya p┗rṇam ─d─ya p┗rṇam ev─vaśiṣyate. Kṛṣṇa is so perfect, that you take from Kṛṣṇa, whole Kṛṣṇa's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy.


Morning Walk                                               April 29, 1973, Los Angeles                                                      345742

Prabhup─da: They are simply set of rascals. All people are unhappy there. Unhappy. They cannot speak anything against the government and they have got so many protests to lodge. So many. But they cannot speak. If you speak, immediately he's sent to the concentrated camp. Some... Nobody knows where he has gone. You see the Kruschev, such a big man. Nobody knows where he is. That is their policy. As soon as you are suspicious,... Therefore Lelin... Lelin, Lelin...

Svar┗pa D─modara: Lenin...

Prabhup─da: Not Lenin. Stalin.

Karandhara: Stalin.

Prabhup─da: Stalin. He's estimated to be the greatest criminal in the world. As soon as he'll suspect you... You may be a great friend. Next day you are finished. He'll ask his friend: "Now, here is poison and here is revolver. What do you want? If you want to die yourself, take this poison, and die. Otherwise, you'll be shot." So what he will select? He will take poison. Finish. This was his business. As soon as little suspicion. He'll call him: "Now here is poison. Here is revolver. What do you want?" Yes.

Karandhara: Their scientists are very proud.

Prabhup─da: Eh?

Karandhara: The Russian scientists are very proud in their working, and they're atheistical. But still they're not able to produce enough food. Every year, there's not enough food.

Prabhup─da: No. There's not enough food. Yes. I have experienced it. You cannot get food as you like. What government supplies, you have to accept. That's all. And that is rubbish, all rubbish. Generally, they supply meat. No fruit, no vegetable, no rice, no, nothing. You cannot get. You simply eat meat. That's all. And milk is available. This is their arrangement. And in all store, lines. You have to ask, even if you want to take meat only, you cannot go and immediately purchase. You have to wait for three hours, control. This is their position. No bank. No motor car. No taxicab. Simply... There are simply symbolic. And people are poverty-stricken so much that one taxi driver, he was trying to cheat us. They have no sufficient money. So they saw us, that: "Here is a foreigner, Indian and American. Let me cheat." This is their position. Just like India. India, being poverty-stricken, they also cheat. Of course, cheating is a disease. But especially those who are poverty-stricken, generally, they cheat, they steal. No character. And all women are engaged for sweeping, fat, fat women. (pause)

Karandhara: Now in Russia, the people are starting to become disillusioned.

Prabhup─da: I, I, I am traveling all over the world. My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness. So in Russia, there is neither material nor spiritual. So they are unhappy in all respects. I asked Professor Kotovsky to call for a taxi. So he said: "Well, it is Moscow. Very difficult to get taxi." So he came down himself, he showed us this way: "Please go in this way, in this way, and you get (to) your hotel." He's a big man. He knows that taxi will not be available. And there are few taxis only, show. I did not see any store very neat and clean, well-decorated. Not a single. All old with dust. As if antique shop. The antique shop, just like in your country. I was daily having my morning walk in the Red Square. The most dangerous square...

Svar┗pa D─modara: What square?

Prabhup─da: Red Square. Yes. I think you have got my picture.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhup─da: Many visitors are waiting to see the tomb of Lenin. Yes. They were worshiping Lenin. As we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, they are worshiping Lenin. So I, I asked Professor Kotovsky: "Where is the difference in principle? You are also worshiping somebody. So you, you have not been able to stop worshiping. How you can be Godless. You have made your God, that's all. Somebody false God." I did not say him also that: "This is your false God," but I said that: "You are worshiping Lenin. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difference in philosophy? "You have to worship somebody." Now it is my selection whether I shall worship Lenin or Kṛṣṇa. That is different thing. But the principle of worshiping is there in you and in me." He could not answer. What he'll answer? Everywhere it is going on.

Svar┗pa D─modara: That, that, that also shows that the, there is superior person than man to worship.

Prabhup─da: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is: "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-g┤t─: mattaḥ parataraṁ n─nyat. "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior?

Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they will choose someone.

Prabhup─da: Eh? Eh?

Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they'll choose someone, someone very beautiful...

Prabhup─da: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool. He's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine, he's submitting: "Yes sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature. If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. J┤vera svar┗pa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-d─sa. This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mah─prabhu.

Svar┗pa D─modara: Ultimately when death comes, we have to submit to...

Prabhup─da: Yes, one has to submit to death. Yes. What is the time now?

Karandhara: About ten to seven.

Svar┗pa D─modara: We lost an hour last night.

Prabhup─da: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end of recording)


Morning Walk                                               April 30, 1973, Los Angeles                                                      345768

Prabhup─da: ...things of value, they're disappearing. Just like formerly people used to have some dishes of valuable metals. Now it is plastic. This is the advancement.