Then his whole problem is solved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ONE

Room Conversation                                       July 16, 1968, Montreal       Record number for Folio search: 330857

Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class. In Jagannatha temple the arrangement is that... One does not know since how long... (someone enters) Come on. In Jagannatha temple... Sit down. Jagannatha temple, the prasādam is cooked every day in new earthen pot. No old pot is used. Once used, it is thrown away. Formerly, this was the system in India. Even dishes, once used, it is thrown away. No washing. Even golden dishes, silver dishes, once used, it is thrown away. And now golden dishes, there is no use of golden dishes, neither nobody throws it away, but that was the system. Now the earthen dishes... Just like china clay dishes, this is considered impure because it is repeatedly used. In India, those who are strict Hindus, earthen dishes, once used, it will be thrown away. Clay dishes. So this is china clay dish. It is not to be used again. It is thrown away. Just like you have got paper plates and glass here. You eat it and throw it away. Similarly, India... Now it is being introduced, these paper dishes, gradually, but from very old time, refreshment or foodstuff supplied in clay dishes, and after eating, it is thrown away. So there is a potter class, who flourish. They sell their products. Just like in your country also, so many things are thrown away so that the manufacturer get chance to sell again. So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement. Similarly, in temple, the florist has to supply flowers daily. Mr. Khanvar(?), am I right? You know this Indian system?

Mr. Khanvar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bhāgavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇòita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as chouddhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the

Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brahmacārī, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life. That is the beauty. You haven't got to change. If somebody says that "Sir, I am potter. How can I be Kṛṣṇa conscious? It requires that one should be a brāhmaṇa, one should be very learned man, Vedānta philosophy, and one must have the sacred thread, and this and that. So I am a potter. I am a cobbler. I am a washerman." No. Kṛṣṇa says, "No." You do not require to change. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says, "You do not require to change." Kṛṣṇa says that svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. You just try to worship the Supreme Lord by the result of your occupation. Because Kṛṣṇa requires everything. So if you are a potter, you supply pots. If you are florist, you supply flower. If you are carpenter, you work for temple. If you are washerman, then wash clothing of the temple. Temple is the center, Kṛṣṇa. And everyone gets chance to offer his service. Therefore temple worship is very nice. So this temple should be organized in such a way that we don't require any money. You give your service. That's all. You be engaged in your service. Don't change your service. But you try to serve the--temple means the Supreme Lord--by your occupational duty.

Śivānanda: In other words, in the correct position that... You might have a community, and then...

Prabhupāda: The community is supposed to be there. The potter is there, the washerman is there, the grocer is there, the milkman is there, everyone is there. So we haven't got to form community.

Śivānanda: No. In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad-gītā. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice prasādam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because it is understandable not by ordinary class of men. But they are not disallowed. It depends on the speaker to present very nicely for their understanding. It is not, I mean to say, stopped. Nityam bhāgavata-sevaya. This is the process.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani

vidhunoti suhrt satam

If you kindly come and hear about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased upon you. Anyone. Suppose if somebody is interested with you, he likes your activity, he likes to hear about your qualities, you will be also pleased with him. "Oh, this man is interested with my affairs." So śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is within your heart. Kṛṣṇa is within and without because He is all-pervading. It is not that He is simply without or within. He is within and without. That is all-pervading. Akhilātma-bhūtaḥ. And all-pervading does not mean that He is not in Goloka Vṛndāvana. He is there also. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ. Although He is in His abode, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He is everywhere. Just like sun. He is ninety millions miles away from here, situated in sun globe, but he is everywhere. This light now, it is sunlight. So if sun can remain in that way, everywhere, why not the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He also remains everywhere? So He is within your heart. And when He sees that you are interested in hearing about Him, He becomes sympathetic. He is sympathetic to everyone. Still more sympathetic. So what does He do? Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa, when He sees that one is interested in hearing about Him, then He gives you facility. What is that facility? That facility is śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-kathā, talks about Kṛṣṇa, you, either you understand it or not understand it, it doesn't matter, if you simply sit down to receive, give aural reception to such message, you become pious. Immediately. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. You don't understand; simply you talk and discuss and hear, you become pious. Just like fire. You come to the fire, you understand it or not understand, you get warm. That facility is there. You don't require to understand how fire is produced, what is the chemical or physical constitution. You do it, understand or not understand. Just like you sit down on a car, motor car. You understand it or not understand it, what is the engineering of the car, but you run on. Similarly, kṛṣṇa-kathā, the simply, the simple method, if you kindly come and hear, then you will be pious. That is the first installment. You don't understand or don't follow, but if the injection is there you become pious. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. And if you give little attention, then the result will be hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi, all undesirable things that is accumulated within your heart, that will be cleared. Kṛṣṇa will help you.

                                                                                                                                                                        330879

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa can be served by his own occupation, as I described just now. Or whatever you may be. You may be a potter, you may be a florist, you may be... Whatever you may be, but you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa by his work, by your work. You do not require to qualify yourself with some specific qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, you have to dovetail it under the direction of expert spiritual master, how you can serve. That's all.

Pradyumna: What does that expert mean in the list of qualifications for a devotee? In the list of qualifications of a devotee there is one qualification, expert.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: What does that mean in relation to the occupation?

Prabhupāda: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a brāhmaṇa, he was not a sannyāsī. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely. That is expert. And when it is dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa, there is no gradation that this business is better and that business is lower because everything is for Kṛṣṇa. So that business becomes Kṛṣṇa. Do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And that is your success. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate 'khila pārthiva vānaraḥ.(?) Expert. There is a very nice story in Sanskrit. A monkey. A monkey... You might have some experience, that sawmen, who cut wood? Sawmen. So a sawman was cutting wood by the saw. So at the end of business it was half cut so he pulled down a, I mean to say, a plug so that next day he will come and he'll again begin sawing. So went away. So one monkey came. So monkey sat down there and began to pull on the plug because monkey's business is simply mischievous. So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila pārthiva vānaraḥ, vyāpare suvyaparam. Avyāpara means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avyāpara. Avyāpara-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avyāpare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. If you know driving, that's all right. But don't take... My Guru Mahārāja explained that you haven't got to learn anything extra for Kṛṣṇa's service. Whatever you know, you just apply it... Then you become successful. Because our time is very short. We do not know when I am going to die. As soon as I am out of this body, I am completely under the grip of nature, and I do not know what kind of body I am getting next. Of course, Kṛṣṇa assures that His devotee will never be vanquished. He will get good body. But I do not know what kind of body I am going to... Therefore before finishing this body I will have to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. That is my success.

 

Room Conversation                                   September 24, 1968, Seattle                                                         331142

Prabhupāda: I understand that she, she felt some inconvenience, that girl, in your company.

Govinda dāsī (whispers): Harṣarāṇī! You're making...

Prabhupāda: So she was...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told her, I said, if she wished to come with us, (break) that only married women could come with us. I told her that. Because it was not good for men, unmarried men, brahmacārīs and brahmacārīṇis, to constantly be mixing, and so I felt that it would be better for married people than brahmacārīs. And she... (someone moves microphone) ...did she wish to come?

Prabhupāda: She likes this... (microphone noise) But also marriage problem, one must have a choice. So if we force something, that is not (chuckling) good. At least, in your country it is not... Of course, in your country, the husband...the boys and girls are, I mean to say, not major, whatever the parents force, that is another thing. When the boys and girls are grown up, it is not possible. Just like in India, there was svayaṁvara. Svayaṁvara means the girl will select her own bridegroom. That was allowed to princess. Princess, highly qualified princess. So the father would make a challenge, that "This is the condition. One who can fulfill this condition, I'll offer my daughter to him." So this was generally amongst the princes. So there was great fight. (laughs) Just like Arjuna. Arjuna married Draupadī. You know the condition? Her father made condition: there was a fish on the ceiling and one wheel was circling. So one has to pierce the eyes of the fish through the hole of the circle. And he cannot see directly. He has to see down. There is a reflection in waterpot. In this way, he had to pierce. (laughs) "In this way, he has to fix, and in one stroke the eye will be pierced. One who is successful, my daughter is for him." So nobody could, except only Arjuna. He was such expert bowman that he... Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra also made... In the palace there was a big bow. It was all hardened, made of iron. So long standing it was there. So one day, Sītā was sweeping the floor, and with her left hand she pushed the bow. It was very heavy. Nobody could... It was very weighty, heavy. And with her left hand she pushed it. So her father said, "Oh, this is wonderful girl. She can lift this. Nobody can lift it and with her left hand she pushed it? Oh, then my son-in-law will be he who can break this." (laughter) So he made a challenge that anyone, any prince, who will come and break this bow, he'll be my son-in-law. So it was only possible by Rāmacandra, Lord Rāmacandra. So these challenges were made amongst the kṣatriyas. Otherwise, generally, the parents would select. We were married. Whatever our parents selected, we accepted. I did not like my wife, (laughs) but gradually, I was accustomed. I was obliged to like. That's all. (laughs) That is the Indian system. You like or not like, you have to accept it. That's all. The psychology is that the girls, generally, before attaining puberty if she loves one boy, she cannot forget him. That is her psychology. And a boy also, when he is grown up, the first girl he makes choice, he also cannot forget. Therefore, by some way or other they are mixed up. So in your country the situation is different. You see? The boys and girls are freely mixing, and from school, college, they are freely mixing, free sex without any restriction. So we cannot enforce, at least, at the present moment. If some boy and some girl agree, then I bless him. That's all. Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes... Of course, sometimes scripture we say that "Woman is the cause of bondage." So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that. (chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master. And Prabhupāda means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhupāda. So each, everyone shall treat others as "My master." This is the Vaiṣṇava system.

 

Radio Interview                                       Los Angeles, February 12, 1969                                                     332197

Interviewer: Among your followers is the part of their lives which is not involved with the rules of your organization or with the formal meetings. Are there...? Do they simply proceed with their normal lives and work at jobs?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, work.

Interviewer: I mean, are there any prohibitions as to what type of work? For example, would a follower of yours work in a war industry?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no other work, he can work in war industry, because he has to live. After all, he must earn something. Without earning, how can he live? So if there is no better job, he can accept any job. What can be done?

Interviewer: You take no...

Prabhupāda: But if we can get a better job... Suppose the war industry or butcher industry... That is also an industry. So if somebody offers some job in the butchery, naturally we are not inclined to accept such job, but...

Interviewer: I believe in the Buddhist philosophy that there are some professions like slaughtering animals and so on which are...

Prabhupāda: So far Buddhist philosophy is concerned...

Interviewer: And that's why I wondered if there were prohibitions within, you know, the outside contact with society that you make.

Prabhupāda: But our formula is that one should live... It is called sato vṛtteḥ. The vṛtti, the profession or the means of livelihood, must be very fair. Must be very fair. Sato vṛtteḥ. Because association will contaminate my mind and my intelligence, therefore, as far as possible, sato vṛtti. And this sato vṛtti is a Sanskrit word. According to the purification of profession, livelihood, one is called a brāhmaṇa, one is called a kṣatriya, one is called a vaiśya, one is called a śūdra, one is called lower than the śūdras. You see? So that is also... But in this age one cannot stick to a particular profession. Just like for the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas... For brāhmaṇas it is enjoined that they should learn scripture and they should preach scripture. That's all. They have six kinds of occupation. One of the main is this, to learn and to teach. But at the present moment everything has changed. So there is change. But as far as possible, we don't accept a profession or any job which is abominable.

 

Room Conversation                                     San Francisco, April 1, 1969                                                      332248

Therefore bodily necessities are not all my demands. I must have spiritual necessities also. So all this means that I must give up my attachment for this body and I must develop my spiritual needs." That is the purpose of religion. So here it is stated that vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. All these religious principles can be achieved immediately if you place your love unto Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ. Bhakti-yogaḥ means devotional... If you try to serve, in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa, then all these principles of religions will automatically come. You will know that "I am not this body, I am a spirit soul. I have... The material attachment is useless for me. My real business is spiritual advancement of life." Everything will be clear if you simply execute devotional service of Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudeve bhagavati. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ viṣvaksena kathāsu yaḥ. Again, (indistinct) one may execute very nicely his prescribed duties according to his religion, very good boy, but if he does not develop to hear about Kṛṣṇa, or God, this propensity... Just like you are sitting here to hear about Bhāgavata. Why? This is very nice symptom. You are developing to hear some things about God, or Kṛṣṇa. These tendencies. The temple, somebody comes to hear. Not all. Because they have no development. Life is wanted. So dharmaḥ svanuṣṭha... You may do your duty very nicely, you may be very moralist or philanthropist or so many they have manufactured. You may become everything. But if you have not that propensity to hear something about God, then all these are śrama eva hi kevalam, simply laboring, laboring, laboring. That's all. That means wasting time. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Now, people are generally inclined to execute religious principles to make economic development. Just like in your Christian religion they go to church and pray, "Oh God, give us our daily bread." That is mainly economic development. Not only here. In India also the temple go, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, please keep my family well," or this or that. Economic problem. Generally, people, they become religionist... Therefore modern politicians, they say, "Why should you..." Just like the Russians. They say, "Why should you go to church for begging, 'Give us our daily...' oh, you come to us. We shall give you sufficient bread." The Bolshevists, they make propaganda like this. They go to village to village and ask the village men, "Oh, you pray to your church, pray, 'O God, give us our daily bread,' So have you got your bread?" "No, sir." "All right. Pray to us." They have taken a truck full of bread and... "Take bread. Take bread. As much as you like." "So whom do you like?" Oh, they will naturally say, "I like you." (laughter) Because they are not intelligent enough to answer, "You rascal, wherefrom you have brought this bread, from your father's house?" (Laughter) Can you manufacture the bread in the factory, rascal? It is God's bread. But they have no intelligence. They cannot say like that. If they had presented to me, I would have at once said, "Rascal, this is not your father's bread. It is God's bread. You have stolen the property." You cannot manufacture bread or wheat. It is sent by God. That answer we have to give to these so-called Communists and rascals, godless people, that "You are not proprietor. You are all rascals. Everything belongs to God." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to present scientifically. We have to present by reason, by argument. Not that if we say somebody, "You are rascals..." No. You have to place the matter, that he is rascal. So that... Bhāgavata says that for economic solution... religion is not meant for economic solution. Economic solution is there, either you be religious or not religious. In God's kingdom there is wheat, there is rice, there is water, rainfall, and the production. Everything is there. There is fruit, there is flower. So either you be religious or not religious, it doesn't matter. Your economic problem is settled already. Just like in the prisonhouse, they are all criminals. That does not mean they will starve to death. The government has all arrangement to feed them. Similarly, although this material world is prisonhouse, all criminals are here, revolt, to a person are here, those who do not care for God. But still, their fooding problem, their lodging problem is there by arrangement of God. Everything is there. So Bhāgavata says, dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. Don't execute religious principles for making your economic problem solved. Then? "We require some money." Yes. "What for?" Nārthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. And even if you get money, that is not for your sense gratification. Nārthasya dharmaikāntasya. If you are religious, really, actually, a man of religiosity, then your money is not for sense gratification, as we are teaching our boys. They are working hard, they are getting money and they are spending for Kṛṣṇa. You see? Because they have understood that "My energy spent for Kṛṣṇa's cause is really utilized. And if I utilize my energy for sense gratification, then I am cats and dogs." So nārthasya. If you get money... You must get money. But it is not meant for sense gratification. "Then what is the, it is meant? We have got senses. We have to satisfy it." Yes. You have to satisfy it, but not for enjoyment. As far as you require it. You require fooding. Yes, for maintaining your body. Not for satisfying the tongue. "This, I want to eat this, I want to eat that, I want to eat that." No. Eat something. Just maintain your body. That's all. You sleep just to keep yourself fit to work. Not that sleeping for twelve hours, fourteen hours. No. Six, seven, utmost eight. That's all. Then eating, sleeping, defending. That's also required. Defend yourself. Not to encroach upon other's property. Just like Hitler sending soldiers in others' country. Why? You defend your own country. That's all right. You defend your home. That is not prohibited. The śāstra allows it. If somebody comes to encroach upon your property, you kill him immediately. That is said. But not kill unnecessarily. Just like Arjuna was taught, "Kill them. They have insulted your wife, they have encroached upon your property. They must be killed." That is allowed. But you don't be aggressive. So ahāra-nidrā-bhaya, and sex, sex life. Yes. Just get yourself married and have sex life only for children. Not for other purposes. So kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ. Kāma means we have got some demands of the body. That is called kāma or lust. So that does not mean that we have to gratify the senses. As far as necessary, we shall utilize it. Nendriya-prītiḥ. Then how to live? Now, kāmasya, that satisfaction of the senses should be allowed just to keep myself fit. I must live. Even if I become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must work. So that is allowed. But what is my... What is your main business? Jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā nārtho yaś ceha kārmabhiḥ. Your only business is to understand what you are, what God is, what is this world, what is your relationship. This is your main business. This is your main business. Not that you earn money and employ it for sense gratification, as it is going on in this materialistic way of life. Nobody is inquisitive to know what he is. How can he? Very big businessman or very rich man or so-called advancement, can you say what you are? What is your duty? Nobody can't. So that is the main business, that jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā nārtho yaś ceha kārmabhiḥ. By your... By the result of your activity... Or your main activity should be inquiring about your spiritual existence. So this should be our inquiry. I think we should stop here. Yes. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda dāsī? Where is Govinda dāsī? You take these two fruits, offer, cutting, and distribute prasāda.

Gargamuni: Thank you for chanting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Read very carefully. All these things are already explained there. Cut it into pieces and distribute.

Devotee: Swamiji? Should we read just one chapter a day or...

Prabhupāda: It is very nice if you read one chapter Bhāgavatam daily. It is very nice. You make it a point to read one chapter daily. That is very nice.

Devotee: No more?

Prabhupāda: No, if you can do more, that's all right. Just like I ask everybody to chant 16 rounds. But if you can chant 1600 rounds, then who prohibits you? You can do that. But we should make a regulation of our life, that "So many times I chant. One chapter I shall read. I shall go to the temple at this time." In this way we must have routine work. Then we'll get practiced automatically. Yes. And Gosvāmīs, the Six Gosvāmīs, they were following routine work. Even they... Sāìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. They were doing regularly counting. Just like you are counting sixteen rounds. Not only chanting in that counting, but they were offering obeisances also by counting, that "Hundred times I shall offer my obeisances." You see? This is regular routine. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swamiji, can you tell me about what you said, going through the spiritual master, not directly to Kṛṣṇa, through the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you just tell me something about it?

Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Paramātmā, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative. And if you take help from him, and help within and without... Just like a person going, or a boy going to a school, he's getting training in the school as well as home, both sides. Then his chance is very good. So we have to take bothwise: from inside, from outside. You are doing some things in the service of the Lord. How you'll know that you are doing it properly or improperly? This you will know from the spiritual master. If he says, "It is all right," then it is all right. If he says, "It is not good," then it is not good. Just like the same way. The officer in charge, if he is satisfied (with) your work, that means you have satisfied the government or the supreme company, arranger, with whom you have no direct connection. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo. Therefore it is said that if you satisfy your spiritual master, that means you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. And yasya prasādād na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. And if you have not satisfied your spiritual master, then you must know that you are, what is called, there is no certainty about your whereabouts, what you are doing. Na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Therefore, dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. So spiritual master is necessary and his direction is necessary. That is the system of disciple succession. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, Arjuna is surrendering. He was Kṛṣṇa's friend. Why he surrendered himself, "I am your disciple." You see in the Bhagavad-gītā. He had no necessity. He was personal friend, talking, sitting, eating together. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master. So that is the way. There is a system to understand. It is specifically mentioned, śiṣyas te 'ham. "I am your disciple now." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. "You kindly instruct me." And then He began teaching Bhagavad-gītā. Unless one becomes a śiṣya, or disciple, it is prohibited, not to instruct. Not to inst... That instruction is useless. That is the system. We are instructing in the class because there are few disciples who have taken vow to learn from me. Otherwise, I have no business to teach the public. The public may come. But actual interest is to teach my disciples. But that is secondary. For the public, secondary. But real business is to teach the disciples. Just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was meant for Parīkṣit Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī's disciple. But there were many others present. They also heard. Yes?

Gargamuni: Well, how can we begin to serve you so that you'll be pleased?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That I shall tell you later on. (laughter) Do you think I am not pleased?

Gargamuni: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you must know it. How can you say that I am not pleased? How you know it that I am not pleased?

Gargamuni: Well, we cause you so much anxiety and everything.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gargamuni: We cause you so much anxiety due to our faults.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am pleased with you. Why I have given up all my anxieties of the sons and daughters who is born from my body, and why I am taking and transferring... (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      Boston, April 27, 1969                                                              332455

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. Take. Distribute little. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He is the Lord, but He has nothing to do. He is simply enjoying with His friends, with Radharani, with cowherds boy, with gopīs. That is greatness. He has nothing to think, "How to provide?" (chuckles) That is greatness. He is taking the cows as a sporting. You see? And when He was called for killing Kaṁsa, He left everything, renounced everything. Aiśvarya samagrasya yaśasaḥ... Everything in full, so much love, so much everything, but at once, in a moment, He renounced everything, went to..., left Vṛndāvana, and all these devotees, they began to cry for Kṛṣṇa for the rest of life. And whenever Kṛṣṇa was reminded, oh, He will say, "I am very soon coming. Don't worry. I am very soon coming." (chuckles) You see?

 

Room Conversation                                 May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio                                                      332640

(Break) ...that "This boy hears very nicely. He does not go away," the first impression he gave to other godbrothers. "So I shall make him disciple." These very words he said. Actually I did not follow him in the beginning. High philosophical speaking and I was a new boy. I could not follow him, but actually I was so much glad to hear him. That's all. So that was my qualification, whatever you may say. I was simply asking, "When Guru Mahārāja will speak? When he will speak? When?" And I will sit down and go on hearing, and I will understand or not understand--others will disperse--I will not disperse. That he marked. Yes. First. There was first one instance. At that time I was not initiated. There was a circumambulation of whole Vṛndāvana. So although I was not initiated, I was one of the important members of the... So I thought, "Let me go. What these people are doing, circumambulating all over Vṛndāvana?" So I went to Mathurā. Then I went to the Vṛndāvana interior, which place was known as Koṣi. So in that Kosi one of my godbrothers declared that "Prabhupāda is going tomorrow back to Mathurā. So he will speak this evening. So anyone who wants to hear him, they can stay. And others may prepare to..." Sit down.

Pradyumna: Two people just came.

Prabhupāda: Oh. All right.

Pradyumna: Can the boys downstairs bring them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were to go to see some other temple which is called Śeṣayī Temple. So although I was new man, I did not like to go to see the Śeṣayī Temple. I decided that "I shall hear." So at that time I was new, so all other, some of my important godbrothers, they were sitting like this, and I was sitting. At last, you see. But he knew that "This boy is new." Everyone has gone, all others except a few selected godbrothers. So he marked it that "This boy is interested to hear me." So hearing is very important. Hearing. Just like Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (People entering) (Break) ...because I was serious for hearing, and therefore now I am serious about kīrtanaṁ, means speaking, or preaching. Do you follow what I say? Yes. So one who is serious about hearing, he can become a future nice preacher. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ. Next stage is developed. That is development. If one has actually heard nicely, then he will speak nicely. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ. Then consciousness will automatically develop because when you speak or you hear, unless your mind is concentrated, your consciousness is right, you cannot rightly hear or speak. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. And then the development, "How I shall serve Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is so loving. Kṛṣṇa is so great," that automatically comes. Not silent, but activity. Pāda-sevanam means that activity begins immediately. In this way last item is sarvātma-snapanaṁ. Sarvātma, ātma-samarpaṇam, sarvātma-samarpaṇam. Bali Mahārāja just like. Giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. Then, when Vamanadeva asked, "Now, Bali Mahārāja, you have lost everything. Still I have got another leg, another foot, to place." "Yes. There is one thing. It is my head. Come on." So everything is there, and Lord Vamanadeva: "Yes. You have now purchased Me. You have now purchased Me. So I shall remain your doorman here, standing always to give you protection." So Kṛṣṇa became purchased by him, and He remained his doorman. Just see His mercy. Dvārā. Dvārī. Dvāri means doorman. So by serving Kṛṣṇa, nobody is loser; he is gainer. He is gainer permanently, eternally. We do not know what is the value of that gain now. Because we are materially covered, we think service means just like service in this world. This service is māyā. Nobody will be satisfied, nobody. You cannot satisfy, neither you will be satisfied. The best example is in your country, that your president, Mr. Kennedy, he gave you the best service, and the result was that you killed him. You or some of your member killed him. That means his service was not appreciated, although he gave his best service. So similarly, in the material world, whatever service you render, that is spoiling time. But you render service to Kṛṣṇa--you will be satisfied, Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, and as Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, everyone will be satisfied. So take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness service by hearing, by speaking, by remembering, by giving actually service, by worshiping, by making friendship, and after all, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now these new boys have come. Let them question and I shall answer. That will be nice. You have heard something about Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So wherefrom these men ...? (indistinct)

Pradyumna: Bhurijana sent them. Bhurijana sent money for tickets to go to Columbus.

Prabhupāda: He has sent the tickets?

Pradyumna: Money.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing, and what is called encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is--that is natural--frustration. There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C.R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing (anything). He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy. So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him--his name was Chittaranjan--"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sannyāsī was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar, to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country. So these hippies, they are frustrating. They have given up everything. We can study their psychic movement. They are not satisfied. That is the main principle. That is natural, to accept adversity voluntarily, adversity. So this is frustration. But before reaching to that point of frustration, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you reach the real standard of happiness because everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. I shall give you another example. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody's house or some friends. You will not be happy, even possessing that thing, stolen property. But if someday you come to return that thing to that friend, you will be happy. What do you think, Hayagrīva?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will feel relieved. So therefore the real thing is that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are artificially enjoying the stolen property. Therefore if you go on enjoying like that, then this frustration will come. But before coming to that frustration, if we return this property to Kṛṣṇa, then we become happy. So best thing is to return everything to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you will not be a loser. You will be gainer, just like Bali Mahārāja. Actually, if you think, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Nothing belongs to you. This is māyā. Kṛṣṇa's property you are thinking, "mine." Is this land of American belongs to you actually? It is stolen property. You have stolen from the Red Indians or from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is, not you, everyone. Somebody is claiming, "This much my property," somebody is claiming, "This much my property," but this much or that much, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. It is stolen property. There is another example in Indian words, that hira caurī kiyā abhicaurya, khīra cauri kiya abhicaura. Hira means diamond, and khira means... What is that called? Cucumber, a small? So if somebody has stolen a cucumber from other's tree, so he is captured. And another man has stolen some diamond. He is also arrested. So from the police, both are thieves. If the man says, "Oh, what I have stolen? I have stolen a little cucumber. It is nothing, worth not even two cent or one cent. Why you are arresting me? He is thief. He has stolen a big diamond," no, in the eyes of law, he is also thief; he is also thief. Everyone is thief. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is thief. He'll not be happy. The best thing is to return whatever he has possessed: "Kṛṣṇa, it is Yours. Take." Finish business. Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's song... Now, everything we possess in mind. Actually we don't possess. Suppose I am possessing all this. As soon as I go from this body, all possession will remain here. I'll not take anything. So I don't possess. But in mind I am thinking, "Oh, this is mine. This is mine. Where is another box? Why it is not coming?" And possessing in mind. If I leave this body, either the box here or in the Chicago or anywhere else, what is the difference? There is no difference. But because I am possessing in the mind, "Oh, that box is mine," so I am asking, "Whether it is Chicago or it is here, it is there? Why it is not coming?" So possession in the mind. Actually you don't possess. Mānasa deha geha. So by that supposingly possessing, we have got our mind, we have got our body, then expansion of body, wife, children, family, society, country. In this way we possess so many things. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says, mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora: "Now whatever I possess, either in the mind or in the family or in the society or in the body--whatever I have got, I surrender unto You, my dear Kṛṣṇa." Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu..., arpilun tuā pade nanda kiśora: "Nanda-kiśora, O the son of Nanda, I give unto You." Marobi rakhobi, yo icchā tohāra: "Now whatever You like, You can do, either you kill me or You protect me, as You like. You are the proprietor. You have right to do everything." This is surrender. This is full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible immediately. Therefore we have to practice. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. And if we die in that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram... In the particular type of consciousness, when one gives up this body, then he is transferred into that position next life. So in this way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we are able, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ, by practicing always, constantly, that situation of consciousness, then next life, after giving up... Why next life? This life also. One person who is in always Kṛṣṇa's service this life or that life, he is with Kṛṣṇa. He is with Kṛṣṇa. Any person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. I may not understand, but Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So you American boys and girls, you should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. Your position is to take up because you are on the top of the material happiness. Now you take it. You be saved. Otherwise this frustration is coming. That will come. Just like C.R. Das. He, out of that frustration, he gave up everything. He sacrificed his life for political. And what is the value of that sacrifice? You may become a great man of your country in the estimation of your people, but not in the estimation of Kṛṣṇa. You may become a great man in the estimation of your country, but in others' estimation, your enemy, "Oh, this man is dead. Now our enemy is finished. That's nice." So another side there is imperfection. Not everybody is satisfied by your service. But if you serve Kṛṣṇa, everybody is satisfied. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance, nobody will be dissatisfied. At least they will say, "Ah..." Just like in the paper, "The boys are very nice." You see? You have seen. Instead of not very sympathetic, they have remarked this, "Oh, these boys are very nice." At least, people will appreciate, "Oh, these boys are... These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice. They do not smoke. They do not drink. They have no illicit sex life. They do not kill for satisfy the tongue. They are satisfied with natural food. And their behavior is very good." Who will deny it? And the other asset they cannot estimate, that how much he is in contact with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. That, they have no estimating power, but at least they will appreciate these external features. One clergyman, when I was going to Hawaii, he was talking with me. He said, "Swamiji, I have seen your disciples have a very nice face, glowing face." And "Yes, certainly. They must be. They are making spiritual progress." So it is not difficult. It is very easy. If you take to this, you have everything sublime and your life becomes sublime. You haven't got to give up anything. The material needs are there, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is not disallowed, but adjusted for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot allow eating, mating, like animals, cats and dogs. No. That is not possible. You'll eat, you'll mate, but just like human being, civilized man. Then what is the distinction between animal and man if we behave like animals? Kṛṣṇa, God, is pure. So if you keep yourself in impure condition of life, then how you can make progress towards purity, highest perfection, purity? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. In the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa that "You are the purest of all." If you are going to reach the purest of all, how you can remain impure? This tapasya... This voluntary restraint means tapasya. Tapasya, there is a Sanskrit word, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily restraining or accepting some suffering condition. That is not actually suffering condition. Just like a patient. A doctor says, "You cannot take it." So he has the desire to take it, but doctor says that "you cannot take it." Therefore he mentally thinks that "Doctor has restricted this. I am suffering." Actually he is curing, but he thinks that "I am suffering." And when he's cured, he sees, "Oh, doctor is good friend. He told me not to indulge in this. Now I have done it. I am now cured." So tapasya means voluntarily one has to accept some so-called suffering. That is required to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, voluntarily acceptance, some so-called suffering. Tapaḥ divyaṁ. That suffering is for transcendental realization. That is good. Tapo divyam yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet. Śuddhyet means your existence will be purified. And existence purified means you advance to realize unlimited happiness. What is the disease? Disease means there is limitation of eating, limitation of sleeping. Everything is limited. Limitation of mating. A diseased man cannot have sex life unlimitedly or whatever. There is restriction. A tuberculosis person is completely restricted, "You cannot have sex life." That restriction is for curing him. And the cure means he enjoys--whatever he thinks enjoyment, that is unlimited. Yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam. Brahma-saukhyam, eternal happiness, unending happiness. So for acquiring unending, eternal happiness, if you have to accept some voluntary suffering in this life, everyone should do that. So if you ask... You can ask some questions. Adau gurvāśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchāt. If you go to a person, superior, or spiritual master, then you should ask. You should be inquisitive for better understanding. Sad-dharma-pṛcchāt. Jijïāsu. Jijïāsu means inquisitive, jijïāsuḥ śreya uttamam, inquisitive for higher, happy life. Inquisitiveness. So what is your inquisitiveness?

Guest (1): Would you say something about Christ and his relation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Christ? Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: Christ is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. You become like Christ, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Don't you understand Christ, that he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? You don't understand it? Then you become like Christ, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

                                                                                                                                                                        332664

Kīrtanānanda: What was Arjuna's relationship to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Friendship. That is also... There are five kinds of relationship. Just like "God is great." That is simply feeling the greatness of God. Then, when he feels exactly how God is great, then naturally there will be an inclination to serve God. That is called servitude. First neutrality estimation... That is called śānta-rasa, neutral, no activity but simply appreciating, "God is great," simply appreciation. And then servitude. When the appreciation is complete, "Oh, why not serve God? He is so great. He is giving us so many things. Let me return something. Let me do some service of Him." Servitude. That is further development of the appreciation of the greatness of God. And then further development is friendship. Friendship means... Service means I ask you, "Please give me a glass of water." You give me. And friendship means you are thinking, "How my friend will be... Now he may be wanting a glass of water." So before asking me, if you give me, "I think you may require a glass of water," that is friendship. Friendship means feeling friend's welfare always. Suhṛt. Friendship is not simply chatting. Friendship means thinking, "How my friend will be happy?" This is friendship. Then that friendship, when further developed, that is parenthood. Just like parents, they have no other consideration. They want to see, "How my child will be happy always?" And further development is conjugal love, just like man and woman, male and female, that love. That love includes everything--that appreciation of greatness, that servitude of service, the friendship, then maternal love, and further, offering everything for the lover.

                                                                                                                                                                        332700

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but they are being dictated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a man in fever talking nonsense. So that is due to fever.

Kīrtanānanda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are the actions of the jīva similarly controlled by Kṛṣṇa's superior energy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Kīrtanānanda: But everything is being controlled ultimately by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Either by inferior energy or superior energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: So his activities are never independent, either in Kṛṣṇa or...

Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is māyā. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by this false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me." So this material existence means because he is insane, he is thinking there are so many problems, "The tiger is there. He is attacking me. This, that, so many enemies, friends...," creating so many things. But they are all false. But he is attacked by that false hallucination. That's all. This is māyā. Everyone is thinking, "Oh, there are so many problems I have to solve. I have to make this, that, this, so many." But he has no problem. He has no problem. His only problem is how to accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He says, "Yes, you accept Me. Simply chant Kṛṣṇa. I am yours. That's all." But my, I am so misfortunate that I cannot chant even. All problems solved simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches that "O Kṛṣṇa, You are so kind that You have come to Me in the sound vibration, word, 'Kṛṣṇa.' I can very easily chant, and You remain with Me. But I am so misfortunate that I have no attraction even for this." You say people, "You chant Kṛṣṇa; you get everything." They will not believe it. If you say, "You press your nose. You pay me fifty dollars. I'll give you some nice mantra and this, that. You make your head like this, leg like this," "Oh," he'll say, "here is something." Something. "And this Swamiji says, 'Simply chant Kṛṣṇa.' Oh, what is this?" Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi durdaiva: "But I am so unfortunate that You have become so easily available in this age, but I am so unfortunate, I cannot accept it." So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness so easily being distributed, but they are so unfortunate, they cannot accept. Just see. And you give them bluff, you cheat them--they will, "Ah, yes, welcome. Yes." They'll welcome it. And cheaters are always ready: "Oh, there are so many customers for being cheated. Let me take advantage of it." So my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This world is the society of cheaters and cheated." The members are somebody are cheating, and somebody are cheated. The association of cheaters and cheated. So we want to save them from this society of cheaters and cheated.

 

Room Conversation                                May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio                                                      332844

Prabhupāda: They are very aristocratic family. I do, I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that family, you see? And from the very beginning the Kashi Mallik, they have got nice Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. So I was standing before the deity, and I was seeing, "Oh, He is Kṛṣṇa. Oh, people say He is dead. How he is dead?" Like that I was thinking. And then my, I asked my father, "Oh, I shall worship Kṛṣṇa, give me." So my father gave me Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, so I, whatever I was eating, I was offering them. So the statement of the śāstra and my practical experience corroborates. So we we have to take instance like that, you see? Sādhu śāstra guru vākya. We have to test everything from three positions: the spiritual master, scripture, and holy man. Scripture means, just like Bible. What is Bible? Scripture. Why the scripture? It is fully contains the instruction of sādhu, holy man, or spiritual master, Lord Jesus Christ, therefore is scripture. The scripture means the statement of liberated holy man. That is sādhu. Therefore, scripture should be tested through the holy man and spiritual master. Spiritual master should be tested through scripture and holy man, and holy man should be tested through spiritual master and scripture.

Allen Ginsberg: What is the difference between holy man and spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: No difference, but one has to test whether he is holy man. Then you have to, he has to corroborate with the statement of the scripture. Spiritual master is to be tested whether he is holy man, and whether there is corroboration in the statement of the scriptures. Sādhu śāstra guru vākya tinete koriya aikya. Just like the law court, the experienced lawyer's speaking and giving evidence. Sādhu-śāstra, and the judge is giving judgement, "Here is a statement, here is this lawbook." He has (indistinct). He also testing, the judge is also testing how the lawyer is speaking, and how it is corroborates to the lawbook. So similarly everything has to be tested in that way. The scripture should be consulted, and we should have to see whether it is corroborated. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. He's at once rejected.

                                                                                                                                                                        332887

Prabhupāda: You remain with us at least for three months and you'll forget your... You remain with us for three months. (laughter) With your associates, you just come to Vṛndāvana. We shall live together.

Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York. There we have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats. But...

Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.

Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?

Prabhupāda: Four acres.

Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.

Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.

Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?

Kīrtanānanda: I hope so.

Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?

Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat, very fertile, very rich land.

Prabhupāda: Where it is? Which province?

Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet who also is a fellow sādhana, whose family is from that area for many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such large scale with machines.

Kīrtanānanda: You can use those machines if you want. If you want to live in the so-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to pursue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food to keep the body healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is plenty.

Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the cow, or would you?

Kīrtanānanda: On four acres you can do it.

Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow, for...?

Prabhupāda: Fodder. Yes. We grow.

Guest: On food, it depends on what part of the east?

Allen Ginsberg: He's a farmer.

Guest: Whereabouts? What part? Cause a cow has to have about three acres for grazing.

Kīrtanānanda: So at most five acres. It's in that vicinity.

Allen Ginsberg: See we are interested in this problem of minimizing.

Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate.

Allen Ginsberg: And doing organic farming and minimizing the effort and also the material demands.

Kīrtanānanda: You can grow sufficient vegetables on a fraction of an acre.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. We had a big vegetable garden this year, too. I've been doing farming... Peter has been doing a great deal of farming.

Hayagrīva: How are you tilling your land?

Guest: We have a friend who comes out with a plow.

Allen Ginsberg: You're doing it by hand?

Kīrtanānanda: We just got a horse.

Hayagrīva: We just got a horse. We had bad experience with a rotary tiller. We got rid of it.

Kīrtanānanda: West Virginia. We gave it away.

Allen Ginsberg: So we're also going through a coovy(?) āśrama for poets. A little farm for poets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming, agriculture, that is nice. There is a proverb: agriculture is the noblest profession. Is it not said? Agriculture is noblest, and Kṛṣṇa was farmer, His father.

Allen Ginsberg: The cow.

Prabhupāda: Cow, yes. And in Vedic literature you'll find, a man is... Richness of a man is estimated by the possession of grains and cows. Dhanyena dhanavān. If he has got sufficient quantity grain, then he's to be... Formerly, even still in India, when a daughter is offered to a family, they will go and see how many morais(?) there are. Grain stock. If he sees that he has five, six, big, big grain stock, then he can... "Oh, this is nice house." You see? "They can feed." So in India still, the arrangement is that every family has got at least two years grain in stock. You see? And cow at least one dozen. No economic problem. And actually, that is the fact. You keep cows and have sufficient grains, whole economic problem solved. Eating. And sleeping, you can take some wood and four pillars. Of course, in your country it is not...

Allen Ginsberg: It's very cold.

Prabhupāda: Very cold. (laughing) India, all the year they are lying on the flat sky.

Kīrtanānanda: But still, it is very simple. We also experimented with that. You can build a nice shelter very... for ten, fifteen dollars.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, it depends. You see, where we are we're twenty below.

Kīrtanānanda: Well, we have pretty near that in West Virginia.

Allen Ginsberg: In Minnesota gets thirty, forty, sometimes, below.

Kīrtanānanda: There has to have sufficient wood sawed up.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Formerly, in Europe they were also living.

Allen Ginsberg: Man lived this way for 20,000 years, 30,000 years until the 19th Century.

Prabhupāda: So we have to live that. Plain living, high thinking. The necessities of this bodily existence, that should be minimized and not unhealthy. Healthy. To keep oneself fit. But the time should be utilized--develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual life. Then his whole problem is solved.

 

Room Conversation                                    May 12, 1969, Columbus                                                            333099

Prabhupāda: Yes. All are complex. The whole idea is to keep the devotees always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the program. Gradually, we shall introduce more and more so that he has no scope to go outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Allen Ginsberg: Well then the question is...

Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that we are trying to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious. So how he can remain twenty-four hours Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is the program.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the orthodox Jews have a very heavy, complicated, moment by moment ritual daily existence in that, for that same purpose. It was to keep them conscious of their religious nature. And that has maintained a small group of Jews over the centuries as an integral unit, but has tended to disappear in the later generations now simply because modern life does not allow that much Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Jewish consciousness or religious consciousness and attention, act by act throughout the day. So my question is how far can total Kṛṣṇa devotion, act by act all day, spread? How many people can that encompass in a place like America? Or are you intending only to get a few devotees, like several hundred or a thousand who will be solid and permanent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is my program. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for everyone. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. After many, many births one can come to this. So it is not possible that a mass of people, a large quantity of people will be able to grasp it. You see? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. Another place it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu. After many thousands of men, one may be interested how to liberate himself. And out of many such liberated persons, one may understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So understanding of Kṛṣṇa is not very easy thing. But Lord Caitanya is so munificent that He has given us a, I mean to say, easy process. (indistinct) Otherwise Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not easy. Because Kṛṣṇa is the last word of Absolute Truth. Generally, people are just like animals. Out of many such persons, one becomes interested in the scriptures. And out of many such persons, if they're attracted to the scriptures, they're attracted to the ritualistic ceremony for improving their economic condition. You see? Just like Christians, they go to... Not Christian, everyone. They take up religion with a motive that they may improve their economic position. Dharma, artha. Artha means money. And then why artha? Why you want money? Now, to satisfy senses. Kāma. Dharma, artha, kāma. And when one becomes frustrated in sense gratification, then liberation, to merge. These four things are going on. Dharma, artha, kāma. The Bhāgavata says that dharma is not meant for acquiring money. Money is not meant for satisfying senses. Sense gratification should be accepted simply to maintain this body. That's all. The real business is tattva-jijïāsā, to understand. The human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā naś ceha yat karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-pritir labho jīveta yāvatā. Kāmasya, sense gratification, does not mean you have to increase the volume of sense gratification. No. Jīveta yāvatā, you have to accept sense gratification so far as you can live very nicely. The real business is jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā. Every human being should be inquisitive to know the Absolute Truth. That is the real business of human life. So to come to that business, you won't find mass of people. It is not possible. You don't expect.

Allen Ginsberg: Your plan here in America, then, is to set up centers so that those who are that concerned can pursue their studies and practice a ritual?

Prabhupāda: My... Personally, I have no, I mean to say, ideal or ambition.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But it is the mission of human life to come to that point. So at least there must be some center or institution who may give them this idea. It is not that everyone will come. Just like there are many educational department. I know in Calcutta in our boyhood age, at that time Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee was vice-president. So he opened some classes in the university. In each class there were four or five professors, and at that time the professors' salary was 1300 dollar, 1400 dollar. And the fees were collected, at most thirty-six dollar per month. You see? But still the classes were to be maintained because the ideal must be there. So our mission is the intelligent persons of the world may know that this is not, simply seeking after sense gratification is not the aim of human life. Human life is meant by... Just like Bhāgavata says, jīvasya tattva-jijnasa. Vedānta says, athāto brahma-jijïāsā. The same thing. Bhāgavata is nothing but explanation of Vedānta. So Vedānta says that this human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman. Atha ataḥ. Now. Atha means now. Atha, hereafter. That means after passing through all animalistic way of life, when a man comes to the stage of civilized life, perfect civilized life, at that time his business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, what is the Absolute Truth. That is the whole Vedānta philosophy, "What is that Absolute Truth?" The same thing is explained in Bhāgavata, jīvasya tattva-jijïāsa. Jīvasya means all living entities. The main business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. So people, by education they are misled. Instead of getting them to the highest topmost stage, to the platform of inquiring about the Absolute, they are giving facilities how you can satisfy your senses nicely.

Allen Ginsberg: O.K., but now in America there is a bankruptcy of sense satisfaction. Everybody agrees.

Prabhupāda: Must be there. Must be there.

Allen Ginsberg: Everybody agrees that our civilization has come to the end of its possibilities materially. So everybody understands that. It's in New York Times editorials as well as in the editorials of ISKCON journals. Both. And there is a population explosion as you've noted and as the middle class has noted. So everybody then is looking for an alternative to material extension.

Prabhupāda: They should inquire about the Absolute Truth.

Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my original question was: is the complicated ritual and the Sanskrit language...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Now we are placing so many things in English language. Our all books are being published in English. Our magazine is in English.

Allen Ginsberg: But the question is, is the mode of life that you are proposing adaptable to many, many, many people?

Prabhupāda: That I say that is not for many, many people.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But there are, there is a thirst by many, many people for an alternative answer. For a better alternative system.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if they are actually thirsty, if they are actually thirsty, then they can adopt this. What is the difficulty there? There is no difficulty. So many American boys they have already adopted. They are not feeling any difficulty. They are feeling relief. What is difficulty? In what point it is difficult? Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting you are chanting.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is all in Sanskrit. What difficulty you are feeling?

Allen Ginsberg: I don't feel too much difficulty, except aesthetically I do feel a difficulty. Yes, there is. The difficulty I feel is that there should be some flower of the American language to communicate in rather than...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are seeking your help.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Well I haven't found a way, I still just stay chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore why I have come to you? That is also my view. I have come to America with this view, that America is on the summit of material civilization. They are not poverty-stricken. You see? And they are seeking after something. Therefore I have come, that "You take this, you'll be happy." That is my mission. And if the Americans take, then all other countries will take because America is leading at the present moment. So persons, exalted persons like you, you try to understand. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, anyone can chant. Even the child is trying. There is no difficulty. And so far what is our modes of living?

Allen Ginsberg: Mere chanting without the practice of a philosophy and a daily ritual...

Prabhupāda: Philosophy is there. We are teaching Bhagavad-gītā. We are talking on Bhāgavata philosophy, we are talking on Caitanya's philosophy.

Allen Ginsberg: And you have a daily ritual.

Prabhupāda: We are distributing papers. And... Everything is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my question then, as it was originally when you first asked me, what do I think...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Is the Caitanya-Kṛṣṇa ritual, as you have it here in this house and in the other āśramas, is that something that a large mass of people can enter into?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?

Allen Ginsberg: In America?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have seen. All my students are Americans. So it has to be... And it is spreading.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but what it requires is an adaptation of Indian dress and an adaptation...

Prabhupāda: That is not very important.

Allen Ginsberg: And an adaptation to Indian food.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian food... It is not Indian food. Are you not eating fruits?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then that is Indian food? Do you mean to say it is Indian food?

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the curries.

Prabhupāda: Curries you may boil only. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you have to take our taste. No. That is not the program, that to become Kṛṣṇa conscious you have to change your taste. No. We say from the Bhagavad-gītā... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ

toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion these vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, I accept that." But we are going to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are selecting foodstuff from this group. That you are all already accepting. Don't you take vegetables? Don't you take fruits? Don't you take grains? So where is the new item? Now, so far cooking, you can cook in your own taste. But the group must be this. Not meat. Because Kṛṣṇa does not say. That is our program. So you are already taking grains, you are eating fruits, you are drinking milk. So where is the difference? I don't find any difference.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, I suppose not. You could say there is no difference because the food is basically the same materially. It's just a question of the style.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you take... Style may be different. That's all right. Besides that, to maintain your body and soul together, you require eating, you require sleeping, you require mating, you require defense. We don't say that you don't do this. Kṛṣṇa was... Arjuna was defending. Rather, he wanted to be nonviolent. "Oh, what is the use of fighting?" Kṛṣṇa said, "No. It is required. You should." So where is the difference? There is no difference. Simply we are adjusting things so that you may become happy. Any intelligent man will take it. We are not prohibiting, but we are adjusting. So there is no difficulty. Simply intelligent persons like you should try to understand and take it and administer because your country is wanting this.

Allen Ginsberg: But there is a limit to how much the pronunciation of Kṛṣṇa will spread I think. There's a limit.

Prabhupāda: Hm? No limit. You can pronounce in any way Kṛṣṇa. K-r-i-s-h-n-a. That's all. Any way. Niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ.

Allen Ginsberg: The limit is people's prejudice...

Prabhupāda: So we don't say that why you are chanting Kṛṣṇa like this? We never say that. We simply say, please try to chant Kṛṣṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: Or let us say there would be a limit until the word Kṛṣṇa became as common in English as any other English word.

Prabhupāda: It is already in the dictionary. It is already in the dictionary. All dictionaries you will find Kṛṣṇa. What do you want more?

Allen Ginsberg: Something that will not disturb truckdrivers.

Lady (Indian): They can say Christ, they can say Kṛṣṇa. It is same.

Allen Ginsberg: That is true... True. But they don't say Christ. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Now Krist... I have read one book, Aquarian...

Kīrtanānanda: Aquarian Gospel?

Prabhupāda: Gospel, yes. In there it is explained that Krist means love. Christ means love. And Kṛṣṇa also means love. So there from Kṛṣṇa this word Krist has come. And in India somebody says Kristha. Instead of Kṛṣṇa, they say Kristha.

Allen Ginsberg: Where?

Prabhupāda: And in apa-bhraṁśa, has come Kestha. Generally they talk, instead of pronouncing very nicely Kṛṣṇa... Somebody's name is Kṛṣṇachandra. "Hey, Kesthara."

Allen Ginsberg: Where is this?

Prabhupāda: In India everywhere. Kestha. So Kestha, Kristha or Kṛṣṇa, they're on the same group, aiming the same group. It is not difficult.

 

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg       Columbus, Ohio, May 13, 1969                                              333527

Prabhupāda: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.

Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there.

Prabhupāda: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.

Guest (1): Vidyāpati.

Prabhupāda: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them.

Allen Ginsberg: According to the Aquarian Gospel, Christ was in Jagannātha Purī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And he saw Ratha-yātrā, and there is, name of Kṛṣṇa is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Ratha-yātrā.

Prabhupāda: Ratha-yātrā, as we are performing, San Francisco. So Lord Jesus Christ saw.                            

 

Nature's law is that you grow your own food.

 

You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. Not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."…Just in the beginning Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." That is the beginning of religious life. The animal killers cannot understand what is God. It is not possible. There is a statement in the Bhāgavata, viṇa paśughnat..."Who can remain aloof from the chanting of the holy name of God unless he's an animal killer?" Yes. Animal killers cannot understand what is God, what is God's name. That's not possible. (pause) Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of killing animal, He was embracing animal every morning, every... Yes. He was embracing.

 

This has killed the whole Hindu society or the sanātana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge.

 

We cannot pay anything but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms…But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good because the payment means he is serving the money. He is not serving the cause.

 

According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see…And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is.

 

And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all.

 

So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient.

So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers…And if people follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To revive social structure is our very serious mission.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME  TWO

Morning Walk                                           September 3, 1969, Hamburg                                                      334233

Guest (1): But I think for the people it is difficult to understand.

Prabhupāda: Because they are fools. How they can understand? (laughter) Simply fools eating meat and becoming like a tiger and dog. That's all. What...? Tiger may be very strong, but what brain he has got? No brain. (laughs) For brain, there must be a brāhmaṇa. Satya śama dama titikṣa. He must be qualified. A tiger may attack me and kill me. He is very strong. But that does not mean he has got better brain than me.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: So the modern civilization is making tigers, how he can be bodily strong and kill others, and discover atomic bomb. They are busy only on these things. The dog's business, how to attack another dog. That's all.

Prabhupāda: The animals, they are living in their own atmosphere, and these people, they come to kill them. Killing business has become very prominent at the present moment, and therefore they are being killed in the womb of the mother, abortion and killing child. That they do not know. Nature will not excuse you. You are killing; you'll be killed within your mothers' womb. You'll never see the light of the sun. You go on being killed, one after another, as many animals you have killed. They do not know. And time will come in this age when there will be no food and man will kill man and eat. That time is coming. Yes. They are now killing animal, but animal lives on this grass and grains. When there will be no grass, no grains, where they will get animal? They'll kill their own son and eat. That time is coming. Nature's law is that you grow your own food. But they are not interested in growing food. They are interested in manufacturing bolts and nuts.

Guest (1): Manufacturing?

Prabhupāda: Bolts and nuts.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes. I see.

Prabhupāda: Factory, big, big factory. So they will have to eat bolt and nuts. Where they will get food grains? They thought that "Let us eat the animal and manufacture bolts and nuts." Then when the animal will be finished, then what they will eat?

Satsvarūpa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food mean bolt and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supplied. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artifical butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket. (German translation).

Prabhupāda: And they do not see the natural dog is barking. Artificial, they pay ten dollars ticket and see how a man is barking like a dog. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. This is not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."

Guest (1): Ahiṁsā.

Prabhupāda: Just in the beginning Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." That is the beginning of religious life. The animal killers cannot understand what is God. It is not possible. There is a statement in the Bhāgavata, viṇa paśughnat.

nivṛtta tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka guṇānuvādāt

pumān virajyeta vinā paśughnāt

"Who can remain aloof from the chanting of the holy name of God unless he's an animal killer?" Yes. Animal killers cannot understand what is God, what is God's name. That's not possible. (pause) Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of killing animal, He was embracing animal every morning, every... Yes. He was embracing.

Haṁsadūta: But Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Don't come near. (German translation)

Guest (1): And also the holy Francis of Assisi was in relation with all animals in the Christian tradition.

Prabhupāda: In Christian tradition there is everything nice, but nobody's following. That is the difficulty. (break) ... portion of the road is not paved like this. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Both the man and animals will live prosperously when there is sufficient foodgrain. (break) ...at anna-sambhavaḥ. If there is sufficient rainfall, the production of foodgrains will be very easy. And yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. And if you satisfy the Lord by performing yajïa, then there will be sufficient rain. And yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. And our activities should be only to perform yajïa, to satisfy the Lord.

Guest (1): But Sanskrit word for..., yajïa?

Haṁsadūta: Yajïa, sacrifice.

Guest (1): Yeah, yajïa.

Prabhupāda: Yajïa means to satisfy the Lord. Just like glorifying the Lord, that is also yajïa. Saìkīrtana-yajïa. Yajïa means to satisfy the Lord. Do it anyway and there will be no scarcity. Everything will be all right. Annād bhavanti bhū...

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïad bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

Guest (1): So sacrifice are we self, or ourself. That means sacrifice to the Lord.

Prabhupāda: Sacrifice, there are different description of sacrifice. Just like one of the sacrifice is this chanting of the holy name of God. Yes. There are other sacrifices, offering in the fire butter, grains. That is also sacrifice. But in this age, these things are almost not available. Therefore chant the holy name. This sacrifice is recommended. It does not cost anything. Simply God has given you the tongue, and you chant. Any poor man can do it. (pause) (break) ...excursion? No?

Haṁsadūta: Cultured excursion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Weekly and planned.

Guest (2) (French man): There is regularly pūjā in your community?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here also, there is temple. There is regular pūjā, six times.

Guest (2): Offering light...

Prabhupāda: Light, food, everything. Dress, bathing, so many things. If you receive me, you must give me something eatable. Simply light, how can I be satisfied? (laughter) If you give me simply light and no food then how can I be satisfied? Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad ahaṁ aṣnāmi. "I will eat." (break)

 

Room Conversation                           September 11, 1969, London (Tittenhurst)                                         334386

Prabhupada: That you have to become a serious student.

Yoko Ono: Well, I mean, what do you mean by serious student? Maybe everybody, all of us are serious anyway. I mean, we're born serious or born, you know, unserious.

Prabhupāda: Then you must know what is distinction between Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, if you are serious student.

Yoko Ono: But does it depend on knowledge? I mean, the final judgement that you make?

Prabhupāda: Everything depends on knowledge. Without knowledge how can we make progress? Student means to acquire knowledge. Serious student means to acquire knowledge.

Yoko Ono: But not always the knowledgeable one are the ones who...

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Avāì mānasa gocaraḥ. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. These are the statements of Bhāgavata. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. It is... Śabdyate means sounded as Bhagavān, Paramātmā, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Paramātmā knowledge, and Bhagavān knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green. And if you enter into that hill you'll see, oh, there are so many varieties. There are animals, there are men, there are trees. But from the distant, you'll see just like a cloud. So although the same thing... Similarly, Absolute, when visioned from the Brahman point of view, it is just like cloud. Absolute when visioned as Paramātmā, it is just like something green. And Absolute when realized as the Supreme Person, it is just like you enter into the hill and see everything in detail. So although the focus is the same, the Brahmavādī and the Paramātmāvadī and the devotee's focus is the same, but due to their respective position the realization is different. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā you'll see,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

"I am the source of everything." This sarvaṁ means Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. These are clearly stated. Brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭhā. So Brahman knowledge or Paramātmā knowledge is within Kṛṣṇa knowledge. If one has got Kṛṣṇa knowledge he has got Paramātmā knowledge, Brahman knowledge. He has got the effect of yogic principle, meditation, he has got the effect of empiric philosophical speculation, and he is situated personally in the service of the Lord. So if you make comparative study, then this Kṛṣṇa knowledge includes all knowledge. The Vedas also confirm it, yasmin sarvam evaṁ vijïātam bhavati. If you understand the Supreme, then all knowledge becomes automatically revealed. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātam bhavanti. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, "Knowing this, you'll have nothing to know anymore." In the ninth chapter there is. So first of all we have to seriously study. Therefore I'm asking that to become serious student, what is the difference between Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān? Paramātmā is localized aspect of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. And Brahman is the effulgence of the Absolute. And Parambrahma, or Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Kṛṣṇa. So if you have full Kṛṣṇa knowledge, then you have got Brahman knowledge and Paramātmā knowledge. But if you have got simply Brahman knowledge or Paramātmā knowledge, you have no Kṛṣṇa knowledge. The same example can be... If you are in the sunshine, then you do not know what is sun globe and the predominating deity in the sun. But if you are by the side of the sun deity, you know what is sun globe and what is sunshine. Therefore impartially it is recommended that one should know the science of the Absolute Truth, or Kṛṣṇa. That will include all other knowledge. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. This is also a verse from Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "After many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when one is actually wise, jïānavān..." Jïānavān means has attained wisdom. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate: "He surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "He understands, 'Oh, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "Such great soul is very rare." And in the tenth chapter,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhavā-samanvitāḥ

"I am the origin. I am the source of everything. Everything emanates from Me. One who kows this science perfectly, he is budhā, he is intelligent, and he becomes engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." And the Vedānta-sūtra also, the first aphorism is athāto brahma-jijïāsā: "Now it is the time for inquiry about the Absolute, Brahman." So what is Brahman? The next aphorism is janmādy asya yataḥ: "Brahman, the Absolute, is that from whom everything is coming, emanating." That Absolute is personally saying, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "Everything is emanating from Me." So if you study Vedic literature very scrutinizingly, then you come to this conclusion, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness will include all other knowledge. Just like if you have got million dollar, ten dollar is included, five hundred dollar is included, thousand dollar is included. But one who has got ten dollar or five hundred dollar, he cannot claim that he has got million dollar. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa science means full spiritual knowledge. That is accepted by the ācāryas.

Room Conversation                                    December 12, 1970, Indore                                                         335228

Prabhupāda: For young man, the more he sleeps, he is dead. He's a dead body. A child, if he overeats, if he overeats, then it is not bad for him. So anyone overeats, it is bad, specially for old man. And if child gets diarrhea, it is good for him. When a old man gets diarrhea, it is death for him. Child gets diarrhea means whatever poisons he has acquired he gets out. His health becomes renovated. And old man, if he gets diarrhea, he loses his vitality. Chele hange bastre guru hage mostre.(?)

                                                                                                                                                                        335244

Prabhupāda: Oh. So we were talking of Ajamila, a brāhmaṇa resident of Kānyakubja, presently known as Kanauj. So, kānyakubje dvijaḥ kaścid asit patir..., asit kaścid dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ, nāmnā naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. That, what is known as, at the present, prostitute, they were know as dāsya, dāsī. (aside:) Don't make sound, "cut, cut." Silent. Dāsī... The kṣatriya kings also, when they married, with dowry many maidservants would follow the queen. That was the kṣatriya system. So Ajamila was the illegal husband of a prostitute, dāsī, dāsī-pati. Actually one should be husband of dharma-pati, religiously married, not a friend or a husband of illegal marriage. That is not allowed. Dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ nāmnā... Ajāmila nāmnā. His name was Ajāmila. Why the sound is in...? It is not possible to charge? "Cut, cut cut, cut." Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. Sadācāra means good behavior. Why good behavior was lost? Dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because he was associating with a prostitute, illegal sex. Therefore, anyone who wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must be sadācāra. His behavior must be very regulated. Asadācārī, unclean, nonregulated, cannot make any progress. If somebody says that "Whatever you like, you can do. There is no difference. You can imagine your own way..." This is going on nowadays. "Whatever you like, you can do. You can imagine your own way of self-realization." But that is not recommended in the Vedic literatures. One must be sadācāra. This is the beginning of sadācāra, to rise early in the morning, to cleanse, then chant, or chant the Vedic mantras or, simplified as in the present age, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mahā-mantra. This is the beginning of sadācāra. So sadācāra means to become freed from sinful reaction. Unless one follows the regulative principles he cannot be freed. And unless one is fully freed from sinful reaction he cannot understand what is God. Those who are not in sadācāra, regulative principles, for them... Just like animals, they are not expected to follow any... Of course, by nature they follow regulative principles. Still, but human being, having advanced consciousness, so instead of using it properly, they misuse the advanced consciousness and thus they become lower than animals. The animals, for want of advanced consciousness, cannot follow any regulative principles. But by nature they have got some regulative principle. A human being, advanced consciousness, instead of using it for advance in spiritual life they use it for sense gratification and thus they become lower than the animals.

So as soon as one becomes irregulated, without any sadācāra, then he doesn't care for any sinful activities for maintaining his body and soul together. He doesn't mind. Their philosophy is, what is called? "Existence is the first law of nature," or something like...

Guest (1): Self-preservation.

Prabhupāda: Self-preservation. So self-preservation... They do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible. If you want to advance in spiritual life you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ anta gataṁ pāpaṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā... This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion? Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity--if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self--what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on. No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, āsana, praṇāyāma--the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help. The first two steps are yama, niyama, then āsana, then praṇāyāma, then pratyāhāra, then dhyāna, then dhāraṇā, then samādhi. These are explained in the yogic śāstra or Bhagavad-gītā. So this man, although born of a brāhmaṇa father... Now, here it is said that naṣṭa-sadācāra. Although he is born of a brāhmaṇa father, his ācāra, his dealings for advancing in spiritual life...A brāhmaṇa is expected to be truthful, to be self-controlled, to be fully cognizant of spiritual life, practical application in life, jïānam, vijïānam, āstikyam, to have complete faith in the statement of the śāstras. That is... That is called āstikyam.We, according to our Vedic system, we do not accept any other system of religion because we consider them nāstika. That is the primary principle. Nāstika means one who does not believe in the Vedas. He is called nāstika. Not that he does not believe in God. One may believe in God, but one who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is called nāstika. Veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. Lord Buddha, although he is accepted as incarnation of God, but because he defied the Vedic principles it is said, nindasi yajïa-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ. Lord Buddha criticized the, I mean to say, sacrificial ceremonies because in the sacrificial ceremonies sometimes there is recommendation of killing an animal. But he was preaching nonviolence. So he criticized even the sacrifice in yajïa. He criticized. Nindasi... But a Vaiṣṇava is praying, "My dear Lord, you are defying the Vedic principles." He knows why the Lord is now defying the Vedic principles; therefore he is devotee. In spite of Lord Buddha's defying the Vedic principles, a devotee is offering him obeisances. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men. The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says, "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam. The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of... At least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes?

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Muhammad, he also did not believe in the Vedic literature. But according to Vedic literature, anyone who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is nāstika. Just like the Mohammedans, they say, "Anyone who does not believe in Koran, he is kafir." The Christians say, "Anyone who does not believe in the Bible, they are heathens." That is there everywhere. Similarly, Lord Caitanya said that veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. He is giving the definition because we have to follow the great personalities, great ācāryas. That is our process. We do not make any research, or we do not make any statement made by us. We simply accept the injunctions given by great ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. That is the process of Vedic system. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. One must approach a spiritual master and learn from him. So whatever spiritual master says, that is accepted. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Real evidence is, it must be stated in the scriptures, it must be explained by the spiritual master or saintly persons. That is evidence.

Guest (3): Śastra-vākya-pramāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, païca-pāṇòava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a brāhmaṇa family.Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say, gadāh, less intelligent. So brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Brāhmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third-class. And śūdra means fourth-class. And less than śūdra, they are called païcama, caṇòāla. They are accepted as animals, those who are less than śūdras. This is the Vedic system. Now, here it is said that this Ajamila, dvija... Dvija means he was properly initiated, second birth. First birth by father, mother, is śūdra. Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra--and four divisions of spiritual life--brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division--brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa--they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama. As soon as there is āśrama that means "Here some men, saintly persons, spiritually advanced persons, lives." That is āśrama. So that āśrama, when a student follows the regulative principles, he is supposed to be situated in brahmacārī āśrama. A householder living with family, husband, wife, children, if they are following strictly the regulative principles--gṛhastha āśrama. Similarly, retired life, if he is following the regulative principles--the vānaprastha āśrama. Similarly, a renounced life, sannyāsa, if he is following the regulative principles, that is sannyāsa āśrama. Not that imitating somebody, I put on a saffron dress and I become a sannyāsī and by begging I live. This has killed the whole Hindu society or the sanātana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge.

                                                                                                                                                                        335254

Therefore in this age the only method... It is a concession to the fallen people of this world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. They 'll not be able to follow all the regulative principles; therefore they must commit all kinds of abominable activities. Under the circumstances the śāstra or God has given a concession that you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and gradually you will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life. Other things you cannot follow. You are already fallen. So you take to this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense. And in order to save yourself from the offenses, a little austerity that you cannot have illicit sex life. Why should you have illicit sex life? Everyone's need is sex life. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. These are the bodily needs. So śāstra has sanctioned, "All right. You can live peacefully by married life and have sex life for children, good children." That is allowed. But why should you have illicit sex life? What is this? Irresponsible life. "I shall not take responsibility of family life, and I shall go on as so-called bachelor and have illicit life." But that is not good. That is garhitāṁ. Na sādhu mānye: "This is not good." This is the advice of Vedic literature. Ultimately you'll suffer. You are thinking at the present moment that you are avoiding suffering because family life is very responsible life. So if you think that family life is responsible, yes, it is responsible life. If you don't take, if you cannot take the responsibility, then remain as a brahmacārī. Why should you marry? Yes. If you practice brahmācārya, then you become free, seventy-five percent freedom immediately. But you do not want to undergo the austerities of a brahmacārī, and still, you want to remain as an unmarried man. Everywhere in the world it is going on. This is increasing. That is stated here, sadācāra. Naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. The illicit connection with man and woman will certainly make him abominable, fallen down to this abominable life. I... When I was... In my younger days, when I was in business, so I was to take agency one of big company, Smith's Transit Company. So they had to... I had to give some guarantee of my honesty. So in that program the question was whether married or unmarried. Because unmarried man mostly become dishonest. So that inquiry was there, "Whether he is married?" Married man cannot be dishonest because he has got responsibility. If he is arrested he will be insulted in his family. His family members will be in difficulty. Therefore he does not commit dishonesty very easily unless it is absolutely... But that should not be done. But unmarried man, because he has got no responsibility, he commits all kinds of sinful activity. That's a fact. Therefore in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we do not allow such illicit sex life, no. You must get yourself married. And practically, we are seeing, that is very effective and that is going on nicely. All right.

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Guest (4): Yes. Yes. Mahārāja, I am a teacher of Sanskrit and English in one of the higher secondary schools here and I am very much interested...

Prabhupāda: So you join us. Simply lip sympathy will not do. Just like these boys and girls, they have joined wholeheartedly. So I do not find any Indians.

Guest (4): I am ready to join but for my family liabilities. Is there is some...?

Prabhupāda: So you can join. You are family man, so it is not that we have no family men. We have got many family men. Now, they are all family. These girls, they have got a husband. And some of them, they are living separately. Just like one of my students, Professor Howard Wheeler. He is married man. He is living separately. Not separately. He is also conducting our, one establishment, New Vrindaban. So it is not that one has to live with us. He can live separately also, but his whole life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.

Guest (4): I would like to live with you and tour with you.

Prabhupāda: So why not come and live and tour with me? Who forbids you? But it is not possible to pay anything for your family expenditure. That is difficulty. We cannot pay anything but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms. In that case it is not possible to pay something. There is... (break) It is selling all over Europe. (Hindi)

Guest (4): Mahārāja, could you employ me in some...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, employ, I can employ in any way. But there is no payment.

Guest (4): I am M.A. in English, M.A. in Hindi. I am trying to devote myself to this work...

Prabhupāda: So please come.

Guest (4): But for my family liabilities...

Prabhupāda: What amount you want for your family, minimum?

Guest (4): Five hundred a month.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Yes, you require five hundred. I know that. That is not much. To maintain a family nowadays five hundred rupees is not much but where is the money? How can I pay you?

Guest (4): I would be a very good asset to your publications work.

Prabhupāda: That I know. You are qualified, educated boy. You can do it. But one thing I can do, that you can live with your family just like they are living. That I can arrange. And whatever food we can provide you have to accept. We can... We can arrange for the education of your children also, everything. But we cannot pay anything. That is not possible. We can take charge of the husband and wife. We can take charge of your children. But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good because the payment means he is serving the money. He is not serving the cause.

(tape of kīrtana plays for a second)

Guest (4): His old mother listens to these chantings. (break)

Prabhupāda: No, no, he has appeared to establish dharma. So what is the dharma according...

Guest (4): Śāstra-dharma. Śāstra means Ārya-samājī-pratiṣṭhā...

Prabhupāda: So what is that śāstra veda dharma?

Guest (4): Vedic dharma.

Prabhupāda: So what is that? Explain it practically.

Guest (4): Yama, niyama, samādhi, dhyāna...

Prabhupāda: No, that is the process. So what is the end of dharma?

Guest (4): Self-realization.

Prabhupāda: What is that self?

Guest (4): That is to be realized. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is going on. One has no idea what is dharma, what is the end, but he becomes, "Oh, I have appeared for establishing dharma." And when he is asked, "What is that dharma?" "It is to be realized." Then what you have realized that you are preaching dharma?

Guest (4): Sadācāra...

Prabhupāda: Sadācāra is the means. Sadācāra is not the end.

Guest (4): Can I know as to what made these young people want to leave the affluent present society and join this...

Prabhupāda: Because they are sincere, seeking after...

Guest (4): Pardon, sir?

Prabhupāda: They are sincere, sincerely seeking after. Their material business is finished because they have enjoyed enough of material things. Now there is spiritual inquiry. That is natural. When our material necessities are complete, we enjoy, then next stage is spiritual hankering. And that is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma-jijïāsā. After finishing karma-kāṇòīya life... Karma-kāṇòīya life means you do pious activities and enjoy life. That is called karma-kāṇòīya. So... But the fact is that even you get your birth in a very rich family, you cannot avoid the sufferings of this material nature. Just like yesterday we had an interview with Holkar(?), His Highness Holkar, the old gentleman. So he was a king. He has got very beautiful wife, very beautiful family, very palatial building, but he is not happy, we saw. So the foolish people, they do not know that in this material life there is no happiness. They hanker after these palatial buildings, the motor cars, the bank balance, and so on, so on. Therefore those who have enjoyed all these things but have not become happy, there is another inquiry: "How to become happy?" (break) ...say America, they have enjoyed material life. Their children have enjoyed material life to the fullest extent but they are not happy. Therefore they have come to this spiritual life.

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So Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person, what he has read Gītā? He is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply has labored. That's all. That is the test. Don't you agree to this point? So anyone who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has no knowledge of Gītā. He immediately becomes foolish. That is our test. So Muktananda, what do you think?

Muktananda: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the test, whether he has understood. In the Seventh Chapter,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

"Anyone... How one simply by concentrating his mind upon Me," mayy āsakta, "with āsakti..." Āsakti means attachment, love. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ. Mind attached to Kṛṣṇa in love. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. And performing the bhakti-yoga, mad-āśrayaḥ, under the disciplinary action by a bona fide spiritual master, mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ: "Then he can understand without any doubt and fully what I am." That means one who has not understood Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has not found the yoga properly. And why? That is mad-āśrayaḥ, he does not follow the disciplic succession. Mad āśrayaḥ. And in the beginning, in Fourth Chapter it is said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam. So these foolish persons, they do not follow all these principles; therefore they cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone... We say... It may appear to be very strong word but that's a fact. (Hindi) That's a strong word, that's all right, but he's a chor. (Hindi) Strong language used here... (Hindi)

Guest (6): (unclear)... From the very day I saw this movement, I have intent only in Kṛṣṇa, not in any other movement.

Prabhupāda: So that is our movement. Wherever we go, we find out sincere persons, immediately attract. Yes. But if he's not sincere, we cannot attract. If he's sincere, immediately attract. That is the value of this movement. All my students, they were attracted only because they were sincere. Anyone sincere in seeking after the Absolute Truth will be attracted.

Guest (6): I am not getting ...(unclear)

Prabhupāda: Ekāgra. Ekāgra. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ, therefore it is said. "One has to perform this bhakti-yoga under My representative." Mad-āśrayaḥ.

Guest (6): I am very grateful to you.

Prabhupāda: And there is Narottama dāsa Öhākura-Prārthanā. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tare tyāge: "One who takes āśraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ... Because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately... If he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately. It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra... This is the meaning of yasya prasādad bhagavat-pra... Without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-prasādad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected. In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary. Immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways. Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient... "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed--"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict.

Guest (6): (unclear) ...From tomorrow he was not able to get (unclear)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Yes. Therefore in our system Vaiṣṇavāparādha is the greatest offense, to commit offense at the lotus feet of a Vaiṣṇava, and spiritual master is to be considered the first Vaiṣṇava. If there is aparādha, that is great, greatest offense. That will spoil the whole spiritual life. These are stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. In Teachings of Lord Caitanya you'll find.

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Haṁsadūta: King of India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very nice.

Haṁsadūta: That never happened.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members... Just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy... I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" You cannot change his habits. Sva... Yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be...

Haṁsadūta: Canakya Pandit... I have see that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow... The crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man. "How great I am, a very beautiful bird."

Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democrat party in America is the ass.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you...

Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses.

Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant and the Democratic party is ass, a donkey.

Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and sages, they w ere guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the... Just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states... Now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw... How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low-grade. It is the sitting room and a naked picture has... How much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no (indistinct) education they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ. You know that story? "Again become mouse."

Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah, I've heard that.

Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound--laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take--these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa--then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. (break) It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh?

Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston.

Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston.

Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the...

Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting about current events.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Giriraja, you can do that?

Giriraja: I could try.

Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you... Every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then you start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram. What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri..., come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brahma-muhūrta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment.

335833

Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fat. Also too much ghee also. That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just the Marwaris... (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is... In Āyur-Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-guṇa. There is a book, Dravya-guṇa. So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh--birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, "You Are What You Eat."

Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian.

Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health.

Prabhupāda: Liver?

Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health.

Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations.

Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything.

Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended.

Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take?

Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take.

Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can.

Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw...

Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is clear that without liver extract you shall die, you can take.

Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death it is recommended you may take anything to save your life.

Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even.

Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant?

Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara, immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today, or tomorrow, or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living.

Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son.

Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: He was thinking but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him...

Prabhupāda: But simply calling, "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes.

Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural.

Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord.

Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Öhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Öhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Öhākura Haridāsa and the harlot. She began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good and simply by that association she began to chant or by previous association...

Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Öhākura. For three days, three days she associated.

Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association; therefore she began to chant.

Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason.

Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That is not.

Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines

Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that.(?) Direct association with Haridāsa Öhākura. Why previously?

Himāvatī: We want to say that previously she had done some chanting.

Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders.

Himāvatī: You heard about that article?

Prabhupāda: No.

Himāvatī: That was the (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given it is not against the śāstra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

sādhu saìga sādhu saìga sarva śāstra kaya

lava mātra sādhu saìge sarva siddhi haya

"Even a moment's association with a pure devotee--all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but sādhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal.

Revatīnandana: If the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed sprouts, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked.

Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again.

Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to... That brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaìgala Öhākura. Bilvamaìgala Öhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava-bhakti. Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take (devotees offer obeisances)

Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahmajyoti, that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky (indistinct) there's no shelter there so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body, but spirit, being restless can remain anywhere...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge, and blissful life. So there is no bliss.

 

Room Conversation                                       December 21, 1970, Surat                                                        336009

Revatinandana: What is that word?

Prabhupāda: Daridra. Daridra means poor, poor. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is manufactured word by Vivekananda. They are so proud that "When a beggar comes at your door, you should treat him as Nārāyaṇa, daridra." These are simply high-sounding words. What they are doing actually for the daridras?

Revatinandana: So that is service in the mode of ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatinandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients. The patients are increasing. Hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temples is increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is welfare department? The expenditure increasing.

Revatinandana: Yes, (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self-independent. But why state has to give them help? That's not good. You may be... Just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported.

Yadubara: But what can the state do? Should the state just leave the people alone?

Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.

Yadubara: But America is so far from that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar. So he was charitably disposed. He went to a brāhmaṇa and asked him--he was a great learned scholar--"Can I help you any way?" And the pandit replied, "No. I don't require your help. I am quite satisfied." "How you are satisfied?" "Oh, my, these students, they bring some rice. So my wife boils that, and I have got this tamarind tree. I take some leaves and prepare some juice out of it. That is sufficient." So he was satisfied. That's all. But he was a learned scholar. Similarly, Canakya Pandit... You have perhaps heard. He was the greatest politician. He was prime minister of India. He was living in a cottage and just giving instruction. So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient. And now in your country, oh, you have to attend office fifty miles off. And because you have to take this trouble, Kṛṣṇa has provided with car. You are thinking, "I am advanced." You don't think that "Although I have got car, I have to go fifty miles off from my home." This is illusion. You are thinking, "I am advanced. I am happy. I have got this car." This is illusion. Yes. Gaurasundara was going to maintain, and he drives fifty miles off, Honolulu. The poor fellow had to rise early in the morning. You see? And so much haste.(?) Therefore: "Gaurasundara, you better give up this job. Just depend on Kṛṣṇa." So he has given up. What is this? Fifty miles going by motorcycle or motor car, how much tedious it is. But still, they are satisfied that "We are advanced." And because they have many cars, therefore in your country always there is that (makes traffic noise), "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," wherever I go.

Revatinandana: And more problems come after that.

Prabhupāda: Simply, wherever you go, (makes traffic noise) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," and "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh." Up in the sky, "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh," and in the street, "sonh, sonh..." And then, when digging, "gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut!" (laughter) Is it not? Don't you feel botheration. But they are thinking, "Oh, America is very much advanced in machine." And when there is that garbage tank? "Ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon!" (laughter) So many sounds are going on, always. Eh? Of course, you have got very nice city, nice roads everywhere. But this trouble... You have created so many troubles. And there are news that one lady was a patient. She became mad for the sounds. And I think they are thinking very seriously how to stop all these sounds. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Especially they have these airplanes now.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: They make such a tremendous sound that they break windows and everything else.

Prabhupāda: Now we are with Sambhu in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problems, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced. And Bhāgavata says that there is no problem. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then how I shall live? That, the answer, is tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like you don't aspire for miseries, but it comes upon you, it is forced upon you, similarly, happiness also will be forced upon you, whatever you are destined to receive. So don't try for happiness or discarding distress. That will go on. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which, without your trying, it will never be fulfilled. You have to voluntarily try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, revive it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. You do it--because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But He doesn't do that. He doesn't interfere with your independence. He says, "Do it." Therefore you have to try for it, not for other things. Other things, already there are. For the birds and beasts there is no problem for eating. Why your problem should be? Just like a prisoner. He has no problem for eating. The government supplies. He has only problem that he should not be criminal. That is his problem. He should try for that: "No more I shall become a criminal." That is the real activity. But he thinks... If in the prisonhouse you say, "What shall I eat?" no, eating is already there. Even you are a prisoner, the government has supplied his eating. Similarly, God has supplied everyone, cats and dogs, for eating. Why not for you? You have created your own problem. Real problem is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that.

Yadubara: These problems will take care of themselves if people develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: Then there is no need to deal with the problem then.

Prabhupāda: There is no problem. At least we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we have no problem for eating. Is it? Is there any problem?

Haṁsadūta: There's problem. Eating too much!

Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is practical. If you have any problem, you join us. You will have no problem for eating. That I can guarantee you. Wherever you go, you shall eat sumptuously. Yes.

Devotee (3): Is it all right to finish rounds(?) in the temple when there's nothing to do?

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (3): This afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Not afternoon. You have to do it in the morning when there is nothing.

Guest (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (4): He danced on saìkīrtana today.

Prabhupāda: Perhaps in other engagement he cannot dance. Actually there is no problem. Why there should be problem? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human being are 400... Out of that, 80%, they are uncivilized. So all these living entities have no problem for eating. This 20% or 15% people who are called as civilized, they have problem. They have created problem. At least in India, say, hundred years before, there was no problem for eating, even for the śūdra class or any... No, there was no... The society was so made, there was no problem. Why fifty years? In 1933 or '36 in Vṛndāvana somebody wanted milk, some pilgrimage amongst ourselves. So went to a house. So, "Can you supply us some milk?" "Ah, how much you want?" So it was about ten pounds. So she supplied immediately, one woman, and when she was offered price, "Oh, why shall I take a price for ten or twenty pounds of milk? Oh, you can take it." That is my practical experience. Milk was so freely available. So simply we are creating problems by godless civilization. That is a fact.

Haṁsadūta: Once you said we are making solutions to self-created problems, and we think it's advancement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: We've created a big thing and then make so many solutions.

Prabhupāda: Just like we just take example from your country. You are constructing so many highways, freeways. Still, there is problem. Still, even in the highways, sometimes blocked. Aiye. (Hindi) Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido. (Hindi) We do not dissuade persons to stop work. No. That is not our... You do your work, but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's it. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. Kṛṣṇa never stopped him from his occupation, but he was taught Kṛṣṇa conscious even in the battlefield. (Hindi-- break) You want to see? Yes. Where is that book?

Haṁsadūta: Here, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Kiïcid adhīta. (break) ...a thousand pages of this size. This is four hundred pages, but that Gītā will be thousand pages. But we shall use very thin paper. Yes. It is available after some time.

Guest (2): Where?

Prabhupāda: In our center in India.

Guest (2): Is this same?

Prabhupāda: No, it is Nectar of Devotion. Where are our other books?

Haṁsadūta: In my suitcase. Shall I bring them?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bring. (break) Kṛṣṇa, canvassing Himself, says, Kṛṣṇa, Himself canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. "Give up everything. Just surrender unto Me." How many do it? So we are canvassing on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. He personally said practically. So you don't expect that everyone will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is very difficult.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult, but it is the mercy of Lord Caitanya that through this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement they are coming so soon. Otherwise, the subject matter is very difficult. (pause) So many flowers?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prahupada: So why not give everyone.

Haṁsadūta: Everyone?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Do you practice meditation in your center?

Haṁsadūta: Our meditation consists of chanting the holy name of God. Or, in fact, we are always absorbed in meditating because whatever we do, we do on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So our mind, which is the center of our activities, is always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. The principle of meditation is to fix up our mind on Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me. Become My devotee. Bow down to Me. Worship Me. Give your love to Me. In this way, you will come to Me." So if we want to go to Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: That is the highest, topmost type of yoga. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo mataḥ: "Anyone," Kṛṣṇa says, "who is thinking of Me always within his heart, with devotion and love, he is the topmost yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as soon as you chant Kṛṣṇa and hear it, immediately you think of. And the chanting is not done by any ordinary man. Unless one has love and devotion for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot chant. You just study with this verse. Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam, āntarātmanā: "Within, he is topmost." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are training people to become the topmost yogis.

Guest (3): Do they have to practice every day?

Prabhupāda: The practice is very simple. Anyone, when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, even child joins. Even a small child, he also claps and joins. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstras, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva. In this age nobody can meditate actually. It is very difficult. Maybe one or two persons can meditate, but that is not for all. But here Kṛṣṇa conscious, the chanting, is so nice, that even a child can take part. It doesn't require that he should be educated, he should be rich or he should be enlightened, no. As he is, simply if he takes part in this... Even woman. We were chanting. There was some roaring. As soon as we begin chanting, it stopped. This is authorized. This is recommended. And this is practically being... Now in European and American countries, four or five years back...

Guest (3): Chanting is mental concentration, is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting and hearing, locked up. Mind is locked up. And because the Kṛṣṇa vibration is locked up, then Kṛṣṇa is locked up, because there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, absolute. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. Therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, His form, His pastimes.

nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś

caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ

purnaḥ śuddho nitya-mūkto

'bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ

Because nāma and the nāminaḥ, being inseparable, therefore nāma is also purna, nitya, śuddha, mukta.

Guest (3): What is the trance that... The meditation, trance enters. It is called...

Prabhupāda: Trance is... The actual meditation means concentrate one's mind on Viṣṇu form. That is real meditation. But now they have, the impersonalists and voidists, they have manufactured so many things, but actual meditation means...

Guest (3): Transcendental meditation. Trans...?

Prabhupāda: Transcendental meditation. The transcendental meditation means to think of Lord Viṣṇu.

 

 

 

Room Conversation                                    January 6, 1971, Calcutta                                                            336121

Devotee (2): We were getting a cow but we joined ISKCON just before we got the cow. We were going to get one for four hundred dollars. It was giving sixteen quarts a day and had a calf.

Prabhupāda: Sixteen quarts?

Devotee (2): A day, yes. There was a small calf also.

Prabhupāda: There must be grazing ground for cows. Then there is no problem.

 

Room Conversation                                  January 17, 1971, Allahabad                                                         336126

Prabhupāda: Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. "Eat any... All Brahman, all Nārāyaṇa. You are Nārāyaṇa. Goat is Nārāyaṇa. So Nārāyaṇa is going in the belly of Nārāyaṇa. What is the wrong? One Nārāyaṇa is going, being absorbed by another Nārāyaṇa." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Nārāyaṇa.

Haṁsadūta: They actually say that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: "One Nārāyaṇa is being absorbed by another."

Prabhupāda: One respectable pleader in Allahabad, I said, "Why you are eating this?" We also find that he's a very religious man. So I inquired. He was just like our father; still, I inquired. He said, "No, what is the wrong there? Nārāyaṇa, Brahman. So one Brahman is going into the belly of another Brahman, Brahman being absorbed, brahmeti." So they have got so dangerous theory. But still, we shall not hesitate to kick on their face but because they are making a propaganda, it should be peaceful. But I become very much agitated with this nonsense because I know they are creating havoc. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (door closes) So many rascals. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...

                                                                                                                                                                        336480

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Oh, you haven't got. You have got? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (birds crying) The sunrise is declared. "Koo koo koo koo koo." Yes. Nature's way. They'll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. He's a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws and therefore we suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante. And one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the māyā. And those who are in māyā they are sleeping. And those who are not in māyā they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? Mām eva ye prapadyante: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the māyā's contamination." Just see. There is maìgala ārati. In Vṛndāvana just at four o'clock. You have heard?

Yamunā: I was just thinking, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Immediately there is "dung, dung, dung, dung," all temples. Immediately. And people are running. Oh, they will gather all to the Deity, temple. Hundreds of people will go automatically. The same man who was living at home, a very degraded condition, as soon as he goes to Vṛndāvana he becomes habituated to all these things automatically. Automatically. Yes. The society, association, is very important.

Yamunā: Those beautiful birds, the peacock birds also at this time, they are flying in trees and waking up now and make that sound. Oh, Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: So the society is very important thing. Any, anything, society... The businessmen, they have got their association, society, to improve. Therefore the standard of this International Society should be kept very carefully. Then who will come in touch with this society will be improved automatically by association. All right. Even in the bird society there are swans and there are crows, by nature, and the crows will never go to the swans, and the swans will never come to the crows. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yes. Therefore society required. Unless you come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, how you can develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The same principle. Satāṁ prasaìgān... Satāṁ prasaìgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathaḥ. Vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. It becomes very palatable, satāṁ prasaìgāt, in the association of devotees, not otherwise. (end)

 

 

 

Room Conversation                                  February 14, 1971, Gorakhpur                                                      336788

Prabhupāda: ...my Guru Mahārāja was in his last days, these rascal doctors injected... Our, this Kuïjabihārī, Tīrtha Mahārāja brought so many big, big doctors. And he protested, "Why are you giving me injection?" He protested. He personally said, "Why are you giving me injection?" And if you bring a doctor, the rascals will not stop. "Oh, that is our treatment. We must try our best." They will plead like that. "To give more trouble to the patient, that is our business." Inventing new medicines means inventing new means of giving trouble. That's all. As soon as you ask them whether by injection the life is guaranteed, they will say, "No. There is no guarantee. Let us try, make experiment." Yes. In hospital, as soon as you get (microphone moving)... Whatever nonsense knowledge they have got, they make experiment, at the risk of other's life.

Haṁsadūta: When Himāvatī broke her leg they wanted to operate. I said, "Oh, no, no chance. No operation." Then they immediately said, "Then maybe she'll never walk again."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Haṁsadūta: So I said, "Well, how can we tell?" They said, "Well, there's no way to tell." I said, "Suppose we operate. Then it's guaranteed that everything will be all right?" They said, "No." But they thought they should do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They canvass, they convince like that and make experiment. That is their business. They have no, I mean to say, assured idea. Simply experiment. All these hospitals, they are meant for making experiment. I think I have told you one story of my servant. Did I? Huh?

Haṁsadūta: No. Please tell us the story. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) The servant was crying, "Oh! I am dying, I am dying, I am dying." So I immediately called ambulance and took her to the hospital. Then, when I went there, there were so many neophyte doctors. They experimented, and they said, "Immediate operation is required." "Why?" They gave us some technical terms. Then their leader doctor came. He said, "All right. Let us see this night. Then, next morning, we shall operate." So I asked him, "I can go? He may remain in your charge?" "Yes." So I went, came back. And when I was absent, another servant of the neighbor, he told to my wife, that "Babuji..." Babuji means master. "...it is unnecessarily he has taken to hospital. He was drunk, and he was crying like that. (laughter) He drank." So my wife told that he was drunk, and he was therefore crying like that. "No, no. Doctor says that it is a serious case (laughter) and it is to be operated." And the next morning the servant came back. "And why you come back? You were to be operated?" "Oh, thik hai. It is now all right." Just see. The rascals were going to operate. He was drunk. In drunken state he was crying, and they took it a case of operation. That is my practical experience. Everything you take there: "Operation."

Devotee (1): That's a symptom of the modern civilization, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Operation. That is... Demons are to be cheated like that. Simply operation. Simply operation. Bas.

Devotee (2): Also they're trying to get money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Injection and operation. That is in their hands.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we try to avoid getting injections as much as possible?

Prabhupāda: That is my opinion. But as soon as you go to a medical man, especially in your country, first of all, you have to give blood, immediately. (laughter) One ounce of blood immediately. First business. And then other injection. Because I underwent so many medical examination, I have got experience. For my immigration. I think, three or four times I was under health examination, and blood-taking, and injection. Of course, it is not very painful. That arrangement is there. But the business is like that, "First of all give your blood; then talk of other things." Better to die without a doctor. (laughter) That's the best principle. Don't call any doctor. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and die peacefully.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what about when you're not going to die... What about when you have some problems that's not fatal. Then who would we call?

Prabhupāda: Then go take injection. What can be done? (laughter) There is no alternative.

Devotee (1): How long will you be feeling bad from the injection?

Prabhupāda: If it remains simply for a while that is sufficient to kill you. There is no question of how long.

Devotee (1): It's just that you don't look very... You don't look like your normal self. There's no...

Prabhupāda: Sometimes they do business, simply water they inject. Yes. Simply water and take fee. They know there is no necessity of medicine; still, they will inject some water, distilled water, and take the fees. I have seen the doctors and some, I mean to say, ordinary man, illiterate. "What kind of treatment you want? Injection or medicine?" So naturally, he will say, "The best one. I want to..." "Then you have to take injection."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ. In every step there is danger.

Mālatī: This lecture was recorded in Gorakhpur, U.P., India, on the evening of Feb. 14, 1970 (end)

 

Room Conversation                                  February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur                                                      336879

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are, we have prescribed rules for chanting. You must finish sixteen rounds, then go to sleep, whole day sleeping. You finish that sixteen rounds and sleep whole day. I have no objection. (laughter)

Devotee: But then...

Prabhupāda: There is no then. Don't talk nonsense. If you are so much addicted to sleeping, you simply chant sixteen rounds and whole day sleep. But don't take food also. (laughter) Don't get up taking prasādam. "Now I have to honor prasādam. Let me eat sumptuous, then again sleep more."

Devotee: Is there some order of priority in service then? I mean, sixteen rounds is more important than anything else. And then following that, there's something else.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you cannot do anything else, you simply chant sixteen rounds, take prasādam, and sleep. (laughter) It is special prerogative for you. There is no then. This is, this is order for you.

Devotee: In a situation where there's a choice between say chanting and reading. Is chanting a better activity than reading?

Prabhupāda: Yes, chanting and reading is the same thing.

Devotee: But is one better than the other?

Prabhupāda: No better. That I explained. It is absolute. Either you chant or read, the same thing. But you have to fulfill the sixteen rounds. That's it. All right. Let us... (end)

 

Room Conversation                                         June 22, 1971, Moscow                                                          337124

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, more than three thousand, three thousand initiated. And outside admirers, there are many, many. And this means these three thousand who have accepted the principles, just like these boys. So there are fifty-five branches. In each branch we are maintaining twenty-five to hundred students. So just imagine.

Prof. Kotovsky: But does that mean the students, they abstain for normal West European universities their own, all their... How to explain it? Their... For instance, can a normal student from, for instance, from one of the best universities, who is attending lectures in normal way, etc., also be initiated and admitted to your community?

Prabhupāda: No, both ways. Both ways. If you want to be initiated, you are welcome. If not, you come. Try to understand our philosophy. Read our books. There are so many books, magazines. And question, answer. Try to understand the philosophy. It is not that all of a sudden a student comes and becomes our disciple, no. They first of all come, associate, try to understand. Then... We do not canvass. When he voluntarily says that "I want to be your..."

Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no canvassing.

Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes. That's what I thought. But what I am most interested in... For instance, not a student but a young worker or a young son of a farmer, he would abstain from his old life and he would be initiated and join your community into a given center. How he would entertain himself?

Prabhupāda: The thing is... I have alre...

Prof. Kotovsky: In the sorts of day to day life...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: Material life...

Prabhupāda: Now, material life, it is...

Prof. Kotovsky: Would he be paid to stay in that center?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali?

Prof. Kotovsky: No, but...

Prabhupāda: As a vibration...

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru hāya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become...

Prof. Kotovsky: Guru.

Prabhupāda: ...the spiritual master.

Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating brāhmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script...

Prabhupāda: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish.

Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Purāṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...

Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late brāhmaṇas who tried to...

Prabhupāda: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhāratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhāratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bhārata ruled over this planet, it is called Bhāratavarṣa from Mahārāja Bhārata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called sanātana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Just like...

 

Interview                                                        July 4, 1971, Los Angeles                                                        337439

Interviewer: Well, on religion... What I would like to highlight, what I would like to emphasize is that we place a good deal of emphasis on religion in the ways it gets one man to deal with another man. The ethic of religion. Now...

Prabhupāda: No. Our point is not that.

Interviewer: In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our... We must clear. We are not concerned how one man deals with another man. Our point...

Interviewer: As a part of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Interviewer: This is not important?

Prabhupāda: No. This is not important. Because we know as soon as one understands how to deal with God, he'll automatically deal with other men very nicely.

Interviewer: But you know... Let's take the Christian religion for example.

Prabhupāda: No, I do not wish...

Interviewer: You know the ten commandments for example, there is a heavy emphasis in the ten commandments on the relationships between one human being and another. "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal." That sort of thing.

Prabhupāda: But I say that Jesus Christ never said, he never meant, "Thou shall not kill," means only human being. Where is that evidence? Jesus Christ never said "Thou shall not kill means it means only human being." Thou shall not kill any animal.

Interviewer: Any life.

Prabhupāda: Any life. That is religion.

Interviewer: It has never been interpreted that way.

Prabhupāda: But you have interpreted different way, but he said "Thou shall not kill." He never said "Thou shall not kill amongst human being." Why do you interpret in that way?

Interviewer: How would I recognize a true follower of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by his behavior? What would his traits be? What would his outward expressions be?

Prabhupāda: Yes. His behavior, he's a perfect gentleman. That's all. You cannot find any fault in him. That is perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are prohibited not to eat meat.

Interviewer: Not to eat meat?

Prabhupāda: No. They are prohibited from illicit sex life. They are prohibited to intoxication. They do not smoke even, what to speak of other intoxications. And they are prohibited not to indulge in gambling. So if they can observe these four rules and regulations, they become perfect men. Simply.

Interviewer: Or women I presume.

Prabhupāda: Woman or man. Anyone.

Interviewer: Men or women. There is place for women in the religion too isn't...?

Prabhupāda: Woman and man have got the same right. Just like we are getting married boys and girls. They're following the same principles. The same principles. So these are the four pillars of perfect life. And if we indulge in these things, illicit sex life, meat-eating, and intoxication, and gambling, then they become the four pillars of sinful life. And If we take them away, then they become, the prohibited portion becomes the pillars of perfect life.

 

Room Conversation                                        August 14, 1971, London                                                        338092

Prabhupāda: Anyway. We are teaching how to love God. That's all.

Guest (1): Yes. So we're doing the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless.

Guest (1): How does he know?

Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see, whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there.

Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression loving God or loving mammon.

Prabhupāda: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda viraheṇa me

Yugāyitaṁ, "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava-viraktir anyatra syāt. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter. We want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one, a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another. Because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa, or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And method is simple. Chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant Kṛṣṇa. If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that.

Guest (1): We say Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that "Chant the holy name of God." If you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, Kṛṣṇa. We don't say Kṛṣṇa.

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis

tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ

etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi

durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

Lord Caitanya says, in each and every name of God... There are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So... And there is no hard and fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age..." Why...? Not in this age. Every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught... They have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā. "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America, and other places, they were... I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has... Other has to calculate. Then calculate, then serve. Yes. There is so much profit.

Guest (1): We see that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done?

Guest (1): Don't worry about that.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse. "No."

Guest (1): When you chant, do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things?

Prabhupāda: Other things?

Guest (1): Well, many things require your concentration.

Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration.

Guest (1): You see, two, two things... You can't...

Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately.

Guest (1): But you can't read or talk to someone.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught... In our educational system they chant... What is that? That...? (Hindi) Pahara pahara.(?)

Indian man: Pahara. Alphabet. A.I.E.

Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing they learn. "A,B,C," like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." We did it in our childhood. One boy will chant like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." And we shall repeat. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." So repeating three times, I understand 2 plus 2 equal to 4.

Guest (1): Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?

Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not?

Guest (1): It goes deeper and deeper?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart. If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names go to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart.

Guest (1): I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer...

Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. It will always remain in your heart.

Guest (1): Always going on.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. It remains in the heart. Not only my heart. Others' heart, they also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me. We... Last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka, they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain.

Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all.

Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a, almost like japa beads. Show him.

Guest (1): You see, here.

Revatīnandana: They're almost like japa mālā.

Guest (1): We do it in some, together, in the orthodox church. And we take turns doing two hundred.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Guest (1): And... These are for counting.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording?

Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."

Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God..."

Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us."

Guest (1): It's a little prayer.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Guest (1): And they also pray to the mother of God.

Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful?" You say, "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like?

Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer.

Guest (1): And you say it in your own language.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good.

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the, by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God?

Guest (1): The mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of... So... That is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped, that "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. "You are the most munificent of all incarnations because You are distributing love of God." Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne. "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer.

Guest (1): Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name, and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent.

Guest (1): What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different.

Guest (1): Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed?

Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing?

Haṁsadūta: While chanting.

Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing?

Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is, that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect.

Guest (1): It's very difficult to think of God.

Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛòha-vratāḥ

One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible.

Guest (1): There's a lot more ...sins than just those four things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities.

Guest (1): If you're irritated with somebody.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin.

Prabhupāda: No, that is...

Guest (1): Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin.

Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?

Guest (1): Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian...

Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?

Haṁsadūta: Animal.

Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son?

Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing.

Prabhupāda: (people coming in) Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come... You can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years; there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the... in Bhagavad-gītā. (people sitting down) Why? You can come here, this side.

Haṁsadūta: You can sit here.

Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. Devil citing scripture. A devīl cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that "Don't hear scriptures from the devīl." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam." If a devīl's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say, "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devīl or angel. It doesn't matter." No. The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot bring the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devīl. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so-called preaching. That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all conditions, if we, with faith and love we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified.

                                                                                                                                                                        338331

Guest (1): What about pleasures like listening to music?

Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God.

Guest (1): Could you listen to other peoples' music?

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. Chanting and hearing about God, that is music.

Guest (1): Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that?

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. He means classical Western music. They make some music.

Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection.

Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it.

Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject.

Guest (1): Inspired by God, given by God.

Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property. But do you like to go to the prisonhouse? We say everything belongs to government. We are not so liberal, that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prisonhouse."

 

Room Conversation                                    August 15, 1971, London                                                            338392

Prabhupāda: Simply we shall sell retail in our saìkīrtana. Let them sell to the bookstore. We shall not sell a single copy to the bookstore, or wholesaler. We shall simply sell in our saìkīrtana party. In this way arrange...(break)

Śyāmasundara: ...weekend festivals from town to town?

Prabhupāda: Town to town. What do you think this idea Huh? Continue engagement. And as many men may join us, we can accomodate them. Every country. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. I got this idea, one king, (indistinct), the grandson of Prthuraya, this Mahārāja Prithu, he performed so many yajïas that on the surface of the earth, there were only kuśa grass scattered. Yajïa, they require kuśa grass. Kuśa grass. So all over the world it was simply scattered, after yajïas, I have given my comment in this. Similarly, we shall perform this saìkīrtana yajïa all over the world, town to town, town to town. Now we have got GBC all over the world. Let them organize. What they'll do? Organize yajïa after yajïa, yajïa after yajïa. So that as at the present moment even if we go somewhere, are known to: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" They say. The whole world will say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Either jokingly or serious, it doesn't matter. Let them joke, criticize them, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," still they will have the effect. Still they will have it. In the Nṛsiṁha Purāṇa there is an instance that a Mussulman was attacked by, what is called? Boar having...

Parivrājakācārya: Tiger? Boar. A wild boar.

Prabhupāda: A wild boar. So when the boar attacked him the Musselmans, when they do not like they say, "Haram. Haram." Condemn means haram. So when the boar attacked him he said haram. "Haram!" But it acted, ha rāma, and he got salvation. Do you follow what I say? A Mussulman said, 'ha ram. Ha ram He condemned. It is abominable. That is the meaning of Urdu, haram. But at the time of death, when the boar attacked him, he said, "Haram." So it acted ha rāma. Ha, he rāma. It acted, chanting the name of Rāma, Hare Rāma. He meant something else, but it acted as beneficial as chanting He rāma. So therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, either you chant seriously, or those who are criticizing us, jokingly, the effect will be same. So anyway let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you follow? Even they do not take it seriously, if they imitate, joke, still they'll be benefited .

Parivrājakācārya: Should these be straight saìkīrtana, no... Should these be...

Prabhupāda: Well, they... As we install our Deity and chanting, dancing, offering ārati. This interests.

Parivrājakācārya: Not electric guitars and all that.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Parivrājakācārya: Good. Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Electric guitar, if it is, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa only, nothing else, then it is all right. But as far as possible, simply mṛdaìga and kartāl. But if GBC thinks that it attracts more people so they give contribution, that is a different thing. Otherwise there is no need.

Parivrājakācārya: I think nothing can attract like mṛdaìgas and karatālas.

Prabhupāda: That is practical, we have seen.

Parivrājakācārya: When we put guitars, it waters it down. It doesn't have the same effect.

Prabhupāda: All GBC members should organize like that. Then everything will be all right. And sell books. Now you... What is the name? Maṇòalībhadra, he is slow. So you translate.

Haṁsadūta: Okay. Because there are others, they are competent. I have others, they are competent.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Simply you check that they are not writing nonsense.

Haṁsadūta: Oh yes. That I can do.

Prabhupāda: That's all. And print it and distribute. And another thing. If you can print yourself, it is all right, But if you want printing cost from the general book fund, then whatever you sell you deposit there. You deposit and take, deposit and take, deposit and take. Then when, even if you have no money you'll get money. And then you deposit. But if you spend it, then you cannot expect from the general book fund.

Haṁsadūta: No, no. I'm already doing that with them.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Haṁsadūta: Whatever they print for me, or whatever Bali prints for me, I pay him and I pay 100% mark-up so that there can be some money.

Prabhupāda: So in this way organize and distribute literature, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa saìkīrtana yajïa. Then our mission will be successful. Accha, here, they are coming, so we shall make a committee, London building fund committee. In that committee, Mr. Arnold and his wife... (break) ...nicely and organize responsibly. So that can be done provided they have got their own men. Why he's not training the Africans? He should train.

Parivrājakācārya: He hasn't got very many Africans. I think only about two.

Prabhupāda: Then suspend that installation.

Parivrājakācārya: They haven't been making any devotees there.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no... (break) ...and if we conquer our eating then we can conquer our sleeping also. Nidrāhāra vihārakādi vijitau. (break) Don't make fuss. If you are serious, then it is all right. Otherwise, you are young men. If you again give up sannyāsa or you try to marry, it will be scandalous for our society. Don't do that. If you are steady... But so far report is you are not very steady. Do you admit this or not?

Kulaśekhara: Yes. Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then how you can take sannyāsa? It is a very great responsibility. (break) There is no need of taking sannyāsa. If you are sincere in preaching you can do in this dress. Where is the harm? Simply by changing, taking a rod, you'll not become God immediately. You have to work, steadily. What is there in sannyāsa? Do you mean to say taking a rod one becomes sannyāsa? Sannyāsa means you must be sacrificing everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī. Sa sannyāsī, he's sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti. You went to Israel but again came back. Why? What was the difficulty?

Kulaśekhara: Well, there's no activity there Prabhupāda. I got attacked on the street. I got very sick and I was attacked on the street when I was on saìkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Do you like to go to Africa? It is warm country.

Kulaśekhara: Yes Prabhupāda. That would be nice.

Prabhupāda: So you can go. You can go. And you know Deity... (break) ...and if it is sufficiently left, then she doesn't require further. Otherwise add something. But she'll take after the husband. My mother was doing. Yes. The remnants of foodstuff left by the husband will be taken by the wife. That means if the husband does not eat, she'll not eat. So those things are now dream only. (laughs) Impossible. Just like small child, If he follows the father, catching the hand of the father, she is always safe, he is always safe. Now your so-called independence has spoiled the social life. You know he was married. Where she is now?

Kulaśekhara: Oh, she left. We haven't seen her since she left. I don't know where she is. Three years ago. When she left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, she took some drugs and...

Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.

Śyāmasundara: Materialistic life is so bothersome. All the time some trouble.

Prabhupāda: Just like in hog civilization. That's all. They are thinking that "We are very happy eating stool." But others know that what kind of happiness he is enjoying. Similarly these rascal karmis, materialists, they are thinking by... What is called? Kini...What is called? Naked skirt?

Devotees: Miniskirt?

Prabhupāda: Miniskirt, trying to show the private part and people will be attracted and she will be happy. This is regular prostitution. Regular prostitution. Still they are not getting husband. Even they walk naked... That will come. Say after fifty years it will come like that.

Śyāmasundara:They are starting already some places, walking naked.

Prabhupāda: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious.

Parivrājakācārya: But they don't want to have any children.

Prabhupāda: That is next program. Why not? Now we are having our wives, so many children. Los Angeles full of children. So natural way should be accepted. They require husband. The law is, "No. You cannot have more, you cannot marry one wife." The girls have become prostitute. That's all right. "The girls are becoming prostitute. That's all right. But you cannot marry more than one." What is this?

Śyāmasundara: They have contraceptive pills even for young children.

Kulaśekhara: One barrister, one of the top judges in England, a top man, top doctor, he said children should have sex life at fourteen. He said this in the newspaper two days ago. He said children at fourteen should be allowed to have sex life. He said this should be made legal. He's a top doctor or judge.

Prabhupāda: Children?

Śyāmasundara: Children should be allowed to have sex life at fourteen years old.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is psychological. They develop... Sex life, sex urge is there as soon as twelve years, thirteen years old, especially women. So therefore early marriage was sanctioned in India. Early marriage. Boy fifteen years, sixteen years, and girl twelve years. Not twelve years, ten years. I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system.

Śyāmasundara: So they are not spoiled.

Prabhupāda: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there.

Śyāmasundara: And the Russians and the Chinese, they are training to take over. They are marching, practicing war.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: In Russia we noticed every day they're practicing for war, young people, marching.

Prabhupāda: Mechanical.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. In China too, marching, ready to take over.

Kulaśekhara: When we were in New York, one boy...

Prabhupāda: No, there will be fight. That is the prediction of great politician. There will be war between these Communist and anti-Communist. There are two parties now. The anti-Communist will be defeated. The Communists will come out victorious.

Śyāmasundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight.

Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And if people follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa--māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.

Prabhupāda: Where is that?

Śyāmasundara: Just down the street.

Prabhupāda: He takes them.

Śyāmasundara: I don't know. I guess he does. He's gone all day. Every day he's gone. He says it's too disturbing to work here, too crowded.

Prabhupāda: That may be.

Śyāmasundara: I think he's doing it by longhand, writing it out because he doesn't take a typewriter.

Prabhupāda: So make arrangement, whatever thoughts are coming I am giving you. Ārati is finished?

Śyāmasundara: In about two or three minutes. Five. You'll hear a conchshell.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere this class must be there, morning evening class. Either it is festival or temple. If you go on simply festival, you don't require to start many centers.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Starting more centers is not necessary.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: We have the big cities covered. If people want to go and join us they can go to the big city and join.

Prabhupāda: Because opening center means so much responsibility.

Śyāmasundara: So much. Land...

Prabhupāda: So better open. Deity will be there. Just like Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is doing. Install the deity for one week. You know everything. You have done in Calcutta, Bombay and other. Same thing. You were in Allahabad also?

Devotee: Yes, I was there.

Prabhupāda: Allahabad, Gorakhpur. So same thing. And for persons spiritually inclined, for them this traveling is very good. Traveling means with this occupation. It is very good. You'll be more popular and there will be no difficulty, mind will be steady.

Śyāmasundara: It takes away our attachment for everything materially.

Prabhupāda: The Gosvāmīs, they did not stay underneath a tree for more than one night. So you decide; then you do the needful.

First of all, realize, then challenge.

So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included.

 

So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

 

So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam …that is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuïja-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā. That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī. All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this."

 

No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon.

 

So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? …first behave yourself perfectly; then teach others to become perfect.

 

And we hope one day some of our men will become President.

You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First realise, then challenge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THREE

Room Conversation                                     August 25, 1971, London                                                           338957

Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge. (break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of frustration because the so-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. And therefore people become, revolted: "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāïjā. You have been Rādhā-Dāmodara temple? You have seen that Gosāi?

Śyāmasundara: Is he still there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet sudarācāraḥ. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. (break) ...should think that we have got to say so many things to the people. Huh? About this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute.

Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them.

Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included.

Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. That is Indian śaìkha? That in your hand, bangle, white bangle.

Woman: Ah, elephant?

Prabhupāda: It is called śaìkha. From conchshell, it is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it?

Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory.

Prabhupāda: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell.

Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to...

Prabhupāda: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. A woman... that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śaìkha-sari. A woman dressed śaìkha and sari, śaìkha-sari. They don't require any other ornament. One nice sari and śaìkha. That is Indian conception of woman having husband. That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sari. All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha-gamana. Satī. Yes. (break) ...have got enough to preach. People will like it.

Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough.

Prabhupāda: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning. Provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam... Just like my Guru Mahārāja explained the first śloka for three months in Dacca. (break) ...after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained ātmārāma-śloka in sixty-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Sixty-four ways. Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory.

Revatīnandana: It's nice because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen. They're so degraded. (end)                                           

 

 

February 27, 1972 (contd. on February 28, 1972 and February 29, 1972), Māyāpura                                 340841

Bob: I've asked devotees about how they feel towards sex in their relations, and I under..., I see their way they feel, but I can't see myself acting the same way. See, I'll be getting married in this end of this summer.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bob: I'll be getting married the end of this summer, in September or August, when I return to America. And the devotees say that the householders only have sex to conceive a child. And I cannot picture myself at all in such a position, and... What kind of sex life can one lead, living in the material world?

Prabhupāda: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from this material bondage. And there are different attachments for this material enjoyment, out of which sex life is the source of topmost enjoyment. The Bhāgavata says that this material world... Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. Means that a man is attached to woman and woman is attached to man. Not only human society, in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking the association of a woman. Just like we see the, all the fictions, novels, dramas, this cinema, or even ordinary advertisement, simply they depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in tailor's shop you'll find on the window some woman, some man. (break) So this attachment is already there.

Bob: The attachment between man and woman.

Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause--a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that

puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ

tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ

ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair

janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti

It is said that this is the basic principle of material life: attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and a woman is united, that attachment becomes increased. And that increased attachment will induce him for gṛha, means home; kṣetra, means land; suta, means children; āpta, friendship, or society; and vitta, vitta means money. In this way, gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ, he becomes entangled. Janasya moho 'yam. This is the illusion. And by this illusion he becomes ahaṁ mameti, "I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body, that is mine."

Bob: What is that again?

Prabhupāda: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means "I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," this bodily... "This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society." So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life's lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that "If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side..." So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Kṛṣṇa became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajïā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase, that "You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil.

Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Reduce it, just like a boy is trained up as a student up to twenty-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmacārī. So, some of the boys they remain naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. He, because he's given education, so if he becomes fully conversant he doesn't like to marry. But one who has not such restraint, he's allowed to marry. That is also restricted, that he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in the human society there is marriage, not in the animal society. But we are reducing human society gradually to animal society. We are forgetting marriage. That is also written in the śāstras. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. In the Kali-yuga there will be no marriage performances, but the boy and the girl, they'll simply agree to live together. Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetuḥ. And their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So on this philosophy... There are many western philosophers like Freud and others. They have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are not interested. We are interested only for begetting children. That's all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already psychology, pravṛtti, natural. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he'll be sexually inclined. There is no need of philosophizing sex life. Nobody is taught sex life in the school and the colleges, but everyone knows it, how to do it. (laughs) So pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education. (pause)

Bob: That, for today, is a radical concept, for nowadays.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bob: Presently, in America that's a radical concept.

Prabhupāda: Well, in America there are so many things which requires thorough reformation. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. When I went to your country, so I saw these boys and girls, they're living like friends. I said that "You cannot live as friends; you must get yourself married."

Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred. So they find no desire to... Because people get married, and if things are not proper they get divorced so very easy...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that also.

Bob: ...that some people feel to get married is not meaningful.

Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that, but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that, "Watch...?"

Śyāmasundara: Christian..."Watchtower?"

Prabhupāda: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this."

Śyāmasundara: You use that example of the cow and the market?

Prabhupāda: Yes, when the milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? (laughter) It is a very abominable condition. In the western countries I have seen. Here also, in India, gradually it is coming to be so. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break) ...movement is especially meant for making human life, reaching the real goal.

Bob: The real goal?

Prabhupāda: The real goal of life.

Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life.

mām upetya tu kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

That is the version of Bhagavad-gītā. "If anyone comes back to Me," mām upetya kaunteya... Mām upetya tu kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti, "he does not come back again." Where? In this place, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but he has become fooled, befooled by so-called leaders. This is miserable life, material life. So duḥkhālayam... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that this place is duḥkhālayam, it is a place of miseries. And that also aśāśvatam. You cannot make a compromise, "All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain as American or Indian." No. That you also cannot do. You cannot remain as American. You may think that you are born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot remain as American for long. You'll have to be kicked out of the place, and next life you do not know. Therefore it is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. That is our philosophy.

Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable.

Prabhupāda: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul?

Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, imperfect science.

Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know.

                                                                                                                                                                        341302

Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality in that...

Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya. Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have, thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Sometimes we fast, that does mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast.

Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual ...

Prabhupāda: Yes, in full.

Bob: ...taste for different things?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says, "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe.

Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take.

Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take?

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you... Just like, what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the lawbooks. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the śāstra. You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. He says definitely. Positively He says, that "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam. Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuïja-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā. That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī. All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this."

Bob: There is, some prasādam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasāda's are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat.

Prabhupāda: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination that means you have not appreciated what is prasāda. (pause)

Devotee: What if there is someone... This... (Static)... likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasādam...

Prabhupāda: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right.

Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasādam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is...

Prabhupāda: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything.

Devotee: But the devotion is not there. Like in India...

Prabhupāda: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it.

Devotee: In India, somebody said...

Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not... Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion. That out of... Bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam, real thing is devotion. Not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world. But He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam. "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love," that is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand... Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a non-devotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion. That's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. He's on the mental plane. So he has no good qualification. (break) The time?

Śyāmasundara: Six o'clock. Twenty more minutes, twenty minutes. (break)

Prabhupāda: It is... Question and Answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the...

Bob: I still have question on the prasāda.

Prabhupāda: Sūta Gosvāmī says, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maìgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-maìgalam, either by the question or by the answer.

munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ

bhavadbhir loka-maìgalam

yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno

yenātmā suprasīdati

(break)

Bob: I still have..., do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the prasādam. But if you like I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam is always prasādam. So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasādam.

Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is also due to ... not appreciate. But Kṛṣṇa should be... The cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasādam, even if it is spicy. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison and he drank it nectarine. So for the devotee even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. (break) ...she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side; he takes only the good side. (break) He wanted to make business with my Guru Mahārāja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that "He has come forward to give me some service. So whatever he wanted he gave him."

Bob: Business with you, what was that? Business with who?

Prabhupāda: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mahārāja.

Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) ...question on prasādam, if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything?

Bob: Oh-h.

Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) ...point?

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee, I have got discrimination, why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate or digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are... A devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baòa catura. So a devotee knows his position and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. (break) ...it is posted? The... Specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajïa. Yajïa means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said... So shall I stop this fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb.

Bob: I have a sweater here if you like.

Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajïas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajïa is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma. Bad karma, you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma. So... (microphone noise) ...some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma. You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that?

Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle.

Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some... (break)

Bob: ...who is not very aware of God, but...

Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal.

Bob: What about the people in the...the innocent people?

Prabhupāda: The animal is very innocent. You cut its throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just... To become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baòa catura. So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent.

Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is?

Prabhupāda: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation, he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is... The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent.

Bob: What about a person who does, tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught. But he stays honest anyway, a person like that. Is that some kind of good karma?

Prabhupāda: Yes, to become honest is also good karma. How to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Daivī sampad and asurī sampad. These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if you become qualified with the daivī sampad, then daivī sampad vimokṣāya, then you'll be liberated. And nibandhāyāsurī matā. And if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant.

                                                                                                                                                                        341391

Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper. Hundred rupees, it is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two-paise lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Bob: And then he may not go to hell.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajïāta-sukṛti. Ajïāta-sukṛti means doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to act very piously without his knowledge. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad-vicalanaṁ nèṇāṁ gṛhīṇāṁ dīna-cetasām. Dīna-cetasām. They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons work(?) just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's study.

Bob: That is what?

Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing from anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                        341408

Prabhupāda: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing.

Bob: Is he less of a thief?

Prabhupāda: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal?

Bob: But, maybe it isn't... If I know it is yours and I take it I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it.

Prabhupāda: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody.

Bob: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: How do you take it without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it." Is it not stealing?

Bob: It is stealing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting... Suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property?

Bob: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs you are a thief. So you think, "I'm honest." But factually you are thief. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. You must remember Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities. "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa-deva mūrti. This is honesty. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber, these qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is not dogmatism, this is fact. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break) ...you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty?

Bob: In a way, in a way.

Prabhupāda: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there another way? Girirāja?

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: Is there any alternative? To defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?"

Bob: Now...I have none.

Prabhupāda: In London, we had, how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conway Hall?

Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Conway Hall.

Prabhupāda: Conway Hall, yes.

Gurudāsa: Twelve days.

Prabhupāda: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?"

Bob: Did you get many questions?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter)

Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish?

Prabhupāda: Foolish means who has no knowledge.

Bob: No knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is foolish. Is it not foolish?

Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes.

Indian man: Prabhupāda, I have one personal question, can I ask?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week. It was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (Chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness.

Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask...

Prabhupāda: Asking, before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making society.

Bob: Maybe this is...

Prabhupāda: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard.

Śyāmasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their philosophy is that the animal, when it is not properly nourished that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Like that, theory. Is it not?

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much..." That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They eat them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh?

Païcadraviòa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed.

Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that "Instead of suffering, just kill him."

Girirāja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things; therefore you are sinful. Is it not?

Girirāja: Yes. (pause) But there are some things we're instructed to do...

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which even though we try to do we cannot do perfectly yet.

Prabhupāda: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is?

Girirāja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to...

Prabhupāda: That is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhāgavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. By, due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit, habit is second nature, he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that, that "I have done this." And should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the māyā is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that "I am a devotee, I am chanting. Therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified." That is the greatest offense. (end)

 

Conversation with Author                              April 1, 1972, Sydney                                                              341487

(break) ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign. Why such a big country, American country, why they should import? But they are obliged to import. They have no workers. Japan's 75% business is done in America. We are not impractical. Because there are so many workers, but they refuse... In Central Park, it is full of rubbish things always. You go. It is a garbage. Why? There is no worker. And on the other side we see so many young men. They are not working, simply idling time. So they do not tackle the real problem. The future is not very hopeful if things go on like this. So many young boys, they are doing nothing. What is the percentage of hippies now in America? A very good percent. All the school colleges. Here also in the university...

Devotee: All the university students.

Prabhupāda: They are all hippies. So what do we expect? They are taking education, and then, after taking education, they don't do anything. This is a problem. And so many illicit children, and the government has to suppy them food, and the welfare, what is called? That welfare department?

Devotee: Social security, welfare.

Prabhupāda: Security. No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon. So you study from that point of view and prepare your journal. Therefore I am talking so many things. This is good material for your writing, practical.

Author: Sir, when somebody joins your movement, when they first come to see your movement, what presents itself to them--men with shaven heads and saffron-colored robes who dance in the street and who sing songs, strange songs--these are strange aspects. And in themselves they are not especially significant to an understanding of the philosophy, are they?

Prabhupāda: No, this is... This chanting and dancing is for mass of people, but when you want to discuss philosophy, we have got volumes of books. Yes. Both things we have got. We are attracting both the intelligent class of men and the mass of people, even the children.

Author: Now, sir, I think you agree that when... If you agree that this is the first thing that people generally see of your movement, then surely, if I am to write a book in which I am to describe the movement, it is necessary for me to describe some of the...

Prabhupāda: But if he is actually, anyone wants to see, so he should see our books also, magazines also. Why does he not see? We, our, send our boys in the streets with books. If you are not liking this saffron dress and dancing, why don't you read the books?

Author: No. I don't think you take my point. What I am saying is that... Let us imagine that the reader who picks up the book, this book that I am going to write, I hope, is very much like a person who sees the devotees dancing in the street, because he is seeing something for the first time. Now, it's necessary, surely, to describe the external and superficial features.

Prabhupāda: It is not superficial. This dancing is spiritual ecstasy. Otherwise it is not a dog's dance. You see? Any gentleman, if I ask you, "Please dance on this footpath," will you agree? It is not that dancing. You don't compare with that dancing. It is not dog's dance. They chant, they feel, they dance. That is another thing. You try to understand it. If they are coming from respectable families... Now, here is a boy. He is a professor. So if I ask him, "Please go and dance on the footpath," will he agree? A professor will agree? But when a professor dances, there is something. You should understand.

Author: Sir, I'm not saying that the dancing is meaningless. I was saying that when one sees people dancing, that doesn't mean anything.

Prabhupāda: That does not mean to you.

Author: That's what I mean.

Prabhupāda: But it means to them.

Author: Yes. No. I'm not saying that it's meaningless. I'm saying that it appears to be meaningless in the same way that one should wonder why he has his head shaven and why he wears those clothes. If one doesn't understand, these things are...

Prabhupāda: At least, they can take by shaving head means it cleans, cleanses. The head is not overburdened with unnecessary... (laughter) We want clear brain, and that is the system, Vedic system. All learned scholars, they cleanse head. Cleanse head. Yes. And at least we get relief. A little hair growing is also burdensome. We cleanse. So it is personal convenience. So that is not the point of preaching.

Author: No. But, sir, I see... I don't... I think it would be very difficult to explain the meaning of having a bald head, and by saying somebody's got a bald head, the reason for this is, there seems to be some cleanliness and so on, and to explain why people wear clothes like this. It's impossible surely to explain the reasons for these things without describing them in the first place.

Prabhupāda: Explain... Any group of men, they have got a particular type of dress, the military dress, the police dress. So people can understand that "Here is a police." Similarly, by this dress they will chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" immediately. That is our experience. As soon as they will see these people, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and if they will criticize our, anything, we want that people see us and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That we want. Simply by seeing us they will remember Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is great advancement. Indirectly that is our propaganda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation                                       April 7, 1972, Melbourne                                                         341694

Impersonalist: Can Kṛṣṇa be called by any other name?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means... Kṛṣṇa's name is given according to His office. Just like a person at home, he is "father," and in the court he is "my lord," the same man. Same man, high court judge, his wife is calling him by name, "John." His son is calling the same man, "father." His brother is calling the same man, "brother." And the same man, when he goes to the court, he is called "my lord." So these names are in connection with his service. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So He can have many millions of names. Because He is unlimited, He has got unlimited business also. So He can be called according to that name, according to that business. But this name, Kṛṣṇa, is the best because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive.

Impersonalist: Means?

Prabhupāda: All-attractive. Just like the same man; he is attracting his son; he is attracting his wife; he is attracting his servant; he is attracting in the court his client. So many ways he is attracting. Therefore somebody is calling him "father," somebody "husband," somebody this, somebody this. So if there is one name, that is Kṛṣṇa, "All-attractive." He attracts all. This is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And if God is not all-attractive, then how He can be God?

Impersonalist: What is the meaning of Rāma?

Prabhupāda: Rāma. Rāma is enjoyer. Ramante yogino 'nante. Yogīs, they want eternal enjoyment. Here in this material world you can enjoy something for some few minutes or few hours, but if you want eternal enjoyment, ramaṇa, then Rāma, that is Rāma. (break) Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Neither by reading so many books because each book is written in a different way. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. If you consult philosophers, then everyone will give you a different opinion.

Impersonalist: They could be saying the same thing, even though they are saying different things.

Prabhupāda: Maybe same thing, but you will be puzzled by the different opinion. Therefore you have to take the path of great personalities. So we are following Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya chanted this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are following, and we are getting result. That's all. We don't manufacture our own way because we are imperfect. We cannot manufacture. That will not be beneficial.

Impersonalist: Why is it that this mahāmantra is so attractive to Western countries and not particularly...

Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it--fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the śāstra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bhāgavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Five thousand years this prediction is there: "In this Kali-yuga people will keep long hair, and..., because that will be appreciated, that a man keeping long hair is very beautiful." So that is happening. Just see. Five thousand years ago, that was written, and that is happening. There are so many things. That is called śāstra. It is truth for all the days--past, present, future. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. These things are stated. "Husband and wife will keep together so long their sex power is strong. Otherwise they will divorce." This is written. Svīkāram eva hi udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." According to Vedic system, marriage is a long program. The father of the girl and the boy first of all select. Then their horoscope should be consulted, how they will mix together, and then the family, then personal qualification, so many things... Then dowry... After all this consideration, when everything is satisfactory, then the father and mother of both sides will agree, and they will be married. That is marriage. Now, at the present moment in Kali-yuga, it is said, svīkāram eva hy udvahe. Boys and girls will loiter in the street and two of them, as they agree, "Yes, we will live together." That's all. Bas. This is stated. And that is happening. So this is called śāstra. Five thousand years ago, what was predicted, that is now happening. Therefore we give so much stress on the śāstra that it is perfect. There is no mistake. If you write one book, I write one book, because we are imperfect, it is all imperfect.

Impersonalist: What about Buddha? Would you say that he is good?

Śyāmasundara: Buddha, Lord Buddha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. About Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the śāstra that Lord Buddha will appear in Gayā Pradesh, in the province of Gayā, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how he is cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don't believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that "Yes, there is no God. You hear me." But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don't believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, "We don't believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha." And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dviṣām. Sammohita-sura-dviṣām. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahiṁsā. "Don't kill." That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that "Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities." Lord Buddha appeared... He also appeared in India. Why? He was also Hindu. He was kṣatriya, king. He promulgamated this philosophy, ahiṁsā, when there was unnecessary killing of animals. According to Vedas, animal can be killed in sacrifice. That also to give a new life. But people misinterpreted and they began to kill animals like anything with the evidence of..., "In the Vedas animal killing is sanctioned." So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion--ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy. Therefore Buddha philosophy has gone outside India--China, Burma, Japan--because here in India they are very strong in the standing of Vedas. Śaìkarācārya established that "This Buddha philosophy is non-Vedic. It cannot be accepted." That was Śaìkarācārya's propaganda. So by the propaganda of Śaìkarācārya the Buddhism were driven away. There are so many things that one has to study. So Lord Buddha, we accept him as the incarnation of God. And his name is mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. And his business is also mentioned: sammohitaṁ sura-dviṣām. His business is to cheat the atheist class of men. That cheating is not cheating. It is for the good. Just like the father sometimes cheats the small child. You see? So that does not mean father is cheater. "Well, he has got some business to do that. That's all." So when I say Lord Buddha cheated, we don't mean that Lord Buddha was a cheater like ordinary man. No. He had to accept some means to lead them to God worship. He is God. So all the Buddhists... I have seen in Japan. Their temple is as good as Hindu temple. They have got Lord Buddha's statue. They offer lamps, and they sit down. They read Buddha philosophy. It is exactly Hindu temple.

Impersonalist: And what is predicted for this age?

Prabhupāda: This side is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra--not only this side, all over the world. That is prediction of Lord Caitanya: "In every village, every town of the world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra will be chanted." That is the beginning.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                      April 22, 1972, Japan                                                            341933

Cintāmaṇi: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa wears tilaka like we do? Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhārāṇī only red spot.

Sudāmā: We have some...

Prabhupāda: Any other questions?

Sudāmā: Yes.

Bhānu: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Since we are going to have three altars, then we should also have three different plates, a different plate for each altar?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is already known to you. Bhānu knows very well. You have seen in Los Angeles. Why three plates? If you can spare more plates for each, that will be nice. Just like one for Rādhā and for Kṛṣṇa, one for Jagannātha, one for Balarāma, one for Subhadrā, one for guru, one for Gaurāìga, Païca-tattva, five. If you can increase, you can manage, that is nice. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient. If you cannot spare. If you can spare, you can increase as many plates as you can. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient.

Devotee: On ekādaśī, we can offer the Deity grains?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. But not guru. Ekādaśī observed by jīva-tattva, not by Viṣṇu-tattva. We are fasting for clearing our material disease, but Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also may not be offered grains because He is playing the part of a devotee. Only Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha can be offered grains. Otherwise, Guru-Gaurāìga, no. And the prasādam should not be taken by anyone. It should be kept for next day. What is that?

Cintāmaṇi: I tried to make a flute for Kṛṣṇa because He doesn't have a flute. Is that okay?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: We will order one flute from India.

Prabhupāda: Why India? You can get it here. Any goldsmith can do.

Bhānu: In the morning the Deity should be woken up not before five? The Deities should be woken up at five in the morning? Some temples it is 4:30, some temples five.

Prabhupāda: Just one and a half hours before sunrise. If the sunrise varies, then the waking time also should vary.

Sudāmā: So according to season, we should...

Prabhupāda: The rule is that one and a half hours before sunrise. So that you have to make, when the sunrise, then just one and a half hour before, maìgala-ārati.

Sudāmā: So that's when the ārati begins, when the curtains are opened and we start offering.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Sudāmā: One and a half hours before sunrise is when the ārati begins. Then you wake them up before.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just waking, ārati begins. And you can offer something.

Bhānu: We should offer the plate after the ārati?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: After.

Devotee: Is it all right for the Deities' hair to show?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Sometimes, at some temples, the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities, sometimes Their hair shows.

Prabhupāda: Shows?

Devotee: Yes. Like Rādhārāṇī's hair is down in front. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. That is for beauty, as it is possible. Better keep it that side. Just like Rādhārāṇī's hair... There is picture. That gopīs, they have got their hair that side. Rādhārāṇī is also one of the gopīs, but she is the dearmost gopī. That's all. Otherwise, she is also gopī. Then? What else?

Sudāmā: Bhānu had a question about something.

Bhānu: Does evening ārati vary according to the sunset? Or it is just...

Prabhupāda: No. Sunset.

                                                                                                                                                                        341973

(break) People should be called.

Sudāmā: So we should take the Deity prasādam and our prasādam and go to all the houses?

Prabhupāda: No no. You invite them, that "Anyone, you are welcome. Take prasādam." We can announce. Then you can judge how many people are coming daily. You should announce that "Anyone can come and take prasādam at noon." It is the duty of a gṛhastha to loudly cry, "If anyone is hungry, please come. We have got still food." That is the duty of a gṛhastha. If one does not come, then the chief of the house, he takes prasāda. If somebody says, "I am hungry," so he should offer his own food. "You eat." This is duty of gṛhastha. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanti. Those who are cooking for themselves, they are simply eating sinful things. That's all. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. So hospitality is one of the duties of the householder. Atithi. Atithi means guest without any information. That is called atithi. Tithi means date. So if I go to your house, I inform you that "Such and such date I am coming there." But atithi, he does not inform you, all of a sudden comes. So you should have to receive him. That is called atithi. Pāntha. People are moving... Formerly, if some of the walkers in the street, suppose he has become hungry, so he enters anyone's house. So "I am hungry sir. Give me something to eat." He'll immediately, "Take." Pāntha-bhāga. There is a stock of foodstuff which is called pāntha-bhāga. If somebody comes all of a sudden, he should take.

Pradyumna: The temple should always have some prasādam there?

Prabhupāda: Temple must have. Even ordinary gṛhastha. That is Vedic civilization, not that we cook for ourself, for my husband, for my wife and children, eat it sumptuously and go to bed. No. Even gṛhastha, he should be always prepared to receive guest. Yes. And even a guest comes, your enemy, you should receive him in such a nice way that he will forget that you are all enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Vedic civilization, not that "Beware of dog. Please don't enter here. You are forbidden to come here. And if you come, I shall shoot you." Sometimes they do that. This is not human civilization. It is cats' and dogs' civilization. So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? If I am like cats and dogs, I cannot criticize others as cats and dogs. I must be first of all human being. Then I shall teach others how to become human being. I must become first of all devotee. Then I shall request others to become devotee. Āpani ācari jīve śikhāilā bhakti. First behave yourself perfectly; then teach others to become perfect. That is preacher. Now we are selling The Process of Creation but if I do not know what is the process of creation, we do not read, if you go to sell some book, then if he says, "What is the process of creation? You explain," and if you say, "All right, let me consult my book..." Kuto gata vedyaḥ para-hasta-gataṁ dhānam. Para-hasta-gataṁ dhānam means, "I have got enough wealth." "Where it is?" "It is in other hands. It is not in my possession, in others' possession." This kind of possessing wealth has no value. Similarly, when somebody asks you some question, if you say, "Let me consult my book," that knowledge has no value. "Let me consult my book." So all these books are there. You see one śloka studying, knowing. It takes one hour. So there are millions of ślokas. How much you have to study. So these things are to be noted. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means perfection, all round perfection. Then people will much appreciate. There is no doubt about it. And we can go anywhere, everywhere, because we are pure. We are giving the right thing. So is there any artist here who can draw? You can?

Room Conversation                                      June 29, 1972, San Diego                                                          342536

Prabhupāda: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body--already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yethā deoyā bhange, kapāla yābe saìge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bhāratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

To do good to others, para-upakāra. So those Indians who are here, it is all right you are earning for some economic development, but at the same time, you try to make your life perfect by Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it to the foreigners as far as possible. That's your duty, not that, that you are getting decent salary than India, and enjoy life and forget your culture. That is suicidal. You have got a culture... So this culture is Vedic culture and Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa conscious. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ. Vedic culture means to understand Kṛṣṇa. One who has not understood Kṛṣṇa, he has no Vedic culture. But every Indian is supposed to have Vedic culture. And to have Vedic culture means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all Indians, they should cultivate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness personally, make their life successful, and distribute it to the, our neighbors. Of course, I do not think... If you invite your neighbors, they do not come, you said?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Obviously, they have got some other work, this, that.

Prabhupāda: Hm. But anyway, because you are living in this country, you must have some friends. Whenever you talk with your friends, you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste your time in other ways. That will be beneficial for you and for your friends. And before talking about Kṛṣṇa, you should know about Kṛṣṇa. And you can know about Kṛṣṇa very easily by understanding Bhagavad-gītā. So read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. Try to understand it and you can distribute it. That is a great service to Kṛṣṇa, to your personal self, and to the person you are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. And four principles of impious life, as it is accepted by our Vedic followers, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That will give you strength and over and above that, if you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... You can chant. It is not difficult. There is no loss. You can chant. That will give you spiritual strength. And in this way try to become spiritually powerful and serve Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter. Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. He is the proprietor everywhere. So if you be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so wherever you may be, you'll be with Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you remain with Kṛṣṇa, you are not living within this material world. You are living in the spiritual world. So, especially I request Indians, as it is ordered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra: "Anyone who has taken birth on the holy land of Bhāratavarṣa, India," janma sārthaka kari, "just make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and preach it." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. So if you take it you'll be happy, your neighbors will be happy, the world will be happy. And Kṛṣṇa-kathā means to present Kṛṣṇa as He is. Don't misinterpret by us..., just like some rascals do. Even a great scholar known all over the world practically in scholarly circle, he has practically vilified Kṛṣṇa by his so-called scholarship. Now he's suffering. He has lost himself, we have practically seen. So that is a great offense, to vilify saintly persons or God. That's great offense. So read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, present it as it is. Then your life is successful. Now, if you have got any question we can discuss.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, the four principles you were telling about, are they for purposes of just other-worldliness or is it for material gains in this world or what?

Prabhupāda: No. We belong to the other world actually. We spirit soul, we belong to the spiritual world. Just like fish belongs to the water. Fish does not belong to the land. So if the fish is brought from the water to the land, it cannot be comfortable at any stage. It will die. Similarly you are Brahman, part and parcel of Brahman, particle of Brahman. So unless you return to Brahman, you cannot be happy.

Guest (2): But if we look at the world as it is today we'll find that people who are the most powerful in this world are those who...

Prabhupāda: Who is powerful? First of all let us see who is powerful.

Guest (2): Like United States, like Soviet Union. There is no other power in this world who can...

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by powerful? Then President Nixon is not afraid of anything, do you think?

Guest (2): He personally may not, may be afraid of something, but as a country, yes, it's very powerful. The whole world is afraid of them.

Prabhupāda: Well, President Nixon means this country. Why he went to China? Why he went to Russia? He's also afraid. If there is war there will be great calamity. So everyone is afraid. Everyone is under the control of the laws of nature. Everyone is hungry. So actually nobody's powerful in this material world. Even if he's powerful, it is for temporary. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Churchills and others came and gone. There was powerful British Empire, powerful Roman Empire. So nobody's powerful. That's a wrong idea. In due course of time everything will be kicked out and finished. That is the law of nature.

Guest (2): Yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that it seems to me that if you carefully look at the world history during the past...

Prabhupāda: World history is that history repeats itself. Everything comes into existence and then vanquished.

Guest (2): No, that's not what I mean. What I meant is that during the past two thousand years, whoever was very powerful was who was doing all these four things which we are, which you are suggesting that we should give up, you see.

Prabhupāda: But I say that my challenge is nobody's powerful. That is my challenge.

Guest (2): I mean...

Prabhupāda: You mean, but that is not the fact.

Guest (2): It's a fact, I mean, when they are powerful they rule the whole earth.

Prabhupāda: Where is your Hitler? Where is your Mussolini? Where is Napoleon?

Guest (2): Yes, Hitler is gone, but then we have that U.S., you see. If tomorrow U.S. goes, maybe there will be Soviet Union.

Prabhupāda: So that means everyone will come into power for some days; then it will be finished. That's all.

Guest (2): Yeah, but all the people who are getting into the power are people who are having these four vices, you know, and...

Prabhupāda: Therefore their power is finished. If you become sinful, then your power will not exist. Just like Rāvaṇa became powerful. He was so powerful that he dared to take away Sītā. But he also became vanquished. That is the history.

Guest (2): Yes but people say that...

Prabhupāda: People say, that is other... You see the fact. Nobody is powerful; nobody can exist here. For the temporary, say for some years, you may be so-called powerful but it is not powerful. We are concerned with eternal life. We are not interested in the so-called power for a few days. That is not our aim.

Guest (2): Yes, but if we say that everything is destined, like the moment your body is manufactured and...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): ...everything is destined, then we are probably as well destined to be Kṛṣṇa conscious or to be non-Kṛṣṇa conscious, you know.

Prabhupāda: No. That destiny can change. Śāstra says... Destined means so far you're... Suppose you are to get, say, one thousand dollars per month. That you'll get. You try for it or don't try for it, you'll get. Therefore we should not waste our time for getting one thousand dollars. We should utilize the time for developing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is our philosophy.

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido

na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ

tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ

kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā

Just like nobody tries for becoming unhappy, but unhappiness comes. Nobody tries, that "Let me become unhappy." But people become unhappy. Why? He does not try for it. Similarly, that happiness also, even if you don't try for it, it will come. So śāstra says, "You don't bother yourself for worldly happiness or unhappiness. Whatever you are destined, you'll get it. You try for develop your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which in other life, in the animal life, you could not do." In the animal... (break) ...advised... If the animal is advised that, "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious," he cannot do it. He has no power. But a man can do it. Therefore the man's main business should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for so-called economic development. Economic development will come automatically, what you are destined to have. This is our philosophy. We don't try for any economic development. All our members, we have no concern what we shall eat tomorrow, although we haven't got any source of income. We are pushing this movement all over the world. We have got about one hundred branches and similar devotees are there, each branch, not less than twenty-five. What is that?

Devotee (3): Twenty in San Diego.

Prabhupāda: Twenty. And about two hundred somewhere. And in America you know the expenditure. We are living in the best part of the city. But we have no source of income. We take some books, some incense, but there is no guarantee that it will be sold. So it is not a book of technology, general demand--Kṛṣṇa book. So if somebody's kindly interested in Kṛṣṇa, he'll purchase. So we are living in this way, depending on Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's supplying all necessities. We have got seventy thousand dollar expenditure per month. So this is practical. We don't try for getting any job or any business. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. But our main business is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness and follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are... There is no problem for us. To collect seventy thousand dollars and spend every month, do you think is very easy job? A big government is concerned, or a big company, to collect seventy thousand dollars and distribute it again. It is a big problem. So how... We are increasing our centers. Practically every month, two, one, two. And we have got huge expenditure. But Kṛṣṇa is supplying. So we should see the example, be confident, depend on Kṛṣṇa and then everything is all right. Kṛṣṇa is powerful. He's omnipresent. He knows better than me. Our business is to satisfy Him. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So we are preaching this, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa said. The same thing we are saying. We are not manufacturing it. Why should we manufacture? The words are already there. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We simply... Just like I have come to your place. What am I speaking? I am speaking that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious." We don't talk of any economic problem, political problem. We don't talk.

Guest (2): How can you separate out economics, politics...

Prabhupāda: There is no separation. Kṛṣṇa is the all-inclusive. Economic problem means eating, sleeping, mating or getting some money. So we are getting money. I have already given you account.

Guest (2): Yes, but... No. As far as ISKCON is concerned, maybe that is true. But supposing if you take an individual devotee, see, who is married and has a family and all that... He cannot...

Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there--everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Guest (2): What are the kṣatriyas of this order supposed to doing now?

Prabhupāda: They are taking to politics. Yes.

Guest (2): Whom are they fighting? Whom are they going to fight?

Prabhupāda: No, some of our members, they are standing for election in the government. Election. And we hope one day some of our men will become President. That is kṣatriya's business, to take part in administration.

Guest (2): No fighter? No fighting? They are not going to fight? They're not going to become warriors, not like the real kṣatriyas.

Prabhupāda: Well, when you take part in politics you have to fight. (laughter) Yes.

Guest (2): I don't mean that. I mean muṣṭi fighting.

Prabhupāda: Well, if required, muṣṭi fight will be there. Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. He was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Guest (2): Yes. But what I'm basically asking is what are these kṣatriyas going to fight with?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya fought... Why don't you take the case of Arjuna? He was a kṣatriya. He fought for Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Yes, but in those days, you see, there is some kind of a clear cut...

Prabhupāda: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life.

Guest (2): Okay.Then the question is whom shall we fight now? Okay, supposing we are all...

Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes.

Guest (2): Fight in a real..., sword, fight with swords?

Prabhupāda: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord Rāmacandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Devāsura-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of sādhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight.

Guest (2): Yes but if that is the case, you see, then the Muslim Mullah, or whatever you may call, says, "Fight all non-Muslims."

Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim... It is not the question of Muslims and Hindus. When there is right cause for fighting...

Guest (2): But what I mean is a Muslim Mullah can say all non...

Prabhupāda: Well, why you are making...? We are talking of philosophy. That is applicable to the Muslim or to the Hindus or everyone. When there is right cause of fight, one must fight. This is philosophy.

Guest (2): Yes but what is the basis on which you decide whether a cause is right or wrong? There should be a common basis. You see.

Prabhupāda: Just like aggressor. Aggressor. Just like you are living in this room. If somebody enters your room and attacks your wife, you must fight. You immediately kill him. That is the law. This is fight. You cannot see your wife being insulted before you. You must fight. You must kill him. That is the law. Aggressor.

Guest (2): Does this apply to the brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

Guest (2): How do you define a brāhmaṇa?

Prabhupāda: The brain.

Guest (2): That is for a man, but...

Prabhupāda: That is for everything. The brain of the society should be brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): By brain what do you mean?

Prabhupāda: What do you mean, that you learn. You come to our school. Then you learn. You cannot learn everything in one minute.

Guest (2): (laughs) No.

Prabhupāda: Then you just hear. Don't make yourself laughing stock.

Guest (2): No, what I mean is brāhmaṇa means by birth or by action or...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not by birth. By action.

Guest (2): By action only.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): You don't recognize brāhmaṇas by birth, then.

Prabhupāda: No no. Then how they are becoming brāhmaṇas? They are not by birth brāhmaṇa? Why don't you see yourself? They are brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So if there is a brāhmaṇa by birth, if he doesn't...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not sanctioned by the śāstra.

Guest (2): Oh, I see. So there is no real brāhmaṇa by birth.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no... That is not sanctioned by the śāstra. That is artificial.

Guest (2): I see. So according to you...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means by quality. He must have the brahminical quality, then he's brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So under these principles then, there are no brāhmaṇas in India, really, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the... Not only...

Guest (2): Not all the brāhmaṇas who are supposed to be brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We... Our... This philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to the Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata, we don't accept brāhmaṇa by birth. We accept brāhmaṇa by quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Quality and work.

Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a śūdra?

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra. A brāhmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A śūdra... Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam. They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is śūdra.

Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all śūdras.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of the śāstra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra."

Guest (2): :So only those who have independent means, then, would come in the...

Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"--the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"--qualification. "He's vaiśya,"--qualification. "He's śūdra--by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyaïjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): What about intermarriage between all the castes?

Prabhupāda: Well, intermarriage, that has introduced according to the social system. But so far we are concerned, we are allowing intermarriage from any country, any... If he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, we help him marry. There are so many intermarriages in our society. So try to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it so that there will be oneness--one God, one scripture, one nation, one religion--according to Vedic injunction. Not that we are manufacturing something. That is the Vedic injunction.

Guest (2): What is the speciality of Vedic injunction compared to Hebrew scriptures?

Prabhupāda: Vedic injunction is, the ultimate goal of human life, to go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. This is not... As... I have already explained that this is not our home, material world. We are spirit soul. Our real home is spiritual world. So in the lives, different species of life, 8,400,000's of species of life, they cannot understand it, that we are spirit soul, our home is in the spiritual world. They cannot understand it. That opportunity is available in this human form of life. Therefore if we don't take advantage of this information and prepare ourself accordingly, then we are losing the opportunity. Tad api aphala-janma. Anāśrita govinda-caraṇa-dvayam.(?)

Guest (2): But how does this differ from the Hebrew scriptures? Hebrews also say the same thing, you know, that you have fallen down from the heaven and go back...

Prabhupāda: But Hebrew... Hebrew, Indian, there are... The aims is the same--back to home, back to Godhead. The process may be different. The process may be different. Just like everyone wants some money. Without money he cannot exist. The process may be different, how he's earning money. Similarly, every religion, the aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Now the process may be different according to country, time, climate, men. That is another thing. But the... The same example. Either you are businessman or in service or working, craftsman, the aim is you require some money. Without money you cannot exist. This is crude example. Similarly, the aim is we are part and parcel of God. We... Unless we go back to home, back to Godhead, there cannot be any peace. That understanding is possible to develop in this human form of life, not in the animal form of life. Therefore every human being should take advantage of this human form of life and develop this idea of going back to home, back to Godhead. Either you do it through Hebrew religion or Christian religion or Hindu religion, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If your aim is... Just like at the present moment people want money. If he gets money it doesn't matter in which way he gets the money. Money we must have. Similarly, the aim should be fulfilled. Either you fulfill it through the Hebrew or through Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, it doesn't matter. But if the aim is missed, then you miss everything. That is the definition in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata,

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

Everyone has got his particular type of religion or occupation. That's all right. Dharma. Svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām. The result will be... By executing your particular type of religion, the result must be there. The result is "How I shall go back to home, back to Godhead." If that desire is not developed, it is simply waste of time. You may profess this religion or that religion or this religion, or that religion. It doesn't matter. You are simply wasting time by following the dogmas and ritualistic this or that. That will not help you. Phalena paricīyate. Whether you have come to this consciousness, "What I am? I am not matter; I am spirit. I have to go back to my spiritual." That... That is wanted. So either you may be Hebrew or may be Hindu or Christian. We want to see whether that consciousness has arisen. If it is not, then you have simply wasted time. Either you be Hindu or brāhmaṇa or this or that, it doesn't matter. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply wasting time.

 

Room Conversation                             September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas                                               343514

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means qualified brāhmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

Śyāmasundara: All over Texas.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (2): Fort Worth.

Śyāmasundara: Where we went to that television show today, that was Fort Worth. That's another city. They have more slaughterhouses.

Guest (2): I had some arguments about this. Some people won't eat cow. They say, "It's not Indian cow, so we can eat it." (laughs) All kinds of intelligent arguments.

Prabhupāda: Indian people say like that?

Guest (2): Some of them, not all. It's not said, anybody. It's just argument of people that... Even Americans. People, they say, "We are not killing your sacred cow because your sacred cow is in your country." It was long ago, I remember. During lunch break we had some argument.

Prabhupāda: Then what are these? American cows?

Guest (2): Yes. They said, "Our cows are not holy."

Prabhupāda: Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. They are blind. They do not know about self. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, parābhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, parābhava.

 

Morning Walk                                             April 21, 1973, Los Angeles                                                        344898

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) ...Bhavānanda Mahārāja, Sudāmā Mahārāja, very nice. (pause) Everyone was dancing.

Prabhupāda: They have discovered one watch machine. You have seen that? You can, you can immediately know what is the time where all the important places.

Brahmānanda: By a dial?

Prabhupāda: No, by electricity.

Karandhara: Yes. It has a dial on it. You turn the dial and it tells you the time in different places... (pause)

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana, there is a place called Nidhuvana.

Devotee: Nidhuvana?

Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. So that was a place... Still people go to visit. So one Bhagavān dāsa Bābājī, he was chanting, and in the middle of his chanting he made (makes sound with hands like clapping) like this. So his disciples... (pause) Yes. His disciples asked him: "Sir, why did you (makes clapping sound) do like this?" "So there was a goat entered Nidhuvana. So I drove it away." So where is that machine by which you can see...? It is not the time, but see the activities of everywhere? But that is possible. Yes.

Brahmānanda: Oh, even though he did not see the goat, he knew it was there.

Prabhupāda: No, he's seeing. Otherwise, how does he (makes sound) "Hut, hut, hut." He's seeing. Where is that machine? So this Darwin's theory says that there was no intelligent man or brain but how these books were written, thousands and thousands of years ago? These Vedic śāstras. If there were no intelligent brain? Vyāsadeva, like Vyāsadeva. Before Vyāsadeva also, other great sages, they compiled...

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think it's easier here.

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation for the author who, of the Vedic literatures. They say: "unknown forest sages."

Prabhupāda: Unknown, it may be unknown, but the things are there. Where from they got the brain? That is our question. It may be unknown to you, or unknown to me, but the brain work is there. The philosophy is there, and the... At least, the language, the poetic arrangement, the linguistic strength, everything is there. So you may not know the person, but you can understand the brain. Just like...

Brahmānanda: They think our brain is increasing, but actually we see it decreasing. Because we cannot duplicate that...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only duplicate. You cannot even understand properly. Do you... To understand the Vedic philosophy, you have to tax your brain. Just like Bhagavad-gītā. Take, for Bhagavad-gītā. It is accepted as a great book of philosophy all over the world. And... Now wherefrom this brain came out. Apart from accepting Kṛṣṇa as God, take it, the language, take the language, the philosophy, the thoughts. How great they are. Now how can you say that people had no higher brain. Within hundred years everything has grown up. All these rascals. What is the Darwin's age?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Darwin says the, he says in his history of the origin, he cannot trace completely.

Prabhupāda: Whatever he has traced, what is the history of that tracing history? Tracing age?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he started that life started from very primitive, different primitive forms...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. What is the time of Darwin. Which year he was a professor?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The theory started in 1859, about...

Prabhupāda: 1859. So hundred years ago. So all the brains developed within hundred years. All these rascals came out within hundred years. And before that, there was no other rascal. Just see the fun. All the scientific improvement, anthropology, everything came within hundred or two hundred years.

Brahmānanda: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: Yes. That is their idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Before that, there were no brain.

Brahmānanda: 'Cause they didn't understand his theory.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because before that, they're thinking that there's no intelligent person...

Prabhupāda: That, that, I am pointing out, that all intelligent persons, during the British Empire, they came out. The whole aim was to defy the Indian civilization.

Karandhara: They call it the "Age of Enlightenment."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: After the fifteenth century, they call it the "Age of Enlightenment."

Prabhupāda: So the Britishers, they wanted to rule over India, and they were advertising, at least in India, that: "We are making you civilized. Before British rule, the Indians were rude, primitive natives." That's all. That is their propaganda. The whole propaganda was to make the Indians known that: "We are giving you life and civilization. Before this, you were not even human beings." That is their propaganda. So they accept this literature, but they date within one thousand years, one thousand-five hundred years. Even this rascal, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he dates Bhagavad-gītā within two thousand years. That's all. Perhaps I am the first person making propaganda that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. I am the first person. All other so-called scholars, they have dated within two thousand years. (pause) There was a book: "England's work in India," written by one rascal Indian, M. Ghosh. In that book... That was taught in the schools in our days. The theme of the book is that before British rule, India was not at all advanced in any way. The incidence of satī... Satī. That was very elaborately explained. Satī...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Satī dharma?

Prabhupāda: Satī dharma. Yes. Formerly, even Arjuna's stepmother, Mādrī, he also, she also died with her husband. That was the system. The wife voluntarily used to die along with the husband.

Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī, wife of Dhṛtarāṣṭra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So later on such devoted wife was lacking. So the system was, some cases, they were forced to die. So these things have been elaborately explained in the, that book, and Britishers stopped it. So the Indians were uncivilized. Britishers made them civilized. Everything was misinterpreted. Yes.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they do not know the inner meaning...

Prabhupāda: No, inner meaning is there. But they would not explain that. Simply the dark side, they would explain. And prove that the Indian civilization was very crude and primitive. It has no enlightenment. That was British propaganda. Even during national movement, they bribed one American woman, and she wrote a book: "Mother India." Do you know that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I, no...

Prabhupāda: Ah. "Mother India." She described all the blackmailing of Indian social activities, and Gandhi remarked it: "Drain Inspector's report."

Brahmānanda: What?

Prabhupāda: "Drain inspector's report."

Brahmānanda: Drain?

Prabhupāda: Drain, that sewage water...

Brahmānanda: The sewer.

Prabhupāda: Sewage water.

Brahmānanda: That's what she inspected.

Prabhupāda: She's a drain inspection report. And in reply to that, one Punjabi barrister, he wrote one book: "Uncle Sam". He pointed out all the blackmailing of American government. So these things are going on. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Those who are low class of men, they simply try to find out the faults. Guṇa icchanti saj-janāḥ. And those who are enlightened, they will take the qualities only. Saj-janā guṇa icchanti, doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ, mukti brāhmaṇā icchanti madhum icchanti bhramarāḥ. Yes. That, there are flies, ordinary flies. They are searching after sores, where is sore in your body. And there are bumblebees, they are searching after where is honey. Similarly, those who are rascals, they'll find out: "Oh, here is a fault. Here is a fault." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is a demoniac quality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These Britishers should have tried to assimilate the mass Indian culture with their help, administrative help, to broadcast this culture. No. They wanted to exploit India, and prove that "our ruling over India"... Because they have to show something to the outside world...

Brahmānanda: To justify that exploitation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) They would not allow anyone to enter India to make trade. And that is the cause of two big world wars. This is a... Real cause is India. Because the Germans, they were very intelligent. They were intelligent nation. They wanted to trade with India. So Britishers will not allow them. Actually, Britishers were selling goods, purchasing from Germany and Japan, And when German would go to trade, they will enhance the custom duty very, very large amount. So that was the grudge of the German nation. Two times, they fought with that "Finish these Britishers-shop-keeper's nation." Yes. Hitler, Hitler was... Hitler or the Emperor Wilhelm, some of them, one of them, was calling the Britishers: "shop-keeper's nation."

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shop-keeper's nail?

Prabhupāda: Shop-keeper's nation.

Brahmānanda: A nation of shop-keepers only.

Prabhupāda: That's right. Why the shop-keeper's nation should predominate all over the world? Kill them. That is their (indistinct). And actually it is the German people who killed Britishers, British lion. Apart, after the Second War...

Brahmānanda: British was finished.

Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.

Brahmānanda: The, the independence movement of Africa, they took great inspiration from Gandhi's movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Brahmānanda: If Gandhi did it, then, they say: "Oh, now we can do it."

Prabhupāda: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa-nama...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kalidasa?

Prabhupāda: Dr. Kalidasa-nama. Did you hear his name?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Only just now.

Prabhupāda: He was our professor. So he was explaining the different ages of archaeologist, anthropology.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is in philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, history.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, history.

Prabhupāda: In my honors class, I had history. He was teaching us history.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the standard of Calcutta University, Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time when Śrīla Prabhupāda was in the University? How was the...

Prabhupāda: Oh, it was nice. Very nice students were coming out.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moral standard was very good?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We respected our professors like our fathers. The relationship between the student and the professors was very good. I had one Scottish professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. He was my nice friend. He was professor of philosophy, psychology. Later on he became vice-chancellor.

Brahmānanda:Calcutta?

Prabhupāda: Calcutta, yes. A very perfect gentleman. Kind-hearted. Sometimes we joked. We were taking this, what is called, peanuts. So the professor was passing. So some of our friends remarked: (Bengali) So he thought that professor did not know Bengali. So immediately he turned: (Bengali). So we became very much ashamed. Yes. So all the professors from foreign countries, they were instructed to learn Bengali language, local language. That was the system. All officers, big officers, educate... (Aside) Good morning. ...big educationists, they were to learn the local language. And they used to learn Bengali. Especially in Calcutta. There was one professor, Mr. Scrimgeour. He was professor of literature, English literature. So while teaching one English literature, he was giving parallel passage from Bankim Candra Chatterjee. Yes. "Your Bankim babu says like this." He used to say like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: That means he studied Bankim literature. Bankim Candra Chatterjee was compared with Sir Walter Scott, of English literary men. Sir Walter Scott. In those days, Charles Dickens.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Charles Dickens?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Sir Walter Scott were known two very great English literary men.

Karandhara: Novelists.

Prabhupāda: After sixth year... Yes novelists. So the relationship was very nice. There were... Otherwise, how the Britishers could rule, unless there was obedience. But as soon as they saw now the obedience is going on, the soldiers are leaving our camp and joining the national camp," immediately they decided to leave peacefully. Otherwise, there would be some revolution. At that time, all good relationship will go. Better separate with good relation. This was Attlee's policy, to convince statesmen like Churchill that: "You cannot rule over India any more. Better separate in good relationship."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few weeks ago, there was a supplement in the Times, the London Times. So they were describing about the very relationship between British and India, in the early British period and after the British period. There they talked only about very good points, whereas they never say anything about... All good points.

Prabhupāda: No, that... When they discuss, they must describe the good points only. But some of the British rulers were very, very unkind. And the last was that Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, created by Lord Chelmsford. Then the British rule finished. In 1917, and immediately Gandhi started non-cooperation movement. So after thirty years, the Britishers were obliged to leave.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Scottish Church College in Calcutta...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was student there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Śrīla Prabhupāda was in Scottish Church?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very popular among the...

Prabhupāda: Oh, Yes. In Calcutta, there are two colleges, Presidency College and Scottish Churches College. All respectable families, son will go there, Scottish Churches College, Presidency College.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started almost at the same time?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is very old. Presidency College is government, and Scottish Churches College, by the Scottish Church missionaries. There was one priest, Duff, his name was Duff. He started in Srirampur, a small educational institute, Duff Institute. He was a Scotsman. Later on, all the Scottish missionaries combined together and they started this Scottish Churches College.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still now the schools are respected now.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still now they have good names,...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Presidency College and Scottish Church College.

Prabhupāda: Now they are ruined due to this Naxalite movement. Subash Bose was in our college.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Scottish? Oh.

Prabhupāda: He was first in the Presidency College, but on account of his national spirit, he was rusticated from Presidency College. Then he came to our college.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness.

 

Yes, convenience means going to hell. That's all. It is very convenient to go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything synthetic. Cotton is disappearing.

 

Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Kṛṣṇa is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Rādhārāṇī also. That is perfection. Useful, giving milk… Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?

 

You just work little, produce your food, eat, and save time, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the nature's arrangement. Anywhere, any part of the world, you can produce your food. Simply you require a little land and some cows. Everything is complete. You take milk from the cows and just till the field and get some food grains. That is sufficient. Whole economic question solved. And save time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the arrangement.

 

 

So much land is lying there. Simply you keep cows and till ground, get your food grains. Enough…It is a soul-killing civilization. We have to fight against it, to save at least a few men. So you are thoughtful young man. You try to understand this philosophy, and you try to spread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the arrangement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME FOUR

Morning Walk                                             April 27, 1973, Los Angeles                                                        345443

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) How the sand is made? According to scientists?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the combination of, when one atom of silica, two atoms of oxygen. Called silicon dioxide, the chemical name, or silica. But this is existing as a silicate, as a salt of sodium, magnesium, silicate.

Prabhupāda: So there is salt in the water. So from that salt it is produced?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It reacts with the sodium, in the water, sodium in the water, in salt, that sodium reacts with silicic acid. So from sodium silicate, that becomes sand.

Karandhara: It's not rocks pounded down?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, rocks? Oh... No, we can make silicate very easily just by mixing the alkali, sodium and then acid, is just the reaction between the acid in the base. So forming an acid...

Prabhupāda: So far we know, there is this sand, combined with silicate of soda, makes glass.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, glass is nothing but silicate.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Finer sort. Normally silicate is shining, but this is not shining because it contains various mixtures. Not only soda, but other magnesium, calcium silicates.

Prabhupāda: Silicate of soda is mixed with soap also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Adulteration. That's not first-class soap. Washing soap, they are mixed with silicate of soda. (pause) What is this cottage?

 

Morning Walk                                                April 28, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     345507

Prabhupāda: Kliśyamānānām. It is a very important word. Everyone is suffering here. What the scientists can do that? Future. That's all. Bluff. But everyone is suffering here. That is the word. Bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām, avidyā...

Devotee: Kāma...

Prabhupāda: Kāma-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā-kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are creating a situation of suffering by unnecessary desire. That's all. So your scientific improvement means you are creating a situation of suffering. That's all. No improvement. You cannot. Kāma-karmabhiḥ, kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are working in such a way... Bhaktivinoda Öhākura also says the same thing: anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jībake karaye gādhā. The so-called scientific improvement means he's already an ass, and he's becoming more, better ass. That's all. Nothing more. He's already an ass because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has come to this material world to enjoy. That is ass mentality. There is no enjoyment. So he's already an ass. And this scientific improvement means he's becoming more attached to this material world to remain better ass. Avidyā... anitya saṁsāre, anitya. He cannot stay here. Suppose, working very hard like an ass, he gets a skyscraper building, throughout his whole life, laboring. But he cannot stay there. He'll be kicked out. Is it not ass? Is he not an ass? He cannot stay there. Anitya saṁsāre. Anitya. Because it is not the permanent settlement. You are trying: dum dum. (sound imitation) Very strong foundation. That's all right. But your foundation is nothing. You'll be kicked out. Therefore he's an ass. That: "I'll stay here for twenty years." Why dum dum dum, foundation stone? Where is your foundation? Therefore he's an ass.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Anitya is temporary, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes, anitya means temporary. You cannot stay here. That they do not understand. They're making research, making research. And if we ask them: "What you are doing?" "For the next generation, future." And what about your, your...? You're going to be a tree next life. What you'll do with your next generation? But he's ass. He does not know. He s going to stand before that skyscraper building, a tree, for ten thousand years, and he's making: dum dum dum. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know where he's going. And he's making provision for the next generation. What is the next generation? If there is no petrol, what you'll do, next generation? And how the next generation will help you? You are going to be a dog, cat or tree. So next generation, how he'll help you? Jībake karaye gādhā. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know his personal interest. And making research work. What research work? Simply śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply laboring, what is called? Labor of love? Or what is that?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says: bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā. Avidyā means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. This is Bhāgavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words. How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words. Bhave 'smin. Kliśyamānānām. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidyā. Ignorance. What is that avidyā? Kāma-karmabhiḥ.

Brahmānanda: Desire.

Prabhupāda: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.

Prabhupāda: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the statement of Veda. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. If you know Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society, so many scientists are coming, so many psychologists coming. So how we are confident to talk with him? Because we have learned little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is it not? You are a qualified scientist. Why I challenge you? Not that because you are my disciple, you are accepting all my challenges. You have got your reasons. You are not a fool. So how it is possible? Practically, how it is possible? Because we are trying to know little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore this Vedic injunction, yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati, yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. These statements are there. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then you will not hanker after any more profit. Bas. All profit is there. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābham. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then all other kinds of profit, you'll not hanker after. And what kind of profit this is? Yasmin sthito na duḥkhena guruṇāpi vicālyate. If one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the greatest calamity of this world, he'll not be disturbed. This is the greatest profit. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. A big giant, Hiraṇyakaśipu, is putting him always in difficulty, but he's confident: "Yes, there is Kṛṣṇa." A five years old boy. He's not at all disturbed. Father is giving poison. "All right, give me poison." And throwing him from the hill on down. But he is steady. How it is possible? Na duḥkhena guruṇāpi vicālyate. Guru. Guru means heavy, very heavy difficulties. But na vicālyate. He's not perturbed, not disturbed. How it is possible? It is such a thing, that if you know Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are not disturbed in the heaviest type of calamity. So these things should be given to the human society. One thing. That will make his life perfect. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now it is up to you, scientist, to explain. Yes, this is it.

Brahmānanda: That is research work.

Prabhupāda: This is research. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka. Uttamaśloka means Kṛṣṇa. Guṇānuvarṇanam. Describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is success of life. Avicyutaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. By great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhiḥ. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is Bhāgavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right." Another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say: "Today it is all right." And, after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not all right."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we find in science.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what we find in science.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position, my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Making more confusing to the innocent.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed. One scientist explained to some extent. The matter remained the same. Another rascal comes. He explains again. And the matter remains the same. What advancement you have made? Nothing. Simply some volumes of books. That's all. Just like there is petrol problem. What your this explanation will help? You have created problem. Now you are dependent so much on petrol. If the petrol supply is stopped, then what these rascal scientists can do? They cannot do anything. It is stopped. Now there is scarcity of water in India. What the scientists can do? There is enough water. Why the scientists cannot throw this water where there is scarcity of water? It will require the help of cloud. That is God's manipulation. You cannot do anything. Water is here, so much water. Why don't you make this sand fertile by bringing this water? Fertilization made by supplying water in the desert.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So here is water, here is desert. Why don't you do it? You cannot do anything. They are going to the moon planet, the dusty planet, to make it fertilized. Why don't you do here? Sahara desert, Arabian desert, or Rajasthan desert. And the sea water is there. Bring it, and make it fertile, fertilize. "Yes, in future." That's all. "We are trying." And immediately (indistinct): "Yes, yes, they are trying. Take all money. Take all money."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupāda: Even hope, there is no hope.

Brahmānanda: Blind hope.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask any doctor: "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying, everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge? (pause)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real knowledge...is taken away by ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it says: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is claiming that: "I shall lead you, other blind men."

Brahmānanda: Into the pit.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (pause) And in Bhāgavata, in one word, finishes all... Kliśyamānānām. You'll have to work hard, avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So kāma-karmabhiḥ. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem. And you have to work very hard. That's all.

Prabhupāda: What is the next line of that verse? Anyone remembers? No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday's?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) This research work is kāma-karmabhiḥ. This, in the laboratory, research work, that is kāma-karmabhiḥ. They're planning something. That is kāma-karma. He, he does not take the planning of Kṛṣṇa. He makes his own plan. That is kāma-karma. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jïānāḥ. In another place, it is said: When one is engaged in the matter of these unnecessary desires, he becomes lost of all intelligence. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jïānāḥ. (pause) It is like the child's crying. The child is crying, asking mother: "Give me that moon." The mother gives a mirror. "Here is moon, my dear son." He takes the mirror. He sees the moon. "Oh, yes..." He has got the moon. It is not story. Now these rascals are going to the moon planet. Why they have stopped talking anymore?

Karandhara: Well, after spending all that money and taking a few rocks, they decided there's nothing more to do there.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, it is kept for future, or what?

Karandhara: I guess so.

Prabhupāda: Or they've finished their money. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're trying to...

Brahmānanda: They want to go to another one now.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to another planet, Mars.

Prabhupāda: It is, it is finished? The moon planet is finished?

Karandhara: For the time being.

Brahmānanda: Yes, their, their travels there are finished.

Prabhupāda: Simply by taking some dust?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Just see how much...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: How great asses they are.

Karandhara: Billions.

Prabhupāda: You, you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy "that this hard-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff. "Don't worry. I am going another planet."

Brahmānanda: Yeah, right. Another one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust."

Brahmānanda: Another future.

Prabhupāda: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust. I'll bring tons of dust. Don't.... And if I... "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and tons... What is the meaning?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They believe there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful...

Prabhupāda: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he'll gain? What is your gain?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're very curious to know what is going on there.

Prabhupāda: That means for their childish curiosity they're spending so much money. Just see the fun. To satisfy their curiosity, they're spending so much money. And when they're asked that: "There are so many poverty stricken countries. Help them." "No. No money."

Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very happy and they think: "Oh, my country has done this. They have gone to the moon. I am happy. I'm satisfied. I'm glad to be an American."

Prabhupāda: What's that?

Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very, the public, they're very satisfied: "Oh, I am an American, and we have done this. We have gone to the moon. We are so good."

Prabhupāda: Why don't you say: "We have gone to Kṛṣṇa-loka, Vṛndāvana, which you have no information"?

Brahmānanda: Then all their curiosity will be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called "scientific advancement." (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can we hear a little bit from the Sāìkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sāìkhya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements.

Prabhupāda: Sāìkhya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also sāìkhya philosophy. Sāì, sāìkhya, it comes from the word, "saì-khyā".

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saì-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sāìkhya. So, from the saìkhyā, the word, it comes sāìkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāìkhya philosophy. So you are also sāìkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāìkhya philosopher. We are also sāìkhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāìkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The, the nature of the inferior and the superior energies...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...are also described in the sāìkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly the sāìkhya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just the creative material elements?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it, itself, has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and... Will they make water? Will they make?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hydrogen, oxygen?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen. Will the combination come in contact?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unless it is not mixed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you require a superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior... Similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself. Although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the action of force is necessary?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Force.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is some scientists' theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion.

Devotee: Newton?

Prabhupāda: I think Newton's.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Newton has the laws of motion.

Prabhupāda: Motion. So one must give the motion. Then another motion, another motion, another motion. Just like big, big, that trucks, railway, trucks. The engine pushes one truck. Have you seen shunting? The, the truck pushes. Another truck, another, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat. Like that.

Brahmānanda: Shunting, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata kak kata kak kata kak kata kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Kṛṣṇa is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. That is stated in the Bha... mayādhyakṣeṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Kṛṣṇa has created. He says, "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree. Many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Kṛṣṇa, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another... So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out, trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material elements...

Prabhupāda: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words?

Brahmānanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: No, remote cause.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. Vedic literature: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam, the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests... Some... Not ordinary persons. Authorized person. You won't accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not know that there are two types of energies...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...inferior and the superior.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine. So many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine? So we are concerned with the operator, Kṛṣṇa, not with the machine. If you say: "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe. I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, here is the person. That's all. Now if you say: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Kṛṣṇa. Another..." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal. (break) Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's not possible.

Prabhupāda: No, no. But see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is working. You cannot create even a few grains of sand, and you are claiming that: "We have become more than God." How foolishness it is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will take the, the matter from Kṛṣṇa, and they will manipulate, and they will claim that they have done it. For example, they can make some, some sands...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. At least if you accept that "I have taken this matter from Kṛṣṇa." That is also good. Just like we take. We take Kṛṣṇa, from Kṛṣṇa is coming everything. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will not say that they are taking from Kṛṣṇa. They'll say that they have created.

Prabhupāda: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that: "I have taken from the nature."

Prabhupāda: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created. You have stolen. Thief you are. And we say: "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa." Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Éśāvāsyam, it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yes... If one does not perform yajïa, he's a thief. Yajïa means acknowledging that things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa. And we must satisfy Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, You have given so many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgement Kṛṣṇa wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Prasāda. Prasāda means acknowledging: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Kṛṣṇa's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world. Again produce it, as it is. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. Kṛṣṇa is so perfect, that you take from Kṛṣṇa, whole Kṛṣṇa's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy.

 

Morning Walk                                               April 29, 1973, Los Angeles                                                      345742

Prabhupāda: They are simply set of rascals. All people are unhappy there. Unhappy. They cannot speak anything against the government and they have got so many protests to lodge. So many. But they cannot speak. If you speak, immediately he's sent to the concentrated camp. Some... Nobody knows where he has gone. You see the Kruschev, such a big man. Nobody knows where he is. That is their policy. As soon as you are suspicious,... Therefore Lelin... Lelin, Lelin...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lenin...

Prabhupāda: Not Lenin. Stalin.

Karandhara: Stalin.

Prabhupāda: Stalin. He's estimated to be the greatest criminal in the world. As soon as he'll suspect you... You may be a great friend. Next day you are finished. He'll ask his friend: "Now, here is poison and here is revolver. What do you want? If you want to die yourself, take this poison, and die. Otherwise, you'll be shot." So what he will select? He will take poison. Finish. This was his business. As soon as little suspicion. He'll call him: "Now here is poison. Here is revolver. What do you want?" Yes.

Karandhara: Their scientists are very proud.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: The Russian scientists are very proud in their working, and they're atheistical. But still they're not able to produce enough food. Every year, there's not enough food.

Prabhupāda: No. There's not enough food. Yes. I have experienced it. You cannot get food as you like. What government supplies, you have to accept. That's all. And that is rubbish, all rubbish. Generally, they supply meat. No fruit, no vegetable, no rice, no, nothing. You cannot get. You simply eat meat. That's all. And milk is available. This is their arrangement. And in all store, lines. You have to ask, even if you want to take meat only, you cannot go and immediately purchase. You have to wait for three hours, control. This is their position. No bank. No motor car. No taxicab. Simply... There are simply symbolic. And people are poverty-stricken so much that one taxi driver, he was trying to cheat us. They have no sufficient money. So they saw us, that: "Here is a foreigner, Indian and American. Let me cheat." This is their position. Just like India. India, being poverty-stricken, they also cheat. Of course, cheating is a disease. But especially those who are poverty-stricken, generally, they cheat, they steal. No character. And all women are engaged for sweeping, fat, fat women. (pause)

Karandhara: Now in Russia, the people are starting to become disillusioned.

Prabhupāda: I, I, I am traveling all over the world. My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness. So in Russia, there is neither material nor spiritual. So they are unhappy in all respects. I asked Professor Kotovsky to call for a taxi. So he said: "Well, it is Moscow. Very difficult to get taxi." So he came down himself, he showed us this way: "Please go in this way, in this way, and you get (to) your hotel." He's a big man. He knows that taxi will not be available. And there are few taxis only, show. I did not see any store very neat and clean, well-decorated. Not a single. All old with dust. As if antique shop. The antique shop, just like in your country. I was daily having my morning walk in the Red Square. The most dangerous square...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What square?

Prabhupāda: Red Square. Yes. I think you have got my picture.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Many visitors are waiting to see the tomb of Lenin. Yes. They were worshiping Lenin. As we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, they are worshiping Lenin. So I, I asked Professor Kotovsky: "Where is the difference in principle? You are also worshiping somebody. So you, you have not been able to stop worshiping. How you can be Godless. You have made your God, that's all. Somebody false God." I did not say him also that: "This is your false God," but I said that: "You are worshiping Lenin. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difference in philosophy? "You have to worship somebody." Now it is my selection whether I shall worship Lenin or Kṛṣṇa. That is different thing. But the principle of worshiping is there in you and in me." He could not answer. What he'll answer? Everywhere it is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that, that also shows that the, there is superior person than man to worship.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is: "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior?

Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they will choose someone.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they'll choose someone, someone very beautiful...

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool. He's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine, he's submitting: "Yes sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature. If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately when death comes, we have to submit to...

Prabhupāda: Yes, one has to submit to death. Yes. What is the time now?

Karandhara: About ten to seven.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We lost an hour last night.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end of recording)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 30, 1973, Los Angeles                                                      345768

Prabhupāda: ...things of value, they're disappearing. Just like formerly people used to have some dishes of valuable metals. Now it is plastic. This is the advancement.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It's...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what they call.

Prabhupāda: Rascals, they are thinking it is advancement. And if he goes to sell the plastic plates, nobody will pay even cent. But one of those metal plate, if he's in difficulty, he can get some money. This is scientific advancement. Instead of gold coins, now there is papers: "I trust in God. We trust in God." Cheating, "We trust in God." Take hundred dollars. And what is this hundred dollars? It is paper. "We trust in God." By the name of God, I give you. And it is scientific. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call it convenience.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call it convenience.

Prabhupāda: Yes, convenience means going to hell. That's all. It is very convenient to go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything synthetic. Cotton is disappearing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything's artificial.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Artificial.

Prabhupāda: Artificial. And the scientists, they are giving this clue: "Oh, now we have produced something very valuable. Take it."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, when Dupont made the first nylon, it was a great..., praised all over the, all over the world...

Prabhupāda: What for? What for?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they produced the synthetic fibers, nylons.

Prabhupāda: Useless. And big, big cars. They are charging thousands and thousands of dollars. But what it is? Tin car. As soon as the machine gone, nobody will pay for the tin even. Especially in this country, they are thrown away to the garbage. No value. (pause) In India, we have seen still, they are going on. People stock metal utensils. You know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we use.

Prabhupāda: Never use this china clay. Never. No respectable gentleman will use china clay. Still. So if a poor family is in need of money, immediately he can take one Benarsee sari, or some metal utensils to the pawn maker. He'll immediately offer some money. "Yes." So these are conveniences. Investment was in gold ornaments. Still we have seen that so many jewelry shop, silver dishes shop, ornament shop. Still. Every marriage, the father must give at least fifty tolās. I was not a rich man. Still I had to give to my daughter fifty tolās of gold during marriage. Fifty tolās. Two and a half tolās makes one ounce. So what is the value of fifty tolās?

Karandhara: Twenty-five ounces? Right now that's worth about two thousand, three hundred dollars.

Prabhupāda: Just see. So that is her stock. Strī-dhana. The husband cannot touch. Then it is criminal. So in case of need, she can convert the ornaments into money. Sometimes there is disagreement with the husband. So she has got some stock. The father gives some ornaments. The father-in-law gives some ornament. The relatives also, during marriage, they present some ornaments. So if he, if she gets hundred tolās of gold, that means at least five hundred...?

Karandhara: Almost five thousand.

Prabhupāda: Oh, five thousand dollars. She has got some assets. That is called strī-dhana. Strī-dhana means "woman's property." Nobody can touch it. Only, according to Manu-saṁhitā law, strī-dhana... Now they are changing. Strī-dhana, the son cannot touch, the husband cannot touch. Nobody can touch. But, after her death, the daughters will share that money. Because formerly, the daughters could not get share of the father's estate. Only the dowry which is given by the father at the time of her marriage. That much. But she could not claim any estate share. Therefore at the time of marriage, the dowry by ornaments, saris. Hundred pieces of sari. If one is rich man. All Benarsee sari, costly. And woman's nature is that if she gets good ornaments, saris, good food, she's satisfied. She doesn't want anything. She'll never become faithless to her husband. So these things are disappearing. Now rich man, rich man's wife, no ornament. (indistinct). Only the widows, they were without ornaments. Any woman who has got husband must have ornaments. Otherwise, insult. So individual liberty, individual prosperity, everything is disappearing. By the scientific improvement. That's all. This is the net result. Now in your country, that... What is that? Draft board? Eh?

Karandhara: Draft board?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Calling young men to fight.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Drafting... The army?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: They don't do it anymore.

Prabhupāda: Eh? They do not do it?

Prabhupāda: They stopped it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they saw: "Now we are producing more hippies for this. Only for, on account of this."

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the, the material world itself is very temporary.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The material world itself is temporary. So the scientists still make it much more temporary?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By investing, by, by finding out the different ways of..., they're called conveniences. So by producing these things makes much more comfortable.

Prabhupāda: Easier. Easier to die. They have invented the atomic. Very easy to kill. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa ... (pause) But, in, despite all these disadvantages, if the scientists bring in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then that is success. It will be success. The sea, without waves, does not look well. Without waves, when the sea's calm and quiet, it does not look well. What do you think? Eh?

Karandhara: It does not look well?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now with waves it looks beautiful.

Karandhara: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that is the property of the ocean.

Prabhupāda: No, everything has got some quality and beauty. Just like Cāṇakya Paṇòita says: nārīṇāṁ bhūṣaṇaṁ patiḥ. Woman, the personal beauty is not beauty. When she has got a husband, then she's beautiful. How scientific it is. All these girls in your country, without husband, they're all morose, unhappy. They have no fixity of husband. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The woman population is greater everywhere, and if they have no husband, they're very sorry. I have studied in this country. They're very unhappy without husband. Therefore I introduced this marriage in our society. Now in our society see all the women with children, how happy they are.

Brahmānanda: Oh yes.

Prabhupāda: They have got Kṛṣṇa, they have got husband, they have got children. Now, happy they are. They're working hard for beauty of the home, for the temple. And now last night that Mukunda's cousin sister came. How unhappy she is.

Brahmānanda: Yes. You could also see the child.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: The difference between that child and our children.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: You could see immediately.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, that girl was Mukunda's...?

Prabhupāda: Cousin sister. Without husband, woman is very, very unhappy. Therefore according to Vedic system the father has got a very responsible duty to get the daughter married. It is a responsibility of the father. In the absence of father, elder brother. Now the scientists have given them contraceptives. Don't marry and use contraceptive. This is scientific advancement. And the contraceptive user of girls, they're never beautiful. Natural beauty... Natural beauty's lost. Did you mark it? Between a woman having natural children, her beauty's better than the girl using contraceptives. It is natural. As soon as you check natural system, you become in difficulty. The... Still the system is current. Kṣatriyas, kings, when they are married... You have seen, Kṛṣṇa's father's marriage... So many women also were given.

Brahmānanda: Yes, in charity.

Prabhupāda: Because always women population is greater than the man. So those who are kings, they could maintain more than one wife. So not only one wife, another three dozen maid-servants. They are freely mixing with king. They got also children. But they were not, I mean to say, eligible for throne. Only the married wife's son. This is, this was the system. Just like Vidura. Vidura happened to be a son of such maid-servant. So she had, he had no claim on the throne. Dāsī-putra. They were called dāsī-putras. They were maintained. Just like in royal family, but they have no claim on the throne. (pause)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are two scientists working on how to make...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to make chemicals for contraceptive. One is in Stanford. His name is Carl Geraldsey. And one is in Harvard. His name is Corey, E.J. Corey. They are quite famous now.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very famous now.

Prabhupāda: Because they gave contraceptives?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They are trying to make compounds, steroids.

Prabhupāda: Sterile. When all the scientists are not famous, notorious. Then this will be called notorious. Somebody has manufactured atomic weapon. Somebody has contraceptive. Somebody has synthetics.

Brahmānanda: All rogues.

Prabhupāda: Scientists means they must do something mischievous. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately, they're saying that: "In the future, we'll make tablets, scientists will make tablets, just, taking one or two tablets and they will be satisfied, their hunger." So food will be very simplified.

Prabhupāda: But the food value will be taken by him. "Instead of paying to the stores, you pay us. We give you tablet."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're dreaming so many things.

Prabhupāda: Idle brain is a devils' workshop. Because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their brain is a workshop of the devil. That's all. Harer nāma harer nāma... (pause) And without culture men are becoming rogues and thieves, uncultured. Communist movement. Atheistic... Everywhere, nobody's happy. The government's duty, first duty should be that everyone is happy. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Even there was no natural disturbances. No excessive heat, no excessive cold. No anxiety. People are dying now out of anxieties. They're becoming mad, committing suicide, drinking liquors more and more. Just for anxiety. When they cannot solve any big problem, "Bring bottle." Is it not?

 

Morning Walk                                            May 13, 1973, Los Angeles                                                          346453

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūòhāni māyayā. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrārūòhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mahāprabhu?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.

Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupāda: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahaṁsa: If we want.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha haïā bhoga vāïchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore."

                                                                                                                                                                        346496

Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said kaumāra ācaret prājïo dharmān bhāgavatān: "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Because of sense gratification or mind...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...,

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt.

Prabhupāda: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.

Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ: "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."

Paramahaṁsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....

Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: But they have taken the position of brāhmaṇas in the society.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa's position is to teach brāhmaṇa knowledge, brahma-jïāna. That is brāhmaṇa.

Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology...

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body?

Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.

Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdras. That I have already said.

Paramahaṁsa: But now they listen more to scientists.

Prabhupāda: That means śūdra. Śūdras are interested to hear from śūdra.

Paramahaṁsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be, therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by the saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.

Paramahaṁsa: But preach first.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't preach.

Prabhupāda: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.

Paramahaṁsa: A new method of warfare.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a little wet.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?

Prabhupāda: Well, the questions... Answers are there in my books.

Paramahaṁsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramātmā?

Prabhupāda: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity.

 

Morning Walk                                               May 14, 1973, Los Angeles                                                       346682

Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under māyā, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. How to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā, why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, "Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati... and everything in Me, he's perfect."

Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should return to the car.

Prabhupāda: All right. Yo māṁ paśyati... (pause) The karmīs, they are thinking, "Everything for me." The jïānīs they are thinking, "Why shall I be implicated in this material things?" And we say that there is nothing material. Dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. "Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he's immediately promoted to the transcendental platform, brahma." He becomes brahma. Now, somebody may say, "Oh, we see he has got the same body, how he has become brahma?" And how Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, he has already become brahma." How to adjust?

Paramahaṁsa: Like the flower.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing. Yes. As soon as everything is understood in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is brahma-bhūta stage. That is liberated stage. Everything is created by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is meant for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness life. That is perfect life. Somebody asked me, "Why you have come to this country?" It is not your country. I've not come to your country, I've come to Kṛṣṇa's country. (laughter)

 

Morning Walk                                              May 15, 1973, Los Angeles                                                        346725

Umāpati: Well, the argument that has been presented is that "Well we don't have it now, but soon we're to have it. So..."

Prabhupāda: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say, that "I am trying to..." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You as you don't trust, because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you?

Umāpati: Give them a lot of credit.

Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past.

Prabhupāda: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?

Paramahaṁsa: Helped death.

Prabhupāda: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help?

Umāpati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."

Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?

Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...

Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?

Umāpati: Well, I am not doing this.

Prabhupāda: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now. Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only.

Umāpati: That's their new religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?

Umāpati: Sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Violating.

Paramahaṁsa: They have lost respect as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business?

Umāpati: Somehow they think they have an answer.

Prabhupāda: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?

Umāpati: No.

Prabhupāda: The earth was flat. They believed that the world is flat. So how much imperfect knowledge they have got. So imperfect knowledge, how long it can go? Just like we are going to challenge all these rascals that life is grown out of matter. We are going to challenge. It is not a fact. So how long you can cheat people? For hundred, two hundred, thousand years, but you cannot cheat for all the time.

Umāpati: It has been going on from time immemorial. I guess they figure they can just keep going on for time immemorial.

Prabhupāda: No time immemorial. You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all. Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two hundred years. That's all. So you are being cheated for the last two hundred years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another fifty years, everything will be finished.

Karandhara: Yes, they say now there is an anti-intellectual movement. People are rebelling to science and modern progress.

Prabhupāda: What is that science? That is not science. That is ignorance. Ignorance. Simply ignorance. Ignorance is going as science. Irreligion is going as religion. So how long it will go? People are becoming intelligent.

Paramahaṁsa: In Newsweek Magazine--it's the largest magazine in the United States--there was an article about the degradation of Christianity, and they summarized it with a cartoon, a picture of the devil, you know māyā. This is their image of māyā. And he was causing earthquakes. There was a very large earthquake in South America. It killed many thousands of people. So they attribute this to māyā. And right next to them was a picture of Richard Nixon, because he is a very famous, you know... He presents himself as a follower of Christ. And he's bombing Southeast Asia.

Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill."

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā--you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati: "By knowing Kṛṣṇa only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy. Now, our question was that we say that the man... I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say, "The man is made after God." Is it not?

Paramahaṁsa: "In the image of God."

Prabhupāda: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God."

Umāpati: The most ideal image of a human being is God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. So you take a perfect man. Just like Kṛṣṇa, you take a perfect man, take him as man, you see that He is God. He has got all the perfections. Even if you take him as a man.

Paramahaṁsa: No competition.

Prabhupāda: No competition. That is Bhagavān. Bhagavān means... We are giving this definition. Bhagavān means a perfect man. That's all. Now, just like man wants to wife, to have wife. So why there is, what is called, adulteration? He wants more than one wife. Just see, perfect Kṛṣṇa, He has got sixteen thousand wives, which you cannot imagine. Here is perfection. You cannot say that a man has no inclination to have more than one wife. That is there. So that propensity is, in perfection, is there in Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is God.

Umāpati: They refer to it as the Don Juan complex.

Prabhupāda: Juan complex, what is that?

Umāpati: It's a character in Spanish history, fictional history. The perfect lover, the image that all men would like to be, the perfect lover.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be perfect lover than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, He loves everyone. Where is that man, he loves everyone? The so-called patriot, they love their countrymen, but kill their animals. Why? Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen. Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Kṛṣṇa is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Rādhārāṇī also. That is perfection. That is perfection. Kṛṣṇa talks with birds. These are there. One day on the bank of Yamunā He was talking with a bird. One old lady saw and said, "Oh, He's talking with a bird?" That is perfection.

Paramahaṁsa: He sounded like this? He talked like that, like the birds talk?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another quality is bahubhāṣājïaḥ, He can speak in any language.

Umāpati: Birds have language? Animals have their language?

Prabhupāda: Oh yeah everyone has language. Everyone.

Umāpati: Father, how is it that we can enjoy this energy we are in, Kṛṣṇa's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Kṛṣṇa's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Kṛṣṇa's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk.

Prabhupāda: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is māyā. That is māyā. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is māyā.

Umāpati: Just like the doctor's...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is māyā. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these gṛhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Forty drops.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And how many, how much drops of semen he is discharging... That means he's spoiling his blood. But he is thinking, "I am enjoying." Would you like to, by giving your blood to enjoy? Would you like?

Umāpati: No, I don't think I'd like.

Prabhupāda: But you are doing that, every night. And that is called māyā.

Umāpati: I'm a brahmacārī, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, you are...(laughter) I am giving an example. This is going on. He is going to die. He has adopted a process by which he will die, and he thinks that he is enjoying. This is called māyā. Māyā means things which is not, māyā. Mā means not, yā means this. "What you are thinking, it is not that." That is called māyā. So they are in māyā means, they are thinking, these rascals, they are thinking, improving, becoming happy, advancing this māyā word will finish everything, mā, yā: "Not this." Bhāgavata says that "You are thinking you are becoming victorious, but you are being defeated." Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. These rascal, abodha-jātaḥ, born fools and rascal, they are becoming defeated in every step. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he does not inquire about his self, "What I am," he is simply being defeated. That's all. This is the verdict.

Umāpati: Walking further into the cave.

Prabhupāda: He's working foolishly like animal. He does not know what is soul, what he is, nothing of the sort. He is working hard day and night and he is thinking, "I am becoming victorious." This is called māyā. What victory? Have you won victory over birth, death, the real problem? "No. We have won victory. We can now, without horse, we can go with a car." So what is that? With a horse or without horse, you cannot go anywhere else. You will be here within this world. That's all. Just like these rascals, now they have invented car. You know that? Formerly they were walking.

Karandhara: Yes. Now he is pulling car.

Prabhupāda: That's all. What is that? That within he's..., that golf area. (Apparently, a man is mowing grass on a machine in the background) That's all. (laughing) You know the cow? The cow is stuck up with a pole in India and long rope, and he's thinking, "I am free."

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: They have made a longer rope.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is thinking, "I am so free." Is not? This rascaldom is going on.

Paramahaṁsa: The one who wrote Paradise Lost, Milton, he also wrote a poem which said that, "A working man is nothing but a devil's slave."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.

Paramahaṁsa: "He works so hard for his money, but not his life can he save."

Prabhupāda: No, what he will do with the money? He will satisfy his senses, that's all.

Paramahaṁsa: So he sells his life.

Prabhupāda: So he's servant of the senses.

Umāpati: He sells his energy...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Umāpati: Kṛṣṇa's energy that is in him, māyā's energy.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...transmigration of soul. Suppose this time I am very great scientist, and next life I become a tree like this. What is my advancement? Stand up for ten thousand years. What is the advancement?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Going backwards.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Going to hell, that's all. You are trying to be naked; nature will say, "Yes, you stand here naked for ten thousand years." Yes. That is the punishment for being naked. Human life is not meant for becoming naked. That is according to Vedic civilization a great sin. You see. So their, their propensity they are increasing to become naked like our George... What's his name? Lennon, Lennon. So next time he is going to be tree, stand up. Otherwise wherefrom the trees come? They cannot explain. You become tree. That's all. Just like the Nalakūvara; they were taking bath naked without caring for Nārada. All right, you become naked for one hundred years.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among the trees also, there are different grades of trees, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?

Umāpati: Uncontrollable tongue.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now what is that bird who is killed in Christmas?

Devotees: Turkey.

Prabhupāda: Turkey, you see. Now, Christmas, God's Christmas, Jesus Christ. He said, "Thou shalt not kill." But his birthday is observed by killing, killing, killing, killing, killing.

 

Room Conversation                                         July 11, 1973, London                                                            349423

Father Tanner: But there must, in your self, there must be times when you're angry, times when you're...

Prabhupāda: I can become angry for God.

Father Tanner: Times when you're proud, times when you're humble.

Prabhupāda: For God's sake... Suppose you are serving some master. For the master's satisfaction, you sometimes become angry.

Father Tanner: Hm, but I think what Susan was saying is that our personality...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm... First of all, if you keep your identity fixed-up, even if you become angry, it is not bad.

Father Tanner: No. But you can become it... what, you know, we are saying is...

Prabhupāda: Suppose just like I tell you that a dog is your servant. It is standing on the door. Some thief is coming. If the dog becomes angry, "Baw! Gaw! Gow!" so that, to become angry is not bad for the dog...

Father Tanner: No.

Prabhupāda: ...because he's serving the master. So similarly, if you are fixed-up in your business as servant of the Lord, so even if you become angry for Lord's service, that is not bad.

Father Tanner: But you..., the dog might bite his master.

Prabhupāda: No.

Father Tanner: Yes, he can.

Prabhupāda: I don't think a... Anyway, that is dog. I... That's a crude example. But a spirit soul, when he's fixed-up in the service of the Lord, he does not bite his master. (laughter) He does not... He only serves. So we must know, if I actually love myself, first of all I know what I am. If I know, then I can properly love myself. If I do not know

 

Room Conversation(2)                                     July 11, 1973, London                                                           348063

Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join.

Guest (2): This is the fact here, see.

Prabhupāda: And the world religion... The Ratha-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there?

Guest (1): No, I was not.

Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam. And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that...

Devotee: Several pictures...

Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha-yātrā is rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. (Hindi) (break)

 

Room Conversation(6)                                    July 11, 1973, London                                                            349019

Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that?

Prabhupāda: Öhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Öhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?

Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have also known?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: No?

Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still don't know really anything.

Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say, in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him. "Get up, get up! You have got this engagement. You have..." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them: "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta-varān nibodhata. "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say... So many things... There are other senses. There will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated. It doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing.

Guest (1): You teach your children, don't you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, all my disciples, they're taught.

Guest (1): No, I didn't mean disciples. I meant children, little ones.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. We have got children's school also.

Guest (1): They understand, do they not?

Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Because hearing is there. Everyone, even a child, after hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he claps, he dances, he joins. That is practical. We have seen. Small child, say, four, five months old, on the lap of the mother, he's also moving, clapping. So this, this is also yoga system, bhakti-yoga. So it is so practical that even a small child can take part in it, without any advanced knowledge. Universal. Universal. Even dogs sometimes, they take part. We have got practical experience. They don't like to leave us. Yes, I have seen.

Devotee: I have too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They like this chanting and dancing. So we are, our business is to awake the sleeping man. Sleeping man means when you sleep you have no knowledge. If somebody kills you, you cannot protect yourself. Sleeping, that is sleeping stage, that we do not know what is happening. That is called sleeping stage. Even if you are so-called awakened, if you do not know the value of life, that is sleeping stage. That is sleeping stage. So in that sleeping stage, we are trying to awake the human society. A man, a human being, may be materially very qualified, but he does not know what is the value of human life, he's sleeping. He's sleeping. Can you distinguish...? You are all educationists. What is the difference between a human being and an animal?

Guest (1): Higher intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Higher intelligence, I think.

Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence?

Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that "If somebody, outsider comes, you bark," he'll do it.

Guest (2): The consciousness is...

Prabhupāda: And so... Real intelligence is that to know "what I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake... So many things. So nobody wants to die. But death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made. What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there. Three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pains. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects. They give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's... All of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like, all, in India there is drought. They are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, sufferings going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra--means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati. Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go. "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancies." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food." Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut!" This is the position. Therefore in this age kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. There are some vaiśyas. And all śūdras. Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big... What is that? Śūdras. They are creating śūdras. "People should be dependent." Unless you work... Therefore people are going fifty miles away, going... I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side... What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Connecticut

Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island?

Haṁsadūta: Staten Island.

Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed: the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra, just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

Guest (1): I couldn't follow you.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): I haven't followed you.

Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not, no intelligence?

Guest (1): I think you're right.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter)

Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts must be really not worth very much.

Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Guest (1): How can we in a money-orientated world?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent?

Guest (1): In a money-orientated world?

Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence.

Guest (1): No, I know.

Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent.

Guest (1): No, I understand that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money, if you become independent, that is intelligence.

Śrutakīrti: That was her question.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll...

Guest (1): But how do you, what I mean is how do you, how can you...

Prabhupāda: That "how to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,

yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ

manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ

yasmin sthito na duḥkhena

guruṇāpi vicālyate

Yaṁ labdhvā. You get something, which getting, you will be satisfied: "I don't want anything more." That is highest gain. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Cāparam. Another kind of benefit is not required. So yasmin sthitaḥ. If we remain in that position, then even there is hardest difficulty of life, he'll not be disturbed. (pause) Where is Paṇòitjī?

Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask.

Guest (1): Just, just how...?

Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process.

Guest (1): That is the end product.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You learn... We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can, you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. But we eat also, nicely.

Guest (2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factory, you wouldn't, would you?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running.

Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered, that "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside.

Haṁsadūta: Ninety-nine.

Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything. Even they live with a wife, children. So we,... Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that we are simply sannyāsī, brahmacārī. There are gṛhasthas, householders, husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is...

Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is...?

Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise how you can learn? In a moment? Such a big subject matter?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are going to solve all the problems of life. Such a nice proposal. Don't you think it requires little patience to understand how to do it?

Guest (1): It requires a little bravery.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): It requires bravery too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got background, Kṛṣṇa, so bravery, personally we haven't got to practice. Just like a child is in the protection of an able father. He's happy. "Whatever happens, father will see." He's happy. He's confident. "My father is there; my mother is there. Who can do any harm to me?" He's confident.

Guest (1): There is so much that's wrong.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, God, He'll take care of you. He says in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Everything is there. And that you have to understand practically. (pause) You are all living in neighborhood, this village? No. You have come from distant place?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So whenever you find time, you can come, or, if you like, you can live with us. We have got ample place. Girls and ladies, they live separately. Boys and gentlemen, they live separately. Those who are married, we have got apartments for householders. And gradually, we are improving, I mean to say, arranging further facilities. First of all you try to attend our class in the morning and inquire all about your doubts. Have some clear idea what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Read our literatures as far as possible. You have taken some book, I see, I saw. And if you agree to this principle, we take charge of you. You haven't got any botheration, how you'll get prasāda. We shall arrange for that...

Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another?

Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose... Just like... I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you, that "You have to go there. Just get up! Get up!" So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a, what is a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. Because we are part and parcel of... Just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody's giving information that "I know you are such and such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business. So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion. It is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are giving the right information, how human being can be really happy. This is end. It is not a religious sentiment. Religion means kind of faith. Today I am Hindu; tomorrow I am Christian; next day I am Mohammedan. What benefit I may get by changing so-called faith? Unless I understand what is my constitutional position, why I am suffering, how to get out of it? That is real life. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. It is not a sentimental religious faith. It is not like that. It is absolutely necessary for the human being. We are talking of human being because without being a human being, nobody will be able... The cats and dogs, they will not be able to understand the problem. In the human form of life, you can make solution of all the problems of life. It is a science, how to make that solution. That we are teaching. We are not talking of religion. Religion... Somebody will say, "I believe," "We believe..." Another will, "We believe..." You believe, if it is not a fact, what is the use of such believing? We are dealing with facts, not the question of believing and not believing. Facts are facts. If you don't take facts, then you are missing the opportunity. (pause) You have got some visitors' book? To...?

 

Room Conversation                                       July 12, 1973, London                                                              349980

Prabhupāda: You just work little, produce your food, eat, and save time, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the nature's arrangement. Anywhere, any part of the world, you can produce your food. Simply you require a little land and some cows. Everything is complete. You take milk from the cows and just till the field and get some food grains. That is sufficient. Whole economic question solved. And save time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the arrangement.

David Lawrence: It was interesting to see a recent television program in this country...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Lawrence: ...on farming, and it was talking about the so-called modern methods of farming which have destroyed the earth in this country, really, in great areas. And it showed an Englishman and his son who believe in the old methods with cows on the land. And he is not only doing better economically, but he was so happy, the two men were so happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Lawrence: They were just working with nature, not against nature.

Prabhupāda: Just like so much field is there. You, if you take the all village people, you can produce enough food for them in this village. So much land is lying there. Simply you keep cows and till ground, get your food grains. Enough. And if you take the whole planet as it is, you can feed ten times population. There is so much prospect. Australia, Africa. So much vacant land. You can produce enough quantity of milk and food grains.

David Lawrence: Yes, I think this was the clinching argument in this program...

Prabhupāda: But they are doing... What they are doing? They're taking the milk and slaughtering the animals and sending to foreign countries for trade. New Zealand, Australia, they are doing like that. Just see.

David Lawrence: Or they're throwing down the surplus milk down coal mines.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

David Lawrence: They throw surplus milk down coal mines.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

David Lawrence: When there are people without any...

Prabhupāda: How they are wasting! You see? And they're putting the overstocked grain into the sea. America.

David Lawrence: Dumping tomatos, bananas, all these things.

Prabhupāda: What kind of civilization? And producing Nixon on the head. (laughter.) Just see.

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And they want to be happy. This is their position.

David Lawrence: They'll give...

Prabhupāda: The head of the administration is Nixon, and the activities is killing and throwing the grains in the sea. And they are civilized. Just see. Where is civilization? They have no common sense even.

David Lawrence: The thing is the economic system now runs the heart. The heart is not allowed to beat in the right way. It's completely controlled.

Prabhupāda: It is a soul-killing civilization. We have to fight against it, to save at least a few men. So you are thoughtful young man. You try to understand this philosophy, and you try to spread. You have got good field for teaching students.

David Lawrence: I feel that students need to be able to see that somebody who is God conscious can really, really enjoy life.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Certainly. That is life. This is not life. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Life means with high qualities. So one who is not God conscious, they cannot have any good qualities. It is not possible. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. He's simply hovering on the mental plane. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. And he has to come to these non-permanent things, material things. Asati. Asati mā sad gama. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't stick to this asat. Try to come to the sat, eternal." Tamasi mā jyotir gama. These are the... "Don't remain in the darkness. Come to the light."

 

At the present moment, the cows are very unhappy. I have seen. They are almost crying. Because they can understand that "After some time, we'll be killed."

 

…so during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time, the cows were happy… There was regular rainfall and ample production of food grains, other things also...

 

 In this way, the whole society becomes happy...

 

Then the whole history of the world will change...There must be ample production of food grains and milk product. Then the whole economic problem solved.

 

And the formula is there…

 

We must be serious to accept this formula for practical application.

 

 

Yes, yes. Yes, that is my ambition, that let the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā be practically accepted by the human society, and surely they'll be happy. Surely.

 

So actually, India's position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it.

 

...(not) satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization.

 

 

Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city.

 

One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God…You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand… So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. 

 

So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God.

 

All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king.

 

No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view.

No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he'll manage, he'll manage. But if he's not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn't matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man.

 

If you understand only God, then you understand everything. But if he does not understand everything rightly, that means he's not fully understanding God.

 

Real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question.

 

This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis.

 

What your tractors and so many agricultural machines will help?

 

Just see the māyā's influence, that: "We are working, getting money, and importing grains." Why not work and grow grains?

 

Yes, if we accept that Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of everything, then it becomes one state, as it was formerly, five thousand years ago.

 

First, first of all, you take care of yourself. Then you think of others.

 

So when he's perfectly in peaceful condition of life, he can save time for advancement in spiritual consciousness.

 

So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...

 

Therefore this movement is the most important movement. For giving direction, we don't charge, and by following our direction, they don't lose anything. So why not make an experiment and see the result? The result is already there. Any intelligent man can see. It is not bluff…

If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We must be serious to accept this formula for practical application.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME FIVE

Room Conversation                                         July 18, London, 1973                                                            350135

Prabhupāda: No, education is different. Education may be wrong or right, but science is always the fact. "Two plus two equal to four,"--that is equally good in the East and West, not that in the western countries, two plus two will be five. So similarly, any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West understanding. It is good for everywhere. Similarly, to understand the science of God, it does not depend on the Western culture or Eastern culture. One must be serious to understand. Then it is equally available. Ahaituky apratihatā. These material impediments cannot check progress in the science of God, cannot. Apratihatā, without any checking. That we are experiencing, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not checked anywhere. We have got branches all over the world. Any country, there is no language difficulty. Wherever we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no checking. Even Africa, they are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even the child will chant. They clap. You have seen that a small child is...? I think he..., about six months old. So there is no checking. For spiritual understanding there is no checking. The child, six months' old child, clapping, that means he's joining with the system. He's not sophisticated. He's new child, but automatically... So there is no checking. (pause)

Śyāmasundara: If the science is available to everyone without impediment, then there must be the proper teacher, isn't it? There must be a teacher of the science...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...where people learn. That has been a difficulty here. There's been no real teachers until...

Prabhupāda: No, everyone gives his own opinion. Everyone will say... He'll not dare to say that he's speaking right, scientifically. He'll say, "It is my opinion." To avoid any difficulty, he'll say, "In my opinion it is this." I think he's speaking of that, (that) there are so many people, and they have got so many opinions.

Śyāmasundara: How do we know, then, what is the real fact?

Prabhupāda: We have to understand it from a real man who knows it. Upadekṣyanti te jïānaṁ jïāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Find out that. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. So we have to approach the real person who has seen. Then you'll get the right goal of life.

Pradyumna:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jïānaṁ

jïāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

Prabhupāda: So we have to approach a person who has seen the truth. It is not difficult. Just like if you are suffering from some disease, you have to go to a doctor who knows how to treat. It is same thing, like that.

Śyāmasundara: How do we know he's a good doctor or not? By his credential or...?

Prabhupāda: No. That also... Therefore it is called sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Three things there are for knowledge. Sādhu, saintly person; śāstra, scripture; and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether śāstra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sādhu. Similarly sādhu also, whether guru says, "Yes, he is sādhu." Whether śāstra says, "Yes, he is sādhu." There are three things, sādhu-śāstra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way. Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the śāstras. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Śāstra says, tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. "He's well-versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that here is a medical practitioner? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out?

Śyāmasundara: Some friend, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have to take information. Similarly, guru, according to śāstra, who is guru, he must be confirmed by sādhu, saintly person, by śāstra. Then he's guru. Sadhu-śāstra, guru-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya.

Haṁsadūta: What's the difference between a sādhu and a guru? Sadhu means authorities like Vyāsa?

Prabhupāda: Guru... He must be a sādhu.

Haṁsadūta: It means the previous ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: A sādhu means titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva-dehinām, ajāta-śatravaḥ śāntāḥ sādhavaḥ sādhu-bhūṣaṇāḥ. Everything, there is definition, who is sādhu, who is guru.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...what is śāstra. Everything is there. You have to know it. What is avatāra. That is my business, how to know. But there is, everything's there. What... Everyone can know it. Sādhavaḥ, sādhu. Sum and substance of sādhu means devotee. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. "He's sādhu." Who? Ananya-bhāk: "Without any diversion of attention, he's completely engaged in My devotional service... Even if he has got some minor defects, still, because he is completely surrendered and engaged in My service, he's sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. So this is the test of sādhu. Sādhu means he must be a devotee. Sādhu does not mean having saffron color and long beard and doing all nonsense. No. Sādhu means... First test is that he is unflinching, without any deviation. Api cet sudurā..., bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Ananya-bhāk means he does not know anything except the service of the Lord. That is the qualification of sādhu. So similarly, in other places also, the definition of sādhu is there. Sādhu means titikṣavaḥ: he's very tolerant because a sādhu has to face so many opposing elements and sometimes very offensive, but he has to tolerate. Titikṣavaḥ. At the same time, kāruṇikāḥ, very merciful. The same man who is torturing him, torturing him, he is trying to convince him about Kṛṣṇa. That means very merciful. He's not rejecting. Although he's torturing him, but he's trying to convince him, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore kāruṇikāḥ. And he is not friend of any particular society or man. Suhṛdaḥ sarva-dehinām. He is well-wisher of all living entities. It doesn't matter whether he's Indian, American, or black and white. No, no conception. Or even human being or animal. He is kind to everyone, friend, well-wisher of everyone. Ajāta-śatravaḥ. He does not create any enemies. Such... These are the qualifications of sādhu. Śāstra means the transcendental literature, not ordinary writings. That is śāstra. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is śāstra, Veda is śāstra, or Bible, śāstra. Scripture means given by God or His authorized representative. That is śāstra. So sādhu-śāstra-guru. And guru means who is completely devotee of Kṛṣṇa without any material motives. This is sādhu-śāstra-guru. Anyābhilāṣitāśūnyaṁ jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. (baby crying in background)

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that, you were lecturing that, that unless one performs the proper saṁskāras for the children, they will become degraded. They will not follow the regulative principles and such... They become unwanted population?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world we have got so many obligations.

Paramahaṁsa: For example, in devotee families, if we perform the proper principles in raising children...

Prabhupāda: No, your, your, your function is very simple. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and train your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.

Paramahaṁsa: But there's always a chance that they may not as well.

Prabhupāda: That chance is also to you also. Māyā is always there. But our duty should be like that. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and raise your children to that standard. (indistinct) Just like we are teaching in Dallas. There is nothing extraordinary. The children are there, they're learning how to read, how to write, at the same time rising early in the morning, attending maìgala-ārātrika, joining in the saìkīrtana, playing mṛdaìga, dancing, taking prasādam. (Aside:) That's all right. By such training, automatically they'll be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then all your duties are complete. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then all your duty is finished.

Malcolm: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious without believing yourself?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious if you yourself don't believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: If you do not believe, if the father does not believe? You mean to say?

Malcolm: If the father does not feel.

Prabhupāda: Yes well, everything is individual. Father is individual and child is individual. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu.

Malcolm: Can a father impose on a child, something which he does not believe himself.

Prabhupāda: No Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental position. Once one gets a little touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he'll make progress. Just like the wick in a firework. Firework, a big, what is called? Pottatter?

Haṁsadūta: Firecracker.

Prabhupāda: Crack. The long wick, you just set fire: (makes sound:) tille, tille, tille, tille, tille, and when it comes: tung! (laughter) It is like that. You just set up the fire and then one day he'll become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Room Conversation                                        July 19, 1973, London                                                             350263

Prabhupāda: Hm. Watseka. And that is Venice. On Venice we have got two house. The real estate men, they think of us--very, very rich. (laughs) After purchasing these houses. Here also, we can have very nice colony, in this village. There are so many land, houses are for sale. If we can organize. Now you utilize these lands for growing fruit, flower, anything, whatever you can grow. But utilize this land. It doesn't matter what you would grow, anything. Who will be in charge?

 

Room Conversation                                        July 22, 1973,  London.                                                           350452

Prabhupada: So Bhagavad-gita recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then, by God's arrangement, by nature's arrangement, all the necessities of the living entities, they will be supplied. They will be free from all anxieties, diseases. This was practically demonstrated during the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. I, I wish to quote some passages from... during the reign of...

Pradyumna: Start with number one?

śaunaka uvāca

hatvā svariktha-spṛdha ātatāyino

yudhiṣṭhiro dharma-bhṛtāṁ variṣṭhaḥ

sahānujaiḥ pratyavaruddha-bhojanaḥ

kathaṁ pravṛttaḥ kim akāraṣīt tataḥ

Prabhupāda: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, after the Battle of Kurukṣetra, all the five brothers, they were almost fasting, as, what is called, atonement for so many people killed for their sake. Then, under the instruction of elderly persons, Bhīṣma and Kṛṣṇa, he accepted the ruling power, governmental, and during his time... You read that, kāmaṁ vavarṣa...

Pradyumna: It says,

kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ

sarva-kāma-dughā mahī

siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ

payasodhasvatīr mudā

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Pradyumna: "Translation. During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: This was the position of the kingdom, that the cows felt secure. At the present moment, the cows are very unhappy. I have seen. They are almost crying. Because they can understand that "After some time, we'll be killed."

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: They can understand that. So during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time, the cows were happy, and because they were happy, they were producing so much milk that when they were on the pasturing ground, the pasturing ground became moist with milk. Milk was dropping. So much milk supply. And kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ: There was regular rainfall and ample production of food grains, other things also. Just like jewelry, they are also produced by the rainfall and certain constellation of the stars. That we understand from the astrological books.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they produce these stones also, mean puṣyanna-kṣatra. So therefore it is said that kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. And this parjanyaḥ, or the rainfall, is made possible by performing sacrifices. You read that portion, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ.

Pradyumna: This is from Bhagavad-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Annād bhavanti bhūtāni means by eating sufficiently, the living entities, they grow, they become strong, both animals and human beings. Then?

Pradyumna: Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: And the anna, these grains, they are produced from parjanyaḥ, from clouds. Now? Next?

Pradyumna: Yajïād bhavati parjanyo...

Prabhupāda: And yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. And when we regularly perform yajïa, then there is regular cloud in the sky. And when there is cloud in the sky, there is regular rainfall, and when there is regular rainfall, there is sufficient production of food grains, fruits and other vegetables so that both the animal and the human beings, they eat sufficiently, they grow strength, they become happy and again perform yajïa. And the animals supply, the cow supplies milk. , given by the Vedic literature. So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article "The Great Seers," so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. In this way, the whole society becomes happy. These are the prescriptions, or directions.But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development... Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians. If you take this instruction of the Vedas little seriously, you can make your state an ideal state, and people are still ready to follow you. Then the whole history of the world will change. And if you people agree, then I can help you. I can help.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause)

Prabhupāda: There must be ample production of food grains and milk product. Then the whole economic problem solved. And the formula is there. How to get ample agricultural production and milk, everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And the examples of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, that is also there. But one... We must be serious to accept this formula for practical application.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. You would apply the teachings of the Gītā to all human societies at all times. Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes, that is my ambition, that let the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā be practically accepted by the human society, and surely they'll be happy. Surely. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glanīr bhavati bhārata. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So now everything is confused. And in your country, or western countries, they are very organized. So you are not feeling now so much confusion. But it is coming. But in India and countries like that, it is very confusion state. Yes. They have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western type of civilization. So they are lost. They are lost.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: In India is everybody lost, the Indian culture...?

Prabhupāda: No, not everybody.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Not everybody. But general mass of people, at least, the so-called educated, five to ten percent people, they are lost.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And so-called educated, they practically guide. You'll be surprised to know that in 1950, one of my students, he was a government statistics officer. So he went to some village, and he gave me report that the villagers inquired from him that "Babuji, agar angarej ko vote diya yai pasatela (?)"

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? No.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, I don't. No, no, no.

Prabhupāda: No. The inquiry was that "If we again give votes to the Englishmen, will they come and do." (laughs)

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Öhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. But the people who rule India now have a western education mostly. The Indians who...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perverted, converted. Just like Nehru. Nehru was western-educated. He was educated in London. But he hated everything Indian.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the res... Formerly, in our childhood we saw that any gentleman coming here in London and goes back to India, he no more mixes with the Indian soil. He... They were called "England-returned." So they made their own society. Then our Ram Mohan Raya, he formed a Brahmo Society. And so many things changed. Again, they are now topsy-turvied. So actually, India's position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it.

                                                                                                                                                                        350560

Prabhupāda: This material world is based on jealousy. And spiritual world is based on friendship. That is the difference. So the, these materialistic persons, United Nations, League of Nations, they are trying to unite, but they, at heart, there is jealousy. So they can never become united. This is only bogus farce.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They cannot be united because at heart there is jealousy. They go to the United Nations assembly. So one man is speaking with jealousy for the other. The other man is speaking (laughs) with jealous... So how they can be united? It is not possible.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Yes. No.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, they should adopt this Kṛṣṇa conscious platform. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstava vastu vedyaṁ atra. So it is a very scientific movement. I would like that persons like you, you should take some little active part to push on this movement. (pause)

                                                                                                                                                                        350654                                                                                                                                   

Prabhupāda: No, they... So far our Mahābhārata is concerned, we understand that the Greek people came from India.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Originally.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There's that famous... (break)

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is also now divided.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Also Indonesia, and they're... On the surface they're Muslims but underneath they're Hindu, there's been...

Prabhupāda: I have been in Indonesia.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: You've also... Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their culture is Hindu culture. But by religion they have accepted Muslim. They still, their names are Hindu names.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Names are Hindu. There Garuòa, Garuòa. The airway is Garuòa. Garuòa is the carrier of Viṣṇu.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I've seen their shadow plays, and all the subjects and the heroes are from the Indian history, the Indian epics, not from Muslim. So...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They all have two names. They have a Sanskrit name and an Arabic name, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I've also been in ...

Prabhupāda: And Java. Java, they are Hindus. Still. In Indonesia also, there are many Hindus. They have got their Vedic way of worship. They accept Viṣṇu.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You were with me in Indonesia?

Devotee: No.

                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                        350674

Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is your view of the future, the history, the future history?

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is there, described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The, the governmental power will go to the rascals and thieves, rogues. And their only business will be how to exploit the people. So one side, by not sufficient rain, there will be scarcity of foodstuff, and one side, the government will tax like anything. In this way, people will be so much harassed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This will be done in Kali-yuga. And gradually, there will be no supply of grains. Especially rice, wheat, sugar, milk, these things will be finished. So people will be obliged to take flesh. These are all stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Śyāmasundara: In that case, is there any hope in a movement like ours to rectify the situation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If they take to Kṛṣṇa co... That is also stated, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. Kīrtanād, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can become free from all these calamities and go back to home, back to Godhead. Only Kṛṣṇa conscious people will be free from all these calamities. Others will have to suffer.

Śyāmasundara: So societies in general will not improve, but more people...

Prabhupāda: Improve... Major portion is stated like that. But there is always light and darkness. Always. So the light party will be also there. This is the only, that take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. Doṣa-nidhi. Nidhi means ocean, and doṣa means faults. But there is one opportunity. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. Very great profit. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's name and becoming Kṛṣṇa con..., one shall be freed from all these calamities and he'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by this. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. This very word is used. Mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. So this is the only shelter. If people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be saved from all the calamities of this age. Otherwise, there is no other... Now they are going to the forest, the hippies. Eh? Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. Giri-kānanam means to the forests, to the hills. They'll go. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇām. Dāra means wife, and draviṇā means money. So they'll be separated from wife and money, and they'll go to the forest and hills, being disappointed. This is happening already. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam.

Śyāmasundara: Does this correspond, Mr. Toynbee, with your view of the future history?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the future history. You can predict in your writings. Yes.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: With more people in politics in India, are they able to keep the Vedic ideal? Or...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have given up.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.

Prabhupāda: The politicians, they (say that) "These books are useless. Throw them in the water." They say like that publicly. They are not interested. Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're... They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Kṛṣṇa to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will increase. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Ten thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Within ten thousand years, if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand. Char-lakh murti saja. (?) Yes.

 

Room Conversation                                         July 23, 1973, London                                                            350814

Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled...

 

So we are trying in our small endeavor. But if leading personalities like you of the society, they try to understand this philosophy scientifically, critically, and take it seriously, they can, there will be great benefit for the human society. The program we have got, but we are not leading personalities. You are all leading personalities. At least in England. Lord... This group, House of Lords is there. It was always there. In previous days also. They were called amātyas. All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king. And brāhmaṇas also. I think the knighthood means that. What is the meaning of this knighthood? Eh? Personal advisors to the king?

Lord Brockway: Not necessarily to the king. It's a recognition of some service to society, but it doesn't mean any close association with the monarch.

350944

Prabhupāda: No, democracy we don't approve.

Lord Brockway: We don't...?

Śyāmasundara: Approve.

Lord Brockway: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: Approve.

Lord Brockway: Of what?

Śyāmasundara: Democracy we don't approve.

Lord Brockway: Oh, I approve of it very, very strongly. Very strongly. It must be... It must be the basis of all, of all good.

Prabhupāda: No, basis... Now, suppose if a people in general, they are not advanced, by their votes, somebody is elected, he may not be also advanced. That is the defect of democracy. Mass of people, they are not advanced. So simply by their vote, if somebody is elected, then they will have to repent. Just like Nixon. He's elected, but these people are again decrying him, that "No, you are not good." So why do you, did you elect him? You elect, and again you reject. That is the defect of democracy. that people are not advanced. They can commit mistake, elect somebody wrong. And then they will lament. This is the defect. But monarchy, as it was approved by the Vedic culture, the monarchy, if the king is first-class, God conscious... A king should be like that. That is the ideal king. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā: rājarṣi. The king should be just like saintly person, although he's king. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. And just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was rājarṣi. All the kings in those days, they were trained up in such a way that they were saintly persons, although they were the king. Not debauch. So one person, if he's authorized... Just like the communists, they are thinking of dictatorship. This is also another kind of dictatorship. But if the dictator, or the king, is a perfect man, then his dictatorship or royal power is quite... But that, that is not possible at the present moment. But at the present moment, the democracy is also not perfect. Because the mass of people, they have no perfect knowledge. By sentiment. So it may be they're electing a wrong person. That is the defect of democracy.

Lord Brockway: No, I'm not saying that democracy as we have it is perfect. I am saying that a people will advance only as it is a reflection of the progress of the people themselves, and that they, and that they cannot be changed by an external pressure...

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Lord Brockway: ...which is dictatorship. And even...

Prabhupāda: No, dictatorship, I told you...

Lord Brockway: And even a, a good dictatorship is a bad thing. I would rather have...

Prabhupāda: No, how good dictatorship can be a bad thing?

Lord Brockway: I would rather have people make mistakes when they had self-government than if you had a dictatorship which didn't make mistakes and imposed it's own...

Prabhupāda: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view.

Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the...

Prabhupāda: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he'll manage, he'll manage. But if he's not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn't matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man.

 

Prabhupāda: Because people are godless at the present moment, they're suffering.

Lord Brockway: It's not only because of that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Lord Brockway: It's not only...

Prabhupāda: That is the only cause.

Lord Brockway: No...,

Prabhupāda: That we can, that we can give very scientific evidence. That is the only cause.

Lord Brockway: No, it's not the only cause.

Prabhupāda: No, that we have to understand.

Lord Brockway: No, please. I know, I know of people who are very God conscious, beautiful people, kind in all their human relations, but they haven't got a beginning of an understanding of how one can bring brotherhood and peace to the world.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Then...

Lord Brockway: And therefore, in addition to God consciousness, you must have understanding, knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that understanding, that required. So that is needed. People have no opportunity to understand. Just like if you speak...

Lord Brockway: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...they'll talk of universal brotherhood, but they'll send the poor animals to the slaughterhouse.

Lord Brockway: They...?

Prabhupāda: To the slaughterhouse.

Śyāmasundara: Animals.

Prabhupāda: Animals.

Lord Brockway: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no right understanding of universal brotherhood.

Lord Brockway: No. With that I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of talking of universal brotherhood when you actually do not treat like that?

Lord Brockway: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But that is due to his lack of God consciousness. He'll talk very high words, but practically he cannot do it.

Śyāmasundara: No information.

Prabhupāda: Yes, no information. Just like the commu... Even in communist country. They, they are thinking that national, everything should be national. So what is the meaning of national? Means any living entity born in that country is national. So why the poor animals are not nationals? That is, means lack of God consciousness. He does not know. He thinks simply human being national.

Lord Brockway: Oh, I agree. I'm a vegetarian.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this is all due to lack of God consciousness. Therefore the only remedy is to make people God conscious, thoroughly, perfectly. Then everything will be all right.

Lord Brockway: That I don't accept. God consciousness plus understanding.

Prabhupāda: Now, God conscious means understanding. Without understanding, how there can be God consciousness?

Lord Brockway: And you, you may easily have a person who is very God conscious, beautiful in their own lives, beautiful to all the group around them, who have no understanding of the problems of the world at all.

Prabhupāda: That is not perfect God conscious. That is partial. Perfect consciousness means full understanding also. That is perfect God consciousness. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. This is the Vedic injunction. If you understand only God, then you understand everything. But if he does not understand everything rightly, that means he's not fully understanding God. This is the... If, as you say, that a man is fully God conscious, but he cannot do this, cannot do that, that means his understanding of God consciousness is still lacking. It is not full understanding. A full understanding of God consciousness means he's a perfect man. He's a perfect man. He'll never commit anything mistake. Because he's guided. Teṣām... What is that? Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam... Find out. A God conscious person is getting direct instruction from God. How it can be defective? It cannot be. Practical. But if one is defective, he's not yet fully God conscious.

Devotee: Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ...

Prabhupāda: Ah!

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

Pradyumna: Ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ paryupāsate...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing.

Pradyumna: Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktā...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-... That is Tenth Chapter.

Pradyumna:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

"To those who are constantly devoted and who worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."

Prabhupāda: So if he gets understanding from God, how there can be any defect? If he's not getting direct understanding from God, that means he's still imperfect.

 

Garden Conversation                                    July 25, 1973, London                                                              351623

Prabhupāda: ...satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization.

Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Mother: Everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere.

Mother: What about India? I mean, do they believe, the villagers?

Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so.

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To get more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering... They are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollars." Although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollars? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society.

Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you.

Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city.

Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who..., be able to tell people who...

Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling.

Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating...

Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way.

Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world.

Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God.

                                                                                                                                     

 

                                                                                                                                                                        351675

Prabhupāda: That's... For translating of books it does not require... Of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise,... Real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question.

 

Room Conversation                                        July 26, 1973, London                                                             352219

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni, the Sanskrit word is muni. Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of, "Crisis of Increasing Motor Cars," in this paper. Actually, we are creating a crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung: sat-saìga chāòi kainu asatye vilāsa. Sat-saìga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa, we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saìga chāòi kainu... There are two things, material and spiritual. So sat-saìga chāòi kainu asatye... "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma-bandha-phāìsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motor Car Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading.

Revatīnandana: Was it this one?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motor Car Crisis"?

Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location.

Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. It was in one of the eight magazines, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here.

Popworth: The one on Buddhist economics.

Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence."

Popworth: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Hm. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit, another side, we make pollution. This is the material, result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, it is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you... That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Popworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that?

Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking.

Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he became perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it. But we say, purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible.

Popworth: It's possible to what?

Prabhupāda: Purify.

Popworth: Purify the pollution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Popworth: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. So everything should be done--that is called karma-yoga--in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized: bhakto 'si priyo 'si. "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go, we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it.

                                                                                                                                                                        352301

Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇòita. Cāṇakya Paṇòita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇòita says,

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇòitaḥ

Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected. It doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor... So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore we expect.

 

Room Conversation                                      August 10, 1973, Paris                                                              353185

Prabhupāda: ...desert in India, is expanding. It is coming near to Mathurā and Vṛndāvana. So everyone is concerned.

Bhagavān: The desert is expanding because it's...

Prabhupāda: Desert expands. As everything expands and diminishes, desert also... That is nature's course. Desert means less production. So na..., if nature wants, she can make the whole world desert. What your tractors and so many agricultural machines will help? It will turn into desert. There will be no rain. What you can do? And still you are very proud of your scientific advancement. You cannot struggle with nature.

353209

Prabhupāda: And lots of land is lying in our Letchmore Heath. They won't work for producing food. That land is kept for keeping cows for killing them. And for their food, they are working underneath the ground, and whatever money they get, they import grains. Just see the māyā's influence, that: "We are working, getting money, and importing grains." Why not work and grow grains? Now he's thinking that: "I'll get more money underground, than by cultivating on the surface." This is māyā. He's working very hard. Still, he's thinking it is better happiness. "I haven't to work on the surface. I am working underground. Therefore I am happy." This is māyā. He'll prefer that kind of work. But he won't agree to grow food on the surface of the country.

Bhagavān: That's because in America, for example, the government will pay so much money. They will pay you more than if you grow so many fields of...

Prabhupāda: No, it is my experience. I have seen practically all parts of the world. If we grow food, all countries, especially America, both North and South, whole America, whole Canada, whole Africa, whole Australia... They are not producing food. There is so much land. So if you combine together on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scarcity of food anywhere, in any part of the world.

Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, when we talk like this, is this to perhaps mean sometime in the future the movement will become so big that...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if we accept that Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of everything, then it becomes one state, as it was formerly, five thousand years ago.

Bhagavān: But to do that from the position the world is in today, it seems like it's so, it'd be almost, very difficult to come to that platform again, unless we...

Prabhupāda: It may be difficult, but the philosophy is there. Solution is there.

Bhagavān: That requires getting some kind of political position perhaps? At least, if not us, someone else adopting the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, appreciating them, or...

Prabhupāda: Now thing is that political consciousness... Just like Hitler planned, Napoleon planned. They also thought that: "If I can unite all these European states under my plan, under my 'ism,' they will be happy." That is the plan. He also thinks like that. But whether he is perfect? This Lenin, this Hitler, this Napoleon, whether they are perfect? So unless they are perfect, any such utopian planning will not help.

Bhagavān: But for our plan to be put into action on big scale, big people must accept, who, who are presently, who presently have power to control the state.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: So is this to say that we must...?

Prabhupāda: The big people are rogues. Just like yesterday we talked with the Cardinal. He is defending animal-killing. He's a rogue. Anyone who is killing animal, he's a rogue. But he is representing as big man, important man.

Bhagavān: So either they must accept our philosophy, or we must replace them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: That is...

Prabhupāda: First, first of all, you take care of yourself. Then you think of others. (break)

Devotee: ...hear from Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: How he claims to be the body?

Bhagavān: He says people say that there is consciousness in this body because there is the soul. Then at the end of the body, soul is finished, the body is finished. Everything finished.

Prabhupāda: Why soul is finished?

Bhagavān: Because they say the body is finished.

Prabhupāda: No body is finished. My childhood body is finished, but the soul is not finished.

Bhagavān: They will not listen logically. What can you do?

Prabhupāda: How it is? My childhood body, my babyhood body is finished. It is no longer existing. So how I am existing? Therefore his statement that body is finished and the soul is finished is wrong. We see practically. The body is finished, the soul is existing. This is practical. Why he's talking nonsense--"The body is finished, and the soul is finished." Where the soul is finished? I remember my childhood body. So I, I am existing, but my childhood body's finished. That is the fact. Therefore with the annihilation of the body, the soul does not annihilate. This is the conclusion.

Guru Gaurāìga: The baby body is finished. But soul is still there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru Gaurāìga: So when this body is finished, why shall the soul be gone?

Prabhupāda: Even the father, mother is not crying. The mother's baby dies. She cries, she becomes mad. But when the child gives up that childhood body, accept another body, she's happy because she knows: "My son is there. He has only changed the body." The mother knows. Mother is not crying: "Oh, where is my child gone, sir?" He knows that "My child is here. He has changed his body." These are the arguments. If the foolish rascal will not accept genuine arguments, logic, then how he can be convinced? He's a animal. The animals cannot be convinced. Any man with little brain substance, he'll understand this. Where is the difficulty? But it is useless to talk with animals. You cannot argue with dogs and hogs. That is not possible. So if their brain is doggish and hoggish, how you can convince them? But the logic is there, the argument is there.

Guru Gaurāìga: How is it they can see continuity between baby's body and young boy's body and young man's body, they say, "Oh, he's still here," but they can see no continuity between this body and...

Prabhupāda: That, that, he has no eyes. How I have got my continuity of my childhood thoughts and now also? Just like for a old man. He hasn't got so much sexual power, but the sex continuity is there. He wants to enjoy. Therefore he takes some medicine. He takes some injection. Why? The continuity. That means the continuity is mind. The gross body has changed. The mind is there, subtle. Intelligence is there. That is continuity. And that continuity, that subtle body, mind and intelligence, carry me to another body, as it is doing now. My gross body has changed, but mind and intelligence continuing. Similarly when this body will be completely finished, my mind and intelligence will carry me to another gross body. Then in the womb of my mother I shall grow another gross body. The mind and intelligence being continued. And I get a particular type of body on the condition of mind and intelligence at the time of death. Death means finishing this body. But the mind and intelligence is the same. As the air carries the flavor. This is the logic. Everything is...

Guru Gaurāìga: So is subtle body ever finished?

Prabhupāda: Subtle body can be finished when you are liberated from material bondage.

Guru Gaurāìga: Otherwise, it's the same subtle body...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Carry, carrying you, carrying you in different types of bodies, gross bodies.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                   August 10, 1973, Paris                                                             352935

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is artificial. That is artificial. We are not concerned with artificial things. Just like you require to eat. Now artificially you can increase so many things for eating purposes. But you must eat. That is the economic question. It is not that you should starve. It is not our proposal that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious by starving. No. You must have sufficient necessities of life.

Reporter: All right. So... The purpose for economic plan of all the planet, for the world would be everybody can eat, and I suppose just, just eating and some clothes and some roof to be, if you are in a cold country...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eating, sleeping... Sleeping requires roof, apartment. So it includes your housing, your eating, your sex urge, and your defence. Everything should be nicely... So arrangement should be made that people are not harassed for these necessities of life.

Reporter: And all the rest is superfluous. Is too much.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter: All the rest is superficial, is superficial.

Prabhupāda: What is superficial?

Devotee: Extra. Not needed.

Yogeśvara: Anything beyond these four basics is...

Prabhupāda: That is necessities of life. Because you have got this body, so you must supply the necessities of the body. That we supply. Not only that. We want to keep men in so peaceful condition that he's not disturbed by mental anxieties, bodily disease, natural disturbances and fighting or quarreling with other living entities. So when he's perfectly in peaceful condition of life, he can save time for advancement in spiritual consciousness.

Reporter: Sure, so...

Prabhupāda: But aim is that his life, everyone's life is meant for spiritual realization. So to, in order to achieve this end of life he must be kept in peaceful condition of life.

Yogeśvara: He asks: "In order to achieve these goals is it our intention to do like the Christians and make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?"

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: In order to achieve our goals, do we intend doing like the Christians tried to do, making everyone convert to their side. Is that what we want to do, make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? If Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good, why everyone should not take to it?

Yogeśvara: Ah. This is an important question. He says seeing the world as it is today, what is the most preferable social organization from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.

Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.

Bhagavān: Another question?

Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tommorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes.

Devotee: Here, it'll be.

Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct).

Bhagavān: As you like.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?

Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.

Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?

Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. (break) Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.

Bhagavān: It can be tested.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is the most important movement. For giving direction, we don't charge, and by following our direction, they don't lose anything. So why not make an experiment and see the result? The result is already there. Any intelligent man can see. It is not bluff.

Bhagavān: We are living, sixty, seventy people in this house, cooperatively, like this. That is a very great thing.

Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take?

Reporter: Oh, I don't trust. I could trust. Yeah. But...

Prabhupāda: Our socialistic idea, you can note down...

Reporter: I have nothing to lose but do you think you could manage all society very complex, as our...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: It's more than...

Prabhupāda: We can, we can make the society perfect if they take our advice. Because we are working as the brain.

Bhagavān: He can see Prabhupāda's books. Our philosophy is not small philosophy.

Reporter: Just a last question. Just... You were saying, minute before that the socialism, your socialism is that Kṛṣṇa is your Marx, sort of.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: Yeah. But... It will be my last question. What about you in that? Would you be, you are a spiritual chief. Would you be...?

Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief.

Reporter: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.

Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...

Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.

Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.

Reporter: I think, I think...

Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you.

Reporter: Yeah. Because I thought you know, it was just an idea of your... But I shall never think it was so, so much clear.

Yogeśvara: He never thought that our program was quite so detailed.

Prabhupāda: It is most scientific program.

Bhagavān: We have also economic position.

Prabhupāda: Everything, I have explained. Now our socialist idea is: God is the father of all living beings. And whatever there is on the surface of the globe, on the sea, on the sky, everything belongs to God. And all the sons of God has equal right to enjoy it. But nobody... (aside:) He is finished? But nobody is allowed to take more than he requires. If one takes more than he requires, he's to be punished. This is our socialist idea. As we think all living entities sons of God, therefore even a lizard in my room should not starve.

Bhagavān: He should not starve is the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: He should not be allowed to go hungry.

Prabhupāda: Even a snake is there, he should not also starve. He must have food. We do not support such rascal philosophy that you give food to the man, and send the animals to the slaughterhouse. We do not support this rascaldom, our philosophy is: as human being has got the right to take share of God's property and live, similarly all other living entities, they have got right.

Reporter: Have you a point of view about the demographic problem and the problem of (French)?

Yogeśvara: Do we have a viewpoint on contraception?

Prabhupāda: That is most sinful activity. Because a child is coming to live at the expense of God's property, and the rascal father is thinking of overpopulation.

Yogeśvara: Or, as Prabhupāda was saying, he's thinking there's overpopulation.

Reporter: (French)

Yogeśvara: But he says but this is a fact, this overpopulation.

Prabhupāda: That is another wrong impression. Foolish impression. The whole world has got sufficient place to produce food for ten times the population as it is now. The Americans, they throw grains in the water. So if they send the excess grain to the place where grain is not sufficient, then it is God conscious-ness. If the so-called overpopulation is spread all over the world, there is sufficient place in Africa, Australia, America. The overpopulation can grow their food in these vast uncultivated land.

Yogeśvara: He says that only resolves the problem for a few years.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We don't believe it. That is not...

Yogeśvara: Why. Why is it that this program...?

Prabhupāda: Why do they think that it is for few years?

Yogeśvara: He's thinking that the Earth is not capable of providing enough...

Prabhupāda: What does he know about Earth? His knowledge is not sufficient. He, he's speaking like a woman who saw in the marketplace in the morning thousands of people have gathered, and she began to cry: "Where I shall give place to these men?" So her son came: "My dear mother, don't cry. You come in the evening. We shall find some solution." So when she came in the evening, there was nobody.

 

Room Conversation                                        August 11, 1973, Paris                                                            353436

Yogeśvara: Is that buddhi, that intelligence manifested in some way, in his service, or in his thinking?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because the process is devotion, bhakti. Bhakti means not idle. Activities. Bhakti is not idle gossip. It is something, activity. Therefore karmīs sometimes misunderstand that they are working like us. So where is the... what does it mean, bhakti? Just like Arjuna is fighting. But ordinary man will see that he's a soldier, he's fighting. What is this bhakti? But Kṛṣṇa certifies: "Yes, you are My devotee." By fighting, he's devotee. Because he's fighting for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti. Similarly, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, whatever you do, that is bhakti. Karmīs cannot see. Karmīs see... (break) ...tiki, laukikī, vaidikī. Laukikī means material activities. And vaidikī means according to Vedic instruction. Whatever you do, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, then it is bhakti.

Yogeśvara: Laukikī and vaidi...?

Prabhupāda: Laukikī. Laukikī means ordinary, common activities. And vaidikī means Vedic. Just like a man is doing business as motorcars. So he has to do business as other motor car dealers do. So this is laukikī. It is not vaidikī. In vaidika instruction, there is no such thing, that "You do motor business like this." Therefore it is laukikī. So either laukikī or vaidikī, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, it is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa also says: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad... Yat karoṣi means whatever you do,... "Whatever" means the activity must be laukikī or vaidikī. "Whatever." There is no restriction, that only vaidikī. No. Even laukikī. Whatever you do. Find out this verse: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi tapasyasi yat.

Haṁsadūta:

yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi

yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat

yat tapasyasi kaunteya

tat kuruṣva mad arpaṇam

"O son of Kuntī, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform should be done as an offering unto Me."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Haṁsadūta: Purport: "This is the duty of everyone to mold his life in such a way that he will not forget Kṛṣṇa in any circumstance. Everyone has to work for maintenance of his body and soul together, and Kṛṣṇa recommends herein that one should work for Him. Everyone has to eat something to live. Therefore he should accept the remnants of foodstuffs offered to Kṛṣṇa. Any civilized man has to perform some religious..."

Prabhupāda: "You give Me." "Whatever you eat, you give Me," Kṛṣṇa says.

                                                                                                                                                                        353565

Guru Gaurāìga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence.

Prabhupāda: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.

Guru Gaurāìga: So real independence means to surrender then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to māyā. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Kṛṣṇa. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa.

Yogeśvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying.

Prabhupāda: Hm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies. They have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately?

Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach...

Prabhupāda: You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it and you'll see the reflection. Our process is paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam. (break) ...śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi...

Yogeśvara: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Yogeśvara: Second Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām.

Yogeśvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little. And they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: In the First Part, there is. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Kīrtana. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. If one hears from you, he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing.

Bhagavān: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant.

Prabhupāda: Hearing is the first. Saìkīrtana. Let him..., give, give him chance for hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Haṁsadūta:

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

"Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart, and the benefactor of the truthful devotee..."

Prabhupāda: The Paramātmā... Kṣetrajïaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. He's also kṣetrajïa. He's also in the body. So here He does His work. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Yes. Read the translation.

Haṁsadūta: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The chanting and hearing goes on. And if one agrees to hear and chant, then Kṛṣṇa helps from within. He cleanses. Suhṛt satām. Because He wants to reform them. Suhṛt satām. Everyone, especially the devotee. So He helps cleanse him. In this way, if he's given chance to hear, again and again, then the next verse... See.

Haṁsadūta: The next verse?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata...

Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. His heart is filled up with so many dirty things. So by that process, when he agrees to hear, chanting and hearing... Therefore we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." I say Hare Kṛṣṇa, and we ask others to chant. Response. By this process, his heart becomes cleansed. And next verse says: naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. Not that it has become completely cleansed. A little, or almost cleansed. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu.

Haṁsadūta: Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā.

Prabhupāda: By this process, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing the message of Kṛṣṇa, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that is also about Kṛṣṇa, chanting about Kṛṣṇa, nityaṁ daily, regularly, nityam bhāgavata-sevayā...

Haṁsadūta: Bhagavaty uttama-śloke...

Prabhupāda: Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī. Then he becomes fixed up in devotional service. Not that he has completely become cleansed. Even little cleansed, then he will engage. Then he will hear. "What does he say?" Unclean, how he can take up?

Haṁsadūta: He can't accept it.

Prabhupāda: No. Unclean. Therefore we make more cleaner, cleaner, cleaner, cleaner. The more he becomes cleansed, he can understand. He'll accept. But unclean state, you do not expect. So the process of cleanliness is this ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam. The more they read literature, the more hear, more chanting, in this way, gradually... Then next verse?

Haṁsadūta: Tadā rajas-tamo...

Prabhupāda: Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye.

Haṁsadūta: Ceta etair...

Prabhupāda: Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. The example is kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. When one is too much affected with the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, passion and ignorance... What is this kāma? Lusty and greediness. These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-guṇa. So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple... And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. They say, they say... They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. Pāgale kim abole chāgale kiṁ na khāoyā. In the Bengali it is said: A madman, what does he not speak? He speaks any nonsense. And a goat, what does he not eat? So if you keep a madman... They are keeping them mad... That is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge that what is the aim of life. That you have to protest. So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that: "Why you rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge." Here God says that: 'Under My direction the prakṛti's working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim. Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic... God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility? Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there. And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again (indistinct). This is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, the have misused their independence. Therefore, they are in the material world. Otherwise why should they remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                        August 13, 1973, Paris                                                            353964

Professor: How many levels of initiation do you have?

Prabhupāda: Two.

Professor: Two. The first...

Prabhupāda: First initiation, experimental...

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes.

Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?

Prabhupāda: No.

Professor: No. Tell me why?

Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. There is nothing, such thing as janma.

Professor: Oh. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyaïjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmaṇa system, śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyaïjakam, abhivyaïjakaṁ varṇa. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet. This is the injunction of Nārada, "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla... So Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmaṇa. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmaṇa, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmaṇa. So, according to our Gosvāmī process, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has given us the book, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. In that book he has written,

yathā kāïcanatāṁ yāti

kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena

dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām

Nṛṇām: "Of all human beings, by initiation, he becomes a dvija." So we follow that principle. And besides that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered that bhārata-bhūmite... You understand little Bengali?

Professor: No, Bengali, no, I don't. But it doesn't matter.

Prabhupāda: Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra. It is almost Sanskrit. "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in the land of Bhāratavarṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "making his life successful," kara para-upakāra. Para-upakāra. Para-upakāra means everyone is in slumber and considering himself that he is body, like cats and dogs. Therefore, they should be raised to the spiritual consciousness that "You are not cats and dogs. You are Brahman." Just realize "ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This is para-upakāra. So we are doing that. We are awakening everyone. Uttiṣṭhataḥ jāgrataḥ prāpta-varaṁ nibodhata: "You have got now human being form of life. Now get up and make your life successful by spiritual realization." This is our message. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. By spiritual realization everyone will become happy. Without spiritual realization, nobody can become happy. This is our mission.

Professor: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: So Indian caste brāhmaṇas, they are against me, against me. They come to fight with me that I am spoiling Hindu religion.

Professor: (laughs) Well, you are a brāhmaṇa yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am now sannyāsī.

Haṁsadūta: This is a statement of account from the Central Bank of India. It just arrived from London.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause, opens letter) Any other letter? No.

Haṁsadūta: That's all. No.

Prabhupāda: So just see how we have translated. You are Sanskrit scholar.

Professor: You know the Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad?

Prabhupāda: Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad. Yes.

Professor: Yes, I have made a translation of it into French. It's under print now at the present.

Prabhupāda: Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad? That is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Professor: Yeah, that the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That's the...

Yogeśvara: You mentioned that to Professor Stahl in your correspondences.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: You mentioned that in the Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is specifically recommended to counteract the contamination.

Prabhupāda: Now it is translated by you.

Professor: Yeah.

Yogeśvara: In French?

Professor: In French, yes. I'll send you a copy when, when it's out of the press. It is not a fact at present. Well, I thank you very much for being kind enough...

Yogeśvara: If you have questions, you shouldn't feel shy. You can ask whatever you want.

Professor: No, why not?

Prabhupāda: No. He has already questioned once, that I am making brāhmaṇa--whether it is according to śāstra?

Professor: That's the usual question. That's not the first time this question has been asked to you.

Prabhupāda: No, it is... We do not do anything which is not in śāstra. So this Jābāla Upaniṣad, this Satyakāma Jābāla, he went to Gautama Muni for initiation. So Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He replied that he did not know. "So ask your mother." The mother was asked also. She said, "No, I do not know." He came to Gautama Muni and said that, "My father's name is neither known to my mother nor to me."

Professor: Yes, yes. I know this story.

Prabhupāda: Then he accepted that "You are a brāhmaṇa," because he is talking truth.

Professor: The truth, satyam.

Prabhupāda: That is the sign.

Professor: The sign. It's a well-known story.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, by birth, a brāhmaṇa is not made. By character.

Professor: Yes, I agree with that. And what about girls? Do you initiate girls? Or not?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Professor: Do you initiate girls?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So many girls. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim.

Professor: That's...

Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Give him, Paṇòita Mahāśaya.

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Professor: Just like Gārgī and... Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gārgī. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ.

Yogeśvara: It's rather remarkable if one takes into account the fact that most of us come from backgrounds which had nothing whatsoever to do with the standards of brahminical culture.

Professor: That's right. Yes, that's...

Yogeśvara: We were, we were steeped in all kinds of bad habits.

Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic injunction, the Westerners are mlecchas, yavanas. You know better than me.

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So pāpa-yoni. And therefore, Kṛṣṇa says... What does He say?

Pradyumna:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, although they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, or workers, can approach the supreme destination."

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In another place, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, I think Second, Second Canto... Find out this verse: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ.

 

Morning Walk                                               August 30, 1973, London                                                          354443

Śyāmasundara: In the Jewish tradition, they yearn for a life of living on farms, villages, small communities with cows and agriculture.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Is this also expressed in the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

David Lawrence: You feel that strongly.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is real life. Real life means you have to minimize your bodily activities so that you can save time and devote for spiritual understanding. That is real life. And the present civilization based on bodily concept of life is animal life. It is not civilized life. Civilized life means athāto brahma-jijïāsā. When one is advanced so much so that he inquires about the spirit soul. But there is no such inquiry. Like the cats and dogs, they cannot inquire what is spirit soul. So Vedic life means to become free as much as possible from the bodily disturbances. Therefore, the first education is to become brahmacārī, celibacy. You see? Now, at the present moment, they are trying to make the abortion as law. But these rascals cannot check their sex life. You see? Their philosophy is that you shall go on with sex life unrestrictedly and when there is pregnancy, kill the child.

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is their rascal's philosophy. They have no idea that by training one can forget sex life. So if you forget sex life, where is the question of abortion? Where is the question of abortion? But they cannot do that. Therefore, it is said adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. By nonrestricted sense enjoyment they are gradually going to the animal, lower grade of life. They cannot explain why there are so many varieties of life. They cannot explain. So this killer of baby within the womb, so the result will be that this man who is, I mean to say, indulging in abortion, he'll be put into the womb, and somebody will kill him. And as many wombs or babies he has killed, he'll have to take so many lives and being killed. So much so that it will be rather impossible for him for hundreds of years not to see the light. He'll remain in the womb and being killed. Does not know the nature's law. One cannot violate the nature's law. You can violate the state law. Suppose you kill somebody, you can escape by trick. But you cannot escape nature's law. As many times you have killed, so many times you have to be killed within the womb. This is nature's law.

David Lawrence: I was very interested to talk to a nurse in one of the main London hospitals only last week in fact, and she was saying that they're having an almost impossible time trying to man these abortion wards now because all the nurses and doctors just don't want to do the work. In some cases, she was saying, that they take a baby from its mother's womb and it's sort of put onto a tray and thrown into a litter bin and you can see it moving!

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Lawrence: And they've had one or two cases at their hospital where they've gone out afterwards and they've seen babies moving! Terrible.

Prabhupāda: It has been seen in Calcutta also, in dust bin found out some child, dust bin.

David Lawrence: Terrible. Some are in such an advanced state of pregnancy that clearly life is a strong possibility.

Prabhupāda: Not advanced stage, life begins from the very beginning of sex. The living entity is very small. By nature's law, according to his karma, he's sent to the father's semina and that is injected and immediately the two secretions emulsify, the man's and the woman's, and it forms a body just like a pea. That is the formation of body. Now that pea-like form develops gradually. Then first manifestation is the nine holes. Everything is there in the Vedic literature. Nine holes, they have got nine holes. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. In this way gradually the senses develop and by the time seven months, everything is complete and the living entity's consciousness come back. Prior to the formation of the body, the living entity remains unconscious just like in chloroform, anaesthetic. Then he dreams and then gradually consciousness... At that time he becomes very much upset to come out, come out. Then nature gives him "khut!" He comes out. That's all. This is the process of birth.

David Lawrence: Miracle.

Prabhupāda: What do they know? They do not know anything.

David Lawrence: No, no. I was absolutely amazed to read an article...

Prabhupāda: This is Vedic knowledge. So you'll get everything perfect. Therefore, how there can be any history? That is the difficulty. We are speaking everything, of the spiritual. Therefore, it is sometimes very difficult for the gross materialist. They are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.

 

Room conversation                                     London September 2,1973                                                          355088

Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān. Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.

Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some...

Prabhupāda: Why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you surmise your proposal?

Guest (1): No, I mean, ah...

Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāì-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing. Receiving from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāì-manobhiḥ. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vāk, mind, then, although Lord Viṣṇu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Viṣṇu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood. Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone: "First of all, you become brāhmaṇa. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Viṣṇu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gītā. They hear. They hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed and gradually... If it is a fact, śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāì-manobhiḥ, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian, not all of them are Indian... Indians are also there. But because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message, first of all Bhagavad-gītā, entrance, then Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like books, then gradually, he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... Athāto brahma-jijïāsā means what is God. So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāì-manobhiḥ. This is the process. Very simple process. Simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. By hearing, the mirror of consciousness, consciousness is just like a mirror. It is now covered with dust. Mārjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa is puṇya, pious activities. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Either you hear or you chant. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi, vidhunoti, is washed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Who is...? Find out this verse. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Paṇòita Mahārāja? Call him. Śṛṇvatām, you can find out in the index

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām

This process should be adopted. Hear about Kṛṣṇa. Without any prejudice. Then everything will be... S-r, yes?                            

 

“Out of many million of persons are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfect, one can hardly understand Me.” Then why He is speaking Bhagavad-gītā? Actually the formula is impossible. Nobody is trying for becoming perfect, and there is no perfect; then who will understand? And still, He is speaking. Still Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming. So our endeavor should be there. Our endeavor should be. If one man can take it up, then there will be immense good for the human so... Therefore I say this is the only humanitarian work.

This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization…that foolishness has killed the whole Vedic civilization.

 

There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons.

 

We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians.

 

... if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy…

 

…because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy—therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal.…our real aim is how people will be happy. That is our real aim. So these rascals are leading, misleading. Therefore we want to check them. Is that all right? Is that all right?

 

And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.

 

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means all-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural, everything. It is not one-sided.

 

There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

 

 So we have to act by the order of Kṛṣṇa, not by the votes of the madmen.

 

Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical.

 

So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers.

 

...strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We want everyone to be happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME SIX

Room Conversation                                   September 19, 1973, Bombay                                                       357115

Prabhupāda:  So there are so many members of the society against cruelty to animals. But they are all meat-eaters. Read something from Bhagavad-gītā and discuss. So in the Nepeansea Road, whether regular other things are going on or not? Or simply it is going out and coming and eating and sleeping?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we want to have morning class and Monday, Wednesday and Friday have evening program there, evening discourse.

Prabhupāda: Whether it is going on?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we just fixed up the place. The day you arrived was the first day it was painted. Until then, it was not fit for anyone to come in. It was very nasty.

Prabhupāda: But you are living since a long time there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have been living, but we have not invited others there.

Prabhupāda: No, you invite others or not, whether your program was going on?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, till then it wasn't, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then it was simply a joint mess, that you go and collect and come and eat and sleep.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāòiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons. So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." You know this word, "churchianity?" You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh mission. Vivekananda has given preached, Yata mata tata patha, Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers. Everyone can manufacture his own way of religion. So sense enjoyment, there is free field. This material world means sense enjoyment. But spiritual life means no sense enjoyment, tapasya. Tapo divyam. Sense enjoyment is there even in the hogs. Then where is the difference between man and hog? The man means the more he has denied sense enjoyment, he is advanced. Otherwise the spirit of sense enjoyment there is in the hogs. That is the difference. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. These ordinary men, they are working so hard, but what is their aim? The aim is sense enjoyment. So keeping the point, sense enjoyment, in view, there is no difference between hogs and human beings. Because they are also working day and night, hogs. A particular animal has been mentioned in the śāstra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. This ayaṁ deho nṛloke, in the human society, is not meant for working so hard simply for sense enjoyment because this spirit is visible even in the hogs. Then what it is meant...? Tapaḥ. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa. That is the point. Śamena, damena. Satya-śaucābhyām. Everything is there. And there are different types of sense enjoyment: rūpa, rasa, gandha, śabda, sparśa, six kinds. And each sense, there is an object of sense enjoyment. There is eyes, oh, beautiful woman, sense enjoyment. Maithunam, sex life, there are eight kinds of sex. If one thinks within the mind about sex enjoyment, that is also sex. So anyway, that is the danger, keeping a separate department for money collecting. Then it will turn: "Collect money, eat nicely and sleep nicely." And to live in the temple, at least, one is forced to rise early in the morning, take bath, to have darśana. They'll get regulated life. Therefore this temple worship is needed because we are so impure. So at least, in temple, by following the regulative principles, we can keep ourself pure. Otherwise simply chanting is sufficient. There is no need of constructing big, big temples. But we are so impure... That is Jīva Gosvāmī's, recommended that as soon as we give up this temple worship method, regulative principles, then we become, in the dress of so-called, we become victim of māyā. Veśopajīvaka. They are working and doing some business, and then our dress will be a means of business. This will be also another material business. Actually they are doing so. So that is the danger of keeping a separate department. What is the use? We have got jeeps?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still... The danger is very much there, I see that. But there is a use.

Prabhupāda: Well, if the danger is there, why should we accept such use?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can we overcome that danger? We can try to overcome that danger.

Prabhupāda: You cannot ever overcome, because you are all weak. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā. Unless you are very strong, māyā is very, very stronger than you. How you can avoid it? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante. Only one is very, very strong in capturing the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, he can avoid. Otherwise it is not possible. All these Villa Parle, Juhu gentlemen, they are daily coming to their city business. And is it very difficult for us?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have an office, though, in the city where they come to.

Prabhupāda: Office means their business is office. But your business is begging. Your business is not office. Your business is not... They have to direct so many things from there. That we can do. Besides that... Anyway, even they have got office, they come from in Bombay, Calcutta, even from hundred miles away. So if there is no such program, Deity worship, regulative principles, then it will be a joint mess. Hotel. Transcendental hotel. And transcendental fraud. This will go on. The business will be transcendental fraud, and life will be transcendental hotel. (Break) ...twenty, twenty-five. So these women devotees, they are given cāpāṭis by the bābājīs. Kṣurasya dhārā. Actually it is like that. A sharpened razor, A little inattention, immediately blood. Kṣurasya dhārā niśitā duratyayā durgaṁ pathas tat kavayo vadanti (?). That is the risk. Nowadays modern civilization, as we are accepting, there is jeep, there is telephone, everything is there. One can conduct his activities from anywhere.

                                                                                                                                                                        357145

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. The jïānīs and yogis, they have to search for the Absolute Truth for many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth, they are also jïānavān. Or after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, jïānavān. Everyone is searching after the Absolute or the highest perfection of life. "In this way, searching, when one comes to the real platform of becoming wise, then he surrenders unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. Why? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such wise man, jïānavān, he knows that "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. "That mahātmā is very rare." So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is making that sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary mahātmā. Sa mahātmā, that mahātmā, who fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa also says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is real perfection of life. By understanding Kṛṣṇa, by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, by going back to home back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, that is saṁsiddhi. What is that verse, saṁsiddhi?

Pradyumna: Saṁsiddhiṁ paraṁ gati...

Prabhupāda: No... nāpnuvanti. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhim. Siddhi, siddhi is ordinary. If you become transcendentalist, jïānī, yogi, that is also kind of siddhi. Yogis, they have got aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā-laghimādi. But that is not saṁsiddhi. Saṁsiddhi is different. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. The highest perfection, saṁsiddhi is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is saṁsiddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. That will save him from coming down again to this place which is full of miserable conditions of life. That is saṁsiddhi. That one can attain very easily. That is also described, that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: "Anyone who understands Me in truth..." Generally, people understand Kṛṣṇa that "He appeared as a great personality, son of Vasudeva. At Mathurā, He was born. And He acted very gorgeously in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and so on, so on." This is also knowing. But this is not knowing factually that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one understands Kṛṣṇa, the original source of everything, janmādy asya yataḥ, which Kṛṣṇa explains, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: "There is no superior authority beyond Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: "I am the origin of all." When one understands Kṛṣṇa like that... The Māyāvādī philosophers, they think that "I am also Kṛṣṇa, I am also Kṛṣṇa." But people who follow, they do not ask him that "If you are Kṛṣṇa, you show something as Kṛṣṇa showed. Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill when He was seven years old. And you are seventy years old. What you have done like that?" (laughs) So everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot manifest Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Kṛṣṇa showed the virāṭ-rūpa to Arjuna. What you have got? So this is Māyāvāda. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Kṛṣṇa says, "Nobody can be superior than Me or equal to Me, equal to Me." Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Asamordhva. Nobody is equal; nobody is above Him. Asamordhva. So in this way if we understand Kṛṣṇa, then we become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. And this tattvataḥ is very significant. How you can know Kṛṣṇa as He is, in truth? That is also explained. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in tattva, in fact, in truth, then you have to adopt this process of bhakti. Not jïāna, not yoga, not karma. Karma, jïāna, yoga, bhakti. So Kṛṣṇa is understandable simply by bhakti, not by other methods. Not by karma, not by jïāna, not by yoga. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. The jïānīs, karmīs, yogis, they are trying to come to the Absolute Truth, but they will take many, many births to come to this point to surrender. Therefore intelligence means if one understands that "Ultimately I have to come to Kṛṣṇa for my highest perfection; then why not immediately? Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Why not take this process?" This is intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān: "After many, many births when one actually becomes wise, jïānavān, he surrenders, he surrenders." If one remains still unwise, not fully in knowledge, he hesitates, "Oh, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is as like me; He is also a man. Maybe a powerful man, a very learned man." No. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa, tattvataḥ, in truth... "Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, even if he does not understand fully, if he tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is also very good." That is also. Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer. Even one tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, he does not finish, Kṛṣṇa says, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt: "Even little beginning of this devotional service can save one person from the greatest danger." Therefore there is great need of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world, to make them intelligent. Is there any question on this point?

 

Morning Walk                                          December 2, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     358382

Prabhupāda: ...the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life. But that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality. Huh?

Bali Mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart... After the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul, that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in.

Prabhupāda: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like.

Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a place.

Bali Mardana: Now it's very clear. (break)

Prabhupāda: Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye. There is superior overlooking. That is Kṛṣṇa, anumantā, upadraṣṭā. Upadraṣṭā anumantā.

Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much...

Prabhupāda: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunādi. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasa-tīrtham. Vāyasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... (break) gṛham andha-kūpam, ātma-pātam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhāgavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacārī, become brahmacārī. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how to continue the species?

Prabhupāda: Why you will continue? You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Māyā is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunādi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.

 

Morning Walk                                         December 5, 1973, Los Angeles                                                      358941

Prabhupāda: ...has done a great mistake. I never expected... (noise) ...all of a sudden... (break) You see the so-called swamis and yogis. They could not do anything, because they are outsider. They are not within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. One must remain within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. Then his spiritual life is assured. Otherwise, paramour(?). (break) Similarly, everything, everyone belongs to Kṛṣṇa's family, but we have to see what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone is citizen of the state. Why a man is given high position and big title? Why? Because he's recognized.

Sudāmā: Right.

Prabhupāda: So one must give service. Simply to feel, "I belong to Kṛṣṇa's family," and doing nothing for Kṛṣṇa, that is not...

Sudāmā: That's no good.

Prabhupāda: That's no good. That is not good. That means he'll... Very soon he'll again forget Kṛṣṇa. He'll again forget Kṛṣṇa.

Sudāmā: Actually, the other element is so powerful. These people here, because, even though they are part of Kṛṣṇa's family, but because they have forgotten, then we become influenced by their forgetfulness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Forgetfulness means māyā.

Sudāmā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Māyā is nothing. It is a forgetfulness. That's all. It has no existence. Forgetfulness, it does not stand. But so long it is there, it is very troublesome.

Sudāmā: I've been asked a question by some devotees sometimes that they don't feel happy. So even if they are unhappy, mentally, should, they still should continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I tell them, even if one is unhappy...

Prabhupāda: But you should show example. If you show example different way, how they will follow you?

Sudāmā: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Example is better than precept. Why you are living outside?

Sudāmā: Well, I...

Prabhupāda: (break) ...last time I was so much deteriorated in health, I had to leave this place. That does not mean I'll leave the Society. I went to India and recupitated. Or came to London. That's all right. So health may be sometimes... But that does not mean we shall give up the Society. If my health is unsuitable here, I go... I have a hundred centers. And you'll not go out of this universe for your health recouping. You have to remain within the universe. Then why do you go out of the Society? (break) ...Śrī Narottama dāsa Öhākura. We have to live with devotees. Why I left my family? Because they were not devotees. Therefore I come... Otherwise, in old age, I would have been comfortable. No. We should not live with the nondevotees, may be family men or anyone. Just like Mahārāja Vibhīṣaṇa. Because his brother was not devotee, he left him, left him. He came to Rāmacandra. Vibhīṣaṇa. You know that?

Sudāmā: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, it says that a sannyāsī should live alone. That means only with devotees.

Prabhupāda: Who...! Where it is said sannyāsī should live alone?

Hṛdayānanda: I mean, sometimes in your books.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes in your books. So that means with devotees.

Prabhupāda: In general, sannyāsī may live alone. But sannyāsī's duty is to preach.

Sudāmā: That I don't ever want to stop.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Sudāmā: I don't ever want to stop preaching.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, preaching, you cannot manufacture preaching. You must do preaching according to the principles ordered by your spiritual master. You cannot manufacture your own way of preaching. That is required. There must be some leader. Under the leadership. Yasya prasādād bhagavat... Why it is said? Everywhere, in the office, there is some immediate boss. So you have to please him. That is service. Suppose in office, in a department there is office superintendent. And if you do in your own way, "Yes, I'm doing my business," and the office superintendent is not pleased, do you think that kind of service is nice? No. Similarly, we have got, everywhere we have got immediate boss. So we must work. That is systematic. If everyone manufactures, invents his own way of life, then there must be chaos.

Sudāmā: Yeah, that's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we are world organization. There is spiritual side, and there is material side also. That is not material side. That is also spiritual side, means systematic management. Otherwise how it will be done? Just like Gaurasundara sold the house, and there is no trace of the money. What is this? He did not ask him, anyone. He sold the house, and where is the money, there is no trace. (break) Ah, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is that badge?                                                

 

Morning Walk                                          December 7, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     359778

You know the story, that Kālidāsa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." (laughter) "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. (laughter) He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we bring them to their senses?

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti, as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all this māyā, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (break) This is the statement in Bhāgavata. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram: "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater--the same vagina. That's all.

Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would say that that is braveness. they are brave in trying again and again.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must say. That is their rascaldom. One who goes, braveness, go to the Pacific Ocean and die, and go to hell. That is their braveness. That is their braveness. They are bravely going to hell. That's all. There is a story, palavarne boi nate(?). One man is chasing another man. So the man who is chased, he's asked, "Why you are fleeing away, fleeing away?" So, "Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not flee? Why shall not go? Am I afraid of you." He's fleeing out of fear, but still, he says, "Am I afraid of you? Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not? Why shall I stop?" This is the position. "Bravely I am going to hell. Why shall I stop? I am brave." This is going on.

Hṛdayānanda: It's crazy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, crazy. This is stated:

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya

māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya

"Just like when a man becomes crazy, ghostly haunted, he speaks all nonsense, similarly, anyone who is under the influence of this material energy, he's crazy." He's crazy, talks all nonsense. That's all. (break)

māyār bośe jāccho bhese'

khāccho hābuòubu bhāi

This is Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's... "Why you are being carried away by the waves of māyā and you are becoming drowned and sometimes up, sometimes down? Why you are wasting your life in that way?"

jīva kṛṣṇa dās e biśwās

korle to' ār duḥkho nāi

"If you simply accept Kṛṣṇa as your guidance, there is no more māyā." But they'll not accept. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. Therefore one who accepts and surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa after many, many births of such struggle for existence, he is actually wise. He's actually wise.

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee.

Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me."

Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because you were not ready." (laughs) Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Kṛṣṇa. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together.

Morning Walk                                           December 8, 1973, Los Angeles                                                    360229

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengal, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the brāhmaṇa caste family like Mukherjees, then Bannerjees, then,... I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that we are much more superior brāhmaṇas than other like Chaudhuris and Sanyals.

Prabhupāda: But where is your superiority?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was explaining like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think tradition must be still...

Prabhupāda: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. The reference is given to the quality, guṇa, and karma, and action. How you can simply say that because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high court judge, therefore I am high court judge. Is that very good logic? How you became superior? You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work. This is very nice. The world is accepting like that. Somebody's coming to you to accept some scientific instruction. He accepts you're superior in scientific knowledge, not for your birth, but for your quality and work. That is fact. So you first of all come to the platform of the quality and work, then you claim superior.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. That is foolishness.

Prabhupāda: And that foolishness has killed the whole Vedic civilization.

Yaśomatīnandana: I thought the same way before I became a disciple of Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Here is a... He comes from a very respectable brāhmaṇa family, but he knows...

Yaśomatīnandana: Well I realized afterwards that I was lower than a śūdra, because actually it was my duty and I rejected it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Öhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed--Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he's a physicist now. I think he came here about one year before I came here.

Prabhupāda: So if he's in service, then he's śūdra.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: He's śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. As soon as one accepts service of a master, immediately śūdra.

Yaśomatīnandana: True brāhmaṇas even didn't care for kings.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: They didn't care for the honor from king or they didn't, they would...

Prabhupāda: They would give advice to the kings but never accept the post of a king.

Hṛdayānanda: So every kṣatriya had to have something to manage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think people who say like this they are jealous.

Prabhupāda: Ha?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are jealous of the other people who are coming up higher than them. So, seeing them, they are quite jealous.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: These so-called brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: They must be jealous because if simply by taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family he can become brāhmaṇa and if somebody protests then he, he becomes jealous... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

360082

Prabhupāda: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.

Prajāpati: Actually they are so demoniac, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this...

Prabhupāda: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. The blind man going forward will fall into the ditch. So this is their rascaldom.

Bali Mardan: Can a person who eats meat obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat-eaters?

Prabhupāda: No, he’ll become animal, and he’ll be killed.

Bali Mardana: So that means practically all the population.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That animal will become man, and he’ll kill him. He’ll become animal. This is karma-bandhana. Yajïārthe karmaṇo ’nyatra loko ’yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. Yajïārthe, in the yajïa, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You will have to be killed.

Yaśomatīnandana: The meat-eating also leads to many other sinful activities too, right?

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Meat-eating means he’s demon, and demon means he’ll act in so many ways, demonic way, and he’ll be complicated, one after another.

Yaśomatīnandana: These humanists, Prabhupāda, may try to make some...

Prabhupāda: This is humanism. We are trying to save the human being from falling down. This is real humanism, if there is meaning of humanity. We are trying to save everyone, that “Don’t fall down. Take full advantage of this human form of life and go back to home, back to Godhead. Be happy.” This is humanity. Except this, all bogus, humbug. Except this, all bogus humbug.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that will be this perfect platform, but there’s nothing like something perfect. They will explain that...

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?

Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don’t want to give this body up.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.

Prajāpati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, “Well you have no experience. How can you be qualified to...?”

Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he’ll do, he’ll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that “All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that ‘How we can be happy with this Nixon and company’s leadership?’ ” So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that’s all. We have no ambition. Just like we are brāhmaṇas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians. We are not going to compete with them, we have no business, neither we have time. But because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy—therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal. What we shall do taking part in politics? We have no business. But our real aim is how people will be happy. That is our real aim. So these rascals are leading, misleading. Therefore we want to check them. Is that all right? Is that all right?

Prajāpati: Will this be possible, to reform these leaders, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Well, just like I came here alone to reform, to make God conscious, but gradually it is increasing. Although I had very little hope, but still now hopeful. So let us try for it. It is not that cent percent people, but if one, two men can understand, leading men, then the whole society will be benefited. It is not that mass people will be reformed. Just like we have received one letter from one Mr. Ford, Ford family, how much he is appreciating our movement. He has paid also. So it is our duty to do. But if one, two men comes out, comes forward, then it will be successful.

Yaśomatīnandana: That Ford boy is about to become a devotee, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he’ll become devotee, just like George is becoming devotee. So if somebody comes in our touch and if he is sincere, he’ll become devotee. Now this, I shall go this way?

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Prajāpati: So therefore, because we’re not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Prajāpati: ...It always has been.

Prabhupāda: Our, this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post it is all right. If we don’t get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Kṛṣṇa. He came to preach, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It’s just a form of preaching.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he’ll take advantage. This is process.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not everybody.

Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, that is already spoken. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā; at the same time, He says,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

“Out of many million of persons are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfect, one can hardly understand Me.” Then why He is speaking Bhagavad-gītā? Actually the formula is impossible. Nobody is trying for becoming perfect, and there is no perfect; then who will understand? And still, He is speaking. Still Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming. So our endeavor should be there. Our endeavor should be. If one man can take it up, then there will be immense good for the human so... Therefore I say this is the only humanitarian work. This is the only humanitarian... All others, bogus. They cannot become success. They are opening hospitals, but there are many millions of persons there without any hos..., and even if you give good medicine, good hospital, is that guarantee?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the difference is one is working on the illusory platform...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: :...and one is working on the absolute platform.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Therefore a little, if you act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never be lost and it will save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Kartum avyayam. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam. And whatever you have done, that is your permanent asset. It will never be lost.

 

Morning Walk                                           December 9, 1973, Los Angeles                                                    360352

Prabhupāda: What they have discovered? These four hundred years, the scientists said that there is no God?

Prajāpati: No, they were... One scientist, Galileo, he was making all kinds of inquiries into saying that the earth is round and so many things, and the church of that day, the rascal priests, they put him to death because he was saying things that were not in the scriptures. Since that time, especially the last hundred years, the scientists are...

Prabhupāda: No, the things is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody is rascal, either the scientist is rascal or the priest is rascal. There must be real understanding. That is government's duty. Otherwise, if the priest says, "The scientist speaking against religion; therefore he should be hanged," so that is not good government. Government must see that whether the scientist is speaking the truth. That sense must be there. Yes, world is round. That is fact. Goloka. In Vedic literature it is bhū-gola, jagad-aṇòa. These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad-aṇòa. The universe is round. And Goloka. Or Bhū-gola. Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo. So if the state is blind, he does not see whether he's talking right or wrong, then havi candra raja gobi candra mantri (?). What can be done. That is going on. Because the government means a set of fools, so all foolish people are flourishing. Government is a set of fools because sinful men. They cannot be intelligent. A sinful man cannot be intelligent. Yes. That's a fact. If he's intelligent, then his intelligence is used for wrong things. Duṣkṛtina. Kṛtina. Kṛtina means intelligent, but duṣkṛtina, badly intelligent, for doing wrong things. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Of course, there is a gap of understanding.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a gap of understanding.

Prabhupāda: Gap of understanding because the basic principle is wrong, because everyone is fool. And they are trying to understand things with their foolish background. There is the wrong. They are trying to be advanced in knowledge on the foolish background. They do not accept that, that they are foolish rascals. And they are trying to advance in knowledge, active-foolish, fourth class men. Their background is wrong. No scientist, no politician, no philosophers, at the present moment, believe in this, that there is soul, and the soul is transmigrating from one body... Nobody believes it. So their whole background is foolish. So their so-called advancement must be all foolish. They're all fools, rascals, animals. An animal does not know that there is soul and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. This is animal conception. You cannot teach these pigeons that "You are spirit soul. Your body's different from you." They will, they have no power to understand. So if a human being cannot understand, what is the difference between these pigeons and cats and dogs and him? Then basic principle is wrong. Just like in mathematical calculation, if at one point you have mistaken, then will that be correct ever? It will go on, mistaking, mistaking, mistaking, mistaking. If the, if one point, while adding, you have made two plus two equal to five, then after that, everything wrong, everything wrong. Everything wrong. So that is their position. Their basic principle is like animal. The animal cannot understand that there is soul and there is transmigration of the soul. And if the human society makes progress of their so-called knowledge on this wrong basis understanding, then what will be the result? Everything wrong, everything wrong, everything wrong. Everything foolish. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam: "If somebody does not know what is ātma-tattva, what is the science of soul, then whatever he is making, so-called advancement that is all defeat." Parābhava. That is being done. And defeat they are taking as success. Just like these rascal scientists, they could not go and settle in the moon planet. Still, they are saying, "It is success. It is success." Just see the fun. What success? You could not stay there, and what success you have got? Simply by seeing a crack? "Yes." That's all right, success. And people are accepting, "Oh, yes, you are successful. Now go to another planet." These bogus things are going on.

 

Morning Walk                                        December 11, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     360820

Prabhupāda: ...difficulty is that because they are poverty stricken, they want some money now. They are thinking that "About God we shall think later on."

Yaśomatīnandana: Is it all right to blame the government in public, Prabhupāda, in India?

Prabhupāda: No, what is that government? Government is elected by the public. If public is polluted, the government must be polluted. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Public votes somebody, "Take charge of government." So if the public selects somebody nonsense, the government must be nonsense.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. In other words, to tell the public that "You should elect God-conscious leaders to have a better society."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is our propaganda, that "This is the standard of leadership. So if you elect first-class leader, then your government will be first-class. But if you elect some rogues and thieves, drunkards, then how you can expect good government?" This is natural. After all, democracy means the public elect. The public does not know how to distinguish the rogues and thieves. Therefore the rogues and thieves take the advantage of it and, somehow or other, and take vote and sit on the presidential chair. That is difficulty. Just like our propaganda is... We are not making any propaganda in the beginning, that "Stop this cow slaughter." We are educating people, "Don't eat meat." If people become educated, automatically the slaughterhouse will be closed. This is our propaganda. "Don't drink." So if people give up drinking, automatically the drinking business will be closed.

Prajāpati: You have given us this instruction, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to confront these leaders. We understand that this is your very much wish and we shall do everything we can to try to fulfill your desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Do it.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car)

Prabhupāda: If you can educate the people. "Don't vote for the rascals. Just try to understand who is the real man, who is the real leader."

Hṛdayānanda: So political program is very important.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If public is educated to select right type of leader, then automatically... And it is very easy thing that "Leader must be faithful. A leader must know what is God and how to trust in Him. And he must be free from all sinful activities. The pillars of sinful activities are these." This is our propaganda. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                        December 12, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     360839

Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the communist and the non-communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain "so-called trust in God." That will not be possible. So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?

Karandhara: No, no significant change.

Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of anyone of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on. (break)

Umāpati: ...I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to western desires.

Prabhupāda: That means western people are all demons.

Umāpati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that "We stand for this," and to have anybody vote for you.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nobody may vote but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does it mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that "People are illiterate. They don't care for it. Therefore let the university be closed." This is no argument.

Yaśomatīnandana: Gradually they will develop attraction.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have to work. That is preaching. You don't think preaching is so easy going. Eating, sleeping, and sometimes chanting, "Haribol," that's all. That is not preaching. We must be ready to implant Kṛṣṇa consciousness ideas, throughout the whole world.

Umāpati: That probably won't happen overnight, though.

Prabhupāda: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate. Arcā means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, but he does not know anything more, who is devotee, who is non-devotee, what is the duty to the world, sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement. Then you become madhyama-adhikārī. Madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now... Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will be all closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you'll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close.

Prajāpati: They can show no good result for their activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is preaching. Therefore we are writing so many books. Unless we take care of the books and preach and read ourself, understand the philosophy, this Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within few years. Because there will be no life. How long one can artificially go on, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol!" That will be artificial, no life.

Yaśomatīnandana: That's right Prabhupāda. We are so foolish, we never realize anything unless you tell us like that. Without preaching...

Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well-conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing.

Umāpati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad-gītā into some schools, and they say, "Well," some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Well, we have a Bhagavad-gītā." I say, "This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā," and they say, "Well, it's just somebody else's opinion and we don't have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book."

Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion.

Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those...

Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: When you came to the western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful I think. But actually, it has become very successful, by preaching.

Prabhupāda: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, what to speak of others, but because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that we expect something and He gives us hundred times more.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: So if we simply follow your instructions, then I am sure that it will come out glorious.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: So if we are in the proper line, then our political activities also can become successful?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why not? Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means all-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural, everything. It is not one-sided. They take it as... They do not know. Therefore they are thinking it is a religious movement. No, it is all-including, all-including, all-pervasive.

Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.

Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.

Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?

Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as...

Karandhara: Not the churches.

Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate?

Karandhara: Well, you can't, but they do.

Prabhupāda: They do everything, but they are demons. They do mental concoction.

Karandhara: Basically, they want (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Why these politician says, "In God we believe, we trust"? Why this nonsense?

Umāpati: They fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the west.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean, the politicians they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, "In god we trust"?

Karandhara: Well before, traditionally...

Prabhupāda: Not before or now. What we are speaking on the actual fact, that how they are writing, "In God we trust." As soon as you bring in God, that is religion. That is general meaning.

Karandhara: There is a movement to take that off the money.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals change, you take the advantage of it, that "You cannot change. Then you become demons, you (are) animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals." That should be the people's voice. Educate people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and they will yell, "No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men." That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, "Yes, what we are speaking is all right." That is preaching.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually, when they formed the country and made the constitution, the concept was they were basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the...

Prabhupāda: So what does...? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching, actual, what is religion. Religion means... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam: "Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me." So who is a sane man who will deny, "No, I don't surrender to God"? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that "I don't like God, I don't like to surrender unto Him," then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very... Just like a prisoner. He is already surrendered to the government. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." This is the position. He's a madman. The state arrests him, kicks him, and puts him in the jail. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." So what can be done? "We don't care for the government." Just like Gandhi started civil disobedience movement, disobedience to the government laws, but all the whole stock was put into jail and they were beaten with shoes. But still, they said, "No, we are..." This is an example. Similarly, everyone is obeying, surrendering to God. But because they are rascal and fools, they are denying that we have surrendered. This is their position, madness. nobody can stay without surrendering to God. It is not possible.

Umāpati: Well, in a madhouse, a sane man is the only one considered mad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is already there. So we have to act by the order of Kṛṣṇa, not by the votes of the madmen. Just see the fun. Everyone is under control. Who is free? It is simply illusion. They are thinking, "I am free." Nobody is free. Under the stringent laws of nature, and still, he is thinking, "I don't care for God." This is madness. This is madness. Already under the laws of God, but still, he's protesting, "No, I don't care for God. There is no God." So we have to save these madmen from further deterioration. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Umāpati: Can a living entity ever lose his existence?

Prabhupāda: What you have studied in the Bhagavad-gītā?

Umāpati: Well I have never seen that it's possible.

Prabhupāda: No, what is your understanding from Bhagavad-gītā?

Umāpati: That we are eternal, that we have always been and always will be.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then how you can think of it? Why do you question this?

Umāpati: Well, because God's inconceivable. I just...

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. He is accepting the different types of bodies, but he is eternal. One body finished. That does not mean he is finished. He is transferred to another body according to his desire. He is never finished. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre.

Yaśomatīnandana: Avināśi tu tad viddhi.

Prabhupāda: Ah, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam. (break) ...is correct. We can face any so-called philosopher, any. Any so-called scientist. Any so-called politicians. You must be strong enough to have your firm conviction, that "We can face anyone rascal and defeat him." (break) ...and logic, argumentum vaculum. You know that? In logic there is a thesis or argumentum vaculum. Means no argument, but with stick and gun, you see. "If you don't believe, then here is stick and gun." That is called argumentum vaculum. So we have to make our position so strong that anyone who does not believe in God, he should be finished.

Umāpati: We had a president that used to believe in that. He is finished.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... (break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?

Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses. So if you say, "How it is possible for the conditioned soul?" "Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect." Just like we are doing. We are following Kṛṣṇa. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, His senses are not imperfect, and He does not cheat. We are following. Therefore, although we are imperfect, because we are following the perfect, our proposition is perfect. A child may be illiterate, but when he's taught, "Write A like this," and he follows that, he becomes literate. This is the policy.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality because he is under the direction of the master.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers. Blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others. They are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know.

Prajāpati: In the constitution is written in religious freedom. You should let... Anyone who wants to practice anything, it's all right in the constitution.

Prabhupāda: Religious freedom means everyone is rascal and every religion is rascaldom. So how they can check? They cannot check. Let it be. Go on.

Karandhara: It also says that has restrictions. Religious practices which harm people or are detrimental to the public good, they are checked.

Prabhupāda: So... Now here, why do they not check? A rascal, cheater, and he is presenting himself as God, and why the government is allowing him? Rather, we should bring a case that why government, against the constitution, is allowing this rascal that he is declaring that he is God? What qualification he has got? let it be decided in the court. We should do that.

Svarūpa: We have to make definition of religion.

Prabhupāda: That we shall give in the court. "First of all this man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?" Let there be case. This should be done.

Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Öhākura.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court." Why not institute a case?

Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?

Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves.

Prabhupāda: That everyone is taking chance. A poor man is taking chance to become rich man. So what is the difference between the poor man taking chance and the scientist? (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: :...which into all the characteristics are described in Divine and Demoniac natures. This modern world fits into all the demoniac qualities...

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are godless. Whole modern world is godless. They don't think of God very seriously. Everyone. They have described it as "Opiate," what is that?

Karandhara: "Opium of the people."

Prabhupāda: Yes. They think, "Those who are religious, they are simply wasting their time." Therefore communist country, they are completely against religion. They cannot allow their people to waste their time. That is their philosophy. This is the condition of the world.

Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that...

Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. (break)

Prabhupāda: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must. Are they doing properly?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so-called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. (break) ...Paraśurāma. You know Paraśurāma?

Karandhara: The incarnation?

Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the kṣatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty-one times massacred them. Finish! And those who, kṣatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the kṣatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-aryan. (break) ...strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was behaving in His life and that He was teaching. (break) ...behave like spiritual man. Then you can teach. If you don't behave, then how you can teach? (break) ...was brought here. It is more important than the Ganges. (break) One side, there is unrestricted sex life, and other side, stop population. But they cannot take this restricted sex life. Only fault! So if you restrict your sex life that "I shall not beget more than one child or two child," then where is the question of this abortion and contra...? But they, that they cannot. They will have unrestricted sex life; at the same time, they will check overpopulation.

Prajāpati: They trust the doctors, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medical men.

Prabhupāda: Whatever... His fault is that "I can restrict. I will not have sex life unless it is needed for begetting children."

Prajāpati: The psychologists say it is unhealthy to go without sex life. The men these people trust, the psychologists, psychiatrists, say it is unhealthy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, we know. But there is a process. Just like brahmacārī process is there, sannyāsī process is there. So if you adopt the process, you can restrict. (break)

Prajāpati: ...told Śrīla Prabhupāda, that it was published in a nationwide magazine. They showed that where people's trust was. They weren't trusting anything very much, but they trusted the medical people number one, and organized religion as such was way, way down, number eight or so. Why are people trusting the doctors so much?

Prabhupāda: Because they are under this impression the doctors are scientifically advanced. But the doctors' science is also imperfect. Because they do not know what is the soul. They do not believe in soul.

Karandhara: They trust the doctors the first, and they trust television the second.

Prabhupāda: Television.

Karandhara: Whatever they see on television, they accept.

Prabhupāda: Why they give so much authority to television?

Karandhara: Well, everyone watches it. So they just become indoctrinated.

Prajāpati: That is their altar in their home. It is in a permanent place in the center of their house, and they put flowers on top and they worship like that.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Umāpati: It's intoxication also.

Prabhupāda: After all, they accept authority. Either the doctor or the television, is it not?

Yaśomatīnandana: Now they should accept Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot say that they don't want authority. They cannot say. The authority is already there.

Karandhara: Well, the common people are crying for authority, leadership.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. (break) ...people will find in our camp. (break)

Prajāpati: :...one philosopher atheist by the name Bertrand Russell, he tries to prove that God does not exist by saying that people who say God exists, say that God is, everything has a cause and that the first cause is God, and Bertrand Russell says, "Well, if everything has a cause, then God also must have a cause. So that, there must be no God."

Prabhupāda: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore he is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn't got the extraordinary qualification, then how he is God? He is everything. He does not know. Why there is distinction between God and everything? Because God is not caused by everything, but everything is caused by God. That is the difference. (break) ...is equal to God, then everything is God. That is going on, Māyāvāda philosophy. (break)

Umāpati: I just know when I close my eyes, it's dark.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient. Therefore doctor is also patient because he's in the hospital. In the prisonhouse they're all prisoners. Therefore the superintendent of police he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit, he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. God means He has got a special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva-rāṭ. This word is used in Bhāgavatam, sva-rāṭ: "completely independent." Who is that rascal, Bernard Russell? He is a well...

Yaśomatīnandana: Bertrand Russell. Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago?

Umāpati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems.

Prabhupāda: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog? (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: ...philosophy. Because this whole world is made of asses, therefore asses' philosophy is given so much importance, donkeys.

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya (end)

 

 

 

 

 

 

...is that nṛpa-liìga-dharaṁ śūdram. The śūdras, fourth-class men, they are on the government executive. This is one defect. And another defect is ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā, maintaining large-scale slaughterhouse. These are the two defects of modern civilization. They..., on the top of government there are śūdras, not kṣatriyas. Neither they are guided by intelligent class, brāhmaṇas. Parīkṣit Mahārāja's first beginning is dvija-varya-śikṣayā. The guidance was first-class brāhmaṇas, and he was a kṣatriya, first-class. And there was no animal slaughterhouse. They are also suffering. They are bringing every day some problem. "What is the solution of this problem, what is this solution...?" But why the problems are coming? Because the defect is there that the, on the head of the government there are śūdras and they are busy in cow-killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. This is the defect. And they are not guided by the first-class, intelligent class of men…Therefore I am advising that purchase land and produce our own food. There will be no problem.

                 So if you have got grains and milk, you have got enough food and there is no problem. You haven't got to go fifty miles for your work, and then you require a tin car. So many problems. But if you get your food at home, then eat them and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Simple thing.

 

The beginning, by eating food grains, you become strong. The animals become strong. Then, when you become strong, you perform yajïa, and from yajïa, there is cloud, and from cloud, there is rain, and from rain, there is food grains. This is the cakra.

 

India is, India's culture is plain living, high thinking. You require some food. Produce food, and take it, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they'll not accept, "Oh, this is primitive. Nowadays we have got... We must have the motor car, motor tire."

 

The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra.

 

So in our society, this division should be there…So in this way, our society should be managed.

According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical?

 

Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varṇāśrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

 

But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement.

 

...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared--Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja--for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?

 

So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management.

 

Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis...

                         So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, then it will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

But we should take little advantage of the inclination.

                 

This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school required.

But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position.

 

But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama.

 

I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

 

Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

 

So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

 

Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method--varṇāśrama.

 

Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple…

 

But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat."

 

You should remain always sannyāsī within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama; we are above varṇāśrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done.

 

We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work…Most auspicious.                                                                                                                                                                                                          .                      Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain.

They'll automatically come if you are ideal.

 

But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it…Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?

 

…We, we are prepared to offer everything. And be Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our mission. Not by eating and sleeping, become rogues and thieves and rascals. That we will not allow. That is varṇāśrama-dharma.

 

...all round, for the benefit of the human society. You'll be honored everywhere. Everywhere, any part of the world.

 

So they should be drawn: "Come on! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plough." Not that you become Rūpa Gosvāmī simply by smoking. They are thinking they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī lived like that. So they think by changing the cloth, loincloth, they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī.

 

Yes, because they're wasting time. Better produce some food. At least, your food. You are living at the cost of others. What is the value of your philosophy?…This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava shall work hard, undergo all tribulation, for others.

 

So in our society there should be no diplomacy, no politics. Everyone should be eager how to do good to others. That is Vaiṣṇava. If he's planning something, that "I shall be leader," "I shall be doing something," that is not Vaiṣṇavism. That politics is not good.

 

Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract.

 

There is no devotee in India, real devotee, at the present moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By our living example we’ll have to attract.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME SEVEN

Morning Walk                                           December 21, 1973, Los Angeles                                                  361992

Jagajjīvana: So they will see the potency of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...many devotees. Sixty, seventy devotees. And Viṣṇujana Mahārāja was there with Rādhā-Dāmodara. He is doing very nicely. And then I stopped in Atlanta to see Balavanta Prabhu, and he has got a big office now.

Prabhupāda: Election?

Jagajjīvana: Yes. He is thinking of running for Congress next. (break) And that was very nice.

Prabhupāda: Students are doing very nice?

Jagajjīvana: Oh yes. I was there before when Amarendra ran for mayor in Dallas. I helped him with that. And I got a chance to associate with the children there. And they have made so much advancement since last I was there.

Prabhupāda: They are now chanting ślokas very nice?

Jagajjīvana: Yes. Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very well. And Hiraṇyagarbha Prabhu is teaching them Sanskrit and English. But mostly they like kīrtana. They become very ecstatic during kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: That is real business.

Morning Walk                                          December 30, 1973, Los Angeles                                                   362049

Prajāpati: In this morning's class you were giving us the example of the takeover of the kingship, of the brāhmaṇas getting rid of a bad king. So many times in the literature you've given us, whether Kṛṣṇa killing His uncle King Kaṁsa, or the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and Arjuna in the Battle of Kurukṣetra killing the old political regime that are demoniac consciousness. Is this the recommended means in Vedic literature for getting rid of bad government, or are there other means that are described, that one can get rid of demoniac government and take over with godly rulers?

Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that--and that is a fact--that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he thought that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese.

Nitāi: Who went out of India?

Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without revolution, (indistinct), you cannot change old order. "Old orders changes giving place to new." That old order changes... Everywhere it is by violence. The Mahābhārata also, the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa was there. He tried to settle up. But it was not settled without violence. Paritrāṇāya... What is that? Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Kṛṣṇa also comes, vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, to, for killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa also comes.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: (break) ...will be overthrown and replaced with God conscious beings.

Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot find good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here (are) not starving.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, I have seen.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In other governments the people are starving. They have no food. That is the worst government. First necessity of life, that one must eat, one must have shelter, but other governments cannot even do that. But in your country, you have got enough food, enough shelter, everything is there. That consideration, your government is very nice government. Bare necessities of life must be supplied. Here the fault is extravagancy.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Too much.

Prabhupāda: Too much, yes. Luxury leads to poverty. Too much luxury. Now it will deteriorate.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was reading in one of the books you translated that you said that as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the mentality of all of the people in that area, they lose their desires for material enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: No. Material enjoyment, you enjoy, but not like cats and dogs. You enjoy material life like human being. That is our proposal. Not like cats and dogs. Is it not enjoyment when you sit down in the Deity room and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read philosophy? It is not enjoyment?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, it is very nice.

Prabhupāda: So this is human enjoyment. And to go to the brothel and drink and fight and talk all nonsense, is that enjoyment?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.

Prabhupāda: That is cats' and dogs' enjoyment. We must enjoy like human being. Enjoyment is not denied. Why should we deny?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will more of a desire to live simply.

Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.

Devotee: Even while he's eating, he's still...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows how to do it. Therefore I was explaining the other day, that for eating, for sleeping, for having sex intercourse and to defend, there is no use of education. Everyone knows automatically. But at the present moment, the whole education is on this point. Real education, what is life, what is goal of life, they do not know. This is the point.

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the little children now, their favorite game is to play Śrīla Prabhupāda. They will make a vyāsāsana, the children, and one will play you and they'll sit on it and get a gong, and they'll have play cookies, and the other children will come and take the cookies. They play like that. Then they hold class. They have a Bhagavad-gītā, and they'll chant oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. And then after that they will just make up, nu na boyl car, (as if chanting) like that. (Prabhupāda laughs) (pause)

Prabhupāda: (break) ...where is their food? Immediately, just see.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: The food and the sand looks exactly the same. So how they are immediately able to tell which is which?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see their intelligence. You are very much proud of your intelligence. Just see their intelligence. Everyone is intelligent. Therefore actual intelligence is he who knows Kṛṣṇa. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He has got intelligence. You cannot deny that. But he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. You have got intelligence; you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you don't use your intelligence for understanding Kṛṣṇa, you are nothing but cats and dogs. Kṛpaṇa. They are called kṛpaṇas. Kṛpaṇa means miser. One has got money, but he does not know how to utilize it. He is called kṛpaṇa, miser. They are so rascal that they cannot conceive that there is something as God and He can be known. Hopeless. That is the real point. Otherwise why so many scientists are...? They know, "This is idea only. There is nothing like God. So let us put our theories." That's all. That is your business, theology. They are so rubbish. That was the first publication in (the Village) Voice paper. They wrote when I first began in 1965 that "We thought that God is dead, but Swamiji has brought God with kīrtana." They admitted this. I think the paper, you have got copy. You can see it. It said exactly like this, that "We thought God is dead, but here we see, Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought God in kīrtana." That's it.

                                                                

Morning Walk                                        December 31, 1973, Los Angeles                                                     362118

Prabhupāda: ...theologician?

Prajāpati: Here I am, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No theory?

Prajāpati: Actually, I was concerned this morning about inflation. The government and the newspapers, they say the biggest problem today is inflation. From our Kṛṣṇa conscious standpoint, how can we cure this problem of inflation?

Prabhupāda: It is very simple. Don't accept paper currency. It must be gold or some metal worth. Just like one dollar, it must be worth one dollar metal. Then it is solved. But they want to cheat. How it can be solved? Because if I pay you one dollar, I must pay you value for one dollar. But it is the cheating process is going on, "I pay you one dollar, a piece of paper. That's all." So you accept cheating, and I also cheat. Government allows. So how the problem can be solved? It is cheating. But the government allows it as law. And you accept, I accept. Then how they can be solved, solution? This is the solution.

Prajāpati: In the economy itself there isn't actually enough money to, that's even in the banks...

Prabhupāda: That is cheating. Therefore I say cheating. I have no money. I give you simply paper. I promise to pay hundred dollars. What is the use of that promise if I have no money? But you want to be cheated. I cheat you. That's all. You are satisfied of being cheated by me; so I take the advantage and I cheat you. I give you a paper. That's all.

Bahulāśva: Real money is gold and silver.

Prabhupāda: Any... It must be value. According to the market price, it must be value. Whatever it may be. Gold is taken, because gold is the most valuable metal. A small piece of gold, it can carry two hundred dollars. But if I give you iron, then you have to bring another, what is called, bus, to carry it. (laughter) So therefore gold standard is accepted everywhere. There is a standard price of gold, so when I pay you money, it must be, carry the value in gold. That's all. Then there is no inflation. The people want to be cheated, and people cheat. That's all.

Bahulāśva: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda, you say that Kali became gold standardized.

Prabhupāda: That is another point. That one who has gold, he can purchase these four kinds of sinful activities: meat-eating, gambling, intoxication, illicit sex. If you have money, you can get illicit sex from big, big quarters. Is it not?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The sinful activities have increased because the world has produced too much wealth. Because they can purchase sinful activities. And that is being increased by inflation. False money I have got, and with that false money I can purchase all this illicit sex, wine, intoxication, and... It is just like nowadays, bank is giving you a card, "Americard..." What is that?

Karandhara: Charge card. Bank Americard.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So you simply show the card, you get the goods. So to exchange, it has become very cheap. So cheaply you can purchase. Therefore cheaply you can purchase sinful things also. The people are becoming sinful. The modern economy is, "Engage people in hard working to produce, and by artificial cheating, secure the goods, commodities." This is modern economy. So a worker is getting three thousand dollar per month, but he is getting paper. But he is thinking that "I am getting money." He is giving his labor, and things are being produced. This is the policy. "Cheat him. Without giving money, give him paper, and get his labor, and produce goods." This is modern economy. Is it not? A laborer, a worker, is given high salary, high wages. So what he is getting? It is paper. And he is very enthusiastic to give his labor. So production is more. And when you go to purchase the products, then you have to pay again. Whatever you have earned, you have to pay everything, pay to the bank or pay to the man. Simply cheating process is going on. There is no solution. People are cheaters. They have been taught how to cheat. Everyone has got a cheating propensity. That is conditioned life. Four defects: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat and imperfectness of the senses. So cheating propensity everyone has got. So that cheating propensity is being encouraged more and more. Instead of minimizing it or stop it, it is being encouraged.

Bahulāśva: So unless they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there is no solution.

Prabhupāda: No. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good quality in human society unless accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the... This dog is thinking that we may not cheat him, from the back we may not attack him. Just see. Therefore he is stopping.

Bahulāśva: He doesn't know that you are the ever well-wisher, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you are going to carry the message to the government?

Prajāpati: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're working on a...

Prabhupāda: That issue metal coin and the problem will be solved. But they will not take your advice.

Prajāpati: This is part of our platform. To even run for political office, we need solutions to the problems to offer as a platform. We will draw up various bills, ready for legislation, show them that we are serious.

Prabhupāda: So how you'll present it? The cheating process is going on. Unless you become God conscious, the cheating process will not stop. So there is no solution.

Prajāpati: So therefore we introduce bill into the schools to introduce God consciousness to all the children there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God consciousness. Then everyone will be honest, and everything will be adjusted. Everyone can understand this is pure cheating. I give you a hundred dollars, a piece of paper. That's all. And you accept it. You want to be cheated. You thought, that "I have got now daily, hundred dollars. So let me work very hard." He does not consider that "I am not getting a hundred dollars. I am getting a piece of paper." So people have no brain to understand even. "This is not hundred dollars. Give me cash, hundred dollars." Then everything, solution will be... There will be no inflation. Because I know that paying you a piece of paper, I can cheat you, therefore I am printing notes, to cheat so many people. Therefore inflation. But when there will be no possibility to cheat you, then there will be no inflation. Here I have got the opportunity, because I know that pushing forward a piece of paper, I can cheat so many people. So there must be inflation. Is it not? This is not psychological? If I know that I can cheat you by this instrument, so why shall I not increase that? That is inflation. What do you think, Karandhara?

Karandhara: That's the basic principle, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am cheating you, and people accepting my cheating.

Karandhara: The governments actually started the whole thing. They instituted paper money and they instituted it because it is a cheating process. But everyone is participating. So it is just going on and on. That is the real cause of inflation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. They are getting encouragement in their cheating business.

Bahulāśva: They won't let you have any gold.

Prabhupāda: Now they have made law that you cannot store gold?

Karandhara: That's been since 1933.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Karandhara: Americans cannot own gold, store gold. Pretty soon they are going to pass the same law for silver.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Even they cannot have ornaments.

Karandhara: Well, you can have ornaments, jewelry.

Prabhupāda: So by law they are cheating. So how you can stop?

Karandhara: Now they have introduced a law that even the penny, which is the smallest denomination, it used to made out of copper, so now they are going to make it out of aluminum, because copper is too expensive.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Bahulāśva: It will be worth less than a penny when it is made out of aluminum.

Prabhupāda: Why not cement? (laughter) Because by law everything will be acceptable. Make it cement.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what can we do to curb down these rascals?

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bahulāśva: That will curb them down.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be purified. The more you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they will be purified. This is... All problems are there on account of misunderstanding. What we are distributing? We are simply moving misunderstanding and bringing them to knowledge. This is our propaganda. So Mr. Theologician, is this suggestion appealing to you?

Prajāpati: It seems all right for ordinary dealings, Śrīla Prabhupāda, having this money, what's going on, but for large scale transactions it might be very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Prajāpati: And as the practical basis, transactions of thousands and thousands of dollars, would be...

Prabhupāda: That will be good for the people. Because large scale transaction is there, therefore the capitalists hoarding. Capitalists hoarding. Goods are there, everything is there. You pay black price, you get it. Then, when somebody's hoarding, he is not giving to the market. So if the large scale industry and trade becomes stopped, that is good for people.

Jagajjīvana: Does that mean the same amount of gold is here?

Prabhupāda: No, larger scale... Suppose if you want to store, say, thousand kilos or a thousand bags of rice, so you have to pay me gold. But you have no such gold. Therefore large scale industry will be stopped. Just see.

Karandhara: Then the price of rice would go very low.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you get actual price and actual value. Goods are there, any part of the world you..., there is enough commodity. But these rascals, they are hoarding, and they are not giving in right time. So people are suffering.

Karandhara: Yes. There's a... They buy now. They buy the goods before they are even grown, from the commodity market.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they can pay in this paper, the bank will advance. So as soon as you... You have to introduce this metal coins, value. The whole cheating scheme will fail.

Jagajjīvana: In the past there was a lot of gold on the planet. What has happened to it? There used to be a lot of gold on the planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They used as utensil, as household pots. Just like now you are advanced, using plastic, because you have become very advanced. So you are using plastic. They were using gold.

Jagajjīvana: So what has happened to that gold?

Prabhupāda: What happened? If you keep utensil at home, what happens? You eat nicely on the plate. That's all. Why you are concerned, what happening? It is in your store. That's all. And gold is such a metal, any part of the country, any part of the world you go, you get immediately value.

Karandhara: Yes. Whenever there is an economic depression, then gold remains valuable. Just like when the stock market crashed in 1929, if you had gold you could still purchase goods. No matter how bad the economy was, people would accept gold as barter, but not currency.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian economy was that if you have got extra money, you get gold ornament for your wife. So then your money is stocked there. Or purchase some utensils, silver utensils. That was Indian economy. This depositing in the bank and thinking that I am getting good interest, that is another cheating. It is another cheating. If things are not available, what will you get by getting interest? Therefore I am advising that purchase land and produce our own food. There will be no problem.

Karandhara: The inflation rate is higher than the interest rate. If you earn 5 3.4 % interest in a year, the inflation has gone up 6% in a year. So actually your money, at best it's kept the same.

Prabhupāda: The money is to be kept in cattle and grains. That is Indian economy, cattle and grains. If you have got many cows, you get milk. Milk preparation. And if you have got grain, then where is your problem? You prepare your foodstuff at home and eat and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is your problem? You want to eat and live peacefully. So if you have got grains and milk, you have got enough food and there is no problem. You haven't got to go fifty miles for your work, and then you require a tin car. So many problems. But if you get your food at home, then eat them and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Simple thing.

Prajāpati: So many people now employed in sinful activities, jobs that are to do with sinful life. If we get rid of these sinful activities, what will we find for these people to do to replace their jobs?

Prabhupāda: Do pious activities. Do you mean to say we have to continue sinful activities for their job? (laughter)

Prajāpati: They say like that.

Prabhupāda: No, we shall give engagement.

Prajāpati: Cattle industry, liquor industry, tobacco industry, all these big industries.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be without industry. Come to us. We shall give them food. Yes. Just like that... What is that? Mṛgāri, Mṛgāri. He was thinking that "Unless I kill animals, how I will eat, I shall live?" And Nārada gave him, that "I will give you to eat. Come here." So he became Vaiṣṇava. So that is our propaganda." Stop this nonsense business. If you think that 'How you shall eat?' I shall give you eating. Come on. "This is our program." First of all you stop it. Then I will, see how I will give you." Just see. When I came first I was alone. I had no shelter, no food. And how we are maintaining now thousands of people, and giving them to eat, and nice shelter? How it is possible? It is possible. Because after all, Kṛṣṇa gives everything. So if they become Kṛṣṇized, everything will come. Why they bother about the sinful activities?

Viṣṇujana: Dhanaïjaya. Like you said this morning, Dhanaïjaya.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Dhanaïjaya.

Viṣṇujana: Kṛṣṇa will tell us where to...

Prabhupāda: Yes, where to get money. We have solution for all problems. Don't bother. Go on with Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Do you think our solutions, all impractical?

Prajāpati: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They are not impractical.

Prabhupāda: Then, what do you think?

Karandhara: They are the only practical solution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: The karmīs are always saying there is no solution.

Prabhupāda: We say we have got solution.

Bahulāśva: They don't want the solution, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They want to be cheated. That's all.

Bahulāśva: Just like now is the gasoline problem. Now the scientists want to use sun energy. They want to make a new energy, solar energy, from the sun.

Prabhupāda: That is another bluff.

Bahulāśva: We were preaching in Mexico that "You simply perform the saìkīrtana-yajïa and Kṛṣṇa will supply all energy."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the source of all energy.

Karandhara: Most economists, they realize that the economy is very faulty and superficial, but they say, "Well, that's the way it is. So I'm going to take advantage of it while I can."

Prabhupāda: Why not take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and try it? As you are trying so many method, why not try this?

Viṣṇujana: They say, "We want to regress and become like India." If everyone becomes devotees, then they'll all walk around like us and regress.

Prabhupāda: There is no devotee in India, real devotee, at the present moment.

Viṣṇujana: So they classify us like that. They say, "You Hare Kṛṣṇa people, you want to take us back to cholera and dysentery and everything."

Prabhupāda: But you are already suffering from cancer. What you have done? (laughter) Instead of cholera, you have got cancer. Is that very good exchange?

Viṣṇujana: One out of eight men has venereal disease.

Prabhupāda: From frying pan to the fire. Cholera has got some remedy, but here there is no remedy. Hm? What is that?

Viṣṇujana: In this country they have the venereal disease. One out of ten men is suffering gonorrhea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Long ago one professor, medical professor, he said, he was Englishman--that in our country, 75% students are suffering from venereal disease. Colonel Megor (?). Yes. Colonel Megor. There must be venereal disease because sex life is so cheap. There must be venereal disease. And venereal disease, once infected, it brings so many other diseases, one after another, one after another. The cancer is also due to that. Madness. Yes. And the Vedic civilization knew it. Therefore first restriction: sex. Brahmacārī. First beginning, brahmacārī. No sex life. You see? Just to save. This venereal disease is mentioned in the Āyur-veda. It is called phiraìgāmaya. Phiraìga means "white Europeans." It is diseased... And medical science also says that it was begun from dog. The girls, they have sex life with dog and there is the beginning of venereal disease.

Viṣṇujana: Yes, from animal. Ass, dog, cow.

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. So the girl becomes infected, and she distributes to all men who have sex life with... This is the beginning of sex life. And in Mexico I have heard that they regularly make theatrical demonstration, how a woman is getting sex with ass. Is it?

Bahulāśva: Yes. That is in Tijuana.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda told me. People have become so degraded. They make regular show, how sex life can be enjoyed with animals.

Bahulāśva: That is abominable.

South American Devotee: In South of Argentina, the soldiers, they have sex life with different animals. The army. When they are so long alone without..., and they have...

Prabhupāda: The government allow?

South American Devotee: Oh yeah.

Prabhupāda: It is legal. Just see. Where it is?

South American Devotee: South Argentina.

Prabhupāda: Now, if you analyze the present human society, you will find there is not a single human being. All animals. All animals. Not a single human being. (Bengali) What is time now?

Bahulāśva: Nine o'clock, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So let us go. (break) People, they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the difficulty.

Viṣṇujana: Yes. From childhood they are taught sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not know that for sense gratification, enough facility is there in the animal kingdom. So if you want to give facility for sense gratification, does it mean that you want to become more than or less than animal? Not more than.

Viṣṇujana: They want dog's life. They think dog's life is good life. They have to work hard and the dog stays at home all day and enjoys in their nice big house. So they think, "I would be better to be the dog."

Prabhupāda: So they have become. But when he becomes street dog? That means he has to depend on good master. Big apartment for dog means he belongs to the master. So he has to find out a good master. But if he fails to find out a good master, then he's street dog. Dog's life is good, provided he gets a good master. So therefore we have decided to become dog of Kṛṣṇa, (laughter) the best master. And the master says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: "I will give you protection." So why not become dog of Kṛṣṇa?

Prajāpati: He will be flea a on Kṛṣṇa's dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone will be fleas. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Öhākura sings, vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura, boliyā jānaha more. "O Vaiṣṇava, please accept me as your dog." Because to become Kṛṣṇa's dog, one has to become the dog of a Vaiṣṇava. Then he will be admitted as Kṛṣṇa's dog. Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura, boliyā jānaha more.

Boy passer-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yells out loudly)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Bahulāśva: Advancement.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you answer them, "Yes, you become a dog, but you become a dog of a good master." What is the use of becoming dog of another dog? Then what profit will be there? Is it not? We are... Actually every one of us is dog. And we are trying to satisfy so many masters. The masters are our senses. We are already dog, everyone, because everyone is servant of the senses, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. So everyone is dog. Now he has to remain a dog, but by becoming dog of these senses, he is not happy. Find out a good master, and become a dog. You become happy. This is our philosophy. And the best master is Kṛṣṇa. We are also trying to be dog, but not of another dog, but real master. That is our philosophy. What is the use of becoming a dog of another dog? That is not proper. Here the material world is that "I am dog, I have got a master, and the master has got another master. He has got another master, he has got another master." Nobody can say that "I am Absolute." Nobody can say. That is not possible. You must have a master. Therefore everyone is a dog. So why don't you find out the Absolute master, the biggest master? And that is God. "God is great." Capture Him, master. Then you will be happy. That is intelligence. When one comes to his senses, that "I have served so many masters. Neither the master has become happy, neither I have become happy." That is frustration. Everyone. The master is not happy. You serve any master. Ask him, "Are you satisfied?" And, "What you have done, that I will be satisfied? You have to do so many things." So he is not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. Then to become dog of this ordinary master will never give us satisfaction. Always frustration. Just become the dog of the supreme master. You will be happy. Supreme master is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mahāprabhu. Prabhu means master. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name, Mahāprabhu, "the supreme master."

Viṣṇujana: He is easily pleased.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. (end

 

Morning Walk                                           January 3, 1974, Los Angeles                                                        362237

Prabhupāda: ...is that nṛpa-liìga-dharaṁ śūdram. The śūdras, fourth-class men, they are on the government executive. This is one defect. And another defect is ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā, maintaining large-scale slaughterhouse. These are the two defects of modern civilization. They..., on the top of government there are śūdras, not kṣatriyas. Neither they are guided by intelligent class, brāhmaṇas. Parīkṣit Mahārāja's first beginning is dvija-varya-śikṣayā. The guidance was first-class brāhmaṇas, and he was a kṣatriya, first-class. And there was no animal slaughterhouse. They are also suffering. They are bringing every day some problem. "What is the solution of this problem, what is this solution...?" But why the problems are coming? Because the defect is there that the, on the head of the government there are śūdras and they are busy in cow-killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. This is the defect. And they are not guided by the first-class, intelligent class of men. (break)

Prajāpati: ...getting worse over these five thousand years, but by a reintroduction, reintroducing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the tide can be turned in age of Kali?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only remedy. That is the only remedy. Anyone who takes to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be cleansed of all sinful activities and then everything will come out nice. And it is practical. It is not story. Just see, all our disciples in Europe, America, they were habituated to so many bad habits, and because they are chanting, they are now cleansed. So it is small-scale. If you propagate it large-scale, everyone will be cleansed.

 

Morning Walk                                           January 10, 1974, Los Angeles                                                      362822

Satsvarūpa: We always say that the best way to water the tree is from the root, but he says that the way that nature actually waters is from the top.

Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the top water comes?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By evaporation of the ocean.

Prabhupāda: And who kept the ocean? You go on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By nature.

Prabhupāda: Then you come to somebody. That is foolishness. Then nature is not ultimate. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate. Because you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, therefore you say, "Nature."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa says, "Nature is under My control."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like an equilibrium, Śrīla Prabhupāda. In science it is called equilibrium, means this on and off...

Prabhupāda: It is called cakra. What is that? In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahma-cakra, brahma-cakra. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is realization, that in every action there is brahman. The beginning, by eating food grains, you become strong. The animals become strong. Then, when you become strong, you perform yajïa, and from yajïa, there is cloud, and from cloud, there is rain, and from rain, there is food grains. This is the cakra.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cycle.

Prabhupāda: Cycle, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the symptom of material nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this yajïa means to satisfy the Lord. Yajïārthe karma. So when you miss this yajïa, then everything becomes disturbed. When you become godless then the whole thing will be disturbed. And practically also, if you pay income tax, then government arrangement is everything, nicely going on. And as soon as stop income tax, then whole thing... There is no finance, there is deficit, this, that, so many things. So yajïa is yajïārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. Everything should be done for the Yajïa, for Viṣṇu. Then everything is in order. In Kali-yuga, other, costly yajïas are not possible. Therefore yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Saìkīrtana. But these rascals will not take. If you say that "This simple yajïa, you take it. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. All problems will be solved," they will not believe. They will not take it. They are so misfortunate. Śāstra says, yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got good brain, they take up this yajïa process. Su-medhasaḥ. And another word is alpa-medhasaḥ, less brain substance. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. They are doing all other things, but not yajïa. Therefore alpa-medhasām: their brain substance is small. And here is su-medhasaḥ. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. That is the sign of merit: You do something which will produce good result. And if you, cats and dogs, if you simply jump over, what you will do result? That Lilavati Munshi of Bombay, she is the wife of a big man, K. Munshi. So she was asking, "Swamiji, how you made like this?" Everyone is surprised because nobody has done like this. I said that "Because I have taken the proper method, therefore it is done so nicely." The method must be right. It may be simple, but it must be right method.

Yaśomatīnandana: She is Gujarati, Lilavati Munshi?

Prabhupāda: Ah yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, yes. She invited me this time.

Yaśomatīnandana: She is writer, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes. She is very educated. Now, her husband made very great attempt for publishing book, but there is no sufficient customer. Now the press is going to be sold, and nobody customer. That is letter-setting press. Now it is obsolete. So they were perplexed. She wanted that I shall purchase. And what shall I do with this press? Letter setting is now abolished. That is not good job now. There must be litho press or, what is called, offset. Yes.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if... Since Kṛṣṇa is the power that gives the demigods the ability to render everything, then why is it recommended in the Nectar of Devotion that a Vaiṣṇava should worship Gaṇapati?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa worship, everyone. Just like we worship also ordinary man if it gives us facility to worship Kṛṣṇa. We go to somebody and worship him, flatter him, because he will give some money, and it will be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. The man is not worshipable, but he will help us to worship Kṛṣṇa. Thereby he will be helped and we will be also helped, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied that "My devotee has brought some money from this rascal. All right." That is... (laughter) So Gaṇapati is also devotee. So Gaṇapati, it is not required, but sometimes we do. Just like gopīs, they worshipped Goddess Durgā, Kātyāyanī. They did not require, but the social system is that. But they asked that Mother Kātyāyanī, give us the opportunity to have Kṛṣṇa as our husband." The aim is Kṛṣṇa. Generally, they go to worship Devī Durgā for asking material benefit. Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi yaśo dehi, the things which we want in material... But the gopīs, they do not go for any material things. For Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, we can go to any demigod. Why Gaṇapati? Everyone. But our prayer should be, "Please give us Kṛṣṇa." Then it is correct.

Gurukṛpā: When we were just traveling this last time and collecting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everyday we were offering some incense to Gaṇeśa, and this prayer in the Brahma-saṁhitā, yat-pāda-pallava...

Prabhupāda: Pallava-yugaṁ vinidhāya kumbha...

Gurukṛpā: We were saying this, saying, "Give us facility to collect nice lakṣmī to use to build the temple in Vṛndāvana."

Yaśodānandana: To build the temple for Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Whatever possible facility is available from any person, we beg for it for Kṛṣṇa's service, not for our personal benefit. (break) ...they forget Kṛṣṇa. They forget Kṛṣṇa. When they go to worship some other demigod, they forget Kṛṣṇa, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jïānāḥ, because they have got so strong material desires that they forget Kṛṣṇa. That is harmful. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. They get some benefit out of the demigod, but that will not stay. Alpavat, er, antavat. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. But if you take Kṛṣṇa, then it is not antavat, it will go on increasing. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never end. It will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, increasing. The ocean does not increase, but Kṛṣṇa consciousness is such a great ocean that it increases only. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam.

Candanācārya: Is it not better just to say, "Kṛṣṇa, whatever You decide. Whatever You give me, that I will accept." Like Kuntī.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I take from Kṛṣṇa? You should give.

Candanācārya: No, I mean. Instead of praying to demigods to give me something, saying, "Whatever you decide Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. No. A devotee never prays to Kṛṣṇa. They have to undergo so much trouble; still they never pray to Kṛṣṇa. They know that "Kṛṣṇa will give us ultimately protection. Let us do our duty." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ. When a devotee is in difficulty, he is not disturbed. He thinks, It is Kṛṣṇa's wish that I should suffer like like this. It is not suffering; it is my pleasure." Just like when a patient is undergoing surgical operation, there is pain, but he knows, "It is better for me." Therefore agrees, "Yes sir. You go on with your knife." So when you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection," so even in our distressed condition we must know that we are being protected by Kṛṣṇa. We should not be disturbed. Because we create so-called distress and happiness. Actually this world is distress. Here the so-called happiness is also distress. So why a devotee should be disturbed by distressed condition? Harer nāma harer nāma. (break)

Candanācārya: One time you said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not difficult, but to remain determined, that is difficult. Determination is difficult.

Prabhupāda: That determination comes by tapasya. Therefore we have got rules and regulation. If you follow the rules and regulation, then you will be determined. Otherwise, you will be victim of māyā. The rules and regulation is there just to keep you fixed up in your determination. But if you don't follow, then you fall down. Just like physician says, "You don't take this along with medicine. You take this." That is rules and regulation. If you follow, then you do not become victim of disease again. If you don't follow, then you... What the physician will do?

Candanācārya: But it also requires determination to follow the tapasya.

Prabhupāda: Then if he cannot, then he is cat and dog. He is not a human being. Why he should accept initiation? Let him remain a cat and dog. He promises to follow, and if he cannot follow, then he is nothing but cat and dog. In the court, they take promises, that "In the name of God," "In the name of Bible." So that means he will speak the truth. Similarly, before the fire, before Deity, before guru, before devotees, he is promising something, and if he does not follow, then he is cat and dog. He cannot advance. It is not possible. That is the distinction between cat and dog and human being. Cat and dog, they cannot promise. It is not possible. But a human being can promise. And if he keeps his promise, then he is human being. Otherwise cat and dog. Word of honor. The cats and dogs, they have no sense of honor. Either you kick him or pat, he does not know what is the difference. That is cat and dog. He does not know the distinction. A human being knows what is promise, what is word of honor. (break)

Yaśodānandana: ...you mentioned that the vaiśyas, they are considered to be the capitalists and the śūdras, they are considered to be the Communist. And you mentioned that eventually the communists will take over the capitalists. So how long do you think that will happen?

Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu. Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: "Give up all nonsense engagement. Just become My devotee," we say like that. But if somebody does not give, give up, also not, then Kṛṣṇa also does not interfere. Let him suffer. (break) ...how long one suffers. He can stop his suffering immediately, but if he does not take the medicine, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. If Kṛṣṇa withdraws all his sinful activities, then where is the question of suffering? But he will not do. Now, because he is not surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa, so he is suffering from time immemorial, and nobody can say how long he will suffer. He will go on suffering. It cannot stop. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mūòha: "Rascal." Na māṁ prapadyante mūòhāḥ. He does not know, by simply surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, everything will be nice. That he does not know. And if you advise, he will not accept. matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. That is explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that "These rascals who have got this idea that 'By adjustment, we shall be happy in this material world,' they will never understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will never understand because their aim is..." That picture we gave in Back to Godhead, anchor? Yes. Their anchor is to remain here and enjoy. That is their main disease. They do not... Just like the Russian aereonautic has gone so high, he was seeing, "Where is Moscow?" The anchor is there in the Moscow. Therefore he has to come down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aìghrayaḥ. So everyone wants to keep this anchor of this material attachment. They say that "Yes, I am ready to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness, provided Kṛṣṇa gives us so many material..." Just like in Germany. So many women went to pray in the Second World War, "Oh, my husband may come back, my father may come back." But nobody came back. And all of them became atheists. You see? They take Kṛṣṇa, or God, as their servant, not to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, that "I prayed so much, 'Kṛṣṇa, God, give us our daily bread.' And He did not give. Therefore give it up."

 

Morning Walk                                               January 18, 1974, Hawaii                                                          363368

Prabhupāda: That is another māyā's illusion. Unless he thinks it is pleasureable, how he can tolerate? Just like the pig, eating stool. Everyone is thinking, "Aoww", but unless he thinks pleasurable, how he can eat? That is another concession of māyā. Praksepātmikā, āvaraṇātmikā. He's covered by illusion. He is accepting the most abominable thing, but he's thinking, "I'm enjoying." This is called māyā.

Nitāi: Sometimes we tell them that this life is only full of miseries, and they say, "What do you mean?"

Prabhupāda: No, that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They do not know, they do not distinguish what is misery and what is happiness. They have no sense, no brain. That is their foolishness.

Nitāi: So we can convince them by pointing out...?

Prabhupāda: They cannot convince them because they are so rascal, so foolish, that they have no brain to understand what is the distinction. They have no brain. Just like cats and dogs. That is their fallen condition. Yes.

Sudāmā: They believe that this misery is good.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have explained. Unless they believe it is good, how they can be put in to miserable condition? Just like some of the thieves. They go to jail. They think, "It is very nice. We haven't got to earn. We are getting food here, free of charge. Yes, it is very nice place. It is my father-in-law's house." (laughs) So unless they believe, how they can tolerate such tribulations? The worm in the stool, he believes, "This is enjoyment." You take it from the stool, put it here, no, it will go again. It thinks it is pleasurable. That is their position. Therefore they have been described as mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhaḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. When they believe it, "Oh, it is not good," that is their good fortune. Then they are fortunate. That is explained by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. When they come to that fortunate position, that is first-class.

Nitāi: How does one become "bhāgyavān"?

Prabhupāda: Bhāgyavān, opulent... If you earn money, you become bhāgyavān. Bhāgyavān means... The word has come from bhagavān, and bhaga means opulence, six kinds of opulence: riches... Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ. So one who possess all these things not exactly like Bhagavān, but partially, according to his position, he's called bhāgyavān.

Nitāi: But in this verse that you just quoted, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa brahmite kono bhagyavān, how does one come, become to the stage of...

Prabhupāda: We are making them bhāgyavān. We are giving them service, how to become bhāgyavān. We are spending our blood, gallons of blood, to make them bhāgyavān. This is the sacrifice of the devotees. Just like you are poor. Somebody, rich man, comes, "All right, take one million dollars from me." You get immediately rich. So it is the devotees' sacrifice that they're becoming... Just like Vāsudeva Datta. He requested Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "My Lord, you have come. Take away all these people, unfortunate people, back to home, back to Godhead. If You think they are so inglorious, they cannot be taken, then give me all their sins to me. I shall suffer. You take them." That is Vaiṣṇava. They are sacrificing everything for these unfortunate rascals. Therefore they are becoming very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu. Those who are sacrificing everything for giving, making fortunate these rascals, they become immediately very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Just like, if a rich man gives his money for public welfare, immediately he's recognized by the government, "Yes." He's given some title. Why? Because he has given his possession for the benefit of the public. Similarly, the devotees, they are distributing their possessions to these unfortunate people. Therefore he's immediately recognized. That is the process. But devotee does not want any recognition, but he knows that "My Lord wants this rascal to go back to home, back to Godhead. So let me try my best." He knows the mind of the master; otherwise, why the master comes and canvasses, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja? He has no business, but He wants that "These rascals are suffering in this material condition. They are My part and parcel, My sons. Let Me try." And devotee understands that "My Lord wants it. So let me do it on His behalf." Therefore devotee is so dear. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               January 19, 1974, Hawaii                                                          363386

Prabhupāda: ...spoil this tree. Everything, their business is spoiling.

Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: The day before yesterday we were driving down the road and we came across all of these coconut trees, and they were trimming them, and all the coconuts were up on the trees, but they were cutting them down, just letting them fall to the ground. And the the coconuts were cracking and just being wasted completely. And then they'd throw them in the garbage. And there's so much energy that Kṛṣṇa has provided here that they're just wasting.

Prabhupāda: As they are wasting, they will be punished. Kṛṣṇa's supply is being wasted. That will be punished (break) ...those coconuts...

Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: Coconut, you collect, and each one of you use at least two coconuts daily, drinking water and the pulp. It is very digestive and nutritious. The pulp is very nutritious and digestive. If you simply take the pulp from two sides and drink that water, you don't require to eat anything. It is so nutritious. So better collect, and so long you can get them, use two coconuts daily yourself.

 

Morning Walk                                              February 17, 1974, Bombay                                                      363961

Guest (3): But Swamiji, sexual intercourse after marriage is against law of Manu?

Prabhupāda: No, that is also... There is law. You cannot have sexual intercourse with wife as you like, no. That is also illicit sex. Then... When the woman is in menstrual period, after five days, you can have once. As soon as she is pregnant, no more sexual intercourse. This is human being. Not that like animal. Animals also, they have got restrictions. You see? The lions, they have sexual intercourse once in life. Once in life. Brahmacārī. You see? So as soon as you violate the laws, then you are animal. Because law is meant for man. Just like "Keep to the right" and "left" in the road. It is meant for human being, not for the dogs. Dog, if he keeps right or left, it is not under law. But if you keep your car instead of left to the right, then you are criminal. (pause) So which way we have to go?... Human life begins when he understands what is dharma. That is human life, beginning. Aushikha (?) (Hindi) Jaiye aur Hindu religion hai, Muslim religion hai, Christian religion hai, Buddhist religion hai, Jewish religion hai. The religion must be there. But when we give up this religious process, then there is no more human life; it is animal life. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Girirāja: So by that, there's a emblem of the theosophical colony.

Prabhupāda: I see. Oh, yes, yes. (break) One old lady... You know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that "They have become my guests." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said, "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none. So it requires intelligence, that "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. (Hindi:) Ek sat me dekhila. (break) ...unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool, there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? (Hindi) You do your duty as human being. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ sa... Don't become animal. That is required. (Hindi) (break) ...the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is... (Hindi) (break) That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible.

 

 

Morning Walk                                            February 23, 1974, Bombay                                                         364643

Prabhupāda: This is also very good, good in this sense that they do not eat without restriction. There is some restriction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To sacrifice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That if you want to eat meat and chicken, then you first of all sacrifice before that deity. So at least they'll be restricted from eating meat purchased from slaughterhouse. But this rascal civilization, one side they're advertising "Stop cruelty to animals," another side they're opening unrestricted slaughterhouse. Just see. One side they're allowing marriage of woman every week, another side contraceptive. Just see their contradiction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...there is animal sacrifice in the church. Is there any such pre...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jews, they have got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That was one of the things that Jesus was against.

Prabhupāda: Shocked. Yes.

                                                                                                                                                                        364747

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science... Anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Ākāśa-patana. There is a science, ākāśa-patana. Kapota-vāyu. Kapota-vāyu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will, you'll fly in the sky.

                                                                                                                                                                        364805

Prabhupāda: He's... just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call: "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh,...," the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no! I don't say I think guru...

Prabhupāda: Guru...

Dr. Patel: I don't understand and you also don't understand me. I mean to say that disciples have got to take guru as God, and not this body as God. His ātmā is guru, and ātmā is God. So guru in that way is God.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not...

Dr. Patel: That is what I think.

Prabhupāda: No!

Dr. Patel: And I don't think I am wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, why God...? Why do you make...? Why do you distinguish between guru's ātmā and guru's body?

Dr. Patel: But the body... But the body's not guru!

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: Even if you say guru is body,...

Prabhupāda: They make also Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside different.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is different from your body and my body. Kṛṣṇa body is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you make a... Once you say that guru is equal to Kṛṣṇa, and again Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa is not different, but guru's body and guru's soul is different.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: No. That's not right.

Dr. Patel: Ātmā is, ātmā is guru...

Prabhupāda: That's not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity.

Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Kṛṣṇa's body are different.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is spiritual. His, any part of His body...

Prabhupāda: The Māyāvādīs do that, that Kṛṣṇa...

Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody, by His anything.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. I mean to say that sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. When you accept guru equal to Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot make such distinction.

Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction...

Prabhupāda: Then why bodily or anything!?

Dr. Patel: It is very important.

Prabhupāda: It is the... No, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc...

Dr. Patel: The body, this body...

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya...

Dr. Patel: ...becomes ill and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Body, that... If...

Dr. Patel: But that, Kṛṣṇa's body is not that body.

Prabhupāda: Not only, not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.

Dr. Patel: That's... From higher stand point of view.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru?

Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right.

Prabhupāda: No, no! Even the material body's there...

Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this...

Prabhupāda: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got an iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red-hot, it is no more iron stick. It is fire. Do you accept this?

Dr. Patel: I accept it.

Prabhupāda: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Kṛṣṇa thought, his body is not material.

Dr. Patel: That way you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes! Yes, that is the way.

Dr. Patel: Now I understand.

Prabhupāda: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red-hot, that it is no more working as iron rod. It is working as fire.

Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So guru also does the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Therefore, therefore he has no material body.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: It is aparādha. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. This is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye śilā-dhīr... Just like everyone knows... The atheist class will say, "Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupāda: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara... Similarly guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ.

Dr. Patel: That is how the guru can be accepted by...

Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that "Here is a stone statue." Then so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when... So... We have got millions of temples. Especially in South India and Jagannātha Purī and many where. So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guru should not be considered in that way. If he's actually guru.

Dr. Patel: Guru, guru's śakti on his disciples comes from...

Prabhupāda: The same.

Dr. Patel: ...either way. Where the śiṣya draws his power and guru gives it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?

Dr. Patel: But... That is what I say. So we have to take guru as God.

Prabhupāda: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.

Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I...

Prabhupāda: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction...

Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not. It is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru.

Dr. Patel: I want to learn from you.

Prabhupāda: I am not guru. I am... I am... This is... The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material.

Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavān becomes... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava and śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense.

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, to consider guru's body as material, that is also wrong.

Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some...

Dr. Patel: ...you have got to take guru as God from this point of view,...

Prabhupāda: That...

Dr. Patel: ...that he's ātmā. You are worshiping God...

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: Whatever vāda it is, I mean, that is...

Prabhupāda: The Māyāvāda says, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is God within you." The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal. "Kṛṣṇa is within. The outside is material body." You have read that.

Dr. Patel: There is no within and without... I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: And similarly, similarly, guru also--no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say, sākṣād-dharitvena. Directly, if you make distinction, how he can be directly?

Dr. Patel: Within, without is (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says, "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching... That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me."

Dr. Patel: No guru says so.

Prabhupāda: All rascals says. All rascals say.

Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The gurus, so-called gurus, there are. These Māyāvādīs, all they say. "I am God."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: "Let me now have rāsa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We'll dance." These are all rascals, Māyāvādīs. Māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. This is the statement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Māyāvādī, he's doomed, finished. He's finished.

 

Morning Walk                                              March 6, 1974, Māyāpura                                                          365296

Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore...

Devotee: You have to practice...

Prabhupāda: ...the practice is that you should simply desire what your spiritual master says. Don't desire yourself. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If you fulfill the desires of your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased." Because he's the representative, the immediate representative, boss, if you satisfy him, the master, supreme master, is also satisfied. If he gives report, "This clerk is doing nice," that is sufficient. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. This is the injunction.

Jayapatākā: So human life was no advantage. Only because you have come, now it can be advantage.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: Human life is no special advantage. Only if you come, the spiritual master comes, then it can be some advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Vedic injunction is gurum eva abhigacchet: "You must go to a bona fide spiritual master if you want to make your life perfect." There is no question whether I shall go or not. "You must!" That is the beginning of human life. Otherwise animal life. He has no spiritual master. He's not going to obey anyone. He's working in his own whims. That is animal life. Real life here begins.

tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet

samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham

This is the Vedic injunction. You cannot do anything without abiding the orders of spiritual master. That is surrender. How nice water it is.

365340

Prabhupāda: (break) ...sness movement is all-embracing, all problems. People should carefully study and take it. Then they will be happy. Otherwise all plans are nonsense, the scientists, the philosophers, the... All rascals. Māyayā apahṛta-jïānāḥ. They appear to be very learned, but māyā has killed them already. They have no knowledge. Māyayā apahṛta-jïānāḥ. Just see. Why? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Life is created by God. They'll not accept. "Life is created from dirt." That's all. Māyayā apahṛta-jïānāḥ. Where is the instance that you create life by chemicals? "That we shall see in the future." Kick him immediately on his face with boot. Rascal. Will you accept any check, "It will be paid in future?" Will you accept? So why shall I accept this rascal's theory? If somebody gives me check, one million dollar, payable three hundred years after, shall I be inclined to accept such check? So why these fools accepting this post-dated check?

Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda, they say they've already done so much. The scientists will say...

Prabhupāda: What they have done? What they have done? Why people are starving? What you have done?

Viṣṇujana: But they'll say we have created so much machineries and gone to the moon.

Prabhupāda: You cannot eat machine. You produce. You produce rice, wheat in the machine. What you have done? You have simply misled the people that instead of tilling the ground, they have come to machine, and there is no food.

Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: You have done this. You have, on the false plea that "We'll give you five hundred rupees salary. You come in the city and be engaged." Oh, he saw, "Oh, I am simply producing my food. If I get five hundred rupees, then I'll go to cinema, I'll have a good dress." Now there is no food even. You have done this. That's all. What is the benefit of this machine. Machine benefit is that we were purchasing, when there was no so much machine, in our childhood, three rupees, four annas per mound, first-class rice. Now we are purchasing one Kg.

Devotee: Ten rupees Kg. For one rupee (indistinct) first-class wheat.

Prabhupāda: Just see. So if one is rascal, they will be misled by this. Otherwise, any sane man will not accept. They say that, "We have done so much." What you have done? You have done this. At least in India, the effect of machine and factories: that there is no rice, no food.

Devotee: With the machines they're mixing stones in the rice.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: With machine help, they're mixing stone in the rice.

Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it, that you cannot get. Oh, you have done so much. But India is not meant for machine. These rascals, they do not know. India is, India's culture is plain living, high thinking. You require some food. Produce food, and take it, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they'll not accept, "Oh, this is primitive. Nowadays we have got... We must have the motor car, motor tire."

Devotee: Farmer sees that a job of three hundred rupees and runs away to city. He will not work in the field. Then there will be no food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they require. They require. The cow is being killed, and that's all. That is sufficient food for them." And let the farmers work for me, for bolts and nuts and motor tire. We make huge profit." You see. You are making profit, but other...

Devotee: What is the use of that profit, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, when don't get even for eating, no clothing, no eating? Only profit... What profit will be beneficial?

Prabhupāda: No, but they don't care for others. But they're having wine and women with their black market money. That's all. They're satisfied. They do not know... (end)

Morning Walk                                               March 7, 1974, Māyāpura                                                         365346

Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is proved. We are going to Africa. We are going to Canada, Europe, America. Everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the language. When a young man and young woman loves one another, there is no question of language. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Suppose you are in a foreign country. You do not know the language. But when there is fire, you get friends without any language." You see? In the beginning of British rule, there were not very many English-knowing Indians so a clerk in his office was working. So monkey came and he scattered the office papers. So after the monkey was driven away, he was collecting the papers. In the meantime, his English boss came. "What is this, man?" So he could not say. He began to jump. You see. "Monkey, sir. Monkey, sir. (laughter) Monkey, sir." "All right. All right. That's all right." Simply to inform, without any language, you can jump, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And he will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (Bengali)

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (break) (Bengali) Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. Do this. (break) ...and for constructing four buildings like that. (break) Kṛṣṇa took part in politics. So what is His politics? What is His sociology? What is His culture?

Guest: Support the right minority?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: Support the right minority?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of minority. Support the right person. Kṛṣṇa supported Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira in place of Duryodhana. So formerly it was monarchy. That is perfect politics. This democracy is useless. It has proved. One man, the king, he should be properly educated how to rule, what is the aim of ruling, how the people will be, I mean to say, culturally elevated, what is that culture. (break) There was a consulting board of learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons. They would advise the monarch how to rule.

Jayapatākā: This is... This is the land here.

Prabhupāda: This is the land?

Jayapatākā: Yeah, we're walking over it. We're going through... (break)

Śyāmasundara: Elizabeth, in England, she's got a..., what she calls a "think-tank" or a board of advisors who meet and advise her on different policies.

Prabhupāda: Privy council.

Śyāmasundara: Something like that. It's called a "think-tank". She's named it. It's presided over by Lord, Lord Goodman.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is, unless the people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, either this board or that board, that will not help. First of all, people should know what is the aim of life, what is culture, how the human activity should be directed. The people should know first of all this. Otherwise, changing from frying pan to the fire, it is useless. That is going on. That change, revolution, is going on. Just like the Russian people, they changed the Czarist government into communist government, revolution, but still, they're unhappy. They're trying to change by another revolution. This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. This is described in the śāstra as "chewing the chewed." Or the same simple philosophy: "This side of stool is better than that side." So he keeps the whole thing, stool. "This side, the dry side, is better and the moist side, wet side, is bad." This is no philosophy. It, it must not be stool. It must be gold. Then it is all right, this side or that side. That philosophy, that the dry side of stool is better than the wet side, this will not help. So first, first of all, human society must know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. We are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. We are suffering on account of our relationship with God. This is the cause of our suffering. Then we have to make plan how to revive our lost relationship with God. Then the... Everything is there in the Vedic literature. All directions are there. So we have to... Just like when we are in danger, we consult some learned man or physician or a lawyer, similarly we have to consult the Vedic culture, how perfect it is. This way?

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then everything is there. You haven't got to manufacture anything. And the Bhagavad-gītā is the gist idea of all Vedic culture. And our propaganda is to establish that gist idea of Bhagavad-gītā. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So therefore I am asking. "What is the politics of Kṛṣṇa?" Kṛṣṇa's politics was to have a king of the world which..., Kṛṣṇa conscious, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the Kṛṣṇa's politics. He wanted to replace. So the first politic is to replace these so-called leaders, demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is that land? This land?

Jayapatākā: We already walked over it.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayapatākā: You're talking. So I don't want to interrupt.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayapatākā: But on the way ba... It's that land over there.

Prabhupāda: So where are... Where are those boys? That Svarūpānanda?

Jayapatākā: They may have gone back to the temple now. This land... I'm sending... Because land, different land takes different time, so I'm sending both information out for this land here--It goes from this path, this, over to the other side of the barley, right to the river edge, twenty bighās--or this one, ten bighās, whichever is first. This is more fertile. For agriculture, this one...

Prabhupāda: So which one, like you like?

Guest: Whichever one is possible. As he says, "First come, first served."

Prabhupāda: All right. So you arrange. During stay, arrange something.

Guest: Something available here also?

Śyāmasundara: This is the old river bed, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayapatākā: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...will help us. (Bengali) So you purchase on this side land.

Jayapatākā: This land is for sale with this dhow (?) here. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              March 9, 1974, Māyāpura                                                          365432

Guest (2): (break) ...cultured under, say, very comfortable circumstances. This has a relation to constant inquiries from public, specially young men, at the entrance of our mandira, our, this building, these days. I was sort of doing, helping them for entrance and exit. In that course, many young people specially they asked, "How could people living in so much comfortable circumstances could hear and ask for bhakti."

Prabhupāda: Then does it mean that those who are...?

Guest (2): I, knew... Yes... Yes...?

Prabhupāda: Those who are in uncomfortable situation, they are big bhaktas? (laughter) Can you show me that because they're in uncomfortable situation, they have become big bhakta? Is that the proof? What is this land?

Bhavānanda: This land we were looking at a few days ago? You suggested purchasing it for grazing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice. So it is possible?

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, so do it. (break) ...bhakti's, as I explained, apratihatā. Any condition, bhakti can be executed. The example is given: Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī and Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya was gṛhastha and governor, and he was very comfortably situated. And Rūpa Gosvāmī was living underneath a tree every night. And both of them were equally... Rather, Rāmānanda Rāya was accepted in greater position than Rūpa Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in renounced order of life, but He gave even better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī. And Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha. He was not even a brāhmaṇa. And governor, very opulent. Very comfortable situation. You know this?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So how Caitanya Mahāprabhu treated them equally or gave better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī? This question was raised--not only now--when our Guru Mahārāja started Gauòīya Maṭha. So he was allowing the sannyāsīs to live in palatial building and go in car for preaching work. So many such persons questioned, "How is that, sannyāsīs are going in car, living in palatial building?" So our Guru Mahārāja replied that "A devotee should be offered the best comfort of life. And if he would not have introduced this comfortable life, at the same time, to become pure devotee, then these devotees from Western countries will, would never come. They would never agree to sit down under the tree and, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī... That is not possible." Do you understand or not?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is your answer?

Guest (2): I answered that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You answer me. I am talking with you.

Guest (2): Actually, I didn't know...

Prabhupāda: Now, in our building we have got the most comfortable situation. There is no such sanitary arrangement in any of the temples. But we are trying to give them. Because we deal, dealing in a different atmosphere.

Guest (1): People of the different countries can...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are...

Guest (1): They are not habituated...

Prabhupāda: They are not habituated...

Guest (1): ...with this...

Prabhupāda: ...to go on the field and pass, evacuate.

Guest (1): ...to pass their obnoxious and

Prabhupāda: Then it will be a great difficulty for them.

Guest (1): ...great difficulties for them. And to...

Prabhupāda: They must be given, as far as possible, their western type of comforts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): And they're born and brought up in this...

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed so much for me. They are ready to lie down under the tree. But it is my duty to see they are, as far as possible, they're comfortably situated. That is my duty. They can agree to live in any condition.

Guest (2): Gargamuni said me like this one day, and myself and one of the devotees went to draw the ration from the river in the distance, two miles off. And the devotee's saying, "We'll go by the car." And "Let us go by the rickshaw."

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do like that.

Guest (2): I like to save the paths(?) of the temple. And that devotee's not... Up till devotee, but he was a worker, his whole time living in the temple. And I asked Gargamuni, "Your devotee is saying, 'We'll go by car. It is expensive. Because we are collecting money from the different peoples and from the public. And we must not use our money in this way.' "

Prabhupāda: Jaya. For Kṛṣṇa bhakti, yes.

Guest (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Guest (2): (Bengali) (break)

Dhanaïjaya: ...who are very much attracted to living in Māyāpura, residing in Māyāpura, after perfecting their lives, do they sometimes join Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's saìkīrtana movement in Goloka Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Let me... (break) Those who are living in Māyāpura, they have already joined.

Dhanaïjaya: Haribol.

Prabhupāda:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

"Anyone who has joined devotional service, avyabhicāreṇa, without any reservation, he is already liberated." There is no question of liberation for him, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He's already in the Brahman platform. This is bhakti. For a bhakti, there is no question of liberation. He's already liberated. A millionaire is already rich. He doesn't require to become rich. It is automatically. (break)

Guest (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: It is just to give His personal example that a sannyāsī should not be very much intimately mixing with rich men. That is by His personal example. He was a sannyāsī. He refused to see a king because a king is supposed to be always busy in material affairs. So if... For the general people aspiring to go back to home, back to Godhead, for them, to mix with the materialistic persons is forbidden. Viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. Those who are viṣayī, simply engaged in sense gratification, and yoṣitām... Yoṣitām means women or enjoyable things.

Guest (1): Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmmm.

Guest (1): Many religious institutions, they welcome the rich peoples. Those who are coming by cars, and those who are coming gorgeously, and they are donating much to the institutions, they are welcomed by the people, management of these institutions. And this is your version. It is just contradictory. I accept your version. It is quite, quite right. And I hope our institution must do not like that. This ISKCON must not do like that. The well-to-do peoples who come, they'll get more... (break) ...more receptions, more congratulations. I request it must be your direction that our institution ISKCON must not do like this. And it is your... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: But one, one thing is that we are not living like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (laughter)

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was ideal sannyāsī, and He was living apart from any material attachment. But we have to do preaching work. We have to construct temple, comfortable temple. So who will pay for that?

Guest (1): Then your version...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to sometimes do that. Just like that woman, that chaste woman. She served a prostitute...

Guest (1): To make them correct.

Prabhupāda: No. Serve prostitute for serving her husband. That is a big story.

Guest (2): Big story, yes.

Prabhupāda: Lakṣa-hīra.

Guest (1): Lakṣa-hīra. Yes.

Prabhupāda: You know that, Lakṣa-hīra.

Guest (1): And husband was a...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): And he requested his Lakṣa-hīra that "I want to go one night to the..."

Prabhupāda: Yes, to the prostitute and her pay, her fee, was lakṣa-hīra, one hundred thousand pieces of diamond. You see.

Guest (1): Yes. I know that, that story.

Prabhupāda: So for the satisfaction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we sometimes do that. But we collect money from them not for our sense gratification, but constructing this temple.

Guest (1): For the general public and...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...country and...

Prabhupāda: And unless we have got temple like this, nobody would come. If I sit down here, "Bhaktivedanta Swami is sitting here," nobody will come. (laughter)

Guest (1): But people, like poor people, like come to the...

Prabhupāda: But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God. He can attract any man. But I am not God. I have to attract people by some opulence.

Guest (2): But Prabhupāda, in the beginning, you attracted in the park everyone. When you went to America, you were chanting and attracting people just in the park. Same place. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Now, at that time, only Brahmānanda was attracted. (laughter) Not you. Not you.

Guest (2): Only because he was sincere soul.

Prabhupāda: This Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, they first danced in my chanting in the park. The photograph was published in the Times of New York.

Guest (1): And I heard that your first devotee in America, Kīrtaniyā.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Kīrtaniyā Swami.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda Swami.

Guest (1): Kīrtanānanda Swami.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is next. He is next.

Guest (1): Oh yes, I met him.

Prabhupāda: He came next. Brahmānanda came first.

Kīrtanānanda: No, I came first. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No. You were present in that Thompkinson Square?

Kīrtanānanda: Before that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kīrtanānanda: Before that.

Prabhupāda: Oh before that. Yes, yes. Yes, I...

Guest (1): I asked him. And somebody, some devotee...

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda you are defeated. (laughter) So kīrtana is glorious than brahma-jïāna. (laughter)

Guest (1): And some devotee introduced me with him, that "He is the first devotee of Prabhupāda in America, in foreign."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's also a priest's son, coming from very respectable, priestly order family.

Guest (1): Last few days, we were enjoying a good day.

Guest (2): But there are so many disciples of one guru. Are they come all in bona fide disciplic succession?

Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Well, everyone is in a bona fide disciplic succession provided he keeps that tradition, keeps that tradition. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. One must behave that "I belong to this disciplic succession. I must keep myself fit for the post." Then it is all right. If he deviates, then he deviates the disciplic succession. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says frankly that... This is disciplic succession. Āmāra ājïāya: "Just carry out My order." Then you are in disciplic succession. If you do not keep yourself in the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then simply by becoming disciple, you are not in the disciplic succession. This is disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this clearly, āmāra ājïāya guru haïa tāra ei: "Wherever you live, you become a spiritual master." How? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa: "Whomever you meet, you only speak what Kṛṣṇa has instructed." Then you are disciplic succession. It doesn't matter what you are and where you are. It doesn't matter. This is disciplic succession. And if you think, "Now I am initiated. I am now liberated. I have no other business," then you are not in the disciplic succession. You must preach. That is disciplic succession.

Guest (1): This is the definition of a disciple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Āmāra ājïāya guru haïa tāra ei deśa, yāre dekha... You have to... Anywhere, any friend, any businessman, "Are you Kṛṣṇa conscious? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. What is the loss in that? "My dear friend, I request you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." Where is the difficulty?

Brahmānanda: Even a child like Sarasvatī, she does.

Prabhupāda: Yes? Ah, yes.

Guest (1): She asks everybody. Every child, she will say: "Jump!" "Jump, Jump, Jump!" And she will...

Prabhupāda: And if he does not, she'll say: "Śyāmasundara, here is a karmī." (laughter) So they're... Our Gosāin in Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, he was smoking. "Mālatī, Mālatī see this old man is smoking."

Guest (2): Take this beedie out. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. She was telling.

Prabhupāda: Just see. "He's smoking beedie." This man became little ashamed. "Yes, my girl, I'll give it up by and by." She was surprised that a man is smoking. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...dṛòha-vrata, vows, very rigidly. Bhajante māṁ dṛòha-vratāḥ. So if I'm unable, there is no need of starving. No. Because if you become diseased, then your bhajana will be hampered. So you can do it.

                                                                                                                                                                        365624

Prabhupāda: "Waves in the ocean. Let it, let it be stopped. Then I shall start my boat." It will never come.

Guest (4): Then this is not my intention.

Prabhupāda: It will never come.

Guest (4): It is not my intention.

Prabhupāda: Start boat immediately, in whatever condition.

Guest (4): Any circumstance.

Prabhupāda: Any circumstance. That is required.

Guest (2): We should take it very seriously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) "First of all let us become economically fit. Then we shall consider our spiritual." This is nonsense.

Guest (1): That will never come.

Prabhupāda: All the big, big leaders, they wanted to keep themselves economically fit, but when death came, they had to surrender. "Yes sir, (Bengali)"

Guest (4): Many leaders are economically...

Prabhupāda: They do not... They're not leaders. I say they're rascals.

Guest (4): They do not live here, and they must...

Prabhupāda: All these leaders, I must say clearly, they're all rascals, misleaders. Not only in our country, all over the world. Therefore we have started this movement, who is real leader? (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             March 12, 1974, Vṛndāvana                                                        365641

Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.

Passerby: Jayo!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also?

Prabhupāda: No, why?

Bhagavān: Śūdras...

Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa.

Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all.

Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.

Bhagavān: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread." And after getting it, business finished: "Now I'm liberated. Let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighās of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpura, setting aside twenty bighās for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighās of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can...?

Bhagavān: Fifteen hundred.

Prabhupāda: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he'll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varṇāśrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: What should the kṣatriyas be taught?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kṣatriya's business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." No. They must come forward. "Yes, we are prepared to fight." That is kṣatriya.

Tamāla-Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Tamāla-Kṛṣṇa: In our centers we are awarding brāhmaṇa initiation, second initiation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu... Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, He's not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaiṣṇava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brāhmaṇa, one should be acting like kṣatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyāsī who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that "Because I have taken sannyāsa, therefore I cannot any more do anything." If need be, he has to act as kṣatriya. Or a śūdra. It doesn't matter.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Doesn't matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a śūdra does not mean he has become śūdra. He's Vaiṣṇava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to... Guṇa, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.

Prabhupāda: That is leadership. That is leadership. The... Which man is fitted for which work.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: Yes. Utilization of all resources...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: ...including devotees and funds and everything.

Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is kāminī-kāïcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared--Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja--for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.

Prabhupāda: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?" What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. (break) ...especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle... What is? Opiate...? What is called?

Devotees: Opiate of the people.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that "They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?" They have taken some plea and rejected our... (break) ...is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against māyā, the māyā is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, then it will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...taranti te, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. In India the, the brāhmaṇa class, they say, "Oh, I am born in brāhmaṇa family. Why shall I do this work?" You see. Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here, in India, if he happens to be a brāhmaṇa, he'll not take any kind of work. Means... Just like plowing. He'll not agree. Therefore so much land. The kṣatriya is thinking, "I am kṣatriya." The brāhmaṇa is thinking, "I am brāhmaṇa." And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a kṣatriya. And instead of studying Vedas, he'll study the rules and regulations given by the office. But he'll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. (Hindi) He'll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they're crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners, and you go to the Central Park, you'll find so many hippies are lying down idle.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: Unemployment.

Prabhupāda: Unem... Not employment. They'll not work. That means mismanagement. Why they should remain down? Why they should remain without any employment? But the government is not doing that.

Devotee: They do not feel inspired.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: They do not feel inspired. No one has desire.

Prabhupāda: That, that means mismanagement. You had no desire to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you have been taken to it by some, some way or other. That is management.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is management.

Hṛdayānanda: You are expert manager.

Prabhupāda: A child does not want to go to school, but it is the duty of the parent to send him to the school by some way or other. So that is government's duty, that a man should be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment. That is very dangerous position of the society. Now this unemployment question is very strong all over the world. They'll plan that "This government is not good. That system is not good. He's not good." And he'll do nothing. He'll personally do nothing. Just like the hippies, they criticize everyone, but he'll not do anything. It is all... These descriptions are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We are going too far? Employed... (break) ...from the government to utilize this land. You see? So much. Everywhere you'll find. Everywhere you'll find. Who was with me in London?

Devotee: Yeah. Last time, last summer?

Prabhupāda: Letchmore Heath.

Devotee: Yeah?

Prabhupāda: So much, lying vacant. They have taken it into consideration that "What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily." Because he doesn't care for sinful activities. The... "If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the...?" This is going on, all over the world.

Indian man: Employment means now just to cut the money and not to work. No work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) The same... Employment, even for the woman, the carakā. You see? Gandhi also studied this. There must be... Woman should be engaged for weaving. What is called?

Devotee: Spinning.

Prabhupāda: Spinning, yes. Everyone should be engaged. That is management. So all GBC members must see that in every temple, everyone is engaged.

Brahmānanda: That is the meaning of leadership.

Prabhupāda: That is the meaning of leadership.

Hṛdayānanda: And that all the devotees are protected.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: And all the devotees are protected.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone should be engaged. And if everyone is engaged, he'll never fall sick. Yes. (break) ...the farmers, their son, they're giving up the farming business.

Haṁsadūta: Going to the city.

Prabhupāda: Going to the city. In your country also?

Ātreya-ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Or you have nothing to do with farming.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: Your country, there is nothing to do with farming. You have got petrol.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: No. No there is a lot of good land, but they're not developing it.

Devotee: Just selling petrol.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if they can get money underground, "Why shall I work?" (end)

 

Morning Walk                                            March 14, 1974, Vṛndāvana                                                         365772

Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.

Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.

Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?

Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājïo dharmān bhāgavatān iha. The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.

Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.

Hṛdayānanda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa? Such as say...

Prabhupāda: No.

Hṛdayānanda: Say, for example, someone was a, a kṣatriya by inclination, or a...?

Prabhupāda: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would...

Hṛdayānanda: Boarding school.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.

Nitāi: Not business also?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: The vaiśyas?

Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no.

Nitāi: No?

Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: What kind of training is there for a śūdra?

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, just...

Prabhupāda: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all.

Satsvarūpa: What would he learn at the school, though?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance--he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.

Yaduvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Śūdra.

Yaduvara: Śūdra.

Prabhupāda: They are śūdras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the śūdras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts.

Yaduvara: Hm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the whole people, population, is śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: It is a fact.

Prabhupāda: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are śūdras. (break)

Hṛdayānanda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: In our society (break) ...accepted (break) ...as a philosopher.

Prabhupāda: Artist?

Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, the artist.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break)

Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. (break) ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... (break) We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jïānī ca bharatarṣabha. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jïānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijïāsur jïānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇòālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.

Hṛdayānanda: It's true. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, mlecchas and yavanas. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the mlecchas and yavanas, by training, you are becoming more than a brāhmaṇa. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na śamayati. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaìgānām (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaìgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school required.

Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, in this varṇāśrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read Mahābhārata, history of the great men, Pāṇòavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira.

Hṛdayānanda: Mahābhārata.

Prabhupāda: Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way?

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so...

Prabhupāda: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history.

Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇòavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇòālas.

Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow.

Prabhupāda: No. Cow... The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇòī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life--marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education--śūdra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.

Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇāśrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varṇa and āśrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇāśrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā sṛṣṭam. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... śamo damaḥ,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is brāhmaṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?

Prabhupāda: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, they'll be teachers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇòavas. General teacher class will be the brāhmaṇas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a brāhmaṇa. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.

Satsvarūpa: This is all very new.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though.

Prabhupāda: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.

Satsvarūpa: Then it becomes easy.

Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

Hṛdayānanda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the...

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are śūdras or less than śūdras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

Viṣṇujana: Preliminary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work?

Viṣṇujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method--varṇāśrama.

Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general--you've made some exceptions--but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Yaduvara: How would the kṣatriyas kill the animals?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

Prabhupāda: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivrāja, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men.

Viṣṇujana: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of...

Prabhupāda: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it.

Viṣṇujana: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them prasādam. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is sannyāsī.

Viṣṇujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: ...that we live there and...

Prabhupāda: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat."

Viṣṇujana: Then there'll be wide criticism.

Prabhupāda: That is... This is not good.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: You should remain always sannyāsī within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama; we are above varṇāśrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.

Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.

Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.

Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.

Hṛdayānanda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years.

Hṛdayānanda: They can start at ten to twelve?

Prabhupāda: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varṇāśrama college.

Viṣṇujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Organize that.

Viṣṇujana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall go.

Viṣṇujana: This Mahārāja is also going to New Vrindaban.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Viṣṇujana: He can...

Prabhupāda: Do that. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you, and combined together, do that.

Viṣṇujana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work.

Viṣṇujana: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Viṣṇujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: That's most auspicious.

Prabhupāda: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain.

Viṣṇujana: For example, in my program...

Prabhupāda: Budhaḥ. Budhaḥ. Eh? Yes?

Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books?

Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ...in separate department.

Passer-by: Rādhe, Rādhe!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe."

Viṣṇujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were...

Prabhupāda: This is India.

Viṣṇujana: ...worshiping...

Prabhupāda: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries.

Hṛdayānanda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Parivrājakācārya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?

Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute--for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

Hṛdayānanda: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?

Prabhupāda: They should be engaged.

Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.

Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college.

Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.

Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghāma, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghāma and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghāma means perspiration. (break) ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. (break) ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. (break) ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations. Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Have they done anything progressive?

Hṛdayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong?

Hṛdayānanda: Right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So study this institution.

Viṣṇujana: Thirty years now.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūòhān, humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁhadeva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. (break) ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training kṣatriyas, they're training...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...

Viṣṇujana: ...vaiśyas...

Prabhupāda: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula.

Viṣṇujana: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired.

Parivrājakācārya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already...

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there.

Viṣṇujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Païcāyeta. It is called païcāyeta system. (break) ...tion. You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings.

Viṣṇujana: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Viṣṇujana: ...and turn it into a society.

Hṛdayānanda: Ah, that's wonderful.

Satsvarūpa: Many times our devotees get cheated in business dealings by inexperience. So should they learn from...

Prabhupāda: How to cheat others. (laughter)

Satsvarūpa: No, not how to cheat, but from experienced devotees how to not be cheated?

Prabhupāda: Why should you go to a person who cheats you? (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             March 15, 1974, Vṛndāvana                                                        366010

Prabhupāda: ...you should call learned. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. You take it...

Nitāi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...this quotation from Padma Purāṇa, and distribute it by transcribing to all our devotees.

Nitāi: That's the verse that says that one is a resident of hell...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nārakī.

Nitāi: ...if he considers the Deity...

Prabhupāda: Nārakī.

Nitāi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Arcye viṣṇau... (break) ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You maintain this idea. Is it not good?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: When there will be military march of Kṛṣṇa conscious soldiers. ( )

 

Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. (  ) (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?

Devotees: Hammer and sickle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good.

Indian: Yeah, good.

Prabhupāda: But no hammer. Only this... What is called?

Devotees: Sickle.

Prabhupāda: No hammer. That will be our emblem. Only sickle. Not hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole human civilization. So just make a counter-emblem. The communists will appreciate.

Devotee: Sickle and tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: A sickle, and then a tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good idea. Guptajī? Come here. (Hindi)

Gupta: (Hindi for few sentences)

Prabhupāda: Rascal civilization, rascal government. And people are transferred into rascals. (Hindi) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Without anna, how they can live? There is no arrangement for anna. They're simply passing resolution, legislative laws. And no anna. Just see what kind of wretched government it is. Everywhere. There is no anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. The first duty of government is to see that everyone is happy, without any anxiety. These preliminary necessities of life, āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, there must be sufficient arrangement for these preliminary necessities of life. One must eat sumptuously. Not over-eating, indulgation. No. But he must have sufficient food to keep up the health. Similarly, he must have place to sleep. We, we are prepared to offer everything. And be Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our mission. Not by eating and sleeping, become rogues and thieves and rascals. That we will not allow. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Why unemployment? There is no scarcity (of) water. Just have a big well. Electricity pump water. Oh, immediately, it will be all green. Immediately. (Hindi for a while) Jayo! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (break) ...all round, for the benefit of the human society. You'll be honored everywhere. Everywhere, any part of the world. And automatically these bogus avatāra, incarnations, God, and yogis and swamis will be all doomed. You see? These rascal society, avatāra, "Bhagavān," incarnations, yogis, these rascals will be doomed.

Gupta: These (indistinct) ought to be finished. They cannot remain.

Prabhupāda: No! (Hindi) ...that glowworm. Glowworm (Hindi) beautiful (Hindi) darkness hai. (Hindi) So long people were in darkness, they were beautiful. Now there is sunshine.

Gupta: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda is the sun.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...the anxiety of Prahlāda Mahārāja, "How these rascals, who have made a plan for happiness of a few men, gorgeous plan." And they're... For happiness of the government servant. That's all. You know in Delhi there is Planning Commission? What is that plan? That people may starve, and Indira Gandhi and company may flourish. That's all.

Gupta: I think, Mahārāja, they are coming to the office at twelve and going back at one, doing nothing, and...

Prabhupāda: But what they have got to do?

Gupta: They are not doing...

Prabhupāda: Just like I have seen in London the Parliament. When they had some so-called empire... Now the Parliament is useless, useless. The Parliament members and the Lords, House of Lords, House of Commons, they are now useless. They have got some old books only. In Parliament. I have seen. Some old books. Old books means all the speeches are recorded in books. And who is going to read them? Almiras, so many... I have seen in Parliament. Hundreds and thousands of speeches recorded and bound up very nicely. Who is going to read them? Simply waste of time.

Gupta: They are increasing the load like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gupta: Donkey's load. Go on increasing, increasing.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this example is given: ass. For nothing, not for himself. He'll be given a little grass. The grass is available here. But still, he's engaged. Employment. Ass will reap, eat little grass. Grass is available everywhere. But still, he'll work for others, loading, overloading. This is ass. He has no sense, "So why I have taken so much overload? I can get grass anywhere. Let me remain free." But he has no such sense. Neither he will be allowed. (laughs) This is ass. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...there are many bābājīs. They are collecting cāpāṭis and smoking bidi, and have one or two women. That's all. It is going on. So they should be drawn: "Come on! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plough." Not that you become Rūpa Gosvāmī simply by smoking. They are thinking they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī lived like that. So they think by changing the cloth, loincloth, they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. And whatever nonsense they like, they can do. (break) ...taken and all these bābājīs should be employed, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and draw plough." Then it will be nice.

Jayādvaita: In America too, the...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: In America too, the big intellectuals and professors, they can also be... We can have ploughs for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're wasting time. Better produce some food. At least, your food. You are living at the cost of others. What is the value of your philosophy? That... To... In the Bhagavad-gītā: etaj jïānam, tad ajïānaṁ yad anyathā. To search out the Absolute Truth, that is jïāna, knowledge, philosophy. Anything else, that is ajïānam. (break) ...I think it is so that if you cannot use your plot of land, then it will go to the government. Is it not?

Gupta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, if the government cannot utilize, it comes to us. We shall work. Is it not good?

Gupta: Very good.

Prabhupāda: There must be some law like that. The government has taken from the public because it is not being worked out. Now we shall work. Give us this land. (Hindi) "You have taken from the public. Why should you not give us?" So that there will be no question, even government does not, we shall go and occupy, occupy, and go on tilling. What the government will...? Public will support us.

Gupta: Again it is being distributed to their relations, those who are in the power, and then they do not work again.

Prabhupāda: Again

Gupta: Then it remains...

Prabhupāda: Then whatever field is not being worked, we occupy them, and begin to work. And invite all the unemployed, "Come and join us. We shall give you food, shelter, everything." (break) ...how Kṛṣṇa is setting example. Kṛṣṇa is saying that "I have already arranged the result of this fighting. Everyone will be killed." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin. But still, He is inducing Arjuna to work. Not that He's already (indistinct), "I am your friend, Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be done." "It will be done, but you have to work."

Gupta: Maybe a friend or not.

Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. Not that "Because I am friend, I will do, and you will sleep and get dysentery." No. You have to work. Everything is already arranged, but you must work. That is wanted. Otherwise, why Arjuna was induced to fight. Kṛṣṇa has already arranged. And Arjuna also: "Yes." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. "Whatever you say..." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...politician, Balavanta? He's not here. So let him preach that "We shall, if you take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there will be no unemployment." He can at least give this manifesto to the..., "There will be no more unemployment." People will be very nice, very glad to hear. Now this machine, this machine nonsense means unemployment. One machine will work for hundred men. So hundred men becomes unemployed, and one technician, he gets all the salaries. To work on the computer, com...

Devotee: Computer, yes.

Prabhupāda: Machine. And he's very expert. He'll take three thousand dollars. And others will be unemployed. This is going on. And they are thinking: "Advancement of civilization." Advancement of civilization means "Exploit others and you become happy." This is advancement of civilization. "Others may die for such, out of starvation, and one man takes all the money and spends it for wine and women and motor car." That's all. This is advancement of civilization. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is Vedic civilization. "Let everyone be happy." That is Vedic civilization. And the demonic civilization, they're: "Let everyone suffer; I become happy. That's all." And Vaiṣṇava is thinking, "For my salvation it is already guaranteed." But he is thinking, "How these poor people will be saved?" Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. Prahlāda Mahārāja. This is Vaiṣṇava's position. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For himself, he has no unhappiness. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava shall work hard, undergo all tribulation, for others. He has no problem. A Vaiṣṇava has no problem. Because he has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he has no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati. Kṛṣṇa also gives guarantee, "Anyone who has taken shelter of My..., he is saved. I will give him protection." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi sarva... Everything is there. For Vaiṣṇava there is no suffering, personally. But he is very much anxious: "How these rascals will be happy?" That is his business. "These rascals are misled. They are going astray, unhappy. So how they should be happy?" So that is Vaiṣṇava's business. So the Vaiṣṇava, therefore, will have no politics. Politics means planning for one's own happiness. That is politics. So in our society there should be no diplomacy, no politics. Everyone should be eager how to do good to others. That is Vaiṣṇava. If he's planning something, that "I shall be leader," "I shall be doing something," that is not Vaiṣṇavism. That politics is not good.

Devotee: It seems that people are so attached to sense gratification, if we tell them we want to stop all these facilities for drinking, cinema, women, like that, they become angry.

Prabhupāda: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract. (pause)

Local people: (calling out in distance) Harilāljī! Harilāljī!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. At least they are remembering Harilāljī by seeing us. So much benefit was in that. Eh?

Gupta: When we pass, people say "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma."

Prabhupāda: This is the test of Vaiṣṇava. If one is actually Vaiṣṇava, then by seeing him one will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This has been created all over the world. Yes. Wherever we go, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even at midnight in Athens. Yes. That we have experienced. This is the definition given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Jayādvaita: Prabhupāda, if Kṛṣṇa had already done all the work at Kurukṣetra, so why was He so eager to have Arjuna work?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jayādvaita: Because He'd already done the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayādvaita: Why did He want Arjuna to work?

Prabhupāda: Just to show example, that "Don't sit idly, rascal. Work." Kṛṣṇa has already done, but you must work. This is the example.

Jayādvaita: People will argue that "Why should we work? If we can make an arrangement for being idle..."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: People argue that "If we can make an arrangement to be idle, then it's nice. We've worked so hard. Now we can be idle. That's nice."

Prabhupāda: Then, that, if you become idle, you'll be diseased. You'll have dysentery. That's all. That will not help you. You'll have to suffer. That, that, that stage has already come. Because so many rascals are idle, now there is so many things want. So you'll suffer. If you don't work, then you'll suffer. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              March 18, 1974, Vrndavan                                                         366203

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's always the memory that Kṛṣṇa's here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

Satsvarūpa: When Prabhupāda was walking in Letchmore Health, he said, "This looks like Govardhana Hill."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bicyclist: (ringing bell) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: It's like you said last night. They begin to chant.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: Do the rickshaw drivers in Letchmore Heath chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, they were sleeping. (laughter) That is western. Here you will find even the old man rises early in the morning. Yes, take bath. Without any reference to Hare Kṛṣṇa. They chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the village, they take bath early in the morning. That is very healthy. (break) ...I have generally... (indistinct) (heavy wind noise)

Satsvarūpa: Mixed with moisture?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. The scientists say that it is a blazing fire, sun planet. Fire is generally red color with little yellow. Why it is coloured white? We have no experience of fire, white. So how do they say it is fire? That is my question. (break) ...tell me what blue I have seen. Red I have seen. Where is white?

Guru dāsa: (indistinct) the sun is a reflection of the brahmajyoti?

Prabhupāda: That is another. First of all, you answer whether it is fire or something else. (break)

Satsvarūpa: ...dew.

Prabhupāda: Where is the moisture? It is clear shine. Where is the moisture? (break) (laughter) It is not fire. It is a brilliant body. It is not fire. (break)

Satsvarūpa: ...body of Vivasvān?

Prabhupāda: Whole planet, I mean the population, they're so bright.

Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in your lectures you explain the living entities can live there because they have bodies of fire.

Prabhupāda: Fiery. Not fire.

Guru dāsa: Fiery.

Prabhupāda: Because there is heat and brightness, therefore they can say fire. Just like, what is called, diamond. Diamond looks like, bright, like this beautiful. But that is not fire. Diamond, real diamond, you keep in dark room; it will be light. But that is not fire.

Devotee: Effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bright. Brightness. (heavy wind noise) (break)

Devotee: That stars?

Prabhupāda: Stars? They are planets like this planet. Like moon planet, the moon planet. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. The stars, they are so many moons, not suns. They say "sun." And we say, "No, it is moon." Sun is only one. In each universe there is one sun, but there are many planets like moons.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reflections.

Prabhupāda: Reflection. We get it from Bhagavad-gītā. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. (heavy wind noise) (break) ...due to the sun, reflect.

Guru dāsa: Why does the moon reflect? They say the moon is sandy, but this sand here is not reflecting.

Prabhupāda: That... They are not going to the moon planet. They are going to some other planet, Rahu planet.

Guru dāsa: Rahu?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many planets invisible. So there is a Rahu planet which comes in front of the moon planet, and that is called eclipse. So there is a planet rotating. I think they are going to that Rahu planet, not to the moon planet.

Haṁsadūta: How can they make such a mistake?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: How is it that they made such a big mistake?

Prabhupāda: Their whole life is mistake. (laughter) They cannot do anything but mistake. Why you are so much confident about that? Their whole life is simply mistake.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, they see a little fire, and they see that it has heat and light, and so they see a huge thing having heat and light, and so they conclude that that's also a fire. So if that's their deductive method, then if they see that whenever there's intelligence, there must be a person, then why don't they conclude that behind the universe, there's so many wonderful things, that there must also be a person?

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say there are persons, combination of fiery persons. Therefore it looks so bright.

Akṣayānanda: Is the brightness of a diamond because of the presence of a jīva?

Prabhupāda: Suppose you get a diamond body. Just like glowworm. Glowworm, it has a glowing body. That's all. But the glowing substance is different from the soul. Owner of the body is different.

 

 

My creating so many centers, big, big temples, that is not my primary duty. My primary duty is to write books. Therefore I am going on still. These are coming automatically. Maybe this is the secret of my success.

 

As soon as the kṣatriyas were negligent, immediately the brāhmaṇas should take step. That was the system. (break) ...offer advice to the kṣatriyas according to śāstra, and kṣatriyas would execute, and the vaiśyas would care for supply. And the śūdras, serving everyone. That's all. This is the system.

A devotee, because he is working as a śūdra, he is not a śūdra; neither he is a brāhmaṇa. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that…First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.

 

So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows?

 

...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya.

 

So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam, they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost.

 

So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Kṛṣṇa. He knows.

 

Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava.

 

Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal.

 

Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiyā.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME EIGHT

Morning Walk                                               Bombay, March 24, 1974                                                          367099

Prabhupāda: ...I am not this body.

Dr. Patel: That's right. So the mosquitos also have no body.

Prabhupāda: They tolerate. Actually, they tolerate because they factually think that "I am not this body. Let the mosquito bite my body."

Dr. Patel: (laughs) So mosquitos also have no body.

Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Öhākura says, deha smṛti nāhi yāra saṁsāra bandhana kaha tāra (?). One who is beyond the conception of bodies, he has no obligation of these material things. Just like there are many sādhus, they simply remain naked body. Even in severe cold. They are practiced.

Dr. Patel: They have reached that avadhūta-veṣa.

Prabhupāda: So this is also avadhūta-veṣa.

Dr. Patel: But that stage you must reach.

Prabhupāda: No, somehow or other, they have gone to some extent. Never mind the mosquito. Let bite. I am not this body."

Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have hypnotized them.

Prabhupāda: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing saìkīrtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) (break) "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dāsa, then I become your master."

 

Morning Walk                                               March 26, 1974, Bombay                                                          367680

Prabhupāda: ...not this, not that. That will not help. You must act in such a way that these people accept you as superior. (break) ...(Hindi) (break) ...not a paid servant. (break) ...bring Bhagavān at your control. You can bring Him at your control by love. Just like Yaśodāmayī... She's showing the stick: "Kṛṣṇa, if you do like this, then I will chastise you." And He's crying. That is premā. (break) Premā pum-artho mahān. That is the highest achievement, to achieve the love of Godhead. And if you love God, then you achieve love of everyone. (Hindi) (break)

Dr. Patel: I like you calling me... "What is that, what you are doing now?" (laughs) (break)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...anya Mahāprabhu has taught us that to remain a fool and rascal before spiritual master is the first qualification of the disciple. Always remain a fool and rascal.

Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached after, after...

Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha, guru more mūrkha dekhi, karila śāsana "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me, considering Me a fool number one." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a first-class mūrkha, fool. And therefore he has chastised Me." That is the standard of guru and śiṣya. A guru... And Cāṇakya Paṇòita says, lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. If you pat, there are so many bad things. Lālane bahavo doṣās tāòane bahavo guṇāḥ. And if you chastise, there are so many good qualities. Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca taòayet.

Dr. Patel: Na tu lalayet.

Prabhupāda: Na tu lalayet. Therefore either son or disciple, you must always chastise him, not pat him, "Oh, you are very good boy." "You are nothing. You are doing nothing." That is the business of the guru, to find out fault.

Dr. Patel: Don't spare the rod.

Prabhupāda: Although there is no fault, the guru's business is to: "Where is his fault?" That is guru's business. Tasmād taòayet na tu lalayet.

 

Morning Walk                                               March 27, 1974, Bombay                                                         36 8011

mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā

na viviktāsano bhavet

balavān indriya-grāmo

vidvāṁsam api karṣati

Mother, sister, daughter. Even with them one should not... In solitary.

Dr. Patel: That is what Swami Nārāyaṇa says. He says from the same Manu-smṛti. (breaks)

Prabhupāda: ...seven years. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: (talking constantly in background to somebody else) And these boys are very good students because they are... (break) ...this dating business. I hate this word date itself. Eh?

Prabhupāda: Well, this hating... You hate for something, he hates for something else. That is going on.

Dr. Patel: But this dating... That is why I to... I mean, I did not see my wife before I married her. And we were very happy all the life. (break)

Prabhupāda: That is not happening nowadays. Now, when... One girl is visited many times, and she becomes pregnant. Then marriage takes place.

Dr. Patel: Then only...

Guest (1): By force you marry.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no marriage.

Guest (1): Now they are, they questioned and they call this the modern day...

Prabhupāda: (break) ...of the same quality.

Guest (1): That is the now. That is how.

Prabhupāda: How the mother can do that! Birds of the same feather.

Bhava-bhūti: It's predicted like that in the Bhāgavata.

Guest (1): But the vibrations of these boys, what... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...done? Therefore we have got the Dallas school.

Guest (1): I mean the Indian method of arranging marriage, by the parents is the best. (break)

Prabhupāda: I have got them married. Although I am not their parents, I asked that "You marry this." They accepted.

Guest (1): That is the right way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Jagat... Jagat-tāriṇī.

Bhava-bhūti: Oh yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the name, Jagat-tāriṇī?

Viśākhā: Dīna-tāriṇī?

Prabhupāda: No, no, Jagat-tāriṇī?

Bhava-bhūti: Jagat-tāriṇī, yes.

Prabhupāda: Who...

Bhava-bhūti: And Bhūrijana.

Prabhupāda: He married Jagat-tāriṇī. She was a famous artist. So she came to me to surrender, that "I shall become your disciple."

Guest (1): The paintings which was...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): She was painting in that film?

Prabhupāda: No, no. She is another girl. She's Jadurāṇī. So this Jagat-tāriṇī, after some days, I asked her that "You go to Japan. There is my disciple, Bhūrijana. You go and marry him." So she did not see the boy, did not know anything about. And she was very rich. Still, on my order, she went to Japan and married that boy.

Dr. Patel: And is she unhappy?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Very happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): That's guru-vacana.

Dr. Patel: No, no. That guru and... Gurudeva... (break)

Prabhupāda: No. I did not like my wife. Still, I had to marry her. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: And you had not bad days all your life. Or you were quarrelling? I am sorry to intrude.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Were you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So you are quarrelsome even now. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: My wife... I admit she's very nice lady. But I did not like her. (break) ...if he becomes so, he cannot become Aurobindo Ghosh. If he becomes attached to the wife up to the point of death, he never becomes Aurobindo Ghosh.

Guest (1): Tulasī dāsa, also, the same thing happened. No? Everywhere...

Dr. Patel: I was attached to my wife. And I used to quarrel every day.

Prabhupāda: Quarrelling between husband and wife, that is natural. That is explained in the Cāṇakya Paṇòita... Dam-patye kalahe caiva bambhārambhe laghu kriyā (?). The quarrelling will be very humbug, big, but the result will be nothing.

Dr. Patel: Nothing. These American boys, they quarrel with their wives. The next day...

Prabhupāda: Because there is no...

Guest (1): They will immediately quarrel.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. Here, because the Hindu... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...quarrel, my wife never thought of any other man; neither I thought of any other woman.

Dr. Patel: Why? Because of the background.

Prabhupāda: Although we fought, but there was no such thing. (break) Fighting is natural. This is fight of love. This is not fight... Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇòita has said, "Neglect this fighting. Don't take it seriously." Dam-patye kalahe bambhārambhe laghu kriyā (?). This should not be... Quarrel between husband and wife should not be taken seriously. Let them fight. It will stop automatically. That's all.

Dr. Patel: He said, now we have... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...wasting time in social... Yes.

Dr. Patel: In wasting time in grāmya-kathā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Grāmya-vārttā.

Prabhupāda: Very good. It is a good suggestion. We should utilize the time for spiritual advancement.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Even sometimes... We already discussed. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...discussion on any śloka. Let us discuss.

 

Morning Walk                                                 April 2, 1974, Bombay                                                            370414

Prabhupāda: Nyāsa means giving up, giving up. Sat nyāsa, sannyāsa. Oṁ tat sat. Sat is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is real sannyāsa, not this dress. This dress is symbolical. That's all. Real thing is kāryaṁ karma karoti ya. Kāryam. "Oh, it is my... Kṛṣṇa wants, everyone should surrender unto Him. Then I shall teach everyone to surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kāryam. "This is my business." Kāryaṁ karma karoti, sa sannyāsī. What is that kāryam? Kāryam means this is kāryam.

Chandobhai: Yajïā dana tapa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. You'll take a practical... My Guru Mahārāja gave me hint that book publication is more pleasing to me than Maṭha-mandira. So I took it and I began to publish books and that has come successful. Kāryaṁ karma. I took it, "Oh, Guru Mahārāja wants that books should be published. So let me concentrate on this instead of..." My creating so many centers, big, big temples, that is not my primary duty. My primary duty is to write books. Therefore I am going on still. These are coming automatically. Maybe this is the secret of my success.

Dr. Patel: Sannyāsa-yoga-yuktātmā vimukto mām upaiṣyasi.

Prabhupāda: Ah, karyam, that one should take the order of the guru, because guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So when one takes... That is explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Öhākura in connection with the verse:

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir

ekeha kuru-nandana

bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca

buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām

So the vyavasāyīs, those who are fixed up in the words of guru, "So guru has ordered me to do it. Oh, that is my life. I do not know whether I will be promoted to heaven or hell. It doesn't matter. I shall execute..."

Dr. Patel: Execute the order of the guru.

Prabhupāda: Guru. Yes. Very easy. That is the secret. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve yathā gurau. Then he is sure to be successful. This is the secret.

Dr. Patel:

samo 'ham sarva-bhūteṣu

na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ

ye bhajanti tu māṁ bhakt yā

mayi te teṣu cāpy aham

Prabhupāda: Just see. They bhajanti, and these rascals has announced, "This bhajana is nuisance." Just see. This is Kali-yuga, and this is our Indian government. Ye bhajanti māṁ teṣam. He is always associating with God. "I am always with him," ye bhajanti, and this rascal has remarked, "bhajana nuisance." Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. These are the statements. But we are... We did not take any...

Dr. Patel: They are durācaris(?).

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should have taken some step against this, the "Why you have said like this?" But nobody has taken.

Dr. Patel: But we are going to take steps. Let that man come.

api cet sudurācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ

samyag vyavasito hi saḥ

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here... The first thing is one must have rigid, staunch faith in Kṛṣṇa. That is the qualification. Other things may be little devīation. It doesn't matter. The first thing is whether he is sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then he is sādhu.

Dr. Patel: Ananya-bhāk.

Prabhupāda: Ananya-bhāk, yes. He has no other business.

Dr. Patel: Because he is samyag vyavasito, he is rightly doing.

kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā

śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati

kaunteya pratijānīhi

na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati

Prabhupāda: "Although there are some bad habits," kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ, "because he is My devotee, he will not be lost. He will take to the right position."

Dr. Patel: I'll read this twice, and twice we are...

kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā

śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati

kaunteya pratijānīhi

na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: He has made a promise.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kaunteya pratijānīhi. He has not promised. He says Arjuna, that "You declare this." Because sometimes for His devotee He breaks His promise. But because His devotee Arjuna will promise, it will be never frustrated. "Oh, My devotee has promised." Therefore He says, kaunteya pratijānīhi, "You do this."

                                                                                                                                                                        370485

Prabhupāda: As soon as the kṣatriyas were negligent, immediately the brāhmaṇas should take step. That was the system. (break) ...offer advice to the kṣatriyas according to śāstra, and kṣatriyas would execute, and the vaiśyas would care for supply. And the śūdras, serving everyone. That's all. This is the system. (break) So he used to manufacture. To manufacture means śūdra.

 

Morning Walk                                              April 10, 1974, Bombay                                                             371753

Prabhupāda: That is our business. Preacher must be. (Hindi) (break) ...can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Rāvaṇa. He also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire, or Rāvaṇa was so devotee of Lord Śiva that he was cutting his head and offering to the Deity. Is it? You know, everyone?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why he is called rākṣasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason?

Mahāṁsa: Because he was trying to en...

Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that... I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rāma-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes. But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions, "Whatever you want." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brāhmaṇa by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point.

Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with... So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also... (break)

Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone... That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be... He may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we...

Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Śiva. Otherwise why Lord Śiva gives him whatever he wants?

Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the śāstra, rākṣasa. Similarly, in the śāstra it is stated that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: "If one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he is duṣkṛtina, the most sinful, mūòhā, rascal, naradhāma, lowest of the mankind, māyayā apahṛta-jïāna." These things are there. But if we quote the śāstra, that "This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord; therefore he is a rascal," then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong words, but it is stated in the śāstra. Just like about Rāvaṇa, it is stated that he is a rākṣasa. So it may be very insulting and strong words, but this is the statement of the śāstra. And if one quotes from the śāstra, what is wrong on his part? Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgement is that he should be punished. So can you accuse the court, "Oh, such a big man?" Just like... For the time being let us understand. Mahatma Gandhi was put to jail in so many times. So nobody could say because according to law there was civil disobedience. So if the law puts you in the jail, so can you protest against that? Then you will be also put into jail, contempt of court. Although everyone respects Mahatma Gandhi, but why he was put into jail? According to law. It may be it is man-made law, it is wrong, but the principle is that whatever is judgement of the śāstra, we have to take. It doesn't matter who is that man and how great he is. That is... Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim sa... The śāstra is given stress always. So you cannot go beyond the verdict of the śāstra. That is the injunction. (break) ...about Guru Nanak's statement that...

Indian man (4): Rāma gao rāvaṇa gao.

Prabhupāda: You just explain that.

Indian man (4): (Hindi) (break)

Prabhupāda: As soon as he said that, he was killed immediately. That is the atheistic version. "I don't care for God," So as soon as he became atheistic, he was killed, and so long he was chanting, "Rāma will kill me, Rāma will kill me," so he was not killed.

Indian man (4): He was a bhakta at that time according to the... (break)

Prabhupāda: He was chanting the holy name of Rāma.

Indian man (4): He was chanting Rāma, Rāma, Rāma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani, iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate. So so long one chants Rāma Kṛṣṇa, who can kill him? Yes. That is the point. (break) When he constructed bridge on the ocean, the stones were floating. Where is the law of gravitation go on? So He can do that. He withdrew the law of gravitation. (break) ...position of the demons. Although he is not learned, he will give instruction.

Mahāṁsa: (break) ...who is learned. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...business, that without being learned in the subject matter he wants to give instruction. (break)

Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." (break) ...no education. Still, one is called paṇòitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇòitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇòitji? (laughing) (break) That paṇòiya is also another form of paṇòita.

Indian man (4): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. From paṇòiya, paṇòiya. From paṇòitya, from paṇòitya, it comes paṇòiya.

Indian man (4): He is not a paṇòita. He is a pukka businessman.

Prabhupāda: Mean, I say this is going on. But śāstra says if one is engaged in a particular type of occupation, he should be called that. Yasya hi yal-lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyaï-jakam. To designate into certain type of varṇa, there are symptoms. That symptoms, yadi anyatra vidhiṣyeta, if it is found somewhere else, tat tenaiva vinirdiśet, one should ascertain by the symptoms. This is the sastric injunction.

Indian man (5): According to the work it is known.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even a man is born in the brāhmaṇa family, but if he is working as something else, so he should be... Practically also... Just like somebody is paṇòita, brāhmaṇa, but if he is doing the work of an engineer or doctor, he is addressed as "Doctor Saheb." That is practical. "Doctor Saheb. Engineer Saheb." Not "Paṇòitji."

Indian man (5): By birth he may be brāhmaṇa like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. By birth, there is no brāhmaṇa. By saṁskāra. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is...

Indian man (4): Birthright is not brāhmaṇa. No birthright.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man (4): Provided he has got the particular saṁskāra. (Hindi) That is the beginning of it.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is the beginning of saṁskāra. There is regular ceremony.

Indian man (5): But a very few people nowadays...

Prabhupāda: Still in Bengal, when the husband meets first the wife, there is saṁskāra. There is regular pūjā, patha. Then the husband and wife meet together. We had the same saṁskāra in our family. It was going on. When we were young man, it was going on.

Indian man (4): Semen ceremony.

Indian man (6): Semen means before the birth.

Indian man (5): After pregnancy, eight or nine months, something like that.

Prabhupāda: That is ṣaò-lakṣana. That is another thing. Before sex, there is a ceremony. That is called garbhādhāna. (break)

Śrīdhara: "...ceremony takes place after the birth of the child. The family members take baths, cleanse themselves, and decorate themselves with ornaments and garlands. Then they come before the child and the astrologer to hear the future life of the child. Nanda Mahārāja and other members of the family dressed and sat down in front of the birthplace. All the brāhmaṇas who were assembled there on this occasion chanted auspicious mantras." (break)

Prabhupāda: (break) ...Mahārāja. This is kṣatriya king. Who has got so many cows to distribute? They cannot maintain even one cow. He is handed it over to the slaughterhouse. This is our position.

Śrīdhara: "He not only gave cows in charity, but hills of grain, decorated with golden bordered garments and many ornaments."

Prabhupāda: Anna-vastra, anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. (break) ...give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. (laughs) Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, "One hundred rupees." What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. (break) ...earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money, they don't care, they do anything, but they give in charity. (break) ...purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So... So he distributed fifty percent to the brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava and twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. (break) Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village--all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of "advanced." And here is the... Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, in New Delhi the government has banned the use of milk in the sweet shops and there is no more cheese or any milk products.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And there will be no more. These things will vanish. That is stated in the... Rice, wheat, milk, sugar and fruits, they will be no more available. You have to eat meat. That day is coming. But before that day comes, you go back to home, back to Godhead.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything is finished, all this nonsense place, full of demons.

Śrīdhara: "They possessed such an abundance of various kinds of milk products that they were throwing butter lavishly on each other's body without restriction."

Prabhupāda: Just see how rich they were.

Indian man: So much butter and all these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Throwing butter like anything. Yes.

Indian man: Now we can see also.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Śrīdhara: "Their wealth was in milk, yogurt, clarified butter and many other milk products. And by trading their agricultural products, they were rich in various kinds of jewelry, ornaments and costly dresses." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. (break) If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. (break) ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. (break) ...proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress...

Indian man: Yes. You can recognize here. But now they are changed completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the girl has no this covering, that means she is virgin. She is not married. In this way all the signs are there. This is prosita bhartrka. Prosita-bhartrka means one whose husband is not at home, outside. Then she will not dress, she will not take regular bath, so that people may know that her husband is not at home.

Śrīdhara: She won't take bath?

Prabhupāda: Not, take bath not with any oil. Yes. Means she wanted to avoid very good looking. Yes, that is the idea.

Śrīdhara: "But although Rohiṇī's husband was away, she still dressed herself on this occasion."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...deliver each and every child to Kamsa, but in the case of Kṛṣṇa he did not do so. He did not deliver. He cheated him by changing. So to give protection to Kṛṣṇa, they had to do something, even it is not sanctioned. He violated because he promised before Kaṁsa that "I shall deliver all the children," and he did it. But when there was Kṛṣṇa, he broke the promise.

Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend it is very difficult...' "

Prabhupāda: Therefore Vasudeva is very jubilant that Kṛṣṇa is now alive and His birthday ceremony has been performed. Therefore he is so pleased.

Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend, it is very difficult for us to live together.' " (break)

Prabhupāda: ...cows were getting grass also. Water. But you will find there is no water, there is no grass in the field. And the government is sending the cows to the slaughterhouse. This is the condition of present India. In Europe, America, although they are selling the cows to the slaughterhouse, they have got enough grass and water. That I have seen. At least so long they live, the cows are comfortably maintained. But here there is no comfort for the cows. Now here the anxiety is whether the cows are getting sufficient grass and water.

Makhanlal: What's the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially.

Prabhupāda: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That... It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to... This has become a problem. So naturally, when the, there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapses. The so-called prosperity will be finished. (break) Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that "The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price." So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. (break) ...college they don't work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 12, 1974, Bombay                                                            372129

Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said, "Father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye asura-varya dehinām. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlāda..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sādhu manye asura-varya. He is adressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām.

Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also.

Prabhupāda: No. (lots of laughter) Demons would not come daily to see Kṛṣṇa's ārati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that...

Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not father, "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahāt: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt: "On account of their accepting this material world as everything, therefore they are full of anxiety. Now, to get out of this anxiety, so--hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam--ātma-pātaṁ, suicidal place, gṛha, household life, they should give up." Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. "And then what you will do?" "Oh." vanaṁ gato: "He should give up and go to the forest." "And then?" Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta: "And take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. I understand this is the best thing." And his father become more angry. "What this rascal is speaking?" like that. (laughing) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's all right? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (break)

Girirāja: "...all the cowherd men who went to Mathurā to pay tax returned home and were struck with wonder at seeing the gigantic dead body of Pūtanā." (break)

Prabhupāda: Here is description of Pūtanā, twelve miles. Big gigantic body. And nobody has seen such gigantic body. But it is described in the Bhāgavatam. (break) ...Mahārāja was so simple, village man, that he accepted Vasudeva, a great mystic. Hare Kṛṣṇa. A devotee says that "I prefer to become a dog in the house of a devotee."

vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukkura,

bhuliyā janaha mora

He is praying, "My dear Vaiṣṇava Öhākura, you kindly accept me as your dog. But you accept me." You see? "And I shall do this, I shall do this. I shall sit down on your door. I shall not allow any non-devotee to disturb you." He has sung like...

vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukkura,

bhuliyā janaha mora

"And I shall not ask you for any food. Whatever you like, you can give me a little eaten food. I will be satisfied. But keep me as your dog." That is the prayer, that Vaiṣṇava is prepared to become a dog even at the house of a Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He doesn't want anything more. He wants simply to be associated with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is Vaiṣṇava. (break)

Lilavati: What is that prayer in Bengali?

Prabhupāda: That is in Bengali. (break) ...tomara kukkura, bhuliya janaha more. (break)

Girirāja: "...all the residents of Vraja cut the gigantic body of Pūtanā into pieces and piled it up with wood for burning." (break)

Prabhupāda: Because she was killed by Kṛṣṇa, the whole body has become sanctified. So when the body was burned, there was good aroma. (break)

Girirāja: "...aroma was due to her being killed by Kṛṣṇa." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. (break)

Girirāja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology--then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Indian Man (2): Selfless class.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saìkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajïa. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajïa should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajïa. Then everything will be all right. (break) Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajïa, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks, in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajïa? (break) "...need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of yajïa," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make śūdras." Now, how you will be happy? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all.

Indian man (1): But they have provided you with motorcars and aeroplanes to go across the sea, reach America, France, within a few hours.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also credit. Because they have done something...

Indian man (1): Something to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage: "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required.

Indian man (1): Cinema can be used for education.

Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.

Indian man (1): So for improving our morality.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for saìkīrtana yajïa." Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa... Rūpa Gosvāmī has recommended that

anasaktyasya viṣayān

yathārham upayuïjataḥ

nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe

yukta-vairāgyam ucyate

We have no attachment for these things. Just like in America, I ride on Rolls Royce car. That does not mean because in India there is no Rolls Royce car, therefore I shall not walk. We are not attached to all these things. But if it is available, we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That's all. (break) ...the best use of a bad bargain. When there is a bad bargain, so intelligent man makes the best use. "All right, how it can be used for the best purpose?" That is wanted. (break) Newspaper men, they call me "jet plane parivrājakācārya." (break) But our process is for yajïa.

Indian man (1): You spread it like...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) We also say that "You take advantage of this, and also produce sufficient food grains so that people may not starve." Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Unless there is sufficient grain... People are giving more stress how to produce machine, but they are not giving any stress how to produce foodstuff. So many land are lying vacant. You go in India. So many lands. Not only in India. In other countries also. In England also we have seen. They are not taking care. Because it is very troublesome to put... "Better start a factory and get money easily."

Indian man (1): They are now thinking about it. "Green revolution."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) So much land is lying vacant. They could utilize for food grains. No. They do not do it. (break) ...they have been withdrawn from the villages to work in the city, in the factories, and the lands are lying vacant. (break) Mahimā siddhi, to become heavier. Animā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti, siddhi. There are eight kinds of yoga-siddhis. So those who are yoga siddha... Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. He became so heavy. (break) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (break) ...aeroplane, it comes gradually, there is no crashing, but if it drops all of a sudden, then it is crashed. So this Tṛṇāvartāsura could not do that. He felt so heavy, fell down.

Girirāja: "He hit the stone ground and his limbs were smashed. His body became visible to all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. When the gopīs..." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the performances of all austerities. One can get the result of all austerities simply by serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Girirāja: "...made charities and performed many welfare activities for the public, such as growing banyan trees and excavating wells. As a result of these pious activities, we have got back our child." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...very nice building. And one day death will come, "Oh, what is this?" Finish now. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. And as soon as death comes, all this construction becomes ah, finished. You have to begin another chapter, either as human being or as bird or cats and dogs or anything. That is another thing. But they do not know this. They are thinking that "This construction work will save me."

dehāpatya-kalaṭrādiṣu

ātma-sainyeṣu asatsv api

pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ

paśyann api na paśyati

That these children, they are seeing that "This thing will not exist. It has no value." But they are still busy, (laughs) still busy. Similarly, everyone knows that "Whatever we are constructing, it will be finished," but still, they are busy. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Girirāja: "Now he has come back to enliven his relatives. After observing such..."

Prabhupāda: So our policy is that if you want to construct, if you have got the tendency, so you construct for Kṛṣṇa. That will be service. Construct a temple for Kṛṣṇa. So that service will be taken into account. Similarly, when we use this motorcar or aeroplane, so in the same purpose... Now they have done this, let it be engaged in Kṛṣṇa conscious service. So one who has manufactured it, he will be benefited, and others will be benefited.

Girirāja: "After observing such wonderful happenings, Nanda Mahārāja began to think of the words of Vasudeva again and again." (break)

Prabhupāda: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple, simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is kṣatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaiśya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so, foreseer." (break)

Girirāja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality?

Prabhupāda: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva-dharma... He is a vaiśya, He should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhāvaḥ. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business.

Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was once nursing..."

Prabhupāda: But one thing is that Vasudeva was also thinking of Kṛṣṇa and he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As a simple agriculturist, he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And Vasudeva also, when he was asking him, "Go and take care of your children there," that was thinking of Kṛṣṇa. If the thinking of Kṛṣṇa is there, then either kṣatriya or vaiśya or brāhmaṇa, it doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same benefit.

ya eṣaṁ puruṣaṁ sākṣād

ātma-prābhavam īśvaram

na bhajanty avajānānti

sthānāṁ bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ

Everyone should understand that "Whatever I may be, I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." So if this consciousness is maintained and everyone is engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa by his work and by his occupational duty, then he is perfect.

Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was nursing her child and patting Him with great affection, there streamed a profuse supply of milk from her breast, and when she opened the mouth of the child with her fingers, she suddenly saw the universal manifestation within His mouth." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa here?" And died. He died. "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And died immediately. He said his mother, "Mother, you chant Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," because he has learned this. So after hearing, she inquired, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And died. So I told him, "You have done the best service to your mother." (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 13, 1974, Bombay                                                            372197

Prabhupāda: ...guru more mūrkha dekhi karilā śāśana.

Dr. Patel: Now I own it.

Prabhupāda: It is better to remain a fool. That is very progressive.

Indian Man (2): Fools are always ready, receptive. (break)

Prabhupāda: "I am fool, I must receive." That... These Sikh section. The Sikh means you always learn. Sikh, Śikṣa. Go on. (break)

Girirāja: "...one who is expert in the knowledge of the Supreme."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Brahma jānati brahmana

 

Morning Walk                                                April 14, 1974, Bombay                                                           372227

Dr. Patel: All vegetables are in tamas, in tamas...

Prabhupāda: No. Some of them, fruitful, those trees for supplying nice fruits, nice flowers, they are in the goodness. Everywhere the three qualities are working.

Yaśomatīnandana: There may be dog in the mode of goodness?

Prabhupāda: No, dog is an animal. He is in the ignorance. But the cow is in goodness. Sattva-raja-tamo.

Dr. Patel: Horse is in rajas.

Prabhupāda: Horse, lions. The monkey is in tamas.

Dr. Patel: And animal is in tamas and rajas...

Prabhupāda: Everything, there are three qualities, everywhere.

 

Morning Walk                                             April 20, 1974, Hyderabad                                                          372739

Prabhupāda: (break) ...wood is the strongest of all wood, this. (taps wood with cane or something) Very strong.

Païcadraviòa: What kind of wood is that?

Prabhupāda: It is guava tree.

Mahāṁsa: Guava, oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know what is that lattu, we used to play? What is the English?

Mahāṁsa: Spinning?

Prabhupāda: Like a small, and we used to...

Mahāṁsa: Oh, top, a top. Like that. It's top.

Prabhupāda: Top. What is called, top?

Mahāṁsa: That is made of this, Prabhupāda? Oh. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Very strong.

                                                                                                                                                                        372760

Païcadraviòa: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the śāstras of the yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic śāstras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Païcadraviòa: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here?

Prabhupāda: Who?

Païcadraviòa: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what?

Prabhupāda: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God?

Païcadraviòa: These things, they are also in Manu-saṁhitā?

Prabhupāda: That is for... Manu-saṁhitā forbids completely. Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. That is natural. (break) "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukṛti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated--again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yeṣam anta-gataṁ pāpam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gītā, yes.

Païcadraviòa: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛòha-vratāḥ

To stick to Kṛṣṇa bhajana is not so easy, that you will go on committing all sinful activities and you will become Kṛṣṇa devotee. That is not possible. You have to give up, and you have to come. But this is the process. You will be free, and you will understand. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya. If one follows bona fide guru's instruction and he is engaged in devotional service, then it is possible. Then it is possible. Otherwise, if he does whimsically then it will be a failure. He must carry out the instruction of the guru, bona fide guru. Guru means bona fide guru, not pseudo guru. And according... What guru will advise? To be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. These two things will help him. Otherwise it is not possible. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya: "By the mercy of guru and by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa." So both of them should be served. That is the process, not that "Now I have become advanced devotee. I don't require to serve guru." Neither, "Oh, I am serving my guru. I don't care for Kṛṣṇa," no. Parallel line. Not that "One line I can walk," no. Parallel line. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Therefore in our temple, along with Deities, guru is also worshiped. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ, if one accepts guru--"Guru is guru, guru is guru"--as ordinary human being, then that is offense, nārakī buddhi.

Mahāṁsa: That kind of worship is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei.

Païcadraviòa: Where is that śloka you were quoting last night from that ending gokala.

Prabhupāda: Go-kharaḥ, go-kharaḥ. That is in Bhāgavata. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ. You give him that śloka, (indistinct). So actually at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharaḥ, that's all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms--"I am this body," that's all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharaḥs, animals. (break) ...because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not?

Païcadraviòa: When the soul is entering, they are all complete?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there--Kṛṣṇa says--therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Kṛṣṇa, with dvi-bhuja muralī, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered?

Devotee: I will bring it today.

Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam, they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, post-graduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... (break) ...Park. (Name withheld) our. Yes, she said.

Mahāṁsa: She said?

Prabhupāda: No, no, she said. She was captured by a group of negroes to rape her. (break) That girl, what is his name? (name withheld) wife?

Satsvarūpa: (Name withheld).

Prabhupāda: She was raped.

Satsvarūpa: Trinidad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. She was raped.

Païcadraviòa: How do you teach a varṇāśrama college? In varṇāśrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be kṣatriya" or "I want to be vaiśya." Is it like that?

Prabhupāda: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru.

Païcadraviòa: Who will teach him to be a kṣatriya or who will teach him to be a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: A kṣatriya, a brāhmaṇa. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.

Païcadraviòa: So where will we get kṣatriyas and...?

Prabhupāda: That is in the śāstra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is kṣatriya.

Païcadraviòa: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Because he knows how to teach. That's all.

Païcadraviòa: The brāhmaṇas, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as...

Prabhupāda: This is also devotion, to teach a kṣatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion.

Païcadraviòa: And vaiśyas?

Prabhupāda: Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. Just like, the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) (break) ...lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice?

Mahāṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Kṛṣṇa. He knows.

Nitāi: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman.

Prabhupāda: Clergyman?

Nitāi: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.

Prabhupāda: Where he was?

Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...

Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.

Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.

Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.

Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a...

Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required.

Mahāṁsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁsa: He is a devotee. He is not a śūdra making garlands.

Prabhupāda: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Païcadraviòa: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupāda: Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava. He is above all these.

Païcadraviòa: A śūdra, if he is working, he cannot take brāhmaṇa initiation, but he can take hari-nāma, is that it?

Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brāhmaṇa, as śūdra, as kṣatriya, like that.

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

A devotee, because he is working as a śūdra, he is not a śūdra; neither he is a brāhmaṇa. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the śūdra's work nicely--let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahāṁsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupāda: Everything he will get.

Mahāṁsa: He gets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaiṣṇava." Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant.

Païcadraviòa: What if the person working as śūdra says, "I can do so much. I can...,"

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted.

Païcadraviòa: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, "I can't..."

Prabhupāda: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That's all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.

Prabhupāda: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.

Nitāi: One point that you made a few years ago in Vṛndāvana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitaḥ, if he simply hears about Kṛṣṇa then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then it is difficult. Therefore śravaṇam. The first thing is that. The first qualification--he must be eager to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will come. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kīrtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we...

Prabhupāda: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service.

Païcadraviòa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it.

Païcadraviòa: Some persons we encounter they don't even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are...

Prabhupāda: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this.

Satsvarūpa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though.

Prabhupāda: Then he is animal.

Satsvarūpa: But still, he's doing lots of good devotional service.

Païcadraviòa: He may even be manager.

Prabhupāda: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. (break) And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that "I am so busy."

Païcadraviòa: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you can chant more, that is good. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...must associate with them, that is difficult.

Prabhupāda: But you do your business. You don't follow them. That's all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that "Next day also, I am busy," then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. "Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting"--this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somebody, after initiation he promises, "Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds," before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaiṣṇava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating. Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiyā.

 

My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. …Now politics is coming in. As soon as we are getting money, the politics coming. That is a great concern.

 

 

So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy.

... But if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, his consciousness will be purified and he will be made not interested this kind of work. He will go back to village and produce food.

 

Yajïa means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajïa. So in the Kali-yuga the yajïa is made very easy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anywhere you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and see that there will be clouds, there will be rainfall, and just work little, you get your foodgrains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

But if you perform yajïa, there will be systematic rainfall, which you can utilize properly.

 

...encouraging in our society to take to agriculture to support this center. I am purchasing land in Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura to become self-sufficient. Whatever production you make, you be satisfied. Little vegetable, little grain and little milk. That is sufficient.

 

Don't be after these motorcars, television, and all nonsense things, sporting, wine, women. Don't be after these. Simply eat sufficiently, keep your health nicely, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, realize Kṛṣṇa, and go back to home. This is our philosophy.

 

Stick to your own place and grow your food. There is no question of transport. Little transport is required, that bullock cart. Kṛṣṇa was being carried on bullock cart. There is no use of petrol. Use simply the bull. They are already there. Utilize them.

 

We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussion, how we are going to solve.

 

Dhanaïjaya: So in fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should start using bullock carts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindaban. Make this perfect.

 

So everything will be nice provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food.

 

No, you engage yourself.

 

Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds.

 

Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere.

 

... Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetables. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties. If you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled.

 

That is the main basic principle. Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful.

 

There will be no city. We don't want cities.

 

Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate

 

My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point.

 

So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes."

 

We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics.

 

You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.

 

So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more.

 

Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly.

 

This condemned civilization must be stopped.

 

So simply they are captivated by money.

 

No, both the male and female. The bullocks are used for so many other purposes. They can till the field. They can be used for transportation, so many other purposes. Or even we are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. During Kṛṣṇa's time... Kṛṣṇa was born of a very well-to-do father, but at that time the bullocks were engaged for transportation from one village to another, one village to another. Or for carrying goods. Actually the United Nations should now think how the whole human society can live peacefully for a purpose of life, not whimsically, without any purpose of life.

 

And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse.

 

So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict.

 

Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk--mother. And bull is producing food--he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility.

 

You have got food grains, fruits, flowers, milk. Enjoy life. Offer to Kṛṣṇa. Enjoy life.

 

A little labor in agriculture will be sufficient to produce the family's food stock for the whole year. You can stock. You work only three months, and you get sufficient food for your whole family. And less nine months, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals will not do that. They will work hard like ass simply for eating. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. They will not accept easy life.

 

It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all.

 

Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people.. How nature will tolerate?

 

Just like by nature there are four division in the body--the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director.

 

Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.

 

Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness.

 

Therefore immediately human society, a class of men who are fully conversant with the Vedic conclusion required to guide these rascals, socially, politically, in every respect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is our philosophy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME NINE

Morning Walk                                             April 29, 1974, Hyderabad                                                          373318

Prabhupāda: Actually, if we become successful then all these things will be finished. Yes. (break)

Devotee: They are attracted by wonderful things such as Sai Baba. He is doing so many wonderful things. People...

Prabhupāda: That is, means rascal. He does not see Kṛṣṇa's wonderful. If you want to see wonderful things, why don't you see the more wonderful things? But they are foolish; they are captivated with small wonderful things. That means less intelligent. Just like small children, they will be amazed by seeing small wonderful things, but his father will not be. What is the amazement, wonderful thing, Sai Baba has done? If he is creator of gold, then why he is doing business of incense? You know that? He has a big incense business exactly like us. He can create gold? Why there is incense business? (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to give to His mother some gold when there was need of money. "Mother, I got this gold. So you can utilize it." The mother would think that "We are poor men, we have no gold. Wherefrom this boy brings gold?" So he (she) was doubtful because he (she) was thinking, "My son is mad, sometimes crazy." So he (she) would go, "Is it real gold? Just see." Then. "Yes, it is real gold." "Hm, how He got it?" You see. (break) ...many yogis, they make such gold for meeting their expenditures. Yes. Still in India they know how to make gold from copper. Yes. The process is they will drink mercury at night, and in the morning they will urine on the copper coins. And then, after some hours, the copper coins taken and put into the fire, it becomes gold. And it is scientific that some molecules of mercury, if mixed with copper, it is gold. Gold is combination of mercury and copper. But the people cannot mix it. They have tried. That is called alchemist. They tried to mix it. Because they do not know the process, as soon as mercury is put into fire, it immediately goes out. You melt copper, and in hot copper, if you put mercury, it will not melt together. Immediately it will throw away. So some of the yogis, they know. They digest copper, er, mercury, and it comes in the form, urine. And then the copper is put there. There is an interaction, and then put into fire. It becomes gold.

Gargamuni: So we should start manufacturing.

Prabhupāda: You first of all eat mercury then. (laughter) You'll be finished. (break) ...no scarcity. Why should we go to imitate the rascals? We have got enough gold. Kṛṣṇa is supplying gold whenever we require. (break) ...artha-prayojanam. Whatever you need, Kṛṣṇa will supply, if you actually remain dependent on Kṛṣṇa. There are so many literatures of different groups, but who is selling so much? Forty thousand, fifty thousand daily? Unless Kṛṣṇa is helping us. In the history no religion book have sold thirty thousand, forty thousand daily. There is no history. So why don't you see this wonderful thing? All the money that I have brought from USA, India, it is all book fund. Nobody has given. George has given. That is not in cash. And he gave that two lakhs. That was spent for Kṛṣṇa Book. So wherefrom the cash is coming?

Gargamuni: Sales of books.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Because we have got substantial sale of books, we are free to get money. And it is unbelievable that religious books are sold thirty thousand, forty thousand, fifty thousand daily. There is no history.

Gargamuni: So that is a miracle.

Prabhupāda: Is it not miracle?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Some of those devotees like Tripurari, a hundred big Bhāgavatams. It's not a popular book.

Prabhupāda: It is not popular actually. For the common man it is dry subject. And I have heard that after reading one book, somebody comes to purchase. "What is this, Bhāgavata?" "We have got six." "All right, give me six volumes." He is not a devotee. Why he purchases all the six volumes of Bhāgavatam? In London our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is was sold in two months, thirty thousand copies. That is the report. Thirty thousand copies.

Yadubara: Even though they don't understand the subject matter, they purchase.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break) Bon Mahārāja has written part of Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. And he published it before my coming to foreign countries.

Gargamuni: Yes. He has not sold any.

Prabhupāda: No, he has sold some, but still lying in the store. He published only one thousand copies. Our Nectar of Devotion, the translation of the same book, is selling like hotcakes. Yes. In the university, Temple University, they have made a textbook. And everywhere they like it, Nectar of Devotion. I think... What is our edition at the present moment? Fourth or Fifth edition. And we don't publish less than ten thousand copies. So we have to depend on Kṛṣṇa sincerely. Serve Him, everything, what is required, that will come, some way or other. That is miracle. Why should we try to cheat others, that "I can manufacture gold"? This rascal, if he can manufacture gold, then why he is doing himself business? That is simply jugglery. Even the magicians, they can do. They create so much money. But he is a poor man. Why he remains poor? And everyone thinks of us, that we have got unlimited wealth. You know that?

Gargamuni: Yes. In Māyāpura, when I bring over the karatālas, they are very heavy, two hundred sets of karatālas. So the boatmen say, "Sona, sona." They are thinking it is gold, the karatālas.

Prabhupāda: Everyone... Even government... In the parliament the question was raised, "Wherefrom they get money fabulously?" These men, in our country, they may be fools. In your country also, Los Angeles, I mean, neighboring storekeepers, they are wonderful, that "These people do not work and they have got so many cars and live so nicely?" (laughing) They inquire that "How do we get all these things?" They actually see that they are not ordinary working. They have no working or bank balance or business. Still, they have got so many cars and they eat nicely and they maintain such a nice house. And six, seven house they have purchasing. The realtors, they also know in America that we are very rich men. As soon as there is some property, they offer, because they know that we are very rich men. Because we have purchased some properties, so all the realtors, they have taken it for granted that we have got immense money. Here also, the members are thinking like that, that "Swamiji has got immense money."

 

Morning Walk Excerps                                   May 1, 1974, Bombay                                                              373638

Dr. Patel: Christianity it is really Vaiṣṇavism, but they, unfortunately... The church...

Prabhupāda: Mohamedanism... Mohammedanism...

Dr. Patel: The church has spoiled it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Church has defaced it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere.

Dr. Patel: It is the church, Christian church, which has defaced Christism.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everywhere the followers make the whole thing bungled. Hm. Go on. (break)

Dr. Patel: (break) No, he saw them there.

Prabhupāda: No, he never went. Not that. Never went because all of them were thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Therefore He never went.

Dr. Patel: But they met again in...

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya na padam ekaṁ gacchati. Kṛṣṇa... Physically it was seen that Kṛṣṇa left, but Kṛṣṇa remained within their mind. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) No, Kṛṣṇa came also.

Śrīdhara: "We gopīs of Vṛndāvana having left our homes, friends, and relatives have become Kṛṣṇa's maidservants but He is..." (end)

 

Morning Walk Excerpts                                   May 2, 1974, Bombay                                                             373649

Prabhupāda: ...arrange meetings in the school, colleges, societies, big, big halls. Because they may not come. They are not attracted to the temple meetings. They think, "This temple is temple, some priestly class." They want philosophy, logic, science. So they have to be convinced. Not sentiments. So those who are advanced, they are not in favor of religious sentiments, because they have got experience, "Now, some sentiments..." But they do not understand what is this sentiment. Therefore they have to be understood through logic, philosophy, science. (break)

 

ConversationRoom  (2)                                    May 24, 1974, Rome                                                              374325

Richard Webster: And Christians, how do you present this? Suppose if someone was a Christian.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Christian, if you take... Just like Lord Jesus Christ is a bona fide teacher, and he has given his teaching, his commandments. If you follow those commandments, then you are bona fide student. But if you don't follow then you are not bona fide.

Richard Webster: And if you try to follow but fail or if you...

Prabhupāda: No, you must follow. You cannot fail. Just like Lord Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." You must follow that. If you do not follow, then you are not Christian. It is not the question of that you could not follow or you are weak to follow. You must follow.

Richard Webster: But the Christians have a thing about forgiveness of...

Prabhupāda: Whatever is there...

Richard Webster: Within the Christian religion there is a strong emphasis on possible failure and forgiveness.

Prabhupāda: No. Forgiveness is... I know that in church the confession program is there. Forgiveness... Suppose you are or I am an offender. I ask your forgiveness. So you can forgive me once, twice, thrice, not more than that. You cannot make it a profession that you go on committing sins and God will forgive you. No, that is not possible. That is misconception. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. This sudurācāraḥ, means offender, that is not willful offense. One person is accustomed to some bad habits, but he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. But on account of strong habit, if he fails sometimes, that is excused, forgiveness, not that willful committing sin and ask for forgiveness. That is not allowed. In common affairs we do not see. I have got practical, I mean to say, experience. In my householder life I was proprietor of a big pharmacy. So my manager sold some morphia preparation to some unauthorized person. So the sales inspector, they noted it and made us a criminal. And the magistrate called me because I was the proprietor. So my statement was given that "I do not conduct the business directly. Of course, I am responsible for my manager's fault, but I shall be very strict in future. You can forgive me." Immediately I was forgiven. But next time, if I go, if I say like that, that is not forgiven. That is not possible. So this forgiveness is good for accidental fault. But it cannot be continued, that is a wrong philosophy.

Richard Webster: Does that apply to all the rules of the Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Richard Webster: For everyone. I mean rules about not drinking...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Richard Webster: Would that be a sin in a non-Kṛṣṇa follower?

Prabhupāda: It is for everyone. When we speak something from the Vedic scripture, that is meant for everyone.

Richard Webster: I mean a Roman, perhaps, has never heard of Kṛṣṇa before. He breaks all your five rules, does he not, every day. Is that a sin in him? If he drinks wine...

Dhanaïjaya: He's saying, all the people in Rome who have never heard of Kṛṣṇa...

Richard Webster: They drink wine and do all the things which are... Well, perhaps not all, but anyway, some of them. Would that be...

Prabhupāda: I do not...

Dhanaïjaya: He's asking if they're very sinful if they don't have any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or any of the rules of our movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Ignorance is no excuse. If there is law and if you do not know the law, and you commit offense, that is no excuse, that you do not know the law. Similarly, human life is meant for understanding God. That is the main business of human life. If one does not know this law, then he is sinful.

Richard Webster: Yes, but the difficulty is for me, for instance, that I have the pope here who is telling me perhaps the same thing in spirit but with different rules, different laws practically. I mean the spirit seems to me to be the same, but...

Prabhupāda: Law cannot be different, but it can be modified according to the time and circumstances. But the law cannot be different.

Atreya Åṣi: Maybe you could ask specific examples of differences.

Richard Webster: Well, for Roman Catholics it is right to drink wine, for instance.

Atreya Åṣi: Drinking, intoxication.

Richard Webster: Not intoxication, to drink wine.

Atreya Åṣi: What is wine? He's saying that a Roman Catholic can take wine. The law allows them to take wine.

Richard Webster: Or tobacco or meat.

Atreya Åṣi: Or tobacco or meat. So the rules are different.

Prabhupāda: Then rules are not different, but we have to see. Just like your commandments. In the commandments there is "Thou shall not kill." Then how you can eat meat?

Richard Webster: Well, that is a possible argument, but I'm thinking about even lesser things such as wine or...

Atreya Åṣi: Wine. Can...

Richard Webster: And no Roman Catholic will admit that it is wrong to drink wine.

Prabhupāda: Wine is sanctioned?

Richard Webster: I don't mean to get drunk. I mean to...

Atreya Åṣi: Wine, for today's Roman Catholics, they think it is sanctioned.

Prabhupāda: They think so many other things also. Just like Roman Catholics, there is example: they have allowed marriage between man to man. Do you know that?

Richard Webster: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. They publish a monthly magazine. I have seen in that magazine. They are condemning that the priests have allowed marriage, man to man. And...

Richard Webster: In New York maybe. Not in Rome.

Prabhupāda: Christianity does not mean in New York it should be different and Rome it should be different. Then nobody is following.

Atreya Åṣi: Could it be, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this sanction of wine drinking be from God? Could that sanction come from God? Do we think that is possible?

Prabhupāda: We don't find there is sanction by God to drink. But under certain circumstances, beverages, different types of beverages allowed, not for intoxication but for keeping health. That is different thing. Just like in the moon planet, it is mentioned they drink soma-rasa. Soma-rasa is a kind of beverage made from extract of herbs. So because it is very cold there, so they drink that, but not for intoxication. People drink for intoxication. Just like in medicine, so many drugs are used. Even opium is used. Yes. Morphia is used. But they are not used ordinarily. For a specific purpose. Even snake poison is used, but that does not mean snake poison should be used perpetually. So for benefit of the body under particular circumstances something may be recommended, but that is not for general use or for intoxication. That is condemned. Just like animal killing is sometimes prescribed in the yajïa. The purpose is different. But that does not mean unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse should go on, no. That is sinful. So if we violate the laws perpetually, then how we can consider as belonging to a certain group of religious system? There must be principles.

Richard Webster: Well. I understand. But I only think that the dietetic rules would be perhaps an obstacle to the spreading... I mean certain rules which are clean against European or American custom might constitute an obstacle to the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I mean, in the Roman Catholic church you have the monks. Then you have the laity who observe less strict rules without being considered outside God. And you don't have that, do you? I mean, the Kṛṣṇa movement is a movement of what we should call monks or religious... There is no laity in the Roman Catholic Christian sense, people of the world who are doing messy things, I mean, trading the drugs or whatever it is because it's a job they have to do, but belong to the church without being strictly religious.

Prabhupāda: At least the church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules.

Richard Webster: Yes. But I mean the difference seems to be with the Christian...

Prabhupāda: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but the head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men's human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads.

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas

tat tad evetaro janaḥ

sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute

lokas tad anuvartate

Just like in America, the president Nixon is charged with so many offenses. So... This is not good. He is the head of the state, and he has been charged with so many pollutions. Then how people will follow exemplary character?

Richard Webster: Well, I don't know whether these accusations have been proved in regards to Nixon. They may be true.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I think they have. What are the charges against Nixon?

Atreya Åṣi: Certainly he already... It all depends on the standards that we want to have for a president. In other words, he has not been convicted, but he has accepted, himself, certain charges, that he has lied and he has tried to save his men, and therefore he has lied, and he has evaded taxes.

Richard Webster: Well, I don't know about that, you see. I'm only...

Prabhupāda: No, there have been so many charges against president Nixon. So no, whatever it may be, we are not concerned. But this is the Vedic principle, that the king or the executive head of the state, the brāhmaṇa and the public leader must be very clean. Otherwise society will be spoiled. That is the injunction.

Richard Webster: Yes, well, of course, I agree.

Prabhupāda: At the present moment there is all over the world... We are touring all over the world. It is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful, self-controlled, mind and the senses, and then tolerant, very simple life, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body, there are four divisions. The head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People, advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another. If you are passing on in the street, the gentleman's house there is a signboard, "Beware of the dogs. Don't come in," because he cannot believe anyone. You go to the airport, any high-class standard man. They search out the pocket. So nobody is believable. So this is the result of modern education. You cannot find out an ideal character man.

Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited because our aim is to create some first-class men.

Richard Webster: Well, I agree with you.

Prabhupāda: These boys, although they are young men, they will never go to cinema. They are young men. They have got all propensities. But they are so elevated, they have given up all these low propensities, going to the club, restaurant, and cinema or naked dance and this and that, no. Because they are first-class men, they cannot indulge in the third-class, fourth-class proclivities. We are training them in that way. That is required.

Richard Webster: Well, yes, you said restaurants.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Richard Webster: Is it that it depends on the restaurant or is that necessarily bad?

Prabhupāda: Yes, our principle is that we can eat only what is offered to God. So we cannot eat things in the restaurant because it is not offered to God. We may prepare nice things for Kṛṣṇa and offer to Him. Then we take. This is our principle. Yajïa-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajïa. Yajïa means worshiping the Lord. So worship the Lord, it is not difficult. Everyone is cooking for eating, every home. So cook certain things which is acceptable to Kṛṣṇa. Then offer to Him and take the prasāda. There is no difficulty. But you become purified. Yajïa-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Because willfully or not willingly, we are committing so many sins.

Richard Webster: Yes, I appreciate that very much. I only say is it not possible for things to be dedicated to God without actually being placed on the altar in that way? I mean what people may be doing that in different ways maybe...

Prabhupāda: No, thing is, if you want to offer to God, then--God is all-pure--the things you offer, that must be pure. And you must follow the instruction of God. Suppose if you want to give me something eatable, as a matter of etiquette, you ask me, "What can I offer you?" And if I say that "You offer me this thing, and that is very nice," you cannot offer me according to your whims. That may not be acceptable by Him.

Richard Webster: Yes, I was thinking...

Prabhupāda: That, your dedication, must be with the sanction of God. If you dedicate something which is not sanctioned by God, then that offering is not pleasing. Suppose I have got a certain taste. If you ask me, "What kind of food I shall prepare for you..." In India, still the system is that the housewife asks the husband, the head of the family, "What you want to eat?" (break) ...offer something to God, you must take sanction from the God if He wants to eat that.

Richard Webster: Oh, well I was thinking of things like work, the work which people do, with that offered to God...

Atreya Åṣi: Service.

Richard Webster: The work...

Prabhupāda: Yes, the service also, you must take sanction. Anything you want to do you must take sanction from the Lord. You cannot do anything whimsically and you think that "I am rendering service to the Lord."

Richard Webster: Oh, yes, but then the sanction, would that apply to scientific activities like engineering, one of the factories of producing (indistinct)

Atreya Åṣi: Would God sanction activities in the factory, technological, scientific world?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no sanction. These are all sinful activities.

Richard Webster: These are material activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have created all these things. God has not sanctioned. God has not sanctioned for running on a factory. Therefore as soon as you run on a factory, you simply commit sinful activities. In the Bhagavad-gītā we don't find any such sanction that you run on a factory, a slaughterhouse or the brothel and this business and brewery no such sanction. But you have done at your whims. Just like in the last war, Mr. Churchill sanctioned or requested everyone to go to the church. What is that "V"? Victory? Yes. And now... Before starting the war, Mr. Churchill and company did not take any sanction. And when they were in reverse condition, then, that time, they are going to the church for victory. So God cannot be made in such a way as order supplier. That is not possible. This is not prayer. You start war whimsically, and when you are in a precarious condition you go to the church and pray God, "Give us victory." What is this? This is commanding God. But you have to follow the commands of God. That is your position.

Richard Webster: Lord Chamberlain tried to stop the war.

Prabhupāda: Well, Chamberlain may tried, might have tried to stop the war, but he could not stop the cause of the war. So far we know that the two wars started by Germany on account of Britain. So far I have studied. The German people did not like the Britishers to occupy the trade all over the world. And wherever they went to trade, they were restricting. I know this fact. In India the Britishers monopolized all trade, and they would not allow German goods to come in. So that was the cause of the war. The German knew that the Britishers, they are purchasing from Germany and stamping it "Made in London" and selling in India at high price. And when the Germans go there, they are not allowed to enter. This is the cause of the war. The Germans still, they do not like to speak in English. They are so envious. So Chamberlain might have tried to stop war, but his nation created the cause of the war. Why there should be... That was the demand, that free trade. Germans, in the, what is called, peace negotiation, their demand was free trade. Everyone... And that is very good. Why trade should be... This is unnatural. Let there be free trade. General public, they want best thing at good price, at cheap price. So if Japan and Germany can supply goods, necessary goods, at cheaper price, why they should be restricted? Let the people take advantage of it.

Richard Webster: Well, I don't think they are restricted now.

Prabhupāda: No, it is going on. In India I know. They are selling sugar at two annas, four annas a pound, or seer, outside, and India, it is four rupees. What is this nonsense? This is going on. They want to import some war materials or something else, therefore they want export exchange. So they are sacrificing the convenience of the local people for export exchange. These things are going on. These politicians, they create an atmo... Therefore I say the head of the state, they must be clean. But they are all motivated. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. Generally politician has got a particular motive behind him. And when he cannot pull on they declare war. That Pakistan. Pakistan, since the beginning of Pakistan they could not make any economic condition very sound. But when the people are too much agitated, they declare war with India. The whole attention is... And they have been educated in such a way that India is their strongest enemy. Anything Indian, they dislike in Pakistan. So this is going on by the politicians. They are creating situation because they are not honest, they are not clean. And a clean man cannot become politician. Mr. Lloyd George said that "consistency by the politician is the qualification of an ass." There cannot be any consistency amongst the politicians. So that is the defect, that the politicians are the heads, the leaders of the society, and they are in disagreement. Everyone has got his own ideal, and the fight is going on, and the poor man in the state, they are suffering. Just like in India they partitioned, Pakistan and Hindustan. It was arranged by the leaders, Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru. Especially Jinnah. The people are suffering. And the Britishers made partition in such a way that they will remain continually in war because everyone wants the necessities of life. The foodstuff is in Pakistan, and the industry is in India. So the Pakistan will suffer for want of industry, and India will suffer for want of food. This is British plan for partition. They had no business to divide the country, but they wanted to do it as a parting kick, that "You want independence. You will have independence, but you will remain perpetually in war." That was British policy. None of them are benefiting. Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want. That is the duty of the leaders to see. Perpetually they are in want, in scarcity, not in peace of mind, full of anxieties. In India especially, we see, the economy is so unsteady. The money value is decreasing every day. Nobody knows what will be tomorrow. Rice is selling today at two rupees kilo, tomorrow, three rupees, next day, four rupees. Where is the income is coming? Therefore there is strike, railway strike. So this is the mismanagement. They cannot guarantee. At least in England I have seen that... Or why the England? In America also, the people are happy in this: they have got enough foodstuff, no scarcity. You see? India is in always scarcity. Goods are there. It is hoarded by somebody else. He will not let loose. He will not... Many goods are there, sufficient. The government stock. The government stock because the black marketeer, they have got some arrangement. So many things are going I don't wish to discuss. It is due to unclean politicians, unclean head of the department. Things are so mismanaged, and people are suffering.

Dhanaïjaya: I was reading in the newspaper that a few days ago India exploded a nuclear bomb, an atomic bomb, underground. This was the first step. And they have declared that this was used for peaceful reasons, in order to develop...

Prabhupāda: There was a cartoon. When I... One leader is approached for food, that "We are in scarcity of food." The leader says, "Of course, it is very difficult to assure you for food grains. But from next week you will have television." (laughter) Next week you will have television. So these improvements are going on, television, but they are starving. This is going on. Advancement of knowledge and learning is going on in discovering television, but there is no food. This is the mismanagement of the leaders. Dishonest. There is enough food. Punjab still produces food grains. Bengal still produces rice, but they are stocked by government men, and they are mishandling. They are lying on the station for dispatch, but they will not be dispatched. They are rotting. Rainy season spoiled the whole stock; still, they are not dispatched. Official: "There is no dispatch order. There is no wagons available." Simply mismanagement or bribe. This is going on. And people are suffering. How it is possible to purchase? Suppose India's income, the average income, is very poor. Suppose one man earns ten rupees a day, and if he has to purchase ten rupees simply rice for the family, ten..., what for others? Then he becomes dishonest. He wants to earn money by taking bribe in his own capacity. So bribing has become a custom. Anywhere you go, unless you bribe, you cannot get release. And they say that "Whatever salary we are getting, that is not sufficient. Our extra earning is by taking bribe." And now in the Western countries also the difficulty is arising. I do not know whether you are already, I mean to say, aware that so many boys, they are becoming hippies. They are reluctant to do anything. That is a very dangerous sign. If you... If unemployment, no engagement, that is not good for the country. Everyone should be employed. Everyone should be engaged in some service. That should be the policy of the government. And everyone should be happy, without any anxiety. That is good government. So many people unemployed, doing nothing, producing nothing. Is it not a problem?

Richard Webster: Absolutely. It's the same everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere.

Richard Webster: Except Germany, I suppose. I suppose everybody works in Germany still.

Prabhupada: So there are so many problems. On the whole, the material world is full of problems. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā by the Supreme Being, Kṛṣṇa, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. "It is a place of miseries." You cannot make things very rightly going on. It is not possible. Therefore the best purpose will be served--leave this place, material world, and go to the spiritual world. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are advising people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and that way, he will be able to leave this place of miseries and enter the eternal life in the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti.

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

This is our... We don't try to adjust things here; it is not possible. It is not possible. However big philosopher I may be--I may give my ideas--it will never be possible to make here things peaceful. No, that is not possible. Just like if you want to make the lavatory very scientifically..., it is, after all, lavatory. Every minute it is becoming contaminated. So similarly, this world is so contaminated that you cannot make it completely free from contamination. That is not possible. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. It is a place of miseries. And actually it is the fact. Now we are trying to get out of miseries, is it not? The civic activities means to get out of miseries. Is it not?

Atreya Åṣi: Yes, enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Whole attempt is to be out of miserable condition. Just like medicine. What is the medicine? Medicine means an attempt to get out of the miserable condition of disease. But you cannot stop disease. You may discover very improved method of medical treatment, but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. You can, I mean to say, discover many means to stop death--that is going on--but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. So in this way... And the Bhagavad-gītā says that you might be very advanced in civilization and scientific knowledge to make improvement, the condition of life, but you cannot make solution of these things, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. Birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot counteract these things. Still you have to...

Richard Webster: Do you think it's worse now than it used to be? Can you say that it is worse, the condition of the world is worse now than it used to be or is it relatively the same or...?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Worse now in these days because people cannot eat even. The facility which is given to the birds and beasts... They have no problem of eating. But you have created such a civilization that people are facing the problem so acutely that they have no means to eat. Do you think it is progress?

Richard Webster: Well, I would tend to doubt it very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem.

Richard Webster: But some things have improved.

Prabhupāda: Many countries... Especially we are Indian. We have seen in India. Nowadays there is no eatables. The government cannot supply food, failure, the problem which is not even amongst the beasts and birds. The birds and beasts, they have no such problem. They are freely living, jumping from one tree to another, because they know there is no problem of eating. And human society, there is problem of eating. What is the advancement? And there is enough place for producing food. I have seen Africa, Australia. Enough place. If the foodstuff is produced there, ten times of the population can be well fed. But they are: "Don't enter. Don't come here." The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow. On God's side, this unit, this planet, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate--everything is complete. You require water. They save three times water than the land. And the water is distributed over the land, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ so there will be sufficient food grains. And annād bhavanti bhūtāni. And if there is sufficient to eat, have sufficient eatables to the animals and to the men, then everything is prosperous. So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Why there should be industry? You want to eat after all. Instead of eating this flesh, killing poor animals, why don't you produce food grains, fruits, flowers, food grain, and take milk from the animals and produce milk products, all nutritious food, all nice food, and be happy and remember God for His kindness. This is civilization. What is this nonsense civilization? Now there is petrol problem. I see so many buses, and not a single man, one or two men. And for two men a big huge bus is being run, and so much petrol is consumed unnecessarily. I have seen. I went from Nairobi to London in a plane--only five passengers. Out of that, four passengers we were. Why? Why this nonsense? And there is petrol problem now. They are creating simply, the so-called advancement of civilization, creating problems, that's all. And that is due to these rascal leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. They do not know what is the ideal of life, what is the aim of life. They are creating hodge-podge civilization and putting the mass of people in chaotic condition. This is the sum and substance. I do not know whether you'll agreed with me, but this is my study of the whole situation.

Richard Webster: Yes, well, I can't disagree with that.

Prabhupāda: These are described in the śāstra as anartha, unwanted things, no artha. Artha means there is some meaning. But they have created a situation which has no meaning, anartha. And the medicine, remedy for anartha, is suggested also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. Find out this verse. Yes, Bhāgavata. Just find some... This.

Devotee: 1.1?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The index of the First Canto, you find out this verse...

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

We have got solution for all the problems. If people take it, they will be happy.

Nitāi: Page 324. (reads verse, translation and purport, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.7.6)

Dhanaïjaya: What was that last sentence?

Prabhupāda: In Africa and Australia, they are killing the animals and exporting. So in other countries they are getting meat to eat, and so they are very free to produce bolts and nuts by industry. They don't require to produce food because from Africa and Australia they are getting meat. This is going on. Instead of producing food, people are interested in producing motor car bolts and nuts. So why there should not be food scarcity? After all, you require to eat. But instead of starting industries, why don't you produce foodstuff? What is this civilization? Produce foodstuff. The animals will be nicely fed, and the men will be nicely fed.

Richard Webster: What civilization there is comes chiefly from the television, I'm afraid. I mean the public opinion is made by the television.

Atreya Åṣi: The television today is setting up the standard for the civilization, for today's civilization.

Richard Webster: But they talk about nothing but name war (?) and...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) pictures.

Richard Webster: It's much easier. They're producing more television sets (indistinct)

Yogeśvara: It's a great science. My mother is an executive in a public relations firm. Her business is to show products, goods, to people that otherwise they have no need for and to convince them that there is some value. It's a very big industry, especially in the United States, public relations, advertising. It's very psychological too. They use all kinds of psychological techniques for inducing people to take things they have no need for.

Prabhupāda: All right but thing is that after all our prime necessity is food. So why people are not engaged to produce food?

Richard Webster: Well, in Italy they don't like to work on the land any more. They all want to live in town.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. That is the defect.

Richard Webster: Especially in Italy.

Prabhupāda: You do not want to live in the village, farm. In your country I am seeing. America, the farmer's son, they are leaving. They are not coming back to the country. In India also.

Atreya Åṣi: Cities have become centers for sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Atreya Åṣi: And it attracts...

Richard Webster: Who?

Atreya Åṣi: Sense gratification, sensual living.

Richard Webster: Oh, sense gratification.

Atreya Åṣi: Yes. So it's attracting undisciplined senses.

Richard Webster: Well, I don't call it sense gratification. To me there's no gratification in city life.

Atreya Åṣi: That's because you're wise.

Prabhupāda: On the whole, as I began, that there is no guiding men. The brain is lacking.

Richard Webster: Well, perhaps I should go now. I've taken too much time. Excuse me. Thank you very much and...

Prabhupāda: Give him some... Give him some... Just wait.

Yogeśvara: It's our custom in Vedic tradition that anyone who comes is offered graciously foodstuffs...

Richard Webster: Oh, thank you, yes, I've been here quite long. Thank you.

Yogeśvara: Maybe you can stay just for a moment.

Richard Webster: Yes, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. In the Vedic civilization even an enemy comes to your home, he should be offered respect. Take more. Now, these foodstuffs are meant for human being. They are not meant for cats and dogs. You should produce more of this foodstuff. And the remaining balance, the skin, you can offer to the animal. They will eat. You take the substance, and the outward, external skin you offer to the animals, and he will eat. She gives you milk. This is cooperation. You produce... Man can produce fruits and flowers, grains, take the substance, and the rejected portion give to the animal. She gives you milk. You require milk. This is cooperation.

Richard Webster: Well, I do myself because we have a small garden and we grow vegetables, (break)

Prabhupāda: ...will the state allow you to kill somebody and remain peacefully at home?

Richard Webster: Is it wrong to kill, to eat fish?

Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything, even grass, without the sanction of God, what to speak of fish and others. You cannot eat even a piece of grass. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kiïca jagatyāṁ jagat, tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā. Everything belongs to God. You can simply enjoy after being sanctioned by God. Otherwise not. This is real philosophy. Everything belongs... Just like in this room, it is supposed that everything belongs to me. Even my students, they ask, "May I take this?" They have got right to take, but still, they ask. Similarly, you cannot touch anything--everything belongs to God--without His sanction. This is God consciousness.

Richard Webster: Yes, well, I wholly agree with that.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything...

Richard Webster: I entirely agree with that.

Prabhupāda: ...whimsically. It is not possible. Tena eva sa ucyate. If anyone does whimsically, then he becomes immediately thief. So you are a big philosopher. Kindly you spread...

Richard Webster: Very small philosopher.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Anyway, if you spread this God consciousness, this knowledge of God consciousness, philosophy of God consciousness...

Richard Webster: Yes, well, I'm going to write an article on that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanaïjaya: Mr. Webster has your Bhagavad-gītā, and reads it very intently. And a few days ago he came back for another copy which he recommended to his friends.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. You kindly try to spread. Everything, whatever we speak, our philosophy, this is based on this Bhagavad-gītā. That's all.

Richard Webster: It's very difficult when you're talking to Europeans. I mean...

Yogeśvara: But here we're not American or European.

Richard Webster: Yes, but I mean in the West it's a very different kind of difficulty...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is difficult because people have become godless. Still, we have to try our best. The task is difficult, undoubtedly. It is very difficult task, to bring back people to God consciousness. But still we have to do it to satisfy God. He wants it.

Richard Webster: Well, I'm so very glad. Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Richard Webster: Hare Kṛṣṇa. I'll see you tomorrow.

Yogeśvara: During your conversation with this gentleman, you mentioned that there was nowhere any sanction by God for industry or business. So does that mean that these workers in factories and industries, to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they could not go on with their work?

Prabhupāda: No. Our recommendation is that whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even the workers in the factory, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Even in factory, they take some leisure hours. So why not sit down for five minutes, ten minutes, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? Apart from the work they are doing, we are recommending, "Whatever is done is done. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right." Where is the wrong?

Yogeśvara: But eventually it's understood they must stop their industry.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of stopping. If that is their livelihood, how they can stop it? That is not possible. But they can add this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting. Then things will be adjusted. It is not possible to stop different methods of livelihood. That is not possible. If one can stop, it is well and good, but even he does not stop, he can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Yogeśvara: But ultimately isn't our idea that the city complexes shouldn't remain, that things should become more spread out to farm and rural areas?

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. If this man is fed up with this industry, he can go back to village and produce his own food. But he is attached to this industrial activity because he is thinking that "We are getting more money for wine and woman and meat. Let me enjoy." That is the perfect, imp... But if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, his consciousness will be purified and he will be made not interested this kind of work. He will go back to village and produce food.

Morning Walk                                                   May 25, 1974, Rome                                                             374663

Prabhupāda: Yajïa means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajïa. So in the Kali-yuga the yajïa is made very easy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anywhere you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and see that there will be clouds, there will be rainfall, and just work little, you get your foodgrains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: They won't like that idea.

Prabhupāda: That means their... That is their disease. The same thing, that "Why you are sitting here? Come with me, work." "What shall I do by working?" "You get money." "Then you'll enjoy." "And I am already enjoying." That the... This is called māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. These rascals, simply for little temporary so-called benefit, they have created this working civilization, "Work very hard, very hard." That's all. Whole history... In this Rome city you can see. There are evidences. These buildings are constructed with hard labor. Now those rascals have gone, and they are maintaining, that "They worked so hard." Those who worked very hard they have gone away. Now nobody knows where they are and what they have become. But they are maintaining their bricks.That's all. Brick civilization. (break)

Yogeśvara: No  one goes into the park at night. Too dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They have created such a civilization.

Yogeśvara: The little boy of President John Kennedy was in Central Park last week, and another boy came and pushed him to the ground and stole his bicycle. The president's son.

Prabhupāda: From the very beginning, stealing, and robbing. What is this picture? One horse without any...

Yogeśvara: I think it is the horse of the hunter.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: They're the knights that live in the mountains here. It's called Alpina, live in the Alps.

Prabhupāda: Ah. (break) ...spoken by Kṛṣṇa,

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in the Kṛṣṇa Book, Kṛṣṇa Himself argues that you don't need... He argues at the time of the Indra sacrifice that you don't need yajïa. The rain will come anyway. That's what they say nowadays.

Prabhupāda: That was to irritate Indra. (laughter)

Satsvarūpa: But they take that argument of His. Where is the proof that the rains are controlled by God?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa says the rain will come, but Kṛṣṇa never says that without rain you can cultivate. So Kṛṣṇa's purpose was because I am the Supreme Lord, Indra will supply, his father will supply." So that is another thing. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Without rain, you can cultivate." Never said.

Yogeśvara: Well, what if they argue that "Whether we perform yajïa or not, these rains will go on. They are coming now and we are not performing yajïa."

Prabhupāda: "Because I will order. You are already performing yajïa, worshiping Me, loving Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Tasmiṁs tuṣṭe jagat tuṣṭa. If you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, Indra's father will be satisfied. Just like if you water on the root of the tree, all the Indras, as branches and leaves and foliage, they will be satisfied. That is the purpose. Kṛṣṇa wanted to impress this that "You simply love Me, and everything will be supplied."

Devotee: Why is it that the rains come in certain parts of the world and in other parts people do not have enough?

Prabhupāda: No, no part of the world is nowadays sufficient rain. Because they are not performing yajïa. Sometimes it is seen that over-rain, overflood, not systematic. But if you perform yajïa, there will be systematic rainfall, which you can utilize properly. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ.

Devotee: Kīrtanānanda Swami says that in New Vrindaban the weather is changing every year. It is getting nicer there. Much more sun and the winter is not so hard.

Atreya Åṣi: In New Vrindaban it's getting better.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there are so many devotees. The people are still being maintained on account of our chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Devotee: By the grace of pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...encouraging in our society to take to agriculture to support this center. I am purchasing land in Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura to become self-sufficient. Whatever production you make, you be satisfied. Little vegetable, little grain and little milk. That is sufficient.

Yogeśvara: In the Vedic culture, was the land divided, in the sense that some people would receive land free or...?

Bhagavān: This is nice here, this ground.

Yogeśvara: The land in the Vedic culture, some of it was...?

Prabhupāda: Land belongs to the king, and you take land for cultivation, and you pay 25% tax to the king. That's all. All taxes. If you don't produce, then don't pay tax.

Yogeśvara: Oh, it wasn't forced that you had to pay so much.

Prabhupāda: No.

Atreya Åṣi: You pay 25% of what you have produced.

Prabhupāda: What you have produced, that's all. Very simple thing. Everyone was engaged producing. There was no necessity. And here the rascals are advising, produce bolts and nuts, tire, and drill petrol. They are not producing food. And the so-called government men, they are levying taxes, and they are enjoying. They haven't got to produce food. They are killing animals, eating, and digesting with wine. And then woman. That's all. This is their business. And food price is increasing daily. They don't mind because they will print paper, and to the supplier they will give paper. That's all.

Bhagavān: Print more paper.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. This is the civilization, cheating, bluffing. That's all. They don't care for the citizens. And as soon as there is some agitation, they declare war, so that they can be engaged, attention is diverted. This is going on.

Bhagavān: Now with paper money, any country can print any other country's money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore inflation. Suppose I am an enemy. I print dollars like that, and distribute. So the inflation is there. And the price is increased. If you get money for nothing, you will be prepared to pay anything. Suppose there is one mound of rice. I have got these printed notes. You are offering ten rupees. I will say twenty rupees.

Atreya Åṣi: That's inflation.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Because I did not earn this money, I have printed. I am prepared to twenty rupees. So he says, "Why shall I pay ten rupees? I must wait for the customer, for twenty rupees, and hoard it." Even there is sufficient stock, he will not sell. Therefore the other man, who is honest, he is suffering. This is going on. So to stop this inflation, the government must stop this paper currency. Then the inflation... There will be no more inflation. But that they will not do. They want to cheat people. "In God I trust. Take this paper and you be satisfied that you have got thousand dollars." That's all. This cheating is going on. Why should you pay me paper? Give me real dollar, in gold. That they have none. They haven't got. That's all. They will employ laborers and cheat them by paying these papers, and this rascal will think that "I am getting more money." That's all. Since this world has taken this paper currency, the situation has degraded. Formerly there was barter exchange. That was very good thing. Still in Indian villages, the remote villages, there is barter. Yes. He has produced some grains, paddy. He will bring to the storekeeper. And the storekeeper will take, "For so much oil, you have to give me so much paddy." So he will weigh and keep it and give him oil. So he will arrange to sell the paddy. But for the villagers, he brings the paddy and he takes. They require little salt, little oil, some spices. That's all. Otherwise they have got their own thing. They have got dahl, their rice, wheat, everything. They have produced. In this way, still there are, Indian villages. There is no question of scarcity.

Bhagavān: The easiest way to manage, then, is to have everything more or less in small villages.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was Gandhi's philosophy, village organization. These people, they are attracting villagers to work in the factory, and they are exploiting them. Instead of producing food, they are attracted by so-called high salaries, to the factory, and they are producing bolts and nuts, motor parts. But food is produced somewhere else. But the food producers, they are working in the factory. Therefore scarcity of foodstuff. But this factory owner, he has got more money. He doesn't care. The poor public, they are suffering. Our philosophy is that you produce your food anywhere. You stay, and keep cows, take milk, produce vegetables, food grains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is our philosophy. Make your life successful. By becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become free from all these troubles of material condition. This is our education. Don't be after these motorcars, television, and all nonsense things, sporting, wine, women. Don't be after these. Simply eat sufficiently, keep your health nicely, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, realize Kṛṣṇa, and go back to home. This is our philosophy.

Satsvarūpa: But sometimes, because this materialistic society is so far advanced, you say we cannot actually hope to change it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is a fact. We cannot hope to change. But we request everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: In their factory or wherever they are.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is very difficult to close the factory. That is not possible. So whatever you have done, it is all right. But you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then things will be adjusted. We are giving chance to everyone, who is degraded or who is not degraded, by the simple method of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We do not neglect anyone. We do not say, "You are neglected. We don't accept you." No. I accept you and I accept others. What is this? Cemetery? No. It is also part of this park? (break)

Bhagavān: ...people tolerate such obvious mismanagement.

Prabhupāda: As long as they will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have to tolerate. They must suffer. That is nature's law. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā... You cannot escape all these miserable conditions of... Mām eva ye prapadyante. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you escape. What is difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: "Simply always think of Me." We have got nice Kṛṣṇa. And attend the temple, and we see. And what is the difficulty to think of Him always? Or chanting, hearing His name. So there is no difficulty in remembering Kṛṣṇa always. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. To become devotee, worship the Lord in the temple, prepare food for Him, and take the prasādam--where is the difficulty? The program which we have introduced, where is the difficulty there? But the rascals will not take. That is the difficulty. They will become hippies, but they will not become devotees. Although a better position. This is their misfortune. Duṣkṛtina, misfortune. In spite of the things being so easy to perform, they will not take to it, on account of misfortune. Duṣkṛtina. Because they have committed so many sinful activities, it is difficult to accept this. Otherwise, the thing which we are presenting is very easy to be accepted by anyone, even by a child. And actually we see. The children, they are also dancing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and very happy. In Dallas. In all schools the children are unhappy, their face. And we see in Dallas, all children, they are so happy. The teacher is happy. The student is happy there. Have you not marked the face in the picture, how they are happy. Did you mark it?

Devotee: Yes.

Bhagavān: To accept our way, though, they think "That means I have been totally wrong." And they have so much pride that they don't want to change it.

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). A mūrkha, a rascal, when he is given good advice, he becomes angry. He becomes angry. He does not take for solution of the problem, but he becomes angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaìganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (?). Because they are miscreants, like snakes, if you give him milk, his poison will increase. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaìganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam.

Yogeśvara: When I was at the university, there were two kinds of strikes. One was by the students and the other one was by the professors.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) And what about the clerks? They also strike sometimes.

Yogeśvara: They took advantage of the two.

Prabhupāda: Everyone dissatisfied--that's a fact. This is a bad civilization.

Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī is giving a course in Paris at one university, and there we can't always have our classes. We are scheduled every week, but we've only had two or three. The whole rest of the time the university has been closed because the students were striking. Practically the whole year.

Bhagavān: (car screeches as passing by) So fast and they go nowhere.

Prabhupāda: He is proud that "How fast I can drive!" Just see. And where you are going? "I am going to hell, that's all. Never mind." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā Just like the flies. They are coming very forcefully. Where? In the fire. Pat! Pa! Pa! Pa! Pa!" They are very busy. And as soon as on the fire, finished. Just see. Very busy. Without inquiring, "Where I am going so forcefully?" But they are going to the fire.

Satsvarūpa: We should go on the walk. The cars are coming on the road.

Prabhupāda: So we shall walk? (break) ...containing three passengers, wasting petrol. Similarly, hundreds and thousands and millions of cars and buses are running all over the world, simply wasting petrol.

Bhagavān: When there was the oil crisis in the United States, they were giving reports how some person would go in his car, go ten miles in a big car to buy one pack of cigarettes.

Prabhupāda: Stick to your own place and grow your food. There is no question of transport. Little transport is required, that bullock cart. Kṛṣṇa was being carried on bullock cart. There is no use of petrol. Use simply the bull. They are already there. Utilize them. No. The bull should be sent to the slaughterhouse. Petrol should be used.

Atreya Åṣi: They try to solve every problem by transportation, by airplanes, cars. For example, we had this big conference in Montreal. From all over the world came... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 26, 1974, Rome                                                                374730

Bhagavān: It appears that by taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one becomes less materially benefitted.

Prabhupāda: That is the benefit they do not understand. Here the philosophy is to make nil material benefit. And that is sometimes havoc for others. Niṣkiïcanasya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... (aside:) Don't bring near. Niṣkiïcanasya. Niṣkiïcana means... Kiïcana means something and niṣkiïcana means even no something. Kiïcana means something, to possess something, and niṣkiïcana means to possess nothing. Niṣkiïcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana... So go back to home back to Godhead, is meant for such persons who has nothing to possess here. That is very difficult. Niṣkiïcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. The real aim, real benefit, is how to be transferred to the other nature, spiritual nature. Pāraṁ param. They do not know that beyond the sky, there is spiritual sky, there is another nature. They have no information. Even they do not know what are there in higher planetary systems. They think, "Here everything is..." This is an insignificant planet in the whole creation, but their fund of knowledge so poor, they think this is the position. They are trying to maintain what was achieved.

Dhanaïjaya: We can go down. We can go around.

Bhagavān: The stones seem very rough. Maybe we go back this way.

Prabhupāda: I have no objection.

Yogeśvara: There are stones on the ground, too.

Bhagavān: A little material benefit, that increase, they take to be spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gymnastic. Just like a man, by bodily exercise, he becomes a little strong. His digestive function becomes very easy, he can eat more. He can enjoy more sex life. These benefits they want. And if you promise all these benefits, they become attracted. And they cannot understand, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya. After giving up this body, we do not accept anymore material body, but go to back to home, back to... These things they cannot understand.

Yogeśvara: Can we take a picture right here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: It is beyond their understanding.

Bhagavān: We are the only ones who are preaching like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual benefits, they do not understand. What is this building? This is also old construction?

Bhagavān: It's a church. (asking someone:) Is that from the Roman empire? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...in right position. All wonderful buildings, there is no doubt. Such huge buildings in any other parts of the world is not visible. Just the thickness of the building.

Bhagavān: They kept many slaves the Romans. They had many slaves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Slaves? This word is used in Vedic language also, slave. The Africans, they were meant for becoming slaves.

Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we take a picture here please?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. So the Kirātas, they were always slaves of the Āryans. The Āryan people used to keep slaves, but they were treating slaves very nicely. Later on it degraded. Otherwise, slaves were kept just like family members.

Bhagavān: They had no resentment.

Prabhupāda: No, they were very happy. Just like you keep a dog. It is slave but it is very happy under the protection of good master.

Bhagavān: Actually, they like to work hard.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they like to work hard and they want good protection. That is their happiness. Even still in Africa, the servants, domestic servants, Africans, I have seen in Indian family, they are very happy. They are very happy, and the master also takes care of them. They want to eat sumptuously, and that's all. They have no other ambition. They don't want any motorcar or like this, no. And they work very nicely, domestic work, very clean. But sometimes they steal. That is their habit. My father used to say, "If you do not allow the servants to steal, so don't keep." Don't keep servants. "A servant who does not steal, he is not a gentleman. He must steal."

Bhagavān: He must steal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their satisfaction. So you must allow them. In old zamindar family, they will pay the manager five rupees per month, salary, and allow them to steal. That was simply a token salary that "You are servant." And the manager was so clever, he would steal, but he would not spoil the property of the master. He will manage very nicely that he will extra, make extra income and steal. The master will not be touched. Master will be happy. Master knows that "I am paying him five rupees. That is nothing." And he is constructing big building, getting his sons and daughters married very luxuriantly. Master is... Even fifty years before, there was a zamindar, Raja Manindra Candranandi. He was very magnanimous man, making various charities. So if somebody will complain, "Sir, your this servant is stealing like this," he would be very angry. The man who complains, he will be angry upon him, "Why do you come and complain?" He will not accept any complaint. Rather, he will be angry with the man who complains.

Yogeśvara: May we have one more picture, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What are the history of these buildings?

Bhagavān: These were temples here, demigod temples.

Prabhupāda: This style of building, arch, is seen in New Delhi also, constructed by the Moguls. This was also a temple?

Bhagavān: No. This was an arena where they used to watch wrestling, fighting.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...devotees, they do not want any opulence of this material world. They are, what is called, pessimistic. They do not give any value to the opulence of this material world. And it is very good philosophy. But fools and rascals, they are attracted. Now, these buildings were constructed, very highly intellectual men undoubtedly, but they enjoyed, say, for hundred years. That's all. Then their bodies changed, and nobody knows what kind of body he has got. This is materialism. Suppose if you are offered some very nice comfortable life, and if you know that "Next life I am going to become a dog," would you be happy? But they have no information that what next body... Body, he has to take another body. He cannot enjoy. Whatever he has created, he cannot enjoy for good. That is not possible. He has to leave it. Just like these Romans. They have left. They constructed so big, big building just to enjoy, but they had to leave it by nature's force and accept another body. That they do not know. They are satisfied, "Never mind, I accept the next life a dog's body. Now let me enjoy this, say, twenty-five years or fifty years, that's all." This is their philosophy. No future. "Trust no future, however pleasant." In India, those who are interested in spiritual life, they take sannyāsa. Everybody sannyāsa, bābājī. Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up his service, everything, and became no possessions voluntarily. Big, big kings, Bharata Mahārāja... To practice that "I have no more interest in anything material." (break) ...introduction of my Guru Mahārāja that sannyāsīs and preachers may use big, big buildings, motorcars and..., just to give the information to the western world. Because they, if you ask them, that "You become a mendicant, possessionless," still, they are not very much interested. Because they see our dress, our living condition is not very equal to their standard, they do not like. Is it not? Yes. So just to give these Westerners facilities at least to understand this philosophy, this method was accepted by Guru Mahārāja, to live in nice building, to have cars, to use everything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, nobody would take.

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 27, 1974, Rome                                                              374781

Prabhupāda: So we can discuss some of the problems, about the problems. Discuss what are the problems.

Bhagavān: Now? We shall discuss now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussion, how we are going to solve.

Bhagavān: The biggest problem now is that they have built up a type of society in which their needs are all coming from petrol energy. To produce what they need today is all coming from this petrol energy...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bhagavān: ...which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don't have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation.

Prabhupāda: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport. You don't require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindaban, we stay, we don't go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol?

Bhagavān: Petrol they also use for heating. And electricity.

Prabhupāda: No, heating. Heating we can do by wood. By nature.

Dhanaïjaya: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that all we require is some oxen, and the oxen can carry.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The oxen will solve the problem of transport. That bullock cart. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was transferred from Gokula to Nandagrāma, so they took all the bullock carts, and within a few hours they transported them, the whole thing, their luggage, family member, everything.

Bhagavān: How far can a bullock cart travel in one day?

Prabhupāda: At least ten miles, very easily, very easily. And maximum he can travel fifteen miles, twenty miles. But when we are localized, we don't require to go beyond ten miles, five miles. Because we have created a rubbish civilization, therefore one is required to go fifty miles for earning bread, hundred miles, hanging.

Dhanaïjaya: Like in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Why Los Angeles? Everywhere. In New York they are coming from hundred miles. From the other side of the island. First ferry steamer, then bus, then so on, so on. Three hours, four hours, they spend for transport.

Satsvarūpa: Is this an ideal solution or a practical one?

Prabhupāda: This is practical.

Satsvarūpa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our society will be ideal by practical application.

Satsvarūpa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. If you like, you live like us.

Bhagavān: Example.

Prabhupāda: Example.

Satsvarūpa: Not that we dictate to the... Not that we are going to force everyone.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to force anyone. "Our mode of living is like this. If you like you can adopt." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that "You also, you must chant." No. We live like this.

Dhanaïjaya: So in fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should start using bullock carts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindaban. Make this perfect.

Devotee: There was a big meeting of scientists in Stockholm, Sweden, and they talked that if humanity don't begin to live in a localized way like you say, in fifty years will be no more source of production.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. We can produce from anywhere, foodstuff.

Bhagavān: What about the question of using petrol for heat? Another import, there is three uses of petrol, or four. One is the transportation, one is heat, another is electricity, and a fourth is they use it to manufacture so many products. So what if someone asks...

Prabhupāda: No, you go on products, with your product. You have created problem, you go on with your problem. But we live like this. If you like, you can adopt.

Bhagavān: What is our solution to heat? Wood?

Prabhupāda: Heat? Yes, wood. Sufficient.

Dhanaïjaya: But they are saying they used all the wood for paper, so there's no more wood.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Paper you can make from grass, from cotton. So many other fibers. You don't require wood. You grow grass, sufficient quantity, and you make paper. Why should you publish so many rubbish literatures? Just like you were telling. The Times of India, the newspaper. (Sound of cars) This is the difficulty, walking on street. Therefore I wanted to go to the park. This is disturbance. So paper, if we don't produce unnecessary paper, there is no scarcity. From grass. You produce grass, huge quantity of grass, you will get paper. Cotton also. First-class paper. In India also, the rejected paper. From rejected paper you can get another paper also. But they throw it away in your country. Collect this rejected paper and again put it into paper. And why should you publish all rubbish literature? Simply publish Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, that's all. What is the use of this newspaper, nonsense newspaper, huge, huge quantity? So everything will be nice provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food. Even you can produce your own paper. You don't require printing of so many books. If there is one book, others can imitate, or copy. There is no need of printing. Formerly they used to do that. Here is the...

Bhagavān: Do you want to go in the park? (a lot of noise from cars)

Prabhupāda: Now?

Bhagavān: I didn't understand that about one book.

Prabhupāda: One book... Suppose we have prepared some small quantity of paper. So you can, if you want that book, you just copy another book.

Bhagavān: By hand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no need of printing books.

Bhagavān: Some people would be engaged in copying books.

Prabhupāda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy. That's all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kṛṣṇa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kṛṣṇa, Therefore they go to the dog's pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That's all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it.

Bhagavān: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago. You know that Dr. Ghosh?

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom--he is Englishman--that "In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease." So Dr. Ghosh as a student, "Oh, it is horrible." So he replied, "Why do you say, 'Horrible'? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that." That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent percent must be.

Yogeśvara: There was a report in the New York Times that last year alone in the United States there were over 300,000 abortions, and more than two-thirds were performed on girls under twenty years of age.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that "I am this body." This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am a big dog here. Don't come." Similarly, if a man thinks, "I am a big American, I am great Englishman," then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization says, "No, you are neither dog nor human being." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that "I do not belong to this, any material condition. I am Brahman part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Where is that conception?

Bhagavān: Now they have... the other day in the paper that India exploded its first atomic bomb.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great.

Yogeśvara: Now its in the top six.

Prabhupāda: But there is no food. Never mind, you starve, but get your atom bomb. That's all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, "Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television." This is their program, "From next week you will have television." As if television will minimize my hunger. This is the civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol.

Bhagavān: You say in the, I think it's in the Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we can think like that. Just like the plane, aeroplane, is flying. There is sufficient petrol stock. Is it not? So the world has got sufficient petrol stock. If you do not know how it is being used, maybe due to this petrol, it is floating. And if you take away the petrol stock, it may drop. Everything is there. There is a purpose. Pūrṇam idam. There is full purpose. Not that whimsically petrol is there within the earth. There is some purpose.

Devotee: What they do, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is take the petrol out and put salt water, because they know there can be a imbalance. And then they put salt water in the holes.

Prabhupāda: But water cannot produce gas. Petrol produces gas. Maybe due to that gas, it is floating. Because we have got practical experience. When there is gas, you can float anything.

Dhanaïjaya: Like a balloon.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: There is another big problem that now all the opposing countries have built up excess amounts of atomic weapons all pointed at each other. So now they are trying to have big planning conference how to diminish all these weapons.

Prabhupāda: If there is no opposite elements, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā: "As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become jubilant." So where is your enemy? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days. So many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any (indistinct), very quickly this Communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight, like cats and dogs. "Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood." So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is "You come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest." Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: "Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest." And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept here. (loud truck noise)

Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this isn't a place for walking. (break)

Yogeśvara: ...all the major nations of the world have... These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things.

Prabhupāda: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me. You go to hell, I go to hell. That's all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. (laughs)

Bhagavān: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bombs can be used in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Prabhupāda: It will be used by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. He is thinking that "I am proprietor of this atomic bomb," but he does not know that the other's atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him. That's all. He does not know that. He is thinking, "I am very proud of possessing." But that will be the cause of his death.

Yogeśvara: Is such an atomic war foretold in Bhāg...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Next war means atomic war. All these rascals will be killed automatically. I will kill you, you'll kill me. That's all.

Yogeśvara: Is that war to occur in the recent future? Or is that a long way off?

Prabhupāda: Very recent, very recent future. This Communist and Capitalist mentality will bring the next... The Communists will be victorious.

Dhanaïjaya: And after the war what will be the result?

Prabhupāda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem... Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kṛṣṇa the leader, then the Communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God the supreme dictator, then every-thing is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya, then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere.

Bhagavān: We can make our own cloth? Khādi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth.

Dhanaïjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth. Without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil's workshop.

Bhagavān: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becoming...

Prabhupāda: Anyone who hasn't got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple?

Dhanaïjaya: This is Mary, the...

Yogeśvara: The Virgin Mary.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this.

Yogeśvara: Mahatma Gandhi formulated many such programs for producing khādi, for cow protection and so on.

Prabhupāda: No, he did not make any cow protection.

Yogeśvara: No? We know from your teachings that he was missing the point.

Prabhupāda: Missing... The point is God. He was atheist. He did not believe in Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: But from the level of application of his programs, is there some value?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man.

Yogeśvara: All Indians worship Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. Otherwise, how was he killed?

Yogeśvara: Every place we go, we see Indian's homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables.

Prabhupāda: You, you have not visited everyone's house here. The three, four house you have visited. That's all.

Bhagavān: You haven't even been to India. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Don't talk all this nonsense.

Bhagavān: We can keep horses? We can use horses?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality.

Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be... They should not possess, so that they will work always.

Yogeśvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted.

Prabhupāda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited?

Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that, "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.

Bhagavān: They like to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: It's not that people like to be idle.

Prabhupāda: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service because they are assured of their family, protection, medicine, food, education. They did not like. Never mind, it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen.

Yogeśvara: Because there are good benefits.

Prabhupāda: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter, and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system.

Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists... Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow. You cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else?

Bhagavān: That's not good?

Prabhupāda: That's not good.

Bhagavān: So in our community, when we grow things, or we have need of someone's services, how are these services distributed equally? Let's say we grow cauliflower, we grow peas, we grow wheat. Is it that each family must be responsible and take only what he needs? How is it distributed?

Prabhupāda: No, no. These varieties... Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetables. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties. If you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled. We have got some desire of different quality of varieties. That you can make. From milk, vegetable, grains, the three things, you can make three hundred varieties.

Bhagavān: But my question is, if the community produces... Some class of men produce vegetables and grains, some class produce cows, some class produce clothes, some class produce necessities for building. How are these things distributed equally?

Prabhupāda: Because we are community, we shall distribute whatever necessity for everyone.

Bhagavān: They will come and say, "I need this much cloth, I need this much milk."

Prabhupāda: No, this much cloth... But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will be satisfied with the minimum necessities of life. That is natural. You won't demand.

Yogeśvara: So actually such a program can only be successful proportionately with the rise of Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main basic principle. Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful.

Yogeśvara: They won't be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhagavān: The kṣatriyas make sure that people are correct, acting correctly, that no one is taking more than what they need?

Prabhupāda: Naturally he will do. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, if he attends the Kṛṣṇa conscious program, naturally he will do. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. That is the progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will be satisfied in any condition of life. That is progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He doesn't require anything artificially. His main necessity is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if his attention is diverted in that way, these things will be not important.

Yogeśvara: So then we should begin our rural communities like New Vrindaban, and then by training up people in the cities, we can send them gradually...

Prabhupāda: There will be no city. We don't want cities.

Bhagavān: What about our city temples?

Prabhupāda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. City means... For the present we have got. Because the city is there, we are there. But suppose the city is closed. We shall be there? If the city is closed, you still will be there?

Yogeśvara: But we can predict that the cities will go on for quite some time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When one gets a better standard of life, naturally he will give up the lower standard of life.

Dhanaïjaya: But won't the countryside be spoiled if there is an atomic war?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The what is called...?

Dhanaïjaya: Radioactivity.

Prabhupāda: By atomic bomb... What is that? The... It says in your country, that you divide the city. I just forget.

Yogeśvara: The result of the bomb?

Prabhupāda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village.

Bhagavān: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities where the industry is.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Yogeśvara: The targets will be the cities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used at the villages. Downtown, downtown. (laughter) The downtown will be first finished. I have got experience during the last war. The bombs were being thrown in Calcutta and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown.

Bhagavān: They know they don't want to bomb the countryside or else how can they live?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: The overpopulation is in the city.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: They think that overpopulation occurs in underdeveloped countries, but actually in every city it is overpopulation, people living on top of each other like rats.

Prabhupāda: (loud noises) These are subway trains?

Dhanaïjaya: No, these are ordinary trains.

Prabhupāda: So all your problems solved?

Bhagavān: No, not yet.

Prabhupāda: Put problems. I'll solve.

Yogeśvara: Here's a problem. The women today want the same rights as men. How can they be satisfied?

Prabhupāda: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are working. They don't want equal rights with men. It is due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking very nicely. They are satisfied. They never say that "I have to go to Japan for preaching like Prabhupāda." They never say. This is artificial. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women, men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no artificial (indistinct) (loud traffic noises)

Bhagavān: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but...

Prabhupāda: Subway?

Dhanaïjaya: No. This is also public transport, other trains.

Bhagavān: But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can't cook, they can't clean, they can't sew.

Prabhupāda: All rubbish, these modern girls, they are all rubbish. Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 28, 1974, Rome                                                              374943

Dhanaïjaya: In Greenland?

Prabhupāda: Others cannot live locally.

Satsvarūpa: That's not their karma?

Prabhupāda: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?

Satsvarūpa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.

Prabhupāda: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.                                                               

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Prabhupada: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Krsna consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.

374969

So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?

Dhanaïjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.

Prabhupāda: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.

Yogeśvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.

Prabhupāda: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all.

Yogeśvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."

Prabhupāda: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacārī, naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.

Yogeśvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.

Prabhupāda: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He remained completely brahmacārī, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī--no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed--it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇòūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyāsa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyāsa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.

Yogeśvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced?

Prabhupāda: Why do you marry?

Yogeśvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble.

Prabhupāda: That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Kṛṣṇa conscious, and you will find, without sex, you will be happy.

Yogeśvara: But what do we advise such women?

Prabhupāda: Whatever they, others women, they may take lesson from them that, "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe (?). One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one, when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde. If one is actually advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will deride, "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, advancement. The only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we have to say. So answers are all right or not?

Yogeśvara: No, very nice. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Vidvān, the most learned man Vyāsadeva has written this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

This is all described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul. Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault. That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to this material world. How? Simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The Bhāgavata says that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband"--these are the guardians--"if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now human being; I shall become demigod. Or I am dog, I shall become human being." The karmīs, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real advancement: no more accepting any material body. That is the real advancement. Just finish. This sense can come in human form of life, that "I have suffered so much. I have come through so many species of life. Now I have got sense." So the reply is there that mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvataṁ nāpnuvanti: "Anyone who comes to Me, he does not come again to this miserable condition of material existence." We should take advantage of this. That is human civilization. What is this human civilization? Jumping like dog, in a motorcar, that's all. This is not civilization. This is dog civilization, that's all. And actually what benefit they have derived? They are not satisfied. One man has got this car, and next year another car, another car. And the car manufacturer also giving fashion. "This is 1974 edition, this is 1975 edition." And they are earning money with hard labor. "All right, get a motorcar." And again, next year change. What is this civilization? No satisfaction. They do not know where is the point of satisfaction. It is dog civilization.

Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.

Yogeśvara: Well, for example, ultimately, we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary.

Prabhupāda: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindaban. They are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your foods... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then what is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping, "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible? To solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible?

Satsvarūpa: No, it's very simple.

Prabhupāda: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. There is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally. In Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden.

Dhanaïjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there.

Prabhupāda: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport. You will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also. Because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta. When I was in Bimha (?). So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowrungee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story. One English officer he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankima Candra. Candrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty.

Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa has black hair, too.

Prabhupāda: Why do you bring Kṛṣṇa here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Kṛṣṇa. That is very good. You remember Kṛṣṇa. When childish playing, if you remember Kṛṣṇa's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa, that is advancement.

Satsvarūpa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You remember Kṛṣṇa some way or other. Kṛṣṇa does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Yogeśvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"

Prabhupāda: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kīrtana and give them prasādam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.

Yogeśvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"

Prabhupāda: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize saìkīrtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasādam here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasādam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.

Yogeśvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money.

Prabhupāda: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then the solution is there.

Yogeśvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Kṛṣṇa, they will feel satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and they will also give. Kṛṣṇa becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.

Dhanaïjaya: Jaya. This is varṇāśrama institution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is above varṇāśrama. It is above varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varṇāśrama.

Dhanaïjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Kṛṣṇa. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.

Satsvarūpa: It is getting a little late. We should...

Prabhupāda: Which way we shall go?

Dhanaïjaya: Just up here. (break)

Satsvarūpa: ...their nuts and bolts.

Prabhupāda: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down. But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse...

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 30, 1974, Rome                                                              375174

These are the instructions of Prahlāda. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda. Now we have got books. These rascals, they have no books to read about this realization. They have got only Freud's philosophy and this... What is that? And Darwin's theory. All rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Let them read these books. This philosopher, that philosopher. What is that? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. The same philosophy, repeatedly for sense gratification, that's all. That rascal Mahesh Yogi, he also said that, "You take this special mantra; your material enjoyment will be easier." The same: the punaḥ punaś carvita. He has no other information. "It will be better." And they accepting. "Oh, my enjoyment will be better? All right, take $35. Give me that mantra." They like it because they are promising that "You will get this..." Politicians also, they are promising, "You take this ism. Your sense gratification will be easier." The same promise. This ism or that ism. This yogi, that yogi. But nobody knows what is actually happiness. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha. They are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, material body's enjoyment. Durāśayā. It is simply a hope which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Āśayā means hope and dur means very difficult. It will not be possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are being led by such rascal leaders, who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adānta-gobhiḥ. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pi. They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom. Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way--immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more, three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduḥ. Éśa-tantryāṁ baddhāḥ. Éśa-tantryām, the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little, immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty. But if you take little more salt, you cannot eat. No, you cannot eat. If you think, "Oh, so much salt? Let me put more salt, more salt," it will be useless. You can take only so much quantity. That's all. In this way you are bound up, always. And still, you are declaring freedom. What freedom? What is the meaning of this freedom? But they are fools. They cannot understand.

Haihaya: Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right quantity of salt.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is giving you everything in right way so that you can save your time, you do not waste your time, and you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. We don't say that you stop eating. You eat. Take little Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say that "Don't sleep." No, you sleep, but must rise early in the morning for maìgala-ārati. This is our philo... Eating, sleeping, and sex. No, we don't say no sex life. Yes, you have sex life. Get your bona fide wife, live peacefully. And defense also, we have. We never say that you forego all these things. No, this is not our philosophy. But similarly, as much as you absolutely require, not more than that. The balance time, save for advancement. These people are simply engaged for eating, sleeping, mating. They have no time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This condemned civilization must be stopped. Killing, killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity of getting out of this punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, repeatedly, and they are not being given the chance. They are being engaged more and more for sense gratification, viṣaya. Killing civilization. Jïāna-tapasā. Bahavo jïāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. By this process, bahavaḥ, many, by knowledge and tapasya. Pūtāḥ, purified, came back, back to home. Bahavo jïāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ, bahavo jïāna-tapasā pūtā mām... What is that, last word?

Nitāi: Mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Mad-bhāvam, "My nature." "My nature" means spiritual nature. Kṛṣṇa is spirit. Or the another nature. This is material nature. This is another nature. That is kingdom of God, spiritual nature, Vaikuṇṭha planet. Āgatāḥ: "They came." Every information is there, every opportunity is there. Simply they are not educated. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for educating these rascals. That's all. They are mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ, mad. From the morning, as soon as they rise, "Give me a cup of tea, immediately I have to go to there and there and there." What you will do then? "Yes, I will die. I will die in a motor accident. They are waiting for me." All right, go. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. All kinds of forbidden works they are doing. What? What is the purpose? Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaye. Purpose is only sense gratification. The rascal does not know that "I am doing all these sinful activities for sense gratification, and I will have to accept a very low-grade body." That he does not know. He has already got one low-grade body. He is suffering only. And he will still get another low-grade body, more suffering. That he does not know. But still, he will do everything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti na sādhu manye: "Oh, it is not good." Na sādhu manye yata ātmano' yam: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is kleśada: It is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Kleśada. This is kleśada, another body you get, kleśada. Any body you get, kleśada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be kleśada. They have constructed this building. If for few hours there is severe cold, so many people will die, even in this comfortable building. Is it not? So kleśada is there; either you remain in this way or that way, the sufferings will be there. And to take this comfort of this high building, how much kleśada, how much miserable condition, one has to pass. "Sir, I am not doing; the workers are doing." But you have to collect the money to pay them. How much miserable it is to acquire this money to pay another kleśada, laborer. So simply they are captivated by money. Otherwise it is kleśada. Sometimes they fall down and die while constructing. Is it not? Now, I have heard that in New York there are many buildings and there is no tenant. Kleśada. The proprietor of the house, he is also suffering. "I have spent so much money. No tenant." In London I have seen there is, for the last six or seven years, very big building. It is vacant.

Dhanaïjaya: Tottenham Court Road. Yes, that big one. Central Point.

Prabhupāda: Yes (laughing). His kleśada is if he keeps tenant, that is more miserable than without keeping tenant. Is it not? Yes. Therefore he keeps without. Because so much taxes will have to be paid that it will be more miserable than keeping tenants. So he is avoiding that. So while constructing, it was troublesome; now, keeping this, it is also troublesome. To find out pleasure they have manufactured so many things. But still, they cannot enjoy it. For few minutes they can enjoy; again it is nonsense. "Let us go away." (break)

 

Room Conversation (2)                                   May 31, 1974, Geneva                                                            375206

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.

C. Hennis: Well the third-class would be what kind of typical worker?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Third-class men means making provision for the society for eating. That is... It is stated, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Kṛṣi means agriculture, and go-rakṣya means cow protection, and vāṇijyam means trade. That means the third-class men, they would give protection to the cows, produce enough food grains, and if there is excess, then it can be traded. So this is the business of the third-class men.

C. Hennis: But that would cover businessmen and tradesmen and farmers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Farmers means... Nowadays especially in the western country, I see the farmer means they are raising cows for being killed. There is no cow protection.

C. Hennis: That may well be the case. That may well be the case. As it is not by any means...

Prabhupāda: I have seen. I have seen in England, I have seen in America, they simply raise the cows for being killed in future. You see? But the duty of the agriculturist, they should give very, very protection to the cows especially.

C. Hennis: This doesn't apply to bulls and bullocks and male animals generally does it?

Prabhupāda: No, bullocks also. Cow means bullock also.

C. Hennis: Oh, is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cow is feminine, bullock is the masculine, that's all.

C. Hennis: So it's the whole bovine race that's protected, and not just the cows themselves, not just the female cows?

Prabhupāda: No, both the male and female. The bullocks are used for so many other purposes. They can till the field. They can be used for transportation, so many other purposes. Or even we are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. During Kṛṣṇa's time... Kṛṣṇa was born of a very well-to-do father, but at that time the bullocks were engaged for transportation from one village to another, one village to another. Or for carrying goods. Actually the United Nations should now think how the whole human society can live peacefully for a purpose of life, not whimsically, without any purpose of life. Now, anywhere... We are preaching. We are going everywhere. If I ask any gentleman, any philosopher, any scientist , if I ask him that "What is the purpose of life?" he cannot explain. That means there is lack of intelligent class of men. Nobody knows what is the purpose of life.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

 

                                                                                                                                                                        375282

Prabhupāda: Therefore cow is specially recommended, go-rakṣya, because very important animal to the society. If those who are meat-eaters, they can eat the hogs and dogs, they can eat. The Vedic injunction is not prohibiting them. If you actually... Actually, a human being does not require to eat meat. He has got many other substitutes. But still, if he wants to eat, let him eat the less important animals. Just like dog, hog. From the social point of view it has no utility. But why killing cows? It is delivering such a nice nutritious food, milk. Not only milk. According to Vedic system, the cow is so important, even the urine, even the stool, of cow is important.

C. Hennis: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?

C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities...

Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction.

C. Hennis: You have to establish first of all a...

Prabhupāda: No, it is already there. It is already there. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Those who are interested in producing means of living, or foodstuff, in the society, say, the mercantile, the agriculturist, they should give protection to the cows. That is very essential, that milk is so important thing. If you get... Now, we have, in your western country, we have introduced such ideas in West Virginia. We have started one community project where we are keeping cows also. The cows are giving more milk than in other farm. They are so jubilant. Even up to eighty pounds milk, they are giving, because they know that "These people will not kill me." They know it. They are very happy. We don't kill their calves. In other farms, as soon as the calf is there, in front of the mother they are killed. You see? So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict.

Yogeśvara: Your point was that the people need to be taught what is sin and what is pious activities?

C. Hennis: Well, we can't be accused of engaging in sinful activities when they don't think that what they are doing is sinful.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore, if they have no knowledge what is sinful, simply by instruction, "Don't do something sinful," so what is the use? They must know. We give in the beginning, in our society, "These are are sinful activities." What is that? Meat-eating, sinful activity. And gambling, illicit sex, and intoxication. You must give it up. All these European and American boys, they were habituated to all these things from the very birth. They did not know they are sinful. But since they have come to me, I have said, "These things are sinful." They have given up. And just compare with their character, with their behavior... (break)

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etām (taranti te)

So we must know what is the law of nature, what nature wants. Nature does not want at least human being should be sinful. Then you will be punished.

C. Hennis: I think that there, in your whole philosophy, there must be a very large number of points of coincidence with the more materialist activities that we engage in. But, well, they're just trying to give people a fair share of the material things of life, proper wages, decent houses, decent opportunities for feeling and for leisure.

Yogeśvara: All that must be there, but without proper instructions simultaneously as to what is the goal of life...

C. Hennis: Yes, but I don't think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don't think that... At least, you can't expect an international organization to indoctrinate people on the national level. I'm sure that the...

Prabhupāda: No, it is not national. It should be international. Just like everyone... United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nations, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good.

 C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go...

Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance.

C. Hennis: I don't consider myself to be a leader of mankind. I am very much a servant of mankind with a view to helping people to reduce the differences between them, with a view to helping people to understand one another better. In my own particular branch in which I'm concerned we endeavor to make people understand one another in the manner of an interpreter, if you like, to show, to allow people to speak and understand with one another, and to enable them to comprehend each other's problems and understand...

Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain... I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, "No, this will be stealing," then I can refrain from it. But if I think that "It is lying here. I can take," what is that?

C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor...

Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If... You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.

C. Hennis: Yes, but there some people are better endowed with brains than others. Some people haven't got brains or not much brains.

Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain... This is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for..." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.

C. Hennis: That's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: That is my point.

C. Hennis: That's true. They're servants of the membership and the membership is the international..., of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don't have brain, then I'm afraid that the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be... We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems.

Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much...

C. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course we can't adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It's been very kind of you.

Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. I have talked so many things and you say all right.

C. Hennis: It's been very splendid, and I thank you very much indeed for giving me...

Prabhupāda: (laughing) But I am very much, I mean, strict on this point, that if the society does not know what is sinful and what is pious, it is all useless.

C. Hennis: Well, let's hope that they'll be a...

Prabhupāda: It can be a decoration. That we describe, "The decoration of the dead body." Anyone who has no brain, lost all brain, it is a dead body. So a dead body you can decorate to your full satisfaction, but what is the use of decorating a dead body?

C. Hennis: Well, thank you very much again. It's very kind of you.

Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Please sit down for a moment.

C. Hennis: I have to go because I have a...

Yogeśvara: If you can wait just two minutes. One tradition is that we always offer our guests prasādam, foodstuffs that we prepared.

C. Hennis: Thank you very much. But I have to go very shortly. I have to...

Yogeśvara: Well perhaps I should give him downstairs.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Give him.

C. Hennis: May I, may I? Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Mr. Hennis goes out)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It's true what you say Prabhupāda. They come and they put forward their idea and if you don't like it, well, "Oh!" but if you like, "Oh, very good man." They have their own ideas.

Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big..., but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.

Yogeśvara: He admitted it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk--mother. And bull is producing food--he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse especially for the cows and bulls. Why don't you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they...

Yogeśvara: His point was that they can... He was thinking that man has the capacity for resolving his own problems. Simply we have to come together and organize.

Prabhupāda: That is United Organization. Why do they not think all these things?

Yogeśvara: There is no direction.

Prabhupāda: No direction. There is no brain. Therefore for the last, why last? Twenty years? Before that, in our younger days, the League of Nation, that was formulated in 1918, '19. So they are trying to unite the whole nation under different names from '18, apart from other year. So for the more than fifty-five, sixty years, they are all good brains of the nation. What they have done? That means they have no brain. The problems are increasing. Instead of decreasing the problems, they are increasing.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You used the example that in the United States...

Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That's all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.                                                                                                                                     

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I remember on a walk in Vṛndāvana, Your Divine Grace said that there should be no politics in our society because a Vaiṣṇava means one who wants to help others become happy.

Prabhupāda: Now politics is coming in. As soon as we are getting money, the politics coming. That is a great concern.

Yogeśvara: What will happen to our temples in the cities? Will we keep them?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: Our temples. These big, big temples we have now.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to go everywhere. Wherever there is opportunity to instruct about this spiritual subject matter, we must go there. We should not have such discrimination, that city should be neglected. No. Why? They are also human being. They are misled. So we have to give them a little instruction. Everywhere. In cities there is possibility. Whatever we have collected, our men, that is from city, not from the village. So why should we neglect city? Where is the question? [break] All hobgoblin, the last word which I said, “dressing the dead body, decorating the dead body.” The society has no brain; that means dead body. When a man’s brain is gone, he is dead body, maybe he is living. He has no use. Just like a madman. He has got life, but what is the use of that life? It is already dead. Because his brain is deranged. Is it not? So if the brain is lost, brain is deranged, therefore it is dead body. That is the distinction between living body and dead body. A living man has got brain. He can work with his brain. And the dead bod... The body is there. Why call it dead? Because brain is not working. Brain is dead. That is the difference. Although the hand is there. The dead man has also hand. The leg is there. The dead man has also leg. But why the hand is leg? Because the brain is dead.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. When they actually see that “These men are dedicated to God,” then they’ll do whatever you wish.

Yogesvara: They are making better organizations, but they are not giving any example to the people.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is concocting some ideas, and they are going on as different organization. That's all. No standard idea. The standard idea is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that cows should be given protection, go-rakṣya. Who is following this? Everyone is making plan how to kill cows in a more scientific way. This is going on. Who is taking the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Nobody is taking. Even in India where Bhagavad-gītā is originally, these rascals also not taking. And they have become so brainless. Therefore the whole human society is a dead society. And the dead society's dressing, decorating, is useless waste of time. That's all. Their education, their advancement... He has no brain. What is the use of education? That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇòita, that snake is a snake. Do you think a snake decorated with a jewel on the hood is gentleman? Similarly, a man without brain, so-called education, is just like a jewel on the head of a serpent. Kim asau na bhayaìkara. Cāṇakya Paṇòita asks "Whether a snake with jewel on the head is not fearful? He is as much fearful as the other snake without the jewel." Similarly, if a human being has no brain, with his so-called education or no education, it is as good. The education has no value. He does not know what is good work, what is bad work, what is my aim of life, what is this body, what is the soul? If these things he does not know, then what is the value of his education? So the man is not satisfied?

Guru Gaurāìga: He was in a hurry to get out.

Yogeśvara: Oh, yes. He asked me to excuse him to you. He had a meeting to go to.

Prabhupāda: I would say  "If he has no brain, what is the use of going to a meeting?" (laughter) Our only... Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The men are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. What they will do? Meeting of the dogs, hogs, camels and asses will be any beneficial to the society? We are very pessimistic, and our conclusion, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is dogs, hogs, camels, asses, that's all. No brain, animal. Animal has got brain: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life. So these people, they have got brain for that purposes only. That is animal life. Actually, they do not know what is the aim of life, why people should be educated, why human society should be organized. They do not know. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Enamored by these big, big buildings. That's all. "Oh, they are so advanced." And naturally, the common man comes to the European or American city, he says, "Oh, Americans are very rich." "Rich" means they have piled up stones and bricks, that's all. This is their richness. What is there in the richness here? But people are common men. They think that this piling of bricks and stone is like real civilization. What do you think? Is that real civilization?

Yogeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Piling of bricks and stones? Heaps of stones and bricks? That is emblem of civilization? They have seen. In Rome they have seen. They also piled like that. Now they have gone. Where they have gone? Why they left? Why they were obliged to leave? That nobody is questioning. And if he has got a different body, if he is living in that house as cats and dogs and rats and ants, then what benefit he has derived? There is possibility. If you have got an attraction for the body, for your house, but you are not going to get a human body, then you'll have to take your birth in that place, as tree, as plant, as live as rat or cat or ant. You have to live. Nature will give you advantage. But you must get the body according to your karma. That you cannot violate. Where is this science discussed? As soon as we shall speak gentleman like them, they will say, "I have got meeting."

Yogeśvara: Yes, "I must leave."

Prabhupāda: Ah, "I must leave." When we come to real proposition, immediately they want to leave. This is their brain.

Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid.

Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. "Why Christians are killing?" Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That's all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian? Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show-bottles, that's all..There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically... Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming  Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in... I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that?

Yogeśvara: Juice.

Prabhupāda: I have got it. You can distribute it.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, they have the philosophy that, generally when we ask them, that "God created the world for us to enjoy." That is what the Christian generally says, that "The world is made for us to enjoy."

Prabhupāda: But enjoy does not mean that you enjoy sinfully. Did God give that document, that "You enjoy as you like, sinfully." Enjoy. There is prescription. You enjoy to the prescription. God says, tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. You simply enjoy what is allotted to you. Don't encroach upon other's property. This is God's injunction. You enjoy. As human being, you enjoy life. You have got food grains, fruits, flowers, milk. Enjoy life. Offer to Kṛṣṇa. Enjoy life. Why should you kill animal? That is God's... Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā. He says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. Why do you go to kill animals? That is not enjoyment. That means you suffer, therefore you are suffering. You are creating suffering. So this man is at least informed that they have no brain.

Yogeśvara: Maybe he will tell them at his meeting.

Prabhupāda: (laughter) But he could not defend that he has got brain, yes. So however these men may declare very, very big, we know that "You have no brain. You are as good as animal." Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: "These classes of men are no better than the dogs, hogs, camels and asses." Bhāgavata school will not approve of these rascals as human being. They are so strict. If one is not on the platform of God consciousness, he is not human being. He is animal. That's a fact. But we should not hate the animals because our mission is to bring them to the human consciousness. You cannot expect that your audience should be all highly brain. No. Preaching is required because they have no brain. Therefore your duty is to tolerate all difficulties and bring them to the sense of brain. Not that "These people are animals; we shall not mix with them." Then you have no missionary activities. Then you sit down in a place and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then don't open centers. That is also dangerous. If we imitate Haridāsa Öhākura, "Let us all chant and do nothing," then the māyā, the women, they are very expert. They could not conquer over Haridāsa Öhākura, but she'll conquer upon you. And become victim. Therefore we have to be active. We cannot imitate Haridāsa. Anyone who has imitated the Haridāsa Öhākura, he has fallen down. He has fallen. He must fall down because imitating the highest personality, for which he is not fit. Therefore he's going to fall down. When by preaching, by chanting, we will be expert, then it is possible. So whether Bhagavān is coming or not?

Guru Gaurāìga: He missed his airplane.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Missed his airplane?

Guru Gaurāìga: Now he is supposed to come very, very soon, in about a half an hour. I think there will be many people this evening. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                 June 2, 1974, Geneva                                                              375514

Yogeśvara: ...the book glorifying the Russian ideals, he is thrown out of the country.

Prabhupāda: Just see. It is a country... People are not bad. I have seen. They are very nice. The government, the rascals, a few men, who are controlling the government, they are all rogues and thieves. The same thing in India. Everywhere mass population, they are innocent. These rascals made them..., misleading. In Russia I have seen. The mass people, they are very nice. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. They are innocent. In India also. The Pakistan happened due to these politicians. The Hindus, Muslims, they are innocent. They don't fight. These politicians engaged them to fight artificially for their political ambition. The wars also declared nowadays, on account of the rascal politicians. The people do not want it. (break) ...to the Indian railway strike, have you got any news?

Bhagavān: It ceased the other day.

Karandhara: They made some agreement with the union.

Prabhupāda: Government made agreement.

Karandhara: Yeah, they made some compromise with the union.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It seems that the government had arrested all of the union leaders, and this paralyzed the worker's appeal. So the workers finally agreed to go back. They put many thousands of union leaders into jail.

Prabhupāda: It was right. (break)

Yogeśvara: ...did in such a way that crops can be grown anywhere? Can crops be grown anywhere in the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If it does not grow, then what is nature's arrangement?

Yogeśvara: Well, for example, there are some parts in India that are too dry to cultivate the ground.

Prabhupāda: Dry means there is no rain. If natures like, there can be profuse rain. That is nature's arrangement. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyāt. You must have sufficient rain. And for having sufficient rain, you must execute yajïa. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. So these people are now becoming rascals. They are not performing yajïas. They are opening slaughterhouse. How there will be rain? Instead of performing yajïas, they are opening big, big slaughterhouse.

Bhagavān: I think now in many parts of the world the desert is increasing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, desert will increase.

Yogeśvara: So under the present conditions, it's necessary to transport food. At least, for the time being, we don't have the possibility of growing food anywhere and everywhere. So some transportation of food is required.

Prabhupāda: Where you get for transportation if there is no grain? If you say there is no hope of producing food grain, then where is the chance of transportation?

Yogeśvara: Well, in some areas there is.

Prabhupāda: In somewhere. If somewhere it is produced, then other place also it can be produced. You perform yajïa, saìkīrtana-yajïa. You will get enough food. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, annād bhavanti bhutānī. So in Switzerland there are many slaughterhouses also? Many?

Guru Gaurāìga: Some time ago I read in the papers that they had so much milk and so much butter that the government proposal was kill the cows.

Prabhupāda: Kill all the animals. Oh, just see. They will not give to others.

Bhagavān: The farmers were complaining that their prices weren't competitive cause there was so much milk.

Prabhupāda: The price is the standard, not that goods are required. They want money for purchasing wine. This is the difficulty. They are not satisfied simply by eating sufficient. They want money for woman and wine. This is their philosophy.

Bhagavān: In the United States that same problem was there, that the prices were all going up. Everything was having inflation.

Prabhupāda: So if they had sense, they should have exported where there is necessity of this milk, butter, grain. Then the world will be happy.

Yogeśvara: That was my question. If there is necessity for exporting, then there is necessity for maintaining ships and trains and means of communication, employing workers, electrical dynamos for running...

Prabhupāda: No, point is if in one place you can produce food grains, butter and milk, why not other place? That is my point. The land is everywhere the same. If one place... Now here, in Europe and America, there is enough production because the population is less. So the whole America is bigger than India, at least four times. And the population is not even half. What is the population whole America?

Bhagavān: 200,000,000.

Prabhupāda: And India?

Bhagavān: About 600,000,000.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And the land is four times more than India, at least. Therefore you find excess. You see? Otherwise, India is also producing. No, India is not producing. It is not utilizing all the land.

Guru Gaurāìga: If the people here are so sinful, how is it that they have so many nice facilities? It will go away soon, very soon.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. As they increase their sinful activities, these facilities will be taken away. Therefore we propose that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Just cooperate in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the whole world will be happy. This is our proposal. Why do you think it is American, it is Swiss, it is Indian? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Let us become obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and because we are sons of Kṛṣṇa, let us enjoy the property of Kṛṣṇa. Immediately there will be happiness. I have several times said that the, still the whole world can produce so much grains and foodstuff, ten times of the population can be fed, ten times. In Africa, in Australia, and even in America, so much, I means, prospect of producing food. But they will not cooperate. They will kill the animal. They will throw the grain to the sea, and claim, "It is my land. It is my property."

Bhagavān: Then they complain about scarcity.

Prabhupāda: For money. So rascal civilization is going on. Therefore I challenged that man, "Where is your brain?" There is no brain. You remember that?

Yogeśvara: From the International Labor Organization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no brain.

Karandhara: Prabhupāda, in a recent study by U.S. Agricultural officials, they found that it is really uneconomical to eat meat. It takes so much energy and man hours to raise and transport and slaughter the cows that it makes it very wasteful.

Prabhupāda: Wasteful, yes. Therefore I say they have no brain. All, they are rascals. Rascal leaders. A little labor in agriculture will be sufficient to produce the family's food stock for the whole year. You can stock. You work only three months, and you get sufficient food for your whole family. And less nine months, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals will not do that. They will work hard like ass simply for eating. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. They will not accept easy life.

Guru Gaurāìga: In that agricultural report it said that if they were to eat all the grains that they give to the cows and animals, they could get twenty times more calories than by eating meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrong civilization, rascal civilization. And this is due to this rascaldom, nationalism, "This is my land." And at any moment he will be kicked out. Still, he claims, "It is my land." Ahaṁ mameti janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti. This is the illusion. Nothing belongs to him; still he is fighting, "This is mine. This is mine." "I" and "mine." Identifying himself with this body, "I", and wrongly conceiving that "This is mine." This is the basic principle of wrong civilization. Both things are... Nothing belongs to him. Suppose I have come here in Switzerland. If I remain here for one month and I claim, "Oh, this is mine," what is this? So similarly, I come as guest. Everyone comes as guest in the womb of his mother and lives here for fifty years. He is claiming, "It is mine." When, when, when it became yours? The land was long, long time before your birth. How it became yours? But they have no sense. "It is mine." "Fight." "My land, my nation, my family, my society." In this way, wasting time. These things have been introduced by these western mlecchas. In the Vedic civilization there is no such thing as nationalism. You won't find. Have you seen in the Bhagavad-gītā any word, "nationalism?" No such thing. This is the original ideas of the tribes. In the jungle there is... Just like in Africa there are still groups of tribes. This is most crude idea of civilization, nationalism. This is tribalized. It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all.

Bhagavān: They are actually just cannibals because they maintain themselves on eating the cow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: They think it's so horrible to eat another person, but...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people.. How nature will tolerate? Now India has learned, imitated the western countries. Now there is war between India and Pakistan Otherwise there was no such thing. During two wars between the Pakistan and Hindustan, unnecessarily, without any profit, millions of people were killed.

Karandhara: Just recently India exploded an atomic bomb, and now Pakistan is hurrying to get an atomic bomb also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on.

Guru Gaurāìga: The government promised it would be only for peaceful purposes.

Prabhupāda: No, what do they know about peaceful conditions. They are all rascals. They do not know what is peaceful condition. Actually peaceful condition is described in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jïātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

This is peace. Unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, where is the peacefulness? There cannot be. All rascaldom. Mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. These rascals and fools, māyayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ, lost of all knowledge--how there can be peace? It is all useless.

                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        375571

Prabhupāda: With gun or without, gun, you will die. The fascist will die and the other party also will die. Gun or without gun, he cannot exist. But our fight is to stop death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Our fight is for this purpose, no more death. This is real fight. Your, what is your fight? You may save yourself for two years or three years or ten years, but you have to die. You have no such program not to die. But here is a program, no more death.

Yogeśvara: They have one program. They are freezing bodies.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is another nonsense.

Yogeśvara: Then they will defrost them in fifty or one hundred years.

Prabhupāda: All future programs.

Nitāi: They have never done that, have they?

Yogeśvara: Well, there are people in the refrigerator now. There are people who have voluntarily put themselves in a big block of ice. They were told before they went inside that they would be defrosted in about fifty years.

Prabhupāda: Then what he will do? (laughing)

Bhagavān: They should take a few out now and see if it worked.

Prabhupāda: No, that can be done. The yogic process. It is called kumbhaka. Samādhi. You stop your breathing, and you can keep yourself for thousands of years. That is the kumbhaka. But this art is known by the frogs also.

Yogeśvara: By the frogs?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Automatically... There was news that in the coal mine all of a sudden a frog came out and it was estimated that... Because the coal is formed by the ruins. So when there was ruins, at least ten thousand years ago, during the ruins, the frog was encaged. And it formed coal. Still he was living. That means he lived at least for ten thousand years. So Brahmā lives for ten millions of years. So what is the... They are also condemned. Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartinaḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, "What is the use of going to Brahma-loka. Even if you live for millions of years, you will have to die." Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama: "But if you come to Me, you will never have to die." Our struggle is for that purpose. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. for these things, those who are trying, they are less intelligent.

Bhagavān: (about passerby) He's got one arm, and he's running to keep healthy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) In the morning they begin fishing, this walking, and golfing, no engagement. These poor fellows, they have been not informed that there is better engagement. They do not know. This is their civilization. And here, Kṛṣṇa conscious young men, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. They appreciate the Kṛṣṇa conscious boys. "Bright faces," they say. The priests and the common gentlemen, they say, and they inquire, "Are you American?" They see it. Come and see in our Los Angeles temple, in every temple, how these younger boys and girls are sitting so peacefully, look so nice. Is it not? A year ago, all hellish. Hellish. The same boys, the same girls. That's a fact. Just the counterpart of our society is the hippies--frustrated, all disappointed, mad. They should come forward now to cooperate with this movement. The other day one somebody came to solve the problems of the hippies.

Yogeśvara: Oh, in Rome? Desmond O'Grady?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we suggested chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he left.

Yogeśvara: The social worker.

Prabhupāda: Yes,

Yogeśvara: With the long hair.

Prabhupāda: Ah ha. So, he did not like the idea?

Yogeśvara: He didn't think it was very practical.

Guru Gaurāìga: He thinks it works but not all the time. He thinks it works for some people, but not for all people.

Prabhupāda: And all people... Any good thing, it is meant for some people, not for all people. But if there is an ideal class of men, the others will follow. Jewel. Jewel is always costly. Still everyone aspires, "If I get a jewel." That is wanted. Not that everybody can possess jewel, but still, everybody will appreciate jewel.

 

Morning Walk                                                 June 5, 1974, Geneva                                                              375981

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by māyā, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that "I must be conditioned. That is my life." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Condition. Still conditioned, but daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahātmā. Mahātmā is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. You condition here. "You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy." Those who are thinking that "We shall not be conditioned," they are still in māyā. You cannot be without condition.

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām

eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān

So that one God is supplying the necessities of life. That is His condition. Suppose you are giving me all necessities of life. Then it is, the best part of my valor is to live under your control. That's all. I cannot be independent. It is not possible. That is the wrong philosophy, that these rascals are thinking of complete independence. That means they are becoming more and more conditioned by this material external energy.

Yogeśvara: Their program is that if a child's problems come from the wrong kind of conditioning, then he should be given the opportunity in childhood of a good family, good education, and so on, and that way there won't be bad reaction later on in life.

Prabhupāda: That means he should be given chance for better conditioning. Conditioning must go on. It cannot be said that "Let the child be given freedom." No.

Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's what they say. They say it's freedom when there is a lack of bad conditioning.

Prabhupāda: That is... Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom--you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free.

Yogeśvara: So in other words, they would say your idea is to give them a better conditioning.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not better conditioning. You must know what is the best condition and take that condition. The best condition is to be under the control of Kṛṣṇa. That is your best first-class way.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You said that in the Bhagavad-gītā when it speaks of being desireless, it means that actually one is desiring for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: "I don't want this." "Don't want, don't want, don't want" does not mean he becomes negative. "I want Kṛṣṇa. So many things, 'Don't want,' but actually I want Kṛṣṇa. And that is my life." And not that "Don't want, don't want, don't want, then become zero." Not that.

Yogeśvara: No, they also say we know what we want. We want food for everyone, we want...

Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know. Therefore he is changing from this place to that place. He does not know. If he had known, then he would have surrendered immediately to Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. He does not know.

Yogeśvara: But the idea is "We can accomplish the same good results even without Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; again he'll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he's taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhaḥ. Down, just like, what is that? Merry-go-round.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Ferris wheel, ferris wheel goes up and down.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes "I am so up," and again come down. This is going on. Ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān. Therefore, in this way, going round, one who is very, very fortunate, he, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja, he comes to the devotional life by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. They are under the myth, under the spell of māyā. This is going on.

Yogeśvara: Well, they say "You are distributing food, and we are also distributing food. You are opening schools, and we are also opening schools."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma. Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kacid upāsanā vrajavadhu-vargena ya kalpita (?): "Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopīs." What is their conception? Prostitution, that's all. Simple prostitute. Kṛṣṇa was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopīs. And these rascals are taking that "This is very good. Kṛṣṇa also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda, Therefore Vyāsadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand what is the gopīs' behavior with Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyās. Jump over Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs. And that is Bhāgavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: If the Māyāvādī accepts the principle that bhakti is good, but at the end he throws it away, will he have a change of heart?

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda. They have no conception of the eternity of bhakti. That is Māyāvāda.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Will the change in heart come about for such persons because they're somehow associated with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa associated with Kṛṣṇa always, their position is like that. That is not bhakti. Bhakti is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam, favorable, not to reject Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, and think of Kṛṣṇa, "How to kill Him? How to kill Him? How to kill Him?" That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that is not favorable. Therefore it is not bhakti. But they get the salvation because they have some way or other thought of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonal salvation. They are not allowed to enter into the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: In the beginning of devotional service, the concentration is on the service more than on Kṛṣṇa the person.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: But then gradually, as we serve and serve and concentrate on the service, then there's realization.

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization comes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Of who we're serving.

Prabhupāda: The disciple serves Kṛṣṇa under the direction of spiritual master. Vidhi-mārga, regulative principles. Vidhi-mārga, rāga-mārga. (break) ...gunarna jata nat krta mukha santi (?). So, I think it is mud.

Satsvarūpa: Here it's getting more and more moist, dew. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...friend, but what is my business? My business is to serve the senses, that's all. Kāmādīnām, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya, mada, the six kinds of sense gratification I am doing. This is actual... Just like this man, he is thinking he is very big man, but he's servant of his dog. Is it not? But he is thinking that he is very big man. He does not think that "What is my business? To serve this dog in the morning." He has no sense. Because he has no prescribed duty to serve Kṛṣṇa... He must serve, and therefore he must serve dog. That is his position. But still, he's thinking, "Why these foolish people are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am serving the dog. I am very big man." He has become very big man by serving the dog, and we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. We...

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...even though it is covered by smoke.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That verse.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That even though one's activities in the material world are covered by faults, still one should perform his activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In India there is a Hindi proverb, bekase begar achar (?)... (end)

Room Conversation(2)                                    Geneva, June 5, 1974                                                              376091                          

Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body--the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā.

                                                                                                                                                                        

376169

Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad-gītā. When there is aggression you have the right to kill but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful.                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                        376221

Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances, but if you do not know how to... Suppose a man is diseased and you think... The doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that "Let me give me some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know--I help in the opposite way--that is not helping. That is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not... Helping means, real helping is, that a man or anyone... Everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger, there's a danger in what he calls "spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually...

Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he... That is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego, that "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good.

Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people..., that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do?

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says, "Probably not very much." He said, "But maybe we can do something."

Prabhupāda: Then this is simply a false pride, that "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service, that "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact?

Guru Gaurāìga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: You want to translate that?

Guru Gaurāìga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons."

Prabhupāda: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also; they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If... The Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free...

Prabhupāda: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not..."? They are all false thing? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Read it.

Yogeśvara:

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

(translates)

Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. Read the purport.

Yogeśvara: (reads purport in French)

Prabhupāda: So far I have studied... I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this--produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land..." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff. There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia, and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food?

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says all of these things, they are known. They know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this...

Prabhupāda: And therefore knowledge is required.

Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice.

Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. That is not love. I love you and kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means... You see the description of love is there, paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all.

M. Roche-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, we think, love.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others.

M. Roche-dieu: No, no.

Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons.

 

Morning Walk                                                  June 6, 1974, Geneva                                                             376934

Prabhupāda: ...only barrier. The meat-eaters cannot understand.

Satsvarūpa: He said, "Let us go on to higher topics. We've just been talking so long about meat-eating."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: You said: "Well, if you're sinful, there's no question of going on to a higher topic."

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is specially mentioned in the Bhāgavata: vinā paśughnāt.

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt

pumān virajyeta vinā paśughnāt

Everyone can understand the truth except the rascals who are meat-eaters. Vinā paśughnāt. Paśughnāt. Paśu means animals, and ghna means killer. Christ therefore first says, "You shall not kill." These rascals are killers from the very beginning, and they're continuing. Vinā paśughnāt. Those who are paśughna, they cannot understand. They're thinking, "We are doing very good work, philanthropic work, opening hospitals and public roads, and every ten years, we are fighting and killing all the men population." They're happy. They are taking credit for these big, big buildings, but this is duṣkṛtina because simply these buildings are meant for committing sinful activities. That's all. "Wine, women, meat-eating, gambling. We are civilized." (break) ...this Geneva very many churches.

Guru Gaurāìga: Many churches in Geneva? No.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guru Gaurāìga: Not so many.

Prabhupāda: That means godless. Eh?

Guru Gaurāìga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When I first came to America, Butler, in Pennsylvania, that is small county, but at least one dozen churches I found. I very much appreciated, that the people are not... And they're going regularly, churches. I was invited in many churches. I was...

Yogeśvara: To lecture?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The, the girl, that, my friend's son's wife... He's Indian. He has married an English girl. So I was guest at his house. So that girl, Sally... Selly or Sally?

Yogeśvara: Sally.

Prabhupāda: She was arranging so many meetings. She was very intelligent girl. So churches, many churches, she... Some of the churches purchased my books.

Yogeśvara: Recently, one of our saìkīrtana parties went to Butler, Pennsylvania, and one of the devotees met a priest on the street. He said: "Oh, yes, I remember your spiritual master. He was here."

Prabhupāda: So I was giving lectures. They have churches. That means God conscious persons there. I never criticized church, mosque, never. Because whatever it may be, at least there is God consciousness. So they're good. In details... But when they disobey... I criticize only these rascals, disobey the commandments. Otherwise, we have no... We don't criticize.

Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian.

Prabhupāda: Why? God is one. Why we shall be sectarian? According to his circumstances, he is doing. And that prayer is also bhakti, offering prayer. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanaṁ vandanam. This vandana is prayer. So that is bhakti, one of the items of bhakti.

Yogeśvara: Everyone needs to be encouraged.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: Everyone needs to be encouraged in their God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. Bhaktiś cen nava-lakṣaṇā. Bhakti is demonstrated in nine different symptoms. So vandanam, offering prayers, that is bhakti.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it required for them to have a spiritual master to guide them?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. These rascals, the priest, they do not guide them. They are also fallen. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice. If they follow. So many times they asked me. "Yes, if you follow your Christian religion, you'll be perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu proved devotional service from Koran. Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The Khān Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So it requires the devotee who can explain from any godly literature about God. How rascal they are! "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore we shall maintain big, big slaughterhouse." Just see the argument. Then, in the Bengali, mosa makta kanan (?). There was a mosquito, and one is asking, "Bring a cannon." "Bring a cannon." Mosa makta kanan. Jesus Christ ate somewhere. There was no food available to eat, might have. Accepting he ate, but that, does it mean that you have to maintain slaughterhouse? Just see. And besides that, he might have done anything. He's powerful. He can eat. Therefore the other day I said, "He can eat the whole world." But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. That is Christianity.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Many of the young people now, they look to the Bible for instruction, but they don't like to go to church at all. They feel that the church is hypocritical.

Prabhupāda: Hypocritical, simply hypocritical. All these priests and cardinals and popes, they're all hypocritical. Getting high, highly salaried, high salaries, and drinking wine. And in America there is a hospital, five thousand drunkard priests are admitted there to cure their drinking habit. That was published in a paper. And they're sanctioning man to man marriage. That was published in that, what is that? Watch?

Satsvarūpa: Watchtower?

Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes.

Guru Gaurāìga: They did a survey among the Catholic priests...

Prabhupāda: What is this? They do not fight. Why there is soldier? (laughter) What nonsense. Why there are soldiers? The neutral? 1939. This is Second World War. And First World War, 19...

Yogeśvara: (reading) "Dedicated to the soldiers of Geneva who died in the service of their country."

Prabhupāda: So that means it was attacked?

Guru Gaurāìga: Probably defending banks or things like that. Civil.

Prabhupāda: Two wars, 1914 to 1918.

Swiss Devotee: They have big military poems. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Swiss Devotee: Many, many.

Guru Gaurāìga: We read in the papers, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they did a survey among the Capucine priests and fifty percent felt that their spiritual life was hampered by the fact that they could not have intimate relations with women. And forty percent felt that they were not allowed enough freedom and that obedience was not good.

Prabhupāda: Not allowed in...?

Guru Gaurāìga: Enough freedom.

Prabhupāda: What is that freedom?

Yogeśvara: Illicit principles. Sinful principles.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...fig, there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains a tree like that. And there are thousands of fruits, figs. Where is that chemist who can prepare such figs? One, in Delhi, when our festival was going on, we invited a big chemist. He admitted that "Our chemical advance, scientific advancement is like this." He explained very nicely. You were present?

Yogeśvara: Where?

Prabhupāda: In Delhi? He said that a man who has learned the art to, what is called, barking like dog, and people will go to see, purchasing ticket, ten rupees, twenty rupees, how the man is barking like a dog. And there are so many dogs barking. They won't see. This is our advancement. If a man has artificially learned how to bark, they'll go to see by paying fees. And the natural barking, they don't care. So these rascals are like that. They're trying to manufacture life. And so many life is coming by nature's process, millions and millions, that is no credit. And he's trying, utopian, he'll create life by chemical combination, he's given all credit, Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a man." This is rascaldom. So what credit you'll get. Suppose if you can manufacture a man or an animal in the laboratory, where is your credit? There are many millions and millions are coming automatically. We are trying to give credit to Kṛṣṇa who is making all this creation.

 

337038

Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded. It is nature's law.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one person asked the other day that "You say that we have a choice, that either we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or we can remain under the control of the external energy."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And his question was that those in the mode of passion and ignorance, do they have any choice?

Prabhupāda: Everyone has choice. Everyone has choice. Choice, but under the control. Exactly like that. By your choice, you go to the prison house. By your choice, you go to the university. There is supreme control, government. But it is your choice, whether you want to live in the prison or in the university. that is your choice. Government does not say that "Oh, this man will come to the university, and this man will go to the prison house." No. You make your choice, you work according to that, and government sends you either to the prison or to the university. You cannot say... One man is condemned to be killed for murdering, another man is rewarded some prize, you cannot say government is partial. You have made your choice, and government is giving you the result. (pause) Once you make your choice to steal, then you are under prison house. Immediately.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Choice to...?

Prabhupāda: To steal.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Steal.

Prabhupāda: Then immediately you are under prison. It will take some time only. Just like if you infect some disease, It will take some time to manifest, but it will be manifested. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ. So in the, in the... Ordinarily, you can steal and hide yourself, but in the eyes of God, you cannot steal and hide yourself. That is not possible. You have stolen; you must suffer.

 

Morning Walk                                                   June 8, 1974, Geneva                                                            377053

Prabhupāda: Ignorances. They have opined, they have given the opinion that children born between the ages of twenty years and thirty-six years, they are healthy. But we have got experience that children born even at..., in India, twelve, thirteen years, they were healthy.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They were what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Satsvarūpa: The parents were twelve or thirteen. The children were healthy. But this magazine said that children are healthy if the parents are from twenty-one to thirty-six.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhāgavatam, you said that by the age of sixteen, a girl should be married, or twenty-four for a man. We were just reading that...

Prabhupāda: That is the maximum.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: We were just reading that.

Prabhupāda: The point is that supposing this twenty to thirty-six years is nice age... For women. But before twenty years, she is sacked, and her health is broken. What she'll produce, children? Because this is... The girls, from twelve, thirteen years, nowadays, they begin sex.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That's true.

Prabhupāda: Is it not?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That's true.

Prabhupāda: So before she reaches twenty years, twenty times she must have taken contraceptive method. And that means her health is ruined. What she'll produce? They are given in the schools, colleges, contraceptive tablets. And they are prohibiting, "Don't get child before twenty years." What is this nonsense? This is the difficulty. All rascals, they have taken leadership. Women should, should be allowed to beget children as soon as they're able. But as soon as the pregnancy is there, there should not be any sex life. They have got sex life in pregnancy also. So many things, we have... We can guide them all, all these rascals. From śāstra, we can guide them. Therefore immediately human society, a class of men who are fully conversant with the Vedic conclusion required to guide these rascals, socially, politically, in every respect.

Guru Gaurāìga: They say that they have made studies, Śrīla Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru Gaurāìga: They have made studies and that if a woman gives birth at the age less than twenty there are more chances that she die according to their statistics.

Prabhupāda: Their statistics in the western world... Inductive knowledge is always imperfect. They have not seen in India. My wife gave birth at the age of fourteen years. She is still living. She is ten years younger than me. So sixty-eight, sixty-nine, she is. She gave birth child at the age of fourteen. In 1918 I was married, and 1921 she gave birth the child, my first son. And she was never unhealthy; neither she had to go to the hospital for maternity hell. Natural delivery of child. Hare Kṛṣṇa. This illicit sex, even with wife... If sex life is indulged after the period of menstruation, that is also illicit sex. There are so many rules and regulations about sex life in Vedic culture. That is real use of sex life. In the Bhagavad-gītā, sex life, He says that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. "Sex life which is under regulative principle of the Vedic knowledge," Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that sex life. I am that sex life." And beyond that, that is illicit sex life. And yesterday I was reading that dharma... When there is irreligious sex, then it increases varṇa-saìkara, unwanted population. So the modern civilization, they're letting loose the women for prostitution, and they want nice children. That is not possible. Why this park is kept like this?

Guru Gaurāìga: It's more of a forest, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru Gaurāìga: But this is surprising. Generally, they cut.

Nitāi: In Los Angeles, you were saying about the system of monogamy, how in this way most of the women are left unmarried.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is prostitution. If a man... First of all, the problem is... That they do not know, that they should produce sufficient food grains. These, all these contraceptive methods, this and that, monogamy, they are trying for checking population. Is it not?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The basic principle is to check population. Now, if they follow the Vedic principles, automatically the population is checked. Just like brahmacārī. So if the, both the boys and girls remain brahmacārī, then where is the unwanted population? Where is the question of this contraceptive method?

Nitāi: No need.

Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only."

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Even big scientists and politicians, same thing.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. It is a civilization of rascals. That's all. That duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina means they have got merit. As human being, everyone has got merit. That is used for sinful activities. That's all. Duṣkṛtina. Therefore they are godless. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ. All these sinful men, rascals, they don't care for God. They don't care for next life. This is the position. They don't believe in these things. If they believe in these things, they'll have to be systematized. They don't want that. The life is, what is called, extravagancy? No? Now it is a... Systematically they are following. The karmīs, they work hard, whole week, and the end of the weekend, they call any beautiful woman, pay her something, don't take responsibility of family life. This has become a system. Is it not?

Guru Gaurāìga: This is why the women wish to have the same rights as the men because they're not being taken care of at home.

Prabhupāda: Animal life. (pause) What are these trees? Oak tree? No.

Nitāi: Yeah, oaks.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: Some of them are oaks. (pause)

Prabhupāda: We can get out from this?

Guru Gaurāìga: Yes. (break)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...Vedic culture, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there was illicit sex going on?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: In Vedic culture, what would King Parīkṣit do?

Prabhupāda: We don't find any illicit sex. They were having more than one wife. So there was no question of illicit sex. If one wife is pregnant, then the man, he goes to another wife. Man has got that tendency. So as soon as she is pregnant, she is kept separate. Even we have seen. When the girl is pregnant, she goes to her mother's care, does not live with the husband. What is that?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Off in the distance.

Prabhupāda: A girl is pregnant, suppose, then, during her pregnancy period, ten months, there is no sex, and unless the child becomes six months old, there is no sex. The thing is that in the modern world, sex life has become the only pleasure. They do not know anything else. Therefore everything is discredited. And another thing is they are afraid of keeping more than one wife for population. But if they produce sufficient food, where is the question of overpopulation? Another thing they have made, especially in the western world, they don't want to produce food because they know, "We shall kill one animal and eat. Why take so much trouble? Let me increase industry, and I shall push my button. Money will come. And the slaughterhouse there. We shall eat." So they are getting money. By money, they are getting women to the choice. They are getting food, meat, and they're enjoying drinking. So money has become the whole thing. "Bring money some way or other and enjoy." This is the purport of civilization. They do not care what is God, that human body is meant for God realization. They have no such ideas. "There is nothing after death. So so long I am living, let me enjoy by the tongue, by the genital and by the belly. Use the tongue for eating anything which is palatable, which I like. Never mind what it is. And then genital also. Bring as many women..." This is civilization, modern. There is no question of sinful life or pious life, next life. (laughs) Another, their theory is that only on this planet there is living entities... (break) If there is sufficient rain in the desert, it will be also hot. (break) ...tells us in the śāstras how to live comfortably and advance in spiritual life. And they should give advice to others. That is the business of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. This is the description of the Gosvāmīs. They are well versed in all different types of Vedic scriptures just to establish a peaceful society sad-dharma, very nice gentleman, peaceful society. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau, for the benefit of the whole human society. Therefore they are honored all over the world. This is gosvāmī business, not to exploit (indistinct) live like irresponsible man, eat, drink, be merry and enjoy.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, their philosophy is that this is all there is, this life. After death, it's finished. And so they're trying to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So if they have information that this is not the only life, then won't they automatically become more austere?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) consider what kind of life I'm going to get. (indistinct) They have made their own rascal philosophy that there is no life after death. Although they're experiencing that I am changing my body in this duration of life. I know that I have a child's body, child's body. That body's finished. Still I'm existing. So why I shall not exist after this body's finished? Where is the logic? Where is the... The simple logic they cannot understand. So dull brain. And they're advanced in civilization, big, big professor, big, big Indologist, this logic. The simple reason they cannot understand. What did they say? You have talked to many men about this logic?

                                                                                                                                                                        377149

Prabhupāda: But you want to approve God, if we agree to that, then this is the easiest process. You chant God's name and you approach. Why again new? This is the easiest proposition. Eh? Chant God's name and you approach.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā it says that those who are different modes of nature, they have different types of charity and different types of religion. So does this mean religions that are already established in the Vedas or...

Prabhupāda: That is means conditional religion. That is not absolute religion. In order to, what is called, summarize all types of religion... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ, "Everyone is trying to come to Me." So they are coming by different paths. So that is accepted. Now, when he says that "I am here. You're coming to Me, now you just surrender. Then everything is all right." Why don't you accept that? Why do you insist, "No, I shall come in a different way, different path"? What is this nonsense? God is saying "All right, you have got different paths, but give up that. Now simply surrender to Me." Where I am objection? If I am a really lover of God, God is saying like that, why not accept that? Why shall I pay for different paths? Eh? Suppose in this jungle you are scattered and you are searching "Where is Prabhupāda? Where is Prabhupāda?" And somebody says, "Come this way. Come this way." And if I say, "Not this way, that way. Come here. Come here." What is your objection? Eh? Either you don't want me... (laughs) Eh? You don't want me. You want to play some whimsical way. You are not serious about me? If you're actually serious about God, God says here, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e... "Give up all this nonsense. Just surrender un..." Why they do not accept it. Eh? What is your answer, Satsvarūpa?

Satsvarūpa: I think your answer's that they want to play a kind of hide and seek. They don't really want to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their foolishness. They don't want to go.

Guru Gaurāìga: They say they would rather search than find.

Prabhupāda: But search. That's all right. Search means you do not know, therefore searching. But if you're searching for something and you get that something then why you should search any more? Searching means you do not know. You're searching. But if I say "Come here. I am here." Just like child is crying. There is no toys, his mother... Mother says, "Child, come here." He comes here. That's all. That is real searching. Or what is this searching? Either you do not know what you are searching or you are making a false play.

Devotee: Right.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Is this one bathroom? Religion means actually relation with God, to know God. They don't think like that. They say religion does not mean search of God. Is it not?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They say that there's one place that you cannot see God.

Prabhupāda: That's all right but what do you mean by religion first of all? I cannot see God. That is another thing. But that does not mean there is no God.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I cannot see the president. That does not mean there is no president.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Because I cannot see therefore there's no president. Is that very good logic?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: You may not see. You're unfit to see. You're not qualified to see. But why there shall be no God?

Satsvarūpa: I was taught that that is God's nature, invisible spirit.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: I was taught in religion that God... That is His nature, not that I can't see Him, but He is a person. But that I can't see Him because He's invisible spirit.

Prabhupāda: Invisible. That means you have no eyes to see. Even if He is spirit. That's all right. But invisible means you have no capacity to see. That is the meaning of invisible. That I cannot see. So you're disqualified, that does not mean He's dis... not visible. He's visible but not to you because you have no eyes to see Him. That we also say. Therefore we have to prepare the eyes to see. That is religion. I cannot see at the present moment that does not mean I shall stop (indistinct). I must prepare myself how to see. That is real intelligence. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                   June 9, 1974, Paris                                                                377193

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. These rascals, they do not know that our process is most difficult. Because as soon as ask them that "Give up meat-eating," it is very difficult task for them. And actually, it is very difficult for them. You see? That gentleman in Geneva, as long as I was talking about meat-eating, he became little disgusted.

Satsvarūpa: He said, "Why don't we speak of higher principles?"

Prabhupāda: Yeah. Because this is the beginning of higher principles. "No, no, this may let... Let it remain. Let us go to the higher principles." The rascal does not know that you cannot go without learning A,B,C,D, how you can ask for passing M.A. examination? But "No, I do not know A,B,C,D, but let me go for passing M.A. examination." You see. This is A,B,C,D, that yeṣām anta gatam... Any sinful man, he cannot understand about God. It is not possible. Paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. But without being pavitra, they want to go to the platform of understanding God.

Yogeśvara: Just like that Gene Herbert.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: Just like that Sanskritist in Geneva.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "I, I am smoking. I do not like to give it up." (laughter) You see.

Bhagavān: I think from here we have to walk on the sidewalk. There may be cars coming.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the western countries. That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my godbrothers went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, "Can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" And then he said, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these things: no illicit sex, no intoxication." He said, "Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible." So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Even our men, after so much training, they're also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing.

Bhagavān: Is the path down at the lake very big?

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Bhagavān: Would you like to walk down by the lake or is this...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is all right. In India, also, although they are vegetarian, they cannot give up smoking even beedie. They cannot give up chewing pan. You see? This is very difficult task. I was thinking when I first came that as soon as I propose these things, because I have got experience that Lord Zetland said, "It is impossible," what they, they'll accept? And I'll have to go back again. But I did not make any compromise. Just like other rascal yogis and swamis, they say, "Yes, yes. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever... You practice nose pressing. That's all. And give me my fees. Then you'll (indistinct)." This is not possible.

Bhagavān: When you had your talk several years ago with the professor in Russia, he made the point, when you were discussing about the regulative principles, that if you follow these principles, then your life becomes very simple, and if you don't follow these principles, life becomes very complicated. He appreciated that one point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our... Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Without anartha-nivṛtti... Anartha-nivṛtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivṛtti, there cannot be attachment for God.

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā

tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ

athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudaïcati

sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ

These are the steps. So after anartha-nivṛtti, one is firmly fixed up in devotional service. And if the anarthas are disturbing him, then he's not fixed up. He'll fall down. He'll fall down. That risk is already there. So these people are so much accustomed to this anartha, and they cannot give it up.

Bhagavān: What is the best way to gradually get them detached?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhagavān: The best way to gradually get them detached?

Prabhupāda: Bhajana-kriyā. Therefore bhajana-kriyā, sādhu-saìga, association with devotees and stick to the devotional program. Just like devotional program we have got. Bhajana-kriyā. This is called bhajana-kriyā. One cannot be slack in the process of devotional service. Then it will be... Vidhi-mārga, the regulative principles: chant sixteen rounds, rise early in the morning, have maìgala-ārātrika, read books, take your bath--these are the process. Bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana means devotional service, and kriyā... The yogis, they call kriyā-yoga. So this lake is dirty water, eh?

Bhagavān: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Drain water.

Bhagavān: Generally, all these rivers, everywhere now, are all contaminated.

Prabhupāda: That means the mode of civilization is so nice that everything is becoming contaminated. And why not the people? They’re also contaminated.

Bhagavān: That is called madness when they...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagavān: Madness when they keep creating things which are hurting them, but they don’t stop.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā. Māyā is very strong.

Bhagavān: We can go down this way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...different countries, they are very careful. When foreigners come, if they bring some fruit, “No, no. You cannot take it within.” And they keep the lakes contaminated. You cannot bring in one fruit, but you can keep the whole lake contaminated. This is their intelligence. Why they are contaminating? Eh?

Bhagavān: All the factories.

Prabhupāda: Their very business is contaminated, factories. [break] Even the sea has become contaminated.

Bhagavān: The sea?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: In Long Island and those places, if you go, the sea, the sea is so dirty.

Nitāi: In New York, they’re anticipating a crisis because for many years, they’ve been taking all their trash and rubbish and putting it out in the sea. And now that whole part of the sea is coming in towards land, very, very contaminated.

Bhagavān: Yes. The article said that they dump their garbage in a certain area, and nothing can grow there except the most poisonous bacteria. And now that whole business is moving back towards the population.

Prabhupāda: Reaction. Everything... Yajïārthe karmaṇo yatra loko ’yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. Whatever you do, you are bound up by the reaction. That is nature’s law. [break] ...and occasionally there will be big war, and they’ll kill themselves. That’s all. Now they are killing animals. That is a separate from human being. But time will come, the human beings, they will kill themselves, one another. Not only one, two, but wholesale. Daily, millions or thousands will be killed. They want to avoid war. For that reason, they invented the United Nations. Eh?

Bhagavān: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason?

Bhagavān: For avoiding war?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: They want to maintain their pleasure.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why encroach upon others’ pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. Éśopaniṣad says, “Don’t encroach upon others’ pleasure.”

Bhagavān: Because they have no spiritual idea or spiritual pleasure, they can never be satisfied. So they’re always envious.

Prabhupāda: So there is no coconut tree, mango tree, banana tree. Huh? These are all useless tree, simply for becoming fuel. That’s all. They’re also condemned. Yes. Sinful trees. There are pious trees and sinful trees. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause)

 

Morning Walk                                                  June 11, 1974, Paris                                                               377264

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: He's puffed-up.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not puffed-up. It is simply foolishness, "Because I do not know, therefore all others..." Ātmavat manyate. Everyone thinks of others in his own standard. But that argument is not valid.

Bhagavān: Is that the same psychology that they, they only know of material body, so when they think of God, they think that God has material body also.

Prabhupāda: That is still lower grade man. But so far experience that "I have not... God is beyond my experience." Another point that in the Bible, Christ, Lord Christ says that "My Lord, Thy be hallowed..." What is that?

Devotees: "Hallowed be Thy name."

Prabhupāda: So God has name.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name."

Prabhupāda: Eh? So he admits God has His name. But it may be that he did not disclose or did not like to say, but there is already name. So it is up to the followers to know what is that name.

Yogeśvara: The Guru Maharaji followers say that God's name cannot be pronounced.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: They say that God's name cannot be...

Prabhupāda: No, Guru Maharaji is a rascal. Don't, don't take his name. He's not even a human being. (laughter) But we cannot compare Christ with Guru Maharaji. He, he's...

Yogeśvara: No, but still, the argument...

Prabhupāda: The argument, nothing. He's to be simply kicked on his face. That's all.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaja. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: One of the Ten Commandments, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain."

Prabhupāda: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" without any profit? So you can think because you are a rascal, but I know my business.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: You should reply like that.

Bhagavān: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: At that point, he stopped arguing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkeṇa yojayet (?). Śāstra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park. I do not know which way to go. It is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? (pause)

Bhagavān: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty-five years.

Prabhupāda: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, especially in this Gauòīya-Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Kṛṣṇa will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one remain humble?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... (aside:) Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Kārpaṇye. This is one of the items of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me."

Paramahaṁsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?"

Prabhupāda: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people...

Prabhupāda: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me?

Paramahaṁsa: For knowledge.

Prabhupāda: For knowledge. So take knowledge from me.

Yogeśvara: That's what you tell them.

Prabhupāda: "Otherwise, why you are asking, wasting your time and my time? If you are asking, you take knowledge from me." Is that all right?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If... The same example. Suppose I do not know which way to go. If I ask somebody, it is supposed that he knows. Is it not?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why I shall ask somebody? It is supposed that he knows. Now, when you ask him, then you must take his word. He says, "You go this way." You shall go there. And again, you say, "Why shall I go this way?" And why, rascal, you come to ask me? Is it not? You asked me, "Which way I shall go to go to that place?" I say, "You go this way." And if you again say, "Why shall I go this way?" "Then why, rascal, you come to waste my time and your time?" This is the answer. If you ask me, then you take my word. Eh?

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That's it. And if you think that I do not know, then why do you ask me, and waste your time and my time? Therefore śāstra says that "Ask from guru." If you accept somebody as guru, then ask from him. As soon as you ask, the man to whom you ask, he is your guru.

Satsvarūpa: Some people say they don't like to talk to Hare Kṛṣṇa people because we're like that. We always say we know everything about everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we know everything. That's a fact.

Satsvarūpa: They resent it, and they say, "Oh, you people, we can't talk with you."

Prabhupāda: You may resent, but we know everything. That is a fact.

Satsvarūpa: So how do we deal with that attitude if they're turned away by our...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a rascal. How we can...? We know everything, and he denies. Then what is the use of talking with him? And waste your time. Let him know everything. We have nothing, no business.

Satsvarūpa: We can't compromise and just say that we don't know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: What does he...

Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can...? You know everything. How you can say, "I don't know."

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You do not know practically that. You must be also a man of knowledge. Otherwise, you cannot say. You cannot be falsely say that "Yes, I know." You must know. Then you say. But if you think that you do not know, don't say foolishly like that. Then you'll be slapped. You must know also. So how do you know? The next question will be: "How do you know everything?"

Satsvarūpa: It's not that I am great, but it's the authority of my spiritual master and the śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is great. So I am talking of what Kṛṣṇa has said. Therefore I am great, I am knowing everything. It is not that I know everything. I do not know anything, but I, I am surrendered to a person who knows everything. Therefore I know everything. I take my knowledge from Him. So you should think how much knowledge you have assimilated. The knowledge is there, guru-kṛṣṇa. Guru is there. Kṛṣṇa is there. So we have to take advantage of guru and Kṛṣṇa, sad-dharma-pṛcchā, ask him, and become man of knowledge. Then you can say. If you simply think that "I have my guru, and there is Kṛṣṇa. Now I am perfect," no. You should ask and know. You must be man of knowledge. Then you can say, "Yes, I know everything." Dīkṣā. Dīkṣā, initiation, dīkṣā, this Sanskrit word, dīkṣā, means divya-jïānaṁ kṣipayati. To ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, "Yes, I know everything." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... Actually, we know everything. Just like when I speak, I immediately ask reference from Bhagavad-gītā, and we stop the man's argument. So if you become well-conversed with the whole Bhagavad-gītā, then you have full knowledge. There is no need of saying that "I do not know." You'll become full knowledge, man of knowledge. But you must study. Who is this man?

Bhagavān: It's his son.

Prabhupāda: Oh, your son? You have one son, one daughter?

Devotee Man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is your name?

Devotee: Bhakti dāsa.

Child: Bhakti dāsa.

Prabhupāda: Oh! You do not know your name? You ask your father? You do not know your name? You are asking your father, "What is my name?"

Child: No, I don't remember.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't remember your name? I...

Bhagavān: We began to call him Bhakti dāsa yesterday. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very good. (laughs) make him a Vaiṣṇava, very nice boy. Very good-looking boy. Don't let him deviate. This is the age to be careful so that he may not deviate. What is the age? Twelve years?

Devotee: Eleven.

Prabhupāda: Eleven. That's all. This is the age. Twelve to fifteen years, the boys become, by bad association, they become rotten. This hellish world is like that. They go to school and become demons.

Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste or free of...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's all right. Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four. It doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma... So the fact is God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known."

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is putting limitation on Kṛṣṇa, to say that you cannot see.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is putting a limitation on Kṛṣṇa if one says that He cannot be seen.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... Of course, you cannot challenge Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Kṛṣṇa reveals. He comes and He... (aside:) Don't... He reveals Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gītā, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty?

Paramahaṁsa: There's a verse in the Bhāgavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gītā, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can associate with Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad-gītā. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You've said that the Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's mind.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not different from His mind. Why do you say like that? This is material conception, the soul is different from body, the mind is different from soul. But Kṛṣṇa has no such difference. Therefore He's called absolute. Advaya-jïāna. His mind and Kṛṣṇa are the same. Kṛṣṇa and His name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and His words are the same. This is Kṛṣṇa understanding. Jesus Christ simply said that "Hallowed be Thy name." That means there is name. Now the question is why he did not say or utter the name? Now, there is already name. Why should he utter?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: There is already name, Kṛṣṇa. So why should he utter?

Paramahaṁsa: Is that why Christ didn't utter the name of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, he said, "Hallowed be Thy name. Hallowed be Thy name." So there is name already. That means he gave you chance to find out the name. And as he came to India, so you come to India and you'll get the name.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He was helping to lay the foundation for saìkīrtana movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. This is a chance for others to think, "Hallowed be Thy name." The name is glorified. "So where the name is glorified? Find out."

Bhagavān: I think we can turn around, this way.

Devotee: Let's go up by the river.

Bhagavān: Well, we have to go all the way round the lake to get to the car again.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Nitāi: Did you want to know where that was, "Hallowed be Thy name."?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: Were you asking where that was from?

Prabhupāda: No, you said. Somebody said it is, Christ said...

Nitāi: That's in what they call the Lord's Prayer, which was given by Christ himself. All the Catholics say that daily.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: The Catholics repeat that prayer daily.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Nitāi: The Lord's Prayer.

Prabhupāda: What is that prayer?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: One devotee, he asked to Christ, "How should I pray?"

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He said, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever."

Prabhupāda: Very nice prayer. Very nice prayer. (pause)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: This is vandanam. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgaḥ. This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants along... Therefore saìkīrtana. Bahubhir milita. Many devotees, chanting together, that is called saìkīrtana. So one, our movement is saìkīrtana movement, many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sādhu-saìga.

sādhu-saìga, sādhu-saìga----sarva-śāstre kaya

lava-mātra sādhu-saìge sarva-siddhi haya

Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that sādhu-saìga, association of devotees, is very, very important. Even for a moment, if there is association, he immediately comes to the path of perfection. (pause) So if you actually remain a sādhu, devotee, then anyone who will come with your association, he'll be perfect by association. Means, this process of perfection will begin immediately.

Paramahaṁsa: Our position in preaching should be to encourage people in all respects to associate with us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways.

Prabhupāda: Why compromise? You don't compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you'll also go down. When we, when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don't make any compromise. Do I make any compromise?

Devotees: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why shall we make compromise? That gentleman, Mr. Herbert, Gene Herbert, he said that "It has taken eighteen years to write these books." I said, "Still, there are so many mistakes." Immediately I said. And he could not say anything. Do you remember that?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Immediately I said, "Yes, you have labored eighteen years. Still, there are so many mistakes."

Nitāi: Anyone else would have said, "Oh! Very nice."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Eh? I did not say.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He said that morning "What can we do, Prabhupāda?" He said, "What can we do? If we do not compromise, we will make enemies."

Prabhupāda: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth; at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore, it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." You don't make friend-ship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm. Because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, you take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there?

 

Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Who is, who is protecting the cows?

 

All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty.

 

So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principles is animal.

 

They are not brāhmaṇas. Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmaṇas…. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business… They're after money. So they are less than śūdras.

If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it."

 

We shall protect. Simply we ask them that "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong?

 

We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing… You make this propaganda.

 

Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go-rakṣya.

 

So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges.

 

So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses.

 

So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child. Abortion. This is nature's law… The mother becomes child and child becomes mother.

 

So we must take to agricultural work to produce food and give protection to the cows…This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows, and work hard.

 

They'll live comfortably without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God.

 

They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization.

 

So all these meat-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows.

 

So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice, and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food. They'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes.

 

He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here!" Just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama… They can be trained up. They can understand also that "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Öhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away."

 

 

And if you make another society of cheaters and cheated, there is no profit. Therefore you have to follow the rules and regulations very strictly and become serious.

 

Yes, but if you follow the rules and regulations, automatically, you'll love Kṛṣṇa. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. These are the stepping-stones…

 

So that process we are prescribing, to rise early in the morning, have maìgala-ārātrika, worship Deity, offer food stuff, eat prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who will follow this principle, he will become purified. There is no need of education, because the devotion is already there. By following these rules and regulations, it will be awakened.

 

This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?

 

…Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise.

 

Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?

 

My idea is that all our centers should be self-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go 100 miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food.

 

Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural.

 

I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.

 

But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect even to an ant. Therefore that St. Francis...I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also… So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness… So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ.

 

That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and everything.

 

And once God eats from your hand, then your life is successful.

 

That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "One who is killer of animal, he cannot understand the spiritual science." Vinā paśughnāt. This is the statement. Paśughna means the animal killer. Therefore the first prohibition is stop this animal killing.

This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps plowing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors, what is called? Tractor?…And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation. And the man also will have occupation. There is immense land.

 

So we have to become very strong preacher. Then this movement will stay. If you simply take the temple worship, it will not stay very long…

 

Leaders means they should behave in such a way so that by following them, others will be benefitted. That is leader.

 

We want Arjuna or we want no one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This simple thing we must do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TEN

Room Conversation(2)                                      June  11, 1974, Paris                                                             377484

Prabhupāda: ...giving to the vultures. Let the flesh-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs)

Yogeśvara: It would ruin the economy.

Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy?

Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good...

Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, you take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't... You eat it. After death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right. You eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures.

Yogeśvara: Śakuni.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Who is, who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth-class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principles. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principles just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena... The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama, controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly... So the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. Human life means controlling. I give this example. Just like in the... In your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animals, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something. Get away. Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money. So I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principles is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left, keep to the right" for... This is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere. But he's not criminal. Because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately, he's criminal. Therefore human society means to abide first-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life. Freud. What is this Freud?

Yogeśvara: Sigmund Freud.

Prabhupāda: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing.

Yogeśvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's grand-daughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying, "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing.

Prabhupāda: He's ad... She's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing, they are leaders. Then what is that? Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ.

Nitāi:

śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ

saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ

na yat-karṇa-pathopeto

jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ

"Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils."

Prabhupāda: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon. A big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound:) "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughter.) That's all. Is it not?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by... That is stated here, śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals. That's all. Small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now na yat-karṇa..., karṇa-pathet, upeta...?

Nitāi: Upetaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal.

Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Jātu. What is...? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport?

Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the level of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service,..."

Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed, educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street.

Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D's who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck-driver and taxi driver.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhagavān: In the United States.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class too, the professors. They're the educated class of people.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not brāhmaṇas. Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmaṇas. Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear. We are not asking money, that "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad-gītā." We never say so. So those, these so-called teachers, they first of all set up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. Brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money. But I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business.

Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly or else they will be fired and get no salary.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise... It is straight commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." And because people are killing, they're... Now they are give man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception... At least, outside America, nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that?

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is their standard?

Yogeśvara: Did he say anything before he left?

Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the, he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow-killing. So he said...

Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparations. Then, so far meat-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it."

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow which is just like mother if they're even willing to practically kill their parents?

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong?

Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough, they're eating so much beef.

Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast. Fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death, or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cows is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take it's milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society.

Yogeśvara: If they don't kill it, they'll be even more cows.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: There'll be even more cows.

Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that "Don't..." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the... How long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows, eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. Where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go-rakṣya. That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing, it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows. You see. They're... Our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows. Because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places, they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four, this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning.

Bhagavān: He gave a proverb.

Prabhupāda: Rather, he supported.

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten years, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole human kind. And these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed. Amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, "Dum! dum!" and killed, be killed. You know. You showed me?

Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine.

Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestants. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child. Abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Where is Nitāi?

Bhagavān: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get, when their mother kills them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story?

Nitāi: The...?

Prabhupāda: Vyādha. The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu?

Nitāi: Which...?

Prabhupāda: This twenty-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā.

Nitāi: No, I don't think it's typed yet.

Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there.

Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you... Mām... This meaning, the flesh, is Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating. So this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. "He'll be given the opportunity to kill you." And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that "You are giving your life before goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra. While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra. The priest will say in the ear that "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra.

Yogeśvara: Māṁ sa.

Prabhupāda: Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa.

Nitāi: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it... She'll type it today or tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: There these things are discussed.

Yogeśvara: The story of Mṛgāri and...?

Prabhupāda: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows.

Bhagavān: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects...

Prabhupāda: How they'll understand, all dull-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvat ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiïcin na bhāṣate. A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter)

Bhagavān: That's intelligent.

Jyotirmayī: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very, big actress. She's known all over the world. She's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her, and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try.

Prabhupāda: This mayor, mayor...? This mayor?

Yogeśvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her.

Bhagavān: What about him?

Yogeśvara: He just wants to...

Prabhupāda: What did he say about himself?

Jyotirmayī: It's when I asked him. I asked him: "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow-killing?" So he said, "Oh... But there is this actress." Just give it, gave it to someone else to do.

Prabhupāda: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. So we must take to agricultural work to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows, and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee, you can start so many restaurants. That I have already... I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. We'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is also...

Yogeśvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā. We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachoris, puri, halavā and so many other things, juri,(?) and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the... That every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more.

Yogeśvara: Same.

Prabhupāda: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time... Just like in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction. Charge is the same.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow.

Bhagavān: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says, "I want to eat some fruits." "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in Bhāgavata. If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop, he'll bring one, what is called...?

Bhagavān: A bowl?

Prabhupāda: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is... What do you call, where you keep water?

Bhagavān: Pot.

Prabhupāda: Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice, and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food. They'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin... Rice was nothing. Rice... In our childhood, we have seen, two ānās per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one ānā. So by giving one ānā worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger... One saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama, and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here!" Just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama. He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya (?): "They are my men; don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up. Just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog. That's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair. One man has trained... I think most of you have seen. One tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Öhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... Kṛṣṇa is everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally, what is important, they do not know.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                    June 12, 1974, Paris                                                                378008

Prabhupāda: So he's not fit for that business, but he imitates. That is childish. Sometimes goes to the kitchen, wants to make foodstuff, preparation, and he is given some toys that "You just play with it." So every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is enjoyer, God is controller. So he wants to imitate God. That is called māyā. (French)

Pṛthu Putra: So what should the soul do if he cannot imitate God?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the soul... Just like the same example. The child should be guided by the father and mother. Similarly, we should be guided by God, Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. And the guidance is given personally by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if you follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and be guided by God, then you are happy exactly like a child is happy when he's under the protection of the parents.

M. Lallier: Yes. Why does the soul forgets, forget his relation...

Devotee: With Kṛṣṇa.

M. Lallier: With God?

Bhagavān: Why does the soul?

Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, (break) ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities. So we are maintained. And He is maintainer. So sometimes... (to translator:) Yes, explain. There is... Sometimes it happens the father maintains the children, but the same child sometimes gives up the protection of the father. "Why shall I live under the guidance of...? I shall become independent." There are many instances in your western countries. He's happy being under the protection of the parents, but he rebels. He goes away. So that he can do. But if the father is very big, very rich, and the son leaves home and goes away to live independently, he suffers so much inconveniences and that is his choice.

 

Morning Walk                                                  June 14, 1974, Paris                                                               379044

Bhagavān: They say if Kṛṣṇa knows already what you're going to do in the future, then what is the question of your independence?

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it. Do it." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... He was going to do sinful activities. Kṛṣṇa advises him, "Don't do it." Kṛṣṇa changes. Therefore He comes. Because Kṛṣṇa knows that in the future, you'll, you'll do all sinful activities, therefore Kṛṣṇa comes to check you, "Don't do it."

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: All that karma is erased as soon as he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it. Do this." Because He knows your future, therefore He comes to request you, "You rascal, don't do this. Do this." That is His knowing feature. "If you don't this, then I know you'll do simply sinful activities. So therefore I come to save you. Don't do this. Do this." What is the wrong there? Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham: "When they misuse their independence, then I come to check them." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...as tiny jīvātmās...

Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. If you don't surrender... That you can do also. But if you surrender, you are saved. And if you do not surrender, if you want to go to hell, Kṛṣṇa does not check you, "All right, go to hell." Kṛṣṇa comes to save you. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: "I shall save you from all sinful reaction of life. You have done so many lives simple sinful activities. Now you stop it. You surrender to Me, and I give you assurance that I'll save you." This is Kṛṣṇa's mission. And if you think that you don't want to be saved, all right, you can go to hell, again. You become again the worms of stool. That's your choice.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa:. So it's a very responsible position, to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Therefore those who do not do that, they have been described, mūòhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ. One who does not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, they're all rascals. That is our test. A man may be very nicely dressed, running fast in the motor car. Ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" "No, sir." "You are a rascal." That's all. Finish all business. We don't give any respect. We can give respect as a formality, but we can understand immediately, "Here is a rascal." That's all. Is that correct? Yes. To find out a rascal is very difficult job? Simply see that he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. He's a rascal. That's all. That they may say, "You are very sectarian." Just like a criminal, he's punished, and he may say to high court judge, "You are very sectarian. You are punishing me, and the other man, you awarded one million dollars. What is this?" Because he gave before a judgement that "This man must get this one million dollars," and next moment, he punishes one man, "Go to jail for six years." So the criminal may say, "Oh, you are so partial. You are giving, sending me to cell, and the other man, you are giving one million dollar. How is this?" But he does not know that he judging according to his work.

Devotee: If a person's senses are restrained by following regulative principles, but if his mind dwells in sense objects, is he becoming purified, or is he just a pretender.

Prabhupāda: Strained?

Devotee: Restrained, controlled.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: If the senses are controlled, but his mind is contemplating sense objects, is he a pretender or is he becoming purified?

Prabhupāda: No, no. By controlling the senses, gradually the mind will be controlled. You know. In the..., the tiger and the lion trained up to play in the circus, do you know how it is done?

Dhanaïjaya: They starve the animals.

Prabhupāda: No.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They feed them every time, whenever they do something.

Prabhupāda: No, after catching them from the forest, they kept within the bars, and no eating for at least one week. Then the trainer comes. Only whips. He comes, and open the doors and only: (makes sound) Flosh, flosh, flosh. So already he's hungry, weak, and he's whipped. In this way, he becomes fearful. As soon as the man comes, he becomes fearful. Then he gives him little food. In this way, after all it is animal, he thinks that "This man is my God. He can save me. He can kill me." Then he takes to him. Whatever he says, he takes. Similarly, if you do not give the ingredients for sense enjoyment, the mind will be controlled. That is the beginning. You simply... Don't give... The mind wants, "Now let me go to the restaurant." "No, sir." Beat him with shoes. Instead of going to the restaurant, he beats the mind with shoes. Then mind will not again say, "Go to the restaurant." That is called swami, gosvāmī. One who can control his mind, that is gosvāmī. We giving the title "Gosvāmī" But if you cannot control your mind, then you are unfit. Go means senses, and svāmī means master. One who can control the senses and master, he is gosvāmī. (pause) ...definition of gosvāmī there: vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegaṁ manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. You have to control the impulse of speaking, vāco vegam, the impulse of becoming angry, vāco vegam, krodha-vegam. Then manasa-vegam, force of the mind. Then udara-vegam, the belly. Belly, already, although it is filled up, and as soon as there is some nice... Please fill up again, again. This you have to control, udara-vegam. Udaropastha-vegam, genital. In this way, one who has controlled all these forces, he is able to make disciple all over the world. Otherwise, not this rascal guru. As soon as he saw one very beautiful secretary, "Oh, let me enjoy." And he's guru. So these are cheating. And people want to be cheated. Therefore the cheaters are there. (break) ...fourteen years old. A fourteen years old cannot be induced to marry a twenty-six years girl. That is unnatural. And by medical examination, it is found that he's at least thirty-two years. It is declared in the medical, and still, the rascals following him. That he's cheating by talking false things. So in one sense, the Western boys and young generation, they are actually hankering after some spiritual life. So any Indian, so-called sādhu and guru comes, they go there. But they are cheated unfortunately. So you make your society so strong that you be not cheated, and others may not cheat. Then it will be first-class. And if you make another society of cheaters and cheated, there is no profit. Therefore you have to follow the rules and regulations very strictly and become serious. Then you'll be ideal. People are in need of some spiritual energy. Therefore, as soon as some swamis or guru comes, they flock together to get some food. But these rascals are cheating. So you don't do that.

Paramahaṁsa: It's also said that if you follow perfectly the rules and regulations, but don't develop love for Kṛṣṇa, then you have wasted your time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but if you follow the rules and regulations, automatically, you'll love Kṛṣṇa. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. These are the stepping-stones. The devotional service develops by association. So if the associates are pure devotees, anyone who will come to that association will become devotee. (break) ...just like a young man and young woman. The devotion is there, love is there, but in the beginning, they should mix, or some presentation should be given, some, something eatable should be accepted, should be given. In this way, when the association is thick and thin, the love is there. The love is already there. It has to awakened by a certain process. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuìkte bhojayate guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati ca ṣaò-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. These are six types of loving principles, that you give, if you want to love somebody, you give something. And whatever he or she offers, you take from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You give him something to eat, and whatever he or she gives, you eat. Bhuìkte bhojayate ca. And guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. And you try to understand his heart, and your heart be disclosed to him or her. If you follow these principles, automatically the loving propensity will awaken. It is already there. It is not artificial. It has simply to be awakened by a certain process. So that process we are prescribing, to rise early in the morning, have maìgala-ārātrika, worship Deity, offer food stuff, eat prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who will follow this principle, he will become purified. There is no need of education, because the devotion is already there. By following these rules and regulations, it will be awakened. As, as, as in this straw, there is fire. Now, you ignite it, and just fan it, and the fire will come. It is already there, fire. But you know, you must know the process how to ignite fire. Huge fire will come. You can burn the whole garden from this straw. Is it not? So you must know the process, how to ignite fire. Fire is already there, in these trees, in these straws, in this grass. Fire is already there. That, that is the process. First of all, you must know that fire is already there. Now ignite. Then it comes more. Then burning, blazing. So the blazing fire is required. But that will come gradually. If you follow the process. That is described by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the Śikṣāṣṭakam, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. The first step will be cleansing of the heart. And in the heart there is God, already. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. The Lord is situated in everyone's heart. So actually yoga system is to find out the Lord within the heart. That is meditation. Lord is there already: simply we have to find it out. That, that if, if you are informed that within this park there is one hundred weight of gold is lying there. Now you have to find out. But the indication is there. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. The Lord, the Supreme Lord, is situated in everyone's heart. Now find him out. That is yoga system. So these people, without finding out the Lord by practicing... (end)

 

Room Conversation                                          June 14, 1974, Paris                                                              379338

Devotee: I just saw... Maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent."

Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā?

Devotee: They said he was found innocent.

Prabhupāda: In the court?

Devotee: Yes. Because, you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught...

Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By court?

Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign making secret tape recordings against the other party.

Prabhupāda: He did? And still he is innocent?

Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the democrats and had spies and everything in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men and there were all fired.

Prabhupāda: So that is not bad because in politics you have to do that. Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault?

Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit.

Prabhupāda: No, no, suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies. So I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not... Everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy, I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am.

Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on.

Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to... Each person has his own plans. And it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent.

Prabhupāda: Court says.

Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said, "I didn't know anything about it." He says, "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them."

Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy?

Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. In politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that... Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there was some misunderstanding in chess playing that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas, these things are not uncommon.

Devotee: But isn't that not good because the politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public, that "When I am elected I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many... They pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are... I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding.

Devotee: Because we will also have to do that.

Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana (?). You understand Bengali? No. That, "When you are going to dance... A girl, or a lady is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana, became little ashamed. So you are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground.

Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying, "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals... Just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying "How can these people be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life."

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that they cannot be leader, then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something, saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it.

Devotee: Therefore we must cheat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously because I know, "I am also thief." Means these appeal, that does not appeal because "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that "He is thief, he cannot be trusted," then he knows that "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Care care mastado bhāi (?). This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that "We all are thieves, all cousin brothers; so why this man should be only accused?"

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand. Because he is also vicious.

Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said, "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā, the elephant, he said the elephant...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So...

Devotee: And also when Karṇa... Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot.

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character that people can see that "Here is an ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics... They are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, they people. So when you point out that "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family members, they scrutinizingly studying, that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?"

Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are.

Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty? Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming... The same thing: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."

Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest now."

Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want.

Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places. He could not find out. First of all he gave him four places, that "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles, that "What is wrong there?"

 

Room Conversation                                           June 15, 1974, Paris                                                             379665

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described. In Kali-yuga.

Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto?

Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (break) ...it is stated.

tasmāt kṣudra-dṛśo martyāḥ

kṣudra-bhāgyā mahāśanāḥ

kāmino vitta-hīnāś ca

svairiṇyaś ca striyo 'satīḥ

"Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan,

rājānaś ca prajā-bhakṣāḥ

śiśnodara-parā dvijāḥ

dasyūtkṛṣṭā janapadā

vedāḥ pāṣaṇòa-dūṣitāḥ

"The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see.

Yogeśvara: That's Paris.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta it was dangerous to go out because the next... You do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a... I was guest in our life member's. Sitting in morning, afternoon, o'clock (?). "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the backside. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) ...about so-called saintly persons, they are: tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ. "The so-called yogis, they'll live in the town." Actually, the yogis have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in... Just like the other... He's living in Paris City, and he's a yogi.

Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ: "And the sannyāsīs, they'll be too much greedy about money."

Yogeśvara: Just see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

hrasva-kāyā mahāhārā

bhūry-apatyā gata-hriyaḥ

śaśvat kaṭuka-bhāṣiṇyaś

caurya-māyoru-sāhasāḥ

Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power. The wife... The divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Here it is:

vāso 'nna-pāna-śayana-

vyavāya-snāna-bhūṣaṇaiḥ

hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā

bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ

"In the Kali-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa," you see. I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's... What is that?

Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions...

Yogeśvara: Lion's Club?

Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street.

Yogeśvara: They call them "Flophouses".

Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna. Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking, milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana, sleeping or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, and vyavāya, sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna. I have seen in New York. They have no... In a humbug, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna. So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ, "and dress," hīnāḥ, "being devoid of all these things," piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti, "they will be just like, what is called, urchins."

Yogeśvara: Piśācī.

Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca. What is the English?

Nitāi: Ghost?

Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghost-like. Hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ: "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then?

kalau kākiṇike 'py arthe

vigṛhya ca tyakta-sauhṛdāḥ

tyakṣyanti ca priyān prāṇān

haniṣyanti svakān api

"In the Kali-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cents." Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api.

 

Morning Walk                                                June 17, 1974, Germany                                                          380020

Prabhupāda: What is there? He is digging? (break) Just see the fun.

Devotee: Of all the four pillars of sinful activity, is meat-eating the worst?

Prabhupāda: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly. Very, very, big, big building and advancement, but all rascals and fools. Fool's paradise. (pause) And if you call a fool a fool, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). (pause) (break) ...so many, so much production, but if nature's law can stop this production, then the question of over-population. If the nature likes, it can produce three times, four times this production. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. After all, nature is producing. We do not know how to deal with nature. Therefore there is scarcity, and we say, "over-population." There is no question of over-population. There are so many hundreds and thousands of birds within this forest, other animals. They have no problems of over-population. Eh? (pause) All these men, who are living in these villages, so what is their means of livelihood? Agriculture or industry? Or service?

Haṁsadūta: I think mostly they work at some... Well, some service, yes.

Prabhupāda: Factory.

Haṁsadūta: Employed at some factory. But very few people actually work on the land. And we can see so much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. (break)

Prabhupāda: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.

Devotee: Now they've found out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that India has been, over the past few years, spending crores of rupees to develop the...

Prabhupāda: Hm. And people are starving for want of. There was a cartoon that some public came to some minister: "Sir, we are starving. Give us our food." So the reply was: "Of course, that's a problem, food problem. But I can assure you that from next week you'll have television." (laughter) These rascals are like that. "Next, from next week, you'll have television, atom bomb. Never mind. Starve." (laughter) So that is also becoming fool's paradise. Jaòa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. In this way, the more we increase sense, sense gratification by advancement of material..., the more we forget Kṛṣṇa. And more we forget Kṛṣṇa, we are more fools. (aside:) Don't come so near.

Devotee: In England and America now, more and more there is a big movement for birth control and contraceptives...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: ...as their means to conquer over the so-called over-population problem.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not over-population. They don't want to take care of children. This is their problem. It is not the question of over-population. They want to remain free and enjoy life, that's all. No responsibility. That is the hippies. That is the hippy movement.

Devotee: I have seen in all the big colleges and universities in England that I have been to, that this, amongst the students, the boys and girls, it is becoming so free. It is just like a hippy commune, the universities and colleges.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are indebted in so many ways. Therefore human being should be responsible. But the modern civilization is teaching to become irresponsible.

Haṁsadūta: (break) ...there, on the sun.

Prabhupāda: So suppose if your heat increases, what happens to you?

Haṁsadūta: I get sick.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ. Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baòa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇòavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything. And they'll purchase from Germany goods and cheat people...,

Haṁsadūta: And sell...

Prabhupāda: ..."Made in London," and sell it fifteen times higher than the Germans. This was their business. And that was the cause of... Is it not? Those who have studied history... This is the cause. So all this nonsense thing can be solved if we take it: "This is Kṛṣṇa's property." And if you know something, you are manufac..., that's all right. You do it. I do something else. Or even if I do it, where is the cause of fighting? Because they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               June 19, 1974, Germany                                                           380152

Prabhupāda: ...five items. No illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat-eating and chant sixteen rounds. Is it very difficult task?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: And why people do not take it?

Haṁsadūta: They are just foolish.

Prabhupāda: If by following these five principles one can be saved from all problems of life... Still, people will not take it. Just see, strong māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. (break) What was the later on talk?

Haṁsadūta: With her? She just left. But the other old lady, who was appreciating your movement, she was singing and dancing all night. She was incredible. Singing and dancing and playing karatālas.

Prabhupāda: At present Christian religion is made easy. Christian religion made easy. What is that? Now, first of all Christ has taken out contract that "You go on committing all sinful life. I am guaranteeing you will be saved." Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Or...? What is that?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So poor Christ has taken all concern. He will be crucified, and they will enjoy life. This is very easy religion. "I have nothing to do, and besides that, if Christ says something to do, that also we can neglect because he has taken guarantee. So although Christ says, 'Thou shalt not kill,' I can neglect that." And then, if still he is captured, he will say, "Bible is very old."

Haṁsadūta: How can we accept it?

Prabhupāda: (laughing) How they have made easy life, that see. They are... There is a story that a boy went for examination. So when he came back, his father asked, "My dear boy, how you have written your question paper?" "Yes, very nice." "How?" "No, those questions which were very difficult, I could not answer. And the easier questions, what is to write? I know everything. (laughter) Easier questions, there is no need of writing. I know everything." Both ways he has not written anything. So these rascals, both ways they will not follow anything. And still, they will credit... Not only Christians, everywhere these people want to banish God. Simply we are canvassing "God, God, God." Otherwise nobody cares. Say about 1945, so in front of my house there was an old man. So as neighbor, we had very good talks always. So as soon as I say, "Bhagavān," he will be angry. "God." So one day he said, "Why you always say Bhagavān, God?" Just see, an old man and still he is such a rascal. He did not like. That is called demonism. Even the father of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that five years old boy, he was doing nothing harm, simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa--he became angry: "No, no." So big enemy that he wanted to kill him. This is demoniac. Some bad smell?

Haṁsadūta: I don't know. (break)

Prabhupāda: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America.

Haṁsadūta: What was the name of it?

Prabhupāda: MRA, MRA, Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you?

Haṁsadūta: No. Do you, Satsvarūpa? No.

Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that "You do whatever you... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. (break) ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?

Satsvarūpa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in Gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction.

 

Room Conversation                                       June 19, 1974, Germany                                                           380374

Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru. That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Now, who is guru? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru, śrotriyam, who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru. Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru, he is not guru. This is called guru-paramparā, disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our... (aside:) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. So I am always inexperienced because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. he asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone?" That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge: You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be, not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God who has come directly from him, the same. So, but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect, not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijïāsuḥ śreya uttamam. This is... Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter.

Satsvarūpa:

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha mahatā

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes.

Professor Durckheim: You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Professor Durckheim: Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our western, as you know better than I do, in our western kind... And they say, "Well, after all..." You see, science, they say, "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said, "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me? You have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life."

Professor Durckheim: No, nothing.

Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very quite visible in the western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life--to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā. That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha. The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the...

Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated.

Professor Durckheim: There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question.

Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end... Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna, or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into...

Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than, lower animals, birds, beast, and other, they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating.

Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being. We are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have not even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die. Then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars, war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only... Without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb, and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living: "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā: "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cowdung, we have stacked here. I have seen. There also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. In Buddhism there is no animal killing. Although they are now killing animals, but originally Buddha religion means non-violence. Also Lord Christ also said, "Thou shalt not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says, ahiṁsā. So in no religion unnecessary killing of animals is allowed. Even in Mohammedans, they are also... Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the Mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted.

Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away?

Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientists, Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. The trees have got sensation.

Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree...

Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits.

Professor Durckheim: We cut it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary.

Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra.

ahastāni sahastānām

apadāni catuṣ-padām

phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ

jīvo jīvasya jīvanam

That "Those who have no hands--that means animals--they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four-legged." Just like grass has no legs, but it is a food fo the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, phalgūni tatra mahatām: "Then one who is powerful, very powerful..." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way, the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the... That is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give Me these foodstuffs." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization, not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes.

Haṁsadūta: There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening.

Prabhupāda: No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. I have published about fourteen books like this.

Professor Durckheim: Incredible, incredible. What a thing!

                                                                                                                                                                        380675

Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our, or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a forest university in the tradition of the ancient times.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Pater Porsch: A kind of a university also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes.

Prof. Pater Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences.

Prabhupāda: My idea is that all our centers should be self-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go 100 miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New..., West Virginia, Virginia, and similarly in other centers, we are producing our food, grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animals. That we don't do.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 21, 1974, Germany                                                           380958

Prabhupāda: ...were caught, that "Here Rādhārāṇī was sleeping." (Break) ...and was talking about the name of God. So if we are chanting the name of God, what is your objection to accept the name of the Lord?

Professor Durckheim: What's the objection to?

Prabhupāda: Objection to accept the name which we are chanting?

Professor Durckheim: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Was not that? What did he say?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, that God had no name.

Prabhupāda: God had no name, then Jesus Christ.

Haṁsadūta: His point was actually that God had no name, otherwise He would be a person. But I think you missed that point.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, I stressed that if God has no name, then why Christ said that "Hallowed be Thy name"?

Professor Durckheim: Well, he explained from his theologian point of view, when Moses was asking God, "Who is Thy name?" God didn't give a name but said only, "I am who I am." And then He explained if in the prayer one says, "Blessed be thy name," they use this in order to avoid a direct name. So just only say, "The name." But I don't understand the whole thing because the word God already is... What do you want more? And I believe that in the Christian religion, everybody just says God. They think the word God is the name and nothing more needed.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not very good sense, that president, president of America. People say " 'President' is sufficient." Then why "Mr. Nixon"? They are all fools? No, they say, "Mr. Nixon," sometimes they say, and sometimes, "the President." Rather, they say more "Mr. Nixon" than "the President." Why?

Professor Durckheim: Sure. But I only can say...

Prabhupāda: So this argument, this argument is not very sensible argument.

Professor Durckheim: No, but that is the answer they would give. I don't believe the special name of God is for me the name, the word God. We are praying to God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Then name... When Christ says, "Hallowed by Thy name," there is name. The name is Kṛṣṇa, already there. Therefore he did not require to say again. But the name is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Viṣṇu is there, Mādhava is there, Govinda is there. There are thousands and thousands of names. So you pick up any one of them. And chant it. Why do you say there is no name? Then we are chanting the name. Then what we are? We are all rascals and fools? If he says, "No, there is no name," Christ confirms there is name, and we are chanting the name. How you can say there is no name?

Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite. Well, I understand exactly what you mean very well.

Prabhupāda: There is name. It is confirmed. "Hallowed be Thy name." Now, we are chanting the name. What is your objection? You chant this name.

Professor Durckheim: I have no objection.

Prabhupāda: No, you... I mean to say anyone.

Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite.

Prabhupāda: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Kṛṣṇa, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing?

Professor Durckheim: I think they don't know it, and then...

Prabhupāda: That is the fact. They don't know it. And still, they are theologicians. They are philosophers.

Professor Durckheim: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They do not know anything; still, they are teachers. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that one is not qualified man, and he is teacher. He has become a teacher.

Professor Durckheim: Yes, the theology is very much a collection of hardened, petrified interpretation of original experiences. And just because they are petrified very often, today theology has nothing to say to our generation.

Prabhupāda: No. I have got many disciples. They were formerly theologicians. What is the name, that boy in America?

Satsvarūpa: In Arabia?

Prabhupāda: No, no. There was a boy. He was theologician. Prajāpati, Prajāpati. Do you remember? He was theologician. Our only request is that Bible confirms there is name. Now, even though they do not know the name, here is the name, Kṛṣṇa. So why people will not take this name to chant? And if by chanting the name there is practical benefit, why they should object? Why they should be so sectarian? Theologician, at least, must not be sectarian. So let the whole world chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So there is no loss. If there is any gain, why not take it? And because you are writing books, therefore I am requesting you to write this, that some of the Christians, they say there is no name, but Christ says there is name, and here is the name. They are chanting, and they are getting profit. We don't want anything. We don't want any price, that I have researched the name.

Professor Durckheim: They chant the name...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Professor Durckheim: ...in orthodox church and also very... They chant the name of Jesus. Again and again, the whole day, they say the word "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, have pity of us. Jesus, Jesus have pity of us."

Prabhupāda: But Jesus said, "God, hallowed by Thy name." Jesus never said that "You chant my name." No gentleman says like that. He said, "Hallowed be God. Hallowed by Thy name." And why they are sectarian? If there is name already, why do they not chant it? And what is the harm?

Haṁsadūta: There are so many places. At one point he says, "I have kept them in your name. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." So many references to the name.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Professor Durckheim: The Jews have the Jehova, Jehova name, Jehova, but they don't chant.

Prabhupāda: No? They are not following.

Professor Durckheim: Jehova. How beautiful it is here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice. (pause) Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is presented in such a nice way that go on reading, reading there are eighteen thousand verses, and in each verse you will find new knowledge about God, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And if you study one verse, it will take at least one month.

Professor Durckheim: Yes, I suppose so.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So eighteen thousand months you have to live.

Professor Durckheim: Very good.

Prabhupāda: How many years, eighteen thousand months?

Haṁsadūta: About 1,300.

Prabhupāda: Eighteen thousand months, divide by twelve.

Professor Durckheim: Twelve thousand months would be thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So...

Haṁsadūta: 1,500 years.

Prabhupāda: What these theologicians think about God? It is already 1,500 months' substance to read. What they will discover? Teeny discovery? We have already stock for 1,500 years' understanding. So what we have to understand from them? (break) ...anādir ananta-rūpam. This is only for Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa has got expansions--unlimited. Advaita, acyuta, ananta. Ananta means unlimited. God, His one feature is Kṛṣṇa, and He has unlimited features. If a gentleman simply reads the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam quietly at home, he will be fully conversant, fully aware of what is God. Just like a scholar. He is not limited in one university or in one book. He reads various books to understand the subject matter of his research. Similarly, those who are actually serious about understanding God, they should not stick only to a particular scripture. They should read all others where the information of God is there. Just like we sometimes quote from Bible, but the Christians, they cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. They cannot do that. But they do not read. Even they do not read fully their Bible.

Professor Durckheim: No, they don't.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And still, they want to be masters of understanding God. I have seen many scholars in the western countries. They are well known as Sanskrit scholar. But they cannot quote even a verse.

Professor Durckheim: I see. Well, it's a pity. Sanskrit scholars...

Prabhupāda: Yes. But I understand in Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.

Professor Durckheim: It seems so.

Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many learned Sanskrit scholars. But till now I have not met any one of them.

Professor Durckheim: Well, to be a scholar in the usual sense of the word and to really go into the meaning, they are two different things. There are sometimes people who seeks to be a scholar, but in their actual knowledge, they have no insight. And that's also the case in the, with the theologian and the Bible. They know the Bible sometimes...

Prabhupāda: No, that is required.

Professor Durckheim: ...but they don't enter into the meaning. They interpret it just along their small brains because they haven't got the experience.

Haṁsadūta: Do you want to go this way around, Prabhupāda, or just walk straight on?

Prabhupāda: No, straight. Car is there?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, car is there, following us. (break)

Prabhupāda: Artificially they live in the city.

Professor Durckheim: Yes, there are now millions and millions of children who never have seen a cow, never seen a horse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Professor Durckheim: They go and stand at the zoo to see an animal. Yes, It's true. And I have just now in my center the visit of six Americans from Chicago who have their psychological center, and they wanted to know what we do, and they told me. They have a special little area where children are taken to see one cow, you see, or one horse just to know what it is because they never see it, never see an animal.

Prabhupāda: Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural.

Professor Durckheim: Oh, there are many children, they have never seen a tree. (break) ...sleeping only very few hours.

Prabhupāda: Not very few hours. Say, four, five hours altogether. Altogether. Maximum five, minimum four.

Professor Durckheim: All the night or do you at the day sometimes?

Prabhupāda: No. At night I get up at one, at half past one, sometimes half past twelve. But I take a little rest, one or two hour in the daytime. So two hours at night, two hours at day, or three hours at night, two hours in day. In this way, altogether five hours, not more than that. Our predecessor gurus, Gosvāmīs, they were taking rest not more than two hours or 2-1.2 hours. So we should come to that standard, yes. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. About them this description is: they reduced their sleeping, nidra. Nidra means sleeping. And āhāra. Āhāra means eating and collection. Collection is also āhāra. Yes. So they were mendicant. They had no collection. And they had no preaching mission. They were simply writing books. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau, very expert to study different scriptures just to get the essence of scripture and give to the people. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. So their life was engaged for the benefit of the whole human society. What these people are talking philanthropy and humanitarian? They dedicated their life for... Just like we are doing. It is not for any sect or any person. For the whole human society. So that should be the mission. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau. Therefore their literature is honored all over the world, all over the universe. Just like our books. We are selling all over the world, all universities, all school, all colleges, all gentlemen. It is not sectarian. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. This was their hard labor, and rādhā-kṛṣṇa-bhajanānandena mattālikau, and they were very much pleased in worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity. All the Gosvāmīs established a Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. In Vṛndāvana each and every Gosvāmī established one temple in the beginning. Then others followed. Rūpa Gosvāmī established Govindajī's temple. And Jīva Gosvāmī established Rādhā-Dāmodara temple.

Professor Durckheim: The Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa center in Geneva, for instance, has there any connection with you, the Swami Nityabowa-badananda? (?)

Haṁsadūta: No.

Professor Durckheim: No, no connection.

Prabhupāda: They are all impersonalists. The whole world is impersonalist. Perhaps we are only the personalists.

Professor Durckheim: You know that the Christian theologian, they think the main difference between them and Eastern religions altogether is that the Christian are personalists and Eastern tradition is not personalist. This is the whole...

Prabhupāda: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Māyāvādī philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president?

Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighās of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference. We are preaching, "Everything is here in Kṛṣṇa, in God." We have... There is a tendency here. Just see. They want to worship Deity. Even on the street side there is such thing. The tendency is to worship Deity, person. I have seen in Rome. In many small lanes, they have got this, yes. Personal worship. So the village men, they are all sleeping now?

 

Room Conversation                                       June 22, 1974, Germany                                                           381101                                   

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery.

Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic?

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman Catholic and also the customs of life... It's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary.

Prabhupāda: Like us.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me."

Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language?

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, Christ.

Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, Christ, Kriza (?), Kristos, who is Christ by oil. Anointed. Christos, Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, anointed.

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa.

Emmanuel Peter: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor, the Sanskrit meaning, attractor, one who draws, draws everyone nearer. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And that all-attractive drawer is God.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, I think so too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it?

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, I think that Christ, (German)

German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God... The name of God is Christ.

Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ said to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why?

Emmanuel Peter: We have name of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?

Emmanuel Peter: We talk God, "Father," or "our Father."

Prabhupāda: No, "Father..." Just like your son may call you, "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. such and such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father, "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, God is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ or Jesus the son of Christ or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is... Either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, when we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name... (German)

German devotee: He says that when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos.

Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: Because a name is of God. We know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality: God, father, son and holy ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ. The name is there. And we are recommending according to Vedic scripture that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that,

 

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

 

Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting Kṛṣṇa, or God, along with His energy. He has got two energies, spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation--I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God--that is pure religion.

Emmanuel Peter: Pure religion, yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti.

Emmanuel Peter: Mukti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti.

Emmanuel Peter: And mukti too.

Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti, there is no mukti. Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti, he has already attained mukti.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa.

German devotee:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

Translation in English?

Prabhupāda: Let him... German translation will help you?

Emmanuel Peter: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but... (German)

Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (Devotee reads in German)

Emmanuel Peter: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Parabrahman. Parabrahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam. The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti, the impersonal Brahman, paramātmeti, the localized Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences, the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead.

Emmanuel Peter: That's very good.

Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he becomes associate of God. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: (German)

German devotee: (translating for Emmanuel Peter) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way.

Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, but we are limited.

Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names, not one or two but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God love?

Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not?

Emmanuel Peter: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real.

Emmanuel Peter: Will that means that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source?

Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like.

Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians, they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position.

Emmanuel Peter: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient. Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not?

Emmanuel Peter: Um...

Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed.

Emmanuel Peter: I personally agree.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Emmanuel Peter: I personally agree.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing.

Emmanuel Peter: And you think it's a principle point, the top point.

Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. (German) Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come.

Emmanuel Peter: I understand.

Prabhupāda: This is called ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya. If you... I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken. The chicken or what is called, cock, that?

Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens.

Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen?

Haṁsadūta: Hen.

Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that "This mouthpiece is expensive because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because it's a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole, this side and that side, then business will go on. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: In the Christian tradition... (German)

Prabhupāda: The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God?

Emmanuel Peter: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says, the Christianity understands...

Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, killing and murder. Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word murder instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German)

German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking...

Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill"--the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: No, I understand.

Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? (German)

German devotee: (translating for Emmanuel Peter:) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing?

Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same?

Emmanuel Peter: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also the same.

Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable because our Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. (German)

German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty-upahṛtam.

German devotee: (reads translation in German)

Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants: "Give me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. (German) But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa-viddham, sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine, but you cannot drink urine. (German) So the injunction is tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (?). One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight the commander in chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful.

Emmanuel Peter: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom in the nature's way... Just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (German) (break) The perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam. Find out. (break) ...killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting Christ or Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant Kṛṣṇa, you chant Christ or Christo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. He says that God has got many multi names. Any one of them you chant because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless, if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name, then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu, here is Muslim, here is Christian, here is white, here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. (German)

Emmanuel Peter: I agree.

Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa--this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?

Emmanuel Peter: No.

Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up...

Emmanuel Peter: On my part, I...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty-four hours. Actually this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen. Hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousands churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian preach in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?"

Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?"

Emmanuel Peter: What was your answer?

Prabhupāda: Answer. What the answer?

Umāpati (?): Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German.

Prabhupāda: No no. The answer I gave, you do not remember?

Umāpati: Because they are intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes.

Emmanuel Peter: Yes, I understand.

Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes?

Guest: (German)

German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence but it is a question of humility.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement?

Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth."

Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road, if they see me, they immediately fall down flat. Never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said,

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

Yasya... "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." (German)

Emmanuel Peter: (German)

German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others.

Emmanuel Peter: Exercise upon others.

Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect.

Emmanuel Peter: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena. You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others.

Emmanuel Peter: I agree with all my heart.

Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.

Emmanuel Peter: I am very thankful to you for this...

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (everyone goes out--end of this discussion) (Break)

Guest: (German)

German devotee: (devotee translates for German man) Where is it written in Bhagavad-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma, d-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi….(end)

Room Conversation                                      June 28, 1974, Melbourne                                                         381416

Prabhupāda: ...dollar, three quarters.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And in your country...

Satsvarūpa: That would cost around fifteen dollars or something.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Still, India, I am surprised.

Devotee: It's good quality as well.

Prabhupāda: Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, at most, three rupees. Now the things have increased twice. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the U.S.A the binding cost is very, very... Just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad-gītā, hardbound, they charge ten dollars, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cents, and in America they charge six dollars. So all the fathers clapped for long.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They appreciated.

Devotee: Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Devotee: He appreciated that very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Amāninā mānadena. Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Amāninā mānadena. For... In one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for personal. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect even to an ant. Therefore that St. Francis...

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God. Any way, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood, actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind--that the grain of rice is not man-made. It is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy. So God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything... Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda... Ānandamaya. That God is ānanda. So there is the sample of ānanda. So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ. What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very, great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only... Every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ... We pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and everything. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇavas is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa:

 

ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ

viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param

This is the statement of Lord Śiva.

tasmāt parataraṁ devi

tadīyānāṁ samarcanam

"Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear..." Just like we worship tulasī. Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām. Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, the tulasī leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī. Because He likes. In common word they say, "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pat the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately. "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. What is the meaning?

Satsvarūpa: "By the mercy of the spiritual master, one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased. "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified. But because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God.

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone.

Satsvarūpa: But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy--that is etiquette--comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect: "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that "He's my enemy." That... The etiquette according to Vedic civilization: gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum... That was... Just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with you..." (Break) Unless one of the kings died... (Break) ...a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have... Where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still, they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūòha. (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūòha. Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūòhas, they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, "It is I am," they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say, "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūòha. Therefore it is said... The mūòha cannot explain all... And at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūòha. Mūòha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future, we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future. The future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history... In the history the future is past. This is common sense. So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum that future will never come. And still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come. And still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūòha. This is the explanation of mūòha. It is just like somebody offered you a post-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say, "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūòhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect.

Devotee: In Australia?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Attorney, in the... Attorney-General of the Federal Government. You saw that?

Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper.

Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much.

Devotee: I think so, yes.

Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly...

Satsvarūpa: At seven-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high-ranking in the church.

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Satsvarūpa: Ten after six, quarter after six. (end)

              

Room Conversation (2)with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church                                 June 28, 1974, Melbourne                                                                                                                                                       381248

Reverend Powell: Your people have a serenity that many western people don't have. What, what is the secret of serenity? And is it... I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such.

Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material.

Satsvarūpa: Serenity...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness.

Prabhupāda: Communist?

Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from?

Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes.

Reverend Powell: From what?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one...

Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā. These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God." No. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they... One of the qualifications is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty-five qualifications of a devotee.

Reverend Powell: Twenty-five?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: What are some of the others?

Prabhupāda: Have you got the list?

Satsvarūpa: Friendly... Uh, it's in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Right here, Teachings of...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: I don't... I believe, obviously, you would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What...? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? Or...?

Prabhupāda: No, it is practical. What is it?

Satsvarūpa: (Reading) It says, "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not..."

Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then?

Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert, and he is silent."

Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Colin (?) Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sidney. And in Sidney I had forty-one medical men on, and women, mainly men on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing?

Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically, we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees... We are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see?

Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors, but now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works with the physical level, and the psychiatrist works with the emotional mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease.

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease.

Reverend Powell: I'm sorry. I don't quite follow that.

Satsvarūpa: He said the real disease is the material condition in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age.

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reverend Powell: Umm... Yes, I see. On the point of reading... In this very interesting magazine and this...

Prabhupāda: You find out this verse of Bhagavad-gītā.

Reverend Powell: There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and the beans in particular, (laughs) there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were...

Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Find out. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya.

Satsvarūpa:

jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya

mām āśritya yatanti ye

te brahma tad viduḥ kṛtsnam

adhyātmaṁ karma cākhilam

"Translation: Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death, take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities."

Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context?

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Satsvarūpa: "Purport: Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service, is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman--spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities."

Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And...

Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service.

Reverend Powell: Always.

Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be freed from birth, death, old age and disease.

Reverend Powell: And... Were the papers correct in reporting you as... Well, they reported opposite things that... But you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is... Death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form. Is that it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the..., everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form, he goes, back to home, back to Godhead.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what is said here in the..., referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage.

Prabhupāda: Only, the sex allowed only for begetting nice children.

Reverend Powell: You don't feel that...

Prabhupāda: And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex.

Reverend Powell: And that is out.

Prabhupāda: That is not good.

Reverend Powell: What is your attitude to Jesus?

Prabhupāda: I have already explained in the meeting.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's...

Reverend Powell: Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean...

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He... Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo or Kristo or Kṛṣṇa.

Reverend Powell: Yes? Hm. Another thing. We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement and we really congratulate you, sir, on the very fine work (Prabhupāda chuckles) that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain... I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on that there are many thousands...

Prabhupāda: In Africa. In China, in Japan. Everywhere.

Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people...? Why are...?

Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation.

Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they, you have all ages?

Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.

Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew...

Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta?

Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this...

Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that.

Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We came by air. Was there some reference?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

"Translation: According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Read the purport.

Satsvarūpa: (Reads the entire purport, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, Chapter 4, text 13)

Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some get five and some ten. And...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (handles paper wrapping) You can close the door.

Devotee: Close the door.

Prabhupāda: So all our disciples, they are young men.

Reverend Powell: Yes, I noticed.

Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time.

Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, that some were given a few, and some were...

Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then...

Reverend Powell: What I'd like (break) I'd like to hear this, but...

Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brāhmaṇa category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here.

Reverend Powell: And this...

Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Symptoms.

Satsvarūpa:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first quality man.

Reverend Powell: Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the holy spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When, when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first-class man.

Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of communism, Your Grace?

Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state.

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth, everything belongs to God--that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area... Just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense, they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. National means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the communists or capitalists, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow, many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then. They said, "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage, the same wage is paid to all however long they work because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from that point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier...

Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is not limited within Christian or communist or capitalist.

Reverend Powell: No.

Prabhupāda: No. The principle... Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa. So the Indians, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion, because he's accepting brāhmaṇa from outside." So actually they're also not aware... Creation of God... Here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia. It is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brāhmaṇa. That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." This is applicable to every man. Not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community?

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area.

Reverend Powell: Right.

Prabhupāda: That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere.

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Christ said that "Thou should be, one should be meek and humble to go to, back to home, back to..." Eh? It is not?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So this is for everyone.

Reverend Powell: Yeah. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone.

Reverend Powell: Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired, you've got a big day tomorrow. I'm mustn't keep you. If I may.

Prabhupāda: Just here, please wait. Little, take little. Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You have been today there today in meeting?

Guest: Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice...

Prabhupāda: You were all present?

Guest: Yes.

Reverend Powell: You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you?

Devotee: Yes.

Reverend Powell: You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it? Tomorrow. I'll see something of it.

Prabhupāda: These flowers are very nice. They are called?

Devotee: Daffodil?

Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh.

Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they?

Devotee: Jonquils.

Prabhupāda: Very... Just see how God's artistic brain.

Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere God, nothing but God.

Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything is the God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God.

Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter.

Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up.

Reverend Powell: Made out of what?

Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter.

Prabhupāda: Milk preparation.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um,...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat.

Reverend Powell: Now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. (eats)

Satsvarūpa: Very juicy.

Reverend Powell: Hm. Very juicy. Hm.(laughs)

Prabhupāda: All of them, give, each, one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. Do you like?

Guest: Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter)

Reverend Powell: Something quite different. Hmm.

Devotee: Here, perhaps you can use this.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You, you, you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all?

Prabhupāda: No.

Reverend Powell: Why not eggs? Because...

Prabhupāda: We are not even vegetarian.

Reverend Powell: You're not.

Prabhupāda: No. We are negative of vegetarian and non-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda. Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian, nor non-vegetarian. Because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental.

Reverend Powell: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have another appointment.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               June 29, 1974, Melbourne                                                         381635

Prabhupāda: ...in the beautiful tomb. Then how do you go? Either hell or heaven, that doesn't matter. So how do you go there?

Madhudviṣa: They say that the material body and the soul join back together again at the end.

Prabhupāda: That is dehāntara-prāpti, another body.

Madhudviṣa: No, they say same body.

Prabhupāda: Same body means same material body. The form may be different. The form is actually different, because this form is lying in your tomb. It is not going. Where that... If it has gone, then why the body is here? That is dehāntara, another body. How you can say the same body? The same body is lying here. After death, if the same body is going, then why the same body is not going? Why it is lying here? They must be reasonable, not dogmatic. How it is same body?

Satsvarūpa: I don't understand their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Pure nonsense. Same body, how can you? The body is here.

Madhudviṣa: The body is rotting in the tomb, and then they say that the body at the end of the creation is reconstructed and reunited with the soul.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but not this body. Reconstruct.

Madhudviṣa: That they say, this body.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. This body, you can say, this is material body; that is also material body. But not this body. Just like you change your cloth. The other cloth also made of cotton, and this is also made of cotton. In the same way, you can say, "the same body," cotton body or dress. But you cannot say that this cloth or this dhoti is going with you. How they can say? This body is lying here. This body means this material body.

Madhudviṣa: They will say, "Some things you cannot understand. You must simply accept on faith."

Prabhupāda: "You cannot understand"--that is also good. Suppose a child cannot understand. But there must be some explanation. Otherwise, how in advanced stages one can accept. They will say, "dogmatic." This body means this material body, and this material body has got so many shapes, 8,400,000. So hell means... This is also hellish. A tree is standing for five thousand years or five hundred years. Is it not hellish? If I ask you, "Stand here for five days," you will die. (laughing) If there is such order from the government, "You stand here for so many days..."

Satsvarūpa: Naked. Naked too.

Prabhupāda: Naked. This is hellish. (dog barking) Now this, another hellish life. His only business is to bark. The master may like to keep a dog, but if he is said that "You also become a dog," he will not agree. Will he agree?

Madhudviṣa: But whether he agrees or not, he will become one, if he is too much attached. (break) ...the chief engineer of building the chariots, and all of these people are his assistants.

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha will be very much pleased upon you. Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Little service to God is taken as great service. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. So we should try always to give the best service, best energy, and you become liberated. Actually we cannot give any service to Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. What is the value of our service? But He takes it seriously: "Oh, he is trying to give me some service." Otherwise what service He needs from us? Suppose He has created these big universes, what service we can give? By His will, He can create millions of universes. What service we can give? We... No. These are the chances of service, this Ratha-yātrā. God is so great, so big, how we can pack up in the ratha. But this is a chance, that you get Him sit on the ratha and prepare it, manufacture it. Because your energy is engaged for His service, that is accepted. So this example... Just like a small child eating lozenges, and out of that, if he offers father, "Father, take it," and father takes it very serious..., "Ah, very nice." And what is that lozenges to the father? It is nothing. But because the child offers to the father in love, father takes it very seriously: "Oh, you are so nice. Yes, yes, give me." That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "A leaf, a fruit, a little water." What is the value of these? But yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "Because he is giving Me in faith and devotion, I accept it." And what is this one piece of leaf and a fruit for God? It is nothing. He is being served by many thousands of goddess of fortune. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambrahma-sevyamānam. Then what is the value of this leaf and flower and fruit? But still, He says, tad aham aśnāmi: "Yes, I eat them." And once God eats from your hand, then your life is successful.

Madhudviṣa: Sometimes a question is arisen that devotees are working hard to serve Kṛṣṇa, but sometimes they don't feel that they are working in love and devotion. They are doing the work, but sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Yes, in the beginning there is no love. Let him work on the direction of God's representative. (break) Therefore it has been warned, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. The Deity of Viṣṇu, if one thinks, "This is made of stone; this is made of wood; this is made of metal," and spiritual master as ordinary human being, these are hellish considerations. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guruṣu means the spiritual master. Nara-matiḥ, a ordinary human being. And vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. And Vaiṣṇava, a devotee--"Oh, he is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava. He is European Vaiṣṇava. He is this Vaiṣṇava, that..." No. These are forbidden. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava. Spiritual master... They are all transcendental. In... of course, in this country you are introducing new, but in India... Just like we had been at Tirupati, Tirumala. Many thousands of people were coming, and their daily collection is not less than 100,000 rupees. And do you think these people are coming to offer these 100,000 rupees daily to a stone? And the ācāryas established this temple for bluffing these people? Does it mean, their collecting? They do not know the science, rascals. And therefore simply... Sinful life cannot help. Vinā paśughnāt. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "One who is killer of animal, he cannot understand the spiritual science." Vinā paśughnāt. This is the statement. Paśughna means the animal killer. Therefore the first prohibition is stop this animal killing. Otherwise, this dull brain will not be able to understand. They are not fit for understanding. Mūòha, mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ. Duṣkṛtina means always engaged in sinful activities. They have got brain but their brain is being utilized only for sinful activities, they are called duṣkṛtina. Kṛtī, kṛtī means good brain, and duṣkṛtī means brain is being utilized for sinful act. Therefore they are mūòha. In spite of good brain, they are rascals, because brain is being utilized for sinful activities, how to set up up-to-date machinery for killing animals. Brain is being used for this purpose. Any animal can be killed with ordinary knife, but they're manufacturing latest machinery. Their brain, rascal brain is being used for that purpose. And what they will understand? They are preparing their road for going to hell. What they will understand about spiritual matters? Nature will not excuse. That is not possible. (break) That is sufficient for your being killed. Yes, sir. Wherefrom these laws come unless there is God's laws? Everyone will be killed. They are thinking that "We are not going to slaughterhouse to kill. They kill; we purchase." The Buddhist says like that. Everyone says like that. Therefore, according to Vedic scripture, those animal-eaters, they should kill them personally so that they can see how much suffering is there, so he will stop. But now the things are being done in the slaughterhouse. They do not see. They purchase very nicely packed. They do not know. And they are becoming implicated. Therefore, according to Vedic injunction, if you want to eat meat, you kill yourself in your front, in the front of goddess Kālī. So that the animal will get next life as human being. He is promoted immediately. He hasn't got to go to the evolutionary process. He gets immediately. And it is given right that "After you get human form of (life), you can kill this person." You see? This is the process of bali-dāna, mantra and everything. (Break) ...regulation that... that is not cow. An insignificant animal, goat... (end)

 

Room Conversation with Bhūrijana and Disciples                    July 1, 1974, Melbourne                               381725

Prabhupāda: That is sense. Otherwise nonsense, that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said?

Satsvarūpa:

arjuna uvāca

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat-prasādān mayācyuta

sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ

kariṣye vacanaṁ tava

"Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."

Prabhupāda: This is sense.

Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled.

Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate.

Bhūrijana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check?

Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense though, exactly how far your instructions are because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly...

Prabhupāda: You are old student.

Bhūrijana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like that. You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say... (long, silent pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then it is no advance. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ gatiḥ. This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man, no. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha (mahatā)

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost.

Satsvarūpa:

evam paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha mahatā

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa, this word is used.

Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."

Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not affect. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now, last night Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam: "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is Kṛṣṇa-kathā, Kṛṣṇa's. Now sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā: "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good. It is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇava principle. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says, "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa..." He cannot chant. That is a show-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no, Sanātana Gosvāmī says, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than... In other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many others. They could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is... There are so many... Such a big instruction book. It is not that, whimsical. But still, we recommend that "Go on chanting." This will help you anywhere. That is also good. It is exactly like that: if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time. Only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied. "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood will dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied--"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"--that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. You require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. You must get the flame. Otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "Phat, phat, phat." As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it. Let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man... He was a yogi. So he approached. It is not story, it is fact. Approached one big man that... As people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogi, "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga." "So, how long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night or as long as you..." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, overnight, then I shall give you such and such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said, "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not... Either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa? During Kārttika month they... This is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said, "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) That lamp was three miles away and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." What is that? Some presentation?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances.

Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not...?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw. "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense." "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply. So that man was paid. So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way, cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ... So what are these things? (break) ...on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice.

Paramahaṁsa: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney. A scarf for you to wear in the cold.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That's nice.

Paramahaṁsa: And I also brought one from me.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Paramahaṁsa: And some mangoes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good.

Paramahaṁsa: From Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are very difficult to get.

Prabhupāda: Very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya-ca... Two fruits. One fruit is the nim tree fruit. You have seen nim tree? In not your country. Nim tree you have seen in India, and their fruits...

Paramahaṁsa: A little bitter.

Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow they eat that nim tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this nim tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden. There is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere and the crows... You have seen it?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Na tad-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ.

Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore, a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore, Bhagavad-gītā, you will find the first beginning of teaching--dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Find out.

Satsvarūpa:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul in not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. She has also gone, your wife?

Bhūrijana: No, she will come back.

Prabhupāda: We... Our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram, dehina, not the deha, dehi. We are not working on deha. Deha means body. And dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the difference. Therefore it takes very, very, long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body..." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education... They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education?

Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions or nowadays meditation, like that.

Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close. It is closed?

Satsvarūpa: Close the blinds? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed.

Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break)

Satsvarūpa: ...have to strain the juice from this mango?

Prabhupāda: And did you do it?

Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice--first quality rice, second quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bhasmati. I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, "Bahu." "Bahu" means master. "This rice is not suitable for us." That fine bhasmati rice. He did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes: "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. The big animals... (break) ...living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān.

Devotee: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for.

Prabhupāda: No, classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat Kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat Kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, samatā, equality, when one is brahma-bhūta, spiritualized... Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? No, he has gone.

Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him.

Prabhupāda: All right, no, no. No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now?

Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                       Melbourne July 2, 1974                                                            382016

Prabhupāda: I think you missed that verse, jagato ahitāya. Anyway, these are the description of demonic activities. So this is practical. The last two disastrous war was waged only for this industry. This is the cause. German, they are actually in Europe very intelligent and their machine products and other things, they make very nice things. At least, I have got experience, German chemicals are first-class chemical. So they manufacture and British occupied the half of the world in their colonization, whole Africa, and they controlled India and China, Japan, yes, China, Burma, Ceylon, Australia. So these poor people, they manufactured. They have got goods enough; where to sell? As soon as they go to the British territories, "No, you cannot sell. If you want to sell, then hundred percent duty." So price increase. This was the grudge. Everyone knows. This is the cause of two wars. The jagato ahita. Now, why so much? You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor. "No. Produce millions of scissor." Then where is market, sir? This is going on. Produce millions of TV machine. Simple they are used for wasting time. One or two or five made for some important business. Now they are producing millions of sets. They must sell. And people are induced to purchase. And as soon as they purchase, they simply see television. Idol worship. And learning vicious things. Some unnecessary picture is produced there. They like to see it. Two train are coming and they are smashed. (laughs) I have seen some television. People are learning how to smash, how to steal, how to harass people. Things are being shown like that. Not that "You are soul. You are spirit soul. If you degrade yourself, you then get this." You make that television, that how transmigration of the soul is taking place. They have manufactured the machine, so utilize for your propaganda. We have got to do so many things. We can utilize everything. So if they are not used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose they'll be used for committing disaster in the world. Just like the atomic bomb. They are meant for creating disaster, that's all. What else they can do? And now everyone is having atomic weapon, just like India has now got. That means they are preparing, by nature's course they are preparing for war, and "I put my atomic bomb on your head, and you put on my head. You die, I die, that's all." They simply die. Now what was the result of the disastrous war twice? The whole European nations ruined. They are not no more rich. I saw in Paris, in Germany. They are not as rich as the Americans. Because American inland, there was no such big war, so their opulence is existing, but on account of these two wars, British completely finished. Yes. British completely. It is now... Hitler wanted that "I shall again make these English people a fisherman's island. They have to take their business to fishing only." (laughter) That was Hitler's declaration.

Madhudviṣa: That has happened.

Prabhupāda: That has happened.

Madhudviṣa: They are fishing all over the world, trying to get some oil, trying to get some steel, how to get some grain.

Cāru: They only work two days in a week now in England.

Madhudviṣa: That's finished now. During the petrol shortage they had to cut themselves down to two days a week.

Prabhupāda: Now they have got Australia. Australia is English possession?

Madhudviṣa: No.

Prabhupāda: No, no more.

Cāru: Not any more.

Prabhupāda: But I know, all educated and advanced educated Englishmen, they were coming to Australia for good job. Therefore most of the technical posts, they are occupied by Indians in London. As soon as one is highly qualified medical man, he comes to Australia. So who will take care of them? So therefore they imported some brain from India. Anyway, our time should be saved for self-realization. That is perfect civilization. And not for creating unnecessary necessity of life. That will increase problem. So scientists, they disagreed or agreed with us?

Madhudviṣa: They did not want to get... They did not want to...

Prabhupāda: But they could not answer "Who is the manufacturer of the brain of the scientist?" That they could not.

Madhudviṣa: You have said in one of your tapes, "They want to start half way." Like they say, "All of a sudden there is an aeroplane, appeared in the sky." They do not trace out where that aeroplane is coming from. So similarly, they are interested in the problems of today, but they do not want to delve into the essential problem. They are talking about building nice houses, using this, that. They do not want to delve into...

Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say, "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ. As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā: "There is an energy which can create, maintain, and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā, one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy... Just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic... No. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly this big energy--creation, maintenance, and destruction of nature--that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or Durgā means... Durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

What is the use of...? Why should we go to research? Everything is there. Our position is very safe. We get the perfect knowledge without wasting our time. We take from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finish. We know everything. Just like so many scientists, so many psychology, psychiatrist, and religionist, they come to me, but I am neither of them. I never was a scientist nor I am a psychologist nor a psychiatrist nor this or that. But I speak on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā; I defeat them. It is practical. So many people came to me but nobody went unharmed. Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Digvijāya.

Prabhupāda: Because we are getting perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation with Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) Scientists                          July 2, 1974, Melbourne                                                                                                                                  381786

Devotee: Dr. Harrap.

Dr. Harrap: How do you do.

Dr. Muncing(?): And Dr. Muncing.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse... You have got first part?

Devotee: First part.

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.

Satsvarūpa: Idam?

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ.

Satsvarūpa:

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam

Prabhupāda: Hm. Read.

Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Satsvarūpa: (reads entire purport S.B. 1.5.22)

Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection.

Dr. Harrap: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world but we don't seem to have got their life qualities, good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this.

Dr. Muncing: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: They can record it?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, why not?

Dr. Harrap: (aside:) This stand's quite a complicated contraption here. It makes (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this.

Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19.)

Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it?

Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his...

Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57)

Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background.

Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist?

Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the...

Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and...

Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America.

Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are?

Madhudviṣa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers...

Prabhupāda: We have got forty centers in America.

Dr. Harrap: Forty.

Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes.

Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests.

Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge.

Dr. Harrap: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes.

Guest (2): We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholestrol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you?

Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful.

Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter...

Dr. Muncing: The milkfat and...

Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat.

Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? How it is harmful? If it is harmful why you are giving milk to the child?

Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two per cent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different from the milk that we get from the non-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants.

Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, "Miracles of Milk," written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so, has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholestrol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholestrol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to, among many in the medical profession to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter?

Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way by a special feeding techniques to the cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk because you find in this book that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk is important, not other animal's milk.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk?

Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk.

Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholestrol. (laughter) Cholestrol is no problem for you.

Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak... Yes, you know him? One of our staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk.

Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa Book?

Cāru:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

"Translation: Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others..."

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa... We are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture.

Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and...

Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely.

Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity.

Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.

Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits. Yes.

Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncing has taken the lead in C.S.R.O. in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat.

Dr. Muncing: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past.

Madhudviṣa: He wants... He would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world and what Australia can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science as well as general living.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries... The population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the over-populated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we have the statement--find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.

 

 

Cāru:                                                              

 

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

"Translation: All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajïa, sacrifice, and yajïa is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps plowing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors, what is called? Tractor?

Madhudviṣa: Cultivators.

Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation. And the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labor and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop.

Dr. Muncing: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area... The area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards.

Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain because the terrain is just not suited to the grain growing.

Prabhupāda: The land is not suitable?

Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts and semi-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural, the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... There's people that don't have the essentials and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?

Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our, this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.

Dr. Muncing: I think I disagree with that.

Dr. Harrap: I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community.

Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes.

Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?

Guests: Yes, yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.

Dr. Muncing: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition?

Dr. Muncing: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency...

Prabhupāda: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?

Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the...

Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.

Dr. Muncing: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present.

Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweet ball?

Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now.

Prabhupāda: You go and find out.

Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that, what we call a gouda cheese which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries.

Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. People... A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk, sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food.

Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brāhmaṇa, that is also mentioned there in the śāstra. So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Paṇòita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married. Your government has approved our society that we can...

Madhudviṣa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.

Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell...

Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn't be here.

Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.

Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some...

Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first.

Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brāhmaṇa friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?

Prabhupāda: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... You have got the first part of Bhāgavatam?

Cāru: Yes, right here.

Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra?

Satsvarūpa: That's in three I think.

Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra. So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptom of nuclear weapon... Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho. That is...

Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume.

Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock."

Madhudviṣa: We have them but we do not have them here.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Here are people coming, gentlemen coming.

Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's...

Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this," no. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇòitāḥ sama darśinaḥ. Find out this verse.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

Cāru:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."

Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ.

Cāru: Ahaìkāra vimūòhā.

Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. Find out this verse.

Cāru:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaìkāra vimūòhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tathā dehāntara prāpti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact.

Guest (2): Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?

Madhudviṣa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk.

Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes.

Guest (2): Oh, thank you.

Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a sweet preparation called gulab jamin. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It's called a gulab jamin. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafoetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely.

Prabhupāda: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat.

Madhudviṣa: Protein.

Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein.

Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk.

Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar...

Madhudviṣa: Syrup.

Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India?

Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take it. It is very nice.

Guest (2): You mean to eat it now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just...

Madhudviṣa: I can give you another.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like we shall give you more.

Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though.

Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it.

Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this we can send you many things. (laughter)

Dr. Muncing: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family.

Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but... (laughter)

Dr. Muncing: It's very good.

Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more?

Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home?

Madhudviṣa: Oh yes.

Dr. Muncing: Well, this has been most interesting.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research.

Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.

Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajïa. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.

Guest (2): Well, thank you...

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              July 9, 1974, Los Angeles                                                           382058

Prabhupāda: Now if they say that the killing means murdering, that means the people amongst whom Christ was preaching, they were accustomed to kill men. So what class of men they were? What was the society? A society of murderers. So what they will understand about religion, a murderer? (pause) So go further or return?

Jayatīrtha: We should probably turn around now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) If you're preaching honesty to a thief, you have to be careful that he's not stealing your watch in the meantime.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: If you're preaching honesty to a thief, he may steal your watch. So Jesus was trying to teach religion to murderers, so they murdered him.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. (aside:) Don't come very near. If you advise rascals, they'll be angry. No good result. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye, payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaìgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. So we have to become very strong preacher. Then this movement will stay. If you simply take the temple worship, it will not stay very long. Just like...

Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach.

Prabhupāda: And leaders means... If the leaders are good, then it will continue.

Bali Mardana: If they are not preaching, they are not leaders. They are bogus. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Leaders means they should behave in such a way so that by following them, others will be benefitted. That is leader.

Guru-kṛpa: Look out.

Jayatīrtha: Look out. Oh, the ocean is coming.

Prabhupāda: Our Juhu Beach is better than... Best in the world. You have not seen?

Jayatīrtha: I was there. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's very beautiful.

Gurukrpa: What do you think of Jagannātha Purī Beach?

Prabhupāda: No, not so nice.

Guru-kṛpa: Not so nice?

Prabhupāda: Juhu Beach is very nice. You can go up to one mile, so much water.

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Up to the knee.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Just up to the knee?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the waves are not so ferocious. It is coming. And the whole thing is clean, whole beach. Yes. And it is ten miles long. Therefore so many foreigners' hotels are there. (japa) (pause) When I was last here, Los Angeles, which chapter I was reading? Who knows? Which chapter of Bhāgavata I was reading?

Guru-kṛpa: Fifth?

Sudāmā: The last time he was here?

Jayatīrtha: In Los Angeles you were reading in the Third Volume of the First Canto. I believe it was about...

Hṛdayānanda: About Arjuna, how Arjuna left the earth, how the Pāṇòavas retired.

Jayatīrtha: Ah, Pāṇòavas Retire, yes.

Prabhupāda: So from there we shall begin again. (japa) (long pause) If the people refuse to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll never be happy. This is a fact. (pause) But if you present properly, they will take. That is a fact. The other day in San Francisco, there were about twelve to fifteen thousand men. They were hearing so patiently. They also applauded. And many came to my car, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." Said like that.

Bali Mardana: I've never seen so many young Americans sit for, listen to the lecture so attentively.

Prabhupāda: And religious, most dry subject. Not cinema.

Bali Mardana: The newspaper said that it was the most favorite festival of all San Francisco, of all the festivals.

Prabhupāda: So they have mentioned, "American Hindus." (chuckles) (pause) It is a dead blow to the material civilization: "No drinking and no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling, no illicit sex." Their whole civilization is finished. Because they stand on these things, four pillars.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They have no other...

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Therefore we must present a better civilization.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: We must present a better civilization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not better or best. The civilization. Everything is all false, cheating. Everything, everything is cheating. Without this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all other consciousness, they're simply cheating. That is called māyā, illusion. If you remain in any other consciousness except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means you are in illusion. You are misguided. That is explained in the second verse of the First Canto. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstava vastu vedyam atra: All kinds of cheating religious system is kicked out." That is the second verse. Projjhita, completely cleansed of all cheating type of religion. This, this has been translated into Bengali by these words,

pṛthivīte yāha kichu dharma nāme cale

bhāgavata kāhe taha paripūrṇa chale

Whatever is going on throughout the whole world in the name of religion, Bhāgavata, according to Bhāgavata, they're all cheating. They're all cheating. Bhāgavata kāhe taha paripūrṇa chale. Chale means cheating.

Jayatīrtha: What exactly is the definition of a cheat?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: What is the definition of a cheat?

Prabhupāda: Cheat means that I am exploiting you. I am saying that I am creating you a religious, but you are most sinful. I am creating a most sinful. That is cheating.

Guru-kṛpa: Giving something under false pretensions.

Prabhupāda: That's all. You are taking something else while thinking something else. That is cheating. Actually, we see the so-called religious system... Religion means to become lover of God. But who is lover of God? Do not know what is God, and what to speak of love Him. They do not know, have no clear conception of God even.

Jayatīrtha: They are lovers of dog.

Prabhupāda: And actually they are lovers of dog. And still, he's professing "I am religious." This is not cheating.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, it's cheating. Imposter.

Prabhupāda: Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Unless one becomes a devotee of God, there is no question of religion. It is all cheating. By opening hospital, schools,... There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, the hospitals and schools are being opened, philanthropy. What is the result?

Bali Mardana: Atom bombs.

Prabhupāda: Atom bomb. Result is atom bomb.

Hṛdayānanda: You're the only one, Prabhupāda, who dares to criticize hospitals and schools. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes, so many people came to request me... Even Dr. Ghosh. Eh? You know.

Satsvarūpa: He wanted you to open a medical dispensary.

Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are not going to waste our time in that way." I frankly told him. We have no extra time to waste like that. What he thinks very big project, we say it is waste of time. (laughter)

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. It is a completely revolutionary idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I cannot allow anyone he's waste his valuable time of human life.

Guru-kṛpa: You said before that the more hospitals they open that means the more people have to become sick.

Prabhupāda: That, more... Yes.

Guru-kṛpa: To get in the hospital.

Prabhupāda: They are very much proud, "We have opened fifty hospitals." That means fifty thousand people have become sick. "We have increased so many beds." That means so many people have more increased their disease. But they're proud of doing this. Our poor-feeding and their poor-feeding is different. We give prasādam--by eating he'll become Kṛṣṇaized. He'll become a devotee. And ordinary eating means he will eat and go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa (japa) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau...

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Jayatīrtha: Jāyate. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Morning Walk                            Los Angeles, July 11, 1974  ( July 12 on Folio)                                           382142

Prabhupāda: This Darwin is a rascal. He cannot... He has taken some idea from this Padma Purāṇa, and he has developed in a befooling way. There are different types of human beings, four hundred thousand species. (pause) (break) ...is to conquer over the stringent laws of nature. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No? What is the purpose of scientific research?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: To conquer over the laws of nature.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it not? The laws of nature is already powerful. So you have not conquered over the laws of nature. Then how science is powerful?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You cannot conquer the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science cannot conquer the laws of nature. That is why they try to think only about the body, the bodily concept. To give them comfort to the body by...

Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. That's all. Everything ending in sense gratification. That's all. (japa)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's like it is a fashion to try to violate the laws of nature. It is becoming very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is childish. That a child says, "No, no." Mother says, "Sit down." "No, no." (laughter) One! "Ahhhh." (laughter) Mother is the nature, and child is trying to violate the orders of mother. This is the position. So who will take them very seriously?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they suffer the result.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffer is suffered(?). Tayā sammohito jīva ātmānam tri-guṇātmakam. Yayā sammohito... There is a verse. Yaya sammohito jīva ātmanam tri-guṇātmakam, manute anartham...

Satsvarūpa: The car is this way.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Harer nāma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The result of this violation of the laws of nature is that...

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot violate. That is not possible. There is no question of violating. Simply childish attempt. That's all. You cannot violate it. That is not possible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are... They are planning to make a... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is childish. That is childish. "They are planning." That is childish. Although they are being repeatedly baffled, still trying. This is childish.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have already timetable worked out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That in two thousand years they are going to make...

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he'll not live for two thousand years. Then the bluff cannot be shown. Violation is not possible, sir. That is not possible. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. You are trying to violate, but here are the four principles. It is not possible. You cannot violate. There is death; you cannot violate this. As soon as the time will come, you must die. Finished, all your scientific research. Four millions, trillions, and you can say, at that time there was no civilized man. At that time man was dying and animal was dying. And at this time man is dying and animal is dying. So what improvement you have made? There is no improvement.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is also called tampering.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tampering with the machinery of God. They try to manipulate in a different way so that they can get some deviation from the normal.

Prabhupāda: There is no deviation. (Śrīla Prabhupāda apparently gets into car.)

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              July 13, 1974, Los Angeles                                                         382257

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk, recorded July 10, 1974 in Venice Beach. (break) Testing 1,2,3. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Testing 1,2,3. Testing 1,2,3. (break) Testing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Morning Walk, July 13, 1974, in Marina del Rey. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...have discrimination because the British government, they think that the Ratha-yatra is becoming very popular.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the... It is actually rational discrimination. The Christians, they thought, "Now these Englishmen, they'll make Hindu religion very prominent." Because it is a fact. If we introduce such three-four celebrations, then Christianity will be finished. But what is there? Christianity, there is nothing. Simply some dry words. And actually, they're seeing, nobody's coming to the church. So in this way, if they some, relish something better, then whatever is there, that will be finished, also. Therefore in London we wanted to purchase a church.

Bali Mardana: A big cathedral.

Prabhupāda: Ah. And they said, "We shall burn it down; still, we shall not give to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They said like that.

Bahulāśva: Rascals.

Prabhupāda: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent.

Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their...

Prabhupāda: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen?

Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see.

Prabhupāda: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes.

Bali Mardana: In New York also, we have to do negotiations very secretly because if they find out, they would not want to sell to us. They would be afraid.

Prabhupāda: Oh, New York, there was Ratha-yatra?

Bali Mardana: No, no. For purchasing the church.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bali Mardana: They're also afraid that we will take over.

Prabhupāda: But that is not yet finished.

Bali Mardana: Well, it is going on now. The one building is finished. Other building is still... Until we are living there...

Prabhupāda: That, one Japanese gentleman wrote in a paper that "This Movement, as it growing fast, within ten years the whole world will become Hindu ."

Bali Mardana: Jaya. (laughter) (break)

Prabhupāda: So even it is as it is, they may take in palanquin, but there must be a protest meeting continuously. Protest meeting and the Indians should approach the Ambassador that, "Represent our case to the Queen that Hindus are being harassed." This should be organized.

Bali Mardana: And also newspaper.

Prabhupāda: Also newspaper. There must be...

Bali Mardana: They can make advertisements in the newspaper.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That "On certain plea only, they have stopped our most important ceremony." In this way agitation must go on. And our men, those who took part in political agitation, they should go there and speak everywhere, that "It is religious discrimination."

Bali Mardana: They should have a protest meeting in front of the Parliament building, with signs.

Prabhupāda: Protest meeting must be there. How to organize? At least, a protest meeting should be done in such a way that the whole world may know that the British Government stopped the yearly Ratha-yatra ceremony of the Hindus. That should be organized. What can be done? You are not very strong GBC's. There must be vehement protest meeting.

Bali Mardana: They can protest in front of Downing Street, in front of the Prime Minister's residence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, protest meeting, go on, organize. Go, all of you. What is the talking here? They have seen that the movement is growing more important. So this is discrimination. In England the Church is very strong. They have organized like this. You quote the publication, "There is no alarm." Of course, it is on the plea of police protest, police objection. The police objection means one's religious ceremony should be stopped? What is this? Simply for some technical mistake, now they can warn that "You must do it. Otherwise it will be stopped." How is that? No. That means this is police government? Does it mean it is police government?

Bali Mardana: Police state.

Prabhupāda: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahādeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on.

Bali Mardana: They could even have been paid off.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali Mardana: Perhaps they were also paid off to stop it.

Prabhupāda: Paid off or not paid off, it doesn't matter. But actually it is stopped. And if we simply cede, then there is no future hope of this movement. Better, in spite of their "No" order, we shall take the...

Bali Mardana: Take the ratha there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: Take it anyway?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And let them be arrested. That is the real thing.

Bali Mardana: That is better.

Prabhupāda: So you go all there, and perform this.

Bahulāśva: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Make the ratha as it is and keep it on the Hyde Park. Don't move it, and hold meeting. Don't go the Trafalgar Square, but organize huge meeting there. Don't move it. "Under protest, we are not moving, but this is discrimination." Organize like that. Have the ratha standing there. Unless the order is given. And go on holding meeting. That will be the right answer.

Bali Mardana: They can bring the ratha in on a big truck.

Prabhupāda: Ratha, we start from the Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square. So the ratha must be there. We'll not move. And simply hold meeting, unless the order is given. This is the right course.

Brahmānanda: They should have a meeting until the order is given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Until the order is given, we shall hold meeting here. Daily." And tell them that "It is, it is police government. Then we should, we should give up British connection." Agitate government that "It has become a police government." Best course will be like that, that "As usual, we shall keep the ratha there. We are not moving." And hold on, go on protest meeting, doing. And keep them there. Let them arrest and go to jail. That is the real effort. (pause) Or one thing do... Satī sārthaṁ samācaret. Therefore I wanted to start this politics. There say, "It is, it is our custom. Unless the ratha is there, there is no ceremony. So you have asked to palanquin. We shall make the ratha here, standing. And after holding our ceremony we shall take the Deity in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square. And go to the Trafalgar Square and hold meeting there. But the ratha must be there. It will not move. It will stand here. We shall take the Deities in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square." In this way, take police permission, and after going there, along with the ceremony, protest.

Brahmānanda: In Trafalgar Square.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Trafalgar Square.

Bali Mardana: They cannot object if the ratha is not moving.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. That "You, objection... Our ratha will not move. It will simply stand there. The Deity will go in palanquin to Trafalgar Square and come back." They cannot object. But the ratha must be seen. And people must know that the rascal police government has stopped it. Go, everyone, and do it. The ratha must be exhibited, even though it does not move. And the Deity will be moving in palanquin. And come back again to the ratha. Is that all right?

Bali Mardana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Can you execute all this?

Bali Mardana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do it. Ratha-yatra ratha is there, but the police did not allow to move. That's all right. We shall not move. The Deities, three palanquins, taken together, procession will go to the Trafalgar... That is, that is allowed. But the ratha must be exhibited. It will not move. So what is their objection. If the ratha stands in the same place, without movement, then they cannot have any objection. As they have passed, the Deities will move, and we'll come back again. Is it any... Eh? What objection can...?

Bali Mardana: That is approved for the route?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, they can walk with the palanquins over the route, to Trafalgar Square.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.

Bali Mardana: That's approved?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Ratha will not move. Then when we will get sanction, it will move. And for the sanction we must go on protesting. If you can take these steps, then do it. Otherwise, sleep. (break) ...with Haṁsadūta.

Bali Mardana: I can talk to him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Talk with clear brain. The idea is given. (break) ...be able to do it alone, or we shall go. Or even if he does not say, you go and all organize. It is very important thing. And things are going not right there, and you shall sleep here. That is not good.

Bali Mardana: So shall we also make protests?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all organize this. Then we shall protest.

Bali Mardana: Protest at the meeting.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Don't say about protesting now.

Bali Mardana: Now.

Prabhupāda: Take this, tactfully, that "All right, our ratha will not move. But this is our ceremony. The ratha will stand there."

Bali Mardana: So they should get written permission for the ratha to stand there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Ratha will stand, will not move, unless you sanction. But it is the, one of the part of the ceremony. There must be ratha. How you can stop it?" And from the ratha the palanquin will go to the Trafalgar Square. As usual, we hold our ceremonies and come back. So what is the objection? And if they say, "No, you cannot even keep the ratha," that means there is conspiracy.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That means there is conspiracy. So we should be politicians also (break) ...somebody protested that "Your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement makes the people dull." And now, you have not seen the Vaiṣṇava. There was two fight in the Indian history. One is Rāma and Rāvaṇa, and one is Kurukṣetra. And the hero is Vaiṣṇava. We are going to produce such Vaiṣṇavas, not these dull rascals, sitting down. We don't want these Vaiṣṇavas, sitting down rascals. We want Arjuna or we want no one. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is wanted.

Jayatīrtha: It's time to go back. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...that if we remain rascals, then that Gaurasundara's example will be followed. One day you'll again become crazy and close up everything and smoke. That's all. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, prāṇa arthe yaìra sei hetu pracāra. "One who has got life, he can preach." The dead man cannot preach. So you become with life, not like dead man. Without life... Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement.

Bahulāśva: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Now, I have given the solution. The ratha must be there. It may not move. That is another thing. It will stand. The Deity will move on palanquin accordingly. Take this sanction. And then, coming back, hold big meeting, protest meeting. Ratha must be there. It will not move. The movement will be by palanquin. I think... I don't think there is any difficulty. How there can be any objection? Reasonably? There cannot be any objection. Let the ratha stand there, and the Deity moves according to your sanction... What objection can be there?

Jayatīrtha: Unless there's a conspiracy, there should be no objection.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That will disclose their conspiracy. "We abide by your order that without your order our ratha will not move, go to the Trafalgar... That's all right. You have allowed palanquin. That's accepted." Do like that, tactfully. First of all, take the sanction. In America, in... They have appreciated. That Reverend Powell. No, there is no objection anywhere. Why this rascal, falling-down nation, British, they're objecting? Apāt-kāle viparīta-buddhi. They are falling down, they will commit offense and discrepancies more and more so that they will be nowhere. I think after this Queen, this monarchy there, the so-called monarchy will be also finished. Because her son, her husband, both of them are hippies. The Queen's husband and Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, both of them are hippies. So this monarchy will be also finished. (pause) What that Mahādeva is doing there in Africa?

Brahmānanda: He's not doing very well.

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal, and he was given in charge. Another rascal, Śyāmasundara. What he's doing, sitting and..., only?

Brahmānanda: Just sitting and writing things that cannot be understood.

Prabhupāda: Writing where?

Brahmānanda: In the temple.

Prabhupāda: And the other?

Brahmānanda: He's doing all right.

Prabhupāda: Let him stay there. Don't allow him to come out. Yes.

Brahmānanda: He was planning to leave any day.

Prabhupāda: No, he cannot go. Then we shall charge you all theft charges.

Brahmānanda: Which?

Prabhupāda: Theft charges. He's, he stolen money, and he has stolen something in Bombay also.

Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda, they still have so many debts from last year.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: They still owe money for last year's festival, so many thousands.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is... And even somehow or other, he goes out, then he should not be allowed strictly either in our, this temple or that temple.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let him go to hell.

Brahmānanda: Actually, he was planning to see Revatīnandana Swami.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: He was planning to go and visit Revatīnandana.

Prabhupāda: Now, the Revatīnandana and this man and Śyāmasundara is making a clique. I can understand. What they are planning, that also I know. But I don't wish to disclose it. So if these things come, then how this movement will go on? Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the western countries.

Jayatīrtha: Sitting?

Prabhupāda: Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating. These things are the general qualification of the western people. Do you admit or not?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If they are, these things come within our movement, then it will not be successful. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. One has to become purified. Even sometimes we have to take... But that is for Kṛṣṇa's. There must be now checking that all these rascals may not join and spoil the movement. You should not admit.

Bali Mardana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They can come and go.

Bali Mardana: We should not make a haven for rascals.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually.

Bali Mardana: Yes. Just like in the San Francisco paper they admitted, "This is the most popular festival."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. San Francisco also. Fifteen thousand people attended my lecture silently. So they are seeing now there is something in this movement, and if this movement, it is allowed to go on without any objection, then Christianity will be finished. That is the conspiracy behind it. That lecture is recorded? The, which I gave in the, that society of the priests and...

Satsvarūpa: The fathers?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, I...

Prabhupāda: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurāri, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness.

Brahmānanda: You told me that when I came from Pakistan to India. I was complaining how difficult it was, but you said that a businessman makes profit in any circumstances.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is business. They are... Police has no eyes to see that the Bala-Krishna (Guru Maharaji) is regularly cheating. Any man can understand.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no stoppage of that... Yes. And here, stoppage. Just see. It is clear conspiracy. It is not that police. Police cannot be so powerful that he can stop. If there was any discrepancy, why did not they take step that "You have done... You have violated the rules." They should have prosecuted us. Now, without saying anything at that time, now want to stop it.

Jayatīrtha: It's just their tactic.

Prabhupāda: It is tactic. They're factually seeing that "These people, they have brought some Jagannātha and thousands of people following it. And nobody's coming to our church?" It is very common sense thing. The church is being closed. And all the young men, they are joining. Not old men, old fools. No. All young, flourishing, young men are joining. So they want to stop it now. (pause) Take it. (break)

Madhukānta: ...regard, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we are making counter-propaganda against māyā, and that māyā will make propaganda very strong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhukānta: So we must become very sincere devotees or...

Prabhupāda: Unless we are very sincere, we cannot cope with māyā. That is not possible. If you remain a servant of māyā, you cannot conquer over māyā. You must be very sincere servant of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can conquer. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. It is clearly said. Otherwise you are subjected to the tricks of māyā.

Bahulāśva: Unless one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Then you can get rid of māyā's tricks. Otherwise, you may dress yourself like anything, but you are simply māyā's servant. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has sung one... Ei ota kalir chelā: "Here is another disciple of Kali." Nake tilaka galai mālā. "He has got tilaka on the nose and mālā, kaṇṭhi, also." Sahaja bhajana kache mamu saìge lana pare bhalo: "And he's, he has become a Vaiṣṇava by illicit sex." This is stated by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. "Here is a Kali's chelā. He has dressed like a Vaiṣṇava, but he is doing his bhajan with illicit sex." Sahaje bhajana kache mamu saìge lana pare bhalo. You know? There is a class of sahajiyās?

Bali Mardana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇavas. Just like, dress like Rūpa Gosvāmī, loincloth, and, but three dozen women behind him.

Bali Mardana: Yes, gopīs.

Prabhupāda: So Bhaktivinoda Öhākura: "Here is a disciple of Kali. He has tilaka and he has kunti and he's doing this nonsense." Eita kalir chela. (pause)

Bahulāśva: So the purport is that one must strictly follow the principles?

Prabhupāda: You do not understand that?

Bahulāśva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You are asking after twelve thousand years? I am speaking always that. And still you are questioning?

Bali Mardana: Should I call immediately or wait till after class?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali Mardana: Should I call Haṁsadūta immediately or wait until after class?

Prabhupāda: That is, you use your discrimination. What I can say?

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end)

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is natural mattress, and there is a natural pillow, so why should you manufacture pillow and mattress? This is Sukadeva Gosvāmī. And there is natural food, fruits. So... And if you want still nice home, go to the cave. It is already made. Why should you waste your time? This is the Bhāgavata philosophy.

 

Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone…We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy…God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things.

 

So the rājarṣis, they would take instruction from superior authority, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, and they will accordingly rule over. And the vaiśyas would produce food grains sufficiently and milk sufficiently. People would eat very nicely, and they keep their health fit and save time for understanding his relationship with God. That is perfect civilization.

 

In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently.

 

Therefore real civilization is that minimize work. Minimize work, save time, and go back to your spiritual life. That is civilization.

 

…To minimize this material work means the energy should be employed for Kṛṣṇa. Minimize work this, means this side, material side. And save time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the principle.

 

If you study the whole Bhagavad-gītā, where is any word there which you can refute or which is not good for you? Study whole Bhagavad-gītā. All practical and very congenial for human civilization.

 

First thing, you require to eat. So Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient grain, food grain, so that both the animal and the man, they will eat and become robust, stout, and strong. And they will be capable of working. So that is the first thing. But who is producing food grains?

The instruction is there. Just like Bhagavad-gītā says, "Produce food grain." The remedy is there. But you will not produce food grain; you will produce motorcar. Then you must suffer.

 

But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive.

 

Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali-yuga, in this Kali-yuga?

Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take?

 

Yes, I am still brave. (laughter) Otherwise how could I come alone to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I am still brave.

 

Some astrologer told that "This boy, for executing his purpose, he will enter into the fire." Yes.

 

And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea...

 

…in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

 

Any problem you propose, there is solution in the Bhagavad-gītā… This is instruction, that "You produce food grain." …You have to produce food grain…The solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. He said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said, "By motor tire bhavanti bhūtāni." Bhavanti means flourish. Everyone is engaged in producing motor tire, car, and they are flattering the Arabians for petrol. The same energy, if it would have been engaged in producing food grain, then where is the poverty?

 

Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right.

 

You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant?

 

The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together.

 

Realize the Supreme, that is the first and foremost aim, but at the same time, to keep the whole human society in perfect happiness, according to the direction of God. Just like I told you that Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you want to keep the living entities, both men and animal, you must arrange for their nice fooding. Who can deny this philosophy?

 

And here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that?

 

Therefore this matter was entrusted to the brāhmaṇa to give direction. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇaḥ: "One who knows the Supreme, he is brāhmaṇa." And he takes advice and gives others direction.

 

Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra. You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our first religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME ELEVEN

Morning Walk                                               February 3, 1975, Hawaii                                                          382692

Rāmeśvara: I have heard there is a philosophy here amongst some of the devotees that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can go back to the spiritual world even if you do not give up your independence.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: Many devotees who have moved outside of the temple are feeling that if they just continue to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they can go back to the spiritual world, but they are not giving up their independence.

Prabhupāda: So? What is your philosophy?

Rāmeśvara: Well, it seems somewhat hypocritical because chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa means you are praying to Kṛṣṇa to please be engaged eternally in His service and to become completely dependent on Him. So we try to explain like that. And to follow all the teachings and instructions, attending maìgala āratik and morning and evening class.

Prabhupāda: So they are doing that or not?

Guru-kṛpa: No. They are not even following regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Rāmeśvara: They think just by chanting, they will go back to the spiritual world. That is enough.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of the ten kinds of offenses? If he is chanting without offense, then it is all right, but if he is committing offenses, it will not be effective. There are ten kinds of offenses. Whether he is strictly offenseless? Then it is all right. If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted. (aside:) Don't come very near. That's it. So they are committing offenses, so how they can become perfect? He is committing not following the rules and regulation. That means he is thinking that "Whatever I do, it will be adjusted by chanting the name." Is it not?

Guru-kṛpa: Yes. That's one of the offenses.

Rāmeśvara: That is their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy. That is the greatest offense, nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ, that "I can go on committing sinful activity, but by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, it will be adjusted." That is the greatest offense. So explain to them.

Guru-kṛpa: So they say, "Then my chanting is useless? So I should stop?" That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: No, not useless. But just like if you kindle fire and at the same time pour water, it will take long time. To kindle fire, make it dry, keep it dry. Then it will be very quickly successful. So you are committing offenses, at the same time chanting, so by chanting effect, you will come to that stage, but it will take time. If you want to be transferred to the spiritual world quickly, just like if you want to ignite the fire very quickly, you must keep it dry. If you simply put on the wet wood, then the fire will not be very powerful. It will be... It will take time. The fire will be blazing fire. Then it will dry. It will take... Better put dry wood to make it successful. This is the process. The effect of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa will not go in vain, but it will take time. Nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. Because he is thinking "By the strength of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, I can do anything, all sinful activities, and it will be adjusted," that is the greatest offense, not only offense, the greatest offense. Nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ.

Siddha-svarūpa: It is very difficult to put everyone who is living outside of the temple in one category. Some people, they are, many people that I know living outside are following strictly the regulative principles, and they are...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Siddha-svarūpa: They are strictly following regulative principles and chanting their rounds and having morning āratik in their homes. And evening also, they are chanting. So instead of fighting, I think we should only try to encourage everybody to chant and follow the regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: No, that is... Whether you live in temple or outside temple, the rules and regulation and the process must be followed. Then you are successful. It doesn't matter that you have to live in the temple. Gṛhe thāko vane thāko, 'hā gaurāìga' bo'le òāko. Not that everyone has to live in the temple. If he does not agree with other Godbrothers, friends, he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation. That is wanted. But if you live with devotees, it will be automatically done.

Siddha-svarūpa: Easy.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is recommended that you live with devotees. But if you cannot agree with the devotees, you have got your own opinion, then you cannot make a new opinion so far the process is concerned. That must be followed. This is not good idea, that "Whatever I do, it is my independence, and I will chant." So that is good in sense that some day he will come to senses. Otherwise, for the time being, the chant is not very powerful. The fire in wet wood is not powerful. It will create some smoke. Although the fire is there. But if you put dry wood, immediately it will be blazing, and your business will be quickly done. This is intelligence. There are many examples. A patient suffering from disease, a doctor said, "You should do; you should not do." So if we follow "You should not do," then it becomes quickly recovered. But if he becomes under the treatment of the doctor at the same time he does all nonsense, then how it can be successful? It will take time. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya pracūra. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya... Offenseless chanting is the ultimate goal. In the beginning we are not offenseless, but by chanting, chanting, by practice, we gradually become offenseless. But this is necessary, that you should be offenseless.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to control my mind when I chant. It wanders.

Prabhupāda: So what is the controlling of mind? You have to chant and hear, that's all. You have to chant with your tongue, and the sound you hear, that's all. What is the question of mind?

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems unfortunate that if the devotees cannot live in the temples, then they have to work for some karmi just to support themselves, and then they do not have time to go on the saìkīrtana party. So it is such mercy to be on the saìkīrtana party. So it seems very unfortunate that they do not have the time.

Prabhupāda: No, then they should live in the temple if they want to give service in the saìkīrtana party.

Rāmeśvara: We always try to encourage them to come back to the temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he does not join the saìkīrtana party, that does not mean his spiritual life is hampered. He has to follow the rules and regulation. He may not be able to join the saìkīrtana party, but he must follow the process, rules and regulation. That is wanted. And because he is living outside the temple, therefore he will forget all rules and regulation and do whatever he likes--then it will ruin the whole thing.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it faster if one lives in the temple and goes on the saìkīrtana party. Is it faster?

Prabhupāda: That depends on him. Even in the temple, if his mind is in a different subject matter, then how it will help him?

Bali Mardana: The temple authorities like to preach that anyone who's living outside the temple is going to hell.

Prabhupāda: Generally.

Bali Mardana: But even devotees who are following. They like to preach that.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not. That is not. Just like even in ordinary business, if you transact business in the stock association, you get good business. And outside the stock association you don't get. Because association is there, there are many purchaser and many seller. So if you have to sell, you get immediate purchaser. And if you have to purchase, there is immediate seller. That is... Therefore the stock exchange is there. That is the way, that if we live together in the stock exchange of devotional service, then you can help me; I can help you. So our business will go on nicely. And outside the market, you can live three hundred miles away from the stock exchange. You will not get so many business. Like that.

Devotee (2): You'll miss the opportunities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is helpful. If you want to do business, you must take the first opportunity, the greatest opportunity, do your business. That is intelligence. And if we think, "All right, I shall do slowly. In seven hundred lives I shall become perfect," that is another thing.

Bali Mardana: It is riskier to stay outside.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise why you are opening so many centers and making arrangement that "We shall provide you with shelter, with food. These are the facilities. You live here, do whatever is your capacity. Don't sleep, but work." This is our teaching. Satāṁ prasaìgāt, this is also, and Rūpa Gosvāmī says, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saìge sadbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "If you live with the association of sādhu, devotee, then it will be quickly fruitful." And if you live with these ordinary men, then whatever you have got will be finished very soon. There is another verse. It is said there that it is preferred to live within the cage surrounded by fire than to live with the nondevotees. It is preferred.

Bali Mardana: Or with those who are too much attached to women also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nondevotee means too much attached to woman. That is the plain fact.

Yaśodānandana: Also one time in Bombay you told this verse from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, sādhu-saìga, sādhu-saìga...

Prabhupāda: Sarva-śāstre kaya, lava-mātra sādhu-saìge sarva-siddhi haya. For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more. It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction, that's all, although I was a gṛhastha.

Bali Mardana: You are a much better student than us.

Prabhupāda: So this is the process. That is the... You sing every day. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. That is the process. Wherever you live, if you follow strictly the instruction of guru, then you remain perfect. But if we create, concoct ideas against the instruction of guru, then we are doomed, hell. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. There is no more shelter, finished. Yasya prasādāt. If guru thinks that "This person, I wanted to take him back to home, back to Godhead. Now he is going against me. He is not following," aprasādāt, he is displeased, then everything is finished.

Bali Mardana: Vaiṣṇavāparādha.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, where does someone derive his authority...

Prabhupāda: The guru is authority.

Devotee (1): No, I know, but for his actions other than just following the four regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds. He does so many other things during the day. Where does he derive his authority if he's not, let's say, living in the temple?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow. The authority is guru. You have accepted.

Bali Mardana: For everything.

Jayatīrtha: Say I have some outside job, I'm living outside, but I'm not giving 50% of my income. So then that work that I'm doing, is it actually under the authority of the guru?

Prabhupāda: Then you are not following the instruction of guru. That is plain fact.

Jayatīrtha: So that means that whole activity during the day, working, that means I am not following the instruction of the guru. It's unauthorized activity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you don't follow the instruction of guru, then you are fallen down immediately. That is the way. Otherwise why you sing, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo. It is my duty to satisfy guru. Otherwise I am nowhere. So if you prefer to be nowhere, then you disobey as you like. But if you want to be steady in your position, then you have to follow strictly the instruction of guru.

Devotee (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply by reading your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required. Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Mahārāja not more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a gṛhastha, I never lived with the Maṭha, in the temple. It is practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Mahārāja said, "Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what is needed in due course of time."

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Prabhupāda: He said like that. I could not understand at that time what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.

Yaśodānandana: I think you have done this in grand style.

Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupāda! Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Yes, done grand style because I strictly follow the instruction of my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. Otherwise I have no strength. I have not played any magic. Did I? Any gold manufacturing? (laughter) Still, I have got better disciples than the gold-manufacturing guru.

Yaśodānandana: Before you came, many gurus came, but they did not make any pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: How they can? He is not pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. How he can do? Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra: "Without being empowered by Kṛṣṇa nobody can turn a person to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." It is not... Artificially, you cannot make. He may make show of gold manufacturing, but he cannot make a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.

Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal.

Devotee (1): We should dedicate our lives to preaching this message of Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching, preaching, you will become perfect preacher. Preach only what you have heard from Kṛṣṇa and guru, that's all. Don't add and subtract. Then you are secure. And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupāda said it." More misleading. Yes. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               February 4, 1975, Hawaii                                                           382778

.....says, "There are many gurus who will take away your money, but rare is the one who will take away your miseries."

Prabhupāda: Guravo bahavaḥ santi vittāpahārakaḥ.

Nitāi: Yes, right.

Prabhupāda:

guravo bahavaḥ

santi vittāpahārakaḥ

taṁ tu guruṁ na paśyāmi

śiṣya-santā-pahārakāḥ

"There are many gurus. They are very expert in plundering disciples' money, but it is very difficult to find out a guru who can take out all the anxieties of the disciple." Śiṣya santa-pahārakāḥ. Guru is meant for taking away the santāpa. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līòha-loka-trāṇāya kārunya-ghanāghanatvam. "The śiṣya will be peaceful"--objective of life--that is the business of guru, not to take away his money.

Haṁsadūta: In one lecture you were explaining those prayers, saṁsāra, and you said the first business of the guru is to take away the anxiety of the disciple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, our people, they have got some hope that they're going back to home, back to Godhead. And all other rascals--zero. Who is endeavoring for zero? What is this endeavor?

Haṁsadūta: There's nothing to do for that.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In Bhāgavata also--gurur na sa syāt. He should not be guru unless he is able to protect his disciple from the imminent danger of death. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This cycle of birth and death is going on. Guru's business is how to stop this cycle of birth and death. And it is not very difficult. Teach him to understand Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is assuring, "If anyone understands Me nicely, then after giving up this body he comes to Me." Where is the difficulty? Give him Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he is saved from birth and death. There is nothing wonderful. There is no jugglery. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. (break) ...only institution for mitigating the sufferings of humanity. But they don't know what is the real suffering of humanity. Dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is the real suffering, cycle of birth and death. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. These rascals, they do not know what is the goal of life, svārtha, self-interest. Unless he comes to Viṣṇu, there is no question of svārtha-gati. (break) ...reclaim this portion, eh... (break) ...strong and stout. Not all. (break) Yesterday it was a very nice city, and today it is finished. This is called māyā. (break) And there is no God. Just see how intelligent they are. To pour water whole night thousands of miles, can the scientists arrange? So who is arranging for that? His father? His father, of course, arranges, but he does not agree to offer respect to the father. (break)

 

Morning Walk(BBT Warehouse)             February 10, 1975, Los Angeles                                                     382920

Prabhupāda: Yes. So organize this, and all over the world this will be appreciated. And now we have got so many books. From the book you get subject matter and make a playwright in all languages. It will be very nice.

Gurudāsa: They have a repertoire of eight main ones that they can do, and now they're starting to do others also, from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, etc.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think he is good director, Prajāpati.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. His wife is very expert also.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And also you can call... What is he? Jagad-dhita...? That Australian girl?

Gurudāsa: Oh, yes, Jagatāriṇī.

Prabhupāda: Jagatāriṇī.

Jayatīrtha: She can come here?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She is expert dancer. She was very popular actress before joining. Very, very popular actress. You know?

Viśākhā: I've heard the name, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a newspaper, big, big..., that "This girl has given up everything, now has joined Kṛṣṇa."

Gurudāsa: Yesterday one professional skydiver, one who parachutes from a plane for money, I talked to her. She's joining the dance company. Yesterday. Thirty-four years old, professional parachuter woman, she is joining the dance company. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Our dance company?

Gurudāsa: Yes, our dance company. She saw the dance, and I preached to her. She's joining.

Viśākhā: We plan to make a motion picture of the Bhagavad-gītā dance that they do. My husband and I...

Prabhupāda: Do it. Apply your American brain how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is success.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

Whatever talent one has got... These talents are also acquired after austerity. It is not ordinary thing. So everything should be employed to describe Uttamaśloka, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is Uttamaśloka. So we have got so many Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's pastime. We can overflood. Just like you can overflood with this literature, we can overflood... This is art. Art, music, everything we can utilize. In any way one is addicted--let him eat only, let him sing only, let him paint only, let him dance only--we have got everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let him do business also. Yes. Engineering--construct temple. It is so all-perfect movement, Kṛṣṇa... That is Kṛṣṇa, all-attractive. Everyone can be attracted and give up everything. He will be attracted by Kṛṣṇa in such a way that he'll give up all nonsense. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No more other enga... Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. All other attraction finished. Simply Kṛṣṇa. What are these?

Hṛdayānanda: Back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Oh, magazine.

Rāmeśvara: These boxes have come from the printer all ready to go to different countries, and they stamp the address on it. These are those newspapers you saw yesterday called "Spiritual Revolution."

Prabhupāda: I think this Revolution is not very important. Make revolution with magazine, this Back to Godhead. What are these?

Rāmeśvara: The Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Lord Caitanya in Five Features, that chapter that we printed.

Jayatīrtha: These are the ones that you wanted us to bring for distribution to the Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Māyāvādīs.

Rāmeśvara: Just before Christmas this wall was filled up, and now it is practically empty. We have sold so many books just in a few months. All up to the ceiling it was filled up. Now we have to reprint.

Prabhupāda: Now it is only in English language. In every language such big go-down should... Yes. (chuckles) You have taken Spanish, and he is German. Then... Then overflood. No more other literature. (laughter) Ara nāhe bābā. They'll say, "No, no, we don't want any other literature." Yes, George says, "No more singing anything except Kṛṣṇa." Does he not say? He says like that.

 

Room Conversation                                     February 12, 1975, Mexico                                                         383142

Guest (4): But is it possible to lead the life of a gṛhastha and at the same time think of that?

Prabhupāda: Well, Arjuna was gṛhastha and a king and a politician. If he could learn within half an hour the aim of life, then where is the difficulty for a gṛhastha? Arjuna was not a sannyāsī. So it was spoken to him only, and Kṛṣṇa selected that "You are the right person." So there is no question of gṛhastha, sannyāsī. The person must be right to understand.

Guest (4): Is it possible to develop some such kind of psyche?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Arjuna was not willing to fight. Then he developed; "Yes, I must fight for Kṛṣṇa." That is development.

Guest (4): So there is no conflict between the...

Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also āśrama. It is as good as sannyāsa āśrama. You can accept any āśrama suitable for you, but āśrama means cultivation of spiritual knowledge. That is the difference between āśrama and ordinary house. Now, this building is called temple, and the next building is called house. Why? The building is the same. But it is meant for cultivating spiritual knowledge. Therefore it is called temple, to understand God. The other house is meant for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Therefore they are house. So you can change your house into temple provided you try to understand God. Then it is āśrama. Otherwise it is house.

Guest (4): But is it possible to jump from brahmacārī to directly sannyāsa?

Prabhupāda: It is not jumping. It is regular process.

Guest (4): One should go through all the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like student. Then he becomes a family man when he's grown up. Then he becomes again a sannyāsī. So it is a process. It is not jumping. One after another.

Guest (4): Yes, but would you allow one of the devotees to, if he wants to, observe celibacy and then...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is brahmacārī.

Guest (4): And after that...

Prabhupāda: After that, he should continue the life of celibacy. But if he is unable, then he's allowed to marry.

Guest (4): Because (Sanskrit). You cannot suppress your karma.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of supressing. Regulating.

Guest (5): Do the same rules apply to women as to men?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that in the society women, working class, and the mercantile class, they are, according to Vedic scripture, they are less intelligent, women, working class and mercantile men. Just like merchant..., they are after money, that's all. And śūdra, they want, after job. And women means they are after fulfilling their material desires. They have no other idea, that there is Brahmān, one should know Brahmān... They do not care to know. Therefore they are called śūdras, stri, śūdra, vaiśya. Yes. Vaiśya. So Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

So it is not blocked for anyone. Anyone can get Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anyone can go back to home, back to Godhead, provided you follow the regulative principle. Then it is possible for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's woman, whether he's working class, whether he's a śūdra or a brāhmaṇa. It doesn't matter. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Even they can go. And what to speak of the brāhmaṇas?" Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ... If the brāhmaṇas, they cultivate spiritual knowledge, it becomes very easy for them. Even they can go, śūdras, stri, vaiśya. These are all the statement.

Guest (5): Can a woman become sannyāsī?

Prabhupāda: Why sannyāsī? Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. He does not say to become sannyāsī. He said, "One who takes shelter of Me very firmly..." We have to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. You become sannyāsī or not sannyāsī--it doesn't matter. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. He never says that "You become sannyāsī." He never said. The qualification is how to become firmly fixed up at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is qualification. But sannyāsī is a process. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha--that is a process. But one who takes directly shelter of Kṛṣṇa is above all these processes.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

Those who are pure devotees--avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam--such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.

Guest (4): That which Śrīla Gandhi was working against?

Prabhupāda: If I say the truth you'll be angry. (chuckling)

Guest (4): No, no one will be angry, but you have mentioned...

Prabhupāda: Gandhi was a politician. What does he know about dharma? He was a politician. He thought it wise that British government is very strong... Before him so many political parties tried to become violent, and they were all curbed down. This Aurobindo also was a leader of anarchist party, and when he was condemned to death, then his senses came: "This is all useless. Let me engage in performing yoga." So Gandhi thought that before him all these violent movement was cast down by the British. So he took it as a method, nonviolence, noncooperation, and to capture the public of India--India is generally inclined religiously--he became a mahātmā. But mahātmā is different. A mahātmā is not interested in politics. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ-prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso. That is mahātmā. Mahātmā has nothing to do with politics.

Guest (5): The term mahātmā was first used to describe Gandhi by Annie Besant.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one can use any term without any sense.

Guest (4): No, I think it was by Rabindranath.

Prabhupāda: They... Anyone can. Rabindra Bābu was also like that. (laughter) He was a bābu, but he became guru. This is going on.

Guest (4): That means that about this varṇa-saìkara etc--Lord Kṛṣṇa mentions in Gītā--that this present day society is varṇa-saìkara.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa-saìkara. There is no varṇāśrama; therefore all the children, they are varṇa-saìkara. And as soon as there is varṇa-saìkara population, the world becomes hell. Therefore we are trying to check--"No illicit sex"--to stop this varṇa-saìkara. Now the varṇa-saìkara has come to such an extent that they are killing child, and that is legal. They have come down to such a extreme position.

Guest (4): But surely there is a practical point of view also. There is nothing to eat. What will happen?

Prabhupāda: Who says nothing to eat? That is also their manufacture.

Guest (4): I mean the figures which are published that half of humanity will starve.

Prabhupāda: It's... Especially, we are Indian. It is advertised that we are poverty-stricken. All over the world this is advertised. Wherever I go, they say, "Oh, you are coming from India?" (laughter) Because they are simply begging, the government. But who is dying? There is... Dying is going on, but that death is going on in other countries also. They are dying, committing suicide. And maybe some persons are dying out of starvation. You cannot stop death. Suppose you have got enough food. That means that everything is solved? In America there is enough food. Why they are coming hippies? There is no shortage of food. Nothing... Everything is abundant, but why they are becoming hippies? They are lying down on the street, on the park and I have seen in London, the St. James Park. They are sleeping, and the police is kicking: "Hey! Get up! Get up!" So why? The English nation is not poor nation. The American nation is not poor nation.

Guest (4): Poverty is also a comparative term.

Prabhupāda: No, I saw in Amsterdam--simply full of hippies, lying down on the street, lying down in the park, no food, no shelter. It is going on.

Guest (2): The hippies are not lying in the park because they lack food.

Prabhupāda: They must be wanting something. They are in need of something.

Guest (2): But not necessarily food.

Prabhupāda: One body is in need of food; another body is in need of something else. They're needy, everyone, needy. That you have to accept. I have seen in Los Angeles. I was walking in the Beverly Hills quarter. One hippie boy is coming from a very nice house. Beverly Hills, that quarter, is resided by all rich class. And he has got very nice car, but he's hippie. Why? His father is very rich man. He has got nice car. He might be very educated. Then why he is hippie? What is the answer?

Hanumān: He's frustrated.

Prabhupāda: That means in need. So that is the question, that you may be in need of food, I may be in need of some woman, he may be in need of some money... In this way everyone is needy. Therefore ultimately one should search after God, when every need will be fulfilled. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he went... He was in need of an empire like his father. For that reason he went to the forest and performed all kinds of austerities, and when he saw God he said, svāmin kṛthārto 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have no more need. Everything is fulfilled. I don't want anything." He... God said, "Now whatever benediction you want, you take from Me." He said, "No, I don't want anything. Now everything is fulfilled." So that is the real need. The child is crying, and he is not stopping crying. So many others coming. But as soon as his mother comes, he will stop. He understands immediately, "Now I have got the thing, my mother." So the real need is Kṛṣṇa. That is missing. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All these Western students, they were in need. Now they have got Kṛṣṇa. This young man, twenty-four years old, he has got all the desires for enjoyment, but he's no more after enjoyment. He's a sannyāsī. He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? (break) ...playing jugglery? He becomes God. So even the so-called yogis, they are in need. The so-called jïānīs, they are in need. The so-called karmīs, they are also in need. Only the bhakta... That Dhruva Mahārāja, he said, "No, I am not in need." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. So therefore this is the only platform to bring man to feel completely fulfilled. So it is very important movement. So I request you all to study this movement and help and join this movement. It is very scientific, authentic, and real. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ. If you want to be happy, you have to take Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy. Otherwise not.

Guest (4): So dharma there means to the religious faith or duty?

Prabhupāda: No, dharma is duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. That is also given up. That means the only duty becomes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. In the beginning He said that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yes. Yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Now, He said that "I appear to reestablish the principle of religion." So at the last stage He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. That means the so-called dharmas, or religion, which is going on in the world, they are not real. And the Bhāgavata therefore says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra that "All kinds of pretending religion is rejected here." Pretending religion, what is that? Pretending... Just like gold. Gold is gold. If the gold is in the hand of some Hindu, then will it be called Hindu gold? Similarly, religion means obedience to God. So where is Hindu religion? Where is Christian religion? Where is Muslim religion? God is everywhere, and we are just meant for obeying God. That is one religion, obedience to God. Why they have manufactured this Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, this religion, that...? Therefore they are all pretending religion. Real religion is obedient... Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Just like law. Law is made by the state. The law cannot be Hindu law, Muslim law, Christian law, this law, that law. Law is meant for everyone. Obedience to the state. That is law. Similarly, religion means obedience to God. Then one who has no conception of God, no idea of God, where is religion? That is pretending religion. Therefore in the Bhāgavata you'll find, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: "All pretending type of religion is rejected." And Kṛṣṇa also said the same thing, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "You give up all this pretending religion. You simply surrender unto Me. That is real religion." What is the use of speculating on pretending religion. That is not religion at all. Just like pretending law. Law cannot be pretending. Law is law, given by the state. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. That is religion. If you follow, then you are religious. If you don't follow, then you are demon. Make things very simplified. Then it will be appealing to everyone. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for making things very simplified. Accept God, accept your position as God's servant and serve God. That's all, three words. You have no question? These boys?

Hanumān: They don't speak English.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you don't understand English.

Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish)

Hanumān: They're just amazed looking at you.

Guest (6): (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: They said they are simply here feeling your presence, and they realize that you're very busy, and so they are simply feeling love for you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Guest (6): (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: They said they have to go now.

Prabhupāda: All right. Give them prasāda. Everyone should be supplied with.

Guest (2): What do you see as the future of your movement and are you planning to...

Prabhupāda: My movement is genuine.

Guest (2): ...to choose a successor.

Prabhupāda: It is already successful. Genuine thing is always success. Gold is gold. If somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold remains gold. If somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn't matter. Gold is gold. So future, gold future is always the same as it is at present--if it is gold. If it is something glittering, that is another thing.

Guest (4): But there must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are creating. We are creating these devotees who will handle.

Hanumān: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like to know, is your successor named or your successor will...

Prabhupāda: My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is there. But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise you remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement--Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is your choice. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. You do it. Now it is your choice. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa or don't surrender. That is your business. We are canvassing everyone, "Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you'll be happy." Now it is their business to take it or not to take it. But he can come. He can ask question and then "How? Why shall I take it?" That we are ready, to convince him. That is preaching.

Hanumān: When you have come to United States, you had nothing...

Prabhupāda: I came to give you. Some of you have taken, and some have not taken, so what can I do? I came to give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja ordered and I came. And... But some of you, you have taken, and most of, they have not taken. So that is another thing. But I came to deliver you the genuine thing. That's all.

Hanumān: The way you have come is that you have come as though you've not come from a religion or nothing. You've come and everybody fall in love with you, you preach, and, Prabhupāda, we cannot deny you are the authority because you know everything, and your...

Prabhupāda: Any way you take it, then you become happy. That's all. Of course, when you take it out of love... That is a fact. So without love, this transaction, because there is no price for it... All other transaction, there is exchange of price. Here there is no price, so out of love only, one can take it, not by paying any price. It is not possible. To pay the price of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible. Yes.

Hanumān: You cannot force anybody to say, "I am the guru. I'm the (indistinct). Fall in love with me."

Prabhupāda: Why shall I force? What is my... That is not my business. I am Kṛṣṇa's servant. I simply say, "Here is good thing. You take it." Now, Kṛṣṇa also says that. He does not force. Kṛṣṇa is God. He can force, but He does not do that.

Guest (6): Good night now.(?)

Prabhupāda: Bring prasāda for them.

Hṛdayānanda: Prasāda?

Guest (4): How long you'll stay?

Prabhupāda: Here?

Hṛdayānanda: About three more days.

Prabhupāda: Three more days. That is in his hand. First of all give here. (prasāda being distributed) (break)

Guest (2): Gītā, Kṛṣṇa, Caritāmṛta, and Bhāgavatam. You have other texts?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): What do you recommend?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. We have translated it--Nectar of Devotion. This in...

Guest (2): This is in Sanskrit or...

Prabhupāda: No, English.

Guest (2): Bengali? No, but original.

Prabhupāda: Original Sanskrit.

Guest (4): Apart from (indistinct) quality of Lord Rāma, are there a few other things which could be included while you are worshiping or devoting or meditating on...?

Prabhupāda: God has all the qualities that you can conceive. It is generally not... Bhaga(?), it is taken as six, six opulences. Bhaga means opulence, and vān means possessing. Bhagavat. Bhagavat-śabda. Bhaga means opulence, and vat means one who possesses. And the first word in bhagavat-śabda is bhagavān. This bhaga means six kinds of opulences: riches, then fame, then bodily strength, influence, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. These are opulences. If one is very rich, people are attracted. If one is very reputed, people are attracted. If one is very strong, people are attracted. Influential--attracted. If one is very beautiful, man or woman, he is also attractive. If one is very wise, he's attractive. And one who is renounced, he's also attra... So Kṛṣṇa has got all these qualification in full. That is the definition of God. Anyone who possesses all these qualities in fullness, not partially, that is God. This is the definition of God. Not that "I can produce one ounce of gold," but if he can produce all the mines of gold, he is God. Not cheap God. In that way everyone is God. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                            February 21, 1975, Caracas                                                         383819

Hṛdayānanda: ...ask a lot that if there could be a Kṛṣṇa conscious society, would this mean to stop the industry and technology?

Prabhupāda: Industry, technology you can continue, but practically it has no use. (break) Just like there is the bench, you can sit down on the ground, and to sit down little comfortably you manufacture the bench. So for sitting down, you can utilize the ground, but you are unnecessarily wasting your time and manufacturing... This is industry. (break) ...philosophy is that we have to save time for becoming fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our necessity. And if we divert our energy for sitting down comfortably, then time is wasted. That... There is natural mattress, and there is a natural pillow, so why should you manufacture pillow and mattress? This is Sukadeva Gosvāmī. And there is natural food, fruits. So... And if you want still nice home, go to the cave. It is already made. Why should you waste your time? This is the Bhāgavata philosophy. But they are wasting time simply how to live in nice apartment, how to manufacture nice mattress, pillow. This is... So the whole philosophy is: save your time and make your life perfect within this short duration of life which you have obtained in this human form of life. Durlabhaṁ manusaṁ janma. It is very rarely you have got. Utilize it. And if you don't utilize, if you waste your time in these bodily comforts and next life you become a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? They do not understand this. (break)

Hṛdayānanda: ...sometimes they raise... Just like you pointed out in the preface of the Bhāgavatam that we're no longer in the Dark Ages in the sense that previously there was no communication due to the geographical boundaries and that even though other forms of technology may be useless, at least it's very beneficial to have different forms of communication such as telephone, telegraph, things like this, television. This is actually necessary.

Prabhupāda: But that you can utilize for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification. That is the defect. They are simply wasting time in sense gratification. If the telephone and the telegraph, television is used for propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is all right. But they are not doing that. We are utilizing the modern press facilities for printing Vedic scriptures. But they are utilizing the press for sex literature, Freud's philosophy. (break)

Hṛdayānanda: ...policy towards the problem of overpopulation and food shortage in the world now when the world leaders are not willing to do anything? What is our policy towards these problems?

Prabhupāda: Produce food. But you are producing bolts and nuts. You eat them. Motor tire, you are producing motor tire, bolts and nuts. You eat it. (Hṛdayānanda translates into Spanish) (laughter) The energy is spoiled, creating problem. Everyone is engaged in manufacturing motor parts.

Guest: (Hṛdayānanda translates) He's saying that he himself is involved with political leaders, and he said he's found that they're completely unwilling. They don't want to hear anything about the solution, and they're completely stuck to their own way. So what can ISKCON do...

Prabhupāda: They will suffer, that's all.

Hṛdayānanda: He said is there anything we can do in the political field to try to...

Prabhupāda: If they will not take, they don't want to hear, then they must suffer.

Hṛdayānanda: He's saying all the human race is suffering due to the bad points of the leaders.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because the rascal leaders.

Hṛdayānanda: So there's nothing that we should do? (break) This food relief program that you started in India could also be used in other countries where there are also economic problems.

Prabhupāda: Why not? But prasādam, not ordinary food. From all our centers you can distribute food, prasādam, because that prasādam means they will gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise if you give them ordinary food, they will get strength, and they will increase their sex desire, that's all, problems. (break)

Hṛdayānanda: ...the movement who previously had been expert in mathematics, how could he use that for Kṛṣṇa's service if he's expert in mathematics?

Prabhupāda: Mathematics? So you can calculate, "After so many years the whole universe will be destroyed." (laughter) Not of the universe but everyone's life. This body will be destroyed. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. And again you get another body. It will stay for so many years. Again you annihilate. Again you get. In this way eternal time is being wasted.

Hṛdayānanda: In the modern world the engineers are designing everything. So how can an engineer use his talent for Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Design a temple, nice temple. There are wonderful temples, very expert engineering. And they were ordinary men but the engineer was so nice that nobody can manufacture such temple in the whole world, still.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that was really wonderful, what you explained, that previously the people would build a very wonderful temple, and the ordinary people would just live in a very common, simple house.

Prabhupāda: Not for themselves. They knew the art how to manufacture nice building, but they did not care for personal use. It was used for Kṛṣṇa. Sometimes only the kings, in order to keep their position, they used to have gorgeous building. Otherwise ordinary men, cottage. (break) To live in cottage means to save time.

Mexican devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one of the magazines I read that there was a saint who he didn't even construct a rug?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Romaharṣaṇa. (break) Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajïād bhavanti parjanyaḥ, yajïād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. If there is timely cloud and rainfall, this ground can be moistened very easily. But they won't perform yajïa; therefore there is scarcity of cloud and rain. Now they have to manufacture this sprinkler. And it is not perfect. (break)

Hṛdayānanda: Another question, Prabhupāda. He said that you have stated that Kali-yuga will last for around 400,000 more years and then it will be finished and that the culture will gradually degrade, people will become very short and so on and so forth. So he's wondering if there will be geographical changes in the world or if the culture as we know it now will simply disappear and how the people will be... More or less, he's wondering what will become of the earth.

Prabhupāda: Because they will not get sufficient food, shelter, bodily necessities. Just like it is already declining, already declining. Just formerly in our childhood we saw the Western people very tall. Now they are not tall. They are decreasing already. (break) In the Western countries, still there are some but in other countries they are very lean, thin and drawn. Stature of the body will decrease. Memory will decrease. It is already taking place. So in this way, you just imagine, in 400,000 years after, what will be the condition. You take mathematical calculation. (laughter) (break)

Hṛdayānanda: He's asking again about geographically, what will it be like as far as temperatures and the different continents. That's what he's interested in.

Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually everything will be barren. At the end of annihilation everything will be barren and by scorching the sunlight will be twelve times higher. So everything will be barren and burned into ashes.

Devotee: Hiraṇyākṣa was taking the gold from the earth. Now they are taking the oil. So the weight, the oil makes weight in some parts of the globe, no? So when they take it and they put it some place else or they convert it in the earth, the earth is losing weights in some parts. That is no going to cause...

Prabhupāda: I think I have explained this. Instead of contemplating what will happen to this world, you have got a short duration of life, say fifty, sixty years. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Don't consider what will happen to this world. The nature will take care of it. You don't puzzle your brain with these thoughts. You utilize whatever time you have got in your possession and go back to home, back to Godhead. (break) You cannot check it. Best thing is that you mold your life and go back to home, back to Godhead. "Oil in your own machine." Instead of thinking what will happen... They will happen. Because people will go on with their rascal civilization, natural consequences will be there. You better take advantage of whatever time you have got and become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious and go back to home. (break) ...and we are thinking, "You are crazy. You are losing the opportunity of life." Therefore I wrote that "Who is Crazy?" They have got this opportunity, human form of life, to make a solution of all problems, but they do not care for it. They are simply allured, the temporary happiness of this body, and the body will finish within some years. That they do not take care. They think it is all in all, body.

Hṛdayānanda: So that's animal life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal civilization. The animal is running without motor car. We are running on motor car. That is the difference. (break) ...smallpox. One who does not know the science, he will say accidental. It is not accidental. You contaminated the disease somewhere, and now it is visible, manifest. There is nothing like accident. Otherwise why it is Brahma-saṁhitā says, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. Kāraṇa means cause. Everything has got cause. The ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. (break) The cause is petrol, oil, but what is the cause of this petrol, they do not know.

Hṛdayānanda: That would be real science to know the cause of the petrol.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How petrol is produced in so large quantity? Who has made this arrangement? How it is producing? They are not interested.

Hṛdayānanda: So as you were saying then, just to manipulate the petrol in different ways, that's like the art, as you've been saying.

Prabhupāda: That's all. You cannot produce petrol. Just like gold is already there, manufactured by God. You can make only different types of ornaments, that's all. Everything. This metal covering of this body, you have not produced this metal. They are like the carpenter. The carpenter has not produced the wood nor the metal instrument nor himself, but he is working. This body is also not produced by him. That is also made by Kṛṣṇa. His intelligence is also made by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving the body. Kṛṣṇa is giving the intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is giving the wood. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instrument. Now, if you produce some furniture, to whom it will belong? To the carpenter or to the supplier of everything? Who will enjoy it? Who will enjoy it? If the carpenter claims that "I have done it," that is foolishness. You have done it as a worker, and you have been supplied with everything, your intelligence, your food, your instrument, your ingredient. Therefore the supplier should be the proprietor, not the carpenter. That is real philosophy.

Hṛdayānanda: That's practically the law everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Hṛdayānanda: Carpenter comes and he pays him.

Prabhupāda: And he is given payment. He is given food, shelter, everything, to work for Kṛṣṇa. Now Kṛṣṇa, bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasām. Whatever activities are going on there, the enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, nobody else.

Hṛdayānanda: So that's like a new light that you have given. I noticed in your lectures that you were always saying that these things were art. It took a while for me to understand it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing belongs to you. Why should you claim it is yours? They are claiming North America "ours," South America "ours." So how it became yours? It was already there, and you came as a immigrant, and it becomes yours? (break) Karmīs, they are claiming, "It is our property." And the jïānīs, they are living that "This is mithyā," and give it up. Both of them in the wrong. It is created by somebody, how you can say mithyā, false? Māyāvādī says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The whole cosmic manifestation is false." How it is false? And karmīs, they are claiming unnecessarily, "It is mine." Creator is different person, and he is claiming, "mine". That is also false.

Hṛdayānanda: So they are both envious of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They do not know Kṛṣṇa. Foolish. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                  March 1, 1975, Atlanta                                                             384313

Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic description. The religious principles cannot be manufactured by anyone within this universe. It is the codes or laws given by God. That is religion. That means we have to know who is God, what is His desire, and we have to abide by that. That is religion. Just like a good citizen means he knows the government and the government laws and he abides by it. Then he is good citizen. Otherwise he is criminal. If he does not abide by the laws of the state, he is criminal. Similarly, if one does not abide by the orders or the codes or the laws of God, he is Satan or demon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā. Therefore anyone who is disobedient to God, he cannot have any good qualification. And yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate suraḥ. And one who is devotee, abiding by the orders of God, he has got all the good qualification of God's. Therefore, the duty of the state, duty of the father, duty of the teacher, everyone, those who are guardians--they should teach their subordinate how to become faithful to God. This one qualification will make him perfect. That is not being done. Everyone is godless mostly. And therefore there is problems, chaotic condition. Nobody is abiding by the supreme law. Everyone is creating his own law. That is the trouble. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for making the human society law-abiding citizen of the laws given by God. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa, God, is giving, "You do like this." If we do like that... Or take even Bible. If we follow strictly, then we become happy. So, am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

Guest (1) (Indian gentleman): You are very right in saying this because we cannot solve any problem. The problems keep on multiplying. When we solve one problem, there are twenty ahead of us.

Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva. This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world. There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra. So we cannot expect any good things from śūdra. That is not possible. Formerly there was monarchy, and the kings were called rājarṣis, saintly king. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. These instruction are meant for the rājarṣis, not for the śūdras. So the rājarṣis, they would take instruction from superior authority, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, and they will accordingly rule over. And the vaiśyas would produce food grains sufficiently and milk sufficiently. People would eat very nicely, and they keep their health fit and save time for understanding his relationship with God. That is perfect civilization.

Guest (2) (American gentleman): Who is a śūdra? Is it determined by jāti?

Prabhupāda: Yes, one who is seeking service like dog. The dog goes door to door and moves his tail: "Give me some food. Give me some..."

Guest (2): Is it determined by jāti, by birth?

Prabhupāda: No. His quality... He has no quality.

Guest (2): Spiritual type.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not spiritual type, it..., material type. He cannot maintain himself independently. Nowadays people are being educated highly, but if there is no service he has no value.

Guest (2): So the tamasi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no value. I have seen one doctor of chemistry--he could not get any service--in Allahabad. His name was Raghunātha Mitri(?), Dr. Raghunātha Mitri. So he was living at the cost of his father-in-law and making some soap and going to the shop for selling, doctor. That means he could not get any service. Now his independence was to manufacture some soap as ordinary man is doing. But he was chemist; he could not do anything. He could manufacture some soap. So in spite of high education, because he could not get a good job, he had no value. Just like the dogs. The dogs, if they do not get a master, nice, then street dog. He is lean and thin and no shelter, no...

Guest (1): That is what is happening...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...at the present time in this country to 10% of the people. They don't have jobs. They are let out. They can't...

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, every country, every country. Now, just like you are highly educated. Your country could not give you service. You are coming here. And that is śūdra. One who cannot live independently, he is śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently. So we are producing mass śūdras. Therefore it is in chaotic condition. The Communist is the last word of the śūdras. The Communist philosophy is that "We are worker. We have all the power. We must have all the power." And that they are doing. And because they do not want to obey any authority, therefore they are denying existence of God. This is the tendency of the modern society. Not only they do not know what is God, and they are trying to disobey the orders of God. So practically there is no religion. And without religion human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīnā pasubhiḥ samānāḥ. "Human being without any ideas of religion, God, he is no better than animal." That is the difference between animal and human being. Animal eats, we eat; animal sleeps, we sleep; animal have sexual intercourse, we have; animal also defends, we also defend. These are common features. And what is the special feature? The special feature of human being--that he can understand what is God. So if he does not understand God, he is animal, because the distinction between animal and man is being avoided. So far other activities are concerned, they are the same as of human being and as of animal. But what is the distinction? The distinction is that in the human society there is an endeavor to understand God, and the animal society, there is no such endeavor. So when the so-called human society becomes devoid of God consciousness, it is animal society. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for raising the human society to the real platform of human society, not to keep them in the animal platform. Try to understand God and love Him. This is the substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So, yes?

 

Room Conversation                                        March 1, 1975, Atlanta                                                            384612

Indian man (1): Swamiji, can I ask you a very silly question which has been asked to us a lot of times, and we don't have a satisfactory answer to it. Why is the cow sacred and not the other animals?

Prabhupāda: Because it gives milk.

Indian man (1): But there are a lot of other ani... Buffaloes give milk too.

Prabhupāda: Not so much.

Indian man (1): In larger quantities.

Prabhupāda: But milk means... It is scientifically proved. Milk means cow's milk.

Indian man (2): But what about the killing of those cows which are not the milching type as cows that are being bred here.

Prabhupāda: First of all, killing is sinful. Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is sinful. It doesn't matter whether you kill cow or goat or any. But from economic point of view, cow is very important because it supplies milk. And milk preparation, we Indians know how many we can get, nice milk preparation. Dahi, rabri, this, that, burfi, that how nutritious, how palatable. And that is good for human being. First thing is that why should you kill if you have got sufficient food. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ. The vegetable, fruits, then food grains, then sugar, and everything is there, sufficient. At least we Indian, we know. We can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparation, nice, palatable, enjoy it. Why should you go to kill the animal?

Indian man (2): But scientists have claimed that meat provides...

Prabhupāda: Scientists, first of all we have rejected them.

Indian man (2): ...excellent quality of protein. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But however protein you may accumulate, can you stop your death?

Indian man (2): No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of protein? If you think that protein will save you from death, then you collect the best protein. But after all, you are going to die. Nature will not allow to live, even you take much quantity of protein. First of all make solution that you will not die. Then try to find out best protein. What is your answer about this birth, death, old age and disease? Can you check it?

Indian man (2): No, sir.

Prabhupāda: Then? You take protein. Why you are becoming old?

Indian man (2): The researches, those that have been made, they are imperfect again. They are imperfect, surely imperfect, "Maybe," "Perhaps." Those doubts are there. But scientists say that "Rome was not built in a day."

Prabhupāda: Therefore Indian civilization is that you take rice, wheat, dahl, vegetable and little milk. Whatever protein and vitamin A, B, C, D can be available, that is sufficient.

Indian man (2): Dr. Mahoja has done excellent work on nutrition, and has written two books, and in those books he has advocated that milk is not the only best diet. Balanced food you can have by your dahls and so many other sources. Milk is not the only one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In your Punjab, in United Province...

Indian man (2): In this he is, I think, very right in his approach. He is not one-sided.

 

 

Room Conversation                                       March 2, 1975, Atlanta                                                             385323

Prabhupāda: So you want to take again election? (chuckles) No.

Balavanta: Not if you don't want to, Prabhupāda. I was just thinking it was an opportunity to preach if you want it. But if you're not very enthusiastic about it, I don't want to do it.

Prabhupāda: No, I am enthusiastic provided you don't want money.

Balavanta: I think we can get our own... I can get the money. It doesn't have to cost very much. The only thing we would need is maybe two men to help. And we can... It won't cost... Only for two or three months out of the year.

Prabhupāda: Then you can do it. It makes you well known in the city. And you get the opportunity of criticizing the demons. (laughter) That is...

Satsvarūpa: This boy is Bhakta Doug, and he was a personal secretary of Maharishi for two years.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Satsvarūpa: He traveled all over with him. And one day... He was a very good student, and one day Maharishi said, "If you really want to know the highest truth, it's Kṛṣṇa consciousness." And then he left and he came and joined our tem... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Maharishi said like that?

Doug: Yes, he did say that. It took me awhile to make the transition, but with Kṛṣṇa's mercy, I saw the way through to become Kṛṣṇa...

Devotee (5): Maharishi must have read one of your books, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: He has read my books?

Devotee (5): He must have, if he said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest truth. How else could he know but reading your books?

Devotee (3): One time we were in Orlando, Florida, at the Kundalini Yoga festival. And they had Yogi Bhajan there. And he came out and we had a chant, and we had prasādam, and we had BTG's, and we distributed some BTG's. And he took a BTG and gave a dollar donation, and he patted us on the head and said, "You boys keep chanting the holy names of God."

Balavanta: That Guru Maharaj-ji, that little fat boy? So he told his disciples that if you want to learn, you should go to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and learn pūjā. He said, "They know how to worship." But then they go and worship him. But he told them that only your disciples know how to pūjā.

Tripurāri: They are just imitating the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tripurāri: No other group distributes literatures, though.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tripurāri: No other group, no other societies of philosophy distributes literatures. Guru Maharaj-ji, they published one magazine for some time, and his devotees, they went out and distributed short time. But they had no taste for continuing the distribution. So they have stopped now.

Prabhupāda: Artificial.

Tripurāri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So he is still making propaganda? No.

Balavanta: Who, Guru Maharaj-ji? Not so much. You don't hear about them. There's not much activity.

Devotee (5): Decreasing. We are increasing, and they are decreasing.

Tripurāri: Sometimes the Christians are distributing papers still at the airports. We invite them to come and take prasāda with us every day.

Prabhupāda: They come?

Tripurāri: They are reluctant. Some, one or two, come.

Devotee (2): Every once in awhile someone we meet when we're distributing books comes and joins us for prasādam, one time a businessman and one time a soldier. Various people sometimes join us. We take a 12 o'clock, 12:30 lunch break. Sometimes we'll be joined by one of these people we distribute books to.

Prabhupāda: When you were with Maharishi? Come here.

Doug: I joined the Maharishi in 1969, and at that time I was living in Washington, D.C. And his national director came, gave a lecture, and they said that they needed some help because they didn't have a center there. So I organized the movement out of my parents' house. I had the center, and I established lectures at all the colleges and started the movement there. And later on, they finally sent some full-time teachers, and they established a center there. And then I started to be with Maharishi and his different courses and doing extensive meditations for long periods of time. And then eventually he formed a committee. This was in 1971-72. He started to form a college called M.I.U., Maharishi International University. And he started to invite educators, and he wanted to... And he also had this...

Prabhupāda: "M.I.U." means Maharishi...?

Doug: Maharishi International University. And so he started to formulate a curriculum. He was trying to present Vedic studies in Western terms. And so he formed this council of the executive called his executive council. It was called The 108. It didn't have 108 people, but this was what he called us.

Prabhupāda: One hundred...?

Doug: The 108. He called it The 108, but the official term was the executive council. And that's what I was with...

Prabhupāda: How many students are there?

Doug: How many students do his meditation?

Prabhupāda: No, the university?

Doug: In the university? I haven't been with them in a year and a half, but they recently bought a college, and they have part of a college in Santa Barbara, the University of California there. So they're pretty well established educationally. But it's losing its potency actually. I think it's actually reached its peak and left, because when I was with Maharishi also I noticed that it seemed that a lot of his potency seemed to diminish, his charisma, over the years. Seemed to me he'd get more and more depressed if people weren't actually reaching the states that he was talking of. It didn't seem like he was satisfied with the advancement people were making. And certainly he wasn't answering the questions, because all that time I was asking him "What is the highest truth." And when he talked to God I would say, "Who is God?" And we'd ask him, "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" and "What about this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement?" And it was word jugglery. He'd kind of evade our questions and satisfy our elan, but... those questions kept coming up. Somehow he kept us from going into too much detail about it. But eventually... I didn't see him for a few days. This was when I was in the mountains with him, some other people. And we were making up these curriculums for this college program. And he was doing some transcriptions on the Brahma-sūtras, and he came out, and he was in a very solemn mood, and he said... We asked him what he had realized, what truths he had realized from the Brahma-sutras. And he said, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest state of consciousness." So I left shortly after that. I feel that I could have been chanting all those years, making some progress.

Prabhupāda: What is his age?

Doug: What is my age?

Prabhupāda: No, his age.

Doug: His age? He's sixty-eight.

Prabhupāda: Old man.

Tripurāri: He translated Bhagavad-gītā, but only six chapters.

Doug: Actually, it's interesting about that, because he finished the whole Bhagavad-gītā, and he put out these first six chapters in a really a boggling word, way, the first six chapters. He was writing in a way that people could still enjoy material sense enjoyment and still do his technique of meditation. But I had a chance to hear the rest of the Bhagavad-gītā that he had translated. And we asked him... We heard that he had it. We asked him why he didn't put it out, and he said that the people of the Western world weren't ready to hear what he had to present. But actually what he had to say was... It's very authentic. What I read was very close with what you have to say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Kṛṣṇa says surrender all your senses unto Him. And I have hopes that maybe someday... Balavanta suggested the idea that I should write him a letter and ask him to have a meeting with you. And maybe some conciliation could be made, and maybe he could come to his senses or something that he could propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness also, because he has so many followers. And I think that there must be some sincerity in him, else I wouldn't have spent so long with him. He must have some sincerity. And I think that he obviously feels that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and I noticed that on his pūjā table he always had a picture of Kṛṣṇa protecting the cows.

Prabhupāda: Instead of asking him to preach, you preach. He has already enunciated a type of formula, and it is very difficult for him to change it. He does not say that he is Bhagavān?

Doug: No, he does not say he is God.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Doug: He always talked in terms of higher states of consciousness, in terms of cosmic consciousness, which I understand to be Brahman realization. Then he talked in terms of, after about the sixth state of consciousness was then God consciousness. And then Paramātmā. Then he talked of the highest state of consciousness, and he said it's Bhagavān realization. But he completely steers away from putting any type of limitation on people's sense control at all, and this is what I have a hard time understanding. Even though the more I was with him he suggested to his close associates to follow the principles of brahmacārī, and he made me one of his brahmacārīs, and he told us to read the scriptures every day, and we had a lot of association...

Prabhupāda: What is his personal character?

Doug: Pardon me?

Prabhupāda: He is observing celibacy or...

Doug: As far as I'm concerned he's been celibate for an awful long time. And he had, his master... He comes from the Śaìkarācārya tradition. His master was the last Śaìkarācārya. And supposedly his master is a life-long celibate. So as far as I know, he always practiced that. Some other rumors have come up somewhere. I heard that the rumors originally originated with the Beatles when they were in India, that there was something going on like that. But as far as I know and anybody else who had been involved with him knew that he was very strict about that. And he encouraged the, me to meet...

Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī.

Doug: What was that?

Balavanta: Brahmacārī.

Doug: Brahmacārī.

Prabhupāda: Celibacy. Does he observe?

Doug: Yes, as far as I know.

Rūpānuga: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu told me that he has a doctorate degree in some science.

Doug: Physics.

Rūpānuga: Physics, a doctorate in physics.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Balavanta: He has a degree, a Ph.D. in physics.

Doug: I don't think it's a Ph.D. I think it's just a masters degree.

Prabhupāda: In physics.

Doug: His master told him to finish school before he could join up with him.

Prabhupāda: He talks science about? No.

Doug: He does talk science, yeah. He tries to present Vedic ideas in scientific terms, so that the people of the West will understand. So originally he came out talking about God consciousness and so forth, but eventually he got more and more into this course he calls the science of creative intelligence, SCI, which is what he... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  March 4, 1975, Dallas                                                              385406

Prabhupāda: ...and standing naked, that those who are fond of nudie-ism, they can get in next life. "All right, you stand naked for many years." This is the punishment. Human society, naked, that is their punishment.

Jayatīrtha: And during the winter they even lose their leaves...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: During the winter, when it's coldest, they lose their leaves.

Prabhupāda: The trees are taken to be the most tolerant. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. There is an extreme example of tolerance, this tree life.

Dayānanda: In one of the purports in Bhāgavatam you mention that first comes humility, then nonviolence and then tolerance.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dayānanda: Is it also mentioned that in other places in our śāstra?

Prabhupāda: There are many places. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is given for practicing God consciousness, and they have become advanced civilized, they are cultivating nudie-ism. Is it not? Nudie-ism. So the punishment is that "All right, you become nudie, you remain standing in one place, for five thousand years." (laughter) That is right. The trees live up till five thousand years. They live.

Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda? But they argue that if God wanted us to wear clothes He would have made us with clothes. But He made us without clothes, so...

Prabhupāda: The thing is that here material world means that whatever you want, you have to work for it. That is material world. Things are there, but you have to work for it. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. You get all necessities. That is the difference.

Viṣṇujana: Yeah, we could say, "If God wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food too." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Viṣṇujana: They say, "If God wanted us to have clothes, that He would have made us with clothes." So if He wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food. Why do you have to go out and get your food? Similarly, you have to go out and get your clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, this is called... What is the definition in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa? Avidyā-karma-samjïānyā tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate. Avidyā...

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā

kṣetrajïākhyā tathā parā

avidyā-karma-samjïānya

tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate

The three divisions of God's energies. One energy is His spiritual energy; another energy--these living entities, they are also spiritual; another energy--material energy, where there is ignorance and work. That is material energy. In the material energy everyone is ignorant and they have to work. Karma. Karma means working. Avidyā-karma-samjïānya tṛtīya. So here you have to work. Without working, you cannot get your... The things are ready, but you will have to work. So they have increased the working capability. That is civilization. Just like in the prisonhouse you have to work. Eh? So they think this working is civilization. This is avidyā. So therefore they have created more work. From early morning, five o'clock, till ten o'clock, simply working. They do not know that "This working is our punishment." But because ignorant, they think that "Working is life." This is called ignorance. He does not know, "This working is my punishment. How to get out of this work?" No. To increase the work more, complicate, that is civilization. This is called avidya. Avidyā-karma-samjïānya. Our tendency is not to work but get things. Therefore he has asked that question. Because he has to get cloth by working, therefore he asking, "Why God has not created?" That means tendency is not to work. That is spiritual tendency. Everything, necessities, automatically available. That is our... Therefore as soon as one man becomes rich, he does not work. He gets his thing by working others. The tendency is there, to retire from work. They go to a solitary place. They retire. They do not go out. Weekly, at least, they want to stop worker, working. So why this tendency? He does not want to die. He does not want to work. This is spiritual. Why man should work like... Therefore real civilization is that minimize work. Minimize work, save time, and go back to your spiritual life. That is civilization. And this is not civilization, to get the necessities of life, sense gratification, and work like hog and dog. That is condemned. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. This human life is not meant for working so hard for sense gratification which are done by the dogs and hogs. Human life is meant: tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed. Human life is for tapasya. Why tapasya? Yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed: their existence will be purified. Then you will get unlimited pleasure. Yato brahma-saukhyam anantam. We are seeking after unlimited pleasure. So that is not possible in this material life. And we are thinking, "By working very hard, like hogs and dogs, we will get happiness." This is... The dogs and hogs, they work day and night for searching out where is stool, and as soon as he gets stool, he becomes very strong and stout. Then sex. Never mind, the mother, sister, daughter. This is hog life. Therefore this particular animal has been... Kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. Viò-bhujāṁ means this hog, stool-eater. So this human life is not meant for imitating the stool-eater hogs. This is in the Bhāgavata. But they have imitated this, "We shall work. Work like hard work, hoglike, and there is no discrimination of food. All sorts of nonsense we shall eat, and in this way we shall get strong and have sex life. Never mind whether he is mother, sister, or daughter. It doesn't matter." This is the modern civilization. And that is warned in the Bhāgavata, "No, this is not life." But this has become actually the life, modern civilized life. Therefore it is called avidya, not education, contra-education. (break) ...says, make life very comfortable. Just produce little food grains, and there are fruits. Even if you don't produce food grain, you can live on fruits and milk. No. The milk source? Cut down their throat, cows, and eat the meat. There is no need of food grain or fruit. This is civilization. And thus becoming duṣkṛtina, all the brain is being utilized for sinful life. Duṣkṛtina means intelligence applied for sinful life. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious. But their merit has been applied for acting sinfully. Therefore they are called duṣkṛtina. (break) "...by the orders of Christ we shall commit all kinds of sin, and Christ has taken contract. He will take our sin." That's all. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do they not say like that?

Devotee: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: "Poor Christ, he has to suffer for all the sinful activities, and he wanted to save us from sin, gave his injunction. That we shall not care." This is Christian religion. And therefore they have to close down this hypocrisy. (break) That Melbourne meeting, some of you were with me? No. In Melbourne I was invited by some, many priests. Twice I was invited. The first meeting I am speaking. So there was a good meeting, all respectable priests. So they asked me that "Why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" So I asked them that "What you have not done?" (laughter) So they were not very much pleased. But I, in the open meeting, I said, "What you have not done? You have done all sinful activities. Therefore you have to close down this hypocrisy now." That was my answer, "What you have not done?" Now they are sorry, "What we have done?" That is called ignorance. They have done everything all sinful. They do not know that is sinful. (break) ...Bible, "Thou shall not kill," and they will not obey. That is sinful. Everything is there clearly, Ten Commandments, but they will not do that. Willful sinners. One may act sinfully, unaware. But they are willfully sinners. They know this is sin, and still they are doing.

Devotee: But they don't think it is sin, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: They don't think it is sin.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Viṣṇujana: They say that...

Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals.

Viṣṇujana: Yeah, that's the problem.

Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals.

Viṣṇujana: They want to gratify their senses, and they'll do anything and even misinterpret the scripture to gratify their senses.

Prabhupāda: That means a set of rascals, going on in the name of religion. So how long they can cheat others? So you can cheat all for some time, and you can cheat some for all time, but not all for all time. (laughter)

Devotee: Is it all right to... You mentioned that to work hard is like... Because we're in the material world we have to work, this is the condemnation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You have to work, but minimize work.

Devotee: I was wondering if it was all right to work hard for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To minimize this material work means the energy should be employed for Kṛṣṇa. Minimize work this, means this side, material side. And save time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the principle. And if you are busy from the early morning to go to the working place and up to ten o'clock, then where you get for chanting, time? So therefore you save time from material activities and engage it for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is life.

Rāmeśvara: But the Communists, they also argue that this Christian religion is hypocrisy. It has not brought peace on earth. So they also want to abolish it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rāmeśvara: They also want to abolish religion, this Christian religion, and just have a...

Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. They have got bad experience from this so-called Christian religion, and they have no information that there is need of religion. Therefore they want to abolish. Everyone has got bad experience, and they are a little forward, that "Finish it." That's it.

Rāmeśvara: They say that the problems of the world are so great that unless people have allegiance to one world government, they will not be able to be solved.

Prabhupāda: That we say, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme governor...

Rāmeśvara: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: ...and take shelter of Him. Then everything will be solved. That we are preaching.

Rāmeśvara: They have missed that point.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya. "Only master is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is servant." Accept this principle and everything will be all right immediately. Immediately. If you study the whole Bhagavad-gītā, where is any word there which you can refute or which is not good for you? Study whole Bhagavad-gītā. All practical and very congenial for human civilization. Kṛṣṇa teaches from the very beginning, "First of all learn what you are. You are not this body. You are within this body." Now, who knows this? This is the first study. As soon as you understand that "I am not this body, I am within this body," immediate you understand what is spirit. Then your spiritual knowledge advances further. But these rascals, they do not know what is spirit, what is spiritual knowledge.

Devotee: They think that cows don't have a spirit.

Prabhupāda: They may think like anything, rascal. Do you believe that?

Devotee: Yes, they have spirit...

Prabhupāda: No, you believe it or not? They say, but whether you believe it or not?

Devotee: The spirit soul makes the body work. That's evidence that the spirit's inside.

Prabhupāda: Yes, how you can say there is no spirit? You have got spirit. Your body is moving. You are walking. You are eating. You are talking. And as soon as the spirit is gone, then it is dead matter, bulk. The hand is there; it will not work. The leg is there; it will not work. So where is the difference between the cow's body and your body? Come to human reasoning. You say there is no spirit, so how you say? Where is the difference between your body and cow's body?

Jayatīrtha: They say that the cow has no soul. Therefore we can eat the cow. But now they say that the man has no soul, so the conclusion is...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jayatīrtha: Previously they said the cow has no soul, so therefore we can eat the cow. But now they say that man has no soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore kill in the womb. That is killing, the abortion, killing. That means advance of... advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. Why? The beginning is that there is no spiritual knowledge. Therefore the so-called advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. That is due to want of that basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees chant japa) (break)

Bhakta-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhakta-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard. But still he is performing so many activities, material activities.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What can he do? He has no other engagement. (laughter) He doesn't know that there is another engagement, spiritual life. He doesn't know. Ignorant. Karma-samjïā. That I was discussing, this ignorance. He thinks working is life, that's all. Hard work.

Jagadīśa: Now he's working hard to put a ball in the hole.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows, "This is life." There is no other alternative. That is his ignorance. He cannot do it. Still, he is doing. You see? You know that when there was electric failure in New York? The statistics is that more women became pregnant. (laughter) But what they will do in the darkness? "Let us have sex." That's all. (laughter) (break)

 

Room Conversation                                           March 9, 1975                                                                       385739

Prabhupāda: Yes, social work, this is the best social work. People are in ignorance, and we are giving them knowledge. Is it not the best social work? If you keep the man in ignorance and if you give him something... Just like your child. You simply give him to eat but no education. Then what is the benefit? Is that very good nice work, that you give your children nice food to become robust but no education? Is that very good nice work? People are, in this human form of life, especially meant for understanding God. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. So they are keeping them in darkness and teaching them technology, how to make cycle. That's all. The life is meant for understanding God, and they have been educated for making cycle and sewing machine. This is going on. Therefore there will be disaster. It is already there. Just like in America or any Western country, they have manufactured so many cars, and now they are flattering the Arabians, "Please give us oil." You see? Power crisis. And if they stop manufacturing, there is unemployment. And if they increase car, there is power shortage. So this dilemma, this modern civilization will have to meet this dilemma because they are going against the laws of God.

Reporter: You are not suggesting that all of that is just cut away completely, but that people...?

Prabhupāda: No, you require... First thing, you require to eat. So Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient grain, food grain, so that both the animal and the man, they will eat and become robust, stout, and strong. And they will be capable of working. So that is the first thing. But who is producing food grains? They are producing motor tires. When there is scarcity of food, will these motor tires help us? We shall eat motor tires? This is going on, so-called industrialization, producing unnecessary thing which is not required, and they are neglecting producing food grains. And I have estimated--I am traveling all over the world--that there are so much space even now that if you produce food grain, you can feed ten times of the population as it is. But they will not do that. They will create motorcars, and the whole street is congested. At any moment there can be accident, and if you have to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles off. Because the motorcar is there. I am diseased. I want to consult a doctor. So he must be in neighborhood. But I have to go thirty miles. And maybe, before going to the doctor, I may be finished, by accident. Anartha, it is called anartha. Anartha means unwanted things. So Bhāgavata says,

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

Because the rascals are simply creating unnecessary necessities of life, so their only remedy is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. But people do not know it. Therefore vidvān, Vyāsadeva, he has made the sātvata-saṁhitā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, anartha upaśamam, to stop them acting nonsensically, simply producing problem.

Reporter: So it's just a question of when.

Prabhupāda: The book is there. You learn, and you be learned. It is already there.

Reporter: Do you foresee a time coming when people will realize...

Prabhupāda: It has already come, disaster.

Reporter: No, I mean a time coming when disaster is averted and people realize...

Prabhupāda: No, unless you take the real instruction, how you can stop disaster? You must agree to take the real instruction. If you don't agree, then you suffer. That is your business. But the remedy is there. The instruction is there. Just like Bhagavad-gītā says, "Produce food grain." The remedy is there. But you will not produce food grain; you will produce motorcar. Then you must suffer.

 

 

Morning Walk                                               March 11, 1975, London                                                           385872

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. First, second, third. Then fourth is the śūdras. And the fifth, caṇòālas: no Vedic culture. They are caṇòālas. So the Europeans, they were kṣatriyas originally. On account of Paraśurāma's massacre process, they fled from India to European side. And Greece and Rome, they were given--I think, Turkey also--given to two sons of Mahārāja Yayāti. They refused the order of the father. The father was very licentious. So he begged from two sons that "You give me your youth." They refused. So therefore they were banished in this part of the world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Into England.

Prabhupāda: Not England. Greece, Rome, Turkey. Next to India, they were civilized. So European race mostly come from that part. Caucasian. Kaśyapa Muni. Central India. Er, central... What is called? Asia, Asia.

Brahmānanda: Why it took Paraśurāma twenty-one times to defeat?

Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. (break) Everyone can be purified, even the caṇòālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees laughing)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Brahmānanda: He was recording like this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, just the last few minutes. (laughter) I was listening though, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, will the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will take over the world eventually?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (1): Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali-yuga, in this Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible, because only the fortunate persons will take.

Devotee (1): I mean, but will the power of the kṣatriyas will be in the hands of the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons sometime during this Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take? (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        385907

Brahmānanda: ...Calcutta, on the Maidan, there's that big building, that big memorial. Is that...

Prabhupāda: Oh, Victoria Memorial.

Brahmānanda: That was built for, the king when he was coming?

Prabhupāda: No, that was built in memory of Victoria. It was done, imitating the Taj Mahal. It took twenty years. Sir Rajendranath Mukherjee of Martin Company, he took the contract. And after finishing, he got this title, "Sir." And when it was being constructed, I went to the top by crossing the scaffolding.

Brahmānanda: So you must have been very brave.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am still brave. (laughter) Otherwise how could I come alone to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I am still brave.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Some astrologer told that "This boy, for executing his purpose, he will enter into the fire." Yes. (break) ...recently, in our Bombay affair, it was fight with the fire. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.

Devotee (2): Even if we present a Kṛṣṇa conscious candidate, the people will still choose a rogue to lead them, even if we present a candidate who is Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Canada we have got already temples.

Brahmānanda: Candidate, someone to stand for the election.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. Unless you turn the mass of people Kṛṣṇa conscious, what you will do there? Suppose one man is elected. All demons. What he will do there? Therefore the first thing is that turn the people Kṛṣṇa conscious, and when they will vote, that is shortened (certain?) Otherwise, it is waste of time. (end)

 

 

 

Morning Walk                                                March 13, 1975, Iran                                                                  385939

Prabhupāda: ...imaṁ rājarṣayo vidhuḥ. Rājarṣayaḥ, it means the saintly kings. These... Bhagavad-gītā it is said, in the Fourth Chapter, it is meant for the saintly kings, because if the king is saintly, and if he understands the philosophy of life, then he can turn the whole picture. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the palace? That is the palace?

Atreya Åṣi: That is the palace.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice.

Atreya Åṣi: The inside is full of gold.

Prabhupāda: Heaps? Some... Huh? Full of gold.

Atreya Åṣi: Gold, yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So in Iran there is gold mine? No.

Atreya Åṣi: There is some, yes. Iran has the richest copper mines, oil, richest oil, the second in the world, the...

Prabhupāda: Who is the first?

Atreya Åṣi: Saudia Arabia. But we have gas, natural gas, the richest. It's so easy to take out this oil and gas. So easy, like..., easier than gold.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is more valuable than gold.

Atreya Åṣi: Yes. And then they have many, many minerals... (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                 March 13, 1975, Teheran                                                             385949

Prabhupāda: ...Meeting was very successful. You were present in Delhi? Very, very successful. All big, big men came, and they realized. We are going to have again that for two days. That is being arranged.

Paramahaṁsa: In Delhi, yes. That will be nice.

Prabhupāda: And who is thinking in that way...? We are thinking like that. Keep it covered.

Paramahaṁsa: On the table there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Child talking and Prabhupāda says something in Hindi) Dr. Ghora (?), you can say. The aim should be saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. But if we don't care for this proposition... They do not know what is God, neither we don't want to satisfy Him, "He may be satisfied or not satisfied. Let us go on with our business." (Hindu)

Indian man (1): A lot of dangers will be there. We'll be putting ourself into trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in trouble. Even last war, when the trouble was too much, they began to go to the church. Even Churchill. And one gentleman--he is my Godbrother in Germany--he told me, after this war many German men and women became atheist. Everyone went to the church and prayed. Especially women prayed for return of their husband, brother, father. And nobody returned. So they thought, "There is no God. So forget about all these things." People became atheist. So this risky civilization is going on. They don't want to know what is God, neither they want to satisfy Him. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just the opposite, that "Here is God. You satisfy Him." That's all. "Never mind what you are, but by your occupational duty you satisfy Him. That is perfection." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And this is taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa ultimately said this: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. In the beginning He said, yat karoṣi yat juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam: "Do it for Me." Yat karoṣi. It doesn't matter what you are doing. And very good work or bad work or anything, when He says, yat karoṣi, means "Whatever you are doing, do it, but the result give Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. This is His desire. And at last again He said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and if somebody would say that "Simply I have to satisfy You? Then I have to satisfy others also. If I do not do, then I will be sinful," that, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: "Don't worry. If there is any reaction, not doing other duty, simply to surrender to Me, and if there is sinful reaction, then I'll give you protection. Don't worry." This is the conclusion. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all, without any malinterpretation. Everyone is interpreting in his own way. But we are not interpreting. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And it is becoming effective. Bhagavad-gītā was studied in the Western countries since a long time, since seventeenth century--but not like this. Before me, many swamis, yogis, they came to the Western countries, and most of them spoke on Bhagavad-gītā, but not a single person was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But now they are becoming by hundreds because the Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is. This is the comparison. We have got Christians, Mohammedans, then Buddhist, Africans. Everyone we have got in our society, all very devout executor of our mission. Now here is Mr. Attar. Now he is Atreya Åṣi. Whatever he is earning, he is spending for Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. He is trying to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So in the dictionary it is stated, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god." He is not a Hindu god; He is God. But He appeared in India. He remained in the Vedic culture. Lord Buddha was also Hindu. And he was in Vedic culture. Later on he spread his own mission. That is also Hindu culture, ahiṁsā, nonviolence. Lord Buddha... keśava dhṛta-buddha. The same Kṛṣṇa, His powerful avatāra, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We offer our prayers to Lord Buddha. Christ was also for twelve years in India. He... Christ, the word Christ and kristo, there is similarity. He also propagated love of God. That is Kṛṣṇa. So we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you are all Indians. It is your duty to see that the movement is pushed forward. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: "By your life, by your money, by your good intelligence and by your words." Our mission is to spread the words of Kṛṣṇa. We don't manufacture anything. Why should we manufacture? Everything is there perfectly. What Kṛṣṇa says, it is perfect. If I manufacture something, that is imperfect because I am imperfect. So how can I speak perfectly, or how can I give perfect knowledge? It is not possible because I am defective, I commit mistake, I am sometimes illusioned. Why sometimes? Practically always. Everyone is thinking that he is this body--he is Indian, he is American, he is Hindu, he is Muslim. That is illusion. He is not this body. Similarly, our senses are imperfect, and so long we are in the imperfect condition, if we teach, that means we cheat. I have no perfect knowledge, and still, I am trying to teach. That is cheating. Nobody should try to preach with imperfect knowledge. That is cheating. That is stated in the śāstra: bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsā and kāraṇa-patāvā. We are qualified with these imperfections, and therefore we cannot manufacture. Somebody says "in my opinion." So what is the value of your opinion? You are imperfect. If the child says "in my opinion," what is the value? Therefore we don't say, "in my opinion," "our opinion." We say "Kṛṣṇa says this," that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is... He says,

āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra ei deśa

yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

He says that "All of you, you become guru." Just like I am requesting all Indians outside that I am alone trying to spread this Indian culture, why not you also join? You also become guru. So how to become guru? Not that simply by advertising that one has become guru all of a sudden, no. Guru means, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. Whomever you meet, you just instruct him in what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. You become guru. It is not very difficult to become guru, provided we simply preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That we are doing. We do not say that we are perfect, we have become God, or we have so many, so many magic jugglery. No, we have nothing to do, that. No magic, no jugglery, no God. Simply to become servant of God, and whomever we meet, we speak the words of God, that's all. Then you become guru. This is our mission. That we may be imperfect, that doesn't matter. We are imperfect. Just like this child, he is imperfect. Everyone knows. But if he says, "My father has informed me that this is microphone," so this knowledge of "is microphone" is perfect because he has received from the father, experienced father. And before hearing from the father, he may not know that this is microphone, but since he has heard from the father that this is microphone, and if he says to others that "My father has said, 'This is microphone,' " then people will accept this is perfect knowledge. So we should follow this instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. So you, every one of you, can become guru. You may say that "I am not interested to become a guru," but Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that if you are not interested, that is not very good. You should be interested. You must be guru. That is success of your life. You can speak the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, even to your family. That also guru. You are actually guru. The father or the head of the family is guru to the children, to the wife. In India still, the wife addresses the husband as pati-guru. And father is guru. That is natural. So why don't you become real guru to your wife, to your children, and instruct Bhagavad-gītā as it is? This is our mission. You sit down in the evening, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and teach little instruction from the Bhagavad-gītā. See how the life changes. Is that very difficult task? Boliye.

Indian man (2): No, no.

Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajïa, in the rājasūya yajïa one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajïa many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaìkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa.

Nitai:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati

bhaktiṁ mayi parāṁ kṛtvā

mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ

"For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Next? Na ca tasmān...

Nitai:

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be anyone more dear."

Prabhupāda: So this is the easiest process, that you learn Bhagavad-gītā. Don't misinterpret. There is no question of misinterpretation. They, by their, what is called, crippled mind, they misinterpret. Otherwise there is no question of. Where is the difficulty to understand? So Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who preaches this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, He is My dearmost person." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then that is saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. That is wanted. Boliye. Any question? (Pause) No question? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. There must be paripraśna, yes or no?

Indian man (3): Well, the question was the satisfaction of the God, that we satisfy our Lord. Now, what are the means to satisfy the Lord?

Prabhupāda: That He says: that you preach, you become guru. That is already explained. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati. That is... He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Everything is there. Where is the difficulty? If I say that "You do this. I will (be) satisfied," you do that; you will satisfy me. What is the difficulty?

Indian man (4): And the part where you, which you said to preach Kṛṣṇa's... to attain the satisfaction of..., but what you have already said, that one should first know himself first, basic...

Prabhupāda: Himself?

Indian man (4): What Kṛṣṇa stands and what Kṛṣṇa means in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you...?

Indian man (4): Yes. When we say we start preaching, so first one... somebody has to know himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (4): Then he can come forward for preaching.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you know yourself? Why you are in darkness? Kṛṣṇa says everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam. In this body there is the occupier of the body. So if you think yourself that you are this body, that is your wrong. You try to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." That's the fact. So this human life is meant for that purpose. So why should you not do it? Why should you keep yourself in darkness? That is very risky. If I keep myself in the darkness like cats and dogs, that "I am this body," then my life is very risky. By nature's way we are given this opportunity, human form of life. If we do not understand our position, if we remain in the same category, bodily concept of life, then we are missing the chance. After all, you have to change this body. It is not permanent settlement that you shall remain Indian, you shall remain American. No. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to change. Now what kind of body you are going to get, that you have to understand. That is responsibility. So this child, this boy, if he remains in darkness that he will continue this childhood body, and father, mother will take care of him--"I don't require to take any education"--then future life, when he will be young man, he will be not nicely posted for want of education. Then how miserable it will be. Similarly, if we don't take care of this education that "I am not this body, my future body will be different, and if I do not know what kind of different body I'll have to accept..." Suppose we accept some lower grade of body. Then what is my future? So if we don't understand this philosophy as Kṛṣṇa teaches, asmin dehe dehinaḥ, "Within this body there is the occupier, soul," so if you do not understand, that is very risky life. Nature's way must go on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. We cannot control over the nature's way. And we get our next body according to the association of different modes of nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ asya. Everything is there. Why do you not study? Why you remain in darkness? What is this life? Is that very good life? You, what is your name?

Atreya Åṣi: Mr. Sahani.

Prabhupāda: Sahani, yes. Mr. Sahani, do you think is that very nice life, to remain in darkness for our future life?

Mr. Sahani: Not at all.

Prabhupāda: That's it. (says something in Hindi regarding daṇòavat) (chuckles) That is very good. That is our process. Sāìkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. The Vaiṣṇavas, they chanted with a numerical strength, sāìkhya-pūrvaka. Sāìkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. Nāma means chanting of the holy name. Gana means also prayer. And also daṇòavat. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he took vow that "So many times I will offer daṇòavat." So these things are... If this child simply offers daṇòavat to the Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu, so it will not go in vain. Even if he does not know any śāstra, simply offers obeisances, that will also be taken into credit. It is so nice thing. Sāìkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ kālāvasāni-kṛtau. So therefore Deity worship is recommended. So if anyone does not know anything, if he simply comes and offers obeisances, that is also nice. Therefore Deity worship is important for the common man. Even if he does not know anything, if he simply comes and offer obeisances, if he little dances with kīrtana, everything will be taken into credit. Then one day he will become a devotee. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. The jïānavān, the so-called jïānavān they do not care for the Deity--puffed up. But Kṛṣṇa says this class of jïānavān, after many, many births, when he'll be actually jïānavān, he will offer obeisance. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. It is so difficult and easy. A jïānavān, after many, many births, come to this conclusion, "Here is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. I offer my obeisances." And the same obeisances can be offered by a child without being jïānavān, but the result is the same. If you touch fire after studying the physics and chemistry, and without studying physics and chemistry if you touch fire, the result is the same. So our request to everyone is not to keep oneself in darkness and spoil the boon of human life, but try to understand your position and try to understand how to satisfy the Supreme. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the summary of all Vedic literatures. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if you try to preach, then you become most recognized person of Kṛṣṇa. Na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu kaścit me priya kṛtta... And our mission is to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. And He says, "In this way I become most satisfied." Then where is the difficulty? (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        386000

Guest: It's just people... For example, could the president of the Coca-Cola company find the way to Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone can serve. Cola company?

Guest: Coca-Cola company.

Prabhupāda: Coca-Cola.

Guest: Somebody that manufactures a product which is basically destructive.

Prabhupāda: No. Coca-Cola company... Of course, we advise... Kṛṣṇa advises, yat karoṣi. It includes Coca-Cola company. But He said yat karoṣi: "Whatever you do." Kṛṣṇa said, "Whatever you do." So that includes all kinds of activities. But will the Coca-Cola company agree to give the profit to Kṛṣṇa? Then he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. The profit he will enjoy for his wine and woman, that's all, not for Kṛṣṇa. That is the difficulty.

Guest: Can the profit of the manufacture of something which is manufactured purely for profit be turned to good?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gives to Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation                                          March 13, 1975, Iran                                                             386010

Prabhupāda: How long you have come here in Iran?

Ambassador: Nice to see you again. Not that I have felt that far away.

Prabhupāda: You are looking little reduced than before, in health.

Ambassador: Oh, perhaps slightly older.

Prabhupāda: You are not as old as I am. What is your age?

Ambassador: I am fifty-six.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are just like my child. My first child was born 1921. What is your birth date?

Ambassador: That was three years earlier. So there you are.

Prabhupāda: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education, English court, English-manufactured goods, in this way.

Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?

Prabhupāda: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset.

Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia--he was governor of Bengal--he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all.

Ambassador: But God uses whatever material is there and He used him.

Prabhupāda: No, it was God's desire. You see? Without His desire, otherwise how such a vast British power could be driven away by the noncooperation movement? Of course, it was very nicely planned because the Britishers were ruling over India by the cooperation of the Indian.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So when that cooperation was withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; they voluntarily surrendered to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled up means the last parting kick was partition--Pakistan and India. And they partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong. That is going on. They are very good politicians. So after all, it is all... There is a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanaṁ ca

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ

vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd ca aham

Kṛṣṇa said that "I am in everyone's heart." Sarvasya. Sarvasya ca aham hṛdi. Hṛdi means the heart. Sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am there." So He is witnessing everything. So Britishers would have been... They were accepted by the Indians very nicely. People liked, because after the Mohammedan period, when the Britishers came, they did something which was very, very nice for the Indians, and the Indians, they liked them very much. Later on, they became too much greedy. For their own men they wanted to sacrifice everything Indian. So that Jalianwala-bagh. Then the Gandhi came and took this vow that "The Britishers must go, quit India." So Britishers got a very good opportunity for world unity under British Empire. But their only policy was that to exploit others and enrich London. That was their bad policy, yes. They should have ruled for the benefit of the people. Then British rule was very nice.

Ambassador: If they hadn't had such a guilty conscience themselves...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: ...they wouldn't have left easily.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was no need. Every country requires good government. So if somebody gives good government and keeps the people nice, happy, and people hasn't got any interest that the... Now they have made like that. Formerly, at least in India, they didn't care whether it is being ruled by the Mohammedans or by the Englishmen or foreign... They wanted peaceful life, that's all. So the Mohammedans, they made their home in India, the Moguls. They were not exploiting India and taking the money outside. Although the Moguls were very luxurious, but they were spending money in India, India's money in India. And, of course, they accuse, the Mohammedan government was very bad. But I think if it was so bad, how they could rule over India for eight hundred years? And in those days Indians were in their own culture. They did not lose their culture, Hindu culture. The Britishers peacefully killed the Hindu culture, Vedic culture, yes.

Ambassador: I saw where they killed it much more effectively, and that was in Ceylon.

Prabhupāda: Ceylon, oh.

Ambassador: India's too big to kill, so it lived. But Ceylon was practically finished. There is nothing of its own left. They had to reinvent it after they got rid of the British.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: They'd lost their dance. They'd lost their... Everything really national had gone.

Prabhupāda: That was not...

Ambassador: Even Buddhism had gone. It was revived by foreigners.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Dutch. Dutch people, there were.

Ambassador: Germans especially. But now may I ask you while I have the chance? You have had so much to do with bringing the dharma to the West. What is your idea? What is your mission? It seems to me, in many ways there is a transfer of the essential spirit going West, because the interest is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: And what is left in the East is so often just the materialism imitated from the West among many young people now.

Prabhupāda: Where, in the East? Yes.

Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover taking place.

Prabhupāda: Hm, yes.

Ambassador: Do you see it like that?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.

Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. The material life means animal life.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?

Paramahaṁsa: Two or three.

Prabhupāda: In where?

Paramahaṁsa: Caracas.

Prabhupāda: Caracas, yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like dead.

Ambassador: I had two crocodiles in my bath in Delhi for a month.

Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā. You like them very much?

Ambassador: Given by the chief minister of Rajastan, and I had to get them to Canada.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can love most things, but not crocodiles.

Prabhupāda: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na ka..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life--equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.

Ambassador: Of course.

Prabhupāda: Not possible. If they unite, if they try to unite on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is possible. Otherwise not possible. But we are all part and parcel of God. Accidentally, or somehow or other, we are now all differently dressed although we are one. They have to come to this understanding. Upādhi, designation. Now just like you are Canadian; I am Indian. Then I was just... In the noon I was thinking about the, what is called, goo goo, dodo? Do? The bird? Do? What is called? There is one class of bird, do?

Atreya Åṣi: Doves, doves.

Prabhupāda: So there are doves, there are pigeons, there are sparrows, there are crows. Now Iran, the same doves, same... Why they are not called "Iranian sparrow"? Why they are called only sparrow?

Ambassador: (chuckles) It's only people.

Prabhupāda: So simply we have designated, "Iranian," "Indian," and "Canadian," "German," this, that. So we have to give up this designation. Then there will be unity. Otherwise not. But they are very much proud of this designation. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, when one is completely free from designation. The designation is material. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. And the whole world is being ruled by designation. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that." Ahaṁ mameti, this is.

Ambassador: There is a hierarchy of consciousness, of course. But it's not...

Prabhupāda: So that consciousness should be without designation. If I try to develop my consciousness with designation, it will not be effective. It will not be effective at least in the matter of advancing spiritual consciousness. That we have to give up. Now in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we have got men from all parts of the world, but they are not thinking in terms of their original national designation. They are not thinking. They do not think that they are American or they are Indian or Canadian or African or Hindu, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vai..., nothing of the sort.

Ambassador: Of course, there can be ambition that is essentially ego attached to an idea of achieving consciousness also.

Prabhupāda: That consciousness will not help him. That will rather check him.

Ambassador: Yes, exactly.

Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram. At the time of death, if I die with designation, then I will have to accept again the body. So the mind is the criterion, contamination. We get different types of body on account of mind being contaminated.

Ambassador: Contaminated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to accept similar body, by nature's way. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. Because the mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, he got this body. There are three qualities: sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now you mix up. By first mixing it becomes nine, and again mixing up, it becomes eighty-one. And each quality, there are thousands and thousands of variety. And that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of forms of life. So it is very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education, that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different body, and in this way he remains materially entangled. And the real relief is to get him out of this bodily concept of life and advance in spiritual concept of...

Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to get out of this material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. This is required, in Bhagavad-gītā. After giving up this body no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education. And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. (break) ...in his original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that--to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is...

Ambassador: Well, this in one form or another is the aim of any true tradition.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? True?

Ambassador: Tradition.

Prabhupāda: Tradition?

Ambassador: Religion.

Prabhupāda: No. Tradition, religion, they are all material. They are also all designation. I am thinking I am Hindu, you are thinking you are Christian, he is thinking as Buddhist--these are all designation.

Ambassador: Within each of these there is the esoteric.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is material. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. "Give up all this type of false religion." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That means come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ekam, only one. So unless one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is in trouble of this material condition. And our difficulty is that when we want to convince another person about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he thinks that "I am Hindu, I am Christian, I am Mohammedan, so they are trying to proselytize me." That is the difficulty.

Ambassador: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first-class which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what is the designation. But where is that happening?

Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think...

Prabhupāda: No. The influence should be only Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of "Kṛṣṇa"--God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities--nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Śaìkara, the païcopāsana. But still, Śaìkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms. The goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, the sun, then... Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper. Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted--Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. Éśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: "There is no more superior form or superior authority than Me." And that is confirmed by Lord Brahmā. Éśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Éśvaraḥ means controller. There are different grades of controller, but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam: "Unto Me alone." (to devotee:) What is that?

Parivrājakācārya: It is apple juice.

Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is scientific, authorized. People has to give little attention. Then they will understand. Therefore we are publishing so many books, only about Kṛṣṇa. In every page you will find "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." Either in Kṛṣṇa book or in Caitanya-caritāmṛta or in the Bhāgavata or in The Nectar of Devotion or in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, the word is Kṛṣṇa. That is simply explained in different way.

Ambassador: What does the word actually mean? Kṛ is the root for "making," isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, kṛṣ. Kṛṣ means karṣati, "attraction" or " Kṛṣṇa." "Cultivation." Just like cultivator, he, digging the earth, that is also karṣati. And there is another word in Bhagavad-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhāni indriyāṇi..., karsati. Find out this verse. Manaḥ-saṣṭhāni indriyāṇi prakṛti-sthani karṣati. Fifteenth Chapter. Karṣati. That is from kṛṣ.

Ambassador: Kṛṣ, then, has attractiveness and it has cultivator.

Prabhupāda: And cultivating, yes.

Ambassador: Yes. In Greek my name is also "cultivate." In Greek the origin of my name is "cultivate." Gheragoss.(?)

Prabhupāda: And this Greek work is kristo. There is a word in Greek. It is called kristo. And Kṛṣṇa is sometimes pronounced by ordinary man as Krsta. And that kristo word means "love," if I am not wrong, that Greek word. And from that kristo the word Christ has come.

Ambassador: Karitas(?), yes.

Prabhupāda: So there is some connection of Kṛṣṇa with these things. What is that?

Ambassador: There are so many parallels between Kṛṣṇa and Christ.

Prabhupāda: So many.

Ambassador: "Born in the cave." Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Nitai:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke

jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution--philanthropy, international and the United Nation--the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Kṛṣṇa solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love.

Ambassador: Yes, it's the interattractiveness even in a planetary scale that holds the world.

Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives very shortcut formula that "You sit together, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be solved." Very simple thing: "Sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That also they will not do. There is no loss. Let us make an experiment--that also we are not executing. What is the loss? If we sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we are not losing anything. If there is some gain, why not make an experiment? So if you propose this to the United Nation, he'll think of me, "A crazy fellow."

Ambassador: Like we did together in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You have seen it. They were very much eager. They were very much eager: "Swamiji continue." And the others, like Communist and others, they became upset. I have seen many big, big officers. They were chanting, returning from the office in the office dress, and they were chanting and dancing. And you have seen the crowd, twenty thousand, thirty thousand people. The same thing happened in Calcutta. Now the government did not give us again that land. Yes. Last time when we held that conference in Delhi...

Paramahaṁsa: On the LIC Grounds?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. They gave us that Tal Kotara Park, you know? That is in the jungle. Nobody could reach there, and they gave us place there. (Ambassador laughs) Still, there were not less ten thousand people. It was not easily approachable. The motorcar cannot go. You have to leave your car three miles away to come there.

Ambassador: I know the place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know very well. You are (were?) in Delhi.

Ambassador: It is a difficult thing to get to.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they gave us place. At the last moment they rejected. First of all they gave. Then, at the last moment, the municipality said, "No, this land cannot be given to any religious function." Rejected. And offered, "If you like, you can take this place." So we had no other alternative to accept it. We advertised that "We are going to hold this ceremony," and the authority rejected at the eleventh hour and offered the Tal Kotara place. We had to accept it. And the government indirectly giving us so many hindrances in India. Yes. They do not like. One of the important member of the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company, that India is naturally inclined to Kṛṣṇa. And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful.

Ambassador: What was your connection with McGill? I heard from...

Prabhupāda: McGill. McGill I was...

Ambassador: You preached (?) first in McGill?

Prabhupāda: No, I was lecturing only.

Atreya Åṣi: Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's (break)

Prabhupāda: He sent his first book...

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I think I have given this hint in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

 

Room Conversation                                         March 14, 1975, Iran                                                              386327

Prabhupāda: No, attachment to the body is not bad. Just like you have got a nice car. So you have got attachment for it. But you must know that you are not the car. That everyone can... A child can understand. But because I have got attachment for something, it does not mean I am that thing. I have got attachment for so many things. That is natural. Anything I possess, I have got attachment. But that does not mean I am that thing. But here the mistake is that because we have got attachment for the body, I am identifying myself as the body. That is ignorance, illusion.

 

Room Conversation                                       March 21, 1975, Calcutta                                                         387152

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ABCD. Then you can go further on. If you read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, there is everything explained, everything. All problems are solved. Any problem you propose, there is solution in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now this poverty, as you raised this question, poverty, so what is written there in the Bhagavad-gītā? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is instruction, that "You produce food grain." Now, suppose Calcutta is a big city. Who is producing food grain? Everyone is trying to purchase food grain. But who is thinking that "Wherefrom the food grain will come?" Just see the foolishness of the people. You have to produce food grain. And there is ample facility. But throughout the whole world there are hundreds and thousands of cities. Now, who is producing food grain? The solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. He said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said, "By motor tire bhavanti bhūtāni." Bhavanti means flourish. Everyone is engaged in producing motor tire, car, and they are flattering the Arabians for petrol. The same energy, if it would have been engaged in producing food grain, then where is the poverty? (Someone enters) Oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya.

Trivikrama: These men have just come from America.

Prabhupāda: (Says something in Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A new Back to Godhead. New issue, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 750,000 copies printed. Our party ordered 200,000.

Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge--these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.

Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize--what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?

Guest: The whole nation is worker?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇòha-khaïja-nyāya. Aṇòha-khaïja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Yes, (Bengali) ...really classless society. They should not be proud that "I am brāhmaṇa." No. As you are required, as much, the śūdra is also required. It is not that only the brāhmaṇas are required. This is a very scientific movement. (Bengali) It is not a bogus sentimental thing. It is a very scientific movement. It is not so-called yogi and swami and everything equal. And where is equality?

Guest: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a scientific movement?

Prabhupāda: Most scientific.

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ

yatantaś ca dṛòha-vratāḥ

namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā

nitya-yuktā upāsate

Guest: (Bengali) to realize the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: Realize the Supreme, that is the first and foremost aim, but at the same time, to keep the whole human society in perfect happiness, according to the direction of God. Just like I told you that Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you want to keep the living entities, both men and animal, you must arrange for their nice fooding. Who can deny this philosophy? But they are saying that poverty should be removed, and we must acquire food for the suffering and starving. But what they are doing? They are manufacturing motor tire, the rascals.

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) There is no question of dharma. First of all we say they must live. That is our proposal. Where is the question of dharma? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Give everyone to eat sufficiently. This is our proposal.

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the actual attempt to give everyone sufficient food? Where is that attempt? And here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that? They simply passing resolution and raising funds and then eating, themself, at the cost of others. And therefore the price is increasing. One who has got money, he can pay more price, artificial. I am poor man. I have no money. You have got money. You purchase before me. Then I starve. But if there is sufficient supply of food grain, then this thing will not happen. You can distribute without any price. That was being done in India. Educated man means unemployment, is it not? So-called education means creating unemployment. They will go with application, "Give me some clerical post, some this post, that post, that post." This is education.

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Mūòhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, God, then you are a mūòha. So how he will adjust things? He himself is a mūòha. A mūòha means rascal, ass. Therefore our conclusion is that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious, he is a mūòha. He does not know anything. He will not be able to do anything. Therefore this matter was entrusted to the brāhmaṇa to give direction. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇaḥ: "One who knows the Supreme, he is brāhmaṇa." And he takes advice and gives others direction. (Bengali) Why do they go to the bhaṭṭācārya? And he knows what is the action and reaction. That was the system of the society. (Bengali) Nobody is interested. They are simply interested in politics.

                                                                                                                                                                        387214

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them?

Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?

Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra. You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.

Guest: Without being...?

Prabhupāda: Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. And they are trying to lead other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down on the ditch.

Guest: And they attempt to lead others...

Prabhupāda: Blind men. Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā in the words,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta jïānā

āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ

Because they have denied the existence of God, therefore they are blind and they are engaged in sinful activities without knowing what is going to happen next in his life. Therefore mūòha, rascal. And narādhamāḥ. Narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind, because in the human form of life one could understand what is God, but he is misusing his intelligence for something else, narādhamāḥ. But if you say, "They are educated. They have got so much education. Why do you condemn them?" then the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jïānā. This so-called knowledge they have acquired, that means māyā has made them more foolish. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says,

jaòa-vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava,

jībake karaye gāòhā

He has said like that, that so far advancement of material education means that so-called educated man is becoming more, more, more an ass. Why?

anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiyā,

He is simply getting more attached to this material world, where he will not be allowed to stay. This is his foolishness. Naturally, we are sitting in this room, and if we say that "I can spare only two minutes," then will you be very much eager to decorate the room? So that warning is already there. Everyone knows that "I will not be able to stay here," and they are making skyscraper building. How foolish they are. He knows that "I will not be allowed to stay here," and he is busy whole life how to make fogscraper, skyscraper. The same example. If I say, "You cannot sit here more than few minutes," then will you be engaged how to decorate this room? You'll know naturally that "I am here for two minutes. Why shall I take, waste my time to decorate?" They are doing that actually. So are they not foolish? (Bengali)

anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiyā,

jībake karaye gāòhā

Unnecessary attachment. Next life he may be not even a human being. The skyscraper building he is doing now with so great labor and enthusiasm, and next life he may be a cat or rat in that building. How can you stop it? The nature's law will act. If you have behaved like cats and dogs and you have attachment for the building, then nature will, "All right, you become a cat and dog according to karma and you remain in this building." (end)

 

 

 

You don't distribute. You live only, till the ground and take your food. Where is the question of distribution? Whatever you can till, you take so much land. God has enough land. Why do you possess more? One acre of land is sufficient for producing your food. Why do you take more?

 

That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy… Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong… If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase?

 

... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement.

 

 

They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket--coming back to hell again, not going back to God.

 

Take to this culture and you will be happy. This is our mission. We want to make everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy"--with Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission.

 

Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins.

 

Read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, follow the rules and regulations, then your life will be successful.

 

I want to see that one disciple has understood Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. That is success. That's all.

 

So if you can make one example (break) India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India.

 

Make the whole field green, (break) sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction…

 

And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa… So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential…

 

But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow… So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation.

 

Therefore the constitution of manava-dharma or the institution of varṇāśrama must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated.

 

...saìkīrtana, then water will come. You haven't got to do anything. Otherwise the words of Gītā will be false…But we should not chant for rain. That will automatically come. But you should chant for pleasing Kṛṣṇa.

 

Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Except--this is the clear and simple truth--except chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

 

So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country.

 

But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth.

 

You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America.

 

That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam. That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then my preaching is successful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWELVE

Room Conversation                                       March 27, 1975, Mayapur                                                        387314

Jayatīrtha: O.K. (Reading) "To insure that the highest standards, including spiritual temple worship, saìkīrtana propaganda, recruitment of new devotees and life members, financial management and repayment of all debts are being adhered to."

Prabhupāda: Why debts? Debts should be avoided. Not payment, but one should not make debt.

Jayatīrtha: But that... All temples... All the temples are in debt.

Prabhupāda: Why? That's not... Debts are very wrong. (?)

Jayatīrtha: Either they owe BBT money or they owe bank money.

Prabhupāda: That is not good. Debts should be... No debts. If any temple wants to make debt, it must be sanctioned by the GBC committee.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Make it clear.

Jayatīrtha: That's nice.

Prabhupāda: Not that he whimsically, the president, and put the Society into debts, unless it is sanctioned.

Jayatīrtha: That's included in here, more or, more or less.

Prabhupāda: Make it clear: "They cannot create any debt."

Jayatīrtha: Just like to come to this festival has put everyone in debt.

Prabhupāda: That is risky. That is risky.

Rūpānuga: Be very specific about it.

Jayatīrtha: Right. The next point is to insure...

Atreya Åṣi: Let me just make sure this is understood. Any, any debts that any temple has, is going to make, has to be approved by the GBC representative.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you say debt, do you mean a loan?

Atreya Åṣi: Loan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah.

Atreya Åṣi: But...

Prabhupāda: Loan is also debt.

Atreya Åṣi: Yes. But if they are buying BBT books, if... On the books it may seem debt, but in fact he should know that he's going to pay for it in the very near fu... That you do not consider need approval, do you, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Jayatīrtha: The books are sold on consignment.

Prabhupāda: No, and that is all right. That is all right.

Jayatīrtha: If they fall behind, then it becomes a debt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's different. Thirty days pay...

Atreya Åṣi: In other words, as long as he meets the terms, it's not a debt. It's not a loan.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Atreya Åṣi: As soon as it goes over the term, it's unapproved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then a loan where you're paying on time, is that considered a debt?

Atreya Åṣi: Yes. That's a loan. That has to be approved. That has to be, as much as possible, avoided. In other words, everything you're doing, more or less, on cash basis.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Åṣi: You don't depend on tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: Otherwise, sometimes a president may leave, leaving so many debts, so many loans, so many this, so many that.

Atreya Åṣi: This is our standard of management. Listen. If the temple president doesn't understand it, teach him.

Jayatīrtha: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That's right. So all these things you write. Otherwise you forget.

Jayatīrtha: Yeah, that, we'll... The next point is to insure that the proper criterion for recommending candidates for initiation be followed...

Prabhupāda: That is being done.

Jayatīrtha: ...and to insure that the...

Prabhupāda: The president recommends, or the GBC recommends.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any fixed amount of time that one has to be in the Society to get first, hari-nāma, initiated? Because I...

Prabhupāda: That we have already fixed, six months to one year.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Six months to one year. And for brāhmaṇa initiation?

Rūpānuga: One year, you said, after that.

Prabhupāda: No, within one year. That's all. If one, within one year, one does not become to the standard, then he's unfit.

Atreya Åṣi: The recommendation here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that...

Prabhupāda: Generally by the president.

Atreya Åṣi: Yes, that the president's recommendation is overseeing, is scrutinized, by GBC, so that when Your Divine Grace gets a recommendation, it's been, by someone else, it's been checked. Do you think it's unnecessary?

Prabhupāda: It is.

Atreya Åṣi: Unnecessary. Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: If one is not personally sincere, however he is checked...

Atreya Åṣi: Yes, so this is unnecessary.

Prabhupāda: ...then he's useless. Useless.

Atreya Åṣi: In other words, an addition, "directly," directly... You know we just have to put down what Prabhupāda... Directly president can...

Prabhupāda: Generally, it is one year after. (?)

Atreya Åṣi: Put it down.

Jayatirth: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: At least not for... (?)

Atreya Åṣi: Jayatīrtha, put... "Directly goes..."

Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, after first initiation, one has to wait one year to get second initiation?

Prabhupāda: Six months.

Rūpānuga: At least six months.

Jayatīrtha: Six months after first initiation. All right. So the next role for the GBC man is to act as the designated representative of Śrīla Prabhupāda to settle all philosophic, procedural disputes which may arise and are not settled at the temple level. In other words, any philosophic question a temple president can't ans...

Prabhupāda: No, you... Eh?

Jayatīrtha: If there's some philosophic question and the temple president can't answer it, then the GBC...

Prabhupāda: Then GBC should be consulted. And if the GBC cannot answer, then I'll answer.

Jayatīrtha: Right. Or, if there's some quarrel--one man doesn't like another man, and the temple president can't solve it--then...

Prabhupāda: What is quarrel?

Jayatīrtha: ...the GBC man can solve it.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of quarrel. Quarrel is material.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. But it is the Age of Quarrel.

Prabhupāda: Quarrel is not good.

Jayatīrtha: The next point is to obtain reports from the temple presidents, financial reports, like this, to see that things are being looked up.

Prabhupāda: The general report should be submitted at least monthly.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. So "to obtain all reports on a timely basis..."

Prabhupāda: To the board of the GBC or to the individual, zonal GBC. Yes.

Jayatīrtha: We have kind of a system outlined in here, how reports can be done. It's a technical thing, but...

Prabhupāda: But they have that everyone is chanting sixteen rounds, everyone is following the principles, "so much money received, so much money deposited in the bank."

Jayatīrtha: Right.

Prabhupāda: "And this is the balance." And these are general (?) report. That's all.

Jayatīrtha: Right. Yeah, we have...

Prabhupāda: The financial means what they have collected, what they have spent.

Jayatīrtha: Right.

Prabhupāda: And general reporting: "Yes, everyone is chanting," or "He is not chanting in spite of warning," like that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is very good.

Jayatīrtha: So we have some guidelines in here about that. So, so should I go on with this?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayatīrtha: So then the next thing, besides having a zonal responsibility, a GBC man may have a functional responsibility, like we've already discussed.

Prabhupāda: Functional, main functional responsibility is to go and see that the temple regular work is going on, the president is doing nicely, to check in this way. You can sit down in the class, in the..., and see how things are going on. That's it.

Jayatīrtha: That's it. Now, one point we've included that we haven't really done before is the idea of establishing committees and individual service...

Prabhupāda: Committee, I shall appoint also, if there is any need. Amongst the GBC, I shall pick up some members and make a committee for a particular...

Jayatīrtha: For example, we put down that there may be a regional committee.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: Just like in Europe, we have a regional committee for managing, I understand...

Prabhupāda: What is that regional co...?

Jayatīrtha: Isn't it Bhagavān, Haṁsadūta...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have said that Haṁsadūta, Bhagavān and Brahmānanda may...

Jayatīrtha: So it's a kind of regional committee for managing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: So we similarly...

Prabhupāda: That we can change also. For the time being, it is going on.

Atreya Åṣi: I think what Śrīla Prabhupāda has said to us is that if we have very close cooperation, the spirit of committee consultation always exists...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Åṣi: Like if Bhagavān dāsa is in U.S., then Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and Rūpānuga Prabhu will consult with him, like they always consult with each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Åṣi: They should always... And this spirit should go on amongst the twelve. Or if I'm in Tehran, and if there is a financial matter...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't bring politics. Then it will be ruined.

Atreya Åṣi: Yes. The spirit should be that you write me and ask me, and I will give you all the service that I can. This should come in us.

Jayatīrtha: For example, in the United States...

Atreya Åṣi: Not so much, necessarily, committees and formal...

Prabhupāda: So if a committee is necessary, it should be decided, first stage, decided by the GBC, and I'll give final sanction.

Jayatīrtha: For example, one committee that I would propose is in the United States, since we share so many similar problems and so many problems overlap...

Prabhupāda: So you... No, the GBC is already there. But that is... Committee is there, the whole committee. But for any special purpose, if committee is required...

Jayatīrtha: Another example of a kind of committee would be some projects. Say...

Prabhupāda: Project will be decided by the GBC.

Jayatīrtha: Say, the Gurukula, for example...

Prabhupāda: Now I have elected this committee in Europe because the German trouble is going on. When the German trouble is over, there is no need of committee. It is only for this particular purpose because there we have to defend court, we have to see... So two, three heads, not one head. One head may be puzzled. Committee means for special purposes. Otherwise, the standing committee, GBC, is already there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as a question...

Prabhupāda: Just like I appointed the committee to investigate...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committee is not standing. Yet similarly, a committee may be formed for some special circumstances, but otherwise the GBC committee is sufficient.

                                                                                                                                                                        387510

Rūpānuga: But now, we discussed this... We discussed this before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that you didn't... You wanted to make some more BBT members.

Prabhupāda: If I require, I can make.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason I'm bringing this up is because, heretofore, the BBT has been managed by one or two trustees, and the point is that maybe it is best that it be managed by the GBC.

Prabhupāda: So that... First of all manage these things. Then you will, it will be included in the trustees. First of all show your capacity that you have managed these things very nicely, these two things. Why there should be complaint? How you can solve it? And why the temples should be maintained by collection of the BBT? It is meant for printing and constructing temples. Why should (we) violate the purpose of the Trust? So first of all you manage these two things. Then, if you want, you can come. If the problem remains the same, then what is the use of increasing heads?

Atreya Åṣi: What is obvious is that Prabhupāda's interference has always come because we have not done our jobs right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Åṣi: He would very much like to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real purpose.

Atreya Åṣi: He would... As soon as we show that we can...

Haṁsadūta: Work together.

Atreya Åṣi: Work together and manage nicely, he wants to.

Prabhupāda: Now, so far the... Just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karandhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon, that "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: As soon as there is collection, I paid him: "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy.

                                                                                                                                                                        387561

Jayatīrtha: The agenda that we've created so far is... The first point on the agenda is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. You said that that should be our first point.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious movement means... It is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted... Just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness--originally clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Kṛṣṇa, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to purify the dirty things and then... So, to purify this, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleaning the mirror of consciousness, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is only way.

Jayatīrtha: Jaya. So that's the first point.

Prabhupāda: That is the first point.

Jayatīrtha: And the next poin...

Prabhupāda: We should know that our consciousness is now polluted. The... Exactly like this: Clear water falls down from the sky, and as soon as come in contact with the ground, it becomes muddy. You can take the water again and filter, and then again clear. Again crystal clear.

Jayatīrtha: By nature water is clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: And sometimes it can become polluted.

Prabhupāda: And the whole devotional service means ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, cleansing the dirty--politically, socially, communally, and internationally, nationally... In this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upādhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored water. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my, my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's..." This thinking is opposite Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," that's all. That is all.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Jayatīrtha: So, so the agenda...

Prabhupāda: Is that all right?

Devotees: Jaya.

Atreya Åṣi: Just applicable to myself, it's very easy to think that "Now I am in a postion of responsibility. I may be most advanced." But what your instruction is that I always think that this position of responsibility requires that I become pure, so I have to be very, very careful. I am not most advanced. I have to...

Prabhupāda: That purity process is chanting.

Atreya Åṣi: I have to chant very carefully...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Åṣi: ...and very seriously.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless.

Atreya Åṣi: Not that I'm already advanced.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless chanting, that will purify. That is the easiest process, given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ceto-da...(?) He first of all recommends cleansing the heart. And as soon as your heart is cleansed, then you become immediately purified. This is the way. So be always engaged, either in chanting or reading or preaching. Then it will be clarified.

Rūpānuga: It is actually a very easy process.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the easiest process. There is no secondary process. Chanting. And it is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the authority, param vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam. So many things will happen.

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ-kairava candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtasvādanaṁ

(sarvātma-snapanaṁ) paraṁ vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam

This is His recommendation. We haven't got to invent something. It is there already. You do it.

                                                                                                                                                                        387616

Prabhupāda: It is not a fact that by reducing the price you'll sell more.

Jayatīrtha: No, no. Not reducing the price to the public. Reducing the cost to the temple, so the temple can make more profit.

Prabhupāda: That you can do.

                                                                                                                                                                        387685

Atreya Åṣi: Karandhara's management is--I mean I'm just looking at it from another view--is worth more than two thousand dollars. So if he is getting only one...

Prabhupāda: But your management is not worth five thousand dollars?

Atreya Åṣi: Mine is worth nothing.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are giving free service? Anyone, all of my disciples, they are qualified. Their service is worth more than any thousands of... Yes. So why you are maintaining Karandhara? All of them, they are giving free service. But they are all worthy to take salary, two thousand, three thousand, five thousand...

Atreya Åṣi: Karandhara is only, what he's getting is only enough for his maintenance.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Atreya Åṣi: We are being maintained.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Maintenance... Here, everyone can earn money and maintain him, but here this expense should be sacrifice. The essential is service.

Haṁsadūta: It's his service...

Prabhupāda: Service, yes.

Haṁsadūta: It was started for that reason.

Prabhupāda: If we take payment, that is not service. That is business. That is business.

Jayatīrtha: It is, no doubt, a fact that Karandhara is not giving his full, is giving his full life as service. That is a fact. It may be taken...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our organization is to give service.

 

Morning Walk                                               April 1, 1975, Māyāpur                                                             388252

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their philosophy is that to be, in order to be happy, they have to work all day long.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is your philosophy. You are rascals, but we are not working. Why don't you see our example? We are simply living happily.

Satsvarūpa: But they say we're living off their work.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: They work and we beg money from them, they say.

Prabhupāda: We don't beg money from them. We take their money in the way that they'll use it for bad purposes, so we take it for Kṛṣṇa. They'll drink. They'll smoke. They'll have illicit sex and go to hell. Therefore, out of our humbleness, we have become beggar, just like a father asking the child... He has taken one hundred rupees note and spoiling. "My dear child, you are so nice. Why you are taking this? Give this. Take a lozenges." Like that. We are not for their money. That's a wrong theory.

Païcadraviòa: But they say this drinking and smoking, it's all right, but you are parasites because you're taking our money.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Païcadraviòa: They say that smo...

Prabhupāda: I'm not after... I kick on your face. I don't want your money. (laughter.) You are taking books from us, and you are paying. Therefore I have adopted this means. They may not say... I knew that they would say in the Western countries. Therefore I thought that without books it is not possible. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Come this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka is pointing to...

Prabhupāda: All of a...

Śrutakīrti: We can cross right... No? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: There is no house?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You want Prabhupāda to come...?

Prabhupāda: So why he's claiming his money? Eh?

Païcadraviòa: He says, "Because I work for it."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But money, what is the standard of money? First of all, just discuss this. What is the standard of money throughout the whole world?

Devotee (1): Work, labor, labor.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): Labor.

Païcadraviòa: Purchases...

Prabhupāda: Gold. So have you created gold? How is your money? The gold is already there. You have stolen. You are thief. You are not laborer, but you are rascal, thief. You'll be punished for this policy. Is gold your property?

Devotee (1): But they say that if the whole world follows our example, then the society will be finished.

Prabhupāda: Nobody follows. We do not follow... There are so many... Why they are struggle? Why they struggle? Why do you fight? Because you are all thieves--you want to steal God's gold--therefore you fight. Why do you fight? Why you declare war from one nation to another? Because you are all thieves and you want to steal God's gold. Therefore there is fight. Why do you claim, "This is America, my land"? Is it your land? Have your forefathers created this? Why you falsely claim like that? What is the answer? You have stolen from another party, Red Indians, and you are now claiming, "We are the proprietor." You are thieves. You are not even gentlemen. What do you think?

                                                                                                                                                                        388314

Satsvarūpa: So if all the land belongs to God, then who decides who will distribute it to the people?

Prabhupāda: You don't distribute. You live only, till the ground and take your food. Where is the question of distribution? Whatever you can till, you take so much land. God has enough land. Why do you possess more? One acre of land is sufficient for producing your food. Why do you take more?

Satsvarūpa: Nobody should own excessive.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore God's representative, king, is wanted. He'll divide. "All right, you take this." That is king. King means God's representative. Naradeva. Therefore, according to Vedic scripture, the king is so respected, guru is so respected, father is so respected--because they give guidance. "You live, Kṛṣṇa conscious, like this." That is their duty. The king is simply planning how to collect taxes, this tax, land tax, sale tax, income tax, this tax, this... So his only business is to plunder: "Let him work, and I shall take it away." And everyone is doing. That is struggle for existence. I want to cheat you. You want to cheat me. That's all. And therefore they are throbbing. There is no solution.

Païcadraviòa: Who will decide who will be king?

Prabhupāda: Therefore the king is evaṁ paramparā system. The king, the original king is the sun-god. Then his son, Manu, his son, Ikṣvāku. Everything is described. Why don't you see there?

Païcadraviòa: But who would be the king today? If we establish such a system, who would become the king?

Prabhupāda: Nobody would be king. Everyone is king and fight. That's all. Nobody is king. Everyone is a dog. And they are simply barking.

Devotee (1): In Africa, recently, one of the leaders has taken all the mūrtis and crucifixes from the churches and put his own statue.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): He has banned all religions.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): He put his own statue there, that the people should worship him. He's a disciple of Mao.

Prabhupāda: And because there is no king, therefore he is flourishing.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Had there been any real king, he would have been killed immediately. Because there is no king, therefore in South India, they are insulting the statue of Lord Rāmacandra, because there is no king. Everyone is king. Diplomacy... Democracy. What is this nonsense, democracy? All over the world the royalty is hereditary, never elected. (break) ...and it was hereditary, even Russia. That is the system. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam. And evaṁ paramparā-prāptam--who? Rājarṣayoḥ. They are king, but just like saintly persons. That is king, not a loafer class is elevated to the royal post. Rājarṣayoḥ. Although they're holding the post of a king for administration, they're just like ṛṣi. That is king.

Païcadraviòa: In France they went to the Queen a long time ago, and they said, "The people don't have bread." So she said, "Let them eat cake." And they did not like this. So...

Prabhupāda: These are all stories. Don't indulge in stories. Just try to find out the real fact from śāstra. Therefore śāstra... Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ. Leaving aside the śāstra, if one talks nonsense... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                April 3, 1975, Māyāpur                                                            389144

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Take to industry." Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.

Rāmeśvara: They're too busy making money to grow their own food.

Prabhupāda: "So then pay more money. Come on. You have earned money and give me. I shall give you food. And whatever I shall ask, you have to pay." This simple thing, more demand--price is more. Then why do you gripe, "Oh, everything is price growing, price growing." Why it will not? If I have got food, and you have to purchase, and I have got so many customers, I must increase. That is economic theory: more demand--the price is increased. And then you say, "There are so many problems. We have to solve first." But you have created this problem, rascal. And you shall must suffer. You have infected some disease. Now you must suffer. It is like say, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. The reason is that you have infected some quality of the modes of nature and you must suffer for that. How you can deny it? If you have infected some disease like cholera, smallpox, and when you are suffering, how you can blaim? You have infected. You must suffer. Nature's law is so strict that as soon as you infect a particular type of quality of nature--there are so many--you must suffer for that, or so-called enjoy. There are two things, suffer and enjoy. So you must have to undergo the process. This is... Nature's process is so nice. As soon as you do something, there is reaction and you are bound up. Yajïārthe karma anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma bandhanaḥ. Bandhanaḥ means bound up. Immediately you become bound up. And still, you are thinking, "Independent." The nature's law is so strict.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the argument is that "The cities are there, and now what can we do?"

Prabhupāda: Hm ?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cities are already there. There are millions of people in the cities...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are offering this place. Come here. Why do you not come here and live with us? Then this is... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Therefore we are creating New Vrindaban and farm, and we are trying to purchase... This is our movement, that we give you sufficient food, shelter, health, philosophy, religion, character, everything, purity. Come here. Why don't you come? They come here on the weekdays, and then fly away, go away. You see? We are giving such nice room, but they will not live here. They will go to the hubble-bubble of the city. They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket--coming back to hell again, not going back to God.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said there was a man who read your Easy Journey, and he was very enthusiastic that he could go to other planets.

Prabhupāda: But you must come back. He said, "Oh, I am not coming back again?" "No." "No, no, then I don't want." Yes, that is the psychology. The Russians, when some aereonaut was flying high in the sky, he was seeing: "Where is my Moscow?" Yes, it was published. That is māyā. The... Another incidence happenned that when the jet was in danger, he was thinking of "How to come back home?" This is māyā. Cannot go. Even though you like to go, still, it will attract you again, back to hell. Otherwise, how people are living in--what is called? That place where is ice?

Haṁsadūta: Alaska.

Brahmānanda: Greenland.

Jagadisa: North Pole?

Prabhupāda: What is the name of those people?

Devotees: Eskimos.

Prabhupāda: Eskimos. Is that very good living? Just see. They won't come here. This is māyā. This is māyā. Āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. They, he's living in hell but māyā is covering: "No, it is not hell; it is heaven." This is māyā. Similarly all of us, we are living in this universe, material universe. We are thinking "This is all good. What is the use of God and going back to home, back to Godhead?" They do not take it very seriously. Although we give all information that "You'll haven't, you haven't got to work there. You'll get everything. Your life is eternal and blissful, and full of knowledge," they are not interested. Plugged.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plugged.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Plugged ear, er, ears, yes. "You go on speaking, but I have plugged my ear." (laughter)

Trivikrama: "Chant, chant, chant."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Can't, can't, can't." That's it. (laughter) This is going on. The best intelligence is that "We are hearing so much about the spiritual world; there is so much happiness. Why not try one life? Like cats and dogs, I have tried so many lives. Why not sacrifice one life? Where is the loss there?" But no, they are so many, fallen, they'll not accept.

Satsvarūpa: One man wrote a book about our movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and he said one tragedy of this movement is that if a young boy or girl takes to this movement and later decides to try the material world again, he will have ruined his chances for a career, (laughter) and it'll be too late for him.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Trivikrama: That's a fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti...

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatām api siddhānām, "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." māyā is so strong. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhāgyavān jīva... Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpaya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Kṛṣṇa, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Kṛṣṇa demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām... That is the way. He commands.

                                                                                                                                                                        389219

Nalinī-kānta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then avoid all problems.

Nalinī-kānta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...?

Prabhupāda: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything.

Nalinī-kānta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousnesss.

Nalinī-kānta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 5, 1975, Māyāpur                                                             389665

Prabhupāda: Preacher (?) Where it is taken?

Païcadraviòa: Well, Kṛṣṇa says that...

Prabhupāda: Where says? Why do you speak like nonsense, "This body is for enjoyment"?

Païcadraviòa: No, field.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Païcadraviòa: Kṛṣṇa says that the living entity is the enjoyer of the field and the body is the field.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Païcadraviòa: So the living entity can enjoy his desires in that field according to his past activities.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he's enjoying. He's working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he's enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody's coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that "You work here," I don't think you'll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do...? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not?

Païcadraviòa: The work is too hard.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. That's it.

Païcadraviòa: So what I meant... This body is a field.

Prabhupāda: Yes, body is field is... The example is given. Just like this field, to work with this body is not enjoyment. Everyone is suffering with body, so many people, always suffering threefold miseries. That is not enjoyment. It is enjoyment for the fools, rascals, who are covered by the illusory energy.

Païcadraviòa: In the Gītā you use the term field. You use "the enjoyer of the field."

Prabhupāda: That is his breathing period. (?) One who is suffering, where is enjoyment? Every field, every body, is given to the living entity because he wanted. Just like some of you want to become hog, so that field of activities, hog's body, will be given to you. Enjoy it. You want it, and Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He understands that you want it--"Take it." That's all. "Now enjoy. Become hog."

Brahmānanda: One question, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Brahmānanda: If the planets, they have always been floating, but the stones of Lord Rāmacandra has put in the ocean, they are still not... Where are they?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: The stones that Rāmacandra put, they are not still floating.

Prabhupāda: Floating, that is Rāmacandra's desire.

Païcadraviòa: What happenned to the stones?

Prabhupāda: That Rāmacandra knows. You go there. (break)

Tripurāri: "...enjoyment comes from the fact that he thinks he's saving the world. He's out preaching. Your enjoyment is simply subtle sense gratification."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tripurāri: They say that our enjoyment is subtle sense gratification. We feel we're saving the world. Therefore we get some pleasure from that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you say sense gratification, senses are there, and senses want satisfaction, but you can know the proper way of satisfaction. That we are teaching. We do not say that "Make your senses blunt." But you enjoy properly. That is stated, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattva hy asmad brahma-saukhyam anantam. You are wanting sense gratification, but it is being checked up on account of your diseased condition of life. Therefore you purify yourself. Then you enjoy senses perpetually. This is the injunction. We are not stopping sense gratification. But you are trying to gratify senses in your diseased condition. Just like if you are feverish, you cannot enjoy to eat a rasagullā. It will be not tasteful. So cure yourself and enjoy rasagullā. That is our program.

 

Morning Walk                                              April 7, 1975, Māyāpur                                                              389832

Jayādvaita: The karmīs will say that materialistic culture is also meant for the whole world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit. The materialistic culture, how to eat nicely, that is meant for everyone. Everyone wants to eat nicely, not that only Europeans want, not the Indians. That is material. To sleep nicely in a good apartment, that is wanted by both the Easterners and Westerners. So there is no discrimination. Sex life, that is meant for everyone. So as material life is also meant for everyone, similarly, spiritual life is also meant for everyone.

Jayādvaita: So there are only two cultures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayādvaita: The deva culture and asura culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human form of life, one should take advantage of the spiritual culture because in other forms of life it is not possible. This is the main thing. You become Indian or American, it doesn't matter. You are human being. Take to this culture and you will be happy. This is our mission. We want to make everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy"--with Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the children in the West, in the materialistic culture, they become hippies. They'll say that at least they've had the choice, at least they were given...

Prabhupāda: Again, again you are bringing the same question, Eastern-Western.

Rāmeśvara: Materialistic.

Prabhupāda: Materialistic means that is the ultimate end of materialistic life. Because they want new pleasure, new pleasure, new pleasure, so sometimes this, sometimes that... Sometimes they think the civilized way is better; sometimes the uncivilized way is better. That's all, this way and that way. That is called punaḥ punaś ca... And then you'll take again to civilized way of... I think some of the hippies are taking now. Yes. Because the same example, stool, this side or that side, it is stool. So these materialistic persons, they are trying to change from this side to that side, but it is stool. That is the... That they do not know. They are accepting stool as something very sublime, and therefore they are trying to change the position, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Hitvā anyathā rūpam. This is anyathā rūpam, means a living being. Being spiritual, his business is spiritual, but he has accepted material as the platform of his happiness. That is his fault. So material thing, either this side or that side, it is material. Bhoga-tyāga. So therefore he is not happy. And we are trying to give him spiritual platform for happiness. That is real happiness. But he is so much attached to the material happiness that he cannot believe that there can be any happiness beyond this range. That is his ignorance, mūòha. Therefore we call them mūòha, rascals. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "When you become spiritually realized, then prasannātmā, happiness." Otherwise it is not possible. Material thing, you take this side or that side--there is no question of happiness. When you become brahma-bhūtaḥ, spiritually realized, then there is happiness, prasannātmā, immediately. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu. That is the...

Satsvarūpa: But should this be forced on people if they don't want it?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: If a large section of the people don't want spiritual life, that's their...

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot force. That is not possible, because he has got independence. You cannot force. You can simply give him knowledge. Therefore to distribute knowledge is the best welfare activities, not this material so-called happiness, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva and this... They have got that. That will not make them happy. If you give them knowledge, then they will be really benefited. Otherwise not.

Brahmānanda: How do we give knowledge to the common masses of people?

Prabhupāda: Yes, by saìkīrtana. By hearing, hearing, hearing--this is a medicinal process--the heart will be cleansed and they will take up the knowledge. Now the heart is unclean, so he cannot take up. So this is the medicine. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer... Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra wherever possible, and whoever will hear, he will gradually become cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. And then bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... Then his material pangs will be over. This is the only medicine. Therefore chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Some way or other, let them have the chance of hearing, and then it will act as medicine. Even he does not will, you chant, you let him hear by force, and he will be cured.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes you say only a very small percentage can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: But yesterday morning in your lecture you were saying it can expand to ten thousand, million, or ten million.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you take the proper way it can be increased.

Satsvarūpa: Is that just up to our preaching?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will depend on your purified preaching activities. If you again become materially victimized, then you cannot do it. If you remain on the spiritual platform, if you try, then it will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. It will increase. As soon as there is any contemplation of sense gratification, then the spirit will be lost. Then instead of Christianity, it will be "Churchianity," officially going to the church, doing nothing, and gradually nobody will go.

Rūpānuga: Like the Christians.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Christians... Now who are coming here, in so many temples? Nobody is coming. They have made it a business, "Oh, the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday, you come here." And somebody will come, collect some money, and then there is no business--go away.

Jayādvaita: That requires our personal austerity.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayādvaita: That requires our personally being austere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And what is austerity? It is very simple thing. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu. If you continue devotional service to Lord Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the effect of these austerities will become, janayaty āśu, very soon. Vairāgyam. Austerities means detachment to the material world. That is the result of austerity. So śāstra says janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Simply by executing devotional service to Vasudeva, that vairāgya, detachment, very soon arises. Come. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is very good engagement.

                                                                                                                                                                        389876

Prabhupāda: For enjoying and getting slaps also, both thing. You see? When the children enjoys, sometimes the father slaps also. Why?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Disobedience. They do something that is harmful to themselves or to others.

Prabhupāda: So you can enjoy life, material life, as the father directs. So that is devotional service. Then you will enjoy. Otherwise you will get slapped.

Trivikrama: So-called enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the... Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed. Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa. And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God.

Jagadīśa: Why does Kṛṣṇa provide the living entities with these sinful pleasures?

Prabhupāda: Simple pleasures?

Jagadīśa: Sinful pleasures, such as becoming intoxicated...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not provide. You create your sinful. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You eat meat," but you open slaughterhouse, so you suffer.

Brahmānanda: But there is a pleasure, a certain pleasure derived from these sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: What is that pleasure? (laughter)

Brahmānanda: Well, some people like to... They get pleasure from intoxication, they get pleasure from...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore they suffer aftereffect. That is ignorance, that immediately you get some sense pleasure, but the result is very bad. And that is sinful.

Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. (break)

Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya--they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.

Nalinī-kānta: Punishment is not the best means of reformation. Sometimes if someone is sent to jail by the government, he'll simply be thinking, "Oh, when I can get out and depose these rascals?" So if someone is punished by God, he might become more angry towards God.

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean God will stop punishing. Just like these animals. The stick is there. He may be angry, but stick is required. Otherwise you cannot work with him. "Hut!" You see? The stick is there in his hand. Otherwise he cannot get work. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Nalinī-kānta: So eventually they will have to surrender.

Prabhupāda: Without surrendering there is no other alternative, willingly or unwillingly. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 8, 1975, Māyāpur                                                             389904

Jayādvaita: ...names of Kṛṣṇa as the spiritual master or the ācāryas have chanted them, but sometimes I'll hear that our devotees will be chanting Kṛṣṇa's name in different ways that I haven't heard, in kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.

Jayādvaita: Just like sometimes we'll hear our men. They'll be chanting... Like yesterday I heard that someone was chanting, "Nitāi-Gaura, Nitāi-Gaura, Nitāi-Nitāi-Gaura." Like that, I'll hear different mantras. Someone is chanting: "Rādhe, Rādhe, Rādhe, Rādhe," like that, at kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is not done by the ācāryas. But there is no harm chanting "Rādhe." But sometimes it is degraded to make something new, invention. Therefore better to stick to "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and to "Śrī-Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhupāda-Nityānanda." Otherwise... Just like the sahajiyās, they have invented: "Nitāi-Gaura Rādhe Śyāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma." These things will come gradually. But they are not approved. They are called chara kīrtana (?), means "concocted kīrtana." But there is no harm chanting "Rādhe, Nitāi-Gaura." So better stick to this Païca-tattva, and mahā-mantra. Just like "Nitāi Gaura Rādhe Śyāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma." There is "Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhe Śyāma," but it is not approved. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. We have to follow the mahājana. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find "Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Prabhu-Nityānanda, Śrī-Advaita Gadādhara...," never "Nitāi Gaura, Rādhe Śyāma." So why should we do that?

Jayapatāka: The concocter of the "Nitāi Gaura Rādhe Śyāma," previously he was a follower of Bhaktisiddhānta, but then he was rejected, and then he started his own camp.

Prabhupāda: No, yes, he was meeting Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. So... What is called? Carana dāsa Bābājī.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes during ārati, many bona fide bhajanas are sung, but not much Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is that not a good tendency, that maybe just two or three minutes of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and many other bhajanas?

Prabhupāda: No. We should stick to Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Prabhu-Nityānanda, jīva jāgo jīva jāgo..., these are authorized. But Hare Kṛṣṇa is the mahā-mantra. What is sung by mahājana, Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, Narottama dāsa Öhākura, that can be sung. (break)

Jayapatāka: ...you say is back to Godhead. But when one is situated in pure, transcendental love of Kṛṣṇa, then that's, then wherever he may be, that's back to Godhead. Isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatāka: So then we should desire not to go back to Vaikuṇṭha but to go back to..., to be situated in our pure service to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure devotee does not aspire anything, simply to be engaged in loving service of the Lord, wherever it may be. It doesn't matter. (break)

Jayādvaita: ...they know everything and they're perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that...

Prabhupāda: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.

Jayādvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya is explained, bhakti-saṁsanaḥ: "One who's preaching the cult of devotional service, he's ācārya." Then why should you find any discrepancy?

Jayādvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the ācārya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then...

Jayādvaita: ...an imperfection.

Prabhupāda: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Ācārya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is ācārya.

Jayādvaita: And that is the perfection.

Prabhupāda: That is the perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayādvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That's all.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's also a question of reciprocation. You have so many disciples, thousands, and one devotee was asking me yesterday, "How does... I want to please Śrīla Prabhupāda. How does he know my progress and my service because I'm..., when I'm so far away from him and if I don't write him?"

Prabhupāda: So his representatives are there, the president, the GBC. They will see.

Mādhavānanda: The representatives.

Jayādvaita: The representative may be there, but what is my personal relationship?

Prabhupāda: Hm? To obey your spiritual master. Whatever he has said, you follow strictly. Follow the regulative principles. Chant sixteen rounds. That's all.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, when Śrīla Vyāsadeva was lamenting after compiling so many Vedic literatures before compiling Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, he said to his spiritual master, Nārada Muni, that "You please enter within me and find out my deficiency. You are as good as the all-pervading Supersoul."

Prabhupāda: That is always the position of disciple, to find out his deficiency in the character of disciple.

Devotee (1): He said that "You are as good as the all-pervading Supersoul."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficient. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect--he's to be chastised--then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. (Break) ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one." Was He fool number one? He's God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he's perfect. In the moral instruction, Cāṇakya Paṇòita gives this instruction, that lālane bahavo doṣas tadane bahavo guṇaḥ: "If you chastise your son or disciple, he'll improve, and if you say, 'Oh, you are all right,' then he'll degrade." Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāòayet na tu lalayet: "Therefore you always chastise your son and disciple. Never flat..." What is called?

Jayādvaita: Flatter.

Prabhupāda: No.

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in one purport in the Bhagavad-gītā, you write that a disciple of a bona fide spiritual master is supposed to know everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if he follows the spiritual master.

Satsvarūpa: But how could he know...? What does that mean, "everything"?

Prabhupāda: Everything means whatever his guru knows, he should know, that much. Not like God, everything. Within his limit, that's all. If he tries to understand whatever his guru has said, that much is "everything." Otherwise, "everything" does not mean that we know everything, like God, like Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. If he regularly chants and follow the regulative principles, follows the orders of guru, then he knows everything. That's all. Not very much... Knows everything, then what is the use of reading books when he knows everything? (break) ...everything--except Kṛṣṇa. Aham... Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo. He knows past, present, future, everything. You cannot expect anyone to know like Kṛṣṇa, everything.

Jayādvaita: Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā that one who knows Him knows everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if he knows that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he knows everything. That's all. Not that he should know as Kṛṣṇa. If he... Yasmin vijïāte sarvam eva vijïātam... If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. That is finish.

Jayādvaita: That knowledge itself is...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: That knowledge itself is complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: There may be material things he doesn't know, but they're useless.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: If there's some material information that such a person doesn't know, that's not really knowledge anyway.

Prabhupāda: I did not follow.

Satsvarūpa: If he doesn't know how many people live in...

Jayādvaita: Just like Gaura-kiśora could not write. So it appeared that he did not, there was something that he did not know, although he knew Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. Otherwise how Bhaktisiddhānta accepted him as guru? He knows Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Nalinī-kānta: Whatever the spiritual master says, that is also perfect?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he says nothing concocted. Whatever he says, he says from śāstra, and guru.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (2): Is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Devotee (2): Can you tell us?

Prabhupāda: I remember the moment was very valuable. Yes.

Devotee (2): Can you tell us the story?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think I have said that.

Satsvarūpa: When you were speaking to one man...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He became very angry and chastised me.

Jagajīvana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, was this during a lecture by Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagajīvana: Was this during a lecture?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was not... One of my old brother, he, he wanted to speak something. So I leaned my... I immediately became... (laughter) So he chastised him more than me.

Devotee (2): When Lord Caitanya chastised someone more than Advaita Ācārya, Advaita felt that He had been neglected 'cause he had not received a greater chastisement.

Prabhupāda: He wanted to be chastised, so Caitanya fulfilled His desire. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                    April 12, 1975, Hyderabad                                                          390043

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone has got lot of responsibility. I know. But Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's demand. Everyone has got a lot of responsibility.

Guest (3): I don't say responsibility.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Guest (3): I say they have got a lot of bhakti towards Kṛṣṇa because in the house, all of us are...

Prabhupāda: Then preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. That is Kṛṣṇa's order.

Guest (3): Daily we celebrate that Rādhā-kalyāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Why you play Rādhā-kalyāṇa? Preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. Why do you go to Rādhā? First of all try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā has never said about Rādhā. That is very confidential. So why do you jump to Rādhā? Has Kṛṣṇa said anything about Rādhārāṇī in the Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (3): Even in the Bhāgavatam you don't see the...

Prabhupāda: No, Rādhā... There, Bhāgavata, there is. That is foolish proposition, "In the Bhāgavata there is no Rādhārāṇī." There is. But at least in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa has never said about His Vṛndāvana-līlā. No. That is very confidential. That is not for common man. The comman man, first of all let him understand what is Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. That they do not understand. Even big, big leaders, politicians, scholars, they do not understand. Because they do not take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, therefore they fail to understand. And what they'll understand about Rādhārāṇī? You... If you are my confidential friend, then I can take to my family. And if you are outsider, why should you expect to come into my family life? This is common sense. You do not understand Kṛṣṇa, and you want to understand Kṛṣṇa's dealings with Rādhārāṇī. That is very confidential. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmāt. You have to understand Kṛṣṇa, then His pleasure potency, hlādinī-śakti. The difficulty is that we do not want to become a regular student. Haphazardously, here and there, here and there, but I remain the same thing. It is a science. Jïānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijïāna-samanvitam. Tad vijïāna samanvitam. Jïānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijïānaṁ pravakṣyāmi anasūyave, yaj jïātvā na anyaj jïātavyam avaśiṣyate... But the Vedas do not say like that. Vedas say, tad vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. If you are serious to learn about that, tad vijïāna. Tad vijïānaṁ, gurum evābhigacchet. You must go to a bona fide guru who can teach you. Nobody is serious. That is the difficulty. Everyone is thinking, "I am free," although he is pulled by the ear by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. You have done like this, come on, here, sit down. This is going on, prakṛti. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. The rascal, befooled by his false ego, he is thinking, "I am everything. I am independent." Those who are thinking like that, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaìkāra vimūòhātmā. The false ego is bewildered and thinking, "What I am thinking is all right." No, you cannot think in your own way. Must think as Kṛṣṇa says, then you are right. Otherwise, you are thinking under the spell of māyā, that's all. Tribhir guṇamāyāir bhavair mohita, nā 'bhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti sūyate sa-carācaram. These things are there. Read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, follow the rules and regulations, then your life will be successful. And so long you have got, this is also right, that is also right, then you will not do the right. You will all be misled. That's all. That is not (indistinct). What Kṛṣṇa says, that is right. That should be the (indistinct). Otherwise you will be misled. So we are trying to preach this philosophy in that way. Maybe, very small number, but ekaś candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasra. If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling. So that is our propaganda. If one man can understand what is Kṛṣṇa philosophy, then my preaching is successful, that's all. We don't want many millions of stars with no light. What is the use of millions of stars with no light? That is Cāṇakya Paṇòita's advice, varam eka putra na chavur kasatan api (?). One son, if he is learned, that is sufficient. Na chavur kasatan api (?). What is the use of hundreds of sons, all fools and rascals? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasras. One moon is sufficient to illuminate. There is no need of millions of stars. Similarly, we are not after many millions of disciples. I want to see that one disciple has understood Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. That is success. That's all. Kṛṣṇa says, yatatām api siddhānāṁ, kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. So, first of all, to become siddha is very difficult job. And then, yatatām api siddhānām. There is still difficult job. So, Kṛṣṇa philosophy is little difficult to understand. If they are understanding so easily, that is not understanding. It is easy, it is easy, if you accept Kṛṣṇa's words, it is very easy. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, always think of Me. So where is the difficulty? You have seen Kṛṣṇa's picture, Kṛṣṇa's Deity, and if you think Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? After all, we have to think something. So instead of something, why not think Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? But he does not take seriously. He has to think so many things, except Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. There is no difficulty to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not at all. But people will not take it, that is the difficulty. They will argue simply. Kūṭaka. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, where is the argument against it? You are saying that, they may not think of Kṛṣṇa, they may not say about Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. This is argument, this is not philosophy. Philosophy is there, direct, you should do like this, that's all. You do it and get the results. You go to purchase something, the price is fixed, you pay the price and take it. Where is argument? If you are, if you serious about that thing, you may pay price and take it away. That is the advice of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā-mati kriyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. If you can purchase somewhere the thinking of Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā mati. That is, we have translated into "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." If you can purchase this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, somewhere, immediately purchase it. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvita-mati, kriyatām, just purchase, yadi kuto 'pi labhyate, if it is available somewhere. And if I have to purchase, then what price? Tatra laulyam ekaṁ mūlam. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ labhyate. If you want what is the price, he says the price is your eagerness. And that eagerness to obtain it, takes many millions of births. Why you want Kṛṣṇa? Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Kṛṣṇa, he will become mad after Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign. These boys are certified in their own country by the Christian priests that "These boys are our boys, they will never come into church, they are never interested about God, and now they are mad after God. What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Kṛṣṇa. To mad after Him. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He rādhe vraja-devīke ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Where You are? Where You are? Śrī-govardhana pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamunā? Where you are? Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply wondering where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato pure khedair mahā-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Kṛṣṇa, you can understand Kṛṣṇa. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Kṛṣṇa, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa is black, somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa as something else. Who says Kṛṣṇa is black? Who told me?

Mahāṁsa: Cinmayananda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means "black." Sapta nuraman pure sita kar baba. (?) One has studied all the Rāmāyaṇa, seven cantos, seven khandas, and he is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" Sītā is a feminine, and the Rāmāyaṇa expert is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" This is their education, they are becoming big lecturer on Bhagavad-gītā, he has understood Kṛṣṇa means "black." And people are following him blindly. Big swamiji is speaking.

 

Room Convertsation(2)                               April 12, 1975, Hyderabad                                                         389985

Prabhupāda: ...any language, you should submit, and you should feel that, that "I am worthless. My Guru Mahārāja has given this chance to serve Kṛṣṇa, to offer Kṛṣṇa... My Lord, I am worthless. I have no capacity to serve You. But on the order of my Guru Mahārāja, I am trying to serve You. Please do not take any offense. Accept whatever I can do. That's all. That is my request." That mantra is sufficient. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Kṛṣṇa never said that "One who offers Me with Sanskrit mantra." Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Real thing is bhakti, feeling: "How to serve Kṛṣṇa? How to please Him?" That is wanted. Not to see that you are a very good scholar in speaking in Sanskrit or English or... That is not... Always feel that "I am worthless, but I have been, by the grace of my Guru Mahārāja, I have been given the chance. So kindly accept whatever little service I can give. I am offensive. So kindly excuse me." In this way be humble, meek, and offer your feeling, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Not that you have to show how you can speak in Sanskrit language.

Guest (1) (Indian man): In another śloka, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...api sahiṣṇūna amāninā mānadena kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ.

 

Room Conversation                                     April 14, 1975, Hyderabad                                                         390345

So if you can make one example (break) India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply, we have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal.

Devotee: No one can object either.

Prabhupāda: No. (chuckles)

Devotee: That's the beauty.

Prabhupāda: Make the whole field green, (break) sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction and they (break) He knows some people, they are being exploited, animals are being exploited by these rogues, fat, big, big, fat rogues. Discovering some nonsense, scientific means and people are starving. There is no food. And they're busy in discovering scientific method.

Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb for India. That is the greatest paradox.

Prabhupāda: There was a picture... some deputation came to the minister that we are starving. There is no food. The administrator, he went, "Of course I have no information that you have no, but we're advanced now. Come tomorrow, there will be radio message. Radio message, radio, there's television, ha television..."

Yaśodānandana: Television.

Prabhupāda: Television, tomorrow, from tomorrow you'll have television.

Yaśodānandana: Instead of food.

Prabhupāda: Instead of food you'll get television. (laughing) Advanced. This is going on. "I am hungry, sir. What shall I do with television?" That is the real answer. Say "I'm hungry. What shall I do with the television?" But he's pacifying, "Don't worry, you'll get television." This is science.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheaters.

Prabhupāda: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf and they are discovering scientific method.

Brahmānanda: Intoxication... By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfied with meat. That's all. That is going on in the western country. The drinking... I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle, they are drinking.

Devotee: Every day.

Yaśodānandana: Actually they have run a survey in America and they have found out that the greatest drug takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight-watching pills and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them and it gives them energy and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills and that is all during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills.

Prabhupāda: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all.

Prabhupāda: You have got some agricultural experience?

Devotee: Not at all.

Prabhupāda: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult.

Devotee: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English. He's supposed to have agricultural experience.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśodānandana: Jayapatāka had no agricultural experience.

Prabhupāda: Any city boy (indistinct) (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             April 17, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                          390379

Prabhupāda: ...There is no possible (?) Tell them, this United Nations Organization, that "You are all bogus. You cannot do it. Come to this platform, and you'll be able." They have proved themselves bogus for the last 25 years, I think. They started in 1947? Huh?

Devotee: 1945.

Prabhupāda: Forty-five. (To passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how many years they have...

Devotees: Thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Thirty years. Uselessly. Wasting money and time... (break) ...that this movement is very good. He goes step forward, simply by saying this, that "These people are doing very nice." Ajïāta sukṛti. Kṛta-puṇya-puïja. So, both say (Hindi) (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             April 19, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                          390384

Prabhupāda: ...nobody said that this meat-eating is bad; now I am saying. You see? So they do not know that it is bad. So they are not offenders.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? (break) You can give me the general prasāda today. I will taste. (test?) (break) When one becomes rich, he becomes lazy. What is called? "Leads to poverty"? Luxury. "Luxury leads to poverty." So at one time one become very rich by hard work, and next generation gets the money for nothing, he spends it on luxuries, and the third generation, poor. There are many families, in everywhere. In England, all these English men, in the beginning they worked very hard, expanding their empire and working. Then gradually, when they became Lord family, then luxury. Now they are poverty-stricken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their country is very poor now.

Prabhupāda: Very poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of Europe is poor.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially Holland and England. Holland and England and France, there was competition for colonization. The same colonization is there in America, Canada. The Frenchmen and--what is that?

Brahmānanda: The Dutchmen, they went to New York first. The Dutch, they first went to New York.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanaïjaya: Peter Stuyvesant.

Guru-kṛpa: The Scandinavian countries are not so poor. Denmark, Sweden...

Prabhupāda: They are industrious, and they have got resources.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing.

Prabhupāda: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation. France, English...

Dhanaïjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that side, is, means Western side.

Guru-kṛpa: Spanish went to South America.

Dhanaïjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we knew in our childhood.

Jayādvaita: Now there's no empire for the sun to set on.

Prabhupāda: No. Now they have made it Commonwealth, keeping some scent, flavor of British empire. Commonwealth.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? In those early days of colonization they were trying to sail to India by a quick route to get the spices, and it was the same time that Lord Caitanya's movement began. So is that just a coincidence, that they were trying to go to India at the same time?

Prabhupāda: No. What it has got with Caitanya's movement?

Rāmeśvara: I heard... A devotee once told me that they were actually...

Prabhupāda: Oh, again, "heard it from devotee." (laughter) That is very dangerous. What Caitanya's movement has got with politics? Nothing. They drag Caitanya's movement, that. Many rascals do that. It has nothing to do with politics. It is simply spiritual. Rather, even the Mohammedans, they were very much respectful to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They never took it as, His, the political movement. Now it has become a fashion to take everything from political point of view. Just like in India, they are suspecting you as CIA. "CIA has come to become Vaiṣṇava." (laughter) (break) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. If anyone remembers Kṛṣṇa by seeing somebody, that somebody is a Vaiṣṇava. He gives impetus to remember Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is Vaiṣṇava. You stick to your principle, Vaiṣṇava. Then māyā will not touch. (break) Where is Prajāpati? He is not here?

Jayatīrtha: No.

Prabhupāda: He is going to...

Jayatīrtha: He's here in Vṛndāvana, but he hasn't come on the walk.

Prabhupāda: So, he is going to demonstrate anything? No.

Rāmeśvara: Is he going to do any play?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dances?

Jayatīrtha: I'm not sure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your desire for that, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, no, I told him that you make some play for showing here in Vṛndāvana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all right that the women are dancing?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śrutakīrti: You said plays. He could do plays.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Women as far as possible should be no... That's not good.

Devotee (1): He spoke to me about it. He wants to do four performances here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that dancing he wants to do or plays?

Devotee (1): Dancing.

Prabhupāda: With women?

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (1): He has to do play?

Prabhupāda: So without woman there is no dancing? (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His whole troupe is women. The New York devotees, the Vaikuṇṭha Players, they have drama group.

Prabhupāda: So, drama is good. Woman dancing will not be very much appreciated here. (break) ...scarcity of grains and government will exact taxes for poor-feeding, and it will be used for their own purpose. These are the Kali symptoms. (break) ...stay in future.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Are they doubting for themselves or for us?

Prabhupāda: For us.

Guest (1): They should doubt for themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view...

Guest (1): Our movement, this movement, is Kṛṣṇa's own movement.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, from mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop?

Guest (1): It will never stop.

Prabhupāda: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important, that it will continue to stay.

Satsvarūpa: They doubt that our devotees will stick many times.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.

                                                                                                                                                                        390476

Prabhupāda: (break) ...not very nice last time. But this time also I am not eating, but I am working nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not eating?

Prabhupāda: No. This is improvement, no eating but working nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like the six Gosvāmīs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be great fortune.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: You will save your expenditure, and you will get your work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they liked to see Him take prasādam. We don't... We're not that interested to save.

Prabhupāda: (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari. "First of all, you become perfect." If you are a devil, you cannot do it. The devil and divine. Divine means spiritually advanced, and devil means materially advanced. And because we are manufacturing divine, the devils are afraid of it. The devils do not like this movement. (Someone drives by:) Jaya. So just see, automatically they are offering respect. That means we are infecting them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was noticing that yesterday on the parade, everyone was offering respects.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana after all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that is a benefit spiritually.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To offer you respects.

Bhagavān: In Bombay, even those poor fisherwomen...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are offering respects. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to create divine because the world is full of devils.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to be divine ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Unless you become divine, how you can convert others to divine? If you are devil, you will convert others to become devil, that's all. (break) ...most beautiful.

                                                                                                                                                                        390540

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...strongly warm, then you do not become cool very soon. You must be strongly warm, fire temperature. Then you will act as fire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the process for heating up the fire?

Prabhupāda: You keep yourself with fire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. That is you.

Prabhupāda: Don't go outside the fire. Then you keep yourself warm. And temperature increase exactly like fire. That is required. That is the motto of our Back to Godhead: "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." That is the beginning of our movement. Keep Kṛṣṇa always. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Then you remain Kṛṣṇa-ized. And as soon as you give it up, then think of devils. This is going on. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...kīrtana going twenty-four hours a day. In some of our larger temples is it also advisable?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is advisable for everywhere. Batches. What is the difficulty?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the whole atmosphere becomes spiritualized, purified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: keep always with fire and you remain high temperature. And if you ignite fire and again pour water and again ignite, again pour, then what is the benefit? If you ignite fire, keep it fire, don't pour water. But generally they do that, that "Now I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, I am free from all sinful activities. Now again let me do it, and again I shall chant."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No progress.

Prabhupāda: No progress. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. This is the greatest offense. (break) (switches to room conversation) ...the animals and human beings. Then they can work. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, then parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Now parjanyaḥ, cloud and rain, that is required. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. And yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Then you have to arrange for sacrifice. So in the Kali-yuga the costly sacrifice is not possible. Therefore from the śāstra we understand, yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ, "one who has got good brain substance." There is one word in Bhagavad-gītā, alpa-medhasaḥ: "poor brain substance." So we require some sumedhasaḥ, not alpa-medhasaḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ. They are making plans by their material concoction that... That is antavat. That will be finished. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ. The things are there already, especially in India. We have got everything ready, and especially this land India. It is specially meant for God realization. By the birth, one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious. Still in these days, whenever... You have seen in Hyderabad. Although your conference was going on, still, at least five thousand men were attracted to hear me. (Guest laughs) And I was speaking the dry subject of Kṛṣṇa. So India is so fortunate. They are still ready to assimilate the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. The land is so fortunate. So we must give them the chance. That is our duty. That is government's duty. That is teacher's duty. That is father's duty. That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāt. Guru's duty. One who has got the chance of accepting something very easily... The guardians... The first guardian, the government, the second, the father, then the teacher, then so many, friends, relatives--that chance should be given.

 

Conversation with Governor                      April 20, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                          390550

Prabhupāda: ...that everyone is doing his own duty. Never mind if you are Christian or if you are a Muslim or Hindu, that, what is your duty, what is said in your scripture, you must do it. Not that "Because it is secular, I can do whatever I like."

Governor: Secular means I respect you, not only I am Hindu or do what I do...

Prabhupāda: Secular means impartial.(?)

Governor: But also not come in the way of a Muslim.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a śūdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brāhmaṇa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brāhmaṇa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa. I have given the example...

Governor: Vānaprastha college.

Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"?

Governor: The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a brāhmaṇa. (indistinct)... Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people.

Prabhupāda: All people.

Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."

Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.

Governor: Both intensive and extensive training.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter.

Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent.

Prabhupāda: Ninety-five percent may remain non-brāhmaṇa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ-sahasraśaḥ. You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion. Then?

                                                                                                                                                                        390577

Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."

Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then?

Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society."

Governor: Coordination.

Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.

Governor: It is an harmonious coordination.

Prabhupāda: Yes, harmonious coordination. But the śūdras were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans. And there was no reacceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Musselman will take little water from the badna (?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammedan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammedan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammedan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the śāstra, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa... This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low-grade...

Governor: No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all śāstras. Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although śāstra does not say so. Śāstra says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in pāpa-yoni"... Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position." And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. Caṇòalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ.

Governor: We have right example of Vālmīki.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next?

Brahmānanda: "The injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. The injunction of the śāstra about charity is that charity should be given to qualified brāhmaṇa or sannyāsī because they will spend it for the benefit of the whole human society. This is called charity in goodness. In the śāstras there..."

Prabhupāda: Just like we are getting charity, crores of rupees, but we are spending for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the brāhmaṇa and the sannyāsī, no other else. Then?

Governor: The apatra-dana.

Prabhupāda: Ah? Apatra-dana, that is third-class. Go on.

Brahmānanda: "This is called charity in goodness. In the śāstras there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our Back to Godhead, 'Charity in ignorance.' "

Prabhupāda: She has written one article in our Back to Godhead. I am quoting from that.

Brahmānanda: "...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the śāstras charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kṛṣṇa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Point Nine: The role of manava-dharma pariṣat. I think that if the manava-dharma pariṣat takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the pariṣat inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society. So far manava-dharma is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world. Point Ten: The manava-dharma mission, its constitution and program. Therefore the constitution of manava-dharma or the institution of varṇāśrama must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains. Mother nature, or mother Durgā, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains. This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is confirmed,

annād-bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

I hope you will give your serious consideration to my suggestions, and I am prepared to cooperate with you to my best capacity if you think my suggestions are right."

Prabhupāda: This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles) And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society.

Governor: Any elaboration of what you refer to as vānaprastha college?

Prabhupāda: No, varṇāśrama. Vānaprastha, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take prasādam and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take vānaprastha, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge.

Brahmānanda: I think the governor was asking about the varṇāśrama college.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a śūdra, and somebody is claiming, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the brāhmaṇas (were) strictly following. They would not accept... In the śāstras it is said that the brāhmaṇa in bad time may become a kṣatriya. Just like Dronācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he became a kṣatriya for certain reason, and acting like kṣatriya, although he was respected as brāhmaṇa, but he was acting as a kṣatriya. So it is advised that brāhmaṇa may take the profession of a kṣatriya and up to the vaiśya. But if he takes the profession of a śūdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti?

Brahmānanda: Bhāratīya samskriti.

Prabhupāda: Bhāratīya samskriti. It will be very respectfully accepted. Why should we imitate them? That is... Western civilization is not brahminical culture. There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely... So in our India, in a place like Vṛndāvana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if varṇāśrama college is established. Of course, we, in India, so far I know, nobody will come to be trained up as a brāhmaṇa. They will prefer to be trained up as an electrician and not as a brāhmaṇa. Our Bon Mahārāja, he also tried for a Vaiṣṇava University. He was unsuccessful.

                                                                                                                                                                        390625

Prabhupāda: Now, he is electrician. If whatever he earns he engages in worship Kṛṣṇa, then he is transcendental. He is not electrician; he is a Vaiṣṇava. This is clearly said. Then?

 

Morning Walk                                               April 23, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                        390638

Prabhupāda: ...although there is full arrangement for producing food, and because we are rogues and demons, nature will restrict supply. (break) But this machine will be stopped as soon as the increase of population of rogues and demons. The machine is there already. Mūòhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. The background is Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa, under His order. He says, "Don't supply here." Mayādhyakṣeṇa. The supply is stopped. That they do not know. They are making scientific research. What scientific research? Bring water. There is so much water. Bring that water, distill it and throw. Are you such great scientist? And by God's arrangement the sun is there, evaporates the water from the sea, and it becomes purified without any salt, and it is extravagantly thrown on the land. And the same water again flowing down through the river in the sea, the water is reserved. Nothing is lost.

.                                                                                                                                                                       390682

..in the morning take water from the river, evacuate, then wash their hands and take nice bath. And one jug water brings at home. Then everything, water problem, is solved....

                                                                                                                                                                        390688

…they are keeping, but it is not possible to give them food by purchasing. They are taking food from the street. Similarly, the poor man keep a cow. It is not possible to purchase food for the cows. So maintain in this way, so, by natural food. And in Germany I have seen. They are not given extra food. They are living by pasturing ground. That should be arranged. They should get food from the ground, not that we have to purchase food for them. Then you cannot maintain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We just recently went to Govardhana Hill. Several years ago the grass at Govardhana Hill was very nice and long and green. This year, though, it didn't seem so green. It was very brown and...

Prabhupāda: Yes, from Kṛṣṇa's time the Govardhana grass was being supplied to the cows. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommended, "Better worship Govardhana Hill. Why you are going to Indra?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that means that it is possible for long green grasses to grow in this area.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. The only difficulty is there is no water, no supply of water. In the rainy season this will be all green immediately, immediately, without any delay. So, the only difficulty--there is no water.

Guest: In Gujarat now the same problem is there and they are digging well, five-acre well, just we have dug at Māyāpur, and collecting water. Rainwater is collected that way. So here also it can be done for a small farm. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...saìkīrtana, then water will come. You haven't got to do anything. Otherwise the words of Gītā will be false. Yajïaiḥ... Yajïād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. The formula is there. You perform yajïa and the water will be supplied. They are not performing yajïa.

Dhananjaya: So then it's very important to perform twenty-four-hour kīrtana here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Devotee (2): From that, then, the rains will be produced.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should not chant for rain. That will automatically come. But you should chant for pleasing Kṛṣṇa.

Makhanlal: There's some rumors that there will be a drought in the United States, a very severe drought.

Tripurāri: But by the devotees chanting they would never have to...

Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere.

Makhanlal: Even if there was drought for the nondevotees, the devotees would, automatically wouldn't have to worry about such a thing.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...stopped, then your whole business stop. Imagine if these hills were green. How much foodstuff would have been available both for the animal, for the man. All dry, all dry. People should immediately accept this chanting to solve this problem. (break) And the yajïa means yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana.

 

Morning Walk                                                    May 8, 1975, Perth                                                               391063

Prabhupāda: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law.

Paramahaṁsa: The person who doesn't know, he thinks that the child is innocent...

Prabhupāda: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.

Paramahaṁsa: You were saying with all these wars. The people that are being killed are simply...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo bhuïjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam. When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. (break) ...me." That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Dāya-bhāk. Dāya-bhāk means he inherits God's property as the son's inherits the father's property. Dāya-bhāk. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife's responsibility, for mother's responsibility for... Nothing. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Except--this is the clear and simple truth--except chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All the Gosvāmīs, Haridāsa Öhākura and others, only did that, how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no other business. That is sannyāsa. He has no other business. To preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to convince Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that's all, no other business. We don't take part in politics, sociology, and mental speculation, "science," or so on, so on, all nonsense. We reject, all kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. Oh, very nice. You collected all these flowers?

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Great service.

Amogha: From the public gardens. There is a big public garden.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Amogha: The government plants for the city to look nice.

Prabhupāda: But you are stealing.

Amogha: No, not from anyone's house.

Paramahaṁsa: From the government.

Prabhupāda: Very, very nice flowers. Such a big rose I have never seen.

Paramahaṁsa: In India they don't grow that big. They are very small.

Prabhupāda: Nobody takes care. The man also grows very small. There is no food, there is no soil. Poverty lives. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-nāśe, when a person becomes poverty-stricken, all his quality goes away. He might have very good qualification but if... (break) Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it, and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to relieve them. You are American or Australian?

Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupāda.

Paramahaṁsa: Australian, he says.

Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has directly said they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvāmīs, they were coming from respectable... And where Gauòīya Maṭha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life.

Paramahaṁsa: Most of them just came from the villages.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Uneducated, half-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers I have beat them. (Like Tīrtha) (indistinct). In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize. They will admit. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not tripe, this is fact.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.

Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...

Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?

Paramahaṁsa: Because you're the expert.

Prabhupāda: It is not just we. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others?

Paramahaṁsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own..., in other words, you convert people of your own caliber?

Prabhupāda: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management.

Paramahaṁsa: But if you become high quality or high class, then automatically you attract that type of person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do. You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America. When I found that in India no intelligent boys were coming, then I decided, "Let me go to America."

Paramahaṁsa: Still, even after you went to America and brought back so many European and American disciples, still the Indians are so slow to come and join.

Prabhupāda: Because they have been... The disease is very chronic. They are not opulent. That diagnosis already given. They have become poverty-stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa naśe. Although they are born in India, they have got many qualification, due to this poverty-stricken position, they... Their first business is how to... Because they have got family attachment, so they cannot sacrifice. They will work very, very hard. You have seen how they are going to office, how..., because they have got the responsibility of family. That is Indians another feature. They take family responsibility. In your country there is no such thing. There is no family. There is no family responsibility. In India still that old tradition is going on. Therefore they cannot sacrifice the family responsibility, although they are willing. And the whole thing is it is due to poverty-stricken position. They have got family responsibilities. They think, "If I go, then whole family will starve. How can I go?" That is the exact position. And to come to that stage, that "Let my family starve, I don't mind," that is very higher stage. That is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, "Oh, no responsibility, simply I have got respons..." That is not ordinary stage. You cannot expect these things from ordinary man.

Jayadharma: A person may see somebody do that, may think that they're irresponsible.

Prabhupāda: Yes, escaping, so many accusations. But with all these accusations one can do that. There is no harm. But that position is not for all.

Paramahaṁsa: Due to that poverty-stricken condition, if someone does come to us, they usually want to get something from us.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. You find out this verse, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer. Find out first the index.

Paramahaṁsa: First Canto. Yellow. Yellow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, here. Find out this verse: tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ...

Amogha:

tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer

bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ

ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ

"Translation: One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything."

Prabhupāda: That's it. They are thinking, "I am doing my duty," but they do not gain anything. And a person doesn't care for any responsibility; he comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He gains something. Even if he falls down in immature stage, he gains something. But other man, he is doing his duty very nicely, but he is gaining nothing. You should read the purport.

 

Morning Walk                                                     May 9, 1975, Perth                                                                391223

Amogha: They think catching fish is great sport, great fun.

Prabhupāda: They haven't got any business. They must do all of these sinful activities. That is the defect of the modern civilization--keeping all men in darkness.

Jayadharma: Does that mean that the people that catch the fish have to also become fish?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mūòhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization.

                                                                                                                                                                             391279

Prabhupāda: It is not meant for mass people. Only selected fortunate. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "If I could make one person to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, then my mission would be successful." It is not for mass person. Only the fortunate they can do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by introducing saìkīrtana, even the mass can take part. When there is saìkīrtana, everyone joins. And by joining in that way, they will become purified.

Amogha: In Sydney, the city council once tried to stop us, legally, from chanting in the streets. First they arrested us two years ago, but then they spent many dollars of tax money to prepare a case for the court, and they didn't even tell us. They had the court session, and the judge ruled that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the streets is good. It adds color to the city and is not illegal. Why you are saying this is illegal? This is their right. And it makes the city more colorful."

Prabhupāda: Nice judge. God gave him sense.

Amogha: So actually many people like to see the chanting now. When we go downtown with a big party on Friday and Saturday nights, when they have late-night shopping and movies, many people clap, and they dance a little bit. Sometimes mocking, but also one can see they're affected. And usually if we stop in front of a cinema and chant there, fifty or more people they just stop and they stare, and they can't think of anything else. They just watch and watch and watch. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of Kṛṣṇa's name.

Prabhupāda: There is a natural tendency to hear. Artificially they stopped. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti. Appeals to the heart immediately. Unless he is too much sinful it will appeal immediately.

 

Room Conversation                                               May 9, 1975, Perth                                                         391446

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent."

                                                                                                                                                                        391525

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are changing. Just like he said, "Thou shall not kill." They are now changing, "Thow shall not commit murder." They are doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. They have a modern Bible, using all modern terminology.

Prabhupāda: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupāda said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like that.

Paramahaṁsa: One thing about the Christian religion is that through the last two thousand years, Christ's original teachings may have been good teachings, may have been potent preaching, but because there were no potent preachers to carry on the preaching, therefore the whole thing has been lost. But if there are potent preachers to continue reestablishing and estabishing the principles,...

Prabhupāda: So how you'll find, if everything is now changed? Where you will get the right information?

Paramahaṁsa: That's the problem. That's why there are so many hundreds of branches of Christianity, literally hundreds. So many divisions of Christianity. Some people accept this, some people accept this.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we should advocate that Bhagavad-gītā is not like that. It is coming in the same form as it was taught to Arjuna. If you challenge that "How you know that it has not been changed?" the ācāryas are there. The ācāryas are there, and they are accepting. Therefore it is correct. We have to follow the ācāryas. So when we see the ācāryas have accepted, then we accept. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, before that other ācāryas also, they accept. They never say that "This was not in the original scripture. It has been changed." You don't find any such statement of the ācāryas. The best thing, therefore, if you want a religious system, Bhagavad-gītā is coming without any contradiction, change, for the last five thousand years. You accept it. Other scriptures are (unclear), and there are so many doubts, so many interpretations. So, if you want real religious system, this is the scripture spoken directly by God, and accepted by all the ācāryas, so take it. If you are really after God, so you take enlightenment from this perfect scripture. If you want truth, it doesn't matter wherefrom it is coming. I must accept the truth.

Paramahaṁsa: The Christians openly admit that the Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our scripture.

Prabhupāda: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes there. Nobody comes.

Paramahaṁsa: As they have seen that their scripture has been changed, they also have a very strong doubt about our scripture. They say "Well, yours in even older than ours," so somewhere along the line they say it must have been changed.

Prabhupāda: You say, but those who are the followers of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this? Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are simply suggesting because you had a bad experience. But one who has no such experience, why should he follow your advice?

Paramahaṁsa: Actually if anyone looks at Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically see that it is perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got our argument, logic, everything. Why should we blindly follow?

Gaṇeśa: The results can be seen practically that those who are following the Bhagavad-gītā written by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are giving up these nonsense activities.

 

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the knowledge was handed down by the saintly kings, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, how is it that the knowledge was lost?

Prabhupāda: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have made some changes. Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it down to you, but if you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on in my presence. Now after my deparature, if you do not do this, then it is lost. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you stop... (end)

Morning Walk                                                  May 10, 1975, Perth                                                               391553

Prabhupāda: Worshiping the dead bodies.

Amogha: There's a pathway up here that goes up... Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes when we are speaking, people say, in the questions they say, "Why do you say this is a science? It seems that this must be belief. Because science..."

Prabhupāda: Your so-called science is also belief. You believe in one way, we believe in another way. And if you call it science, then it is also science. If you call your belief as science, then why shall I not call my belief as science? Your is also belief. You have never gone to the moon, and you are talking of so many things about moon. That is your belief.

Amogha: But they say with science they can prove so many things.

Prabhupāda: We can also prove. You cannot prove. Just like you say the life is made of chemicals. You prove it. Take chemicals and make a life, then it is true. Otherwise it is a humbug. Why do you say like that, that life is made of chemicals? You cannot prove it.

Amogha: I do not say that life is made of chemicals.

Prabhupāda: They say.

Amogha: They say. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, these rascals say.

Amogha: But they say they can prove that there are chemicals...

Prabhupāda: You prove it. You take the chemicals and prove--produce life. Why do you talk nonsense? First of all prove. You did not produce a life, even an ant, in the laboratory, and still you say life is a combination of chemicals. Why do you say like that? Challenge them.

Gaṇeśa: We cannot see souls, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It appears that matter comes from matter, or life comes from matter. We cannot see the soul.

Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you can perceive. If life comes from matter, then when there is a dead body, put matter and make it alive. Or put chemicals. Chemical is also matter. Make him alive.

Paramahaṁsa: We made some, um, um...

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all this is my challenge: that here is a dead body, so bring some chemicals. Just like a motorcar stopped for want of chemical, petrol. So you bring petrol and it will be started. Similarly, you bring some chemical and start it again.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, that will require some time to find the chemicals.

Prabhupāda: That means you fool. You are talking nonsenses. You do not know what is that chemical. You prove yourself a rascal.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept that we don't know, but we are trying to learn.

Prabhupāda: Then if you don't know, why do you talk nonsense? First of all you know, then talk. That is science.

Amogha: But the way we built this civilization and technology...

Prabhupāda: It is not civilization. It is animal. You are eating meat, and you are civilized? The tigers eat meat, the dogs eat meat. A human being, why should he eat meat?

Paramahaṁsa: But there are so many wonderful things taking place, brain transplants, and so many other things.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are not civilized so long you are eating meat. You are dogs and cats and tigers, that's all. The tiger may be a very strong animal, but it is not to be called that he is civilized. Nobody will say the tiger is civilized.

Amogha: But we have made airplanes and cars, and if we had only waited until we knew, we never could have made it. But by trying...

Prabhupāda: All right. You have made some technical advancement. That does not mean you are civilized. Civilized means the Aryans. They know what is the soul. That is civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen in the Eastern countries where the people don't eat meat, they are at the same time very primitive. Very uncivilized, like savages.

Amogha: They don't have enough food.

Paramahaṁsa: No technology, no education.

Prabhupāda: Because you have plundered them for the last two thousand years. You rascals, rogues, you have plundered. You have taken all their money, all their jewels, all their gold, and made British Museum. (laughter) It is due to you. (noise in background) What is the dog? Some dog?

Amogha: Oh, that is the siren. You mean the siren?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some bird.

Amogha: Oh, yeah. In Bhagavad-gītā we claim that it is a fact scientifically that Kṛṣṇa appeared on earth and so many things. But actually isn't it because we believe that the Bhagavad-gītā is true that we think it is scientific? Because we believe it. But someone else would say, "I don't believe it, so for me it's not scientific."

Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni, by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it?

Amogha: That must be true.

Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: "By Me, the four divisions of human socieity are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: But we have philosophers and poets.

Prabhupāda: They are all loafer class. They have no information of the soul. They are studying in the dead matter, that's all. Freud and others, Darwin. What do they know?

Amogha: There are also so many priests and rabbis, the Pope.

Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be--brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.

Gaṇeśa: The Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago, so it doesn't pertain to today.

Prabhupāda: No, it was not written. It was there. Then you do not read Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are speaking like that? You know Bhagavad-gītā? You have not studied Bhagavad-gītā. That is a disgrace for you. You have read Bhagavad-gītā?

Gaṇeśa: A little.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Amogha: He says yes, a little.

Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. Why he says that Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago? Why do you say like that? You do not know. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... What kind of realization of Bhagavad-gītā, you do not know? I am accusing you because you are student of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How you do not know?

Paramahaṁsa: I think he was posing as a materialist.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But one who does not know, why is he saying that Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago? He does not know. That is my point. If you had known then you would not have said like that, foolishly, that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. It is avyayam, it is eternally there. It is eternally there. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam. Avyayam means which is never under deterioration. It is eternally existing. That is avyayam. Just like ātmā, soul, avyayam. There is no deterioration. It is there. So forty millions of years ago once it was spoken, but in due course of time it is now lost; therefore I am speaking it again to you. You did not read Bhagavad-gītā it is said there? How do you say it was written five thousand years ago? It is already there. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago, now it is lost. The material world is like that. One thing is lost sometimes. Therefore I am speaking to you. And why are you speaking to me? Because you are my devotee. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That means only the devotees can understand Bhagavad-gītā, and it is always existing, and because it is now lost... Just like we are putting Bhagavad-gītā, why am I stressing so much? It is lost. By the so-called Gandhis and Dr. Radhakrishnan, they have made it lost. Therefore we are stressing. The thing is there. We are simply trying to revive it again. It is not that it is the beginning. No. It is already there. But these rascals have made it lost. People do not understand it, do not follow it, that is the difficulty. So we are trying to revieve it again. It is revival of the whole teaching. Permanent teaching. Permanent beneficial instruction. Now it is lost. Which way shall we go?

Gaṇeśa: Straight ahead, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is another path.

Prabhupāda: There is another path?

Paramahaṁsa: Another footpath, yes.

Prabhupāda: This road is nice.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Which way? This way or that way?

Amogha: This way is all right.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Amogha: The sun is this way.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is not that, five thousand years ago, not like that. Just like you cannot say the sun is now coming. It is there. It is there always. You are seeing now. They used to think like that--at night the sun is dead. These rascals. And they are advanced. They used to think that this earth is square. (laughing) And they are advanced. They are changing their opinion daily. That is their scientific knowledge. Why should they change?

Amogha: They say this means they are discovering the truth, step by step.

Prabhupada: That means you do not know the truth. That is a fact. You do not know--simply speculating. You are accepting some spot--this is truth. And after some days, "No, no, this is not truth, this is truth." This is your position.

Paramahaṁsa: Many of the scientific textbooks that were written twenty years ago are all outdated. Can't use them any more.

Prabhupāda: Useless. So this scientific at the present moment, after twenty years they'll be useless. This is your scientific.

Amogha: But at least what we know now is more true than what we knew before. And if we keep trying we'll know more.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that means you are always in ignorance. This means that you are always in ignorance. And Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says the same thing I am speaking to you again. That means we are not in ignorance. We may forget something, but the truth is always the same. But you are making, manufacturing, discovering truth. That means you do not know what is truth. You should answer like that. That you are all rascals. You do not know what is truth; therefore you are discovering truth. Truth is never discovered. It is already there. But you do not know what is that truth. That is credit that you are making advance towards truth, but you do not know what is truth. That is a fact. Is it clear? Making discoveries means you do not know what is truth. But it is good credit for you that you are trying to advance. That we agree.

Paramahaṁsa: So eventually if we keep advancing like this we'll understand the truth.

Prabhupāda: No you'll never advance. Your advance is so slow and foolish that you cannot.

Amogha: But some Indian history professors say...

Prabhupāda: We are not talking of Indian history, we are talking on the truth. We never say it is Indian truth.

Amogha: But Bhagavad-gītā has been presented in so many ways also, and now we are saying it is another way.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "I am showing you the way how to understand Bhagavad-gītā. You have to accept that." Not so many ways. Only that way. That I have explained in the Preface, that when you have to take a medicine, you have to take the direction: dose, such and such. Not that so many ways doses are prescribed. According to the prescription you have to take. Otherwise you will waste your time. Now they have wasted so many plates. What is the value of this? (referring to memorial plates on trees.)

Amogha: Bhūtejya.

Prabhupāda: What benefit is there? A soldier has died. So what is the use of having a tree, having a plate?

Amogha: This will make us remember how much our countrymen...

Prabhupāda:What benefit is there by remembering?

Paramahaṁsa: Well the family feels honored that there is a tree here for a son of their's.

Prabhupāda: What benefit do they derive?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they can come and see it.

Prabhupāda: Do they think that man who has died is still there?

Amogha: Next time when there is a war, then they will feel more inclined to fight, knowing that there may be a tree for them.

Prabhupāda: It means, this is government deceiving. The man is not there. And even if he is there, suppose the soldier after dying for his country has become a tree, is it a very good reward? (laughter) How foolishly they are thinking. We have to point out their foolishness. That is our business. They are working very hard, undoubtedly, but they are working foolishly. Śrama eva hi kevalam. The result is simply they are becoming tired. That's all. Because they are not working intelligently, like monkey, he is busy all day. What is the value of your busy? You'll find the monkey is never sitting idle. He's always busy, "eḥ, eh, eh." (imitating monkey) So what is the result of that busyness? He's a monkey. And they claim to be coming from monkey, these rascals. So we can see that your monkey's quality is already there. (laughter) You have not improved more than monkey, because you are working uselessly. They are theorizing that they have come from monkey, and as soon as you say that you are monkey, they become angry. Just see. They are claiming that we are coming from monkey. And if you say you are monkey, no better than monkey, then they are angry. Just see.

Paramahaṁsa: That's because we've advanced from the monkey stage up to the human stage.

Prabhupāda: You have not advanced. If you are uselessly working, then you are monkey. Monkey is busy, but useless. There is no value. What is the value of your working? You cannot make a solution of the problem that you are dying. Then what is the use of your working? You do not like to die. Why you are dying? You are keeping memory of him because you wanted that he should not have died. That is your desire. You do not like to die. So where is the solution of your death? You might open many hospitals, but where is the solution of disease, that there should be no more disease? That you cannot do. Therefore your so-called scientific research, working hard day and night, is all monkeys' business. Useless.

Paramahaṁsa: But we are seeing that even the spiritualists get old and die also.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are not talking of this body. We are talking of the soul. We say that soul transmigrates. So, instead of transmigrating to another this perishable body, we are transmigrating to the eternal body. That is our business. We are making solution. But you do not know. You are simply working like monkey, uselessly.

Paramahaṁsa: But we haven't seen that anyone has got...

Prabhupāda: How you can see? You cannot see. You do not believe in transmigration. So how can you see? Paśyanti jïāna-cakṣuṣā. When you will have the eyes to see--knowledge--then you'll see. Now you are monkey, how you can see? A monkey cannot see. Paśyanti jïāna cakṣuṣa. Just like our men in India, they know I have come to Australia. But he's not seeing by his eyes. He knows the arrangement was made, they purchased ticket, and they went to the airport. And they are confident. They are sending letters here. Has he come with me to see? How he knows? That I have come here, how he knows? He has not seen that I have come here. But how he knows?

Gaṇeśa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: That means there are other sources of understanding--not only the eyes. The rascals do not know. They want to see.

Paramahaṁsa: Of course a person can never be completely sure...

Prabhupāda: Therefore, jïāna cakṣuṣa. You can see with knowledge how this man is being transferred to the eternal life. But you have no such knowledge! You are monkey. A monkey cannot see, a monkey cannot understand. Suppose there is a dog at my house. He does not undersatand how I have come here, because he has no knowledge. So seeing means knowledge. Seeing, not the eyes. He wants to see by the eyes. He's a monkey. That's all. He's a dog.

Paramahaṁsa: But first we have to believe it, and then we can see it?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. It is a fact in this way, that Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti--that's all. You have to see through Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says that a such and such person devotee, after giving up this body, he does not accept. That is seeing. Kṛṣṇa says and you see. Just like you believe me. A child believes the father. Similarly, if the authority is there, then you see by his word, that's all. That is knowledge. Seeing by perfect knowledge--that is seeing. Not by endeavoring with these imperfect senses. That is not knowledge.

Paramahaṁsa: But in this modern age...

Prabhupāda: Modern age means all rascals and fools. So we haven't got to follow the rascals and fools. You have to follow the most perfect, Kṛṣṇa.

Paramahaṁsa: The problem is that everyone is cheating. Everyone is presenting some knowledge of this or that...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have accepted Kṛṣṇa, who will not cheat. You are cheater, therefore you are believing cheaters. We do not cheat, and we accept a person who does not cheat. That is the difference between you and me.

Gaṇeśa: But we were all cheaters before we came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So how is it that we're not accepting a cheater? How is it that we cheaters have accepted some knowledge from you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are speaking what Kṛṣṇa said. He is not cheater. He is God. I am talking to you, but not my own knowledge. I am presenting to you what Kṛṣṇa said. That's all. Therefore I am not cheater. I might have been a cheater, but since I am talking only the words of Kṛṣṇa, since then I am not cheater. Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni, "I know past, present and future." Therefore He is not cheater. But so far we are concerned, we do not know what was the past and what is future. And we do not know perfectly the present also. And if we speak something, then we are cheater. That is cheating. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that don't hear the cheaters and don't try to cheat others. Be honest, and hear from the authority. This is Kṛṣṇa. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, that don't hear the cheaters and don't try to cheat others. Be honest and hear from the authorities. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is it that some people, when they hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they take it, and some do not. And still, after that, some of those who take it, they stay, and some who take it take it for some time and then they fail?

Prabhupāda: That is fortunate and unfortunate. Just like one inherits father's property. Many millions of dollars, and he has become a poor man by his misusing the money. Like that. He is unfortunate. He got the money, but he could not utilize it.

Jayadharma: Does fortune mean it's the mercy of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy is always there. It is your misuse of free will. You are given the opportunity--that is fortune. But you do not accept the fortune. That is your misfortune. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛita. Lord Caitanya said, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kono--some fortunate man can accept it. Because mostly they are unfortunate. Just see, throughout the whole of Europe and America we are making propaganda. How many students have come? A very insignificant number, although they have come. They are fortunate.

Amogha: Sometimes we see that a devotee may be very sincere, but at the same time he becomes weak somehow, and he falls down.

Prabhupāda: Even if he falls down, still he is fortunate, because the injection is there. It will act, some day or another. Still he is fortunate. As fortunate man he took it, but he fell down. That does not mean he's unfortunate. Still he's fortunate, because the poison is already there. It will develop. That is called ajïāta sukṛti. Therefore he is not loser. He continues to be fortunate. It will take some time.

Amogha: So he became weak because he misused his individual will.

Prabhupāda: He misused the instruction of his spiritual master. Therefore he became unfortunate, or he fell down. (pause) This is botanical garden?

Amogha: The sign says parking for botanic gardens. But I'm not acquainted with it. (pause) I don't know. It says, "Cetennary. August 22, 1947." Perhaps its name is on the other side. (pause) Is there going to be a world war very soon? We heard there would be.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Then it will be a very different situation for preaching.

Prabhupāda: Your preaching will not be stopped. It will go on. (pause)

Amogha: He's bringing the car. He went back. He'll bring it around. (reading sign) "The Tree Society originated the idea of placing this kadi log in King's Park. The log, normally destined for milling, was provided and brought by Booning Brothers P.T. Limited from their Darling River sawmilling area. The following transporting and placing in position of this great log from over 200 miles from the depths of the forest, with each of the three sections borne on a 200 horsepower motor truck, was a major engineering feat and a tribute to the spirit of western Australian timber men. With the approval and assistance of the King's Park board, the actual placing of the log in King's Park by 25 June, 1958, was contributed to by Hume Pipe Co., Aaron Brothers B.P. Australia Ltd, the Forests Department and other government departments. The completion of the project was a fine example of community effort."

Paramahaṁsa: It weighs a hundred and ten tons. And it's 363 years old, this log. They say it grew that long. In America we have some redwood trees in California they say are many thousands of years old.

Amogha: This is a type of eucalyptus?

Paramahaṁsa: It says Eucalyptus diversicol.

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata says, kiṁ tarova na jīvanti. You want to prolong your life. The trees--they do not prolong their life? So if you prolong your life, does it mean that you are better than a tree? Kim tarova na jīvanti. If prolonging life is your mission, the trees automatically do that without any scientific knowledge. Then what is the value of your science? Kim tarova na jīvanti. Do they not live for thousands of years? What is the value of such living? If the tree is living, standing for 10,000 years, then what is the value of this 10,000 years? So if you live like a tree, without any benefit, then what is the value of your life?

Jayadharma: Some people say that trees may be very happy. How do we know?

Prabhupāda: If you want to become happy like that, be. Stand up. Stand up on the bench and laugh--be happy. (laughter)

Amogha: But they say we are humans; we can enjoy.

Prabhupāda: What enjoy?

Amogha: Television, cinema, dancing...

Prabhupāda: Yes, the dogs also dance and enjoy. The monkeys also dance and enjoy.

Paramahaṁsa: But these animals, they're not intelligent enough to enjoy the higher...

Prabhupāda: They are intelligent. Otherwise when the dog jumps here, and goes to one man and come here--he's enjoying. It is enjoyment. So you are doing like that.

Amogha: But we cook very nice food to eat.

Prabhupāda: They also eat, according to their taste. The hogs, they eat stool and they enjoy it. So, according to our calculation you are eating stool--the meat. And you are thinking you are enjoying, as the hog's thinking, that's all. It is a question of standard of enjoyment. Otherwise, enjoyment is there in every living sphere. (In car)

Amogha: It sounds very nice. If we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we can feel unlimited pleasure.

Paramahaṁsa: It sounds too simple to be true.

Amogha: But maybe we can in addition to this unlimited pleasure, just to make sure we don't lose out on anything, maybe we can also enjoy all these other pleasures.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you (indistinct) motorcar and chant. You are working hard like an ass to get these motorcars. You'll get these by chanting.

Gaṇeśa: Sometimes they say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if everybody chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, what shape would the world be in?

Prabhupāda: They would get everything, and without any labor. Just see our example.

Amogha: But they say that the only reason you are... Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is existing is because we are working and giving you the money.

Prabhupāda: You must work. Because we are superior, you must work under us. (laughter) That will give you actually happiness. (indistinct) That is your duty. You are not carrying out your duty, then you will suffer. You work under our direction, you'll be happy.

Amogha: Then they say that every religion says the same thing, that if you follow them, then you will be happy. But they are all teaching differently. So...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now try this. This is the latest. (laughter) You are after latest. This is the latest.

Jayadharma: Sometimes people may say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we're just trying to introduce the old caste system from India that never worked anyway.

Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be choas. This is natural.

Amogha: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid them.

Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said--you are reading the other day--the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer--you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (in room:)

Jayadharma: They say in India that the caste system apparently is not working.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Amogha: Shall I answer?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...

Prabhupāda: Vested interest.

Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...

Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste sytem in your country?

Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.

Jayadharma: That is my foolishness.

Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest--ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest--this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also--these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business--artisans--that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating--both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man. And go-rakṣya. Another business is to protect the cows, and to give them food nicely so the cows will give enough milk. And from milk, you know, so many nice preparations, all full of vitamins. So why they should be killed? You are killing; the blood is not utilized, you are taking the flesh. But flesh is transformation of the blood. And milk is also transformation of the blood. So if you take, just like channa, it is as good as flesh. By taste, by benefit--as good as. So why if you can take the flesh and blood in a human way--blood is transformed into milk, and from milk there are so many good preparations--ghee, yoghurt, burfi, channa, so many preparations are available. This panir, channa, and let the animal live peacefully. Why are you cutting his throat? You require some benefit from the animal. Take this benefit. Why should you kill? If he can live and give better service, then why shall I try to kill? What is this human civilization? Is that human civilization, that I am taking service from you, and I am cutting your throat? Is that humanity? What is the answer?

Jayadharma: No, it's animal civilization.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who takes milk... Everyone takes milk. The cow is the mother. Mother gives milk. And mother, when she cannot supply milk, mother should be cut up. Is that a very good philosophy? Is it human philosophy? What is the answer? But if you say that somebody wants to, say in your country majority they want to eat meat. So, if you put that argument, then you can eat some lower animals. You can eat the pigs. You are eating also, pigs. Not in a massive scale. Massive scale--if you are Christian you should follow your religious scripture: "Thou shall not kill!" This should be the principle. But if you are a rākṣasa, if you want to eat meat, then at least don't kill the cows. You can eat other, insignificant animals. You are eating also. You are eating everything. Except the moving cars, you are eating all the moving animals. The car also moves, but you cannot eat. Otherwise you are killing everything. You have become so civilized rascal that your business is to kill other animals and eat. You are so civilized. You are still in the crude form of human being, just like in the jungles, the aborigines, the Africans, they do not know how to develop civilization--crude methods, eating the animals. That also, they are not so uncivilized that they keep slaughterhouses. You are so uncivilized that you are keeping slaughterhouses, regularly. These Africans and other jungle people they eat meat, but they directly kill. They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal--a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. THe government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business. That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam. That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 11, 1975, Perth                                                               391709

Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says He creates the four varṇas and āśramas, so these four classes of men are everywhere. I was just wondering if it is correct to say that each man only finds his satisfaction performing a particular type of work according to his mode of nature? Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education--students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This is their subject matter, kāma. So everyone in this material world infected with this tamo-guṇa, all lusty desires, in various ways, varieties. And some of them in rajo-guṇa--politics and improvement of material condition. So we have to cut down this tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, come to the sattva-guṇa. Then he'll not be disturbed by these lusty desires and greediness. Then he'll be happy. Sthita-sattve prasīdati. When he comes to the sattva-guṇa, now he has to make further progress, sattva-guṇa. And the progress means, being situated in sattva-guṇa if he advances in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he surpasses all the material qualities. That is perfection of life.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it that when a devotee is situated in the mode of goodness and that...

Prabhupāda: Devotee is situated above goodness.

Devotee (2): Transcendental.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee (2): Is it still that there's greed and lust there, but he becomes transcendental to it? Or are the greed and lust...?

Prabhupāda: Degradation can take place at any moment. We are in the material world. It is the degraded place. So infection can take place at any moment.

Devotee (2): It's always trying to creep in.

Prabhupāda: But if you remain steady in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it will not touch; you'll not be infected. If you take proper vaccine, so even though you are in the diseased condition, you will not be infected. Otherwise there is chance of being infected of anyone.

Devotee (1): So if we devotees...

Srutakirti: Better move over. (Car approaches and passes)

Prabhupāda: Why they are coming here?

Devotee (1): They're coming to fish and to surf.

Prabhupāda: Waste time. Finding out opportunity how to waste valuable time. They do not know that every moment they are dying. Dying, death has begun since he, one takes birth. And our business is before dying we must be prepared for the next life. But they have no knowledge. That is ignorance, tamo-guṇa.

Devotee (1): So if we as devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are transcendental to these modes, does that mean that we can...

Prabhupāda: You are not transcendental. You are trying to be transcendental. You should always remember that "We are trying to be transcendental." When you are actually on transcendental state, you will not be affected by any modes of material nature. Therefore you should be very cautious and careful. Just like on the sea, you are in the boat. You are transcendental. But the boat may can merge into the water any moment unless you are very carefully plying it. At any moment. You are not in the water, you are safe on the boat, but if you do not carefully ply your boat, then you can fall down at any moment. The comparison is given, nṛ-deham ādyam sulabhaṁ sudurlabhaṁ. Sulabhaṁ. This human form of body is just like a very nice boat to cross over this ocean of ignorance, and the guru is the pilot or the captain. And the śāstras are favorable wind. Just like if you are going this direction, if the wind is blowing this..., then automatically your boat is pushed. And behind the boat, what is called, the boat, that thing? He takes the...

Amogha: The oar, rudder...

Srutakirti: The oarsman. Oarsmen.

Prabhupāda: Oarsman, all of them are. Chief?

Amogha: The steersman or the pilot?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the chief man. So the guru is there. He is the chief man, giving direction, or the captain. And others are plying, and the boat is also strong, and the wind is also favorable. In this circumstances, if you cannot cross, then you make suicide. The śāstras are there. That is favorable wind. You get the way. And the spiritual master is directing, "Do like this." And you have got a nice boat and you are plying. Now cross over. Very big ocean in the material world. Just see the sky, how big it is. So we have to cross this material sky, penetrate the covering, then go to the spiritual sky. Then you are safe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. That place, even after destruction of this whole material world, that is safe. So we have to go there, plying the boat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You rascal, give up everything. Surrender unto Me. And surrender unto Me. Follow My instruction as I have given. Then you are safe." But that they will not do. They will try to cheat Kṛṣṇa by interpretation, "This means this. This means that." That they will do, these rascals, big, big rascals. Kṛṣṇa says something, and they will misinterpret. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra. They have got their own plan--mānava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just surrender unto Me." That they will not do. Except this, everything which is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret... Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: "Kill means murder. It is meant for man." That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on in the name of religion.

Devotee (1): They swear on the Bible in the court. And I was reading in the paper the other day that now in England they have passed a law whereby a man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to be raped.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Woman?

Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.

Devotee (1): So what this law means is that anybody can rape anybody.

Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye. It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession--same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession. Everyone in this material world has come with these lusty desires and greediness. Even demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā... The Lord Brahmā became lusty after his daughter. And Lord Śiva became so mad after Mohinī-murti. So what to speak of us insignificant creatures. So lusty desire is there. That is material world. Unless one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this lusty desire cannot be checked. It is not possible.

Devotee (1): So how is it that Lord Brahmā is a pure devotee...

Prabhupāda: No, he is not pure devotee.

Devotee (1): He's not.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is in the material world, he is not pure devotee. He has to become a pure devotee. But there are pure devotees. They come. They are not subjected to all this. They come for the deliverance of the fallen souls. They are above Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva.

Devotee (2): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't Lord Brahmā the original spiritual master in our sampradāya?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should take that it was his līlā to show that "Even I am subjected. How much you should take risk here." We should take like that because he's our guru. We should not take him that he was subjected to lusty desires, but he made a show that "Even I am also subjected." And he gave up this, changed the body for that. Therefore we should not observe if there is a show of fault of the guru. We should take a different way. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. Just like the sun is soaking water from urine, but we should not imitate that, that "We also, let us take urine." Then you'll die. He can do so. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. The sun can do that. Still he is not affected. Everyone knows the sun soaks water from the urine. But should you imitate that: "Oh, let me take urine"? No. It is not for you. That is advised. Éśvaranam, those who are īśvaras, the controllers, there is no fault. You should not imitate them; simply you should imitate their instruction. Not that their activities which we may not understand, why he is doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: In the beginning stage of devotional service when we are trying to make advancement, we have to tolerate the urges of the senses. But is there a point...

Prabhupāda: That is tapasya.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is tapasya, that voluntarily we accept some inconvenience. That is called tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryena. The tapasa means first brahmacarya, how to avoid sex desire. That is the first tapasa. Tapasā brahmacaryena samena vā, yamena niyamena vā, damena tyāgena satya-śaucābhyām. The steps are there. So tapasā, tapasā... Tapasya means first brahmacarya, how to restrain this sex desire. That is first step. Where is their tapasya? "It is very difficult to do this tapasya. Oh." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given harer nāma. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra regularly, you'll be cured. Otherwise, regular tapasya is almost impossible nowadays.

Paramahaṁsa: Is there a stage after a person becomes completely purified...?

Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age--all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you--yoga, karma, jïāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. (break) ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement--the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?

Devotee (1): Oh, the seagulls. Seagull.

Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being--a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here?

Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Here, this way?

Devotee (2): Yes, I think so.

Devotee (1): It leads to the beach.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin?

Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit--then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person.

Devotee (1): (break) ...till they give up their lusty desires.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 12, 1975, Perth                                                               391892

Prabhupāda: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Kṛṣṇa very much appreciates. (long pause) So you take Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say because so many others...

Prabhupāda: No, no, there are two parties. That's all. Others means one who interprets, that is one party. And there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say, "We are right because we are more." They say, "We are many..."

Prabhupāda: Many asses means there is an opinion? Many asses give some opinion. Is that opinion?

Śrutakīrti: They say so.

Amogha: They say we are Ph.D., and there are so many swamis and things like this.

Prabhupāda: Oh, majority.

Śrutakīrti: Democratic method.

Amogha: Majority rules.

Gaṇeśa: The result will show.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That democracy is the ruination of civilization.

Amogha: But actually many of them appreciate the actual translation because it's so much more clear. It's just that before, they didn't read it. Many of them, now they are reading it, they appreciate it very much

Prabhupāda: So we want to remain in the minority. We don't want to be ruled by the majority.

                                        

 

You find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.

 

But if you do not perform yajïa, this machine will not work to get water from the sea, convert into cloud, and then distribute. This will be restricted.

 

But what you will do with money? If there is no grain, then will you eat money? (laughter)

Justin Murphy: Certainly not.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Money is not required. Required--food grains.

 

But you require food grain, I require food grain, the animals require food grain, and everyone requires food grain. So if there is sufficient food grain, then everyone will be happy.

 

No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"

Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply.

Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life. So...

 

And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord.

 

And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem.

 

Therefore the society should be divided into four classes.

 

All are necessary…By education you create.

 

They have to be trained… No, there must be institution… So anyone can be trained up.

 

So unless you create at least a few percentage of the people first-class men according to this standard, there cannot be any progress. This is my last word to you.

Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class.

 

So become first-class man. Everyone will hear you. And you can face any so-called first-class man and talk with him straightforward that "You are fourth class."

 

So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth-class men. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character, nothing of the sort.

 

This artificial way of life will lead to such disasters. It is a most artificial way of life. It is not natural way.

 

So this is also sex desire. When it will come to end? Most artificial civilization.

The solution is there. They won't take it. Solution is there, that everyone produce your own food. There is so much land; utilize it. The solution is there. No. They want to sit down on the table, chair, in a very nice compartment, and making solution. They won't go…That is his ignorance. They will say it is primitive. That is the only solution. According to the Vedic system, you cannot use anything which you cannot produce. Suppose this we are using, but according the Vedic system we should not use it because I cannot produce it. Then the whole solution is there. Nobody will manufacture this because there will be no customer. If I refuse this use of this machine, thinking that "I cannot produce it; I should not use it," then where is the customer? The so-called industry will automatically stop, and he has to go to the village outlying.

 

That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization…Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.

Therefore we are proposing that eat nicely, live nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the engagement.

 

That is the only alternative. If you want actually peaceful life, then produce your own necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read these books. This is the only solution. There is no other solution.

 

This man is unemployed, and if we engaged him for plowing, will he do that?

…Then you suffer…Then go to hell.

 

Our next program is to organize farming...You produce your own food. I give you ingredients. I give you land. And work for five, six hours, and take your food and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa…Our main business is to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious.

 

The world is full of rascals, and the so-called leaders, they are big rascals, that's all. They cannot make any solution. Simply take salary.

 

The society is not in stable stage…They cannot make solution. So as soon as the monetary source will decline, this civilization will be finished…Because there is no culture. They are not standing on culture. They are standing on money…They do not know what is culture of life. They simply want money, that's all.

 

Our business is to carry out the order, not to see success. Success is not so easy. That is not so easy.

 

According to our Vedic civilization, first-class men's vote required, who knows things as they are.

 

But since India accepted a brāhmaṇa by birth without these qualities, India's civilization fell down…So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it.

 

So I think if we, if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.

You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this.

 

Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it… But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk.

 

So your this behavior, attachment, is very much appreciated both by Kṛṣṇa and devotees. So continue this attitude and follow the instruction. Then it is guaranteed, go back to home, back to Godhead. It is not difficult. For a sincere person to go back to home, back to Godhead is not at all difficult…So keep yourself always in touch with the principles and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and those who are... All of you, I think, you are educated. Read books. Try to understand the philosophy. Then your life is successful.

 

Now you have got the United Nations. Now, if they are sane men, they should pass resolution, "The whole world belongs to God, and we are all God's sons. So let us make now United States of the World." That can be easily done…Produce foodstuff, distribute. Then immediately whole nations become united. Use everything, God's gift--we are all sons--very nicely. Then the, all the problems solved… Yes, that we want to do: one God, one state, one scripture, and one activity. That is the ultimate end of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

 

You can advise only, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right," this one medicine. You can simply make plan how they will chant and take prasādam. Then everything all right…Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy.

 

Balance is that you should be reciprocal exchange. What you haven't got, you give me; what I haven't got, I give you. This should be the process of exchange. Then the world will be united. When there is exchange of gifts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want actually peaceful life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTEEN

Room Conversation(2) with Justin Murphy (Geographer)                  May 14, 1975, Perth                           392334

Paramahaṁsa: ...kinds of ideas and that we have ideas that can be very useful for them. So actually there is a...

Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is the basic principle of civilization, what we want to fulfill, what is the goal. There are different species of life beginning from aquatics, fishes and animals in the water. Then, as the water dries up, then vegetation come. In this way there is evolution from aquatics to vegetable life, then moving, insects, reptiles. Then, gradually, birds. From insect, the flies come out, and then flies gradually comes to bird. Then from birds to beast, four-legged. Then from beast to human being. Then human being, the aborigines, uncivilized. Then you come to civilized life, which is generally known as Aryan life. So the Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization... In this way we get this human form of life, developed consciousness. Now we should try to understand, "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" That is the subject matter of enquiry. So where is that department of knowledge?

Justin Murphy: Where do we fit in?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Justin Murphy: We, the organization that I work for, the government that I work for, is, of course, very, very different, no doubt, in ideas and in philosophies to all of you, and you for example. We work within, however, a situation where we are concerned that within the framework of Australia's society, which involves people, private enterprise, industry, increasing population, all of these placing demands on what naturally is Australia, what you were talking about to begin with. The evolution of Australia, the continent, the land mass, and the birds, the animals. Of course, we have a magnificent and unique and diverse fauna and flora.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Justin Murphy: These we must try to protect and preserve for two reasons. Our ideas are that we must, we have to be, to an extent, slaves to the twentieth-century civilization, or what we call the nowhere civilization. In other words, our function stops or is frustrated if a government won't give us money to continue our work and our research. So in other words, we have to direct a large part of our research towards people and making life and opportunities better for people. We can't, however, do that--we can't improve agricultural production, we can't improve forests, we can't improve recreational opportunities in the forest lands around cities--if we don't consider sympathetically, thoughtfully, and scientifically the natural resources of Australia. So it's interesting that you mentioned to begin with in the evolution, say of the evolutionary cycle in Australia, you mentioned the aborigines. The aborigines were in fact far better at maintaining and conserving the central Australian landscapes, the central Australian arid regions, than any Australian since European colonization.

The aborigines lived in almost perfect harmony with their environment for thirty thousand years, thirty to forty thousand recorded years--that's how far our research can take us back--whereas in a little over a hundred years, European man in Australia has done in places irreparable damage to not only the vegetation but also the soils of arid Australia. It's damage that will probably never, ever be repaired because the environment is so delicate in central Australia that as soon as our cloven-footed animals, our sheep and our cattle, for example, are brought into the arid areas, they eat, they trample, they remove vegetation. This loosens the soil; the soil is very thin. It's very unfertile, and it blows away. And virtually all you have left is rock. And nothing grows, of course, on rock. That's an over-simplification and perhaps an over-dramatization, but this has happened in Australia. It didn't happen when the aborigines lived here, undisturbed by us. It has happened since European man has come.

In Perth, in this city, around this city, since Europeans have come, we have removed forests, we've cut down trees, we've tilled the soil, we have changed the natural order of things, we have increased the amount of water from rain that flows through the soil. It's getting more and more salty. We are affecting our coastal wetlands, as we call them, the lagoons and the lakes and the marshes, so that they are becoming both more salty and more clogged with silt and soil and debris. Water birds can, in some areas, no longer live there. Fish are dying. A lot of migratory fish and crabs, for example, are no longer migrating to their traditional breeding grounds. So our work, our approach, is--and I have to stress that it is scientific and therefore it's long-term, and we're really a very young group here in western Australia--but our approach is to attempt first to understand what has happened, to understand what is happening, and then slowly to be able to suggest ways of improving or halting what is happening which is bad and putting forward ideas for what might happen which is good, which is good both for people...

We're stuck with that, we're stuck with our urban... Whether we like it or not, we're stuck with our urban civilization. We're stuck with our Western way of doing things, unfortunately. But, that being the case, we...

Prabhupāda: Did the aborigines...? They were growing their food, the aborigines?

Justin Murphy: Oh, no, no, no, no. The aborigines grew nothing really. They were nomadic. They were mostly meat-eaters and insect-eaters. There are... For example, one of the staples of the aborigines was a very thick and very fat grub called a witchity grub, which lived in the roots of certain low bushes, and they used to tear the bush over and these fat grubs would appear which would be eaten live and raw.

Prabhupāda: Without cooking.

Justin Murphy: No cooking. No cooking. Immediately, wiggling. The fresher the better. They used to eat small furry animals, bandicoots, wombats. There were no rabbits, of course, in those days. Rabbit has been a disaster introduced by man, by European man. But they used to occasionally pound the grass seeds from a few species of arid sand grasses and make a kind of an unleavened bread, which they would then bake. But generally the aborigines were nomadic, they were shifting, and they didn't cultivate. They didn't till the soil ever. But we must, whilst attempting to provide for the inevitable Australian people and the growth of population, we must also try to do that within the confines and the dictates of nature and the natural resources which we have. Australia is very rich in a lot of natural resources; it's very, very poor in others. It is quite poor in water, and, of course, water is absolutely basic to the growth process. Australia has abundant sunlight, solar energy, which is the basis of photosynthesis.

Prabhupāda: Vegetable.

Justin Murphy: And vegetable growth. But we lack water. And in Perth we are doing an excellent job at ruining our water. It's criminal in many respects, what is going on. And this is what we must do. So we are trying to strike a balance between science for and research for the benefit of people. But it must be also for the benefit of the environment, because...

Prabhupāda: You find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād. A-n-n-a-d. Annād.

Paramahaṁsa: A-n-n-a-d. Hm.

Prabhupāda: Find out.

Paramahaṁsa:

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajïa, sacrifice, and yajïa is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Paramahaṁsa: Purport: "Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, a great commentator on the Bhagavad-gītā, writes as follows: ye indrādy-aìgatayāvasthitaṁ yajïaṁ sarveśvaraṁ viṣṇum abhyarcya tac-cheṣam aśnanti tena tad deha-yātrāṁ sampādayanti, te santaḥ sarveśvarasya bhaktāḥ sarva-kilbiṣair anādi-kāla-vivṛddhair ātmānubhava-pratibandhakair nikhilaiḥ pāpair vimucyante(?). The Supreme Lord, who is known as the yajïa-puruṣaḥ, or the personal beneficiary of all sacrifices, is the master of all demigods who serve Him as the different limbs of the body serve the whole. Demigods like Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, etc., are appointed officers who manage material affairs, and the Vedas direct sacrifices to satisfy these demigods so that they may be pleased to supply air, light and water sufficiently to produce food grains. When Lord Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, the demigods, who are different limbs of the Lord, are also automatically worshiped; therefore there is no separate need to worship the demigods.

For this reason, the devotees of the Lord, who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, offer food to Kṛṣṇa and then eat--a process which nourishes the body spiritually. By such action not only are past sinful reactions in the body vanquished, but the body becomes immunized to all contamination of material nature. When there is an epidemic disease, an antiseptic vaccine protects a person from the attack of such an epidemic. Similarly, food offered to Lord Viṣṇu and then taken by us makes us sufficiently resistant to material affection, and one who is accustomed to this practice is called a devotee of the Lord. Therefore, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, who eats only food offered to Kṛṣṇa, can counteract all reactions of past material infections, which are impediments to the progress of self-realization. On the other hand, one who does not do so continues to increase the volume of sinful action, and this prepares the next body to resemble hogs and dogs, to suffer the resultant reactions of all sins.

The material world is full of contamination, and one who is immunized by accepting prasādam of the Lord, food offered to Viṣṇu, is saved from the attack, whereas one who does not do so becomes subjected to contamination. Food grains or vegetables are factually eatables. The human being eats different kinds of food grains, vegetables, fruits, etc., and the animals eat the refuse of the food grains and vegetables, grass, plants, etc. Human beings who are accustomed to eating meat and flesh must also depend on the production of vegetation in order to eat the animals. Therefore, ultimately, we have to depend on the production of the field and not on the production of big factories. The field production is due to sufficient rain from the sky, and such rains are controlled by demigods like Indra, sun, moon, etc., and they are all servants of the Lord. The Lord can be satisfied by sacrifices; therefore, one who cannot perform them will find himself in scarcity--that is the law of nature.

Yajïa, specifically the saìkīrtana-yajïa prescribed for this age, must be therefore performed to save us at least from scarcity of food supply."

Prabhupāda: Did you follow? So the only remedy is that you should perform yajïa. And this yajïa is, in this age, yajïa, performance of yajïa, is very costly affair. At the present moment, things are not available. So you should perform yajïa. If you don't perform yajïa, then nature will restrict supply and put so many impediments. That yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ... If you regularly perform yajïa, then there will be sufficient rainfall. There is sufficient water. Just like all around there is water. There is no scarcity of water. But you cannot touch it without God's intervention. The same water will be converted into cloud and will be distributed on the land, and the water again glide down to the reservoir of water. This is nature's way. But if you do not perform yajïa, this machine will not work to get water from the sea, convert into cloud, and then distribute. This will be restricted.

Justin Murphy: But we must all perform yajïa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to perform yajïa. And that yajïa, at the present moment, is very easy, to... Saìkīrtanaiḥ yajïaiḥ. It is recommended that we have to recognize the authority of the Lord, and in this age, simply by performing saìkīrtana-yajïa, He will be satisfied. Saìkīrtana-yajïa means to glorify the Lord in so many ways. We glorify the Lord His form, His activities, His name, His quality. So it is not difficult job. We can sit together, family-wise, community-wise, or in office, in factory. We can sit down together and glorify the Lord. Is it very difficult job?

Justin Murphy: You make it sound very, very simple of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then why don't you accept it?

Justin Murphy: Well, I for one might. But...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not talking about you.

Justin Murphy: No, no, sure, certainly, but imagine the man, as we have to consider, the men, the thousands of them on their tractors, at their bulldozers, hacking down natural forest...

Devotee: He says we have to consider the men who are working the machines to take down the forest for agriculture... Is that what you mean?

Justin Murphy: The point I'm making is that there are so many people in Australia who would have no time. They are too busy making money. They are too busy doing what...

Prabhupāda: But what you will do with money? If there is no grain, then will you eat money? (laughter)

Justin Murphy: Certainly not.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Money is not required. Required--food grains.

Justin Murphy: But unfortunately, of course increasingly now, in our society, there is an increasing ability to produce food almost artificially. And this happens more and more...

Prabhupāda: Then where is the scarcity? Why you are complaining, "There is scarcity of water." Why? You are complaining, "scarcity." If there is enough food, then why you are complaining about scarcity?

Justin Murphy: Well, I complain because I am a geographer, because I am working with an eye to the future, with an eye to a long-term situation where I can see that...

Prabhupāda: But I... Your problem and my problem is not different. You are thinking... I am not thinking. It may be. But you require food grain, I require food grain, the animals require food grain, and everyone requires food grain. So if there is sufficient food grain, then everyone will be happy.

Justin Murphy: Yes, now perhaps. How about in fifty years' time though?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Justin Murphy: How about in fifty or a hundred years' time?

Prabhupāda: But you were complaining about scarcity of water.

Justin Murphy: Yes, sure.

Prabhupāda: Gradually...

Justin Murphy: But also... sorry, I don't mean--and perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough. I do not mean to address myself only to a problem which is here with us right now. Perth, for example, right now this city does not have a scarcity. There's plenty of water around. Seventy percent in fact of the water which is delivered to domestic homes every summer is put on gardens to make them green. It's not used for growing vegetables. It's not used for human consumption or human existence, for supporting human life. It's used for making lawns such as outside this house, making lawns and trees green so that houses will be attractive and the property values will go up. Once again it's the money ethic. It's the money situation. It's what our society exists on. It's what makes it all go around. But what I am worried about is the situation in a hundred years' time. There isn't a scarcity now, although the water is getting, is becoming less and less acceptable, where, by taking down the forests, we're letting more water seep into the soil, it's unlocking the salt that's been in the soil for thousands of years, and so on.

That's our problem. It's long term and it's complex. I'm worried about generations to come, not now.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If there is rainfall sufficiently, that water is distilled water, pure water. So if pure water is distributed all over the country...

Justin Murphy: It's pure when it hits the ground, but it isn't, unfortunately, when it comes out into the streams.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: He says it's pure when the rain comes down, but when it hits the ground it becomes impure and then the salt gets in it.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is not... Rain water is pure water.

Justin Murphy: Sure.

Prabhupāda: So when it touches the ground, it may become impure. It doesn't water (matter). But the water is pure. Water is coming. You cannot take water from the sea and moisten the ground with... That is not possible. But if pure water comes down from the rain, it is utilized.

Justin Murphy: But a lot of the water that is in our dams and the water that we use for irrigation south of here, which is the basis for the dairy produce of Perth, is becoming slowly, because of its contact with the ground and its travel through the soil and its seepage out into streams and into underground areas, that water is slowly becoming in many respects almost as salty as the sea.

Prabhupāda: But first of all, you want water. If the water is reserved on the top of the hill, then it gradually comes down. That is nature's, God's, arrangement: Let river fall down, and you can use that water. That is the nature's arrangement. Just like you keep your water on the tank, and by pipe you get down. But there is nature's arrangement. The water is stocked on the top of the hill, and throughout the whole year the pipe is the river. That water must be there. That is the first problem. Therefore here it is said, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. You must have sufficient water. Water is already there. But it has to be purified, kept on the top of the hill, water tank, and it will come down in rivers. Then you take and utilize. And when the water falls down and there is sufficient water, the ground becomes cleansed so it is no more polluted.

Justin Murphy: It's a very complex thing. In the hills outside Perth there are...

Prabhupāda: No, this is the general plan that you must have sufficient water. And that water must fall down from the cloud, not by your system you pump out water from the sea and utilize. That is not...

Justin Murphy: No, sure, we can't do that. We can't do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you must have pure water. And that water is manufactured or supplied through God's machine, not your machine.

Justin Murphy: Certainly not. And I wouldn't presume to suggest in any way that that was the case. What our problem is, though, is that because...

Prabhupāda: So that problem solved if you perform sacrifice. That is the verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. And yajïād bhavati parjanyo yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Very simple formula. If we follow this formula, that first of all, if we want regular water supply... That we want. Not that "if we want." We must have regular water supply. So that is possible by performing yajïa.

Justin Murphy: Um hm, um hm.

Prabhupāda: Yajïa means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajïa. Yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Karma means your activities. Whatever you are doing, that is karma. You are working as geologist? What is?

Justin Murphy: Geographer.

Prabhupāda: Geographer. And another man is working in the factory or somewhere else. Everyone is working. So by working the aim should be how to perform yajïa. That is... That should the... Suppose you are geographer, and I am a religious preacher, and he is a cultivator, he is a factory man, he is a motorcar driver. So that is all right. But if we sit down together and perform yajïa simply by glorifying the Lord, where is the loss in your part or my part or his part? Where is the loss? Suppose as a geographer, you sit down; as a religious preacher, I sit down; as a motorcar driver, he sits down; as a factory worker, he sits down and perform yajïa. Yajïa means we chant the holy name of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?

Justin Murphy: I wish it were as simple as that for the majority of people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Even the child can take part. Even the child, woman, educated, noneducated, rich man, poor man, worker--everyone can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So why don't you accept this formula?

Justin Murphy: How do you know that I haven't?

Prabhupāda: There is no check.

Justin Murphy: But how about the people living next door or the people...?

Prabhupāda: No, they can form different groups. You can form your group. Suppose there is hundred gentlemen in this neighborhood. We can sit down. If he has no time, they can sit down with family members. Everyone has got family. Everyone has got his wife, children or somebody else, servant. Sit down for half an hour and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty?

Justin Murphy: No difficulty at all. But it doesn't happen, does it?

Prabhupāda: We have to introduce. That is our movement.

Justin Murphy: Sure, yes, I can see that. But why aren't people doing it? Why aren't more people? In Perth, in this city, why aren't more doing it? I'll tell you one reason. And it is because Austra...

Prabhupāda: The people should be educated that "If you do not perform this yajïa, you will suffer."

Justin Murphy: But, of course, there are conflicting educations, aren't there?

Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be. What is the wrong there, that, if we sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any loss of our factory or work? But if there is some gain, why not try it?

Justin Murphy: A delightful idea, a beautiful idea, and a very simple-sounding idea. How about, however, the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, who are bound in this...

Prabhupāda: No, what is the... No, Roman Catholics... We don't say that Roman Catholics cannot perform yajïa. We say that you chant the holy name of God. So Roman Catholics they have God or not, no God?

Justin Murphy: Well, they think they do a lot of that on a Sunday morning.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, any religious system... Religious system means connection with God. Is it not?

Justin Murphy: Yeah, well, that's what it's supposed to be.

Prabhupāda: Without God, is there any religion? Any religion, is there any religion who will say, "No, we have no God." Is there any religion?

Justin Murphy: No.

Prabhupāda: So we are asking, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you are Roman Catholic...

Justin Murphy: Any man's God.

Prabhupāda: Any man's God. God is one. God cannot be two. But we are thinking...

Justin Murphy: Roman Catholics don't agree with you on that, do they? Roman Catholics have their own God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no.

Justin Murphy: And this is one of the problems. It's nowhere near as simple as, I am sure, as you suggest, and I wish it were.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is simple. It is simple.

Justin Murphy: The Roman Catholics are a jealous people. Roman Catholics are jealous religious people. They refuse even still to accept, for example, that Anglicans pray in the same way as they do. They refuse to accept that Anglicans pray as well as they do.

Prabhupāda: No, one thing is that may be Anglican, may be Roman Catholics, may be Christian, may be Hindu or Muslim or anyone. Whether they have God in their conception of religion or not. Do they have God or no God?

Justin Murphy: Well they all have. They must have, to be a religion.

Prabhupāda: So I am asking that "You chant the holy name of God. If you have God, you chant the holy name of that God." I don't say that "You chant the holy name of my God." You chant the holy name of your God. God is one. Just like water. Somebody says "water," somebody says "pāni," somebody says "jala," but the end is, the aim is, water. Similarly, God... I may say "Kṛṣṇa," you may say "jehovah," the Muslims may say "Allah," or others may say something else, but the aim is God.

Justin Murphy: Well, why aren't we better off then? Because obviously, therefore, going on what you've just said, there are a lot of people in Australia every day, perhaps certainly once every week, chanting the name of their God. Why then do we still have problems?

Prabhupāda: No, problem...

Justin Murphy: Are there not enough people chanting to their God or to the one God?

Prabhupāda: So problems... Suppose if you are... Aborigines, they have God? They have their name of God?

Justin Murphy: Yes, well, they have multiple gods, yes.

Prabhupāda: So if they chant the holy name of God there is no loss. At least there is no loss.

Justin Murphy: No, certainly, oh, well, we've established that, sure.

Prabhupāda: So why not begin this? There is no loss. You are not losing anything. Suppose if you chant the holy name of God as a geographer. Your salary is not decreased. So there is no...

Justin Murphy: Certainly not, no. But why is there...? If people are, in their own way, then, chanting to their God, why...

Prabhupāda: No, no... Ultimately, you require sufficient supply of water to grow your food, vegetables. Or even if you are animal-eater, to maintain your animals you require sufficient water. And that is recommended, that yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. And the yajïa is very simple: chanting the holy name of the Lord. So why not introduce, that every home, every factory, every community, every place, they should sit down at least for half an hour and chant the holy name of the Lord?

Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be...

Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"

Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply.

Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life. So...

Justin Murphy: But that's not what the multinational corporations that enjoy using Australia's resources are going to say. All of the hills to the east of Perth are almost entirely made up of bauxite, from which of course, we get, not that, the stainless steel, but from which we get aluminum. Aluminum is a very... Bauxite is a very, very favored material now. The West Indies are rich in it, and a few other countries, but not many. Australia is now part of, as they call it, part of "the bauxite club." And Dr. Cairns(?), our deputy prime minister and treasurer, was some months ago talking with a number of people in the West Indies about fixing world prices for bauxite and eventually aluminum. America has Comalco and Alcoa, two very large international groups, have large interests in the bauxite in the hills around Perth. They are out to make money. They're in it to return money to their shareholders in America.

Prabhupāda: But therefore, there are two ways of living. One way of living is called material enjoyment, or sense enjoyment. This is one way of life. In Sanskrit it is called pravṛtti-mārga, "How to enjoy more, more, more, more, more." This is called pravṛtti-mārga. That is going on. The whole... At the present moment the whole civilization, throughout the whole world--everyone is trying to get more money. More money means more sense enjoyment. More money means more sense enjoyment. This is called pravṛtti-mārga.

Justin Murphy: Well, maybe less enjoyment but more possessions.

Prabhupāda: No, enjoyment in this way of life more sense enjoyment, you will never be able to enjoy or happiness. That is not possible. That is the nature's way. (Aside:) You can close the door. If you simply want to enjoy, you can enjoy. But you will create more miseries. So this is one way of life, that you enjoy your senses and create more miseries. This is one way of life. And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord. This is one way of life. And the other way of life, that "We don't care for the Lord. Let us enjoy the senses to the topmost capacity and be happy..." So this way of life will never make you happy. You will simply go on struggling. This is one way of life. Another way of life, that the human life is meant for God realization...

That is Vedānta philosophy. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. Now, by evolutionary process, we have come to the human form of life, and it is meant for asking, "What is my constitutional position? Am I this body, or I am something else?" The dogs, he cannot put this inquiry. A dog, he thinks that he is dog, that's all. He is jumping, he is barking, and eating, sleeping, and having sex. That's all. If I ask one dog, "Please sit down. Hear Bhagavad-gītā," it is not possible. But you are human being, if I ask you, "Mr. such and such, sit down, hear from the Bhagavad-gītā," you can do that. First of all we must know the difference between dog and me. The dog is incapable to understand Bhagavad-gītā. But human being... Just like we are selling this book in the Western countries, many millions of copies, because they are human being. We are not selling among the cats and dogs.

Justin Murphy: Hm, no.

Prabhupāda: So if a human being does not become inquisitive to understand what he is, in which way his progress should me made, then he remains a dog. The dog cannot do it. And we have got the capacity. If we neglect this facility and remain like a dog, simply engaged in eating, sleeping, sex, and defense, then we remain dog. Then again we become dog. The opportunity was given to us to understand the problems of life, how to solve. If you don't take this opportunity, facility, if you simply remain like dog, then we are next life... That also they do not understand, that there is next life. Do you believe in the next life? You, a person, do you believe in a next life?

Justin Murphy: No, I don't.

Prabhupāda: You do not.

Justin Murphy: No.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Now...

Justin Murphy: So therefore I'm bad material.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...believe it.

Justin Murphy: But I will become an old man anyway in the course of my life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore there is future life. If you say, "I don't believe in it,"...

Justin Murphy: Are you talking about reincarnation, life after death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Reincarnation, you are already reincar... Where is your that childhood body? Where is that body?

Justin Murphy: Here it is. It's grown.

Prabhupāda: No. No, it is changed.

Justin Murphy: It's grown, it's changed, it's evolved, I have evolved. Just like evolution, I have evolved to the situations...

Prabhupāda: Anyway... Just try to understand. Anyway, that, your boy's body or childhood body is no longer. Either you say changed or grown, whatever you say, it doesn't matter.

Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones, it's the same skin.

Prabhupāda: But you are the same man. That's a fact. You understand that you were a child or you were a boy, youthful boy, jumping. You remember that body, but that body is not existing. That's a fact.

Justin Murphy: I can't agree.

Prabhupāda: And why not? Suppose somebody had seen your childhood body, and for many years he has not seen you, and he all of a sudden comes. Suppose your father's friend. So father introduces. He says, "Oh, you are the same?" He will be surprised because he saw you in a childhood body.

Justin Murphy: But I'm less interested in what...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think that you have changed your body. The other man says, "Oh, you have grown up?" Or... Generally they take it as grown up. But the actual position is the body has changed.

Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones. It's the same skin. My face looks just about the same.

Prabhupāda: Not it is same. Medically, it is not the same.

Justin Murphy: The functions are different, but it's the same heart that's beating, the same veins...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, it is not the same body. Just like in your childhood, when you were a boy, you had no sex impulse. Now you have got sex impulse. The body of a child, the body of a boy, they cannot understand sex life because the body is different. And now, because you have got different body, you can feel what is sex life. So it is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it is growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly. Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, but because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. That is the fact. There are hundreds and thousands of pictures passed on. When you see that "This man is taking the stick and bringing this way," this means there are many pictures. So similarly, it is like a spool. Your body is changing every moment. That is medical science.

Justin Murphy: Absolutely. Yes. At every moment.

Prabhupāda: So changing. So you are changing your body. That's a fact. But because you are seeing all in one spool, you are thinking, "It is growing; it is moving." That's all. But it is changing. This is the science. So body is changing. And you remember that you had such-and-such body. Therefore you are different from the body. This is the science. So unless we understand that "I am not this body. I am different from the body. I am changing bodies. Therefore I will have to change this body and accept another body..." This is the science, beginning of scientific knowledge. Without understanding this fact his advancement of knowledge is simply for eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. There is no advancement. According to Vedic literature, he remains animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijïeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

If we cannot understand ourself... It is very simple, that "I have changed my body so many times, so naturally, when this body will be useless in this life, then I will have to accept another body." This is the version of... (Aside:) You find out.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

Read it.

Paramahaṁsa: English?

Prabhupāda: English and..., yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Sanskrit first?

Prabhupāda: Uh huh.

Paramahaṁsa:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

Translation: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization.

Justin Murphy: Do you mean that the, that that, then, will allow me, if I come to that realization, that that will allow me to then continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge...

Prabhupāda: As far... Yes.

Justin Murphy: ...beyond say the normal sixty-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body?

Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem. Unfortunately, the modern education is... Leaders, they have no education, and they are thinking just like animal that "I am this body." Therefore you are thinking you are Australian, I am thinking I am Indian, he is thinking American, he..., only on this bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. We are different from this body. So unless we understand this point, our aim of life, our standard of civilization, is incorrect.

Justin Murphy: I suppose it's very easy to understand and to credit that so many people will be thinking maybe this way because that's part of the basis of being selfish, and, after all, a lot of people, particularly, I would imagine, a lot of Australians, are basically selfish. They are interested far more in what they can get and do for themselves not necessarily by working hard, by striving or by reading or by thinking or by studying. They, they... The old saying...

Prabhupāda: The human life is meant for acquiring knowledge, real knowledge.

Justin Murphy: But so many people don't see it that way.

Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.

It will be chaotic society. That is the present position, that there is no first-class men, there is no second-class men. There may be some third-class men, and all fourth-class men. This is the position. Therefore the whole human society is in chaotic condition. The first-class man should understand this. Therefore it is called dhīras tatra na muhyati. What is the meaning of dhīra? Just see.

Paramahaṁsa: Sober.

Prabhupāda: Sober, gentle. He understands immediately. Because...

Justin Murphy: But would you... Again... This thing, the attainment of this first class, which, if I understand you correctly, you're saying is very, very necessary for...

Prabhupāda: All are necessary.

Justin Murphy: ...for the removal... Yes, sure. But you're saying that we don't have the first class of man.

Prabhupāda: So you create.

Justin Murphy: But... But...

Prabhupāda: By education you create.

Justin Murphy: Fine. But how... O.K. How about, then the, some of the ancient and maybe even now the latter-day philosophers...

Prabhupāda: No, just see...

Justin Murphy: ...the men of sobriety and gentleness, the Bertrand Russells for example.

Prabhupāda: They have to be trained. Just like you have been trained up as geographer; similarly, a certain man can be trained up as first-class man by education.

Justin Murphy: But trained by others or trained by themselves?

Prabhupāda: No, there must be institution.

Justin Murphy: But surely training by oneself. But training by oneself, such as for example an Albert Einstein or a Bertrand Russell...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no, no. By teacher. You have become geographer not by yourself.

Justin Murphy: Oh, yes, but we also have many... I'm nowhere near what you're saying is a first-class. I'm talking about some of our latter-day philosophers, and Bertrand Russell is a person, for example, who, for gentleness, sobriety, and thought, whom I admire very much. And he has attained that himself. He hasn't been... He was certainly, as we all must be, surely, trained to begin with. But then it's a process of individual thought.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution--this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer--as there are different departments.

Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.

Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first-class men, all third class, fourth class.

Justin Murphy: What are the specifications for your first-class man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. Satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā.

Paramahaṁsa: Satyam?

Prabhupāda: Śamo damas titikṣā, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Eighteenth Chapter.

Paramahaṁsa: Satyam or satya?

Prabhupāda: Satya. S-a-t-y-a. (devotee looking for verse) You find out jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam. Jïānam, find out jïānam. J-n-a-n, jïānam.

Paramahaṁsa: Jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam, 18.42.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

Translation: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class man.

Justin Murphy: Who decides whether a man, then, is..., fits into those criteria and becomes a first-class man? Who decides? Who is to say whether a man is first class or not?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He should be first of all qualified like this. What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness.

Justin Murphy: But once a man has strived for those qualities, how does he know when he's attained them? And...

Prabhupāda: No, you... Śamaḥ, śamaḥ. The first word is śamaḥ?Śamaḥ means equilibrium of the mind. One should be trained up in such a way that he is not disturbed in his mind in any circumstance. That is called śamaḥ. And damaḥ, damaḥ means controlling the senses. Naturally I find one beautiful woman I want to talk with him (her), and he (she) is other's wife. But I should: "No, why should I talk with other's wife?" This is damaḥ, controlling the senses. So śamaḥ means keeping the mind always equipoised, and damaḥ, the controlling the mind. And suppose if... I have to eat something to live. So God has given me so many nice foodstuff: food grain, fruits, milk. Why should I kill an animal unnecessarily, for the taste of my tongue?

Justin Murphy: Selfishness.

Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business.

Justin Murphy: But so many of us, of course, are used to it. We like it.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking about you particularly, but general way, general way. So this is first-class man. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā. Now, suppose I was not a first-class man; I was a fourth-class man. Now I want to become a first-class man. So I was eating meat. Just these boys, European, American boys, they were eating everything. Now they have given up. On my word or to associate with me, they have given up meat-eating, illicit sex, meat-eating. So in the beginning it may be disturbing because "I am habituated to all these things, and by my spiritual master order not to do this..." So it may be disturbing. But that is called titikṣā, tolerance: "No, I have to do it. If I want to make progress to become first-class man, this is order, so I must do it even..." The tolerance. Even it is disturbing... In the beginning. It is not disturbing. In the beginning, because I habituated to do something... Just like a thief. If you ask him to become honest, it will be disturbing for him because he is habituated to steal.

So that we have to tolerate. Therefore it is called titikṣā. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam. Ārjavam means simple life, simplicity, that "If I can live in this way, why shall I acquire so many things for artificial life?" That is called ārjavam. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam, then jïānam. Jïānam means knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. My..." Actually that is the fact. This body is not important. The living force within the body is important. As soon as the living force goes out of the body, what is this value? You may be a great geographer or scientist or Professor Einstein or whatever. As soon as the living force is gone, you are useless, this body is useless. You have to throw it. That is jïānam, that "I am taking so much care of this material body, which will not exist, which I shall, become... 'Dust thou art; dust thou beist.' Again it will mix up with these dirty things. I am taking so much care of this body. What about that living force, which is important?"

Nobody is taking care. Therefore they are not in jïānam, knowledge. They are in ignorance just like cats and dogs. This is called jïānam. And the vijïānam. Vijïānam means practical application of the knowledge. That is called vijïānam, science. Scientific knowledge there is. Jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam. Āstikyam means to believe in the authority. That is called āstikyam. Just like we are speaking about this Bhagavad-gītā because it is spoken by the most supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa. To believe in the authority. You also believe in authority. But ultimately, in this way, if we acquire this qualification, then we become first-class man. So anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth class, fifth class. And now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become geographer, anyone can become engineer by proper training.

Justin Murphy: Do you think you'll make it?

Paramahaṁsa: I'm making progress.

Prabhupāda: They are young men. They are all within thirty years.

Justin Murphy: And your aim, all of you, is to become first-class men?

Devotee: Yes.

Justin Murphy: Does it matter how long it might take you? Can you become first-class men soon, within five years?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, sufficient, sufficient. We can make in one year.

Justin Murphy: Really. I wish you all well. Well, I hope I won't give you offense if I look at my watch and say that...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a very important matter. If you do not spare time, that is your business, but... (laughs)

Justin Murphy: I'm afraid my life is one of these selfish lives. It's a life that's dominated by...

Prabhupāda: No, it is natural, just natural. Just like why first-class men required in society? Just like in your body there is first-class part, second-class part, third-class part, and fourth-class part. Just like your head is the first-class part of your body. If your head is cut off, then everything is finished.

Justin Murphy: True.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if in the society, if we don't create first-class men, that society is dead. That society is dead. So at the present moment there is no first-class men according to this word. Therefore there is chaotic condition, problems, and so on, so on, so on. So unless you create at least a few percentage of the people first-class men according to this standard, there cannot be any progress. This is my last word to you.

Justin Murphy: Thank you. I wish you all well, and maybe I should think along those lines myself. It's been most interesting talking to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is necessary to create a class of men first class, ideal. And if you all create fourth-class men, then there cannot be peace. It is not possible.

Justin Murphy: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Justin Murphy: Excellent talking to you. Thank you very much and I wish you well in Melbourne and then in Hawaii?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fiji and Hawaii. You can keep his address. He may talk with you.

Śrutakīrti: Here is a sweet we have made from milk product.

Justin Murphy: Thank you. Good night.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Paramahaṁsa: He said that... When we were walking to the car, he said... I was talking to him a little bit about it, and I gave him some magazines to read. He said it is very convincing argument about the, why the problems are all there because of the bodily concept of life. So he said, "It is a very convincing point of view and very thought-provoking." So I think he listened very well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if this kind of man will understand--they are in position--that will be a great... He is better than so many clergies.

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...

Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..."

What is...? You are all rascals. Nature is working differently. That they do not know. They do not believe in the nature's authority. They think, "We have become authority."

Paramahaṁsa:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

Translation: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is pulled by the ear by the nature, "You rascal, you have associated with this quality. You do this. You must accept this body." That he does not know. "Now you have acted like dog, you accept this body of a dog." This is nature's creation. You cannot say, "No, no, no, I don't want this body." No, you must. "You acted like dog, you take this body of a dog." That he does not know. He is thinking, "I am all in all; I am independent." That is foolishness. The whole world, big, big scientists and philosophers, all in ignorance, and they are being pulled by the ear by nature. That they do not know. What is the purport I have given?

Paramahaṁsa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead,..." (end)

 

Room  Conversation                                        May 14, 1975, Perth                                                               392582

Prabhupāda: Any city which has river and sunshine is considered to be first class.

 

Discussion                                                       May 15, 1975, Perth                                                               392769                                       

Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.

He doesn't know that "I may become a tree like this." Then he must be... Why there are varieties of life? This is different type of punishment for different kinds of sinful activities. And he doesn't care for sinful activities. He got the human form of body, he doesn't care. Saintly persons, they are coming as Caitanya Mahāprabhu or Buddha or Christ. They are warning, "You do not do this." No, they will do it. So who is responsible for his sufferings? He is responsible. And so long he has got this short duration of life, fifty or sixty years or utmost hundred years, he is thinking, "I am free. Whatever I want, I can do," and making life risky. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. He is not independent. He knows that. Still, he will declare independence and suffer. This is the position. He is not independent; that he knows very well. But still, he will act independently. Is it not the position? Who can think that he is independent unless he is a madman? Hmm? Are you independent?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," then he is sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. One man is dying. A dhīra knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhīra, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhīra knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti. From śāstra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world.

And if he is in ignorance, then he is going to be animal. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. He knows. So he understood what is meant by first-class men?

Amogha: He seemed to understand a lot. I don't know if he could understand completely, but...

Prabhupāda: No...

Paramahaṁsa: As he walked out the door he said, "Now I have to go back and lead my fourth-class life." (laughter)

Amogha: Yes, he said that.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then he has understood. Yes, it is all fourth-class men. He is considered a first-class man in the society. We say to him that "You are a fourth-class man." On what strength we can say like that? And he has to admit. That is our philosophy. Any first-class man, so-called first-class man, we can also say that "You are a fourth-class man," and he will agree. And if he admits, then he becomes first-class man. Then he can make progress. "I am living, a fourth-class man. I must be a first-class man." That is knowledge. So he was asking you, "Are you living first-class now?"

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What was his question?

Paramahaṁsa: In the room?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, he said, "Are you all becoming first-class men? You want to become first-class men?" Before he left he said it was very nice meeting... And he looked and he said, "It's nice meeting you all."

Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahmā. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets these facilities. And with Brahmā, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world.

Devotee (1): Just by becoming first-class men.

Prabhupāda: That is described. Śamo damas titikṣā, that... You were not here, hearing? That is first class.

Devotee (1): So just by becoming first-class men you can go to the heavenly planets?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is meant for a first-class man. Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti. Ürdhvam means higher planetary system.

Devotee (1): Are we not training all classes of men? In Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.

Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.

Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRO. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: And he is in a good position materially.

Devotee (1): You spoke to three of those men in Melbourne last time.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Amogha: Those scientists who came to see you last year in Melbourne were also from that organization.

Devotee (1): The same place.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Amogha: There were three men and you made them eat the gulabjammon.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. He was there?

Amogha: No, no. But they were from the same organization, the Melbourne branch.

Prabhupāda: Oh. The same scientists came.

Amogha: Yes. They were from the same...

Prabhupāda: Oh, he remembers. Then that man remembers, I gave him gulabjammon.

Amogha: No, not this man.

Prabhupāda: That other man.

Amogha: Oh, yes. He sure did. That's a all-over Australia organization.

Prabhupāda: Good organization.

Devotee (1): They are inquisitive because they come to see you.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you did not invite him?

Amogha: Yes, but he would not come unless he was interested.

Prabhupāda: In the modern society there is no idea of first-class man, what is first-class man. They take it, a minister is first-class man. A first-class man is by these qualities: śamo damas titikṣā. It is not by the fat salary. By the first-class qualities.

Amogha: Some people, like this man, they notice that qualities are degrading and natural resources are degrading, so many problems are coming. But they don't know what to do. They're simply reporting that "There we go down."

Prabhupāda: They cannot counteract. The counteraction is here in our society. They should accept it. Then it will be all right. So become first-class man. Everyone will hear you. And you can face any so-called first-class man and talk with him straightforward that "You are fourth class." (laughter) (devotees offer obeisances) (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                May 14(?),1975, Perth                                                             392219

Paramahaṁsa: In the newspaper yesterday there was an article about New York City. The city government is going bankrupt because they... They have asked the President for 1,500 million dollars in emergency aid. Because of crime and dirtiness and noise, all the rich people are leaving New York, and they can't get any taxes from the poor people. So they don't have money to pay to run the city.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen. New York is very dilapidated, many quarters. And especially Second Avenue, those are very dirty. The... On the Fifth Avenue, that Central Park is also very dirty. This civilization will collapse. It cannot be run on. Fourth-class men, I tell. Because it is conducted by the fourth-class men. Ask that gentleman why they are asking. Are they not fourth-class men? They could not manage?

Śrutakīrti: That man last night admitted. He said, "Now I must leave and do my fourth-class activities."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fourth class. This is the proof. Fourth-class men administering... Just like misadministration not immediately detected. After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men. Simply these Western people, they know how to earn money by hook and crook. So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth-class men. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character, nothing of the sort. Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇòita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases.

Amogha: Just like that girl who came two days ago, that Indian girl. Her parents were separated. Now she is living thousands of miles away with some boy.

Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce.

Amogha: They are very Western, westernized.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then?

Prabhupāda: No... They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca. The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test.

Devotee (1): What if that fever is not being diminished?

Prabhupāda: Then he should try to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, instead of sixteen rounds, sixty-four rounds. That is the way. Sixteen round is the minimum. Otherwise Haridāsa Öhākura was 300,000. So you have to increase. That is the only remedy. If one has got determination, he will make progress without any trouble. That determination is very difficult, that determination, "I must be Kṛṣṇa conscious fully." That determination. Dṛòha-vratāḥ. So they have asked to the central government, federal government, help?

Paramahaṁsa: In New York? Yes, they asked from the President, President Ford.

Prabhupāda: That is federal government.

Paramahaṁsa: Federal government, yes. And President Ford said no.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he said no. He said, "If I give New York money then every city will come for money..."

Prabhupāda: Yes...

Paramahaṁsa: "...when they have some trouble." He said, "You made the trouble. Now you work it out."

Prabhupāda: That's good answer. "You fourth-class man, you have created the situation. Now you save the situation."

Paramahaṁsa: They used to borrow money from the banks every year, the city government of New York. They used to borrow money from the banks.

Prabhupāda: Bank has refused?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, they won't loan any more money because they know the tax money won't come in.

Prabhupāda: Just see the position. The bank is refusing loan to the municipal corporation, city corporation. They have no credit.

Śrutakīrti: So that means the city will increase their taxes on the public.

Prabhupāda: But if the public is moving from the city, where is the source of taxation?

Paramahaṁsa: That's the big problem. All the rich people are leaving because they're getting so much tax and so many other problems. And big business also is leaving.

Prabhupāda: Where they are leaving?

Paramahaṁsa: Just to the suburbs, outside the city.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śrutakīrti: Also they move their headquarters to other cities, newer cities. Just like in Dallas, that area. Atlanta.

Prabhupāda: This artificial way of life will lead to such disasters. It is a most artificial way of life. It is not natural way. This bus goes this way--I see every day vacant, no passenger. And still, they have to run as scheduled. They cannot stop it. That means so much wastage. Not only bus, I have seen aeroplane. From Nairobi to London, you have seen? We were five passengers or four passengers. No passengers.

Śrutakīrti: Four or three, maybe three.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen? Yes. Such a big plane, consuming so much petrol, vacant passanger. No except ourselves.

Śrutakīrti: Many times we have had that experience.

Devotee (1): That is what is happening with these big planes. They're building these big...

Amogha: 747's.

Devotee (1): No...

Paramahaṁsa: Can't remember the name. You mean the supersonic ones?

Devotee (1): Yeah, the big jets, and no one can... There's not enough people to fly in them. Therefore they have to finish them. They have to scrap their big jets. They're not of any use because there's not enough people to fly. They're coming to the end of their technological research. Also in the cars they cannot... There's one car, the Volkswagen. They cannot refine the body any more, so now they're simply making the same car each year without any change in the design, because they've reached the perfection of their design and they're not making any more advancement. They're coming to a halt.

Prabhupāda: When they will come to a halt to their sex desire? They have designed so many ways sex desire. The... Who was telling me that some beach, all naked women are there?

Amogha: Oh, yes. In Australia also. They reserve a certain beach for naked bathers.

Prabhupāda: So this is also sex desire. When it will come to end? Most artificial civilization. And the man who came, he is meant for solving the problems, huh?

Amogha: Yes. Usually those type of persons, they just study the problems, but...

Prabhupāda: So what is the study? Anyone can study. Just like we are giving: "It is a most artificial civilization."

Śrutakīrti: He's drawing a big salary for studying. He's getting a big research salary.

Paramahaṁsa: And he's teaching others how to study the problems, but there's no solution.

Amogha: They have no solution actually.

Prabhupāda: The solution is there. They won't take it. Solution is there, that everyone produce your own food. There is so much land; utilize it. The solution is there. No. They want to sit down on the table, chair, in a very nice compartment, and making solution. They won't go.

Amogha: He was saying that your solution was too simple. He said that people will not accept it because it is too simple.

Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. They will say it is primitive. That is the only solution. According to the Vedic system, you cannot use anything which you cannot produce. Suppose this we are using, but according the Vedic system we should not use it because I cannot produce it. Then the whole solution is there. Nobody will manufacture this because there will be no customer. If I refuse this use of this machine, thinking that "I cannot produce it; I should not use it," then where is the customer? The so-called industry will automatically stop, and he has to go to the village outlying.

Paramahaṁsa: Some of the orthodox hippies have this philosophy, and they reject all machines and things that they cannot make themselves.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization. Now this land is vacant. We can produce so much food grains if it is utilized. Fruits, flower, vegetables, grains--we can produce. This land is very good land for producing potato, watermelon, this. Very good land. But who is doing that? This is the suitable land for producing watermelon. And watermelon is such a nice thing, and potato. You boil potato and take watermelon, you have full nourishment are supplied. Very innocent and simple food.

Paramahaṁsa: In one science magazine they have published recently there's an article by a man who says we must eat meat because the plants don't have any fatty tissues for making brain tissue, so they say...

Prabhupāda: Rascal. So your brain is causing disaster; still you are developing brain? (laughter) Your brain is causing bankruptcy, and still you want to develop this rubbish brain? Begging money, "You give us money so that we can maintain"? And what is the use of this brain? Burn this brain. Advise him that "You better burn your brain so that you may not create any more disaster." To keep his brain, one animal must be sacrificed. And the brain work is this, that they are creating disaster. What is the use of this brain?

Paramahaṁsa: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long.

Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. "A blind man is leading other blind men."

Devotee (1): Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (pause) Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.

Amogha: But if they actually go to the forest, then that will be one step.

Prabhupāda: No, it is disappointment. It is simply disappoint... That is not solution. But people will do that. When the one is mad he doesn't know what to do--"Let me go to the forest." Achinna dāra-draviṇaṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam, it is said. Giri means mountain, and kānanam means forest. Giving up their hearth and home... They are already giving up the home, wife, children, and going away. Everybody doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in so many cases the hippies, they went to the forest, and because there was no standard of spiritual life there, they became discouraged also. They ran into the same problems in the forest that they had in the cities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So therefore many of these communities that they started back in, about ten years ago, 1960's, they have all folded up because there was nothing to hold them together.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no engagement. Therefore we are proposing that eat nicely, live nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the engagement. But they have no such engagement. How they will live? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. Every living entity wants some pleasure, but this pleasure is finished. Therefore athāto brahma-jijïāsā. Now they seek... Let them seek out pleasure from Brahmān. So that they do not know. Now the situation is then no monies. Then they will tax. Those who are living, they will be disturbed by taxation. They have no other means. Kara-piditaḥ. Kara means tax, and pidita means disturbed. They will be like that.

Amogha: And they will also be forced out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Such a huge city, if there is no money, they will tax those who are living there more and more. That is the only alternative. If you want actually peaceful life, then produce your own necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read these books. This is the only solution. There is no other solution. What is the use of running fifty miles by car to go to one's office and sit down in the office and make plan how to exploit others? This way? This is the business:" Make some plan, bluff people, advertisement, and money will come." This is their business. They are not giving anything, simply bluffing. Just like crossword. They are engaged in making solution. You know that, crossword?

Amogha: The crossword? You mean the puzzle?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the whole day they are making solution. This is their means of earning money. I have seen it. (pause) (chuckles) He has taken that word very seriously, "fourth-class men." The whole civilization is

condemned and producing fourth-class men. And that's a fact.

Devotee (1): Just like you say. Some of the devotees, they fall down although they're striving to be in the mode of goodness. If they're sincere, they still fall down?

Prabhupāda: If they are sincere, how they can fall down? They are not sincere; therefore they fall down.

Amogha: Madhudviṣa Swami was telling us once that sincerity must be combined with spiritual strength.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual strength means sincerity and sincerity means spiritual strength. If I promise before the fire, before the Deity, before my spiritual master that "I shall observe the rules and regulation," and if I don't follow, then where is my sincerity?

Devotee (1): But the devotees, they're trying to be in the mode of goodness. In the Bhagavad-gītā...

Prabhupāda: Well, the trying... Then why do you take initiation and promise? You are trying. First of all, you be fixed up. Why do you cheat Kṛṣṇa, the spiritual master, the fire? If you are not fixed up, you should not take initiation. Go on.

Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna asks...

Prabhupāda: No, you can fall down unconsciously. But if you fall consciously, that is cheating. I do not want. I am trying to keep myself steady, but still, if I fall, that is excused. But if you purposely... Just like the Christian atonement. They go to the church and admit, "Yes, I have done these sinful activities, so I pay you something. Excuse it." That is not sincerity. And again, next week, he does the same thing. That is not sincerity.

Paramahaṁsa: What would an example of unconscious falldown be?

Prabhupāda: Unconscious falldown, that... Suppose I am prone to... I was very much fond of smoking, but I have given up. So in a society there is smoking, so I become induced. He offers me cigarette, and unconsciously I smoke. Then I must repent, "Oh, what I have done?" That is excused. But if I secretly smoke and outwardly I show I am a devotee, then what is this? This is cheating.

Devotee (1): Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sometimes the living entities are compelled to act because of lust.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Even unwillingly.

Prabhupāda: That is... Unwillingly, when it is done, that is excused. And willingly, when it is done, it is cheating. That in your America there was a Moral Rearmament Movement. So it flourished for some days. Their process was admit, admission of sinful activities, that Christian method. "So I will admit. That's all. Again I do. 'Yes, I have done this.' Then my all reaction is gone. Then again I do it." That is described in the Bhāgavata, kuïjara-śaucavat, the elephant, elephant's cleanliness. Elephants cleanse very nicely in the water, and as soon as come on the land, they will take dust and throw, immediately. So what is the use of cleansing? Kuïjara-śaucavat. You cleanse; again you become unclean. Then what is the use of cleaning?

Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to Gurukula so they would not be so mistrained.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing, because he has become attracted to women again?

Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the...

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together they fall down in the... All these nuns, they are all complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head minister was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they pay money. Business is going on.

Amogha: Where is that āśrama?

Prabhupāda: Brahmacārīṇi.

Amogha: Oh. In Calcutta?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only in India. They have got many branches.

Amogha: They call them brahmacārīṇi?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because nowadays almost every girl is unmarried. So they have devised this āśrama that "Come here." And women can be sold at any cost. People are lusty. So one woman supplied, he pays hundred rupees, two hundred rupees. Business is going on.

Amogha: They come for pilgrimage?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They will be sent to your house. Pay for it. Hotel. In the Kali-yuga the sex impulse is so strong, but it is utilized in so many ways. The yogis, swamis, school, college, philosophy--at the end sex, that's all. That example, dog's tail. Whatever you do, greasing, the tail will be like this. (break) I think it is sooner. It takes time less than for going there.

Devotee (1): Oh, I came the short way.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he came by the short way.

Devotee (1):. Yes.

Prabhupāda: (break) This man is unemployed... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 15, 1975, Perth                                                               392817

Prabhupāda: This man is unemployed, and if we engaged him for plowing, will he do that?

Paramahaṁsa: I don't think so. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Amogha: That's too hard, that's work. "We don't want to work like that, we just want some easy job."

Prabhupāda: Then you suffer.

Śrutakīrti: That would mean they had to leave the city. They don't want to leave the city.

Prabhupāda: Then go to hell.

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, we received news yesterday that one man in northern New South Wales is willing to sell us a farm, a great big farm out there in the southern tropics. Would this be a good place for engaging boys like the Indian, the Indian boy that came yesterday?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our next program is to organize farming. Let anyone come. We shall give him free food and employment: "Come on." Not that "I want to work as a clerk in the city." You produce your own food. I give you ingredients. I give you land. And work for five, six hours, and take your food and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Anybody who comes to the farm has to agree to follow the four regulative principles? These people?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise you are not coming. Our main business is to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious.

 

Prabhupāda: (break) How they will serve? The proposal...(break) that how... (break) ...they have disco... (break) They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?

Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness...

Prabhupāda: But the heater is not curing the suffering.

Amogha: But it makes us warm.

Prabhupāda: But a heater, how many men will get heater?

Amogha: Well, we can make them cheaply so that practically everyone...

Prabhupāda: You can, but you do not, neither you can.

Amogha: But in this country everyone, all these houses have heaters.

Prabhupāda: In the... Why do you take in this country? Why not other country?

Amogha: Well, so many countries.

Prabhupāda: Where? That is simply bluff. You cannot do it. Cannot do it. Suffering must be there.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept the suffering is there, but we will still try to reduce it. That's all.

Prabhupāda: Reduce...

Paramahaṁsa: By inventing so many things.

Prabhupāda: That is another bluffing. You have already invented so many things. Where is the reduction of suffering?

Amogha: Well, there are less diseases, we are finding so many cures now that...

Prabhupāda: I don't find less diseases. You are increasing hospitals.

Śrutakīrti: Well, now we're taking care of the diseased people. Before, no one ever took care.

Paramahaṁsa: Like in India, for example.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if you take care, what is the result? You have to increase hospitals.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, that's cause the population is increasing.

Prabhupāda: That is not the fact.

Amogha: Just like in Australia.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore your proposal is failure. You increase your, what is called, amenities?

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The population increases. The proportion remains the same.

Śrutakīrti: But we're taking care of them.

Amogha: At least we're helping them.

Prabhupāda: No, you are taking care of them, but the population increasing, therefore you cannot take care of every one of them.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes, because we increase our hospitals therefore we can...

Prabhupāda: Ah, you are increasing and population increasing, that's all.

Paramahaṁsa: And then we keep increasing according to the population.

Prabhupāda: Then go on struggling. That is struggling. There is no question of decreasing. Proportionate. Proportionately, you increase the amenities, and proportionately the distress increases.

Paramahaṁsa: It's just like in some countries the diseased men, they suffer in the street, but here we give them a nice place to suffer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: They can suffer in a nice warm hospital...

Prabhupāda: So you are increasing this cancer. Very comfortable at home, but there is cancer.

Paramahaṁsa: But now we have almost got the cure.

Prabhupāda: You have, all right. My point is that you have so many things, but the suffering is going on. That is my point. You increase your means of diminishing suffering, but they are coming in a different way. So the sufferings cannot be stopped. That is not possible. This is the conclusion.

                                                                                                                                                                        392942

Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.

                                                                                                                                                                        392954

Devotee (1): If a man simply works for Kṛṣṇa for his whole life, yet he doesn't follow the regulative principles...

Prabhupāda: Then how he follows Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee (1): That's not possible.

Prabhupāda: If you are following Kṛṣṇa, then how you can violate the regulative principles?

Devotee (1): Just like they follow a few regulative principles, like the basic four: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, and no intoxication. If they follow those four regulative principles and just work for Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: He doesn't follow the four principles?

Devotee (1): Oh, yes. Yes. There's this one devotee in Sydney who works very hard for Kṛṣṇa, but...

Prabhupāda: But does not follow.

Devotee (1): He does not like āratis or things like that. He just likes to work hard all the time.

Śrutakīrti: He follows the principles, but he doesn't go to ārati, maybe he doesn't chant his rounds, but he's working...

Devotee (1): Real hard for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Like Gargamuni. (laughter)

Śrutakīrti: Yes, like that. And his plea is that Kṛṣṇa says...

Prabhupāda: Then he will fall down.

Devotee (1): He will fall down?

Śrutakīrti: But the plea is that Kṛṣṇa says in the Gītā, "By working for Me one can come to the perfectional stage."

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he will fall down.

Śrutakīrti: That means "By working for Me eventually one will come to the point of follow the principles and..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: Not "Simply by working for Me you can do it."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: You will advance to the other stages.

Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is working hard, but he will never become rich, then what is the use? Working hard means one must become rich. But if he does not become rich, simply working hard, then what is the use? Śrama eva hi kevalam. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You must follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is your honesty, and sādhu-saìga, this can be done--association with devotees. ṣaòbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "This is the way of increasing devotional service."

 

 

 

Morning Walk                                                   May 16, 1975, Perth                                                              392978

Paramahaṁsa: ...the history of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday?

Prabhupāda: Why not Monday first?

Amogha: Well, the sun...

Devotee (1): God created the earth, in the Bible. God started on a Monday. He created the earth. It says in the Bible in the Old Testament that it took Him seven days, or six days, and on the seventh day He rested. But still there is some dispute whether He started on a Sunday or a Monday. So the Jewish, the Hebrews, they hold the Sabbath on a Saturday, and the Christians and the Catholics they have the Sabbath on the Sunday. But on the seventh day God rested after creating the heavens and the earths.

Śrutakīrti: It was always very bad to engage in any type of work on the Sabbath day. It was used only to glorify the Lord.

Paramahaṁsa: For fishing.

Amogha: Not any more. Now the post office is closed on Saturday and open all day on Sunday in Perth.

Prabhupāda: They have changed?

Amogha: Yes. They are open on the Sabbath.

Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hm? That is the description in the Bhāgavatam. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen it.

Amogha: Mars is above the moon?

Śrutakīrti: But the scientists wouldn't even agree that the sun is the first created thing.

Prabhupāda: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten?

Śrutakīrti: That was gotten from Greek mythology.

Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it?

Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden.

Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods?

Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology.

Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they made it up.

Amogha: But all knowledge comes from the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Greek history is about three thousand years. (break) ...During the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit's grandson. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the grandson of Yudhiṣṭhira, and Yudhiṣṭhira ruled over five thousand years ago. So the Yayāti... Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's grandson is Parīkṣit. His son is Janamejaya. And his son is Yayāti. And his son started Greek and Roman Empire. So therefore the Greek history is not more than three thousand years. Mahārāja Yayāti banished his two sons to the European quarters. Mleccha-yavana. Later on they became yavana, from Vedic culture deviated. This is the history.

Amogha: He sent them there for conquering?

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. He gave him, that "You take that place."

Amogha: Oh. "This is your kingdom."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every, all world was emperor, the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and the family. Sa-sāgara. Sa-sāgara means "including all the oceans." That means the whole world. There was one flag only during the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. And he first saw the cow-killing maybe in Africa or in Arabia. One black man was trying to kill a cow, and Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on tour, and immediately he punished him. That is Kali. The black man means Africa. Or where other place, black men?

Paramahaṁsa: Some of the, there are some natives in Asia also, southeast Asia, that are black.

Prabhupāda: Arabia? No. Arabians are not black.

Paramahaṁsa: Not... Generally they're not so black. Indonesians are black.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śrutakīrti: Africa is about the only place other than some islands.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Africa is black.

Amogha: Aborigines here also.

Paramahaṁsa: They have black natives here also, Australia.

Prabhupāda: They are all descendant of the same.

Amogha: Did the Greek civilization follow the Vedic culture?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They were worshipping demigods from the Vedas.

Paramahaṁsa: But they didn't have a very high standard.

Prabhupāda: These, these Vedic mantra, there is mention of so many demigods, how they were born. You do not know the meaning.

Paramahaṁsa: No, we are just chanting.

Prabhupāda: How, one after another, how one is born out of the... That is... How the brāhmaṇas were there, kṣatriyas were there--everything in Vedic... These Vedic mantra means the history of human society. And the origin is God, Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa. There are other mantras wherein it is stated, eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. "Only Nārāyaṇa was there." Neither Lord Śiva nor Brahmā. Later on, they came. When he first cites the mantra, vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam, śiva-viriïci-nutam. Śiva means Lord Śiva, and viriïci means Brahmā. All of them offer respect to Nārāyaṇa. Indian astrology was taken by the Arabians first. The one, two, three, four, five, six, these figures were taken from India, up to nine, then zero. Then you make all mathematical, arithmetical calculation.

Amogha: The Arabic numerals came from India?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all they took the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven...

Śrutakīrti: The Romans had a very complicated system.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) If you write 1975 it will become so big. (laughter)

Śrutakīrti: Yeah. Some twenty letters.

Prabhupāda: This "Sunday, Monday," means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday... That, we offer gāyatrī to the sun. So the moon is after the sun--this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they've never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position.

Paramahaṁsa: They can't just stop and say, "OK, now we..."

Prabhupāda: If they stop, then they are failure.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And then everyone will complain, "Oh, you wasted billions of dollars."

Prabhupāda: And if they go, then they will have the right information. But they will never be able to go.

Devotee (1): Just like Rāvaṇa could not reach the heavenly planets just by building the staircase.

Prabhupāda: That was his only demonic proposal, that "We make staircase." He said that "Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go."

Amogha: How high did he make it?

Prabhupāda: He never attempted. He simply bluffed, that's all. So demons' proposals are like that. Therefore it is a common say in, hearsay in the, in India, that rāvaṇe sarge sini(?): "The proposal is just like Rāvaṇa proposed to make a staircase to the heavenly planets." He was also very much advanced materially, very prosperous materially. Gold was very common thing. He brought gold from Brazil through the subway. His brother was king there, in southern America.

Amogha: Kumbhakarṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. Mahī, mahī means the earth. He used to go through the subway, through the earth. So other side there was another Rāvaṇa. That is Mahīrāvaṇa.

Devotee (1): He built the subway?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don't know where it goes, though.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Rāvaṇa's civilization, Rāmacandra's fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Tretā-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvāpara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Tretā-yuga, twelve lakhs of years.

Paramahaṁsa: About two millions years ago, Tretā-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why? Twenty lakhs, ah, two million, yes. Two millions of years ago the Rāvaṇa's civilization was there, and he was so prosperous. He had airplane. The zeplin, zeplin?

Amogha: Jet plane?

Prabhupāda: Not jet, zeplin.

Amogha: Oh, with the air and gas inside.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His son's name was Meghadūta. He was flying above the cloud. Therefore his name was Megha. Megha means cloud. They were so much advanced in civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: What kind of civilization was in South America at that time?

Prabhupāda: The same like. Therefore these Mexicans, South American, they resemble therefore almost Indian body.

Amogha: They also eat food... They eat a food similar to the cāpāṭi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Tortillas.

Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, in Middle East also they eat.

Devotee (1): Yes, in Lebanon.

Paramahaṁsa: In Tehran we saw those big cāpāṭis.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Six feet long.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so big. One cāpāṭi is sufficient for the whole family. They are sold in market, purchased.

Śrutakīrti: Very cheaply.

Paramahaṁsa: Only three or four cents apiece.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: They don't make much profit. That is the oriental culture. They make little profit; they are satisfied. Still in India you will find many hotel, very cheap, very cheap. Especially Mohammedan hotels. Still, by paying eight annas, you can get full meal.

Devotee (1): When Rāvaṇa was on the earth, was the whole earth populated, like Brazil and also the other parts of the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere population. This is a new theory of the rascals that there was no civilization before three thousand years. This is wrong theory. Everything was there.

Devotee (1): So when Mahārāja Yayāti banished his sons to those kingdoms, they were already populated there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Paramahaṁsa: They seem to be pretty much kṣatriya races.

Prabhupāda: And during Kurukṣetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party.

Amogha: Oh, from all over the world.

Prabhupāda: It was first-grade world war, Kurukṣetra. There is the one king, Śaibya, he came from Śibiya. Where is Śibiya?

Amogha: Siberia?

Prabhupāda: Śibiya.

Amogha: Oh, Śibiya? That's Africa.

Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were... All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to... It is a decision, who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that's all."

Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet.

Devotee (1): So they were not afraid of dying.

Prabhupāda: No, why? They knew. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. "I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body." It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, "No, no, I don't believe in the soul." (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still.

Devotee (1): And all Kṛṣṇa's soldiers were killed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: So Kṛṣṇa fought against His own soldiers also.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa did not fight.

Amogha: Oh, that's right.

Prabhupāda: He did not.

Amogha: But He led the fight.

Prabhupāda: He was chariot driver at the risk of being killed. The other party may kill the chariot driver to stop the progress of the enemy. They kill. They kill the horses, they kill the charioteer, then the person. So Kṛṣṇa took the risk of being killed. Bhīṣma attacked Him. He pierced His body with arrows.

Devotee (1): I think the tribes in South America, the Aztecs, they were also worshipers of the sun-god.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): They had very much gold. And the Spanish, they came and plundered the gold.

Prabhupāda: The aborigines here, they have got any religion?

Devotee (1): Where?

Prabhupāda: Here in Australia.

Devotee (1): Well, they mostly worship ghosts and spirits, I think. Trees.

Prabhupāda: Bhūtejyā.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So there is religion. Yānti bhūtāni bhūtejyā. What is this "UJV"?

Amogha: That is the license plate.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the... Generally, the city's name are there.

Devotee (1): Well, it usually has a U before the initials. I don't know why.

Amogha: Generally, they make them all--each one is a little bit different.

Devotee (1): Was Mahīrāvaṇa also a demon?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): What happened to him?

Prabhupāda: He was killed by Rāmacandra.

Amogha: He was called by his brother, wasn't he...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: ...to Ceylon in the battle?

Prabhupāda: No, he made a plan to kill Rāmacandra.

Amogha: Rāmacandra made a plan?

Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. And in that plan he was killed. (break) That is Indo-European civilization. The kings came from India, and he developed. Therefore it is called Indo-European civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: The scientists and the archaeologists are very amazed to find the structures, the buildings that they had in their civilization. They can't understand how they were built, such huge pillars and gigantic stones. They don't know how they were put into place.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the Jagannātha temple is also like that. They suggest that they manufacture, and then they surround with sand, then further manufacture. And when it is complete the sand is taken away. Otherwise how it is put into...? The sand is stacked just like this. The temple is being manufactured, and the sand is thrown all side, and when it is finished, the sand is taken away.

Devotee(1): The temple is manufactured in the sand?

Prabhupāda: No, as usual. Just like they dig well. They dig well. They begin immediately, and then you dig the earth, and the structure goes down. Then again, then again, like that. They were experts, they were experts, to construct... Labor is cheap. That time, practically there was no labor cost. At the present moment, on account of factories, the labor cost has increased. Otherwise the laborers, they were, they have no sufficient employment. So two annas, four annas. I was paying labor, four annas, say, in 1930s. Four annas. In Allahabad I was paying four annas. He would work whole day. In Bombay eight annas.

Devotee (1): They also have the big structures in Egypt, the pyramids.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Perhaps they used sand also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: The Greeks say that they built their buildings... They hired some very big men called cyclopses, big giants. And they came and built all the buildings.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And such stories are in Mahābhārata also. The demons were engaged, giants and demons, for construction. Yes. And they were very good artist, how to do it. Now we employ the first-class men, so-called first-class engineering, but they were meant for the demons and giants. Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, that explains how they built such fantastic temples and palaces.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Some people say, "Why don't we see any giants any more today?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Africa, there were many giants, very high, very strong.

Devotee (1):. Where is that?

Paramahaṁsa: In Africa some of the natives, very big, eight feet tall.

Prabhupāda: Very tall.

Devotee (1): In South America also, they used to have the Amazons, a big race.

                                                                                                                                                                        393160

Prabhupāda: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brāhmaṇas, that is advancement. This is not advancement because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that "I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death." They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose... We have got visa for two weeks?

Paramahaṁsa: Three weeks.

Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Now, if in Perth I begin one big skyscraper building and then after three weeks I am kicked out, then is that very good intelligence? I know that I shall remain here for three weeks, and if I begin one skyscraper building, and then, during the time of constructing or, say, after the construction is finished, I am kicked out, then where is that intelligence? Just like Napoleon. He wanted to construct that arch. You have not seen.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I have seen.

Prabhupāda: But he could not finish it. So this is his intelligence. Such a big man, Napoleon, that is his intelligence. And what to speak of others. Everyone knows that "I will have to die," and when death will come, nobody knows. At any moment it may come. So he will not be able to enjoy what he is doing, but still, he is doing. And his real business is forgotten. His real business is to stop his birth and death process and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is his real business. He does not know the real... Therefore they are called mūòhas. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ. So it is a civilization of the mūòhas, fourth-class men.

Devotee (1): Should the devotees think that "Any moment, I can die"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Why they will think? It is a fact. There is English proverb, "There is many dangers between the cups and the lips." You are going to drink tea. The distance is: here is cup and here is lip. There may be many dangers. So suppose in drinking tea there is some choking within the throat, and coughing, you may die immediately. You are so much under the control of nature. Little mistake will cause your death, little mistake. And conditioned life means we commit mistake, we are illusioned, we cheat, and our knowledge is imperfect. This is conditioned life.

Amogha: I telephoned that geographer yesterday to talk to him, and he said that "What Swamiji said was true, but how can...?" He said, "It will be very difficult to apply because most people, they are not interested." But he says it was very... He could understand that was true, what you were saying. He may also come again to talk more.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Let him come. People may take or not take, but he is inquisitive gentleman. Let him understand. People... We are preaching. Who is taking? Mass of people, they are not taking it. But still, we are doing that. That is our duty. People may take or not take, but a God's servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization. They want vox populi. What is that vox populi? Huh?

Devotee (1): Bauxite?

Prabhupāda: Vox populi. You know this word?

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, Latin.

Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?

But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization. During the lifetime of Christ, nobody accepted. When he was killed, or crucified, then the other saintly persons, they gave their experience, what they learned from Jesus Christ. Christ could not give any words. Some sporadic words were there, and the Bible was made on that basis. Actually, the Bible is not the word, directly words of Christ.

Amogha: That must be why it says... It says, "The Gospel according to John," "The Gospel according to Mark."

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Devotee (1): Even his disciples denounced him when they were going to crucify him. They said, "Oh, I do not know Jesus."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...they are after zeros. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sa..., śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitam means zero. (break) Advancement of civilization is zero. If you add many thousands of zero, does the value increases?

Amogha: No.

Prabhupāda: It remains zero.

Amogha: Big zero.

Prabhupāda: There must be one. Then it will increase the value. That one, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will make this material civilization hundred times important. And without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all zeros. (break) ...next life, supposing hypothetically I am going to be a dog, then what is this civilization? But that you cannot say, "No, I am not going to be dog," because you do not know. You are under the, completely under the grip of material nature. And there are cats and dogs. How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You will get another body. So how you can say that "No, I am not going to be a dog"? You cannot say; you are not independent. You cannot make your choice. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. By your work, it will be decided by higher authorities. Then how you can say, "No, no, I am not... There is no life, there is no..." It is all nonsense. Therefore without this knowledge, all this material opulence, it is all zero. It may be some fact for fifty or sixty years, but the world is not for fifty or sixty years, for millions and millions of years. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  May 17, 1975, Perth                                                               393404

Paramahaṁsa: Well he's a very..., actually he's a big man and therefore he's very busy. In their terms he's a big man. He had a lot of seminars yesterday taking him up late at night working. I'll send him something to read. (break) ...problem. As he sees it, the biggest problem is that the industrial civilization, the big companies and consumer society, are taking the natural resources at such a pace that they are causing pollution and they are causing in the future a great scarcity of certain products, and, in other words, he thinks they're ruining the earth.

Śrutakīrti: He said, "irreparable damage." They'll never be able to again restore what they've taken.

Paramahaṁsa: So he's very perplexed by the future, say, a hundred years from now, what will happen if we go on at the rate we're going, taking natural resources.

Prabhupāda: Just like they are taking petrol. This is natural resources. They are taking continually.

Paramahaṁsa: But he says the CSIRO, most of the people there are involved in researching how to exploit the natural resources more. So he's a little bit different because he's trying to present a clear warning that this is happening. But then again he doesn't have any potency to stop it. It seemed that when you were speaking to him he related bodily consciousness with the selfishness of the industrialists when they're exploiting natural resources like that.

Prabhupāda: They are doing so many things. They are killing cows for their own benefit. So many animals they are killing. Birds.

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, he was making a claim that he was against this because all these cows are in the central part of Australia and just by their walking they're causing the topsoil to become loosened and taken by the wind. So he was against all this mass slaughtering. But at the same time, he's eating meat. Also he was saying how everyone is interested in making the fast dollar, the... (break)

Paramahaṁsa: The industrialists and technologists say that they will keep using and using and using, and when they run out they will invent something else to take the place. When they run out of oil then they will use sun energy or some other energy. And whenever they say that they're running out of something, they say, "Oh, we'll invent something, and we'll do something to arrange it."

Prabhupāda: Why they are thinking of the future? And they do not think of themself that whether he was going to be a cat and dog. He is thinking of industrial resources future and not for himself.

Śrutakīrti: It shows that it's a natural tendency to think about the future.

Prabhupāda: Is there, certainly.

Śrutakīrti: Yes. But because they are in ignorance they have to think of so many other things for the future, and they're not thinking of themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, no, in future if you become a shrub like this, what you are going to do for that? This may be also your future. Now there are so many hells for different kinds of sinful activities. Everything is described.

Paramahaṁsa: I was reading in the Bhagavad-gītā last night. In Chapter Two there was a verse where it says, " Of the...," something about "Of the existent, there is no cessation, and the nonexistent, there is no continuation," something like that. But in the purport it says that one can understand the Supreme by studying himself. What does that mean? By analytical study of oneself one can understand the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: So you could not understand? You have got all propensities, different, the similar propensities are there in God. Because you are part and parcel of God, the chemical composition in drop of water from the sea is the same. In the sea it is in bigger quantity, and in the drop in smaller quantity. And therefore your composition you can study, and the same things are there. Therefore He is a person. He is person.

Śrutakīrti: That is sāìkhya-yoga?

Prabhupāda: No. This is my interpretation. He is also creating; you are also creating. You can create a motorcar and He can create a huge, gigantic sun globe. The same process. As you are controlling the aeroplane by air condition or by controlling the air, similarly all these planets are there. It is by His plan it is moving with the air. Big, big planets, there is no question of gravitation. That is nonsense. It is by His arrangement it is moving in the air. Just like big, big cloud containing millions of tons of water floating in the air. How it is being done? Eh? Millions of tons of water are floating in the air. That we see daily. So similarly, all these planets are floating by His arrangement. Not only floating. Making center that polestar, all the planets are moving around it, even the sun. So it is by His arrangement.

Śrutakīrti: So the sun is the center or the polestar?

Prabhupāda: Polestar.

Śrutakīrti: Is the center of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Not in the center. Sun is in the center, the polestar in the extreme north. (break)

Śrutakīrti: You were saying yesterday how foolish it is to think that God is creating planets without putting any life on them. The scientists are saying there is no life on any planet. Then why would He create a planet unless there was life on it?

Prabhupāda: All rubbish theory. Life is mentioned Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-gaḥ: "everywhere." And why these rascals say there is no life?

Paramahaṁsa: They want to see with telescope.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, this telescope. That is their defect. They do not admit the imperfection of the senses. What we calculated? How many billions?

Śrutakīrti: To the sun?

Prabhupāda: No, no, the length and breadth.

Śrutakīrti: Oh, it is four billion miles.

Prabhupāda: Four billion miles. So how much the telescope can see? Can you see four billion miles? Eh? Where is the telescope? If you cannot see perfectly even ten miles, with telescope you can see, say, a hundred miles or something more, something, but can you see four billion miles?

Śrutakīrti: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years.

Śrutakīrti: He's thinking that in a few hundred years the resources will be used up. He doesn't... He's thinking the resources will be used up.

Prabhupāda: But before that, you will be finished, so why you are anxious?

Paramahaṁsa: He's worrying about the civilization.

Prabhupāda: Civilization, but you will be finished. You will not take part in the civilization. You have no belief in the next birth. So why you are thinking like that? You will be finished, that's all. Why you are worried? Suppose I have come here for three weeks. If I simply think, "What will happen hundred years after I am in Australia?" What is my business? I will go away by three weeks. Why shall I bring so much thoughts about "What will happen, Australia, hundred years after"? You are going to be cats and dogs or something, or grass or anything else. But you will be finished. Then why you are anxious for Australia?

Paramahaṁsa: This is my country.

Prabhupāda: What is your country? You will be kicked out after some years, that's all. Where is your country? You cannot stay in your country. First of all you make sure that it is country. Where is your country? I have come here for three weeks. Shall I consider it is my country?

Paramahaṁsa: Your country is India; our country is Australia.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere, I come here for three weeks or some three years or some three hundred years. What are these in comparison to the eternal time? So why I am thinking like that, "my country, your country, this country"? Everyone will be kicked out: "Get out." You country will stay here permanently. This is called fourth-class man.

Śrutakīrti: It is like that woman you speak about. She goes into the marketplace: "How will I feed all these men?" (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Only she is anxious: "Oh, so many men. Where shall I keep them? Where shall I give them food?" And in the evening her son brought him (her)--everything is finished. Everything is finished by the evening. Nobody in the market. And she was very much anxious "How to feed them? How to keep them?" It is like that.

Paramahaṁsa: But even if we can't stay here, we all have to die, our sons and their sons, if we do something now, then maybe they won't have to suffer so much in the future.

Prabhupāda: So why you are thinking of your son's future, your grandson's... Why don't you think of your future?

Paramahaṁsa: It makes me happy to think that they'll be happy.

Prabhupāda: That is madness. That is madness.

Paramahaṁsa: If I get insurance policy then they will have some money after I go...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is natural, that you think of future. But the foolishness is you don't think of your future. That is foolishness. This is natural. Because every living entity is eternal, therefore he has future. But for himself he is thinking, "There is no life, next." And he is thinking of the life which will come as his grandson or son, what will be their future. And he is blind about the own future. This is fourth-class man. Suppose some danger is coming. So shall I take care of you: "How you will be saved? How you will be saved?" How I will be saved--that is my first business. That he does not know. There have been many cases. There is all of a sudden fire. The man has left everything, and his baby was there. He was crying, "Oh, I have left my..." The natural tendency--"First of all save me." Self preservation is the first law of nature. So why did he forget about his baby? Now, when he comes out, he is thinking about baby. This is natural, that he does not think about himself; he is thinking about future generation.

"What nonsense will come as my son or grandson?" Just see. This is fourth-class man.

Amogha: So he should first save himself, then think about how to save others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all he must know what will actually saving. That he does not know. He is thinking of his country. Suppose next birth he becomes a cow and his countrymen will send him to the slaughterhouse. So what is the use of having your country? The same country, the national... The cow is also national, you are also national, but the law is the cow is to be sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they have been all described as mūòhāḥ, rascals, only rascals. Except a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, all persons are rascals. Do you admit or not?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is authoritative statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. So these classes of men do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he comes within these categories. This is a plain description if we believe in Bhagavad-gītā. All rascals.

Paramahaṁsa: But he would say, "There are many people also like me who... We don't harm anybody. We just live our own life, and..."

Prabhupāda: But you harm yourself. Because you are a rascal you do not know what is your future. You do not harm others, but you are harming yourself. You do not know what you are and how you are harming yourself. You are such a rascal. You pose to be that you do not make any harm to anyone, but you are doing harm to yourself. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. You do not know what is the harm to yourself. You are such a fool. So what is the use of...? Nobody can do any harm to anyone. Everything is going on nature's law. But you are doing yourself harm for your interest. You are such a fool.

Paramahaṁsa: But I feel pretty happy. Everything seems to be... I have a good job.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, the ass also feels happy, dog also feels happy, so you are like ass, dog, like that. They also feel happy.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't go to cinema.

Prabhupāda: This is not... There are many living entities in the cinema. There are ants, the lizards, rats. So what is the use of being in cinema? So you are also one of them, that's all. There are no rats in the cinema house? (laughter)

Amogha: At the drive-ins they also have birds.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: But man has been progressing for so many years. Surely they can't all be bad.

Prabhupāda:They are not progressing. They are rascals. What their meaning of progressing, these fourth-class men? That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. What progress? If you have made progress, then you are thinking, "What will happen, future?" Where is your progress? You rest assured that "We have made so much progress. Now there will be no more problem." So why you have engaged so many so-called rascals again to solve the problems? Where is your advancement? If you are full of anxiety, then where is your happiness? Is anyone who is full of anxiety he is happy? Is he happy?

Paramahamsa: Well, not... But if he takes some intoxicant or he goes to cinema, then he feels better.

Prabhupāda: You are adding rascal upon rascal. (laughs) They do not know. They are fools. They are rascals. The same philosophy: if you have got enemy in the front you close your eyes and he kills you. The rabbit, they do that. As soon as they find some big animal, they close.

Amogha: Ostriches stick their head in a hole in the ground.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: But there must be some progress because so many are joining the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: They are making real advancement. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Their these material anxieties will be over. They are making advancement. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa their dirty heart will be cleansed, and as soon as it is fully cleansed, the problems of material existence will be over. No more anxiety.

Paramahaṁsa: They seem happy, but... The devotees of Kṛṣṇa seem happy, but they don't do much practical work. They always sing and dance and ask for some money. But they don't work any practical thing. We're doing so many practical things.

Prabhupāda: Dancing is not working? And writing book is not working? Selling book is not working? What is working then? Hm? Like monkey jumping? Yes? That is working?

Amogha: But we are helping people practically like in the hospital or the alcoholics...

Prabhupāda: No, what... How you are helping? Do you think if one goes to hospital he will not die? And how you are helping? You are thinking you are helping.

Amogha: But he lives longer.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. How long you will live? When the time of death comes, you will not live longer even by a moment. When a man is going to die, his life is finished. Can your injection, medicine, give one minute's life more? Is there any medicine?

Amogha: Well, there seems to be.

Prabhupāda: No...

Amogha: Sometimes when they give medicine they live longer.

Paramahaṁsa: They say that by perfecting heart transplant they may make people live...

Prabhupāda: They may say, they... Because we take them as rascals, why shall I take their words? We should consider them a rascals, that's all. (someone shouts nastily in background--Prabhupāda barks at them) (laughter) Another rascal. He is enjoying life. So the world is full of rascals. We must be very much pessimistic, not at all optimistic of this world. Unless you become pessimistic, you will not be able to go back to home. If you have little attraction for this world--"It is good"--then you have to remain here. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is so strict.

Paramahaṁsa: But Jesus said: "Love thy brother as thyself." So if we love our brother...

Prabhupāda: That we are loving. We are giving Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is loving, real loving. We are giving him eternal life, eternal bliss. Unless we love them, why we are taking so much trouble? The preacher must love the people. Otherwise why he is taking? He can do it for himself at home. Why he is taking so much trouble? Why in eighty years old I have come here if I do not love? So who can love better than a preacher? He loves even the animals. Therefore they are preaching, "Don't take meat." Do they love the animals, rascals? They are eating, and they love their country, that's all. Nobody loves. It is simply sense gratification. If somebody loves, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. All rascals. They are after their own sense gratification, and they will put a signboard, "I love everyone." This is their business. And fools are accepting, "Oh, this man is very philanthropic." He does not love any man. He loves only senses. That's all. The servant of the senses, that's all.

Everyone is working because he is getting money. Where is the love? The minister, the prime minister, everyone, if they say, "No money, no salary," nobody will go. He takes the opportunity of taking money by bribe, by this way. Therefore they are: "I love your country. Elect me as president." That's all. What this president has done, Nixon? He has stolen so many things. So what is his love for the country?

Amogha: He was a bad one, but some of them are good.

Prabhupāda: No, no, some... Everyone is bad. The man who is talking, he is also bad man. Everyone is bad man. Here there is no good man. Do you think in the prison house any good men go there? All criminals. So anyone who has come in this material world, he is a criminal. Therefore he is punished by this material body, simply suffering. Why you have covered? Because this body cannot tolerate this cold. So the body means suffering, material body. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody is enjoying. (It) is a wrong idea. He is thinking... That is called māyā. He is suffering, but he is thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called māyā.

Paramahaṁsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so...

Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher--enemies. They do not know the art.

What they will do? Suppose if you have got a very good father. If he does not know how to stop your gliding down to accept a dog's life, then what does he do simply by giving some food? And making a fatty dog?

Amogha: But if what you say is true, why don't more people know about it? There are so many teachers. There are spiritual teachers and...

Prabhupāda: They will not know. That... These rascals say, "No, it will not be accepted." Just like yesterday they came, all the psychiatrists. As soon as we prescribed that "This is the prescription," they said, "Oh, it is impractical." I say that "Send your patients here. We shall make him instantly drugless." They will not accept it. "Oh, why not at home?" At home? And he will remain with the drug addict, and he will become drugless. Is it possible? The surrounding men, all drug addicts, and he will become drugless. How it is possible?

Amogha: Actually their hospital is a society where all the drug addicts get together.

Devotee (2): For a free cup of tea.

Prabhupāda: Good society. The group... We gave reference from Bhagavad-gītā, saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ. Association is required. Otherwise why we are opening so many centers? Just to give them the facility of association. These men are big rascals. The world is full of rascals, and the so-called leaders, they are big rascals, that's all. They cannot make any solution. Simply take salary. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are big rascals, and the small rascals accept them as leader. That's all.

Amogha: That is vox populi of the rascals.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The whole world is rascal. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. Take it for granted. This is the test. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals, they do not know what is his self-interest. He is simply enamored by the external energy and trying to make adjustment of things. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... He is a rascal, and his leader is also rascal. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These rascals do not know they are bound up, hands and legs, by the laws of nature, and they are making solution, problem. Just like this geographer is making solution and all of a sudden will die. And then another rascal will come into that place to make solution. The problem will remain, and they will come and go. They will come and go. Napoleon came for solution, Hitler came for solution, Gandhi came for solution, but when Napoleon was offered a horse's urine instead of water, he could not make any solution.

When Gandhi was fired to death, he could not make a solution. And they were leaders for solution. What they can do? Every one of them is under strict laws of nature. As nature will do, they will have to submit. And what they will make? They are not independent. Nobody knows where is Hitler. Such a big man, he hid or he killed himself, something done, but nobody knows. And one day he become the master of the whole universe. This is going on.

Amogha: But maybe by our study... We are all imperfect, but if we keep compiling the information, then after so many years they will have all the information...

Prabhupāda: They... You do not take the right information. Right information is with us. That you refuse to take. Your information is zero. Compiling of zeros does not make any value. It is all zero. Take information from us. Then it will be beneficial. You are taking information from all universe except our this solid information given by Kṛṣṇa. That is your policy. Mūòho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. You have read this verse? "The mūòha, rascal, he does not know the ultimate background is I am." That he does not know. What is the use of his information? And in the Vedas it is said yam eva viditvā sarvam idam... There is a mantra, that "Only understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything." Yam eva viditvā sarvam idaṁ vedituṁ bhavanti.

Amogha: But how can we understand all this science and technology just by understanding Kṛṣṇa, just by one book?

Prabhupāda: Not one book. You cannot read them throughout your whole life, there are so many books.

Amogha: I don't think they have any argument.

Prabhupāda: What argument? They are fools, rascals. What argument?

Amogha: Yesterday they did not know what to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody could say against me. Maunaṁ śamyati labdhaḥ.(?) If they remain silent, that means they have accepted. I charge you that "You are thief," and if you don't protest, then you are thief. If you are not thief, immediately you will: "How you say? Why you have said?" There will be fight. But if you remains silent, that proves that you are thief. So they could not give us any counterargument. Therefore they accepted.

Amogha: Their biggest problem is that there isn't any counterargument.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as I told them, "Who is there without father?"

Amogha: Then they tried a little bit. They said, "Everyone has a father, so who's God's father?"

Prabhupāda: That I answered, that "That is God."

Amogha: Then they were defeated.

Prabhupāda: God means that without father, He can, He will exist. That is God. That is the difference between you and God.

Amogha: How can darkness argue with the sunlight? Their trying to argue is just like darkness trying to argue with the sunlight.

Prabhupāda: And that Burmese said, "We don't believe in God." And you don't believe in God. You don't... Why you believe Lord Buddha? He is God.

Amogha: Then he said, "But there is no God mentioned in Buddhism. There is nirvāṇa."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you worship Buddha. Why?

Amogha: Because he spoke about nirvāṇa. In Burma many people are Buddhist. They say they are Buddhist.

Prabhupāda: Till now, 2,600 years past from the Buddhist community, from other groups and Arabia, very big religionist or philosophers has come. They are all in darkness. It was for the time being. The Buddhist religion was for the time. Atheist class.

 

Room Conversation                                      May 19, 1975, Melbourne                                                          394191

Journalist: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness connected with any other religion? Does it derive from Hinduism or Buddhism?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can call it Hinduism, but actually it does not belong to any "ism." It is a science of understanding God. But it appears like Hindu religion. In that sense Buddha religion is also Hindu religion, because Lord Buddha was a Hindu and he started Buddha religion.

Journalist: Do you think modern man must mend his ways or he will... he must get better and know God or he will destroy himself?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is destroying already. The society is not in stable stage. Just like in America, they are also in trouble now. They are asking money from the federal government. They cannot make solution. So as soon as the monetary source will decline, this civilization will be finished.

Journalist: As soon as the money declines.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there is no culture. They are not standing on culture. They are standing on money.

Journalist: You think we pay too much importance to money?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everybody, yes. They do not know what is culture of life. They simply want money, that's all.

Journalist: Do you think we have too much for our needs?

Prabhupāda: You are creating your needs. You are not too much in need, but you have created so many artificial needs.

Journalist: Such as what?

Prabhupāda: Everything. Suppose this boy is sitting down. Now I am sitting in a very nice couch. So it is not absolutely necessary that couch is required. But for getting this couch, we had to spend so much energy. So similarly, unnecessarily we have created so many things and going on. That I was going to say, that we come to the human form of life by nature's way. Now what is our duty? Our duty is to make further progress. But instead of going further progressively we are again going to become monkeys and dogs. This is our position.

Journalist: What about other artifacts of civilization like television and motorcars...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good, just like we also use motorcar, but not for fashion. Suppose if we go for preaching. If we can go by car quickly, we take advantage of the car. We have got many cars for preaching work. So everything is good, provided it is used for progressive goodness. (coughs) That our mistake is that when... Now listen, there is the mistake in Darwin's theory also. He has no information that the evolution is taking place, of the body, by the desire of the soul. That he does not know. Just like sometimes people were happy and living in a small cottage. Now they are making big, big skyscraper building. So what is the difference? The cottage and this... The cottage is not becoming the skyscraper building but the man who was living in the cottage, by his desire the skyscraper building is coming. Similarly the evolution means the soul within the body desires a certain type of body and he gets it. Not that the monkey body has developed into human body.

But the soul within the monkey's body desired a human body, and he has got it. This is the process of evolution. The Darwin's theory, this knowledge is lacking. If he is thinking that the cottage has become big skyscraper building, that is not the fact. The owner of the cottage desired to have a skyscraper building, therefore he, from the cottage he transferred to the skyscraper building. It is due to the owners.

Journalist: In that case, if we go on developing, we stay in the skyscraper, or the skyscraper gets bigger.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The skyscraper is not impediment, it is not impediment. If you remain in the skyscraper and develop your spiritual consciousness, you can do that. But the unfortunate thing is that we are too much absorbed in constructing the skyscraper building, forgetting our real business. That is the defect.

Journalist: What about sex and drugs, sex and alcohol.

Prabhupāda: Sex, yes, alcohol, we condemn any kind of intoxication, all our students are forbidden illicit sex. We don't say, "No sex," but "illicit sex," we forbid. Similarly we forbid meat-eating. We don't say that "Don't eat," we simply say that "don't eat meat." You can eat other things, just like we are eating so many nice things.

Journalist: Why not meat?

Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful, you are killing all animals. Your Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing?

Journalist: Yes. How many followers do you have throughout the world now?

Prabhupāda: No, throughout the world, in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. In the outside India we have got about ten to twelve thousand dedicated followers.

 

Morning Walk                                             May 20, 1975, Melbourne                                                           394323

Prabhupāda: No, if you are strong, then māyā will not be able to overpower you. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who is fully surrendered to God, māyā cannot touch him.

Devotee (4): How does one become strong?

Prabhupāda: That we have given. Be strict in following the regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Devotee (4): Just the four regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: Yes, no illicit sex, no... This is the method, and chanting is the process. Then you will remain strong. And if you neglect, then you become weak. To remain strong is not difficult, but we don't want to remain strong. That is our decision. Otherwise it is not difficult. But we don't want to remain strong. We voluntarily become weak. Then māyā catches, "Come on."

Devotee (2): Is it necessary to see the Deity regularly in order to remain strong?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything necessary as we have prescribed. If you think that it is not necessary, unnecessary, then you under the māyā. Why do you take that, "Is it necessary?" That means you are not strong enough. You cannot follow; therefore you say, "Is it necessary?" You are considering. That means you are becoming prey to māyā. As soon as you ask this, that means you have already fallen a victim of māyā.

Devotee (1): Kṛṣṇa says "without doubting."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So how to get those people who are immersed in māyā to become serious? When we go out and we preach our saìkīrtana movement, how to get...

Prabhupāda: They will become gradually. Not all of a sudden. They are purchasing one book. They will read, and gradually they will be elevated. You go to school, but all of a sudden, you cannot say that "I am M.A." You have to wait. That is called dhairya, utsāhād dhairyāt. One should be very enthusiastic, at the same time, patient. If you think that "I am very enthusiastic; still, I am not getting the result," be patient. Niścayāt. Be sure the result will come, but be patient. These are the ways. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. You should be honest. You are not following, and still, you say "I am devotee." That means you are not honest. Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saìge, and in the association of devotees. ṣaòbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. By following these six principles, you advance. This is the Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction.

Devotee (1): Sādhana means accepting discipline.

Prabhupāda: Eh, yes. Do you think that solving the problem of birth, death and old age and disease is very easy task? (chuckles) You have to very, very strongly... Those who do not care, that is another thing. They are under these laws, going on. Life after life, they are changing body, again birth, again death, again in the womb of mother. They do not take it seriously, how risky life is that. They do not take it. "Oh, what is that?" Now, in Kali-yuga, the mother is killing the child. Even within the womb of mother is not safe. This is going on. So they do not take that how this way of life is risky and uncomfortable. They do not take it seriously. To enter again into the womb of mother, how difficult job and troublesome it is, they do not understand it. For want of education.

Hari-śauri: So those persons who do not take even their material predicament seriously, then it is the same when they approach, they see our devotees. They do not take us seriously.

Prabhupāda: No, they are given chance. Even they fall down, they guaranteed best life in the next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe, to take birth in devotee's or nice brāhmaṇa's house. So they get again chance. So our point should be why another chance? Finish this business in this life. That is determination. Why another chance? I may be misled again. That should be our determination. "Finish this business, this life. One life let me be strict in following the discipline and regulative principles." This is called tapasya, that "Although it is inconvenient, I must do it to solve my problems." That is determination, dṛòha-vrata, firm determination.

Devotee (5): They have to come to the temple to be trained up?

Prabhupāda: Temple or no temple, you must be firmly determined. You can have God realization under this tree if you have got firm determination. Anywhere you can stay. But temple is the ordinary way, facility. If you are so, I mean to say, elevated, you may not come to temple, but ordinarily, for the neophytes, they must come to the temple. Why he does not come? Does he think that he has become very elevated? That is false. Haridāsa Öhākura, he was not going to the Jagannātha temple, but Jagannātha was coming to him. So if you are so strong like Haridāsa Öhākura, that is another thing. But if you falsely think or imitate Haridāsa Öhākura, then you go to hell. That's all. We should not falsely think that "Now I am advanced and elevated. I can do whatever I like." That is not our...

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Brahmā created something called self-deception. Would self-deception mean that if I think I am forced to fall down, but actually I wanted to fall down, but I think, "Oh, I am forced"? Is that self-deception?

Prabhupāda: Force? Force means if you violate the rules, then you are forced. If you contaminate some disease, then you are forced to suffer from the disease. If you don't contaminate, then you remain safe.

Hari-śauri: But one must come to that point of being serious to recognize the problems of life? Before one can understand your books, the karmī must become serious to understand that he is in misery and that he must get out?

Prabhupāda: So without understanding, you were initiated? Do you think? Why you were initiated if you did not understand the seriousness? Why do you take initiation? That means cheating. You do not understand; still, you show that "I am now understanding." (break)

Hari-śauri: It seems to be very difficult if they are not very serious about anything...

Prabhupāda: No, that is missionary activities, that they do not understand, but you have to make them understand. They are not calling you, "I am suffering. Please come," but it is your business to go and let them know that "You are suffering. You take this method." That is the way of becoming very quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if you think, "They are not understanding, what is the use of going there? Let me sleep," that is not good. They are not understanding; still, you have to go. Then Kṛṣṇa will take that "He is laboring so hard for My sake." Never mind he is successful. It doesn't matter. But you are working hard for Kṛṣṇa. That is noted down. So our business is to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Whether one man is converted or not converted, that is not our business. We shall try our best. But Kṛṣṇa must see that I am giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is wanted. Not that you have to judge that you have approached so many men; nobody became Kṛṣṇa conscious.

That doesn't matter. But you have gone there. You have endeavored your sincere effort. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: "Whomever you meet, you give him, you inform him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that "You see that he has actually become Kṛṣṇa conscious." Never says. You simply say and go and say. That is your business. It is not that you have to see that he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy. It will take, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, after many, many births. But you have to do your duty. Go and preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. Your duty is finished. Of course, you will try to convert him. If he is not converted, that is not deviation of your duty. You have to simply go and speak. Just like when I came to your country, I never expected any success because I knew, "As soon as I will say, 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating,' they will reject me immediately."

(laughter) So I was not hopeful at all.

Devotee (1): They are so attached.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is your kindness that you accepted me. But I never expected. I never expected that "These people will accept." I never expected.

Hari-śauri: So simply if we rely on Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our only business.

Hari-śauri: And if we look for results, then...

Prabhupāda: And we should do our duty as prescribed by the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya. Then both sides, you will be favored, from the spiritual master and from Kṛṣṇa. And that is the success. My Guru Mahārāja was publishing one paper, Dayinika (?) Nadiya Prakash. It was worth two paisa or one paisa. So if a brahmacārī could sell a few copies, he would have been so glad. You see? The collection was not even four annas. Still, he was so glad that "Oh, you have distributed so much." Our business is to carry out the order, not to see success. Success is not so easy. That is not so easy.

Hari-śauri: Is this the reason why others who have preceded yourself earlier on, is this the reason why they were not successful, because they were trying to judge the results?

Prabhupāda: Who?

Hari-śauri: Others who have come before yourself? When they tried to preach in the Western countries?

Prabhupāda: They did not try. They came officially, and that's all. Not even tried to preach this.

Devotee (1):. Just like Arjuna on the battlefield, you simply had to try for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: "Yes, I shall carry out Your order, nothing else. Yes, You are asking me to fight. I will fight. That's all."

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one goes to the temple, if one attends the temple regularly and inquires from the devotees about the devotional principles, and because of some reason, it's not necessarily... it's not convenient for him to live in the temple at that time, and he is living with people...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you live in temple or without temple, if you follow the instruction, that is wanted. If you live without temple and chant sixteen rounds and observe the regulative principle, that's all right. It doesn't require that you should live in the temple. And if you live in the temple and do all nonsense, then what is the use of living in the temple?

Devotee: Is it wrong to think of initiation then? Or initiated also? (?)

Prabhupāda: Their "thinking" means they are not fixed up. That very word suggest that they are not fixed up. Oh, initiation can take place anywhere.

Śrutakīrti: He's saying those that are initiated, must they live in the temple? He's making the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, must follow the regulative principle, not that must live in temple.

Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one use marriage to reach back home, go back to Godhead? How can one use the sacrifice of marriage...

Prabhupāda: Marriage done, that... (?) Yes, marriage must be done in the temple. What is this sound? (break) This lake is being filled up or...?

Devotee (1): ...construction.

Devotee (2): They're remodelling the garden, expanding the lake

Prabhupāda: Oh. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                       May 20, 1975, Melbourne                                                         394370

Prabhupāda: ...Mahārāja and his father, Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. They wanted to preach. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also wanted to preach. (break) ...book to many Western universities. MacGill University. He had a very strong desire to preach. Then he attempted little. Then his son, my Guru Mahārāja, he was entrusted. He also attempted. He sent his disciple to London. And he wanted me also. Therefore at the last stage of my life, at the age of seventy years (chuckles) I made an attempt that... Our predecessors, they wanted, and they wanted me also to do that. So my other Godbrothers they could not do very well. So let me try.

394483

Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who have no chance to become first-class men, their vote, what is the value?

Dr. Copeland: Ācchā. When you were coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: According to our Vedic civilization, first-class men's vote required, who knows things as they are. One who does not know things as they are, what is the use of taking vote from him? Our Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas, first-class men... The qualification of brāhmaṇa, find out. Śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣā ārjavam, jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma... Read.

Paramahaṁsa:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class man.

Dr. Copeland: I'm not a first-class man.

Prabhupāda: No, that I do not know, but if you have got these qualities... We have to judge by the qualities, not by birth. But since India accepted a brāhmaṇa by birth without these qualities, India's civilization fell down.

Dr. Copeland: Ah, that's why. Ah! Pretty! Are you a brāhmaṇa? By birth you're a brāhmaṇa, right?

Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else--that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa--then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyaïjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet. "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.

This is brāhmaṇa. We do not serve anyone, any merchant, officer, any... No. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If Kṛṣṇa wants, He will give us food, or we shall starve. We are not going to serve. This is the proof. We are spending not less than twenty lakhs of rupees for maintaining our establishment throughout the whole world, but we do not know what is our next moment's income. We do not know... We have eaten today. We do not know whether we shall have any eatable next day. This is our position. If it is available, we shall eat; otherwise we shall starve. This is our position. Still, I don't seek any employment, "Give us some service to maintain our..." No, we don't do that. We never do that. When I was alone, I was not doing that. I was living alone. I had no income, no friend, no shelter. Since I left my home, since 1954, I never cared for anyone maintaining me. And there was no resource, fixed income, nothing of the sort. I depended on Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, in the whole society we are feeding daily ten thousand men.

We have got about hundred centers. And we are maintained in Eu..., just like European, American standard, not vagabond standard. But still, we have no fixed income. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. If He wants, He will give us food; if He wants, we shall starve. This is brāhmaṇa, practical. And "Now I have got all degrees, and unless I get a good master, then I am street dog." (Dr. Copeland laughs) That is śūdra. Without getting a master... Just like a street dog has no value unless he gets a good master. Then he can bark (Prabhupāda barks), "Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! I have got my master." And if he doesn't get a master, nobody cares for it, and he is lean and thin, here going, here going, that's all. This is śūdra. He has no power to live independently. That is śūdra.

Dr. Copeland: And you're training them to lead?

Prabhupāda: Yes, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will supply everything. Be confident. This is brāhmaṇa. We don't depend. You see for the last ten years our institution going on. We don't depend on anyone else. If you contribute voluntarily, welcome, but we are not dependent on you. This is brahminical class of man. We don't... Find this: śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam. What are they? Śamaḥ?

Paramahaṁsa: Śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca. You want me to read each word, translate?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Śamaḥ--peacefulness; damaḥ--self-control; tapaḥ--austerity; śaucam--purity; kṣāntiḥ--tolerance; ārjavam--honesty..."

Prabhupāda: Simplicity, honesty. Ārjavam means even an enemy enquires from me, "What is your secret?" I shall say, "Yes, it is... I have no secret. This is my position." This is called ārjavam. Don't keep any secret. So ārjavam, then?

Paramahaṁsa: "Jïānam--wisdom."

Prabhupāda: Yes, full knowledge.

Paramahaṁsa: "Vijïānam--..."

Prabhupāda: Vijïānam means practical application. If one believes God, Kṛṣṇa, and if he believes that Kṛṣṇa is giving food to everyone, even to the elephant and to the ant, then why shall I bother for my food? He must give me. If He is supplying food in the jungle, so many animals, and the elephant eats at a time forty k.g. foodstuff, and the ant within the hole of your room, he is also there. The lizard is there, the rat is there, the snake(?) is there. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to everyone. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He is supplying the necessities of life to everyone. So what I have done that He will not give me food? And I am engaged my life for His service. If I have no such confidence, then where is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Why shall I flatter others for my food? So this is brāhmaṇa's... "I must have full confidence in Kṛṣṇa. And God is so able, so competent, that He can feed millions and trillions and unlimited number of living entities, and I have dedicated my life for Kṛṣṇa's service, and I will starve?

Kṛṣṇa will not look after me?" Is that faith?

Dr. Copeland: Not by your measure.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: He says not by your measure. In your terms that is not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, actually, that is the fact. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Find out. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān.

Madhudviṣa: First volume?

Prabhupāda: Yes, find out the verse from the yellow... Yes. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān. The verse begins: cirāṇi kiṁ na santi diśanti.

Madhudviṣa: "C."

Prabhupāda: Cirāṇi kiṁ na pathi santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ naivāìghripāḥ para-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan, ruddhā guhāḥ kim...

Madhudviṣa: Cīra-vāsā?

Prabhupāda: No, cirāṇi. Cirāṇi kiṁ na santi.

Madhudviṣa: It is "C"? It begins with "Ci"?

Prabhupāda: Yes, "c-h-i," or "c-i." Then it must be in the second part, Second Canto. Find out the Second Canto. If one reads Bhāgavatam thoroughly...

Madhudviṣa: Cirāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi?

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. Vidyā-bhāgavatāvadhiḥ. Then his education is finalized. Vidyāvadhiḥ, vidyā avadhiḥ. The limit of education is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Find out.

Madhudviṣa:

cirāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ

naivāìghripāḥ para-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan

ruddhā guhāḥ kim ajito 'vati nopasannān

kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān

"Translation: Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or, above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls? Why then do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth?"

Prabhupāda: That... Saintly person should depend on Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is not supplying cloth, all right, find out some torn, thrown-out cloth on the street. And food? Go to the tree. Take some fruit. And for water, go to the river. There is sufficient water. And for shelter, go to the cave. So these are already arranged. And above, over and above, do you think that the Supreme Lord does not take care of the person who has fully surrendered unto Him? Then why you are going to flatter this rich class of men for your food? This is the... And that is the... Especially throughout the history in India you will find, many hundred thousands of these sādhus. They do not go anywhere. I have seen at Allahabad, Kumbha-melā. They take bath in the Ganges and sit down in their place, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, without caring wherefrom the food will come. They sit down. And everything is coming. Still in India, if there is information, even in the remotest villages, "There is a saintly person has come in the village," they will approach.

"Bābā, what can I do for you?"

Dr. Copeland: Have you done that? Have you wandered around from village to village?

Prabhupāda: Not village to village, but town to town. Even in foreign countries.

Room Conversation with

 

Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare                        May 21, 1975, Melbourne                      394926

Prabhupāda: ...defect of the Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother, they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is the defect.

Director: Happens, yes.

Prabhupāda: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmānanda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.

Director: That's cases we deal with. Adoption, and...

Prabhupāda: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause.

Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇòita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.

Otherwise the society was divided into four classes--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.

Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us.

Prabhupāda: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman.

A drunkard was never respected. Similarly meat-eaters. He was considered third-class man. In our childhood we have seen when people learned to eat meat, very secretly, not within the house. Outside the house with some Mohammedan cooker. It was considered very abominable to eat meat, to drink. And women, they were kept strictly under the vigilance of parents, father. Young girls not to mix with any young boy. If one young girl goes out of home and does not come back at night, then her life is finished. Nobody will marry her. So the father had to keep the young girls with great care. And the father was very, very anxious to find out a boy to hand it over. We have seen in our childhood. But now these things are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced divorce law. Now the society is in chaotic condition.

Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way.

Prabhupāda: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. Just that is... You say.

 

Devotee:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: So, people should be trained up.

Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this (Indistinct. Talks with other devotees about something)

Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.

These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.

Director: But not our people all do.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Director: Not our clients all do.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will do. If regular institution runs on with all facility... We get so many devotees come here, after some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. This is... We are increasing; our movement is not decreasing. Just like we have opened a temple here. There was no temple, but we have got a nice temple. In this way all over the world our movement is increasing; it is not decreasing. I came from India alone in New York, 1965. So for one year I had no place to stay, I had no means to eat. I was loitering practically, living in some friend's house and some friend's house. Then gradually it developed, people. I was chanting in a Square in New York alone, full three hours. What is that, Tompkinson Square? Yes. You been in New York? So that was my beginning. Then gradually people came. You were in some club, what is that?

Madhudviṣa: California?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: In ranch.

Prabhupāda: Ranch?

Madhudviṣa: That Morningstar?

Prabhupāda: Ah, ha, ha.

Madhudviṣa: Yes. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was another brothel.

Madhudviṣa: Hippie farm, you came there.

Prabhupāda: So there, and I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there. So I think if we, if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.

Director: Must change society then.

Prabhupāda: No, no change. Let society what it is. We train up some children as we are doing in Dallas, and some men also. Just like we have trained them. It is possible. No. This is practical example. Just like you were in a den, Morningstar.

Director: Have many of your gentlemen been delinquency in your life?

Madhudviṣa: Delinquency?

Director: Yeah. Have you been involved in troubles with the law before you joined?

Madhudviṣa: Oh, many of the devotees.

Director: Have you?

Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes.

Director: You've been in trouble some, have you?

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Devotee: We have one boy here who spent nine months in a penitentiary.

Prabhupāda: This is practical. We can stop. Just like they have become saintly person. Everyone... India they are surprised that "How you have made these Europeans, Americans like this?" They are surprised. Because in India the brāhmaṇas and others, they were under impression that "These Western people, they are hopeless. They cannot be any advanced religionist or spiritual." So when they see we have got many temples in India, that they are worshiping Deity and managing everything, chanting, dancing, they are surprised. Many swamis came before me, but they could not transform. But it is not I who have transformed, but the method is so nice that they became transformed.

Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in some times before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?

Director: But homosexual is a sickness.

Devotee: He said it's an illness.

Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.

Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Director: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else?

Prabhupāda: I am giving the example ideal character.

Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.

Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final. No opinion, no democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion of other patients: "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this gentleman, now give me your opinion." Does he do that? The all patients, what they will think? The physician is the perfect person. Whatever he has written prescription, that's all. But here in the Western... everything, public opinion. What is the use of such opinion?

Director: You don't think the patients have any mind of their own?

Prabhupāda: They have mind, but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Mūòha. Māyayāpahṛta-jïāna. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered condition, there is no value of his opinion.

Director: And what if the brāhmaṇa starts to rule the world in their own interest?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? (break) ...is not for his own interest, for everyone's interest. That is honesty.

Director: What if he's misguided? The world changes and since that book was...

Prabhupāda: Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India, this is the character of the brāhmaṇas that later on gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years, because India was subjugated by foreigners. The Mohammedans, they introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They intr... everyone wants an interest. The Britishers, when British rule came, their Lord Macauley's(?) private report was that "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindu, you will never be able to rule over." So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian.

Director: But you said before that they didn't allow drinking, the British.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Director: It's only now that... Didn't you say before?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction.

Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it.

Prabhupāda: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea. Tea was taken in our childhood if somebody is coughing, sometimes they used to tea. That was also later. But it was unknown. Drinking tea, drinking wine, smoking, meat-eating--these things were unknown. Prostitution. There was prostitution. Not that everyone is prostitute. Very strict. So these things should be taken care of--at least a class of men must be ideal for people others will see. And the training should go on, just like we are doing. We are inviting people to come to chant with us, to dance with us, take prasādam. And gradually they are becoming. The same (?) addicted to drinking, addicted to prostitution, addicted to meat-eating, he is becoming saintly person. This is practical, you can see, what was their previous history and what they are now.

Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein?

Prabhupāda: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather people say bright faces. In Boston one priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swamiji, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as bright faces. In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?"

Director: How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the...

Madhudviṣa: He says "How would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building?"

Prabhupāda: Rob?

Madhudviṣa: A thief. What would we do if a thief came in? In other words, would we be violent?

Prabhupāda: If a thief came in we shall punish him.

Director: You should be violent?

Prabhupāda: Why not? A thief should be punished.

Director: You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him?

Prabhupāda: No, ourself or anyone, a thief is to be punished. A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter. A thief is thief. He should be punished.

Director: What if he breaks in because he is hungry?

Prabhupāda: Who breaks?

Madhudviṣa: He says what if he breaks in because he's hungry?

Prabhupāda: We say everyone come and eat. Why he should remain hungry? We invite everyone, come here, eat, no charge. We don't charge. Why he should remain hungry? Let us increase this program. All hungry men of Melbourne city, come here, you take your eating sumptuously. We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry?

Director: What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry?

Devotee: We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night.

Director: You do?

Devotee: Yes.

Director: Just like the Gordon House.

Devotee: Yes. They come, we have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food.

Prabhupāda: It requires little time to practice. Otherwise, it is open for everyone for reformation.

Director: But you would have your limitations how far you can go in feeding people.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: He says we would have our limitations in that how many people we could feed.

Prabhupāda: We can feed unlimitedly provided the government helps.

Director: You could form... you could make a place destitute people could come and have a free meal.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Everyone, we open to everyone. You come and take prasādam.

Director: Could the government in a word use you...

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot be used by the government. We can use the government. Government cannot dictate us. That will not help.

Director: Just a moment. Just a moment. It is the fact that we have a lot of destitutes to look after, and you feel your religious order would like to help people. If the government subsidizes you to provide these services...

Prabhupāda: That we can do.

Director: That you can do. As long as they don't contradict your...

Prabhupāda: No. Our principle is this.

Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and...

Prabhupāda: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.

Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be...

Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.

Prabhupāda: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.

Director: Of course it's a political decision. I can only...

Prabhupāda: It is above politics.

Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the department means they are another set of...

Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will...

Prabhupāda: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department?

Devotee: Social welfare.

Prabhupāda: Social welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?

Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies--not what he wants but what the people have voted. And they are taxed to support this.

Prabhupāda: If your policy is social reformation...

Director: Social reform is not our policy.

Prabhupāda: Then, social welfare.

Director: Just to look after those who are in trouble.

Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is in trouble. At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble.

Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Physician, heal thyself. You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman-hunters, meat-eaters, and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified.

Director: But you can't help that. You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?

Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word.

Prabhupāda: Inter... how the? I don't...

Director: Does he understand me?

Prabhupāda: Basically, basically one must be first-class ideal man. That is wanted.

Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.

Director: Huh?

Prabhupāda: You find out what is our fault. Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased.

Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our...

Director: Just as you're biased against my life.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not biased. Just like... We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda.

Director: But I as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.

Prabhupāda: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.

Director: What?

Prabhupāda: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. (laughter)

Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he accordingly.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are reforming the public. The select...

Director: Yes, that's what I mean. When you reform the public, then you cannot (indistinct) differently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on.

Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want to change, we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.

Prabhupāda: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take the standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.

Director: I might agree with you that of us will be Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupada: Not whole. We don't...

Director:  Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different.

Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing--Kṛṣṇa says--that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?

Director: You're quite right.

Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...

Director: Yes, a competitive society.

Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.

Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...

Prabhupāda: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.

Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Devotee: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?

Director: In China he's the ideal man.

Devotee: He's a Communist.

Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.

Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter.

Prabhupāda: Well, but you should have... I am not speaking for India or Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand.

Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat.

Prabhupāda: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow, it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter, and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think?

Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.

Director: Well, I certainly wish you luck.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Director: I wish you luck.

Prabhupāda: Hm, thank you.

Director: As a public servant that you reform society as your life. To carry out the instrument of...

Prabhupāda: So kindly cooperate with us. This is... Try to learn the philosophy, and you will be surprised how nice philosophy it is.

Director: I'm quite sure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we don't count for percentage. Let personally become ideal man. The same example: There is no percentage in comparison to the stars and one moon. What is the percentage? There are millions of stars. It is, what is the percentage, one and million? It is practically zero percentage. But still, because it is moon it is more sufficient than all these small stars. So produce moon.

Director: Yes, but that moon is big, and you can recognize it, but another man, just another star...

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. If you cannot make as good as moon...

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: You cannot make, but it is possible if they are ideal men.

Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... it's not just as a star... that your opinion, just like...

Prabhupāda: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ. If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..."

Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out...

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal. (laughter) That is the defect.

Director: But that's how it is.

Prabhupāda: So what can be done? Then hopeless.

Director: Well, you can work on the...

Prabhupāda: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world.

Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.

Prabhupāda: We are doing.

Director: And when you do that, then social welfare...

Prabhupāda: Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?

Director:. Yes, I have...

Prabhupāda: You have illicit... If I say...

Director: I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy, we couldn't live without it. Our marriage is happier because we have sex.

Prabhupāda: Just see. (chuckling) This is the position.

Director: That is the position. We are both...

Prabhupāda: So how they have accepted? (Referring to disciples)

Director: I don't know. I don't know, but I couldn't. Our life is enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't prohibit sex. But we prohibit...

Director: ...don't have two children...

Prabhupāda: ...illicit sex.

Director: Well, we use the pill, or use contraceptives, use all kind of things. Because it makes our...

Prabhupāda: Why do you use contraceptive?

Director: Because don't want any more children.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you stop sex?

Director: Because we like sex.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Director: Because we enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: That means you go to physician, "I want to do everything I like; still I want treatment." This is the position. You want...

Director: I didn't come for treatment. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No, no, I say... (laughs) No, no, you have come for treatment here because you have failed to control the society, your activities; therefore you have come here, treatment. But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept.

Director: I haven't come for treatment.

Prabhupāda: No... yes. Otherwise why you come?

Director: I was invited.

Prabhupāda: Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities. To take some suggestion from us. But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position. You have come here to take some suggestion so that you can make your activities very nice, but when we suggest you reject it.

Director: I'm two people--I'm myself and I'm a public servant.

Prabhupāda: Any, anyone. That is the position. For treatment we go to a physician, and the physician prescribes medicine, you reject it. So how you will be cured? That is the position. When the prescription is given you want to put it in the votes of other patients. What the patient will know about the prescription? They are patients. There is no question of...

Director: If I would come here and want to join your movement I would accept it.

Prabhupāda: No, you join or not join, you have come here to consult us if we can help your activities. But when we prescribe, you do not accept it. That is your position.

Devotee: He has to go now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda, just... So, to, actually to make the whole human society happy, this God consciousness movement must spread.

Director: Well, I'll certainly report back. Thank you very much for seeing me.

Prabhupāda: Just little wait.

Devotee: We have some nice foodstuffs which we're just preparing to (indistinct). It's a custom. Śrīla Prabhupāda said to give prasādam to everyone.

Prabhupāda: It is our custom that if anyone comes, he should be offered a nice seat and given some eatables. Yes.

Director: How long will you be staying in Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: I am going day after tomorrow.

Director: Have you seen many people in Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: They are daily one or two gentlemen, like you they are coming. But they find our prescription very strict. (laughter) And... but we are not going to change it. We are not after vox populi. That is not our concern. We have got our standard method.

Director: Yeah, sure. I believe that you should have these standards if you want them, if anybody wants them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is making us successful. We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like, you take it. If you don't like, you go away. Don't mind.

Director: If you can convince the society to change, then the public servants will change.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in the society, we are inviting everyone, they are coming. They are coming. Gradually they are becoming converted to this.

Director: When will you be coming back to Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: Next January.

Director: Come again this often...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am going, but I only hopeful on these young boys. They will do. Take the whole plate. Take the whole plate, it is fruit, it is very nice. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. This is meant for human being, the fruits. The tigers will not eat the fruits. The tiger, canine teeth, they will not like. We have got different teeth for eating fruit.

Director: It's very nice and sweet.

Prabhupāda: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy?

Your mind will be always disturbed. We cannot get good service from you. So animal also understands that "They are going to kill us." Therefore you don't get sufficient milk. But when they are assured that they will not be killed, they will give double milk. They do not know the psychology. This is going on.

Director: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. (Guest leaves.) This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in Western.

Devotee: This man, he was of a very ripe age, and still he was saying that...

Prabhupāda: Yes, the ripe age, up to the point of death one is sexually inclined. Up to the point of death. There was a minister of Agwar(?). I have told you this story? Yes. At the point of death he was looking to the young girl. That is natural. Unless one is trained up, that is natural. That is māyā's entrapping machine to keep the living entity within this material world.

Śrutakīrti: Sometimes the youth, when we offer them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "When I get older I won't be so attached to this enjoyment, so then I can take it up."

Prabhupāda: They generally think so, but that is not possible.

Śrutakīrti: That is not the fact.

Prabhupāda: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Kṛṣṇa's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.

Devotee: These old men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're trying but they cannot enjoy it very much any more.

Prabhupāda: Unless they enjoy with Kṛṣṇa, it is impossible.

Devotee: They are not finding it so pleasurable as young men?

Prabhupāda: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.

Devotee: No, I mean sex life.

Prabhupāda: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the gṛhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.

Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.

Devotee: And he's the head of the department.

Prabhupāda: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.

Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other second method. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being.

Devotee: Yes, I think so.

Prabhupāda: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now?

Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.

Prabhupāda: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain gṛhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal gṛhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.

Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?

Prabhupāda: Who?

Devotee: In Hong Kong?

Prabhupāda: They are taking. Païca-draviòa Mahārāja is there. He is a sannyāsī. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Gṛhe vā thāke hā gaurāìga bole òāke. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyāsī in the forest or he remains a gṛhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as gṛhastha. Live as an ideal gṛhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all gṛhasthas, all these Païca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a gṛhastha. He did not take sannyāsa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was married. Nityānanda Prabhu was gṛhastha. They were all gṛhasthas, but ideal gṛhastha. So you become an ideal gṛhastha. That also wanted.

Gṛhastha is also called āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. As sannyāsa is called āśrama, similarly gṛhastha is called āśrama. Anywhere cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is going on, that is āśrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as gṛhastha or I be a sannyāsī. But when you have accepted the gṛhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is gṛhastha-āśrama. So, we shall... That's all. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              May 22, 1975, Melbourne                                                          396060                                    

Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk which takes place in Melbourne, Australia, Botanical Gardens on May 22, 1975. (break)

Madhudviṣa: ...the area since 1900.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: And he was telling me that the house that you are living in, Prabhupāda House, was built in 1885.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: 1885, and at that time it was the only house in the whole area for miles around. And it was built by one judge called Moritt(?), Judge Moritt(?). And it was the only house in... They called it "Moritt's folly," "Moritt's folly," because it was built on the sand, and no one thought it could stand for so long. It was built... Because this whole area here was sand, it was all beach, and it was the only house there, and he had stables and very extensive holdings there.

Prabhupāda: Judge, he was judge.

Madhudviṣa: He was a judge, yes. And he impor... He went to great extent to build the house. It was during this boom area when...

Prabhupāda: Englishmen were coming.

Madhudviṣa: Yeah, the Englishmen were coming and because Queen Victoria was there..., the king had died, so the order was passed that no one could buy any, I think, jewelry for their wives.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Madhudviṣa: It was something. The English frowned upon buying jewelry and ornaments for the women. So the men were using their money to build big houses.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: So therefore during the Victorian area, era you have many elaborate houses that were built by the Britishers. And he...

Prabhupāda: Victoria died in 1903.

Madhudviṣa: He was said to have brought some Italian plasterers from Italy to do all that elaborate work on the ceilings in the house.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: So many people are anxious to come into the house to see the work in the construction of the house. And it has been classified as a building of national importance.

Prabhupāda: Oh. The building is known everywhere.

Madhudviṣa: Oh yes. It is important building. They cannot... It is not allowed to be torn down. It is protected by the...

Prabhupāda: Historical.

Madhudviṣa: Historical building. It is protected by the government.

Śrutakīrti: Yesterday you were telling Bhūrijana they should make the temple a tourist attraction. So with this method, it would be very easy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (coughs)

Śrutakīrti: Roll down the window.

Prabhupāda: ...the demonic, they construct very nice house.

                                                                                                                                                                        395135

Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?

Prabhupāda: Then that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa Himself. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.

Devotee 8: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha Deities and Gaura-Nitāi Deities.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee 8: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha Deities and...

Prabhupāda: Better Gaura-Nitāi Deities.

Devotee 8: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Better Gaura-Nitāi.

Devotee 8: So they have to do full Deity worship when they have these Deities?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee 8: They have to do full Deity worship to have these Deities? Dress the Deities every day?

Prabhupāda: They are supposed to do so, but whether they are able to do so, that is the point. If you can worship properly, that's all right. But whether you are able to worship?

Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, can a person go back to a spiritual planet without initiation?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee 7: Can a person go back to a spiritual planet...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no more init... Initiation here required when the living entity is in darkness. Just like uneducated person requires to go to school. One who is educated, in his full knowledge, he doesn't go.

Madhudviṣa: The question was, Prabhupāda, is it possible for a person to return to the spiritual world without taking initiation from a bona fide spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī said, ā dau gurv-āśrayam. First business is to accept spiritual master. Ā dau gurv-āśrayam. Who will train him? He is already fool, rascal. He must be trained up. So he must be trained up by the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee 9: Is second initiation necessary, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Second or first only.

Devotee 9: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are you saying? You said before there's no necessary for a spiritual master and now you...

Devotee 1: He said in the spiritual world there is no necessity.

Devotee 9: Oh, in the spiritual world.

Devotee 1: Everyone is in full knowledge. In the material world everyone is in darkness.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hari bol! Hari bol! (break)

Devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it appears that there is a group of persons here in Australia who think, judging from the different questions that are being asked, they are thinking that it is not required to formally accept...

Prabhupāda: There are so many rascal swamis come. They say like that, "There is no need of guru."

Devotee 1: Yeah, right. They think that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart and you can accept initiation by that way.

Prabhupāda: You do not know where to find out Kṛṣṇa in the heart.

 

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers, and Guest                        May 22, 1975, Melbourne                       395167

Madhudviṣa: ...who are here, they would like to have your association, (laughter) more personal association.

Prabhupāda: I also like. (laughter) Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. This is essential, to be anxious to be associated with the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. That is the statement of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa one comes in touch with the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of spiritual master, one gets Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām. Kṛṣṇa can understand what we want. So when we sincerely want Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa sends His representative, guru. Guru is outside representative of Kṛṣṇa. So to the sincere student, Kṛṣṇa teaches from inside and outside. That is the way, so that he becomes quickly fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. So this behavior, to be attached to spiritual master, is a good qualification. Yasya prasādāt, by his mercy, Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. By Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one gets spiritual master, and by the spiritual master's mercy, one gets the mercy of Kṛṣṇa.

So your this behavior, attachment, is very much appreciated both by Kṛṣṇa and devotees. So continue this attitude and follow the instruction. Then it is guaranteed, go back to home, back to Godhead. It is not difficult. For a sincere person to go back to home, back to Godhead is not at all difficult. Especially Kṛṣṇa in this age has personally appeared as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very, very kind to the fallen souls. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. His business was with all the pāpī and tāpī. Pāpī means sinful, and tāpī means suffering. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo... (to child:) Sit down.

Woman: I must give him tissues.

Prabhupāda: Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo. So His business was pāpī-tāpī? No, His business was with the most exalted personalities like... Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta. They were all very exalted personalities. But all of their mission was to deliver the pāpī-tāpīs. That we have described in our that small book, Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya in Five Features. So pāpī-tāpī is everyone, in this age especially. But if we take shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by His mercy we get everything. So now Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda has come to Melbourne, very nicely looking. So keep yourself always engaged in the service of the Lord. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛìgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Śrī-vigrahārādhana, this arcana process, beginning from maìgala-ārātrika up to the sāyam-ārātrika, everything should be done very nicely. And the temple should be made very clean. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. To dress the Deity is as much important as to cleanse the temple also, not that temple will remain dirty, simply you are dressing the Deity.

No. Everything within the temple should be kept very, very neat and clean. And the more you keep the temple neat and clean, you will be neat and clean within your heart. And then your understanding will be very easy. We cannot understand Kṛṣṇa because our heart is piled up with many garbages. That we have to cleanse. Then it will be easy to understand Kṛṣṇa. So I am very much pleased that we have secured this nice building. Keep it very neat and clean and go on chanting. You have got nice place for chanting and dancing. And utilize the open land for growing flower. In this way make this center unique. And it is a recognized building. If people understand that this building is now a temple and very nicely kept, people will come and see. So keep yourself always in touch with the principles and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and those who are... All of you, I think, you are educated. Read books. Try to understand the philosophy. Then your life is successful. Thank you very much for your coming.

(devotees offer obeisances) All of them are resident?

Madhudviṣa: Residents?

Prabhupāda: Resident in this temple?

Madhudviṣa: We would like them all to be residents. But some of them find it little difficult to be residents.

Prabhupāda: Make it suitable. Hm. All right.

Madhudviṣa: They don't want to go.

Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) (break)

Madhudviṣa: ...one of our very dear friends, Raymond Lopez. He is a barrister and a visitor who has helped us out tremendously with some of the legal dealings that we've had here in Melbourne. And also this is Mr. Wally Strauss, he has also helped us out and given us good guidance. And this is Bob Bourne(?), he is a photographer who has... He has taken that nice picture of the Deities that I have brought to Māyāpura festival.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Madhudviṣa: Very nice. So he has taken many photographs for us. And we are particularly indebted to Wally and Raymond for giving us a lot of good guidance in our dealings with the police. And one time we had one incident about three years ago, when some of the boys were a little enthusiastic about Ratha-yātrā festival, and they went out and they picked many flowers illegally. So they were caught.

Prabhupāda: Illegally? Where? In the park?

Madhudviṣa: No. In one flower-growing nursery.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: So they were found out and caught. But Raymond was able to get them off free due to Kṛṣṇa's mercy. But it taught us a good lesson.

Guest 1: Actually I think they had the wrong people.

Prabhupāda: There was a great devotee in South India. He was a treasury officer. So he took money from the treasury and constructed very nice temple. (laughter) Yes. Later on, he was caught, and he was put into jail by the Nawab. At that time the Mohammedan king, Nawab, he saw in dream that two boys, very beautiful, they have come to the Nawab: "Sir, what money he has taken, you can take from me and release him." So the Nawab said, "If I get my money, I can release him." Then, when his dream broke, he saw the money on the floor, and nobody was there. Then he could understand that he is great devotee. He called him immediately, that "You are released, and you take this money also. Whatever you have already taken, that's all right. And now this money also you take. You spend as you like." So devotees sometimes do like that. Actually nothing is private property. That is our philosophy. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: "Everything belongs to God." That's a fact. Under the influence of māyā we are thinking that "This is my property."

Just like suppose this cushion. Wherefrom the wood has come? Has anybody produced wood? Who has produced? It is God's property. Rather, we have stolen God's property and claiming, "My property." Then Australia. The Englishmen came here, but is that the property of the Englishmen? It was there. America, it was there. And when everything will be finished, it will be there. In the middle we come and claim, "It is my property," and fight. Is it not? You are a barrister, you can judge better.

Guest 2: That was the argument he used.

Guest 1: No, It (indistinct). (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Originally, originally, everything belongs to God. So why we are claiming, "It is my property"? Suppose you have come here. You sit down for one hour, two hours, and if you claim, "It is my property," is that very good judgement? You have come from outside, you are allowed to sit down here for two hours, and if you claim, "This is my property..." Similarly, we come here. We take birth either in America or in Australia or in India and remain for fifty, sixty or hundred years, and why shall I claim, "It is my property"?

Guest 3: You don't claim it, I suppose. If you own property, what happens, I would have thought, is more that for a time you have got possession.

Prabhupāda: For a time you have got possession of the chair--that does not mean your property.

Guest 3: But I suppose if somebody came and took the chair while I've got it in my possession, I'd be terribly upset about it.

Prabhupāda: No, that is a (indistinct) thing. Nobody will disturb you. You remain in your chair. (laughter) That does not mean because you have sat down on the chair for two hours, you become proprietor.

Guest 2: One gets attached.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest 2: One gets attached to the chair. I like this chair. It's a nice chair.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. You like, you sit down, and you go when it is finished. But how do you claim that it is your property?

Guest 2: Good-bye. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. This is māyā. The philosophy of māyā, māyā means what is not. Mā-yā. Mā means not, yā means this. So māyā means the conclusion, as you have made, that is not. That is not the fact. So we are claiming, "America is our", "Australia is our", "India is our". Nothing our. Everything God's. The best conclusion is, "It is God's property. God has given us to live. Let us thank God, feel obliged to Him, and glorify Him." That is our vision. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You accept the real position, that nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to God. You also belong to God. Your body, yourself, everything belongs to God. This body is material body. That material energy, earth, water, air, fire--everything belongs to God. This sea belongs to God, water, vast water. You have not created, neither your forefather has created. So this body is made of earth, water, air, fire, five elements. So your, the body is also God's.

So far I am soul, I am also part and parcel of God. So everything belongs to God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are falsely claiming that "It is our." This is māyā. Māyā means what is not fact. That is the meaning of māyā.

Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this concept that everything belongs to God, it can't work unless everybody believes that everything belongs to God.

Prabhupāda: Then everybody may be mad. That does not change the fact. If some madman comes in this room and he fights, "I am the proprietor. You get out," so that is not the fact.

Guest 1: I understand, you know you were talking about the sea and so on. But it's for people to use.

Prabhupāda: Use, you can use. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthāḥ. That is the Vedic injunction. What is given to you, you use it. Just like one gentleman has got five sons. He gives one son, "This is your property. This is your property. This you can use." But the sons must acknowledge that "This is father's property. He has given us." Similarly, in the Vedic śāstra it is said that "Everything belongs to God, and whatever He has given to you, you can use. Don't encroach upon others."

Guest 1: But if He has given... You were saying that if He's given something to you and don't encroach upon others, but there are certain things that one person has or one group of persons have which, I think, truly can be said that...

Prabhupāda: And originally we have to accept. Everything belongs to God. Just like father and sons. The son must know, "The property is father's." That is the real knowledge. Now, "Whatever father has given me, I will use it. Why shall I encroach upon others, my other brother, which he has got from the father?" This is good sense. "Why shall I fight with my other brother? My father has given him this property to him, so let him use that, and whatever he has given me, let me use it. Why shall I encroach upon his property?" This is good sense.

Guest 1: I can understand when you say, "Don't encroach on other people's property." And I believe, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that if you have something, if someone's given you something and someone else wants to use it, then let him. I can understand that. But don't you get into the stage and can't you get to the stage at times that for some reason or other you don't want him to use it?

Prabhupāda: I don't want to use my thing?

Madhudviṣa: He's saying that if someone does not want, that you don't want someone to use what you have. If someone tries to forcibly take...

Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing.

Guest 1: The situation could arise when you wouldn't want somebody to use what you were using for some particular reason. You might be using it yourself at that time. That situation can arise that you don't want...

Madhudviṣa: We are believing that everything belongs to God. If someone else does not believe in that concept and tries to use...

Prabhupāda: That is wrong, that I say. That is his wrong conception.

Guest 2: Well, how do you reconcile or how do you work out a situation... If everything belongs to God, we have to run society, and...

Prabhupāda: But you don't forget that everything belongs to God. Because you have to run society, it does not mean that you forget the real thing.

Guest 1: So I really don't object to that idea at all. But the thing is that the system we're working within has got different concepts.

Prabhupāda: It should be rectified.

Guest 1: It should be...?

Prabhupāda: Rectified.

Madhudviṣa: The system should be rectified.

Guest 1: I suppose Wally and I are thinking on the same wavelength because we can imagine the problems that we'd have.

Prabhupāda: Now you have got the United Nations. Now, if they are sane men, they should pass resolution, "The whole world belongs to God, and we are all God's sons. So let us make now United States of the World." That can be easily done. If they can make United States of America, why not United States of the whole world?

Guest 2: I think that would probably solve a lot of problems because...

Prabhupāda: Yes, all problems. Now, suppose in India there is scarcity of foodstuff. In America, in Africa, in Australia, there is enough grain. Produce foodstuff, distribute. Then immediately whole nations become united. Use everything, God's gift--we are all sons--very nicely. Then the, all the problems solved. Now the difficulty is that we have made, "No, this is my property. We shall use it, nation." In the Vedic conception there is no such thing as national. There is no such conception. That is the idea, Vedic conception of society or politics. There is no question of national.

Guest 1: You're thinking more of an international world than a national world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I certainly don't.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we want to do: one God, one state, one scripture, and one activity. That is the ultimate end of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are from different countries. We don't think as nationalism, that "I am American," "I am Indian." No. We all think that "We are all servant of Kṛṣṇa." And they are working in that spirit. It is possible. If this idea is accepted in that United Nation, it can be done. But they will not accept. They are going go be united, but everyone is thinking, "First of all my interest." All cheating. They are outwardly, "Now we have come to the United Nation," but no one is going to be united. Everyone is thinking, "It is my first interest first. I must give veto if he's opposing." This is going on. Therefore for the last twenty years or more than that, they are trying to be united, but it is becoming disunited. The flags are increasing. In New York they have got their headquarters. When I pass through, I see that another flag has increased.

So this United Nations is a failure and it will be failure because there is no God consciousness.

Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails. I don't... I think things are changing definitely throughout the world. It's a matter of which course they take.

Prabhupāda: No, what changing? They are preparing for war again. Where is changing? A slight provocation, there may be war.

Guest 1: Yes, but people are changing now. You're getting the young people who for the first time in years are becoming aware and are getting interested in things outside their own town, their own individual state or whatever it is they have. You have people, the young people now are getting interested in things like poverty, they're interested in Bangladesh and so on. This is good. But you nonetheless have a very large proportion of the people who have got that idea of, "I'm all right, and I'll look after mine without taking the overall picture into account." And I think that so long as you have different concepts, different beliefs, it's going to be very hard to get into what you're talking about.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be united first, that... First thing is that everyone should be convinced or understand clearly that everything belongs to God. But they have no conception of God even. That is the difficulty. The whole human society at the present moment, majority, they are Godless, especially the Communists. They don't acknowledge. The scientist, the philosopher, the scholars--all Godless. Scientists' special business is how to defy God. They say, "Science is everything. We can do everything by science." There is no need of God. Huh?

Guest 2: I don't think so any more. They're a lot more enlightened.

Prabhupāda: Not any more?

Guest 2: Well, in some circles, yes I think.

Prabhupāda: That was never any more, but if they are realizing that, that is very good.

Guest 1: But you can't say that scientists are working in a way that is opposite to God's will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they say. They say, oh yes. I have met many scientists. They say that "We shall solve everything by scientific advancement. We have done already." They say like that.

Guest 1: But just because they...

Prabhupāda: Just like there is a big theory, chemical theory. One big scientist... Big or small, whatever he may be, he has got a Nobel Prize.

Guest 1: He's medium sized. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest 1: He's medium sized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is making the theory that life has come from chemicals by chemical combination, chemical evolution. Darwin's theory is also of that. This is their... Big, big scientists, they are so fool that life has come from matter. Where is the proof? He was lecturing in California University, and there was one student. He is my disciple. He challenged him that "If you get the chemicals, whether you can manufacture life?" That answer was, "That I cannot say." Why? You are putting this theory, that life has come from chemicals. So science means observation and experiment. Now experimentally prove that the chemicals have produced a life.

Guest 1: They're trying. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. When you are trying to be a lawyer or barrister, that does not mean you are barrister. When you are a student of law you cannot say that "I am barrister," or "advocate," that you cannot say. You are trying to be, that is another thing. But while they are trying to be, they are taking the position of leader. That is the misleading. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. "One blind man is trying to lead many other blind men." What is the use of such leading? If the leader is blind, how he will do well to other blind men?

Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Madhudviṣa: Beethoven, the great composer, he was deaf.

Guest 3: At least, for part of his life.

Guest 1: But can't you have people doing good for the sake of goodness?

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is good.

Guest 1: But there are certain people...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say blind. He does not know what is good. real goodness is to understand God. That is real goodness.

Guest 1: But there are certain things that you don't..., that are good, that you can accept as being good just by themselves. Now if you see an old lady who gets run over by a car, you go and help her. Now there are certain things that are good by themselves, I think, and that people will react and do the good thing even though they mightn't have any concept of God.

Prabhupāda: No. Unless you have got the real platform how you can do good? Just like our Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was obliged to you. You have done some good in legal affairs. But unless you are a lawyer, legal man, how can you do it? You have a mind to do good, but if you are not a lawyer, how could you do?

Guest 2: But there would be a lot of lawyers to do...

Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. I am talking of yourself. If one does not know what is good, then how he will do good? The first business is that he must know what is good. Then he can do something good. Otherwise what is the use of jumping like monkey? He must know. Because you are a lawyer you know how to deal with law, you can do good. But a layman who is not a lawyer, how he can do good? So therefore, anyone who is posing himself as leader to do good to the society, he must know first of all what is good.

Guest 2: Would you say that the lawyer can do good whether or not he believes in God?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good?

Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training.

Madhudviṣa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right?

Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes.

Madhudviṣa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't...

Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying.

Madhudviṣa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us.

Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action?

Madhudviṣa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing.

Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car.

Madhudviṣa: That lady may have been...

Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road?

Madhudviṣa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there.

Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...

Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture--everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

Śrutakīrti: What is it, idaṁ hi...

Prabhupāda: Puṁsaḥ. Yes, the direction is... Read it.

Śrutakīrti: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā...

Prabhupāda: Come here.

Śrutakīrti:

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

"Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupāda: The advancement of knowledge in any department, that is very good. But what is the aim? The aim is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Just like you are lawyer. You gave us help in some difficulty time. Why? Because you wanted to continue glorification of the Lord, that "These men are doing nice. Why they should be harassed?" So that means you helped glorification of the Lord. So that's your success as a lawyer. So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect. In another place... Find out this verse,

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Just like you have helped this institution in a difficult position. That means you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is your success. My devotees are in difficulty.

They wanted some legal help. You, as a lawyer, helped them, so you have pleased Kṛṣṇa, God. That is the aim of life. Whether by my work in different spheres, as a lawyer, as a businessman, or as a scholar, as a philosopher, as a scientist, as an economist... There are so many demands. It doesn't matter. But you should see whether you are successful. And what is the standard of success? The standard of success is whether you have pleased God. You read this. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ...

Śrutakīrti: Ataḥ...

Prabhupāda: Pumbhir.

Śrutakīrti: Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Find out this verse.

Śrutakīrti:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

"Oh best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord, Hari."

Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession--you are in a different dress--it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyāsī or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God.

Then everything will be all right.

Guest 3: I think this is the attitude to certainly my religion, where we believe that through the profession, the way you mention it, we are doing things towards God. And even in the ordinary days of the week, that you could be doing or generally making life in a way to please God. And that's my belief because my religion has the same belief as what you've just been mentioning, that even through the running of the professions and all the practice of the profession is one way of helping people. And because you are helping people you are in fact doing something that God wants.

Prabhupāda: No, not general people.

Guest 3: It's the indirect way because God wants people to be happy. Now, if you can help people, if you can help people as people, surely that means that you must be pleasing God.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all... Suppose you are a lawyer, and some man has committed murder, and he wants your help. And suppose by your legal tricks you save him. So that will not please God. (laughter)

Guest 3: You've got a different consideration here.

Guest 2: You've got a lot of places and names for that.

Guest 3: We've got a different consideration here, you see, because the law that we have is very different from God's law. And I think that... (break)

Prabhupāda: You must accept God's law, not the people's law.

Guest 1: Well, the problem is that we're confined by the state law here just as the boys with the flowers. Now, maybe in Kṛṣṇa's law they did nothing wrong, but they were still subjected to being taken away like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he saved them. He saved them.

Guest 3: Now wait a minute. I want to get this thing straight, if I may. One boy was charged. Now, I don't care what happened or where the flowers came from. I was told and I believe that that particular boy was not involved. Now, someone else may have been. But as far as I was concerned, I believed that the boy that they got was not involved himself. Now, I'm not saying that some other people were not involved. But I think that that particular boy, I am satisfied... Do you agree with this, Wally?

Guest 1: Yeah, but even if you had been told that that boy did it, your job would have been to...

Guest 3: If they say that boy... If I was told, "Look, that boy did it," then the case would have been done completely differently because then you can't then go around and say, "Look, he didn't do it." So it's a different approach, different approach altogether you see. But as far as... I just wanted to get that thing straight, as far as that particular boy. But according to the law in here, we have to operate within our law. Now, true it is that outside of it, you have got the question of God's law. But I'm not that kind of lawyer. I'm not involved with God's law.

Prabhupāda: No, I... I know that. That is not...

Guest 3: I can only operate with the tools that I have.

Guest 1: But even if you are a church, if you are a church-goer it makes it very interesting because you're subject to that church law.

Guest 3:. Well, I'm a church-going person.

Guest 1: What happens in the situation where somebody has committed a murder?

Guest 3: Nothing. It's... Look...

Guest 1: It's a matter of church conscience.

Guest 3: It's nothing. It's got nothing to do... I'm not there to judge...

Guest 1: This was the example given.

Guest 3: I'm not there to judge. All I'm there to do is to do a job. Someone else has got the unfortunate task of having to judge people. I don't have to do that, so I don't decide.

Prabhupāda: No, we can judge from the standard laws. India still, if one has very good garden and flowers, if somebody goes, "Sir, I want to take some flowers from your garden for worshiping God," "Yes, you can take." They will be very glad.

Guest 1: This man, his livelihood depended on those flowers and I don't... I think his possessions were more important to him unfortunately.

Guest 3: It's a funny story. There's a funny follow up to that one, and that is that the flowers were taken from two men that ran nurseries. And we had to go through an appeal finally to get heard. But just before the appeal came off the boys needed a glass house because of their special plants, which you've got outside here.

Śrutakīrti: Tulasī.

Guest 3: And they didn't know anything about glass houses. So they were driving around and one said, "Well, let's go and find out something about glass houses. Oh, there's a nice nursery." (laughter) So the car drives up, you see. The devotee comes out, and he said, "Excuse me, sir, but we're interested in glass houses." He said, "Will you please get out of my land?" The same nursery. (laughter) There were two hundred nurseries around the area. He picked that particular one.

Prabhupāda: But if people would have been God conscious, they would have excused, "Oh, they have come for God's service. All right, you can take." Therefore the first business is to make people God conscious. Then everything is adjusted. Yasyāsti bhaktiḥ, there is a verse in Bhāgavata,

yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā

sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā

manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ

The meaning is that "Anyone who is God conscious, a devotee, he has got all the good qualities. What we consider as good qualities, he has got. And similarly, one who is not a devotee of God, he has no good qualities because he will hover on the mental platform. There are different platform: bodily concept of life, general, "I am this body. Therefore my business is to satisfy the senses." This is bodily concept of life. And others, they are thinking, "I am not this body. I am mind." So they are going on mental speculation like philosophers, thoughtful men.

And above that, there is intelligent class of men, practicing some yoga. And spiritual platform means above that. First bodily concept, gross, then mental, then intellectual, then spiritual. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is on the spiritual platform, above body, mind and intelligence. But actually, we should come to that platform. Because we are spirit soul, we are neither this body nor this mind nor this intelligence. So one who is on the platform of spiritual consciousness, they have got everything, intelligence, proper use of mind, proper use of the body. Just like a millionaire, he has got all the lower grade possession. Ten rupees or hundred rupees or hundred pounds--he has got all, everything. Similarly, if we try to make an attempt to bring people on the platform of God consciousness, then he is possessing all other qualities: how to take care of the body, how to use the mind, how to use intelligence, everything. But it is not possible that everyone should become God conscious.

That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required. That is described in the Śrīmad-..., Bhagavad-gītā, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.

That is necessary.

Guest 2: I think the problem in western society, because in western society if you're not the head, then you're inferior.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest 2: If you're not the head, you're inferior. In Indian society that's not so.

Prabhupāda: Who shall be the head?

Guest 2: All want to be heads, in one way or another.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: He says that we all want to be heads.

Prabhupāda: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brāhmaṇa. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brāhmaṇas, first class. One class of man should be kṣatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaiśya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three.

Guest 2: The ideal in western societies is all people should be equal.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not ideal and neither it is possible. Not that everyone is going to be lawyer. Even though everyone has got the ambition to become a first-class lawyer and earn like anything, but that is not possible. So therefore it requires selection, who will become a lawyer, who will become a scientist, who will become a medical man...

Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time.

Guest 2: But once you have the idea in your head that you can be prime minister, you don't want to be a laborer.

Prabhupāda: Then you become. But if he is a loafer and he wants to become prime minister, then it will create havoc. Just like in America. He was not fit for the president's post. Nixon was elected. Then again he has to be dragged down. We say the fit man should go to become a particular...

 

Morning Walk                                               May 23, 1975, Melbourne                                                         395534

Śrutakīrti: The following is Prabhupāda's final morning walk in Melbourne, Australia, in the Botanical Gardens on May 23rd, 1975.

Prabhupāda: ...filled with fruits and flowers, then it would have invited many nice birds. But they do not know that. (break) ...chirping, the beauty of the gardens would have been more beautiful. But they cannot invite. There is no fruits, no flower.

Sabhāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, all the devotees on the walk this morning, they are the book distributors.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Sabhāpati: They are the Australian book distributors, all the devotees on the walk this morning.

Prabhupāda: It is a fact that they do not grow fruit trees because people will eat and will not work? Is that the policy? Somebody told me like that, that if there is enough fruit, then people will eat and they will not work.

Paramahaṁsa: The fruit business would go down also. The fruit stands would not be able to sell much.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Bad policy.

Śrutakīrti: The government does that. On some farmers they will pay them not to grow to keep the price high.

Prabhupāda: Kill animals. Just see the policy. Instead of growing natural food, they will kill animal. Purposefully sinful life.

Śrutakīrti: But they still have to grow food for the animal. They're growing the food, but they give it to the animal.

Prabhupāda: Fruit?

Śrutakīrti: No, the food. They grow food for the animals, but then they kill the animal.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They can grow food both for the animals and for human being. Instead, they are simply growing food for the animals and killing them. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. You sing this before taking prasādam. The tongue is the greatest enemy and greedy. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. For the satisfaction of the tongue they are risking their own life and committing sinful life to suffer later on. Therefore the first-class man's first duty is to śamaḥ, controlling the mind. If one can control the mind, that "If I can live with grains, food, and milk, why shall I kill the ani...?" this is controlling the mind. They cannot control even this small thing. "Live and let live,"--this policy they do not follow. "Live and kill others." "Live at the cost of others."

Australian devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that the weaker are the subsistence of the strong. So therefore human beings, they feel justified...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the... but where is the human consciousness? A tiger cannot understand this. He will kill a lower animal. But you are not animal; you are man. You should have this discrimination, that "If I can live otherwise very nicely, why shall I kill animal?" That is humanity.

Australian devotee 1: But also, is not eating vegetables killing a living entity also?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not killing. If you take fruit, where is the killing? The tree is there. If you takes food grains, the food grains, after being produced, the tree dies automatically.

Śrutakīrti: Yeah. Wheat is harvested after it dies, not while it is alive.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ram Das: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New Zealand we have a situation where the main industry is killing animals, the biggest industry, yet there is so much rain, so much nice atmosphere over there. Why is this? Why is there such a nice atmosphere but they are killing so many cows? Is that that they are innocent and they do not know and so Kṛṣṇa is not punishing them so much?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will be punished. (pause) (break) ...so many motor accidents. And there will be war. Then wholesale punishment. Then killing, being killed within the womb of the mother. They are being punished. Nowadays these things have been introduced. Now this child which is being killed by the mother, they are all these sinful men. They cannot come out even, out of the womb of the mother. There they are killed. Nature's law is very strict.

Australian devotee 2: In the western society, Śrīla Prabhupāda, people who are displaying a very bad sinful reaction in their birth are put away in institutions so they cannot be seen by the general mass of people.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Śrutakīrti: He's saying people that are suffering very greatly in this life--they have so many mental disorders or physical disorders--they put them in institutions so that no one can see them.

Prabhupāda: No one can see them. That means they are not suffering? (laughter) Just see how foolish persons.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we have seen already a reaction is coming about against the killing of unborn children. There is one big poster that is being put up by a protest group which says, "The Queen Victoria Hospital kills unborn babies. Protest now," like this. So there is, I think, it's the Right to Life Movement in Victoria here that is fighting against this abortion activity.

Prabhupāda: But they are so sinful that they are unable to carry out. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye. If there is a serpent, if you advise him, "Please do not kill; be gentleman," will be become? Snake. Snake will kill, unnecessarily bite and kill. Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ: "There are two envious living entities. One is the serpent and other is the envious man. So the envious man is more dangerous than the serpent." Why? Now, the serpent can be charmed by drugs and by mantra, but this man cannot be charmed. So this advice will not act. They are so dangerous than the serpent.

Australian devotee 3: How, then, can we advise them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they are like serpents? How can we...?

Prabhupāda: You can advise only, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right," this one medicine. You can simply make plan how they will chant and take prasādam. Then everything all right. This simple method. Bring them: "Please come here, chant, dance, and take prasādam." They will be all good men. This process. Otherwise if you give them good advice, they will not be able to carry it. They are so sinful. Their treatment, the only treatment, is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Somehow or other, bring them together. Let them chant. Let them dance and take prasādam. They will be all right. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other means to rectify them. We are opening centers different parts of the world just to give them chance, "Please come here, take prasādam, chant, dance, enjoy," but that transcendental enjoyment will make them correct. We are the best friends of the human society.

 

Car Conversation                                         May 23, 1975, Melbourne                                                          395514

Prabhupāda: Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, idaṁ te na atapaskāya. Those who have no life of penance and austerities, don't talk with them. It will be a waste of time. You know that there is verse in the Bhagavad-gītā? In Eighteenth Chapter. Idaṁ te na atapaskāya, māṁ ca yaḥ abhyasūyati: "Persons who are envious of Me and those who have not undergone austerity and penances, don't talk with them." But we take the risk. We go even to these rascals. Because for Kṛṣṇa's sake, "Never mind, it will take some time. Let me try this rascal." Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy. So far argument, logic, philosophy is concerned, they are beyond... Because they are animal. They cannot understand.

Devotee (2): You have it's just like when someone has jaundice and he sees everything as yellow and you cannot convince him if something is white.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the...

Devotee (2): He must become purified.

Prabhupāda: So therefore, the treatment is, some way or other, induce them to come and chant and dance with us and take prasādam. This program should be accelerated.

Śrutakīrti: Spiritual life starts with the tongue.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau.

Devotee (3): Like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the solicitor there last night. When I first made contact with him, he took two days to think about it whether he would act for us or not. And now, through association, he's becoming more purified, stopped eating meat, stopped smoking cigarettes, and now he likes us very much.

Prabhupāda: He is being purified himself?

Devotee (3):. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we have to take little patience. That is preaching work. Don't be impatient. Let us do our duty on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Even the result is not very appreciable, still we have to do it. This is preaching. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu. He was hurt by Jagāi-Mādhāi. Still, He determined, "No, these two boys must be delivered." This is the example. "Never mind, they have injured Me; still, I shall deliver them." And He did it. They became Vaiṣṇava. So our preaching determination should be like that, not that we are failure in some cases, and therefore give it up. No. This is our business. We must go on doing this. Failure or success, it doesn't matter. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to preach. He never said, "If you are failure, don't preach." Never said that. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa: "Whomever you meet, you just give him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." He never says that "If somebody does not hear you, don't do it." No. Kṛṣṇa said that "Don't talk with the fools and rascals and those who are not undergone some penances."

Kṛṣṇa said. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind. He said, "To everyone say."

Śrutakīrti: So we are following Lord Caitanya's...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I came to western country with no hope. I knew that my Godbrother, Bon Mahārāja, came, he failed. Then Gosvāmī Mahārāja was there, so many swamis and yogis came here, nobody could turn them. So I came here just with a purpose, "Let me try." But I was not hopeful at all. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is now successful.

Devotee (1): A great success.

Prabhupāda: And therefore let us try. And success, no success, depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Already I have noticed a difference with the new temple which has opened in Melbourne, with the group of adults that are coming around to become interested now because we have a permanent place here.

Prabhupāda: On the whole, we have got very nice house. (Prabhupāda gets out of car and is greeted by devotees) Thank you. (end)

 

Interview                                                             May 25 Fiji, 1975                                                                395684

Interviewer: Swamiji, it's been said sometimes that India has too much philosophy and the west has too much materialism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: Where is the right balance in this modern world?

Prabhupāda: Balance is that you should be reciprocal exchange. What you haven't got, you give me; what I haven't got, I give you. This should be the process of exchange. Then the world will be united. When there is exchange of gifts. But our India followed the principle for begging. "Give me men. Give me money. Give me wheat. Give me rice. Give me war materials." Simply begging. So we must give something. This is the first time we are giving something. Otherwise, India was a beggar simply to the western countries. For their technical education they are going to the western countries, and when there is war, they are asking America, "Please give us war materials." And when they give war materials to Pakistan we become envious. But you are also taking rice, òāl for this(?). So why should you remain beggar?

Interviewer: Finally Swamiji, what is the relevance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in our modern society?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Interviewer: What would be the relevance of Kṛṣṇa's teaching in...

Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāìkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided.

So these things are going on. So lamenting, we have lost our... But if you take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very seriously, you can make the whole world Hindustan.

Interviewer: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

                                                                                                                                                                        395697

Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk conversation in Honolulu, Hawaii, on May 27th, 1975, on Waikiki Beach.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...and the water. (Hindi). (break) ...and one fourth land and we are puzzled with the increase of population. But there is no puzzle, three-fourths water population. Wherever you go, you get immediately many thousand fishes. So just imagine how many fishes are there. These rascals say "Overpopulation." Why not overpopulation there? Huh? The fishes, for want of food, they are dying and floating? Why overpopulation? All their calculation are simply bogus. There is no question of overpopulation. Even... Just like people simply can live on mango and coconut. Where is the question of over-population? It is chastisement. When one cannot get proper food, that is not due to overpopulation. It is due to godlessness. As soon as people will become godless, nature will chastise them--no food, no rain, suffer. This is law. (?) (break)

 

Morning Walk                                                 May 28, 1975, Honolulu                                                         395818

Prabhupāda: No. Caitanya, also. All incarnation. (break) ... Difficulty is that these foolish man, they cannot understand that God is a person. Therefore they are puzzled. That is the difficulty. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: impersonal Brahman, Paramātmā, localized Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead--that they cannot understand. They take that impersonal Brahman as important.

Bali-mardana: Previously people believed in the personal idea, but now they have become very envious. They have tried to get rid of it.

Prabhupāda: More demons. Because with the progress of so-called civilization, people are becoming more and more demons, so they cannot understand. Mūòhā nābhijānāti. Mūòhā, he cannot understand. That is the difficulty. More dull-headed, less intelligent persons are coming. Just see. Formerly there was no skyscraper building. Now they are thinking "So long this body is there, let us enjoy." And the..., in the body, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... But the soul is within the body--there is no care. And that he is going to become a dog next life, but he is satisfied that "This life I have got this skyscraper building." That's all.

Bali-mardana: Previously the only big building was the church.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big church or king's royal palace, like that. Ordinary men, they used to live in cottage. That is especially in India. They did not... What is the use? If you are not going to live there... It is a common sense. But they have no idea. They are thinking, "We shall live forever in this house." And Kṛṣṇa says that "I will come as death and take away all your possession." That they cannot understand. They will think that "No, my possession is all. I will die. I will go to hell. Still, it is my possession." This is. He will go to hell; still, his possession. (laughs) This is intelligence.

Gurukṛpa: They are so dependent that if there is no electricity, where will they get water on the twentieth floor?

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that... There are so many inconveniences. There is no doubt about it. But he is thinking, "Now I have done this skyscraper building, it is my possession, and even though I go to hell, it will remain my possession." He does not believe next life, but he is thinking, "My generation." But if there is no next life, what is the question of generation? Who is coming to become your generation if there is no next life? Hm? "My son, my grandson will..." But who is coming to be your... Because there is no next life, everything is finished with this body, then who is coming to be your son and who is coming to be your grandson? The common sense. But they are so dull, they cannot understand.

Gurukṛpa: You once told us the story of the rich man, and he died and became a...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is also believing next life. But if they do not believe next life, then who is coming to be your son? Why you are so anxious for your son and grandson?

Bali-mardana: It is simply an accident.

Prabhupāda: So for accident you are spending so much money and energy? All contradictory. There is no even comon sense. Still, they will not take the actual fact from the authoritative śāstra. (break) ...nābhijānāti. (break)

 

Morning Walk                                               May 29, 1975, Honolulu                                                           396005

Prabhupāda: Then all these houses have come in an accident? Everything is created by man. How you can say accident? This is their foolishness. Nothing happens accidentally. If there is accident, then how we are walking this? There is a huge water. By accident, immediately it can drown us. If accident is so prominent, then one should be conscious that by accident the whole Hawaii Island can be... It can be done. Why it is not being happened if it is accident? Then why you are building so many buildings? You should know, by accident the whole water can... If accident is there, why you are confident that "No, it will not do." Then where is accident?

Bali-mardana: They are thinking that they can control that accident.

Prabhupāda: You are not controlling. There are so many happenings, that big waves come, and overflood, and there is earthquake, and everything is finished. So you are not controlling accident, even if we accept accident. Accident is not under your control. That Madhudviṣa was telling: in Darwin there was so big, powerful wind, the motor buses were flying.

Gurukṛpa: I was telling them we should come pick these flowers every day, this jasmine. Nobody is picking.

Prabhupāda: Oh. No, no, they will fine.

Gurukṛpa: No, no, they don't know.

Prabhupāda: What is the use, coming here, spending so much motor oil to steal this?

Gurukṛpa: No, we are doing that anyway. We are doing that anyway. To pick these flowers daily, they are going so many places and being chased away. They would rather see them rot than to give them to us. They don't let us pick. (break)

Prabhupāda: All nonsense. They are professing I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, but they are enemies, one another. So where is their religion? Just see, common sense. Even the animals, amongst themselves, they do not say "Keep out." Sit down together. They sit down actually. The birds, beasts of the same position, they keep together. Birds of the same feather flock... But human being, having, professing so many religions--enemies. This is their civilization. They discover better religion, but enemies to the animal, to the man, everyone. Therefore Bhāgavata religion is meant for persons who are not enemies. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. That is religion. We have come to here from India not as enemy but as friend, to give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is dharma. Although politically they are enemies--India is thinking "America is my enemy," or America is thinking "India is my enemy"--we do not think like that. We go everywhere, take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, be happy. This is our business. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. "Private. Keep out."

Bali-mardana: Their condition is worse than the animals.

Prabhupāda: They have been described as dvīpada-paśuḥ, animals but with special difference: the animals, ordinary animals, they have got four legs, and they have got two legs. Dvīpada paśuḥ. Everything is there. And the Vedic civilization is no "Keep out," but even the enemy comes at your home, you receive him as very good friend. Gṛhaṁ satram api prāptam. "At your home, even your enemy comes, you should receive him in such a way," viśvastam akūto bhayam, "he will forget that you are enemy. He will be so confident, that 'I have come to a friend's house.' " This is Vedic civilization. And the Western civilization: "Beware of dog. Keep out." And actually they fire if you enter. And there is law that if he fires, you cannot stop. Trespassing. Private individually, private nationally, private communally--simply private. And when death will come, "No, sir. Keep out." "No keep out. Why you are here? I will keep it out. I will now keep it out." Then what you will do? When Kṛṣṇa will come and say, "I will keep it out now," what you will do? You have to go, go out. Finished, all "Keep out," "Private," everything finished.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 7, 1975, Honolulu                                                             396471

Devotee: I was thinking if you would like to stay here for Ratha-yatra we can make it big Ratha-yatra here.

Prabhupāda: Ratha-yatra?

Devotee: Yes. (break) ...different places, you like to stay here in this nice place, you can translate. Everyone wants you to stay here. I heard one of your letters quoted in Śrī Govinda's letter that you like Ratha-yatra very much. So I think you would like to go somewhere. So if we can have it here, you can attend here.

Prabhupāda: What he is doing?

Śrutakīrti: Cleaning his fishing net. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...ratha?

Devotee: We can build it. We have few carpenters here, four or five carpenters. We can build it. (break)

Prabhupāda: If you can build it, do it. I may be here or may not be here, but you observe the Ratha-yatra. (break) ...trying to make Ratha-yatra in Kurukṣetra. That is the origin of Ratha-yatra. (break) It is light?

Devotee: Light. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...introduce in India two places: one at Kurukṣetra, one at Bhubanesvara. Ratha-yatra.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 10, 1975, Honolulu                                                           396855

Śrutakīrti: ...talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it...

Prabhupāda: The land is there.

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Land is... Just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava.

Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family?

Prabhupāda: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe. This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. (break)

Paramahaṁsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmatam, śrīmatāṁ śucīnāṁ.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So śrīmatāṁ, you can get here. Śrīmatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family... But śrīmatāṁ and śucīnāṁ. So if you are creating so many brāhmaṇas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brāhmaṇa family here also. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        397203

Ambarīṣa: I heard once that human beings in the modes of goodness were coming from the cow family or from the cows mostly? If there are so many cows being killed, why aren't there more people in the modes of goodness?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Now, after the... There are three sources: cow, monkey, and lion. This is the last animal life.

Siddha-svarūpa: Okay, now park here.

Prabhupāda: Why not go a little...

Siddha-svarūpa: There's a beach park right up there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, beach park. Oh, you have to stop.

Siddha-svarūpa: The... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...cow which is killed, that does not get immediately human life because he is untimely killed.

Ambarīṣa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable. (break)

397260

Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. (break)

These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brāhmaṇas, guided by the brāhmaṇas, and they would do nicely. (break) ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 16, 1975, Honolulu                                                           397389

Devotee (1): Yes, we have jackfruit. Big fruit.

Bali-mardana: They do not know how to eat it mostly.

Prabhupāda: Bring. I shall show you. (laughter) Yes.

Bali-mardana: I have seen them selling sometime in private market, but I don't know if we can get it in the public market.

Devotee (1): I've never seen it in a public market.

Bali-mardana: They do... (break) ...sell it. (break)

Prabhupāda: You can have some jackfruit tree.

Devotee (1): On the land, on the property. Okay.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) ...nutritive and very sweet.

Devotee (1): Very sweet.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. When it is ripe, it is very sweet. And when it is not ripe, it is called "vegetable meat."

Devotee: "Tree goat."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...prepare, it is better than meat.

Devotee (1): (break) ...the seeds.

Prabhupāda: Yes, big, big seeds. That is also very digestive. If you make it powder, it acts like, what is called, pancreas.

Bali-mardana: I think you once told a story about an Englishman who wanted to taste jackfruit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...tree, jam. It is berry, but blue.

Devotee (1): They call it java plum. It's a very... It's bitter fruit? Is it very bitter?

Prabhupāda: Not bitter. It is sour, little sour.

Siddha-svarūpa: They makes a blue stain?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got?

Siddha-svarūpa: Many here, yes.

Prabhupāda: That's very good. That is very good for diabetic patient.

Devotee (1): Should we plant one on the land too?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) It is called...

Devotee (2): Kalajam?

Prabhupāda: Kalajam, yes. (break)... is good medicine for diabetes. (break) ...houses are all fire-proof, eh?

 

...their own food, it takes working eight hours for three months. So three months, if they work hard--hard means eight hours, not more than--then the whole year's provision is there.

 

So their attraction has to be changed…There are also the trees, animals, the river, the fruits, the flowers, the father, the mother, the beloved girls, beloved boys, sporting among the cowherd boys, going to the forest, the cows and calves, everything. So that attraction is required.

That is the modern civilization. They are avoiding cow dung and associating dog stool. (laughs) This is modern... Cow dung is so beneficial. That they are avoiding. And they are associating dog stool.

 

One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas.

 

This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaiṣṇava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahmā who is not a devotee." So this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is very accurate.

 

That means one has to come to the platform of brāhmaṇa. Then he can enter into devotional service. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. In that brāhminical state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God.

 

Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault.

 

Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, that cow should be protected because it is a very, very, important animal… Rather, old mother is given more protection.

 

And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love.

 

We must be hypnotized. If we do not become hypnotized by Kṛṣṇa, then we must be hypnotized by this television and other.

                                                               Thing is that people are working so hard day and night for these temporary years, and less than that laboring they can go to back to home, back to Godhead. Little labor.

So you have to constantly poke them.

 

That is Vedic civilization, paropakāra, not to exploit others.

 

My problem is eating, sleeping, mating, so I can arrange for these things very easily. Anywhere, I till the ground and get some food. I keep some cows and I have got land, then my whole economic question is solved.

 

This is the Vedic system, that if I grow something, first of all twenty-five percent to the king, then to the temple, to the brāhmaṇas, to the poor. And then balance, I shall take… When there was no trade, you grow your own food and distribute freely.

 

Provided you engage them for Kṛṣṇa's service. Otherwise the lakṣmī will kill you....householders can be engaged, not anyone else.

 

These brāhmaṇas, they will not take part in politics, but those who are politicians, administrators, they should take advice from these first-class men, how to rule, how to control, what is the ideal.

 

At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

 

And if you save America, means you save the whole world because others are following America. So you can do it very easily. That is my appeal to the authorities of the American administration. But I do not want anything. For your countrymen, for your misguided youthful generation, you have to do it. That is my request. Otherwise there is no other way.

 

So invite all the young men to come and live with us for some time, and simply chanting, dancing, and give them prasādam. And if they like, they can read the books. Give this chance.…Then you do this. Do this. This is the only means to save. Otherwise, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other second alternative.

Common man would be very glad to live in a cottage, and a small garden for growing vegetables, fruits, small lake, that's all. Not wasting time for big, big buildings, big, big... What is called, amenities?

 

So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life…Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently.

 

But cows should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the western country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war, crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more and more.

Jayatīrtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action… Mūòha janmani janmani. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life."

 

You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profit--why? Because your mind has been attached to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise what business you have got to work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without any remuneration?

 

We are good advisor. Now, the government is the executor. So if they take our advice and execute it, then things will be done nicely.

 

But my proposal is that unless one is strictly follower of the principles, his preaching will not be effective. That is my charge.

 

Our knowledge in spiritual life and your help, material opulence, combined together, there will be great change in the whole world. Cooperate with us. There is no loss on your part, but there is great benefit to the whole world.

 

...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. (break) ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence--everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice.

 

You are very good driver, but if you are a blind man, then how you will drive? You will create disaster.

 

It is already sufficient. You are misusing that. Sufficient land, sufficient intelligence. Everything is sufficient. They are misusing.

 

They are leading the whole civilization. If they are convinced, it will be great benefit to the human race.

 

First of all he must know what to preach. If he does not know what to preach, what he will preach?

 

These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body--the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs--all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

 

Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.

                                                             The leader--formerly it was monarchy--the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME FOURTEEN

Morning Walk                             June 18, 1975 (and June 19, 1975), Honolulu                                            397561

Prabhupāda: ...their own food, it takes working eight hours for three months. So three months, if they work hard--hard means eight hours, not more than--then the whole year's provision is there.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working.

Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs?

Siddha-svarūpa: Actually the Chinese are attempting artificially to keep the people...

Prabhupāda: But they do not know that where is the defect. Defect is that everyone has got some attraction. Somebody has attraction for his personal self. Somebody has got attraction for wife, children, family, then attraction for society. In this way they talk of many things. They have come to attraction of humanity. They are all nonsense. The attraction is for sense gratification under different names only. My attraction for family is not for their benefit. By my sense gratification the family members help me, therefore I am attracted. The wife gives me pleasure; therefore I like wife. The wife also likes husband because husband gives pleasure. Otherwise, there is no attraction. As soon as the husband and wife fails to give pleasure, divorce. The son goes out. The daughter goes out. So everyone is prone to some attraction. So if you keep them in the material attraction, then you can change the name; the disease will continue. That is the difficulty. You can change the name from this ism to that ism but every ism is material. Mūòhā nābhijānāti. That is also... "The mūòhā, these rascal, they do not know mām, Me, Kṛṣṇa," param avyayam, "inexhaustible pleasure." Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure. In the Vṛndāvana there is sporting. There is association with young girls, father, mother. Everything is exactly like this. And in any circumstance they are happy. It is not that in Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa is a sannyāsī. He cannot see the face of woman. It is not like that. (chuckles) But because it is spiritual, it is all-attractive. There are also the trees, animals, the river, the fruits, the flowers, the father, the mother, the beloved girls, beloved boys, sporting among the cowherd boys, going to the forest, the cows and calves, everything. So that attraction is required. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are thinking, "Again attraction like this? So make it zero, no attraction. Become zero." So their philosophy is zero philosophy. That is also no information of the spiritual world, Buddha philosophy and Māyāvāda philosophy, śūnyavādī, nirviśeṣa, without varieties or zero. Without varieties means zero. So two philosophers. But therefore they invent: "Anything is all right." They invent. After all, they want zeroism. (break) ...pārtha yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. (break) ...one increases the attraction for Kṛṣṇa, they will never be happy. (break) ...simply changing attraction on the material platform under different names. That will be failure. (break) Dr. Wolfe is missing that evolution?

Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Wolfe? Is he missing the evolution?

Prabhupāda: He was speaking biological?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, I think he was not understanding it so well.

Prabhupāda: Means his understanding, that biological, not ours.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he's thinking biological evolution instead of transmigration of the soul. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...go-kharaḥ. Anything evolving on the bodily concept of life, he remains an animal. That is the defect of the western philosophy. (break) ...philosophy, the dog's tail. He is always this way, material way. (break)

(yasyātma) buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-idya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijïeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

Go means cow; kharaḥ means ass. (break) ...also nowadays it has become a fashion to keep dog.

Bali-mardana: Yes, and to put stool on the sidewalk. Wherever there is dogs, there is stool all over the sidewalk.

Prabhupāda: That is the modern civilization. They are avoiding cow dung and associating dog stool. (laughs) This is modern... Cow dung is so beneficial. That they are avoiding. And they are associating dog stool. The dog mentality. The master and the servant, and the, er, dog, both of them watching. The master writes by signboard. What is that? "Keep away. Private property." And the animal also making, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Both of them are dogs. He is making "Gow! Gow!" by signboard, and he is doing it as nature, but both of them are dogs. One is two-legged dog, another is four-legged dog.

 

Garden Conversation                                    Los Angeles, June 22, 1975                                                       398000

Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move even. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard and they are eating only a glass of tea and this dry loaf.

Bahulāśva:. Toast.

Prabhupāda: Not toast even. (laughter) Dry loaf? Without any taste, without any value. That also in his table. He cannot go to the... He's busy working. So this is ass. He does not think that "I am working so hard, I am earning so much money. What benefit I am taking? A glass of tea and a loaf? For this I am working so hard? I can get this without any work. Anyone will offer me this glass of tea and loaf. Why I am working so hard?" That sense he hasn't got. Therefore he is ass. Everyone you will see. They are working so hard, they have no time. But what they are enjoying? They are not enjoying even more than ordinary man. But he has no sense, "So for this much benefit I am working so hard?" Therefore he is an ass. A philosopher at least thinks that "Why shall I work so hard for this, only a glass of...?" So therefore he is a little better than these karmīs. Karmī, jïānī. And they are restless because they are falsely thinking that they will get some benefit. They have some aspiration, ambition for getting some benefit. The karmīs they are trying that "I will have so much bank balance, 300,000,000's." He is satisfied to see the bank balance. Although bank balance will not go with him, but he is happy by seeing that "I have got so much bank balance." So they want bank balance only, not enjoyable life. They do not enjoy life. They want to see that "I have so much bank balance, such a high building. I possess this much." They are satisfied. That is not satisfaction. He will never be satisfied. He will want more, more, more. So the karmī has got some demand in his heart. And the jïānī, although they are little advanced more than the karmīs, but they have also demand, that "I shall become merged into the existence of the Supreme." Brahma-li(?). That is also demand. The yogis, they want to show some magic power and get popularity. So they have also demand. Therefore all these people who have got demands, they cannot be happy. The bhaktas they have no demand, and therefore they are happy. They have no demand. Although the bhaktas are meant for going back to home, back to Godhead, but they don't care for it. "Whether I shall go back to home, back to Godhead, it doesn't matter. I must serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all." That is bhakta. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: no other desire. They want to see Kṛṣṇa happy. That's all. If Kṛṣṇa is happy, they are happy, bas. They remain in the hell, it doesn't matter. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati. Those who are devotees, they are not afraid of going to hell. They are prepared going to hell, "All right, I shall go to hell and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. I want to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I can do it anywhere. I can do it in this corner. I can do in this building. I can do it in the airplane. I can do it in the hell. I can do it India. I can do it in Los Angeles, anywhere. It doesn't matter what I am or what is my position. I may simply go on chanting. That's all." This is devotee. Therefore he's happy. So happiness is meant for the devotees, not, neither for the karmīs, for the jïānīs, or the yogis. It is the property of the devotees. Just like these devotees are chanting very happily. They are not expecting anything. They are happy by chanting. That's all. But Kṛṣṇa is unhappy if his devotees are not properly maintained. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. You have got Bhagavad-gītā?

teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ

yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham

Find out, teṣaṁ nityābhiyuktanam.

 

ananyāś cintayanto māṁ

ye janāḥ paryupāsate

teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ

yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham

Ananyāś cintaya.

Upendra: Ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ paryupāsate, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣem...

Prabhupāda: Yoga-kṣemam. Yes, that's all right, yoga-kṣemam. Read.

Upendra: (reads entire translation and purport of Bhagavad-gītā, 9.22)

Prabhupāda: But that requires faith. One who does not know what is God and what is protection, how he can take to it? He depends on his own energy. That is karmīs. He wants to happy by his own energy not only in this life but also next life, by acting very piously, wants to be promoted in the heavenly planets. That is fact. One can go. But that is on account of his own labor. But here the bhaktas, they are taken care of, the Supreme Lord. So just like child. He doesn't care how he will live comfortably. But the father takes care. That is the position of bhakta. The karmīs, they are taking care of themselves. But the devotees, they are taken care of by the Supreme. That is difference. What is that?

Jayatīrtha: This is the preliminary outline for the college course that Dr. Judah is going to be helping us with in Berkeley. This describes the basic purposes of the college and describes some of the courses that we'll be offering.

Prabhupāda: Our books?

Jayatīrtha: Yes, there's a course in each book.

Bahulāśva: This is what Dr. Judah belongs to, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bahulāśva: This is a union of various theological schools. So now in Berkeley we have this very nice building, and we can become a member of this Graduate Theological Union. I have been working with Dr. Judah for about one year, and we've talked about this before. And he said that he will sponsor us.

Prabhupāda: So I shall take it?

Bahulāśva: Yes, he said that he will sponsor us in this union, and then our devotees can study just your books. Maybe they must take an English course, and that would be all we couldn't offer. Then everything else, they can study from your books.

Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if they read my books, they will be benefited. There is no doubt about it.

Bahulāśva: Yes. Then they can get a degree recognized by the state of California so they can teach in universities all over the whole country.

Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are some questions about exactly how to do this college. We will be licensed by the state of California, that is no problem. We can get a license immediately.

Prabhupāda: Get it.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Get it, and the, what is called, syllabus, that we shall give. We have got so many books. We shall select this book for graduate, this book for post-graduate, and these books for Ph.D.'s.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Even you have different levels. Like they can undergraduately study Bhagavad-gītā, but in graduate they can study it more intensely, like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in general course they select some passages from some books. So we can do that.

Bahulāśva: Yes. We have laid out all your books in this style, just like at a college catalogue. This is all your literatures and then different courses are given there, what subject matter will be covered.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall make a program, and it may be approved by the professors, and then we will let them study.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's some questions here.

Prabhupāda: And there should be one practical examination, not only theoretical, but practical. This will be the chanting and following the regulative principles. (laughter) Otherwise it will not be successful. It will be successful. It will take some time. But if they take help of this practical life it will be very easily successful.

Bahulāśva: Not just reading the books but there also must be chanting and following the regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered. So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question. So they are imitating the hog's life, all the human being. This is the defect. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. Working so hard day and night, and only sex, that's all. This is life's enjoyment? This is a hog's life. And what else they have got happiness? We challenge them, "Except this happiness of sex, what other happiness you have got?" There is no answer. So this is being done by the hogs. Whole day and night they are searching after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon he gets the stool and they have sex, that's all. Is that civilization, hog's life? And what is civilization? That is tapo divyam: "Just undergo austerities for realizing God." That is civilization. Work very hard similarly, but for Kṛṣṇa and not for imitating the hogs. Now, why I should be interested in for God realization? Yes, you should be. You must be. Why? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva: "By becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your existentional constitution will be purified." What is that purification? Purīfication means because you are now impure, you are subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore you require treatment to cure this disease. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. And if you cure this disease, then--you are after happiness--you will get transcendental bliss and enjoy it eternally. This is human life. Everything is discussed in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. Anantam means unlimited. You are searching after happiness, but this is limited. Even if you enjoy sex life, that is also limited for a few moments. But anantam. That is... You will enjoy it eternally. Just Kṛṣṇa is dancing with the gopīs. He is enjoying eternally. So you can join with Him. That information we are giving. Just imagine what a valuable service we are rendering. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva. Your existence is impure. Therefore you are undergoing the tribulation of birth, death, old age, and disease. But they are not making any research how to stop. Nobody wants to die. Why he is dying? Where is the solution? Can the psychologists give any solution, that "You think in this way"? No. That we are giving: "Think of Kṛṣṇa and you will become free."

Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Yes.

Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.

 

Morning Walk                                             June 23, 1975, Los Angeles                                                         398398

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want your direction on how to actually do it.

Prabhupāda: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?

Bahulāśva: Uh huh.

Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the particular, specific qualification of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, that's why they want us to join.

Prabhupāda: But we cannot join like that way.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, no. On our own standards.

Bahulāśva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.

Bahulāśva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.

Prabhupāda: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. (break) ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guṇā. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brāhmaṇas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.

Bahulāśva: Two āratiks a day, sixteen rounds--these would be also course requirements.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yājan yajan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yājan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra?

 

apavitraḥ pavitro vā

sarvāvasthaṁ gato 'pi vā

yaḥ smaret puṇòarīkākṣaṁ

sa bahyābhyāntara-śuciḥ

Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muciḥ. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-hitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brāhmaṇa means having a two cents thread. Not that brāhmaṇa. Vipratve sūtram eva ca. "To become a brāhmaṇa, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brāhmaṇa: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brāhmaṇa. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. (break) ...giving sacred thread on the Pāïcarātriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire--he wants to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness--so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.

Brahmānanda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: If that stops...

Prabhupāda: Then it is finished.

Bahulāśva: That verse is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Which verse?

Bahulāśva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guṇa. And smoke means rajo-guṇa, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guṇa. So you have to go still above. That is called śuddha-sattva-guṇa. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upāsate. That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again māyā. There are two things: Kṛṣṇa and māyā. If Kṛṣṇa fire is extinguished, then māyā, ignorance, darkness. Two things.

kṛṣṇa-bhuliyā-jīva bhoga-vāïchā kare

pāśate māyāra tare jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa, then māyā is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. māyā, Kṛṣṇa. If you are not in Kṛṣṇa, then you are in māyā. And if you are in Kṛṣṇa, there is no māyā. Yāhān kṛṣṇa, sūrya-tāhān, nāhi māyāra adhikāra. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Kṛṣṇa, there is no nescience."

kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama, māyā andhakāra,

yāhān kṛṣṇa tāhān nāhi māyāra adhikāra

You understand Bengali?

Harikeśa: I know that verse.

Prabhupāda: That's... You know it eternally?

Harikeśa: I hope so.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that māyāra nāhi adhikāra, no more jurisdiction of māyā. That is perfect.

Bahulāśva: We must keep very high standards.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harer nāma. There is also, vegetable.

Revatīnandana: Seaweed.

                                                                                                                                    

 

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Prabhupāda: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. (break) ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?

Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).

Brahmānanda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?

Bahulāśva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Vedic science.

Dharmādhyakṣa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.

Prabhupāda: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.

Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!

Nalinī-kantha: Then they can work in the field.

Prabhupāda: All impractical.

Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.

Prabhupāda: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... (break) Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā. "One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jïānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Anyone who does not submit to Kṛṣṇa, he is useless, duṣkṛtinaḥ, mūòhaḥ, narādhamāḥ. So why we shall give respect to the narādhamas, duṣkṛtinas, mūòhās, māyayāpahṛta-jïānā? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Kṛṣṇa conscious person.

vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura

bhūliya janaha more

"Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Öhākura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."

vaiṣṇava thakura, tomāra kukura

bhūliya janaha more

Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaiṣṇava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaiṣṇava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's, janmaobi jadi icchā to hara, kīṭa-janma hau jaha das bhakta tuìhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kīṭa-janma hau jaha das tuìhara. This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaiṣṇava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahmā who is not a devotee." So this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaiṣṇava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Vaiṣṇava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Kṛṣṇa, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.

Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.

Prabhupāda: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?

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janmana jāyate śūdraḥ

saìskarād bhaved dvijaḥ

veda-pathad bhaved vipro

brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ

These are the different stages. Everyone is born śūdra. Śūdra means the life of lamentation. He does something and laments. This is śūdra. He does not know how to perform, but by whims he does something and laments later on. This is śūdra. And brāhmaṇa means na śocati na kāìkṣati. He never laments, neither hankers. That is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Find out this verse, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati.

Jayatīrtha: 18.54. I should read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāìkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param

"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me."

Prabhupāda: That means one has to come to the platform of brāhmaṇa. Then he can enter into devotional service. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. In that brāhminical state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God. That is samaḥ, equality. He does not see like this, that the human being has soul and the cow has not soul. He does not see like that. He sees the cow has soul, the ant has soul, the elephant has soul, the tree has soul, the human being has soul. That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. By ignorance he thinks that "The tree has no soul; the cow has no soul; the animal has no soul; simply we have got soul." That is ignorance, base quality. But when you come to the pureness of goodness, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, this qualification will arise. So a devotee is not willing to kill even an ant because he knows that "He is also soul, part and parcel. By his karma, he has become ant, I have become a human being. So I am the same soul; he is the same soul. He is different body. He is suffering in that way. I have got different body. I am also suffering, but I am thinking I am enjoying." That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. What is the meaning, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu?

Jayatīrtha: Samaḥ means equally disposed; sarveṣu means all; bhūteṣu means living entity. "He is equally disposed to every living entity."

Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

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Prabhupāda: That means they have created thieves and rogues. Therefore they are suspicious. Nowadays in the airport, everyone is searched. Then it is now taken for granted that all of them are cheats. So what is the value of this education if all of them are cheats? There is no discrimination, "Now, here is a educated professor, Dr. Ph.D., he cannot be searched." No, he will be also searched--because, "You may be Ph.D., but we know you are a cheat." (laughter) Is not the conclusion? Will he be excused if he says, "Oh, I am Ph.D." No, you must be searched. "You may be Ph.D., but you are a cheat." This is education. So what is the value of this education? And according to Vedic civilization, as soon as one is a brāhmaṇa, he is not within the jurisdiction of administration, immediately. The government has no right to check in his activities. Because he knows he is a brāhmaṇa. Four person, four or five, they are excused from the jurisdiction of law. The first is brāhmaṇa, the second is cow, the third is woman, and the fourth is old man, and fifth is the child. These five persons are not in the jurisdiction of law. No. Just like we have got practical. If a child comes and takes my spectacle away, he is not criminal. Everyone knows. But if a man takes my spectacle, then he is criminal. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa is never criminal. A cow is never criminal. These are the Vedic civilization. Woman, woman is also excused. No punishment for woman.

Jayatīrtha: Now the crime rate amongst the women is...

Prabhupāda: Now they have been trained up. What can be done? Woman is not trained up now to become a chaste wife. That is the defect of the civilization. Formerly, woman was trained up only to become, remain faithful to his husband, that's all. Nari-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ: "Woman's beauty is how she is faithful to her husband." That's all. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam: "A black man or ugly man, if he is educated, that is his beauty." Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ. Kokila, the cuckoo is just like a crow, but everyone likes because his voice is so sweet. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam nari-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. Like that, he has given a list. These are the beauty. If a woman is trained up not to talk with any other man except her husband, that is her beauty. That enhances the beauty and prestige. This is Vedic knowledge.

Jayatīrtha: In today's society that standard is unimaginable.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore there is no adjustment. Everyone is suffering in spite of so-called education. Nobody is happy.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the professor was also saying that Kant had a theistic viewpoint also. He believed that there was God and what other things were you saying?

John Mize: The nature of God? Kant's view?

Bahulāśva: Kant's philosophy.

John Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve it's moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa, to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization.

Jayatīrtha: Does he make any description of God? Any explanation?

John Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence and powerful.

Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry.

John Mize: Is...?

Prabhupāda: To become angry is also qualification of God.

John Mize: I don't understand what you last said. To be angry is...

Bahulāśva: A quality of God. To become angry is a quality of God.

Prabhupāda: Because unless there is anger in God, how there is anger in me? But we, as we misuse our independence, we misuse our anger. And God does not misuse his independence; He does not misuse His anger. But the anger quality is there. Otherwise, how I have got anger? This is the Vedānta philosophy. Janmādyasya yataḥ: "Everything is emanating from the Supreme." So if the anger is there, it must be there.

John Mize: And jealousy?

Prabhupāda: Everything.

John Mize: It's difficult to imagine Kṛṣṇa jealous.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

John Mize: What could He possibly envy or be jealous of?

Prabhupāda: You can say whatever thing, but anger, all, whatever you have got, God has got in bigger quantity and perfect quantity. That is the conception of God, without any, what is called?

John Mize: Imperfection?

Prabhupāda: Imperfection, yes.

John Mize: I hope He doesn't have my ignorance in such a mass.

Dharmādhyakṣa: But ignorance is not a positive existence.

John Mize: And His anger or jealousy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes anger acts. If you fight, if you do not be angry, you cannot fight.

Jayatīrtha: In the Kṛṣṇa Book there are so many stories of Kṛṣṇa's anger or... Once, when His mother was (indistinct) a cooking pot...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: Kṛṣṇa's activities are always for the good. So even when He becomes angry...

Prabhupāda: That is also...

John Mize: Righteous anger.

Bahulāśva: Yes, spiritual anger.

Dharmādhyakṣa: It's His mercy. So if Kṛṣṇa gets angry at us, that's actually...

Prabhupāda: Everything has got proper use. In the material condition we do not know that. Therefore Narottama dāsa Öhākura has made a list, how to use your, this anger, greediness, like that. He says, kamaḥ kṛṣṇa-karmārpaṇe. We are lusty for doing something for our sense gratification. The same desire, same propensity, can be utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like we are writing books, keeping night, whole night. So for an old man like me, it is tedious. But we are doing for Kṛṣṇa. So similarly, another author may be writing whole night for some sex literature. So the labor for producing a sex literature and the labor for producing a Bhāgavata is the same. It may be same ambition that "Let me become a big author. My name will be very popular." But one thing is being done for Kṛṣṇa; one thing is being done for sense gratification. So that propensity of becoming a reputed author or the labor, this, same, but it is being utilized for different purposes. Similarly, you take anything, if you use it for... Just like Hanumān. He became angry upon Rāvaṇa. He set fire in his city, destroyed the whole city. He showed his anger, but not for his personal sense gratification. He wanted to serve Lord Rāma. Sītā was stolen by him, so there was arrangement for fighting, and he did the same thing, set fire. To set fire in your home or your country, it is not good, but he did it for satisfaction of Lord Rāmacandra. So everything has its proper use when it is utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are living beings. We are conscious. We cannot give up anything, but we are being trained up how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So give him some prasāda.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda has written one book--actually it will be two books, this thick--on all the different philosophers. Prabhupāda is discussing their philosophy in relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness and where their weak points are. This book will be published soon?

Prabhupāda: The publisher is there.

Jayatīrtha: As soon as possible.

Bahulāśva: That will be very interesting.

John Mize: I look forward to seeing it.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you speak about Kant's philosophy in that book also? Yes? He is very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kant is very popular. I was also a student of philosophy. In my student life my professors were all Europeans. I was student of Scottish Church's College in Calcutta. So one professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was our professor for psychology, metaphysics. Later on, he became the vice-chancellor of Calcutta University. A very nice gentleman.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Mize finds that he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa a little in the shower now. When he takes a shower, he chants a little.

Prabhupāda: One press reporter in the Berkeley University in the beginning, he wrote his article and he wrote that after hearing this Hare Kṛṣṇa for a few minutes, I came home chanting all the road, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." He gave this report.

Dharmādhyakṣa: I think many scholars have a hard time realizing how just by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is so nice and so easy.

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...that the highest philosophical realization can come from chanting.

John Mize: Thank you.

Devotee: Mrs. Salim has given these flowers and clock.

Jayatīrtha: That gentleman who came over last night, he has brought this present.

Prabhupāda: Take. (eating)

Dr. Mize: This is delicious.

Prabhupāda: Now you can take. Kṛṣṇa has given us so many nice things. Why should we kill the poor animals? That's not good. Because na samaḥ, there is no such vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He is not a brāhmaṇa. He is giving the dog a bad name and hang it. Animal has no soul. What is this? Animal has no soul?

Bahulāśva: Sometimes they argue that we're killing the vegetables.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Vegetable has also life but we are not killing. When you pluck out the flower, the tree is not killed. When you take a fruit, the tree is not killed. When you take grains, automatically they die. Then you take the grains. There is no question of killing. But even it is killing, it is not as murderous as killing a cow. Why the state hangs a man when he kills a man? The man can plead that "So many animals are being killed every day. If I kill one man, what is the wrong there?" The punishment is that "You have killed one important animal." Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, that cow should be protected because it is a very, very, important animal. It does not say, "Other animal." Or does not say, "All animals." He said, "Cows," because important. It's supplying you milk, so important food. She is your mother and you are killing mother? Is that your civilization? Killing mother? "Mother is old, and mother is no more supplying milk. Kill." Is there any such sanction? Rather, old mother is given more protection. And what is this civilization, killing the mother? In the morning we require milk immediately, and the mother cow is supplying. And when she cannot supply, kill her. What is this philosophy?

Bahulāśva: I was lecturing in the University of Marin in San Francisco. So I was explaining that, and one man said, "This is just your sentiment. You just have some sentiment." So I asked him if he had a dog. And he said, "Yes." So I said that "When your dog becomes old, will you kill it?" So he said, "No, why shall I kill it. It's a good dog." So...

Prabhupāda: Dog is good; cow is bad. Dog is creating always nasty things, and cow is so pure, even the stool is pure, and she has to be killed.

John Mize: The question has been asked about the unfertilized eggs, why they should not be eaten.

Prabhupāda: Unfertilized, but there is potency of fertilization. You check the progress of one living entity coming out of it.

John Mize: Once the egg is laid, there is no chance for it to be fertilized.

Prabhupāda: No, egg is... The living entity is already there. Just like a woman is pregnant means the living entity is already there. So as soon as there is egg, the living entity is already there. It is taking time to come out. Just in the womb of the mother, the child is taking time to grow and become fit to come out.

John Mize: True, but the egg in the mother has been fertilized by the male sperm, whereas the egg laid by a chicken was not fertilized...

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. They have got that potency. There are four kinds of birth: from the egg, from the vegetable, from fermentation, and from embryo. So from any of these four kinds of sources the living entity come out. Aṇòa-ja, udbij-ja, jaraya-ja, and sveda-ja, the Sanskrit name. Sveda-ja, simply by perspiration. Just like unclean bed they produce bugs. The man gets perspiration, bad perspiration, and in contact with air, with this perspiration, the living entity comes. That is bug. This is called sveda-ja, "out of perspiration." Your coat, shirt, if you don't cleanse, or your body is unclean, you will find so many moths within the shirt. How it is coming? From the perspiration, bad perspiration, bad smell. Not that every time the male female combination required. There are other sources also.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is called spontaneous generation and scientists have so-called proven that that cannot occur. It's called a folk myth or something like this, folklore, that birth can take place without the male and female union.

Prabhupāda: No. How it is coming from the bed, unclean bed. How it is coming the grass? They are also living entity. The seeds are already there. They are like egg. And as soon as there is watering then it is fructified and it comes. Similarly, the egg..., fermentation, what is called, fermentation?

John Mize: Fertilization.

Prabhupāda: Fertilization. Not fertilize. The birds sit on the egg.

John Mize: Incubation.

Prabhupāda: Incubation, yes. They are artificially incubating, and the chickens are coming from the egg.

John Mize: If it's been fertilized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not fertilized. They are keeping in certain temperature.

John Mize: It has to have both, fertilization and incubation.

Prabhupāda: Both?

John Mize: Both. The egg cannot become a chicken unless it has been fertilized.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that... It is coming out of that egg, so there is life. We do not recommend prohibition of eggs because living entity. It is not very good food. It agitates the senses. Therefore we prohibit.

                                                                                                                                                                        398968

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand this. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am expanded by My energy everywhere." So the everywhere how you can go? You love Kṛṣṇa, and your love will go everywhere. You pay tax to the government, and the tax is distributed in so many departments. So it is not your business to go every department and pay tax. Pay to the treasury of the government; it will be distributed. This is intelligence. And if you say that "Why shall I pay to the treasury house? I shall pay the this department, that department, that department, that department," you can go on, but it will never be sufficient, neither complete. So you may love humanity, but because you do not love Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not love the cows; you send them to slaughterhouse. So your love will remain defective. It will never be complete. And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love.

 

Morning Walk                                              June 26, 1975, Los Angeles                                                        399426

Prabhupāda: ...of God means first of all we must know who is God. This is the first. Then, what is this material world and what is my relationship with this material world and God. This is science of God. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...you wanted the colleges named the Vedic Theological College?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. Don't come very near. (break) ...that the college teachers and students must be brāhmaṇa, not śūdras. Śūdras will not be able to understand the science of God. What was the... Now, Dr... What is his name?

Bahulāśva: Last night?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: Dr. Mize.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Mize? So what does he say?

Bahulāśva: He said that he could give up the greed, but the lust was a very hard one for him to give up.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Dharmadhyaksa: He wanted to become more unselfish, but he didn't know how he could give up lust.

Prabhupāda: No, that can be done. If you increase your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, love for Kṛṣṇa, then you will forget this lust.

Dharmadyaksa: That's what we told him, that he must chant.

Prabhupāda: That is the only. That is the only. There is no other second way. (break) ...conquer over lust, one has to take shelter of Madana-mohana. Madana means lust, Cupid, and Kṛṣṇa is Madana-mohana. He can enchant the Cupid also. (break) ...Öhākura, young man. At dead of night the prostitute came. How he restrained? That is... One who has realized Madana-mohana, for him these things are nothing, no enchantment. (break)

Dharmadyaksa: ...impressed with Your Divine Grace's energy and ability to work so much.

Prabhupāda: Why you do not say, "This is spiritual energy"? Yes. (break) ...got so many dogs nonsense. And it is solved. Just see. And he has brought dozens of... (break)

Jayatīrtha: ...life will be empty.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that is a fact. No family, no children, so they must have some. The dog is their children, family. That is the attraction for..., because mostly they do not have family.

Jayatīrtha: They kill the family before they're born.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Jayatīrtha: And then, instead they get dogs.

Prabhupāda: There must be something to repose my love. So they have no family, no Kṛṣṇa. So naturally keep dog. (break) ...must be there, to love. That is my tendency, but if I have nothing, then I will have to catch the dog. What can be done? (break) ...furnish this television. Dog and television and whiskey and cigarette. That's all. (laughter) Is it not? (break) ...in India these things are entering: dog, television. And cigarette, wine, has already entered.

Bahulāśva: This is the degradation. (break)

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Bahulāśva: So much sex, everything you watch.

Prabhupāda: And not only that, horrible scene.

Bahulāśva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Killing and like that.

Dharmadyaksa: They sit hypnotized. They say we are becoming hypnotized by chanting, but actually they are hypnotized by this TV set.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that I have already explained. We must be hypnotized. If we do not become hypnotized by Kṛṣṇa, then we must be hypnotized by this television and other.(break) ...pūrṇimā? No. Full moon, last night? No

 

Room Conversation                                     June 26, 1975, Los Angeles                                                        399652

Prabhupāda: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.

Devotee (1): Well, who is authorized?

Prabhupāda: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.

Devotee (2): Then what does it mean to become disciple?

Prabhupāda: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.

Devotee (2): We do like it.

Prabhupāda: You have already given up.

Devotee (2): If we didn't like it, we would not come here.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.

Devotee (2): Many of your disciples do.

Prabhupāda: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.

Devotee (2): All right. That is clearing some things up.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): This is what we want to know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Because then that is an unequivocal statement.

Prabhupāda: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.

Devotee (2): What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations.

Prabhupāda: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaiṣṇava.

Devotee (2): To get second initiation.

Devotee (1): Does that mean shaved head?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground.

Devotee (2): Why is that?

Prabhupāda: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why."

Devotee (2): Then that is...

Prabhupāda: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.

Devotee (2): We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupāda. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.

Prabhupāda: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him.

Devotee (1): Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who...

Prabhupāda: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all.

Devotee (2): But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class?

Prabhupāda: So that is their business. That is not your business.

Devotee (2): We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying.

Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.

Devotee (2): Because from you only...

Prabhupāda: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.

Devotee (2): I did not know that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): You never told me that in Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple.

Devotee (2): All right.

Prabhupāda: This is the first condition.

Devotee (1): Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacārī dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the Bhāgavatam when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacārīs, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...?

Prabhupāda: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven.

 

Morning Walk                                              June 27, 1975, Los Angeles                                                        399795

Prabhupāda: What is the position of Bhagavad-gītā? Macmillan, you are not taking supply, so they have stopped?

Jayatīrtha: We've informed them that the..., we want to make the..., because they no longer have it in print, that the abridged edition, we want to break the contract.

Prabhupāda: No, that is already, they have permitted. Anyway, you can...

Jayatīrtha: But as far as the other one is concerned we have a stock on hand.

Prabhupāda: What they are doing?

Brahmānanda: They're picking the papers.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He's earning forty dollars daily?

Jayatīrtha: At least.

Prabhupāda: Just see. For picking up the paper they have to pay so much. (break) (walking:) ...is we want to distribute books vigorously because general public, they have not yet understood what is the importance of this movement; neither they have any knowledge. The general public, maybe with some exception in India, they are simply like cats and dogs. They have no knowledge, that what is the purpose of this life (indistinct) and... Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. That is stated. Pravṛtti means what we should accept, what kind of life we should accept and what kind of life we shall reject. This is their first ignorance. next line? Jagad āhur anīśvaram.

Jayadvaita: Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro...

Prabhupāda: Nāpi cācāro. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro...

Jayadvaita: Na satyaṁ teṣ...

Prabhupāda: Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate. This is the whole population. They do not know... There are big, big nation, big, big philosopher, big, big scientists and all very big, but what kind of life they should live, they do not know. What is the accurate destination of our life, that they do not know. And all humbug, big, big scientist, philosopher, theologist, and so on, so on, politician, sociologist, welfare. But real thing, they are rascal. They do not know which way we have to go. So what is the use of these big, big words? They do not know which way to go. Suppose we are walking. If we go to the this side without knowing that "This is water; we should not go," then what is the use? That is their defect. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro. (chuckles) Śaucam, cleanliness, they do not know, neither behavior. Nāpi cācāro. Jagad āhur anīśvaram; "Oh, there is no God. It has come out out of the sand." This is the whole population. Jagad ahur anīśvaram. Which way we shall go? (break) Therefore we require vigorous propaganda to make these fools to understand what is the real aim of life. That should be our propaganda. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. They have simply calculated, "Now today the bank balance is now three millions dollars, and tomorrow it will be four million." Simply, they say. Idaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. And everyone is proud, "Who is greater than me? Who can understand more than me? I am very great man." Āòhyo mām abhi... What is that? Āòhyo mām, hmm? "I am the richest man. I am the most aristocratic. I have killed so many enemies. Now I shall kill that enemy." Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is their position. The rascal does not know whether he is going to be a dog next life, and if he is going to, he says, "Oh, what is the wrong? I can become dog." This is the position. (break) ...āhur anīśvaram. (break) ...trying to go to the planet, this planet, that planet. Rascal, say... They did not recognize, "Who has made this planet, where I am going?" They are taking credit by going there, but he is not giving any credit to the person or the agent who has made it. Just see. What do you think? That, "I am going there, but who has made it? Who is that person?" "No, it has come out... There was a chunk, and it became plant and then so on." This is their knowledge. And people are accepting, "Oh, great scientist. There was a chunk." Just see. Why don't you get yourself a chunk and it burst into big, big planet? (laughter) Such rascals are governing the whole human society.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have another theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Any theory, they are all rascals, that's all. (laughter) (break) ...arrangement in one planet, it has come accidentally by chunk bursting, and we have to believe them. This is their position. (break) ...this understanding comes automatically when one understands that he is soul, then. And that requires brain. Therefore we are discussing tapasā brahmacaryena. We have to to create brain how to understand it. (break) ...phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavati alpa-medhasām. It is stated, alpa-medhasām, a slight brain substance. Medha, medha what is called, cere... cere...

Harikesa: Cerebral?

Prabhupāda: Cerebrum, yes. So intelligence becomes more more who has got more cerebrum. So psychologically, it is... A very intelligent man has got sixty-four ounce cerebrum. And woman, even she is very intelligent, is not more than thirty-four ounce. Therefore we don't find, amongst women, any big scientist. It is impossible. Don't be angry. (laughter) And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. (break) ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kuntī, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pāṇòavas. The Pāṇòavas lost the game. They were banished, but Kuntī was not banished. But she said, "Then how shall I...? I must go with my sons." Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. So Rāmacandra was ordered by His father, "My dear son, You have to go forest for fourteen years." Sītā was not ordered. But she voluntarily followed. "Where shall I go? You are my husband. You are going to the forest? I shall go to the forest." This is Vedic civilization. And because she went with her husband, the Rāma-Rāvaṇa fight was there. Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. It is said that "When you go to a, foreign country, you don't take woman with you." Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. But she said that "Where shall I remain for fourteen years? I must go with You." So Rāmacandra had to agree. And on account of taking this wife along with Him, there was so much trouble. And the husband is so responsible that... Lord Rāmacandra, He is God. He could create thousands and millions of Sītās, but not for one Sītā He killed the whole family. That is husband. That is the duty of the husband. If wife's a little hair is infringed, he should take steps immediately. That is husband, not that accept wife today and give it up tomorrow. That is not husband. Husband must be very responsible to take care of the wife, and wife must be very chaste to serve the husband. Then family life is all right. (break) ...do not understand that "I am a living entity. I am encaged in this material body, and this material body means subjected to so many miserable condition." That they cannot understand. So my first business is how to be free from this repetition of accepting a material body. That they are not... A temporary life for fifty years or sixty years, they are busy, making very, very, gorgeous arrangement. This is asuric civilization. He does not take it very seriously that "I am encaged in this material body. My first business is how to get out of it and remain in my spiritual body." They get one type of body, and, like cats and dogs, engage, how to keep that body in sense gratification. That's all. (break) ...spiritual education, that "I am spiritual, spirit soul. I am encaged in this body. I want freedom. That is my first business, how to become liberated." No, that question set aside. Now, for the time being, we are walking here, and if there is some misunderstanding, we fight, forgetting that we have come here for walking, say, for half an hour. And why we shall forget our real business? That intelligence is not there. (break) ...India the Indira Gandhi was made as all in all. Now there is a catastrophe. We do not know what is going to happen.

Brahmānanda: They say she is the most powerful woman in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, very powerful. Now she is going to hell, so powerful. She is so powerful, now she is going to hell.

Kāśīrāma: The United Nations has declared this year International Woman's Year so that all the women can gain more liberation from the bondage of being under the supremacy of man.

Prabhupāda: But how to get liberation, not being pregnant?

Kāśīrāma: That's one of the programs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be liberated, not being pregnant. The man will be pregnant equally. (laughter) Where is that liberation? Can they make any resolution, "Now, man has to become pregnant also equally."

Jayatīrtha: The scientists will begin work on that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let these rascals engage in that work, how a man can become pregnant. (laughter) "Yes, we are trying, we shall do in the future." They will say like that, yes. (break) ...there are women police. You know that? So they were guiding... I said that "If somebody captures your hand, then where is your police force?" Any young boy sixteen, seventeen years old can capture any two, three women, and he can control. And where is the police force?

Brahmānanda: They're now making women firemen.

Prabhupāda: Firemen?

Brahmānanda: Yeah. So all the wives and girlfriends of the firemen, they have lodged a protest because they are afraid... Because the firemen, they, often they have nothing to do. So they are afraid that if there are women firemen that the women firemen will steal away the husbands. So they have made a protest. Because practically they have to remain together. They have to live together in the firehouse.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is bondage.

Brahmānanda: Well, they're afraid that there will be illicit activity between the firemen and the firewomen. (laughter)

 

Morning Wak                                                  June 28, 1975, Denver                                                             399873

Prabhupāda: (break) ...you will find today's text. It has given very nice example, that the prostitute changes her dress to attract people. Similarly, we are changing our dress for sense gratification. Yes. (break) Nature, material nature, has been described as the prostitute, and we are trying to become the husband of the prostitute. Has anyone become happy by becoming husband of a prostitute? (laughs) (break) ...Paṇòita has said, duṣṭā bhāryā śāṭhaṁ mitraṁ bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ, sasarpe ca gṛhe vāso mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ. A prostitute wife, duṣṭā bhāryā, and dupli..., what is called, duplicity? One who speaks something and heard something? What is called? Hypocrite.

Brahmānanda: Hypocrisy.

Prabhupāda: "Hypocrite friend and prostitute wife and servant replying, duṣṭā bhāryā śāṭhaṁ mitraṁ bhṛtyaś cottara..., and sasarpe ca gṛhe vāso, and living in a room where there is a snake, mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ, he will die." There is no doubt about it. His life will be spoiled. This is the Cāṇakya Paṇòita's. (break) ...name of this park?

Nitāi: This is City Park. They call it City Park. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...good because it is Indian climate. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Satsvarūpa: It is good...?

Prabhupāda: Because it has got Indian climate.

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. There's a very high altitude. It's a mile high. They call it "the mile high city." Because it's five thousand feet above sea level. It's supposed to be good for health.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...in India up country. Up country, in northern India. It is very good health, Punjab, because up country. (break) ...place Cāṇakya Paṇòita says,

māṭā yasya gṛhe nāsti

bhāryā cāpriya-vādinī

aranyaṁ tena gantavyaṁ

yathāranyaṁ tathā gṛham

A man who hasn't affectionate mother at home, neither very good wife, so he should immediately give up that home and go to the forest because for him it is as good, either you remain in forest

 

Morning Walk                                                 June 29, 1975, Denver                                                            400027

Brahmānanda: Gopal.

Prabhupāda: Mmm. His father is rich man. His father came to see me, yes.

Brahmānanda: From Mathurā.

Prabhupāda: Mathurā, yes. His father, mother... That Sally used to say, "My husband is a lost child of their parents." He is not doing very well. He is getting $800. At that time, maybe $1,000. What is here, eight hundred, thousand dollars? He could have lived very comfortably at his father's care. He is very rich man. (break) (walking:) Thing is that people are working so hard day and night for these temporary years, and less than that laboring they can go to back to home, back to Godhead. Little labor. But they do not know. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva-vratā devān pitèn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtejyā yānti bhū..., mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Just to get a nice car, a nice wife, and a few children by working so hard, bhūtejya, and the same labor, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām, if he devotes for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. And what is wrong there? We have got so many Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees. What is wrong there than these ordinary karmīs? Hmm? Are we unhappy? What do you think?

Brahmatīrtha: No, nice.

Prabhupāda: See? Just see the foolish people. They are working so hard for nothing. Everything will be finished after this death, and he will become a cat and dog or a tree. You see? (break) ...sometimes advocate the materialists.

Kuruśreṣṭha: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even we explain that, and they can seem to understand; still they won't do anything about it.

Prabhupāda: So you have to constantly poke them. These rascals. Just like one man is sleeping. You have to call him constantly, "Mr. Such, Mr. Such, wake up, rascal. You are sleeping. Why?" This is our business.

uttiṣṭhata jagrata prāpya varan nibodhata

That is sung by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura,

kota nidrā jāo māyā-pīśācira kole

"How long you will sleep? You have got this opportunity, human form of life. Now get up."

jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole

This is our mantra: "You rascal, get up. Take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and solve all your problems."

Satsvarūpa: Some people say that if we want to do this, it's all right, but we shouldn't insist and go and preach to them. Everyone has his own way.

Prabhupāda: Because you are human being, you rascal, you animal, you are sleeping, we are just trying to awaken you. Because you are human being. Suppose a boy, a child, is going this side. We are human being. We shall say, "No, no, you go right"? Shall you say that? We shall try to save, "Oh, what you are doing?" That is our business. That is every human being's business, to do good to others. That is human life. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Janma sārthaka kori kara para upakāra. That is human life.

Brahmānanda: Actually, according to law, if someone is in trouble, if he is being attacked by someone, and someone sees this and does not do anything to help him, he can be prosecuted.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: It is his obligation to help someone in trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is humanity. Not that "This man is going to hell. Let him go to hell. I am happy. That's all." That is not humanity. Paropakāra. That is Vedic civilization, paropakāra, not to exploit others.

Devotee (1): A lot of times, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that we are just escaping material life. We're not having jobs...

Prabhupāda: How we are escaping?

Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we don't have jobs and that we should work for...

Prabhupāda: So why shall I... A rich man, does he work? We are rich men. We don't work. You rascal, you have no money. You work. We are rich men. Why shall I work? Any rich man you see, he is not working. He is escaping? What is that? Any rich man who has got money, he is not working. He is engaging all fools and rascals in the factory. So is that, is he escaping?

Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we're just...

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all take one answer. That we are rich men, we are Kṛṣṇa's son. So why shall I work like you, an ass? A ass will work unnecessarily. We are not asses.

Yadubara: Actually, we're more active than ever before.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are rich man's son, Kṛṣṇa's son. Why shall I work? That is the nature. A rich man's son never works. He enjoys. We are dancing and taking nice prasādam. Why shall I work? What do you think? Poor man will work. Rich man, why they will work? He will enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. He is the proprietor of all planets, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa, a rich man's servant. Why shall I work so hard? The ass will work hard, not a human being. And that is the instruction of Rsabhādeva. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. This human life is not meant for working so hard simply for food and sex enjoyment. That is the business of the hogs. The hogs do like that. They work day and night to find out some stool, and as soon as a little strength, he enjoys sex without discrimination, mother, sister, anybody. Is that life? Tell them, "You are working like hogs, and we are living like human being. That is the difference." If somebody does not work like hog, does it mean he is escaping? (laughter) Just see. And the hog is asking to work like hog. Why human being will accept this proposal? Marshall theory. I was student of economics. He says the human nature is, unless he has got some obligation he will not work. That is the beginning of economics. If one has got sufficient to eat, he will not work. When he is obliged to work for some reason, he works hard. That is the economic theory. So nature is... It is not escaping. If I have got sufficient to eat, why shall I work? What is the answer? This is not escaping, it is comfortable life, not to work and get everything, all necessities. That is comfort. And working hard getting the necessities, that is for the hogs and dogs, not for human being.

Devotee (1): They have no faith or trust that this can be done.

Prabhupāda: See us. You rascal, see, open your eyes, see that we have no business. We have no food stocked; still, we are not worried. We do not know what we shall eat in the evening, but still, we are not worried. See factually. We are not worried, "Oh, what shall I eat?" I came here without any subsistence. That I mean I had to work very hard?

Kuruśreṣṭha: I think that if the karmīs tried to keep up with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would probably wear out.

Prabhupāda: The karmīs, they work hard because they are asses. The ass example is given. Just like the picture you have seen, ass?

Brahmānanda: In the movie, yes.

Prabhupāda: There? You see? He is loading so much, and what he is eating? Little grass. So the ass does not know, "The grass is available here. Why shall I work for him?" That is ass. He is working so hard for a few morsel of grass, and the grass is all over the world, but he will take the load. That is ass. My problem is eating, sleeping, mating, so I can arrange for these things very easily. Anywhere, I till the ground and get some food. I keep some cows and I have got land, then my whole economic question is solved. Why shall I make this bambhārambha-bharam udvahato vimūòhān, big, big...? You do it, but why should you forget your real business? That is the defect, that you are so foolish that only for this maintaining body, you have forgotten your real business.

Devotee (1): Not everyone has the opportunity to get some land and some cows, to till the land and grow their food.

Prabhupāda: No opportunity?

Devotee (2): Not enough, Śrīla Prabhupāda, not enough land.

Prabhupāda: Not enough? Let them come, I shall give them. So much land in America. They say "No land"? The all...

                                                                                                                                                                        400102

Prabhupāda: ...no rose here? We don't see any rose.

Kuruśreṣṭha: They don't like to grow nice things for fear someone will take them.

Bahulavana: There's a big rose garden by the museum.

Kuruśreṣṭha: They don't grow fruit trees in the park because someone will eat them.

Prabhupāda: And he will not work. Escaping. (break) ...demonic mentality, "I shall not do anything which will be enjoyed by others." And human mentality is that "I shall do something which will be enjoyed by others." That is human mentality.

Brahmānanda: In India isn't it the system that after they harvest the wheat they leave some on the ground for the others to come and pick?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they distribute while in the field. They give to the brāhmaṇas, to the temples, to the king, and the balance they take. This is the Vedic system, that if I grow something, first of all twenty-five percent to the king, then to the temple, to the brāhmaṇas, to the poor. And then balance, I shall take. And they produce so large quantity, they do not feel any scarcity. And when the trade came, people understood. Then they want to sell. "Why shall I give to the temple? Why shall I give to the brāhmaṇa? Save it. I shall sell it. I shall get more money, and I shall drink." When trade came. When there was no trade, you grow your own food and distribute freely. In my Guru Mahārāja's time they were collecting the rice and other food grain, huge quantity. They were giving. And now they are not giving. They think that "If I sell, I shall get so much money, and it will help me for my drinking."

Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what would people do who live in areas where things are not grown so easily, like in the colder areas?

Prabhupāda: Why should you live there? Why don't you come where things are grown?

Kuruśreṣṭha: This excessive cold is only punishment.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kuruśreṣṭha: Previously there was not such excessive cold on the planet?

Prabhupāda: There was, for the punishable person. (break) ...drinking water?

Kuruśreṣṭha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why it is open?

Brahmānanda: They keep it running?

Devotee (2): All the time. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  July 1, 1975, Denver                                                              400371

Prabhupāda: ...competition amongst the gopīs, who can satisfy Kṛṣṇa more. In the spiritual world there is also competition. (break) ...two parties, one, Rādhārāṇī's party, and one, Candravāli's party. (Car horn honks) Come on. (laughs)

                                                                                                                                                                        400437

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, around our society now there are many devotees who are following different kinds of diets. They read some book and they get some idea. They follow...

Prabhupāda: This is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one of the things I see about the unique feature of all the diets that they have in common is that the devotees more or less stop taking the prasādam which is offered to the Deity.

Prabhupāda: This is not good. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems to me that one ofthe important aspects of bhakti-yoga is to depend upon Kṛṣṇa for one's maintenance.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So whatever is offered to the Deity, one should accept.

Prabhupāda: The prasādam is not suitable?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well it is standard prasādam. Chapatis, rice, dahl, subji, fruits.

Prabhupāda: So why they do not like?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they are reading these books...

Prabhupāda: And becoming influenced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. This should be stopped.

Sudāmā: A lot of devotees, they take these fasting for twenty days, thirty days, fasting.

Prabhupāda: That means they are manufacturing their own way of life. That's not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our best devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he recently left our association. And one of the... I know the biggest reason is that he was fasting completely from almost all foods for thirty days.

Prabhupāda: But fasting is good. If one can fast, that is good. That is tapasya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But see, they read these books in addition.

Prabhupāda: Fasting is not bad. If one can fast, that is very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Total fast, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: I remember in Los Angeles...

Prabhupāda: That is great austerity.

Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we should not fast more than one day.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I wanted to point out to you that the results...

Prabhupāda: No, artificial... Just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was fasting, but he was not weak. That fasting. And he who will fast artificially and become weak, "I cannot work," that is not required. That is called markaṭa-vairāgya. If you fast and at the same time you do not become weak, then that is recommended. And after fasting you cannot do a flat, fall flat, then what is the use of fasting? Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was fasting, but he was taking thrice bathing and offering obeisances hundred times. His regular activities was not stopped. And he was taking every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot imitate his position.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. We have to work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One of the important things about taking prasādam is that all the devotees sit together. It is actually a very spiritual activity. Just like in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the feasts...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is recommended, that we are following. But now it is not following?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have to say frankly, I have seen now that in many... I don't want to get into mentioning any names, but some devotees are preaching this.

Prabhupāda: Preaching? Who is that nonsense, preaching.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Revatīnandana Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is preaching like this.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is becoming rascal, day by day. Stop him doing these things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he's influencing other people. The whole temple in Laguṇa Beach, they were doing this.

Prabhupāda: Then, what can I do? You are all GBCs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now that we know, we'll take action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatinandana is becoming less and less spiritually. He had good potency, but he is losing that.

Devotee (1): You said that if we fast and we can't do our work and we become weak, than this is not so good.

Prabhupāda: This is not good, "not so" not, absolutely bad.

Devotee (1): So, our devotional service comes first?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): So if there is, let us say there is grain and rice being offered to the Deities, and one finds that if he eats this, his service is impaired. Like so many times I've seen, practically myself if I overeat grains in the summertime, I drive around doing my service and I'm falling asleep.

Prabhupāda: Then which foodstuff suits you?

Devotee (1): Fruits are more... they keep me more active.

Prabhupāda: So you take fruit. Fruit is also offered to the Deity. There are varieties of prasādam. So whichever suits, you can take. Anything artificial is bad.

Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Los Angeles they are charging money for the prasādam, and we find that it's cheaper to buy our own prasādam and offer it ourself.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Yadubara: They are charging money in Los Angeles for the prasādam each meal, so we find it is cheaper to...

Prabhupāda: Prepare your own?

Yadubara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you do that.

Harikeśa: Yes. They will not let a householder take unless they pay money first.

Yadubara: 75c for noon prasādam and 50c for breakfast.

Prabhupāda: So if you can prepare cheaper, you can do that.

Yadubara: All right. (break)

Brahmānanda: It's a type of cannon. (break)

Yadubara: You mentioned before that it is better that we not do so much cooking. If everyone is separately cooking, then that is such a time-consuming thing for everyone.

Prabhupāda: But you said that "If we cook, it is cheaper." Then? If it is cheaper, convenient, then you cook. I said that "You save time. Don't cook."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cheapest thing is to cook one thing for... cook for everyone. That is the cheapest and quickest.

Bhāvānanda: During Māyāpur festival, Śrīla Prabhupāda, nicest thing was when we all sat down together and took prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāvānanda: Five hundred devotees, it was nice, spiritual activity. And everyone took what was given.

Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? I do not find. (break)

Bhāvānanda: ...the tongue, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: Chapati, rice is innocent food. What is the difficulty?

Bhāvānanda: It's nice.

Prabhupāda: Over and above, there is fruit.

Harikeśa: A lot of devotees are quoting you that... they say that there is no need to eat grains, that you said grains were for the animals.

Prabhupāda: I am...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Prabhupāda is eating grains. (laughter)

Harikeśa: I tell them that.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, they say, "Prabhupāda says." And you believe that. (break)

Bhāvānanda: ...I think the people are spoiled. If they go to India, they see that here they're turning down rice; there the people are dying for lack of rice.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhāvānanda: In India. And here they're saying, "Oh, I don't want this and don't want that. I don't want this grain, that grain." But in India people are dying for want of food. Here they're so spoiled. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa's position. If He does not supply grains, then He is accused. And He supplies grains, then He is accused. (laughter)

Bhāvānanda: Everyone is accused. (break)

Satsvarūpa: ...those scientists came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and even said milk was no good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: That is what they say in these books on health, these health books. They say that cow milk is no good.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Harikeśa: But meat is all right.

Yadubara: No, some of them, most of them don't say that. It's very contaminating to read those and to follow.

Prabhupāda: Therefore follow taking prasādam. Let whatever may happen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the best thing. Let us die eating prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) That is devotee.

Sudāmā: Because in the beginning, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you encouraged us, all of us, to take much prasādam, to our full satisfaction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I say still.

Sudāmā: You said that that is one of our greatest weapons against māyā, is Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. (break)

Yadubara: I'm a good example that these diets are not very good. (laughter) I can testify.

Brahmānanda: Me too.

Prabhupāda: The diets are not good or you are not good?

Yadubara: Oh. (break) ...for one year to alter the diet in so many ways and it never worked. It was useless. (break)

Devotee (2): I think that's for maintaining the right depth to the lake. I think they have a pump house down here, and they maintain the depth of the lake by these things.

Prabhupāda: Water is supplied or...?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): In Denver here we have many businesses going on for you. And we are out engaging karmīs in helping us retrieve lakṣmī. We are going to them for lakṣmī in so many ways. How is it that this engages them, or does it engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service? Do they make any benefit?

Prabhupāda: What they are doing by doing business? They are gṛhasthas doing business?

Brahmānanda: They are outsiders, karmīs, they manufacture jewelry and some shirts, for which they get a salary.

Devotee (1): Yes, but the devotees are maintaining the business. And I myself go out and talk to rascals all day long, demons, mlecchas. Am I engaging them in Kṛṣṇa's service by taking lakṣmī?

Prabhupāda: What you are doing with the money?

Devotee (1): I'm giving it to the temple president so that we can buy a farm for you.

Prabhupāda: No, if you are engaging the money for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right.

Brahmānanda: He's asking about is there any benefit to the karmīs that he deals with because he engages in business activity with them? Do the karmīs get benefit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent they are helping Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Yadubara: They also have this program in Pittsburg, the same thing. They come to the temple and manufacture jewelry.

Prabhupāda: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can see there. Everyone can work, but the result of the work should go to Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Devotee (1): ...lakṣmī from them so we can engage them more in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Prabhupāda: Provided you engage them for Kṛṣṇa's service. Otherwise the lakṣmī will kill you. Just like Sītā, Sītā is Lakṣmī. When Sītā was taken by Rāvaṇa, the result was the whole family was killed because they did not use Sītā for Rāma's service. (break) ...householders can be engaged, not anyone else.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So my question is: Supposing half of those men that are in our movement are householders. Would it not be more beneficial that everyone engages in preaching work, or is that impractical?

Prabhupāda: Preaching is for the sannyāsīs, for the brahmacārī. And householder, because they are brāhmaṇas, they can be engaged in Deity worship and also earning money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Business.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not more practical to earn money by preaching?

Prabhupāda: If preaching, by preaching we can get money, why should we go to the karmīs?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you wrote me in a letter that so far as you are concerned, you think that your books are enough to maintain the society.

Prabhupāda: I think so. But if they think that by doing some other business, they will get more money, then what can I say? This is very good business. Yes. We are preaching, at the same time getting money.

Devotee (2): We have found in our experience that some kinds of men do better in doing business. They feel more satisfied in collecting money in that way for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that money should be used for Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (2): Yes. Different kinds of men have to be engaged in different ways. Otherwise they become dissatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, svakarmaṇā. Anyone, he likes to do something, that is his karma. But by that karma, he can serve Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate navaḥ. Saṁsiddhi means perfection. (break)

Devotee (1): ...in our preaching work we will be able to maintain our temples, and with our business activities, we will be able to expand and buy all these farms, do so many things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is favorable, do it, business.(?) Therefore we have made program: 50% must come to Kṛṣṇa, at least. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (In car:)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...because that many people are involved.

Prabhupāda: Dieting, the best thing is to take prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Definitely. It's clear cut. My only feeling about...

Prabhupāda: And if our... Pushed on our men... The thing is they supply more spices, and especially that mustard. This is not good. This is prohibited.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be mild, prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Practically no spices. Simply little cumin. And this turmeric. Turmeric you get from India, whole turmeric. This powdered turmeric is very, very bad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unhealthy.

Harikeśa: They put sawdust in it.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very unhealthy.

Prabhupāda: It is very cheating. Any powdered spice is not good.

Harikeśa: Asafoetida also.

Prabhupāda: Everything. As soon as it is powder, they will mix with all rubbish things. And it is very easy to cheat you. You are susceptible for being cheated. So they take advantage and cheat you. So best thing is to import spices from India whole and either get it powdered or during time of cooking you make them paste. That is first class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Crushing.

Prabhupāda: You just put the spices water, soaked in water for some time, and then in mortar and pestle you...

Dhanaïjaya: Smash it.

Prabhupāda: That is very nice. And immediately you fresh prepare and put into the vegetable. It will be tasteful, and it will be beneficial. All spices are beneficial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And much cheaper.

Prabhupāda: Cheaper, of course, there is no question to you what is cheaper. For you everything is "damn cheap."

Harikeśa: The Rādhā-Dāmodara party has very good prasādam program. This halavā they make every morning--everyone is fully satisfied.

Prabhupāda: They are sane men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every morning we have...

Prabhupāda: So why do they not follow your principle?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it's very... And the devotees love it. Every day, Prabhupāda, we...

Prabhupāda: No, every temple give them example, invite them in your prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's what I'm going to do today.

Harikeśa: I noticed the devotees would wait for prasādam with great...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. It requires good leader, that's all. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa we must prepare very first-class foodstuff, and where is the complaint if it is first class?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all a concoction. Certain devotees have concocted. They have taken advice from other masters, food masters, what to eat, what not to eat, all concoction. It's clearly written in Bhagavad-gītā, those foods which are sattvic--juicy, fatty. Everything is mentioned there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guide them. (break) ...here the main business is slaughterhouse.

 

Morning walk                                                   July 2, 1975, Denver                                                              400740

Prabhupāda: ...daily, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā, what is that?

Nitāi: Cittete koriyā aikya.

Prabhupāda:

ār nā koriho mane āśā

So guru, your guru has said that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, observe these rules." Do that, don't speculate, and you will understand everything. (break) ...daily

guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya,

ār nā koriho mane āśā

No speculation, do it.

 

Morning Walk                                                  July 3, 1975, Denver                                                                400831

Prabhupāda: Yes. When He sees, "That fool wants Me, at the same time, material world. So take his material possession, everything, so that he will want only Me, that's all." Actually, it was done to me. (laughs) I have got practical experience. I did not want to take sannyāsa. I thought that I shall do business. And Kṛṣṇa forced me to take sannyāsa and all, everything, dismantled.

Devotee (4): Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us.

Yadubara: But your business was successful...

Prabhupāda: I was thinking of becoming Birla, but I am now more than Birla. This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Brahmānanda: Birla gives you money now.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, how many branches Birla has? It is an example, yes.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if a devotee gets sick, should he go and take medicine?

Prabhupāda: Better not to take.

Devotee (4): Just depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good. What is this?

Kuruśreṣṭha: Rosehips. (Horse hips(?) Forceps(?))

Yadubara: You said the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we should take care of disease if it comes. Cāṇakya Paṇòita was also saying fire and so on.

Prabhupāda: That is material consciousness.

Brahmānanda: Fasting is one way of eliminating the disease without taking medicine.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a Indian proverb that "Disease and unwanted guest, if you don't give food, they will go away." If some guest has come whom you do not want, don't give him food. Then he will go away. (laughter) Similarly, disease, if you fast, it will go away. (break) ...another story: prahareṇa dhanaïjaya. One gentleman had eight or nine daughters and son-in-law. So when they came, he was giving them good food and shelter, everything. So then they saw, "We are very comfortably living at father-in-law's expense." So they did not want to go. The father-in-law saw, "It is very dangerous that all the son-in-laws are not going." Then he began to... First day he did not supply salt. So one son-in-law say, "Oh, they are now disrespecful, they have not given salt." So one went away. And next day, something else, something else, something else, shortened, shortened. So those who were intelligent, they went away. The last one, he was not going. Then his brother-in-laws thought that "Give him good beating." Then he went away. Prahareṇa dhanaïjaya. Others, those who were intelligent, they, when they thought that "Now there is disrespectful dealing, they are not giving everything," so they gradually... The last one, he was a rascal. He was beaten severely; then he went away.

Yadubara: So if we're beaten by this material nature, then we'll go away.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. No, material nature's business is beating and kicking. That's his only business. But we are so fool, we are taking, "Oh, very nice kicking." That is the disease. We accept the kicking as very nice. That is foolishness. We are suffering always by three kinds of..., ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika, ādhidaivika disturbances. There is disturbance in the body, in the mind, disturbance by other living entities, so many, disturbed by climate, disturbed by famine. Always disturbance. Still, we are thinking, "It is very nice place." This is foolishness. Still, we are trying to improve it. That is foolishness. He does not think that "What is the meaning of improvement? The disturbing is always continuing." That does not come to his brain. They are making improvement. (break) ...improvement, they can say, "This is improvement." But how long this improvement will go? If there is no rainfall, what this improvement will help? So that is not in your hand. That is ādhidaivika. It depends on the demigods. If they want, they can stop completely, no rainfall. Then what this improvement will do?

Brahmānanda: There'll be no water for their machines.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are thinking that "This is improvement." What is this nonsense improvement? You are dependent fully on other elements. What improvement will do? And Kṛṣṇa says, "This is a place for misery." How you will improve? This is folly, this is illusion. Kṛṣṇa says, "This place is for suffering," and you are making improvement. "Yes, we are advancing. In future we shall live. Nobody will die." Therefore they are called rascals. Persons who are trying to do something which is impossible, they are fools. Mūòha. They do not see, still, they hope, "Yes, we are trying. We shall do in future." This is going on. This is the example by the ass. The ass... Driver is sitting on the back of the ass and showing one bunch of grass, and the ass is thinking, "I will get it." (laughter) And he is going on, and he is sitting safely, that "The ass will go on." So our improvement is like that. "Just little forward, then I shall get the grass." He will never get the grass. That he has no brain, that "I am improving; the grass also improving, going on." That they do not see. Now we invented so many airship. It was thought, "Oh, now it will be very nice. Within two hours we shall reach somewhere." Now there are so many dangers. Now there is problem, how to protect us from these accidents.

                                                                                                                                                                        400955

Brahmānanda: Well, they say that they can control nature.

Prabhupāda: Again foolishness. That irritates me. When they speak like that, rascal, that irritates me. (laughter) Therefore I simply call them rascal. (break) Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇaḥ. They are claiming very, very, big man, but as soon as we see that he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we reject, "He is a foolish." (break) There is... That is a fact, one case was going on, and the judge was dozing, like that. So his clerk warned, "You are dozing. Big, big lawyers, they are talking." "So let these rascals go on talking. I have already concluded my..., (laughter) what judgment I shall give. Let them..." (laughs) So our is like that. We don't hear these rascals. Our judgment is already there. They are rascals. That's all. Let them talk whole day and night. The judge said to the clerk that "I have already made my judgment, so let these foolish men go on talking." (break) ...minister of Orissa, he has promised a land in Jagannātha Purī. So if we get that land, is it not possible to construct another Jagannātha temple? You'll earn the American money here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they won't let us into that Jagannātha Purī, we have to make another one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagannātha will come to our temple. Yes. (break) ...selling prasādam, we shall distribute free. (break) ...comes, take prasādam. (end)

 

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston                               July 4, 1975, Chicago                           400962

Prabhupāda: ...magazine?

Mayor: No. I know about the article on the crime and I have it at home, but I have not read it as yet. But we certainly know that it's a tremendous problem in the United States, perhaps throughout the world and certainly here.

Prabhupāda: It is not a problem. Just like there is disease, and there is remedy also. And as much as the disease is chronic, the remedy is also costly. So in the western countries--do not mind--they are not trying to educate first-class men, and that is the difficulty. This advancement, technical knowledge, to have nice motor cars or big, big buildings, highways, this is very good, but this is not the aim of life.

Mayor: No, material things should not be.

Prabhupāda: They are missing the aim of life. That is the... The aim of life is, an..., not according to Vedic, but anyone, the aim of life is how to realize God. That is aim. In the animal life or in other lives less important than the human being there is no question of God realization. In the human life, the civilized human life, there is religion. It doesn't matter whether one is Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist. These are the principle religions of the world. So any civilized man must be inquisitive to know what is the original source of everything. That philosophy is there. It is called Brahma-sūtra or Vedānta-sūtra. Perhaps you have heard the name, Vedānta philosophy. Veda means knowledge, and anta means end. In the materialistic way of knowledge they did not find any end, and they accept it "That this is progress." But one must come to the end of the knowledge, what is the ultimate knowledge. So generally they are missing what is the ultimate knowledge. We are searching after knowledge in so many ways but what is the ultimate knowledge? The ultimate knowledge, Vedānta, means end of knowledge. End of knowledge means to understand the original source of everything. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. The human inquisitiveness should be up to that point, what is the origin of everything. Because human life is not a spot. That... The western people are lacking that understanding. We are thinking that this duration of life, say, for fifty to a hundred years, that is all. No. That is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, that this body is not everything. We have to accept another body after death. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As we are accepting different bodies in our this span of life from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age... So this is the example. And after this old age, after this body is useless, then I accept another body. And again another chapter of life begins. And on my next life, next body I am creating, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ asya, infection. Just like if I infect some disease, I am creating that disease. If I infect smallpox disease, then I must develop that disease. How it is, subtle way, working, that we cannot see. But if somewhere I have infected some disease, somewhere it will be manifest. It will manifest. You cannot check it. So in this material world there are three qualities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. So as we associate, we develop a type of body. So these crimes means they do not get good association. Naturally they are developing. And now these boys, they are also Americans and Europeans. They are getting good association, and they are becoming free from all bad habits. We generally take bad character on the basis of illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling.

Mayor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So they were habituated to all... Because that is a system in the European, American life. But now they are free. That is Professor Judah's remark in his letter. Have you got that? Yes. He has written one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture, about our movement. He has read all our books. Here are, you have shown all these books? So he appreciates, many gentlemen appreciate, even the priestly class, they also appreciate. So this is a movement which is trying to create at least a section to become first-class. The first-class man does not mean that he is nicely dressed or very rich or very opulent. Generally, of course, a first-class man means good parentage, good education, good looking and nicely rich. That is the standard. But... That may be first-class position, but first-class man is different. First-class man means he is self-controlled, in the mind he is undisturbed, he is truthful, he is very clean, inside and outside, he is very simple, tolerant, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge, and believe in God. This is first-class man. There is no mention that he is rich, he is beautiful, bodily, or he is educated. Educated, this is a result of education. Real education means that he is self controlled. Controlling the mind, controlling the senses, truthful. He will speak truth in any circumstances. Even to his enemy he will speak the truth. And clean, and very simple, tolerant. And any knowledge, he has got some, I mean to say, strength over it. Ultimate knowledge, Brahmān, he believes in that and he has... Brahma janātītī brāhmaṇaḥ, This is first-class man. So it is not expected that everyone will become first-class. but there must be a section in the society, ideal first-class. And they will be advisor to the rest. These brāhmaṇas, they will not take part in politics, but those who are politicians, administrators, they should take advice from these first-class men, how to rule, how to control, what is the ideal. So the ruling class, they are called kṣatriyas. So find out this verse, śamaḥ damaḥ...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want about the kṣatriya or the brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class man. And the second-class man?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaṣ ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas."

Prabhupāda: That is second-class. And the third-class?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

"Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities..."

Prabhupāda: They are not cattle raising, that was...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Cow protection. It has to be corrected. It is go-rakṣya, go. They take it cattle-raising. I think Hayagrīva has translated like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva.

Prabhupāda: No, it is especially mentioned go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. And then...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam.

Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.

Mayor: It takes a great deal of discipline to try to achieve these ideals, and that's one thing that seems to be difficult these days, especially in young people, to have any sense of the need for discipline at all.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: He says young people today have no sense of discipline. They don't know what it means to be...

Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable--the teacher sees--Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vānaprastha. Païcaśordhvam vānam vrajet. The vānaprastha life is accepted, generally, after fiftieth year, not earlier. Then the husband and wife travels all over, I mean to say, spiritual sanctified places. In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyāsa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect. If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world. This training required. So throughout the whole world there is no such institution to study all this fact. They are going just like fourth-class men. They have decided out of their own accord that there is no life after death. Young men say that there is no old age, but nature will not agree. Your next life is old age. That is natural. You cannot say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." You believe or not believe, it will come. Similarly, you believe or not believe, your next life is there. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want the translation to it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: So this education is required. America is resourceful and they are intelligent. And the movement is already there, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, people are appreciating gradually. So if we get little cooperation from the authorities, we can push on this movement more solidly. So you are the chief of this city. If you give us some facility, then we can be useful to counteract this position.

Mayor: Well, we'd like to cooperate and we certainly need a different approach I think because we're not being successful now in trying to...

Prabhupāda: No, this way will never be successful. It will degrade more and more. So our process is very simple. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution, that we chant... Where is that letter? Professor Judah's? Just read that.

Brahmānanda: "I feel certain my book will help people both to understand the teachings of Kṛṣṇa the of His descent as Caitanya and to realize how Kṛṣṇa consciousness has transformed lives from drug-addicted hippies to loving servants of Kṛṣṇa and humanity."

Prabhupāda: This is his study. He has written a book. So we can stop this, provided we are given the facility to work on.

Mayor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was thinking. Just in front there is a very nice house, big house. You have knowledge about this house?

Mayor: No, I...

Prabhupāda: What is that building?

Śrī Govinda: Merrywood.

Mayor: Oh, we are right across the street from Merrywood, yes, uh huh, which we're going to have as a city hall.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You have decided?

Mayor: Yes, uh huh, about, oh, just two weeks ago actually, the council...

Prabhupāda: So is it not possible to use this house at least for some time for this movement?

Mayor: The, er... I'm not sure what the time schedule is, but it's my impression that they were going to start remodeling it for city purposes later this year. It's about a three million dollar project, both for the purchase of the land from the sisters and the remodeling to make it suitable for various city needs. And then they're going to... The city is now located at nine different locations, that is, their facilities. And they're trying to incorporate them all in this one place so that when people need city services, they can just go one place and get all the...

Prabhupāda: But this is more important. City service is going on, but criminals are increasing. So why not give us little opportunity?

Mayor: Well, I could certainly discuss this with the city manager and see what could be worked out.

Śrī Govinda: Possibly we could invite the city manager also to come to discuss with Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No. So if we get a good place with the cooperation of the authorities, then our simple program is that, as Professor Judah has remarked, drug-addicted hippies, they have been turned into devotees. We shall invite anyone to come and chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam and we are... I began this movement in New York alone, and these boys gradually came to me, but my process was this: chanting and giving them prasādam. He is one of the original student. He was. So this process, very simple process, everyone will be able to accept it. Chant, dance, and take prasādam. Within that process, everything is there. Then he will understand. They will read these books... They are practical examples. I am poor Indian, I did not bribe them neither I have money. (laughter) So now they have dedicated their life for this purpose. So I want to do it in a large scale.

Mayor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But I have no money. So if the authorities give me a place, and for feeding them necessary foodstuff, then I am sure it will be successful. These two things I want. I don't want any charges for my mantra, no. My mantra is open, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and there is no charge for it. And I have no necessity. I require a little clothing and two chapatis. That's all. Anyone can bring. I thought Chicago is one of the important cities of your country. And when I first came, I saw this is vacant. So I thought if this house can be utilized in the beginning and we invite anyone, especially young men, come here, live with us at least for one week and associate with this chanting, dancing, and we give nice prasādam. There is no difficulty. We can attempt. And if the authorities give us this facility at least for one year then we shall talk of permanent. They can see the result.

Mayor: Would you use the facility, then, as sort of a center for all over the United States?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We invite. As soon as they have got a leisure hour, let them come and live with us for one week and see the result. They can remain forever. It doesn't matter. But for experimental sake they can come, live with us and associate with us. It is not difficult. And we invite everyone. We have no such discrimination that black, white, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, no. Anyone. It is universal. Because we consider every living entity is part and parcel of God. That is a fact. We are teeny gods, part and parcel. The same quality we have got--in minute quantity. Quality is the same, quantity is less. So God is good, so we are also good. But we have become bad under circumstances. Just like under infection, one becomes diseased. So if we cure that infection, again he becomes good. So it is the curing process. It is not an external artificial thing, imposed upon somebody, no. His goodness is there. Just like generally a man is healthy, but by infecting some disease he becomes diseased. So this material way of life is a kind of infection. So we have to cure that. And this is our process. And it has become successful. So therefore this problem of your country... I was this morning also lecturing that "You take up this movement very seriously and save your country." And if you save America, means you save the whole world because others are following America. So you can do it very easily. That is my appeal to the authorities of the American administration. But I do not want anything. For your countrymen, for your misguided youthful generation, you have to do it. That is my request. Otherwise there is no other way.

Viṣṇujana: According to national statistics, as far as curing drug problems and crime problems, it's seen that social organizations that are supported by the town councils, etc. are usually about 3% effective in cases cured of either drug addiction or crime. But as far as religious organizations are concerned, some of them are 70, 80% effective in cases that have been attempted cure. So it's, as far as percentage cured, the process of introducing God consciousness is much more effective than some social reform or rehabilitation work or something like that.

Prabhupāda: No, social reform will automatically come. The first-class reform, the brāhmaṇas, if their advice is taken, then the other classes the kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdras, they become automatically.

Mayor: We're aware that a religious approach is more successful and our mental health society here is funding the Reverend Perry who is a black ordained, I think, a Baptist protestant minister, formerly a drug addict. And he's been working out with, especially with the blacks who have drug addiction and he achieves much more success than other agencies.

Prabhupāda: Which process? Drug addiction has been helped by somebody?

Brahmānanda: No, the mayor's saying that the administration is not against supporting religious organizations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: He gives the example of one religious organization.

Prabhupāda: This is everything. Religious, social, political, philanthropical, science, everything included. We can give advice for solving any problem. That we have got all these books, practical. And in India there is political problem. Everywhere it is going on. They do not follow the standard way. Who will be the politicians? Here is the..., described. What are the politicians? Second-class, they are taken second-class. What is that? Śaurya tejaḥ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Heroism..."

Prabhupāda: Heroism, yes. Śaurya tejaḥ...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, read this, read...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam.

Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed--yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight--then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war. So yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Those who are taking part in administration, in politics, they must be of this quality, very chivalrous, brave. They have to learn all these quality. Just like the first-class men, they are being trained up in self-controlling, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. And these second-class men, they should be trained up how to fight. Because fight will there be. We do not place this bogus idea that there will be no fight. No. Then fight will be there so long the human society is there. But what for one should fight? That training should be there. Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. (break) Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people. He is safe, now the people are dying. Therefore these leaders, this administration, they require to be guided by the first-class men. So everything will be possible, provided our, this heart is cleansed. And that can be done by this propagation of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Then everything will be automatically done. So my request is that if we get some encouragement from the authorities, we can push this movement little more vigorously. Otherwise we have no source. We simply sell our books, and whatever we get by that, we maintain ourself, we publish again books, or we open new center. There is no encouragement from the authorities. (break) But very important movement. And try to understand it and if possible help us.

Mayor: All right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our request. Bring prasāda. If you have got any further enquiry, I can try to...

Mayor: No, I really don't think I do, and I think I'd like to learn more about your movement too. But I have enjoyed having to talk and listen to you and I appreciate it.

Prabhupāda: No, put it here. He'll take. Take this prasāda. They are all fruits, innocent. In your country you have got so many nice fruits.

Mayor: Yes, we do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And grains and milk. So much nice things. You can avoid meat-eating very easily, as they have given up.

Mayor: It looks very good, but I (indistinct) with a knife. (laughter)

Viṣṇujana: Someone is bringing a fork. Prabhupāda, perhaps we could provide him with some of our literature and that will inform him more about our movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes, give him.

Mayor: All right, thank you.

Prabhupāda: So, Jagadīśa, you give whatever... You take his... Give him some fork.

Mayor: I had some cake over at the temple on Emerson Street, so I'm being well-fed this morning. (break)

Viṣṇujana: ...park areas where a lot of young people go for their summertime. And we'll be putting on our program right there in the park. We'll be chanting with our simple instruments. We'll want to serve some simple vegetarian, like a drink and some fruit, and discuss this philosophy amongst young people. We find that very successful all over the colleges in the country. And we think that around the Great Lakes here it will be very successful.

Prabhupāda: Now, we want this house just to keep them for some times with our association. That is temporary, for one hour or two hours, but I wish they should come and live with us for some time. Then it will be effective, more effective. That is... Therefore I wanted a house like this.

Mayor: Well, I think I probably should be getting on. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me this morning.

Prabhupāda: And I also thank you for your kindly coming here, taking...

Mayor: It's an honor to meet you.

Prabhupāda: So you can keep his card. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Śrī Govinda: ...to your wife.

Mayor: My wife may take it away from me. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So you can take another for your wife.

Mayor: No, this is fine. Thank you very much. We'll see you all.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (mayor leaves) Now, try to get this house from the... He can... If he likes, he can do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're in a position. They have many such buildings, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If not this building, they could give an alternate building.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is very good building. We can keep five hundred men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also seem to have their eyes on it. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Bhavānanda: This is a very wealthy community.

Prabhupāda: Oh, wealthy community. So invite all the young men to come and live with us for some time, and simply chanting, dancing, and give them prasādam. And if they like, they can read the books. Give this chance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Of course, it would be beneficial if we had such a big building, but why can't we do it with the present building?

Prabhupāda: We cannot accomodate many men there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But at least we should be able to attract them.

Prabhupāda: Then you do this. Do this. This is the only means to save. Otherwise, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other second alternative.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point I am bringing up, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that just like the program you're proposing, practically speaking...

Prabhupāda: My idea is I want to draw the attention of the authorities.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: You see? If they cooperate, then we can push on our movement more vigorously.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So with our present location here we cannot...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that you can do in a larger scale.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I see.

Prabhupāda: We are doing it. In a small scale it is going on, but if we get some support of the authorities, we can push on in larger scale.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the idea. We are not going to stop for anything. We are going on with our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. So the point is we need a larger scale...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: And we need help from the government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right.

Prabhupāda: And if there is good result, then government will... Just like they have thought Maharishi's movement is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they are supporting, the government is supporting that movement.

Prabhupāda: We are not being supported, why? We have not come to the notice of the government. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                 July 5, 1975, Chicago                                                              401095

Prabhupāda: (in car) ...saṁsāre māyāra janeiya, moha janeiya, jīva ke karaye gadha. This māyāra vaibhava, this material advancement is advancement of māyā. Big, big building, nice road, nice motor car, nice... Surely it is material advancement, admitted. But this advancement is advancement of the illusory energy. So what is the wrong there? Suppose... The wrong is there that this material world is temporary. We have come here temporarily, say twenty-five years, fifty years or at most, hundred years. So we are already illusioned and we become more illusioned. Then we forget our real business. Mūòha, we remain mūòha. Supposing if there is next birth, so who is very much anxious to know what is our next birth? Nobody is. Blindly going on. māyāra vaibhava. (break) ...very nice church, but understand what for this church is, what is God, what is God consciousness. Just cultivate this knowledge. "No, big church finished." Live nice building, nice happy life, but don't forget Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of this life? And if you forget Kṛṣṇa, then the result will be crime, and you will be facing with problems, "Why and now what to do?" So many problems will be there. So the problems cannot be solved simply by possessing big, big buildings.

Jagadīśa: Shall we get out and walk, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Any way.

Jagadīśa: Do you want to walk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But how we will walk if it is dripping?

Brahmānanda: It's raining. We can ride along the beach... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...saṁsāre, moha janmeiva, jīva ke karaye gadha. There are so many churches.

Jayatīrtha: This is a special area, Jagadīśa? There are so many churches. All over America there are very expensive churches. In India you do not see so many temples. I was surprised when I went there first. Because you do not see very many big, gorgeous, temples. But here everywhere there are big gorgeous churches.

Prabhupāda: Oh, no, India, in South India...

Brahmānanda: South India is full.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, South India. North India not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have not seen Jagannātha temple?

Jayatīrtha: No.

Prabhupāda: Beginning from Madras, very big, big temples. In Vṛndāvana also, that Raìganātha temple?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. There are some nice temples in the north.

Prabhupāda: In south, many. (sings:) Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu... These are all university house or private?

Jagadīśa: Some university and some private. After here, these are private homes.

Prabhupāda: All very nice house.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let them, every house, small temple, perform kīrtana. Then this will be all success. Do not cook meat. Nice prasādam. Everything can be utilized for better purpose. Now, in the morning, they are sleeping. Nidrāya hriyate naktaṁ vyavayena ca vā vayaḥ. At night either sleeping or sex, and daytime, divā carthehaya rājan kutumba-bharaṇena vā. Daytime, "Where is money? Where is money?" Oh, seventy miles' speed. "Go there. There is some money." All right, take money. Then what is your next business? Kutumba-bharaṇena vā. Just to purchase for the family, finish money. Again tomorrow. "But where is the business of your spiritual life?" "No time. What can we do? Night we are busy in this way, and day we are busy. Where is the time? Don't bother us." (laughs) Divā carthehaya rājan kutumba-bharaṇena vā. (break) ...try to make them devotees, they will not become?

Jayatīrtha: Not very easily.

Prabhupāda:

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

(samādhau) na vidhīyate

Therefore too much attachment for material enjoyment is disqualification for spiritual life. So the western world is trained up for being too much attached to material enjoyment. Therefore lagging behind in spiritual life. Vedic civilization is not to encourage too much for material enjoyment. Minimize. That is Indian civilization. They, if they had money they used to spend for constructing big temple, not for residential house. Maybe the king only had a big palace. Common men, they didn't care for big palace, the palatial building. Common man would be very glad to live in a cottage, and a small garden for growing vegetables, fruits, small lake, that's all. Not wasting time for big, big buildings, big, big... What is called, amenities?

Jayatīrtha: Amenities. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        401205

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we have heard that ekādaśī is a inauspicious alignment of the planets and therefore one has to counteract this inauspiciousness by more chanting.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no. It is the most auspicious. And chanting is more effective. (break) Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember you were instructing once that all of your initiated disciples should chant twenty-five rounds...

Prabhupāda: Minimum.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Minimum on this day. Is that a rule that we should all follow in our temples?

Prabhupāda: We are sixteen rounds.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean on ekādaśī.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ekādaśī, simply you should chant. No other business. Nirjala.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No preaching work? Should they go out for preaching?

Prabhupāda: No, those who are preaching, not for them. Those who are sitting idle, or they... (laughter) (break) ...has no other regulation, simply preaching. A preacher is so exalted. He hasn't got to follow any regulation. But don't take it. (laughter) And actually if one is busy in preaching work, that is first-class. (break) ...not my manufactured word, my Guru Mahārāja, that the... That Mādhava Mahārāja, when he was a brahmacārī, his name was Hayagrīva. So he was to go somewhere. So but he was sick. Guru Mahārāja was informed that he was sick and "Today is ekādaśī. He cannot take his regular meals." So Guru Mahārāja said, "No. Let him take immediately meals and go."

Revatīnandana: For preaching. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Mahārāja would sacrifice everything for preaching.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. (break) He was not pleased with Bon Mahārāja, He could not do anything. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...most pleased with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We must be sure of that.

Prabhupāda: Unless he is pleased, what I am worth? It is due to his pleasure. Otherwise what I am worth? Everyone says, "You have done wonderful." What can I do wonderful? It is by his pleasure it is going on. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. (break) Bon Mahārāja has written that, last line?

Brahmānanda: That your accomplishment has been very great. He had to admit. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He admitted it publicly.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No. He has written me a letter. I invited him. (break) Now, he has returned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he has returned. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                         July 5, 1975,Chicago                                                              401352

Prabhupāda: We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vṛndāvana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society?

Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.

Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayatīrtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first-class, if they are a brāhmaṇa or whether they are kṣatriya or vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out, śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa.

Jayatīrtha:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which a brāhmaṇa works."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?

Jayatīrtha: Do you know any first-class men?

Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in the society. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?

Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, to cont..., mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.

Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first-class man.

Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Nārāyaṇa is successful?

Prabhupāda: No.

Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.

Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.

Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first-class if she...

Prabhupāda: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband.

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class husband.

Prabhupāda: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.

Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it.

Prabhupāda: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son. Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son--three stages.

Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would ideally become a sannyāsī. Is that...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover? The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyāsa and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You can read, Nitāi, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is questioning, and son is answering.

Nitāi: Śrī bhagavān uvāca...

Prabhupāda: The mother first of all inquired? No.

Nitāi: Uh, you want me to start there.

Prabhupāda: Devahūti? The mother's name is Devahūti. And the son is celebrated as "son of Devahūti." The son is famous with the mother's name. And mother is taking instruction from the son. This is ideal society.

Nitāi:

devahūtir uvāca

nirviṇṇā nitarāṁ bhūmann

asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt

yena sambhāvyamānena

prapannāndhaṁ tamaḥ prabho

"Devahūti said: I am very sick of the disturbance of my material senses, for because of this sense disturbance, my Lord, I have fallen into the abyss of ignorance." Tasya tvaṁ tamaso 'ndhasya...

Prabhupāda: There is no purport of Devahūti?

Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body--and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."

Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.

Mrs. Wax: Thank you for answering my questions.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (Indian man): How do you advise Indians who are here and who have fallen to some extent in the materialistic world? They did not leave... Basically, they left their homes, most of them, to educate themselves. When they came here, they educated themselves, and they don't want to go back. Basically, they have fallen into the materialistic world. What advice you render them so that they get out of these clutches and go back and serve here or in the country but they should be devotional to the Almighty God?

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of here and there. You can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center. Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating? They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the lesson, that these foreigners, they were accustomed to eat meat from the childhood, they are giving up, and you are eating meat. This is the instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are already there, books are already there, the centers are already there. You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary for him. And there is no question of Indian, European, American. You are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happy--that is not possible. Now this paper Time is puzzled: "Crime and What to Do?" But they do not know... (break)

Guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion should be there. Now this your message, is conveyed through the reporters and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation and equal rights...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are asking solution of the question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā. You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are asking question from them. To answer will not be from them. The answer, the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā. Then the answer will be perfect.

Jayatīrtha: But if the people complain that we send our children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: The people in general, they say that we are inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do not think that they are killing their own children before they have a chance to be born.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say there is no first-class men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So these things are happening because there is no first-class brain. Yes?

Mr. Wax: In your many visits around the world do you see a desire among many men to try to improve, to become first-class men?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in your country there are so many.

Mr. Wax: Is there a great desire around the world? We here are a small group.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, everywhere. In Africa also.

Mr. Wax: There's hope for our world today?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying unless there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to train. That we are giving, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya. So at least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to become first-class. There is no current? You can get on the light. At the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life after death. Most people. There is life after death--they cannot understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars. Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental and when the body will be finished, everything is finished." That is the general understanding. But Bhagavad-gītā, you read. It is said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: "After the destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni anyāṇi gṛhṇāti aparāṇi: "Just like when our dress becomes old enough not to be used, then we accept another dress, similarly, when this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body." These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gītā has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find first-class eating, first-class life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire. And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing that--rabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching them--you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation,--you are learning how to eat meat. Why? So if you forget your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault. You should teach them how to utilize milk. And if the cows are kept jubilant, they will deliver double milk. They know, "We shall be killed." They are always depressed. Therefore milk is not properly supplied. So that is stated in the Bhagavad..., er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that during Mahārāja Yudhisthira's time the cows were so jubilant that milk was dropping from the milkbags, so much so that the pasturing grounds became muddy with milk. So if you keep... Killing of cows means utilizing the blood in different form. The milk is also another transformation of the blood. So if you take milk sufficiently and prepare nice foodstuff, then it is equally beneficial like the meat from health point of view. But one must know the..., learn that keep the cow living; at the same time be benefited by the blood. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this word kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. This animal has to be protected. Not other animals it is mentioned. And go, cow. So those who are meat-eaters, they can eat nonimportant animals. But cows should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the western country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war, crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more and more.

Jayatīrtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. You are not independent. So if you work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse. Why there are varieties of life. One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolish--why? Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000 species of life?

Jayatīrtha: You mentioned several times that those persons who are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but they never leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... That child is killed means it must take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another womb. This is going on. Mūòha janmani janmani. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life."

Nitāi:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi

bhunkte prakṛti-jān guṇān

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo'sya

sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Nitāi: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate the material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness."

Prabhupāda: They are trying to dominate the material nature, the so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. The domination is manifest by four things: birth, death, old age, and disease. I cannot dominate my birth, death, old age, and disease and I am trying to dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die? Why he could not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death comes can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you must die immediately. So where is your domination? You are dominated by material nature.

                                                                                                                                                                        401511

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, because you are presenting this knowledge so purely, then it's possible for the common man to understand this knowledge without chanting and following the four regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is not possible. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. You have to cleanse the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible.

Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common men. Then the books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is the difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written. Let me see." (laughter) And if he sees and says, "Oh, it is very nice," then the beginning is immediately. Therefore we are trying to push. At least let him say, "It is very nice." The Kartikeya's mother, the practical experience... The Kartikeya, when he used to go to see his mother, the mother was going to dance, ball dance, and she would not speak: "All right, sit down. I am coming." She used to go out. The same mother gradually, in the association of her son, became Kṛṣṇa conscious. So at the time of death she asked Kartikeya, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and she died immediately. This is the effect. So anta-kāle, she remembered Kṛṣṇa, so her life was successful. She inquired like this, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And immediately died. So she got the benefit of her son's Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can ask Kartikeya also. She said that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, he told me that story.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So all the mothers of my disciples, they will get salvation because she has got nice son like...

Jayatīrtha: All the mothers will get salvation.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, good. (laughter)

Devotee (3): What about the fathers.

Prabhupāda: Father also. Both the father and mother. Because they are father and mother of a Vaiṣṇava devotee, so they will be taken special care. You'll find from the Prahlāda Mahārāja's description. Even a father like Hiraṇyakaśipu, he got salvation because Prahlāda was son.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems strange that so many parents who are engaged in meat-eating and illicit sex and intoxication and gambling, could have a son who would become a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they will get the advantage of the son. Somehow or other, they have produced a son, Vaiṣṇava, so the son's activities will react upon the life of the parents. Because naturally the sons think of the father and mother, that is beneficial for them. However one may be renounced, he cannot get rid of family affection. That is natural. So the Vaiṣṇava son sometimes thinks of the father and mother. So they are getting the benefit.

Devotee: So sometimes the attachment is beneficial, then?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? We are trying to be attached with Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Instead of having attachment with this whole material world, we are turning to transfer the attachment to Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

The whole movement is how to increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Yes, read.

Nitāi:

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

"Now hear, O son of Pṛthā, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full..."

Prabhupāda: "With mind attached to Me." This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is success. That yoga we are practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti-yoga means how to transfer the attachment of mind to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profit--why? Because your mind has been attached to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise what business you have got to work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. You have found better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are attached to so many nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate on Kṛṣṇa, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer the attachment from matter to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. But that attachment is very rare.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

So our business is, spiritual master's business is, how to help the disciple to transfer the attachment. It is not that we are creating an, it, artificially, no. The attachment quality is there. But it is being mixed up with material things. And if you purify this material contamination, then the attachment become pure, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the water falls from the sky. It is distilled water. And as soon as it is in touch with the ground it becomes muddy, dirty. Again that water, if you distill, again it becomes distilled water, as good as the rain water, original. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. All the dirty things of designation should be cleansed. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. When the mind is cleansed, nirmalam, without any dirty thing, then you can begin bhakti immediately, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. So bhakti means cleansing process. Originally, distilled water from the sky, in touch with the ground, it is muddy. You filter it or distill it; it becomes original. The consciousness is there, but it has become muddy. You cleanse it; it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed. When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water. Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not add water. So this material enjoyment, illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, gambling, one should be free from these water-like things while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding water. Then it will be useless waste of time. Anartha upaśamam. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. Bhakti-yogam means anartha, unwanted things, upaśamam, subsiding. This is anartha. Just like we don't eat meat. Are we dying for want of meat? But they have taken it that without eating meat they will die. This is nonsense. And they are maintaining so many slaughterhouses, committing sinful life, only for misunderstanding. They do not see that "Here are some persons. They do not eat meat. They look very bright-faced. Why should I eat meat?" Anartha, unnecessarily, simply for the taste of the tongue, they are committing so much sinful activities. So just we are teaching, "Just control your tongue." That is called śamaḥ damaḥ." Because the tongue wants something, I have to eat, give it--that is not human civilization. If I control my tongue--tongue wants this thing; I say, "No, not this thing; you take this thing,"--then you are master. You are master of the senses. Otherwise you are servant of the senses. Because some of my senses want something... That is natural. But if I can control: "No, this not. This," that is called śamaḥ, damaḥ. And if I become victim of the dictation of the senses, then I cannot make progress in my spiritual life; I am third-class, fourth-class man. Mind wants to steal something. If you can control, "No, why stealing?" Then you are master. (end)

 

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman                 July 5, 1975, Chicago                                           401228

Śrī Govinda: Lt. Mozee.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.

Śrī Govinda: He's with the Chicago police department, and he's in charge of developing their relationship with the media. And I was thinking there could be nice discussion with him concerning your ideas about stopping crime.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. So I shall explain or he will enquire?

Jayatīrtha: Would you like to ask some questions or have him explain?

Lt. Mozee: Well, no, I understand the spiritual leader had some ideas on how to prevent crime, how to do these things. I might inquire after he gives his ideas. I understand you read the...

Prabhupāda: It is not idea, it is fact that one man is very pious and one man is very vicious. What is the difference? The difference is: one is dirty in his heart and one is pure in his heart. So if you keep people dirty, then there will be crimes. This is the sign that the general people, they are dirty. So you have to purify the dirty things, diseased condition. Then things will be all right. So our simplest process is to assemble in congregation and chant the holy name of God. Then dirty things will go away. So if you want to stop crime, then you have to arrange for mass saìkīrtana. That is our movement. Gather people as large as can be possible and congregationally chant the holy name of God. Then it will be all right.

Lt. Mozee: Do you have any feeling about the crime here in the United States as opposed to the crime in your own land?

Prabhupāda: Crime, what is your definition of crime?

Lt. Mozee: Any infraction against one person by another person. Any trampling on the rights of one person by another person can be a crime or should be a crime.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our definition is the same in the Upaniṣad, that everything belongs to God. As you think everything belongs to the state, we think everything belongs to God. So you can utilize your possession, what is alloted to you. Don't encroach upon others. So people are not thinking in that way. First beginning is that you Americans, you are thinking this America land is your, although two hundred years ago it was not your. You have come from other parts of the world. Now you are claiming it is your land. But actually it is God's land. So God's land belongs to everyone. Everyone is God's children. That is our broad conception. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: "Everything belongs to God." So people have no conception of God. Everyone is practically godless. Therefore they should be educated about God. Just like the Communists. They are educating godlessness. Similarly... Just like in America they say, your government says, "We trust in God." Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But where is the education about God? Simply, trust is also good, very good, but simple trust will not endure unless you know scientifically what is God. Everyone knows that he has got a father, but he does not know who is his father. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone who is born in this material world must have a father, but that is not sufficient suggestion. One must know who is father. That education is lacking.

Lt. Mozee: Do you feel, sir, that it is lacking only here in the United States?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Lt. Mozee: Everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. This is the age of forgetting God. We say it is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of misunderstanding. And that is, I said, dirty things within the heart. So God is so powerful that if we chant the holy name of God, then we become purified. So our movement is based on this principle, chant the holy name of God. We give all facilities to everyone without any distinction that "You come with us. Come in our temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and take little prasādam, refreshment, and gradually you become purified." So if the government authorities give us facilities for this business, that we hold mass saìkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them little prasādam, then we are sure the whole place will change.

Lt. Mozee: If I understand you then correctly, sir, you would say that the emphasis should be returned to the religious aspects.

Prabhupāda: Certainly. Without religious aspect what is the difference between dog and man? Man can be turned to be a religious man, the dog cannot be. That is the difference between dog and man. So if you keep the human society to the status of dogs and cats, how you can expect peaceful society? If you bring one dozen of dogs and if you want to keep them peacefully, is it possible? So if we keep human society as dogs, then how you can expect peacefulness?

Lt. Mozee: Some of my questions might sound disrespectful. If they do it is only because I do not understand completely your religious beliefs, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not my religious belief. I am just giving you general description of religious life and animal life. The animal cannot be taken to the churches and teach something about God. It is not possible. But a human being can be. So if the human being is refused this facility, then you keep them as cats and dogs. And you cannot expect any peaceful condition of life in the society of cats and dogs. So therefore it is the duty of the authority, of the government, of the elderly person, father, guardian, to teach the subordinate how to become God conscious. Otherwise, there will be trouble because there is no difference between dogs and man in every respect. The dog eats, we eat. The dog sleeps, we sleep. The dog have sex, we have sex. The dog also tries to defend itself, we also try to defend ourself. These are common factors. The only difference is the dog cannot be instructed about his relation with God, but man can be instructed.

Lt. Mozee: It would seem to me that in the days that we live in, I would say that the wolf, the animal, wolf, has more peacefulness than man. The wolf does not encroach upon another's territory...

Prabhupāda: Then you can say a stone has got more peacefulness than man.

Lt. Mozee: In today's society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you keep a stone a stone. That's all right. Wolf may be qualified with peacefulness, but after all, it is animal. You cannot say because it is peaceful for the time being, therefore it is not animal. It is animal.

Lt. Mozee: Wouldn't that sort of peace be a precursor to a return to religion? Must we not first have peace?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the difficulty. We do not know the meaning of religion. At the present moment the human society does not know what is the meaning of religion. The meaning of religion is to abide by the laws of God, just like a good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state, of the government. Because we have no understanding of God, therefore we do not know what is the laws of God, and therefore we do not know what is religion. That is the present status of the human society. They are forgetting religion. They take religion as a kind of faith. Faith may be blind faith. Faith is not the real description of religion. Religion means the laws which is given by God, and anyone who follows the laws, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or Muslim. If he follows the laws of God, then he is religious.

Lt. Mozee: Again I say I mean no disrespect, but in India, where the religious customs have been followed for centuries upon centuries, we are seeing a, not a return, but we are seeing a drawing away. We are seeing a drawing away from the spiritual world and the spiritual life in today's society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is due to bad leadership. Otherwise, Indian mass of people, they are fully conscious of God and they try to follow the laws of God, the mass of people. Here even the big, big professor, they do not believe in God, they do not believe in next life. But India, even the poorest man, he knows that "There is God. There is next life. If I commit sinful life I will suffer. If I live piously, then I shall enjoy." Even the low-grade society, social man, he believes it. Still if there is some disagreement, the village people go to the temple for settlement, and the opposite parties will hesitate to speak lies before the temple, still. So in that respect India is still 80 percent religious, 80 percent religious. That is the special privilege of taking birth in India. That is a fact.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra,

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

Anyone who has taken birth in India, his business is to make his life perfect and distribute the knowledge all over the world.

Lt. Mozee: Sir, do you think that the wealth of the United States and some certain other countries would be a block to spiritual faith? In Christianity there is a parable that "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to come before the throne of God." Would wealth in itself be a block toward spiritual awareness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much wealthy condition is a block. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. If one is very materially opulent, he forgets God. Therefore, to be too much materially rich is a disqualification for understanding God. Although there is no more impediment, that "Only the poor man will understand God and rich man will not understand," it is not that. But generally, if one is extraordinarily rich or his one aim is only to acquire money, it is difficult for him to understand God. Bhogaiśvarya... Find out this verse,

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

samādhau na vidhīyate

Another place, I think in the Bible, "God is available for the humble and meek"? What is that? Is there such statement? So the rich person is neither humble nor meek. He is always proud and puffed up unnecessarily. So it is very difficult for...

Jayatīrtha: Christ says that "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: "The meek shall inherit the earth." Because they're meek therefore everything will come to them.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Brahmānanda:

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

samādhau na vidhīyate

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

Lt. Mozee: Um hm. Well, those who believe in our country in Christianity believe these things. I don't see the vast differences between the spiritual belief of one religious group as opposed to another.

Prabhupāda: We don't say that. We don't say that. We say that you follow any religious system. Doesn't matter. But you understand God and love Him. That is our propaganda. We do not say that "You are Christian. This is not good. You come here." We do not say. Why say? Everything is... But our proposition is that either you are Christian or Muslim or Hindu, it doesn't matter. You understand God and love Him, that's all.

Lt. Mozee: I recognize, sir, that your time is very valuable and I won't delay you much longer. If I could return to my original purpose for coming in the..., what words you may have that would assist us, my superintendent and my department, in the reduction of crime, other than, I recognize, that the first and the foremost way would be a return to God as you said, that there is no doubt about that. But is there something else that you may know or that you may feel that you may be able to say that would assist us in a reduction less than the ideal?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already in the beginning said, that give us facilities, the authorities, to chant the holy name of God and distribute prasādam. Prasādam means...

Lt. Mozee: Yes, I understand.

Prabhupāda: ...some refreshment as remnants of foodstuff of God. Then it will make tremendous change. I came from India alone; now I have got so many followers. So what did I do? I did the same thing. I asked them to sit down, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and distribute them little prasādam. This should be done in a mass scale, and then things will become very peaceful. It is fact. So I want little cooperation of the authorities to give me the facility, how I can call many men together, chant together Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and I supply them little refreshment, that's all.

Lt. Mozee: I will definitely convey your message to my superiors.

Prabhupāda: So you give us this facility.

Lt. Mozee: Where would you...? Do you have any ideas where you would want...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yesterday the mayor of this place came. Here is a house vacant. So if we get this house, then we can begin in a mass scale. The America is not poor. So at least on experimental stage the government or the municipality can give us this house and arrange for some prasādam. Simple prasāda we give, not costly. We don't use meat or anything.

Lt. Mozee: Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Vegetable, grains, that's all. But something must be given. This is our program. So I saw yesterday the mayor. He came also very kindly. And you have come. So you consult yourself. This place or any place, give us some facility and see the result.

Lt. Mozee: Would you say that it should be done in an area of affluence or an area of poverty to begin with?

Prabhupāda: No, we have no distinction, such, but a place which is easily available for all kinds of men, that is very nice. There is no such condition that the only poor man will take benefit and the rich man, they do not require. Everyone requires. Do you think that the criminality is only in the poorer section?

Lt. Mozee: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: Then? Everyone is a criminal, either he is a poor man or rich man. So we should not make such distinction, that only it is meant for the poor man.

Lt. Mozee: No, the distinction I was attempting to draw was would there be more benefit, would there be more of an influence, or would there be more of a strengthening if it were in an area of affluence rather than an area of poverty or vice versa?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, that's... Our treatment is for the diseased person. So diseased person does not make any distinction of poor man and rich man. Rich man is also diseased, and poor man is also diseased, and everyone should be admitted in the hospital. So hospital should be in such a place where the poor man and rich man, both of them can come because all of them are diseased. So when one comes to the hospital there is no such thing as a poor man's hospital or rich man's. Hospital is hospital. And everyone being diseased, everyone should take advantage. But the difficulty is, as we are quoting the passage, that rich man, he thinks that he is not diseased. Although he is diseased number one, but he thinks that he is not diseased. That is the difficulty of the rich man. But we are thinking everyone is diseased. And you know better than me being police. There are criminality amongst rich men and poor men alike.

Lt. Mozee: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So our process is to cleanse the heart, not the opulence or poverty. No, that is not our... To cleanse the heart. If the poor man is cleansed in his heart he will not touch anybody's property. I heard that King, Emperor Edward VII, his habit was to steal.

Lt. Mozee: Yes, he was a kleptomaniac. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And I have known many instances. In Calcutta one very rich man's son in the evening he would take his bath and dress nicely, and he would go to the Howrah station and beg, cheat men: "I have lost my purse. Will you kindly help me?" And any gentleman: "He has lost..." And he will go to the restaurant and eat and go home. That was his habit. He was a very rich man, but his habit was this. So we have to change the habit by changing the heart. You know very well. Many thieves, they have committed many times theft and put into the jail. So he knows that "If I commit theft, I will go to the jail." He has practically seen it, and he knows it. Still, he steals. Why? Because heart is unclean. So this process will cleanse the heart. Unless he cleans the heart, you cannot stop criminality simply by laws. Laws are already known. The professional thief, he knows the law. The professional murderer, he knows the law. But still, he commits because heart is unclean. And our process, to cleanse the heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, it is Sanskrit, "Cleansing the heart." Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam, "Then all the troubles of this material world will be solved."

Lt. Mozee: A very difficult task, sir.

Prabhupāda: It is not difficult, very simple task. To ask them "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and take sumptuously prasādam, go home"--where is the difficulty? And they are coming; we are doing that. But we are doing--because we have no money--we are doing on a small scale. But if the government gives us facility we can expand this scale. That's all. We are collecting money... Of course we are doing our business by selling these books. We have got many books. And we are inviting men; they are coming, and gradually increasing. There is no dearth of men or devotees. But the government is faced with these difficulties, "Crime, why and what to do?" So we are suggesting this: because they are unclean in their heart, therefore there is crime and take this process, it will be successful. This is our... They are faced with the problem, "Why crime and what to do?" And we are giving the answer. So you take advantage of it. Why? We are saying, "Because they are godless." And what to do? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam. Now, if you like, you can take. Otherwise, we are doing our own business. Just like a poor medical man. He is also giving medicine. But if he is given facility, he can open a big hospital. So that is our proposition. We are already doing that business. But if we get facility from the authorities then we can open a big place, a big hospital. And the problem is already big. Otherwise, why they are saying, "What to do?"

Lt. Mozee: Well, there are...

Prabhupāda: No civil state wants this criminality. That's a fact. But they do not know how to stop it. That we can suggest. We are good advisor. Now, the government is the executor. So if they take our advice and execute it, then things will be done nicely.

Lt. Mozee: There are countless numbers in the United States of large facilities of the Christian faith, and, like you, they give the refreshment of the holy communion. Why does this not work? Why is this not cleansing the heart?

Prabhupāda: The answer is... Then we come to the details. So you say, "Christian," and I find to find out a Christian. I find difficulty to find out one Christian. I must frankly say, because the so-called Christians, they do not abide by the Bible's order that in the Christian's Bible it is said, "Thou shall not kill." and where is a Christian who does not kill? So this can be effective only persons who are practicing religion. So these persons, they are trained to practice. So their chanting of the holy name of God and others' are different. (break) It is not simply a rubber stamp position. It must be practiced, realized. This chanting of holy name by our men who are trained up and the same chanting by others will be different. Of course, if you... (break) ...your Hindu principle. That is secular state, not to remain callous: "Whatever you like you can do. We have no concern to see." That is not government's duty.

Lt. Mozee: Sir, isn't the difficulty, rather, that the group of, I want to call them, hard-core group, the priests, the devotees, the followers, the little circle of people, have always been the ones that have followed the practices, but the fringe... Assume for example that Hare Kṛṣṇa grew to gigantic proportions as Christianity has grown. Would not it be the problem that the fringe areas, the ones who were not, who professed to be the followers... Would not they be the difficulty as the Christian is today? You have said that you...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that possibility is always there. But my proposal is that if you are not true Christian, then your preaching will not be effective. I don't say that now we are strictly following and we will not fall down in future. I don't say that. That fall down propensity, tendency is always there. But my proposal is that unless one is strictly follower of the principles, his preaching will not be effective. That is my charge.

Lt. Mozee: Yes. Well sir, again I thank you for your time. I thank you for this interview. And I thank you for the opportunity to find out more about the group that is Hare Kṛṣṇa. And I will deliver this tape recording to my superiors. Hopefully, hopefully it will be effective...

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Lt. Mozee: ...as you are effective.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Prasādam. No, give him more. (laughter)

Lt. Mozee: This is what?

Upendra: Sandeśa.

Jayatīrtha: Made from milk.

Prabhupāda: There are so many program...

Lt. Mozee: Like a cheese?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Lt. Mozee: A sweet cheese.

Devotees: Yes, sweet cheese. More?

Lt. Mozee: No, this is fine, thank you.

Prabhupāda: You take one more of this cheese.

Lt. Mozee: All right. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Give the devotees.

Lt. Mozee: Just a personal question, how long has your group been in the United States?

Prabhupāda: I came here in 1965. But for one year there was no program; I was loitering only. And then, in 1966, July, I registered this society in New York, and gradually these students... I rented one storefront in New York, Second Avenue, and in this way practically it was started in 1966. Then in 1967 I was attacked with heart attack. Then I returned India. Then again I came back in 1968. So practically the movement is going on regularly from 1968. Yes.

Lt. Mozee: Do you find that you have--again, a personal thing--do you find that you are having difficulty disassociating yourself with false prophets like the Guruji?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept. We don't. Because...

Lt. Mozee: I mean disassociating your group with a man like that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly, we disassociate. We have no very good opinion.

Lt. Mozee: It would seem to me that it would be a very difficult thing...

Prabhupāda: Yes, for others to distinguish.

Lt. Mozee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But one has to see by the result.

Lt. Mozee: Um hm.

Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate. It is very difficult to distinguish which is good medicine, which is bad medicine. By the effect. Thank you.

Lt. Mozee: I thank you for your time, sir.

Prabhupāda: Give him this garland.

Lt. Mozee: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) I saw on the airplane. So it has struck me, yes, that this is the position of the human society.

Lt. Mozee: Yeah, Govinda dāsa told me that you had read this on your way in, so I brought a copy. I didn't know whether you wanted to quote from it. But I was ready to be prepa... I was prepared.

Prabhupāda: You have read it?

Lt. Mozee: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: It is a problem. Actually it is a problem. Such a rich state as America, and there is crime. It does not look well. Yes.

Lt. Mozee: Hm. True. It's our number one problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the solution.

Lt. Mozee: It's our number one problem. Now, when the people see the politician and the affluent stealing they say, "Why not? It's good for them; it's good for me." Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                 July 6, 1975, Chicago                                                              401534

Jagadīśa: (in car) ...discussed with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and...

Prabhupāda: Why?

Jagadīśa: Because it would greatly facilitate my preaching.

Prabhupāda: You are already preaching.

Jagadīśa: But many of the devotees are not so inclined to listen to a householder, as to a sannyāsī.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Neither to the sannyāsīs.

                                                                                                                                                                        401579

Prabhupāda: ...any bird called thunderbird?

Bahulāśva: Thunderbird? A big bird, big eagle, in the United States.

Prabhupāda: No, big eagle, thunderbird. You have seen in this car?

Brahmānanda: Automobile is called.

Prabhupāda: But actually is there any bird called thunderbird?

Jagadīśa: It's a legendary bird from Indian legend. American Indian.

Prabhupāda: Indian legend?

Brahmānanda: Of the American Indians, the red Indians. Sometimes their chiefs are called Chief Thunderbird. It's a popular name for their chiefs.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. We have got an idea of thunderbird. The bird flies in the, near the cloud in expectation of water, and they are not afraid of thunder. That is called cataka. That example is given by Rūpa Gosvāmī. The cataka does not take water from ground. They will take water when it falls from the cloud. So in the beginning of every cloud there is thunder. So this bird, because they expecting water from the cloud, the cloud is giving him thunder, but still he does not, will not take water from ground.

Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: In what connection do the Gosvāmīs use that example to illustrate?

Prabhupāda: Example means a devotee will take mercy from Kṛṣṇa, not from the material world. Even there is thunder, Kṛṣṇa does not give mercy but puts him into difficulty, still, he will not take any mercy from the material world. This is the ex... (break)

Morning Walk                                                July 8, 1975, Chicago                                                               401618

Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...but to engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service. Our knowledge in spiritual life and your help, material opulence, combined together, there will be great change in the whole world. Cooperate with us. There is no loss on your part, but there is great benefit to the whole world. Try to convince them. Although they are not very big authority, but still through them, you can approach bigger authorities. (break) ...big churches, no use, no utility. (break) ...speak, andha-kaïja-nyāya. Andha-kaïja-nyāya, you know that, the lame man and the blind man?

Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So America is blind, and we are lame. So let us get on the shoulder of the American blind and give him direction, and both will be benefited. The whole world will be benefited. The America, blind, he cannot see where he is going. (chuckles) And for want of money we cannot make progress. So let the Americans take on the shoulder this lame man, and I will give direction, "Go this way. Go this way." Everything will be all right. Andha-kaïja-nyāya. (break) ...nice building, churches, there is no use. Take our direction. Everything will be all right. (break) ...take our direction, what is the loss on their part? Hmm? What is the possible loss? Why they will deny to take our direction? (break) (out of car:) Tell them about this andha-kaïja-nyāya.

Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda was talking about the fact that the western world is blind and India is lame for lack of money. But by a combination there is very good effect. So if the western world takes us on its shoulders...

Prabhupāda: Especially America.

Jayatīrtha: Especially America. On its shoulders then we can give, Prabhupāda can give direction, and they can provide the resources. America will provide the resources, and we will provide the direction. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...mayor and the police officers, through them, try to approach higher authorities. And what is that? We met yesterday?

Harikesa: The public relations?

Prabhupāda: Ah, public relation. So convince them to..., the Americans should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the shoulder, and because the Americans are blind, we shall give them direction on the shoulder, "Go this way. Go this way." So blind and the lame man combined together will perform a great task. (break) ...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. (break) ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence--everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice. Early morning till night, we are always thinking, "How people will be happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" And they are coming here for rowing boat. You see? How blind they are! The human life, so intelligent life, and they are utilizing for rowing boat. How blind they are! Not a single moment to be wasted and they are simply finding out, "How to waste time?" (break) ...is "Crime, what to do?" "Hippies, what to do?" "Problems, what to do?" Why "What to do?" Here is a direction. Do like this." "No, sir, that I will not do." (break)

...to take photo.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśakha, take photo. (break)

Prabhupāda: And the steps...

Harikeśa: The steps also.

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. Our lake in Māyāpur we shall make like this, all sides clear and four sides, the steps, ghāṭa, and garden.

Viśakha: Four sides, the steps?

Prabhupāda: These steps, you see? Here, there... There is no... Just opposite.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four corners.

Prabhupāda: Four... Not four corners. Four sides.

Viśakha: And also with that in the center? Island?

Prabhupāda: No, island is not required. Make a program like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take photos.

Prabhupāda: And if possible, send them ideas and direction. Bhavānanda has gone. (break) ...convince them that they are doing very nice, to their best capacity, but they are doing it blindly. You are very good driver, but if you are a blind man, then how you will drive? You will create disaster. So we can open their eyes so that their good driving capacity will be properly utilized. A good driver, blind, what he will do? Ajïāna-timirāndhasya. Darkness, it will not help. The western method of seeing things--blind eyes. Actually, they are blind. They are trying to see things with microscope. First of all you are blind. What you will see? Microscope, this machine or that machine, but you are blind. That they do not know. (break)

Devotee: What should I do if I'd like to preach more and become free from my family entanglements?

Prabhupāda: Just teach him what to do. Tell him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his ques... What should you do...?

Devotee: I want to preach more and become free from my family entanglement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Jagadīśa is having some preaching programs. So your family is no hindrance. Preaching is not hindered by family, one way or the other.

Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. Why don't you understand? Preaching cannot be checked by anything--if you want to preach. In any circumstances you can preach. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Preaching can be executed by four things: by your life, by your money, by your intelligence, and by your words. You have got so many assets. So you can utilize it for preaching. Dedicate your life. If you think that you are family man, you cannot dedicate twenty-four hours, then earn money and give it to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as other family men, they are earning money. Eh? Is it not? You can earn. In America there is good facility for earning money. They want that you work and take money. So earn money as gṛhastha and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair. If you cannot earn money, then use your intelligence. There are so many intellectual work: publication, going to this officer, that officer. You, intellectually you try. And vācā, by words. If you cannot do anything, go anyone, anywhere and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just offer your obeisances." Finished. So where is the scarcity? You can serve Kṛṣṇa in any capacity--provided you want to serve. And if you want to engage Kṛṣṇa for your service, that is blunder. Then it is blunder. You cannot engage Kṛṣṇa to your service. The everyone is trying to engage Kṛṣṇa for his service. They are going to the church, "O Kṛṣṇa, give us our daily bread," that "You serve me. You give us our daily bread and serve me." And our proposition is, Yaśodāmayī, "Kṛṣṇa, You are playing all day. Come on! Take food first of all." This is service. They are going to Kṛṣṇa for asking daily bread. And here Yaśodāmayī is commanding, "Come here! If You don't eat, You will get lean and thin. Come on." This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Devotee: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is concerned, "How Kṛṣṇa will keep good health?" And we are concerned, "Kṛṣṇa will go to hell. Please supply me food so that I might keep my health good." That is the difference between materialistic and spiritualist. The foolish man does not understand that Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to the elephant, to the ant, and why I shall go to the church for asking my food? It is already there. And our policy is, "Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." We create problem. Otherwise, no problem. Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Just see so many fruits for the birds. They are so sumptuously supplied, they are thrown. Pūrṇam idam. Everything is sufficient. But these rascal blind, they do not know. They are trying to adjust. What adjustment? It is already sufficient. You are misusing that. Sufficient land, sufficient intelligence. Everything is sufficient. They are misusing. In Africa, in Australia, sufficient land, and they are raising cattle to kill them. This is their intelligence. And growing coffee and tea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco.

Devotee: For money, for profit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco.

Prabhupāda: Tobacco, by which... They know tobacco is bad, and they are utilizing time for growing tobacco and smoking tobacco. This is their intelligence. So blind men... Give them intelligence, these rascals. We call therefore only rascals. People are dying for want of food grains, and they are growing tobacco, which smoking, they will go to hell. This is their intelligence. Huh? What do you think?

Satsvarūpa: I agree.

Prabhupāda: This is the idea.

Sudāmā: And they even indicate, Prabhupāda, on the advertisements that smoking is hazardous for the health.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...for money, the money which will push them to hell. This is their intelligence. We have to give them intelligence, open their eyes. (break) ...angry first of all because mūrkhāyo 'padeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye: "If you give good intelligence to the fools and rascals, they will be angry." But still, you have to do it. Just like when Nityānanda Prabhu went to Jagāi-Mādhāi to deliver them, they became angry and injured. So that is preacher. These rascals will be angry, will sometimes do harm to you, and still, you have to do it. That is preaching. Are you understanding what is preaching? Yes. You have to prepare like that. At all risk you have to preach. (break) ...world is full of rascals, and you have to educate them. So according to one's capacity let them preach, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. But everyone can preach to some extent. There is no hindrance.

Jaga-jīvana: Is everything done in our movement for preaching? Everything that is done in our movement is done for preaching?

Prabhupāda: Yes. To awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are in dog consciousness; we have to raise them to God consciousness. Don't you see how much they are taking care of the dog? Because they do not know, blind, whether they will be God conscious or dog conscious. So the dog conscious people should be raised to the platform of God conscious. That is preaching. Mūòha nābhijānāti. These rascals, they do not know the life is meant for understanding God. That they... Ask anyone. Nobody knows. They are so fool. They want to remain dog. The dog is also running; they are also running. And because they can run on by car, they are thinking they are civilized. But the business is running, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the purpose for the running is the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eating, sleeping, mating and defending.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...condemn running by car, but utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That we want. If the purpose is same, like dog, then what is the use of running by car? (break) ...by car to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...not after that philosophy, that jagan mithyā brahma satya, no. We say jagat is also satya because brahma satya, the jagat is also satya. It is mithyā because it is improperly utilized. Let it be utilized properly, it is also truth. It is truth actually. You cannot say, "This is a false tree." This is the ignorance. How it is false? But it is being misused. That is false. You cannot misuse anything which is given by God. You should properly utilize it. Then it is truth. And as soon as you misuse it, it is untruth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So material consciousness is false.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. That is our preaching. That is truth. There is a nice car. Why shall I condemn it? Utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is truth. And the Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say, "It is untruth. Give it up." No. When you have produced something by your good intelligence, it is truth, but when you use it for other purpose than Kṛṣṇa, then it is false. (break) ...Deity nicely decorated, if I say, "It is all false," is that very good sense? They have created such a nice thing. No, the purpose for which you have created or utilized, that is false. So we want to change the consciousness. We don't condemn the thing. (break) ...with a knife you are cutting vegetables and utilizing, but if you use it for cutting your throat, that is bad. That is bad. So they are using the knife for cutting their own throat. This is bad. (break) The śāstra says, nidrāham ādyaṁ plavaṁ sukalpam. This body... We are just crossing the ocean of nescience. So this body is a good boat. māyā ete 'rtaṁ guruḥ karṇa-dharam. And the wind is favorable, Kṛṣṇa's instruction. And the captain is guru. He is guiding you. With all these facilities, if you cannot cross the nescience, then you are cutting your throat. (break) ...boat is there, the captain is there, the favorable wind is there, but we are not utilizing it. That means I am killing myself. (break) ...nity. is there. (break) ...policy. The policy is suicidal. That is the defect. So preaching means to remove this defect and utilize the policy for going ahead. (break)

Devotee: Is it because of our impurity that we can't convince them to stop cutting their throat?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question is whether is it due to our impurity that we cannot convince people to stop cutting their throats.

Prabhupāda: No, it is due to their impurity, they do not take. What you are saying, that is pure. But the difficulty is if you instruct a rascal, he becomes angry. The example is given that if you give milk and banana to the serpent, he increases his poison. Payaḥ-panaṁ bhujaìganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. Therefore we have to select sometimes that our preaching is in the proper place. Because a snake-like person, they will not hear. But if you are a good charmer, you can charm the snake also. (laughter) That depends on your quality. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did. He made these snakes, the tigers, the elephants, all dancing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is possible by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tripurāri: Just like you have charmed all of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Well, I am not going to imitate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (laughs) I have come to New York, not to the jungle. (laughter)

Sudāmā: New York is worse than jungle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is called an asphalt jungle.

Prabhupāda: After all, they are human being. Therefore we have collected some nice souls. (break) If you can go to the jungle, that is no hindrance, but let us take the opportunity of the civilized nations, preach them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. They are leading the whole civilization. If they are convinced, it will be great benefit to the human race. (break) Also my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go to the western country." If he had said that "You go to the jungle," I would have gone. (break) ...preacher, either the jungle or the city is the same. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ na kutaścana bibhayati. One who is devotee of the Lord, he does not make any discrimination that "This is jungle and this is city." Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. For them, everywhere, Kṛṣṇa's property. So where Kṛṣṇa asks him to go and serve, he will go. That's all. (break)

Jaga-jīvana: All classes of men should preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all he must know what to preach. If he does not know what to preach, what he will preach? You have got a preaching capacity, provided you learn the art of preaching. But everyone can preach. That's a fact.

Devotee: What is to become of those devotees that leave ISKCON and take to breaking the regulative principles, and stop chanting sixteen rounds?

Prabhupāda: Explain.

Devotee: There are even brāhmaṇas in our temple who have left the temple and they are acting just like karmīs.

Prabhupāda: So they were wrongly initiated. We want recommendation from the authority, whether one should be initiated, but they gave wrong information. That is the defect of the informer. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Hari-nāma initiation can be a little more liberal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But brāhmaṇa initiation should be strict.

Prabhupāda: Very strict. Very strict means he must be observed that he is actually chanting sixteen rounds, following the regulative principles. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those are the important...?

Prabhupāda: These are the criterions, that he is actually, seriously doing this. Then he can be initiated. Otherwise useless. He will fall down. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...stated that one who does not, an unsuccessful person in yoga practice takes his next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but you are fallen. Who take birth in high family or in opulent, that is the fallen condition. That is not successful con... But they are taking, "This is success. I have got so much money. I have got so much prestige. This is success."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fallen condition.

Prabhupāda: That is fallen condition.

Devotee: They think that is the success of life.

Prabhupāda: They think. They are foolish. They can think like that. Generally, that is... Not that devotees are not opulent. No, that is not. But this materialistic opulence means fallen condition.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The demigods are in a very opulent position also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are devotees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are devotees, not fallen.

Prabhupāda: They can fall. Everyone can fall. (break)

Tripurāri: ...says that a sannyāsī should not take, be anxious for disciples but should only take those who are qualified. But sometimes, when there's no one qualified, he takes a risk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One who does not like to take the risk, they do not take the risk of preaching. But one who takes the risk, he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa immediately, "Oh, he is taking risk." But he must know where to take risk and where to act foolishly. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu took the risk of being injured. But He was certain that "I can deliver him." That is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took a great risk also, Prabhupāda, by coming to us.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. I have already written that. I was thinking that "What shall I do here? I have come here. As soon as I shall impose these four principles they will say, 'Go home.' " But I took that risk. ^ I never said anything palatable. Against their activities, "You don't do this, don't do this." (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...compromised at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, what is the use of compromise if there is no good result?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone who compromises, he actually wants followers.

Prabhupāda: That is not good. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu decried, na dhanaṁ na janam, "I don't want these followers." What is the use of follower if he does not follow? (break) ...idam. Everything is sufficient, complete. Why they are embarrassed with incompleteness? Everyone is trying to adjust incompletness, but the Vedic information, "Everything is complete." That means lacking knowledge. The car is complete. One who does not know to drive, he will find it incomplete, "Where to push on, this way, that way." He does not know how to drive the car. (end)

 

Television Interview                                        July 9, 1975, Chicago                                                             401702                                                                                                                                                               

Woman reporter: When you came to Chicago last week you said you were going to tell us some of the solutions to our problems in this country. Can you tell me what some of those solutions are?

Prabhupāda: Solution not only of your country or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.

Nitāi:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class man. Then second-class man?

Nitāi:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas."

Prabhupāda: This is second-class. And then third-class?

Nitāi:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

Prabhupāda: That is fourth-class. First of all, third-class.

Nitāi: Third-class: "Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas,..."

Prabhupāda: Not cattle raising, cow protection.

Nitāi: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body--the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs--all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupāda: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband.

Woman reporter: Would you say that women are inferior to men?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman reporter: Why?

Prabhupāda: By physiological condition. Just like you are. Your bodily features are different from the man's features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny it?

Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That is material. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially... Just like your bodily feature and a man's bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different.

Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people?

Prabhupāda: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No.

Prabhupāda: Physically... Therefore there are so many things which is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you can say that they are of the same nature?

Woman reporter: I'm not saying they're the same. What can...

Prabhupāda: Then if you not saying that, then they are different in their physiological condition. So now this physiological condition, you may calculate, "This is better, this is better." That is your calculation. Our calculation is the man and woman are different in their physiological condition.

Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.

Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?

Prabhupāda: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.

Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to men?

Prabhupāda: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.

Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with men.

Prabhupāda: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man's functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told you that the husband and wife--the wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How you can change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is it possible? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No, it is not.

Prabhupāda: Then by nature one has to function differently from the other.

Woman reporter: But why does this mean...?

Prabhupāda: So how you can change?

Woman reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be subordinate?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman reporter: Just because they bear children and men can't?

Prabhupāda: Well, by nature... No, as soon as you get children, you require support from the husband. Otherwise you are in difficulty.

Woman reporter: Many women have children and have no support from husbands. They have no husband.

Prabhupāda: Then they have to take support from others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving you support. But the government is embarrassed. If the husband supports the wife and children, the government is relieved of so much welfare contribution. So that is a problem.

Woman reporter: What happens when women support men?

Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand that you depend. The... After man and woman unite, there is children, and the man goes away, and you are embarrassed. The woman is embarrassed. Why? Why this is, is made possible? A man and woman unites, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the husband goes away. Then the poor woman is embarrassed with the child. She has to beg from the government. So do you think it is very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that woman should be married to a man and the man should take charge of the woman and the children independently so that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public.

Woman reporter: Do you think the social unrest...

Prabhupāda: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer. Simply you go on questioning. I question you, do you think this burden to the government or the public is good?

Woman reporter: I don't understand what you're saying.

Nitāi: Do you think that the burden caused when the husband goes away from the wife, that burden to the government is good?

Woman reporter: No.

Prabhupāda: So that has happened. Because the woman does not agree to be subordinate--she wants equal freedom--so the husband goes away and the woman is embarrassed with the children. And it becomes a burden to the government.

Woman reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman works?

Prabhupāda: There are so many things wrong. But first thing is the wife, the woman, the wife of somebody, and the child born by somebody, they should become burden to the government or to the public. First of all answer this thing. Why she should become burden to the government? What is your answer? Do you think, from social point of view, this position of woman and the fatherless children are very nice thing? No.

Woman reporter: What I'm trying to say is that... This may happen to some women. I'm talking about women who are not...

Prabhupāda: Not... These are the general cases. You cannot say, "some." I see in America mostly the woman...

Woman reporter: Oh, then what you're saying is not all women should be subordinate to all men.

Prabhupāda: No, man should be subordinate to the man, woman, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then that woman is not a problem to the public.

Woman reporter: Is it true for all woman and all men?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. You take even in the dogs. The dogs they also take care of their children. The tigers, they take care of the children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the man goes away and she is embarrassed, she has to beg from the government, that is not a very good situation.

Woman reporter: What about women who do not have children?

Prabhupāda: Well, that is also another unnatural thing. Sometimes they use contraceptives. They kill children, abortion. That is also not very good. These are all sinful activities. These are sinful activities, to kill child in the womb. And take shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One has to suffer for that.

Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because...

Prabhupāda: Because of these things. They do not know that.

Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful.

Woman reporter: Thank you. It's late.

TV Cameraman: Any more questions?

Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same questions again, do not answer.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Nitāi: She's going to ask the same questions, but no need to answer. They're just going to photograph her. This is for on TV they will show her asking the questions. (break)

Woman reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia?

Prabhupāda: The same thing. I have got my temple there. I stay there, and I teach people according to my philosophy.

Woman reporter: Is Philadelphia your last stop in...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I travel all over United States. Then I will go to Europe. Then I will go to Africa. I have got my touring program for 4 months. (break)

Woman reporter: There's one more question I'm going to ask. Is that tea? Is that tea that you're drinking?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't drink tea. We don't drink tea, don't drink liquor. We don't smoke. This is our process, no illicit sex, no meat eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Unless one is married, there is no sex. And unless one is going to beget child, there is no sex. Not for pleasure. This is our regulative principle.

Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women, is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife.

Woman reporter: There is one more question.

Prabhupāda: Then the life will be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.

Woman reporter: Everyone should marry?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married. Therefore, according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.

Woman reporter: Is allowed?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one wife.

Woman reporter: There is one question I have for you. You say that a woman's brain is smaller than a man's.

Prabhupāda: Woman?

Nitāi: Woman's brain is smaller than a man's brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there is no woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big educationist. We don't find. They were all men.

Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country?

Prabhupāda: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful.

Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not been successful?

Prabhupāda: Well, there is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble.

Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?

Prabhupāda: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader.

Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.

Prabhupāda: They were not selected. The leader--formerly it was monarchy--the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.

Woman reporter: What about women who are elected by the people?

Prabhupāda: Well, people election... Just like you elected Nixon and then you wanted him to come down. So this kind of election has no value. Sometimes you elect and sometimes you pull down. So what is the value of this election?

Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected.

Prabhupāda: Elected, but not by this general public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need of dragging him down again.

Woman reporter: We have talked to scientists who say that the size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. Do you believe that?

Prabhupāda: I think that the scientists do not think like that. They keep the brain of a particular scientist to study. They keep the heart of a particular noble man. Why they try to study the heart and the brain if there is no difference?

Nitāi: Sometimes they keep the brain of a great scientist to study because they think that he is so intelligent, there must be something we can learn from studying the brain. So if they are thinking like that, then there also must be a difference between a woman's brain and a man's brain.

Woman reporter: What they say is that there is difference, but it has nothing to do with the size.

Nitāi: Then why do they keep great scientists' brain to study?

Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to study.

Nitāi: Especially great scientists, that they want to see what has made this man so intelligent.

Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true.

Prabhupāda: Then why they study the brain? What is the purpose of studying brain unless there is difference? You study different brains. Unless you feel that there is difference between this brain and that brain, why do you study. What is the meaning of study?

Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not necessarily differences between men and woman.

Prabhupāda: I don't say man or woman. But I say you study different brains--why? Unless you think there is some difference?

Woman reporter: There is difference.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if there is difference, then what is the harm if there is difference between man and woman's brain?

Woman reporter: They say there isn't.

Prabhupāda: They say, but the fact we have to study. As soon as you study the construction of different brain, then you must know that there is difference, different activities.

Woman reporter: In other words, you do not believe this, what they say.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you study different brain?

Woman reporter: I don't study them. I'm just telling you what the scientists say.

Prabhupāda: So scientists, the psychologist... As I was a student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that "By studying the brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man, sixty-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the statement of a big psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20.

Woman reporter: Oh, dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means... O.K. I see now what you're thinking about. That was many, many years ago.

Prabhupāda: So can you give any proof since then that the woman's... In 1920... She does not take it?

Nitāi: She does not take it. Somehow they think that the brain is no longer small. If it was small, then, it is not small today.

Prabhupāda: But where is the proof...

Woman reporter: You do not believe that there has been advancement of science since 1920?

Nitāi: Well, if the brain has been ascertained as being half the size then why should it change by now? Should it change?

Woman reporter: Well, do you think that the Romans weren't as tall as men are today?

Nitāi: No, but the... But then, within fifty years there is not going to be any change in the brain.

Woman reporter: Not in the 1900's. Why do you use the technology that you use? You didn't have cars in those days, this television. Things have changed since 1920.

Prabhupāda: So what change has become? Can you give any evidence that woman is more powerful in brain than the man during these years? Can you give any evidence?

Woman reporter: No, what I'm saying is that...

Prabhupāda: Now, can you give any evidence that woman has become more powerful than the man during these fifty years?

Woman reporter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Give me some tacit example.

Woman reporter: That she and I wouldn't be here if women weren't more powerful than they were fifty years ago.

Harikeśa: Now they are talking louder. (laughter)

Woman reporter: Than you. Thank you. (woman leaves)

Harikeśa: The scientists have the theory that the brain, the intelligence is measured by creases in the brain, creases, not by size.

Prabhupāda: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof?

Harikeśa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also increased.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat.

Harikeśa: They become upset because they cannot dominate you.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make progress.

Uttamaśloka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one does not agree to logic, does that mean that they are under the influence of tamo-guṇa?

Prabhupāda: That means he is animal.

Guest: Under the influence of who?

Uttamaśloka: Tamo-guṇa.

Harikeśa: It's the mode of ignorance.

Guest: Who?

Harikeśa: The mode of ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated man, they want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You must do it." And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference. (break) ...queens of Kṛṣṇa, they are giving statement as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. You have read that portion? When there was talk between Kuntī and queens of Kṛṣṇa, the queens presented themself as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: The men have become the servants of the women.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: Women's liberation has become successful because man is now the servant of woman.

Prabhupāda: It is not successful. That I was pointing out. It has caused the disaster because the whole women become dependent on the welfare gift of the government, and the government has to raise tax heavily for this purpose. The tax is given by the general public, but it is going for one individual person, and I have heard that government is embarrassed. They are now making enquiry about the welfare gifts.

Nitāi: There's many scandals there.

Prabhupāda: There are now so many scandals. So these are the problems. Why? The man leaves the woman uncared for.

Brahmānanda: One statistic has come that there are more people in this country receiving welfare than there are those who are employed in jobs outside of government. That means the government is actually spending for more people than... (break)

Prabhupāda: Is not that a problem to the government?

Nitāi: A huge problem.

Harikeśa: Taxes are very high. Everyone is complaining about taxes being too high.

Prabhupāda: Problem is already there and if they think it is not problem, then what can be said? By nature's way, if the husband takes care of the wife and children, this problem is solved immediately. But the man takes advantage. He goes away after making the woman pregnant. And the woman is embarrassed and the government is embarrassed.

Harikeśa: And the child grows up to be a criminal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hippies. That is another problem. So they are not far-seeing. The immediate benefit they want. What will be the effect? That is animal civilization. Animal cannot see what will be the future. Therefore we have to take advice from Kṛṣṇa. One who knows past, present, and future. Everything is there. We are spreading this knowledge, that "Take your council from Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy." That is our program.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we speak these things on television and the newspapers and people become angry, if all the people become angry like she does, is it still good propaganda for us?

Prabhupāda: No, then we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't make disturbance. But in the Bhagavad-gītā everything is discussed, this varṇa-saìkara and the first-class man, second-class man. If we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then we have to discuss. But if they do not like, better chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and don't discuss anything. But these things are discussed. If you are not agreeable to hear from Bhagavad-gītā, then let us chant together Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. But these things are discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā about varṇa-saìkara. If the population, varṇa-saìkara, is increased, then it becomes hell. So if you want to increase the hellish person, then don't discuss. But if you think it is a problem, then discuss.

Satsvarūpa: As a brāhmaṇa, we have to be truthful. When in Hong Kong they asked you what you thought of Guru Maharaji, you said you could not help yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I said that he is a great cheat. What can I say? And it has been proved now. (laughter) I said in my book, Easy Journey to Other..., that this moon excursion is childish, and it has been proved now. Now they don't talk about the moon excursion because they are failure. So ten years ago or more than that, I said that it is only childish. (end)

 

Press Conference                                              July 9, 1975, Chicago                                                            401945

Prabhupāda:

oṁ ajïāna-timirāndhasya

jïānāïjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

Ladies and gentlemen, regarding Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... (about microphone:) It is working? We are talking about the spiritual existence of the living being. By evolutionary process we come to the human form of life, and here we have got developed consciousness. We can decide now which way to go forward. There are different planetary system. That we can experience. We can see innumerable planets, upwards and downwards. So the upper planetary system is called Svargaloka, or the heavenly planets, and the middle planetary system is called Martyaloka or Bhurloka, in which we are staying at the present moment, and the down planetary system is called Pātālaloka or downwards. Downwards means fall down, upwards means getting promotion, and middle means we remain where we are now. That is... Indication is given in the Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā: "Those who are cultivating the modes of goodness, they are promoted to the higher planetary system." And madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. "Those who are passionate or under the modes of passion, they remain in the middle planetary system." And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ: "And those (whose) character is very abominable, they go down." And beyond this, there is another nature. That is called spiritual nature, which is beyond this material universe. There, we understand, that is eternal. This material nature is not eternal. It is manifested or created, and again it is dissolved or annihilated. But beyond this material nature, there is another nature. There are also innumerable planets. They are known as Vaikuṇṭha planets or Vṛndāvana planets. That is the kingdom of God. If we transfer ourself to that eternal nature, then we won't have to come back to this material nature again. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. Anyone who goes to that eternal nature, he hasn't got to come back again to this material nature. The material nature has been explained as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. Material nature is full of miserable condition. And the most miserable condition is explained as janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: birth, death, old age and disease. So we living entities, we are eternal, part and parcel of God. God is eternal and we are also eternal. Just like gold and little portion of gold. Both of them are gold, but the big gold and the small gold, that is different. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, qualitatively we are one; quantitatively we are different. Although we are different, still, in the spiritual world we can enjoy the same facilities in cooperation with God. We are trying to be happy in this material world. That is not possible. Because here there are four principles of miserable condition, which we cannot avoid. They are birth, death, old age and disease. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore in this life, in the human form of life, where we come after evolutionary process, 8,400,000 species of life, our consciousness being developed, we should decide now whether we shall remain within this material world or we shall go to the spiritual world where the life is eternal. There is no birth, death, old age and disease. So the Vedic civilization trains all human being how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is Vedic civilization. We cannot be happy in this temporary material life. We are working very hard, but if we work a little only, not very hard, there is no need of working very hard. We have created a civilization that we have to work very hard. The Vedic civilization does not recommend that for sense gratification, you shall simply work very hard, day and night. This is not very good life. You should know what is the value of life, what is the aim of life. God has provided everything for our living condition. We should be satisfied, whatever is alloted by God, and save time for being promoted to the spiritual world. That is the arrangement already there by nature. It is said,

pūrṇam idam pūrṇam adaḥ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

God is complete and His arrangement is also very complete. Everyone has his necessities of life completely. In the Vedas it is said that we are all living entities. God is also the chief living entity. The difference is that that one God, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, He supplies the necessities of all other living entities. In the Christian world also, they believe God gives bread to everyone, and they go to the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." But higher philosophy is that we should not or we need not ask God for our bread. That is already there. We should approach God, how to love Him. That is our business. Otherwise, God is supplying food to the elephant who can eat forty kilogram at a time, or forty kg. And the ant eats only one grain of sugar. So God is supplying all of them. So there is no question of asking God to give us our food. It is already there. We should not waste our time to ask God for our sense gratification. That arrangement is already there. We shall try to know God and try to love Him. That is the business of human form of life. If we are missing that occupational duty, how to learn how to love God... Our philosophy... Or this is the philosophy, that that is the first quality religious system which teaches how to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. And if we learn how to love God without any motive, nobody can check our love of God. And if we reach that platform, then we become actually happy. God is the supreme proprietor of everything, He is friend of everyone, and He is the enjoyer. We, being part and parcel of God, our duty is to serve God how He is pleased. Our... Just like part and parcel of our body, this finger, it is always engaged in serving the body according to the desire of the person. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, our duty is to serve God as He wants service from us. This is perfection. If the finger or any part of my body cannot give service to the whole body, it is to be understood that the part is diseased. Similarly, when we do not give service to God, that is our material condition, or diseased condition, or miserable condition. And if we learn how to love God, how to serve Him, that is our healthy condition. So in the material world everyone is busy how to satisfy the senses. Nobody is interested to satisfy God. So in this condition of life we are misled, misled in this way, that we have got this human form of body, very nice body, and if we are misled, instead of giving service to the Lord, if we simply are engaged in the service of the senses, then we become subject to the karma or fruitive activities. That means we get different types of body. There are 8,400,000 different types of body. So if we do not properly use this human form of body, if we become subjected to sinful life, then we get a different type of body, very--animal life, tree's life, plant's life, aquatic's life, insect life. Or even we are promoted to the higher standard of life, as in higher planets the demigods, the four principles of material miseries, namely birth, death, old age and disease, we cannot avoid, either in the higher planetary or in the lower planetary system. But if we want eternal life of bliss and knowledge, then we must endeavor in this life how to go back to home, back to Godhead. And such persons who are endeavoring for this purpose, they are called first-class men. And they are called brāhmaṇas or the first-class men. So society must be divided into four classes: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. That is general. Those who are endeavoring for realizing God, they are first-class men. Those who are less intelligent--they are trying to rule over the material world--they are second-class men. And those who are engaged in producing food and cow protection, they are third-class. And those who are useless for any of these three occupational duties, they are called fourth-class. And those who are still lower than that, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class, like that. So our educational system should be so arranged that there may be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men, not less than fourth-class men. Then the social structure will be in order and everyone will be peaceful, aiming at the point, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless there is such structure of the society... Just like in our body we have got four divisions, the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. All of them are required. But the position of the head and position of the leg are different. Head means giving direction, and arms means giving protection, and belly means receiving food for energy of the body, and leg means working. So the human society must be divided into four section, and they should work combinedly, cooperatively. Then there will be peaceful condition for realization of the goal of life, back to home, back to Godhead. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this process of life, and the whole world is now in chaos on account of no brain. Just like we have got this body. If the brain is not working in good condition, then he is called a madman. So in spite of possessing other parts of the body, namely, the arm, the belly, and the leg, if the head is not in good condition, then the body is useless. At this present moment there is want of first-class men and also second-class men. The whole world is filled up with third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class men. Therefore the society is not properly adjusted. By accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... The process is described very nicely in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, we will find answers for all the problems of life, and if we take it seriously, then the whole human society will be happy, peaceful, in this life, and next life they will go back to home, back to Godhead for eternal blissful life of knowledge. So we are giving literary information in fifty books. Some of the books are distributed here. You can see. Otherwise, the process is very simple. If we chant the holy name of the Lord, we become purified, our heart becomes cleansed, and we can understand the aim of life, the goal of life, and in this way everything can be adjusted very nicely. Thank you very much.

Reporter: You're taking now questions?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Reporter: This four-division society that you advocate is contrary to everything in American tradition. How can that be accepted in America?

Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.

Reporter: When does this training begin? In the very youngest age or...

Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood.

Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God?

Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God?

Jagadīśa: Learning to love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret--that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him.

Reporter (3): What is the definition again of a first-class man?

Prabhupāda: First-class man? Where is that Bhagavad-gītā?

Brahmānanda: Bhagavad-gītā, they did not bring.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is the nonsense? You are all nonsense. First-class man, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that he should first of all try to..., not try, practice how to control the mind, how to control the senses. Then he must be truthful. He must be very clean, outside and inside. He must be very simple. He must be tolerant. He must be full of knowledge. He must apply knowledge in practical life. And he must believe in God. These are the qualification of the first-class man.

Reporter (2): Once a person is trained in one of the classes, can he move to another class once he's been trained as, say, a third-class man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any class man, you can train him. It requires training. Even one is in the last-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class, if he likes he can be trained up to become a first-class man.

Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?

Prabhupāda: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries.

Reporter (3): In the western countries.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (3): Where do you train them in the western countries?

Prabhupāda: We have got our headquarter in Los Angeles and we have got many centers all over the world.

Reporter (4): Who is God? Who is God?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotees: Who is God?

Prabhupāda: Who is God? God means, you know... You have got any definition of God?

Reporter (4): Pardon me?

Harikesa: Do you have a definition of God?

Reporter (4): That's beside the point. I am asking the Swami who is God.

Prabhupāda: God is great. "Great" means, "who is greater than you in every respect." We understand a rich man as very great, a wise man as very great, a strong man is very great, beautiful man is very great. In this way there are six opulences: riches, strength, wisdom, beauty, education... In this way the six opulences, when you find in somebody in full, in complete, without any competition, that is God.

Reporter (3): You listed five.

Jayatīrtha: The sixth one is renunciation.

Prabhupāda: Another, renunciation.

Reporter (3): Religious, strong, beautiful...

Prabhupāda: Religious?

Jayatīrtha: Wealthy, riches.

Reporter (3): Riches, strong, wise, beautiful, education, and renunciation.

Prabhupāda: These six opulences, when you find in the greatest quantity, nobody can excel. Here in America you have got rich man, but nobody can say that "I am the richest of all." But God can say that He is richest of all. He is strongest of all, He is wisest of all, He is the most beautiful, in this way where nobody can compete and nobody can surpass, that is God.

Reporter (5): What do... You said there are four classes and the first-class is to rule?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Reporter (5): The first-class should rule?

Jagadīśa: What do the first-class men do?

Jayatīrtha: Is their position to rule?

Prabhupāda: No. First-class man means... I have already explained. He is the brain. Everyone should take advice from him. That is first-class man. And he will give perfect advice. That is first-class man.

Reporter (5): What does he do?

Prabhupāda: He does give you advice. If you take his advice, then you get perfect advice.

Reporter (5): What do the other classes do?

Prabhupāda: Other classes... The second-class, they are supposed to be administrator. They are very... They are also very strong. They do not go away when there is fighting. They have got a ruling capacity, and they are charitable. They have got seven qualifications. So... But he rules according to the advice of the first-class men.

Reporter (5): Then... Well, how about the third and fourth-classes?

Prabhupāda: Third-class means they should engage themselves, how to produce food and give protection to the cow. It is said...

Reporter (5): The cow?

Prabhupāda: Cow, yes.

Reporter (2): The cow?

Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg.

Reporter (3): (a woman) Where... Do women fit into this social structure? You keep referring to man.

Prabhupāda: Woman is not equally intelligent as a man.

Reporter (3): Equal in intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Not equal intelligence. In the psychology, practical psychology, they have found that the man's brain has been found up to sixty-four ounce, woman... Sixty-four ounce, man's brain. And woman's brain has been found, thirty-six ounce. So therefore woman is not equally intelligent like man.

Reporter (3): So where does she fit?

Prabhupāda: You will find in practical psychology.

Reporter: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Practical psychology.

Brahmānanda: She's asking where does woman fit into this structure?

Prabhupāda: Now, woman is supposed to be assistant of man. If woman is faithful wife of the first-class man, then she also becomes first-class. If she is assistant of the second-class man then he is also second-class. If she is assistant of the third-class man, then she is also third-class. Because she is assistant, so, according to her husband, or protector, she becomes first, second, third, fourth.

Reporter (3): But she doesn't have any structure at all until marriage?

Prabhupāda: No, she has got structure--she has got brain. I have already told. But not as good as man's brain.

Reporter (3): You means she's not qualified as first, second, or third-class until she marries?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman requires to be protected--in childhood by the father, in youthhood by the husband, and in old age by the elderly sons.

Reporter (2): What is your feeling in regard to Mrs. Gandhi's actions in India at the present time, particularly in relation to what you're saying about women? Is what's happening there because she has a thirty-six ounce brain and is incapable of ruling?

Prabhupāda: Well, what is scientific proof, that is equally applicable to Mrs. Gandhi or to any ordinary woman.

Reporter: Is she having problems because she is a woman, though? If a man were in her position...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why you are trying to put me in the emergency law? (laughter)

Reporter (2): In the what?

Devotee: In the emergency rule.

Reporter (2): Did you say emergency room or emergency law?

Brahmānanda: Emergency rule that is going on in India.

Jayatīrtha: He will be arrested if he says like that.

Reporter (2): Oh.

Prabhupāda: But one thing I can say, generally. There was a great politician, Cāṇakya Paṇòita, under whose name in New Delhi there is a quarter called Canakya Purī. All the foreign embassies are situated there. He said, viśvāso naiva kartavyaṁ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca: "Never trust a woman and a politician." That is his remark, of course, I do not say anything. (Devotees laugh)

Reporter (3): Are these books all... Have you written all of these books or are they by other philosophers of...

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have written all these books.

Reporter (3): Who has published them?

Prabhupāda: We have got our own publishing house, Bhaktivedanta Trust. But we are selling our books very nice.

Reporter (3): Is that part of your income, to run a...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that is our only income, by selling books.

Reporter (2): You commented that, you gave the words "Never trust," if I understood you right, "never trust an old man and a politician?"

Jayatīrtha: A woman or a politician.

Prabhupāda: That is Cāṇakya Paṇòita's remark.

Reporter (3): Jonathan who?

Brahmānanda: Cāṇakya Paṇòita.

Prabhupāda: You perhaps know. There is a embassy quarter in New Delhi which is called Cāṇakya Purī under his name. He was a great politician. About three thousand years ago when there was the reign of Candragupta, he was the prime minister. (break)

Reporter (3): The parade on Saturday, would that be down the same route it was last year with the thing at the Civic Center?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Reporter (3): You'll be serving food?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Reporter (3): And you got all the civic permits this year? You ran into quite a bit of trouble last year, as I recall.

Jagadīśa: We started very early this year.

Reporter (3): Do you have permits for the warm food? Is that what you didn't have last year?

Śrī Govinda: No, it's all food that's packaged. So it's...

Jagadīśa: We have to package it.

Reporter (3): And your celebration's at 1:30 on the Civic Center?

Jagadīśa: It begins at 1:00 from State and...

Śrī Govinda: The city has changed it to 1:30 on Saturday.

Reporter (3): State and Quincy?

Śrī Govinda: State and Quincy, then to the Civic Center.

Reporter (3): And you'll be serving warm and hot packaged food.

Śrī Govinda: Just cold packaged food.

Reporter (3): The cookies and the...

Śrī Govinda: Called lugloos and halavā and poppers.

Reporter (3): Is that what you served last year?

Śrī Govinda: Yes. And cold water also.

Reporter (3): Is that why you're in Chicago, for the parade? Or, there's something tonight in Evanston?

Śrī Govinda: There's an open house tonight at the temple.

Reporter (3): What will happen? What will you be doing Thursday and... What day is today? Thursday or Fri...? I hate to show my thirty-six ounce brain. (laughs) Thursday and Friday, will you be having more celebrations?

Śrī Govinda: Yes, there's celebrations going on at the temple daily throughout the day.

Reporter (3): Then where does he go?

Jagadīśa: Next, to Philadelphia.

Reporter (3): How do you address him in the general? Is he called Swami?

Jagadīśa: He's addressed by his affectionate disciples as Śrīla Prabhupāda or Your Divine Grace.

Reporter (3): OK, so I would speak of him as Your Divine Grace. Does he go to Philadelphia for another festival?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Reporter: Do you fly?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. (end)

 

Room Conversation after Press Conference                         July 9, 1975, Chicago                                        402074

Prabhupāda: ...still avoid that position. (laughter) Where is the independence? Where is the independence of woman that she has to carry the weight of the pregnancy and the man is free? What is the answer to this question? Hmm? Answer Viśakha.

Viśakha: A woman is trapped by her body. She has no choice. By her body she must.

Prabhupāda: So she is already dependent on nature's law that man is free from becoming pregnant and the woman has to take the burden. Then where is the independence, equal right? Equal right means sometimes man may become pregnant, sometimes woman may become pregnant, but why only woman should become pregnant and the man goes away and she has to take care of the children, beg from government or this and that? Is that independence? Eh?

Satsvarūpa: For them, the independence has become contraception. "I don't have to have the child," they say.

Prabhupāda: That means you commit another sinful activity. Then you become dependent on nature. You'll be punished. The punishment goes to you. In this way... And the whole thing becomes cumbrous. So where is the benefit of equal right, independence? Phalena paricīyate. We have to see the result of every action--whether the result is beneficial. If the result is not beneficial--the action is not beneficial. There is cases of rape cases. The victims are women. Why the victim is not man? Why? In every rape case the sufferer, or the victim, is woman. And why not the man?

Jagadīśa: Male means predominator, female means predominated.

Prabhupāda: Then? Where is the independence? Why artificial independence?

Harikeśa: In this brain weight matter, the sixty-four ounce and thirty-six ounce, is that every brain, male brain, is...?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: No. That is what they think you've said, that every male brain is sixty-four ounces, every woman is thirty-six ounces.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The highest brain substance found in man is sixty-four ounce.

Harikeśa: They did not understand that.

Nitāi: He said it clearly.

Prabhupāda: And the highest brain substance in woman found, thirty-six ounce. So that proportion is always there. It may be twenty ounce, forty ounce, but brain substance in man is more than the woman. That is a fact, always.

Harikeśa: Is that in the Vedas also?

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of the psychology. I have given the name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. When I was student, he said. So he is a great authority in psychology. So I have given the date. But they say, "Now they have improved." Then what can be said? But they could not improve this position: they have become pregnant. For the last hundred and thousands and millions of years, in the history we hear that woman is pregnant. We never heard the man is pregnant. So where is the progress? If you are actually making progress, so millions of years ago, the history we hear... Even Rāmacandra, millions of years, Lord Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. If you take history, now where is the improvement? Millions of years ago, Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. The law of woman's becoming pregnant, millions of years was there. And what improvement have they made now? They say, "We have made improvement." What is that improvement? Millions of years ago, Sītā, she became pregnant, and Rāmacandra did not become pregnant. Man did not. So what is the improvement at the present moment? Is there any instance, a man is now becoming pregnant. And not the woman? So where is the improvement?

Jagadīśa: Even all species of life it is the same.

Prabhupāda: Inauspicious?

Brahmānanda: In all other species...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in animals, the female animal becomes pregnant. That is the law. So where is independence? Let them pass resolution that "Henceforward, man will have to become pregnant." Is it possible?

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole civilization, American western civilization, is now bewildered by this theory of woman's liberation.

Prabhupāda: But how they will be liberated on this point? First of all let me know.

Jagadīśa: They're simply crazy.

Harikeśa: They may bring up the argument that they are not concerned that they have to bear children just as long as they can be superior.

Prabhupāda: Oh. This argument is like: "You go on beating me with shoes; still I am independent. I don't mind you are beating me with shoes, but I am independent." It is the argument like that.

Devotee (1): There were supposed to be some aldermen here, but one of them was a woman and it has been on the news already about what you've said and she doesn't want to come now.

Prabhupāda: Alderman?

Brahmānanda: They're like city council men. But in this case it's a city councilwoman. So she has refused to come because the comment... There has been a lot of publicity created. (laughter) So they are speaking on the radio that "The Swamiji has come to solve all the problems by saying that woman is inferior to men."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. (laughter) So what the man says?

Harikeśa: They are being quiet. They are too afraid to say.

Prabhupāda: That means they are accepting. When they are quiet... Quiet means... Maunaṁ śamyati rakṣaṇam. If there is some argument and you remain quiet that means indirectly you accept.

Harikeśa: They are thinking that if the man were to speak out, then he would not be able to get his sex pleasure. The woman would withhold sex pleasure from the man if he were to speak out.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. At least in America, I know, they pay man for sex pleasure. Is it not a fact? Eh?

Jagadīśa: I didn't hear, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes woman pays man for sex pleasure.

Jagadīśa: Sometimes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one lady. She would like to come and see you. She is the mother of one of our devotees. But she is coming wearing tilaka and a bead bag.

Prabhupāda: Very good. (pause) But I am not speaking of my experience. When we speak, we speak from the śāstra. So this woman's dependence is described in Manu-saṁhitā. And there are many instances. Just like Kuntī. Kuntī was not ordinary woman. She was very learned, exalted woman.

Brahmānanda: This is one point, that in our devotional line there are spiritual leaders who have been women such as Kuntī. She gave...

Prabhupāda: But still... Therefore I say. Still, she remained dependent on their son. That is is my proposition. Just like the sons, they lost the game and they were to be banished. Kuntī was not banished. So when the sons went to forest, Kuntī also followed because she thought that "I am widow. I am dependent on my sons. So wherever my sons will remain, I shall remain." She was not... She did not lose the game; neither she was ordered to go to the forest. Similarly, Sītā, Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. Lord Rāmacandra was requested by His father to go to the forest, not Sītā. Sītā was also a king's daughter. So she could go to her father that "My husband is going to the forest. Let me go to my father's house." She did not go. She preferred that "I shall go with my husband." So when husband said that "You are not banished. You stay at home," she said, "No. I am dependent on You. Wherever You shall go, I must go." This is Vedic culture.

Brahmānanda: Her chastity was her great virtue.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the thing.

Brahmānanda: Nowadays that is no longer true.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays may be different, but I am speaking of the Vedic ideas, that woman in all circumstances, unless the husband is crazy or something like that, mad, or..., in every case the instance is that wife is faithful and subservient to the husband. That is the Vedic culture. Even the husband goes out of home, vānaprastha, the wife also goes with him. When he takes sannyāsa, at that time there is no accompaniment of wife. Otherwise in gṛhastha life and even vānaprastha life, the wife is constant companion and subservient. That is the history of Vedic culture. History, Gāndhārī, because her husband was blind, so when the marriage settlement was done, she was not blind, but she voluntarily became blind by wrapping cloth.

Devotee (2): She remained with the cloth wrapped for her whole life?

Prabhupāda: Whole life.

Devotee (2): Whole life.

Prabhupāda: She voluntarily became blind. And up to the last point of her husband's precarious condition, she remained with him. These are the examples. There are other examples. Damayanti. They became so poor that they had no clothing. So the one cloth divided into two, husband and wife. So these instances are in the Vedic literature, that wife remains always faithful and subservient to the husband. That is their perfection. Now the Americans may not like this idea. That is different thing. But we are speaking of the Vedic culture. And these are the instances, vivid instances. Why Sītā accompanied her husband? And because she accompanied her husband in the jungle, the war between Rāma Rāvaṇa became possible. And it is the advice that "When you go to other countries you should not take your wife." Pathe narī-vinārjitaḥ. Because it may create some trouble. But still, the faithful wife goes with the husband.

Brahmānanda: You've used the example of this, that woman is less intelligent of the size of the brain, given by one professor in 1920. So they took offense to this because their idea is that what might have been scientific fact in 1920, in 1975 is not scientific fact.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the proof? From 1920 to 1975, where is a woman who is extraordinarily bigger than man?

Brahmānanda: Well, they might be able to bring some scientist who would say in 1975 that according to their calculations, there is no difference between the brain of a woman and the brain of a man.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: In other words, that, what is considered scientific fact, that changes according to the social ideas that are prevalent in a particular time.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Social ideas, there is no standard social idea. That is another thing. You can change in any way. But so far physiological conditions, that has not changed. The feature of the woman's body has not changed. So how the brain will change? The bodily feature of woman as it was in 1920, it is still going on. Outwardly we see. So how inwardly it is changed? In 1920 the woman was becoming pregnant; there is no change now that man is pregnant. So how you say there is change?

Brahmānanda: I don't know, but she said that they have spoken to scientists and that scientists say that the woman's brain... Now a scientist says a woman's brain and a man's brain is not different.

Nitāi: No, no. She said that even though the woman's brain may be smaller, that that doesn't make a difference in intelligence.

Harikeśa: No, they think it is the creases in the brain. Just like Einstein had a very small brain, but there were many creases, so they say that's why he was very intelligent, because there were creases.

Prabhupāda: But since 1920 to up to date in the history, there have been many great personalities or very prominent personalities, but where is the history that women are greater than the man or are equal to the man in the history?

Satsvarūpa: They have a standard answer to that that the women have always been oppressed, that the women could have become great philosophers and writers and politicians, but they were always kept in the home. So now they're going to change this, they say. It's only due to the man's oppressing them and keeping them down.

Prabhupāda: So this pregnancy is also pressing. The man has pressed to become pregnant? This is man's pressure or nature's?

Brahmānanda: Of course, they will try to stop that. Through contraceptive methods and abortion, they will try to stop having children.

Prabhupāda: But that is not stopping. That is artificially taking some other measures. That is not stopping.

Harikeśa: The two countries that have women as leaders are in the headlines all the time. Like Israel, Goldi Meir, they are always war between there and Egypt.

Brahmānanda: Argentina also.

Harikeśa: Argentina, and India. Now there will be war. Wherever there is woman in charge, there is war, disruption. But they think because they are in charge, that proves they are equal.

Prabhupāda: I think in Indian history she is the first woman to be in charge of the state. Before her, there is no instance of woman becoming in charge.

Brahmānanda: In Śrī Lanka also, they have woman in charge. That is also considered Indian.

Prabhupāda: According to Manu-saṁhitā, which is Vedic laws, it is said that "Woman is not to be given freedom." They have to be protected. According to Vedic civilization, women, children, old man, brāhmaṇa, and cow--they are to be given protection. The state should give protection. (break) ...the defect of modern civilization is that vox populi.

Nitāi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everything is passed by popular vote. But that is also defective.

Brahmānanda: You brought that out nicely by giving the example of Nixon. He received the largest popular vote of any president in the history, and he was also then pulled down.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote...

Brahmānanda: Even more than her father she received.

Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If, by vote, if you select a wrong man and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the, what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is.

Brahmānanda: Stalin also. He was...

Prabhupāda: Stalin died.

Brahmānanda: But after he died, they completely discredited him. They pulled down his statues and he was completely disgraced.

Devotee: A nonperson, they call him. It's the word they give, like Krushchev also is a nonperson.

Prabhupāda: Non.

Brahmānanda: Well, they consider them not to have existed.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: It is such a... In that way they have disgraced...

Prabhupāda: Erased from the history.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (pause)

Prabhupāda: So it will create some agitation?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Harikeśa: Oh, yes.

Devotee: It was NBC?

Brahmānanda: No, it's a local station.

Harikeśa: They may put that on nationwide. It's such hot news. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: I was seeing in one of these Time magazines. On the rear page they're advertising a cigarette that is especially meant for women. It's a slimmer size. The larger size is for the men; the slimmer size is for the women. And the title of the advertisement, they show one picture of a woman cleaner, sweeper. She is cleaning the floors. This picture was taken in the 1920's. It was taken in Washington D.C. because in the background they show the capitol building is there in Washington D.C. So then they have a picture of a modern woman. She's sitting there looking very nice. And they say that "You've come a long way, baby." (laughter) Whereas in the 1920's you were sweeping the floors and now you're sitting on a throne.

Prabhupāda: "So you accept this cigarette."

Brahmānanda: Yes. "This cigarette is meant just for you to show that you're superior."

Prabhupāda: I think there was some objection, woman taking this objection, why woman's idol should be displayed in the shopkeeper's show windows.

Brahmānanda: The mannequins.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was some protest. Generally, they keep the dolls of woman, beautiful woman. So there was some protest.

Brahmānanda: They even now have protested...

Prabhupāda: In advertisement also. Woman's pictures are so many. So why they are taking woman's picture? We also say that maidservant, 1920... Now she has become. Like the woman... There are many men like that. Why not men? Why they are taking advantage of the woman? Why there is no protest, that "Why you are taken?" There are many men who has improved from 1920 up to date. Why don't you give that picture. Why woman's picture? Where is the protest? Whenever there is some fashion dress, the woman's picture is given. Why? Is there any protest by the women for this that, "Why you are taking advantage of woman"?

Jagadīśa: These days the men are doing that also more and more, dressing up so fancy and getting their pictures in the magazines.

Prabhupāda: Of women?

Jagadīśa: Men also. Nowadays men are also doing that, thinking that it's so important to dress in fancy clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, dress, that's all right. But generally they present woman's picture.

Brahmānanda: Yes, they protest that this shows that woman is being exploited.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Actually, they are just feeling frustrated because it is a fact that woman has been exploited by the men. So now they want to counteract this.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that woman should be exploited by men. We say the man should be responsible and give protection to woman.

Brahmānanda: But they feel so angry from the exploitation that they cannot accept that actually a man could protect them.

Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. But the ideal is different. Ideal is that man must be first-class and he must be responsible to take care of the woman, and she should be given all protection, all necessities. That is the duty of man. Just like father takes the charge of his daughter, similarly, husband should take charge of the woman. And similarly, elderly sons also took charge of the woman. The father never exploits the daughter. He gives all protection. That is the duty of the husband also. When she is grown up, she cannot remain under the protection of father. She is given, therefore, to a suitable boy to take charge. But the charge is the same, to give protection, all comforts. And because there is no first-class man to take charge of the woman, they are declaring independence. All the men are doing that. They keep girlfriend, make her pregnant, and go away, goes away.

Brahmānanda: In that sense we can say that the women are inferior, but the men also, they are not first-class.

Prabhupāda: That we also said, that there is no first-class men. So if there is first-class man, then whole question is solved.

Jagadīśa: The men are behaving just like dogs.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Today in the hotel where we went there was one barber shop. And the name of the barber shop was "The home of the dog."

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?

Brahmānanda: Well, the idea is that the haircuts of the men are so long, they look like...

Prabhupāda: Dog.

Brahmānanda: ...shaggy dogs.

Prabhupāda: After all, all these questions can be solved if people become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no such discrimination. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. These distinctions are there on the material platform. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction.

Brahmānanda: So that is something that the reporters did not understand. This point was not discussed very fully, that actually we don't, we are not unkind to women, we are not exploiting them as others do because one who is in the spiritual life he feels he is equal to... Men, women does not matter.

Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me..." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse.

Brahmānanda:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers--can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break) ...than great jïānīs and yogis."

Jagadīśa: But this point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult to understand, and it will only be possible for a very few persons to grasp this truth. Therefore you are encouraging us to introduce the proper social system so that gradually people may understand. Otherwise they could never accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first-class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness. So it is already published in the paper?

Brahmānanda: Well, all the radio stations are carrying it. And the TV will probably have it tonight. Actually, this one purport might clarify the disagreement. They may not be so angry.

Prabhupāda: Why do they not understand, by nature's discrimination the woman is put into greater difficulty by bearing child?

Brahmānanda: That is the one thing they cannot avoid. They cannot escape.

Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement is by nature? How they can change it?

Brahmānanda: Someone was telling me that there have been many instances that when women are being taken to the hospital to give birth to their children--they're in the ambulance, and they are experiencing the pains--that they are cursing their husbands, "Why you have given me this pain?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, because birth pain is very severe.

Brahmānanda: They vow never to have sex again at that time. But...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That śloka I was... Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. To... The sex life and the aftereffects are full of miserable condition, so once they have sex life, they become, woman becomes pregnant, and the painful conditions are passed. But still, he or she is not satisfied, again takes the same thing, entailed by so many sufferings. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. Because he has no knowledge, he commits means the same thing again.

Jagadīśa: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupāda: Both of them suffer. But irresponsible father avoids, then the both suffering comes on the woman. She suffers the pain, birth pain, and suffers to raise the children. And the man goes away. How they are going to solve this problem? What is their answer? They become dependent on the man during sex life and purchases the pain, birth pain, and accuses the husband. And then, when the child is born she has to take care. The father may go away. The mother cannot give up the care of the children. Out of affection, she is carrying two child. So these are the aftereffects. So can the woman avoid sex, which is entailed with so much sufferings? She submits. Where is the independent woman? Therefore, if one is spiritually advanced, then she becomes.

Brahmānanda: Then he becomes.

Prabhupāda: She can become equal with man. Spiritually advanced man and woman, they are equal. So long one is materially encaged, this is not possible. (pause)

 

Morning Walk                                                 July 10, 1975, Chicago                                                            402232

Jayatīrtha: (in car:) It says, "Forgive me if this story is not well-written. I am a woman. My brain weighs less than a man's, and I am not equal in intelligence." So she admits. "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the seventy-seven year-old founder of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, said so Wednesday. The Society is dedicated to peace in the world through love of God and relinquishment of all things material. The Swami spoke seated cross-legged on an expensive looking cushion surrounded by fresh flowers, microphones and burning incense in a conference room he rented at the Sheraton Chicago Hotel. He is in town for a Kṛṣṇa parade at 1:30 p.m., Saturday down State Street in which he will ride on a flower-bedecked float. He then will fly to Philadelphia for more celebration and philosophical chats. He looked occasionally at his gold watch as he explained his life philosophy. His adoring disciple, five men, knelt at his side. 'The MAN,' " capital M-A-N, "he said, 'who loves God, controls his sense, is clean inside and out, is simple and tolerant and uses knowledge he has acquired in practical life...'

Prabhupāda: Intolerant?

Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right. "He spoke thirty minutes and never mentioned women. I asked how women fit into his system. 'Women,' he said, 'is not equal in intelligence to man. Man's brain weighs sixty-four ounces; women's weighs thirty-six ounces. It is just a fact.' He continued, 'Women are meant to assist men. That is all.' He said women do not figure in his class system except as daughters or wives. 'An unmarried woman presumably is classless. Is that,' asked a male reporter..."

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is fact. She is prostitute, that's all. If you classify, then she is prostitute. (laughter) That's all. There is no other way.

Jayatīrtha: " 'Is that,' asked a male reporter, 'what is wrong with Mrs. Indira Gandhi?' The Swami hedged." Then actually they made a mistake. " 'I cannot say. I would be arrested.' " That was actually a misquote. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Brahmānanda: Well, it's the idea, though.

Jayatīrtha: Yeah. "The Swami now lives in Los Angeles, and he trains his followers there. Their income is from sales of his books, magazines and incense. He says he has about ten thousand followers. 'We do not have so many,' he said..."

Prabhupāda: The inner meaning is there: "I shall be arrested."

Brahmānanda: Yes. (laughs) That shows what is the position.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: "He said he has about ten thousand followers." Quote: " 'We do not have so many,' he said, 'it is hard to find a first-class man.' " And then she says...

Prabhupāda: Therefore without first-class man, nobody can become my disciple.

Jayatīrtha: Then she says, "It's a pity half the population are women."

Prabhupāda: I didn't say half the population...

Brahmānanda: That's her comment.

Jayatīrtha: That's what she said. In other words...

Brahmānanda: Her comment is that if you hadn't...

Jayatīrtha: ...that half of the people are disqualified already because they're women. It's not so bad.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not bad. It is good. Now our policy should be that at Dallas we shall create first-class men, and we shall teach the girls two things. One thing is how to become chaste and faithful to their husband and how to cook nicely. If these two qualifications they have, I will take guarantee to get for them good husband. I'll personally... Yes. These two qualifications required. She must learn how to prepare first-class foodstuff, and she must learn how to become chaste and faithful to the husband. Only these two qualification required. Then her life is successful. So try to do that. (Car doors open, walk begins) Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education. (break) Yesterday we saw in the television how these rascals are wasting time, talking nonsense. There was nothing, valuable talk. Foot... No, no, hand... What is that? Handprint? And the addicted murder? That was the case? (break) Within two weeks, two divorces.

Devotees: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...in the Dallas there is no problem. Educate the girls how to become faithful, chaste wife and how to cook nicely. Let them learn varieties of cooking. Is very difficult? These two qualifications, apart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, materially they should learn. There are many stories, Nala-Damayantī, then Pārvatī, Sītā, five chaste women in the history. They should read their life. And by fifteenth, sixteenth year they should be married. And if they are qualified, it will be not difficult to find out a nice husband. Here the boys, they do not want to marry because they are not very much inclined to marry unchaste wife. They know it, that "I shall marry a girl, she is unchaste." What do you think?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is psychology. If woman is chaste, even though she is not very beautiful, she will be liked by the husband. So train them in that way: very chaste, faithful wife and knows how to cook very nicely. Other qualification, even they haven't, that's all right. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being trained up. Then there will be no difficulty. And boys should be first-class man. Then our Gurukula will be successful. What do you think? Am I right?

Jayatīrtha: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Anything objectionable?

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that in our society the women shouldn't cook privately for their husbands.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: You were saying that everyone should take the Deity's prasādam. But it sounds like the women are being trained to cook, so...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. The thing is that Deity or at home, she must be very first-class cook. That is wanted. That is according to convenience. If possible, they can take prasādam in the temple. If not possible, they must cook. But she must be first-class cook. That is wanted, either in the temple or outside. In India still, 80%, 90%, they are very happy in their family life, never mind one is poor or rich, because the wife knows these three things: to remain chaste and faithful to the husband, and she knows how to cook nicely. (pause) And women and men should live separately. That is also essential. Butter and fire must be kept apart. Otherwise the butter will melt. You cannot stop it. (pause) The drama was a drug-addicted boy killed some friend?

Brahmānanda: It was the sailor who was killed?

Prabhupāda: In that television?

Jayatīrtha: I came in late.

Brahmānanda: On the news?

Prabhupāda: No, no, the television. The lawyers were trying to prove handprints and so many things. The subject matter was that a drug-addicted boy killed a friend. Hm? (pause) What is this, some stool?

Jayatīrtha: This? It appears to be a leaf of some kind.

Prabhupāda: Oh, leaf.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a purport in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you say that even fifty years ago in India the householders had separate apartments for the men and women.

Prabhupāda: Not apartment, quarter.

Devotee: Separate quarters in the apartment. And the husband would not see his wife during the day?

Prabhupāda: No.

Makhanlal: So is this the standard we should develop in our movement?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. The example is the butter and fire should be kept separate as far as... Otherwise the butter will melt. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā. The butter and..., means man and woman. A man is butter, and woman is fire. So this is restricted even the man happens to be father, brother or son. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā. People cannot think of sex impulse in the presence of daughter, mother or sister. But śāstra says "No. There is possibility." Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā na vivaktāsane vaset: "They should not be kept, should not sit together." Then people may say, "This is impossible. Maybe some tenth-class rascal may be attracted." So the next line says, "No," vidvāṁśāpi karṣati, "it is not the question of tenth-class rascal; even first-class learned, he may be attracted." Not to speak of tenth-class rascal, but first-class learned may be. Not may be. It is a... Balavān indriya-grāmo vidvāṁśāpi karṣati: "The senses are so strong that it can mislead even the most learned scholar."

Jagadīśa: Lord Brahmā was attracted...

Prabhupāda: Yes, to his daughter. Just see. There is the example. Lord Śiva was attracted by the Mohinī-mūrti. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Even if I see a wooden woman, I become attracted." (laughs) He is giving this from his..., to teach us that it is possible. So we shall go now? (break) (in car:) ...takes my advice, then I can keep her on the post and she can do greatest, service to India immediately. Immediately whole public will be her support.

Brahmānanda: What would be your advice to her?

Prabhupāda: My first step will be to capture all the hoarders and distribute the grains free. Immediately public will be obliged to... There are immense food grains; they are simply hoarded. They are not selling without good price. This is going on. Immediately she can capture the public. And some of the hoarders should be hanged, yes, so that in future nobody will hoard. People are hungry. And she says she has got some program, garivi hatta(?), "Drive away the poverty." This is the point. If she can supply all consumer goods for the time being free to the poor, then immediately the whole population will be after her. And the hoarders should be exemplary punished. Shoot them, that's all. Then nobody will hoard. But to remain the dictator she requires spiritual knowledge. Otherwise it will be another disaster. If she wants to remain the dictator, then she must be a spiritual man. She must become a Vaiṣṇavī. (end)

 

Therefore, despite all advancement of education, economic development, people are in chaotic condition, they are not satisfied, and everything is being tried to make it very nice.

 

Now, the God says that "Your economic problem will be solved like this." What is that? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "Then both the animals and man will sufficiently eat, and they will be satisfied." What is the wrong there?

 

So everything is there, practical, whatever is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā.

 

The more you become pure, the faith is firm.

 

They cannot, just like if your mind is full of anxiety, you cannot work fully. So because they are denied this cheerfulness, you are getting less milk. If you keep them cheerful, they will give more milk. This is nature's economic development. Artificially you cannot increase the production of milk. But according to the instruction of scripture, if you keep them cheerful without any fear, they will deliver double milk. So therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that cows should be protected in the human society…Vaiśya means economic development. They should produce ample food grains and give protection to the cows.

 

But that is very nice, that economic development means you produce more food grains and more milk. Then it will solve all posit... There will be no scarcity of food or happiness.

 

You have to work; this is the material world. So that work is simple work. If you have got land... Everyone has got land. You just work little, and it will produce your food grains. And the food grains will give food to the animal and man. The animal, cow, he will eat the grass, and you will take the grains. Why should you kill the animal? You haven't got to arrange for his food. You produce paddy. The plant, when it is dried, it is good for animals, and you take the grains. Why should you kill him? And he will deliver you. If you protect his life, he will give you nice milk. So you keep animal, cows, and grow food grain; then your food problem is solved. So if your food problem is solved and your cloth problems is solved, then where is your economic necessity? Then you save time and cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class."…So we are trying to introduce that, that without first-class man, the society is useless. So there are first-class men. You train up. Just like a boy is intelligent; still, he requires training in the school, college. Then he maintains his first-class brain, first-class position. So there is first-class man. Now we have to train them properly how to become controller of the mind, how to become controller of the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed internally, externally, how to become full of knowledge, how to try to apply the knowledge in practical life, how to become God conscious. This training is... A first-class man can take up, just like they are taking, all these boys. They had their first-class brain, and now they are being trained up. That is required, trained up first-class men. That training is required…We are trying to introduce this system.

 

Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?

Prabhupāda: I will never die.

Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)

Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.

 

Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my next attempt, that we shall educate according to classification.

 

Don't manufacture civilization. Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṇa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men. And less than fourth-class, fifth-class…So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful.

 

Brahmānanda: The modern civilization has made everything easy, everything convenient.

Prabhupāda: Not easy, difficult.

Brahmānanda: Well as far as doing one's life's activities, they make it easy for you, buying in the supermarket, canned food, it's already cooked, you put it in the oven, five minutes it's ready. They have laundry machines.

Prabhupāda: That is not very healthy.

Brahmānanda: Oh, no. But they have made it so that there's less...

Prabhupāda: They are impetus to catch their disease.

Brahmānanda: So these are the reactions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The disease is already there, but we have made such a disease that it will be incurable.

 

That is unity. Combine together, working differently but for the same purpose, for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then you will become happy. That is equality. Unity in variety. That is wanted…Let the variety be united, just like these varieites are united, and it looks nice, and if you eat that will be nice. Why you want to stop the variety? That is Māyāvādī…When Kṛṣṇa has made so many varieties there is some purpose. That one should understand. That is intelligence. You can organize these farms very nicely. Then this devil's workshop will stop.

 

Satsvarūpa: Is it all right to use modern machines on our farms?

Prabhupāda: As far as possible don't use machine. Let people be engaged.

Satsvarūpa: Animals?

Prabhupāda: Animal. Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Not gas-driven engine.

Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossipping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti. As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life.

 

Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped in spite of that... instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, "What we shall do with so many bulls?"

Nityānanda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen.

Prabhupāda: No, what the oxen will do?

Nityānanda: Plow the fields.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields. That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will think, "What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them.

 

No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

 

So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don't live in the city, you don't require petrol, motor car. It is no use.

 

They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.

 

So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.

Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way?… Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...

Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.

 

So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy--you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary--indigestion. "Indigestion, starve." This is nature's law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that "You don't do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries." Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others' distress. This is Vaiṣṇava. (end)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make Vṛndāvana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME FIFTEEN

Morning Walk                                              July 12, 1975, Philadelphia                                                        402494

Prabhupāda: ...already very much attraction for this material world. That is called māyā. And when we are involved with these things, material prosperity, then we become more involved. On account of our material attachment, we are getting repetition of birth and death in different forms of life, and these attractions are making us more and more involved. māyāra vaibhava. People are becoming illusioned, "I am American. My country is so rich. I shall live here." But you cannot live. He is preparing for another body. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says, anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiya, jība ke karaye gadha. Anityad means we shall not be able to stay. Unnecessarily, we are becoming involved in this material world. Now, those who built up this nation, where they have gone, nobody can say. Because after this body is fallen, where he is being carried, nobody knows. He is carried by his work, fruitive activities. Therefore they do not believe next life. Finished.

                                                                                                                                                                        402502

Prabhupāda: ...idea is there in the western countries? No.

Kīrtanānanda: Not very much. Although the idea is there that the best education can be secured when boys are separate in school. That idea is there. The best families have always sent their sons away to school.

Prabhupāda: That should be followed in our system. Boys and girls must be separate. (break) ...introduce now.

                                                                                                                                                                        402569

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in the evolutionary cycle, the transmigration of the soul, we were inquiring whether there's any specific details in the Vedas about the step by step transmigration of the spirit, of the soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. From the aquatics to the plants, and then insect, then bird, then beast, then human being.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then it's the same with the Darwin's Theory.

Prabhupāda: Darwin has taken from here, and he has tried to explain in a hodgepodge way so that he may get the credit, that's all.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: The plants have more consciousness, manifest consciousness, than aquatics?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Ravīndra-svarūpa: That plants and grass, they are more conscious than aquatics.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also mentioned in the Bhāgavata, about different animals, how they are conscious, developed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Bhāgavata, in the later chapters, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not up to the present Fourth Canto that...

Prabhupāda: Fourth Canto there is, how one animal is more conscious than the other.

 

Conversation with Professor Hopkins                                  July 13, 1975, Philadelphia                               403059

Prof. Hopkins: People, various people read your writings, your commentaries, and they, they react to them sometimes with reservation because they see your writings as dogmatic.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Prof. Hopkins: They see your writings... Some people see your writings as dogmatic.

Prabhupāda: Or "He is dogmatic." (laughter)

Prof. Hopkins: They say, "He is dogmatic," okay. Do you feel that you are dogmatic or...

Prabhupāda: No. You find out any passage in my book dogmatic, then you say dogmatic. Any page you open, where is dogmatic?

Prof. Hopkins: Well, dogmatic, to call someone else dogmatic means to start with that you don't agree with what they are saying. If I agree with you and you...

Prabhupāda: No, you have to agree. You open any passage of my book.

Prof. Hopkins: Well, some people would say to insist that Kṛṣṇa is the only way, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only way...

Prabhupāda: No, no. The only thing that God is one, that you have to accept. God cannot be many. If God has got competitor, then he is not God.

Prof. Hopkins: Okay.

Prabhupāda: So if we don't admit Kṛṣṇa is the only God then you present who is only God. You say me. Either you have to learn from me or I have to learn from you.

Prof. Hopkins: So to insist...

Prabhupāda: If you do not know what is God you cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." As soon as you say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God," that means you must know what is God. You present. But if you cannot present, you say, "No, I do not know God," then you cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God."

Prof. Hopkins: All right.

Prabhupāda: So they are dogmatic. Dogmatically they are saying, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." He does not know God and he says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." So what is this nonsense? You do not know God. How you can say Kṛṣṇa is not God?

Prof. Hopkins: I agree with you, I just... I want to get... (laughter) If we're dogmatic, we're on the same side.

Prabhupāda: We are not dogmatic. Those people who are talking us as dogmatic, he is dogmatic. He does not know God, and when God is presented before him, he says, "No, He is not God." That is dogmatic.

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Prof. Hopkins: It's difficult for people outside the society of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to see what the purpose is. How would you understand the purpose? Simply to make God known? How would you state...

Prabhupāda: Our purpose is how to become happy. Everyone is struggling how to become happy. Somebody is thinking that "If I can get money then I'll be happy." Somebody is thinking that "If we become one with the Supreme, then I'll be happy." And somebody thinks that "If I can get material power, then I'll be happy." So those who are thinking in terms of money, they are karmīs. And those who are thinking in terms of becoming one, they are jïānīs. And those who are thinking in terms of getting material power, they are yogis. But the bhaktas, they don't want any such perfection. They, bhaktis, "Let me worship the Supreme, that's all." Therefore he has already (indistinct) and they are all in want. Bhakta is satisfied simply by worshiping the Lord. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. And all others, karmīs, jïānīs, yogis, they want something so they cannot be happy. So if happiness is my aim, then I must become a bhakta, otherwise there is no happiness. You are always in want. Somebody is in want of money, somebody is in want to becoming one with the Supreme, and somebody wants to show some jugglery, mysticism. So they want something. And a devotee, he doesn't want all these things. He wants to serve Kṛṣṇa, that's all. No demand. And he serves Kṛṣṇa without any motive. Ahaituky apratihatā. That is bhakta.

Prof. Hopkins: So what you are doing is simply showing people how to be happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Hopkins: I like that.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is the real want, how to become happy.

Prof. Hopkins: It's remarkable how complicated simple things get.

Prabhupāda: The example is also very simple. Just like a child is crying and somebody is offering some milk, somebody is offering something but he is still crying. Could not find any cause. Then when the child goes to the mother's lap, immediately (claps)--stops. He understands immediately, "Now I am on the lap of my mother, then everything is all right." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is hankering after making some profit, this way, that way, this way, that way. But when one becomes, gets that supreme thing then he thinks, "Oh, I don't want anything." That is happiness. Unhappiness due to want. So the karmīs, jïānīs, yogis, they are all in want. They want something. Bhaktas are also sometimes in want. They want Kṛṣṇa. And in absence of Kṛṣṇa they are very unhappy, but that unhappiness is greater than happiness.

Prof. Hopkins: The gopīs in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is greater than happiness. And the Māyāvādī, karmī, jïānī, they cannot understand. They will say, "Your gopīs are also crying for Kṛṣṇa, for want of Kṛṣṇa." But they do not know that this want is different.

Prof. Hopkins: So you have been extremely generous with your time and your wisdom.

Prabhupāda: I enjoy(?) that. And that is what the whole human society (indistinct).

Prof. Hopkins: Well I... I have been a friend for many years now. I suspect... I suspect sometimes that I may end up as a sannyāsī among your line at some point. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa does not mean change of dress. Sannyāsa means everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa.

Prof. Hopkins: What is your view of Śrī Aurobindo? (loud laughter) Or should I have left well enough alone? He is not an impersonalist, he's not a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: He says that above the Māyāvāda philosophy there is something else, super. That is bhakti. (indistinct) ...bhakti, but he could not understand because he did not take any education from realized person. He wanted to realize himself. That is his defect.

Prof. Hopkins: So one who... You would see his effort to transcend, I suppose you would call it...

Prabhupāda: That effort was for life after life. Then when his effort will be successful he will realize Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante.

Prof. Hopkins: So his problem was the effort to attempt to do this on his own without going through...

Prabhupāda: The guru.

Prof. Hopkins: The guru.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it will take time. Just like a man searching after the right path but he does not care to ask anybody, he is loitering in the forest.

Prof. Hopkins: You... I'm sure you're familiar with his essays on the Gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Hopkins: Which I think are generally quite good, his essays on the Gītā themselves. Are there places there that you would strongly disagree with in his, what he says?

Prabhupāda: No, we disagree with the whole system because he is trying to understand the Absolute Truth by his own effort. That is not possible.

 

Room Conversation with writer Sandy Nixon                          July 13 1975, Philadelphia                            402604

Sandy Nixon: What is the difference between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Christ consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Christ consciousness is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but people do not follow the rules and regulations of Christianity. Therefore they are not awakened. The commandments of Christ, they do not follow. Therefore they do not come to the standard of consciousness.

Sandy Nixon: What is unique about Kṛṣṇa consciousness that separates it from other religions? If it's a religion.

Prabhupāda: Religion means primarily to know God and love Him. That is religion. And nobody knows God, and what to speak of loving Him? Nobody is trained up how to know God and how to love Him. They are satisfied by going to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." That also not everyone goes. So the Communist says that "You don't go to the church. Bread we shall supply." So poor innocent persons, they get bread elsewhere, so they do not go to church. But nobody is serious to understand what is God and how to love Him. Nobody is serious. Therefore in Bhāgavatam, it is said, it is cheating religion. I profess some religion, but I do not know what is God and how to love Him. That's all. So that type of religion is cheating religion. Religion means to know God and love Him. But generally, a man does not know what is God and what to speak of loving Him? So therefore that is cheating religion. That is not religion. But so far Christian religion is concerned, there is ample chance of understanding God. But they do not care for it. Take for example, the commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But in the Christian world, best slaughterhouses are maintained. So how they can become God conscious? They disobey the commandments, do not care for Lord Jesus Christ's order. So this is not only in Christian religion. Every religion, it is going on. It is simply rubber stamp. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." And none of them do know what is God and how to love Him.

Sandy Nixon: How does one know a bona fide spiritual master, then, that can lead them?

Prabhupāda: Who teaches these things--how to know God and how to love Him--he is spiritual master. Otherwise bogus, rascal bogus. Sometimes they mislead that "I am God." Poor people, they do not know what is God, and a rascal proposes, "I am God," and they accept it. Just like in your country they elected Nixon president and again drag him. That means they did not know who is really bona fide president, elected somebody, and again they had to business of dragging out. Similarly, people are foolish. Any rascal comes. He says, "I am God." They accept. And again they accept another. This is going on. So one must be serious student to understand what is God and how to love Him. That is religion. Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. That we are teaching. That is the difference between others and our... We are presenting Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the science, how to know Him. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, Bhāgavata is there. Not bogus. Authorized. Therefore this is the only institution which can teach how to know God and how to love Him. Two business. There is no third business. It is not our business to ask God to give us our necessities. We know God gives necessities to everyone, even one who has no religion. Just like cats and dogs. They have no religion. They do not know what is religion. But still, the cats and dogs are supplied with necessities of life. So why we should bother Kṛṣṇa, asking Him, "Give us our daily bread"? He is supplying already. Our business is how to love Him. That is religion. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaṁ vastu vedyam atra. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: "That is first-class religion which teaches how to love God." And that love--not for any material motive: "God, You give me this. Then I will love." No. Ahaitukī. Love means without any personal profit. If I love God for some profit that is business. That is not love. Ahaituky apratihatā. And such love of God cannot be checked by any material cause. In any condition, one can learn how to love God. It is not conditional, that "I am poor man. How shall I love God? I have got so many things to do." No, it is not like that. Poor, rich or young or old, black or white, there is no impediment. If one wants to love God, he can love God.

                                                                                                                                                                        402615

Sandy Nixon: Does one function better in society as a result of affiliation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?

Ravīndra-svarūpa: Is he a better citizen?

Sandy Nixon: And also sociologically or cultu... Can he work better in the community?

Prabhupāda: That you can see practically. They are not drunkards, they are not meat-eaters. From physiological point of view, they are very clean. They will never be attacked with so many diseases. Then they do not eat meat, means that is the most sinful, to kill others for the satisfaction of the tongue. God has given to the human society so many things to eat: nice fruits, nice flowers, nice grains, first-class milk. And from milk, you can prepare hundreds of nutritious foods. But they do not know the art. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse and eating meat. No discrimination. That means they are not even civilized. When man is not civilized, he kills one animal and eats because he does not know how to grow food. Just like we have got one farm land, in New Vrindaban. So we are preparing so first-class preparation from milk, the neighborers they come, they are astonished that from milk such nice preparation can be done, hundreds. So that means they are not even civilized, how to prepare nutritious food from milk. Milk--accepting that cow flesh and blood is very nutritious, that we also admit--but a civilized man utilizes the blood and meat in a different way. The milk is nothing but blood. But it is transformed into milk. And again, from milk you make so many things. You make yogurt, you make curd, you make ghee, so many things. And combination of these milk products with grains, with fruits and vegetables, you make similar hundreds of preparation. So this is civilized life, not that directly kill one animal and eat. That is uncivilized life. You take the--accepting that cow's flesh and blood is very nutritious--you take it in a civilized way. Why you should kill? It is innocent animal. Is simply eating grass given by God and supplying milk. And from milk you can live. And the gratefulness is that cut his throat? Is that civilization? What do you say?

Jayatīrtha: Is that civilization?

Sandy Nixon: No, I agree a hundred percent. I want you to say these things, though, instead of me. I'm asking you questions so that hopefully that not by me describing anything...

Prabhupāda: So these things are uncivilized way of life, and what they will understand God? That is not posible.

Sandy Nixon: I'm asking these questions for others, of course, a field(?) that is not understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: To understand God means one must be first-class civilized man. Just like university is meant for first-class student, similarly, God consciousness means meant for the first-class human being.

                                                                                                                                                                        402643

Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West?

Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question?

Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and...

Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.

Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.

Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?

Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.

Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?

Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma...

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?

Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...

Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.

Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests--not suggest, it is there--there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society? Do you think all men are equally intelligent? Do you think? There must be one class, very highly intelligent class. So what are the symptoms of the intelligent class? That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The first-class intelligent man... (break) ...you find all these qualities, he is first-class man. So we are trying to introduce that, that without first-class man, the society is useless. So there are first-class men. You train up. Just like a boy is intelligent; still, he requires training in the school, college. Then he maintains his first-class brain, first-class position. So there is first-class man. Now we have to train them properly how to become controller of the mind, how to become controller of the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed internally, externally, how to become full of knowledge, how to try to apply the knowledge in practical life, how to become God conscious. This training is... A first-class man can take up, just like they are taking, all these boys. They had their first-class brain, and now they are being trained up. That is required, trained up first-class men. That training is required. So we are not introducing caste system, that any rascal born in a brāhmaṇa family, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. We don't accept that. A man who is first-class trained up to become a brāhmaṇa, we accept him. It doesn't matter whether he is India or Europe or America. It doesn't matter. We are trying to introduce this system. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. Caste system means a man is born in a brāhmaṇa family, and if by habit he is fifth-class man, and he is accepted first-class man on account of birth. Similarly, a person, very intelligent, he can be adaptable to all first-class habit, but because he is born in a śūdra family, he is śūdra. We want to stop this nonsense. We are picking up first-class brain and training up how to become first-class men. This is our business, not that introducing this rubbish thing. No, we are not introducing. Otherwise how I am offering them sacred thread? Now just see. Anyone from India, he will understand he is a first-class brāhmaṇa. We are training like that.

Sandy Nixon: Here's another one kind of on that line. How do you feel about women's lib?

Jayatīrtha: She wants to know about the women's liberation. What is our feeling about women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: That I don't want to discuss because... (laughs) (laughter) They... As you have asked, I may explain that how foolish women are being cheated by the intelligent man. You see.

Woman Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda is liberating everybody who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They have given. In your country, they have given you liberty. Liberty means equal rights, is it not? Man and woman has got equal rights.

Sandy Nixon: They're trying in this country.

Prabhupāda: All right, trying. But you women, you cannot see that this so-called equal right means cheating the woman. Now I say more clearly that a woman and man meets. Now they become lover. Then they have sex, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the man goes away. The simple woman, she has to take charge of the child and beg from government alms, "Please give me money." This is your independence. Do you admit this is independence, that the man makes the woman pregnant and he goes away without any responsibility, and the woman cannot give up the child, she maintains, begging from the government or she tries to kill the child? Do you think it is very good independence? What is your answer?

Woman: To... Whether or not it is good to kill a child? Is that the question?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are killing now, abortion.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: He wants to know that kind of independence.

Woman: For the child?

Ravīndra-svarūpa: For the woman.

Prabhupāda: For the woman.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: This is liberation. She has an affair with a man, and she gets pregnant. The man leaves. Then she has to beg alms from the government to support the child...

Prabhupāda: Or kill.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: Or she kills the child. So is that good or bad?

Woman: Well, she has made the choice to have...

Prabhupāda: That means, that is 34 ounce. You have made your choice to kill your own child. Is that very good choice?

Sandy Nixon: It's the worst crime you could commit.

Jayatīrtha: Her brain is getting larger. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Do you think it is very good business?

Woman: I think this is a very complicated question.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are cheating you in the name of independence. That you do not understand. Therefore 34 ounce. They are cheating you, and you are thinking you are independent.

Sandy Nixon: They forget the responsibility that comes with freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not take the responsibility. They go away. They enjoy and go away. And the woman has to take the responsibility, either kill the child or maintainer, begging. Do you think begging is very good? In India, although they are poverty-stricken, still, they do not remain independent. They remain under the husband, and the husband takes all responsibility. So she has neither to kill the child nor go to beg for maintaining the child. So which is independence? to remain under husband is independence or to become free to be enjoyed by everyone?

Sandy Nixon: That's not where the freedom is anyway.

Prabhupāda: So there is no freedom; still, they think that they have freedom. That means under some plea, the men are cheating the women, that's all. So in the name of independence, they have agreed to be cheated by another class. This is the situation.

Sandy Nixon: In spite of that, can women know Kṛṣṇa as...

Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction.

Sandy Nixon: No distinction...

Prabhupāda: We give Kṛṣṇa consciousness both to the woman and man equally. We do not make any such distinction. But to protect them from this exploitation by man, we teach something, that "You do like this. You do like that. You be married. Be settled up. Don't wander independently." We teach them like that. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, we equally distribute. There is no such thing that "Oh, you are woman, less intelligent or more intelligent. Therefore you cannot come." We don't say that. We welcome women, men, poor, rich, everyone, because in that platform equality.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śvapāke ca

paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

We do not refuse anyone. That is equality.

 

Morning Walk                                              July 14, 1975, Philadelphia                                                        403271

Prabhupāda: Both sides forest. (break) Now in America there is no sufficient men to live in all these places, to cut, clear it and make cottages and utilize the land for producing. There is no sufficient men, I think. And where there is overpopulation, why not invite them to come here? That they will not do. (break) ...has given sufficient land for all the people, but we have made artificial national area, will not allow.

Guru dāsa: In India this would all be utilized for living.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These places also should be allowed to the people who are overpopulated. No visa, no immigration. The whole world is simply mismanaged for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pramattaḥ, the word used, pramattaḥ, mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma: "All people mad and engaged in misdeeds only for sense gratification."

 

Press Conference                                          July 16, 1975, San Francisco                                                      403600

Jayatīrtha: The first question which you can address yourself to on a general basis is "What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?"

Prabhupāda: So this photograph will go on? (Cameras clicking)

Jayatīrtha: Just for a few moments.

Prabhupāda: Let it be finished. Otherwise, attention will be diverted. (break)

Bhaktadāsa: ...photograph, we'd like to introduce the founder-ācārya spiritual master of the entire Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who founded this movement in 1966, coming here to America from Calcutta. Now His Divine Grace has very kindly once again come to San Francisco to lead us in this holy Rathayātrā Jagannātha cart parade. And we will ask him the questions that you have written down, and he will answer those questions, like that. So the first question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that every one of us is in some type of consciousness: "I am American," "I am Indian," and, "It is my property," "America is my property," "India is my property." But we say that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property." Kṛṣṇa is the... Kṛṣṇa, God, when we say Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. God is the original proprietor. And He is, therefore, the supreme enjoyer, and He is everyone's friend. If we understand these three things, then we become peaceful. If all the nations in the United Nations assembly accept that everything belongs to God, then their quarrel between one nation to another nation immediately stops. But present fighting is that two hundred years ago the Americans were mostly in Europe. Now they have migrated and claiming America is theirs. So we think always that "All land belongs to God." Just like this big ocean. Who has created this ocean? Man has not created. Therefore, if God has created, then God is the proprietor. Take land, water. These are the material elements. Who has created such vast sky? That is also material. So we think in that way and try to find out the answer from authoritative sources. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Bhaktadāsa: One question is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "How do you view the spiritual change which is coming in America?"

Prabhupāda: America, or any other part of the world, we are all spiritual being. We cannot be satisfied only with the bodily necessities of life. Naturally there is question, "What I am? I am simply this body or something else?" That question naturally comes in human mind. That is very good. A dog cannot think like that. Therefore in the human life it is necessary to question: "What I am? Why I am put into miserable conditions of life? I do not want it, but it is forced upon me. If there is any remedy, what is that remedy?" These questions are very big questions. So unless you, a human being, is awakened to these questions, he is no better than animal.

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what effects are the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement having on the Christian-Judaic culture or the traditional religious culture?

Prabhupāda: We are speaking of religion. Religion means to know God and to love God. So does the Christian-Jewish religious system deny this? Then where is the difference? If Christian religion is meant for understanding God and try to love Him, the same thing we are preaching. The same thing, Jewish religion may be preaching. And where is that religion who denies the supremacy of God? What is that religion? Is there any religion in the world who denies the supremacy of God? We say, "Religion means the laws given by God." This is our definition. Therefore we must know what is God, what are His orders, and we must carry out the order and what is the end of carrying out such orders. If we try to understand these three or four things, then we are religious. If there is no attempt to understand what is God and what is His order and how we are acting, what is the goal of our life, then where is religion? That is not religion. Religion means these four principles: What is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, and act accordingly and achieve the goal of life. This is religion. So any religious system which does not consider all these things, that is not religion. That has been explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Religion means these things, wherever these things are there, that is religion, these enquiries. This is the subject matter of Vedānta-sūtra, where it is said, athāto brahma-jijïāsā: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about the Supreme." So that is religion.

Jayatīrtha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you comment on opposition to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in this country?

Prabhupāda: No, why they should oppose? What is the reason? If they are Christian or Jewish, religious men, so we are advocating, "You chant the holy name of God," so why there should be objection? Is there any reason for such objection? What is the objection?

Reporter (1): Some of the objections are that the followers of the Hare Kṛṣṇa sect are, on the streets or in the airports, are bothering people.

Prabhupāda: The airport itself is a botheration, so much sound, so much accident. So why this little botheration they cannot tolerate? That means intolerance. It is full of botheration, and because we are chanting, they very much disturbed? We don't chant in the airport, but we ask people that "Here is a very good book. You will benefit. If you like, you can take." So what is the wrong there? Tell me what is the wrong? If I give you something very nice, is that, I mean to say, wrong? You read any book. We have got fifty books. You find out any fault in that. If we are distributing something, bad literature which is against the social welfare, then you can object. But you see. Bring all our books here, and you will see. Any page you open and you will find something good. Why you are denying to distribute such literature for the benefit of the people in general? What is the wrong there?

Reporter (1): One of the things that people say is that the devotees are asking for donations, not just distributing books but asking for money, that that's a bother.

Prabhupāda: But he pays. If he feels botheration, why does he pay? One who feels botheration, he does not pay. But one who thinks that "Here is a nice book. All right, let me take it," why you take this botheration? If it is botheration, how they are purchasing? They are paying their money, hard-earned money. Do you think they are bothered at the same time they pay? (laughter)

Reporter (1): Yes. That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: These are all manufactured things.

Reporter (2): Could you tell me how much you do derive from the airport solicitations in the United States?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but we sell, on the whole, about $300,000 worth, books, every month.

Reporter (2): At airports alone?

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Devotees: That's everywhere, all over the world.

Bahulāśva: Here in San Francisco we distribute 1,000 of these magazines per day.

Reporter (2): What is the budget of the movement in the United States annually? How much do you need to operate?

Prabhupāda: Our program is whatever collection is there, half is spent for our establishment--we have got about more than one hundred centers all over the world--and half we spend for reprinting the books. That's all.

Reporter (2): How many members in the United States? I'm told two thousand. Is that correct approximately?

Prabhupāda: That they can say.

Jayatīrtha: Well, our published figure is that worldwide membership is ten thousand. How much of that is in the United States isn't exactly broken down.

Reporter (2): I did a story on this movement five years ago and the figure at that time was two thousand in the United States also.

Prabhupāda: It is increasing.

Reporter (2): It is increasing?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Definitely.

Jayatīrtha: I said that the worldwide figure is ten thousand.

Reporter (2): Yes, I understood. Could you tell me how old you are?

Jayatīrtha: He wants to know your age, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: After one month I will be eighty.

Reporter (1): Eighty?

Prabhupāda: Eighty years old.

Reporter (2): What will happen...

Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896, now you can calculate.

Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?

Prabhupāda: I will never die.

Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)

Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.

Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?

Prabhupāda: Yes, my Guru Mahārāja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahārāja? I think... Here is.

Reporter (2): Why does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement not engage in social protest?

Prabhupāda: We are the best social worker. People are fools and rascals. We are teaching them nice idea of God consciousness. We are the best social worker. We will stop all crimes. What is your social work? Producing hippies and criminals. That is not social work. Social work means the population must be very peaceful, wise, intelligent, God conscious, first-class man. That is social work. If you produce some fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class of men what is social work? We are producing that. Just see. Here is first-class man. They do not have any bad habit, illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, or gambling. They are all young men. They are not addicted to all these things. This is social work.

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they want to know what will be the political effect of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: Everything will be polished if Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is taken. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. If this God consciousness is spread, then everyone will be brilliantly qualified. And without God consciousness, the so-called education as we were discussing in the morning, there is no value in it. Simply they are talking. What is the subject matter we were talking?

Bahulāśva: Psychology this morning.

Prabhupāda: The result is the students are falling down from the tower in disappointment. And they are protected with glass.

Bahulāśva: In the bell tower on Berkeley campus students in the 60's would jump from that tower to kill themselves. So they put glass there to stop the students from jumping. So Prabhupāda was explaining that is their education, that after getting their education, they have to jump to commit suicide. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education?

Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my next attempt, that we shall educate according to classification. First-class, second-class, third-class, up to fourth-class. And then fifth-class, sixth-class, that is automatically there. So first-class men, there must be, at least in the society, an ideal class of men, and that is one who is trained up for controlling the mind, controlling the senses, very clean, truthful, tolerant, simplicity, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. This is first-class man.

Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and...

Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body.

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the significance of the chant which everyone who has been around the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has heard? What is the significance of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Chanting means the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is absolute. His name is not different from Him. So if you chant properly or improperly even, then immediately you be in touch with God. And as you become in touch with God, you become purified. So as you become purified, you know, actually you can see perfectly what is the aim of your life, how the human form of life should be utilized. These thing will be revealed. This is the process of chanting. Try to understand. Chanting the holy name of the Lord means the name of the Lord and the Lord, God, is not different. Just like the sun and the sunshine is not different. Wherever there is sun, or wherever... Sun may be 93,000,000 miles away from us, but by the sunshine we can appreciate sun. Similarly, God may be long, long away from us, but if we chant His holy name, immediately we become in contact with Him. This is the purpose of chanting the holy name of the Lord.

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one press man wanted to know what is this Rathayātrā festival? Why is it going on over here in the western world?

Prabhupāda: Well, that is the mistake. If God is the proprietor of everything, He is also proprietor of the western world. Is there any dispute? If we say, "God is the proprietor of the western world," what is the wrong there? Is there anything wrong? Who will answer this.

Jayatīrtha: Nothing wrong.

Prabhupāda: So if the western world has forgotten God and He comes to remind him, where is the wrong?

Reporter (3): Is that the significance, then, of the festival, to remind people of God?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is the significance. Jagannātha. Jagannātha. Jagat means the whole universe, and natha means the lord or the proprietor.

Reporter (3): What is the purpose of the large carts and other things you use?

Prabhupāda: Large car mean God is very great, He requires very great car. (laughter) Why should He go in a small car? (laughter)

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one question. They would like to know why is it that the children are separated from their parents and sent to Gurukula?

Prabhupāda: And what is the benefit of remaining with the parents to become hippies? For training. We are trying to train first-class men. So if, from the very beginning of life, one is trained... That is the Vedic civilization. Kaumāraṁ ācaret prajïo dharmān bhāgavatān iha. "One should be trained up to become God conscious from the very beginning of life," kaumāra. Kaumāra means after five years. Up to five years the children may have all freedom. Whatever he likes, he may do. But when he is five years old, he must be under training. That is the old system. Gurukula means to send the boy, especially boy, not the girl, to be trained up at the place of the spiritual master or teacher. Just like what is that public school? They also send their small children to the public school. Montesorri? What is that?

Bahulāśva: Montesorri school.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the small children are trained up. It is something like that.

Bhaktadāsa: I think you've answered this question, but he wants to know how will Kṛṣṇa consciousness affect all the religions and politics of the world at this time.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that any system you take, without God consciousness it is zero. Just like hundreds and thousands of zeros, if you put together, the value is zero. But if you put one, the value increases immediately. That one is God. So either in politics or in sociology or philosophy, religion, everywhere, if there is no God sense, it is all zero. That is going on. Therefore, despite all advancement of education, economic development, people are in chaotic condition, they are not satisfied, and everything is being tried to make it very nice. The United Nation is there, working for the last thirty years, but there is no solution because it is all zero without God. Bring God and everything will be nice. Take any question, just like economic question. There is now very acute, especially in our country. Now, the God says that "Your economic problem will be solved like this." What is that? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "Then both the animals and man will sufficiently eat, and they will be satisfied." What is the wrong there? You must have sufficient food. Then annād bhavanti bhūtāni. And anna, producing anna, you require cloud in the sky. And that is produced by yajïa. So one after another. So people must be satisfied first of all by eating sumptuously. So instead of producing food grains, you are very much busy for producing motor tires. So motor tire will not make the hungry people satisfied. So everything is there, practical, whatever is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā.

 

Morning Walk                                           July 17, 1975, San Francisco                                                         403787

Prabhupāda: You should not talk about him, these rascals. Na tasya kāryam kāraṇam ca vidyate, na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate. This is the definition of God, that he has nothing to do personally. When Kṛṣṇa kills the demons outside Vṛndāvana, He is not original Kṛṣṇa; He is Vāsudeva. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. When Kṛṣṇa is acting universally, that is Vāsudeva. Original Kṛṣṇa is always in Vṛndāvana.

Jayatīrtha: If the original Kṛṣṇa is always in Vṛndāvana, then why do the gopīs and Rādhārāṇī feel separation from Him?

Prabhupāda: That is here, in this material world. In the spiritual world Kṛṣṇa does not leave.

Jayatīrtha: Oh.

Prabhupāda: And even in the material world, Kṛṣṇa superficially has gone to Mathurā, but He has captured the heart of the gopīs. So He is not leaving. Gopīs are enjoying Kṛṣṇa by separation. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's feeling, how He is appreciating Kṛṣṇa by separation.

 

Morning Walk                                             July 18, 1975, San Francisco                                                       403827

Prabhupāda: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive.

Brahmānanda: You want one like that for Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: They have an organ here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower.

Prabhupāda: Which tower?

Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies.

Devotee: As they fall off. (break)

Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. (break) This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are simply expert at accelerating death.

Prabhupāda: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?

Paramahaṁsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.

Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?

Paramahaṁsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...

Prabhupāda: Everyone now. India has also.

Paramahaṁsa: They're all afraid of using them.

Prabhupāda: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, right. History.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Śiva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.

Prabhupāda: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.

Bahulāśva: That is why they have wars, just so they can use up the weapons.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Paramahaṁsa: The only difficulty is that if one person uses the atomic weapon, that means entire, it would be entire waste of mankind. So everyone's afraid of using the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, they must be used. There is no doubt about it. Therefore we can say there will be war. It is no astrology. It is natural conclusion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Common sense.

Paramahaṁsa: That'd mean total destruction.

Prabhupāda: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used.

 

Room Conversation, May 5, 1976, Honolulu (Morning Walk, July 21, 1975, San Francisco in Cv.Books)     431613                                              Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant?

Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam, everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning.

Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? 24 hours?

Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that.

Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books.

Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean I think I would like to.

Prabhupāda: So what is difference?

Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: No no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? When you point out that this is the point, we differ. What is that point?

Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, they're objecting?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the difference? Has anyone objected (if you) chant more?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference?

Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say we find these instructions more clear?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you say that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction.

Bhūrijana: It's just the emphasis that was given to hari... to chanting. For myself, I know I was off track and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity toward your disciples and thinking that they..., that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and...

Prabhupāda: That is real point. That is real point.

Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell... They'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and...

Prabhupāda: He said that "We hate Kṛṣṇa" ?

Bhūrijana: No no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something that will discourage their sinful way of life. Simply they feel threatened. Not they're hating. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhūrijana: And also because...

Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books.

Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking..., how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in gettng money and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money making movement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large size books each year.

Harisauri: The thing is that the materialists will always find that. They see the devotees and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when... Just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce." So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people.

Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular?

Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman I think.

Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean?

Bhūrijana: Automatically, no.

Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing this, what is wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books.

Bhūrijana: Actually I've never really tried.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhūrijana: I've never really attempted very much.

Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books you think of them they're not very advanced.

Bhūrijana: I don't think they can do it for very long.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced.

Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long?

Hari-sauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't..., that they must be advanced actually if you look at it in the proper perspective. The ones that are continually distributing, they, they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time.

Bhūrijana: When people... Often used to make me angry when people would collect money for..., using lying terms and say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that but it wasn't very straight forward.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that they should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) ...wanting this knowledge.

Bhūrijana: But they... (break) ...so much (indistinct) is collecting, not distributing books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there.

Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also said "by hook or by crook."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity.

Prabhupāda: Just like our... What is his name?

Hari-sauri: Tripurāri? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about the power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said, "There is nothing about power." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any basic instruction about power shortage?" And he said, "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version.

Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad.

Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her. Somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think that why we should sell like that, that, "Yes, there is some solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine, and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake actually. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that "If you take the medicine I'll give you the cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him. "If you take the medicine and I'll give you cake." So is the father wrong or right?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That "If you take the medicine I'll give you cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that "You speak lie to Dronācārya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie, (break) Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why?

Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one dies, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means, that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him."

Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, I think that.. I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books.

Bhūrijana: Some I think. I think some.

Prabhupāda: But not...

Bhūrijana: Comparable amount.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. And those who are big moralists, they could not.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha-svarūpānanda. Then if they like they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things.

Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything. So they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that.

Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a... As far as I know.

Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free then why they will purchase?

Bhūrijana: If we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago.

Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. They must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must.

Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least, is that if they are not doing what you want... I mean... I'm sitting before you now and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master. I must accept.

Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies. That is... Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle.

Bhūrijana: How about just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line too. Not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct)

Hari-sauri: Sometimes the devotees are just distributing incense.

Bhūrijana: Nothing.

Hari-sauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maybe they have to pay off a loan on the temple. All the devotees are well aware that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is very (indistinct) It's not a consciousness of giving.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions.

Prabhupāda: No the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is sell books.

Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing... But do it. Make sure you do it, but do it without the wrong thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhūrijana: I feel that this is...

Prabhupāda: Besides that, if you do not take to Deity worship, then you shall remain unclean. That's a fact. (end)

 

 

 

Morning Walk                                            July 21, 1975, San Francisco                                                        404218          

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in...

Prabhupāda: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...

Bahulāśva: We should go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because they have these sprinklers on here.

Prabhupāda: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.

Paramahaṁsa: As a matter of fact there's a very famous quote from Christ...

Prabhupāda: I think Christ said that there are many things to be spoken but...

Paramahaṁsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now."

Prabhupāda: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.

Nalinī-kaṇṭha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.

Prabhupāda: Because they are fourth-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of...

Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bahulāśva: This is like Christian...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God.

Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.

Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.

Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...

Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."

Bahulāśva: So Prabhupāda, you said belief is enough?

Prabhupāda: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good.

Bahulāśva: Blind faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, catur-vidhā bhajante mām...

Jayādvaita: Janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna.

Prabhupāda: Sukṛtinaḥ arjuna. Jïānī... What is called?

Devotee (5): Ārto jijïāsur...

Prabhupāda: Ah. No, this first word, distress, ārtaḥ, ārtaḥ. Artaḥ, arthārthī, jïānī and jijïāsuḥ. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jïānī means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, viśvāsa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.

Devotee (6): It says in the Bhāgavatam...

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that viśvāsa śabde śudṛdha niścaya. Śudṛdha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Śraddhā, śraddhā. Śraddhā means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required.

Paramahaṁsa: Like a child.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Śraddhā, faith, means believing firmly. That is śraddhā, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming...

Prabhupāda: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm.

Nārāyaṇa: So faith comes from previous pious activities?

Prabhupāda: No, may not be previous activity. You believe the authority, spiritual master.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That comes from purity, faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As purity develops, one becomes more faithful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That purity is said, ādau śraddhā: "Beginning is faith." Now tato sādhu-saìgaḥ: "You mix with faithful men." Then it will develop. Otherwise, if you take simply initiation and then sleep, then faith will be lost. That is happening. Therefore it is said, adau śraddhā tato sādhu-saìgaḥ. You accept faith, maybe blindly. Now you make further progress by mixing with advanced devotees. Then it will remain fixed. Otherwise you will loss.

Bahulāśva: Faith is fixed by knowledge?

Prabhupāda: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like... Yasya deve parā bhaktiḥ yathā deve tathā gurau. So if you have got faith in spiritual master then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith.

Prabhupāda: No.

Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it is also like a child?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.

Paramahaṁsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust?

Prabhupāda: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda, what are the symptoms of purity?

Prabhupāda: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.

Yadubara: So everyone has faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone has. Therefore the direction should be taken from the perfect, and with faith you will make progress.

Nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that wherever one puts their faith, He gives them the steadiness to worship in that way. So how come so many people, they put their faith in all these false gurus or people that impose themself as ones who are in knowledge and then they become fooled? Is this previous activities? Sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jayādvaita: You explained that in your lecture yesterday, that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart and He is giving direction to remember or to forget, that sometimes He is directing to remember Him, sometimes to forget Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you have no faith, then Kṛṣṇa will not give you instruction. When he is faithless, he will not make progress. Stops.

Nārāyaṇa: But people are putting their faith in so many different places.

Prabhupāda: "So many" means he has no faith in anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say, "so many," that means he has no faith. He is faithless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? If you say that purity is required for faith to develop, what are the symptoms by which one can be said to be pure?

Prabhupāda: That is... Just like "Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." So if you have faith, you will not do it. But because you have no faith, you will do it, and therefore you will go to ruin.

Yadubara: The karmīs have faith that the sun will come up every day.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: So that is actually faith in the workings of the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith.

Yadubara: Is that faith?

Prabhupāda: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue...

Prabhupāda: That is faith--means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith, with knowledge or without knowledge.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue that Kṛṣṇa consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on...

Prabhupāda: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen--mix together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment.

Baradrāj: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: So first we hear from the guru that Kṛṣṇa is God, and we have faith in that, we chant, and then we come to know.

Prabhupāda: As you become purified, then your faith becomes fixed up with knowledge. Therefore that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam: "One who has finished his sinful life, he can become a devotee." Otherwise one cannot. First of all, beginning in faith. Then, by following the process, he becomes completely sinless. Then he, full knowledge. And so long he will be sinful, the things will be not properly manifested. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam.

Baradrāj: So knowledge is not necessary for faith but faith is necessary for knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore devotee, without any knowledge he becomes devotee. That faith, only faith. The devotee advances. Jïānaṁ ca yad ahaitukī. Later on, they become automatically full of knowledge because they have strong faith. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajïāna-jaṁ tamaḥ nāśayāmy: "Because he is faithful, therefore I help him how to get knowledge." Again you come to that. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanaṁ ca. Everything is there.

Jayādvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad-gītā, all explained and put together so nicely.

Paramahaṁsa: Blind faith is the belief that little...

Prabhupāda: Blind faith, without... That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupāda, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost.

Paramahaṁsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes, blind faith.

Paramahaṁsa: In the wrong thing.

Bahulāśva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.

Bahulāśva: This way.

Prabhupāda: I have faith in you. (break) Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no... If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed.

Baradrāj: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupāda & devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so, they look like they could cut your throat.

Bahulāśva: You have to have a lot of faith.

Prabhupāda: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many... Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith, without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. (break) ...believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith. (break)

Baradrāj: The airplane may crash.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. There is no guarantee that you will reach there. But still you have to purchase ticket. You have to get on the plane. That is faith.

Sudāmā: And all the passengers have to have faith in the captain of the plane.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the faith must be there. Without faith, you cannot go.

Paramahaṁsa: So actually that's what scientific knowledge, at least the atheistic science, is based upon, that on one hand the theists believe in faith, that there is a Supreme. But the atheist believes that "Undoubtedly there cannot be because we have not seen one."

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. The same example can be applied, that you have not gone there. How can I pay you? First of all let me go there. Then I shall pay," he may say. But he will, "Get out. First of all pay. Then you come on." (laughter) That's it.

Citsukhānanda: When we were first coming to this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we opened Bhagavad-gītā. Myself, I read. I said, "I don't understand this." So I began to clean the floor, wash the dishes, cut the vegetables...

Prabhupāda: Yes, very good.

Citsukhānanda: And then by your...

Prabhupāda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasāda. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. It begins... The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes, and why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and takefull prasādam. That's all.

Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain...

Prabhupāda: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me, and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasādam." That's all.

Jayādvaita: They had five thousand dollars worth of faith yesterday in the prasādam.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the śāstra... Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is sur-prising. How is that? But it is a fact.

Baradrāj: So to encourage their faith, therefore the sādhu must set example of purity.

Prabhupāda: Sādhu śāstra guru vākya, tinete koriyā aikya. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, ār nā koriho mane āśā. Don't go anywhere else. Take this faithfully, the orders of guru. You are singing daily. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. This is faith, strong faith. And that is described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śraddhā-śabde---viśvāsa śudṛdha niścaya. Viśvāsa, firm faith. That is śraddhā. Faith means to believe strongly. That is faith.

Paramahaṁsa: So actually, in regards to my father or atheists or scientists in general...

Prabhupāda: They are faithless.

Paramahaṁsa: They will never believe.

Prabhupāda: They are faithless; therefore they will never make any progress. Their first principle is sacrifice. And in the śāstra it, ādau śraddhā: "First of all faith." And these rascals, they have no faith. Therefore they do not make any progress. And Rūpa Gosvāmī says, ādau śraddhā: "Begin with faith." So they cannot realize, condemned, because Kṛṣṇa will withdraw the knowledge. Mattaḥ smṛtir apohanaṁ ca. So Kṛṣṇa will say, "Oh, this rascal is faithless. All right, make him more faithless. He will never understand." That is atheist.

Baradrāj: What is hope for them then?

Prabhupāda: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand.

Yadubara: What is the best way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people?

Prabhupāda: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming--faith will come.

Yadubara: They will not come.

Prabhupāda: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.

Yadubara: But if they take some prasādam, that will help them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasādam. That will help you." Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: You may be pleased to know that Karttikeya... He said he's looking forward to going to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.

Sudāmā: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Kṛṣṇa.

Citsukhānanda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupāda. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (break) ...Mukunda, Mukunda, or Murāri? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him. "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda. (indistinct) (break) ...api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, then?

Devotees: Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Śraddhāvān, That is required. If he has no faith, then he remains in darkness.

                                                                                                                                                                        404368

Sudāmā: ...Prabhupāda, either of those associations, which is the highest?

Prabhupāda: Both are equal.

Sudāmā: Both are equal?

Prabhupāda: You have to associate with both. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Both guru's kṛpā and Kṛṣṇa's kṛpā, they must be joined. Then you will get. (break)

Jayādvaita: We're very eager to get that guru-kṛpā.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Jayadwaita: We are, all of us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If you get guru's kṛpā, then automatically you get Kṛṣṇa.

Nārāyaṇa: Guru-kṛpā only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how?

Nārāyaṇa: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how it can come?

Nārāyaṇa: So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or speak with you...

Prabhupāda: That he was speaking, vāṇī and vapuḥ. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vāṇī.

Nārāyaṇa: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased?

Sudāmā: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayādvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My Guru Mahārāja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vāṇī. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vāṇī, then you are getting help.

Sudāmā: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.

Prabhupāda: No. Cakhu-dān dilo jei... What is that, next one?

Sudāmā: Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.

Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.

Paramahaṁsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: That you do not require to question. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                    July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach                                                       404899

Mr. Surface: Were some of the animals destined to survive through the destruction of other animals?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also destroying so many cows daily, although you are human being. Do you consider that "Why this cow should be slaughtered?" They are also living beings. So what about the animals? If man can slaughter so many animals daily, then if a tiger kills another one animal, what is the wrong there? That is the distinction between man and animal. Everyone has to eat somebody, and nature's law is one living being is eating another living being. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. So the snake is eating the frog, the frog is eating another small animal or some flies, and the snake is eaten by the mongoose, and the mongoose eaten by somebody else, by cat or by dog. So this is the law of nature. Therefore the human being is suggested that "You should take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Eating is required, but you don't eat like the lower animals. You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion and love leaves, vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, that I take." So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. So that is our philosophy--we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Although there is also... Maybe not killing. Because if I take this flower from the tree, the tree is not killed. If I take grains from the paddy... What is called?

Bhojadeva: Plant?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So it dies before. All these food grain plants, when the food grains are ripened, they dry. So it is not required to kill the plant. When it is already dead, you can take the food grains. When you take milk, the cow is not killed. The milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So we are taking milk means blood. The blood is in a red color, and milk is in white color, but it is blood. Unless it is blood, how so much liquid comes from the body? So we take the same blood in a very intelligible way so that cow may live, he can continue to give me more and more, and I take more benefit from the wonderful food, milk. This is intelligence. And because cow blood is very beneficial for health, if I kill the cow, that is not very good intelligence. In our New Vrindaban the cows are giving more milk than others because they know we shall not kill them. They are happy. You'll get from Bhāgavatam... Find out this verse in the First Canto, I think, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. Find this verse. (break)

Satsvarūpa:

(kāmaṁ) vavarṣa parjanyaḥ

sarva-kāma-dughā mahī

siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ

payasodhasvatīr mudā

"During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered..."

Prabhupāda: (aside:) The windows this side cannot be opened?

Satsvarūpa: "... all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bags and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: You can open this, these windows. There is no window? Just hear this.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Close?

Prabhupāda: No, open this glass window so ventilation may come. Ah. So? Yes, so read the translation.

Satsvarūpa: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: That's all. Because the cows were very cheerful, the milk was dropping from the milk bag so that the grazing ground became muddy. It was muddy not with water but with milk. So how much milk was being delivered by the cows. Because, the reason is... Why? They remained cheerful. What is that? Second line?

Satsvarūpa: "Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude,..."

Prabhupāda: "Cheerful attitude." If cows know. They have got intelligence that "We will be killed." Therefore they are not supplying sufficient milk. They cannot, just like if your mind is full of anxiety, you cannot work fully. So because they are denied this cheerfulness, you are getting less milk. If you keep them cheerful, they will give more milk. This is nature's economic development. Artificially you cannot increase the production of milk. But according to the instruction of scripture, if you keep them cheerful without any fear, they will deliver double milk. So therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that cows should be protected in the human society. If you want to eat meat, you can kill insignificant, small animal, but don't kill cows. There are other animals--hogs, pigs, goats, lambs or birds, so many, fish--if you are at all interested in meat-eating; but don't kill cow. Find out this verse from Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Those who are vaiśyas... Economic development... Vaiśya means economic development. They should produce ample food grains and give protection to the cows. Just like our Kṛṣṇa's life, His foster father was a vaiśya. So he is keeping so many hundred thousands of cows, and Kṛṣṇa was entrusted to take charge of the calves, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. So although They were very rich father's son, still They were taking the calves in the forest for tending in childhood. Still... You have seen in Māyāpur? The small children, they are taking care very nicely of the cows. After all, it is animal. The small child has got a stick, and he has been trained up how to allow them to graze. They have done. So according to Bhagavad-gītā... But that is very nice, that economic development means you produce more food grains and more milk. Then it will solve all posit... There will be no scarcity of food or happiness. Our, these Kṛṣṇa society young boys and girls, they have prepared so many nice things from milk. It is nutritious, very palatable, every..., everything. And we take food grains, fruits, milk preparation, that's all. That is very easily available. You can get enough fruits if you cultivate trees and plants. That is recommended in Bhagavad-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. What I have given, purport of that verse?

Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya?

Prabhupāda: No, kamam vavarsa parjanyaḥ.

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. Purport. "The basic principle of economic development is centered about land and cows. The necessity of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly King Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the cause of all varieties of production on the land. Regulated rains not only help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes. Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The King at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or an executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality and fraternity and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less than animal man. We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuff both for animals and men, by the grace of the father almighty, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The human being is the elder brother of all living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than the animals for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the almighty father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification. This is but the life of dogs and hogs."

Prabhupāda: Now men are killing their own children. Is it not? Even cats and dogs do not do this. Although they give birth at a time half a dozen children, still they are not anxious to kill them. (pause) So I am coming in one minute. Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why you are there?

Mr. Surface: I must leave. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him some prasāda.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: There is so much mismanagement in different parts of the world that there are so many revolutions now in all parts of the world including India, Africa and even the United States. There are so many problems based on the fact that their food grains and milk supply are not being supplied nicely or distributed nicely. Now, supposing that there is a demand that there should be good management for it, how these things should be distributed properly, by what system, so that people can get these things in a way that they can become God conscious and at the same time have their...?

Prabhupāda: God consciousness does not depend on distribution of food. It requires cultural education. It does not mean that one who has got enough food, he is God conscious. The food distribution is not one of the conditions for becoming God conscious. That is wrong project. "If people are given sufficient food, they will become God conscious"--that is not the fact. But people advance this theory, that "We are now economically distressed. We cannot turn our attention to God consciousness." That is a wrong plea. God consciousness does not depend on any material condition.

Åṣabhadeva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, earlier you had said that nature provides each species its foodstuff. But in other species other than man we see that it's immediately obtainable. But man has to work for it, and he has to wait for the fruits of his labor. Why is that nature's arrangement?

Prabhupāda: Nature's arrangement... In this material world you cannot eat without working. Even if you are lion--lion is considered to be the most powerful animal--he has to capture one animal. He cannot think that "Let me sleep, and the animal will come automatically in my mouth." It is not possible. You have to work; this is the material world. So that work is simple work. If you have got land... Everyone has got land. You just work little, and it will produce your food grains. And the food grains will give food to the animal and man. The animal, cow, he will eat the grass, and you will take the grains. Why should you kill the animal? You haven't got to arrange for his food. You produce paddy. The plant, when it is dried, it is good for animals, and you take the grains. Why should you kill him? And he will deliver you. If you protect his life, he will give you nice milk. So you keep animal, cows, and grow food grain; then your food problem is solved. So if your food problem is solved and your cloth problems is solved, then where is your economic necessity? Then you save time and cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So real business will be how to cultivate, how to become advanced in God consciousness. That the animal cannot do. You are claiming more intelligence than the animals, so use your intelligence in this way. Don't spoil day and night for your economic development. So-called economic development means as soon as you become stout and strong, then sense gratification. Then you cultivate the culture of nudism. That Los Angeles beach, "Beach for nudies." Is not written there?

 

Press Conference at Airport                             July 28, 1975, Dallas                                                              405088

Woman reporter: Would you comment on the political situation in India now. What do you think about Mrs. Gandhi's...?

Prabhupāda: Well, we are not very much concerned with political situation. But our proposition is--either political, social, economical or philosophical, anything--without Kṛṣṇa, it is all zero. So far Mrs. Gandhi is concerned, she is inclined to some spiritual understanding. So actually if she becomes very advanced spiritually, then this emergency situation will improve. Otherwise... and it is the public opinion against democracy. So democracy is not very much beneficial anywhere and everywhere. In your country also, you voted Mr. Nixon, democracy, but you were not satisfied with him. That means democracy, ordinary men they select somebody and again they try to bring him down. Why? When he was selected, it means it was a mistake. So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country--Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict. The battle of Kurukṣetra was there because Lord Kṛṣṇa wanted rājarṣi, Yudhiṣṭhira, should be on the head. So the king is supposed to be the representative of God. So he must be a godly person. Then it will be successful. That's all right. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      July 31, 1975, New Orleans                                                        405176

Prabhupāda: Why the prison house is filled up with so many criminals?

Guest: Why the prison house is filled up?

Prabhupāda: Prison house. In the state.

Guest: With so many prisoners?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Of course, many people are committing crimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committing crimes is his option or government canvasses that "You become criminal and give up"?

Guest: His option.

Prabhupāda: That's it. It is your option. You rot in this material world or go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your option. It is open to you both ways. You go to hell or go to heaven. That is your option. So human life is meant for selecting--"What shall I do? I shall go to hell or heaven?" And that is purpose. If you want to go to hell, you can go.

Guest: What does Kṛṣṇa say about truth?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is truth. Without Kṛṣṇa, everything is untruth. Truth is one. Just like zero is zero. And it is added with one, then it is ten. It is truth. So zero is zero always. Hundred million times zero--it is zero. But when there is one, immediately value increases. So without Kṛṣṇa, all this material advancement, they are all zeros. But if you bring Kṛṣṇa, then it... that increases value--ten, hundred, thousand, tens of thousands, like that, million, billions. Because the one is there. So bring Kṛṣṇa, and then everything will be value. Otherwise, all zero. You may be proud of so-called material advancement. It is zero, because it will not save you, because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: you have to change your body. So you have earned so much millions and billions of money. That's all right. But you have to go empty-handed. The money will remain here. You cannot take that money within the tomb. That is not possible. Then it is zero. You are going empty-handed. You came empty-handed and going empty-handed. You came with zero and you are going with zero. So whatever you have earned, that is zero. But if you have attempted to serve Kṛṣṇa with all these zeros, then you have taken some value. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Oh, he has done so much for Me. Let him come." Otherwise zero. What is the value of your skyscraper building and billions of dollars in the bank? You cannot take it with you. And this is called māyā. You cannot take it with you; still, you are struggling hard day and night. This is called māyā. Not a single farthing you will be able to take with you, and still, you are simply happy. They are called "asses." Just like asses, they have so much big burden, but nothing of the burden belongs to him. Mūòha. They are called mūòha, asses. For nothing happiness, which he will never be able to take with him. What do they say? They are doing it for next generation.

Guest: Posterity.

Prabhupāda: He is not interested for himself. He is interested for his generation, which he will kill as soon as he's rebellious. Just see the argument.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, should everyone move to the temple?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee (1): Live here?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Invite him. But who is coming here? Nobody is coming.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Does this mean you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in His two-armed form playing the flute at every moment?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Devotee (2): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then? Seeing means Kṛṣṇa as He is. That's all. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. You never read Brahma-saṁhitā? Do you read?

Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. What you have of the Brahma-saṁhitā in your books.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who are saintly persons, they always see Kṛṣṇa within his heart. Everyone can see if he tries. Why you and me? Anyone can see. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. But He is not open to the rascals. That is Kṛṣṇa's distinguish... Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. He is open to everyone, but not to all others, only to the devotee.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Paramātmā feature is in the heart.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): And the pure devotee, does he see the Paramātmā feature or does he see...?

Prabhupāda: When you see Kṛṣṇa, you see Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. If you see... Just like when you see the sun, you see sunlight also. The sun... We see the sun globe, the sun light, simultaneously. Nobody says, "I am seeing the sun but not the sunshine." Is it? (laughter) He is seeing everything. He is seeing everything.

Devotee (3): But does he focus his mind upon the two-armed...?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of focus or no focus. One who sees Kṛṣṇa, he sees everything. Yasmin vijïāte sarvam evaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavanti. There is no question of imagination. This is fact. What is that?

Satsvarūpa:

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya

yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ

mūòho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti

loko mām ajam avyayam

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is foolish, nonintelligent, he cannot see Kṛṣṇa. Means Kṛṣṇa does not reveal to him. They never see. Next?

Satsvarūpa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Prabhupāda: If you have no qualification to see Him, even Kṛṣṇa comes before you, you cannot see. You will see Him--"Oh, He's an ordinary man like me," because you are not qualified to see Him. But when you become qualified, you will see Him always. Kuntidevi said, "Kṛṣṇa, You are within and without; still, they cannot see You." If Kṛṣṇa is within and without, there are two things. Still, the example is given, naṭo nāṭya-dharo yathā. Just like a friend or a family member playing on the stage, and somebody says that "Your brother is playing." "Oh, where is my brother? Where is my brother?" "He is just playing this part, taken this part." "Oh." So he requires the help. Otherwise he cannot see. Even he sees his brother or father playing on the stage, he cannot see. The example is very nice. Naṭo nāṭya-dharo yathā. He sees his brother at home, but he cannot see on the stage. Everything requires qualification. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for qualifying you to see God twenty-four hours. This is sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you learn this art, then you will see God twenty-four hours, without any stop. And that is accepted by Kṛṣṇa, that yoginām api... "He is first class who has learned to see God always in his..." Yogi means that. Yogi does not mean to play some magic. Magician also can play some magic. A devotee is not interested to show any magic, but he is interested to see the magician, supreme, who is playing so much magic. The yogis, they are thinking that "If I can play some magic, then so many people will applaud, and that is my success." But a devotee doesn't want anything. A devotee wants to see who is playing the magic, supreme magician, yogeśvara. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. Find out, yatra yogeśvara hariḥ, Kṛṣṇa, Eighteenth Chapter. The supreme master of all yogic, mystic yoga, Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa:

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo

yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ

tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir

dhruvā nītir matir mama

"Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion."

Prabhupāda: Where there is Kṛṣṇa and His devotee, all opulences, all power, all strength, everything is there. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārthaḥ. Wherever there is Arjuna... Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa were on the chariot. Whole battlefield became victorious on behalf of Arjuna. That is wanted. A devotee must be there, and Kṛṣṇa must be there. Then all opulences will come. That is the secret. Why a devotee shall go to the forest for meditating or acquiring some mystic powers? He doesn't require anything. If he keeps Kṛṣṇa always with him, then everything will... Yes. Is there any purport?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Purport. The Bhagavad-gītā began with an inquiry by Dhṛtarāṣṭra." (break)

Guest: Could you speak to us on giving thanks to the Lord?

Satsvarūpa: Could you speak about giving thanks to the Lord.

Prabhupāda: That is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa always. That's all. All of us, we are keeping these beads. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, what can you say to someone who says, "Lord Jesus fed thousands of people fish"? What can you tell them?

Prabhupāda: If there is nothing available, what can be done? But when you have got such orange, such nice fruits, and rice and dahl and milk, why should you eat fish? After all, you have to eat something. If such nice foods are not available, you can eat fish. But when very nice foods are available, why should you? In other place Christ said that "These vegetables should be your meat," like that?

Satsvarūpa: In Genesis, the very beginning of the Old Testament. "The plants shall be your meat."

Prabhupāda: One must eat something. The nature's law is that sahastānā... Sahastānām ahastāni. And catuṣ-padam. That is the arrangement by nature's way, that animals, they have no hands. So the primitive life, so they become food for the primitive natives or uncivilized man. They kill some animals and eat. And why civilized man do so? He can produce his food. God has given him land. He has intelligence. Just like our temple commander was telling us. He has got immense opportunity... Just explain to them about you are producing with the farm.

Nityānanda: We have a farm and we are producing all kinds of foodstuffs for men and animals.

Prabhupāda: This is our product, to produce for the animal, (indistinct). So the animal eats it and he gives you milk. He's not eating (indistinct). He gives you the nicest food, full of vitamins. And you can prepare from milk hundreds and thousands of so many palatable things. That is civilization. And this is not civilization: "Because cow is so potential, so let me eat the cow." "Guru is so sattvic, spiritual; let me eat guru. Then I will be..." (laughter) This is philosophy. Cow is so full of vitamin, valuable. But civilization is that "Why should you eat the animal? Take the milk." What is this milk? Milk is nothing but the blood. So civilization means let the cow live, and you take the milk, which is nothing but blood. When the mother feeds the child with milk, wherefrom the milk comes? Milk comes from the blood of the mother. Therefore the mother is supplied nutritious food so that she can produce milk for the child. Similarly, cow is mother. What is this philosophy, "Kill the mothers and eat?" "Kill the child and eat?" What is this nonsense? Such crude things are going on in the name of civilization. You are manufacturing billion motor cars, and you cannot manufacture your food? God has given you so much land. This is not civilization. Civilization is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization. One should be intelligent enough. Education must be directed in that way. But they do not know. Actually, they do not know it, that "My aim of life is how to go home, back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals are trying to adjust things here materially and becoming more complicated, killing father, mother, and child even. (break) This is not civilization. Human being must be civilized. To know the goal of life and do it properly. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā: "You rascal, give up all these so-called engagements. Surrender unto Me." This is civilization. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is civilization. Then you will be all right. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... You are engaged in so many sinful activities, as... Don't manufacture civilization. Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṇa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men. And less than fourth-class, fifth-class. So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications, second-class these are the qualifications, third-class, fourth-class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body--the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal.

Nityānanda: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but how the nature's law is strong. Woman has to become pregnant, not the man. Why equal right? Let the man become pregnant once. Woman became pregnant once. The right. Where is that law? So why equal right? Brahmānanda was saying one day they'll not mix with man.

Nityānanda: Yes, they want to become not dependent sexually, even on the men. Just on themselves.

Prabhupāda: So you have to study first of all what is nature's law. You cannot surpass the nature's law. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. Nature's law will go on. Best thing is, let the hand... the hand can typewrite, but if you say "No, the leg will typewrite," that is not possible. Take hand's business, take leg's business, and combine them cooperatively. Then the body will be nice. If the leg says "Why hand will type? I shall type," that's not possible. "Legs, all right, you walk, and hands that you type." Then combine together. Then it will be nice. You cannot change the different capacities. There is God's law, nature's law. Let the man and woman combine together, live peacefully. The woman takes charge of the household affairs, the man may take charge of bringing money, and they meet together, have Deity at home, together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? That is unity. Combine together, working differently but for the same purpose, for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then you will become happy. That is equality. Unity in variety. That is wanted. Variety is enjoyment. Variety is not disturbing. Just like Kṛṣṇa gave, all of them fruits, but variety. They are coming from the same source, earth, but Kṛṣṇa is so intelligent--varieties of fruit, varieties of flowers, varieties of grain, varieties of brain. That is enjoyment. So, take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Why He is sending so many varieties? He could have given one fruit, the coconut. With great difficulty to chop it you can get out the water, no? There are so many nice fruits. Just see Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. So Kṛṣṇa has made the varieties. Why should you disturb? Let the variety be united, just like these varieites are united, and it looks nice, and if you eat that will be nice. Why you want to stop the variety? That is Māyāvādī. Equality does not mean to stop variety. All the varieties combine together for the same purpose. That is required. Is it not? One must know how to put the variety to look very (indistinct). If all the vases have only rose flowers it would not have been so beautiful. Rose is costly, but the leaves are not costly. But the leaves and the rose fit together, it becomes very good variety. That art is required, how to keep varieties together for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and look very beautiful. This art is known to the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, not to the fools and rascals. Why Kṛṣṇa has made varieties? Why you should try to change? That is lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When Kṛṣṇa has made so many varieties there is some purpose. That one should understand. That is intelligence. You can organize these farms very nicely. Then this devil's workshop will stop.

Nityānanda: What will stop?

Prabhupāda: The devil's workshop, without proper engagement there is devil's workshop.

Devotee: Someday I'll take, later on...

Brahmānanda: They have difficulty in understanding how all the varieties can cooperate, because they don't have the center. They don't have a center; therefore to have varieties cooperating is difficult for them to understand.

Prabhupāda: Center to please, just like we have kept these varieties of flowers, to please me.

Brahmānanda: Because you're the center.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: But they have not center.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I have given center, Kṛṣṇa.

Brahmānanda: Yes, that is..., therefore we can solve this commotion.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Give this garland... Center is Kṛṣṇa. That I (indistinct) to say. Bring one, the zeros will have value. And if you get out the one, all zeros. This is our philosophy. (pause) World can be ruled, they believe so also. Is that

Brahmānanda: The modern civilization has made everything easy, everything convenient.

Prabhupāda: Not easy, difficult.

Brahmānanda: Well as far as doing one's life's activities, they make it easy for you, buying in the supermarket, canned food, it's already cooked, you put it in the oven, five minutes it's ready. They have laundry machines.

Prabhupāda: That is not very healthy.

Brahmānanda: Oh, no. But they have made it so that there's less...

Prabhupāda: They are impetus to catch their disease.

Brahmānanda: So these are the reactions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The disease is already there, but we have made such a disease that it will be incurable.

Nityānanda: They're giving the water out of it to make it dry.

Prabhupāda: What you do with this when it is dry?

Nityānanda: Put it in a silo, to preserve it and feed it to the cows later. In this silo the grass will keep good for many years without spoiling by heat. Then after it dries a little more this machine, it stuffs it and puts it in a wagon. It picks it up from the field.

Prabhupāda: Then what you do with that?

Nityānanda: Then you take the wagon to the silo, and put it in the silo, so that it fills. Now you put the wagon with the cut grass up at the bottom of the silo, and it comes out, and loads it up to the silo.

Prabhupāda: So you have got up-to-date machines... For feeding these animals. Eh? They are made for feeding the animals? Eh? Enough food for them and take milk. Why they should be killed? There is no problem. So teach those yogis about the real idea, like that.

Satsvarūpa: Is it all right to use modern machines on our farms?

Prabhupāda: As far as possible don't use machine. Let people be engaged.

Satsvarūpa: Animals?

Prabhupāda: Animal. Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Not gas-driven engine.

Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossipping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti. As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have?

Nityānanda: No, you can make them.

Prabhupāda: How? How low is the water?

Nityānanda: Ten feet.

Prabhupāda: Ten feet, oh, just like Bengal. As soon as you dig ten feet there is water.

Nityānanda: No, it's ah, when you have a gulley, you build a dam at one end and it fills up with water from the rain, and it stays full.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the rain is sufficient here? How many months it rain?

Nityānanda: There is no definite rainy season, it rains all year round.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very good. Winter?

Nityānanda: No snow, it's always rain. We can grow vegetables in the summer, and different vegetables in the winter. So the cows they can stay outside all year. They don't have to stay in the barn, it's warm enough.

Prabhupāda: Very ideal spot. Develop it and show how we can live peacefully.

Nityānanda: This combination of a temple in the city where they can preach and bring people out to their farm is very good.

Prabhupāda: ...healthy place.

Nityānanda: So mostly gṛhasthas should stay on the farms, or brahmacārīs also?

Prabhupāda: No, brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs especially they should preach. And gṛhasthas may produce necessities. They also preach, preaching everyone. Especially for brahmacārī and sannyāsī. (end)

 

Walk Around Farm                                   August 1, 1975, New Orleans                                                       405283

(kīrtana in background)

Nityānanda: Our sugarcane field is down there. (break)

Devotee (1): ...all right?

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I have seen all that.

Devotee (1): This is kīrtana. (a child? cow?)

Prabhupāda: Kirtana? (laughter) That's all right. Have kīrtana.

Nityānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is ours?

Nityānanda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Where the trees are?

Nityānanda: Way over the hill and back down there is all ours. In this field we have the calves. And in this field here we have the big cows.

Prabhupāda: It is not now utilized?

Nityānanda: Not... No. We are just growing hay. Grass for hay. We can sell the hay in the winter for a good price.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible to walk. (break) ...it is born?

Nityānanda: This one? Last week. His name is... Her name is Lakṣmī. There is more over here. (break) Bull calves. We are getting more bulls than females.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Nityānanda: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Then how utilize the bulls?

Nityānanda: To plow?

Prabhupāda: Plow, transport. You have to engage more men for plowing. Two bulls will be required for each plow.

Nityānanda: We can go this way maybe? See the sugarcane?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: This is not taking this yet?

Prabhupāda: No. Why?

Nityānanda: We just cut it two days ago, and then it rained. We have to wait for it to dry before you can...

Prabhupāda: They will not be spoiled.

Nityānanda: Yes, if it stays here too long, it will spoil.

Prabhupāda: And it rains.

Devotee (2): We will take it to the garden.

Prabhupāda: Then it will be soil? It will be fertilizer soil? Or no. When it is decomposed? (break) Drinking water?

Nityānanda: Milk.

Prabhupāda: Milk. (laughter) That is meant for calves? Those milk?

Nityānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Nityānanda: The barn.

Prabhupāda: No, this part.

Nityānanda: Oh, that's the door. It fell off. These are orange trees here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. How long it will take to grow?

Nityānanda: Well, some down here already have a few oranges, but it will take a few years before they give a lot. They are very sweet kind. (break)

Prabhupāda: So small still. They are growing. (break)

Nityānanda: ...sugarcane here. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...grow very high. (break) ...trees?

Nityānanda: Pine trees.

Brahmānanda: You can use those for making the cabins, cottages?

Nityānanda: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...natural arrangement. Jungles--you cut the tree, make your home, and balance you make fuel. And the ground, plow and grow your food. That's all, natural.

Jagadīśa: Everything.

Prabhupāda: In India still, in the villages they do not know, other than this wood fuel, anything else. They are misusing these trees by cutting, manufacturing paper, heaps of paper, in each house throwing daily. They do not read, but they are supplied heaps of paper and cutting these trees. Simply waste. Now wood and paper shortage all over the world. It takes so much time to grow, and one day they cut hundreds of trees like this and put into the paper mill. And heaps of paper is given every house, and he throws away. Then you bring garbage tank. In this way, waste.

Nityānanda: There are some beehives down here behind this building. I have twelve, and every year we can get hundreds of pounds of honey. Honey is very nice because it does not spoil, just like ghee. It can keep for many, many months, or a long time. We can go up here to see the cows if you like. Right now they are milking them.

Prabhupāda: So if we go, it will be disturbed?

Nityānanda: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: This is one sugarcane each? No. Two, three?

Nityānanda: Yes, at least three. People here in the country, they have lots of land, and they can grow the sugarcane very easily, but they will rather go to the store to buy the sugar.

Prabhupāda: Because they want to live in the city. That is the... Here if they grow, then they will be engaged here. They cannot go to the city.

Brahmānanda: They grow cash crops, make money, and then go spend it in the city.

Nityānanda: The principal livelihood of our neighbors is to grow cows for slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all over Western countries.

Nityānanda: They don't have to work. They simply put some cows in their field, and when the price is high, they sell them. In this way they live.

Brahmānanda: What is the attitude of the neighbors to us here? They like us?

Nityānanda: Pretty friendly.

Brahmānanda: There's a papaya.

Prabhupāda: They grow nicely here?

Nityānanda: Er, we're trying. I don't know yet.

Devotee (3): Would you like to be fanned, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Harikeśa: Just keep the flies away.

Prabhupāda: He is very friendly to the small calves, this child?

Nityānanda: Yes. That's my boy.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Nityānanda: His name is Vimala.

Jagadīśa: He chases them all over.

Prabhupāda: Just see. That is the difference between animal and man. A child can control so many calves. Kṛṣṇa was doing that. One stick in the hand of a child can control fifty cows. The child is controller of many cows; a man is controller of many children. In this way, controller, controller, controller, over, over, over... When there is final controller, that is Kṛṣṇa. Éśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. This is the definition of Kṛṣṇa: "the final controller."

Nityānanda: Here is the cows here. We can see them from here.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nityānanda: Inside the barn they are milking two at a time. And upstairs we keep all the hay.

Brahmānanda: You keep figures on how much each milk per cow every day?

Nityānanda: You hear it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then how the milk will be utilized?

Nityānanda: We make sweet rice and burfi, we take the cream to make butter and ghee, and all extra milk is made into curd. So it is all used. Thirty gallons a day.

Prabhupāda: One gallon means 6 pounds?

Nityānanda: Eight and a half.

Prabhupāda: Eight and a half pounds. In Vrindaban they get 1,000 pounds daily, New Vrindaban. What is that cottage?

Nityānanda: That what?

Devotees: Cottage there.

Nityānanda: That's a little house for the pump, water pump.

Prabhupāda: This fencing was done before?

Nityānanda: Before. This farm was once owned by a person who grew race horses for racing and gambling.

Prabhupāda: Racing is also gambling.

Brahmānanda: How much did you pay for it?

Nityānanda: The farm? 170,000. This field here is millet. It's a grass for the cows to eat. They give lots of milk because they eat this grass. Very nutritious.

Prabhupāda: You are not producing for man?

Nityānanda: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Any grains for man?

Nityānanda: No, we're not growing any grains for man right now. We have fruit trees in the yard. Pears, peaches, plums, figs.

Prabhupāda: Some growing?

Nityānanda: Not very much. They are very young. We just planted them. In a few years we will get lots of fruit.

Prabhupāda: Here the land is mixed with some stones? No.

Nityānanda: I think they put this here, this gravel.

Prabhupāda: There is no mango tree here? No.

Nityānanda: No what?

Brāhmaṇada: Mango trees.

Nityānanda: We have some growing at the house.

Prabhupāda: Vegetables you are growing?

Nityānanda: Yes. We have a garden across the street. All these big trees are pecan trees. We have twenty. All this land across the road here that is cleared is ours, all the way up to the trees.

Prabhupāda: (reading sign?) "Cow protection and God consciousness. Visitors welcome." That's nice. So, which way we shall go now? Cow protection, they are surprised: "What is this nonsense, cow protection?" Huh? Do they say? "Cow is for eating, and you are protecting?" There are falls?(?)

Nityānanda: Falls?(?) No. This is our small garden.

Prabhupāda: Fruits and flowers. No, only fruits. What you are doing, flowers?

Nityānanda: This is okra.

Prabhupāda: Oh, okra.

Nityānanda: And sweet potatoes. And we have eggplants, tomatoes, and peppers here.

Prabhupāda: They give daily some fruits?

Nityānanda: Yes. And then we grow potatoes too.

Prabhupāda: Oh, where? Which side?

Nityānanda: Well, the spring crop was already harvested. We have to plant the fall potatoes in a few weeks. We'll put them over there by the fence.

Prabhupāda: So it is nice farm. This is squash?

Nityānanda: That's a cantaloupe plant.

Prabhupāda: Oh, cantaloupe. You can grow cantaloupe here?

Nityānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And also watermelon?

Nityānanda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: There is one big watermelon on the vine up there. Perhaps it's ready to eat.

Prabhupāda: We are getting similar land, 600 acres, in Hyderabad.

Nityānanda: We can go this way, here. This is all our machinery here.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So already some machine idle. You had to spend so much, but they are lying idle. That is not good. That is the defect of machine. If you cannot ply it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmānanda: If you cannot what?

Prabhupāda: It is dead loss if you cannot work with the machine.

Brahmānanda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: But when you go to purchase you have to pay lots of money. Now they will be rusty with water and gradually useless. How much money you have invested?

Nityānanda: Thousands.

Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the defect of machine. If you cannot utilize it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmānanda: Where are the tractors kept?

Nityānanda: One's at the house, and one's in the field.

Prabhupāda: So they have to be utilized or rejected, these machines?

Nityānanda: Yes, they all have a purpose. We use them from time to time.

Prabhupāda: But now they are kept open and the...

Nityānanda: Well, we are building a shed to keep them out of the rain.

Prabhupāda: In the meantime it will be finished. By the time you finish your shed, it is finished. Śāstre śāstre dal phariyaga.(?) "Some women were dressing to go to a fair, and when they were dressed, the fair was finished." (laughter) Utilize them. Otherwise, while they are in working order, sell them. Don't keep in that way, neglected way. Either utilize it or sell it at any cost. Otherwise they are useless.

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupāda? A materialist or someone who wouldn't know, he may say that when the bull is not plowing, all he is doing is eating. You have to pay money to feed him grain or to grow grain to feed the bull.

Prabhupāda: They will grow, and they will eat. Rather, they will help you for your eating. The father also eats, but he maintains the family. Therefore the bull is considered as father and the cow as mother. Mother gives milk, and the bull grows food grains for man. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu first challenged that Kazi that "What is your religion, that you eat your father and mother?" Both the bulls and the cows are important because the bull will produce food grain and the cow will give supply milk. They should be utilized properly. That is human intelligence. This is filling up with paddy or...? No?

Nityānanda: With food for the cows. This one has forage or fodder, and that one has grain.

Prabhupāda: So everything is for the animals. Nothing for the man?

Nityānanda: The cows give us milk.

Prabhupāda: That's all? And you are not growing any food grains? Why?

Nityānanda: Er... We've been trying to establish self-sufficient cow protection program first, to grow our own food for the cows.

Brahmānanda: There is no land available for growing rice or wheat?

Nityānanda: Yes, but the number of devotees we have to do it...

Brahmānanda: But you have so many machines.

Prabhupāda: All these machines require oiling and keeping nicely. Otherwise it will spoil.

Devotees in distance: All glories to Srila Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are starting?

Brahmānanda: They are starting back.

Nityānanda: Down the road we have fifteen acres of sorghum, grain for the cows.

Prabhupāda: And everything for the cows, but what for the man? They will give everything for cows because they will eat cows, other farmers. But you utilize the animals for growing your food.

Brahmānanda: The idea is we should maintain the animals, but then the animals should provide foodstuffs for the men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: And that way there is cooperation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped in spite of that... instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, "What we shall do with so many bulls?"

Nityānanda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen.

Prabhupāda: No, what the oxen will do?

Nityānanda: Plow the fields.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields.That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will think, "What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them." Which one? Huh? That? We shall get on?

Brahmānanda: Yes. (end)

 

Room Conversation with Devotees                             August 1, 1975, New Orleans                                     405431

Prabhupāda: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, śamaḥ, damaḥ, fully controlled. When they like, they become gṛhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brāhmaṇa. For brāhmaṇa it is not compulsory to marry. Kṣatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls' marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.

Hṛdayānanda: From the husband.

Prabhupāda: At least for one and half years.

Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother's milk for six months at least continually, he'll become healthy for life.

Upendra: Where do they send that mother?

Prabhupāda: Where they'll take care.

Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she...?

Prabhupāda: Our aim is not to give help, but not... Generally she goes to the father's house. So you can have separate building for that.

Nityānanda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife?

Prabhupāda: I have no objection.

Satsvarūpa: That's a difficult proposition.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Satsvarūpa: It's not allowed in this country. It's illegal. It's against the law.

Devotee: It's against the law.

Nityānanda: No, it's a matter of... No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have...

Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult.

Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.

Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

Satsvarūpa: Everything we do, we don't hide it. We show the world what we're doing. I don't see how we could hide that one man had many different wives.

Prabhupāda: If you don't call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling "husband," call "friend." That's all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.

Brahmānanda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.

Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.

Nityānanda: The general public objects to that... It's very...

Prabhupāda: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūòhas, they have been described, mūòhas. You know the meaning of mūòha?

Devotee (1): Ass.

Prabhupāda: Ass. Mūòho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama.

Nityānanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?

Prabhupāda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community.

Devotee (1): Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men... They can (indistinct) responsible.

Prabhupāda: No, it is service (?).

Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupāda... When I heard about New Vrindaban... I've not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I've talked with devotees have been there.

Prabhupāda: Near.

Upendra: One would think because there's land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables... I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the... That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk?

Upendra: I don't know. I can't say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk...

Prabhupāda: I don't think so.

Devotee (1): I have heard that.

Prabhupāda: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they... Just like Nanda Mahārāja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they... Instead of dahl, they use this whey, for chapati. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct).

Satsvarūpa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other...

Prabhupāda: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They'll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don't convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become... What is called?

Brahmānanda: Curd.

Prabhupāda: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandeśa, rasagullā and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayātrā festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it--"Very nice."

Brahmānanda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy-five cents.

Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. Nobody should sit down. Brāhmaṇas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven't got to work. Sannyāsī is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, and rajo-guṇa very active, and sattva-guṇa, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guṇa, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guṇa means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guṇa. Every saintly man can avoid these two things--laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman--all. Then it will be ideal society.

Nityānanda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?

Prabhupāda: Hand machine.

Nityānanda: Hand machine?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nityānanda: Metal?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.

Brahmānanda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.

Prabhupāda: And all criminals.

Brahmānanda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.

Prabhupāda: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that "What to do about crime?" This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.

Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.

Prabhupāda: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl's getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.

Satsvarūpa: That's very prominent.

Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on.

Brahmānanda: So this is the varṇāśrama system that you are...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...?

Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain--simply they can carry out order--they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.

Devotee (1): Distributing books?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.

Devotee: What kind of tax?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn't require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they'll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent."

Brahmānanda: Twenty-five percent of the produce?

Prabhupāda: Whatever you have produced.

Brahmānanda: Not necessarily money.

Prabhupāda: No.

Brahmānanda: But the produce.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: The grains or the milk or whatever.

Prabhupāda: Whatever, yes. "Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land." So that is resource of the land.

Devotee (1): How does the kṣatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?

Prabhupāda: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they'll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they'll have respect?

Devotee (1): So the kṣatriya is the predominator of the land.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya is the owner of the land.

Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: ...palace.

Prabhupāda: They, śūdras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. "Eat and work, take some pocket..." They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They'll drink. That's all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That's all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred storey building and...? And then you don't produce anything, eat fish. "And let me eat..." Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.

Jagadīśa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called... In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king.

Devotee (1): Just like Nanda Mahārāja, he also had land. Nanda Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaiśya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the gopīs. (laughter) Then mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, "My good son is sleeping." And the gopīs also would come at a place and they'll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king. In the Kṛṣṇa's life, He's always busy. Kṛṣṇa... You'll never find from the very beginning of His life He's busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They'll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is there. He will kill." This is Vṛndāvana. There is no need and I don't find in Bhāgavata big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don't live in the city, you don't require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that "You are going to the farm in a car." So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart--where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory.

Satsvarūpa: Insurance.

Prabhupāda: Insur... So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, "In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted." They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.

Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...

Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give.

Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...

Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then... Take your time (?).

Nityānanda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Jagadīśa: Cobbler?

Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa--teacher means brāhmaṇa--and eating meat--Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy--you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary--indigestion. "Indigestion, starve." This is nature's law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that "You don't do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries." Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others' distress. This is Vaiṣṇava. (end)

 

Car Conversation                                          August 3, 1975, Detroit                                                            405541

Prabhupāda: "Money means happiness." This is the civilization. And after getting money, drink wine and topless, bottomless, and go to hell." That's all. This is their position, mūòha, rākṣasa, thinking that "I am living this fifty years or hundred years so luxuriantly. That is the fulfillment of life." Because he does not know the life is eternal, one spot he is taking very important. The meaning of life, what is the aim of life--"Don't bother. Enjoy." And what is that enjoyment? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. Is that enjoyment? (break) ...used in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūòha, it is very appropriate. No knowledge. Not only here, throughout the whole universe, even in the upper planetary system, they are also engaged in the same foolishness. Greater fool and a smaller fool. (break) ...sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. That part is Canada?

Prabhupāda: ...people, just like China or India. The American invite them, "Come here. Grow your food." Immediately world solution. But they won't... "No, we shall keep it jungle. Still, we shall not allow you to come here." (break) ...come here to hunt. No?

Jagadīśa: No.

Ambarīṣa: I think they are protected. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...those who were killing tigers and not that, by making arrangement from behind, no.

Brahmānanda: Ah, they would come face to face.

Prabhupāda: Yes, face to face. Yes. Where there is tiger, a kṣatriya, would meet him with a sword. That's all. "Come on. You attack and be killed." Even twenty years before, the king of Jaipur, every year he should go in the forest and kill one tiger personally. And the dead tiger will be brought in procession. He'd be given... Just like a prince or king dies--his body is taken in procession--tiger would be brought that way. Both of them, kṣatriyas... So the tiger should be given the honor of a prince. (break) ...means enemy is going out of fear of life and showing his backside, then he will not be killed. (break)

Morning Walk                                                August 6, 1975, Detroit                                                           405773

Ādi-keśava: When we were coming over here, we were discussing how in this whole park, there is this big huge park, and only two or three men maintain the whole park because they don't have enough money to pay them. Yet if you go to the street not so far down from the temple, there are so many men just sitting in the street doing nothing all day long. And yet they say there is a shortage of men to work in this place to make it nice.

Prabhupāda: It is defective training, bad civilization. They cannot employ everyone. (break) ...religion stresses that everyone should be engaged. No one should remain idle. That is the government's duty. Bad government.

Ādi-keśava: But the government says it is every man's freedom to work or not to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his irresponsible government: "It is man's freedom--he may eat or may not eat." It is saying like that.

Ambarīṣa: They would rather not work if they don't have to.

Prabhupāda: Why we are working? Eh? Why we are not for that freedom, that "We shall not work"? Why we have engaged ourself for working?

Ādi-keśava: For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So therefore must be the real center. Nobody is paying us any salary, superficially. But why we are working? (break) Therefore the slavery was there--"You must work." Those who are śūdras will not work. Therefore the slavery was there. (break)

Ādi-keśava: In this country, when they had the slavery, the masters were not qualified either.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect. That is the defect. Either the master is defective or the servant is defective or the system is defective. That is material world. Doṣa-catuḥsthānī, four

faults: mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfectness. (break) ...the struggle for existence--one mistake after one mistake, one illusion after one, one imperfectness after another. Like that, it is going on. (break)

Mādhavānanda: It's our duty in society to show everyone how to work for Kṛṣṇa and become happy in life.

Prabhupāda: That is yajïa. To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajïa. Yajïarthe karma: "For yajïa, performing yajïa, one has to work." To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajïa. That is performance of yajïa. (break) ...Communistic idea is borrowing this idea from... But because they are imperfect, they have made center, state. And because it is imperfect, it is not successful. They have made center the state. (break) Tamo-guṇa means laziness and sleep. The śūdras, they are in laziness and sleep. So if they have got something to eat, they will not work. Laziness. Or eat more and sleep. This is tamo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means they are working for sense gratification. That is also useless. Tamo-guṇa is laziness and sleeping, and rajo-guṇa means working foolishly or for sense gratification. And sattva-guṇa means they know how to work. And therefore above this sattva-guṇa they become devotee, work for Kṛṣṇa. So without working for Kṛṣṇa, everyone is under the spell of these modes of material nature. And there is no training how to work for Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect of modern civilization.

 

Morning Walk                                                August 12, 1975, Paris                                                             405927

Mādhavānanda: ...thinks that they have some responsibility in the world, and if you say all of a sudden that "You have no responsibility..."

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "Yes, you have responsibility so long you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious," not that a person who is not in the devotional service of the Lord, he can say, "I have no responsibil..." He cannot say.

Bhagavān: Duty.

Prabhupāda: He cannot. He has all the duties. But one who has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any reservation, he has no duty. He has no respons...

devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇaṁ pitṛṇaṁ

nayam ṛṇī na kiìkaro rājan

sarvātmanā ye śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ

gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kārtam

This is the statement. As soon as we take birth, we have got so many responsibilities. We are responsible to perform sacrifices for all the demigods. You are taking light from the sun. You have got responsibility. Otherwise how you are getting so much light? If you don't pay the electric bill, the next day it will be disconnected. And you are taking so much light from the sun. You have no responsibility? You have. "No, there is no responsibility. You are taking light, air, water. So many things you are taking, supplied by the different demigods. Deva, ṛṣi, ṛṣi, great... Just like Vyāsadeva or many other ṛṣis, they have given you knowledge, and you have no responsibility? You have responsibility.

Mādhavānanda: Then the responsibility for some is to Kṛṣṇa; the responsibility of some is to the demigods?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods, you have got responsibility. Deva, ṛṣi, bhūta, living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. You have the responsibility to protect it, but you are killing. So you must suffer.

Bhagavān: So the present system is simply expert at producing completely irresponsible people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are talking of responsibility. But one who is devotee... Eh?

Bhagavān: They say we are irresponsible.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible. We have finished all responsibility. We are not irresponsible. But we are in such a position that we have passed all these responsibilities.

Mādhavānanda: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you told this lady, this woman last night, that she should give up her responsibilities...

Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only respons... Then you can... Not that you give up all responsibility. First of all take to Kṛṣṇa responsibility. Then there is no responsibility. Give up something; take something. Then it is all right. And give up everything and then you zero.

Brahmānanda: But they see responsibility only in terms of making a bank balance and having a nice home and satisfying our...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. In spite of bank balance, they are suffering.

Harikeśa: (whispering) ...finding it impossible on that side. Excuse me. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...said, suppose you have not done your responsibility properly, so then you have become sinful. Hm? Is it not? So Kṛṣṇa gives assurance that "You surrender to Me, and I give you protection from all sins." So even you think that "By giving up my all other responsibilities I am taking shelter of You. Then I will be punishable for my sinful act," so Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Then where is my responsibility? I become free immediately, provided I surrender to Kṛṣṇa without any reservations. Then. Then it is. Otherwise not.

 

Morning Walk                                            August 27, 1975, Vrndavan                                                         406748

Akṣayānanda: I've seen dogs follow saìkīrtana party for many miles. Once a dog was following, and he had tilaka, he had a tilaka mark on his head.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Who? Who marked it? Somebody? No, no. You should not do it.

Brahmānanda: Did someone put tilaka on the dog?

Akṣayānanda: Oh, I mean to say the color of his body was such.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. But you cannot put tilaka. Don't make tilaka so cheap. Natural tilaka, that is another thing.

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

French devotee (2): If a devotee step on the ant, does the ant receive some benefit?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

French devotee (2): If a devotee step on a ant by mistake, the ant...

Prabhupāda: You should be careful. Why should you commit mistake? But if unconsciously, by mistake it is done, that is another thing.

Brahmānanda: He wants to know does the ant receive benefit?

Prabhupāda: No. Then he will be lenient to kill them to give them benefit. (laughter) He'll be so...

Brahmānanda: Like they say "mercy killing," that "This is good for you. I will kill you and it is good for you."

Prabhupāda: Yes. You should always think that you are responsible for its killing. But it may be Kṛṣṇa may excuse you. That is another thing. Consciously you cannot kill. (break)

 

Morning Walk                                           September 3, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     407153

Prabhupāda: As soon as you make "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion," "Christian religion," immediately it is not religion, immediately. Because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Why does He say, sarva-dharmān parityajya? (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Because that is not religion. The so-called religions which are going on, they are not religion. That we do not say at the present moment because you are not so strong. But we have to say that. There is no religion. All cheating. Why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya? Why?

Akṣayānanda: Because there is no other religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no religion.

Akṣayānanda: That is actual religion, surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Everything else is cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating others, cheating himself. Just like this animal sacrifice. The man who is sacrificing, he is cheating himself, and he is cheating others also. (break) ...cheating, envious. Just like a man who is killing another man. So he is envious to himself as well as the man whom he is killing. Both. I am killing somebody, he is being killed. I am envious. And I forget that I'll be killed. Then I am envious to me also.

Brahmānanda: Yeah. Even one's own self-interest he is not taking care of.

Prabhupāda: This is the position. Even it is forbidden... In the Christian religion it is forbidden: "Thou shall not kill." And they are killing. That means envious of the animal, and he is envious of himself also. They are now being killed in the womb of the mother. Why the child is now being killed within the womb of the mother? Hm?

Akṣayānanda: Because they are envious. They are envious.

Prabhupāda: So Upendra has not come?

Brahmānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Brahmānanda: He said he had to take a laxative last night.

Prabhupāda: Some way or other, he avoids. Eh? (break) ...therefore forbidden to make one steady in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if one does not follow this thing, then his mind, he cannot control. It is not possible. Unless one can control the mind and the senses, he cannot be steady. That is māyā's trick, to become guided by the mind. That is māyā's trick. (break)

Trivikrama: ...sixteen rounds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So let him go to hell. What can be done? (break) So his friend said, "Oh, you are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father is drinking." "Oh, he will go to hell." "My mother is also drinking." "Oh, she will go." Then brother, sister... "Then where is hell? We are going all there. If we can live together, where is hell? Let us go to hell. Doesn't matter." So your argument is that. "Because everyone is being cheated, then where is fault? I have been cheated. That's all. It is not hell. It is heaven." (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Akṣayānanda: It's like saying everything is one.

Prabhupāda: No. That cannot be. You are one cheated and he is one cheater. How they can be one? (laughter)

Dhanaïjaya: (break) ...isn't self-sufficiency...

Prabhupāda: Self-suff... There is no self-sufficiency. Self-insufficiency. Always remember that. Unless you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no self-sufficiency. All self-insufficiency. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) So you give me a description, what he is doing. (break) ...thinking, "I am independent," but he is kicked by his mind every moment. This is his independence--"Go there. Come here. Do this. Do that." The mind is dictating, and he is thinking, "I am independent." This is the position of conditioned soul. Therefore he is called conditioned. He is conditioned by the mind, and he is thinking "independent." Mūòha. Therefore mūòha. Tri-guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ mohitaḥ. He is illusioned by the three modes of material nature, and he does not know Kṛṣṇa, and he is thinking "independent."

Trivikrama: The mind is cheating us.

Prabhupāda: Certainly he'll cheat. If you cannot control, it will cheat. Mind is the friend, and mind is the enemy. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, then mind is friend. And if you do not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, mind is enemy. māyā is also. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then she is Rādhārāṇī. And if he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, she is Durga.

Dhanaïjaya: So all these cheaters are māyā's agents.

Prabhupāda: No, no, they are agent of Kṛṣṇa. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. But because you want to cheat Kṛṣṇa, therefore they are cheating you. They are not your servant. Mama māyā: "My servant." Just like the police. Police is punishing you not on their own account. Because you are disobedient, you must be punished. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī.

Brahmānanda: The moment we stop cheating Kṛṣṇa, then we can...

Prabhupāda: Then, immediately, he becomes friend. This is the way, going on. The whole arrangement is like that. So long we shall not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we have to suffer so many ways, different species of life, different condition, different planets. This is going on. (break) ...indirectly forcing that "You be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise you'll be punished." Why police is so unkind? Because the indirect way is that "You become lawful; otherwise you'll continue to be suffering by us." So intelligent person thinks of it, and he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. And those who are rascals, fools, bewildered, they think, "We shall adjust it by manufacturing every year new type of motorcars." Although there is accident... The increase of motorcar means increasing the death rate of public. Huh? And still they'll do that. It is becoming problem in cities in Europe and America. All roads and streets are always congested. They cannot drive even at ten miles speed. Still, they are increasing. Still, they are increasing motorcar.

Brahmānanda: They are passing laws now that you're not allowed to drive your car in the center of the cities.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They are keeping two miles away the car and coming to the office.

 

Morning Walk                                          September 9, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                      407265

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Do you know this? (break) ...go somewhere, better go, at least four men; and when you read some knowledge, at least two men; but when you eat, one man. Don't bring four men and two men. Then he will be hungry; you will be hungry. (laughter) So for advancement of knowledge, two men at least required, discussion--not that I am reading and sleeping also.

                                                                                                                                                                        407283

Prabhupāda: ...bharaṇena vā. Nidrāya hṛiyate naktaṁ vyāvayena ca vā vayaḥ. Vayaḥ means age. They are wasting their, this human form of life, duration of life, at night either by sleeping or by sex. Nidrāya hṛiyate naktraṁ vyāvayena ca vā vayaḥ. And in daytime... Divā cārthehaya rājan... In daytime--"Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" And when he gets money, how to spend it for kuṭumbha, not for Kṛṣṇa. They get money sufficiently, and as soon as he is asked to spare some money for Kṛṣṇa, "No, the law is that I should give money to my sons. The law is." Even our devotees are saying like that. "The law is that I must give to my son, not to Kṛṣṇa."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our devotees are saying that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) "You just see my face, beautiful face. And whatever I had, that I have left with my sons and wife." Mostly they come...

Indian man (2): And at the same time, they all are earning.

Prabhupāda: No, that is for their sons.

Indian man (2): They are earning themselves, their son, sufficiently.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...in the Back to Godhead that those who have come to Vṛndāvana for sense gratification, their next birth is monkey and dog in Vṛndāvana; then, next birth, liberated. So they became angry. Vṛndāvana is not for sense gratification. Narottama dāsa Öhākura therefore says,

rūpa raghunātha pade haibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhabo se yugala pīriti

The rasa-līlā of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, a person like Narottama dāsa Öhākura says, "I could not understand it because I have not yet studied the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī and Raghunātha Gosvāmī, six Gosvāmīs. How can I understand?" So these people, they think by seeing rasa-līlā by professional men they will understand the līlā of Kṛṣṇa. Rūpa-Raghunātha instruction not cared for. But without going through the literature, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, nobody can understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

rūpa raghunātha pade haibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhabo se yugala pīriti

(Hindi) ...Goddess Kali.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? You mention in your book that recently they have begun some demigod worship in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not recently. Since very long time. These gosvāmīs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Caste gosvāmīs. But originally this was not the fact.

Prabhupāda: Originally there was Rūpa Gosvāmī. Now they are imitating. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         September 13, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     407298

Prabhupāda: This is called hog life, how to maintain this body. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Kāmān means necessities of life. Very, with great difficulty... (break) ...kāmān. Life can be easily maintained by agriculture and cow protection. No. They will start big, big mills, factories, motor tires, cars, instruments. Kaṣṭan kāmān. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is called ugra-karma, fierce... (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Fierceful activities.

Vraja-vasi: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Unnecessarily creating problems. (break) ...one after another, one after another. Formerly paper was used only for Vedic knowledge. Now the paper used for so many useless newspaper, volumes and volumes and jasusi(?), unnecessarily creating agitation of the mind. And if you explain these things they will say, "This is all primitive ideas." Modern ideas means one must work very hard day and night to get a little piece of chapati. Hm? What is the answer.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If we don't work hard they say, "You are a burden on society.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If a person doesn't work hard day and night they say, "You are just living on society."

Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. The day and night is that pig is working. That I am explaining. Then what is the difference between the pig and me if I am also working hard like that pig? Huh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difference.

Prabhupāda: Then why you say you are advanced civilization? That is forbidden. Kaṣṭan kāmān na arhati. It is not desirable; it is not good. You are given this body different from this pig because you will live peacefully and happily. Why should you accept kaṣṭan kāman, so hardship? Actually they do not want to work hard. Otherwise why the proprietor, the capitalist, they leave the factory and go to a solitary place? Why does he go?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't find any happiness even in the hard work.

Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?

 

There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇòāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, ...simply śūdras and caṇòālas mostly caṇòālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society.

 

So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it.

 

You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful.

 

Brahmānanda: But we have to work very hard; otherwise we won't get money for buying food.

Prabhupāda: No. You work a very slight three months in a year and get all food. Food is there; milk is there; land is there. You have to work.

 

Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. (break) ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there.

 

Indian man (3): But our country depends upon sugar.

Prabhupāda: No, that is mistake. Your country, you can produce your own food. That's all. Why you should depend? You produce food grains. You produce milk. Then your all necessities is supplied. Why should you produce unnecessarily?

 

But you do not know how to be happy.

 

Formerly people were going in bullock cart or horse carriage from one village to another. "That was primitive. Now we can go hundred miles away from home for earning money and taking risk to die at any moment. That is progress." Is it not?

 

…Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism.

 

But we can make them all happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if they follow our instruction, even in this material world. Pūrṇaṁ sukhāyate. Full happiness we can give them if they follow our principle.

 

For ordinary public--four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... To chant and dance and take prasādam--no one will disagree.

                                                                                        The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice.

But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.

So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows… And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance. And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have... Go on chanting, offering prasādam. You have got your food grains. Don't be dependent on anyone else. Become self-independent. And don't be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life. Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, read book. Then you'll grow strong. Is there any difficulty?

 

... You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely…Purity is required. That will attract. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that "These people are very happy; they have no anxiety," then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? …Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn't matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization…

Guest (3) (Indian man): Car is a necessity, Swamijī, don't you think so? Car is a necessity.

Prabhupāda: Not necessary. What is the use of car? If you locate yourself to get everything, your necessity, then where is the use of car?

 

So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea.

 

So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."

 

Yes. I have already suggested that you take land and be an ideal community…But one thing you must be assured, that if you can introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, everyone will be happy. Be rest assured. That's a fact…Everyone will be happy. Men and animal, everyone will be happy. Even the trees and plants, they will be happy.

 

…Śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtana is so powerful that it will conquer. It will be victorious.

 

We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted.

 

Everyone was religious and satisfied by hearing-what we are just introducing-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, Puranas, and live simple life, keeping cows, village life as it is exhibited by Krsna, Vrndavana.  

 

But you can introduce the original Vedic culture in this Europe and America.  You have understood.  You can do it.  By this material civilization they will never be happy, and it is risky.

 

Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization.

 

You work and grow your food. And because it is God's property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production--no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God's land.

Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace.

 

Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean?…So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

 

No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ...  …You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra…And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing.

 

This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide…They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa.

 

Money is not required. You require things…Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all…So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. …Everyone is simply simple, honest.

 

Government's only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax: "Whatever I produce, take one fourth." Finish. All taxes. If I don't produce, there is no tax. That's all. That is the business between the government and the public. That's all.

So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required…As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.

 

Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government.

 

The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."

 

It is the influence of the land. Just like Vṛndāvana. Whatever you may be, you stay here, you become spiritualized. Simply you stay there.

 

This rascal civilization, they could not take the Western civilization, and they lost their own civilization. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture.

 

...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?

 

Without sex life one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex life, then you will be materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex life, and here in the Western countries, how to increase sex life.

 

Ah, rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Because they have taken the shelter of prakṛti, material nature, bewildered and captivated, they do not know what is the aim of life--moghāśā, "all baffled."

 

You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not.

 

Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food.

 

What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: You grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tire and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Kṛṣṇa never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." …No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor.

 

Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra."… Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right… Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām.

 

...He used to collect all these things for guru's cooking…These things are wasted. It can be utilized. The children, they'll gladly collect it. It will be like their sports. All the children will come and collect. Just see. Their energy is utilized, the nature's gift is utilized, and there is no expenditure.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice arrangment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization.

 

In warmer climate you can live inexpensively, and freely. In winter climate, there is no freedom, neither it is inexpensive. Very expensive.

 

The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well-being of the citizens.

 

So, Brahmānanda, explain our scheme.

 

You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure…Grow food first of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted.

 

So similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage and have garden. You'll live very peacefully…Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachori, halavā with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. …What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization.

First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they'll join.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make your life successful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME SIXTEEN

Morning Walk                                          September 15, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                    407591

Dhṛṣṭaketu: ...that one is making progress by how he feels, or should he just simply execute the order of the spiritual master and not worry about how he feels? How should... In other words...

Prabhupāda: If he is making progress, he must feel. If he is not making progress, then he will not feel.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: And that feeling is a willingness to serve Kṛṣṇa or...

Prabhupāda: No, that is always. Whether he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa... That is devotion. So if he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā means anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. This is the result. If his anartha is not decreasing, or becoming zero, then he is not making bhajana. He is doing something else.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: And if he's not feeling increased ecstasy, then he should try to change his position or try to perform...

Prabhupāda: No. There is no change of position. Position is the same.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: Because once this question was asked that... In class a devotee asked that "I'm losing my taste for serving the Deity, and I don't know what to do," and so they asked this question. So...

Prabhupāda: He can chant. There is no question of "I am losing interest." If he is actually following the rules and regulations, there is no question of losing interest.

Hari-śauri: There is never any decrease.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: You mean if one simply follows everything that is outlined in the temple schedule and...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be strictly followed.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: Then his feeling will gradually develop. He'll gradually develop love then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā. If his anartha is decreased, then he becomes firmly fixed up. There is no question of decreasing. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                          September 19, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     407804

Prabhupāda: So similarly, the happiness which is destined to you, that will also happen, even though you do not want it. (break) ...rupees. Now I have got forty crores. Who has given me?

Indian man: Yes. Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given me. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He says, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemam: "One who is engaged in My service, all that he wants, I supply." He says. See practically. Whatever we wanted, it is coming. It is coming not for my credit or another, anyone credit. It is all Kṛṣṇa's credit. He is giving. As soon as He sees that "They are working for Me," He'll supply everything, whatever you need. Simply we must be sincere and spend it very cautiously, not squandering the money. Then He will give us everything. There is no need of surma(?)-making. I say it is nonsense that by surma-making I will be happy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Only for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness we should work. Then everything will come, whatever we want. That is called anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ, without desiring for anything else. (break) "...in a rented house, there was no trouble. And as soon as this Devidatta gave us this marble palace, then there was competition who will occupy which room. In this way dissension began. So I am desiring that this dissension will increase and there will be fire. So to save this fire, I wish to get out all the marbles from this house and sell it and publish some books. That will remain." He said to me. Then I understood that he is giving more stress on books. "Sell the marbles and publish book instead of creating dissension amongst ourself." So, strictly, anyone occupies this guest room, he must pay. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad                                                   407816

Prabhupāda: Society has lost this saṁskāra process; therefore they remain in the animal platform. Janman jāyate śūdra saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. When a person is born even in human society, he remains a śūdra. Śūdra means almost like animal. Now he has to be reformed. That is called saṁskāra. Then twice-born. The first-class twice-born is brāhmaṇa. Second-class twice-born is kṣatriya. And third-class twice-born is the vaiśya. And remaining, who cannot be reformed, they remain śūdra. But there is cooperation between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and the society makes progress simultaneously for everyone. That is human society. At the present moment mostly all of them remain śūdras or less..., caṇòālas. So how there can be any peace? It is not possible. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇòāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas,

.......simply śūdras and caṇòālas mostly caṇòālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you.

                                                                                                                                                                        407829

Prabhupāda: Now these rascal Westerners, there the women claiming equal rights. Change that the man will give birth to a child and not the woman.

Kartikeya: Equal right.

Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare--"Give me some money"--or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries.

Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers."

Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization?

Brahmānanda: Each year there are over one million abortions.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Brahmānanda: In America there are over one million abortions.

Prabhupāda: And they are advanced. They are proud of their being advanced. And they will not suffer? So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You see? This is nīm tree. There is many nīm trees. If they kindly accept and follow this movement they will be happy. Otherwise they are doomed. Let them suffer. What can I do? Thorough overhauling.

Kartikeya: Small pond they have made, fill up with water.

Brahmānanda: Woman carrying a water jug.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What the women answer about this pregnancy, that the man enjoys her and he goes away?

Brahmānanda: They resent it.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you accept? Why do you agree?

Brahmānanda: Well, more and more now the women are not having sex with men anymore. They're having sex with other women.

Prabhupāda: Then the population will stop? Will the population stop anymore? Then where is the proof? Just see how foolishness.

Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small...

Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it.

 

Morning Walk                                        September 27, 1975, Ahmedabad                                                    408215

Prabhupāda: Let us walk little more. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Oh, yes, it is very wet. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will come out very good. But the rascals will not do that. That is the difficulty. They will make plan. (aside:) Which way? Kṛṣṇa's plan they will not take. That is the difficulty.

Kartikeya: Is it because the leaders are not following? Therefore the population is not following?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kartikeya: The wrong example is given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ. The leaders are rascals, therefore they are rascals. The father is rascal; the son is rascal. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "If you are a rascal, don't become a father." Pit na sa syāt, na mocayed ya samupeta-mṛtyum. "If you are a rascal, don't become a mother." Stop population. They have therefore invented, "Yes, we shall become 'bachelor father,' 'bachelor daddy,' " not actual father but "bachelor father." Here woman at least think nowadays that she must have a husband. In Western countries they don't think. "No, there is no need of husband." Am I right?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They don't think there is need of husband. Eh? But they feel. That I know. I have seen one girl. She saw another friend, "Oh, she has got a husband," whispering. So I can understand that everyone aspires after husband, but there is no hope. Hopelessness. This is the position. Every woman wants a good husband, good home, good children, little ornaments, nice food. That is the ambition of every woman, but they are hopeless. Although they are well qualified, European, American girls, they are hopeless, not to get any husband, not to get any home. This is their position. I have studied thoroughly. Is it not?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hopelessness. When we see in our association all these girls. They are so nicely, well qualified. Whatever they are taught, they immediately pick up.

Kartikeya: In America they were asking my wife how Indian women are able to keep such devotion for their husbands. So they are actually very much interested and envious of this situation in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. That is... They want to be a faithful wife, but there is no husband. Where to become faithful?

Harikeśa: So then they want to become liberated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Being hopeless repeatedly, now they want liberation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

 

Morning Walk                                            October 2, 1975, Mauritius                                                          408657

Prabhupāda: That is another ignorance. Everyone is dying. He is thinking, "I will not die." This is ignorance. He is running so fast unnecessarily.

Cyavana: He is trying to enjoy that machine.

Prabhupāda: Enjoy means another machine will strike, and his enjoyment will stop. There is ship, going fast. Where he will go fast?

Brahmānanda: Around the island.

Prabhupāda: Just like the dog. He goes fast here and there. "Gow! Gow!" (laughter) It is like that. He is going fast. Doggish mentality. That's all, all dogs and cats, no human being. This civilization means they are creating only dogs and cats, animals, go-kharaḥ, cows and asses. They are... We don't take them as human being. All animals.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they don't acknowledge that they're suffering?

Prabhupāda: So many things. So many things. The first ignorance is that accepting this body as self. Everyone.

Cyavana: The capitalists are so anxious for money that they exploit this tendency of the living entity to enjoy by tempting him. Every year they create some new way to entice him.

Prabhupāda: And taxation. And the taxation is divided among them. The tax is meant for public welfare. Instead of public welfare, they divide it amongst themselves and enjoy wine, women, motorcar and flesh. That's all. This is going on. All this income tax--plundering process. This income tax means a plan how to take away everything from the actually earning members of the society. That is income tax. And that is divided amongst administrators. That's all.

Cyavana: Here it is very prominent. The workers in the fields, they are barely making enough to live from day to day. But the planters who live in France, they are taking millions of rupees and living very comfortably.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Communism is coming. Go this way?

Cyavana: Is it this way? We can go this way. This way. Or better this way. Now he's coming the other way.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar--the same thing--you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. (break) The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.

                                                                                                                                                                            

 

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Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they may say, "That is not practical, because we will starve to death with such knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Then... Then you are useless. Because you cannot go to the ultimate point of education, therefore your education is useless.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then they will ask, "You will come and bring me food?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you food. Food is there. You are not creating food. It is... From the earth it is grown.

Brahmānanda: But we have to work very hard; otherwise we won't get money for buying food.

Prabhupāda: No. You work a very slight three months in a year and get all food. Food is there; milk is there; land is there. You have to work.

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Prabhupāda: There was no... We don't require all these things because we know others are victims. They pay for it. And they work hard for the money and pay to work. That's all. Our men never touch this Coca-cola and cigarette, but others, they are mad after it.

Brahmānanda: They say they have to work so hard to get food, but actually they are working hard for this.

Prabhupāda: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. (break) ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.)

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Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were speaking of anarthas and one of the lesser age boys was wondering... He's asking why we shouldn't take tea.

Prabhupāda: Because intoxication. You become addicted. You are asking because you cannot give up tea. Therefore you are asking. Therefore it should be given up. You become servant of tea. Otherwise there is no question of asking. His asking means you want to drink. That means he has become servant of tea. Our original position--we are servant of God. So we are going to be servant of God. So if we remain servant of this material world, we cannot become servant of God. (break) ...unnecessary are advertised and people become victimized.

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...and so much useless labor for growing tea, that will be stopped. You can grow food. (break) You drink tea, you'll require sugar. Then unnecessarily producing so much sugarcane. And the by-product of sugarcane, molasses, you'll have to utilize. Then produce wine, liquor. One after another.

Indian man (3): But our country depends upon sugar.

Prabhupāda: No, that is mistake. Your country, you can produce your own food. That's all. Why you should depend? You produce food grains. You produce milk. Then your all necessities is supplied. Why should you produce unnecessarily?

Brahmānanda: Here they use powdered milk because they have no cows.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part?

Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?)

Prabhupāda: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows.

Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year.

Prabhupāda: But you do not know how to be happy.

Indian man (1): Even this land, here they are producing sugarcane. So that is strong for wheat. They can grow plenty of wheat.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything can be grown.

Cyavana: If sugarcane will grow, anything will grow. It's very fertile.

Indian man (1): Because they don't want to do anything, they simply plant the sugarcane and then they want rest for few months, simply getting money and taking and drinking.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): No work. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...getting rice, wheat from outside, they can charge any price because the price of grain is increasing.

Indian man (1): Any time, they can stop it.

Prabhupāda: You can stop it. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             October 3, 1975, Mauritius                                                         408872

Prabhupāda: ...that I shall be happy in this material world, he'll not be able to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Cyavana: The slightest tinge of a material desire will force him to take another body. Is that it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa will give him full advantage of enjoying this material world. Unless he is disgusted, he cannot. He'll not become disgusted. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up this." Personally, he is not going to be disgusted. māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally asks him, "Give up this business." Sarva-dharmān parityajya. But we are thinking, "Eh! Why this man asking like this? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. I shall give up my business, I shall give up my family, I shall give up my country and simply surrender to Him? Oh, it is too much. Sophisticated." What is called? "Sophistry." What is sophistry?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sophistry?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half wise, half foolish.

Brahmānanda: Sophistry means some...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ... philosophy that is not sound. Superficial.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is the remark of Dr. Rādhākrishnan, when Kṛṣṇa said like that. That means "He... Too much," because he thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is..., may be a very big man, but He's a man. Why He is asking like that?" (break) ...first business is to give him always miseries so that he may be disgusted. But he is so foolish, he is not becoming disgusted. Everyone knows this is very troublesome world, but nobody is disgusted.

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And what about your death? (aside:) Stop. The chicken is also dying; you are also dying. What is your improvement? That they cannot say. Real problem they cannot solve. Simply a little high standard of living, and they think this is advancement. And the Western civilization is influencing all other parts of the world in that way--"Improve the standard of living." There is no improvement, but it is māyā; they are thinking, "This is improvement."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Progress.

Prabhupāda: Progress, yes. The progress is that they have got motorcar, and they have progressed how to die quickly. This is the progress. At any moment he can die. As soon as he on the car, 70 miles speed, that means taking the risk of dying at any moment. This is the progress. Formerly people were going in bullock cart or horse carriage from one village to another. "That was primitive. Now we can go hundred miles away from home for earning money and taking risk to die at any moment. That is progress." Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism.

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Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a verse in the Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda. Yenātmā suprasīdati: "By rendering devotional service to the transcendental Lord, one becomes completely satisfied." So what happens? These people in material life, they come to the temples and they chant a little bit. But they find that the standard of pure devotional service is so high that they're not able to grasp it. They don't feel the complete satisfaction. They're still attached to the material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is compared with the jaundice disease. Jaundice disease, for jaundice, sugarcane is the medicine. But they taste sugarcane as bitter. Sugarcane... One who is suffering in jaundice will taste sugarcane as bitter. That is the test. So that is the medicine. So he has to take the sugarcane. And by taking, when he is cured he will find, "Oh, it is very sweet."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then he has to recognize there is some problem living in this material world.

Prabhupāda: No. He does not find any happiness on account of his too much materialistic mind.

Brahmānanda: That is the disease.

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. So it has to be cured by this bhakti-yoga. So in the bhakti-yoga, in the beginning, it will taste bitter. Therefore they do not come. But if they take to bhakti-yoga, then the material disease will be cured and they will find it is very sweet.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the more people try to enjoy materially, they become more and more unhappy.

Prabhupāda: We are in the material world means everyone is diseased. (break) māyayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ, duṣkṛtinaḥ. This is described. This is the material disease. I explained how they are committing sinful life: slaughterhouse, this liquor house and so many things, simply sinful. And they do not know they are going to suffer again in another body. He's going to be slaughtered next life. "Life for life." You are taking life, so many lives; you have to give so many times life. Take birth and become killed. Take birth and become killed." There is no knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if one falls down into lower species of life like plants or animals, how then do they come again to the human form of life?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's way. Give them again chance to develop. From trees they become flies. That is the beginning of movement. Then from flies to birds, birds to beast, and beast to animal, er, human being. This is great chastisement. You cannot move even. Suffer torrents of rain, cyclone, scorching heat, pinching cold. Stand up for hundreds and thousands of years. Then, when the punishment is finished, then he becomes moving. If there is scorching heat he can move to some shelter. But he cannot move. They do not study all this science, why there are so many varieties of life, of different grades. Wherefrom they are coming?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity, then, in the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity inside the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupāda: Not advanced consciousness, but he is conscious. He feels. He feels.

Harikeśa: It shocked a lot of people when they made the test of bringing a scissor to a plant, and they put some electrodes on it and they found that the plant was reacting with fear.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That machine has been discovered by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. He discovered this wireless telegram, radio. But Marconi took from him, and British government helped him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The British again.

Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nations, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would

suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From where?

Prabhupāda: Sheffield.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, England.

Prabhupāda: England. So everything Indian required, they would supply, and they would govern and they would exploit. Therefore they became so rich--simply by exploiting India. And Indian soldiers, they expanded empire--Africa, Burma. That's all, all Indian exploitation, Indian men, money, and exploitation. As soon as they lost India, they lost whole empire.

Cyavana;: Now they are also suffering.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That... That must be. They will be suffering more and more. They will be beggars. They have done so much sinful activities for expanding their empire. Now they will have to become beggars. And within two hundred years, everything finished. They started their exploitation from seventeenth, eighteenth century. And in the twentieth century, everything finished. The French people and the English people... This is also one of the examples. Both the nations came here to exploit. That was the competition in... The French people and the English people, they would go for colonization, fight, and establi... America was also that, Canada, everywhere. But because they were their own men, they were given dominion status. Almost free.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Greedy. Very greedy.

Brahmānanda: At one time all of Africa was controlled by the European nations. Completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mainly these French and...

Brahmānanda: French, British, Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In South Africa, the British also tried to take over South Africa. There was a war called the Boer War.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So during World War I and World War II many of the South Africans, they actually sided with the Germans because they were against the English so much.

Prabhupāda: African means black Africans. No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. South Africans, they were Europeans. The British started the first concentration camp. They took these "Afrikaners" as they call them, Europeans. They put them on an island called St. Helena. That was actually the first concentration camp, by the British.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted--"This material life is not very peaceful." They are not disgusted.

Brahmānanda: Now they are thinking, "We'll be independent..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... They are trying to be independent. And India... Just like India has got independent, and now the position is "emergency." They do not think in this way, that "Indepedence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature." That they do not think. They are thinking... The same example as I gave, that "This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful," like that. They have no sense that so-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mūòha nābhijānāti.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains, vāsudeva sarvam iti, that He is everything and that He is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this verse, mūòho 'ya nābhijānāti, that the mūòhas, they can't perceive Kṛṣṇa. So actually it's simply that we're covered, isn't it? But Kṛṣṇa is always there.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always there, but yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ. He does not know Kṛṣṇa on account of being covered by the curtain of yogamāyā. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ. But we can make them all happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if they follow our instruction, even in this material world. Pūrṇaṁ sukhāyate. Full happiness we can give them if they follow our principle.

Cyavana: They have so many doubts.

Prabhupāda: What is the doubt? Doubt means they cannot drink, they cannot continue slaughterhouse, they cannot continue brothels. That's all. This is their doubt, that "How these things will be maintained? This is our life." That is doubt, and that is the difficulty. As soon as we say, "No this," oh, they are in danger. Even Marquis of Zetland, "Oh, it is impossible to give up. This is our life." There is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. They cannot think of, especially the Westerners, that without these things one can live. So many, our disciples, left. Rāyarāma left: "Oh, Swamiji is denying the preliminary necessities of life." This is the preliminary necessities of life: illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. They cannot think that a man can live without these things. Therefore people are wonderful, that "How he is turning these Europeans, Americans to this standard?" That is their wonder. Nobody can think of, that these things can be given up and one can avoid it. It is dream. Your government, American government, is also surprised that "We have spent so much money for stopping this LSD, and this man by saying his disciples, they are giving up." Judah has also mentioned that. That is their surprise--"How these things can be given up? It is impossible."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said in Geneva that no one has died by giving up smoking.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that is the fact. You have given up these four bad things, and what is your wrong, harm? Rather, you have become bright-faced. But they will not give it up. They think, "It is impossible."

Brahmānanda: They say we have just undergone some religious conversion and become fanatical, and therefore we have given up.

Prabhupāda: No, why don't you become fanatical? (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although it says in the Bible even that one should praise the Lord's name with cymbals and drums...

Prabhupāda: They have no concern with Bible and God and everything. They are simply after sense gratification. What is the use of quoting about Bible? They don't care for Bible. The Europeans, Americans, they have rejected, thrown away, kicked out Bible because (it is) unscientific. Actually they do not accept. Although they call themselves Christian, they do not accept anything of Bible. That is... Bible is finished. There is no meaning of Bible. Simply for their sectarian prestige, they say "Bible." But actually they have nothing to do with Bible. What do you think?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true.

Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.

Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We don't discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible?

Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible."

Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear." Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yathā mat tathā path.

Prabhupāda: Yathā mat tathā path. This is going on. Everyone will say something, and it is all right. However nonsense it may be, it is all right. Even Gandhi followed that philosophy. Therefore he invented one, another philosophy, nonviolence, which is impossible. When Hindus approached him, that "You have got so much influence over the Mohammedans, so why not stop cow killing?" he said, "It is their religious principle. How can I interfere?" Just see.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa orders in Bhagavad-gītā, go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: And he is considered to be a great scholar in Bhagavad-gītā, and when cow protection was requested, he said that "How can I do it? It is their religious principle." And he is a great big scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. All nonsense, going on. Whole world is full of nonsense, mūòhas, beginning from Gandhi to any rascal, all of them, rascals. Perhaps it is the first time we are detecting, "Here are all rascals." It is first time. Then we are enemy of everyone. We call everyone rascal--Gandhi rascal, Vivekananda rascal, Aurobindo rascal. So actually they are, but people are thinking, "These people say all big, big men rascals? Therefore they are rascals."

Cyavana: The average man doesn't have the intelligence to discriminate between an intelligent man and a fool. He will listen to anyone.

Prabhupāda: No, we have got this from the standard test tube, Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is duṣkṛtina, mūòha. That's all. We have no difficulty. Just like that urine test? We have got... One who has got that testing paper, red, yellow and so on, so on... So we have got this testing paper, Bhagavad-gītā.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya's weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's weapons were His associates.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sāìgopāngāstra-pārṣadam. Therefore Narottama dāsa Öhākura said, gaurāìgera saìgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne: "All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever liberated." Nitya-siddha kori māne. "Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever liberated--he also becomes liberated, simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitaya Mahāprabhu who is helping Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated." Se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś. Gaurāìgera saìgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne, se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś.

Cyavana: This is the way to go up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...this is a fact, that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody knows anything--all mūòhas. Any association, any religion--all mūòhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that "We are only first class" without any knowledge... You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say "religious fanatics." Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit for some time here, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) (Devotees have been teasing Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa in background regarding his suggestion) He said, "Don't bring milk when water is required." I was just asking, you know.

Harikeśa: Don't bring milk when water is required. You have given the example.

Prabhupāda: Don't bring milk?

Devotees: When water is required.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Cyavana: But he was thinking that it would be very nice to sit there with Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no. No, I wasn't. I was thinking of Prabhupāda's satisfaction. You're thinking what I'm thinking...

Prabhupāda: You are right. He was right. That is service. Before wanting, that is... That is all right. "Now let the master refuse it." But service is: before he asks, the thing should be offered. That is service. After asking, offering something, that is second-class service. First-class service, before he wants, "Here is the thing, ready." That is first-class service. Now it is his liking. He may not like that. He may ask something else. But the service must be offered. And your example, milk and water, is not applicable here. I did not ask him either milk or water. (laughter) So your example is futile.

Cyavana: Perfect.

Prabhupāda: So don't be discouraged.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. I'll never leave your lotus feet. They asked you about other movements yesterday at the press conference...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...this movement and that movement. You said, "This is Kṛṣṇa's movement." So this should be our line of argument, because especially amongst the Indian community, when they question us about this swami and that swami...

Prabhupāda: They replied that in everything there is light. And yes, the light of, what is called, glowworm and the light of sun is not the same. Everything is light; that doesn't... We haven't got to accept so-called lights. Even there is light, when there is sunlight, why you should aspire after glow of light? (People chanting in background) Who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Cyavana: Everyone is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma Hare Rāma. (laughter)

Devotee (2): So all those sinful activities of these people have been eradicted now by saying Hare Rāma?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Immediately. That is the special advantage of this age. Kirtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saìgaḥ. Immediately becomes free, mukta-saìga. Without becoming mukta-saìga, they cannot chant even. Why others are not chanting, they are chanting?

Devotee (2): But the same... That means they will make more sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: If he does, that is another thing. Otherwise, for the time being, he is freed from all the reaction of sinful, immediately. Sadyaḥ savanāya kalpate. Sadya, immediately. Immediately he becomes brāhmaṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is pious activity on the material platform?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is transcendental, above pious activity. By accumulation of pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental position. Kṛta-puṇya-puïjāḥ. Puṇya means pious activities. After doing for many, many years simply pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental platform. So pious activities cannot be compared with transcendental activities. But it may help in the long run. Therefore transcendental activities does not depend on pious activity. It is not dependent. Then it will take long, long years. But automatically he becomes pious, achieves the result of pious activities.

Cyavana: (break) ...the standard of morality, Arjuna's activity of killing was immoral.

Prabhupāda: Morality, immorality, this is all creation of mind. Real purpose of life, to serve the order of Kṛṣṇa, that is real morality.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that we must all be kṛpa-siddhi, because by your mercy you have lifted us out of hellish conditions of life.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You have accepted Kṛṣṇa's mercy. This is the... (break) This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Kṛṣṇa. Then they could unite the whole world.

Brahmānanda: They had very good managing talent.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But the whole thing was planned for their own sense gratification.

Brahmānanda: Exploitation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If we ever had any kind of power like that and tried to do something like that, they would accuse that this is like the Crusades.

Prabhupāda: Now, Crusades, even... If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even by force?

Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.

Harikeśa: Should we do that now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Then you'll kill me.

Harikeśa: You would not go to school either.

Prabhupāda: I don't like... Yes.

Harikeśa: You were telling us last year, you wanted to play mṛdaìga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The bus is coming.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...disagreement between my father and mother. My father would give me all independence, and mother was going that "You are spoiling the child by giving too much independence."

Harikeśa: Just see.

Prahupada: That is going on. Just like mother Yaśodā. She would chastise Kṛṣṇa. But you will never find Nanda Mahārāja is ever chastising. Rather, when Kṛṣṇa was chastised, Nanda Mahārāja would come back and take Him on the lap: "All right, I shall punish Your mother," and call him (her?), chastise. And then Kṛṣṇa will stop His mouth: "No, no. Don't do this." It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. (break) Such a big planet, sun, six months rotating on the northern side of the equator, six months on the southern side. It is never changed. Why?

Brahmānanda: It's an accident. (laughs)

Cyavana: The sun doesn't change?

Prabhupāda: No, the uttarāyana. Now it is passing on the northern...

Brahmānanda: Now it's on the southern?

Prabhupāda: Southern side, dakṣiṇāyana, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists say that the earth is actually tilting back and forth like this, that the sun is not...

Prabhupāda: Why it is tilting, rascal? Stop it.

Cyavana: No. Every time is perfect.

Prabhupāda: That is my question. That is answered in Brahma... Yasyājïayā, by the order of Govinda it is being done.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The seasons are changing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasyājïayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. The orbit fixed up to the sun by the order of Govinda, that is being followed by him.

Devotee (2): Does the heat of the sun increase or decrease through the ages?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they are thinking He is just a historical figure.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they're rascals. Why do you say like that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Avajānanti māṁ mūòhāḥ.

Brahmānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

 

 

Morning Walk                                              October 4, 1975, Mauritius                                                        409058

Prabhupāda: ...own Christian priests, they asked me that "Why Christianity is dwindling? What we have done?" So I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughter)

Cyavana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "You have violated from the very beginning the orders of Christ, 'Thou shall not kill,' and you are killing, only killing. So what you have not done?"

Devotee 1: They say that man has to dominate over the animals. They should...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you should kill and eat them. Very good reasoning. "The father should dominate over children; therefore the children should be killed and eaten up." So rascals, and they are professing religious leaders.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if every moment we are killing in breathing and walking and doing so many things, and then it says, "Thou shalt not kill," so then hasn't God given us an instruction which is impossible?

Prabhupāda: No. Conscientiously you should not. But unconsciously, if you do, that is excused. (break) ...na punar baddhyate(?). Āhlādinī-śakti, it is pleasure potency. So pleasure potency is not painful to Kṛṣṇa. But it is painful. It is painful to us, conditioned souls. This Golden Moon (name of a bar?), everyone comes there for pleasure, but he is becoming implicated in sinful activities. Therefore it is not pleasure. It will give him pain, so many aftereffects. Sex life, even it is not illicit, still, it is painful, aftereffects. You'll have to take care of the children. You have to bear children. That is painful. You have to pay to the hospital for delivery, then education, then doctor's bill--so many painful. So this pleasure, sex pleasure, is followed by so many painful things. Tāpa-karī. The same pleasure potency is there in the living being in little quantity, and as soon as they utilize it, it becomes painful. And the same pleasure potency in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with gopīs, that is not painful. That is pleasing. (break) ...man, if he takes nice foodstuff it is painful. If a diseased man, if he takes...

Cyavana: He becomes more sick.

Prabhupāda: More sick. Therefore this life is meant for tapasya, not to accept--voluntarily reject. Then it is nice. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...ments today are supporting the most outrageous sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The governments today are supporting the most outrageous, sinful activities. So how is it possible to reform the general mass of people?

Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say the government is perfect?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? They must be moved. Government means, nowadays, all rascals. They are elected by rascals and they are rascals. That is the difficulty. Everywhere you go, you will meet only rascals. Manda. The definition is given, manda. Even in our camp there are so many rascals. Just see the report. Even they have come to be reformed, they are rascals. They cannot give up their rascal habits. Therefore it has been generalized, manda: "all bad." But only difference is that in our camp the bads are being reformed; outside there is no reforming. There is hope of their being good, but outside there is no hope. That is the difference. Otherwise everyone is bad. Without any discrimination you can say. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo. Now, how the government will be good? This is also bad. Mahāprabhu's name is Patita-pāvana; He is delivering all bad men. In the Kali-yuga there is no good men at all--all bad. Strong you will have to become to deal with all bad men.

 

Room Conversation                                    October 4, 1975, Mauritius                                                         409198

Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that chemical is missing. I say what is that chemical?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the chemical is not missing.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same chemical is there. Two minutes before death and two minutes after death, the body chemistry has not changed so much.

Prabhupāda: No. What is that missing that it is dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't answer.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fool. You cannot answer.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because it's not a question of chemical. Actually they don't know what life is.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are foolish. Therefore he has to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa: dehino 'smin yathā... "Within this body there is soul."

Brahmānanda: You say there's a soul, but we've never seen a soul. It may be your imagination.

Prabhupāda: You may not see. You have not seen your forefather. That does not mean... This is all bad argument. Why do you believe? Your eyes are so imperfect; still, you say, "I did not see. I want to see." What is the value of your eyes? You see the sun globe--a small disc. But is it so? Then how do you know that it is so big?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: By hearing. That is important, not by seeing. Therefore śruti, Veda, is important, not your eyes.

Harikeśa: When people die, though, there is usually some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that death is caused by the disease...

Prabhupāda: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do not know. You are taking it, cause.

Harikeśa: Well, when you get hit by a car, that's a cause.

Prabhupāda: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that "I had no money. Therefore I become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management, he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause. It is the effect.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhīṣma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows.

Prabhupāda: So when you are going to die, these are the... On account of imminent death, these are the effects.

Harikeśa: But that means that the body breaks down.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: The body breaks down.

Prabhupāda: At a certain period it will break.

Harikeśa: So that is the cause, the body breaking down.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you say heart failure is the cause. No. The body is breaking; therefore heart failure.

Harikeśa: So death means the body breaks.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all your answer... You say the heart failure is the cause. The man is dying. I say that because the man is dying, the heart is failure. So heart failure is not the cause. It is the effect.

                                                                                                                                                                        409253

Prabhupāda: But we are trying to give you happiness only, no unhappiness.

Cyavana: But that's not possible.

Brahmānanda: That's artificial.

Prabhupāda: That you say, but we know.

Cyavana: We cannot see.

Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you will see if you be trained up. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Cyavana: But it is easier for us to remain here and enjoy a little bit and accept a little suffering, accept this body.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "Bhagavad-gītā should be discussed amongst My devotees, not amongst the rascals." It will be waste of time. Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati

bhaktiṁ mayi paraṁ kṛtvā

mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ

"For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Not to the fools and rascals. So first of all, to give them chance, let them come to the temple, take prasādam, hear saìkīrtana, offer obeisances by imitating others. In this way, when they become little devotee, then instruct. Otherwise it will be useless. You'll waste your time by arguing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have given the example that the field has to be plowed before the seed is sown, cultivated.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: The mind has to want that higher taste.

Prabhupāda: Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. So this process... Bring the... Invite them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, give them prasādam. Everyone will take part in this way, not immediately instructing that "You are not this body; you are soul." He will not be able to.

Cyavana: It's too difficult.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public--"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public--four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa--harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam--only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process--chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam--that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam--no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.

                                                                                                                                                                        409377

Cyavana: If Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer here in this material world if we come here, why does He let us go?

Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prisonhouse? He knows that "If I go to the prisonhouse, I will be put into distress."

Cyavana: But the government is not strong enough to force him not to go, not to steal.

Prabhupāda: Why government is not strong enough?

Cyavana: The government doesn't have the power to control everyone. But Kṛṣṇa can...

Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal, the iron chest, but still, you are clever enough that you do.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The independence is there. Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if the spiritual world is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt, full of bliss, then how is it that, somehow or another, we've left that blissful situation and come into this hellish...

Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prisonhouse freedom is there. Why he goes to the prisonhouse? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prisonhouse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are.... By mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play, if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he (she) became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father-mother's affection.

Cyavana: So actually it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He allows us to come here, free ourselves from...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has given you little freedom. He doesn't want to take your freedom.

Harikeśa: You gave two examples in Los Angeles about the master, big master, like president of DuPont walking his dog. The president of DuPont is walking his dog in Central Park. The dog makes him go this way and this way and this way. And you said we are just passing stool and urine in the material world, and Kṛṣṇa is just letting us run here and there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anumantā. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumantā, upadraṣṭā.

Cyavana: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta in one of your purports you gave the example of Paramātmā being compared to when there is a circus in a village the government sends one inspector to watch over the activities. Then, when the circus goes, he is no longer there. Could you explain it? (pause)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, then what does He need us for? If Kṛṣṇa is all blissful, then what... We're so, it seems, incapable of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He is so magnanimous. What does He need us for?

Prabhupāda: He does not ask for Himself. For you. If you come to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy with Him, that is your good. He is self-sufficient. He doesn't require.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, Prabhupāda, when they see your Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Oh, it is too big for me to read." They don't know that the purport.... They've never read.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that bring them, let them chant and dance and take prasādam. That, everyone will hear, agree.

Harikeśa: One who does that, he is preaching? One who arranges for chanting and dancing and taking prasādam, that is as good as preaching?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam, arcanam--anything.

Harikeśa: These festival programs are very important.

Prabhupāda: (pause) You have to spend or waste gallons of blood before you can convert a person to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is so difficult task.

Cyavana: You have to spend?

Prabhupāda: Gallons of blood, waste.

Cyavana: In what way?

Prabhupāda: By talking with him, with the rascal and foolish. You tax your brain and spoil your energy, blood.

Harikeśa: Spend so much food.

Cyavana: So we should do that.

Prabhupāda: Unless you are not a preacher. You should be prepared. Yes. They cuts, sacrifices life, what to speak of wasting blood. Wasting life. This is preacher. Then he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa: "He has done so much for Me."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will give more and more energy.

Prabhupāda: He is going to die for Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is recognized. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ. You become immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Your business is how to become very intimate to Kṛṣṇa. That will be served by preaching.

Cyavana: Would you like to hear this verse?

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupāda: Who? Ya idaṁ para...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to me."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes... I've had one person. He complained, "Why is there no purport for this verse, 'There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear'?"

Prabhupāda: No purport?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have mentioned that there is no purport for this verse.

Prabhupāda: It is already explained. Anyone who is preaching...

Harikeśa: That verse is self-effulgent.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Harikeśa: You are the purport.

 

Morning Walk                                            October 5, 1975, Mauritius                                                          409465

Prabhupāda: The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice.

Devotee: It is all volcanic. The soil here is all from volcano, volcanic soil, very rich.

Prabhupāda: Oh? Volcanic or not volcanic, pūrṇam idam. When it is created by Lord, it is complete. You are originally from India? No.

Indian boy (2): No, Mauritius.

Indian boy (1): Our father from India.

Prabhupāda: All of you? Bihar? No.

Indian boy (1): Bihar, yes, Bihar.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarāsandha also belonged to Bihar. (break) ...a great scientist?

Cyavana: Yes, I studied.

Prabhupāda: How this sand is made?

Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory.

Prabhupāda: No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it shells from the animals?

Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral.

Prabhupāda: It is made from salt. It is called sodium silicate. (laughter)

Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral, and rocks, ground up.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if it's salt, Prabhupāda, our experience of salt is generally that it dissolves in water, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Silicate there is.

Indian boy (2): Salt and silicate.

Prabhupāda: You know something of science?

Indian boy (2): Some.

Prabhupāda: It is melted in fire and glass is made.

Cyavana: It becomes clear.

Prabhupāda: No, that you have to add chemicals.

                                                                                                                                                                        409632

Prabhupāda: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Kṛṣṇa said that there should be four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam, He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Kṛṣṇa does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's in the American Constitution that all men are created equally.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real idea!

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity."

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can become a brāhmaṇa. Equal oppor... We are giving. Any man, he may be caṇòāla but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brāhmaṇa." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a caṇòāla family. You cannot become brāhmaṇa." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. (break) ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has been misrepresented.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brāhmaṇa can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this māyā, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam--brāhmaṇa can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brāhmaṇa can be prepared..., brāhmaṇa is manufactured in India and the son of a brāhmaṇa is a brāhmaṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is propagated by the brāhmaṇas themselves, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is the current idea. (break) ...culture is meant for everyone... (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      October 5, 1975, Mauritius                                                         409647

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak in English or Hindi?

Guest (1) (Indian man): ...you know Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Which you...? No, just I want to end this verse. Shall I speak in Hindi or English? That I am...

Guest (1): Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Hindi. (Hindi) You read it thoroughly and you explain it either in English or Hindi, as you think befitting to your friends. So we have got so many literatures in French language. We are also asking some men from Europe. That will create some impression. Yes. White elephant. (laughter) Dancing. Everyone will purchase ticket. Yes. (Hindi) Bring some white elephant. So literature is there. But one thing is that you must be placed in sadācāra, well behaved. So you have to sacrifice, especially your long hair. And if you sacrifice your hair, we can export it and get some money. (laughter) Because in Western countries they want these hairs to make wigs. Yes. So just... (Hindi) As they have been trained up to rise early in the morning, this will give you spiritual strength. If you simply becomes a gramophone speaker, then it will not be effective. Gramophone or tape record speaker, that will not be. You must be live speaker. Your living condition should be spiritually, what is called, surcharged. So that means you must be trained up how to rise early in the morning, take your bath, cleanse yourself, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then you will be spiritually strong. When you are spiritually strong, if you speak something on spiritual subject matter, then it will be effective. Otherwise it will be just like tape record playing. So this is required. And you should... You are asking something?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: And gradually, when you are well behaving, then you shall be initiated to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That will give you strength, spiritual power. Strictly observe the regulative principles--no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. It is very simple. Read these literatures, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and observe these regulations. Then you will become gradually powerful. Your speeches will be effective. People will like you.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Now the program in the village, Swamijī, how to...

Prabhupāda: Village... Just like you acquire some land. That you will get. It is not very... Is it difficult?

Guest (2): No, sir.

Prabhupāda: Just we are doing so many places. So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows. Keep cows, as many cows as possible, and produce, till the ground, field, and make water supply arrangement. If the investment is required, we shall do that. You have no worry about investment. We shall bring money from anywhere. But the work must be done very nicely. There must be good arrangement for water supply and for plowing and keeping the cows in order. Then you get sufficient milk, sufficient food grains and produce your own cloth. The girls and ladies, they can spine (spin) thread, and from the thread you make cloth, handlooms. So your first necessities of life, eating, and make little cottage, sleeping... And if you want sex, get yourself married, live peacefully. And when you are there you can defend yourself. So the first necessity is how to eat and how to cover. That you have to provide. That is not difficult. You can do it. And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance. And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have... Go on chanting, offering prasādam. You have got your food grains. Don't be dependent on anyone else. Become self-independent. And don't be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life. Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, read book. Then you'll grow strong. Is there any difficulty?

Guest (1): No, Swamijī.

Guest (2): To bring more people in our movement...

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up, more people. Just like I went alone in Europe and America. So I have trained them. So it will depend on your training power, the more people will be attracted. If you advertise, "Come here," and if you have no power to attract them, then it will not be... You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely. Then people will come. If you become purified, then naturally they will come. Just like if you prepare nice preparation with pure ghee, customers will be naturally attracted and they will pay and purchase. And if you prepare rubbish thing, one man may be cheated, but that will not be attraction for the general. Purity is required. That will attract. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that "These people are very happy; they have no anxiety," then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? But if you want brothel and night dancing and wine and meat-eating, then it is spoiled. It becomes impure. To become pure is not at all difficult. Rather, to become impure, it is difficult. But people, with all difficulties, they are becoming impure. Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn't matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization. A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class... This is going on. You'll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class…. That's all. Is it not?

Guest (3) (Indian man): Car is a necessity, Swamijī, don't you think so? Car is a necessity.

Prabhupāda: Not necessary. What is the use of car? If you locate yourself to get everything, your necessity, then where is the use of car? If you require car, you have a bullock cart. That's all. Why should you hanker after petrol, mobile (Mobil?) oil, machine, this, that, so many things. Why?

Guest (3): Yes, but don't you think that it would be impossible for you to come mostly?

Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; we take advantage. We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti, the idea is... Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."

Guest (1): Swamijī, I propose one thing: To influence people more and more in the villages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attraction, villagers.

Guest (1): Yes. We should go there and live with them for...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already suggested that you take land and be an ideal community.

                                                                                                                                                                        409741

Prabhupāda: But one thing you must be assured, that if you can introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, everyone will be happy. Be rest assured. That's a fact.

Guest (1): Because if you go to the villages...

Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy. Men and animal, everyone will be happy. Even the trees and plants, they will be happy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We could have big saìkīrtana parties in the villages here too.

Brahmānanda: How is it that the trees and plants will be happy?

Prabhupāda: Because they will hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not only trees and plants. The insects and everyone, they will have the opportunity of hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtana is so powerful that it will conquer. It will be victorious. So I am very glad to meet you. And do this program.

 

Morning Walk                                              October 6, 1975, Durban                                                           409771

Prabhupāda: English, economics, philosophy or..., mostly Scottish... I was educated in Scottish Churches College. The philosophy professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he was very friendly to me, very kind, just like father. (break) ...he became vice chancellor. He was a very learned man, and very nice man, W. S. Urquhart.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they teach in English or Bengali?

Prabhupāda: No, no. English. Medium English.

Harikeśa: He was the one who said that the woman's brain is thirty-six ounces?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (chuckles) Yes. No, not only he, another professor, Dr. Stephen (indistinct), he also said. That's a fact. Artificially they are trying. It has no meaning. But by agitation you can do anything. That is another thing. But that is not the fact. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam. These are all Indian quarters? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This area? No, I think this is more European. But where we're staying is Indian area. It's all Indian.

Prabhupāda: These European professors, they had to learn Bengali. They knew Bengali. It was compulsory. All European officers who used to come to India for responsible post, it was obligated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they come mostly for missionary work? Was that their purpose?

Prabhupāda: Our professors, they came from missionary, but there were other officers in government service, I.C.S., Indian Civil Service. They were also. In the province where they were employed he must learn the provincial language. Their administration was excellent, undoubtedly, British administration. Nobody in the world, so far administration... But their crooked policy ruined them; otherwise good administrator, good politician, good diplomat.

Harikeśa: They made those nice buildings in Delhi, too.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, and everything good. Simply heart was not very good.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Heart.

Prabhupāda: "Only for Englishmen," "Only for Englishmen." Still that policy is going on here. That is not good. When one takes shelter of you, you must give him proper protection. That liberality is not there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They would make the people dependent upon them and then exploit them, yes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fault. Exploitation was their policy. Whole European, the France, Holland--go some other country and exploit. They were doing the same thing in America also. Therefore America rebelled. Washington was Englishman. Still, he rebelled. He separated. Independent. A small country and bring money from the whole world--this is their bad policy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's actually amazing how they colonized.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was actually amazing to think how they colonized almost...

Prabhupāda: They were obliged to do that. In the country there is no food, no shelter, nothing. Therefore Hitler's determination was, "I shall make this shopkeeper nation again fishers." What is called? Fishermen. "I shall ruin their empire." So he did it. But he also became ruined. He did it. He ruined the Englishmen, but he also became ruined, finished, Germany finished. But Germany will be able to rise again. Englishmen will not be able to.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is that, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: They committed so many sinful activities, yes, for maintaining their empire. To sell their Manchester-made cloth they ruined the cloth industry of India and cut this finger.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cut the thumb off.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thumbs of the weavers so that they cannot manufacture anymore.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very bad.

Prabhupāda: There are so many other things.

Harikeśa: They cut the thumbs of the weavers?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They were making finer cloth by hand than the British were making by machines. So in order to discourage, they would cut off the thumb so they couldn't weave.

Prabhupāda: So many things. And to make a show, the Lord Hasting was impeached in the Parliament.

                                                                                                                                                                        409800

...is growing on the sand, and they say there is no life in the sand. (break--windy beach) ...Bhoga. Bhoga means sense gratification, and aiśvarya, opulence. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām: "Those who are lost of consciousness, such persons become attached to sense gratification and material opulence," bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, "and not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ: "How to become spiritually liberated, they do not care for it." These things do not interest them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're finding that most of our devotees, though, are coming from America. America is the most opulent place.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not most coming. Some coming. The American population is very great. If most would have come, then things would have been different.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Some of the fortunate persons like you, you are coming. Kona, kona, "some fortunate." Kona bhāgyavān jīva. But you can convert them to become fortunate. Devotee can do that. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. They are thinking very much advanced, but they are lost of their sense, lost of their intelligence. They think of us as foolish. We do not enjoy life. (laughter) And we think of them as animals. This is the position. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām.

                                                                                                                                                                        409828

Prabhupāda: ...have gone too much in the sand. It is dangerous. (break) ...panded so much, these Britishers, a few million people. This is demonic. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham: "I have got now so much. Now let me increase more." Never satisfied. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye mano: "I want to be the richest man, God." That was the British policy--ambition. Material ambition is like that. It increases more and more.

                                                                                                                                                                        409865

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like yesterday. That's nice. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam. (break) ...things without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dead body. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇòanaṁ loka-raïjanam. It may be captivating to the foolish men, but it has no value. Because the person who is engaged in these things, he does not know what is the value of life, what is the goal of life. He is wasting time. The house will remain as it is; he will go to hell. That he does not know.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīsa...

The nature's law is different. That is acting in a different way, which you do not know. He is forcing you to become old. He is forcing you to die. Still, you do not know how much you are under the grip of the laws of nature. Such a foolish man, and you are engaged in building skyscraper. Just see. He does not take care that "I am being forced to become something against my will, and I am freely doing all this nonsense." Just like the dog. Dog is thinking, "I am free," running here and there. As soon as the master, "Come on." (laughter) Just see. Even dog has no sense that "I was jumping like free, but I am not free." That sense he hasn't got. So if a human being has not so such sense, what is the difference between him and the dog? Hm? This is to be considered. But they have no sense, no brain, no education, and they are still going on as civilized. Just see. Mūòha. Therefore mūòho ('yaṁ) nābhijānāti.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that this is the most civilized that human beings have ever been, this modern civiliza..., so-called civilization.

Prabhupāda: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Śva-viò-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Śva, viò-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Śva-viò... How selected words in the Bhāgavatam. Śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This desire to accumulate money, is this just like annamaya stage?

Prabhupāda: That is doggish. The example, he has got already one loaf, but another dog: "This is also my stock." Why you should hanker after another? You have got already. Be satisfied. "No." That is doggish mentality. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               October 7, 1975, Durban                                                            409893

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a welfare state here.

Prabhupāda: Why? That is not good. People will be lazy. In special cases the government may give some help, not that the bachelor daddies, and getting welfare, all the girls, and going to be prostitutes. In America they have created purposefully prostitutes. They know they will get money, and they have illicit sex. That's all. The social condition is not good.

                                                                                                                                                                        409930

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you have no conception of God, how can you deny or accept? Remain fool, that's all. That is the difficulty. When you ask them, whole world, "What is the conception of God?" they'll not be able to answer. Still, they will say there is no God. This is the foolishness going on all over the world. Actually they are not concerned with God. They accept the idea of God or so-called God for their material facilities. "O God, give us our daily bread. That's all. If You supply daily bread, then I accept You. Otherwise I reject You." This is their... When there is a war, Churchill will ask them to go, victory, "V": "Go and pray to God." God is order-supplier. And when they declare war, they do not consult God. When there is reverse condition they go to it. This is going on, that God means order-supplier. "Whatever I desire, if You are God then You supply me. Otherwise I reject You." What they will understand, intimate relationship with God, to serve Him as father, as mother, as friend? What they will understand, these rascals? It is not possible. They have no idea of God. Therefore they cannot understand. God is asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya. "What is this?" They cannot understand. Therefore they misinterpret. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is, er... This is one park, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is less wind here than on the beach.

Prabhupāda: No, we can go to the beach. What is that? If it is closed... (break) (Out of car:) The Indians are also coming to that point. The beginning is the rascal Vivekananda. He says, "Where you are searching God? Don't you see so many gods are loitering in the street, poor? Better you serve them. Why do you go to the temple?" This is their propaganda. That means no conception of God. The Ārya-samājīs also, they say, "There is no God in the temple." So in India the Jains, they also say, "There is no God." The Buddhists, they also say, "There is no God." The Christians, they have got very vague idea. So where is God? No God. It is only we are crying, "Here is God." Otherwise, whole world, they are trying to banish God, the Kaṁsa's policy, "Kill God," whole world, the Communists, total. This is our position. Is it wet?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very, very slightly. Not much. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...is interested in God throughout the whole world, cent percent. We are simply canvassing, "Here is God. Take to God." This is our position. And still, some of you are cooperating with me. That is good fortune. Otherwise nobody is interested in God, nobody. They have no idea of God. They are not interested in God. Still, we are predominant, or people know us as Hare Kṛṣṇa people. This is our good luck. Nobody... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "There is no scarcity of anything in this world. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He used to say like that.

                                                                                                                                                                        410028

Prabhupāda: That is the specific position of Vedic culture. The habit, that tendency is there, but by Indian Vedic culture these base tendencies are checked and they are made, I mean to say, given opportunity to advance. That is brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas voluntarily rejected all these. That is ideal, that "Here is an idea!" But here at the present moment there is no such idea! Everyone is after material enjoyment. There is no ideal that "Here is a person who doesn't care for anything. Still he is so exalted." That is wanted. That ideal is not now. Therefore I am trying to create such ideal men.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is happening actually by this movement.

Prabhupāda: We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted. But they have no idea that there can be a class of men, ideal character, ideal knowledge, ideal advancement. They have no such idea. "Simply bring money and enjoy sense gratification," that's all. In that way they will never be happy, but foolish person, they have no leader to give them ideal and neither by nature they are not inclined. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. Who is giving them ideal that "Come to God, and you will be satisfied"? Nobody is giving. They are simply durāśayā. They are thinking by material opulence they will be happy. This is their ignorance. Therefore so much struggle all over the world. It is not the question of India or America. It is the material way of life.

 

Morning Walk                                              October 9, 1975, Durban                                                           410494

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) (in car:) ...ments are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam since the last five thousand years, and these people have become civilized for the last three hundred years, and we have to accept their statement or the statement which is made five thousand years at least? At least they discussed or they had some knowledge. You cannot deny that. They're giving description of all the planets, where it is situated. At least they had discussion. So they were uncivilized?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The moon that we see in the sky...

Prabhupāda: The same moon.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That same moon.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And there is fire, blazing fire, just like the sun. But it is surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. Heat coming through cool atmosphere, it is pleasing. This is the statement. What do they know? They cannot explain why it is so brilliant. We explain, "There is firelike flames; therefore it is brilliant." They say that every planet looks like that. That's not a fact. Then all the planets together, why they cannot illuminate this earth at night? Only the moon is required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they give the excuse that all the other stars are so far away that the light doesn't shine bright enough.

Prabhupāda: There are no other, nearer planets?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There are other planets like Venus and Mars, but they say these planets are much closer than the sun.

Prabhupāda: That means... So why they do not look so bright?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their philosophy is that the earth, Venus and Mars, these different planets, they don't give off any light.

Prabhupāda: Then why do they say that all the planets look like moon? They say like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think the moon is just reflecting light from the sun.

Prahupada: So why it is not reflecting to other planets, only to the moon? Why special advantage to the moon? They have no reason. All rascals' philosophy. Why particularly to the moon? Why not others? Simply theories and mental speculation. They have no scientific. And the śāstra definitely gives the distance of the moon from the sun planet--1,600,000 miles. Then similarly 1,600 million up, the Mars, then Venus, then..., everything. And moon is specifically mentioned that "It is so brilliant because there is fire, blazing fire. And the blazing fire is so illuminating that even at night it looks white, bright." This is reasonable because... Not that it is being reflected by the sun. The sun can reflect other planets, but it is there, fire. Just like sun there is fire, similarly, moon there is fire. The sun is not covered by cool atmosphere, but the moon is covered by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. When there is sunshine and breeze, it is very pleasing. And no sunshine, simply breezing--it is not pleasing. And only sunshine, there is no cool atmo... That is also painful. But sunshine and breezing is very pleasing. So there is, like sunshine, blazing fire and surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore the moon is so pleasing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very reasonable argument, but how do we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles...

Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhāgavata.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does that mean that it's farther away from the earth than the... Does that mean that the earth is farther from the moon than from the sun?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Sun is in the center of the universe, and other planets there are above the sun and lower the sun. Sun is in the middle of the universe.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the moon...

Prabhupāda: Everything is there. The whole, what is called, radius, no, diameter, from one point to another of the universe is given there. Païcāśat-koṭi-yojana. Païcāśat means fifty, and koṭi means ten million. So fifty into ten million. Huh? 500,000,000. Païcāśat-koṭi. And eight.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Four billion.

Prabhupāda: Four billion miles, the area, this way and that way. So if the distance is so vast then one planet situated some millions of miles away, it is not extraordinary. The whole area is four billion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it appears at least for... It appears that the moon is so close.

Prabhupāda: "It appears"--that is another thing. As soon as you say "appears," that means you have no knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But we say on the authenticity of the description in the Vedic literature. Therefore it is authentic. This proves that they did not go to the moon planet. If it is above, 1,600,000 above, then it is impossible. So this is bogus propaganda, they have gone to the moon.

 

Morning Walk                                              Durban, October 13, 1975                                                Not On Folio

Prabhupada: And this side, they are coming from Europe? 

Pusta Krsna: This side, coming from the oil countries, coming down the coast, and also coming... (break)

Prabhupada: How long they can stay in the water?

Pusta Krsna: If it's warm weather they can stay all day.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Pusta Krsna: In the cold weather, a few hours.  They put on these black suits made out of a certain fabric- it's called a wet suit- and they are able to stay in the water much longer. It insulates, insulates the body from the cold water.

Prabhupada: Going for surfing?

Pusta Krsna: These gentlemen?  No, I don't think so.  These young boys are. (break) ... surf, we tell them, "Yes, we surf in the ocean of bhakti-rasa."

Prabhupada: Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. (break) ... karma bandha phasa: one after another. Asate vilasa: material enjoyment means implicated in unnecessary activities.  If people are satisfied, plain living, then these things are not necessary: go into the ocean, find out oil, then bring it in the port, then distribute it, so many, one after another.  That, this kind of civilization, they think it is advanced.  And to live very plainly, minimizing this unnecessary activity, they think it is not civilization.

Pusta Krsna: Primitive.

Prabhupada: Primitive, yes. But primitive meat-eating is continued. That is not to be stopped, primitive drinking and meat-eating.

Pusta Krsna: Would you like a tissue, Srila Prabhupada?  A tissue?

Prabhupada: No. (break)

Pusta Krsna: ... it is misdirected and simply based on sense gratification, has no purpose.  So people may question us that we are putting forward a civilization which India had practiced for thousands of years.

Prabhupada: Why you speak of India?

Pusta Krsna: Well, because when we speak of Vedic culture, a least contemporarily speaking, people think of India. Even few hundred years ago, all the acaryas.

Prabhupada: All right, India. Then?

Pusta Krsna: So then the point is that they criticize that how we can preach such a civilization to the Western countries even it's not working in India today.  Although theoretically it's perfect, practically it's not working.

Prabhupada: No. Practically, because you have preached your culture in India; therefore they have lost their own culture.  The Western, the Britishers were for two hundred years and they preached.  Their policy was to kill the Indian culture.  Because that report of Lord McCauley, after studying Indian situation, the report was to the Parliament that "If you keep India as Indian, then you will not be able to rule over them, so therefore there was regular policy to kill Indian civilization.  And because they were on the governing power, they could do it. Therefore India lost its own culture and victimized by the Western culture. This is the position. Just they are learning how to eat meat, how to drink wine, how to dress them with coat and pant, how to go to the hotel, illicit sex-these things are...

Pusta Krsna: Imported.

Prabhupada: In India it was unknown. They did not know. In our childhood we have seen that they did not know how to drink tea even.

Pusta Krsna: Tea?

Prabhupada: Yes. Nobody would drink tea, no family. We have seen it. And for drinking, for drinking tea, drinking wine, regular propaganda was done. There was a tea assess(?) (tea sets?) committee.  When these foreigners, they began to grow tea in India in the beginning for exporting to Europe and America... Later on, they began to pay some tax to the government. That was known as "tea assess(?) committee."

The tea assess(?) committee, in order to popularize drinking tea, they used to hold stall, just like here in park and public places, and they would prepare very tasty tea and distribute free.

Pusta Krsna: Free.

Prabhupada: Yes. And advertise, "If you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry. Your health will be improved, and so on, so on.  In this way they distribute pamphlet and giving free. Just like we distribute prasadam, they used to distribute very tasteful tea, and people liked it: "Oh, it is very nice." Then they began to drink.  Vigorous propaganda.  And culturally, in our school days they wrote... One Mr. N. Ghosh he, bribed by the Britishers, he wrote one book, England's work in India.  So all the, just like Sati rites...

Pusta Krsna: Sati rite.

Prabhupada:  Yes. That "Later on, after the death of husband in some places the wife was forced to go to the fire, so the Britishers stopped it. And they introduced railway for going the pilgrims and so many, and they constructed bridges to make easy to go from one country to another." And people took it very seriously, that British government is very nice.  And they were publishing in outside country "India is uncivilized. We are making them civilized. And as soon as they are civilized, then we hand over the charge to them. That is our noble mission.' And they were exploiting.  All raw materials was being taken away and the necessities of India, especially cloth, was being supplied. And the local weavers, their hands cut off. So many thing they, tainting... And everything bad.  Just like Jawaharlal Nehru. He became a first-class victim.

Pusta Krsna: First-class?

Prabhupada: Victim of European propaganda.  He used to take "Anything Indian, bad.  Anything Indian, bad." Not only he. Later on, all the so-called educated persons, they took it for granted that “Whatever is done in London, that is first-class, and whatever is Indian original, that is all bad.” And they controlled the native princes.  So many things.  It is a big history, how they killed India's original culture.  And then Hindu-Muslim riots, friction, fighting between Hindus and Muslims and dividing them.

Pusta Krsna: You said that the British instigated the Muslims.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: How did they do that?

Prabhupada: Oh, you... Nowadays you pay somebody, and he will do anything.  So they appointed this Jhinna.  He found that he is a very intelligent lawyer.  He was in the Congress.  So there was dissension.  There must be.  So once this Jhinna was to be the president of the Congress, and the Patel, he frustrated.  So Jhinna became angry, and at this moment the Britishers took it. He was a very intelligent barrister.  So he instigated that, "You form a party, Muslim league.  And whatever money is required for propaganda, we shall pay." So regular subscription was raised from all big, big British companies, mercantile, to pay him: "Whatever money, you organize the Muslims against the Hindus." And he did it.

Pusta Krsna: Jhinna, he was Muslim.

Prabhupiida: He was neither Muslim nor Hindu.  He was an intelligent barrister coming from the... His father, means not real father, his father was Parsi, and he kept one Mohammedan girl.  So theJhinna is the issue of this... (to passerby) Hare Krsna.

Indian: Hare Krsna.

Pusta Krsna: Hare Krsna. Today at 2:30 we have program at Peter Mather Hall.  'Ve's.  Come along.

Indian: Not Carlisle Street?

Pusta Krsna: No. Carlisle Street is the Aga-samaj temple. (laughs) So...

Prabhupada: "So if you make propaganda and pay money to go against the Hindus and incite them" -gradually it developed.And the money was being paid by the Britishers. And he saw that money is coming. He had no feeling, national or... He wanted money, that's all.  For money you can purchase anything nowadays.

Pusta Krsna: Why did the British build all so many railroads?

Prabhupada: For drawing raw materials from villages and bring it to the Calcutta, Bombay port and export to their country because their country does not produce anything.  They're starving.  Still England, London, is maintained by importing goods from Africa, India, here, there.  They have no food there.  They can grow some potato, maybe... Potato only. That was the reason of expanding their empire. They had no food at home, England. They were manufacturing cotton cloth.  That cotton was not grown in their country.  It was brought from Egypt.  They manipulated things in such a way. In America also they wanted to do that, but Americans, just understanding, separated, George Washington. In America I have heard that each family was to maintain a British soldier. You know that?

Pusta Krsna: No, I didn't know that.

Prabhupada: Yes.  And they brought tea from India and other places and sell it in America.  Their whole policy was they exploit the whole world and bring money in London.  That's all.  And one who will do that, he will be honored by the state, given Earl of some small village.  It has no value.  Earl of this whole.... this man.... place, Lord of this. (laughter) A few acres of land and he is Lord of Chelmsford.  And they will be given big, big post, governor, viceroy.

Pusta Krsna: Why did Nehru, though... He was so closely associated with Gandhi, and Gandhi was for getting the foreign products out.  Why did Nehru go so much against that policy?  Why did Nehru?

Prabhupada: No, Nehru, he was searching after some big post.  That's all.  All these political agitators, they want the big post, that's all.  You give them big post, and they will be satisfied.  They will no more agitate.  Political agitators mean they want some prize post from the government.  That's all.  Make them some minister, and they will be no more agitator.

Pusta Krsna: But he is considered to be very religious man in the eyes of the masses.

Prabhupada: Who?

Pusta Krsna: Nehru.

Prabhupada: Nehru?

Pusta Krsna: Yes.  I know one Gujarati school, they have a book.  And in the book it is taught that Gandhi, Nehru...

Prabhupada: That is propaganda.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is propaganda.

Pusta Krsna: (break) ... in the last fifty years or so that especially that the Indian culture has been squashed and perverted by the British.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: Is that because of mass communication, Prabhupada?  Is that because of mass communication?

Prabhupada: Mass communication or no...

Pusta Krsna: Radio, and things like this.

Prabhupada: Yes, if you want to make mass communication, you can do anything. (break) Due to industrialization, all intelligent men, they came in the city. In the village it was deserted.  So there was no improvement in the village, and people preferred to come to the city, means industry, business.  So India's basic principle was village life.  Now that is lost.  The intelligent class men, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, they left villages for earning more money in the cities, and only the sudras, less intelligent class of men, less than sudras, they remained.  So what they will do?  So village became deserted.  Still you'll go and see in Indian villages, especially in Bengal, so many big, big palatial buildings, they are lying vacant.

Pusta Krsna: In the villages?

Prabhupada: Yes.  Because the proprietor left and the poor cultivators, sudras, they are accustomed to live in cottages.  India's civilization was based on village residence.  They would live very peacefully in the villages.  In the evening there would be bhagavata-katha.  They will hear.  That was Indian culture.  They had no artificial way of living, drinking tea, and meat eating and wine and illicit sex.  No. Everyone was religious and satisfied by hearing-what we are just introducing-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, Puranas, and live simple life, keeping cows, village life as it is exhibited by Krsna, Vrndavana.  Krsna, if He liked, He could have lived in the cities. (pause) So he education was meant for teaching people to hate everything Indian.

Pusta Krsna: Hate everything Indian.

Prabhupada: Yes. That was the policy of education.  So as soon as one became graduate and educated, he began to hate everything Indian original, and if he would get some clerk's business, service in some office, and his life is successful.  That is still going on.  So our car is here?

Pusta Krsna: It's just up here, Srila Prabhup5da.

Prabhupada: The brahmana became by caste brahmana.  He will do everything nonsense and still, he remains a brahmana.  But you can introduce the original Vedic culture in this Europe and America.  You have understood.  You can do it.  By this material civilization they will never be happy, and it is risky.  That they do not know.  They do not believe in the transmigration of the soul.  So irresponsibly... Or just like these elderly persons, how they are wasting time.

Pusta Krsna: Just sitting on the beach.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not only sitting, they have no other engagement.  They do not know how human life should be utilized. They do not know. They are simply taking consideration of the body, running or skating or this or that, but they have no other engagement. They do not believe that there is soul and that soul's business is first business.  They do not know that, neither they do accept it. They are under nature's law, very simply explained in the Bhagavad- gita, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara.  By nature's law you have to change your body. It is evident.  Still, they will not believe.  We're changing body every moment, and they will say, big, big professors, that after the body is finished, everything is finished.  This is ajnana.  And that is going on as education, whole world. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is in ignorance, so we are giving them wise instruction.  They are thinking, "These people are crazy men." That's all.

Pusta Krsna: How were the leaders, though, of India so weak when the British first occupied that they allowed this all to take place?

Prabhupada: There was no Indian leader.  That was occupied by the Mohammedans.  They were deteriorating.  Yes.  Besides that, Indian mass of people, they were never trained to become nationalist.  They thought, "Let anyone become king.  It doesn't matter.  We... Let us live peacefully, and whatever due tax we shall pay.  That's all." When the Mohammedans came the people did not think that these are foreigners.  "It does not matter, Mohammedan, Hindu." But they did not think so far that gradually it will deteriorate.  Even Bhaktivinoda Thdkura, he has favored the British government because they did not interfere with the religious affair.

Pusta Krsna: (entering car) Bhaktivinoda Thakura.  Over the Muslims.

Prabhupada: No, Britishers.  The Muslims interfered.  They wanted to propagate Islamism.  Not all, some of them.  But Britishers, although they were spreading Christianism, still, outwardly they were neutral about religious affairs.  So Bhaktivinoda Thakura preferred that "Britishers are good.  They do not interfere with our religious affair." So the idea is that India-you may say primitive or whatever you want-they wanted to make progress of the soul.  They did not care who is ruling.  So 'whatever tax is due we shall pay.  Let us do our own business.' That was India's attitude.  They never thought in terms of nationalism.  That was never educated.  They were never educated.

Pusta Krsna: (to driver) Go down this street, Prabhu.

Prabhupada: Nationalism was unknown to India.  They never thought.

Bhargava: … allow the Muslims to enter and do so much damage to the Vedic culture?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bhargava: Why did Krsna allow the Muslims to enter and do so much damage to th...

Prabhupada: Krsna is your father's servant that you do something wrong and Krsna has to check it?  Is your Krsna your father's servant?  Then why do you ask this question?  If you allow somebody to cut your head, has Krsna to come to save you?  Why do you ask this nonsense question?  You are Krsna conscious.  Samo ham sarva-bhutesu.  If you cut your own head, what Krsna will do?  In the same term, nationalism, as Vedic culture is Krsna's national affair, your disease is there.  Why Krsna will come to save the Vedic culture?  What business He has got?  If you are spoiling it, then why Krishna will come?  Spoil, and suffer. (break) ... the same question in a different way, "Why India?  Why Krsna? "As if Krsna is Indian.  Krsna is Indian?

Then why do you ask this question, that " Krsna will come to save India's culture?"

Bhargava: Not the Indian culture but the Vedic culture, Krsna's culture.

Prabhupada: Vedic culture, He has given, Bhagavad-gita.  Why don’t you accept it?  You don't accept; then suffer.  He has given His instruction.  The government gives you the law.  Now, when you violate, the government will come to stop you?  You violate and suffer.  Why do you expect that “when I violate the laws, the government men will come and stop me?" Why do you on the law expect like that?  Eh?  The government can give you the law book.  You consult and do accordingly.  You'll be happy.  And if you don't, against, the government man is not coming to stop you.  You do and suffer.  Krsna says, 'Whenever there is discrepancy, I come.' That is general, not for India.  Vedic culture is not for India.  It is for everyone.

Pusta Krsna: It’s just that people have taken India as a model of our philosophy, and sometimes people judge our philosophy by India's practical application.

Prabhupada: That is a... That is a fact.  India was practically following the Vedic culture.  That's a fact.  But now they have given up, so what Krsna can do?  They have been victimized.  So if you give up your own culture...

Pusta Krsna: But this propaganda is going on even here, that anything which is Indian is inferior, and anything which is European is good.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the propaganda always.  That is going on. That I already explained, that this was the propaganda of the Britishers, "Anything Indian is bad."You see, they wanted to stop our Ratha-yatra in London as soon as they saw that it is becoming popular.  Even in India the government doesn't want that Krsna consciousness movement should go ahead.  It is the demonic principle-Krsna should be cut down.  That is the way of demonic civilization.  Stop Krsna consciousness.  Now we are preaching, 'No illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating." Do you think people like it?

Pusta Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: Everyone is against this movement.  So who is coming to save us?  Nobody is coming.  Krsna is saving.  Otherwise it would have been stopped long, long ago.  I was thinking that "As soon as I shall propose all these things, immediately these American people will ask me to go back home.  Instead of go back to Godhead, "You go back to India." (laughter) So it is Krsna's kindness that you, a few boys and girls, have accepted this principle.  Otherwise who likes this?  Nobody likes.  Nobody likes.  Lord Zetland flatly said, "Oh, it is impossible." This is the life and soul of the modem civilization. Just see the advertisement-sex.  You see, illicit sex.  Who would like our movement?  Nobody likes.  What is this picture means?  Sex, that's all.  So many advertise .... wine advertisement, meat-eating, gambling-everything.  The modern life is going on the basis of these four principles of sinful life, and we want to stop it.  Nobody likes it.  Still, -we are selling so many books and People are hearing us... (break) (out of car)Why the scientist does not make chemical composition egg?

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Huh?  What is your answer?

Pusta Krsna: They say that life is made of organic compounds.

Prabhupada: That's all right.  You combine them.

Pusta Krsna: We can't.

Prabhupada: Then why do you say nonsense?  What is the answer?

Pusta Krsna: Well, if we take these organic compounds and mix them together at the smallest level, then we can build up these compounds and make some kind of life.

Prabhupada: Yes, make this chicken.  You require so many chicken.  Why do you take the eggs from other chicken? You come on, make it.                                         

Pusta Krsna: I don't think the scientists have ever been asked to make an egg before.

Prabhupada: Simply cheating and taking huge sum of money.  All bluff.

Pusta Krsna: Hare Krsna.

Harikesha: They mav say "What is the use of creating an egg?"

Prabhupada: Hm?'

Harikesha:"What is the use of creating an egg?

Prabhupada: You require so many eggs.

Harikesha: 'Well, the chickens are already doing that.  We're doing things that nature can't do.'

Prabhupada: No, no our point is that you want to create life, so first is. Create chicken, and then we shall think of other important living beings.  Point is that in order to produce life you have to take another life, assistance.  You cannot…that life is made of matter, that is not the fact.  Life is made of life.  So you are taking the eggs from another life. And in the egg there is life.  That you do not know.  Sometimes they take it that egg is vegetable.  No. What is that?

 Hariketa: Well, the egg is not fertilized, so it's not yet a chicken.  It’s just an egg.

Prabhupada: So that s all right.  It is lump of matter.  So you take a lump of matter and fertilize a life.

Harikesha: Well, I'm convinced.  There's nothing... (laughing) ... nothing left to say.

Pusta Krsna: The argument is that the scientists are claiming they can do so many big things, but they can't even manufacture one egg.

Prabhupada: That's it.  And these rascals are talking very big, big words.  That has to be stopped, that "Don't talk nonsense and bluff people and take high salary, simply cheating.  Don't cheat any more.  Admit that you cannot do anything.  You simply bluff.  That's all." That is to be done.

Harikesha: “Well, with all our research we're finding cures to so many diseases.  With our research..."

Prabhupada: That, you nonsense, you go on doing, but no disease is stopped.  You... Futile attempt.

Harikesha: "But twenty years ago there was so much smallpox everywhere.  But now..."

Prabhupada: That is nonsense.  You have stopped smallpox, but you have increased cancer.  So what is the use?

Harikesha: "Now we are finding a cure for that also."

Prabhupada: That's all.  Go on working like ass, (laughs) without any... Even if you have some medicine for disease, you cannot stop disease.  You cannot stop death.

Harikesha: "Well, man's duration of life is getting longer."

Prabhupada: Rascal. (laughs)

Harikesha: "Just like in the fourteen or fifteen hundreds people only lived to be about forty or fifty years old, and now they are living so long."

Prabhupada: They are living now twenty-five years.  In India the average is thirty-five or twenty-five.  After all, you are going to die.  That you cannot check. (aside:) You have come.  Namaskar (Hindi) (break) ... very big scientist.  They say that life is made out of chemicals.  Now you just try to make life by combination of chemicals and fertilize it.  Why they cannot do it? So many things.  Simply people are being bluffed, and they are kept in ignorance, and they are flourishing at the expense of these rascals.

Indian man (1): That is right.

Prabhupada: Yes.  There is no real knowledge.

Indian man (1): No. They cash in on the ignorance of the people.

Prabhupada: That's it. (Hindi-break)

Indian man (1): Cheat everybody, I mean, get all the members and live on that. (break)

Indian man (2): Where does it have it's place in Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: Omkara is... Omkara is sound representation of Krsna.  One who is unable to chant Krsna, for them omkara.  Because there are many envious persons they won't chant Krsna -therefore Krsna has given them omkara.

Indian man (2): And the swastika?

Prabhupada: Pranavah.  Pranavah sarva-vedesu.  It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh, pranavah sarva-vedesu.  Hare Krsna.

Indian man (2): Swastika.

Prabhupada: Swastika is also there, Vedic mark.  Especially for the impersonalists.  But we take direct, beautiful Krsna, and worship Him. (break)

Pusta Krsna: When did civilization begin?  Well, the first men, they were uncivilized.  Then, by little bit of intelligence they developed different types of tools and weapons.  When, they have no date, though.

Prabhupada: Therefore his civilization-so much, that's all.  His standard of civilization, this much. (break) ... no tree, even a small tree is considered big tree. (break) Man came from ape, so why man is not coming now from ape?  Hm? 

Harikesha: It only happened once, and that was enough to start the whole thing.

Prabhupada: Only once.

Pusta Krsna: It had to happen at least twice.

Prabhupada: That is another rascaldom.  We see the flowers and fruits are coming every season.  Why once?  This dogmatic, we have to accept?  Our experience is that by nature's way we find the same flower is coming again in the same season.

Pusta Krsna: Well, actually Darwin said that there's a missing link.

Prabhupada:     You rascal, you say that.  What is that missing link?  Simply bluffing, and it is going on in the name of science. Just see the fun.  Simply misleading, and people are so rascal, this civilized man, so-called, he is accepting as great theory.

Pusta Krsna: Accepting?

Prabhupada: This Darwin's theory as very big invention or discovery.  Simply childish rascaldom.  There is no reason; there is no sense.  Man came from monkey -why not coming now?  Stop once.  So what kind of men came first? 

Pusta Krsna: First there was very primitive man.

Prabhupada: No, primitive...

Pusta Krsna:They think that he resembles a monkey very much.

Prabhupada: So there are in Africa these men.  They resemble that, what is called?  That animal?

Pusta Krsna: Gorilla.

Prabhupada: Gorilla.  So these men are still existing.  But why from gorilla they do not come?

Pusta Krsna: They don't come from the gorilla.

Prabhupada: Africans, I have seen, they look like gorilla. So why now from gorilla the Africans or any black man is not coming?  Then the question is the black man... We have got experience.  The black man  come.  And wherefrom the white man came?  Is there any white gorilla?

Pusta Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: No.  Then white man, how did he come?

Harikesha: Well, sometimes there is a freak of nature, and the pigments that are in the skin...

Prabhupada: Simply it is for Darwin, "some time." To support his rascaldom, nature has to serve him "sometimes."Just see.  We have to believe.  Nature's law is the same, symmetrical.  Nature is not obliged to serve Mr. Darwin, the rascal.  Sometimes.  He says, "sometimes." He did, and he knew it only and nobody knew.  We have to believe that.  Sometimes it was done, and it was revealed to Darwin.  How he came to know?  Nobody could understand.  Only Darwin could understand?  There was no other?

Pusta Krsna: They use the same argument against us, though, that... They use the same argument against us that so few people can understand God...

Prabhupada: No We don't say like that.  We say that God first spoke to sun-god, and sun-god spoke to his son, Manu, And Manu spoke to Iksvaku, Iksvaku spoke to his son.  In this way are there.  We don't say, "The God spoke to me." Evam parampara-praptam.  That is quite reasonable.  God said to Brahma, and the Brahma said to Narada, Narada said to Vyasadeva,Vyasadeva said to others.  In this way we should know.  If my father said to my forefather... My forefather said to my father or my grandfather, and the same news is coming in family way, then where is the wrong?  We don't say, "Darwin simply knew it." No, we don't say that.  Evam  parampara praptam.  He was a rascal number one, all these scientists, the so-called scientists.

Pusta Krsna: But how can we prove Krsna scientifically?

Prabhupada: First of all let them prove their theory.  Then we shall prove ours.  We are proving.  We have got our own way.  But why they are speaking all this nonsense?  First of all let him prove that he is genuine.  Then our turn will be next.  Ours is very easy Krsna said to sun-god, and sun-god said to his son, his son, his son.  It is coming like that.  Where is the difficulty?  Again Krsna says, "Now it is mismanaged.  It is lost, so I am saying again to you Arjuna.' So what Arjuna has understood, we are understanding the same way.  How Arjuna understood it that is written in the Bhagavad-gita.  Where is the... We have no difficulty.  But you jump over: "There is link," that "Once only from monkey came." What is this nonsense?  We have to believe this?  Has it any sense?  And because Mr. Darwin is speaking we have to accept it?  We cannot...

Harikesha: Well, certain changes take place. Just like when it is very hot, if you are in a hot climate all the time your blood thins.

Prabhupada: That's all right.  No, no.  This is not...

Harikesha: Well, if you take that further, all of these changes that mount up to some big physical change.

Prabhupada: No change is taken.  The nature is working symmetrically always.  The sun is rising in the morning.  That is going on for million, million, million, millions of years.

Harikesha: Gradually the change has taken place in a very scientific way, step by step.

Prabhupada: What change has taken place?

Harikesha: First the hairs fell off..

Prabhupada: Morning... In the morning the sun rises on the eastern side.  That is going on.  What change has taken place? This flower, seasonal flower is... Now seasonal changes winter, summer, spring-everything is going on symmetrically.  There is no change.  Because it is going on symmetrically, therefore we can say that February, next February will be very nice season here.  Why?  Because we have got experience last February, so we are certain the same thing will happen in the next February.  Therefore we can say.  There is no such change.  Nature's way.  Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani.  It is very symmetrical.  Everything is going on nicely, nature's way.

Pusta Krsna: One of the strong points of Darwin's theory...

Prabhupada: I don't find.  Simply foolishness I accept.  And rascal, foolish like you, will believe. (laughter)

Pusta Krsna: They argue that five thousand years ago they have no history, so they think that before that time...

Prabhupada: "They think." That is their rascaldom.

Pusta Krsna: Formerly there was no civilization.  Therefore like monkey.

Prabhupada: "They think." That is their... We don't "think." We have got millions of years' history.  Why we shall think with them, with these rascals?  They may think, the rascal.  A child may think like something, but an elderly man will not think like that.  Because they are thinking like that, we have to think with them?

Pusta Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: Then?  Because the rascals are thinking in some way, we have to believe that?  First of all let them prove that they are sane men.  They are all insane rascals.  Why shall I take their words?  We are taking words from Krsna, who is accepted the Supreme by all the acaryas, all the great sages.  Why shall I go to this rascal Darwin?  We are not so fools.  We cannot accept.

Harikesha: Well, the Bible is just some story.  I mean, the Bible, is just some story.  Why should we believe that all of a sudden there was...

Prabhupada: No, Bible is not authorized because it was compiled after Jesus Christ finished.

Harikesha: No, the Bible was there... Old Testament has been there for thousands of years.

Prabhupada: Old Testament, but what is going on, Bible,...

Harikesha: That Genesis, where it says the creation...

Prabhupada:     That is another thing.

Harikesha: That's just some story.  Why should we believe it?  There's nothing else to believe.  Why not believe this Darwin? 

Prabhupada: No, but you are not believing Bible.  Bible, they say that the earth is square.  So nobody is believing.  So one point is sufficient, that it is not perfect.  One point is sufficient.

Harikesha: (laughing) It says the earth is square?

Prabhupada: Yes, they... They say it.  Formerly they believed that.

Pusta Krsna: Probably does.

Harikesha: Oh, you mean flat.

Prabhupada: You'll fall down.  If you go very far, you'll fall down.Just like a child thinks.  Bible, so many have been proved not authorized.  Therefore Bible is not authorized.

Harikesha: So we had this religion, and everybody was saying that this was the correct way, the official policy.  So everybody knew this was nonsense.  So Darwin is very scientific, so we accept the science.

Prabhupada: What is that science?  He said, "By chance, once, nature came." Is that ... ? That is not science.  We don't find, nature's way, by chance it comes.  No. As soon as you talk something nonsense, your whole statement will be accepted as nonsense because you are nonsense.  What is the value of your statement?  This is our test.  Once you say something nonsense, you are wholesale nonsense.  That is our test.  You cannot say, "I am sorry.  It was incorrect," no.  That is not allowed.  Then your whole statement is incorrect.  This is our...

Harikesha: Scientists are always doing that.  They're always saying that.

Prabhupada: Therefore they're all nonsense.

Harikesha: "Last year we made a mistake.  Now it's all right."

Prabhupada: "Now we advance." And what is the guarantee that it is all right?  You will advance again.  That means you are always incorrect.

Harikesha: But people always think that it's always getting     better.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. This is called ma-ya. They remain rascal; still, they think that they are advancing.

Harikesha: Nobody thinks about that point, nobody.

Prabhupada: If everyone is rascal, how he will think?  We say mudha, all rascals.

Pusta Krsna: But when the early scientists, they were analyzing the body, they tried to find the soul.  They would look for the soul in different parts of the body.  They couldn't find it with their microscopes.

Prabhupada: That's all right.  That is his rascaldom.  He's a rascal.  But soul is there.  Then find out what is the missing point of a dead man.  If there is no soul, something is missing.

Harikesha: Well, actually they've pinned it down to a little bit of a molecule that breaks down.

Prabhupada:     That's all right.  Bring that molecule.

Harikesha: They're working on it.

Prabhupada: Huh?  Again, "working on it." You see.  This is bluff.  This is bluff.

Harikesha: Now they are inventing these different DNA and RNA molecules to change people by injecting them with these different things before they are born, making new people.

Prabhupada: That is not very difficult thing.  If you make some vegetable, if you add more sugar it becomes sweet.  If you add more salt it becomes salty.  That you can do.  That is not very difficult.  Our question is wherefrom the life comes?  That is our... So they do not give any answer to this.  That is their foolishness.  What is that life?  They say life developed from chemical.  Now do it.  By chemical combination make in one egg and give it to the fomenting machine.  What is that?  Fomenting machine?  They have got heating machine?

Harikesha: Incubator.

Prabhupada: Incubator.  Put it there.  Then we shall accept your science.  Why don't you do that?  Then your all theories are useless.  This is practical.

Harikesha: It seems much more practical to make a computer than to make an egg.  I mean, a computer...

Prabhupada: Whatever it maybe, do it.  And from that egg, you get chicken.                 Then I

shall accept that you are scientist.  Otherwise you are    rascal, talking all madman's

proposal.  Do it.  Ask them.  Write in the paper that "Prabhupada was speaking

like that, a challenge to the scientist: 'Is there any scientist who can make an egg

which is put in the incubator and gradually it comes to become...'

Harikesha: They will think we are completely crazy.

Prabhupada: Huh?  Well, then kick on their face, on their nose, rascal.  We are crazy or you are crazy?

Harikesha: But who wants to make eggs?

Prabhupada: Huh?  No, no, it is an experiment.  You say life comes from chemical.  So by chemical combination make an egg and do it.  Begin from this.  Then we shall see others.  This is very easy.  If you have already analyzed the yellow portion of the egg, the white portion of the egg and that outer plastering can be done.  Nowadays there is... What is called? 

Harikesha: Plastic.

Prabhupada: Plastic.  It can be done.  Do it.

Pusta Krsna: Make a chicken.

Prabhupada: Yes.  Make a chicken or so many birds.  If not chicken, make a sparrow.  Do something.  Do something.  Why you should be misled by them, these rascals?  Challenge him.  Challenge them publicly that 'These rascals are misleading.  Don't accept them.  They're simply misleading."

Harikesha: Well, they're the best we have.  They're the best we have.  We have nobody.  Who else is going to take care of us?

Prabhupada: No, at least... We ... just like we challenge, they cannot give answer.  This should be proved.  Then they will be proved that they are rascals.

Harikesha: The whole scientific craze seems to be settling down anyway.  It seems to be dying down.

Prabhupada: It must die.  The scientists, they admit now, "What we shall do?  We have bluffed in so many ways.  Now what is the next bluffing?"Their bluff, last bluffing, was going to the moon planet, and everything is failed.  Then what is next bluffing?  That is their problem, how to keep their big, big post?

Harikesha: There's nothing left to do.

Prabhupada: Yes.  They have finished all their theories.  Still, they could not do anything.  This is their position. (break) Margarine is also another bluff.  It is oil; it is taken as ghee, er, butter.

Harikesha: They say it's very healthy for you.

Prabhupada: They will say.

Harikesha: It doesn't have all those cholesterols.

Prabhupada: Otherwise how they will sell?  They will say.  They will present anything nonsense in flowery language, and people will be cheated.  That's all.

Harikesha: Americans can’t stand this butter and ghee.  When we cook in these pure things like ghee, they become very upset.

Prabhupada: Because meat-eaters.

Harikesha: If it's not impure they don't like it.

Prabhupada: Meat-eaters cannot digest ghee.  Therefore in America, all of a sudden change of diet in our..., their stomach become upset. Just like animal, dogs, they cannot eat this ghee preparation.

Pusta Krsna: They can't take it.

Prabhupada: They can't take it.  So these meat-eaters, like dogs, they cannot digest. (break)

Pusta Krsna: In our philosophy, how did man come about?  They'll ask us what is our philosophy how man came about.

Prabhupada: Man came from man.  The first man is Brahma.  From him came.  And Brahma came from Narayana, Visnu.  So this is easy.  Brahma appeared from Visnu.

Pusta Krsna: So the first created being was a man.

Prabhupada: Yes, Brahma, a first-class man.

Pusta Krsna: Even before the plants.  Even before the plants.

 Prabhupada: Yes, because man can create everything.

Pusta Krsna: That means Genesis in the Bible is wrong, because they say that first there were plants and then trees and then after man came.

Harikesha: No, first they say that there was a man did that.

Prabhupada: They say Adam and Eve.

Pusta Krsna: But they say first that the plants and the fish and the trees and the birds...

Prabhupada: Then Adam, Eve.

Pusta Krsna:Then, afterwards, that after creating so many things, the plants and the trees, God was still lonely.

Prabhupada: Brahma... Brahma, when he was created, he was in darkness.  He could not see anything.  "What to do?  What ... ?  Why I am?" Then he tapasya, meditation.  Then he was given intelligence.  Then, gradually, everything...

Harikesha: It seems that the Christians' idea of God is our idea of Brahma.  Their God is like Brahma.  He's just a creator.

Prabhupada: What is their idea?  I do not know.

Pusta Krsna: Their idea is that in the beginning there was darkness until God created the light.  Then he created the different heavenly planets and the oceans and the inanimate things.  Then He created...

Prabhupada:     Then it is like Brahma.

Harikesha: It is like Brahma.  And their heaven and hell is like the upper and lower planetary systems.  It's all little bit of knowledge.

Prabhupada:     Little difference, maybe, but the basic...

Pusta Krsna: They say that Adam was created...

Prabhupada: Then their God created.  God created.  So that is all right.  We also say God created Brahma.

Pusta Krsna:Then they say that woman was created from a rib of  Adam.

Prabhupada: That is also correct.  That is also possible.  Created from God, so that is accepted.  The description may be little different.  That doesn't matter.  But God is the origin of all creation.  If that is accepted, this is nice.

Harikesha: They also have this Noah and his ark thing, where all the earth became covered with water.

Prabhupada: Devastation.

Harikesha: It's like a Matsya avatara.

Prabhupada: So that is acceptable.  Description may be little different.  That doesn't matter.  But God is the origin.  Vedanta sutra also says, janmady y asya yatah, that "Absolute Truth is that from where everything comes." And the Bible, it is said, 'God created this earth." So that is acceptable.  Then Darwin says that all of a sudden a man was created.  Wherefrom it came out?  What is the first creation according to Darwin?

Harikesha:  Very small microbes.  And then they developed to many-celled animals and amoebas and...

Prabhupada: So how this microbe was created?

Harikesha: Spontaneous generation.

Prabhupada: Spontaneous?  And it is known to you only, Mr. Darwin?  You are the only intelligent man.  You could understand.  And you are talking so foolish, and still, we have to accept it. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 October 14, 1975, Johannesburg                                                    410874

Prabhupāda: They are making so many wonderful things, but they cannot stop death.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They just make it quicker.

Prabhupāda: After all, they are going to die. In Bengal it is said the topmost ill-naming, what is that? Ill-naming?

Harikeśa: Defamy?

Prabhupāda: Defamy. Gali. Just like I say, “You rascal fool, you...,” so many things. I rebuke. What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Defamy.

Prabhupāda: Defamy. So the last defamy is that you die. I say, “You are rascal. You are fool. You are this, and that.” This is all not so dangerous. But if I say that “You die,” that is the last defamy. So in spite of all their clever invention, they are going to die. Then what is the value? That you cannot check. “I have done wonderful things”—that’s all right, invention, so many things. That’s all right. “But what about my death?” Have you done anything that you can save yourself? You, Mr. Darwin, you have so experience. Millions of millions of years you have got. Why don’t you stop your death? You cannot live more than a hundred years, and you are talking of millions of years. What is this nonsense? You stop your death, live for millions of years and see things. So where is that power? Then what is your value? You live for fifty years, sixty years, or utmost, hundred years, and you talk of millions of years?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually our theory, even taken as a theory, that the soul is there and enters the body, and when the soul leaves, the body is finished, it’s very palatable, very palatable. Very few people argue with it. It’s simply that they’ve been miseducated. Therefore they are cheated. They accept.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty, that, wholesale people have been miseducated. That is our protest. And this miseducated is ruling the whole world, all rascals (break)

 

Morning Walk                                          October 16, 1975, Johannesburg                                                   410962

Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are trying to become happy by material adjustment. This will never be successful. So what is their answer?

Harikeśa: They might point out how successful they have been in the past.

Prabhupāda: What successful?

Harikeśa: Now we have these big, beautiful houses. If it's too hot we air-condition it.

Prabhupāda: You have to be... You will be kicked out from the house. You will not be allowed to stay here. What is this success? You will be kicked out. What is your success? You have constructed very nice house. Very good. All credit to you. But I shall kick you out. What you will do? Where is your success? Hm? It is waste of time. That is sane man's intelligence. "If I am going to be kicked out, why shall I spoil my energy in this way?" This is intelligence. But they have no intelligence even.

Harikeśa: But that's just a fatalistic attitude.

Prabhupāda: Why fatalistic? It is practical. You want to live, you want to enjoy this nice house, but you are not allowed. Why don't you talk practically? That is your foolishness, that you will not be allowed--that's a fact--but still, you are spoiling your energy. That is foolishness.

Harikeśa: Well, it's not exactly spoiling. We are really enjoying.

Prabhupāda: What enjoying?

Harikeśa: When it's too hot we can make it cooler. When it's too cool we can make it hotter.

Prabhupāda: But at the same time, you want to live and enjoy. That is not allowed. Everyone wants to live and enjoy. Hm? Otherwise why, when there is attack outside, why do you fight? The tendency is that "I shall live comfortably." Why these white Europeans have made so high plan? So that they may not be kicked out by the Africans. That is the tendency. Therefore they are making secure, Africans far away so that they may not come. You want to live securely, but that is not there. You may make political arrangement very secure, but what is the nature's arrangement? You'll be kicked out at any moment. There is no certainty. There is no guarantee even that you will be allowed to live for so many years. At any moment.

Harikeśa: But if we're always thinking of death, how can we enjoy life now?

Prabhupāda: But death is sure. If you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the point. (laughs) Death is sure. And if you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the proof. Suppose I am sitting here, we are walking here, and some danger is coming. It will immediately kill. So shall I remain here very peacefully? First of all make insurance, just like they make insurance, that no death will come. Your scientific advancement, your so many advancement, make it sure that you will not die. You will live here comfortably forever. Then you make your house nice, decorate it very... Where is that arrangement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if death is sure in any case... If death is sure in any case, for the thinking man or for the nonthinking man, then why think about it?

Prabhupāda: No, non... For thinking men, for them there is no death; there is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between thinking men and nonthinking men. We are preparing for going... (break) There is... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. That is intelligence. Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Matchbox also.

Prabhupāda: Matchbox.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Harikeśa: I don't know. I'm enjoying.

Prabhupāda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter)

Devotee (1): We need defense so we have to work hard to keep defense, economy. The common man has to contribute to the state to keep its defense.

Prabhupāda: Defense, that means...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's today... Unless there is very complex society...

Devotee (1): Otherwise we will be exploited.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless there is a very complex...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?

Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers.

Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog. That's all, watchdog. (laughter) That's all, civilization of cats and dogs.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the 1975 Nobel Peace Award was awarded to a leading scientist who helped the nuclear weapon, who created the H-bomb. Just recently it was awarded to him.

Harikeśa: Peace prize? (laughing)

Devotee (1): Yes. Nobel Peace Prize in Russia, Oslo.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you are giving the real peace formula.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless they stop their sinful life, they have to suffer.

Prabhupāda: I am not giving. Kṛṣṇa is giving. Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasam sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. There is... (break) ...formula, if you want to make peaceful the dog society, is it possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, they are keeping men as dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? They are educating general mass of people like cats and dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? Make them first of all sober men. Then there is question of peace. (break) ...God consciousness, there is no question of peace. (break) If we know that the Supreme Lord, God, is our father, and He has..., everything belongs to Him, His property; therefore, instead of fighting, let us enjoy father's property peacefully. Then there will be peace. We are peacefully walking in this park because we know that it is commonwealth; it is government's property. I can walk, and the dog can also walk. Then there will be peace. And if I think, "No, it is my property," and you think your property, then there will be fight between you and me. So where is peace? Why you claim South Africa as your property? You are foreigner. You want peace. You are expert in keeping them subdued, the Africans. Otherwise, lawfully, it is African property. Why you have taken? Either you make it God's property, otherwise make it African property. You have no right to come here. If you say God's property, then everyone has got equal right. So they do not know what is the meaning of peace.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If nothing is our property--in fact, everything is Kṛṣṇa's property--why is there this desire to possess so many things?

Prabhupāda: Possess, you can possess. Tena tyaktena bhuïjithā. The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God's representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men's foodstuff. You calculate the ten men's foodstuff, for producing, you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food. And because it is God's property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production--no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God's land. You cannot... Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter; where there is overpopulation? How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they're overpopulation. Why don't you allow them, that "In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully"? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascal, rogues? For want of God consciousness. They do not know that it is God's property, falsely thinking, "My property." And today I am thinking, "My property," and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smuts? Who can say? Maybe he was Smuts; now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature's process. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death you'll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smuts did not accept a dog's body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that "Mr., General Smuts has got now this body. He is living here"? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, "My father is gone." Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, "My father is gone." Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge.

Harikeśa: It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality...

Prabhupāda: No, not... Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?

Harikeśa: What about those people who don't want to work? They are lazy.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: What about lazy people?

Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.

Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...

Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of...

Prabhupāda: No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know?

Harikeśa: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ...

Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra and then pick from them.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: He would initially pick...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then...

Harikeśa: Pick out.

Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?

Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Everyone is hankering after: "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply?

Devotee (1): They lack central happiness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He'll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he'll say, "First of all work. Then get your food." He'll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all.

Harikeśa: Chopping rocks.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work.

Harikeśa: "Action is better than inaction."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Harikeśa: A man cannot even keep his own body in shape.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (laughter)

Harikeśa: I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect varṇāśrama society; government is taken care of...

Prabhupāda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care?

Harikeśa: When it is properly set up.

Prabhupāda: First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People's government.

Harikeśa: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals...

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help.

Harikeśa: So the Āyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?

Harikeśa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?

Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society--money.

Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.

Devotee (3): They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.

Harikeśa: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed?

Prabhupāda: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper.

Harikeśa: But you have to do something to get it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is called bartering.

Prabhupāda: Bartering. So there is no need of money. Similarly, you go to another shop. You get. So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. Somebody is producing something, somebody is producing something. But it can be done. Suppose I am a blacksmith. You want some work from me. So you say that "I'll make this instrument for me." So I say, "You give me one kg paddy." So you give me one kg, I prepare you, so your necessity is fulfilled. Now I have got so much paddy. Now, I may go to purchase something else because I am blacksmith, so grains will be used for my eating, and for, say for ghee, I take the same grain somewhere. So where is the money need of?

Harikeśa: It's very difficult to cheat in that system. It's very difficult to cheat.

Prabhupāda: Cheat?

Harikeśa: In a system of bartering it's very hard to cheat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no cheating. Everyone is simply simple, honest. And here the government begins cheating. He is engaging you to hard work day and night and paying you a piece of paper, where it is written "one hundred dollars." That's all. This is your society, cheating and cheater. That's all.

Harikeśa: People have a hard time understanding that point, because with a hundred dollar note you can buy things.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say you are all rascals. You do not know. If I say, the government may arrest me that I am infusing people in a different way. But that is the fact.

Harikeśa: So a government's duty would be to abolish this false standard of money, and then automatically...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Government's only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax: "Whatever I produce, take one fourth." Finish. All taxes. If I don't produce, there is no tax. That's all. That is the business between the government and the public. That's all.

Harikeśa: If the public are giving like one quarter of a perishable item, what does the government do with that? Let's say they were growing some vegetables, so they give one quarter of that to the government. What would the government do with that? They've got so many tons of vegetables.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: And everybody is taken care of, because they are growing it.

Prabhupāda: After all, vegetable will be eaten by somebody. So let government distribute there. Vegetable, grains, fruits, milk, ghee, yogurt, natural produce--they will be used by somebody. The government may store and distribute, those who are in need. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maybe somebody is only producing gold or gold plates, or somebody is producing something that isn't food. So he would give that to the government.

Prabhupāda: Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, śūdras who are doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūdras, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government--"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry: "Oh, all right." He declares war.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.

Harikeśa: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnāśrama-dharma is the only thing that will work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consicous government means Vedic government.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all, the government is cheating. He is giving me paper in the name of money, and forcing me to accept it.

Harikeśa: That seems to be the root cause of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Government is taking labor from you. You ask, "If you pay me three hundred dollars, then I shall work." "All right, I shall give you. Work." Then what is that three hundred? I print and pay you, and you rascal, you accept it, three hundred dollars. What is that three hundred dollars for government? Printing press. And you are so rascal, "Yes, I have got now three hundred dollars." This is going on. This is artificial inflation. Why there is inflation? Now you have got three hundred dollars without any hard labor. And when you go to purchase--I haven't got three hundred dollars; you have got--"All right, I shall pay this price." So price is increased because the seller will see: "Who pays me large price?" So you have got unnecessary money. You offer him large price. So I am poor man; I could not purchase. This is going on.

Harikeśa: There was once a few plots exposed, how some governments were ruined because foreign governments were printing up money just like their money, and shipping it in.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have seen it. I have seen it during last wartime. One Chinese man was coming to one of my friends, my business friend. So he would give, immediately coming, a bunch of notes, maybe ten thousand.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian notes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And a list of goods. He was his purchasing agent. So that bunch of notes was printed in China. You see? And he brings it and gives to a merchant here, and he gives him real goods, and he takes it out. This is inflation.

Devotee (2): Could he spend that money?

Prahupada: Yes. I print ten thousand dollars' worth currency note, and I give you, and I take you, actual goods from you, anywhere.

Harikeśa: The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing, they will offer you, "You want coins or paper currency?" So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gold coins.

Prabhupāda: Yes, gold, silver, whatever you want. That was the... Now this is stopped. You can not ask now gold coins and silver coins. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. Where is honesty?

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in South Africa they have a coin called the Krugerrand. And one rand is worth one hundred cents, one rand of paper money. But one rand gold is worth about seventy-eight rand.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): It's constantly going up and down, the price. Hundred and eight.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here is the car, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Everything mismanaged, cheating.

Harikeśa: So until the top man is Kṛṣṇa conscious, this cheating will basically continue.

Prabhupāda: Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings. The minister, the secretaries, the under-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on.

Harikeśa: They can pay them with their phony money.

Prabhupāda: And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That's all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, "All right, give me an application." And after six months' reminding, he will say, "No, it is not possible."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That's a fact. Then he will put his son there.

Prabhupāda: All rogues and thieves.

Harikeśa: So actually it is not possible to change the...

Prabhupāda: Change--if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Harikeśa: But the system itself is defective. How can...

Prabhupāda: No, the defective will be correct when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical.

Harikeśa: Let's say somebody is a minister...

Prabhupāda: Anybody.

Harikeśa: ...but his occupation is cheating.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business.

Harikeśa: But he has to stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rājarṣi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.

Harikeśa: So then gradually it will become the varṇāśrama, with the one central head.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: So we don't try to make a revolutionary system.

Prabhupāda: This is revolution.

Harikeśa: We try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand. (break) (in car) ...perfect philosophy.

Harikeśa: Your method is also the perfect method, the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and... Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I am simply putting them for modern man's understanding. That's all.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand, they think, "Dogmatic." It is not dogmatic. Most scientific.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they're all dull-brained. Satisfied with a few scraps, work like dogs. Would you like to walk here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Where?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This place is okay?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very close to the temple.

Harikeśa: Nobody plays golf that early in the morning?

Prabhupāda: (break)...they have to manage, and the vaiśyas will produce, and brāhmaṇa will give the brain. Then the society will be peace... And at the present moment these śūdras, they are, by artificial votes, they are becoming the brain of the society. How it can be happy? The rascals, they are voted to the legislative assembly, and they are passing every day law which is never perfect. This is going on.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stopgap measures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They create problem, then they try to solve it.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of our life members in Newcastle, a town between Durban and Johannesburg... The city council, they've decided they want to build a road right where his house is. He just built new house. Now they're going to tear it down, so then he has to build another house.

Prabhupāda: Just see. To punish him? (pause) Just see, so much loads of books. He's feeling unhappy, and what he is learning? To become hippie. That's all.

Harikeśa: He's learning to reject it.

Prabhupāda: From the childhood he's supplied so many books, and when he is young man, he is hippie. That's all. Instead of becoming brahmacārī, devotee, he is drunkard, he's drug addicted. That's all. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 October 16, 1975, Johannesburg                                                    411201

Reporter: Yes, I will. But I want to know what will you tell the people.

Prabhupāda: These things in different way, that "Come to your pure knowledge and make your plan. Then you will be happy. And if your basic principle is wrong, then whatever plan you make, it is useless."

Reporter: Yes. But, you see, the thing that worries me is that how do people begin to understand that their basic principle might be wrong?

Prabhupāda: Just as one goes to a school and gradually he understands what is one, what is two, what is three, what is "two plus two equal to four," how to place. It is a question of learning, education.

Reporter: Yes, but this doesn't effect the ordinary man in the street, Your Grace.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: This doesn't effect the masses.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The mass of people, he says it doesn't effect them.

Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha. Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men--"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people--the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow.

                                                                                                                                                                        411216

Prabhupāda: (break) You have done good because you are waiting for somebody's decision. So the decision-maker can change. Otherwise so many people are working so hard day and night; he is not getting even sufficient food. And another man, without working, he is getting so much money. How it is possible? Hm? So God is not an instrument of your whims. He is fully independent. That is God. Agatan gatan patiyase.(?) By His different energy He can..., does something which is impossible to be done. Take for example myself. I went to United States, unknown country, without any friend, without any hope, simply on theory (chuckles) that "I shall go and preach there," and with this expectation also, that "As soon as I shall ask them to give up all these habits, they will ask me to go away." (laughs) So in the face of so many odds and uncertainty, I went there, simply depending on my spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, with this hope only, that "If they desire, everything can be done. But otherwise there is no hope. I am going there, hopeless, just to make an experiment. My other Godbrothers, they failed. All right, Guru Mahārāja asked me. In the beginning I did not do. Let me do it in this old age." So it became surprisingly success. Business started with forty rupees, and now we have got four crores. Where is that business in the material world, that a man started business with forty rupees and he has got four crores within ten years? Not only money, but also fame, respect. What do these kings and president or minister get respect?

 

Morning Walk                                        October 17, 1975, Johannesburg                                                     411277

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it that in the modern day good people, they don't come into public office? Good people. In previous ages there were rājarṣis, great kings, very pious kings. Why is it that only rogues are aspiring today?

Prabhupāda: Because the democracy. You will not get vote. As soon as you become honest man in the public office, nobody will be obedient to you, and it will be impossible for him to execute any... You see? The bank manager in Delhi--he was my friend--that "I am afraid of this union. If I press them to do something, they will immediately topsy-turvy the whole management." Bank manager said. "So I am afraid of the workers' union," he told me. So therefore good men, they do not go to this political post because they know they will not be able to do anything good. He will be surrounded by all rogues. Nobody will execute his order.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the future in Kali-yuga looks very bleak.

Prabhupāda: Very, very black. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇ gacchanti giri-kānanam. People, general people, will be so much disgusted that they will be obliged to give up family and home and go to the forest, being disappointed: "Now I cannot manage. Let me go away."

Harikeśa: That's predestined.

Prabhupāda: Yes, predestined.

Harikeśa: But that can all change in a minute.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that can be changed only by... Therefore we are... "Go giri-kānanam, but take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." Vānaṁ gato yad harim āśrayet. "Go, leave your, this so-called family, home, and go to the forest and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. "That is the best thing in life. If you want to be free from anxiety, give up this so-called family life. Go to the forest and take shelter of Lord Kṛṣṇa." That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's advice. Don't try to adjust it. It will not be possible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially in Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Especially in Kali-yuga. So we are offering them shelter that "In this age you are not accustomed to go to the forest. It will be more inconvenient. Come to our center and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your problems will be solved." This is our mission. Everyone is faced with problem. Otherwise why there is majority of suicide? Everyone is faced with problem.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's best to go this way.

Harikeśa: Oh, somebody hitting.

Prabhupāda: Shilling?

Harikeśa: No, they are playing golf.

Prabhupāda: Oh. How persistent life is this. His main body is cut into pieces; still, he's struggling to exist. He has got some attachment--"I shall live here, stand here for ten thousand years." This is māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can a man's intelligence be rectified? If intelligence is the...

Prabhupāda: This hari-kīrtana, chant. Somehow or other, induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything all right. By flattering, by soliciting, by giving him prasāda, by elevating him, that "You are the best man in the world"--in this way inducing him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then he will be recitified. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There is no other way. He is ruined, and the more the Kali-yuga advances, he becomes more and more ruined. All other attempts will failure. Don't you see in your country the LSD-addicted hippies? Government spends so much money to recitify them--failure. But as soon as they come to our camp, immediately success. How it is possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By this chanting...

Prabhupāda: That is the amazement. That is the amazement of Professor Judah and all others, that "How it is happening? There is something in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only from your Godbrothers. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You don't like the sunshine so much.

Prabhupāda: Only at the time of massage. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...Vedic statement or is it just preference?

Prabhupāda: No, that is my personal. During winter it is pleasing, of course, sunshine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...walk this way. There's a ravine here. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, it always seems that there is some kind of inspiration for spiritual life there. Is that simply mental concoction, or is it actually a fact, the land itself?

Prabhupāda: Land. It is the influence of the land. Just like Vṛndāvana. Whatever you may be, you stay here, you become spiritualized. Simply you stay there. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it possible to reform a person against their will?

Prabhupāda: No, not possible. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...sign, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that someone is actually having change in heart?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the sign that someone is actually having change in heart?

Prabhupāda: By his action. (break) ...kasipu tried to make Prahlāda atheist. He failed. And Prahlāda tried to make his father theist. He failed. Don't you see?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So unless one agrees you cannot turn him. It is not possible. Five-years'-old boy, staunch devotee, and the powerful Hiraṇyakaśipu, father, who is threatening with his life and so many ways he tried that "You become atheist, godless. Otherwise I shall kill you." He did not agree. And similarly, the son also solicited the father that "You have got so much power by the grace of God. Why you are becoming atheist?" Both of them could not turn to their side. Prahlāda remained Prahlāda, and Hiraṇyakaśipu remained Hiraṇyakaśipu. (break) ...can expect that without agreeing, conceding, one can be reformed. No, that is not possible. Impossible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not simply by rubber stamp.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. (break)

Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore."

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi praṇipātena. The first term is "surrender," praṇipāta. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         October 18, 1975, Johannesburg                                                  4411323

Prabhupāda: ...poor people have to stand in queue. It is a mostly...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) They use this argument against us, that the Vedic culture was most solidly founded in India.

Prabhupāda: But you have, I mean to say, curbed down. This rascal civilization, they could not take the Western civilization, and they lost their own civilization. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture. You understand?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go--it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Exploit their own people.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied because they pay tax. "Never mind. The workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is... (break) ...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is true.

Prabhupāda: And materially advanced for committing suicide. Am I right or wrong?

Devotee (1): Right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that if one wants to increase the material standard of living, then they should increase also sex life. And this is what they are doing in India today.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without sex life one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex life, then you will be materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex life, and here in the Western countries, how to increase sex life. They are eating meat, eggs, drinking wine. These things will enthuse sex life. And as soon as you get very satisfactory sex life, you become enthused to work hard. Therefore karmīs, marriage is necessary, because without sex life they cannot work. And for jïānīs, yogis, bhaktas, sex life prohibited. Actually they do not know the science of life, this Western civilization. Their life means this body. Their life means this body. That means they do not know what is life. And as soon as the life is gone, the body is there--they cannot explain. This is their ignorance. Why the life is stopped? And they are very proud of advancement. And bring in life again. That they cannot do. That means the whole basic principle is ignorance. Mūòha nābhijānāti. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jïānā vicetasaḥ. Eh? Then?

Harikeśa: Rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caivam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Because they have taken the shelter of prakṛti, material nature, bewildered and captivated, they do not know what is the aim of life--moghāśā, "all baffled." Mogha karmāṇam: "Whatever they are doing, that will be useless." Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jïānā: there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So with their advancement of knowledge...

Prabhupāda: What is the advancement of knowledge?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are increasing sex life, and actually the advancement of knowledge should be decreasing sex life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child-killing, and then contraceptive method--whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements: take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. (laughter) And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene? The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking: "This is all, everything." This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips, attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking, and now they are dressing naked. They are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavda-gita lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children. Therefore they are... Restriction. Allowed, but with great restriction under religious rules and regulation and so many things, garbhādāna. Then the first principle is, even it is taken for begetting child, it is not secret.

Garbhādāna-saṁskāra. There should be a function, all the brāhmaṇas and relatives should come, and there will be ceremony, and everyone will know that "This man is going to now sex, have sex for begetting children." This is ceremony, not secretly like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs also, they do not do secretly. A human being do it secretly and do not want the botheration. Therefore their scientific advancement means how to kill the child, how to make abortion, how to take contraceptive pills, how to distribute them, how allow the children, "Yes, you go on, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered." Yes. Why not stop it, botheration? That you cannot, because animals. Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇòutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober--"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"--brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit--it is legal--then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so

on--suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings: you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take of." "No, again, again." Once you have committed sinful activities, killing the child in the womb, "All right, stop it now." "No, again." Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. He's never satisfied. He knows that there is suffering behind this. Still, he'll not stop it. Therefore a sober man... A man should be educated to become sober, that "Let me tolerate this itching, that's all. I save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become rascal and more rascal and more rascal and suffer, is that civilization? Simply to make the people rascal and suffer and commit suicide? Just tell them that he has created this civilization that suffer and become rascal. That's all. Unless you become rascal, how you will suffer? So keep them rascal and suffer. This is nature's arrangement, that "You living entity, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. All right, come under my control. Be rascal, remain rascal and suffer." Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā. Why she is doing that? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will go on suffering like this." This is the nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. But the rascal... Because he is rascal, he does not know that "I am under the full control of prakṛti, material nature, and her business is to keep me rascal and suffer." And they are advanced in education.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that this so-called suffering is actually pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Go on pleasure. Who checks you? Enjoy this pleasure. If everything is pleasure, then why you take the counteractive process? Why do you want to kill child? Pleasure? Why do you take contraceptive method if it is pleasure? That is the proof how much rascal they are. Mūòha nābhijānāti. Try to understand why Kṛṣṇa has spoken so many times, "mūòhas, māyayāpahṛta-jïānā." Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that. There must be some meaning. Human civilization means to give relief to the human being, comfortable life, not to repeat the same business like the animals. That is human civilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We see practically that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We have little anxieties simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach them, tell them the truth. Therefore we have got little anxiety. Otherwise there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals--and we have to do that, who have taken this mission--therefore little anxiety there. That is also not very much. But you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not exaggeration. Eh? Or you have got different opinion?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Hm? What do you think? Do you agree?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūòhas.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our verdict is final: "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?" Stopped. (laughter) "Come on, any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved as rascals." Yesterday, last night, I told that the aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajïā-vādāṁś: "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is fool, rascal. He does not know what is the real problem of life." Nobody said that "Why you are calling everyone rascals?" In Montreal some Bengali gentleman said, "Swamiji, you are using very strong word, 'fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And "No, this is the only word, that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word to be used." (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal.

Prabhupāda: A rascal, that's all. And they are trying to maintain this body, although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot. You are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still, they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Which is impossible, cannot be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? "Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days." These are their foolish. They will never say "No, it is impossible." Still, they will support their rascal endeavors. (aside:) No, that's all right.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is another sign of their rascaldom, that they don't accept that all of their endeavors to maintain the body will be defeated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are seeing, experiencing. History never says that any man has become immortal, even Hiranyakasipu, and what to speak of these small demons. A great demon like Hiranyakasipu, he could not, and what to speak of these tiny demons? One kick is sufficient to kill them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never say that.

Prabhupāda: The European lady will never take a burden on head like this, but Indians, they do. Even respectable family woman, they also carry on the head. You will find many Gujarati. Simple living is natural.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is it that the Europeans especially, they have become the vanguard of rascal culture?

Prabhupāda: Because they are rākṣasas. They are eating meat and drinking wine and illicit sex. Rākṣasa civilization. Hiraṇyakaśipu means... Hiraṇya means gold, and kaśipu means soft bed. To learn, this is rākṣasa civilization. They are searching after soft bed and gold mine, hiraṇya.

Devotee (2): We have some guests.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. How do you know we have come here?

Indian (3): Well, Kṛṣṇa's grace showed me you were here.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That... Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) If any question, we are discussing so many things.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you have any questions?

Indian (3): This... We've arrived from home, you know. We were at the temple and Bhattasauri says, "Swamiji has gone for a walk at the golf course," so it was quite convenient to find us here. We just rushed up. I said, "Let me rush in to join the walk."

Prabhupāda: So you can repeat what I have spoken. They can hear.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, He describes so...

Prabhupāda: No, you can play this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay, play back. Comes in handy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa plays back tape recording:)

Prabhupāda: "They are trying to maintain this body although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot, you are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām."

Harikeśa: (aside:) The car is there.

Prabhupāda: No, we shall walk. (tape recording continues)

Prabhupāda: "It is impossible. It will not be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? 'Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days.' These are their foolish. They will never say, 'No, it is impossible.' Still, they will support their rascal endeavors." Modern advancement of science, what actually they have done? We are talking on that point. Simply misleading. The Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has sung one nice... (tape recorded section accidentally plays) "eating meat and drinking wine." (Prabhupāda and devotees laugh at interruption. Harikeśa apologizes) That... He says, jada vidy saba māyāra vaibhava. Jada vidyā means material education, the so-called material science. So jada vidyā. Vidyā means education, so this expansion of knowledge means expansion of the influence of māyā. Jada vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava. And the result is tomāra bhajane bādhā. People will forget God. With the advancement of so-called material science or material knowledge, the result will be that people will forget God. And then next, next is anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya. "This material world, which is temporary, where we cannot stay, we are already captivated, but this advancement of material knowledge will make me more captive, and I shall work just like an ass." That's all. Now, whether he is right or wrong, tell me. His charge is that advancement of material education is advancement of the influence of material energy, and if you say that "What is the wrong there?" the wrong is that we are already rascals, and this education will make me more rascal. Anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya. "I am already captivated in this temporary material world, and these things will make me more advanced to be captivated in this material world." Now this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. Now, if you don't like, tell what is the reason. Tell me. Material education... We are already captive under the laws of material nature, and the more we advance in material education, we'll be more and more rigidly captive. So this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. What is your answer? Can anyone refute Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, that he is wrong?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People may argue though that without education we can't even read the knowledge that Bhaktivinoda Öhākura is speaking. How to read Bengali or Sanskrit or English or anything like this?

Prabhupāda: That is real education. We want that you learn from Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, you learn from Vyāsadeva, you learn from Nārada. But why you are learning from Freud, from Darwin and such rascals? Education means you should learn from a person who is authorized, who is without mistake, without illusion, who does not cheat, just like we are learning from Kṛṣṇa. That is education. And if you learn from rascals and fools, then what is that education? Education means to learn from the learned person. But if you are learning from a rascal and fool, then what is your education? Education required, but we require what is actually education, which is not cheating. But we are being educated, being cheated. We are working for this body, which I am not. Is that education or it is cheating? If you say, "I am taking my interest," I'll say "I am taking water; I wash daily my shirt and coat." And that, is that knowledge? And what about you? Your food? "I don't care for that. I wash my coat and shirt daily." Is that education? You keep yourself starving and you keep your coat and shirt very cleanse. Is that education? This is going on. Therefore people are restless. He is hungry. What he will do, his cars and this shirt and coat and big building? Why they are committing suicide? Because he is not happy. There is no food for the spirit soul, what he is actually. Is that education? That is not education. So Bhaktivinoda Öhākura is right when he says, jība ke karaye gādhā: "This material education means making people more and more asses." That's all. He is already ass because he's in this material world, and the so-called material education means keeping him in that condition more and more.

Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swamiji, then he starts off all over again?

Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ. You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.

 

Morning Walk                                         October 19, 1975, Johannesburg                                                    411399                                   

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cutting trees.

Prabhupāda: Because they are also living beings, so you cannot take their life unnecessarily. You are responsible. You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not. (break) ...cutting trees indiscriminately for manufacturing paper, some bundles of papers nobody reads. Every day...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They throw away.

Prabhupāda: They are publishing hundreds of thousands of copies for wasting, and for that paper, it requires so many lives.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever considered such things before.

Prahupada: No..., where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One with knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all. The test is whether he understands the spirit soul different from the body. If he does not understand he is animal, that's all. Maybe big animal, that is a different thing. Big or small, animal is animal.

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Indian man (1): Don't you think the people are lazy also?

Prabhupāda: Well, you are the same Indian. Why you are not lazy here? It is the government's policy or government's management. You see? To become lazy is the recommendation of the śāstra. To become lazy... It is a bad word, "lazy," but actually life means not to work very hard. That is real life. And to work hard for eating, that is animal life, that is not human life. Human life should be very peaceful, without any hard work, and cultivating spiritual knowledge. That is human life, not that, to work hard like hogs and dogs throughout the whole day for find out some stool, where it is. That is not human life. So people are being educated to work very hard. That is not human life. Therefore those who have got money, they build nice bungalow in a secluded place to live peacefully, to become lazy. Is it not?

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Perfection of life means ultimately you become lazy; you haven't got to work. That is perfection, they say. Otherwise why they get a cottage in a secluded place and live? All these Americans, they go weekend. They leave aside all working, they become tired, hard working, and they go. That is the intention, that you should live peaceful life, not working very hard. That is human life. Huh? Otherwise why they go outside the city at the weekend? Why do they go? Hm?

Indian man (1): They want rest, I suppose. They want rest.

Prabhupāda: So that means lazy.

Indian man (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rest means lazy; you don't work.

Indian man (1): If one works five days a week, you rest for two...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You have to work to become lazy. (laughter) That is another thing. But the goal is to become lazy. You work five days very hard just to become lazy for two days. That's all. So if you have got means to become seven days lazy, you'll prefer it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But I think people would... Most people would go crazy if they didn't have any work.

Prabhupāda: No, that means their life is not properly conducted. And therefore the word laziness has come. Laziness is not actually the word. Laziness means minimizing the bodily labor and engaged in spiritual work. If you ask people, "Please come to our temple," who is coming? Because he says, "I have no time." But we are not working hard. So real aim of life is to... In German, I think, or somewhere there is classification: "Lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool, and busy fool." So at the present moment (laughs) the whole world is full of busy fools. But the first-class man, he is lazy intelligent. Lazy and intelligent, that is first-class man. And second-class man, busy intelligent. And third class means lazy fool and fourth class means busy fool. When the fools are busy... Just like nowadays they are busy but they are fools. Like monkey, he is very busy. You see? And they prefer to be generation of monkey, busy fool. That's all. Fools, when he is busy, he is simply creating havoc. That's all. Better... Lazy fool is better than him because he will not create so much harm, but this busy fool will simply create harm. And first class-man is lazy intelligent. He knows the value of life, and soberly he is thinking. Just like all our great saintly persons. They were living in the forest, meditation, tapasya, and writing books. All, you will find, lazy intelligent. They are first-class men.

Indian man (1): Not like the monkey jumping from one ...

Prabhupāda: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool. That's all.

Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: The second class.

Indian man (1): How does he behave?

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām. The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jïānam vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in śāstra and Bhagavān. Jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam. These things are recommended, not that a brāhmaṇa should become very busy whole day and night for getting food. So śāstra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God. But they are busy fool. They do not understand the God's arrangement. Only for food they are busy whole day and night like cats and dogs. Now this land is there. You can... Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food. They will grow hammer, manufacturing it. You see? Tire tube, then atom bomb, then this and that. They are busy. They are busy fool. Actually they are fools, and they are very busy. Everyone is busy. There are so many parts in the motorcar, three thousand part, and they are busy in manufacturing three thousand parts of motor parts. So everyone is busy in producing things unwanted. But they have created a society in such a way that they have to do that.

Indian man (1): Otherwise they think that they not economically progressing.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: You grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tire and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Kṛṣṇa never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." Why don't you do that? That means fools. After all, you have to eat. So you are not busy in growing your food, but you are busy in producing tire tubes, motor cars, stools and instruments. Then how you will get your food? Where is your economic? First economic is, first necessity, you must eat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with the tire tubes and nuts and bolts they can make a tractor. And the tractor can help produce food, they think, much faster.

Prabhupāda: No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor.

Devotee (4): It will work.

Prabhupāda: But you want to eat them, so you must find out...

Indian man (1): Some other means.

Prabhupāda: Replacement. That's it.

Devotee (4): But man has to progress.

Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense progress? To become busy fool? That is progress? Do you think it is progress to become busy fool? This is not progress. The progress means lazy intelligent, that he will not have to work but he will get all the comforts automatically. That is wanted. That is progress. Actually nobody wants to work but he is obliged to work because his necessities are not sufficiently met. Therefore he has to work. He has created such society that he has to work hard.

Indian man (1): Some of them wants to sit in the office and order the directors, "Do this, do this." They want to be on the head. They want to have peace there, but while they are sitting on the chair, they haven't got any peace.

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly--we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern--then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men--lazy intelligent; second-class men--busy intelligent; and third-class men--lazy fool; and fourth-class men--busy fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we find śūdras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.

Indian man (1): Is this still possible, Swamiji? Is there still possibility that that can happen?

Prabhupāda: At any moment, provided you agree. But you do not agree. Nobody is prepared to become a brāhmaṇa. Everyone wants to become a śūdra. This is the modern civilization.

Indian man (1): But can a person become a brāhmaṇa?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Why not?

Indian man (1): Doesn't it depend...

Prabhupāda: It is training. How they are become brāhmaṇa? According to śāstra, they are coming from mleccha, yavana. How they have become brāhmaṇa? More than brāhmaṇa. But they are abiding by the rules. You see? They are accustomed to eat meat from the very birth. They have given up. And if we request Indians, they will not give up, although their forefathers never ate meat.

Indian man (1): Does it say somewhere in the Bhagavad-gītā that we shouldn't eat meat?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Ahara-śuddhi. There are three kinds, four kinds of ahara: sattvika, rājasika, tamasika. Everything is there. The classification of ahara. Meat is tamasikāhara, fourth class. It is not first class.

Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems?

Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām. And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.

Indian man (1): The purity must be there.

Prabhupāda: (break) Yes. In the whole world you won't find qualified brāhmaṇas. And they are required for guiding the human society. So therefore the human society is in chaotic condition. There is no guidance. The śūdras, they make things by vote. And what they'll vote? They're all rascals. What is the value of their votes? So that is going on all over the world. Fools and rascals they vote, and another rascal is selected. And after some time--"Oh, he is not suitable. Get him down," Nixon, and replace another fool, rascal. That's all.

Indian man (1): That is continuously going on.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Going on. The democracy means the selector, the elector, they are all fools and rascals. So how he will select a person who is not rascal?

Indian man (1): Is it possible that every man's life is directed by God, and you're born to do certain things, and you come to be prime minister or something?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is something like that. But I am talking of, if you depend on God, then why do you keep elections? You are opportunist. Sometimes you take shelter of God and sometimes of your election power. If you are so firm believer in God, then why election? Let God elect. Why you take part in election? Huh? Let God elect the prime minister. Why you are busy in giving vote? (break) God elected Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Hm? His plan was that Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira should be king, not Duryodhana. So He killed all the Duryodhana's party and selected Yudhiṣṭhira: "Sit down here." That is God's election. So why you elect? Depend on God.

Indian man (1): And that comes through lack of spiritual knowledge, Swamiji?

Prabhupāda: Yes, no knowledge. No spiritual knowledge means he is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ. This is the final verdict. One who has no spiritual knowledge, he is no better than these cows and dogs. That's all. Therefore guidance of the brāhmaṇa required. Why the brāhmaṇas are selected to guide? Because they have got full vijïāna, jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam, therefore.

Indian man (1): It is very necessary for the brāhmaṇas. We must have brāhmaṇas in the society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are very intelligent. Therefore we are creating some brāhmaṇas. We are not creating the busy fools. No.

Devotee (5): Does that mean that the more one gets control over his senses, he becomes more lazy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One who is servant of his senses, what is intelligence? That is dog's intelligence. As soon as he sees one lady dog, and ten dogs come here and begin to smell vagina. Is that intelligence? So the human society is like that. They're smelling the vagina of the girls, that's all. Everyone is doing that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the lazy intelligent are jïāna-vijïāna?

Prabhupāda: Jïāna-vijïānam, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not sleep. Not sleep.

Prabhupāda: No. This is the term used, "lazy," but real term is dhīra. The Sanskrit word is dhīra. And everything... Just like high court judge, he is dhīra. He is... Before giving judgment, he thinks three days, silently. That is your... That is not laziness. His brain is working how to give nice judgment. That is required. But because we do not understand what is dhīra, we think that "This man is sitting idly and drawing four thousand rupees." Because we know, "Unless one is active like dog, running there, running there, he is not a busy man." And he cannot appreciate the work of the author, the work of the high court judge. They think they are lazy. Therefore he's using the lazy, but lazy and intelligent. Otherwise he is not lazy; he is dhīra. The word is dhīra. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Unless one is dhīra, one cannot understand that there is soul within the body. (break) Kṛṣṇa uses this word, dhīras tatra na muhyati. One has to become dhīra, sober, silent. Then he can understand. Not these busy dogs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But Arjuna is fighting for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was different. Now you jump over to another. Why?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra

means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.

Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Then it will be all right. (break) Unnecessarily.

Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, at least they think by playing golf, they can relax.

Prabhupāda: That is also another business. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowl... Because they are fools, so again busy in pushing on a ball. That's all.

Harikeśa: We should go quickly. They're not going to stop.

Indian man (1): They won't stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've already both hit the ball. Now walk three hundred yards and hit it again.

Prabhupāda: Busy fools, creating foolishness, and this is aristocracy; a rich man's engagement.

Indian man (1): Yes. He can afford all this.

Indian man (3): So how long this thing will continue now, Swamiji, the materialistic progress, the way they are carrying on today?

Prabhupāda: If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, it will continue. You take advice of Kṛṣṇa; it will be all right. The disease is there; the treatment is there. If you take treatment, the disease will disappear. If you don't take, the disease will continue and you will die. That's all.

Indian man (1): So eventually destruction can come to this earth?

Prabhupāda: It is already come, but because you are not intelligent, you do not see it. It is already come. Who is happy? (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         October 20, 1975, Johannesburg                                                    411533

Prabhupāda: They kept dead body frozen?

Harikeśa: It hasn't become very popular.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why? The scientists' failure?

Harikeśa: Maybe people don't believe it.

Prabhupāda: No, it is made by the scientists. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...behind the frozen body was that if someone had an incurable disease, they thought that they could suspend the life by freezing it, and then, when they found the cure for the disease, they would unfreeze him or thaw him out and cure him of his disease so that he could live again.

Prabhupāda: And these childish activities are taken as scientific advancement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there a Vedic definition of science?

Prabhupāda: Vijïāna. Jïāna-vijïāna. (break) ...not this science, experimental. That is not science. Vedic knowledge is science.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So there is no experimental science in Vedic culture.

Prabhupāda: Experimental science is condemned. What you will make, ex... You are imperfect. What is the value of your experiment? Therefore it is rejected. Whatever you'll do, that is imperfect. First of all you become perfect; then you make experiment. But you are... You remain imperfect, and you making experiment. What is the value of it? (break) ...is no experimental knowledge. All established truth. That is vijïāna, or science.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Established truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The sun rises on the eastern side; that is established truth. You cannot change it. And that is vijïāna. Man dies. This is established truth. You cannot make any change by experimental knowledge. This is vijïāna. Nṛpa nirnita: "It is already settled." In the Vedic knowledge there is no such thing as laboratory or experiment, discovery, nothing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People blindly would accept that cow dung was purified without having to test it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you make experiment; you will find it all right. So we save time. (break) ...no experiment. (break) ...experiment has become successful? Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they've cured certain diseases by experimentation.

Prabhupāda: That is success? You stop disease. What is this, "cure disease"? Malaria, if it is not here, it is somewhere there. And if I am not suffering from malaria, I am suffering from syphilis. So what is this cure, experiment? Disease must be there. So you stop it. Then it is success.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it is not possible to stop disease.

Prabhupāda: No. How it is possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it worthwhile to try to prolong life?

Prabhupāda: It is also condemned. Prolonged life... Suppose you live hundred years and a tree lives five thousand years, ten thousand years. Then what is the use of prolonging life, life like this? Is that very good life?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Standing in one place for ten thousand years? Why should you prolong your life? For suffering? You are suffering, that is your problem, so what is the use of prolonging your life? This is foolishness. What do you gain by prolonging life if you are suffering? Stop suffering. That is wanted. How you can stop suffering? With suffering, prolonging life, what is the benefit?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just means more, longer suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And even if you prolong life, how long you'll prolong? There are trees. They are thousand times prolonging than your life. In... What is called? San Francisco, the Golden...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Redwood trees.

Prabhupāda: Redwood trees. One redwood, already seven thousand years old, they told me. So what is the benefit, seven thousand years standing in one place, very long? Hm? What is the benefit? You are trying to prolong life. Very good idea. But what is the use of prolonging life while suffering? One side, you are trying to prolong life; the other side, for acute suffering, one is committing suicide. So why this contradictory proposal?

Harikeśa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner...

Prabhupāda: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, "I am happy," it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is afraid of death. They don't like the idea of dying. Put if off.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then you prolong life is... Make some understand. Can go this side?

Harikeśa: So it's not possible that anyone's happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy.

Prabhupāda: No. One who thinks he is happy, he is number one fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is searching after material happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is no happiness.

Harikeśa: What about if one is in the mode of goodness? Maybe one or two...

Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness... If he thinks that he is happy, then he is fool. The mode of goodness means one must know that we cannot be happy here. That is mode of goodness. And if he thinks, "I am happy," then he is not in mode of goodness. He's in darkness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So everyone at present is trying to become happy by this or that activity.

Prabhupāda: They are fools, rascals.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So if everyone accepts that there is no happiness at all to be found in this world...

Prabhupāda: Then they are intelligent.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then what to do?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad-vijïānārtham... Therefore you go to guru. Go to Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Kṛṣṇa consciousness outside your movement?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Kṛṣṇa conscious outside your movement.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.

Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The community means many devotees.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if there is no happiness and one recognizes it, then he goes to guru.

Prabhupāda: Then he must... Just like Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa because he was disturbed. So that is the point where one must approach a guru, how to become happy. That is intelligence. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā: "Now inquire about real happiness."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So one who is looking for material happiness...

Prabhupāda: He's a fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...it is very difficult for them to approach guru.

Prabhupāda: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool.

Harikeśa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying.

Prabhupāda: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool.

Harikeśa: They all tell me what a great time...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that "This is a place of suffering," and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they say that they can cure disease, but it's impossible.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The disease is suffering, and this place is suffering, so where is the question of curing disease? Kṛṣṇa consciousness means intelligence. We are guided by Kṛṣṇa, so there is no trouble. Everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And as soon as you make experiment like fools and rascal, then you are doomed.

Harikeśa: "Well, my guru, Meher Baba, tells me, 'Don't worry. Be happy.' "

Prabhupāda: Then he is another fool, another rascal, mūòha.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He didn't even speak. He didn't speak for so many years.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Meher Baba.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was your guru? (laughs)

Harikeśa: He says, "Don't worry. Be happy, and just love me."

Prabhupāda: Just see. And he died of motor accident.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He died in motor accident?

Harikeśa: Yes. He was killed by a car.

Prabhupāda: "Don't worry, I am going to die by motor accident. Don't worry. Don't worry. I am going to die by motor accident." All these rasals, they have misled the whole world. What is this raised ground?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is where they hit the golf ball from, raised up. This is the men's teeing part. And the ladies' teeing part, they tee off from here, little bit shorter.

Prabhupāda: No equal right.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No equal rights.

Harikeśa: Well, all the swamis are saying that all you have to do is just be happy. It's just a state of being. You just have to think happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also say, but you must know how to get happiness. That is required. Happiness is the aim of everyone. But how to get happiness, permanent, that is knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a devotee seeking mental happiness as well? Is the devotee searching after...

Prabhupāda: A devotee does not seek anything except service of Kṛṣṇa. He does not seek anything separate. He simply wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Anyābhilāṣita śūnyam. Making zero all other desires, that, he is devotee. If he is going to Kṛṣṇa for some happiness, he is not a devotee.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmīs, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn't they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today people are making money and trying to enjoy material life...

Prabhupāda: Who is making money? Who is making money?

Harikeśa: The government. It is printing it up.

Prabhupāda: Do you think everyone is making money?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's a big illusion? It's a big illusion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses. That's all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he's working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: But he is thinking; therefore he is getting fat. You generally find the pigs are fatty because they think, "Oh, I am very happy." Yes. One man gets fatty when he thinks that "I am very happy." You know that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: This is psychology. When he thinks, "I am very happy," he gets fatty.

Harikeśa: But if I think I'm happy, isn't that enough?

Prabhupāda: They think. That is another thing. But you do not know what is happiness. These rascals, they do not think that what is happiness. Suppose I have arranged for so-called happiness. Then I am going to die also. Who will enjoy this?

Harikeśa: But I'm not worried about it.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that you are a rascal. "Fools rush in where angels dare not." That is the proof. The hog is thinking, "I am very happy." Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that "I am very happy. I am getting fatty." (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?

Prabhupāda: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, "I am happy." That is the proof that he's a rascal. (break)

Harikeśa: Well, we can admit that we're not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there's no distress, how can I be happy?

Prabhupāda: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness. (break)

Harikeśa: A sandtrap. This is where the ball goes in and it's very difficult to hit it out of there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: So you're not supposed to hit it in there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: It makes it more difficult.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Śrīla Prabhupāda, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to.

Prabhupāda: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that's all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that's all. There is no religion in the world except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All bogus.

Prabhupāda: He's another big bogus man. The Pope's assistant died in the prostitute's house.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Paris.

Harikeśa: The Pope comes out on his balcony, and thousands of people cheer and scream.

Prabhupāda: The same thing, that small animals praising the big animals, that's all. At least they say something about God. They are not zero, but they have no clear conception of God.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is thinking that their religion is the best. Even the Christian may be ignorant, even the Jew may be ignorant, anyone--doesn't matter--they're thinking that theirs is the best.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. First of all... Therefore we have to understand from Bhāgavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we'll serve God.

Prabhupāda: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very imperfect understanding.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...you were with Meher Baba?

Harikeśa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. (laughter) I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi.

Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?

Harikeśa: Thirty-five dollars. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And what was the mantra?

Harikeśa: "Aing."

Prabhupāda: "Aing"? That's all?

Harikeśa: That's all. And they told me, "Never tell anybody else, 'cause if you tell somebody else the whole thing is ruined."

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are also ruined? No, he is also ruined? No?

Harikeśa: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Everything ruined means he also ruined.

Harikeśa: For you.

Prabhupāda: No. Yes, that Maharsi Baba. Because he gave the mantra, so if you disclose it, everything is ruined including himself. He is also ruined.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can't sell any more mantras.

Harikeśa: When I joined the movement I met many other devotees who also had mantras. So I said, "What were your mantras?" They were telling us we all had different mantras. And everyody had the same mantras. It was the same thing. Everyone had the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Just see how he was cheating you.

Indian man (2): I purchased mine.(?)

Prabhupāda: This is such a great cheater, and he has opened university? Just see.

Harikeśa: I used to ask, "What is the goal of all this?" And they would always say, "You can't ask that now. You won't understand. In the future we'll tell you."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "After we have your money."

Harikeśa: They keep it very mystical so that you keep thinking in the future you'll get something.

Prabhupāda: The same as the scientists, same.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda, by your mercy we've been able to see that the whole world is simply cheaters and cheated.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eucalyptus trees?

Prabhupāda: This is eucalyptus.

Harikeśa: Not like in San Francisco, though, Los Angeles. Once they gave the Maharishi four big pills of LSD.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Harikeśa: His disciples gave him, Maharishi, four big pills of LSD.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maharishi?

Harikeśa: Yes. And he just stood there and said nothing happened. So everybody said, "This is proof that he's already there."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Because he just stood there and said, "Nothing is happening to me," everybody has figured that he is already there.

Prabhupāda: "There" means where?

Harikeśa: At the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: Hell. (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (break) Anyone who is thinking that they're happy is simply a rascal. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...saying the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Neither vice versa also. There is no intermarriage permitted here. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                           October 21, 1975, Johannesburg                                                  411700

Prabhupāda: ...He used to collect all these things for guru's cooking. Kṛṣṇa went to collect with Sudāmā Vipra, and all of a sudden, there was cloud and rain, and there was too much water, and they lived upon a tree for the whole night. Then Sāndīpani Muni, other students, came and rescued them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now we have to collect to pay the electricity bill.

Prabhupāda: These things are wasted. It can be utilized. The children, they'll gladly collect it. It will be like their sports. All the children will come and collect. Just see. Their energy is utilized, the nature's gift is utilized, and there is no expenditure.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice arrangment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) ...parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years?

Prabhupāda: Never see. Ten years? Twenty-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they criticize our gurukula that "This is inhuman, people sending their children away at such an early age, not seeing them."

Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.

Harikeśa: But they say the child in the womb is not living. They say it's not life yet. Only after it takes birth.

Prabhupāda: That is said by you. You, the tenth-class rascal, you say like that. No sane man says like that. Because you are a tenth-class rascal--you have no knowledge--you say like that. They are... The so-called scientists, they are tenth-class rascals.

Harikeśa: Until the child is moving there is no life.

Prabhupāda: Moving, it is not moving?

Harikeśa: No. It doesn't move until after seven months.

Prabhupāda: Then why the dead child cannot move, rascal?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's developing, it's growing. That's moving also.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if moving is not there, then the dead child is also not moving. Why he is not moving again?

Harikeśa: I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: A dead child comes; it is not moving. But does it come to movement again?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: He is another rascal. He takes so much time to answer. (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of the "devil citing scripture," Prabhupāda, is very common.

Prabhupāda: Devils, all devils.

Harikeśa: They wanted to write an article about this for BTG, and everybody was sitting around giving these examples.

Prabhupāda: Yes, think over. Write article. If there was no life who is at a certain stage in the womb, wherefrom the movement comes, if there was no life?

Harikeśa: They say it develops to the point...

Prabhupāda: But why it does not develop in a dead child, rascal? The same child, if it comes out dead, why the movement does not develop?

Harikeśa: Well, that one already developed properly and then died. That child already developed properly.

Prabhupāda: No, the process is the same. It was not moving. At a cetain stage it is moving. Similarly, if it is not moving, then wait for a certain stage; it will move. Why it is decomposed?

Harikeśa: But that dead child was moving and then died.

Prabhupāda: How it became dead, nonsense? The condition is the same, no movement. So how do you say "dead"? Why do you say "dead"? The distinction is it was not moving, and it is now not moving, so why do you call "dead"? In such a foolish society, how people can be happy?

Harikeśa: Well, it's the mother's choice to kill the child or not. If the child isn't born yet, it hasn't come to life in the world, so the mother has the responsibility; she can kill it or not because it's her thing, her child, her production, so she can kill it or not.

Prabhupāda: So I can kill you; I am your guru.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who can say anything? I can kill you. Why police is there? I can say, "He is my disciple. He has fully surrendered. I can kill him." That's all. Will that argument save me from police action?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. The child is so dependent on the mother, if the mother mistreats the opportunity, she also is punished.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: But if the child would cause the mother so much anxiety...

Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. Don't talk of that. It is waste of time. If it is the property of the mother, mother can kill at any time. Why at a certain point if the mother kills child she is hanged? If the mother has got the liberty to kill the child, she can kill at any time.

Harikeśa: Well, it's just a tumor. It's like a tumor.

Prabhupāda: Then why you say that it is mother's right to kill? And tumor, can you bring life in tumor? Kick simply on their face, on their nose. That is the only thing to treat with such... Murkhasya latausadhiḥ. Such fools in the society, they should be hanged. Misleading the whole population.

Harikeśa: Even the big, big philosophers simply say that life doesn't start until it comes out of the womb. They are just convinced of it. They are just convinced of it. No matter what argument you give, they are just simply convinced.

Prabhupāda: How they are convinced? Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's argument is that if life is not there in the womb, then how it develops?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the point. Just like the eggs. If there is no life, how the chicken comes? Why don't you manufacture an egg and bring life from it? That was... The other day I was talking. So because you are tenth-class rascal you cannot understand how the life is there. A seed. Take a seed. Unless there is life, how a big tree comes out of it? You manufacture something like that, imitating, and bring life. Life is there. Because you are tenth-class rascal you do not know.

Harikeśa: They also bring up the insane argument that life...

Prabhupāda: "Insane argument." How we have...? We have no time to hear such insane argument.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But these demons, Prabhupāda, they pose themselves as being very religious. They pose themselves as being very religious.

Prabhupāda: How they are religious?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cite scripture.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) The scripture is also devilish. What is these marks?

Harikeśa: They grow the grass around the outside and when the green inside has some hole in it like there, they plug it up with that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists cannot immediately accept authority of the Bhāgavatam, that it will take hundreds of years.

Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. No intelligence. Therefore I was quoting that, sva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. This class of scientists and such, they are eulogized by small rascals. They are rascals, and small rascals... That is actually happening. Just like your President Nixon. How he was being given reception, crowd. Hundreds and thousands of people used to come. And then again get him down, make him humiliated as far as possible. So this is a rascal, Nixon, and the person who elected him, they are rascals. Therefore the Bhāgavata says, sva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstutaḥ. Here is one big animal, and the small animals voting him. That's all. This is the society, animal society--the small animals praising the big animals. That's all. All of them are animals only.

Devotee: The big animals also prey on the small animals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mutual praising society. That's all. "I praise you and you praise me. I say you are very big; you say I am very big." That's all. And compromise. "I don't criticize you; you don't criticize me." That's all. (break) In the womb the child got life and when the... Sometimes some child comes, stunt. By process again he cries. So why the dead child is not brought into life by that? What do you call dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stillborn. Still. When it's born dead.

Prabhupāda: So... No, no. How the life came? How it became dead? This is eucalyptus, very hard. Eucalyptus?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has smell.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Very hard. No need. (break) ...question, ask them that in the egg there is no life, and the life is coming by what is called? Fermenta... No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fertilization?

Prabhupāda: Fertilization or... No, giving the heat?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Incubation.

Prabhupāda: Incubation. So why don't you make such egg and put it into incubation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We challenge them like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why you are talking nonsense that there is no life? Why you are depending on other life for giving you the egg? So this theory that life comes from chemical, so where it is true? Life is coming from the ... a life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they say that life is simply a combination of chemicals.

Prabhupāda: So do it now. It is not difficult. You can see the egg's chemical, and just combine little chemicals and put it in the incubator. Let life come. Hm? What is your answer? The advocate speaks.

Pusta Krsna: "Yes, we are working on it." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Working on it. Eh? What is the answer? How long you will work? Is there any time limit? Eh? What is that work? What is the answer? Hm? How long you will work?

Harikeśa: I don't think anybody is trying to make an egg.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Why not? Why they are not making, trying?

Devotee (1): They know they can't.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there are certain scientists that are trying to create life, but they've been unsuccessful.

Prabhupāda: Then why do they talk nonsense, what the nonsense says? This is a very good suggestion, that egg is chemical composition. Make a chemical composition like that. That yellow, what is called?

Devotee (1): Yolk.

Prabhupāda: Yolk. You color it. Some chemical and color it. What is difficulty? Sometimes they say a man is dead because the color of the blood has changed. From red to..., it has become white. So where is the difficulty to make it red again? Do it. Change the color again. Make it red. And if you say, "No, that natural redness is required," so there are so many flowers, natural red. Why there is no life? If redness, natural redness, is the cause of life, so there are so many flowers, red flowers. Why they do not walk? If you say that the... "Besides that, the life substance is missing," that is also not correct. Life substance is there in the dead body; otherwise how worms are coming out? Life is coming out. Not one, but hundreds are coming out. How you can say the life substance is missing? The worms are coming automatically, but you take the portion of the dead body and produce worm. That you cannot do. So which way you are going to take credit as scientist? Now which way?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk through there.

Prabhupāda: These arguments are not sufficient to defeat the atheists?

Harikeśa: People in general might accept it, but the scientists could always come up with...

Prabhupāda: No, why the scientists will not accept?

Harikeśa: Well, they don't want to accept.

Prabhupāda: But that is another thing, obstinacy.

Harikeśa: Just like they... In Australia they created those enzymes which were moving and were the basic components of life. So then they say, "Well, we've gone so far and created these first enzymes, the initial component of life. So we'll put them together in the future." And people... That may be an argument. It's not a very good one, but they will accept. All the scientists will accept it, that they've gone so far and done that.

Prabhupāda: No, then who is the scientist who is producing so many lives? You have not met him, but actually we see what you are trying to become successful in future, it is already there. Now, who is that big scientist? Why don't you find him out? Why don't you call him and give him Nobel Prize? Why you are taking? You are rascal. What is their answer? Already things are coming. There are so many lives, so that you are killing lives, being afraid of overpopulation. So he is creating so many lives that you think of it as overpopulation, overproduction. So what is your credit if you suppose in future you create one life? What credit you are going to give him? (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...experimentation, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Science is based on experimentation. They will argue, "So how can we experiment with the theories that you are putting forward?"

Prabhupāda: Our theory or your theory?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your theory. Our theory.

Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?

Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that you've made it so easy to defeat the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yet all the universities, schools throughout the world, they're simply following this experimental knowledge of the scientists. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...machine is recording, but as soon as electricity stops--the machine is there--it will not record. You cannot say the machine is the ultimate. Machine is there; it will not record as soon as the electricity is missing. So that electricity, either you say soul or something else, you replace it. Just like electricity means the battery you charge, it will work, again record. Similarly, if you say "That is not soul, something missing," so you can replace it. What is that something? That something also you do not know. Then how can you refute my argument, soul? You do not know anything. I at least know something on the basis of śāstra. But you have neither śāstra nor experiment, nothing else. So who is strong? I am strong or you are strong?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our position is very weak against these arguments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got some evidences--Kṛṣṇa is speaking, the Vedic śāstra... And what you have got? Simply your speaking? What you are, nonsense? Your speaking should be accepted? And Kṛṣṇa's speaking will be rejected? I have got some support, but what support you have got except your statement? Then everyone can give a statement and he becomes an authority.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many millions and millions of people who hold the opposite view. They feel that their position is very safe because it's the general consensus opinion that life comes from matter.

Prabhupāda: General consensus of opinion... Let them say that there will be no more death, and how it will act? General consensus of opinion... Let them vote, "We do not want death anymore." Will it be accepted?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the value of your vote? You are madmen. Just like Gandhi made civil disobedience here, and government did not accept it. What could he do? (break) ...truth. If the majority says, "No, it is truth," it will be truth?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then untruth is untruth. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             October 25, 1975, Mauritius                                                       411855

Harikeśa: By chemically changing the genes in the living being we can, before conception, make a superior...

Prabhupāda: You can... First of all you be beaten with shoes. That's all. Then you can.

Harikeśa: No, we've actually done it. We've changed some genes and made some people better. By experimentation we can make people...

Prabhupāda: And your big, big cities are full with hippies. You cannot induce them to give up their LSD, and you are making better men. Better men is going to become worse. Just see how cheating.

Harikeśa: Oh, you mean once we make the better men they'll just degrade again.

Prabhupāda: Simply bogus propaganda. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...that their educational system has failed. Therefore they...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should close the universities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So by birth they want to make better men. They can't make them by culture.

Prabhupāda: No, culture... They adopt real culture. What do they know about culture? They're killing their own children in the womb, and they're cultured? Worse than the animals. The animals do not do that. These rascals, they are cultured? So wretched and fallen, and they are claiming to be cultured.

Harikeśa: So you can't culture a superior man unless you are one yourself.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: It's not possible to culture a superior man unless you are one yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all be yourself a cultured man, a gentleman. You are worse than animals. What animals cannot do, you are doing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...man is defined by Cāṇakya Paṇòit.

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇòitaḥ

Here is culture. First thing is, any woman except one's own wife.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: :What is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: :Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacārīs were taught like that, "Mother." This is culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife, other's woman, exploit them. And they're cultured. There is no culture at the present moment. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "And others' money should be treated just like pebbles in the street." Nobody cares for it. So they are simply making plans how to grab others' money. And Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu: "And if you feel pains and pleasure, you should consider for others also." If your throat is cut, then do you feel very happy? Why you are cutting the throats of the poor animals? Where is culture? There is no culture. Simply rogues and thieves and rascals and fools. Where is culture? They do not know what is the meaning of culture. Here is culture, three words:

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇòitaḥ

He is cultured.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise just animal.

Prabhupāda: Simply animal.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is very logical.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we call all the women "mother"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And treat it like mother. Not only call, but treat it like mother.

Harikeśa: Actually we have not even any idea how to treat mother.

Prabhupāda: Learn it. At least mother should not be proposed for sex. This much you can learn. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. (break) ...two questions, that they have not gone to moon planet and they cannot make even a chicken egg, you make great propaganda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The rascals will be proved that they're really rascals.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're saying, "To make human being." First let them make an ant or an egg.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Then? (Bengali) "You cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and you are telling that 'I shall now catch cobra.' "

Harikeśa: Isn't that "shooting the rhinoceros"?

Prabhupāda: Shooting?

Harikeśa: The rhinoceros or hippopotamus or some... You're trying to shoot some big animal, and if you can't do it everybody will say, "Oh, he could never do it anyway." And if he does it they all praise?

Prabhupāda: No, no, to kill animal is not very heroic. Nonsense. Innocent animal wandering and you kill. "Oh, very great hero." Again he deserves to be kicked on the face. All action, they are simply rewarded with kicking on the face. Why should you kill animal? Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. If you are killed, you feel pain. Why should you kill others unnecessarily? (break) ...here?

Prabhupāda: Miami? (break) ...places were reserved for the sinful man in Kali-yuga. Formerly the Aryans never touched these places.

Harikeśa: Africa.

Prabhupāda: Africa or similar, other places. They were living in best places, like India. Now the number of sinful persons are increasing. Therefore they have been transferred here.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: America?

Prabhupāda: Anywhere.

Harikeśa: So in the warmer climates it seems like a better place for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: In warmer climate you can live inexpensively, and freely. In winter climate, there is no freedom, neither it is inexpensive. Very expensive.

                                                                                                                                                                        411918

Prabhupāda: (break) ...the government accept you as guide, then everything will be all right. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Tell them that "We are not going to take any salary. You simply take our advice, and govern." The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well-being of the citizens. (break) ...this tree? Dates?

 

Morning Walk                                             October 26, 1975, Mauritius                                                       412078

Prabhupāda: So the news was there that Jesus Christ, after crucification, he was alive, and he went to... (aside:) Not so near. And he went to Kashmir. So by the yogic process, in samādhi one can remain alive although superficially he is seen that he is killed. That is possible. Hiraṇyakaśipu did that. He was undergoing tapasya for one hundred years of the demigods. Their duration of time is: our six months, their one day. So such a long time he was undergoing austerity, penance, and thus he became perfect. So his body was practically finished by the earthworm, what is called, moths and ants.

Brahmānanda: Because he was standing still?

Prabhupāda: Yes. For so many years everything was eaten. Only on the bones were there.

Brahmānanda: So he appeared to be dead, but he wasn't.

Prabhupāda: No, he was not dead. He was living on bones. Bones were there. Mean, life is not dependent on this material body. One can practice this by yoga. Without this body he can live. Just like ghost. That is possible.

Brahmānanda: Yes, the yogis are able to stop their breathing...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ...and stop their heart beating, and still they are not dead.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is perfection of astanga-yoga, samādhi, to remain in trance. (break) Yes. Actually he was not dead.

Cyavana: He never died.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He practiced yoga from India. For twelve years he was there.

Brahmānanda: In India. So is that a fact, that he went to India?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise how he came to Kashmir? He knew. And when he was in India his mother died. That Aquarian Gospel? Father and mother died.

Brahmānanda: In the book that Haṁsadūta published, of Christ, Kristos and Krishna, these things are there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the Aquarian Gospel. (Break) Dr. Wolf has said that he cannot accept from Krishna to Krista. Then, by that word, he has proved himself another rascal, because he does not know the Sanskrit way of philology. Sanskrit, there are vargas--ka-varga, ca-varga, ṭa-varga, ta-varga and pa-varga;--five vargas. So Kṛṣṇa is in the ṭa-varga. Öa, ṭha, òa, òha, ṇa. So Kṛṣṇa, it can be replaced by ṭa also. (laughter) He does not know that, this rascal. That is the difficulty. These Western rascals, little knowledge, they think very good scholar. That is the difficulty.

Brahmānanda: He is very proud.

Prabhupāda: Because he has got that doctorate title, so he thinks that he has conquered all over the world. Sapari jala-matrena phora-phoraya. (?) You'll find some fish, a small--little water: (makes sound) "phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr."

Brahmānanda: Making big noise.

Prabhupāda: And a big fish, they'll remain in the middle, whale fish. And a small fish, (makes noise) "phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr." Sapari phora phoraya. So he is a small fish. He is thinking that he knows everything. What does he know about these five vargas? Does he know anything? Ka-varga, ca-varga, ṭa-varga. So ṭa-varga means ṭa, ṭha, òa, òha, ṇa. So the ṇa is there. So it can be replaced by ṭa.

Harikeśa: I think he was also the same one who was saying the Aquarian Gospel was just somebody's dream.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but you are also dreaming. Why do you claim that your dream is all right; his dream is wrong? Dreaming is wrong. If his dream is wrong--you are also dreaming--you are also wrong. Why do you claim that your dream is all right? That is nonsense. Everyone thinks that he is right and everyone is wrong. We do not think like that. We take the words of the authority, that's all. Or we have no respect(?). This is our program. That is the way of paramparā. Not only we accept, but our previous ācāryas, all the big, big ācāryas, they have accepted. Śukadeva Gosvāmī said. He is ācārya. Vyāsadeva says from the very beginning. Kṛṣṇa says. That's all right. We take these authorities. We do not dream. That is not our process. Dream, your dream or my dream, this is all rascal. Dream is dream. Why do you think that your dream is right and my dream is wrong?

Brahmānanda: That's why they're always bickering with one another.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no standard idea. I dream some way; you dream some way. That's all. What is this?

Cyavana: Seaweed.

Brahmānanda: It looks like a sponge.

Cyavana: Plant.

Prabhupāda: That is their defect. If my dream is wrong, why your dream should be right? That they did not conceive of, that "My dream is right(?)." And if you say that "Your dream is also wrong," yes, I do not dream. I take the facts from the authority. We do not dream. Dream is dream, either yours or mine. It doesn't matter.

Brahmānanda: Well, some people question whether that Aquarian Gospel is authority.

Prabhupāda: Why Bible is authority? Who cares for Bible? Nobody cares for Bible. So there, some supporter for some book, these, you will always find it. Huh? Now they are decrying, deriding Bible also. So how do you say that Bible is authority when so many things have changed?

Brahmānanda: Even they are changing their interpretation of the...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ...Bible regularly.

Prabhupāda: So if you don't accept Aquarian Gospel authority, who cares for your Bible? At least Aquarian Gospel has been written by some Christian. It is not outsider.

Harikeśa: They say he was a drunk.

Prabhupāda: But you are a mad. He is drunk, and you are mad. Where is the difference? So, if we can go? (break) It was a statement that the earth is flat. Eh? Where it was stated the earth is flat?

Harikeśa: Oh. That was a theory of one of the contemporary Roman philosophers.

Prabhupāda: It is not in Bible.

Harikeśa: No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (Break) There is no information in the Bible at all about God. There's no information about God, simply that God is there, He's the creator, but nothing more.

Prabhupāda: That is in no scripture excepting the Vedic scripture. Clear conception of God is there in the Vedic. Definition of God, clear conception of God, everything is there.

Brahmānanda: Their idea is that God is so great that you cannot see Him.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot see because you are worthless. But those who are worthful, those who have attained liberation, they can see. Just like it is stated in the Bhāgavata, apasyat puruṣam purnam. Apasyat: "He saw, Vyāsadeva." Huh... Bhakti-yogena manasi samyak pranihite amale apasyat. When your heart will be completely cleared of all this material conception, then you can see. So long you are materially contaminated, it is not possible. That's a fact. But bhakti-yogena samyak pranihite amale. When the heart is cleansed, that is the process. Therefore we are insisting that "Let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa." Ceto-darpana-marjanam. The heart will be cleansed. Then they will understand. All of a sudden, if you speak all this philosophy "Kṛṣṇa said," they will accept that "Why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man. Why shall I..."

Brahmānanda: They will argue.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Because the heart is full of dirty things, so therefore ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, this is the process. First of all cleanse the heart. Just like slate. If it is unclean, or the mirror, if it is unclean, you cannot see. So you have to cleanse his heart. That we can do. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... And that is proof. Otherwise how could you come to this camp unless the heart is cleansed? That's a proof.

Brahmānanda: They came by the chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some fish? No.

Brahmānanda: In the Old Testament, God was speaking to Moses. So Moses wanted to see God. He was on a mountain. And he turned around, but then God became a burning bush.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was supposed to be the back of God. The burning bush was the back of God.

Prabhupāda: Burning bush?

Brahmānanda: A bush that was on fire.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: That's what...

Prabhupāda: God has no material body.

Brahmānanda: Because he was not qualified to see God.

Prabhupāda: Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ. By these material senses, you cannot understand God. Nāmādi. Even you cannot understand His holy name. Our understanding of God begins by chanting the holy name. So by chanting, chanting, because God is not different from the name, you associate with name..., er, with God, and then you become cleansed. This is the process. God is not different from His holy name. So you chant the holy name of God. That means you associate with God immediately. Just like you associate with the sun immediately, er, sunshine--you become warm--similarly, by associating with God, you become God conscious. This is our program. We are giving chance people to associate with God directly by chanting His holy name. God is omnipotent. His name is as omnipotent as He is. These fools, they do not know that.

Brahmānanda: They think it's some lesser, ordinary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you say, "Why, then, Kṛṣṇa? There are many names," so Caitanya: "Yes, any name of God, if it is God's name, it is as powerful." If it is God's name. "Any name" does not mean you manufacture some name. That is not. Any name by which one can understand this is God's name, that is there said. Nāmnam akari bahudha-nija sarva-śaktis tatrarpita niyamitaḥ smarane na kalaḥ. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. If you do not accept Kṛṣṇa as a God's name, then if you have your own name of Kṛṣṇa, er, God, chant it.

Brahmānanda: But it must be standard.

Prabhupāda: Must be God's name.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. But if you do not know what is God's name, then what you will chant? What you will chant? Then you chant Kṛṣṇa. We know it is God's name. Take. Take to our principle. If there is no medical college, come to our medical college. You are welcome. Why you are envious? You have no medical college; at the same time, you are envious of my medical college. Why? Why this nonsense? If you want to learn medical science--you have no medical science, college--come here. This is our proposal. Why you are envious? That means rascal. "Our gold." Gold is "our gold," everyone's gold? "Our gold." What do you mean, "our gold"? Gold is always gold, either in your hand or in my hand. In your hand it is not Christian gold and in my hand it is not Hindu gold. Gold is gold.

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija sarva śaktis

tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ

etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi

durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

In the Bible there is no specific name of God. Eh?

Brahmānanda: Well, they say, "jehovah" and "Yaweḥ."

Prabhupāda: Not fixed up. The Māyāvāda... If you have no fixed name of God, then why don't you chant Kṛṣṇa? What is the harm? But envious. Therefore paramo nirmatśaraṇaṁ. One who has completely eradicated from the envious conception of life, they can take to this way. (Break) ...climate of this island is good.

Cyavana: It's pleasant.

Prabhupāda: (Break) ...right time. I don't think he had many followers.

Cyavana: Very few.

Prabhupāda: Only twelve, and out of them some proved infidel.

Cyavana: Yes.

Brahmānanda: One betrayed him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: Peter?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Judah.

Prabhupāda: And after resurrection he had to go away to India.

Cyavana: Yes. That's 'cause they tried to kill him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if he had declared that "I am not dead," perhaps he would have been again crucified.

Cyavana: Yes. They would keep trying to kill him.

Prabhupāda: Because the people were so intelligent, they would not believe him, so out of fear he went away. "All right, stop my preaching. Come on. (laughs) Let me go to find some safe place."

 

Morning Walk                                              October 28, 1975, Nairobi                                                         412241

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Slaughterhouse or no slaughterhouse... They take anything as being good, the governments.

Prabhupāda: Because government "by the people."

Brahmānanda: By the fools and rascals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Government for the people, by the people."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Democracy idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is democracy.

Brahmānanda: Usually their philosophy is that anyone has the liberty to do whatever he likes as long as it doesn't hurt another, as long as it doesn't infringe on another's liberty.

Prabhupāda: Then how you are killing the animals? (break) ...eat meat, therefore you are killing poor animals. Why you are interfering others' life? (break) ...the best park here. (break) Here there is no such park.

Brahmānanda: Really?

Prabhupāda: Nice park. (break)

Cyavana: ...agricultural.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All opulent.

Cyavana: Yes. All fruits...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: ...and flowers.

Jïāna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kenya the great majority of people live in the country rather than the towns.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. "Country is made of God, and city is made by man." That is the remark by poet Cowper.

Jïāna: How may we best expand our movement into the rural areas or into the country areas?

Prabhupāda: So, Brahmānanda, explain our scheme.

Harikeśa: Explain our scheme.

Cyavana: About the rural development village program.

Brahmānanda: Of making the men self-sufficient in cloth, foodstuffs, milk products, grains.

Cyavana: There's a map. (break)

Jïāna: ...program like the Christians.

Prabhupāda: Explain how to... Explain.

Brahmānanda: Of having a... Encouraging the people to..., first by having kīrtana and prasādam. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is the process. Some how or other, they should join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare..." Then everything... It is not very difficult. Simply induce them to chant. That will make everything success.

Jïāna: We have been spending some time in a small town.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, hell or heaven, it doesn't matter. You induce people to chant. This is the sum and substance of devotee. It doesn't matter whether it is town, city, village. Wherever you go, you gather people and induce them by flattering them, by falling their, on their leg--some way or other, induce them. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. This is the process shown by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that "My dear sir, I have come to you with great humbleness, taking a straw in my mouth." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya: "And falling down on your lotus feet." Kaku-satam kṛtva: "And I am trying to please you by so many flattering words." Kṛtva ahaṁ bravimi: "I have got some submission, if you'll kindly hear." So who is that man who will deny? If you fall down on his feet and take a straw and very humbly you pray, "Sir, I have got something to say if you kindly hear," who will deny? Who is that man? Even rogues, rascals, he'll also agree: "Yes, you can say what you want to do." This is the process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kaku-satam kṛtva ca ahaṁ bravimi. "I want to submit. Will you kindly hear?" So any rogue, rascal, gentleman, big, small, learned--everyone will agree. Is it not, if you submit like that, that with great humbleness and flattering him, "Falling down on your feet, I want to submit something"? Huh? What do you think?

Jïāna: I think it's wonderful. Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the... This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned..." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā,~

rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly, "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt: "Kick out whatever you nonsense learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum... You know this?

Cyavana: That is Latin.

Girl devotee (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum vaculum? Hm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. The dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya laṭau śādhi (?) "One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick." This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ (sadā hariḥ)

So we should preach like this, any rascal, because anyone who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. That's all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that "You are rascal. There is no mistaking it," then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta...: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that's all." Then you'll not be able to preach. So you have to become very humble, tṛṇād api sunīcena, humbler than the grass. Just like everyone is trampling over the grass. It doesn't protest, "Why you are going, keeping your leg on my head?" But that is the... Tṛṇād api sunīcena. Go on trampling. Hundreds' and hundreds' people are trampling over the grass; they don't protest. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. The tree is standing. You sit down. When there is scorching heat, you take pleasure by sitting down under the shade. But the reward is that you cut the branches. That is their reward. He gives you shelter, and you cut the branch. You cut the whole tree. This is your gratefulness. You see? Because we are rascals, we do not know what is gratefulness. They are taking milk from the cow and killing. This is our proposal. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises, taror api sahiṣṇunā--tolerant, humbler than the grass. Amāninā mānadena. Don't expect any honor for your person, but to the others give honor: "Oh, you are most exalted person," although he's a rascal. What can be done? Otherwise you cannot preach. If you call a rascal a rascal, immediately your preaching will be stopped. So you have to say that "You are the greatest intelligent man, sādhu, most honored. The only request is that vou forget what you have learned. That's all. And take this." In this way preaching practical. Otherwise it is not possible. Everyone is thinking he is the most exalted personality, scientist, philosopher, great man. That is material disease. Actually he is being kicked every moment by the urges of the senses, and he is thinking he is very great man. Go-dāsa. Go means senses. He is always, I mean, curbed down by the sense urges, and he is thinking, "independent." Independent means servant of the senses. This is going on. So you have to understand the real position of the world, and if you want to preach, then you have to (be) humbler than the tree, humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree and... We know everyone is rascal; still, you have to give him honor. Then it will be possible to say something. Otherwise it is very difficult. We have to deal with all rascals, fools, rogues, ruffians, all good qualificat..., like. This is... You must know these things. You are dealing with all rascals. So if we call them directly "rascal," they will be angry. Your preaching will not be successful. So follow the principles enunciated by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī and Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Jïāna: When they ask us about Lord Caitanya, "Who is this Lord Caitanya?" what may we tell them?

Prabhupāda: "Yes, you'll understand. Please kindly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa now. You'll understand." When we say, "Follow the instruction of Caitanya," means chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What Caitanya said? Caitanya said, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ: "Always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. So you'll know Caitanya, what He is, later on. For the time being, Caitanya says that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You do it, and then you will be able very easily. At the present moment, simply if you want to know--I explain Caitanya--it will be not possible for you. Better chant. Take His instruction. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Where they are going? To work?

Girl devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the time for their joining?

Indian man (2): Between six-thirty and seven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: And how long they'll work?

Indian man (2): They will work up to twelve, one o'clock. Then they go home. Then they come back again at four o'clock and...

Prabhupāda: That is Indian. In India also the servant like that. Then remains up to nine o'clock.

Indian man (2): But those who are far away, they go at six o'clock. (break)

Jïāna: But if the devotees, if they go and live in small groups amongst the people, for example, in the country instead of just in big city temples, then we can influence more people, get more people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Good idea. But whether you will be able to live? Better go from the city to the interior, come back.

Cyavana: To remain there for long is difficult.

Jïāna: It's difficult.

Cyavana: Yes. We've had experience.

Prabhupāda: You go, just in Europe, America, they are going in buses in interior, and they're preaching then coming back.

Jïāna: So this should be our program.

Prabhupāda: (softly)

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

                                                                                                                                                                        412321

Jïāna: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

Prabhupāda: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

Jïāna: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like that.

Prabhupāda: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure.

Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted. Yavad-ārtha prayojanam. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi-daḥ. You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is absolutely necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing big, big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles' speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachori, halavā with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

Jïāna: A nice program here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization? Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like hog.

Brahmānanda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all nonsense things. This is their civilization.

Jïāna: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so...

Prabhupāda: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi, sandeṣa, rasagullā, rabri, so many, halavā. They become: "Oh, so many nice things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized, they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that.

 

The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. …Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully.

 

We can read Bhagavad-gītā, and if we don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and go on whimsically, then we'll suffer.

 

The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No--para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation.

 

Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality…So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You'll not be forced, but automatically you'll desire. That is quality.

 

Therefore our civilization is to decrease the bodily necessities, not to increase. Control. Control, from the brahmacārī, control, control, control. Ultimately completely control. That is perfectional stage. Tyāgena.

 

If you can, sixteen thousand you can go. Sixteen rounds is the minimum. But if you are able to chant sixteen thousand rounds, that is welcome. We have got so much engagement.

 

Prabhupāda: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Kṛṣṇa. Yes…We are Kṛṣṇian, and they are Christian. There is similarity...Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.

Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he...

Prabhupāda: No, even by yoga system...

Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance.

Prabhupāda: He lived by trance.

Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it.

 

…Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture.

 

…People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another…And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific… If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop.

 

Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?...So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?

Prabhupāda: Banana leaf… Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots.

 

At least let us inform the whole world that the process of civilization, education, everything rotten. That we have to say.

 

Educated, modern educated girl means how to become unfaithful to the husband, how to divorce and how to kill child.

 

…Indians economical backwards because they have given up their own culture. When India was actually standing on the old culture, they were never defeated…

 

Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says, nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kārye. You do your work but take shelter of harinama. That is wanted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You do your work but take shelter of harinama.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME SEVENTEEN

Room Conversation                                      October 29, 1975, Nairobi                                                         412544

Prabhupāda: Yes. These people can be brought under control by bribing. There is no problem. They have no moral strength, and poor. They will accept bribe. I think by bribing it is still going on. Otherwise how they can stop this bribing? That is not possible.

 

Prabhupāda: The simple method that everything belongs to God... The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. Just like knighthood or in Mussulman times, subedat(?), and in Hindu times, the subordinate king. Just like Pāṇòavas, they were the emperors, and under them there were many hundreds and thousands of kings, states. And everything belongs to God. So why fighting? Take it. It is God's property. We are all sons of God. But there is no culture, Aryan culture. They do not know how to live peacefully and cultivate spiritual culture. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśāya ye bahir-artha... And durāśāya, bad hopes or hopes against hope, they're trying to be happy, bahir-artha, by the external energy, material, most fallen ideas, all foolish theories without any knowledge. Material, that's all. Bahir artha, external energy. Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully. They are talking of peace, but they do not know how peace can be achieved. They are hankering after peace, but they do not know how to achieve peace. And that formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: Accept God as the proprietor; then there will be peace. Something stolen from the proprietor by some thieves, and when they sit down to take their shares, there will be fight. The property is stolen, and they are sharing. Now, one will say, "Oh, I have worked so hard. You are giving me so little share?" And others will say, "No, no, we have worked equally." Somebody, "No..." In this way there will be fight.

Brahmānanda: This is going on in the United Nations now.

Prabhupāda: It will go because they are all thieves. When the stolen property is to be divided, there will be fight.

Cyavana: Like a band of pirates. They always fight amongst themselves and kill each other.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the... Of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu-mazara(?) party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is the way. Senayor eva sa ucyate. All these thieves and rascal, rogues... God's property, why you should fight amongst themselves? Property belongs to somebody else. Insanity. Just like this is government park. Anyone can come in. Everyone can equally enjoy. So why not make the whole world as Kṛṣṇa's park? What is the difficulty? Actually it is the fact. Why do you claim? Now we have come. If you say, "No, this portion belongs to us," and another, "This portion belongs to us," then there will be fight. And if we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, every one of us, that if they see Kṛṣṇa's property, so let us enjoy. What is the cause of fighting? The hotels are the centers for all kinds of sinful activity. Huh? Illicit sex, drinking, gambling and meat-eating. No discrimination.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                 October 29, 1975, Nairobi                                                         412413

Prabhupāda: prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. By pleasing the spiritual master, you please Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. But why Kṛṣṇa should be pleased? Why? What is the necessity of pleasing Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee (1): To please the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. Guru is representative of Kṛṣṇa, but why one should bother himself for pleasing Kṛṣṇa? Answer this.

Devotee (1): 'Cause our real position is to serve Kṛṣṇa, and because we've fallen in this illusion of the material energy, so we forgot our position.

Prabhupāda: We shall do it otherwise. Why shall I please Kṛṣṇa? We are making scientific progress. What is the use of bringing God?

Devotee (2): Because we shall never become perfect or see the answer.

Prabhupāda: That is begging the question.

Indian man (3): For spreading the name of the Kṛṣṇa, in the world.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of guru. Guru is doing all right. Why you should be so much anxious and feel obligation to please Kṛṣṇa?

Indian (4): Everybody has to serve somebody, so Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure and everything exists from Him. So instead of serving anybody, we should serve the Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: "That's all right. Without serving Kṛṣṇa, I am getting pleasure by drinking wine. Why shall I...?"

Cyavana: That pleasure will not last. That pleasure is only temporary.

Prabhupāda: "No, I will not also last. (laughter) that..."

Cyavana: But to accept such a mentality, we say that is third class. Actually our life is eternal.

Prabhupāda: That is your statement, "third class," but my statement is "It is first class." (laughter)

Harikeśa: Is it first class if every time you are going to eat something nice I was standing over you with a stick, and as soon as you took, I would beat you? So every time you have some enjoyment, there is some concurrent suffering. Like you enjoy the wine, but then you have a headache, hangover. You enjoy. Then you get sick.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Tenth Chapter, He says, "For those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I will give the understanding by which they can come to Me." So this is our desire.

Prabhupāda: "I don't want to go."

Cyavana: You don't want to go to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: "Yes."

Harikeśa: All right, suffer. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: "I don't suffer. (laughter) I am enjoying."

Harikeśa: You are enjoying death and old age?

Prabhupāda: "Yes, you are putting upon me some impression, 'suffering,' but I am enjoying."

Harikeśa: Your knee is hurt. Is that enjoying?

Prabhupāda: "That I am curing. That is also nice." (laughter)

Harikeśa: But soon the whole thing will be finished. You will not... No one enjoys death. No one will take voluntarily a death pill.

Prabhupāda: Nobody of you could answer the question. Now I give you again chance to answer this question very properly. Why one should be obliged to please Kṛṣṇa? Why?

Harikeśa: Just like this finger. Its position is to serve the body. Just like the stomach. Everyone may be jealous of the stomach and not want to feed the stomach, but if all the hands and the legs and the mouth went on strike not to feed the stomach...

Prabhupāda: This is the right answer.

Harikeśa: ...they would ultimately be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle. So if we actually want happiness we must cooperate with the state. This is crude example. Similarly, if our ultimate aim is to become happy, then we must cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. This is obligatory. You cannot escape it. Then you'll be unhappy. This is the... Stomach. Pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam. Therefore the natural process is you pick up... A child even. He picks up some something, but he does not put anywhere--immediately in the mouth. Why he does not bring it in the ear? Why? The child immediately takes it. He does not know what is what. But the nature is that as soon as he captures something, even he does not know... Because his position is eating, he knows this much, sense gratification. Other senses are not yet developed. So the child, he knows taste with tongue and eats. That he knows. So immediately anything he captures, he brings to the mouth, naturally. He hasn't got to be educated. So our position is like that. We being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our natural tendency is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Natural tendency. It is not artificial. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is artificial. So our normal life means to love Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. Without serving Kṛṣṇa our life is abnormal, madman's life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says... When you forget Kṛṣṇa, He comes to preach the normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. This is normal life. So Kṛṣṇa does not require your help. He can create many helpers. But for your good Kṛṣṇa comes, that "If you want normal, happy life, then surrender unto Me." This is the proposal. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā, all Vedic knowledge, is there. We have forgotten our position. Our posit..., normal position, is to love and serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Because we do not know... From time immemorial we cannot ascertain when this incidents have happened, to forget Kṛṣṇa, but it is practically... Life after life, life after life, we are changing body, but forgetting Kṛṣṇa. So here, in the human form of life, there is the opportunity to revive our original position, and we require the help of knowledge, perfect knowledge. And that is there in the Vedas. Atha eva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. If we don't take advantage, although we have got... We can read Bhagavad- gītā, and if we don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and go on whimsically, then we'll suffer. You cannot non-cooperate with Kṛṣṇa as you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. This is the... You must. There is no question of alternative. You may, may not know. It is not. You must. This is the position. Otherwise you'll never be happy. And happiness is your aim of life. Atyantika- duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. We are... I'm suffering from this knee's trouble because I am in this material world. I have got this material body. So atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ means no more material world, no more material body. And for that purpose we have to cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Any question about this? Just like these African women. They are going to work. There is no question of no work. They must. Otherwise they cannot eat. Anyone, if by working his livelihood is going on, how he can non-cooperate? This is not possible.

Brahmānanda: The thief is also eating.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace, just like the government gives the prisoners also to eat. But they are condemned. And government's grace that government provides all necessities. If a prisoner is sick, he is given the hospital facility. But he is restricted free movement, that much. Otherwise government gives the same facilities within the prison house and without the... The standard may be little different. Eko yo bahūnāṁ (yo) vidadhāti kamān. He satis... Why this human being prisoner? Even He is giving food to the animals, to the birds, beasts, everyone. Noncooperation cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says, bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Now, you have to grow trees, plants and vegetables for your eating. So that you cannot have without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives all the seeds. Bijo 'ham. You cannot manufacture the seed. He gives the seed. You work little, sow it and get the result. But without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa, how can you get the seed? Then where is your food? No food. You must take... "God, give us our daily bread." Kṛṣṇa gives the seeds, and you sow it and get the fruit or grains. Then you can exist. Even if you are animal-eater, the animal must also come from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture the animal. That is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. Bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. The animal is produced by father and mother, but the seed is given in the semina by Kṛṣṇa. And then animal is produced. So how you can non-cooperate Kṛṣṇa? You have to cooperate. Otherwise... (man yelling in background) What is that? (laughter) Huh? They are criticizing us? No.

Brahmānanda: He's imitating the birds.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Just like this tendency was exhibited by Kṛṣṇa. In the forest the two brothers and other cowherds boys, they were also imitating. They were flying. The bird is flying; they were also flying like this. And coming to the monkey, coming to the peacock and imitating the..., like this. These are description in the Kṛṣṇa book.

Brahmānanda: But his imitating the bird means he will become a bird?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Brahmānanda: This man's imitating the bird means that he will become a bird.

Prabhupāda: Not necess... This is sporting. It will be decided what he is thinking at the time of death. That will become prominent.

Brahmānanda: Is it by chance what you think of at the time of death or is...

Prabhupāda: No.

Brahmānanda: ...it dependent?

Prabhupāda: It is dependent. Just like all of a sudden some idea come to us. That means we had contact with such idea. It is compared with... Just like there is a big pond. All of a sudden, you see, from within a bubble comes "phut!" There is no reason, but it comes. That means the thing is there within the pond, the situation. All of a sudden, without any time, it comes. They put this chance theory like this. But this is not chance. If... Because we are changing our life, so everything is recorded in the mind, dictaphone. So sometimes some idea which I had contact with many, many years ago, it comes. It comes. It is not chance. I had contact with such thing. All of a sudden, that idea comes. We shall go now.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupada: (break) ...I am in the car, they offer me.

Woman: Oh, all African, small boys.

Prabhupāda: They understand this is good.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, and He is the one who create this material world. So my impression is Kṛṣṇa, He didn't make this material world to be spiritual?

Prabhupāda: It is spiritual as soon as you become a devotee, spiritual. We are living in the spiritual world. That I explained last night. So ultimately there is nothing material. Material means when you forget Kṛṣṇa. That is material.

Devotee (1): My question, Prabhupāda, was...

Prabhupāda: There is no material. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Just like madness. Madness is not our natural position, but when your brain is deranged, then it is madness. Madness has no separate existence, but when our brain is not in order, there is madness. Similarly, there is nothing spiritual, because everything has come from Kṛṣṇa. The original source is Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. So the material world, the so-called material world, has come from Kṛṣṇa. So if it has come from Kṛṣṇa how it is material? The cause and effect is the same, maybe differently manifested. Just like cotton, cotton made into thread, the shape has changed, but it is cotton. And from the cotton thread, you make cloth. The cloth is cotton. But if I say, "Cotton. Bring cotton," then you'll bring cotton, not this cloth. But the cloth is also cotton. Now understand? Cloth is nothing but cotton. But when I say "Bring cotton," you'll not bring a cloth. You'll bring cotton. So the Kṛṣṇa is the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam, cause of all effects. So all the effects are Kṛṣṇa. But you have no such realization. When you understand that this place is Kṛṣṇa's place, so you can worship Kṛṣṇa, glorify Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't realize that it is Kṛṣṇa's, then you talk nonsense, madman. "This is American property," "It is African property," "It is this. It is that," so many madness. But the śāstra says, iśavāsyam idam, everything Kṛṣṇa's. And the materialists, they'll pro... "No. Why everything? It is my country. It is my place." That is material. Similarly, anything coming from Kṛṣṇa--Kṛṣṇa is supreme spirit--it is spiritual. The devotees, they understand that "This fruit has come from Kṛṣṇa. The flower has come from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it must be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is for use." Otherwise how the fruit becomes spiritual? We take prasādam. How it becomes..., the same fruit? No. Because the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, it is spiritual. It is spiritual, but it was not known. When one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he understands that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Hari-sambhandhi vastūnaḥ. Everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That's the fact. So if anything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa, so that is not material. We are going to a house, but it is said "temple." Why? Because there is relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise where is the difference between the next house and our house? So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that everything is spiritual, but we do not accept it. We accepted something else. That is material.

Devotee (1): From all scriptures you instructed us in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that we should not jump from book to book, but I am so much attached to them that I read every book. Would that stop me to understand the philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. By reading, you'll understand. Hm? What is that?

Brahmānanda: He's asking that it states in part one of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that one should not jump to the Tenth Canto without having read all the previous.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Knowledge has got step. You are learning ABCD. How you can go to higher studies?

Brahmānanda: But the prabhu is feeling that he likes to read all of your books and sometimes he reads one book and sometimes another book. Is that bad?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not bad, but better go by step by step.

Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                            November 2, 1975, Nairobi                                                          412740

Prabhupāda: (break) ...given by God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajïaya guru hana tara ei deśa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No--para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) (break) Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to... But they are being forcefully driven away: "Go away." Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And śāstra and śāstra... These people were driven away by śāstra,, by weapon, knife. That is śāstra. And śāstra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called śāstra. The original word is coming from śās. Sas means ruling, śās-dhātu. Śāstra, śāstra, śāsana, śisya. Śisya. Śisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called śisya. The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-śisya. Similarly śāstra means weapon: "If you don't follow, then I shall cut your throat." Similarly śāstra. So śāstra says that "Now you must leave your family life." That is called vānaprastha. So that is not being carried out, although the śāstra injunction is there. Brahmacari, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So brahmacārī is the beginning of life, how to become controlled life. Then he is allowed the concession for sense gratification. This is gṛhastha. Then śāstra says, "Now you have done up to fifty years. Now get out." But nobody is following. They are not prepared to get out unless death forces to get out. That Kṛṣṇa does. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. He is not willing. He has got attachment. He doesn't want. Then, at last, Kṛṣṇa comes as death: "Now get out." Kick out. "Oh, I have got so many things. I have got my sons, daughters, and this, that." "Get out. No question." And whatever you have accumulated, that is forfeit. That's all. The same process, just Africa government: "Get out." And what you have attained? All taken away. The same śāstra, śis, śās-dhātu.

                                                                                                                                                                        412775

Prabhupāda: Business. So is that...? The business is the occupation of brāhmaṇa? You are already fallen. How he can criticize others?

Indian woman: That is all, brāhmaṇas, all brāhmaṇas, there is no big knowledge. That is Śiva. Śiva is the head.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Śiva is the head, but whether you are brāhmaṇa? That is the question.

Indian woman: They don't know, understand.

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there--śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jïānam, vijïānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaû lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brāhmaṇa. We don't do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follows the rules and regulations. Then let us see. If he is actually serious, he has developed the symptom, then... This is the proper way. Even one comes from the brāhmaṇa family--he wants initiation--we don't give immediately, even if he is coming from a brāhmaṇa... That is a good facility, that he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, but the symptom is the first necessity. Either you are born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family, it doesn't matter.

Indian man (6): (unclear)

Brahmānanda: What is that? The brāhmaṇas who come over from?

Indian man (6): From ISKCON center. We have a tendency (unclear)

Brahmānanda: Yes. So what is your question?

Indian man (6): So don't you think that the blame should not be, usually be laid on the Africans but on the whole...?

Brahmānanda: He's saying that the brāhmaṇas who comes from our overseas temples here, it's their responsibility to see that the Africans follow properly, because the Africans will follow their example.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is for that purpose they have come. That is the purpose, missionary purpose, here. We come here not to earn some money but to see that this culture is spread. So what is his question?

Brahmānanda: So it's the responsibility then of those who are coming as the missionaries to set the proper example.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Brahmānanda: Because then the Africans will follow that proper example.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, he is right.

Brahmānanda: If they set a bad example, then they will follow bad example, then the criticism of the Indians will be justified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. So those who cannot follow, they should not come here. And ask from the origin that "Those who cannot strictly follow the rules and regulations, they should not come at all. It will set a bad example. They should be forbidden to come here." That I was speaking, that instead of filling with bad cows, better keep the cowshed vacant. That I was speaking. Those who cannot strictly follow our principles, they should not come here. It is bad example. By mistake, if somebody does, he should be regretful and he should rectify. That is another thing. But not willingly he should neglect. Then such person is not required at all.

Devotee (7): Prabhupāda, in the movement there is sometimes difficulty, and...

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? You chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulative... Where is the difficulty?

Devotee (7): If they will not accept instruction, then...

Cyavana: Then what is your instruction? If they won't accept your instruction, then what is your instruction? Must be bogus. Huh? If your instruction is pure, then they'll accept. If your instruction is not pure, who will accept? I will not accept.

Prabhupāda: No, "Example is better than precept." If you actually follow strictly the rules and regulations and chant sixteen rounds, why they'll not follow? They'll follow. If you are not attending class, if you are not attending maìgala ārati, if you are not finishing sixteen rounds, then that is bad example.

Brahmānanda: This boy didn't attend mangal ārati.

Prabhupāda: Don't set bad example. That is detrimental.

Devotee (7): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it for the advanced devotees...?

Prabhupāda: Nobody is advanced. Everyone is student. He must follow. There is no question of advanced.

Devotee (7): I mean, they call śūdras...

Prabhupāda: Śūdras? Śūdra, how he can be devotee? Śūdras are never devotee.

Indian man (4): No, he says sometimes the devotees, they call the other devotee that "You are śūdra."

Prabhupāda: That is jokingly. (laughter)

Indian man (4): Prabhupāda, sometimes you have said that this Gāyatrī was first spoken by the Lord, and this is a sound vibration of the Kṛṣṇa's flute, and it was heard by Brahma. Right? And these brāhmaṇas, so-called brāhmaṇas...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of "so-called." We want real brāhmaṇa. That's all. It was heard by the real brāhmaṇa, Brahma. Brahma, Brahma.

Indian man (4): So they worship Gāyatrī. They say it like as a...

Prabhupāda: They... Whatever they say, you forget that. You do your own duty. You follow the rules and regulation and do the needful. Why you...?

Indian man (4): But we have to make them understand very clearly.

Prabhupāda: But they will never understand. You don't waste your time. Go on with your duty. When they will see that you are actually acting as brāhmaṇa, they will appreciate.

Indian woman: Time will come. They will notice.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will appreciate. But if you don't follow strictly, then it is useless to criticize them also. You are also victim; they are also victim.

Devotee (8): When chanting our sixteen rounds, we are not sure if these rounds are sincere...

Prabhupāda: You should be sure.

Devotee (8): How can we be sure?

Prabhupāda: There is beads.

Brahmānanda: No, he's saying that when we chant our rounds, how can we be sure that when we chant the round that the round is a perfect, attentive round, sincere?

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is śāstra, "You must." There is no question of understanding.

Brahmānanda: The quality of the chanting he's asking. How can we make the quality the best?

Prabhupāda: Quality, you'll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he'll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the śāstra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality--it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, "Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?" That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You'll not do it; therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, "Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?" That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridāsa Öhākura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He requested, "Now you are old enough. You can reduce." So he refused, "No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on." That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athāśaktiḥ. Aśakti, attachment. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī says that "How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it." This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births. For the time being you go on following the rules and regulations. It is being done by force. Where is the quality? So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You'll not be forced, but automatically you'll desire. That is quality. I am writing books. I am not being forced by anyone. Everyone can do that. Why one does not do it? Why I get up at night, one o'clock, and do this job? Because I cannot do without it. How one will do it artificially? This is quality. Therefore they like my purports. That quality is shown by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. "Oh, I do not see Govinda. The whole world is vacant." Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. This is quality. Just like we have got practical example. One man's beloved has died, and he is seeing the whole universe vacant. Is it vacant? So that is quality of love. So there is no formula of quality. It is to be understood by himself. Just like if after eating something you feel refreshed and get strength, that is quality. You haven't got to take certificate: "Will you give me a certificate that I have eaten?" You'll understand whether eaten or not. That is quality. When you will feel so much ecstasy in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is quality. Not artificially--"Chant. Chant. Otherwise get out." This is not quality. This is in expectation that someday you may come to quality. That requires time. That requires sincerity. But quality is there. Śravanādi śuddha citte karaye... It will be awakened. Not by force. Just like love between two persons, it cannot be forced. "You must love him. You must love her." Oh, that is no love. That is not love. When automatically you love one another, that is quality. Dora vede(?) prema. And therefore formerly, at least in the Indian society, at an early age they were married. There is no quality in that quality. But gradually, remaining together, the quality of love increases. Then the wife takes care of the husband, and the husband takes care. They become bound up, united in love. That is quality. In the beginning, what the child knows about love? No. But they are allowed to remain as husband and wife. They are thinking that "I have got my husband," "I have got my wife," and as the age increases, the dealings become intimate. Then they become affectionate. That is quality. Not in the beginning there is any quality. It is by the parents' arrangement. That's all. In our day, the marriage was performed when the girl is ten years, twelve years, nine years. Twelve years is very late marriage. My second sister, she became twelve years old. So my mother became so disturbed that "This girl is not being married. Shall I commit suicide?" Yes. You see? My eldest sister, she was nine years old, older than me, and she was married before my birth. And my mother-in-law was married at the age of seven years, and my father-in-law was eleven years. I was married... My wife was eleven years. So in this age there is no question of love. It is not that the husband and wife lives together, no. Unless the girl is grown up, she is not going to the husband. She remains with the father and mother. Sometimes they meet, and the wife is taught, giving some sweetmeat to the husband--official. Official. The parents of the girl: "Just go up to your husband and offer this." So she comes as obedient servant. But gradually they get the connection. In this way the love develops, and when they are fifteen, sixteen years old, they are allowed to live together. Because both of them have already developed that "She is my wife," "He is my husband," psychologically. And there was no question of divorce. The love is so strong, they cannot dream even that "I have to leave my wife," "I have to leave my husband." They cannot dream it. They may fight. The husband and wife fighting, that is not unusual. Therefore Canakya Paṇòita says, "Fight between the husband, wife, never take it seriously." Daṁpatye kalahe caiva baṁbhāraṁbhe laghu-kriya: "They'll make all arambha, but it is not very important. Don't take." Next moment they will again live peacefully. So according to Indian culture, there is no divorce. There is no question of divorce. Both the husband and wife, they cannot dream of divorce. The love was so strong. Even Gandhi's life, he fought with his wife and pushed her out of the house: "Get out, I don't want you." And Kasturabhai, she began to cry on the street, "Where shall I go? You have driven me away." Then Gandhi said, "Come on." Finished. (laughter) He has written in his life.

Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo saïjāyate. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim. This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time--he is not perfect--still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. (break)

Harikeśa: They let him stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire--"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"--another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?

Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect...

Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative.

Jïāna: What about like Mahārāja Bhārata?

Prabhupāda: That was also. If Mahārāja Bhārata... It was punishment and reward also. Mahārāja Bhārata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but "I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties." Mahārāja Bhārata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties. Therefore he was punished. But he remembered that "I was in such exalted position. On account of my attachment to the deer I have fallen." Therefore he rectified himself so that in his next life he became completely silent so that "I may not fall down," Jada Bhārata. This association, material association, is so dangerous, so he remained just like a dull madman. That's all. He was talking with nobody; he was not mixing with anybody. Whatever one would do, he did not protest, but his knowledge was full.

Devotee (7): Is there any difference in (indistinct) when somebody is chanting japa under the tree and someone who is chanting japa in the temple?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Brahmānanda: I think sometimes we recommend the devotees to chant their rounds in the temple rather than walk in other places.

Prabhupāda: Why one should walk other places? Who has said that you go out, walk other places? Never said.

Devotee (7): It may not really be necessary.

Prabhupāda: No. You should chant in the temple. Why should you go to other place?

Devotee (7): So there is no difference someone chanting out of the temple, in the temple.

Prabhupāda: Why you should go outside? Who has allowed him to go outside? Unless he has got some important business for the temple, why one should go to outside? There is no need. That is the chance of falling down. Why you should go outside? We are arranging for the temple, for the food. Why? Because everyone should stick to the temple and the principles. Why you should go to outside? That should be stopped. You cannot go outside.

Devotee (7): May we go to the shop to buy something?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is for temple's benefit or business. That is another thing. Somebody goes to sell books, somebody goes to make some life members. That is another thing. Otherwise one is not allowed at all. Not whimsically "I am going out." Why you are spoiling your men?

Devotee (9): Prabhupāda, sometimes I've seen devotees say that they did not like to chant in the temple room with the opposite...

Prabhupāda: Then that is a rascal. He is not a devotee. He is a rascal, when a devotee says... How you become devoted? If he does not like the temple and he thinks to be happy outside, what is he? What kind of devotee he is? He is not a devotee.

Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women."

Prabhupāda: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet paṇòit. Paṇòitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ. He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool.

Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make...

Prabhupāda: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's all. She is my mother." That's all. Matṛvāt para-dareṣu. Then what is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals.

Indian man (4): Some of our devotee goes to the other temple like Swami Nārāyaṇa and they want to see the ladies there, so then they are taking these instruction from them.

Prabhupāda: Our devotees go to Swami Nārāyaṇa?

Indian man (4): Yes, they go. Here our devotees, they went to Mombassa for, after Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. When I was not there, all of them went to Swami...

Prabhupāda: These things should be stopped. They leave their own temple and go to Swami Nārāyaṇa temple? Stop.

Indian man (4): They likes their lunch. They goes for lunch. Yes, that's true. All of them went without asking me. About five, six devotees, immediately from here went to Swami Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: So this should be rectified.

Indian man (4): And their theory is that... I asked (    ) Swami that "Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?" He said that, "We should avoid." But I said, "Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies." He said, "We turn our face to one side." I said, "First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning." (laughter) "You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know."

Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette.

Brahmānanda: You say like "Mother Rukmiṇī"? There's a devotee named Rukmiṇī. You say, "Mother Rukmiṇī"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother," and then the name of the devotee?

Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply.

Brahmānanda: Just "Mother."

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.

Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't.

Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.

Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji." "Matāji", "Pitaji," "Brataji," "Bahinji."

Prabhupāda: Or... And the woman says, "Beta."(?) That's all right.

Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we're accustomed to not like our mothers.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (5): In the West we don't like our mothers.

Prabhupāda: So you should forget your West or East. (break)

Brahmānanda: Similarly, wife should not be called "Mother."

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore it is said, "other's wife," not your wife. But Rāmakrishnan, he was saying his wife "mother," and he became famous by this foolishness.

Indian man (4): Rāmakrishnan, there are many like Shyāma mother. Her husband, he calls her "mother."

Prabhupāda: Just see. In the Brahma-samaj they call the wife as "sister," and the wife calls the husband "brother," address like that.

Indian man (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, since there is no distinction between "man" and "woman"--these are both designations--is it possible for a woman to become a brāhmaṇa?

Brahmānanda: Is it possible for a woman to become a brāhmaṇa?

Prabhupāda: He is... Woman is a brāhmaṇa's wife. Then she is automatically a brāhmaṇa.

Indian man (6): Suppose she doesn't want to get married for the rest of her life, just wants to serve the Lord?

Prabhupāda: So in his spiritual position everyone is a brāhmaṇa.

Brahmānanda: But you give brahminical initiation to unmarried women.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But on spiritual point she is brāhmaṇa. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction.

Devotee (7): Oh, it's not possible for a woman to become a sannyāsī.

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): What is the position of the woman in a..., late in life, the wife of a devotee?

Prabhupāda: What is that position?

Brahmānanda: After the husband takes sannyāsa?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Brahmānanda: What is the duties of the woman after the husband takes sannyāsa?

Prabhupāda: So remain a devotee, widow. She is not allowed to marry.

Indian man (4): I know, Prabhupāda, one of your Godsisters in Vṛndāvana. She is very old. She is staying in Tīrtha Mahārāja's maṭha. So she told me she took her initiation when she was about sixteen year old and still she stays in the temple and she... (break) ...say you're the most pious person on this planet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             November 3, 1975, Bombay                                                        412947

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not the fact. If you are actually spiritually advanced, you don't care for it. Deha smṛti nāhi yār saṁsāra bandhana kāhān tānra. It is just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. He had no spiritual... er, material con... He was eating every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all. How he was living in Vṛndāvana? So when one is perfectly on the spiritual platform, there is no bodily necessities. That is the sign. Therefore our civilization is to decrease the bodily necessities, not to increase. Control. Control, from the brahmacārī, control, control, control. Ultimately completely control. That is perfectional stage. Tyāgena. What is that verse?

Dr. Patel: Iśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kincid jagatyam...

Prabhupāda: No, tapasā brahmacāryena tyāgena yamena vā. This is wanted. Tapasa. Beginning. Tapasya means that controlling the senses. That is tapasya. And the tapasya begins...

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) ...brahma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasya means... Beginning is brahmācārya. Tapasā brahmacāryena. So where is brahmācārya?

Dr. Patel: Brahman prati ācarati āśā brahmacārī.(?) All the senses. Not only the upasthas, but all the ten senses, including your mind and the discriminating buddhi, all are directed toward serving feet of God, and then he does not... That is real brahmacārī.

Prabhupāda: That, yes. Devotee means brahmacārī. Pure devotee means brahmacārī. Anyabhilasita-sunyam. He has no other desire. That is brahmacārī.

 

Morning Walk                                            November 10, 1975, Bombay                                                       413652

Prabhupāda: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind.

Devotee (3): And steady intelligence, that is acquired by hearing? We can keep our intelligence steady by hearing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): But as soon as we stop hearing then the intelligence...

Prabhupāda: Mind is disturbed.

Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor dehopapatti. Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yogīnām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatāntarātmanā.

Devotee (3): So the jīva is still higher than the intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.

Devotee (3): And if he is to control his intelligence by hearing...

Prabhupāda: Hearing about Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (3): Hearing about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): But if his desire is not steady. For instance, if he...

Prabhupāda: If he hears about Kṛṣṇa, everything will be done nicely. śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa will help. And that is natural position, to hear about Kṛṣṇa, to act for Kṛṣṇa, to think of Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is the easiest process and genuine, without any failure. Ceto-darpana-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā- dāvāgni-nirvāpanam.

Devotee (3): When you say "genuine," that means that it works...

Prabhupāda: That is real spiritual activity. (aside:) Take it.

Devotee (3): So while one is chanting, he is automatically Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting means hearing Kṛṣṇa, and that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then acting. The more he chants, his dirty things in the heart becomes cleansed, and he acts for Kṛṣṇa's service.

Devotee (3): So the perfection, then, is to chant constantly.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (3): The perfection of chanting is to be chanting twenty- four hours.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Constantly.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. That is the injunction, sadā. Sadā means always.

Devotee (3): Well, if one is not able to do that in the beginning... For instance, if during twenty-four hours...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Kṛṣṇa's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Kṛṣṇa. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Kṛṣṇa. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandha. When it is connected with Kṛṣṇa it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridāsa Öhākura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Kṛṣṇa." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Kṛṣṇa.

Yaśomatīnandana: Many people say... When we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa they say, "We chant in our minds. You don't have to chant loudly. You don't have to show off. We chant in our minds. We're always thinking about Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Even Dr. Patel when we sometimes tell him "Please chant."

Prabhupāda: Dr. Patel is learning if he says. We haven't got to hear from Dr. Patel but from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ, twenty-four hours' chanting.

Lokanātha: Is it possible to chant within one's mind?

Prabhupāda: Chant means that your tongue must be engaged, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." That is chanting. Real chanting...

Brahmānanda: Sevonmukhe...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jihvādau, yes. Chant means you must vibrate your tongue. That is chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is never said, "You chant within the mind." Where it is said? These are their manufacture to avoid. That's all.

Yaśomatīnandana: Then, when we get into deep discussion, then they say, "Whatever I am working is for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa." So ultimately they admit that actually it is not the person Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No. In bhakti...

Yaśomatīnandana: But they are thinking themselves Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is not bhakti. Everything is going on for Kṛṣṇa. That is fact. But that is not bhakti. Bhakti is different thing. Bhakti is anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanam. Never says, "Whatever you do, it is everything is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is all right." Never said. anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanam. What Kṛṣṇa accepts, that is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa accepts... Everyone is thinking... That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So "Everthing is Kṛṣṇa," that is all right, but when you think particularly of Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa...

Indian man (4): Now it may say everybody had.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (4): Because those people, even trees have gone...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Indian man (4): Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct) to serve.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll chant, such politician, "Jinna-bhai! Jhinna-bhai!" They will chant like that, (laughter) rascals. But as soon as you ask them, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "No, it can be done within the mind." (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. For some "Jhinna-bhai," for a dead leader, "Jhinna-bhai," as if he will come to life. (laughter) You see, this nonsense is going on. And as soon as you, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "We can do it within mind." Therefore they're all rascals, narādhama. (break) ...never do the right thing. Always commit mistake and suffer. (break) Guru-mukha-padma-vākya. It is never said that "You can chant whatever you heard from all nonsense." Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariya aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā. So repeatedly you are talking. (break)

Lokanātha: Prabhupāda, why we have chosen this sixteen as a number to chant the rounds?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: Why not less or more?

Prabhupāda: We have fixed up sixteen?

Lokanātha: We are chanting sixteen.

Prabhupāda: No. We say "Minimum sixteen." Minimum.

Lokanātha: Why that sixteen minimum?

Prabhupāda: If you can, sixteen thousand you can go. Sixteen rounds is the minimum. But if you are able to chant sixteen thousand rounds, that is welcome. We have got so much engagement. Still, we say, "We don't find engagement." This is our misfortune. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Haridāsa Öhākura was engaged in chanting and the prostitute came. She offered, "Let us enjoy." "Yes, let me finish. Let me finish this chanting." So much engagement, and still, we say, "No engagement." He refused to have sex with a beautiful young girl because he had engagement. "First of all let me finish my engagement," and we say we have no engagement. How unfortunate we are. (break) ...says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Twenty-four-hours engagement He has given, and we see there is no engagement.

Lokanātha: Some devotees have fixed different number than sixteen. Some are chanting twenty minimum or twenty-five.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It should be increased.

Lokanātha: Is it recommended for our...

Prabhupāda: But don't decrease. Don't decrease; increase. Therefore one number is fixed. "At least this much I shall do." That is sixteen rounds.

Lokanātha: But you are recommending sixteen as a minimum, and some devotees are choosing twenty as a minimum.

Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Who says that "Don't do it"?

Lokanātha: They can chant?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. But because you cannot do it, therefore we have fixed up this minimum. Saìkhyāta asaìkhyāta Saìkhyāta means with vow, numerical strength. And asaìkhyāta means there is no limit. (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: ...are higher than any other activities or they are on the same platform? Any activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Is chanting the most exalted or...?

Prabhupāda: Everything is exalted. Therefore there are nine processes. śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam, so many. They are all exalted.

Yaśomatīnandana: So why is it recommended, chanting in this age particularly?

Prabhupāda: Suppose if you have no temple, so you cannot perform arcana. So this is common, greatest common. It is not that because you have no temple, therefore your devotional service is stopped. There are other processes. You can do. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Lokanātha: Prabhupāda? If we chant more than sixteen rounds, so how can we know whether we are imitating Haridāsa Öhākura or following his footsteps?

Prabhupāda: Imitation is also good. If you imitate Haridāsa Öhākura, that is also your great fortune, even if you imitate. (break) imitating, it does not mean you are condemned. Even if you imitate, that is also good. (break) If you have some other business and if you say, "Now I am imitating Haridāsa Öhākura, I cannot do it," that is very bad. "I am busy in imitating Haridāsa Öhākura." That is not good. That is very bad. (break)

Brahmānanda: If the devotees are asked for service they say, "Oh, I have to chant."

Prabhupāda: "I am imitating." Yes. "I am imitating Haridāsa. This is my first business." That is very bad. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                           November 11, 1975, Bombay                                                        413817

Indian man (2): ...of anecdote where gopīs, you know? When gopīs' dress were taken by Kṛṣṇa, He wanted these gopīs to give away all their humility and humbleness, to show everything. "Then only, unless you surrender to Me, you cannot have any salvation." So when they took out all their dress and then went prayed before Him without any dress, then only they have become muktas. Like that Draupadi also. When Duhsasana...

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī interpretation.

Indian man (2): No, that is what I...

Prabhupāda: Why should you interpret? Gopīs prayed Kṛṣṇa and all the Katyāyanī devīs that "Let Kṛṣṇa become our husband." So Kṛṣṇa fulfilled their desire because a woman can become naked only before husband. That is the purport, no other interpretation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when that so many gopīs called, "So you wanted Me as your husband? All right, I become your husband." That's all. Because for a woman there is no shame before husband. So this was acceptance of husband. And so far renouncing everything, they had already done that. Therefore we take everything, śāstra, as it is, no interpretation. Then, simply by making oneself naked, he would have gone to Vṛndāvana. They interpret. These Māyāvādīs, they interpret in so many ways just to make the statement of Bhāgavata story. This is their real purpose. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Without being liberated, can anyone expect to become wife of Kṛṣṇa? They were already liberated. These interpretation are there only to minimize the value of Kṛṣṇa and the value of gopīs. Māyāvāda bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nāśa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has warned, "If you hear the comments by the Māyāvādīs, then you are finished."

Harikeśa: Why do people use spiritual things for material enjoyment when material enjoyment is available by itself?

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. It looks like material; it is not material. Completely spiritual. Your body is moving on spiritual strength, but you have no eyes to see spiritual strength. You see the body. And when the spirit goes away, you cry, "My father has gone away." "Why my father has"...? "Your father is there. The body is there." So you have no spiritual vision: therefore you are thinking that gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is also material. Avajānanti māṁ mūòha. This is mūòha's business. They are thinking spiritual activities of Kṛṣṇa as material. That is avajānanti. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Paraṁ bhāvam, the spiritual activities, they do not know. Therefore it is forbidden for materialistic person to hear about gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. It is forbidden, that's all, because the rascal will take it as material. (break) ... Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī and other Gosvāmīs, they left everything in the material world. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇòala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha... They gave up everything. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna, gopī- bhāvāmṛta... Then, in Vṛndāvana, they were thinking of the gopīs' līlā. So after giving up all these things, again they were thinking of material things? Gopī-bhāvāmṛtābdhi-lahari-kallola- magnau. So they were thinking of gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. So after giving up everything material, again material? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ramyād kaścid upāsanā vraja-vadhubhir yā kalpitā. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after so much renunciation, so much vairāgya and strict following the sannyāsa rule, again He is recommending gopī? This is foolishness. Gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is completely spiritual. They do not understand. They think it is material. Therefore it is better not to go there. First of all become experienced in spiritual life; then try to understand gopīs' līlā.

Devotee (3): (break) You were speaking about the blind person who is thinking that he can see. He is in illusion. How can we best convince him that he is not able to see?

Prabhupāda: You have to convince him that "Your eyes are imperfect." Then you can tell, "Just close your eyes. Can you see the eyelid? It closes, but you cannot see. Why? You have got eyes. When there is some particle in the eye, so close and find out where is the particle. Why making this way, this way, this way? So what is the value of your eyes? This is the proof. You cannot see even your eyelids. So why do... Why you are so much proud of seeing?" Is it not?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is conviction. He can say that "I cannot see on account of distant place, the planet," but you see the nearest. So you cannot see distant place things and you cannot see nearest. Then what is the value of your eyes? That means you can see only under certain condition. So condition is offered by somebody else. Therefore you are conditioned. Your seeing is conditioned, because it is not absolute. So how do you believe your eyes? Hm?

Devotee (3): The vision of the eyes is imperfect. We have to see by intelligence, from the authority...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not intelligence; that is fact. Intelligence you should have that "However I can perceive by the senses, the senses being imperfect, all our perceptions are imperfect." That is intelligence.

Devotee (3): :Then one may ask, "Well, how do I recognize that this is the bona fide authority?"

Prabhupāda: :Who authorized? Another rascal, that's all. He's a rascal. Another rascal... Just like sva-vid-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. A lion is being praised by the rabbit in the jungle. The rabbit is also animal; lion is also. So what is the use of lion being praised by a rabbit? If a lion is praised by a rabbit, does it mean lion is more than animal? So similarly, these so-called scientists, big men, they are being praised by small rascals. That does not mean on account of praising, he has become more than animal. He remains animal.

Devotee (3): :We see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they see Him as a common man like themselves also.

Prabhupāda: :Therefore they are mūòhas. Avajānanti māṁ mūòhāḥ. Only the mūòhas can deride. Avajānanti māṁ mūòhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ. It is stated already.

Devotee (3): :Then how is it that some people do finally come to accept Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They come in the paramparā system, through guru. Tad-vijïānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet. Therefore you have to go to guru to understand. You cannot understand personally. That is not possible. Therefore our system is to see through the guru and śāstra, not by these naked eyes. That is misleading.

Devotee (3): Then the key would be to recognize and appreciate the importance of the guru.

Prabhupāda: Parampara. Guru is also not authority by himself. He is authority by his guru, paramparā. If he is coming in the paramparā system, then he is guru. Otherwise he's not guru. Just like what we are doing? We are simply repeating the Kṛṣṇa's word. That's all. Therefore guru. And as soon as I make addition or alteration, I am goru

Harikeśa: Goru means?

Prabhupāda: Goru means cow, animal. Go-kharaḥ. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. The go-kharaḥ, these animals have been, I mean, exemplified because these two animals work for others very heavily. The bull also loads heavily, and the ass also loads very heavily for others, not for his own benefit. The bull is working day and night and being whipped... (end)

Morning Walk                                            November 20, 1975, Bombay                                                       415346

Prabhupāda: The Germans.

Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that...

Prabhupāda: They understood from the Germans.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Hitler knew it.

Dr. Patel: No. They were not able to be successful to...

Prabhupāda: No, no. He knew it, everything, but he did not like to do it. He said. He said. He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that "I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon." The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it. And all the, your American, other countries, they have stolen from German ideas.

Dr. Patel: I think, sir, German scientists ran away during the wartime to America.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of them went to Russia, some of them--(aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa--to America.

Brahmānanda: The German scientists, they went to America. But the plans for these things were left in Germany and the Russians came. The Russians got the plans, the Americans got the scientists.

Dr. Patel: I see. So the Russians, I mean, scientists produced from the plan the bomb.

Brahmānanda: That's why the Americans got it first, because they had the scientists.

Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation.

Prabhupāda: No, more scientists were there in Germany.

Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our Vedas and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them.

Prabhupāda: That is also fact.

Dr. Patel: And one Śaìkarācārya--I don't know which--who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one śloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences.

Indian man (2): This is fact?

Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (break) ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akāśa-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on.

Dr. Patel: We have in Mahābhārata, that, I mean, Bhima threw away those elephants and rowing in the sky. And when Parīkṣit thought "How could it be?" then that elephants came down in the story. That means they were rowing about just like sputniks of today, perhaps. I don't know how they might have...

Prabhupāda: No, three books they have taken. They paid some eight lakhs of rupees. That Mr. Badhuri told me. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: That means this civilization must have felt the pangs of the modern sciences and then they must have lost it. No?

Prabhupāda: Not lost. It is there. You don't take it. That's it. What is there? One who can read... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Good boy.

Harikesa: They couldn't chant those mantras though, could they? If they tried... Even if they tried, they wouldn't be able to chant the mantras.

Prabhupāda: Why? Nobody taught them. You are chanting. How you are chanting? Nobody taught them. That is the difficulty.

Jayapataka: Why the Germans are good Sanskrit scholars? Why?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they had very good tendency for learning Sanskrit to know so many things. That was their research. They knew it that in Sanskrit language there are so many wonderful things.

Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they say that in American universities also, many universities have started teaching Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In every school, every college, every university, there is Sanskrit. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Dr. Patel: ...was the real man who, when he started studying Vedas, he realized that in Sanskrit language there is a huge literature of great importance. He spread the things in Germany. No, he was staying in England.

Prabhupāda: By international scholars' meeting these diacritic marks were discovered for studying Sanskrit. The diacritic marks which we use, that is international agreement of Sanskrit scholars.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. Those marks. A, and a and u and ai and these dots. Yes, that is international. Nobody can claim. That is long back, sir. I think Max Muller's time.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: There were so many scholars, even in Paris, Germany, and Italy.

Prabhupāda: Professor Roe and Webb, they were professor in Presidency College when we were school children. They admitted Sanskrit is the mother of all languages.

Dr. Patel: In fact, Persian is the first letter of Sanskrit which looks like that. When you study Persian, so many words--Sanskrit directly taken Persian. In the Russian language, I mean, so many words are there of Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: No, whole world you'll find Sanskrit. The first word, mother and father, that is Sanskrit, matri and pitri.

Yaśomatīnandana: Ha, everywhere. Everywhere starts like that, all the languages.

Dr. Patel: Jïā, to know, from that, knowledge, jïā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. (break)

Brahmānanda: ...mother is "mere" and father is "pere."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...is madri? Ba, pha.

Brahmānanda: In Spanish, father is "padre."

Dr. Patel: Latin and Sanskrit are more or less common. They have got those sapta-vibhaktīs in Latin also.

Prabhupāda: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Dr. Patel: The cow from... Gao from cow, and cow from gao. No? It is absolutely not..., so very easy.

Prabhupāda: We are Kṛṣṇian, and they are Christian. There is similarity.

Dr. Patel: Nomenclature. Christ was really a bhāgavata, I mean, in a true sense.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhāgavata.

Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhāgavata-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhāgavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatāra.

Prabhupāda: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.

Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he...

Prabhupāda: No, even by yoga system...

Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance.

Prabhupāda: He lived by trance.

Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it.

Prabhupāda: By trance.

Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity.

 

Morning Walk                                             November 21, 1975, Bombay                                                      415541

Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.

Prabhupāda: Civilization means advance from animal life.

Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.

Prabhupāda: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.

Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.

Prabhupāda: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.

Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal.

Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo.

Prabhupāda: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group.

Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...

Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anārya juṣṭam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani (indistinct) bhūtāni jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.

Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent.

Prabhupāda: Hm? We don't say.

Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it.

Prabhupāda: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected.

Dr. Patel: Hm?

Prabhupāda: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it.

Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known.

Prabhupāda: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans.

Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Patala bhumī means just opposite the eastern hemisphere.

Yaśomatī-nandana: Just opposite the?

Prabhupāda: Eastern hemisphere.

Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. (break)

Yaśomatī-nandana: ...that Rāvaṇa's brother, Mahirāvaṇa, was in...

Prabhupāda: Brazil.

Yaśomatī-nandana: Brazil?

Prabhupāda: Yes. From the description it appears.

Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of...

Prabhupāda: By Suranga.(?)

Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia.

Prabhupāda: Underground.

Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past.

Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way.

Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: (break) ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on.

Prabhupāda: Islam is also...

Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism.

Brahmānanda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is right.

Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa.

Prabhupāda: Today the whole world is dominated by demons.

Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one...

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brāhmaṇa can be generated to Rāvaṇa state.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Aryan culture.

yasya hi yad lakṣanaṁ

proktaṁ varṇābhivyaïjakam

yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiṣet

That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Nārada. Yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiṣet. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brāhmaṇa, they are brāhmaṇa. This is Aryan culture.

Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin.

Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing.

                                                                                                                                                                              415643

Mahāṁsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart saìkīrtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Why?

Mahāṁsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no professional driver?

Mahāṁsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is success. People were coming.

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kīrtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kīrtana together.

Prabhupāda: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prediction, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi.

Mahāṁsa: Grāma, yes.

Prabhupāda: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.

Mahāṁsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day.

Prabhupāda: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it.

Mahāṁsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax.

Prabhupāda: They want money, that's all.

Mahāṁsa: So they want to encourage.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now they're bringing prohibition.

Mahāṁsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now.

Prabhupāda: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. If the government simply prohibits these four things--meat-eating, and drinking, gambling, and illicit sex--the whole country will change immediately.

Mahāṁsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Mahāṁsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did he reply?

Mahāṁsa: No, he never replied.

Prabhupāda: This animal civilization, go-kharaḥ, is going as civilization--drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling.

Yaśomatī-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either.

Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes, drinking.

Prabhupāda: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes.

Mahāṁsa: Yes. Molasses.

Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold.

Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then.

Prabhupāda: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand.

Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of...

Prabhupāda: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we can return. (break) ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson.

Devotee (2): What is that?

Prabhupāda: Kejiya? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Yan-maithunādi gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. (break)

Mahāṁsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.

Prabhupāda: So your invested money is realized?

Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.

Prabhupāda: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.

Mahāṁsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.

Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam daily. So they are coming for kīrtana?

Mahāṁsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...

Prabhupāda: Organize.

Mahāṁsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits.

Prabhupāda: Then how we are going to organize?

Mahāṁsa: Well, Haṁsadūta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.

Prabhupāda: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.

Mahāṁsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.

Prabhupāda: Train them, train them.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To give a manager right way, Haṁsadūta said.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can give a manager for the farm.

Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.

Prabhupāda: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasādam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasādam? Every day there must be huge prasādam distribution.

Mahāṁsa: Many people?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasāda distribution. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...thing produced, that should be used as prasādam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?

Mahāṁsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's fine.

Mahāṁsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers.

Prabhupāda: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasādam and chant.

Mahāṁsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm.

Prabhupāda: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth.

Devotee (2): Oh, yes.

Mahāṁsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?

Mahāṁsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter.

Girirāja: For two dhotīs you'd need fifteen rupees.

Prabhupāda: Fifty?

Girirāja: Fifteen.

Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Yes.

Girirāja: For the good quality.

Prabhupāda: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?

Prabhupāda: Banana leaf.

Harikesa: Cooking utensils.

Brahmānanda: Clay cups.

Prabhupāda: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots.

 

Morning Walk                                            November 24, 1975, Bombay                                                       415765

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is suffering on this misconception. The horse also. As soon as it gets on somebody on his back he become jubilant immediately. This is the nature. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya--nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. (break) ...vantam eva caran nirāntara prasanta-niḥśeṣa-mano-rathāntaram, kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiìkara praharsayiśyāmi sanātha jīvitam. This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration. Bhavantam eva caran nirāntaram: "Twenty-four hours simply carrying Your orders." And you can do it. But it is not possible. The mind is checking. Prasanta-niḥśeṣa mano-rathāntaram. Unless one's mind is fixed up, he cannot become servant of God. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiìkara. "In this way, when I shall be absolutely Your servant and live very joyfully, that 'I have got my master.'?" This is Yamunacārya's verse.

                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                        415793

Prabhupāda: That saṁskāra is now stopped; therefore all of them are animals. Yes. (break) The murgis, [chickens] they are in the cowshed?

Dr. Patel: That man who is looking after cows, he must be keeping.

Prabhupāda: For andha? [eggs].

Dr. Patel: For everything. They... Even the murgis. Nowadays this meat-eating has become very widespread in India. Even brāhmaṇas are eating meat. I don't mean those who have gone to Europe or America and come back, but people who are staying here. Extremely common.

Prabhupāda: That is the sign that in very near future there will be no food grains. That is the sign. There will be no rice, no wheat, main food grain.

Yaśomatīnandana: Already in Bombay it's about six, seven rupees per kilo, rice.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Dr. Patel: No, no. Now rice will be very much down. In Gujarat it is two rupees. I bought some land here and sown the rice. We are going to get about eight hundred or a thousand mounds of rice. And when we sown the field it was sixty rupees, rice. Today it is thirty-two rupees. It is coming down. The crop is very good everywhere, all over India this year.

Prabhupāda: Because there was sufficient rain.

Dr. Patel: Very good rain, yes. Gujarat will be more than self-sufficient. It is already the richest part of this country.

Prabhupāda: Parjanyāt.

Dr. Patel: Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavati bhūtāni. It is...

Prabhupāda: This is cycle. Perform yajïa and everything will come. They have stopped yajïa... Therefore harināma-yajïa, this is the yajïa.

Dr. Patel: Viṣṇu... Viṣṇur vai yajïaḥ. Viṣṇu Himself is yajïa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): (break) ...saying that it is because of our chanting twenty-four hours a day that there is more rain this year.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Hyderabad they also say. For six or seven years there was no rain. Now it is raining. This is practical. (break) ...yanti bhūtāni.

Devotee in distance: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Who is that? Old man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) (break) ...has died. His grandson is maintaining.

Dr. Patel: (break) ...yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Not for sense gratification. Then you will suffer. But they are all working for sense gratification, not yajïārthe. Yajnārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Tad arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saìgaḥ samācara.

Prabhupāda: Samācara.

Dr. Patel: But here, sir, parjanyād anna sambhavaḥ. There, yajïad bhavati bhūtāni, yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ, karma brahmodbhava viddhi brahmākṣara-samudbhavam. That means karma as ordained by the scriptures, brahmodbhavam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is karma. Otherwise vikarma. But they are doing vikarma. Nunaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. This is vikarma, anyone working hard day and night for sense gratification. That means sinful, vikarma.

Dr. Patel: And if you don't do the ordained karmas, it is akarma. No. It is akarma.

Prabhupāda: Karma means according to the śāstra's direction.

Dr. Patel: But if you don't do that, that becomes akarma.

Prabhupāda: Vikarma.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Akarma means...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Akarma means no resultant action. When it is done for Viṣṇu...

Dr. Patel: Then it becomes akarma.

Prabhupāda: Akarma.

Dr. Patel: Akarma. But akarma, this... This bhāṣya of Rāmānujācārya, he says akarma means knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge, that is knowledge, that "I have to work for Viṣṇu." That is knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Akarma means knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                     November 25, 1975, Delhi                                                         415836

Prabhupāda: ...this society. Only the important men, they can live as gṛhastha. Not that "Now I am in love with this girl and get me married and yajïa and then sleep." These things should be stopped. That, that what is his name, the rascal's name, that, whom you have driven away?

Devotee (1): Srnghadi(?).

Prabhupāda: Srnghadi?

Devotee (1): Śrīnati.

Prabhupāda: Śrīnati.(?) From his face it appears that he's woman hunter. Did he talk with you?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So in every center they must rise early in the morning. They must follow the regulative principles. They must attend class. Otherwise let them go out. We don't want. And if anyone wants to marry, first of all he must show that he has some earning capacity. Not that "Because there are so many girls, and I marry one to satisfy my senses..." I thought that boy was nice, and I heard all these stories. That is also another defect, that we have got young boys and young girls open for lovemaking. And brahmacārī means strictly prohibited to see the face of woman. But we cannot stop it. That is also another defect. Fire is good and butter is good, but when they come together everything become bad. Is it not? Fire is good, just like heat. And butter is good, healthy. But when they come together the butter melts and the fire extinguished. This is māyā's arrangement. Puṁsa striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. This whole world is going on by the sex attraction, and when they come together both of them become spoiled. Therefore it has to be dealt with very, very carefully, so many rules, regulation. (break) ...used, Nitāi?

Nitāi: Whenever there is necessity.

Prabhupāda: Compulsory.

Nitāi: Compulsory. When there's rule, vidhi.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, vrajet, "must." Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. At least let us inform the whole world that the process of civilization, education, everything rotten. That we have to say. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                          November 26, 1975, New Delhi                                                     416011

Harikeśa: It's a college. It's a girls' college.

Prabhupāda: (break) How to kill child. This is education. Huh? Educated girl means how to divorce husband, how to kill child. Is it not? Educated, modern educated girl means how to become unfaithful to the husband, how to divorce and how to kill child.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How to get equal rights.

Prabhupāda: No, equal rights, that's all right. This is the education. The uneducated girls do not do this. (break)

Harikeśa: This is very funny.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Harikeśa: It says, "Invincible are the Korean people who are rallied firmly with one ideology and will under the brilliant rays of the immortal juch (?) idea of Comrade..."

Prabhupāda: All ideals.

Indian man (6): This is South Korea or North Korea?

Harikeśa: South, I think.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Harikeśa: They are becoming very advanced, making big skyscrapers.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a big hotel.

Prabhupāda: Hotel? Oh.

Tejās: Hotel and office.

Prabhupāda: Those who are not cooperating...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They should be asked to leave.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must cooperate.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) The problem that these foreign, some of these foreign devotees that have come lately, they have been such loose devotees that the temple presidents, they want to get rid of them; they are sending them to India. Three people came from Rūpānuga's zone; and they were all useless devotees. They won't listen. They just ran away from Bombay. So I wrote a very strong letter to Rūpānuga Prabhu. I said, you know, they should screen the devotees before they send them to India. What they are doing is they are sending their rejected devotees to India. If any devotee is not good in their zone they say, "Okay, we'll send them to India." But here we have such big projects that we need devotees who will follow the rules strictly and who will listen to authorities.

Prabhupāda: So tell them. If they have rejected and you also reject them, where they will go? Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we will train them, but these devotees don't cooperate very much. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                November 29, 1975, Delhi                                                         416133

Prabhupāda: No. Indians economical backwards because they have given up their own culture. When India was actually standing on the old culture, they were never defeated. Even the Mohammedans, they ruled over India for eight hundred years, but they could not defeat the Indian culture. But the British government are clever. They spoiled the Indian culture. Therefore they arepoverty-stricken. Otherwise if India would have continued in his own culture... The Gandhi started the boycott movement. So Indian culture automatically boycotted anything foreign. We know in our childhood nothing foreign-made could be used in some ceremony. Even this cloth, it must be country-made, that, what is called?

Haṁsadūta: Khadi.

Prabhupāda: Khadi, yes. No mill-made cloth can be used. That was Indain culture. They would not touch even foreign medicine. Dr. Bose, Kartick Chandra Bose, he told me that "You do not know how much we had to flatter to accept this British medicine." They would not touch quinine, anything foreign-made. This was Indian culture.

Harikeśa: Well, the basic flaw with Indian culture is that some people are very rich and some people are very poor.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then why in your country there are hippies lying on the street? Why? Why they have accepted poverty?

Harikeśa: That's a temporary thing.

Prabhupāda: India is poor and rich, and why they are voluntarily poor?

Harikeśa: That was because they were all intoxicated.

Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that there is no poor. There is voluntarily poor. You cannot say there is no poor.

Harikeśa: Well, in our Russian system we are trying to abolish that poor by making, take money from the rich.

Prabhupāda: Again that, "We are trying to abolish," the postdated check again.

Ambarīṣa: In Russia, everyone is poor.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor.

Harikeśa: But at least they're equal.

Prabhupāda: Well, when you become poor, then naturally it is equal. There is no rich man. Naturally you become equal. If everyone is fool, then everyone is equal. That's all.

Harikeśa: But everybody in Russia is so strong.

Prabhupāda: What is that strong?

Ambarīṣa: They can lift all kinds of weight and fight very strongly. Very strong people. So they're not starving.

Prabhupāda: No, no, they are stronger than the lions and the elephant? Are they stronger than these animals? Are they? Are the Russians stronger than the elephant and the lion?

Harikeśa: But they're stronger than the Europeans.

Prabhupāda: Then the lion is better than them. The elephant is better than them. Why do you call them, "They are animals"? They are better situated. One lion can kill hundreds of Russians. Then lion is better than the Russian? You have to accept that.

Harikeśa: I mean, but they're not poor because they're so, you know, they're well fed.

Prabhupāda: There everyone is poor, begging. You are talking theoretically. I went to Moscow. The taxi driver was wanting something excess. They are so poor, begging, "Give me something more." They are so poor. Most of the people, they are walking on the street. There is no taxi. Nobody can pay for taxi. This is their situation.

Harikeśa: Yes, but why should somebody be rich and I be poor? What gives him the right to have money?

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. That is called, that... He is born in a rich family; I am born in a poor family. So why this is happening?

Harikeśa: Yes, that's unfair. I mean, I should take his money.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not unfair. This is nature's arrangement, uccavacca. Why one has become animal? Why one has become man? The same living entity.

Harikeśa: Chance.

Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom, "chance." Who is making this chance? Can I make you by chance a dog? That is not possible. There is no such chance. It is by karma-phala. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ. The chance is that you are rascal, fool; you do not know what chance will make me what. Just like you infect some disease; you suffer from that disease. So this happens to the rascal. One who is intelligent, he does not infect. He is always cautious. Therefore this chance of infection is not there. Actually you cannot say "chance." It is your ignorance. You create chance. Because you do not know what will happen after something, on account of ignorance it is chance. But if you are fully aware, there is no question of chance. An intelligent student, he does not think, "By chance I may be passed." He reads properly. He appears in the examination, give the proper answer. It is not chance. And if he thinks, "All right, by chance I will be passing the..." Is it very intelligent? These rascals are talking like that. There is no question of chance. On account of ignorance they commit something infectious, and they suffer. And because they cannot explain, they say it is chance. It is not chance. It is due to some cause.

 

Morning Walk                                          December 10, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     416661

Prabhupāda: The rascals should not do that. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says, nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kārye. You do your work but take shelter of harinama. That is wanted.

Devotee (1): So simple.

Prabhupāda: So simple, yes. (Bengali) Nāmāśraya kari, thākaha āpana karye. "Go on with your duty, prescribed duty, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (break)

Akṣayānanda: I was recently told by one devotee that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: What?

Akṣayānanda: That the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: Who is that rascal?

Akṣayānanda: Well, he said it. Who said it?

Prabhupāda: Who said? Who is that rascal? The ācārya does not require to be a pure devotee?

Akṣayānanda: He said it. Nitāi said it. He said it in this context. He said that Lord Brahma is the ācārya in the Brahma-sampradāya, but yet he is sometimes afflicted by passion. So therefore he is saying that it appears that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee. So it does not seem right.

Prabhupāda: So who is that rascal? I want to know who has said.

Akṣayānanda: Nitāi. Nitāi dāsa.

Harikeśa: Nitāi said that?

Prabhupāda: Who is Nitāi dāsa?

Harikeśa: Our Nitāi.

Akṣayānanda: Nitāi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, our Nitāi? Oh.

Akṣayānanda: He said he couldn't understand it, but he thought, he said that he thought...

Prabhupāda: He manufactured his idea. Therefore he's a rascal. Therefore he's a rascal. Nitāi has become an authority?

Akṣayānanda: No, actually he said that he thought...

Prabhupāda: He thought something rascaldom, and he is expressing that. Therefore he is more rascal. These things are going on. As soon as he reads some books, he becomes an ācārya, whatever rascal he may be.

Akṣayānanda: So there's no doubt that Lord Brahma is a pure devotee?

Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, he is ācārya. So you... Then Kṛṣṇa is also passionate. Kṛṣṇa is also passionate. Kṛṣṇa danced with so many gopīs; therefore He is passionate. They... These things are to be seen in this way, that "Such exalted person, he sometimes become passionate, so how much we shall be careful." This is the instruction. Then we petty things, petty persons, how much we shall be careful. It is not that "Ācārya has become passionate, therefore I shall become passionate. I am strict followers of ācārya." These rascals say.

Harisauri: So Lord Brahma's being attracted to his daughter, that is just as an example...

Prabhupāda: So why you discuss this? Therefore you shall be attracted with your daughter, mother? Do you think so, like that?

Akṣayānanda: No.

Indian man: In this world this is our disease. This is our disease.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That disease... Brahma... Lord Śiva also, he was attracted to the Mohinī. So they are īśvara. They are controllers. So the instruction is that even such personalities may be sexually attracted, so how much we shall remain careful. This is the instruction. (break) ...like the other rascal. Who was saying that "Kṛṣṇa was killed by a hunter; therefore hunter is greater than Kṛṣṇa"?

Indian man: Raja Gopalācārya, he has written in Mahābhārata that Kṛṣṇa was killed by a hunter.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the hunter is...

Indian man: "Kṛṣṇa Passes Away," the heading of his chapter.

Harikeśa: You said about a couple of years ago that "What ordinary man would be killed if he was shot in the arrow by a heel," I mean, "shot in the heel by an arrow?" No ordinary man dies that way.

Prabhupāda: So who reads Raja Gopalācārya's Mahābhārata? (laughter) They are rotting at Bharatiya Vidyabhavan.

Akṣayānanda: They're rotting in the bookshelves and the insects are eating.

Indian man: But in Somanath... I went last year there when I was in Gujarat. The people, they don't believe, the people of Somanath, that he was killed by... like that. So these philosophers, simply for their name, they put some kind of theories so that people can, "Oh!" They can understand all this nonsense. (break)

Prabhupāda: These pastimes of Kṛṣṇa is to make the fools more fool. One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man, Kṛṣṇa is playing this part to show them, "Yes, see. I am dying, this. You see."

Indian man: What He said? Avajānanti mā mūòhāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Mūòha janmani janmani. He'll remain mūòha janmani janmani. This is this pastime. Life after life, he shall remain a fool, rascal. So this Raja Gopalācārya and company, they'll remain in darkness life after life. For them this pastime is there. Avajānanti mā mūòh mānusīm tanum āśritaḥ: "The rascals, they think of Me as ordinary human being." To such rascals, He is playing like: "Yes, you see I am ordinary human being. Just see. I am dying." This is... To keep them life after life in darkness. If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, that He is dying--Acchā. "I have read it. I have seen. He has died." Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām? Out of many millions of persons one can understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying this? If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is doing, what for He is doing, then everyone could understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu? This requires intelligence.

Indian man: Bahūnā janmanām.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā: "One who knows, go and understand from them, from the guru." Don't make your interpretation, rascal. You shall remain always a rascal. Then what is the use of all these verses? If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa then why Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya: "Then you will understand. Go to the right person who has seen."

 

Morning Walk                                          December 11, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     416844

Akṣayānanda Swami: Of course we accept, ah, when you tell us to chant sixteen rounds, we accept that figure as being, in perfect faith, that you're the ācārya, but ah, what if others we wanted to convince, is there any, any ah, śāstr... Is there any Vedic verse we can refer to to corroborate that at least they must chant sixteen rounds. Or that many number of names?

Prabhupāda: No. In the śāstra it is not said like that...

Akṣayānanda Swami: I see.

Prabhupāda: It is said, śaìkhy-pūrvakaḥ...

Akṣayānanda Swami: Śaìkhy-pūrvakaḥ.

Prabhupāda: You must fix up.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Counting.

Prabhupāda: You must fix up in numerical strength.

Akṣayānanda Swami: I see.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you can.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But I have fixed up sixteen rounds, because you cannot do.

Akṣayānanda Swami: That's all we can do.

Prabhupāda: (smiling, touch of irony) Yes. That also is difficult.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, Haridāsa Öhākura was chanting 300,000. So, That is not possible. You should not imitate, but whatever you fix up you must do.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. I was told in the beginning you asked the first disciples to chant 64 rounds?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked them to chant 32?

Prabhupāda: (grinning) Hm.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Śaìkhy-pūrvaka nāma-gaṇa-natibhiḥ. Śaìkhya purva, or numerical strength must be there. And you should follow rigidly.

Akṣayānanda Swami: So if, if we are serious and sincere, it means that that sixteen will increase to, ah, to continuously chanting.

Prabhupāda: You can do also now. It's not that because I've finished sixteen rounds...

Akṣayānanda Swami: No.

Prabhupāda: You can increase. But that sixteen must be finished.

Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. (pause) What I mean is, that's to bring us to the platform of chanting constantly. That at least we do that numerical number, finally we may be able to do, if we're fortunate to chant constantly day and night.

 

 

No, no, your production.... You should make production for your necessity.

 

Oh, that's nice. Chick pea, chapati, gur--first class. (laughter) And milk.

 

A devotee will never accept materialism, even if he dies of starvation.

 

Vedic conception is that the birds and beasts, they should not be driven away. Let them eat as much as it like. They must eat also.

 

...possible for us to challenge the whole world that "You are all fools." Huh? Is it possible?

 

…You have to prove them fools by practical.

 

How they are bringing ruination. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. The blind men led by another blind man.

 

Saṁskāra means correction. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda- pāṭhād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.(?)To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization.

 

So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them!

 

 These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? The ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.

 

Yesterday you mentioned to the secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaiṣṇavas. They should all be brahminically qual...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa-vaiṣṇava.

 

That can be possible if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaiṣṇava."

 

…You get sufficient sunlight, and in sunlight you keep very healthy and happy. That facility is here.

 

The bull is giving you grains by working in the field, and the mother is giving you milk, and you are killing them." This was His first question. So this is a civilization of killing father and mother. All over the world they are killing bulls and cows.

 

…But here in India they know how to utilize bulls--for transportation, for plowing and so many other things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a shortage of fuel, but there is no shortage of fuel with a bull.

Prabhupāda: No, rather, it will supply you gobar, fuel. Whatever he will eat, he will give you fuel.

 

There was some accident, and he was taken to hospital. So he was advised, "Because you do not kill the bulls, therefore this is the accident." As if without killing..., by killing the bulls there is no accident. And they do not cite the accident by motorcar, greater bulls. Accident will be there.

 

The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles. As soon as you become a rascal--"Now I have become advanced. I don't require to chant sixteen rounds. I can do whatever I like"--then he has gone to hell. Upstart, immediately he becomes paramahaṁsa. He's a rascal…

 

So if the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī thinks that "I have become uttama-adhikārī," then he's a rascal. He's a rascal. If he wants to imitate the uttama-adhikārī, then he's a rascal.

                      So you are all soldiers. Even if you lay down your life by fighting, you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have to prove them fools by practical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME EIGHTEEN

Morning Walk                                             December 18, 1975, Bombay                                                      417915

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhāgavatam. Vidvāṁś cakre satvata. Vidvāṁ means Vyāsadeva. He compiled Bhāgavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād... These unnecessary engagements cannot be given up, anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyājānato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajānata. Ajānato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidyā... Vyāsadeva is vidvān, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajanataḥ. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, Hm? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru." Yes. So many gurus required. Āmāra ajïāya guru haya tāra ei deśa, wherever you are living, you just try to deliver your family, your neighborhood, your friends. Deliver, tāra. Tāra means deliver. "How can I do it? I am not a guru; I am a common..." "No. You have to become a guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa': simply repeat the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa. Then you will become guru.

Dr. Patel: But for the saṁsārīs, sir...

Prabhupāda: Saṁsārīs, (indistinct) for the saṁsārīs. When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni, this is for saṁsārīs. Saintly person doesn't require anna. It is meant for the saṁsārī. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Catur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: This division of society is meant for the saṁsārī, to control division of labor. Everything is for the saṁsārī. It is not meant for the paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā is Bhāgavata. This is ABC. These people, they do not understand even the ABC. This is the difficulty. They cannot learn even the ABCD of spiritual knowledge.

Dr. Patel:

śreyo hi jïānam abhyāsāj

jïānād dhyānam viśiṣyate

dhyānāt karma-phala-tyagās

tyāgāc chāntir anantaram

Whether tyāga is meant for the saṁsārīs?

Prabhupāda: Tyāgāt means one must be disgusted with this material way of life. This is tyāga. But they are being educated to be more attached to this material world.

Dr. Patel: This modern education.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: How to make a successful life. Like...

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam. That is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga also, vidyā. Vyāsadeva also says, anārthopasanaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. To get rid of this entanglement, unnecessary things, the only means is bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Modern advancement of science is actually here, entangle the man in more and more bonds. But by raising, creating more bonds for comfort, comfortable life...

Prabhupāda: What comfort?

Dr. Patel: Comfortable life means...

Prabhupāda: That is another...

Dr.Patel: Comfortable life means comfort of the body.

Prabhupāda: To get a comfortable life, one has to work so hard: "Where is comfort?"

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes. That is his foolishness. In Europe they actually run in the morning to go to their work. They run like mad dogs.

Prabhupāda: But we are also...

Dr. Patel: They may start running now. They are following them.

Prabhupāda: No...

Dr. Patel: And I remember that I used to laugh, the way they were running in the work, sir.

Prabhupāda: That is here also. Everywhere. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "No, no, no. This is not life." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān. So much labor for getting your bread. That is immediately stopped.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is the misfortune. And how it started, this ball? Who made the ball rolling? He, he makes the ball. This is modern education.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is the architect of his own fortune.

 

Morning Walk                                                 Nellore, January 6, 1976                                                         419648

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad-bhakteṣv abhidāsyati

na ca tasmān manusyeṣu

kaścid me priya-kṛttamaḥ

"Anyone who speaks about this Bhagavad-gītā, he is My dearmost friend," He said. So why one should be silent? Our ultimate aim is how to become dearmost to Kṛṣṇa. And He never says that "You become silent." Why shall I become silent? Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Rather, He recommends that "You always be engaged in glorifying Me." Where is the "silent"? These are all manufactured by these rascals. So many, meditation, silence--these are not recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                        January 7, 1976, Nellore                                                          419650

Prabhupāda: ...no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned...

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together.

Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking?

Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right.

Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat?

Yaśodā-nandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice.

Hariśauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table.

Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better thing.... So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā. Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā. Why Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto? Mām eva ye prapadyante. This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī, then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one amroot(?). Cut into pieces and get...

 

Morning Walk                                               January 18, 1976, Māyāpur                                                       421150

Prabhupāda: Cloth you are not going to sell. Cloth are you going to sell?

Jayapatāka: We can take donations for cloth. We won't sell. We'll take donations for cloth.

Prabhupāda: That, for that purpose...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the harm of selling cloth, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, then you will require extra energy.

Jayapatāka: No, I mean our own production, not outside.

Prabhupāda: No, no, your production.... You should make production for your necessity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The American devotees, when they come, they want to purchase the cloth.

Prabhupāda: That is amongst ourself, not public.

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                        421189

Jayapatāka: This is our land here.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Jayapatāka: This, with the wheat. We have a tube well there. We irrigate these lands. There are six and sixty, twelve bigas... (break) ...last year's harvest. We haven't had to purchase any wheat this year.

Prabhupāda: The chapati we eat, that is our wheat?

Jayapatāka: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Very good, yes.

Jayapatāka: (break) ...bīghā is also ours.

Prabhupāda: This one?

Jayapatāka: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What you have grown there?

Jayapatāka: Chick peas.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Chick pea, chapati, gur--first class. (laughter) And milk.

 

Morning Walk                                              January 19, 1976, Māyāpur                                                        421345

Prabhupāda: So without government award it will be risky. They can take away.

Indian man: Ten bīghās she extracts.

Prabhupāda: But who is working as farmer? Who is working as farmer? The government is eager to give them land, but who is working? Nobody is working. They are going to the factory. Even whatever land is still available, they are not being worked out.

Indian man: Well, in the villages there are many poor peoples who are landless, so they are cultivating the land.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some of them are cultivating. Others are going to the city to be...

Indian man: So now everybody will go. When the rich people will take their land they have to go. They will say, "How we can live with the small land," so they will move.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why they should not try to be rich? If the rich man exploits them, that "You work in our land and take some salary," why they will work for that? They will go to the factory, will get more salary. This way Indira Gandhi cannot solve the poverty problem. They must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like these soldiers, they for twenty years, simply eating and sleeping, and they are not engaged in cultivating--useless waste of time--and government has to maintain in big cantonment, big, big house, big, nice food, nice.... This is going on. Why the soldiers are maintained? It is waste of energy. They should have been engaged in tilling. Formerly the kings would give them free land. "You make your fortune--but on condition: when there is fight, you have to join." That was very easy. He possessed so much land, and he worked hard, and he got riches. Unless.... "Proprietorship turns sand into gold." Unless there is proprietorship, it cannot be. So therefore kṣatriyas, they were given land: "You take land as much as you like and produce but on condition that when there is war you have to join."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Europe that was the system also.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere that was the system. That is called.... What is called?

Harikesa: Feudalism?

Prabhupāda: Feudalism, yes. What is this nonsense, maintaining so many idle men without any profit? Very, very bad system. And nowadays especially, when there is atomic energy, what is the value of the soldiers?

Harikesa: We need the soldiers to start.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikesa: The soldiers, they start the war. One stands on one side, the other stands on the other side, and there's one shot, one shot, ten shots, ten shots, then mortars, then tanks, then atom bombs.

Prabhupāda: No, why this is? If you have improved scientifically, let two, three scientists keep flying and the handy atom bomb. As soon as war starts, "plum," finished.

Harikesa: They have that also.

Prabhupāda: Then.... Why also? That should be the only. It is waste of time. What kind of scientists they are? If you have actually improved in science for killing others by atom bomb, so keep one atom bomb very carefully. Fly in the sky. And as soon as the war--world, "plum." Finished.

Harikesa: Well, then the other will just send some boats over, and all the men will get out while they're flying in the sky, and they'll just take over the country by manual soldiers.

Prabhupāda: No. As soon as atom bomb is..., everything is finished. There will be no opportunity. That is their thinking, "Who will drop the atom bomb first, he will be winner." That's all. In Russia they are adopting this means. They are releasing all the soldiers for other work. What is the use of keeping so many men idle without any work and maintain them, high salary, occupy big, big cantonment camps?

Harikesa: In America the army builds roads and bridges and things.

Prabhupāda: That's utilization. Why they should be paid for nothing?

 

Morning Walk                                              January 20, 1976, Māyāpura                                                      421745

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them see practically. We are not busy how to go to the office, how to the business place. We are not interested. We are simply interested for maìgala ārati, for class, for chanting, dancing. That's all. Practically see. We are not going to any office or any business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yet we're still living in a palace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them see it. We are living in such a palace that everyone is envious. They ask in America that "You people, you do not do anything. How do you live so, like this?" Do they not?

Sudāmā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The storekeeper says. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And when we tell them, "We will also teach you how to do nothing also and live in a palace," they say, "Oh, no, thank you. That I do not want. I want to work hard."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called worms of the stool. You see? If you take this worm from the stool, "Why you are living in stool? Come here," "No, no. I go back there." You'll see. The pig eating stool, ask him, "Take halavā. Why you are eating?" "No, no. I like it very much." This is māyā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sometimes when a devotee goes, joins Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then leaves again and goes back to the material world, its just like a pig going back to the stool.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The materialism and spiritualism is explained by Rūpa Gosvāmī. There is bird, cātaka. So they drink water when the rain falls, and otherwise they will starve. They will never accept any water from this earth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is actually such a bird.

Prabhupāda: A devotee will never accept materialism, even if he dies of starvation. You'll see so many still. They are sticking to this principle. There are still many saintly persons in India. They do that. They don't care for any bodily care. "Some food comes; I shall eat. Never mind." Still you'll find. They are sitting in their place and chanting or meditating without any concern for bodily necessities.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We see, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you also have no such concern, but just to deliver the whole world you are taking on this concern.

Prabhupāda: This is for Kṛṣṇa. We are constructing the buildings and begging money or..., and..., only for this purpose: people may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that bhajanānandī and goṣṭhyānandī?

Prabhupāda: Bhajanānandī is not so important than goṣṭhyānandī. Bhajanānandī is doing for himself, and goṣṭhyānandī is doing for all living being. If you prepare some rasagullā for you, and if you prepare rasagullā for mass of people, then who is better? Rasagullā is good, but if you prepare for yourself only, then that is also good. But one who is preparing for so many hundreds and thousands is better.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was just reading a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā this morning. There's a... I don't know the Sanskrit, but the English is, "He who works for the welfare of others." Part of the verse mentions like that. "A liberated soul works for the welfare of others."

Bhavānanda: But some people, especially here, they can understand you prepare rasagullās for the mass of people, but they don't like that you prepare rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhavānanda: They want that you should prepare rasagullā for the mass of people but they don't like it if you're preparing rasagullā to give to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The answer is that if you do not prepare rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa, then there will be no supply of rasagullā. So everything will be finished. Because bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Anyone who is preparing rasagullā for himself or expanded himself, so they simply become implicated with sinful activities. So if you are... Suppose if you prepare rasagullā, stealing from the shopkeeper sugar and..., then how long you will go on? One day you'll be captured. Stena eva sa ucyate. What is that verse? Stena eva sa ucyate. (Bengali) Yajïa-puruṣa. Real point is to satisfy. You cannot supply rasagullā, but if you supply rasagullā as prasādam, then the rasagullā-eater is benefited, you are benefited, and Kṛṣṇa is pleased.

Jayapatākā: But some devotees say that "In cooking rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa and the masses, I got my hand burnt. So now I want to practice on my own how to make rasagullā. When I become expert, then again I'll make for the masses."

Prabhupāda: You can prepare for Kṛṣṇa so that your hands will be saved. Because you are thinking in that way, that "Let me prepare for myself," therefore your hands is burned. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's seven o'clock now, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So we have to go down?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not have to. Whatever you like.

Prabhupāda: As you like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We like what you like.

Prabhupāda: So there will be rain. And if there is rain now, it is good. For these food grains. It is very good.

Jayapatākā: Good for everything but the masuri.

Prabhupāda: Well, masuri is not very important.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is masuri?

Jayapatākā: Lentils.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it's not good for construction.

Jayapatākā: No, no, it won't be...

Prabhupāda: No, it will not continue. A few hours in a day, stop. Yadi varṣe māghera śeṣa, daṇòa-rājā puṇya-deśa. This is the month of Māgha. So at the end of Māgha, if there is little rain, then it is to be understood that the king of that country is very pious and blessed. This time a little rain is required. Yadi varṣe māghera śeṣa, daṇòa-rājā puṇya-deśa. There is a book, Khanāra Vacana, astronomical prediction in this small verses.

Jayapatākā: Pradyumna Prabhu had a copy of that book.

Prabhupāda: Khanāra Vacana?

Jayapatākā: I was looking at it. It was very practical. Even how to... How many feet you should plant the different trees, banana and others.

Prabhupāda: Khanā was a woman, very intelligent. Wife... I think she was wife of Varāha Mihira. He was very great astrologer, and she learned from her husband, and then she explained in common language. That is Khanāra Vacana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: This Khanāra Vacana. She was... I think so... I don't know whether... She was the wife of a great, a very big astrologer.

Jayapatākā: There was nine ṛṣis of one rājā, and then she was the daughter of one of those ṛṣis.

Prabhupāda: Oh, maybe, daughter or wife.

Jayapatākā: Wife of a..., also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everything is so scientifically analyzed in the Vedas. The Westerners...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say "perfect." Śruti-pramāṇam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even to the point of knowing about a certain amount of rain coming at the end of a particular season and how that indicates about the administration.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything. Daṇòa-rājā puṇya-deśa.

Jayapatākā: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (break) "...whether you have got such buildings, whether you have got such books, whether you have got such disciples, whether you have traveled so..."? Then what they will, will be reply? Hm?

Jayapatākā: But they've got the āśīrbād.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh. They say that due to their āśīrbād?

Jayapatākā: No, he is saying that he is the counterpart, that he's got the āśīrbād.

Prabhupāda: No, āśīrbād, but what you have done for the āśīrbād. You are licking up the āśīrbād.

Child: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Jaya. He is also. (break) Vedic conception is that the birds and beasts, they should not be driven away. Let them eat as much as it like. They must eat also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we shouldn't do that in our field?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic.

Jayapatākā: Then we won't have anything to eat.

Prabhupāda: No, you produce more.

Jayapatākā: What ha... In the... Because now this field is the only field that is ripening, so that if he doesn't scare the bird away, all the bird will come and eat his field. When all the wheat is ripening at the same time, then nobody cares. They let the birds eat. But if one man only is growing one crop at one time, then all the birds come. They will clean out and they all get...

Prabhupāda: No, therefore everyone should grow seasonal grains. Everyone should take wheat.

 

Morning Walk                                             January 21, 1976, Māyāpura                                                       421817

Prabhupāda: Still, if you say, "You are mūòha," they become angry. Such mūòhas, rascals, they are in the government service. And if you say that "You are mūòhas," he becomes angry. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye: "If a mūòha is advised nice instruction, he becomes angry." He does not take it. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaìgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam: "If you give milk and banana to a snake, you simply increase his poison." One day he will come--(growls). You see? "I have given you milk and you..." "Yes, that is my nature. Yes. You give me milk, and I am prepared to kill you." This is mūòha. We have to kill this civilization of mūòhas. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are actually human being, you have to give them Kṛṣṇa. And those who are mūòhas, we have to kill them. This is our business. Kill all the mūòhas and give Kṛṣṇa to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Kṛṣṇa's. We are not nonviolent. We are violent to the mūòhas. (break) ...wal, did you come here before?

Indian man (1): No, sir.

Prabhupāda: Do you like this place?

Indian man (1): It's very nice.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...here for some time. You'll like it very much. (break) ...you all that in this center very nice foodstuff is supplied, and nobody becomes sick. Everyone complain, "I am sick because I am eating too much," or "no eating." Why? No eating or eating too much should be avoided. Simply you eat what will keep your health nice. That is eating. No eating is also not advised, and overeating is also not. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. Yuktāhāra, not atyāhāra. Yukta. Where is this Śāstrī? He's sleeping?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Sick?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in the class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he doesn't sleep at this...

Prabhupāda: (break) ...possible for us to challenge the whole world that "You are all fools." Huh? Is it possible?

Harikeśa: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Based on the scripture. You can show Vedic...

Prabhupāda: No, no, they don't care for Vedic. That is another foolishness. You have to present. You have to prove them fools by practical. And otherwise, "Who cares for your Vedic instruction?" they will say. Why they should... "We have got our own instruction." That is preaching. If you quote simply Vedic literature, they will think, "We can quote many others."

Bhavānanda: But they are filled with anxiety and we are not.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhavānanda: They are filled with anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of presentation. You have to present in such a way that he will accept that "What you are saying, you are right." That is preaching. (break) ...cepting our books because they are seeing, "Yes, here is practical explanation," not that because it is Bhāgavata. What do they care for Bhāgavata?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They never heard of Bhāgavata.

Prabhupāda: No. And why they should accept Bhāgavata? We are not accepting Bible, so why they should accept Bhāgavata? That is no argument. You must present the Vedic knowledge in such a way that they will be obliged to accept: "Yes, it is right." (break) ...something, Mr. Agarwal, that "Nobody complains about eating,"

you will do a great service, I tell you. Everyone will come and say, "Oh, such a nice food." They will come here for eating, if not for anything. (break) You were proposing about our Vṛndāvana. So if this thing is done, that the eatables are very nice, then visitors will come. Otherwise this manager, that manager, this manager will not help you. Phalena paricīyate. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayapatākā: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Harikeśa: There are a lot of restaurants in America which are very far away from the general mass of people, and because they have very high reputations, people come from miles around there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This tongue is very, what is called? Susceptible? No?

Harikeśa: Voracious.

Prabhupāda: Not voracious. They want very palatable things, the tongue. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, very greedy. So if you supply them kṛṣṇa-prasādam at the same time to satisfy their greediness, then you conquer. This is the secret.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You conquered a lot of devotees by prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Automatically he becomes devotee: "No, we shall become, remain here." This is the secret. Why the woman is liked? Because the woman, if she is trained up to give satisfaction to the tongue, to the belly and the sex, straight line, she becomes favorite immediately. This is woman's business. And people are hankering. The karmīs especially, they are hankering after these three things: palatable dishes, fill up belly, and sex. That's all. If the woman can do it, she conquers over the husband immediately because these three things they want. Take things very practically. Hm? Am I wrong or right?

 

dhyāyato viṣayān puṁsaḥ

saìgas teṣūpajāyate

saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ

kāmāt krodho 'bhijāyate

krodhād bhavati sammohaḥ

sammohāt smṛti-vibhramaḥ

smṛti-bhraṁśād buddhi-nāśo

buddhi-nāśāt praṇaśyati

Prabhupāda: So this is the material side. Similarly, spiritual side also, the same. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. If the sādhu-saìga is there, then gradually he becomes a devotee.

Jayapatākā: (break) ...looking for a job. He worked for two months and then became devotee. He never took even salary.

Prabhupāda: Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. This is the process. If one comes in contact with devotee or God, then he is simply satisfied by the service. No return. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. (break) ...guru?

Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these workers are coming.

Prabhupāda: Ghosh wanted to give us land that side for making a path to the Ganges.

Jayapatākā: Sell us.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So we have got a plan beginning from this gate up to the Ganges. If we get land we can do that. (break) Foundation stone in Nellore can be transferred to Madras?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm going to do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Madras is far better place than Nellore. (break) ...if we take charity from such fallen woman, then we have to share his sinful activity. Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should be careful from whom we accept charity?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But our Kṛṣṇa can eat even fire. If there is forest fire, Kṛṣṇa can eat. Unless He is able to eat others' sinful reaction, how He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi? He is capable; otherwise how He can say like that?

Morning Walks                            January 22, 1976 (and January 23, 1976), Māyāpura                                 421950

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) How they are bringing ruination. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. The blind men led by another blind man. It is not new. In the Bhāgavata therefore it is warned that "Don't follow hog philosophy." Viò-bhujāṁ ye. This kind of philosophy, that for sense gratification, laboring whole day and night, writing books, philosophizing and all these things, it is meant for the hogs, not for human being. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. This kind of civilization is meant for the hogs. So they are exhibiting that they are no better than hog.

Śāstrījī: Śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Brahma-saukhya, ananta-brahma-saukhya. (break) (sings Bengali verses)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Don't manufacture knowledge. Take knowledge from Bhagavān. And that is our business. (Bengali) Don't order Bhagavān. Just follow Bhagavān. That is wanted. (Bengali) Don't write concocted poetries. That is not beneficial. Simply follow. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. That is your business, not to give upadeśa to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, do this." Nāciye nāciye āile gopāla: "My dear Gopāla, please come to me, nāciye, dancing." And the Gopāla is father's servant. Ordering, "Gopāla, come," nāciye nāciye, "my sense gratification." It is all nonsense. Why should you ask Gopāla to come to you? (Bengali) You cannot order. You must follow. (Bengali) ...to carry out the order of God, not to order God to carry out my order. That is mistake.

                                                                                                                                                                        422027

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Why they look inquisitive? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Cent percent cheater beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes... Even we have seen it in childhood. "Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the need of a son.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father dies insolvent, debtor; he is enemy because the son has to pay according to Manu-saṁhitā law. Because he inherits father's money, why he shall not pay if the father is debtor?

Jayapatākā: He also inherits the debt.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is India's law. You cannot simply inherit father's property and no debt. You inherit father's debt also. So a father dies debted, indebtor--he is supposed to be enemy because the son has to pay. Åṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi.(?)And mother, if she marries for the second time in spite of presence of children, she is enemy. And in Western countries it is very common affair.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Divorce and remarry.

Prabhupāda: All enemies. Mother enemy, father enemy. And then? Åṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And if the wife is very beautiful, she is also enemy. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇòitaḥ. And the son, if he's a rascal, he is enemy. That's all. This is family enemies. In the family nobody expects enemy, but Cāṇakya Paṇòita says that these are enemies in the family. Åṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Now everyone is hankering after very beautiful wife, and Cāṇakya Paṇòita said, "Then you are bringing one enemy." Just see what is the type of civilization. Because if you become too much attached to wife, then you'll never be able to go out of home and take sannyāsa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Andha-kūpam.

Prabhupāda: Andha-kūpam. You shall have to die. Gṛham andha-kūpam. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato... You'll never be able to leave the home if wife is very attractive. Of course, everyone's wife is very attractive. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if ugly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... One, our Sanskrit professor used to... "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the negroes." He used to say. And it is my... It is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yar saìge ye morje man kibari ki vardana(?). It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇòita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes.

Harikeśa: What was that?

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." (laughs) Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, Prabhupāda, you said that your school work was a little impeded...

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl... That is also said, yauvane kukkarī sundarī. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. (laughs) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who said that? Whose statement was that?

Prabhupāda: No, that was also... I do not know, but this is going on. (laughter) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī. It is by nature's arrangement the woman is given one chance at the time of youthfulness. Otherwise how she will be given protection by a man? They require protection. If somebody is not attracted, then how she gets protection? This is natural.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays, though, even if she is attractive, the men simply take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: And they call this liberation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the women want it.

Prabhupāda: Want means as the social practice is there, everyone becomes victimized.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not their fault.

Prabhupāda: The social system in India, that a boy, say, twenty, twenty-five years, and a girl, twelve to sixteen years, must be married. Must be married. And before marriage the girl should not see any boy, and the boy should not see any woman. Then the life is all right. Even in U.P. still, the system is that before marriage the boy should not see. The marriage takes place. Nowadays it has been practiced that boy goes to see the girl, but formerly it was not. She (he) should not see. She (he) should see the girl when the marriage actually takes place, not before that. The psychology is that when they require a man or a girl, so whatever she is or he is, they accept and they remain chaste, so there is no separation. This is the psychology. Whenever you are hungry, whatever nonsense foodstuff is offered to you, it is palatable. Is it not? Because, after all, it is the appetite which eats, not the foodstuff. Foodstuff may be very, very nicely prepared, but if you have no appetite, it is finished. You know the history of Ramakrishna? Did I say? Yes. So he had no appetite, and he very tactfully said, "Oh, you are not my wife. You are my mother." And he became Bhagavān.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if he had no appetite it means he was transcendentally situated?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not transcendentally. In his young time he used so many women that after marriage he was impotent. So he could not use, and he made a tact that "I see all women as my mother, even my wife." And that made him famous, this jugglery. Phuraphai(?) govindāya namaḥ. Flying, what is called? Puffed rice flying, "All right, govindāya namaḥ. I offer to Govinda." Phuraphai govindāya. Where is in the history that a saintly person has called his wife "mother"? The saintly person give some home, that's all. And where is the, such instance--a saintly man calls his wife as "mother"? He is the only man. "Mā."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's another thing I noticed, that in the pictures very often of Ramakrishna and his mother, his wife, whichever one she is, they show...

Prabhupāda: No, they show that "This is husband and wife. Ramakrishna was so advanced that even his wife, he left her, considering, 'She is my mother.' By worshiping mother Kālī he has become so perfect that sees all women as mother." He does not require to become Bhagavān. Cāṇakya Paṇòita says, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Para-dāreṣu, not your own wife. Huh? Others' wife should be treated as mother. That is our Indian system. But he wanted to overcome that, that "I call even my wife mother."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That "I am better than..."

Prabhupāda: Ah, better than all others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I've had is that in the pictures they always show her head. She is bareheaded. She doesn't cover her head. And I noticed the thing that when we're sometimes passing in a car in Bengal I notice that the women, very often, they don't... It's more in this state than anywhere else, they don't cover their head. Is that due to her influence?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The system is when the woman is at the care of father she does not cover. But when she is under the care of husband she must cover. By dress you can understand what she is, whether she is widow, whether she has got husband, whether she is prostitute. Everything by dress you'll understand. Nowadays the fashion is the woman has the bakan(?) sīmanta here, not here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prostitute.

Prabhupāda: But that was meant for prostitute. If the woman has sīmanta here, then you should understand. Then you can freely talk with. She is advertising, "Yes, I am prostitute. You can talk with me." Without that signboard no man is gentleman if he wants to talk with another woman. He can talk only with that woman. Neither you can talk with widow. That girl, our Śivaśakti's mother? She is dressing herself as widow. That is very nice. Very nice. That simple dress will not attract men.

Bhavānanda: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes when I preached in the schools I used that example, that how by looking at a woman's part of her hair you can tell what she is. And so many of the girls in the class, they had their hair parted on the side. So I said a woman who has her hair parted on the side is a prostitute. They all laughed.

Prabhupāda: "And what is the wrong to become prostitute?" They accept it, "All right, we are prostitute."

Bhavānanda: Right. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Now there is no distinction between prostitute and chaste.

Jayapatākā: That was published in the Bombay Illustrated Weekly, that the prostitutes are having difficulty because women are so freely available that no one is coming to pay for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unemployment.

Prabhupāda: Because everyone is prostitute. Vartula pravaha.(?) You know vartula pravaha? This nyāya, logic? Vartula pravaha. One brāhmaṇa was taking bath daily in the Ganges. So as a brāhmaṇa's regulative principle, they take kośa-kuśī to offer oblation to the forefathers, śraddhā. So one day he found there are so many kośa-kuśīs, so he could not understand which is his own. So next day, just to find out his own, he put one earth ball in his own kośa. Kośa you understand?

Jayapatākā: Some plate.

Prabhupāda: One plate, yes. It is placed like this. So when he came from, after bathing, he saw that so many kośas are, everything is containing that ball, vartula. Then again he was puzzled that he put a ball in his own kośa so that he can find out, but when he came back from bathing he saw that all the kośas... Then he asked all other brāhmaṇas, "How is that, that there are so many balls in everyone's kośa? I put it to recognize my own." So they said, "I thought that it is a fashion now. It is an occasion to put a ball in..." Vartula pravaha. The same difficulty. At Bombay there was some news like this, that prostitutes are not doing well in their profession? Who told me that?

Harikeśa: He said it was in the Illustrated Weekly.

Prabhupāda: Oh. When it was?

Jayapatākā: About one year ago. There was a big article on prostitution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we understand that in the Satya-yuga one hundred percent of the population was God conscious. But then again, we see many times it is stated that, for example, there were always prostitutes or there was always this or...

Prabhupāda: there were no prostitute in Satya-yuga.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No meat-eaters.

Prabhupāda: No meat-eaters.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: None whatsoever.

Prabhupāda: All paramahaṁsas. In the Satya-yuga they are all paramahaṁsa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every single person.

Prabhupāda: Every person was perfectly, spiritually...

Harikeśa: On the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then in Tretā-yuga one-fourth diminished. And then Dvāpara-yuga, half diminished. And in Kali-yuga, three-fourth diminished. Seventy-five per cent are all rogues, and twenty-five per cent... That is expected, but that is now diminishing. They are all rogues with the advancement of Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ. Therefore there is no other method to save them. Harer nāmaiva kevalam. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Incorrigible. Everyone will be incorrigible. Only hope is Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole Vedic system is to make human being correct. Being incorrect, they are suffering in this material world repetition of birth, death. Sometimes man, sometimes dog. So to correct him so that he comes to his original position, Kṛṣṇa conscious, and go back to home. This is the whole Vedic civilization, to correct him. Therefore it is called saṁskāra. Saṁskāra means correction. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda- pāṭhād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.(?)To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone is like pig in this material world. Therefore Åṣabhadeva says, "Now don't live like pig." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye: "Now, you, My children... " He was advising, instructing His son that "Now this life is not to live like pig." This is the first instruction, because everyone is more or less pig, living like pig. Pig means he has no discrimination of eating and he has no discrimination of sex. That is pig. And everyone is like that. No discrimination of eating, especially in the Western. And no discrimination of sex. Pigs. Big pig or small pig, that's all. So Åṣabhadeva says, "Now My dear sons, don't spoil your life living like pigs." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means "In the human society you should not live like pig and very hard labor." So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them!

Harikeśa: They will get very angry.

Prabhupāda: Angry... With shoes. We beat them with shoes that "You have created a civilization to work like ass, and ideal is to become a pig. What is this civilization? Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puru... And for their votes you become a president. What you are better than a pig? A pig votes for another pig, big pig. That's all. How people will be happy?"

Harikeśa: You told them that in South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Did I say?

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But they clapped.

Harikeśa: Yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They appreciated. Although they do not take Indians very seriously...

Harikeśa: "Third-class citizens."

Prabhupāda: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books and they clapped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. South Africa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them?

Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I thought only Indians attended.

Harikeśa: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? The ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we speak like that in the classrooms, whew!

Bhavānanda: They like it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very strong.

Prabhupāda: This is the fact. Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine percent votes and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there... Are... Their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and... śva-viò-varāha. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can they vote for human beings?

Prabhupāda: There is no human being. A big... I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are..." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or, and the Hitler and... What is the value? He's a big animal, that's all.

Harikeśa: You were saying in Vṛndāvana they tweak each other's ear.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Churchill was tweaking the ear of Hitler, and Hitler was tweaking... Like in school the two children?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Jayapatākā: Yesterday you mentioned to the secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaiṣṇavas. They should all be brahminically qual...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa-vaiṣṇava.

Jayapatākā: Brāhmaṇa-vaiṣṇava. Then they could give true advice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this nonsense asses and pigs and dogs and cats? What they will do?

Jayapatākā: One goal we could have is that they would pass a law that no one could be a member of a legislature who didn't follow the four regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Who will do that? That can be possible if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaiṣṇava." Then everything will be changed. That is the only opportunity, that if people become Vaiṣṇava and they decide that "We are not going to vote anyone who is not a Vaiṣṇava," then everything will be all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the devotees question that the Kali-yuga is advancing, and in that sense the standards are deteriorating. Yet you are preaching that "Get everyone to the position where everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious." How in the Kali-yuga advancing can everyone become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: They do not understand. If I say, "The epidemic is increasing. You take this injection, then you can be saved. If you don't take vaccination, then you'll suffer." This is our propaganda. "You take this vaccination; you'll be saved. The epidemic is very strong." But if you think, "Now, because there is epidemic there is no other way. What is the use of taking vaccination?" This is no argument. The epidemic is there; the vaccination is there. (aside:) This is tulasī? Tell them. The disease is there; the medicine is there. So intelligent man should take the medicine, precaution, and then he'll be saved. Two things are there. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. In Kali-yuga, if you don't take this, then there is no means of your save, safety. The two things are there. Why you are taking one thing? You take this thing or... (break) Everywhere two things are there: do's and don't's. So in order to make the process of do's you have to accept the process of don't's. That Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvāmī? He's instructing both the do's and the don't's. Huh? You have read it?

Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That is don't's.

Harikeśa: Utsāhān niścayāt...

Prabhupāda: This is do's. That is instruction. Why should you take one side? Take both sides.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in those two verses, one is don't and one is do, but the...

Prabhupāda: You have to take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is still a statement in the do's which is a don't, where it says, "Don't associate with nondevotees." Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt...

Prabhupāda: Sato vṛtteḥ saìga-tyāgāt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Saìga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ. So that's a don't.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is don't's and do's also. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is do's. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it's translated as "Don't associate with the nondevotees."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. All the ślokas, they are... In some śloka the do's are prominent, some ślokas don't's prominent, but in every śloka there is do's and don't's. Everywhere there is. In the Bible also: "Thou shall not do. Thou shall not kill." The don't's. (break) You are learning śabda-rūpa, dhātu-rūpa.

Hiraṇyagarbha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Every śloka there is śabda, dhātu, everything. Nominative, objective. (break) ...some you are going to say, just study yourself, whether it is not the civilization of asses and pigs. You have to understand first of all. Is it not? They are working hard like an ass just to become an ideal pig. Is it not this civilization?

Harikeśa: Having sex with mother, daughter, sister...

Prabhupāda: Yes. How śāstra has picked up the example, just see. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate... What is that?

Harikeśa: Viò-bhujāṁ ye.

Prabhupāda: Viò-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jïāna vijïāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijïāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūòhāni māyayā

Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs."

Harikeśa: Pigs don't like to live in a clean house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a story in Bhāgavata that Indra was cursed to become a pig. So after some time there was mismanagement in the heavenly kingdom. Brahmā personally came, "Indra, anyway, you became pig. Now you come with me." "Huh? How can I go? I have got so much responsibility." Then he was killed and took to heaven. So any life, any abominable condition, everyone is thinking, "I am perfect." This is called māyā. Any abominable condition, he is thinking, everyone is thinking, that "I am perfect. I have nothing to advance." This is called māyā. They do not know what is perfection. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. The ideal perfection they do not know. They are trying that "We shall make this pig life adjusted to civilized life." Is it possible? Pig life and adjusting to civilized life? Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall get down? (break) Nobody will accept. But if you explain that "You are no better than pigs and hogs and asses," then they will accept. So we have to take the idea from Bhāgavata and explain it for their understanding. That is wanted. (break) People are working so hard. Is it pleasure? But why they are working? They are working with the only hope that "Night, I shall go home, eat nicely and have sex with my wife." That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Otherwise why they will work so hard? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...Los Angeles we have got a plant like this next to my window. That land for others, but it comes to my window. What is this?

Bhavānanda: Bougainvillea.

Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about the point, in certain places in Bhāgavatam it distinctly says that the human being's food is creatures of four legs with cloven hoof?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: It distinctly says in some places in Bhāgavatam that the human being's food is four-legged animals with a cloven hoof.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you remain animal. But that is not the ideal, that you remain animal. That is culture. If you want to remain animal, then it is all right. If you want to remain pig, you eat whatever you like. But if you don't want to remain a pig, then you have got to make discrimination. You have to take kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Because it is Bhāgavatam, it is written that one animal is food for another animal. That is for the animal. And I have already said that this Vedic civilization is meant for making the animal a perfect person.

Harikeśa: In the Manu-saṁhitā also there is many, many rules about what kind of meat to eat.

Prabhupāda: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. And that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kālī under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man--"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat? Why śāstra should... The real way, nivṛtteḥ... Pravṛttir eṣāṁ bhūtānāṁ nivṛttes tu mahā-phalam. The pravṛtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Åṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam, that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya--athāto brahma-jijïāsā--only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brāhmaṇas, high literature, everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One time you were explaining that Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with the Kazi, He convinced him about that the Koran does not actually advocate meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Because the Muslims, they also cannot eat meat unless it is sacrificed in the mosque. There is no recommendation that you purchase from the market and the animal be slaughtered in the slaughterhouse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some mention not to eat many animals but eat one...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what I... I couldn't remember.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Arabia they were to meat animal but to save him from so many dangerous and sinful life--he has to kill so many goats--better kill one life, a camel or a cow. Camel is big animal. So if you kill one animal, camel, it is equal to fifty goats.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about a cow?

Prabhupāda: A cow is also big animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they say like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes... They don't say cow. They say better kill one big animal. "So instead of becoming sinful for killing so many animals, you better kill..." And that is also sacrificed in the mosque, and that is called koravāni. Restriction is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's no... The karma for killing many goats is more severe than killing one cow.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You become responsible for each and every animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Irrespective of what kind of animal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you can serve the purpose by killing one animal, why should you take the risk of killing many animals?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if that one animal is a cow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal is animal. And we say protect cow from economic point of view, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. Without saving cows you cannot get good food, not from the animal point of view. You require milk and milk preparation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the cow dies anyway.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow is going to die naturally, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, if you want flesh, take that dead body and eat.

Tamāl Krsna: Why don't they see this, that just by killing a cow you don't get more cows. They're going to die anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is going to die, but they are so voracious, they do not wait up to the death, and they have theorized that "Dead animal is dangerous to health. Now kill while it is in life."

Harikeśa: Yes, they think like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but... They have got so many nonsense philosophy. But if that philosophy is supported, when you kill the animal, he becomes dead. (laughter)

Sudāmā: Yes, they call it "fresh meat."

Prabhupāda: Just see. "Fresh dead." Just see. The rascals are so fools that unless you make him dead, you cannot eat. So why do you theorize that a dead animal is not good?

Harikeśa: Well, 'cause he had to die from some cause, and that cause is...

Prabhupāda: Cause, all right. It is also cause. You are killing, that's all.

Harikeśa: The knife is clean, whereas the germs are...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Formerly the Hindus, they used to purchase meat and cook it in Ganges water. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy.

Harikeśa: Purify it.

Prabhupāda: They thought, "Now it is..." And you will still find in Calcutta, "Hindu butcher." That Hindu butcher is pure. You have been in Calcutta? So they are going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Jews have that, "Kosher butcher."

Prabhupāda: "Mother's prasādam." The rascals say, "It is mother's prasādam."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Durgā, Kālī-prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Ramakrishna Mission, they take mother's prasādam. And they call...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you will also be mother's prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: Even they kill fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they will kill a cow who has some disease in liver, and then they will eat and they will all die...

Prabhupāda: Well, they manufacture so many ways. That does not mean we have to support it. We accept that these are animals, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? There's a... I was telling. We were talking this morning that in America they have a custom. The children, when they eat a dead, like a bird or something, a turkey. There is one part, I think it's the breastbone. So the children, after one of them finishes eating the breastbone, they both hold, each hold one end, and they break it, and whoever has the biggest part... Each one makes a wish. Whoever gets the biggest part, they think that their wish will be fulfilled. So this is a rākṣasa civilization. So I am only amazed how you were able to make such a big movement with so many, such rākṣasas as we are. That was what I was thinking, that we were the people who were doing that, and that you have delivered us.

Prabhupāda: And therefore people are surprised that "How this man is doing like this?" They are surprised. Everyone is surprised.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't imagine how fallen we were. I don't think they think it's really possible to reform so...

Prabhupāda: It is impossible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have done the impossible.

Sudāmā: Therefore they think that we are hypnotized.

Prabhupāda: Even Śrīdhara Mahārāja says that "This pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, we simply thought that it is an ideal, but you have practically done this." He admits that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember.

Dayānanda: In London you said that you were changing crows to swans.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dayānanda: It is impossible to change a crow to swan but you are changing crows to swans.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in reading the description of Jagāi and Mādhāi, they don't seem as bad as we were.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) We shall go this way? No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have time.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, jagāi mādhāi haite muïi se pāpiṣṭha: "I am lower than the Jagāi Mādhāi."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And to utter my name..." I think the next verse he says, "To utter my name will bring all..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya: "If one takes my name, then whatever little pious activities you have, it is spoiled." Purīṣera kīṭa haite muïi se laghiṣṭha, jagāi mādhāi haite muïi se pāpiṣṭha. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya. How humble he is.

Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra was also thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra, when he was refused interview by Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupada: Yes

Hari Sauri: He was thinking, "He saved Jagāi and Mādhāi, but I am so low that I am not able to see Him."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Jagāi-Mādhāi was delivered, but I am so lower that I have no chance of being delivered." Pratāparudra Mahārāja.

Harikeśa: It's inconceivable how he could think like that.

Prabhupāda: No, every Vaiṣṇava thinks like that. A Vaiṣṇava never thinks, "I have become perfect." Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, what to speak of others. (break) ...are carrying cement? Hm? (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              Mayapur, February 2, 1976                                                        422230

Prabhupāda: No. That is not... You are making better progress, Western countries. Kṛṣṇa is not limited anywhere. But in India they have got the facilities. But they are becoming rascals, so they are not taking the facility. The facility is there. That is everywhere, especially in India. You see everywhere, every day, the sunrise, so beautiful. In Western country, some places, sometimes. But here you'll find every day. That is the facility. This is Gāyatrī mantra. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi. This facility is in here. You get sufficient sunlight, and in sunlight you keep very healthy and happy. That facility is here.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        422326

Prabhupāda: I challenged him, "You are Buddhist." "Yes." "You are eating meat?" "Yes." "What is this?" (laughs) That was my first talking with him.

Sudāmā: They were wanting to talk business for a long time. You were simply preaching to them.

Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to the Kazi. His first question was that "What kind of religion you are following? You are killing your father and mother?" This was His beginning of the talk. "What kind of religion it is?" "How is that? I am killing my father, mother?" "Yes, cow is your mother and bull is your father. You are killing them. The bull is giving you grains by working in the field, and the mother is giving you milk, and you are killing them." This was his first question. So this is a civilization of killing father and mother. All over the world they are killing bulls and cows. In England there is law that you can maintain a cow but you cannot maintain a bull. It must be killed. Yes. When I was a guest in John Lennon's house the manager in charge, he was telling me. "You cannot keep bull. This is our law." I learned from him.

Hari-śauri: Only for breeding purposes. Only for breeding. All the rest are killed.

Prabhupāda: This is law in England? So you cannot keep even bull privately. Must be killed. This is the law.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the reason for that law?

Prabhupāda: Bull will not supply milk, so there is no use. It must be killed. Otherwise they are ferocious animal. You have made this law. The cows may be given some time to be killed, but the bulls should be killed immediately. This is their law.

Hari-śauri: Nor do the farmers actually want to keep them anyway.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: They are useless animals.

Prabhupāda: Simply expensive. But here in India they know how to utilize bulls--for transportation, for plowing and so many other things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a shortage of fuel, but there is no shortage of fuel with a bull.

Prabhupāda: No, rather, it will supply you gobar, fuel. Whatever he will eat, he will give you fuel.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In return.

Prabhupāda: In return.

Jayapatākā: But now the government is trying to teach the people that they should buy tractors and kill the calves.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jayapatākā: They want to have..., make tractors popular and then...

Prabhupāda: Kill the bulls. They were criticizing us because in our gośālā we maintain the male calves.

Prabhupāda: No, when our Harikeśa was struck by a bull and he was taken in the hospital, the doctor was criticizing, "If you have killed the bulls, then this condition would not have come to you."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Karma.

Prabhupāda: No. There will be no accident because this..., the acci...You know that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard about the accident.

Prabhupāda: There was some accident, and he was taken to hospital. So he was advised, "Because you do not kill the bulls, therefore this is the accident." As if without killing..., by killing the bulls there is no accident. And they do not cite the accident by motorcar, greater bulls. Accident will be there.

 

Morning Walk                                              Mayapur, February 4, 1976                                                        422449

Hṛdayānanda: It is said in Bhagavad-gītā, sa guṇān samatītyaitān. So when a devotee becomes very advanced, does that means that he should not feel a particular, an inclination to do a particular work but simply want to serve Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they can give up sex life? Unless he is liberated, how he can give up sex life?

Harikeśa: That's something which puzzles all the materialists.

Prabhupāda: Mater... They are rascals, mūòhas. Their only title is "mūòha," ass. Viśvanātha Cakravartī has described the karmīs as mūòhas. Karmīs are lowest grade of mūòhas. And above them the jïānīs. And above them, muktas, liberated. And above them, bhakta. And above all bhaktas, kṛṣṇa-bhakta. This is the graduation. So karmīs, they are all mūòhas.

Bhavānanda: There are other kinds of bhaktas other than kṛṣṇa-bhaktas?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Nārāyaṇa-bhakta, viṣṇu-bhakta. They are all Kṛṣṇa, but above all of them is kṛṣṇa-bhakta.

Bhavānanda: Many people in India, they say they are śiva-bhaktas.

Prabhupāda: They are all in the material world, karmīs. Karma-kāṇòa, ritualistic ceremonies. Prahlāda Mahārāja has described them. What is that very word used? And meaning is "one who cannot control their senses." Avijita-indriya. Ajitendriyāṇām, ajita, "one who could not conquer the senses," they are called karmīs. Ajitendriyāṇām. So all these penances, silence, meditation, then studying the Vedic literature, and so many things are there. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in one word he says, "They are meant for ajitendriyāṇām, one who could not conquer over the senses, for them." And for a devotee, one who is actually pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is sa guṇān samatītyaitān. Not that a tiny devotee can claim that he has overcome the influence of this world. No. This is called paramahaṁsa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān. Not that because you have taken to devotional..., you have become immediately. The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles. As soon as you become a rascal--"Now I have become advanced. I don't require to chant sixteen rounds. I can do whatever I like"--then he has gone to hell. Upstart, immediately he becomes paramahaṁsa. He's a rascal. He was given the path of becoming paramahaṁsa. One is admitted in the school, he must learn, and one day he will become M.A. But simply by entering in the school, if he says, "I am M.A.," that is rascaldom. This is a chance. To become jitendriya is very difficult task. But it is easy if he immediately becomes a pure devotee. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūṇyam: "Everything make zero, all desire, except Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is wanted. But that does not become very easily done. One has to try very rigidly; then he'll be paramahaṁsa. Therefore amongst the devotees, there are three grades: kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, and uttama-adhikārī. So if the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī thinks that "I have become uttama-adhikārī," then he's a rascal. He's a rascal. If he wants to imitate the uttama-adhikārī, then he's a rascal.

Hṛdayānanda: Is that cheating propensity?

Prabhupāda: Not cheating. Foolishness. It may not be cheating, but he does not know. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yat śraddhayehate... What is that? Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu...

Hṛdayānanda: Bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. The beginning is arcā, arcana. And because he was given the chance of arcana, if he thinks that "I become paramahaṁsa," then he's a foolish. It will take time. The process is there. Therefore preaching is madhyama-adhikārī. One should take to preaching work gradually. When the preaching... Preachers, they have got discrimination, "Here is abhakta; here is bhakta." But in the paramahaṁsa stage, uttama-adhikārī, he sees "Everyone is devotee. I am not devotee." That is uttama-adhikārī. Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī said, purīṣera kīṭa haite muïi se laghiṣṭha. Sanātana Gosvāmī said that "I am born in low-grade family. My work is low grade."

Morning Walk                                             February 19, 1976, Māyāpura                                                     423424

Acyutānanda: In Andhra, I said, "There's so much land where they're growing tobacco. You could grow food." But in the Gītā, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."

Prabhupāda: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutānanda: He can return.

Prabhupāda: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha haïā bhoga vāïchā kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.

Acyutānanda: In Kṛṣṇa book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvārakā. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is... Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuṇṭha and think of personal lust with Kṛṣṇa's associates?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Whatever He likes, He'll do. That is God. God is not meant for satisfying you.

Acyutānanda: That man was dragged down by the people in the audience anyway.

Guru-kṛpā: They took him out of...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: He was dragged down by the people in the audience. He was an agitator. (break)

Prabhupāda: This preaching work is a great fight, struggle.

Acyutānanda: It is very struggle.

Prabhupāda: So you are all soldiers. Even if you lay down your life by fighting, you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa will see that "This devotee has laid down his life," so He'll... He's... Asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam. Mām evaiśyasy asaṁśayam. So let us go on fighting. Even we die, what is that? We are going back to... Jīvo vā māro vā. A Vaiṣṇava, a sādhu, either he lives or dies, he is under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. (break) So if he dies in the battlefield, he goes to heaven.

 

Anyone who sees: "Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very... A very beautiful woman is very nice," he should not think of taking sannyāsa.

 

If you mislead them, if you mislead them, then what is the use of taking leadership?

 

Actually we are introducing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to make the Western people civilized. Yes. So you should take it very seriously and behave with responsibility. If you also want, become again like that, then how you'll be able to preach? Then what is the use of preaching?

 

Money is the criterion. Therefore people are accumulating money some way or other. He knows that "If I got money, then I'll have all influence over the society."

 

From the Vedic angle of vision, the Western people are the most uncivilized. Only money is covering them.

 

We are going to exhibit the Vedic culture throughout the whole world, and they'll come here.

 

Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. And those who are saintly person, they should be simply forgiving. That is their beauty…Forgiving. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Did Christ said that "Father, they did not know..."?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do. Forgive them for they know not..."

Prabhupāda: Just see how much forgiving. This is saintly character. They're killing, and still forgiving. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Christ is very ideal character, but these Christians, they not dignified him--degraded.

 

...how to respect food grain. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone should understand, "This food grain is supplied by Kṛṣṇa for our living. How can I disrespect?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

No, you should always remember that either gṛhastha or brahmacārī or sannyāsī, nobody can strictly follow all the rules and regulations of them. In the Kali-yuga it is not possible. So if I find simply fault with you, and if you find fault with me, then it will be factional, and our real business will be hampered. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that hari-nāma, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, should be very rigidly performed, which is common for everyone: gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī. They should always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then everything will be adjusted. Otherwise it is impossible to advance. We shall be complicated with the details only. This is called niyamāgrahaḥ. I think I have explained.

 

You get all your necessities of life from the earth. Now, you get food, you get drinking water, you get shelter, bamboo. These things will... You get cotton. So what is that slogan? Kapara...?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Roṭi kaparā makān.

Prabhupāda: Ah, everything, yes. Roti is there, kaparā is there, and makān is there. And wherefrom it is coming? Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From earth.

 

Why you are after factories? The mother earth is giving you everything. Therefore he's called mother. Seven mothers... One of the mothers is this earth. Dhenu dhātrī tathā pṛthvi sapteti mātari smṛtāḥ. Dhenu means cow, and dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvi. Pṛthvi means this land. So they are taking care of the land, nationalists, and killing the other mother, dhenu. A rascal civilization. If you are taking care of mother, you must take care of all mothers. No, they are mad after the land, but killing the other mother, dhenu. This is called rascaldom. (break) ...to give all comforts to the human brother, and they are sending the animal brother to slaughterhouse. What is this Communist? If you are Communist, if you are equal to all your brothers, why you should discriminate? And our communism is that even there is a snake in your home, you must see that he is not starving. This is spiritual communism. Nobody likes snake. Everyone kills. But śāstra says, "Even a snake is there at your home, you must see that he's not starving." This is communism, perfect.

If you get staying place, then you can act your brain and improve. And if you are harassed--no place--then brain will not work.

 

...grains, cows, all they should be very properly taken care of and the products offered to Kṛṣṇa. Everyone should be engaged as Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana everyone is engaged how to please Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana.

 

He is working and getting money, instead of making a good show of Deity and earn money. This is not required. If you want to earn money, go, work according to your capacity and earn money. Don't cheat people. That is Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

 

...to eat yourself, sufficiently, and if there is excess, then question of trade, vāṇījyam. Otherwise, if there is no excess, where is the question of vāṇījya?

 

Government means to give security to the property and life. So when the government will make law, "I can take your life whenever I like, and I can plunder your property as I like," then where is the law?

 

Yes, that is the only way. That is the only way. If you want to make them happy.... That we are preaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce grains. Everyone will eat nicely, and they will be happy.

 

Sādhu is above all this vṛtti, but still, you keep pace with the material world, otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti: "The dealings should be very honest."

 

It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall."

 

Everything contradictory. One side, contraceptive; one side, illicit sex. And the.... But Vedic civilization says, "All right, as soon as woman is widow, let her remain as a saintly woman--no more sex."

Sannyāsa means that, that "I shall live with the minimum necessities of life and simply devote..." That is sannyāsa. "I shall become a sannyāsī and enjoy all material facilities"--that is not sannyāsa.

 

The more we get material possession, our false egotism increases. "I have got this. I have got this. Who is more powerful than me?" Āòhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti sadṛśo mayā. These are described in the Sixteenth Chapter. What is the meaning of this ahaìkāra? Because vimūòhātmā, that "I have got this motorcar. I have got this property," but within a second it can be finished.

 

One who has used contraceptive and abortion method, by the will of God he will enter another mother, and the mother will kill him.

 

To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee. Why do you think like that?…To become a devotee is not so easy thing.

 

There is no small thing. Everything big thing for a devotee.

 

And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus?

 

Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad-gītā? Why don't you accept?.... It is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains...grow foodgrains, simple living.

 

...simply man looks after the animals, that he's strong and happy, they'll get food grains, the cooperation, and both of them happy. But they're not looking to that. They are trying to sell the grains and get more money, and purchase wine and enjoy. And when the animal will be unable to work, sell him to the slaughterhouse and get money. And for these sinful activities, they are suffering.

 

Everyone is trying to get more, and nature's order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That's all. If you take more, then you are thief, you'll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you'll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he'll lament that "I could not satisfy my desires. Let me take..." "All right, take another body. Satisfy." This is nature's punishment.

Everything will be explained in Bhagavad-gītā. So try to explain. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, yāre dekha, tāre kaha, 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa.' Bas, finished, "You become a guru." The trouble(?) is there. You haven't got to manufacture your ideas. Just like I'm quoting from Kṛṣṇa's preaching.

 

This industry is the cause of falldown of the human society--industry. So the reaction is.... The industry, two things required--four things required: land, labor, capital, and organization. So now the industry is going on, and the capitalists and labor, there is fight.

 

Live very simple life--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life--one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization.

 

Have brahminical school, what I am willing to do. That is required absolutely…This is brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, for the benefit of brahminical culture and cow protection. That is brahminical culture.

                  A brāhmaṇa, a gentleman, must feel that "Why there should be animal killing?" That is gentleman.

 

We should not possess anything which is not absolutely necessary. We are keeping these cars for preaching facility, not for sense gratification. We are keeping this dictaphone for preaching facility. Otherwise why it should be required?

                 Vedic civilization is in the forest. Go to the forest… There are so many forests in America, full of forests still. Africa, so many forests, big, big forests…. Just like you can live in this forest. And what you will eat? Two cāpāṭi. So you can go and beg. That's all. Whole day's business finished. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

                We are not advocating vegetarianism… So to become vegetarian is not ahiṁsā at all. It is a bogus theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is Vṛndāvana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME NINETEEN

Morning Walk                                           Mayapura, February 26, 1976                                                      423658

Prabhupāda: ...no more desire of material enjoyment he is fit for sannyāsa. Anyone who sees: "Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very... A very beautiful woman is very nice," he should not think of taking sannyāsa. Viṣa-bhakṣaṇād apy asādhu: "Such desires is most abominable, more than taking poison." To commit suicide by taking poison is most abominable thing, because he's going to be a ghost. He'll be punished to become a ghost, those who commit suicide. Or, if one is suddenly killed and he has so many desires, he becomes ghost. Therefore viṣa-bhakṣaṇa, taking poison, and die untimely, is most abominable, or commit suicide. By the material law also, to attempt to commit suicide is criminal. You know that?

Devotees: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is criminal. (Bengali) If you take s annyāsa... Just like there are so many sannyāsīs, for filling up the belly. Wherever you go they give some alms. But in..., outside India, who cares for the sannyāsī? Then why you should be eager to take sannyāsa and cheat yourself? You cannot cheat others, but you can cheat yourself.

Hṛdayānanda: Outside India a sannyāsī will starve.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So I do not know why our disciples are so anxious to take sannyāsa, at least those who are outside. Everyone comes: "Give me sannyāsa." What is the idea?

Jayapatākā: Freedom from authority.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Who cares him, for authority.

Jayapatākā: No, they, they don't want to take order as brahmacārī. If they're sannyāsī they think they can do as they feel.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to become leaders.

Prabhupāda: So what kind of leader? If you cannot lead others, what kind of leader?

Jayapatākā: That's why a brahmacārī should...

Prabhupāda: If you mislead them, if you mislead them, then what is the use of taking leadership?

Jayapatākā: That's why that system where a brahmacārī is recommended for one year and then he proves himself by doing some extraordinary preaching work is a very good system. Otherwise, anyone just comes and by pressurizing and begging and pleading, then they try to take sannyāsa. Then they don't stay to the path.

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa means ultimate success, because this human life is meant for becoming disgusted with this material life: "No more." Material life means to take a body and enjoy this material āhāra-nidrā, sleeping twenty-four hours, eating like elephant, and sex life like a monkey, these animals. This is material life, eating, sleeping, mating, and always afraid of. This is material life. And human life means to take freedom from these four things: no more afraid, no more sex, no more hankering after eating or sleeping. That is success. Everyone... You'll see in the sparrow in the morning. They're enjoying sex. So this is material life: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. And spiritual life means to become free from all this nonsense. That is spiritual life. They do not know what is spiritual life. The whole world, they do not know what is spiritual life. This is spiritual life, to become free from these four abominable things.

Hṛdayānanda: They are trying to increase these four things.

Prabhupāda: That means cheating themselves. What is the use of taking sannyāsa and cheat yourself? Material life means punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, repeatedly doing the same thing. Either as human being or as monkey or as a small ant or the demigods, but doing the business is the same, four things: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. In different scale, doing the same business. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaḥ, "again and again," carvita-carvaṇānām, "chewing the chewed." If one is sober, he thinks that "These four business, I have done many, many lives, as sparrow, or as jackal, or as demigod, and I have got this human form. Again I am doing this? So what is benefit of this human form of life?" This is sense. "I got this valuable life, and I am still doing the same thing as dogs and cats and sparrows? Then what is the difference between me and the dogs?" That is sense. "What is my better engagement?" That better engagement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then his life is successful. Otherwise what is the use of...? Again become a sparrow. Again wait for millions of years to come by evolutionary process to the human form of life. You see? This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. Because they cannot control the sense, they are going in the darkest part of this material existence.

Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems that in youth the desire to enjoy is so much stronger than in old age.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dayānanda: It seems that in youth it is, the desire to enjoy is stronger than in old age.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. An old man is still stronger, but instruments are finished. He cannot enjoy. But the desire is there. You don't think that old man has got less desire than the young man. He has got the desire, but his instrument is finished.

Hṛdayānanda: So much frustration.

Prabhupāda: Not. He cannot use the instruments for enjoyment.

Hṛdayānanda: So he's frustrated.

Prabhupāda: Frustrated? Everyone. Whether young or not, everyone is frustrated. He says that the desire in old man... It is expected because he has gone through the gṛhastha life. Gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. That's all. It is not needed. But those who are unable to avoid it--"All right, have for some time. Then become sannyāsī." This is the process. It is not needed. So in old age, after going through these stages, brahmacārī is learning how to stop this sex life, and then, if one is still unable--"All right, take concession for twenty-five years. Then give up this habit. Then take sannyāsa." So that is the process, one who has gone through the stages, expected that he has no more... āra nārī bapa (?) "I have done..." But generally, those who are not trained up, their desire is not diminished. They have got the... That you see in your country, Western country. Seventy-five, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Paying hundreds and thousands of dollars. Where is the...? He has lost all capacity, but still, he'll go. Still, he'll go. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. In the club, the son is also dancing with the girl, and the old father is dancing, and by chance, they come in contact. The Western civilization is for this, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna, eat voraciously, and all become diabetics. They have got diabetes club, association. That means... What is this? Diabetes is the result of voracious eating. That's all. In old age it becomes very prominent because he eats voraciously, but he cannot digest. And all these foodstuffs becomes... What is called? Glucose?

Hari-śauri: Right.

Prabhupāda: And then diabetes. The beginning--āhāra, eating. That gentleman, that doctor who has given us that review, he has. He's very learned man.

Indian man (1): Mr. Shannam?

Prabhupāda: No, no. From France.

Devotee (2): The professor.

Prabhupāda: Hm. He has mentioned, "From the Vedic standard, we are all uncivilized. We Westerners are uncivilized." He has admitted that. Actually they are.

Dayānanda: Yes, they will be shocked when they find this out because the idea is that...

Prabhupāda: Now, just like a man is suffering from tuberculosis, and if his physician says that "You are attacked with tuberculosis," then he'll shocked. But the fact is there.

Dayānanda: They think that the Vedic culture is uncivilized.

Prabhupāda: They think because they are foolish rascals. They do not know what is the value of life. Big, big professor, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything is finished. There is no soul." Professor Kotovsky. This is their education.

Dayānanda: And then they wonder why their sons become hippies and act like monkeys. Even though they are civilized, their sons are acting like monkeys.

Prabhupāda: Actually we are introducing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to make the Western people civilized. Yes. So you should take it very seriously and behave with responsibility. If you also want, become again like that, then how you'll be able to preach? Then what is the use of preaching? What is time?

Indian man (1): Six-thirty.

Jayapatākā: (Break) ...process.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: So is it necessary to be fixed up to take sannyāsa, or one should take sannyāsa to become fixed up?

Prabhupāda: To become fixed, become sannyāsī, the other three processes are there, to become brahmacārī, to become gṛhastha, to become vānaprastha, stage by stage. But if one is able, he can take sannyāsa. The stages are there, but if one is very competent, he can be given sannyāsa. And that competency is also very simple. If you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you can immediately become competent. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. As soon as you fully engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then immediately you become more than a sannyāsī.

Jayapatākā: Your Divine Grace is so merciful because the Western people, they are habituated to so many bad habits which weren't existed, existing in the Vedic time amongst the higher classes. Still, you are introducing all these things for them. Many times devotees, they don't take that seriously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) ṣaòbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. What is this? (break) ...our field or some other field, but food must be there. If you don't eat sufficiently, how you'll be able to work? Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. We are not after dry speculation. Practical. Eat sufficiently. Work sufficiently. Don't be lazy. But the danger is if you eat more than sufficient, then you'll sleep sufficient. Therefore yuktāhāra, as much as you require, take it. Don't take more; don't take less. This is the law of nature. Just like salt. You salt require. But if you take more, it is useless, and if you take less, it is useless. If in the vegetable the salt is more, then it is uneatable; if it is less, uneatable. Take as it is. It is not that "Because there is ocean of salt, let me three pounds' salt." That is going on. "Oh, it is available? Now let me eat." And then he becomes sick.

Dayānanda: For somebody who can work more, then he can eat little more.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dayānanda: If somebody can work more, then he can eat more.

Prabhupāda: No. Work more and work less doesn't matter. If he's actually hungry, he can take. Work must be there. If he does not work, what is the use of eating?

Jayapatākā: This program...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: The difficulty that every person has not got the same mentality... One...

Prabhupāda: That... That will depend on the preaching of the sannyāsīs. What is this? Frame?

Indian man (1): It's a hot iron building, Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: It's the wrong type of renunciation.

Prabhupāda: There is no renunciation. There is sense gratification. "I like this." That's all. He is thinking that "I am so renounced," but he's still satisfying his senses. That's all. As soon as we manufacture something, that is sense gratification. "I want to fulfill my desire. That's all." That is sense gratification. It may be I sit down on the tree, or I may sit down on the palace. That is sense... The basic principle is sense gratification. The other day I was talking about hīrā-cora and kṣīrā-cora. Hīrā means diamond. And kṣīrā means...

Devotees: Cucumber.

Prabhupāda: "I shall steal. I shall steal one cucumber." And another one thinks, "If I steal, I shall steal the diamond." But the stealing propensity is there, hīrā-cora or kṣīrā-cora. "Well, I am stealing one..., only one cucumber. That is not very dangerous." But, but to the eyes of law, both of them are criminal, either you take hīrā or kṣīrā. Big thief and small thief, that's all. Thief. You are thief. So we manufacture concoction that "Yes, I have got this stealing propensity. So I'll not steal diamond. I'll steal kṣīrā, not hīrā." This is only mental concoction, but he is a thief.

Jayapatākā: I think this side's...

Prabhupāda: Hm ?

Jayapatākā: So gṛhastha life is Kṛṣṇa allowing us to steal kṣīrā?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes, kṣīrā-cora. The prostitute-hunter is hīrā-cora, and he's a kṣīrā-cora. That's all.

Hari-śauri: (break) ...sense gratification that comes from renouncing like that, that's like the Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Hari-śauri: By artificial renouncing everything, they're actually simply another form of sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Not artificial. It is a process. We have to give up this sense gratification. Go through a process to trained up. Just like sometimes in the club there is artificial swimming. Is it not? Artificial swimming. That is not swimming. But to practice something.

Hṛdayānanda: Or the...

Dayānanda: But sometimes people who renounce like that, they become very proud. What is that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm.

Jagad-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are you pleased when your disciples do things like that?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagad-guru: Are you pleased when your disciples do things like that...?

Prabhupāda: Artificial?

Jagad-guru: Well, such things as Sharma Prabhu's doing.

Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? What is his question?

Devotee (2): He asked if you're pleased if your disciples do things like Sharma, if they, like, go to live in trees and do artificial renunciation?

Prabhupāda: No, he's trying. That's all. But active service is more important.

Hṛdayānanda: Hm. That is your example.

Prabhupāda: But something is better than nothing. If he goes, goes away to practice somewhere else, better give him chance to practice this. He's not doing anything bad. That is good. That is... But the better service is to be active servant, servitor.

Hari-śauri: That's your mercy on us.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personally He gives example. He could have done at His home. Why He took sannyāsa and went out of home?

Devotee (3): We have one boy at the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he doesn't want to do any work. He simply reads, and he says that "I will not do any work now, but when I become realized by reading," he says, "then I will engage in work."

Prabhupāda: No, no, he's reading. That is working. If he's... But he is sleeping, that is another thing. In the name of reading, sometimes we sleep. If that is not done, it is all right. He's reading. That's all right. But if he shows that "I am reading," but he's sleeping secretly, that is bad. To see that he's not sleeping, he's actually reading.

Indian devotee (4): He's life member also.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Anyway, if he's doing something, that's good.

Hari-śauri: I read where you said that if one simply reads, though, one cannot become realized in the philosophy. One has to actually do something practical, and then the realization will be there from what he has read.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: (break) ...are nondifferent.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: Service and reading are nondifferent?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if one is actually reading. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was reading. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau. But he must be expertly reading, not as a book worm, expert.

Jayapatākā: And on the other hand, sometimes devotees are only engaged in service, and then, without reading, and they...

Prabhupāda: But every, everyone... You cannot expect everyone is capable for reading.

Jayapatākā: They have desire to read, but they have no opportunity. And then in their service, they become... They lose sight sometimes, where they, because of fallen condition, they cannot remember Kṛṣṇa in their service. But while reading, one can easily..., cannot help but remember Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: If he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa, he will sleep. That is the test. When you have seen so many reading but sleeping, that means there is no Kṛṣṇa. Yāhāì kṛṣṇa tāhāì nāhi māyāra adhikāra. Sleeping is māyā, so if he's thinking of Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be sleeping.

Jayapatākā: No, I'm talking not about the reading half, but the service half.

Prabhupāda: Service also... Everything depends on advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If Kṛṣṇa is there, either you read or work as a coolie, the same thing.

Jayapatākā: You instructed that service is as good as reading, but only... We see that devotees only doing service without reading, then they become agitated in their mind.

Prabhupāda: That means there is no Kṛṣṇa. The real disease is there is no Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he'll be agitated, either reading or working.

Jayapatākā: So how can they, the Kṛṣṇa...?

Prabhupāda: That, if they... One must go through this practice. Everyone must attend the ārā..., maìgala-ārātrika. One must attend this. One must attend this. Otherwise no prasādam. If one says, "I am sick," no prasādam. "You are sick. You cannot digest. That's all." And sick, sleeping, and at the time of prasādam, voracious eating, that is not sickness. If you are sick, you cannot take food. Don't take. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                             February 27, 1976, Māyāpura                                                     423843

Prabhupāda: Just see. What he is? He's standing naked and taking photograph. His wife and he, standing naked. I have seen. And that picture is there in his sitting room, fireplace. That is the picture. (laughs) I went to see him. I was his guest. So one day I was... I saw there that big picture on the fireplace. And here is a public... Newspapermen go to him to take his opinion. "What is your opinion?" Just see. What is his value? Nobody... He is public leader because he has got some money. Money is the criterion. Therefore people are accumulating money some way or other. He knows that "If I got money, then I'll have all influence over the society."

Hari-śauri: A rich man no matter what his morals or character...

Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares.

Hari-śauri: ...he becomes very attractive.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good quality. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. These are the... From the Vedic angle of vision, the Western people are the most uncivilized. Only money is covering them. When they introduced that mini-skirt for the girl, how much abominable it was considered in India. But they very publicly introduced.

                                                                                                                                                                        423905

Jayapatākā: Aurobindo?

Prabhupāda: No, who says?

Jayapatākā: He always had some French people with him?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That... One French girl entrapped him. That woman spoiled him. He was actually practicing yoga very nice. After his release from political entanglement, actually he became a yogi, but this Frenchwoman, who became later on "Mother," she spoiled her ca..., his career. He became a bhogī then. (laughter) Instead of yogi... Otherwise, he was becoming yogi. You'll find from his photo. In the beginning, he was very lean and thin, and later on, when he died, he was very fatty. Means bhogī. (break) ...yogi bhogī, rogī. There are three.

Devotee (3): Rogī.

Prabhupāda: Rogī means diseased, and bhogī means flourishing, and yogi means transcendentalist.

Hṛdayānanda: Rogī.

Hari-śauri: What is...? A yogi passes stool once a day, a bhogī twice and a rogī more.

Prabhupāda: Who told you. Eh?

Hari-śauri: That's what we were told when we first joined the temple to stop us over-eating.

Jayapatākā: Some devotees were holding their stool for the next day to be a yogi, (laughter) the second time coming. And getting stomachache.

Prabhupāda: Is it a fact?

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Jayapatākā: I heard... They thought that was the criterion.

Prabhupāda: This is called makṣī maṇòa kanani. (?) A clerk was making a fair book from the rough book. So he went to the toilet room and he was... Like this. So all of a sudden his boss came: "What you are doing here?" "Sir, I am trying to capture one fly." "And why?" "No, I am making the fair copy of the book, but in the original book, there is a fly smashed. (laughter) So I have to paste one fly." There are such fools. Makṣī maṇòa kanani. "There is a fly, paste. So in the fair copy, there must be a fly, paste." (break) Yes. Unless there is pūjārī, what is the meaning of temple?

Jayapatākā: Separate?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is actual temple.

Jayapatākā: Well, they'll be so many brāhmaṇas being made.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayapatākā: Everything... Even he includes Buddha and Kalki.

Hari-śauri: All the incarnations as well.

Jayapatākā: I... In the last...

Prabhupāda: Daśāvatāra.

Jayapatākā: Fifty-three avatāras.

Prabhupāda: Fifty-three?

Jayapatākā: Yes, I don't..., he..., fifty-three, know why.

Prabhupāda: How many avatāras are there mentioned in the Bhāgavata?

Hari-śauri: About twenty-six or something like that.

Jayapatākā: Twenty-five, twenty-six.

Hari-śauri: Twenty-five or twenty-six. And then all the Viṣṇu expansions.

Jayapatākā: They needed twenty-four Viṣṇu expansions and then the incarnations in the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Twenty-six? That is Vaikuṇṭha. Anyway... (break) Yes, planetarium...

Devotee (4): Temple and planetarium.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (4): "World's largest planetarium and Temple of Understanding."

Prabhupāda: No "Understanding" simply Vedic "Temple of Vedic Planetarium," That's all. We shall show the Vedic conception of planetary system within this material world and above the material world. (break) We are going to exhibit the Vedic culture throughout the whole world, and they'll come here.

Jayapatākā: The whole world will be coming here to...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: ...visit.

Prabhupāda: Just like they come to see the Taj Mahal...

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...the architectural culture, they'll come to see the civilization culture, the philosophical culture, the religious culture by practical demonstration with dolls and other things.

Jayapatākā: And we'll be advertising that all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: It is a perfect plan.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: There can be a model of that temple in every temple all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: So then people can... Then advertising, "Come here."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Actually it will be an unique thing in the world. There is no such thing all over the world. That we shall do. And not only simply showing museum, but educating people to that idea.

Hṛdayānanda: Preaching.

Prabhupāda: Right. With factual knowledge, books, not fictitious. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                  March 5, 1976, Māyāpur                                                        424169

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...for getting a big display inside. And I got him to agree to only seventeen point five percent commission, which is very reasonable.

Prabhupāda: All right. Let them send. (break) ...is compared with a rose flower without flavor. Man with education is compared with the koi. (cuckoo bird) Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpam. The bird, koi, is very black, but his sound, sweet, so sweet, everyone likes. Kokilānām svaro-rūpaṁ vidyā-rūpaṁ ku-rūpanam, nārī-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ. And woman's beauty is how she is chaste and devoted to the husband. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā-rūpaṁ ku-rūpanam. And education is the beauty for the brain. And the beauty of the koi is her sweet voice. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. And those who are saintly person, they should be simply forgiving. That is their beauty.

Haṁsadūta: Forgiving?

Pusta Kṛṣṇa: Forgiving.

Prabhupāda: Forgiving. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Did Christ said that "Father, they did not know..."?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do. Forgive them for they know not..."

Prabhupāda: Just see how much forgiving. This is saintly character. They're killing, and still forgiving. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Christ is very ideal character, but these Christians, they not dignified him--degraded. So you can get on?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...how to respect food grain. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone should understand, "This food grain is supplied by Kṛṣṇa for our living. How can I disrespect?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, prasāda-sevā, not "prasāda eating." Prasāda-sevā. Prasāda should be accepted as Kṛṣṇa. And our eating means to serve Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has given. Eat them. Yes. That's all."

kṛṣṇa baòa dayāmaya, karibāre jihvā jaya

sva-prasāda-anna dila bhāi

sei prasāda-annāmṛta khāo, rādhā-kṛṣṇa-guṇa gāo

And at the same time also chant, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so kind. We are hungry, we are so greedy, and He has given so nice prasādam." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Pusta Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we have difficulty discriminating where the enjoying spirit stops and where the service spirit begins, especially when we take prasādam.

Prabhupāda: No, you should remember it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Then it is all right. Actually everything is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, you cannot live even for a moment. You should always remember. Kṛṣṇa bado dayāmaya. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa badā dayāmaya karibāre jihvā jāya, sva-prasāda-anna dila bhāi.

Hari-śauri: So if one cooks according to one's own tastes, and then offers it to the Deity, that is not so good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have to learn this now?

Hari Sauri: No, I'm just parrotting.

Pusta Kṛṣṇa: So is it that everything we do, are we trying to make some mental adjustment, that "We're taking prasādam..."?

Prabhupāda: Mental adjustment is nonsense. No mental adj... Actual. Mental adjustment is material. You have to follow the orders of superior. There is no question of mental adjustment. (break) You get all your necessities of life from the earth. Now, you get food, you get drinking water, you get shelter, bamboo. These things will... You get cotton. So what is that slogan? Kapara...?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Roṭi kaparā makān.

Prabhupāda: Ah, everything, yes. Roti is there, kaparā is there, and makān is there. And wherefrom it is coming? Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From earth. Why you are after factories? The mother earth is giving you everything. Therefore he's called mother. Seven mothers... One of the mothers is this earth. Dhenu dhātrī tathā pṛthvi sapteti mātari smṛtāḥ. Dhenu means cow, and dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvi. Pṛthvi means this land. So they are taking care of the land, nationalists, and killing the other mother, dhenu. A rascal civilization. If you are taking care of mother, you must take care of all mothers. No, they are mad after the land, but killing the other mother, dhenu. This is called rascaldom. (break) ...to give all comforts to the human brother, and they are sending the animal brother to slaughterhouse. What is this Communist? If you are Communist, if you are equal to all your brothers, why you should discriminate? And our communism is that even there is a snake in your home, you must see that he is not starving. This is spiritual communism. Nobody likes snake. Everyone kills. But śāstra says, "Even a snake is there at your home, you must see that he's not starving." This is communism, perfect. What are these he is collecting?

Devotee: Eggplant.

Prabhupāda: Eggplant? (break) Not of the sun but of the mist, one who is driving away, "Get out!" Now, just see. He is becoming pure. Yāhāṇ kṛṣṇa tāhāṇ nāhi māyāra adhikāra. Immediately there is Kṛṣṇa, there is no more māyā. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               Mayapur, March 10, 1976                                                         424536

Bhāgavata: About attraction and aversion... There's...

Prabhupāda: Hm? Attraction?

Bhāgavata: ...a point about attraction and aversion, that there's a complaint that sometimes there's too much aversion on the part of the brahmacārīs. But isn't that not a quality, to a point a brahmacārī should have a healthy contempt for sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying that sometimes the brahmacārīs, even the sannyāsīs, they may have a very strong aversion towards association with women and.or householder life, things of this nature. And sometimes the gṛhasthas will criticize the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs that "This is fanaticism," or it's, to the other end, "It's just as bad as the enjoying spirit, because you're meditating on the same thing, but only you're averse to it." So what is the...? Bhāgavata dāsa's question is "What is the condition?" Is it better to be neutral or to be averse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neutral.

Prabhupāda: These are all fanaticism. Real unity is in advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva... In Kali-yuga, you cannot strictly follow, neither I can strictly follow. If I criticize you, if you criticize me, then we go far away from our real life of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it correct to say that if we're not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then if it's not the gṛhastha problem, it would be some other problem?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We'll find something or another to absorb our time with besides Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, you should always remember that either gṛhastha or brahmacārī or sannyāsī, nobody can strictly follow all the rules and regulations of them. In the Kali-yuga it is not possible. So if I find simply fault with you, and if you find fault with me, then it will be factional, and our real business will be hampered. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that hari-nāma, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, should be very rigidly performed, which is common for everyone: gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī. They should always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then everything will be adjusted. Otherwise it is impossible to advance. We shall be complicated with the details only. This is called niyamāgrahaḥ. I think I have explained.

Madhudviṣa: In the Nectar of Instruction.

Prabhupāda: Niyamagrahaḥ is not good. Niyama means regulative principles. And niyama-āgrahaḥ is niyamāgrahaḥ. Āgrahaḥ means not to accept. And niyama-āgraha. Āgraha means only eager to follow the regulative principles, but no advancement spiritually. Both of them are called niyamāgrahaḥ. So the basic principle is that niyamāgrahaḥ is not recommended. The real business is that.... And if we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simple method, chanting twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ, then things will be automatically adjusted. You cannot find in Kali-yuga everything is being done very correctly, to the point. That is very difficult. Just like our poet, Allens Ginberg. He was always accusing me, "Swamijī, you are very conservative and strict." Actually, I told him that "I am never strict, neither I am conservative. If I become conservative, then I cannot live here for a moment. So I'm not at all conservative." (laughter) I was cooking, and I saw in the, what is called, refrigerator of Yeargen, Yeargon? What is his...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Jergen. That boy you were staying with.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah! I saw he kept some pieces of meat for his cat. So still, I kept my things in that refrigerator. What can be done? I had no place at that time. Jaya. (break) ...will be little earlier?

 

Morning Walk                                                 Mayapur, March 11, 1976                                                       424612                                       

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's been a feeling that all year their hard work has all become worthwhile simply by coming here.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Make it more.... Therefore I wanted first of all this house, not the temple, because where they'll stay? They'll come to the temple. Where they will stay? If you get staying place, then you can act your brain and improve. And if you are harassed--no place--then brain will not work. Therefore I wanted first of all the residential place. And they criticize me, "Oh, you did not construct temple first." And a temple of the devotees is first, our temple. Then God. God will come if there are devotees. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyantī mad-bhaktāḥ. Unless there is devotee, where is God? God is not a stone. Any stone is God? Unless there is devotees, there's no God. Therefore, without devotee: the idol, this is idol worship. That is not worship. Therefore they cannot understand what is the form, what is the distinction between form of the Lord and idol. They do not know how to worship in devotion. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. They are thinking, "It is stone, and God is remaining here, stone. He will never speak," because they are not devotee. If you become devotee.... Just like Sākṣī Gopāla. For devotee He went to give witness, "Yes, I'll walk." That is God. And if you are not devotee, how you can expect the stone statue is walking? You have read that Saksi Gopal?

                                                                                                                                                                        424671

Jayapatāka: They have big umbrella overhead.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they did it. They did it in South India when I was there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Nellore. That was wonderful.

Jayapatāka: We can make such arrangement?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ācāryopāsanam. That is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Ācāryopāsanam. It is not self-aggrandizement. The ācāryopāsanā goes to Kṛṣṇa directly. Therefore it is needed. Not that it is a pompous thing. Ācāryopāsanā. Kṛṣṇa says. That is the way of knowledge. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau.

Païcadraviòa: How does that work, that if somebody has the association of a pure devotee for only a lava, one-eleventh of a second, that he attains all perfection?

Prabhupāda: If he is so sincere.... Just like dried wood immediately ignites. And if it is moist, it does not. It is the quality of the wood. One takes three hundred years; one in three minutes. That's it. (break) One is dry from the material moist of contamination, he becomes immediately ignited in spiritual...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that drying process?

Prabhupāda: Drying process is for many, many years one has tried to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, for many, many lives, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. When he actually becomes man of knowledge he surrenders unto God. Otherwise he is lost. His drying process may take three minute or three millions years.

Guru-kṛpā: But that knowledge that Kṛṣṇa is everything comes by Kṛṣṇa's mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy is already there, but if you are not able to take it...

Païcadravida: Then you don't even have to hear from a self-realized soul. Simply by seeing him you can become completely purified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Both required. The matches must be also all right, and the wood must be also. Then there is fire. If one of them is defective, then, it will not.... But when you go to the fire, you become dry. But willfully we put again water. This nonsense business makes us late. This process is already there, how to become dry. But instead of taking the process, we put water. Then how it will be ignited? The rules and regulations is the drying process. But without following the rules and regulation, if you again become a victimized by māyā, then there is water and again dry it. So this is going on, watering and drying, watering and drying. No staightforward process for drying. That will help. But difficulty is that we dry and again water.

Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how did Choṭa Haridāsa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman?

Prabhupāda: His instance was that even an associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruc.... Otherwise he is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed this instance that "Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down." And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very strict.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. "You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that the same as in the Bhagavad-gītā where Kṛṣṇa says, "For one who is honored, dishonor is worse than death"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally taught this. To be victimized by māyā is possi.... There is possibility.... Just like Jaya and Vijaya. They were gatekeepers in the Vaikuṇṭha. They also fell down, Hiraṇyakaśipu. So this falldown, there is possibility in any moment because we are very small. We can be captivated by māyā at any moment. Therefore we shall be very, very careful. And if you fall down, then punishment is you make suicide. That's all. Then next life we shall see.

Satsvarūpa: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, in The Nectar of Devotion it says devotional service is so pure that there's no prāyaścitta necessary. Just again engage in your service.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not prāyaścitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that "This is the.... This should be done."

Guru-kṛpā: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year.

Prabhupāda: He was waiting if Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept him again. But when he saw that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not so lenient, he committed suicide. Vajrād api kaṭora. Harder than the thunderbolt and softer than the rose. This is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But, Prabhupāda, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict...

Prabhupāda: No, I am not Caitanya Prabhu. I am not.... Why you are comparing me? I am an ordinary man.

Guru-kṛpā: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide?

Prabhupāda: No.

Gurudāsa: We wouldn't have much of a movement, then.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're too attached to our bodies anyway, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if he falls down, that is automatically suicide. If he falls down, that means it is suicide. He got the chance. If he falls down, that is suicide.

Guru-kṛpā: Spiritual suicide.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual suicide. If one gets the chance of becoming eligible for going back to home, back to Godhead, and if he commits mistake and it is stopped, is it not suicide?

Guru-kṛpā: You once gave the example, Śrīla Prabhupāda, of taking your plane off the ground and then bringing it back to land again.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru-kṛpā: You once gave the example that you take your plane to a destination, and you have to turn around and come back and start all over again, take off again.

Prabhupāda: There are so many. Dṛòha-vrata. Bhajante mam dṛòha-vrata. So we should be very strong-minded and continue our devotional service very strongly.

 

Morning Walk                                                 March 12, 1976, Māyāpur                                                       424721

Prabhupāda: ...clean. That also we sometimes neglect. (break)...means rūpena jāyate iti prajā. Everything which is born, that is prajā. (break) ...children, our grandmother used to engage us for watering work, these pots. And that water was brought from down, two, three stories down, and we used to bring and put. That is good exercise and sport also, competition between children. (break) ...karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ. Everyone should be engaged. That is supervision. (break) ...are also engaged in serving Kṛṣṇa. They give flower, and they're offering: "Take this flower. Offer to Kṛṣṇa." This is service, dedicating. This is explained by Kṛṣṇa to Balarāma while going through the Vṛndāvana forest, that "Just see how the trees are welcoming You, how the birds..." You have got that picture?

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is seeing that, how everyone is ready to serve. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa-bhakta also sees how everyone is eager to serve Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...engage them rightly, that is leadership. Yes. Otherwise andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. As a blind leader is leading other blind men, this whole world is going on like that. They do not know how to properly lead the people. Misleaders. (break) ...grains, cows, all they should be very properly taken care of and the products offered to Kṛṣṇa. Everyone should be engaged as Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana everyone is engaged how to please Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. (break) ...business to study Vedānta. In Vṛndāvana life we see they were not interested to know what is Brahman. They were interested how to please Kṛṣṇa, how to see Kṛṣṇa smiling. That is Vṛndāvana. Huh? Is it not? From Vṛndāvana picture you see they are simply busy to see how Kṛṣṇa is smiling. They didn't care for studying. What they will study? They were all village girls born in the ordinary class, and they did not know. (break) That is the... Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim: "If Kṛṣṇa is served, then where is the necessity of tapasya?" No more tapasya. Tapasya is meant for the third-grade men to come to the stage of serving Kṛṣṇa. And one who is, with heart and soul is serving Kṛṣṇa, he has finished all tapasya. Tepus tapas te juhuvuḥ sasnur ārya. They have already finished all this tapasya. Therefore they have come to this stage. Kṛta-punya-punjaḥ. What is called? Piling.

Revatīnandana: Heaps of pious activities.

Prabhupāda: Ah, heaps of, yes. (break) ...Mahāprabhu, He immediately gives how to love and serve Kṛṣṇa, because this Kali-yuga, they will not be able to follow the regulative principles and become elevated. So He is therefore mahā-vadānyāya. He is giving a process--immediately, if followed, he becomes a lover of Kṛṣṇa and His service, immediately. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. (break)

Revatīnandana: ...circumambulating you, Prabhupāda, paying respects.

Prabhupāda: Of course, their vision, mahā-bhāgavata... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) That is very beautiful.

Revatīnandana: You mean the music?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That black.

Revatīnandana: Yes, it's very nice. He has blue eyes and big black body.

Devotee: Blue eyes?

Revatīnandana: Yes. It's amazing. If you look closely you will see...

Païcadraviòa: The gopīs, they didn't like very much being instructed by Uddhava?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That was dry for them. They asked Uddhava, "Bring Kṛṣṇa. We don't want you any more..." (break) What is his name? That...? Tapomāyā. Tapa... He never sees whether it is watered. He is in charge of agricultural department? Where is Jayapatāka? He never sees. One man should be in charge to see things are being done.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Each... What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Each flat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Each floor?

Prabhupāda: Yes, each floor. Yes. But Tapomāyā, he does not see even that the water is... He is in charge of agriculture?

Jayapatāka: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, it can be understood how he is seeing, he is managing. He does not see.

Jayapatāka: Right now we only have about four or five men here that are managing everything. He is also purchasing all the things for the festival. The GBC's have been requested to give some men...

Prabhupāda: That means he has no time. Then why he says that "I am in charge." He is not in charge.

Jayapatāka: He is trying to... (break)

Prabhupāda: After all, they are boys. They are not grown up. (break) ...your Calcutta program?

Jayapatāka: They're going tomorrow morning. (break)

Bhavānanda: ...maṭha, and then we went to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha. So Acyutānanda gave a very strong lecture at Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha that in order to make devotees who are chanting the holy name, it takes more than any material calculation or business sense, that you have be infused with the potency of the Supreme Lord. All of the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs were standing out on the balcony and hearing Acyutānanda glorify Your Divine Grace. All the devotees went in.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...small card. So one card is put into the shoes, and one card is in his hand. That's all. Number. Suppose twenty shoes duplicate, so one twenty card is put into the shoe and one number twenty in his hand. So a man can see that it is his shoe.

Yaśodānandana: Instead of requesting ten paisā, they may be requested to offer something to the Deity.

Prabhupāda: Why? Nothing. Let them come and see. That's all.

Yaśodānandana: (break) Our Deity is not beggar.

Prabhupāda: No. He is bestower. He gives everything. If anyone voluntary gives, that's all right. You should not ask. (break) ...instead of doing this. (Bengali) He said like that. "By showing the Deity to earn livelihood is condemned. Better become a sweeper, municipal sweeper, and sweep the road and earn money." He said like that. That is better, honorable. He is working and getting money, instead of making a good show of Deity and earn money. This is not required. If you want to earn money, go, work according to your capacity and earn money. Don't cheat people. That is Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

Païcadraviòa: There was a big fight or difference of opinion, wasn't there?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Païcadraviòa: There was trouble in Navadwip, wasn't there, when he advised the pilgrims not to pay money to go into the temples?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was fight against it. All, Nabadwip, Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana is not so... But still, they have got rate. One thing, it is a question of heart, that a man should come and visit the temple--he must give something. Why he is to be asked? Voluntarily he should give that.

Yaśodānandana: Yes. We were reading in Nectar of Devotion this morning. Your Divine Grace is writing that it is customary in India that whenever one visits the Deity or a saintly person to offer something, even one grain of rice.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system.

Lokanātha: But encouraging is not recommended?

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that encouraging?

Yaśodānandana: Requesting should not be done.

Prabhupāda: No.

Lokanātha: It is voluntary.

Prabhupāda: Encouraging means your behavior should be so nice that he voluntarily gives. That is encouraging, not that begging and "Put something here. My belly is empty." (laughter) ...that is nice, that "Here is an institution. You kindly become a member. Help us." That is another thing. But why should you earn by showing the Deity? You work so nicely they will become voluntarily member, contributing. That is nice. But not that "Now we have got Deity. He's starving. Please give me something." No. That is not good prac...

Païcadraviòa: You showed the example when you came to New York. You were cooking chapatis and everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise who would cook at that time? (break) ...apartment. So I was cooking, and he liked. He thought that "Without any payment, I have got a cook."

Revatīnandana: Dharmadhyaksa dāsa used to be one of his disciples before he joined your, he became your disciple. And he said that he was talking to Dr. Miśra, and Dr. Miśra still talks about your cooking. He said, "Oh, Swamijī, he saved my life." He said, "He taught me how to eat properly." He still talks about you.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...improved his health. He says still?

Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Revatīnandana: Dharma was telling me.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...to rise early in the morning and do whatever is needed. Then, at nine, half-past nine, I will go his apartment and begin cooking. Then, after finishing, I'll take my bathing, and then we shall eat together. And then, after eating, I will go to the Fifth Avenue for loitering.

 

Morning walk                                                March 13, 1976, Māyāpur                                                         424859

Prabhupāda: ...to eat yourself, sufficiently, and if there is excess, then question of trade, vāṇījyam. Otherwise, if there is no excess, where is the question of vāṇījya? You are starving. (break) Then we shall. There is no excess. (break) ...will spoil everything everywhere. (break) "The government men will take up the policy of plunderers and rogues," that is stated.

Dasyu-dharma. Dasyu means plunderer. He catches: "What you have got, give me." This will be government. "What you have got, give me." Bas. You cannot say anything. "Law." Plundering is law. Then where is your government? If killing is law, plundering is law, then what is this government? Government means to give security to the property and life. So when the government will make law, "I can take your life whenever I like, and I can plunder your property as I like," then where is the law?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The government's duty, then, is to protect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is government. That is kṣatriya. Ksat trāyate iti kṣatriya. Kṣat means injury, and one who gives protection from injury, he is kṣatriya. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. As soon as he saw a cow is attempted..., immediately he said, "Who are you, rascal? You are trying to kill this cow in my kingdom?" That is kṣatriya. And nowadays, even if I kill you, the police will see from there; he'll not come. This is government. And when the finished killing, then he will say, "Who is this man?" He'll note down, "A man is killed." And then inquiry, and then finished. Who is the man killed and what is happened? Nothing of the sort. Inquiry and finish. Big commission report.

 

Morning Walk                                               March 14, 1976, Māyāpur                                                         425129

And then he becomes immediately. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then my life is successful. This much. Is it very difficult?

Gurukṛpā: No, it's the easiest thing.

Prabhupāda: Kavirāja Gosvāmī has explained very nicely. This is viśvāsa. Śraddhā śabde viśvāsa sudṛòha niścaya. Explain, Acyutānanda, this. Explain this.

śraddhā śabde viśvāsa sudṛòha niścaya

kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya

Acyutānanda: If you have firm faith in Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then all other activities and responsibilities are fulfilled by serving Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Acyutānanda: Dāya mama gelā; tuwā...

Prabhupāda: Tuwā o pada baraṇe(?) This is required.

Acyutānanda: Serving the root.

Prabhupāda: "My only responsibility is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa"--then this very conception will save you.

Rāmeśvara: I spoke with one man who argued that "Kṛṣṇa is very cruel because He knows everything past, present and future, so He knew that we would all fall down from the spiritual sky, but still, He gave us the independence to fall down."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: "Even though He knew we would fall, because He knows everything..."

Acyutānanda: That's a common question.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolish question. Unless you have got independence, what is your life? Then you are dead stone. You want to become a dead stone? That is not Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa does not give such perfection, that you become a dead stone.

Acyutānanda: "The thing is that because Kṛṣṇa knows the future, past, present, and future, so He knew that we would fall down, so why didn't He help me?"

Prabhupāda: No, no, future means, just like.... This is the law of nature, that if you steal, you'll be punished. So if I say, "Oh, you are stealing; you'll be punished," this is future. Suppose this is the month of March, and if I say, "In the month of July there will be rain." So I know; you know; everyone knows. This is not a future telling. The natural sequence is everyone knows it.

Madhudviṣa: But does that means that Kṛṣṇa doesn't know something?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.... If everyone knows, why Kṛṣṇa does not know? "He knows everything" means this common sense everyone knows.

Madhudviṣa: Does He know what you will choose?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Just try to understand. Future means like this: nature's law; and it will happen. After summer there will be rainy season; it will happen, and they will call, I am foretelling future. It is not future; it is natural sequence, automatically happened.

Satsvarūpa: But that's predictable. If I have my own free will, what I'm going to do, you don't know.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are in knowledge, you can predict. But if you are fool, you cannot say. If I see that in July there will be rain, and if you are a fool, you'll protest. That is your foolishness. It is natural sequence, one after another.

Madhudviṣa: When is the natural sequence...?

Prabhupāda: Natural sequence.... Just like you are infected, some contaminous disease. You'll suffer. There is a story that one fool was sitting on a branch of a tree and he was cutting off. And somebody said, "You'll fall down." "Ha, fall down." But when he fell down he said, "Oh, you are a great astrologer." So who goes to the astrologer? Only fools and rascal. No sane man goes. They know that what is.... Yad bhavyantam tad bhavata.(?) What is to happen, that will happen. Why shall I go to astrologer?

Gurukṛpā: I can prepare myself to make change.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My only business is to serve Kṛṣṇa. I don't mind what will happen next.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That desire to serve Kṛṣṇa, though, that Kṛṣṇa....

Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. That desire everyone has. He is serving. He is serving so many things, but he doesn't want to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is his foolishness. He is serving māyā; still, he denies to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is his misfortune. Ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. So unless one is very fortunate, he does not agree to serve Kṛṣṇa.

Madhudviṣa: So that future is determined by the great souls, such as yourself.

Prabhupāda: No, that...

Madhudviṣa: Because you are creating people's good fortune.

Prabhupāda: Fortune, there. It is already there. I am simply informing.

Madhudviṣa: No, but you actually engage them in ajïāta-sukṛti, meritorious activities, even unwillingly performed.

Prabhupāda: But this is the duty of everyone. One should not.... That is enjoined in the.... Gurur na sa syāt: "One should not become a guru if he cannot do that." Otherwise he is cheating. Why he should become guru? Why he should accept service from so many people if he cannot rightly direct them? Then he becomes bound up by the karma laws. If I take one paisa from you without any service, I have to pay you four paisa.

Mahāṁśa: In the spiritual world the living entity is full of knowledge, so does he...

Prabhupāda: That is enjoined, ordered, "You should not become guru if you cannot save him. You should not become father if you cannot save him." This is sastric injunction. First word is gurur na sa syāt pitā na sa syāt. Why you are claiming? Just like.... We are not going to become guru like that.... What is that rascal?

 

Morning Walk                                                March 15, 1976, Māyāpura                                                      425369

Prabhupāda: It is not our policy that the whole country will be on our side. That is not.... At least some of them may be interested. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yaśodānandana Mahārāja says that the Chinese Bhagavad-gītā is ready for publication.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's at the printer. It will be ready in two weeks.

Revatīnandana: Another interesting thing about China is because they have such a huge population, in order to feed the population they've had to turn to production of agricultural products rather than meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only way. That is the only way. If you want to make them happy.... That we are preaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce grains. Everyone will eat nicely, and they will be happy.

Revatīnandana: Not only are they increasing grains, but because it's so much more economical to produce grains than to produce animals...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural.

Revatīnandana: ...they are largely vegetarian.

Prabhupāda: That is natural.

Revatīnandana: It's a largely vegetarian country out of necessity, which may be good for preaching.

 

Morning Walk                                               March 16, 1976, Māyāpura                                                       425464

Devotee (1): You want a loṭā for...?

Prabhupāda: What for the loṭā is there?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To water the tulasī.

Prabhupāda: See is there any loṭā?

Devotee (1): No loṭā.

Prabhupāda: See how aparādhī, offender. They have used that loṭā for watering. Great offender. This is going on, mlecchas and yavanas.

 

Room Conversation                                        March 16, 1976, Mayapur                                                       425760

Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political game (gain?) he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee, expert. Not that "I have nothing to do with these material things." No.

prāpaïcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

vairāgyaṁ phalgu kathyate

The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men?

Ādi-keśava: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. He is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies, material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere. Just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. Everything is Bhagavān but appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything.... kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything..., in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpaïcikatayā buddhyā, by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga? Neither tyāga, neither bhoga. Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here.

Bhagavān: Yes. She is here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage.

Prabhupāda: Utsāhān.

utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt

saìga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ

ṣaòbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati

Utsāha is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu-saìga, association of sādhu. Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu--then it is material. Utsāhān means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. Who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu. So the association of such sādhu.... Sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saìge. Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtti, but still, you keep pace with the material world, otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti: "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saìge, ṣaòbhiḥ, six items. Utsāhān, enthusiasm; dhairyāt, patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt, with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ, and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saìga. Everything perfect.

                                                                                                                                                                              425820

Prabhupāda: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index, list.... The purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu--He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself--He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating; therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our.... So be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saìkīrtana. Saìkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saìkīrtana. Otherwise kīrtana. Saìkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saìkīrtana.(?) Bahu. Bahu means many, many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons they should combine together. There is hope in our society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone; it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is.... Even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa--"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or...?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Egocentric.

Prabhupāda: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be Kṛṣṇa-centric.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say, "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality.

Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in "Ohe Vaiṣṇava Öhākura." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari-nāma-saìkīrtane.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning?

Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saìkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ideal.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So prasādam? Now, we are fasting.

 

Morning Walk                                                March 17, 1976, Māyāpura                                                      426188

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, yes. (pause) Therefore our mission is to bring Māyāpura everywhere.

Devotee (5): Jaya.

Prabhupāda: This is the greatest peace movement, to bring peace to the suffering humanity.

Haṁsadūta: If a devotee thinks that he likes, for example, Vṛndāvana more than he likes Māyāpura, is that a wrong thinking, or is that his personal...?

Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Gauòa-maṇòala-bhūmi, yebā jāne cintāmaṇi.

Haṁsadūta: Just like some devotees, they worship Rāma, and some worship Kṛṣṇa. It is like that?

Prabhupāda: They know there is no difference from Vṛndāvana. They are not so fool...

Haṁsadūta: Not so...

 

Morning Walk                                                March 18, 1976, Māyāpura                                                      426196

Haṁsadūta: ...Yeah. That's auspicious

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: That's auspicious?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gaura-Nitāi!

Gurudāsa: Gaura-Nitāi.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...moon is going around the earth.

Gurudāsa: Tree.

Prabhupāda: So why the moon is, particularly rises from the eastern side? The moon, according to the...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Scientists.

Prabhupāda: The moon is going round like this. So why the moon is rising from the eastern side? It is going around. Why it appears from the eastern side?

Devotee: They say because the earth is spinning on an axis.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Païca-draviòa: 'Cause the earth is turning.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very good question. (laughter)

Gurudāsa: What's the answer, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: So you answer. He has understood.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: According to Bhāgavatam, the moon is not going around the earth. It is revolving around Mount Sumeru. Isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. According Bhāgavata, that is a different thing. But this...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But why the moon should simply follow that same pattern...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...going east to west, east to west? Why not...?

Bhavānanda: Random.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At random. Sometimes rising from the south.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, perhaps, from the north.

Haṁsadūta: Well, they say it has a fixed orbit around the earth.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: It has a fixed orbit around the earth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who fixed the orbit?

Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chance.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chance.

Prabhupāda: And the sun is also rising from the east. But sun is fixed up, and the moon is moving. So why they are coming from the same side?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wonderful question. These are wonderful things.

Hari-śauri: Well, they say that the moon, the moon is actually moving around the earth.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri: And the earth is rotating, and the sun is, only appears to move around the earth.

Prabhupāda: Is that question answered?

Païca-draviòa: Well, they both appear that way because of the turning of the earth.

Prabhupāda: The sun is fixed up.

Païca-draviòa: But the earth is turning.

Prabhupāda: Earth is turning, and moon is turning. But why the sun and moon rises from the same side?

Païca-draviòa: 'Cause the earth turns in that direction.

Prabhupāda: Just talk if it is proper answer.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't the moon sometimes rise in the south? Or the north?

Païca-draviòa: Because the sun.... Because the earth is not turning in the opposite direction.

Prabhupāda: What he is doing on the roof?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no.

Hari-śauri: He's taking photographs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. This boy joined us.... (break)

Gurudāsa: ...rather than the chaos.

Païca-draviòa: What is the Vedic explanation, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Vedic explanation is that moon is not going round the earthly planet. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is very revolutionary thought.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because children all over the world in schools, they're taught simply that the moon is going around the earth. They shouldn't question it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they say, "You should not question"?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, should not question it. It's taken as fact.

Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is going round the earth, beginning from here to there, similarly, the sun is also going around earth, because we see the similar way, it is rising and going that way. So how you can say one is fixed, one is standing? The process, we find the same. How you can say that this is fixed and this is going around? Why is...? If the process is the same, then the result will be the same.

Hari-śauri: (break) .... accepted the sun was moving, then they wouldn't be able to prove that...

Prabhupāda: And the.... And the moon is not seen also for fifteen days in the morning (month?). As a layman, we should say that, as the moon is rising from this side and going to this side, the sun is also rising from this side. So if the moon is moving, the sun is moving.

Païca-draviòa: If that's true, then how does.... What about the changes in the moon's face? Sometimes...

Prabhupāda: True or nontrue, I am layman. I am saying that if the moon is rising from this side and going to this side, so sun is also rising from this side and going to this side. So if the moon is moving, the sun is moving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Common sense.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, I am a layman. Actually sun is moving, but they say fixed up.

 

Morning Walk                                               March 19, 1976, Māyāpura                                                       426524

Prabhupāda: "These people, they have no illicit sex, no intoxication?" Oh, immediately they become praising, "Such wonderful men. No illicit sex?" which is unknown to you, the Western people.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think it is like Superman.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Superman, actually. That is the fact.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, today starts a big international convention for the Association for Asian Studies, and we're there. It's in Toronto. We have an advertisement in this book, with Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, with a quote by that Bruce Long. And we have that big sign at our booth: "The largest publisher and distributor of books on the philosophy, culture and religion of India." This shows also with all the exhibitors, we're listed, the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. And this is where we are, this booth here.

Prabhupāda: So who is taking care?

Satsvarūpa: Two of the library men who didn't come, just so they could go to this convention.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...therefore they search. And who goes to the airport? All respectable gentlemen, who can pay lump sum for air fare. So he's also searched out. That means there is no gentlemen. The airport security is searching through. Then in this world there is no gentleman, no honest men.

Haṁsadūta: Everyone is suspected.

Prabhupāda: All rascals. This is the position.

Hari-śauri: But when you go through, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everybody offers their respects.

Prabhupāda: They also sometimes show me the favor, but generally.... Sometimes they also search.

Guru-kṛpā: Search your pockets?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, like this. (laughter) That way.

Devotee (1): That's a great mercy for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mercy. When they excuse a saintly person, that is, that is their great mercy. Now, according to Vedic law, a saintly person is never subjected to any law. He's paramahaṁsa. He's never.... Rather, the order is he must be given all help that he wants. That is the Vedic civilization. And brahmacārī, sannyāsīs, they should be treated as children at home, so that wherever they go, they will be treated just like children: "Oh, he's my son. He's my dependent." They will treat like that. And they also go to every home: "Mother, give me some food." So he's children, as the child asks from the mother, "Give me some food." This is system. This is civilization. And M.A., Ph.D., and searching after woman, how to induce her, and being searched out in the airport, whether he's a rogue--what is this education? We don't want this education. (break) ...student life we have seen practically, one big professor, Dr. Brajendranatha Śrī. So he had another Ph.D. student, and that student kidnapped his daughter and went away. He was so educated that kidnapped his teacher's or the master's daughter and went away. . What is that word? Kāmātura.

Devotee (1): Kāmāturaṁ harṣa-śoka-bhayaiṣaṇārtam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is kāmāturam. Prahlāda Mahārāja, millions of years ago, a five-years-old boy, he's stating what is the position of the materialistic person. This is Bhāgavata. (break) ...education system should be stopped, rascal, producing rascals and hippies in the university. What is the use of this education? Atheists, putting simply theories, and that is also nonsense, and it is going on in the name of education. (break)...Paṇòita says.... Who is paṇòita? Recite.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu...

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. The.... Is.... It is moral instruction, what to speak of high education. Means it, preliminary moral education. That is,

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇòitaḥ

This is learned. What is the meaning? Explain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who sees...

Prabhupāda: No, no. He'll explain.

Devotee (1): Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means "every woman." "Who can see every woman like, like mother..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Para-dravya means money, something of others.

Prabhupāda: "Belonging to others."

Devotee (1): Yes, "of others." So who can see like loṣṭravat...

Prabhupāda: That is para-drav...

Devotee (1): ...rubbish, or like rubbish, cannot take, cannot pick up. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "Every living entity," ātmavat, "like he himself."

Prabhupāda: Yes, as we feel pains and pleasures...

Devotee (1): Sa yaḥ paśyati: "Who can see like that..."

Prabhupāda: ...they should know the others also will feel. If my throat is cut, I feel, and "Why shall I cut the throat of another, poor animal?" This is learned man. And this rascal, maintaining slaughterhouse, and learned man? And they cannot understand. And big, big priests, they'll defend: "Oh, this 'Thou shalt not kill' means it is meant for the men, not for the ani..." They'll put arguments. Christ says clearly, "Thou shall not kill" and they will defend.

Trivikrama: Even abortion they are defending.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Trivikrama: Even abortion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And this is going on as education, as saintly person, priest. These things are going on in the name of religion, in the name of education. How much fallen this world is, just try to understand. As soon as they are caught up, they'll defend only by arguments, counter-arguments.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they have no standard?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they have no standard?

Prabhupāda: No. How they can have standard? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. How they can have good standard? Because they are atheists, godless, there cannot be. That is the test. As soon as he is godless, he's rascal. Never mind M.A., Ph.D. That's all. This is our conclusion. As soon as you know that "Here is a godless atheist," he is rascal. Bas, finished. Exactly like.... Suppose you are in India, and if you think, "No, there is no government. It is going on automatically," then you are rascal, immediately. Is it very sane man, sane man's statement, statement, that "No, no, there is no God. It is going on"? So atheist means rascal. Such a nice arrangement is going on, exactly at 6:15 the sun is there, and "There is no government. There is no God." Just see how rascaldom. And then what it is? "By chance." And he is scientist. We have to consider them educated scientists? Are we going to be fooled like that? "There is no government." "There is no father." How the child came? "There is no father." Just see. A woman has got a child. And if somebody says, "Yes, she has got child, but there is no need of a father," is that sane man's proposal? Nature is producing, and nature is prakṛti, but where is the puruṣa? Prakṛti-puruṣa. So without puruṣa, how prakṛti can produce? That puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam, Kṛṣṇa.... Is that all right?

Devotee (1): Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Prabhupāda: Ādi-puruṣam. Govindam ādi-puruṣam, that puruṣa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. We are worshiping that supreme and original person. And the women are declaring, "independent." They are begging door to door to a man, "Please give me shelter. Give me a child," and they're independent. One American woman, was.... She was speaking that "In India the woman are treated as slave. We don't want." So I told her that it is better to become slave of one person than to slave of become hundreds. (laughter) The woman must become a slave. So instead of becoming slaves of so many persons, it is better to remain satisfied, a slave of one person. So she was stopped. She was the secretary of that Dr. Miśra. You know that? And our Vedic civilization says, narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam: "The woman is beautiful when she remains as a slave to the husband." That is the beauty, not the personal beauty. How much she has learned to remain as a slave to the husband, that is Vedic civilization. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpam. The cuckoo, it is black bird, but why people love it? Because of the sweet voice. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā-rūpaṁ kurūpaṇam. A man may be ugly, black, but if he's learned, everyone will respect him. And narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. And the beauty of woman is how much she is devoted and obedient to the husband. So it is very difficult. (break)

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, the education is to teach the students how to find out on their own. They say if you take authority from somebody else, it just stifles their growth, and that is not actually knowledge, that is not learning. But you encourage them or give them the facility...

Prabhupāda: But why the rascal is called to the school? He may learn at home.

Devotee (2): Well, they want to condition them...

Prabhupāda: What?

Devotee (2): ...with various values.

Prabhupāda: What is the value? If you are calling him to take education from the school, that means he is accepting authority. Let him be educated at home. Why the college?

Devotee: But in the classrooms, they simply...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, first of all, the principle? What is this principle?

Rāmeśvara: To train him in the methods of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means authority. You are teaching him to accept the authority. And you are teaching against authority. Everything contradictory. One side, contraceptive; one side, illicit sex. And the.... But Vedic civilization says, "All right, as soon as woman is widow, let her remain as a saintly woman--no more sex." But "No, you can marry and you can have sex hundred times daily, but use contraceptive." Is that civilization? To train one woman not to have any more sex, this is also contraceptive. And another way that "You can have sex any amount, as many times as you like. Take this contraceptive." Whose civilization better? And you call him to be trained up to accept authority and teach him, "Don't accept any authority." Is that education? Nonsense.

Haṁsadūta: They're doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are doing that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the idea of the secular state, though...

Prabhupāda: Well, secul.... Whatever you name it, you're all set of rascals. That's all. (laughter) You can change the name in different way, but on the whole, you are all set of rascals. This is the whole world's beauty.

Païca-draviòa: This modern theory, Prabhupāda, is that if a person wants to.... If he can maintain more than one wife nicely and wants to keep more than one wife, they won't allow. But if he can keep many young girls and spoil every one of them, that is...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Païca-draviòa: .... that is praiseworthy.

Prabhupāda: And advertise publicly: "Topless, bottomless women are available here. Come here. School is open at ten o'clock at night. It goes on up to four." I have seen it. This is civilization, nightclub and topless, bottomless shop.

Rāmeśvara: The women argue, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they can be given.... If they are given a good chance, they can make equal contribution in business, in science. So they are demanding equal rights, equal employment.

Prabhupāda: So why.... Why not equal rights that you stop producing children like the man? The man does not produce. Why you are obliged to produce?

Rāmeśvara: That is their special qualification.

Prabhupāda: That is.... Similarly, everything is special. You are a different entity. You must have different engagements. That is your perfection.

Rāmeśvara: But we all have.... The women and men, they all have the same brain, they say.

Prabhupāda: No, that I protested in Chicago. Yes. "And no, that is not the fact. The fact is man has 64 ounce. The woman has 36 ounce.... Highest."

Devotee (2): They'll say intelligence is not dependent on the size of the brain.

Prabhupāda: They say anything because they are rascals. A rascal can say anything. Pāgale ki nā bale chāgale kibā nā khāya: "A madman, what he does not say? And a goat, what he does not eat?" (laughter)

Païca-draviòa: (break) ...Vedic civili...

Prabhupāda: Vedic civilization means you don't talk rascal. Hear only. Śruti. This is Vedic civilization: "You rascal, don't talk. Simply hear." This is Vedic civilization, śruti. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: "Go to guru and hear from him." That is Vedic civilization. Don't talk, rascal. This is Vedic civilization. And Vedic civilization begins, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is Vedic civilization: "Don't talk, rascal. Just, just carry out what I say." This is Vedic civilization.

Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one BTG article, you listed...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rādhāvallabha: In one BTG article, you described increase in women population as a natural disaster.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhāvallabha: So when one woman read this article, she became very angry. She came back and was very angry.

Prabhupāda: She may be angry. She is woman and man. Actually this is physiological. If a man is too much addicted to sex life, he'll become impotent, and if he begets child, it will be a girl. With no potency to give birth to a male child.... That requires potency.

Haṁsadūta: When we were going around in London making life members, I noticed that in so many families, all the children are girls.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is full of girls, girl children. Why? There is no potency. Potency finished. Or impotent. And if you keep one boy brahmacārī, no sex life, and get him married, the first child must be a boy, must be, without any doubt.

Lokanātha: That means, then, woman is more potent than...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. The Āyur-vedic formula is that when there is discharge, woman's discharge, more, means girl, and man's discharge, more, means boy. This is physiological.

Rāmeśvara: The women argue that they are stronger than the men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are stronger than the man, that when there is fight, the man goes; you do not go. You are so strong. You are simply ravished in the absence of your husband. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: Now.... The women are joining the Army in America now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen a police in London. So I told that "If I catch your hand and give you a slap, where is your police?" (laughter) "I am old man. If I catch your hand and give you a slap, what police action will be there?"

Païca-draviòa: Prabhupāda, who is that prostitute the gopīs refer to...?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Païca-draviòa: In the Kṛṣṇa book the gopīs say that "The great prostitute," I forget the name, "Pimba," or something, "says that..."

Prabhupāda: Kubjā, Kubjā, Kubjā.

Satsvarūpa: Disappointment.

Prabhupāda: Kubjā.

Devotee: Kubjā?

Païca-draviòa: Yeah, she said.... That prostitute has said "Disappointment is the greatest pleasure."

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Gives rise to the highest pleasure."

Païca-draviòa: The gopīs refer to that when they...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Païca-draviòa: Who was that prostitute?

Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? (laughter) As if I have to keep account of prostitute. (laughter) What is this nonsense? There was a big educationist, Visacandra Vidyasagara(?). So.... So to show compassion to the prostitutes, at night in a.... In India I have seen in our childhood, prostitute, they stand on the road. And in Paris I have seen.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, they.... So, so they're standing--no customer at two o'clock. It is very cold. So Vidyasagara will take compassion: "All right, you take two rupees. Go home. Sleep." And that is in Vidyasagara's life, compassionate to the prostitute. By giving her two rupees, will she change her profession? But this learned man, he thought like that, that "She is standing in the severe cold. All right, let me.... Let me.... Let me give her two rupees. Then go home. Don't take so much..." He's Vidyasagara. The vidyā-sāgara means "ocean of education." And Haridāsa Öhākura--a prostitute came for three nights and converted her to a devotee. That's it. That is real compassion, not that "Take two rupees and go home." No. Turn her. That is real compassion, to turn everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the greatest welfare activity in the world. Otherwise there cannot be any peace or prosperity. Where is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he had a cold, and he's lying down.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Why cold?

Lokanātha: In Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are mentioning that prostitute is needed in the society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, for the rascals. Otherwise they will pollute the innocent girls. The innocent girls.... That is the policy of the Western civilization, that "Let the karmīs enjoy new, new girls and be energetic to produce machine." This is the European civilization, American civilization. Because the karmīs, unless they have sufficient sex intercourse, they cannot work, so this is the policy: "Let all the girls remain open." They.... "Let them use and produce atomic bomb. Show your brain." The.... Just like the marriage.... According to Vedic civilization, marriage is allowed to the karmīs. It is not that marriage allowed to the sannyāsī or brahmacārī. The karmīs require sex. Therefore.... Why marriage is allowed to the gṛhastha? Why not to the brahmacārī, vānaprastha or sannyāsī? Why it is not recommended? Because the karmīs require that enlivenment. Therefore they are allowed to marry. So in the European civilization it is only karmīs. There is no question of brahmacārī, vānaprastha or sannyāsa. There is no such idea. Therefore they want new, new girls. And that they have kept, this artificial law.

Païca-draviòa: Outlawing prostitution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And no prostitution. And no prostitution, what means? That means there is prostitutes in the society.

Païca-draviòa: Everybody's a prostitute.

Prabhupāda: Now, the Vedic civilization is "All right, you are not satisfied, one woman, don't pollute the innocent girls or in the home. Go to the prostitute." Still, in big, big cities, there is a quarter, prostitute quarter, still. They are professional prostitutes.

Païca-draviòa: What was the Vedic punishment if somebody broke these moral principles?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Païca-draviòa: What would be the punishment in a Vedic society if somebody...

Prabhupāda: Oh. Picture, Fifth Canto. You see the description of the hell.

Païca-draviòa: Hell. But I mean, within the society itself, there was punishment there also from the king?

Prabhupāda: Everyone who will commit sinful activities will be punished. That is nature's law. Exactly like that: If you infect some disease, you must suffer from that disease. The nature's law is so strict, and it is going on. It doesn't require any supervision. The supervisions are already made so perfect. You infect this disease: you suffer from it. That's all.

Païca-draviòa: In.... In the society, if somebody would be...

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, if you break the laws, you suffer. Anywhere.

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, science has develop methods where they can have sense gratification and.... Just like if they get some disease they can give them some medicine, and then the disease goes away very easily. So in this way, they're actually giving more facility for more sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: So do you like to accept it, that disease? Therefore it has been condemned, prāyaścitta. Perhaps you have read it in the beginning of Sixth Canto. Prāyaścitta... Parīkṣit Mahārāja condemned, "What is the use of this Vedic prāyaścitta if it is suffering, again and again? Then what is the use?" That he has condemned. But prāyaścitta vimarśanam. Therefore the rascal should be given knowledge that "You are attacked with some disease. Very good. You are injected with some medicine. You are cured. Then again you are attacked. So why you are going in this way? Stop it." And that is knowledge. That knowledge is also not perfect, because even a man in knowledge, he knows that "If I go to prostitute, I'll be attacked with syphilitic poison, and last time I had the same trouble. I had to spend so much money." But still he'll go, because he has no knowledge. So even one has no knowledge, if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes detestful: "Oh..." That is the, mean, gift of bhakti.

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

That the whole world is dark, misty. So you can invent so many means. Just like they have got, what is called, crackers? In the mist? Sometimes that is blown so that warn people that "Don't come here. There is danger."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Flares.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can invent so many means of curing the danger. But as soon as the sun is there, immediately all mist is over. Similarly, we have invented so many medicines and counteractions for so many things. But if one becomes a devotee, all these troubles immediately.... That is the only one medicine. He has no more any inclination. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "No more I want." And that is wanted. (break) ...asmi varaṁ na yāce. One should be fully satisfied: "No more I want this material disease. That's all. Enough of it." That mentality required: "I don't want anything material facility." Sannyāsa means that, that "I shall live with the minimum necessities of life and simply devote..." That is sannyāsa. "I shall become a sannyāsī and enjoy all material facilities"--that is not sannyāsa. (break) ...recommended that "If there is no need, don't take even cloth. Remain naked." That is sannyāsa. But because we have to preach, because we have to go the people, therefore some covering. Otherwise, this is also not necessary for a sannyāsī. Nothing. Lie down on the floor like the Śukadeva Gosvāmī said, and take water in your palm, no dress. Śukadeva was also not dressing, naked. That is the perfection of sannyāsa.

 

Morning Walk                                               March 21, 1976, Māyāpura                                                       426699

Prabhupāda: ...moon is hot, they say, because the shade of the earth is obstructing.

Païca-draviòa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it not?

Devotees: Yes.

Trivikrama: They say that the sun is hitting like that.

Prabhupāda: Eh? The sun is there, and the earth is there. How it becomes...?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The earth is bet.... The earth is between the sun and the moon. Therefore there's some...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, in between.

Haṁsadūta: No, no. They say that the sun's rays are striking it, only half. The other half is in shadow.

Prabhupāda: What is that shadow?

Devotee (1): Night. Like nighttime on the earth.

Haṁsadūta: Shadow. Like a ball. If I have a ball and shine a light on it, then...

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Shadow.

Haṁsadūta: ...this side will be in shadow.

Prabhupāda: Shadow.... "Shadow" means earthly shadow? No.

Haṁsadūta: No no, no. Its own shadow. If this is a ball, and the light is coming from here, see, this portion will be in darkness or shadow. And the other portion will reflect light.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's not the modern theory.

Devotees: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Explanation?

Devotee (1): Sounds all right.

Haṁsadūta: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: "They say." What you say?

Haṁsadūta: We don't know anything. After meeting you, we wonder if we know anything, because we thought the moon was going around the earth.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What shadow is that? The moon casts its own shadow.

Haṁsadūta: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: They, their explanation is...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half the moon is in darkness.

Trivikrama: Yeah, the back side.

Prabhupāda: The back side.

Trivikrama: The back side of the moon. That's what we're seeing now. The sun's here, hitting...

Prabhupāda: I can understand now. That means moon. Moon is.... A portion is bright.

Devotees: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half of it is always bright.

Devotee: Yes. The part that's facing the sun.

Pṛthu-putra: But this is less than half.

Prabhupāda: And when they go to the moon planet, they go to the dark side. Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Païca-draviòa: No, they say they go to the light side, too.

Haṁsadūta: No, they say the dark side is so cold that no one can.... Because there's no sunlight, it is so cold.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no experience of all the sides of the moon.

Haṁsadūta: No, they don't. They only have one side, experiencing.

Prabhupāda: So, so what is the cause of the brightness?

Païca-draviòa: The sun.

Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but this is not bright.

Trivikrama: They say it's reflected light.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the material that makes it so bright so that whole universe is illuminated?

Haṁsadūta: There's no comment on that point.

Pṛthu-putra: They don't know that.

Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but that is not bright. They have said.... The other scientists, they said, "This kind of dust can be available here." Just see. Now, how it is bright?

Païca-draviòa: Well, they say that from space the earth would be bright also, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: The nonsense may say anything. But our common sense that if the, there is some ingredient in this moon which makes it bright, so they have brought the dust, but other scientists say that this dust can be available here.

Païca-draviòa: So it may be cheating.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Païca-draviòa: Actually, they have not proved anything.

Prabhupāda: That is my contention.

Trivikrama: They say the moon is bright, just like if a cloud is in the sky, it appears very white and bright because the sun is hitting it. But the same cloud, if you bring it into the room, it's just mist.

Prabhupāda: But cloud is not always existing. But this brightness is always existing. Cloud is sometimes appearing, sometimes disappearing. The moon brightness is regular. How you can compare with cloud? When you compare, there must be consistency. Analogy. Analogy means similar position. Otherwise, analogy has no meaning.

They.... How we see the sun is fixed up? The sun is moving, we see, so quickly. And the moon is moving, but it does not move. It is fixed up. Mean regarding the time, you can see practically, the sun is moving. And they say it is fixed up. The fixed-up article is moving quickly, and the moving article is fixed up. Why?

Païca-draviòa: When a train is in the station, when the train pulls out of the station, when you're in the train, it looks like that the station is moving and you're standing still.

Prabhupāda: Train has got different movement. But that means it has got different movement? Your analogy is imperfect.

Païca-draviòa: No, but if we...

Prabhupāda: You cannot compare with train because train has got different movement. But they haven't got different movement.

Païca-draviòa: But if this was moving at the same speed as the earth, it would appear to be fixed up. If the moon and the earth were both moving at the same speed, it would appear to be fixed up.

Prabhupāda: No. We see practically. Now we are standing. We see the sun is moving. It comes. And the moon is moving, but it is fixed up. Why it is? The moving matter is stand still, and the fixed-up matter is moving.

Païca-draviòa: Actually, it's we who are moving. The sun is...

Prabhupāda: But my speed is the same.

Païca-draviòa: Pardon me?

Prabhupāda: My, this earthly moving, that speed is the same. Why you find different position? Just consider with brain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the moon is closer than the sun, according to the scientist's philosophy...

Prabhupāda: Philosophy.... But we see, I mean, a distant matter is moving. We can see. And nearer we cannot see. It is fixed up. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you take a bicycle wheel, a spoke...

Prabhupāda: A bicycle you cannot concern. Bicycle or train, they have got different speed. You cannot compare. That analogy will not...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Say you take one spoke, one...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we, cannot.... You cannot bring bicycles in discussion first of all. You can talk all this to the fools. Analogy cannot be accepted unless they are similar.

Païca-draviòa: The moon is locked up. The moon is in the same...

Prabhupāda: That means you are suggesting simply. You have no clear idea. Actually the sun is moving. That is my point. Such a huge, gigantic matter, and we see, so quickly.... From the sunrise, now, it is not even fifteen minutes. Just imagine how big speed is there is.

Jayapatākā: But it is not so fast at midday.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: It is not so fast at midday.

Prabhupāda: No. Eh? No...

Jayapatākā: At midday, it is not so...

Prabhupāda: Faster, fast..., it is fast also. But because on the head. The speed is the same. You cannot say...

 

Talk at Rādhā-Govinda Mandir                      March 24, 1976, Calcutta                                                         426886

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) This Rādhā-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi..., original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right?

Indian man: Citra Das.

Prabhupāda: Citra Das. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara(?) building. That is also the property of Rādhā-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavana. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Rādhā-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity; I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I.... My Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party and a small friends, they..., I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan.... His name is? Gabhur Bhavana? (Bengali) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously.... Then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu(?), he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And.... Kangalu. (Bengali) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Thakurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world, in San Francisco, in...

Hari-śauri: Philadelphia.

Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, London...

Hari-śauri: Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Australia...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paris.

Prabhupāda: Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Thakurbari.

Indian man: Year 1917. (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I began my.... I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood.

Indian man: Oh, childhood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date?

Indian man: Fifty-five.

Prabhupāda: Fifty-five. That means in 1920 you were born?

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Thakurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my, this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing--worship of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. So although I was not belonging to this family.... Or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got. Now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād. Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is.... About this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the, what is called?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Inspiration?

Prabhupāda: Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (break--to car ride)

Hari-śauri: Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: The Deities.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri: They are very nicely cared for.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity.

Abhirāma: Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes, visit?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that (indistinct) road.

Abhirāma: Your father would not let you go any farther than this?

Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and.... It was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school, here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How far would you carry Jagannātha?

Prabhupāda: From our house to this Thakurbari, Rādhā-Govinda's house, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount.

Abhirāma: At least fifty dollars in American.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So my father used to pay.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You hired a saìkīrtana party?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Only two rupees. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children are very fortunate also.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam. He will not touch the big halavā. As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice.

 

Morning Walk                                                  March 25, 1976, Delhi                                                           426934

Prabhupāda: ...means ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. The more we get material possession, our false egotism increases. "I have got this. I have got this. Who is more powerful than me?" Āòhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti sadṛśo mayā. These are described in the Sixteenth Chapter. What is the meaning of this ahaìkāra? Because vimūòhātmā, that "I have got this motorcar. I have got this property," but within a second it can be finished. There is another, superior law. That he forgets. He sees actually, but he forgets. That is called vimūòhātmā. He is seeing, everyone. Of course, our time and nature's time, little different. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Gandhis, so many Jawaharlal came and went. But they do not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. They are seeing actually; still they do not see. Blind. In India the Mohammedans came. They ruled over. Where is the Moghul? The Englishmen came. Where they are? Everything gone. Paśyann api na paśyati. This is called vimūòhātmā. That is going on. The material civilization means ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. By false egotism they are bewildered and rascals. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has translated this, that jaòā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava: "All this material advancement of civilization is the paraphernalia of māyā." Because you cannot enjoy it, but you are thinking, "I possess so much. I possess so much." You'll not be allowed to enjoy, but still.... Therefore all these material possessions are the paraphernalia of māyā. So what is the wrong there? Now, wrong is this, jaòā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, tomāra bhajane bādhā. They are hindrances for advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the aim of human life. That, you forget that. So tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā. The result is that he becomes more attached to this temporary world and remains the rascal. Because without being rascal, nobody comes in this material world to enjoy. As soon as anyone has come to this material world, he's a rascal. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha haïā bhoga vāïchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare.

Cyavana: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In some parts of the Bible it describes how things were being carried out, and they say that the activities were going on according to the will of God. Does that mean that there was a God conscious civilization then?

Prabhupāda: Activities? These activities are going on. The sun is rising by the will of God; the moon is rising, will of God. You are being punished by the will of God. He is the Supreme.

Cyavana: But they described that people were worshiping and that children were being born...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Cyavana: Children were being born according to God's will.

Prabhupāda: Yes...

Cyavana: It's described in certain parts of...

Prabhupāda: Children will be born.... If you are.... If the child is sinful, then it will go to the womb of a mother who will kill him. That's all. By the will. By the.... That he should be punished. One who has used contraceptive and abortion method, by the will of God he will enter another mother, and the mother will kill him.

Cyavana: But the Bible, it indicates...

Prabhupāda: Now, now, you see, try, understand. You are very good Bible quoter, but try to understand each and everything. Simply you go on quoting, but understand what is that quotation. It is by the will of God. You have committed sinful life by contraceptive method. Now you enter in the womb of another mother and be killed. That is Bible.

Cyavana: So what is described there was not actually God consciousness or...

Prabhupāda: No, it is God consciousness if you understand it, that "I am now being punished by the will of God. I have done sinful activities." That is God conscious.

Guru dāsa: God gives what everyone wants.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: If they desire that, they get that.

Prabhupāda: :You wanted this punishment; therefore you get it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are thinking that the punishment is something worse than this, that "This is very nice. We can live here and be happy, and the punishment is in hell."

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Here we live happily."

Prabhupāda: That.... No, no. That is the nature of the living being, that he is happy by nature because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. So ānanda is nature, but he is finding, trying to find out nature in sinful life. Therefore he is being punished. That he does not know.

Guru dāsa: So that's his ignorance.

Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. His nature is to become happy. He is happy, happy. Just like our natural position is we are healthy. Nature has made this body. But we create such situation that we become ill, sick. And at that time we see, "Oh, I am..." What is that? "I am infected. I have been contaminated." Go to the doctor, injection. But the natural life is no disease.

Guru dāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But you create a situation; therefore become diseased.

Guru dāsa: Otherwise it wouldn't be called "diseased," because it would be normal to be sick. But disease means...

Prabhupāda: Normal life means no sickness.

Guru dāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And as soon as there is sickness, that means punishment. So if you want to be punished, then violate the hygienic laws. You can see that there is hospital and medical treatment and medicine--for whom?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sick people.

Prabhupāda: No, for the human society. Not for the birds, beasts. But they follow nature's law. But this rascal violates nature's law and suffers.

Yadubara: What about for the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes they are very sick, have so many...

Prabhupāda: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee. Why do you think like that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, eiṭa eka kalira chelā, nāke tilaka, galaya mālā:(?) "Here is another follower of Kali. He has got tilaka and mālā." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saìga laiyā pārera wala (?): "He is worshiping, bhajana, taking another's wife." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saìga laiyā pārera wala, ei ṭa eka kalira chelā: "Here is a servant of Kali. Simply he has changed his dress with tilaka and mālā." Bhaktivinoda Öhākura says. If you take tilaka and mālā and do all nonsense things, then you are not a devotee. You are Kali-chelā. To become a devotee is not so easy thing.

Ātreya Åṣi: Devotee means perfect.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Devotee means sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He is above these material laws. That is devotee. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He is in the Brahman stage. That is devotee. If you take.... That means sahajiyā. "Because I have got a tilaka and mālā, I have become devotee." This kind of cheating will not do.

Ātreya Åṣi: And in this modern age, this cheating is very prominent...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Modern or old, anyone who is a conditioned soul, he has got cheating propensity, four defects. One of them is the cheating propensity.

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes. But the mental stage in this age is very strong, mental. They think mentally they have found a solution.

Prabhupāda: That they can do.

Ātreya Åṣi: But they...

Prabhupāda: Within mind you can think, "I have become emperor of the world." That you can do. Who can check you? But that is not the actual fact.

Ātreya Åṣi: That is the characteristic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mental concoction. Within mind you can think, "I have become the proprietor of the banks, all the banks." Madman that is. He's a madman.

Ātreya Åṣi: They have so many philosophies, but it's all mental.

Prabhupāda: All mental. We say, therefore, don't say "philosophy." We say "mental speculation."

Ātreya Åṣi: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy means tattva-darśinaḥ. That is described, tattva-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth, he is philosopher. And who is hovering in the mental concoction platform, he's a rascal. "I think." This is.... Their all European philosophy is...

Ātreya Åṣi: "I believe."

Prabhupāda: "I believe," "In my opinion." He's a rascal, and he is giving his opinion.

Cyavana: Prabhupāda, are the laws of karma written?

Prabhupāda: Laws of karma is you touch fire, your finger will be burned. This is laws of karma. You cannot avoid it.

Cyavana: They are so complicated, though. Are they actually written?

Prabhupāda: That is another.... This is the law of karma. If you do something which is forbidden, then you suffer. This is laws of karma. Or you enjoy. Both good and bad. That is laws of karma. Either you take the result good or the bad.

Ātreya Åṣi: To a devotee it is very clear, the laws of karma. He sees how that God, Kṛṣṇa, is just.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means tattva-darśī. He has seen the real truth. Devotee means who follows Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is giving the real truth. If you take, then you are devotee. If you don't take, you are nondevotee.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the role of mercy if one takes or doesn't take?

Prabhupāda: Mercy means.... Suppose you are a devotee. Unknowingly or by some bad habit you have done something wrong. That is excused. But if you intentionally do, that "I am devotee; Kṛṣṇa will excuse me," then you are rascal.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the greatest offense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating. Cheating Kṛṣṇa. Cheating Kṛṣṇa is no business. That is to be punished. You cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. But if by accident, knowingly or unknowingly you have done something which is not good, that is excused. Sva-pāda-mūlaṁ bhajataḥ priyasya. If you are actually, because you have given so much service to Kṛṣṇa, you have become very dear to Him, so unknowingly you have done, committed sin--excused. Bhajataḥ priyasya. This word is used. You must have to become very dear to Him. Then if you accidentally commit some sin, that is excused.

Guru dāsa: What does "unknowingly" mean, Śrīla...

Prabhupāda: Unknowingly means..., suppose you are a smoker. So now you have given up everything. But in the association of some smoker you incline, "All right, let me smoke." Then you regret, "Oh, I have done this." It can happen. So that is excused. But if you think, "Now I am a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. I can smoke like anything, and everything will be excused," then you are a rascal.

Ātreya Åṣi: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are knowing that we are so sinful and we're so rascals, but having the opportunity of association of pure devotee and Kṛṣṇa, that's also mercy...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: Because we can see that we are..., our hearts are not clean, and we are constantly thinking of māyā...

Prabhupāda: Education, education.

Ātreya Åṣi: This is mercy. This is greatest mercy.

Prabhupāda: Just like you are being educated. Not that cent percent mark you are getting, but because you are trying to be educated, so that is also good. That is also good.

Devotee(1): Therefore the association is most important.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very important, so that if I commit some mistake, I'll regret: "Oh, my other associate, he is not coming to act in that..." That chance he'll get.

Ātreya Åṣi: So we pay a little attention to Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa gives us a lot of attention.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: That is mercy.

Prabhupāda: If you give.... If you go forward, Kṛṣṇa, one step, He comes forward ten steps.

Ātreya Åṣi: He runs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is His mercy.

Ātreya Åṣi: That is mercy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: I just read on one of the pages of that Bhāgavatam where you said in a purport that Kṛṣṇa desires that we go back home a lot more strongly than we desire to go back home.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Therefore He comes. He is very anxious to take back His sons, back to home, back.... Just like father. If he sees, "My son is suffering there, leaving home," he tries to get him back.

Ātreya Åṣi: Unfortunately we don't even desire.

Prabhupāda: And therefore you are madness.

Devotee: But the materialists will say...

Guru dāsa: Therefore you have come.

Devotee: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if God is, if He is actually wanting us to go back, then why is He causing suffering?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: If He wants us to come to back home to Godhead...

Prabhupāda: But, you rascal, you are suffering. He says, "Come back." You don't go.

Ātreya Åṣi: Because He has given you freedom and this is...

Prabhupāda: He says, "My dear boy, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja" But you don't do. You must suffer. It is your creation, suffering. You must suffer.

Devotee: They say, "If He is all-loving, why is He...?"

Prabhupāda: Loving, but.... You are.... I love you. I say, "Do this." If you don't do it, then...?

Devotee: It's reciprocal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You must suffer.

Yadubara: So the suffering is His mercy also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffering means he'll be purified. Suffering is the process of purification.

Ātreya Åṣi: And part of His laws.... It's within His laws.

Prabhupāda: You have infected some disease. You suffer. Then the enviousness(?) of Kṛṣṇa will go away by suffering.

Guru dāsa: So the pure devotee is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: So this question of freedom of jīva and control of Kṛṣṇa, that there is freedom but at the same time there is no freedom, is a very fine line between the two that sometimes we do not understand.

Prabhupāda: But why don't you understand? Just like you belong to a free nation, the American. Does it mean you are free to do anything and everything?

Ātreya Åṣi: With your limited freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: There's a fine line between this freedom.

Prabhupāda: When you say, "I belong to this free nation," then yes, you are free. But that does not mean that you can do anything and everything.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Take that example of the habit, if someone is smoking out of habit. So again. So is he free in that smoking, or is it..., has he completely surrendered his freedom?

Prabhupāda: No, no.... These things are very common. Just like in your country the government has written on the cigarette box, "It is harmful to health." But if you still smoke at your risk, do it.

Ātreya Åṣi: So freedom.... You can smoke, but you cannot avoid suffering from the result.

Prabhupāda: Yes, from the result.

Ātreya Åṣi: You have to suffer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: This is the law.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law.

Ātreya Åṣi: And you cannot smoke outside the laws. You cannot smoke a cigarette...

Prabhupāda: This is.... Already warning is there that "You smoke; you suffer." And if you still do that, suffer. What can be done? Common thing.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The freedom is always there, minute independence.

Ātreya Åṣi: Minute.

Guru dāsa: Freedom with responsibility.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: Just like they say that you have the freedom to yell "There's a fire" in a theater, but you don't do it.

Prabhupāda: So many examples are there. Freedom is there, but you are not absolutely free to do whatever you like.

Guru dāsa: Because of the stringent laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Because you are small. Just like children. He has got freedom, playing. But when he is doing something wrong, father, "You don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." But if he does it, even he is children, even he's child, he'll suffer. He cannot say, "I am child. I did not know, father." Then that does not matter. You must suffer. You must suffer, even though you are child.

Ātreya Åṣi: And, Śrīla Prabhupāda....

Prabhupāda: Father takes care, "My dear child, don't do this. Don't touch fire." But still, he touches; he must suffer. The fire will not excuse because he is child. That is not possible. Nature's law will act.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of freedom and independence, is it possible for anyone theoretically to surrender to Kṛṣṇa at any time?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So let's say someone is in a very degraded condition of life, modes of ignorance, passion. Their mind is always disturbed. Is surrender to Kṛṣṇa.... Is it possible that it can be independent even of the mind?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, let's say someone's mind is...

Prabhupāda: You are independent of mind always. It is your mind. You are not mind.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then you are independent of mind always.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So even a person merged in the mode of ignorance can by some good fortune surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No good fortune. God, Kṛṣṇa, says, "You do it"; you do it. Here immediately you become fortunate. There is no question of waiting for becoming fortunate. You become fortunate immediately. Suppose if I say, "Take this bag, 100,000 dollars." You can take it. Immediately you become rich man. Why don't you take it?

Guru dāsa: How does kṛpā-siddhi work, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guru dāsa: Kṛpā-siddhi. How does that work?

Prabhupāda: Kṛpā-siddhi means that you are not willing take this bag. I say, "Take it, take it, take it." (laughter) "No." That is kṛpā-siddhi. Even you are unwilling, I give you in your pocket, push it. That is kṛpā-siddhi. (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait for that.

Yadubara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Ātreya Åṣi: Individual's freedom, when he is ignorant, it is not really freedom because it's completely under the control...

Prabhupāda: And when he gets the money, and he spends it, and he sees, "My poverty is gone," then he becomes thankful. "Oh, it is so merciful that he has given me this thing."

Ātreya Åṣi: The individual freedom, when he is in the mode of ignorance, is completely under the laws of material nature. When the individual makes spiritual advancement...

Prabhupāda: Individual freedom means.... We should always know our freedom is limited.

Ātreya Åṣi: Limited. Yes. But...

Prabhupāda: So we are not.... Because the Absolute, so how you can..., your freedom can be absolute?

Ātreya Åṣi: So the karmī thinks.... His freedom is limited to thinking "Am I going to eat this meat rare or well done?" That is the sort of freedom he is getting.

Prabhupāda: No, you have to...

Ātreya Åṣi: Completely ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Just like a thief. He also has got the conscience, "Why shall I steal?"

Ātreya Åṣi: "This or this."

Prabhupāda: "This or this." But he knows that "If I do it, I shall be punished."

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes. But when an individual spirit...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that actual freedom, though? Is that freedom?

Prabhupāda: No, I have already said that you cannot have absolute freedom.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but is the spirit soul implicated in that decision in any way, or is it just the modes of nature working, "Well, I'll take this instead of that."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the spirit soul implicated in that decision, or is it...

Prabhupāda: What is that decision?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say, "I'll go to the cinema, or I'll go to the restaurant." So is the spirit soul implicated in that decision in any way, or is it simply the three modes of material nature working?

Ātreya Åṣi: The three modes.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what is your...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a situation. Either I'll go to the cinema or I'll go to the restaurant. So is the spirit soul...

Prabhupāda: Both of them are sinful.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So how is the spirit soul involved in it? Is the spirit soul choosing, or is the decision already made by his karma?

Prabhupāda: Karma, karma... You can make your kar... You are doing that. Karma you are creating every moment by desire. Karma is.... What is that? Thinking, feeling, willing. You think of something; then you do it. That means you create your karma. You are thinking that "I shall go to the cinema"; then you go. That is karma.

Ātreya Åṣi: The question is choice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is...

Ātreya Åṣi: Choice.

Prabhupāda: That is desire. Therefore bhakti means you shall not desire anything except to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then you are safe. Because you are desiring so many things for your sense gratification, you are becoming implicated.

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes. So the point is that if a...

Prabhupāda: Just like a good child. He has decided, "I shall do only what my father says." Then he is safe. And as soon as he misuses his indep..., little independence, he is complicated. So decide like that, that "I shall not do anything which is not ordered by Kṛṣṇa." Then it is all right. Otherwise you'll suffer. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Make it zero. Then you are safe. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Simply do, act, what Kṛṣṇa says; then you are safe. Why don't you do that? That is also independence. You are misusing independence. You are misusing. Then you must suffer. The government says, "Do according to the law." Then you are safe. Government will give all protection. And if you violate law, you must suffer.

Devotee: So take it that there is a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is not very learned in śāstra, but he only simply does what his guru tells him.

Prabhupāda: What is learned? What is learned? A child, does he require learning. When the father says, "You do it," does it require any university education?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: "He is my father." That's all.

Guru dāsa: Nara-priya(?) do not know śāstras. They know unalloyed devotion.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the nature. A child generally abides by the order of the parent. They are playing. The parent says, "Don't do it! Sit down!" Immediately sit down. That is the nature. So why don't you break your nature, that "My duty is to carry out the order of the supreme father?" Then you are safe.

Prabhupāda: That is desire. Therefore bhakti means you shall not desire anything except to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then you are safe. Because you are desiring so many things for your sense gratification, you are becoming implicated.

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes. So the point is that if a...

Prabhupāda: Just like a good child. He has decided, "I shall do only what my father says." Then he is safe. And as soon as he misuses his indep..., little independence, he is complicated. So decide like that, that "I shall not do anything which is not ordered by Kṛṣṇa." Then it is all right. Otherwise you'll suffer. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Make it zero. Then you are safe. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Simply do, act, what Kṛṣṇa says; then you are safe. Why don't you do that? That is also independence. You are misusing independence. You are misusing. Then you must suffer. The government says, "Do according to the law." Then you are safe. Government will give all protection. And if you violate law, you must suffer.

Devotee: So take it that there is a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is not very learned in śāstra, but he only simply does what his guru tells him.

Prabhupāda: What is learned? What is learned? A child, does he require learning. When the father says, "You do it," does it require any university education?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: "He is my father." That's all.

Guru dāsa: Nara-priya(?) do not know śāstras. They know unalloyed devotion.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the nature. A child generally abides by the order of the parent. They are playing. The parent says, "Don't do it! Sit down!" Immediately sit down. That is the nature. So why don't you break your nature, that "My duty is to carry out the order of the supreme father?" Then you are safe.

Ātreya Åṣi: And when you carry out that order--you fully surrender--then you enjoy full freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is full freedom.

Ātreya Åṣi: That is the freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is freedom.

Ātreya Åṣi: That is absolute freedom.

Prabhupāda: Full freedom means to be under the order of the Supreme. That is full freedom. That is full freedom.

Ātreya Åṣi: The cinema or restaurant is not freedom. It's completely conditioning under the laws of material nature. But fully surrendered soul is fully free.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you simply, even if you want to go to a cinema...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's still responsible for going.

Prabhupāda: If you ask, "Father, I wish to see cinema," if father says, "All right, we'll go," that is not sinful. But you go in your own whims--that is sinful. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā.

Cyavana: Sometimes it's difficult as devotees for us to know whether we're doing the right thing or whether we're just speculating.

Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to consult your guru.

Cyavana: Yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: It's because we are not surrendered.

Cyavana: But even in small things, just day-to-day activities...

Prabhupāda: There is no small thing. Everything big thing for a devotee.

Sudāmā: I've discovered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the way to do that, of course, is to read your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: By reading your books, then all of the...

Prabhupāda: Therefore the books are there.

Sudāmā: Even practical, everything...

Ātreya Åṣi: But without attitude of devotion, nothing will work.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Ātreya Åṣi: Attitude of devotion must be there.

Prabhupāda: The attitude, devotion, is there. Otherwise why one should come to our camp? But it must be properly utilized. It should not be misused. If you go to school and if you don't read books, you'll fail in the examination.

Guru dāsa: But the attitude of devotion should be there every moment, so everything...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: ...is very meaningful. Everything is a big thing. When we go out we should realize we're doing it for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is said, man-manā. Think of Kṛṣṇa; He'll guide you. Very easy thing. Man-manā. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, then there is no question of falling down. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. These four things, if strictly done, he is safe. He is safe. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer Him obeisances and.... Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, and worship Him. This is Deity worship. That will engage in always in thinking, in offering obeisances. And if we strictly follow only these, these four principles, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te: "You are coming back to Me without any doubt." But instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, we are thinking something else, planning something, misusing independence.

 

Conversation with News Reporter                    Delhi, March 15, 1976                                                          427484

Prabhupāda: So such fools there are that Bhagavad-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati--"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on. "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Musselmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ: "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ, I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on.

Reporter (6): Does it ever happen, Swamiji, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you in spiritual matters?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Mohammedans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā? What is the reason? Tell me, you.

Reporter (2): Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Economic instability.

Prabhupāda: Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad-gītā? Why don't you accept?

Reporter (2): If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is.... It is.... It is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Well, why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad-gītā? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America..." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains.

 

Room Conversation                                        Mayapur, April 4, 1976                                                           427746

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program.

Prabhupāda: They cannot chant even?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting they do.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly.

 

Morning Walk                                                 Mayapur, April 8, 1976                                                           427950

Madhudviṣa: ...gave one flower to the prime minister of Australia.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Madhudviṣa: He gave her a donation.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Akṣayānanda: How much did he give?

Madhudviṣa: I don't know how much he gave, but he gave a donation.

Akṣayānanda: Did he get a book?

Madhudviṣa: Yes, she gave him our magazine.

Devotee (1): (indistinct)

Madhudviṣa: There was no security.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Madhudviṣa: There was no security around him. He just was standing there on the sidewalk out in front of one hotel after this luncheon.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Madhudviṣa: And she just walked up to him and "Oh, this is a flower for you," pinned it on his lapel.

Prabhupāda: Mm. So he has no personal guard?

Madhudviṣa: He had some guard, but it was not very strict security, there was no... It's not like in America, where the president is very..., his life is very jeopardized all the time. (pause)

Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now you have to make a thorough change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man?

Madhudviṣa: I was reading in the paper the other day, how the Catholic church has drastically declined in the last ten years.

Prabhupāda: They must decline.

Madhudviṣa: They are losing one billion dollars a year in donations because they cannot...

Prabhupāda: They have to starve, not a single paisa donation. By law should be prohibited. No donation should be (indistinct).

Païcadraviòa: They used to be very strong. Everybody had to give ten percent of their wages.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Madhudviṣa: We can see just..., in our society that we have bought so many Catholic properties...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: ...already. For our temples. In Toronto, I think, we bought a Catholic church, and Montreal and Australia also, that was Catholic property. They are selling all their property off because they cannot afford to maintain.

Païcadraviòa: Still in South America the people are Catholic and pious...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) we wanted to purchase a convent...

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How dilapidated.

Madhudviṣa: How envious they were. We wanted to purchase the convent, and they said they would sell us only if they could tear down the church. They wouldn't sell it to us unless they could tear down the church.

Passers-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Madhudviṣa: It would have been a big defeat if they had sold us that church and we moved in.

Devotee (1): (indistinct) ...United States, they have taken eight million Catholics in Philadelphia. Just before the time of our Rathayātrā I think...

Païcadraviòa: When they took Rādhā-Dāmodara down to Mexico, all the Catholics thought it was Virgin Mary and Jesus, and they all came to offer their obeisances. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Which way I shall go? This way?

Devotee (2): This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Lokanātha: Last time there was a big crowd to hear you, Prabhupāda--the Christians.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: And you mentioned they were clapping for a long, long time after hearing you speak.

Prabhupāda: Not long, long time, but... Madhudviṣa, you remember that Catholic...

Madhudviṣa: Yes, they asked you about St. Francis, about him chanting to the dogs and the trees and the birds. And you said, "That is actually God-realization. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu."

Prabhupāda: And when they asked about Christ, and "He's our guru."

Madhudviṣa: You started your main lecture off there, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." And then you went on to explain about the holy name.

Prabhupāda: Hm, (indistinct) are here. Why is it? Some wood. (break) ...grow foodgrains, simple living.

Devotee (1): The house is there, under the trees.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) You have got this card.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they would call this primitive.

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization, that is there. The difficulty is they have no education about human civilization. Bahir-artha-māninā. They are simply captivated by the external energy, bodily conception of life. They do not know what is the aim of life. This is Western civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. This is not Western, this is the demonic civilization. They do not know what is the aim of life. Our..., the material atmosphere, they're not happy, they're failing always, missing the real point.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people that live in the cities think that the farmers work so hard.

Prabhupāda: And these rascals rise early in the morning and start their car to go to the office, five hours coming and going, and eight hours working there...

 Lokanātha: Again in the evening they have to drive back. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...I saw that these big men, they were taking so many pep pills during the day to do their work, and in the evening they had to take tranquilizers to go to sleep.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen so, so many advertisements. One has to take at least five to six types of.

Païcadraviòa: No peace of mind.

Madhudviṣa: In this way the Kali-yuga will progress, and they'll eat less and less food and take more pills, and they will think it is advancement.

Prabhupāda: Mm. Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Housewives think like that already. They take some pills, and they become very slim and they don't have to eat so much. They just smoke cigarettes and drink coffee and take pills. And they're saving money, they think. They don't have to buy so much food, and they're able to remain slim and trim. So in Kali-yuga, as the food supply runs out, so people won't notice.

Lokanātha: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says they will be starving.

Prabhupāda: Mm?

Lokanātha: As Kali-yuga advances, they're mentioning one time, there will be durbhikṣā, means not even bhikṣā will be given to sādhus.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not even bhikṣā will be available. I don't think bhikṣā is available in Western countries, eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Païcadraviòa: Bhikṣā? Meaning begging for food? No, they will arrest you. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Prabhupāda: Arrest.

Païcadraviòa: Yes, begging is against the law. (break)

Madhudviṣa: ...alms is very elevated. In Western countries, it is a crime. It's written, "Begging alms." That's one crime that they charge the devotees on sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Electricity is coming?

Lokanātha: Yes, these poles are meant for that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I doubt, though, if these people can afford.

Prabhupāda: The government can. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...go to beg rice or something, like we were doing for a food program, all the people slam the door in your face. (break)

Païcadraviòa: ...went to America, what was your idea of what would be your program when you got there?

Prabhupāda: This idea: I shall speak to don't eat meat, and they'll immediately kick me out. (laughter) That was my program. And I was going to say that "Don't eat meat. No illicit sex," and immediately they will kick me out. "All right." I never thought that you would accept it. That is the idea of my poetry. That is sung, no? You have got that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And I was asking Kṛṣṇa, "I do not know why You have brought me here. As soon as I will say these things, they will kick me out. What is Your program, I do not know." (chuckles)

Akṣayānanda: Everybody knows in their heart that actually these things are wrong.

Lokanātha: You are so expert. For one year you did not mention those rules and regulations, I heard.

Prabhupada: No, I simply said , "Come and join and chant."

Lokanātha: And when they developed higher taste, then you said, "Now no more meat-eating." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...simply man looks after the animals, that he's strong and happy, they'll get food grains, the cooperation, and both of them happy. But they're not looking to that. They are trying to sell the grains and get more money, and purchase wine and enjoy. And when the animal will be unable to work, sell him to the slaughterhouse and get money. And for these sinful activities, they are suffering.

Hari-śauri: Their idea is just to exploit.

Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. Everyone is trying to get more, and nature's order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That's all. If you take more, then you are thief, you'll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you'll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he'll lament that "I could not satisfy my desires. Let me take..." "All right, take another body. Satisfy." This is nature's punishment. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye. Simple things. We desire, and nature will give you another body. māyā-yantrārūòhāni. He'll give you, "Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body." And this... This is creation of māyā. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... Kṛṣṇa is there, orders māyā, "He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body." "Come on, here is a hog's body, eat nicely, stool. Come on." He did not like to eat prasādam. He wanted something rubbish. "All right, come here. Take this stool." These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven't got to manufacture diseases. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, "Take this disease." Therefore it is warned, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam, "Don't desire anything except Kṛṣṇa's service." Then you are immune. Otherwise you have to take birth.

                                                                                                                                                                        428022

Prabhupāda: Anya, anya means anyathā. You are servant, you should always desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural. And if you don't want to serve, that is anyathā. Anyābhilāṣa. That is anyābhilāṣa. Anya means other, abhilāṣa means desire. So everyone has got desire, but that desire should be natural, according to position. But if you desire something else, nonsense, then you suffer. That... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. You are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, so you desire only how to serve Him. Why you are desiring otherwise? They will suffer. We are desiring, "I shall become God," "I shall become one with God," "I shall become this, I shall become..." So many hundreds and thousands. So that you have to stop. Because you are servant, you should desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural... Eh? Just like in your country the women, they are thinking of equal rights. Eh? And how you can equal rights? You have to become pregnant. So you become pregnant and take care of the child; that is your duty. In India still, you'll find they are happy. And now they are, "No, we shall be equal with the men." And how you'll stop your pregnancy? And that they do not think. So they're thinking that "We shall not be pregnant, and if we become pregnant we shall kill, and we shall have equal rights with the men." This is going on.

Madhudviṣa: They say they may become pregnant and have children, but the men should take care of the children, equally.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should take? You are meant for taking... The child does not go to the father for being taken care. It goes to the mother. Even animals. There are so many chicken, hens, they go after the mother.

Hari-śauri: They get milk from the mother, not from the father.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How to stop it?

Lokanātha: How could father feed even the child?

Prabhupāda: Just see, in all there are so many husbandless girls, and the children have not gone with the husbands, to the man. They are after the mother. How you'll have equal rights? They cannot. At this your heart will cry, "Oh, I have left my children, I am unhappy." That is... Just like our Hari-śauri's grandmother's advice to his mother to kill him. He said. And she refused. This is natural inclination. How... Artificially they are thinking like that, violating nature's law. Therefore they must suffer. As soon as you break ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. These rascals, on account of being misled by misconception of life, ahaìkāra, false ahaìkāra, kartāham, I can do everything. Any little pinch of nature's law, if you break, you'll suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You cannot escape. But still they're thinking, "We're independent." That is ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā, by false prestige, by false identification. He is (indistinct) and he's thinking so many nonsense. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. Everything will be explained in Bhagavad-gītā. So try to explain. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, yāre dekha, tāre kaha, 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa.' Bas, finished, "You become a guru." The trouble(?) is there. You haven't got to manufacture your ideas. Just like I'm quoting from Kṛṣṇa's preaching.

Lokanātha: They take objection when we preach. They say, "Have you seen God or Kṛṣṇa?" We haven't seen God, how could we speak about God? Sometimes they take objection.

Prabhupāda: Very good. You have not seen your grandfather, why do you take his will? To inherit the money. You have not seen your grandfather. You rascal, you are very much anxious to take his money, according to his will. What is the answer? You have not seen your grandfather, so why you take his will? Eh? What is his answer? Rascal while taking money: "I will take my grandfather's will." Just see. You have to learn how to capture the rascals. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        428058

Lokanātha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the position of vrajavāsīs, those who are living in Vṛndāvana now? What happens to them next life?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply by living, if they do not commit any sinful, they'll go back to home. Simply by living. Without committing any sinful activities. Always remember Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa's land, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. That will deliver them.

Madhudviṣa: They don't need a spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is always needed. Chāòiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā. Without abiding by the orders of spiritual master and serving him, nobody can be. Otherwise rascal. He has accepted one rascal spiritual master, and he cannot understand what is God, nine years, because he did not accept spiritual master.

Hari-śauri: So all these local vrajavāsīs, they all accept...

Prabhupāda: No, vrajavāsīs, they are... Generally, naturally, they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise how is this illiterate farmer, he is offering? This is natural.

Païcadraviòa: But he has no spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Païcadraviòa: He has a spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: No, no, he has a spiritual master, yes. And even without spiritual master they have already elevated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Païcadraviòa: So they will go back home?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, because spiritual master is within, caitya-guru.

Lokanātha: You said one time Kṛṣṇa is there.

Prabhupāda: Mm. Kṛṣṇa-guru-kṛpā. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              April 9, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                           428078

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is one very nice cause. The cause is, the Western people, they have no attachment for wife. Is it not a fact?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They do not care for the wife.

Pṛthu-putra: They do not care for family attachment in general.

Akṣayānanda: That vairāgya is due to frustration.

Prabhupāda: Whatever the cause...

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The vairāgya is there. That is...

Akṣayānanda: Then you came and gave the missing link. You gave the Kṛṣṇa consciousness itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vairāgya means that there must be another engagement. Then life is successful, with another spiritual engagement.

Akṣayānanda: That you have supplied.

Prabhupāda: That I have studied.

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: You must have known that before you went to the West.

Prabhupāda: No, it was Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Kṛṣṇa wanted to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries, so He gave me the chance to take the credit, that's all. It is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. But He liked that one of His devotee may take the credit. That's all. Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I have already killed them. They are not returning, either you fight or not fight, but you can take the credit." So it was arrangement of Kṛṣṇa that Western countries should now have this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And He wanted to give the credit to His poor servant. That's all. Kṛṣṇa likes that. He does everything, but He gives credit to His (chuckling) poor servant. That is my..., vairāgya. The whole process is how to achieve vairāgya. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam...

Pṛthu-putra: Jïānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam.

Prabhupāda: ...jïānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam. That was automatic. And the bhakti-yoga means vairāgya-yoga. Vairāgya-yogaṁ nija-bhak.... Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam. So anyway, you have got the right thing. Now make it perfect. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛòha-vratāḥ. With great vow and endeavor, kīrtana should go on. Then it is perfect. There is no difficulty. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. The kīrtana is bhajana. So if you are engaged, satatam, in kīrtana, then you are safe. Māyā's father will not be able to touch. In India as soon as you say, "You give up your family life," immediately he becomes morose. The family attachment, especially the wife's attachment, is very, very strong. And śāstra says if one can give up this attachment of wife, then he can conquer Kṛṣṇa. It is said. He can conquer Kṛṣṇa. Simply.... Eh?

                                                                                                                                                                        428123

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly chastised him that "You are talking like a fool." Eh? Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajïā-vādān: "Talking like a very learned man, but you are a fool. No learned man speaks like that." Why they have kept this nice road within this forest? What is the idea?

Hari-śauri: There's some village on the other side?

Akṣayānanda: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: No, for village the government is not going to keep such nice road. This government department, forest department.... The government policy is to develop these places for industry in future. This industry is the cause of falldown of the human society--industry. So the reaction is.... The industry, two things required--four things required: land, labor, capital, and organization. So now the industry is going on, and the capitalists and labor, there is fight. The laborers, they are finding out that "We are working. Why the capitalists will take the profit?" This is communism. Is it not?

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So the Communists, they are thinking, "By changing the hand, things will improve." But they do not know that very industry is the cause of falldown. They're simply trying to change the hand. The principle should go on, industry, only the proposal is that the capitalists should give up and the workers should take it.

Devotee (2): Which way is India headed towards? The capitalists or the Communists?

Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life--one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone is.... Brāhmaṇa is guiding, kṣatriya is ruling, and vaiśya is producing food, and śūdra, they have no brain; they are helping. In this way the society is very peaceful, and everyone is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is India's civilization. Now, due to this association of the rākṣasas... Even up to Mohammedan time this civilization was being continued. Mohammedan did not touch the Indian culture. Sometimes by, what is called, fanaticism, there was fight. Not like this. The Arjuna.... Aurangzeb began this. Otherwise, from, what is called, the first emperor? Akbar. Akbar, Jahanghri, then Shajahan, there was no trouble. They did not touch. Even there was some marriage connection. They want to remain as kṣatriya king, that's all. The other things were not interfered. So instead of a Hindu kṣatriya, the Musselman kṣatriya. People were satisfied: "A kṣatriya... We have to work. Somebody must be king." So in this way the Indian people accepted the Britishers. "All right, you remain king. Don't interfere." But later on, to exploit the whole country, they began to plan.

Akṣayānanda: Industry.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The industry, railway, and this way, that way, European way of life. And the result was they were kicked out. And India is now trying to perfect...

Akṣayānanda: The same thing.

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Tragedy.

Prabhupāda: Tragedy, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last year, when Governor Reddy was here, you were talking with him how "Let there simply be the government's position to check and see that everyone is following their particular religion."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is government's position.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how would, for example, the government.... In a perfect society, how would the government check to see that the brāhmaṇas are actually practicing, and how would...?

Prabhupāda: There is.... The brāhmaṇa... This is brāhmaṇa. This formula is there. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjava. So you have to see whether he is possessing this quality. Or train them. Have brahminical school, what I am willing to do. That is required absolutely. There must be a class of men, perfect brāhmaṇa. Otherwise society will be ruined. In the Western countries there is no brāhmaṇa. There may be some kṣatriyas and vaiśyas only, and śūdras. Brāhmaṇa there is none. So the same thing is here also now. Therefore the whole society is going down. There is no brāhmaṇa. What is this? This is brahminical culture. We are asking them not to be sinful, become devotee. This is brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, for the benefit of brahminical culture and cow protection. That is brahminical culture.

Jayādvaita: So to be recognized as brāhmaṇas...

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayādvaita: To be recognized, our men will have to be, as you were saying yesterday, perfect gentlemen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. Brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. A rogue, thief, cannot become brāhmaṇa. (laughs) Brāhmaṇa is perfect gentleman. Who feels for others, that is gentleman. Who does not feel for others, for his sense gratification, he is a rogue. A brāhmaṇa, a gentleman, must feel that "Why there should be animal killing?" That is gentleman. If you are killed, you cry and you are.... Hundreds and thousands of animals you are killing on the plea that they have no soul? Lowest class, narādhama. They have been described as narādhama. So narādhama civilization, how he can be happy? There must be frustration.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are the Vaiṣṇavas in general lamenting for the physical upkeep of Vṛndāvana, or are they indifferent?

Prabhupāda: No, it is the business of the government. Vaiṣṇava can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra anywhere. He doesn't require any nice park. Ahaituky apratihatā. For becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, for a serious person, there is no obstacle. Any condition he can do it. (break) ...why there is sannyāsī? In the Vedic civilization, ultimately sannyāsa. Why? That one must give up the intimate relationship with wife. This is the ultimate position. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saìgī-saìgam.

Prabhupāda: That is recommended everywhere. Illicit or legal.... Mahāprabhu has said, asat eka strī-saìgī: "Anyone who is attached to woman, he is asat." Bas. This is the whole process, how to become detached from the attraction of woman, dhīra. (break) Give up the connection with woman is recommended. So in our society it will be a good test. We are mixed up with men and women. If you in spite of this allurement, if you do not become attracted by woman, then you should know you are paramahaṁsa. Yes. You are worshipable. And this Bhāgavata-dharma is meant for the paramahaṁsas. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. It is especially. Dharmaḥ projjhita. The other different types of regulated system, to become very religious man or to become very expert money-hunter or accumulation of money, dharma, artha, and enjoying sense enjoyment--the whole world is appreciating these men, who is a religious man, who is very much able to satisfy his senses, dozens of cars and three dozen women, naked dance. They are taking this. Dharma artha kāma. And somebody is trying mokṣa, being baffled or dissatisfied: "These things will not.... I shall become one with." So dharma artha kāma mokṣa. So Bhāgavata says, "These are all kicked out." Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. For the paramahaṁsas. So anyone who is freed from all these allurement, he is paramahaṁsa. And this paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā, it is called, Bhāgavata.... Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām.

Pṛthu-putra: We also should be free from the extension of this, which is profit, adoration, and distinction.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Pṛthu-putra: We also should be free from profit, adoration and distinction, which are just extensions of these desires.

Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not require any, what is adoration or distinction.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a line of preaching in our society that subtle manifestation of sex attraction is adoration, profit, and distinction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is.... Mahāprabhu says, tṛṇād api sunīcena.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another path going this way if you'd like to walk some more, Srila Prabhupada.

 

Devotee (1): On one tape in America you said that the Westerners have created many, many parks, but because they are so busy trying to work hard for money they cannot take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Therefore we will come early in the morning and take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our ājagara-vṛtti. Ājagara-vṛtti means we haven't got to work for anything. Everything should be done by others, and we shall take possession of it. (laughter) Just like the Americans. They have earned so much money, and I have gone there and taking possession. I am not more clever than the Americans? (laughs) "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give money. I'll take to India." What do you think?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once gave the example of a mouse. The mouse digs a hole, and then the snake comes along and takes the house away from the mouse.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And eats him. The mouse makes very comfortable home by digging, and the snake comes, he enters without any labor, and the mouse is there and he eats it.

Jayādvaita: Free food and free home.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ājagara-vṛtti. What is that? Python. Ājagara-vṛtti and madhukāra-vṛtti. For your necessities of life either you take ājagara-vṛtti or madhukāra-vṛtti. Madhukāra means the fly, honeybee, bees. They take little from this flower, little from this flower, and they stock it, and somebody comes and takes it away. Don't stock. Therefore we have to follow this, that whatever money is coming, spend it for publication or for constructing temple. No account in the bank. Finish.

Jayādvaita: (break) ...is that no one can be contaminated by it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that blessing for them.

Jayādvaita: As soon as I have five dollars, I'm thinking that "Now I have five dollars. I can..."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayādvaita: I'm thinking, "Now I have five dollars. I can purchase something. What shall I buy?"

Prabhupāda: Why? If you don't require anything, why should you purchase? Don't create artificial demand. If you require to purchase something, then purchase. That is material civilization. "I don't require it; still I want it." Atyāhāra.

atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca

prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ

jana-saìgaś ca laulyaṁ ca

ṣaòbhir bhaktir vinaśyati

Finish. We should not possess anything which is not absolutely necessary. We are keeping these cars for preaching facility, not for sense gratification. We are keeping this dictaphone for preaching facility. Otherwise why it should be required?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is the whole mentality, then.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: :The whole mentality is changed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Kurukṣetra fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted; therefore he fought. Personally he did not want. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                               April 10, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                        428267

Nalinī-kānta: The Vedic civilization is centered around villages, not cities?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Nalinī-kānta: If we want to make the world Kṛṣṇa conscious...

Prabhupāda: Vedic civilization is in the forest. Go to the forest.

Hari-śauri: Renounce.

Prabhupāda: Neither in the city nor in the village. Go to the forest.

Lokanātha: But there were cities like Dvārakā.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but the ideal is vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. Go to the forest and depend on Kṛṣṇa and live there. And that is perfection. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. Go to the forest and remain, depending on Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Lokanātha: There are no forests left.

Hari-śauri: The whole material world's a forest.

Prabhupāda: There are so many forests in America, full of forests still. Africa, so many forests, big, big forests.

Akṣayānanda: (break) ...Kali-yuga we cannot do that due to our conditioning.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari śauri: :Fifth Canto describes the whole material world is a forest.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Of enjoyment.

Lokanātha: Forest of enjoyment. (break)

Prabhupāda: They go in the village for begging little food, that's all. Just like you can live in this forest. And what you will eat? Two cāpāṭi. So you can go and beg. That's all. Whole day's business finished. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Morning Walk                                               April 15, 1976, Bombay                                                            428759

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Matan(?) Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity... This is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. You cannot starve and live.

Dr. Patel: But sir...

Prabhupāda: And practically... Eh?

Dr. Patel: We are killing the body and not... The soul is inkillable.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. (Dr. Patel laughs) Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahiṁsā? Mean on the basic principle, the ahiṁsā paramo dharma, where is ahiṁsā? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahiṁsā? That is my point.

Dr. Patel: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful...

Prabhupāda: No, no. No interpretation. They say that "no killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands, that "We are for not, no killing"?

Dr. Patel: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.

Prabhupāda: So then our Vaiṣṇava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: (laughter) And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadāni catuṣ-padām. This vegetable is meant for the catuṣ-padām, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal." That is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahiṁsā at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, that is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. So automatically...

Dr. Patel: He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a (Hindi)."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam.

Prabhupāda: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. So this vegetarianism is no good position.

Dr. Patel: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals. They are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.

Prabhupāda: And they live in the forest.

Dr. Patel: They are sannyāsīs. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.

Yaśomatī-nandana: Cows are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatī-nandana: Cows, they are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: That said, tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saìgaḥ samācara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.

Prabhupāda: Then, then you are... Then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then he is vegetarian automatically.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Kṛṣṇa, but is it necessarily so?

Prabhupāda: No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.

For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort… And if you spend for your benefit, that is material.

 

They'll never accept. But if they simply accept chanting, it will work.

 

...Chinese man, Indians, they will come in large number. But they will not allow. That is the difficulty.

 

…The Kṛṣṇa's energy is so powerful that anyone who is a cheater, he will be cheated, that's all, automatically.

 

…And our prayer is go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, "to do good to the brāhmaṇas and the cows." Actually it is revolutionary to the modern age. But how it is possible we say otherwise?

 

…Three times' bathing, three times' changing cloth. It doesn't matter, loin cloth, but cloth must be changed.

 

…The down side of the pan remains black. But if you take some dirt and rub it nicely, it become glisten…The kitchen should be very neat and clean, washed twice daily, opened nicely and smeared with water and gobar. And if you see the kitchen, immediately you'll feel comfortable. It is very cleanly prepared, then offered to the Deity. Then you take. Automatically your mind becomes cleansed.

 

…You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the paramparā system().... not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come.

…You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved.

Guest: If there was exchange for that money, I think you'd be right.

Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required.

 

Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required.

 

So grow fruits, flowers, grains.

 

At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything.

 

…Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the bare necessities of life.

 

…But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful.

 

Not only one, you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to.... At the same time, man. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor.... putputputputputputputputput! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a roaring motor). They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that "This is civilization.”

 

That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that "Some way or other, I become guru. Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru." This is going on. Not bona fide guru. Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā: "Become guru." Why ambition? Actually become guru.

 

…If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep--better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple....

 

"First of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach.

 

"Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. Perfect means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājïāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes.

 

So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life. That much is great, advance.

 

If we become weak by factioning, then that is not good.

 

So if we keep our movement pure, then you are as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you deviate from it, immediately, ordinary. This is the secret. Now it is up to us, how to keep it pure. Then no enemy can kill us.

 

But you know how to make general mass of people happy…Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point.

 

Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that? Ask them. We know that… "In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."

 

In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins. There is field, and the arrow, and the bow. They have been figuratively. So this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, we... Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up this body and go back to home…By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon and yasya prasādad bhagavata..., and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya, make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I did. Here is a verse, acyuta bala, acyuta bala...We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servants of Arjuna. Simply you will have to act accordingly, then you will finish up enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇòavas. They have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ.

 

Chanting produce plain living, high thinking.

 

Take the whole world. You have got the United Nation; why you are busy about the state?

 

God is the father, and father's property is this whole world. We are all sons, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, and father's property lets us enjoy equally. That's all. All questions are solved.

 

...say, "Your food is ready. Just little work." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Just produce food grain. Everyone will be happy. But why they are producing motorcars only?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they can go to the market and get the food. So they can drive to the market.

Prabhupāda: Why market? You can produce your food at home.

 

There are so many people starving, they have no land to produce food. Therefore the Supreme Father has to be accepted.

 

Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?

Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.

 

Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?

Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.

 

() Yes, why not? That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.

 

The government is not going to maintain slaughterhouse, that's all. We don't forbid you; you can do at your home.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If economic problem solved, then everything is solved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY

Morning Walk                                                April 17, 1976, Bombay                                                           429299

Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are wise.

Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it.

Guru dāsa: No, no. Para-duḥkhī.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right...

Guru dāsa: Vaiṣṇava is not happy in someone else's misery.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...possible if you remain with the devotees. (Hindi) ...nondevotees' association. Satāṁ prasaìgān mama vīrya-saṁvido, bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Satāṁ prasaìgāt. Amongst devotees if you remain, then Kṛṣṇa-kathā will be so pleasing, rasāyanāḥ kathā, rasāyana. Therefore Narottama dāsa Öhākura said,

tādera caraṇa-sebī-bhakta-sane bās

janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ

Dr. Patel: The sat-saìga.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sat-saìga.

Dr. Patel: Is satāṁ saìga? It is sat-saìga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Even good literature saìga is also sat-saìga, is it not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: So I am.... In the morning I do your sat-saìga, and afterwards I do the sat-saìga of Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. So it is a continuous sat-saìga. So don't say I am not doing it. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not.... I don't say that you are rascal.

Dr. Patel: No, about sat-saìga.

Prabhupāda: Rather, I think myself rascal because.... (laughter)

Dr. Patel: I say about sat-saìga. Let us turn the issue.

Prabhupāda: I could not draw you in my temple.

Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Into our hospital.

Indian: (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is.

Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. (break) (laughter) I will become after sixty-five.

Prabhupāda: You are fifteen years late already. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. (break) ...you think sir, that is more important than...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side.

Prabhupāda: No, clothing is.... Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ ...sa sannyāsī. It is not the clothing. Clothing is not.... Sa ...yogī ca na niragnir na cākriyaḥ.

 

Room Conversation                                       Melbourne, April 20, 1976                                                       429497

Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world and particularly throughout Australia?

Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and.... They are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient.

Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome?

Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education.

Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus.

Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do?

Mike Barron: But there are people...

Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want.

Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not?

Mike Barron: I think I know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mike Barron: I think I know.

Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life?

Mike Barron: To be happy in myself.

Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said "dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all.

Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out?

Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness?

Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that?

Prabhupāda: Find out.... But then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness.

Mike Barron: Can you tell me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die: you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man: you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is unhappiness. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. That is intelligence, that "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex. I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality?

Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die; I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness.

Mike Barron: Thank you.

Guru-kṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Mike Barron: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Devotee (3): ...which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it.

Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I.... (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background, laughter)

Mike Barron: I'll think about that.

Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking, commotion) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this.

Hariśauri: She's asking how many do we sell.

Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all.

Carol Jarvis (Woman Interviewer): Oh, no, I mean, how many do you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day?

Guru-kṛpā: Yeah, maybe.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands.

Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily.

Guru-kṛpā: Minimum.

Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars.

Carol Jarvis: A day?

Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking)

Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history.

Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries?

Prabhupāda: All over the world. Especially in Europe, America.

Hariśauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring.

Guru-kṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order. Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these...

Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: You have read that?

Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture.

Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation--about filming? Machine makes whirring sound)

Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.)

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore...

Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life--before this you were married. You were a businessman.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly?

Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress.

Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking?

Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking; it is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking. It is natural demand of the body.

Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking, that "I am hungry. I require..." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way.

Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: So if, if.... At least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boys. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men.

Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary?

Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness.... That I have already explained. Real happiness--to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Carol Jarvis: Insurance for what?

Prabhupāda: No more.... No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness?

Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things, that "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don't's and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's.

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: How old?

Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old.

Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty year old?

Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And.... So I am moving still all over the world.

Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live?

Prabhupāda: No, if.... You see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required.

Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial...?

Prabhupāda: It doesn't.... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition.

Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.; there is begging in the street each day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars?

Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know?

Carol Jarvis: Well, the material...

Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual, but you have no eyes to see to it.

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life.

Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: ...out of the sales of your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free."

Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them.

Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it.... When they pay for it, they will try to see "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the.... But after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money.

Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets?

Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit.

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"

Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)

Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.

Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot?

Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense.

Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs.

Prabhupāda: No, at the.... You talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post-dated check that "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or..." Shall I accept it?

Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Carol Jarvis: So for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview.

Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question.

Carol Jarvis: As I just said, they probably will some day.

Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. That is not possible.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.

Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal.

Guru-kṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young.

Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him...

Prabhupāda: Who is.... Who is...

Carol Jarvis: ...giving him command, a free mind.

Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say, "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible?

Carol Jarvis: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter)

Carol Jarvis: How do you know?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become...

Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared to not know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see...

Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every.... Your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man, old woman.

Carol Jarvis: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How do you know?

Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say, "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease."

Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy.

Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know...

Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't.... I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge.

Carol Jarvis: So your answer...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: ...is to work with nature.

Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that...

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

The.... You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Carol Jarvis: Why.... Why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way?

Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination.

Carol Jarvis: Isn't it also your natural.... Isn't it natural to...

Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means.... Struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is.... The whole world is going on, that.... They have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain.... But they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So, but they are not coming to the point of understanding that "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. If we remain dull--"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"--and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You can never stop it.

Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature at all?

Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young.

Carol Jarvis: No, no, no...

Prabhupāda: Everyone...

Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them.

Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is.... That is your.... That is...

Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy.

Prabhupāda: That's all.... You are not happy.

Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is.... Then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain.

Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a mouth, and you do the same to them. You call them, and they jump.

Prabhupāda: No.

Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master.... Just like a physician. He is asking that "Come here. Lie down." He is knife.... He knows that he'll make surgical.... He agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says, "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing.

Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning.

Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda. (break)...yogi(?). There are many animals. They are also doing.... (background conversation) And Garuòa also, vegetarian.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuòa.

Prabhupāda: Garuòa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really.... To become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That is our.... We are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our.... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says, "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take.

Guest: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī, they: "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no..." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpaïcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapaïcikā, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpaïcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī. We are not such fools. Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's.... Actually that is good. Even if you enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Then it is good; otherwise bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero-vādīs or impersonal-vādīs. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books.

Prabhupāda: The quality's changed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now, no more money, no more anything.

Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all.... But we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they.... This philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything.... Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam. Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is.... Then why he's criminal. If you plea.... If you present this plea that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend...," but that is not the idea, that the money.... My money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending. I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me. You are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money?

Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ, bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasām. Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasā... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam. You'll see this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad-gītā

 

Recording of TV Interview                             April 20, 1976, Melbourne                                                      429360

Interviewer (1): ...were minstrels who wander who wander our city streets, mumbling about Hare Kṛṣṇa, then the man to answer your questions is the man who started the Kṛṣṇa movement, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. And if you have trouble following that, the best is yet to come. His message might seem complicated to the unconverted, but when it's all boiled down, it's quite simple. All you have to do is concentrate, like Carol Jarvis did during this in-depth interview. (sound of kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? (From here on follow excerpts of Interview, Melbourne, 4.20.76, combined with short, loud recordings of kīrtanas)

Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. (inserted kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life--before this you were married. You were a businessman.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly?

Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. (inserted kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. (inserted kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: How old?

Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. (inserted kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: Do you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.? There is begging in the street each day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. (inserted kīrtana)

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. (inserted kīrtana)

Interviewer (1): That was Carol Jarvis with the leader of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, a man with a message, and we hope you've taken note. Well, we'll be back in a moment, and this time with a surprise.... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                April 21, 1976, Melbourne                                                       429701

Prabhupāda: They'll never accept. But if they simply accept chanting, it will work. (tape of Prabhupāda chanting Govindam prayers in background) (break) ...say on these big, big buildings, but chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guru-kṛpā: Svanuṣṭhitaḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāì-manobhiḥ.

Prabhupāda: If you make condition that you stop this, it will be failure. And it is not possible.

Guru-kṛpā: I don't think you did like that in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru-kṛpā: In the beginning you just asked everyone to chant, and naturally they wanted to do more after.

Prabhupāda: And if they chant, gradually they'll be purified. (chants japa) (break) ...you take another body, you will greet.... This philosophy does not appeal to the Westerners. Eh? I think so. "Oh, what nonsense this is, speaking?" Eh? Do they not think like that?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes, they do.

Prabhupāda: But that is the actual fact.

Devotee (1): This philosophy's alien to everything they heard, so it's different than everything they heard.

Prabhupāda: No, no, the.... A fact is that. Why it is alien?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, the Western religions have taught that whatever you do in this lifetime will determine whether you go to heaven or hell, and there's no second chance.

Prabhupāda: So.... So they are not afraid of going to hell? There are two alternatives, either heaven or hell. But if he's going to hell?

Guru-kṛpā: That's why they have confession.

Prabhupāda: Oh, finished everything.

Devotee (2): Contract.

Prabhupāda: How he...?

Guru-kṛpā: Like my father is very sinful, but he would always say, "The good Lord is protecting me." He would always say, "God, God," but he never would follow anything. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...wars? Why...? Why the God does not stop the wars? And they are so much afraid of war. What is the answer?

Guru-kṛpā: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. They are mad for sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: No.... That is all right, but God.... Your father says Lord will protect, but when there is atomic bomb, why He does not protect?

Guru-kṛpā: Well, up to now He's protected.

Prabhupāda: He is protected. Others are not protected. So his term has not yet come. But what is the answer, that "Lord has become your obedient servant to protect. And when He does not?" Actually He does not. The.... In Europe they are very, very much afraid of war, next war. You know that? It becomes a terrible fright for them. Therefore war was not declared. They are very much frightened. They have suffered two big world wars. So why the God did not protect them? (break) ...cow dung philosophy. Cow dung philosophy you know? That one cow dung is just passed through, and the other cow dung is being burned. So this cow dung is laughing, "Oh, you are burned." (laughter) He does not know that when the.... She will be burned. She will be dried up; she will be burned. So your father's logic is like that, "I am protected," laughing at the death of others. Cow dung philosophy.

Guru-kṛpā: I wouldn't even give him cow dung. Too good for him. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...gobar hase(?). Gobar means just fresh cow dung. And she is laughing. And the dry cow dung, he is burning. Bhute pare gobar hase(?). This.... This little logic is very good.

Devotee (1): Some people think, "I will never grow old and die."

Prabhupāda: Kim āścāryam ataḥ param.

ahany ahani lokāni

gacchanti yama-mandiram

śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti

kim āścāryam ataḥ param

That is the eighth wonder. (break)

Guru-kṛpā: ...yesterday that in India even a simple village man, he has no material affluence, and still he can understand he is not this body. But here they are big, big learned philosophers and they cannot understand the first thing.

Prabhupāda: But how they received, eh? You were present. They came to receive: "Oh, it is our great fortune you have come." And in your country, it is trespassing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was when we were in the field in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very poor farmers came up very nicely to greet Prabhupāda.

Devotee (1): Western people want to think they're the body. Otherwise how can they enjoy all their technology?

Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?

Devotee (1): They want to think they're the body. They don't want to hear that "I'm not the body," because if they're not in illusion, they can't try and enjoy so much the things of the West.

Prabhupāda: That means foolish, less intelligent.

Guru-kṛpā: We are walking across everyone's field to go the river, and they are saying, "Haribol!"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: Here they are coming with dogs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fences.

Guru-kṛpā: Especially if it's a devotee, they'll be more eager to shoot.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...foreign or this, a small river. (break)

Devotee (2): 1717. Captain Cook.

Guru-kṛpā: He's the same one that went to Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Guru-kṛpā: You know, and they never saw a white man there before. So the natives there in Hawaii were very enamored to see such a big white man, so they took him as God, and they were worshiping him. And one day...

Prabhupāda: Captain Cook?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes. And one day he was walking across the rocks and he hit his foot on a rock and he began to bleed. When they saw the blood, they said, "He is not a God. He is just like us." So they killed him and ate him.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Killed him?

Guru-kṛpā: Yeah, they killed him and ate him.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Guru-kṛpā: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He was eaten?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes. (laughter) He was taking advantage of their ignorance. (break)

Devotee (2): 1717. Captain Cook.

Guru-kṛpā: He's the same one that went to Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Guru-kṛpā: You know, and they never saw a white man there before. So the natives there in Hawaii were very enamored to see such a big white man, so they took him as God, and they were worshiping him. And one day...

Prabhupāda: Captain Cook?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes. And one day he was walking across the rocks and he hit his foot on a rock and he began to bleed. When they saw the blood, they said, "He is not a God. He is just like us." So they killed him and ate him.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Killed him?

Guru-kṛpā: Yeah, they killed him and ate him.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Guru-kṛpā: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He was eaten?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes. (laughter) He was taking advantage of their ignorance. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...these original Hawaiians, they were man-eaters.

Guru-kṛpā: Yes.

Devotee (1): No, they weren't. They just ate him. He had been there a couple of times, so they became suspicious when he came back. He had been exploiting them. (break)

Guru-kṛpā: ...were so worried, but this country is so big, and there's only twelve million people. More people live in New York City than in this whole country. And they say "overpopulation."

Prabhupāda: They would not allow.

Guru-kṛpā: Yes, they don't allow.

Devotee (3): They have the "white Australia policy." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Chinese man, Indians, they will come in large number. But they will not allow. That is the difficulty.

Guru-kṛpā: There's more cows in this country than people.

Prabhupāda: They are killing?

Guru-kṛpā: They are eating them.

Prabhupāda: And other countries, they are starving for want of milk. Therefore I say the United Nation simply barking dogs. What is the value if they cannot adjust? United Nation, all the nations should take advantage all the facilities offered, but that they will not allow. And they are named, "United." Just see. Farce.

Devotee (1): In New Zealand they have a hundred million tons of surplus milk powder, and they can't sell it, so they decided to feed it to the pigs. They could send it all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Why not take it free and send it to India? (break) ...of the world. Everything is sufficiently there, but still,some are starving and some are enjoying for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guru-kṛpā: The rascals, they try to blame everything on Kṛṣṇa by saying, "Why is Kṛṣṇa letting people starve?"

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving them sufficient. They are mismanaging. Still, Kṛṣṇa is still bad. Envious. Kṛṣṇa created this earth. Did He say, "This is for the Australians. This is for the Americans"? Did He say? Why you are keeping so much land as "Australia"? That is also Kṛṣṇa's fault? Australia was never given to the Englishmen. They came and they, by force they took it. So similarly America, the land was there.

Devotee (3): They call this colonization, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you may call, there are thieves, rogues and thieves. That's all.

Devotee (3): Exploiting.

Guru-kṛpā: Now they're dividing up the booty, fighting over it.

Prabhupāda: That story, that some thieves stolen. Now, when they are dividing, they say, "Please honestly, religious divide." The things are stolen, and now it is to be divided religiously. The foundation of the thing is stealing, and they are dividing in.... Now they are making laws, morality.

Devotee (1): They have a saying, "Honor among thieves."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) This has been named by father, kaitava, simply cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. The duplicity, hypocrisy, is there completely rejected.

Guru-kṛpā: Kṛṣṇa is a better cheater, though. He will cheat them in the end.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not cheater. The Kṛṣṇa's energy is so powerful that anyone who is a cheater, he will be cheated, that's all, automatically. (break) If you infect some disease, you'll have to suffer, automatically. It is not that the disease has to be injected. No. Because you have infected, you'll suffer. The same law is there. You have done this sinful. You'll suffer that. That is the cycle of birth and death. You have created mentality. You'll become the same animal, and you suffer. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya.

                                                                                                                                                                        429847

Prabhupāda: One thing immediately inform Rāmeśvara. In the Bhagavad-gītā yesterday they have edited "cattle-raising." But not cattle-raising. Cattle-raising means to grow and killing. That is the.... Means the rascals, they have edited.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, and we're.... (interference)

Prabhupāda: And "protection of cows," clearly.

Guru-kṛpā: Chapter Eighteen, Bhagavad-gītā, that the vaiśyas work...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Immediately inform them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I noticed that also. I thought it was strange, some time back. (break)

Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva edited. He thought, "cattle-raising." Not "cattle-raising," but the word.... There.... It is mistranslation. It is go-rakṣya, "giving protection to the cows." Especially mentioned, go-rakṣya, not otherwise. The animal-eaters may take other animals, but not cow. They can take the pig, goats, lambs, rabbits, so many others, if they at all want to eat meat, birds, these so many. There is no such mention that "Animals should be protected," no. "Cows should be protected." That is Kṛṣṇa's order. (break) They have decided to kill the cow. They have decided, "No brain. Eat." And our prayer is go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, "to do good to the brāhmaṇas and the cows." Actually it is revolutionary to the modern age. But how it is possible we say otherwise?

 

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That "First of all help people to think of Kṛṣṇa, and then later on, the rules and regulations..."

Guru-kṛpā: But we follow in the footsteps.... Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. We must follow what the spiritual master is doing. We cannot create our own way. Then we will not be successful.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's true, but...

Guru-kṛpā: That is their idea. They have created their own way to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that idea is there. They are thinking of their own way. That is bad. We have got so much, so many literatures. They are printing their own literature and.... That is disturbing, yes. What he'll prepare? He's not a liberated person. He's thinking, somebody said, that "I'll give my interpretation on Bhāgavata." If these things are going, they are.... It is against our principles. (break)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                   April 22, 1976, Melbourne                                                      429883

Prabhupāda: But they do not know how to keep clean. So in India there is no question how to keep clean. They do not know. They'll not take bath for days together. And he likes stop bathing(?), so many germs carrying. And he's a first-class person, sāheb, on account of the wealth (?). Last maybe. First-class.(?) Don't take bath, neither wash their mouth or hand. And that is...

Hari-śauri: That habit is spreading. I've seen in India. Even the Indian businessmen that come to see you...

Prabhupāda: They are imitating.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It's laziness.

Prabhupāda: But you see. I take little medicine and wash hand. But you don't learn it. You remain the same. You have to.... (microphone moving) I show example, but you don't do it. What can I do?

Hari-śauri: We're learning.

Prabhupāda: I do not know how long you'll learn.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) It's like you said in Māyāpura. It's a little artificial for us. It's very.... It's not...

Prabhupāda: Cleanliness unknown to the Western people.

Hari-śauri: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śaucam means cleanliness. The Western people, they do not know what is cleanliness. And therefore brāhmaṇa's another name is śuci, always clean. Three times' bathing, three times' changing cloth. It doesn't matter, loin cloth, but cloth must be changed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Outer cloth?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dhoti, like that?

Prabhupāda: No, you take bath. You have to change your cloth. It becomes wet. This is cleanliness. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śamena damena ca brahmacarya, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa. Tapasya, the first beginning of tapasya, is brahmacārī. Yamena niyamena vā tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena vā. This is human life, tapasā, brahmacaryeṇa, śamena, damena vā, then truthfulness, cleanliness, controlling the senses. So these things are required. Otherwise what is the difference between dog's life?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People don't see what the gain will be. If one.... People don't see, in Western countries, or appreciate what the gain will be by exerting much effort in these ways.

Prabhupāda: That they do not know, what is the real gain. They think this body is the gain only. And beyond this body there is another gain. That is not known. They do not know even. That is the defect of their civilization. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. They are taking care of the body, but beyond the body there is something else which is eternal. Even after the annihilation of the body, it does not become destroyed. That they do not know. There is no education. There is no research. There is no college. There is no science to understand. And that kind of taking care of the body, a dogs know. Sometimes the dogs, they rub their body on the ground like that. That.... That makes them rejuvenated. Horse also do that. So how to take care of the body, they know in their different method. But that is known to them. If before the horse you give them some meat, they'll not take. And give them peas; they'll take immediately.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Give them milk?

Prabhupāda: No, meat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat. He will not take.

Prabhupāda: And the dog, you give fruit; he'll dislike. Give him rotten meat, he can take. So there is difference between dog's life, horse life, even in animals.

Hari-śauri: They know how to look after their bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the argument that animals have no intelligence...

Prabhupāda: And what is your intelligence? You are using the intelligence for the same purpose. And what is the use of your intelligence?

Hari-śauri: It's just waste.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If animal has no intelligence, you have no intelligence. What you are doing more than the animals? That we are protesting, that "Why you should remain in the animal intelligence?" That is our propaganda.

Hari-śauri: If you can't prove yourself capable of taking use of better facility, then again you get less facility.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You explained very nicely how these boys and girls, they will sit on the floor. What is the need to manufacture chair? So a civilization which is geared to unnecessarily increasing the necessities is simply glorified...

Prabhupāda: Wasting time.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is not the real business of human life.

Prabhupāda: But they are thinking, "This is advancement. To sit on the floor is primitive, but to sit on the chair is civilized."

Hari-śauri: Well, when we were on the plane in the first-class, we were eating with our hand, and I could see, these men, they were eating with knife and fork, and they were looking like this. And they were.... I could see what they were thinking. They were disgusted: "Here are these men, sitting in first-class, eating with their hands, very primitive and crude." And they're eating with knife and fork, and I was thinking, "What are they eating? Some beef or some meat preparation, like this." But they're thinking they're civilized.

Prabhupāda: Then why? Why?

Hari-śauri: Yes. "Because I have knife and fork, now I'm civilized."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember when I first went to Vṛndāvana and I saw in the villages how they were using dirt and charcoal to clean their pots and pans...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they use it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought the.... It was my condition.... I have never seen before. I thought, "What is this? They are making their pots and pans dirty?" Because, you know, we're so accustomed to detergents and soaps, and you have to have so many things to clean.

Prabhupāda: That is not also properly clean.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: The down side of the pan remains black. But if you take some dirt and rub it nicely, it become glisten.

Hari-śauri: Dirt is very first-class for cleaning.

Prabhupāda: Utensils for cooking purpose must be very, very clean. The.... If the black portion remains, in India they will not touch.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even on the bottom?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On the outside?

Prabhupāda: They'll not touch: "Oh, it is still dirty." But our going on. What can be done? Where there is no cleanliness, little rubbed with soap, that is sufficient. What can be done? But that is not cleanliness. If there is a black spot on the..., it has to.... It will immediately be cleaned. My mother used to see every utensil, whether there is any spot. The maidservant had to surrender. Examine. Then it is no spot. Then it is finished. Otherwise she has to do again. Everything should be neat and clean. The kitchen should be very neat and clean, washed twice daily, opened nicely and smeared with water and gobar. And if you see the kitchen, immediately you'll feel comfortable. It is very cleanly prepared, then offered to the Deity. Then you take. Automatically your mind becomes cleansed. (break)

Room Conversation(3)                                  Melbourne, April 22, 1976                                                       430076

Brian Singer: Do you find that in the translation from the thoughts and the Sanskrit to the English words, then from the English words to the mass of the people's heads, do you find that there is much loss?

Prabhupāda: No, if you have grasped the thought, that you can express in any language. But if you cannot grasp the thought, then you cannot express. So the.... Our translation is that we have to receive the thoughts as it is by the paramparā system. Therefore it is presented so nicely, and people like it. It is.... It is the value of the subject matter. That we have to receive from authorities. Just like any scientific book, say medical science. You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the paramparā system.... Arjuna said, evaṁ paramparā... Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam. Everything is paramparā. If you receive the knowledge from the authority, then you are in perfect knowledge, simply by..., not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up. (pause) Take prasādam. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                       April 23, 1976, Melbourne                                                       430100

Devotee (1): ...social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary.

Guest: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you.

                                                                                                                                                                        430112

Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself..." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇòita, he is learned. And another three things,

bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jïātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God.... When I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not.... Why do they not pass a resolution that "This earth planet..." Take.... Only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the..." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come because you think it is your land.

Guest: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe.

Guest: I agree that it's not.

Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming. So much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam.

Guest: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world...

Prabhupāda: Production.... You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved.

Guest: If there was exchange for that money, I think you'd be right.

Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing.... Instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen. Instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries.

Guest: Is incense a form of intoxication?

Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication?

Guest: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh.

Guest: Very sweet-smelling.

Guru-kṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating.

Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent.

Guru-kṛpā: Perfume?

Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular.

Guest: But I would have thought that in some ways it might have perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest: In other words, it...

Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. Originally in India it was dhūpa. They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense.

Guest: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded...

Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life.

Guest: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables?

Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat? So He said that...

Guru-kṛpā: "If one offer me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram, a little flower, puṣpam, a little fruit, and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals--no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way.

Guest: Well, why do you put the stricture on...

Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way, no meat-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk?

Guest: So milk is very important.

Prabhupāda: Very, very important.

Guest: In terms of production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals.

Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically...

Guest: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?

Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow?

Guest: Not exactly.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that "You offer Me this particular source of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become free from sinful reaction.

Guest: I see.

Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        430180

Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that we are not interested in God; then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his objective, different leaders, different isms. The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims.

                                                                                                                                                                        430200

Prabhupāda: ...misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only.... The marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga. There will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise marriage is a.... According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg... Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas, they are given. Ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ.(?) Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is.... Then marriage. During marriage time.... You have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content, as much as possible, to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. That was the system. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death, and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to.... Big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        430210

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. That is already dictated by Bhāgavata. These leaders, rascals who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do?

Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brāhmaṇa, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction--our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction--then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries.

Guru-kṛpā: Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇòūyanena karayor iva duḥkha. And the sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life--sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These Brahma-kumārīs. Not brahmacārī but Brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs. They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī. They enjoy and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there, that's all. Everywhere this is going on.

 

Morning Walk                                               April 24, 1976, Melbourne                                                        430744

house, (break) ...so that you will work hard. And he used to do that. You bring money and he'll spend. And if you say, "Sir, we collected this money for this purpose." "Yes, he spent. You again collect." Somebody has paid that constructing temple, and he has spent for other purpose. Then, when the devotee will say, "Oh, what this man will say?" "That's all right. You collect again." (break) ...he'll get some money, he'll make some arrangement for doll exhibition and spend the all money.

Guru-kṛpā: Are they going to start on Māyāpura building this year?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: That is beginning?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Collect and spend. Collect and spend for Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. I am therefore asking them to print books. I have got so much in the Book Fund. Print books. Let there be books stocked and no money stocked. (break) ...upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje.

Guru-kṛpā: Prabhupāda, we just got here.... Now we've just gotten one farm, two hundred acres. We're purchasing this next week. For eleven thousand dollars, two hundred acres.

Prabhupāda: Very cheap.

Guru-kṛpā: And it is up north. It is just like India, very hot, and you can grow everything. Hot all year round.

Prabhupāda: So grow fruits, flowers, grains. Keep some men. It is very nice. (break) ...stones(?), they can go.

Guru-kṛpā: Yes. They're aren't very attracted to it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A little over fifty dollars an acre? Very reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Very cheap. Very cheap.

Guru-kṛpā: Less than that.

Prabhupāda: That New Orleans, our farm? It was nice.

Guru-kṛpā: Māyāpura is the best farm.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And it will be still better when our plan is made.

Guru-kṛpā: We want to set the example this year by also giving a big donation to Māyāpura and also building here.

Prabhupāda: At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything. There must be.... But in India they want to cheat you, and you are very expert, being cheated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is our karma. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Not karma. You are working sincerely, that's all.

Guru-kṛpā: We are expert cheaters also. That's how we get the money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are big cheaters. You don't cheat two rupees, three rupees. Two millions. (laughs) That is accusation, Alexander and the thief. The thief accused Alexander the Great that "What is the difference between you and me? I am a small thief; you are a big thief. That's all. Why you are punishing me? You are a big thief. You are doing same thing." Then he was let loose. "Yes, what is difference? (laughs) I am a big thief." (break) ...means Alexander the Great, actually he was great. Otherwise he is the emperor, and ordinary thief is accusing him and he said, "Yes, I am thief." He admitted. That is greatness. That is greatness. If he was not great, then he would have hanged him or punished him: "Oh, you are so.... You are accusing me?" But no, he accepted. That is greatness. Mistake is one fault, but to accept that "I have done mistake," that is greatness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that on the beach in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That when a man admits that he is a mūòha, he is no more a mūòha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he has understood that "What I am doing? I am mūòha."

Guru-kṛpā: Lord Caitanya says, ayi nanda-tanuja kiìkaraṁ patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau.

Prabhupāda: Fell down. Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: One has to admit that he is fallen.

Prabhupāda: This is the land you wanted to purchase?

Devotee (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, it is still unsold?

Devotee (1): No one can do anything with it now.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee (1): This neighborhood here, they will not allow any more than three stories to be built, no high rise.

Prabhupāda: Oh. There cannot be any skyscraper building, so no capitalist will purchase.

Devotee (1): And no developer will use it just to make three-story flats because the land is too expensive. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                April 26, 1976, Melbourne                                                       430802

Devotee (1): (break) ...devotee is only unhappy to see others unhappy. Does this ever cease? Is a devotee always unhappy because of this?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (1): Is a devotee always in some anxiety to see others unhappy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. How to deliver them? This is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. This kind of anxiety is welcome.

Devotee (1): Yes. Is that also in the spiritual world like this?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In spiritual world there is everything, but only central point is Kṛṣṇa. Here anxiety is "Where I shall get money? Where I shall get woman?" And there is anxiety, "How shall I get Kṛṣṇa?" The anxiety is there. That is the difference.

Devotee (1): But do they have anxiety...

Prabhupāda: Here all people are anxious how to get money and how to get woman, that's all. And there the anxiety is how to get Kṛṣṇa. The anxiety is there, but quality is different.

Devotee (1): If we're in anxiety that we cannot perform devotional service nicely, that is all right?

Prabhupāda: That is devotional side. Kṛṣṇa anxiety itself is the first-class devotional service. If one becomes anxious like that, then he is perfect. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. After many, many millions of life of pious activities one can get such anxiety. This is not so easy, to become anxious for Kṛṣṇa. You don't think it is like ordinary activity (anxiety?). Koṭi-sukṛtaiḥ. If one becomes full of anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage of perfection.

Devotee (1): So the anxiety that I am always falling down...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): We are in the neophyte stage, and we're often falling down.

Prabhupāda: You don't imitate. You follow the rules and regulations. Don't try artificially to be anxious. When you are purified, then you'll get that anxiety, not artificially. Then you are sahajiyā.

Devotee (1): I don't mean to hanker for the anxiety, but to...

Prabhupāda: No, anxiety, that is.... That will come, the perfectional stage. Don't try to be perfect artificially. Perfect stage, we have to follow strictly the regulative principle, the injunction of the spiritual master, śāstra. Then you come to that stage. Don't artificially imitate.

Devotee (1): What if one keeps falling down from following the regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: He's falling down? If he's falling down from regulative principles, that means he's falling down to the material world. Falling down means falling down.

Devotee (2): (break) ...from the regulative principles and feels anxiety, then that anxiety is material anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): It's not spiritual.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anxiety for one's self is māyā?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anxiety for one's self is māyā?

Prabhupāda: That is material.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And anxiety for Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. (break) ...Gosvāmī's śloka. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "The anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, if it can be purchased, immediately purchase it." Rūpa Gosvāmī said. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase Kṛṣṇa anxiety if it is available somewhere." So the next question will be that "What is the price?" Tatra laulyam api mūlyam ekalam: "That anxiety can be purchased by anxiety." "So I'll do it." No. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate: "That anxiety is not available even by millions of births' pious activities." So this anxiety is not so easy.

Devotee (1): So if we're performing the Deity worship and we get in anxiety, how to make it nice...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. If you become anxious how to worship Deity, how to dress Kṛṣṇa nicely, how to do, if you remain, that will develop your anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Deity worship essential. Exactly in time to get up, to offer maìgala-ārati, to dress, this anxiety is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Then, when you become perfect, you'll always be anxious for Kṛṣṇa. And that is perfectional stage. Therefore, by the injunction of the śāstra, regulative, it is a way of creating that anxiety. So we must follow. Then we'll come to the real anxiety.

Guru-kṛpā: Not artificially.

Devotee (1): So therefore it is good that we have so much Deity worship to do that we're very, very busy and we do not have any time?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): We practically do not have enough time, but that is very good?

Prabhupāda: Enough time?

Devotee (1): To worship the Deity. We have so much to do.

Prabhupāda: So what enough time you want? To go to the cinema? (laughter) Then? Your time has to be occupied by Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That's all. And as soon as you go to other anxiety, then it is māyā.

Guru-kṛpā: If we have four hours to dress the Deity, we can use the whole four hours. But sometimes we only have an hour and a half, so we have to rush. So that is anxiety.

Prabhupāda: No, that anxiety does not mean this laziness, that "I am anxiety for four hours. Deity cannot be opened now. I am in anxiety." That is negligence. That is negligence. That is not anxiety.

Devotee (2): When we are distributing books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and we are not doing so good and we are in anxiety, that is also spiritual?

Prabhupāda: That is.... For selling books anxiety is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. If you become very anxious how to sell more books, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is not trade anxiety; that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety.

Guru-kṛpā: So some people say that "When I go on saìkīrtana to sell books I become in too much anxiety if I'm not doing well, so I'd rather not do it."

Prabhupāda: No, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. He does not know. Let him know that that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Yaśodā, mother Yaśodā, became mother of Kṛṣṇa so that she would always remain in anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, whether Kṛṣṇa is safe. That is mother's anxiety. Therefore she became mother. How to become in Kṛṣṇa anxiety? This philosophy nobody knows. Everyone takes Kṛṣṇa as the father. Father means I'm anxiety-less: "Father, you supply my wants." And to become father of Kṛṣṇa means to purchase anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. This philosophy they do not know.

 

Room Conversation                                        Auckland, April 27, 1976                                                        431024

Prabhupāda: And you can disvertise(?) it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life--simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating--eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping--oh, there is no limit, twenty-four hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense--and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces.... Just like we have taken sannyāsa. What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young..., old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot.... Now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing, spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. Mantrauśadhi-vaśa. Even, by mantra, the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra, then it will lose its effect.

                                                                                                                                                                              431040

Prabhupāda: Not only one, you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to.... At the same time, man. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor.... putputputputputputputputput! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a roaring motor). They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle? Put-put? What is the difference?

Devotee (2): Nothing.

Prabhupāda: And they're taking it, highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put-put-put-put? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the race course. That's all. It cannot go beyond the race course. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva, conditioned. You cannot cross the condition, that is not possible. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūòhātmā, foolish, rascal. Mūòha, not. Vimūòhātmā, "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers, and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are.

Devotee (2): Vimūòha.

Prabhupāda: Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals.

Guru-kṛpā: Vimūòhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jïāna-cakṣuṣaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūòhas. Better remain mūòha. Not special rascal. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                              May 2, 1976, Fiji                                                               431118

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that "Some way or other, I become guru. Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru." This is going on. Not bona fide guru. Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā: "Become guru." Why ambition? Actually become guru. But how to become guru? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa'. That's it, otherwise goru. So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru. What is meaning of guru, they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru. This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily. If you can manufacture.... You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru. People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra, then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class.

Guru-kṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification.

Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras. But people do not want that.

Guru-kṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra, but where is.... He's not specifically paramparā.

Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of "Nitāi-Gaura." He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma. So the Nitāi-Gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was Nitāi-Gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura. From his words it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-viruddha. But some way or other, he was chanting Nitāi-Gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way, some pulp will come because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting Nitāi-Gaura, but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-viruddha. The siddhānta-viruddha means it will deteriorate. It will not endure.

Guru-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business.... Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra ei deśa. That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra ei deśa. Tāra means preaching. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa'. And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple," that's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward--pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo--that is stopped. So by hari-nāma, by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep--better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple.... Just like the Vṛndāvana Gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some.... Bas, that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is his who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over..." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra. What they are doing for that? That is point.

Guru-kṛpā: What if sometimes disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra: "Go to do good to others. First of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like.... What is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari. "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. Perfect means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājïāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective.

Guru-kṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not...

Prabhupāda: Many? What you...? Many followers.... The philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This.... What is that? Guruji Mahārāja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or.... Many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers, the quality of the followers. My Guru Maharaja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru. By quality--what kind of followers? That is the.... From the very beginning my strictures are there, that "You have to follow this"--quality. If I were..., "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru. (break) That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of the millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ. Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, tap water. Here so many dobs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC and he is going as to be..., business. And for hearing Bhagavad-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheòyadāsana. Bheòyadāsana (indistinct). Bheòī, lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands. They flock. So, and if one bheòī, lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the.... All of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called in Hindi, bheòyadāsana, that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheòī, means animal, their disciple like this.

 

Morning Walk                                                      May 3, 1976, Fiji                                                                431276

(break) ...Purī was chanting in a solitary place, and Kṛṣṇa came to supply him milk. Why? His determination was that "If somebody gives me voluntarily, I shall eat. Otherwise, I am not going to ask anybody." But he is being supplied.

Guru-kṛpā: Sanātana Gosvāmī also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But for a renounced order of life, the order is you must beg, bhikṣā. Not much. If I can subsist by taking one cāpāṭi, I'll simply ask for one cāpāṭi, not for two cāpāṭis. That is śāstra. If you can without any cāpāṭi, that is very good. But you can ask as much as you require. Not to eat sumptuously and sleep twenty-four hours, no.

Devotee: And what about householders?

Prabhupāda: Householder can eat the whole world and sleep. (laughter) Because he is householder, he has got the concession. Everyone should do that. Householders are unable; that is their incapability. "Because I am householder, I have got the facility to have sex as many times and eat as much..." That is not householder. That is gṛhamedhī. There are two words: gṛhamedhī and gṛhastha. Gṛhastha is different from gṛhamedhī. Gṛhastha āśrama. Although he's householder, it is āśrama, only for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is gṛhastha. But gṛhamedhī cannot do that.(break) ...man has got the potency. Otherwise why they are offering...? Everyone has got the potency. We have to utilize it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You understand English?

Indian (indistinct): Yes, Guruji.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi, "Sex life which is not against religious principles, I am that." Not that sex life, as soon as you like, sex. That is not gṛhastha. That is gṛhamedhī. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma-aviruddha means simply for begetting nice child you can have..., not for enjoyment. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. This is Vedic principle. Putraḥ-piṇòa-prayojanam. A bhāryā, wife, is accepted only for having son. Not for any other purpose. Putraḥ-piṇòa-prayojanam. This is material side, but still, it is religious. First education is brahmacārī, how to train him to avoid sex life. And still if he's not able, then he is allowed to become a gṛhastha, a little concession. Otherwise, the whole Vedic civilization is: how to avoid sex life. Brahmacārī--no sex life. Vānaprastha--no sex life. Sannyāsa--no sex life. Only gṛhastha, under control. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhastha does not mean one who is doing everything whimsically on account of getting this concession. He's not gṛhastha, he's gṛhamedhī. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam.... Gṛhamedhī means he does not know what is spiritual life. That is gṛhamedhī. And gṛhastha means he knows what is spiritual life, and he lives on that status. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhamedhī's definition is.... Everything is there in the śāstra. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not know what is the aim of life. It is like something, something like cats and dogs. They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam.

 

Room Conversation                                              May 3, 1976, Honolulu                                                     431329

Prabhupāda: So this movement should be pushed very vigorously. And so far, we have become successful. And enemies will be always, as soon as there is something good. That is the way of material world. Even Kṛṣṇa had enemies, what to speak of us. Eh? So many enemies, but He was powerful; He killed all them. Nobody could kill Him, but there was attempt to kill Him from the very beginning of His birth. He had so many enemies. As soon as Kaṁsa heard that his sister is now newly married, but as soon as there was some foretelling, "Ah, you are taking care of your sister so nicely. The eighth child of this sister will kill you." "Oh, where is your child? Where is pregnancy?" Nothing. He became angry. "So why wait for eighth child? Kill my sister." Long, long before taking birth of Kṛṣṇa, the mother was to be killed. This is the position of this material world. So he became so bad that "My sister..." He did not consider that "She is my sister, and she is just newly married. Where is pregnancy? Where is child? And that is the eighth child, and what will happen after that?" No consideration. Immediately, "Kill him, kill her." This is the position. So we are instructing: no intoxication. So those who are flourishing by selling cigarettes and wine and liquor, they do not... "Immediately kill him." Oh, yes, in this way. "If they, the movement goes and becomes very strong, then our business will be lost. Kill him." So naturally they will be enemies. The same thing, the Kaṁsa saw that "This my sister, now she is married. So although it will take some long time, but here is the cause." So they are thinking like that. No meat-eating, then all slaughterhouses will be closed: "They're enemy." Although there is no such symptom that slaughterhouse is going to be closed, but they'll think like that. They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... (break) ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that. So the modern civilization, we are everyone saying. Because you have forbidden: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. The whole Western world living on these four pillars. Just see our position. And the same conscious way, everyone is thinking, "If this movement goes on, then how all these nightclubs will go on? How all breweries will go on? How all slaughterhouse will go on, cigarette factories will go on?" This is all foolish. So you cannot expect that we will get more, many friends. That is not possible, because the world is full of Kaṁsas, demons. So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life. That much is great, advance. They're feeling the pulse. Now when they are meeting, state obstacles. Everywhere we are meeting obstacles. In Singapore.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We went to the airport.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And practically they didn't even want to let us stay in the airport. We had to stay there only for four hours to catch the next flight. They are so much...

Prabhupāda: This is our position. Gradually they will show Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. In India also, although India's... They will want to crush down this movement. So this will be up to Him. Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's movement, the same thing. And Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed by Kaṁsa class of men and his company, the demons. So it will be there; it is already there. Don't be disappointed, because that is the meaning that it is successful. Kṛṣṇa's favor is there, because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's movement is not different, nondiff..., identical. So as Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed, many, many years before He appeared... At eighth child, if the mother produces child yearly, still ten years, eight years before His birth, the mother was to be attempted to be killed. So there may be attempt like that. And Lord Jesus Christ was killed. So they may kill me also.

Siddha-svarūpa: I don't think that is possible.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, I am not so important man. But it is the, this is the way of the law. If we become weak by factioning, then that is not good. We must be strong and... But you do not expect that this movement will be accepted. In India the so-called yogis, Rama Krishna Mission--they are also being afraid of. There are so many... But if we remain sincere, even we are feeble, new-born, nobody can kill us. That is a fact. Just like Kṛṣṇa when He was three months old, attempt was made by Putanā to kill Him, but the Putanā was killed. A big demon, gigantic, six miles long, and what is killed by a small child playing on the..., sucking breast and sucking life. That is Kṛṣṇa. So the other day I have explained that by guru, he is accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have typed it?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Go on. Yes, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Narakī, if anyone thinks arca-vigraha, the Deities as made of stone, made of earth, or made of something material, and guru, the spiritual master, "He is an ordinary man"--these are forbidden. So why guru is to be considered sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstrair, exactly (like) the Supreme Personality of Godhead? That reason is given there. That reason is that he is giving the Kṛṣṇa knowledge; therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Even though his family members or his friend thinking, "Oh, he has now become guru," still he should be considered the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That reason also given there, that even Kṛṣṇa was taken as ordinary man, but does it mean that He has become ordinary? Similarly any..., our movement, it may appear just like other movement, but because the movement is giving Kṛṣṇa, that means it is as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is the example. Ajïāya haïa (follow the order). It may appear to others... And there are so many movements, and the hippies have taken another say(?), but it is not that. It is actually Kṛṣṇa. So long it adheres to the principle, "I'll enjoy, I'll be unaccepted(?)." Otherwise it is ordinary movement. This same man, he's guru, so long he gives the real knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. And the same man, he's ordinary man, as soon as he cannot give. Same thing, just like a stone doll, when it is worshiped according to the regulative principles--Kṛṣṇa. And the same doll, kept in the sculptor's showroom, it is stone. So if we keep our movement pure, then you are as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you deviate from it, immediately, ordinary. This is the secret. Now it is up to us, how to keep it pure. Then no enemy can kill us. Nobody can kill you. That purity is wanted, then it will... So what is there difficulty? Their purity to kill him(?). Follow the rules and regulations, worship the Deity, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, as you have given, then you will remain as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And if we manufacture some idea also, that is no good. Kṛṣṇa cannot be manufactured; Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture another form competitor of Kṛṣṇa. That is no good. Then failure. Just like the, your one competitor came to, even in the lifetime of Kṛṣṇa, Pauṇòraka.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: With artificial four hands. You know that? (laughs) That is no (indistinct). This movement is actually the real movement to raise the human society. And if we create factions, then the movement will be less strong and will not act very (indistinct)

                                                                                                                                                                        431386

Siddha-svarūpa: There are a lot of devotees here who follow the principles but cannot completely... (break) ...shaved up, and they still wear karmī clothes pretty much, but they're clean, they're devotees, and in this way they're attracting many of the local people, because they're able to relate to them.

Prabhupāda: So that...

Siddha-svarūpa: They're not lowering your standard.

Prabhupāda: No, naturally, but when they are initiated they must shave. They must keep to the standard. If one becomes initiated and he still keeps the hippie form, that does not look nice. Do you think that is all right? No, that is not good. So long they are coming as outsider, joining kīrtana, they may have their own dress, it doesn't matter. They are coming to kīrtana, that must be (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master.

Siddha-svarūpa: So...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise they should not be initiated. It is simple thing. Let them go on chanting, taking prasādam; we have no (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow. This is the clear (indistinct). If you don't want to disturb them, let them come, chant, dance, take prasādam We have no objection. But don't recommend them for initiation unless he agrees to the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Where is the wrong? Where is the difficulty? You can talk with him like that.

Siddha-svarūpa: I think they only feel that because...

Prabhupāda: No feeling, if you..., when you are surrendering to the spiritual... Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. Find out this verse. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā.

Hari-śauri:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jïānaṁ

jïāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively..."

Prabhupāda: Mm? Where are they? Mm.

Hari-śauri: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

Prabhupāda: You have to submit. You cannot remain independent. That is the first condition. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ,śiṣya. Śiṣya means voluntarily accepting the rules offered by the spiritual master. That is śiṣya: "Ah, yes, I agree to abide by your order." Then he becomes śiṣya. Otherwise where is the question... "I am thinking like this, I am thinking..." So long you are thinking otherwise, you don't try to become a śiṣya. You remain outside and you are welcome: chant, dance, take prasādam, and remain independent. There is no objection. But when you become śiṣya, then you cannot remain independent. These things convince him. Then you don't become śiṣya. Remain as friend, there is no harm. Just like so many people, they come. So if these things (indistinct). One thousand twenty, checks (indistinct). This way. What is the wrong there?

Hari-śauri: So then part of initiation means that you're prepared to do something more than simply chant and eat prasādam?

Prabhupāda: Initiation means to follow instructions of the spiritual master. That is the first (indistinct) And if there is still hesitation to surrender to the rules and regulations, then all other (indistinct).

Siddha-svarūpa: I think it is pretty clear, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's just for clarification, that they're working, they have a store on..., a very nice store, they're distributing foodstuffs to all the other stores on the island, and they're working a lot within the society with the karmīs, I guess. So their thinking is that "If we shave our heads and wear robes, like that, then they'll look at us...

Prabhupāda: That is not... Because imitating. Officially don't chant. Who is prohibiting to chant? You can chant, you can dance, you can take prasādam.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can they actually say that "His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is my spiritual master" if they haven't accepted all of the instructions?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can one actually say that my spiritual master is such-and-such person if I am not following all of the...

Prabhupāda: What is the use of following (indistinct). We have got that simple thing, you can follow. What is the use? False propaganda. Because you think that we could not accept... (indistinct) ...we are trying to follow the (indistinct).

Hari-śauri: One of the differences that first sprung up between the two groups was that one group was going out when you were saying "Go out and distribute books profusely," so they were going and distributing. And they had various means of doing it. Some were not so good, but still the books were going out. Then the group that split away, they were saying, "Ah, you're disturbing the public by these methods of book distribution. We don't want..." This is what happened in Australia, the one temple in Brisbane. They became very much against the saìkīrtana methods, and as a result they gave up the saìkīrtana program altogether and then went to live on farms like this, and they left the temple and the temple was finished. So like this, they were saying that "We're still following Prabhupāda's instructions, but we..." But they were saying that the devotees who were distributing the books, they were not following instructions. Like that.

Prabhupāda: His Divine Grace has said that "You distribute book," and why do you say that?

Hari-śauri: Well, their idea was that because sometimes the public is becoming disturbed by the book distribution, then therefore it's not being done correctly. So it should be stopped.

Prabhupāda: Public may disturb, but we are following our own course of action. It is not obligatory. We are requesting you, "Take this book." That is not obligatory. "If you like, you can take. If you don't like, don't take."

Siddha-svarūpa: I think that...

Hari-śauri: So what their idea was that we shall build some public relations, like you said with this store. They prefer to try to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness by public relations, give good impression, and then people will come.

Prabhupāda: Then you are dictated by the public, not by the dictation of your spiritual master. Spiritual master has ordered to distribute books; you shall do that. That is obedience. Now the public may take or not take, that is public's option. But my duty is--because spiritual master has said--I must try my best. Spiritual master has not said that "You must sell so many books daily, otherwise I will reject you." He has not said that. So everyone may try his best, that's all. The public may take or not take, it doesn't matter. And if you are, want to please the public, public says that "You dance naked, I will be very happy with you, I'll give you (indistinct)." So I'll have to do that. Then what is the use of making a spiritual master? Public, they have got their whims, how to become pleased. So we are to follow all these things? We have to follow our instruction of the spiritual master. That is... (indistinct) Why to manufacture "The public will be pleased like this"? Public may or may not give you, what you can do?

Hari-śauri: Our success is in the spiritual master's pleasure, not the public's pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja? "You haven't got to please so many religious instructions. You simply please Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's...

Siddha-svarūpa: I don't think the devotees who factioned out were against book distribution. I think that a little bit was that some of the devotees were using very, very forceful tactics and trying to give people books and take their money, and people were becoming very offended...

Prabhupāda: That is not (indistinct).

Siddha-svarūpa: That is not what you want.

Hari-śauri: That's all right, but don't give up the book distribution.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Hari-śauri: This is what happened. The temples fell down, the devotees went away. The ones who were distributing the books went on and distributed more books, became more expert, so that the public were not so much disturbed, and still they're distributing books. But these people who factioned off are not distributing books even now, two or three years later. So it was simply actually a question of faultfinding more than earnest desire to please the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Discuss.

Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                       Honolulu, May 4, 1976                                                             431467

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bas. Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America.

                                                                                                                                                                        431486

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse Tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not..., or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. They are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though.

Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of.... Unless one is prepared to.... Just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything.... Just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is.... Even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally himself, he is hiding. Why this defect?

Drstadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system...

Prabhupāda: No, no, system.... If the.... You cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that will be corrected by education.

Prabhupāda: Education.... That means what is that education?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the.... They don't.... Of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body.... You can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body, individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one.... Works. Immediately the plane becomes.... It is.... So you must know where to touch. If.... I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down. "Ohhh." So finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you.... Just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is.... And they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied.

Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point--that is natural--where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment.... There are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point, that "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way. Nature's way is "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail.

Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure. "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ. So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūòha.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem...

Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought."

Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done.

Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of.... The laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above.... This, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassed. That is following little properly. Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that? Ask them. We know that.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it was.... The Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from.... Everyone was coming. So now argument that "If you are.... You are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."

 

Room Conversation                                         Honolulu May 7,1976                                                             431883

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Get them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic persons, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance, any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls, what is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman and Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first class worship. ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa should become a little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come in dead of night, what your husband, father would think, and there are so many (indistinct) and saintly (indistinct), please get out immediately." You have got that?

Devotees: Mm, hm.

Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking "What this rascal says, say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry that, "We have come leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love, they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...somehow or other, black market, white market, red market. Let them make... And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong.

 

Prabhupāda: That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Rāmakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have got wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs, what is called, fangs?

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: The quality?

Devotees: Fangs.

Prabhupāda: Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make... First of all try to push books, everywhere all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or... Blackmarket. Chinese also. Blackmarket, they cannot check.

431946

Prabhupāda: So in this way... You are all intelligent, you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins. There is field, and the arrow, and the bow. They have been figuratively. So this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, we... Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up this body and go back to home.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee, I mean just like you are always enthusing us to push on...

Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon and yasya prasādad bhagavata..., and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya, make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I did. Here is a verse, acyuta bala, acyuta bala. Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here?

Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servants of Arjuna. Simply you will have to act accordingly, then you will finish up enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇòavas. They have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our (indistinct). You'll be coming to America in about a month's time?

Prabhupāda: I think so.

Hari-śauri: Two weeks.

Prabhupāda: Three.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th.

Prabhupāda: So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yeah, if you like to come it's ready.

Prabhupāda: Mm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very gladdening we have got now nice building.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā-kṛṣṇa pābe. (indistinct) Balarām hoile nitāi, so this word bolo akutibe(?), it is supporter (indistinct) the verse (indistinct) nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ. Lord Baladeva. Give this garland to him and this flower to that boy. (dictation tape recording plays) (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                Honolulu May 12, 1976                                                           432020

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...farms all over the world, even in India, they have to irrigate the land.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to irrigate the land artificially like this. Either they dig a ditch and they pour water into the ditch by some method, or sprinkling like this. So in a society where everyone is God conscious, Kṛṣṇa says how He supplies the rain. Was there any need even for such irrigation?

Prabhupāda: Irrigation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Irrigation means digging a hole beside where the vegetables or grains are growing. Or will the rain just fall from the sky naturally?

Prabhupāda: You have to work. Otherwise.... This is material world. Without working, you cannot get anything. (break) ...between material world and spiritual world. In the material

world you have to work to get your necessities. In the spiritual world there is no need of working.

 

Morning Walk                                                May 26, 1976, Honolulu                                                          432264

Prabhupāda: Well, whatever they think, we say increase any number of population, but make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our program. We are not afraid of population. They are rascals. They're thinking that they feed people. We don't think that. We know Kṛṣṇa is feeding. But if he's a rascal, we don't want. We don't want to feed the rascals, we want feed the devotees.

Devotee (3): If the population increases at the rate it is now...

Prabhupāda: Let them increase. We don't care for it. We can maintain any number of population. Let them come and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. We're not afraid.

Hari-śauri: It appears from the Kṛṣṇa book that there were many billions of people more on this planet when Kṛṣṇa was here than there is now. And they had no problems then.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, we have got from history. They were begetting hundreds of children. There was no scarcity of food. And who is begetting now one hundred children? Ha? One or two or at utmost.... Utmost eight, ten. Wrong theory, population increasing. Rascal's theory.

Hari-śauri: It's just that they don't know how to manage nicely.

Prabhupāda: Ha?

Hari-śauri: They don't know how to manage nicely.

Prabhupāda: There's so many, so much land vacant all over the world--Australia, Africa, South America.

432294

Prabhupāda: Enormous. Why should we bother about conserving? We should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. The child is born; immediately there is milk in the breasts of the mother. And one minute before, there is no milk. There is no milk. Just the child is born, immediately. Who supplies the milk? He does not see that eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, that one Supreme is supplying all the necessities of the others. So our duty is only to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Other things will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (4): The example that if God is supplying, then why doesn't He supply the underprivileged countries? Just like in some places like India people are starving. So why doesn't He supply places like that?

Prabhupāda: Who says India is starving? You are saying. I'm Indian, I don't starve. You are false propaganda, "India's starving."

Devotee (4): Bangladesh they...

Devotee (3): I was in Bangladesh also; they're not starving.

Prabhupāda: No one is starving. This is all propaganda. This propaganda.... You know in your country there are so many foundations. There is so many false organizations. They're under the name of India, they draw the money and take it. I've seen it. They have got arrangement with the trustees of the fund, and with some propaganda they draw money, and then they divide, the trustees and the organization. That's all. I've seen.

                                                                                                                                                                        432319

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Chanting produce plain living, high thinking. The modern leaders, they don't want.

Hari-śauri: We're a threat to the society.

Prabhupāda: Their policy is "High living and poor thinking." They live in skyscraper but don't care for where they are going to next life, as a cat and dog. Never mind. Now live in skyscraper. Poor thinking. High living, poor thinking (laughter). No, that "Now I am living in the skyscraper building on the twenty-fifth story, and next life I'm going to be cockroaches here." (everyone laughs) They don't know that. He doesn't inquire, "Wherefrom the cockroaches coming?" (everyone laughs) He has got attachment for this twenty-fourth story, so, but he's working so that he'll become a cockroach. So Kṛṣṇa has given chance, "All right. You live in the twenty-fourth story as cockroach." And then you'll be again killed by some.... What is called?

Devotee (5): Tenants. Exterminator?

Prabhupāda: Yea. That he does not know. Therefore poor thinking. He's thinking that "I shall perpetually live here." And when the death will come, "Get out!" (everyone laughs) "Become a cockroach." What he'll do? What he'll do? What power you have got? Nature is the same, that he'll come. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. "Now everything finished. Get out and become a cockroach." How the scientists can stop it?

 

Morning Walk                                                 May 27, 1976, Honolulu                                                         432356

Prabhupāda: Sarva-yoniṣu. All kinds of forms of life, 8,400,000 different forms of life. So "The material nature is the mother and I am the seed-giving father." Why they do not accept this philosophy? And everything is going on. Just like in the family the mother is there and the father is there. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the father, and material nature is mother, and we are all sons. If we accept this simple philosophy, everything will be all right. Why they do not accept this philosophy, so many rascal philosophers? This simple philosophy. And this is a fact. What is this body? This body is this earth. "Dust thou art, dust thou beest." So the mother is this material nature. I've got this body. And the father, He is Kṛṣṇa, or God. What is wrong in accepting this philosophy? If this simple philosophy is accepted, the whole world will be happy. But they'll not accept it. These rascals will come, and speculate rascal philosophy. (laughing) With this simple philosophy... United Nations is there. Why do they not accept this simple philosophy? If God is the supreme father and in every religion they accept that, at least the Christian religion accept that supreme father, God, and the material nature is mother. And we are all sons. Not only human beings, every living being, even the dogs. This is philosophy, real philosophy. Is it all right?

Devotee (1): The philosophy now is that God is dead.

Prabhupāda: Ha? Father may be dead, but that does not mean the sons are also dead. Father is dead. This father is not dead. That is another rascaldom.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People might say the philosophy is very good theoretically, but practically speaking, people...

Prabhupāda: Why not practical? Why not practical?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are very greedy in this material world.

Prabhupāda: Then with these greedy, rascal, rogue, then how you can be happy? Ha? Needs to be punished only.

Hari-śauri: Therefore Marx said that that greed could be got rid of if everybody worked for the state.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: If everybody pooled their resources.

Prabhupāda: Why state?

Hari-śauri: Well, the state is the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: Take the whole world. You have got the United Nation; why you are busy about the state?

Hari-śauri: Well, his idea was that communism should be spread everywhere.

Prabhupāda: This is communism. First of all, you accept one father, or the whole world is father's property, and every living being has a right to enjoy the father's property. Why you are thinking this portion is Russia, this portion is American? It is father's property. So if there is rush in China or India, why not allow them to come to Russia or America? "No. That is my property." What is this philosophy? A father's property, everyone has got right to enjoy the father's property. Can this rascal Marx propose communism on this basis? The animals should be slaughtered. Do the father like that if this son is useless, it cannot do any service, so another big son says, "I'll finish him"? The father will like that? So where is that communism? All selfish motive. That's all. Rascal. And devils citing scripture, philosophy. Rascal citing philosophy. He's a rascal. Let him accept that God is... First of all his business is "No God." His only business is "No God." First of all, mother, father is not needed, that's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        432458

Prabhupāda: That you do, and suffer(?). (in car) God is the father, and father's property is this whole world. We are all sons, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, and father's property lets us enjoy equally. That's all. All questions are solved.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What to do with the greedy people in the world, though?

Prabhupāda: Greedy because you are meant to..., because you don't recognize father and father's property, you have created the situation.

Hari-śauri: Because they don't know who the proprietor is, they're thinking "I can take this for myself."

Prabhupāda: Therefore America has so much over-production. Let the hungry men come here. Greediness is not allowed. Whatever... Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. This is śāstra. Everything belongs to God. Whatever He allots to you, you take it. In the family the father says, "My dear boy, take of this." That's all. Why should he claim more? The father knows how much he'll eat, and He'll give it. He's supplying the elephant his food, the ant his food. Elephant's not dying starvation. Why you are worried? You want to eat forty kilos. All right. Take it. The father is able to supply. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's supplying everyone.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...not a practical solution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the knowledge, real knowledge. Eight million, four hundred thousand forms of life, and the supreme father is supplying food to everyone. And each form millions, millions. You'll find millions of one type of fish within the water. And there are nine hundred thousand different forms of fishes. They are eating within this water. Who is supplying them food? We cannot imagine even what is the food there within the water. But there is. Otherwise, how they are living? They have no scarcity.

Hari-śauri: Neither there's any overpopulation either.

Prabhupāda: Neither. Overpopulation, the fish, they lay eggs hundreds and thousands at a time. You know that? There is not..., unlimited number of eggs they lay down. (break) ...say, "Your food is ready. Just little work." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Just produce food grain. Everyone will be happy. But why they are producing motorcars only?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they can go to the market and get the food. So they can drive to the market.

Prabhupāda: Why market? You can produce your food at home.

Hari-śauri: They have so much land, and then they grow a crop that they don't need...

Prabhupāda: I have estimated if land lying vacant, if they used for farming, producing food, ten times as many people can be fed. There is no question of scarcity. Your American government, "Oh, don't produce, don't produce, don't produce." If they'll produce more, "I'll throw it in the sea." Produce motorcar. Produce (indistinct), 1967 model. Don't produce foodgrains. This is government's position. Don't produce foodgrains, produce 1967 motorcar, so that there may be more and more accidents.

Hari-śauri: They pay the farmers not to grow crops.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) There are so many people starving, they have no land to produce food. Therefore the Supreme Father has to be accepted.

Hari-śauri: Just like when we were in Fiji, all they grow is sugarcane so they have to sell the sugarcane to get money to buy crops that they could have grown there in the first place.

Prabhupāda: Yes, business. Why so much sugarcane? The islands of Hawaii, they grow more sugarcane. We have seen all the islands. Huge (indistinct). The sugarcane is required for manufacturing wine. (break) ...drink tea. He's much (indistinct) of sugar, and from molasses, they manufacture wine. Unnecessary things. Misadjustment and they're (indistinct).

Hari-śauri: Even when they try to grow the grains, they can't guarantee it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: Like in Russia, they projected they would grow so much grains...

Prabhupāda: Nature will punish them. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. Nature is Lord's (indistinct) maintainer, he's observing, factually. (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Excuse me. Just like, say, America takes up this idea, that God is the Supreme Father and...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say (indistinct) God in trust.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We trust. Justice. Don't trust blindly. Try to understand what is God. That I am... Later on, I have not received any reply.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not yet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He, American people (indistinct) say, "In God we trust." That's very nice, but why you take this philosophy blindly? Find out who is God and why you should trust. That is intelligence. The slogan is nice, why don't you fight on this issue? The Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement. You can fight on this issue. Intelligently, if we'll put (indistinct). We trust in God, but what is God? Eh? Hayagrīva? They like to trust in God. Then ask them what is God. They cannot reply.

Hayagrīva: They would say the Christian conception of God.

Prabhupāda: Any conception, God is not Christian, not Hindu, not...

Hayagrīva: They would say, "God is the Almighty Power."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. (end)

 

Interview with Reporter                               Los Angeles, June 4, 1976                                                         433135

Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?

Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.

Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?

Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.

 

Morning Walk                                               Los Angeles, June 5, 1976                                                         433742

Prabhupāda: They thought "It is very nice, the Swamiji preaching about God." (break) So don't read newspaper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Don't read newspaper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. (laughter) Another smash.

Prabhupāda: So many don'ts, add one another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't read newspapers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then next they'll make so much propaganda against you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should do that. Whenever we preach to anyone and we tell them, I tell them that I have not gone to the movie house for ten years, they say "Oh, how horrible! Inhuman!" (laughter)

Rādhāvallabha: If we tell them not to read the newspapers, they'll think we're telling them to stop breathing.

Prabhupāda: They..., don't read, you say "I am not reading any other literatures." Just like you say that "I have not gone to cinema house." It is another way of saying that "Don't go to cinema."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christian missionary was trying to convert the people; so they would not listen. But then when he told that, ah...

Hṛdayānanda: In hell there are no newspapers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In hell there are no newspapers, they went, "Oh!" (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Trivikrama: Coal miners.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, coal miners.

Prabhupāda: No newspaper, it is horrible. Ask the health department of government, that "You write on the cigarette box: 'It is injurious.' " What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are preaching that; give us some money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're helping them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, intoxication. And see practically, at least take some certificate from the health.

Hṛdayānanda: If they find out that the solution is with God, they would rather have the disease.

Prabhupāda: Apart from God, see practically.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 6, 1976, Los Angeles                                                         434069

Rāmeśvara: I was thinking yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that as our movement becomes greater and greater, then taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam at a restaurant or at our Sunday feast will be like a national pastime.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone in the country.

Prabhupāda: And the Rathayātrā also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it will be like going to the ball game.

Prabhupāda: Rathayātrā, introduce in every city. You have already got some national holiday?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You'll get everywhere. In this way, one day we'll capture the whole government, and you'll become the president.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: You said Balavanta.

Prabhupāda: Balavanta may be his secretary. He can.... (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was told you once said that he would be in the White House before he's forty years old.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, I did not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was only to encourage him.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, to encourage him. Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: If you bring public in your favor, it is not difficult.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You have to bring them in your favor.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "A Kṛṣṇa conscious man. He's a Kṛṣṇa conscious man. Give him vote." This opinion. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will happen gradually.

Rāmeśvara: One day our men will be leaders of government?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Leaders means as soon as you make the public in your favor, you are leader.

Rāmeśvara: But they'll actually manage the government?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. The Kurukṣetra battle was for this purpose. The Pāṇòavas should be on the throne, not the Duryodhana. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All round, not that we're simply chanting. We're fighting also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arjuna monks.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a nice experience...

Prabhupāda: All-round.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in Berkeley, when we started to fight...

Prabhupāda: They may not misunderstand us that we are...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pacifists.

Prabhupāda: Pacifists, or a sect of religious faith. We want to remold, remodel everything.

Hari-śauri: That's something we have to get out of their heads, that we're just some kind of select sect or something.

Prabhupāda: That they'll understand as they read our books. That we are all-round reformer.

Rāmeśvara: They have created so many problems, that to manage their government is the biggest headache.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They've created so many problems to solve. (apparently reading sign) (pause)

Prabhupāda: South Pacific Railway? ISKCON government means this, stop all these four things. No slaughterhouse, close. The meat-eaters may become agitated, they may complain, "No, you are not forbidden to eat, you can eat, but slaughter in your house."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural death.

Prabhupāda: The government is not going to maintain slaughterhouse, that's all. We don't forbid you; you can do at your home.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The cows will die one day from old age, then they can eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like to eat, the dead cow. Just like you are eating...(break) (end)

 

Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished.

 

Thinking of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage.

 

That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now?

…And without being rich, if you think all this nonsense, you're spoiling time.

 

...from the ground. So the tree is the son, and the earth is the mother. So what is the wrong argument there? We have got experience that a child is coming from the womb of the mother. So why we should suggest a nonsense creation, that there was a chunk and there was a creation? What is this? Talk on this point.

 

...culture and civilization is being introduced by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole human society. The modern civilization is not civilization.

 

Reporter: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?

 

They are trying to solve one problem, but creating another hundreds of problems.

Kīrtanānanda: So village life is best.

Prabhupāda: That is the best life. That you develop. It will be an ideal thing. You haven't got to go office fifty miles off. Just get little vegetables and milk, bas, your problem is solved. It is practical. Why you should go fifty miles off?

 

I am also thinking of their fresh vegetables and fresh milk. (devotees laugh) Which is not avail...

…All fresh vegetable, fresh milk, this is celestial. Who has got the opportunity in the city? Automatically.

 

So the modern civilization, there is no program for peaceful, happy life.

 

…barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animals, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk...? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization.

 

It is very difficult to.... Sarva-dharmān--everything to give up, except Kṛṣṇa. It is very difficult. …Varṇāśrama, even varṇāśrama-dharma one has to give up.

 

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...

Prabhupāda: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.

And here, the same girl, I do not give her any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they're satisfied. It is practical.

 

Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules.

 

There is no first-class men. All fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class men. If one has got money, then he's all right. That is Kali-yuga. No qualification…Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required.

 

Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body--the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And, at the present moment, there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain.

 

Who can live without milk? And who has not taken cow's milk? Immediately, in the morning, you require milk. And the animal, she's supplying milk, she's not mother? What is the sense? Mother-killing civilization. And they want to be happy.

 

So develop it nicely. (break) ...fruit and flower trees. Mango trees, all fruits, banana, papaya, jackfruit, apple, guava...

 

Let everyone maintain the cows for taking milk. And when it dies, you take it, you meat-eaters. Make that arrangement.

 

Yes, increase farm projects. It is very nice project. Self-dependent. Very good. Kṛṣṇa personally, He lived in village, farm, cows, calves, land, Govardhana Hill. It is very nice. Land, in America, you have got so much land. Produce vegetable, grains, milk, eat sumptuously, no economic question.

 

Ideal. Let there be an ideal section, our people, our men. And do your personal advancement. But that much.... If people come, it's all right. Otherwise, we must make our own life successful.

                                                                                                                                     

If we get this land we can cultivate some grains, foodstuff. On account of this water facility you can grow so many things, vegetables, fruits, foodgrains, very nice. Keep cows. (break) Industrial civilization will fail. They are manufacturing simply cars. The time is approaching very swiftly when there will be no more demand for cars...

Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car?

 

Every morning, this place should be washed with water. Then it will be very nice. Then we can sit down and chant all day and night, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Haridāsa Öhākura was doing that. But don't imitate. But I mean to say, if you do that, where is the problem? (break) ...I think you can acquire some land through the government for agriculture and cow protection. There are so many, so much vacant land. I think they will accept community proposal.

 

...Prabhupāda, you mentioned that soon there will not be so much use for automobiles. What will be our means of spreading the saìkīrtana movement?

Prabhupāda: We shall walk. You'll have good exercise.

 

So everything material has got a period of development, then it dwindles, and then finishes. So from this nature's law, we can see this motorcar attraction, utility, it will finish. It will not stay.

 

There may be offense. You should go on chanting. That will be adjusted as you advance in chanting. Harer nāma harer nāma, harer nāma eva kevalam. Simply go on chanting. We shall see later on what is offense and not offense. (laughter)

 

 So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man. Because he has no culture.

…So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything..." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required.

 

So food problem can be solved simply by accepting.... That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. How everyone can.... Find out.

…So if you produce enough food grains, both the man and the animal will live very peacefully. Food grains.

 

If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes.

 

If you remain to your principles, you can make the whole world your disciple.

 

So money cannot solve the problems. That is not possible…So why you cannot write propaganda? You should. You are preaching. You must meet them and must convince them that simply getting money is not the solution of the problem. (microphone rattling) That you have to convince.

                                                                             Sato vṛtteḥ, you must be honest.

 

But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety.

 

Milk is the best food... No, it may be there are so many other foods, but cent percent of the human society, everyone, has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother.

 

Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world.

Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We must make our own life successful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY ONE

Morning Walk                                              June 7, 1976, Los Angeles                                                         434106

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...widespread, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very widespread. Now I'm afraid about it being in New York, because one of the leaders has been.... I just found out that he's one of the leaders. He's been in New York for about three weeks on his way to London, and he's a pūj..., he has his own Deities which he has on the altar, which means he's talking to our pūjārīs. I am, I have to get back there as soon as possible to see. They have like a newsletter they send out all over the world.

Rāmeśvara: They mail it out?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, well it's a bunch of notes they mail out on a regular basis. It's really poisonous. Pradyumna has been investigating. He got a bunch of their notes photocopied. The one thing I've noticed about the people that are involved with this, two features I particularly have noticed. One of them is that they don't go out on saìkīrtana. Everyone I've seen...

Prabhupāda: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiyā party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-praṇālī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, siddha-praṇālī?

Prabhupāda: Siddha-praṇālī is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-praṇālī.

Rāmeśvara: (break) ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some very strange notes. You should see those notes.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, I've read them all already.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You did?

Prabhupāda: They have learned it from these Rādhā-kuṇòa bābājīs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā-kuṇòa bābājīs?

Prabhupāda: Bābājīs, yes. After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say.

Rāmeśvara: The dangerous thing is that they are using your book for authority.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Authority, where? What is that? That I've already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya Mahāprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take. They'll take the Rādhārāṇī's bhāva. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching by His practical life, that we have to take.

Rāmeśvara: There is one statement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, regarding devotional service in a reverential mood. So they have found some quote, they are quoting, that this reverential devotional service is an impediment towards developing pure love.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another place they quote that regulative principles are a hindrance on the path. Because there's a statement that I think Yāmunācārya says.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a statement somewhere in one of your books that when one attains the highest platform...

Prabhupāda: Then where is that highest platform?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's no question of it.

Rāmeśvara: One must go through stages.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: You gave the example of trying to get an M.A. degree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to come to that highest stage. It is not forbidden. That may be ideal, but not for the neophytes. You must.... One who does not know ABCD, what he will know about M.A. degrees? That they do not know. They think that they have already passed M.A. degree. That is their fault.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another statement, I saw them, where it says, it's a quote, that you can treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover and Kṛṣṇa will reciprocate.

Hari-śauri: And they underlined the two words "you can" treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover. In this way they're taking your quotes out of context.

Rāmeśvara: This is one of their main, the main ideas in their philosophy is that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Rāmeśvara: Deserve then desire, oh.

Prabhupāda: You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to high court judge. What is this nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: But then they have an answer.

Prabhupāda: What is that answer?

Rāmeśvara: That "Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..."

Prabhupāda: How you can try it? First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer. Then you become high court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and biòi and you want to be associated with the gopīs.

Rāmeśvara: They say that "In ISKCON, we do not..."

Prabhupāda: Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. Sahajiyā bābājīs, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's about forty of them in this temple. Fifty. There's fifty of them in this temple, Prabhupāda.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, really?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: A women's group and a men's group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a women's group with about twenty-five or thirty.

Hari-śauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopīs with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Then let them.... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out.

Rāmeśvara: They are following.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiyā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the meaning of sahajiyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's on their minds.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're frustrated.

Prabhupāda: We are restricting, "No illicit sex." They will put that "Here is illicit sex between the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can also do it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Breaking the principles.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Because sādhana-bhakti is a gradual process, they immediately want the highest perfection quickly.

Prabhupāda: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rāsa-līlā, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rāsa-līlā is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our.... "Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. And become a gopī. It is very good to aspire to become high court judge, but how you can become high court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high court judge.

Rāmeśvara: They say Ajāmila had no qualification and he just chanted.

Prabhupāda: Ajāmila had no qualification. Therefore they should have no qualification.

Rāmeśvara: They say...

Prabhupāda: They say. Now you accept them as authority, "They say." What is they? What they are?

Rāmeśvara: Ajāmila's qualification was he thought of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot think.

Rāmeśvara: They want to think of the gopīs at the time of death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then practice.

Prabhupāda: What they will think of at the death, why you are conjecturing now? Their habits are rascal, they're making pregnant, illicit sex, what they will think? Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not going to do that.

Prabhupāda: Or they should be separated. Otherwise, it will be bad example, and all restrictions will be broken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they don't change their mentality, then they should live separately, do their own society.

Prabhupāda: And they'll do that. (japa) That sahajiyā tendency is very easy to take up.

Hari-śauri: It seems like it's an inherent thing in...

Prabhupāda: Thinking of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I could never understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why, I was always wondering why in all of your books you're always blasting so much time on the sahajiyās, and I was not.... Now I see why, because the tendency is so easy. I could never, I'd always think, "Why is Prabhupāda saying so much? Because they're only in India."

Rāmeśvara: He's thinking that this is a small group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in India, but now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why Prabhupāda was stressing.

Rāmeśvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiyā tendency.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why it's in every book Prabhupāda speaks about it without fail.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, keep your movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I always remember that you said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural. Of course we don't want to lose men, but it's natural.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the devotee is in the original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, his siddha-deha, why is it that he sometimes changes his original rasa with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: Each one of us has an original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, some as plant, some as tree, some as cow, some as cowherd boy. So if that is re-established, why should the devotee desire to change it?

Prabhupāda: Well, that is spiritual kingdom. You can change if you like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not static, Prabhupāda once explained. Love is not static.

Prabhupāda: Generally, it is not changed. Just like mother Yaśodā, she's mother all the time, eternally.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question came in Bombay two or three years ago. Prabhupāda said that it is not static. You can have (inaudible).

Hari-śauri: I always understood before that the rasa was fixed, but that within that rasa one may take different..., one may take a different line.

Prabhupāda: That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now?

Rāmeśvara: That's the point.

Prabhupāda: A patient is thinking, "How shall I dance when I become healthy?" First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that. You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. "When I will get rich, how I shall treat.... I shall.... Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this," (laughter) and as soon as he kicked on the earthen pots, all broken. Then he, "Oh, then my.... All prospects have gone." You know this story?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was in the pot?

Prabhupāda: That.... A potter, potter boy, he had got some earthen pots selling. So he was dreaming, that "By selling this earthen pot, I'll make so much profit. Then I shall purchase another batch, I shall make profit. In this way, I shall be millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife must be very obedient. Otherwise I shall kick." So in this way, he kicked over the pots and (laughs) all of them broken.

Rāmeśvara: And in the end, nothing.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Devotee: So by his dreaming he, he...

Prabhupāda: Yes, first of all be rich man, then do all things, how you shall kick your wife. This is going on. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "My Guru Mahārāja found Me rascal number one; therefore he ordered, 'You cannot study Vedānta. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " They will not read this portion. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He posed Himself as a rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they prefer to read about all the ecstatic symptoms on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That.... Be, first of all bona fide. That is good ambition. But how this good ambition can fulfill when you are a potter, poor man? Actually be rich, and then kick your wife. And without being rich, if you think all this nonsense, you're spoiling time. (japa)

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we're talking so much about the business of how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we're not talking enough about Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, kṛṣṇa-kathā, they say. So that's another reason why they want to read all these pastimes.

Prabhupāda: Then let them read. What kind of kṛṣṇa-kathā? The kṛṣṇa-kathā test is as soon as he'll get the taste, he'll lose this taste. That is the.... What is this nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: Won't it purify them? That's what they say, "It will purify me."

Prabhupāda: What you are purified? You have become a, what is called, putrefied, not purified.

Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Rāmeśvara: You can become purified, and sometimes you can increase your...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You can read. Be purified. You can read. But where is your purification?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Putrefaction.

Prabhupāda: The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. (break) In 1935, our Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Öhākura, he went to Rādhā-kuṇòa for kārttika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upaniṣads. So first of all, these bābājīs they were coming. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī had come at Rādhā-kuṇòa. He's giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upaniṣads, they stopped coming. They saw: "They are jïānīs, they are not bhaktas."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did they want to hear? Daśama-skandha?

Prabhupāda: Like that. So Prabhupāda condemned them that "They are not living in Rādhā-kuṇòa. They're living in Naraka-kuṇòa." I heard it, "They're living in Naraka-kuṇòa."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So our men who go to Rādhā-kuṇòa and live there...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They're risking living in Naraka-kuṇòa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Rādhā-kuṇòa. Do not try to jump over like a monkey.

Rādhāvallabha: (break) The scientists have found some more brass pottery. So now they say that man first started using brass around thirty-five hundred years ago. They've announced this to the world.

Prabhupāda: Now they're not using?

Rādhāvallabha: No, they say that thirty-five hundred years ago is when man first started using brass. They've announced this to the world.

Prabhupāda: What we have to take lesson from this, huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still using it now. Does that mean man is still...

Rāmeśvara: They are convinced that man used to live in caves, and just recently he has been civilized.

Prabhupāda: So what is the effect of civilization? When they used to live in cave, they were hunting animals and eating. So you are doing the same thing. What civilization?

Hari-śauri: Except they're doing it on a bigger scale now.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that it would not be possible for them to find the remains of the bodies of the Aryans because they would burn their bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: So they only find the bodies of the lower class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they only find the remains of the cave dwellers.

Mahendra: Also you've said that now they're headed back to caves to hide. By the end of Kali-yuga many will live in caves.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now there are people living in caves.

Hari-śauri: They were living in caves then, and now they are living in pigeon holes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhāvallabha: There was another article in the magazine that was talking about rats in India. This article was talking about rats in India.

Prabhupāda: Rats?

Rādhāvallabha: Yes, they said how there's a big problem. There's too many rats. And at the end of the article they made a sly comment about how many people considered the rats sacred. So this is a big problem. Whenever they make some report about India, they always make some joke about how the people will think the animals are sacred and how this is actually the real problem.

Prabhupāda: So why do they not go and eat the rats? Then why these people do not go there and eat the sacred rats? Please go there and eat the sacred rats. (laughter) Because you are expert in eating animals, so go and eat the sacred rats. lndia is a good field, and clear their problems. You write one article and send them. It is a good opportunity for the animal eaters to go to India and eat the rats, sacred rats, and solve their problems. (laughter)

Mahendra: It won't even cost anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes, free. They can take them free.

Åṣabhadeva: They said one of the main reasons is because they are killing the snakes for the skin, the snakes that feed on the rats. They kill so many snakes to get the skin, therefore there's no way to control the rat population.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is saved for you. Go and take it.

Mahendra: They wear the snakes and eat the rats.

Prabhupāda: Snake will die of starvation. It is better. You go and eat.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Egypt, they have been able to dig underneath the ground and find the remains of ancient cities. So this is proof of the ancient civilization of Egypt. But they have not found ancient ruins of the cities of Dvārakā or Hastināpura. They do not have such...

Rādhāvallabha: There are ruins in Dvārakā.

Rāmeśvara: So they do not accept that the ancient civilization of India is old, very old.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I read one anthropology book, and it said that about 3,500 years ago in India people were only living in all the caves, and they were simply using stones and things like that, very primitive tools. No knowledge at all.

Mahendra: But they cannot explain how it was that these people evolved, these cavemen evolved such a language as Sanskrit, which not even the greatest scholar today can even begin to comprehend. It is a very great language.

Prabhupāda: That is their grudge. When they see such exalted literature, they are envious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we cut over?

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, we can walk over this way? There's no water.

Prabhupāda: It was all manufactured by the Britishers. To keep their faith with other nations, they were protesting that "Why you are keeping India dependent?" So they were pleading that "We are making India civilized." That was their propaganda.

Rāmeśvara: "The white man's burden," they called it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (pause) Prabhupāda, wherever you walk, the water turns off.

Candanācārya: The entire Golden Gate park was cultivated by men.

Rādhāvallabha: Instead of planting grass by the roads, they are now putting green rocks. They figure it looks the same, and it saves money.

Kīrtirāja: They are also planting plastic grass in the middle of the road.

Hṛdayānanda: No opulence.

Rādhāvallabha: In Russia now they have declared one..., that it is a big crisis. Because their grains did not grow properly, they are not able to produce as much meat, so now one day a week everyone is forced to eat fish. So they are lamenting. They were describing how..., about the good old days were when you could go and buy an entire carcass.

Candanācārya: (break) ...country, build cities and then spend billions of dollars to make the city look like the country.

Prabhupāda: Carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed, again and again. This is their position. (japa) (break)

Rāmeśvara: On the calendar it says it is Bhīma-ekādaśī.

Prabhupāda: Bhīma-ekādaśī, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So I've been told that if one fasts on Bhīma-ekādaśī, that it is like fasting on all the ekādaśīs. Is that true?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ekādaśī is meant for fasting, either Bhīma or Arjuna. But we cannot fast, therefore we have to take little fruits and.... Otherwise, ekādaśī means fasting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If it is possible, should we go without eating at all?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But don't lie down and sleep.

Mahendra: Eating mahā-prasādam is also fasting.

Prabhupāda: Who says?

Mahendra: You said that to Paramahaṁsa Swami once.

Prabhupāda: And you heard from Paramahaṁsa.

Mahendra: No, I was in the room. It was when he was trying to observe Caturmāsya.

Prabhupāda: I never said that.

Mahendra: Oh, okay, I must have heard wrong.

Prabhupāda: If there is service and, on my fasting, service will be stopped, then I can take. First consideration, service. Now if somebody feels weak, he can take mahā-prasāda, render service.

                                                                                                                                                                        434336

Prabhupāda: ...to the USA, many sahajiyas, they requested me, "Sir, why you are going? You are in Vṛndāvana. Continue your bhajana. What is the use of preaching?"

Rāmeśvara: What is the use of preaching?

Prabhupāda: Preaching. They advised me like that.

Rāmeśvara: They don't believe in Lord Caitanya, these sahajiyās in Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Mostly. They have no knowledge. Material. Prākṛta-sahajiyā. Their real name is prākṛta. Their thoughts are on this material platform. Just as they are preferring this conjugal love because here the sex is prominent. They are thinking that is the highest stage. What is the lowest stage here, they're taking that as the highest stage. In the.... Of course, in the spiritual world there is such thing, but as Kṛṣṇa has many other līlās, why they are not attracted to other līlās?

Rāmeśvara: They don't want to be limited. They think that Kṛṣṇa is the kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So why...

Prabhupāda: That is good. That is always true, but Kṛṣṇa says,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

How you have understood Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "Out of many millions of people, one becomes siddha, and out of many millions of siddhas, hardly one can understand Me." So how you have understood Kṛṣṇa so easily, within two years? What you have understood Kṛṣṇa, that is materially understood. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is prākṛta-sahajiyā. "Oh, we have understood. Kṛṣṇa was a playboy, dancing with His girls. Bas, we have understood. Now we shall..."

Rāmeśvara: "If I follow the regulative principles and go on hearing about rāsa-līlā, then I'll be purified."

Prabhupāda: You say that. In the śāstra does not say. Śāstra says that after you have studied all the nine cantos of Bhāgavatam, then enter into the tenth. Sahajiyā means they take very easily. "I am.... Everything is all right. Now I am perfect." That is sahajiyā. Kṛṣṇa says, "To understand Me, it will take millions of years." And they understand Kṛṣṇa immediately. That is their.... That is called prākṛta-sahajiyā.

Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is to attract the living entities to Kṛṣṇa. So let me read about rāsa-līlā, because I'm feeling some attraction.

Prabhupāda: Then why not Kurukṣetra-līlā? What...? Kurukṣetra-līlā... Kṛṣṇa's līlā is the same, absolute. You are attracted to rāsa-līlā means you have got sex desire. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: I may still have sex desire, but this will purify me.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. This will purify. You are not purified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Putrefied.

Prabhupāda: That is.... The, this rāsa-līlā is for the person who is completely purified. What...? When one is impure, he should not think of. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam.

Rāmeśvara: In this they have misunderstood your Kṛṣṇa book.

Prabhupāda: They must have misunderstood. They are all rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have not even read carefully the First Canto Bhāgavatam and Second. Prabhupāda says in Second Canto, "Look at the lotus feet of the Lord."

Hari-śauri: I was thinking yesterday that must be one of the problems, that these people have not read your earlier books, the earlier cantos of the Bhāgavatam. Because it says, you express quite clearly to avoid the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were lucky because when we joined all that we had were your Bhāgavatams from India, those original Bhāgavatams.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...otherwise...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, what shall we do?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, they are finished.

Rāmeśvara: We should try to save them.

 

Morning Walk                                               June 8, 1976, Los angeles                                                         434499

Prabhupāda: ...from the ground. So the tree is the son, and the earth is the mother. So what is the wrong argument there? We have got experience that a child is coming from the womb of the mother. So why we should suggest a nonsense creation, that there was a chunk and there was a creation? What is this? Talk on this point. Where is your experience that all of a sudden a chunk dropped and there was creation? We have got experience that creation is there. Mother is there, and a child is coming. This is the creation. So wherefrom this idea comes, that without father and mother, creation is possible? What is his argument? He is great scientist. Let him...

Hṛdayānanda: Chief rascal.

Rādhāvallabha: They say that nature takes care of it all.

Prabhupāda: What? Then why nature did not take care of you? (laughter) Therefore you are rascal.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The trees, they produce seeds, and the seed drops on the ground, and than another tree comes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right,

Rāmeśvara: There's no father. Simply...

Prabhupāda: There is no father. That I understand. But the tree is coming from the earth. So that is in anywhere. Just like the father gives the seed in the womb of the mother, and she produces the body and it comes out. The seed is coming from the father. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: bījo'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. The seed comes from the father, that you cannot deny. Mother, without seed, cannot be pregnant and cannot give child. That is our experience. Nature is mother, and the seed is given by the father.

 

Garden Conversation                                     June 8, 1976, Los Angeles                                                        434486

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's representative means the representative says the same thing as Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says "Surrender unto Me," and the representative says "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." And because he delivers the real knowledge, he's as good as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. The spiritual master may appear to be just like a common man, but he is to be respected as God, because he delivers the real message of God. That is the qualification of spiritual master. He does not manufacture anything. That is very easy. If I carry your message and educate people in that way, then there is no difficulty for me. Everything is there. Why shall I go to manufacture something imperfect? The perfect thing is already there. Simply I have to carry. A post peon--the money order is there, he has to simply carry and deliver to the person. And if he gets at time of need, he thanks the peon, "Oh, you have saved my life." It is like that. The message is already there. You have to simply deliver to the suffering humanity. Then he'll be relieved. And because he delivers the real reality, therefore he's worshiped as God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Ācāryaṁ māṁ hi vijānīyāt. Kṛṣṇa also says ācārya is..., "I am ācārya." Because when there is, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ.

Hṛdayānanda: Read it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hṛdayānanda:

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupāda: Who? Who delivers this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if from the government some very confidential secretary comes, you have to receive him just like the president, to please him. So this is the qualification of spiritual master, that he delivers things at it is. He does not make any adulteration. Then he is real representative, and he is to be accepted as God Himself. That is the process. Because here it is said na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu. You have got a son, and if I love the son.... There is an English word: "If you love me, love my dog." So the spiritual master is dog-God. He's dog of God, therefore he's dog-God. He's to be worshiped. He's the pet dog of God. Therefore if you love the dog, you love God. Spiritual master will not claim that "I am God," but it is our duty, because the dog is pet.... Here it is said, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu. You have to love that dog. Then you'll get perfection. This is the secret.                              yasya deve parā bhaktir

                                                                              yathā deve tathā gurau

                                                                             tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

                                                                              prakāśante mahātmanaḥ…So...?

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                June 9, 1976, Los Angeles                                                        435043

Prabhupāda: (break)....culture and civilization is being introduced by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole human society. The modern civilization is not civilization. Mūòhā nābhijānāti; mām eva param avyayam. Ninety-nine percent or ninety-nine point nine percent people do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: In India people believe.

Prabhupāda: No, India believes. India have no authority.

Hṛdayānanda: I think now there is.... People are becoming more interested in this theory. They say theory. I think there is more interest now. I'm talking to common people. They're...

Prabhupāda: So if there is next life--they believe--then what they are doing for the next life?

Rāmeśvara: The Christians only believe in one life, and after that one life you either go to heaven or to hell forever.

Hṛdayānanda: For that reason people have rejected Christianity, because they cannot explain, for example, why a child, for example, is being killed. He's innocent. But by our philosophy it can be explained. For that, people, intelligent people...

Prabhupāda: Christian religion is speculation. All these philosophers, talking on Christian religion, speculating.... No clear idea.

Room Conversation(2)                                   June 9, 1976, Los Angeles                                                        435163

Prabhupāda: (break) ...can have so many engagements. Simply by making dress, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by cooking, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by cleansing the floor, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Easiest method. Everyone can remain Kṛṣṇa conscious in any circumstance. Ahaituky apratihatā. It is not condition that "You have to become like this; then you'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious." No. In whatever position you are, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No extra intelligence required. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛìgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Either you dress the Deity or you cleanse the floor of the temple, the same thing. You get the result the same. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Anything you do. Somebody is cleansing, somebody is chanting, somebody is cooking, somebody is printing, somebody is selling books--everything is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And that is the best yoga. Sa me yuktatamo mataḥ. Yoginām api sarveṣām: "Of all the yogis, who is thinking of Me, always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is the topmost yogi." "By meditation I am trying to become God. By meditation one can become God." This is their foolish theory. Kṛṣṇa, when He exhibited His godly power at the age of three months, where was meditation? (laughs) God is always God. You cannot become by meditation God. You can become godly; that is possible

 

Morning Walk                                              June 10, 1976, Los Angeles                                                       435684

Rādhāvallabha: They told us in school that in India there are so many people, practically you cannot even move. But when we go to India we see there is miles and miles of empty land, simply a few cities where it's crowded.

Prabhupāda: Cities are crowded. Village? Very nice. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        435703

Trivikrama: And here also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the ocean, they're surfing, extreme cold.

Rādhāvallabha: It's so cold that they sit on the water and they just tremble.

Prabhupāda: That is also another punishment, voluntary..

 

Magazine Interview                                     June 10, 1976, Los Angeles                                                         435585

Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?

Rāmeśvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future.

Prabhupāda: They will guide. I am training them.

Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though?

Prabhupāda: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.

Rāmeśvara: His personal secretaries.

Interviewer: I see.

Rāmeśvara: To see that the original teachings that Prabhupāda has given are not in any way changed.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                Los Angeles, June 10, 1976                                                         435938

śokāgninā sakala-yoniṣu dahyamānaḥ

duḥkhauṣadhaṁ tad api duḥkham atad-dhiyāhaṁ

bhūman bhramāmi vada me tava dāsya-yogam

"O great one, O Supreme Lord, because of combination with pleasing and displeasing circumstances and because of separation from them, one is placed in a most regrettable position, within heavenly or hellish planets, as if burning in a fire of lamentation. Although there are many remedies by which to get out of miserable life, any such remedies in the material world are more miserable than the miseries themselves."

Prabhupāda: Just see (laughs). You want to mitigate some misery, and the process is still more miserable. Is it not?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are trying to solve one problem, but creating another hundreds of problems.

Bharadvāja: What are some of the examples?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bharadvāja: What is some example of that?

Prabhupāda: Just like you create a motorcar for easy transportation, and you have experience: the power problem, the accident problem. If there is no power problem, you get more petrol, and you commit more accidents. And you stop car, then you are unable to move, because you now you have created city. If you want to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles from your residence. You require doctor, but because you have now car, you have big, big roads. So your doctor, medical consultant, is living thirty miles off. So you have to ride on cars to go to the market, to go to the office, to go to the medical man. So car is required. And as soon as car is there, the accident is there, and there is, power shortage is there, you require big, big roads, so on, so on, so on.

Hari-śauri: Pollution.

Prabhupāda: So where is the solution of your problems? It has created more problems.

Kīrtanānanda: So village life is best.

Prabhupāda: That is the best life. That you develop. It will be an ideal thing. You haven't got to go office fifty miles off. Just get little vegetables and milk, bas, your problem is solved. It is practical. Why you should go fifty miles off?

Rādhā-vallabha: In New York, to go to work, they go into the subway car, and there are so many people...

Prabhupāda: That... Not only, the ferry, steamer, bus, train, subway, cars, there are so many things. I've seen it. They start for going to the office early in the morning, and they come back at eleven o'clock at night. And few hours, that is their family life. And that hours are wasted by sleeping and by sex. This is their life. And to forget all these miserable conditions, drink. This is civilization.

Hṛdayānanda: Horrible.

Rādhā-vallabha: My father used to get up very early in the morning to go to work, and he would be so tired from going to work, as soon as he got home, he would just eat and immediately fall asleep. I'd ask him why he was working so hard, he would say, "Simply to support the children." But now he has no more wife, no more children, and he's still working the same.

Prabhupāda: Horrible civilization. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rādhā-vallabha: They say they have no time.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) All right, come to New Vrindaban, we shall give you food. That they won't come.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have to work.

Devotee: They are afraid of nature.

Kīrtanānanda: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm going back tonight.

Prabhupāda: Why so soon?

Kīrtanānanda: To get ready for your coming.

Rādhā-vallabha: I think that's all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rādhā-vallabha: I think all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of is when you are coming.

Prabhupāda: I am also thinking of their fresh vegetables and fresh milk. (devotees laugh) Which is not avail...

Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came out, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came? You walked up the road. Our car, we tried to take you in the car, but it didn't work, it broke. Power wagon.

Kīrtanānanda: It got stuck.

Prabhupāda: All fresh vegetable, fresh milk, this is celestial. Who has got the opportunity in the city? Automatically.

 

Garden Conversation                                     Los AngelesJune 10, 1976                                                        435404                                  

Prabhupāda: So sleeping is waste of time. Therefore spiritual advancement means minimizing sleeping. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. About the Gosvāmīs' life it is said they conquered over nidrā-āhāra. If you eat extraordinarily, then you will sleep also extraordinarily. If you eat frugally, as much minimum required, then you can conquer over sleep. Eating, sleeping. Sleeping depends on eating. Atyāhāra. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. The people in the material world....

                                                                                                                                                                        435495

Prabhupāda: So the modern civilization, there is no program for peaceful, happy life. Things are becoming more and more problematic. Everywhere. Here our Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is asking everyone to go to his New Vrindaban. There is no problem. We have seen yesterday pictures of our New Vrindaban. There is no problem. Practical. If you can see the picture, you'll see that they have no problem. Is there any problem?

Rādhāvallabha: Sometimes there is too much milk.

Prabhupāda: (laughter) Huh? That he can send to us. Milk is so nice that it cannot be wasted, even a drop. First of all you get milk, that is the Indian system. So there is a big milk pan, and as soon as the milk is drawn it is put into the pan. The pan is in the fire. So as much as you like, drink milk, children, elderly persons. Then at night, when there is no demand for milk, it is converted into yogurt, not wasted. Whatever balance milk is there is converted into yogurt. Then in daytime also you take yogurt, as much as you like. If it is not all consumed, then it is stored in a pot. Then when that pot is enough stored, then you churn it. Churn it, and you get butter and the, what is called? Buttermilk. So again you take buttermilk with cāpāṭi and everything, not a single drop is lost. Then the butter, you melt it, convert into ghee and store it, it will stay for years. So not a drop of milk can be wasted. And this butter, because in the village they are eating so much milk products, they do not require butter or ghee. Maybe little, so that is stored. They go to the city. The city men they require, especially. Ghee is very important thing in the city. So they purchase. So in exchange of that money, whatever they want, they purchase in the city and come back. But the simply maintaining the cows, their economic problem is solved. Simply maintaining the cows. And to maintain cow there is no difficulty. The boys.... Just like Kṛṣṇa, as boy, was taking the cows, the calves, in the fields. They are grazing here and there, and coming back they're giving milk. Only one attendant required to take them into the pasturing ground and bring them back home. You don't require to give them food even. Simply take care, they give milk, and with milk you make so many preparations. Yes?

Dr. Wolfe: Last year, I drove with Svarūpa Dāmodara through Texas on the way to Atlanta, and I thought so much.... We watched those thousands and thousands of cattle, only beef cattle, only for slaughtering, not one milk cow anymore. And I was so acutely aware of what I had learned from you.

Prabhupāda: They do not know the civilized way of life. They are still barbars, called?

Devotees: Barbarians.

Prabhupāda: Barbians, ah, barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animals, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk...? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization.

Morning Walk                                               June 11, 1976, Los Angeles                                                       436453

Prabhupāda: The prisoners.... Haridāsa Öhākura was very well known, so all of them assembled and offered him respect. Haridāsa Öhākura blessed them, "Stay in this condition." (laughs) So they were surprised, that "We offered respect, and the blessing is that 'Stay in this....' " Then they were explained, " 'Stay in this condition' means your attitude to offer respect to a Vaiṣṇava." That was the intent, not that "You stay in the prison house." Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, offering respect.... (break) ...ārādhanam. When Pārvatī inquired from Lord Śiva what is the best form of worship, he advised, viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param: "Oh, to worship Lord Viṣṇu is the best form of..." Then he said, tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānāṁ samarcanam: "And greater than viṣṇor ārādhana, Viṣṇu worship, is to worship tadīyānām, anything in connection with Viṣṇu." Anything.... That is Vaiṣṇava. Just like we are worshiping tulasī, tulasī plant. Why tulasī plant? It is a plant only, not even human being. Tadīyānām. Because tulasī is liked by Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, anything in connection with Viṣṇu, to worship, that is better than Viṣṇu worship.

Kīrtanānanda: King Pratāparudra, he got the clothes of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Kīrtanānanda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu sent some cloth to King Pratāparudra, and he worshiped it just like Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Hari-śauri: Oh, I've got a handkerchief here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param.... (japa) (break) ...philosophy is very, very difficult, undoubtedly. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Therefore I wrote that poetry, that "How they'll understand?"

Kīrtanānanda: Does that mean difficult to understand or difficult to practice?

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to.... Sarva-dharmān--everything to give up, except Kṛṣṇa. It is very difficult. Sarva-dharmān. They are proud if they are little rich. And America is very proud. They are trying to accumulate money, and we are trying.... We say, "Give up this nonsense." Is it very easy thing, that "For Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall give up everything, our attempt to earn money"? Nobody will accept it. "Our industry, our trade, our opulence--everything we shall leave?" But the meaning is that. Yes. Who will take it? Jïānīs, yogis, the same thing--"Oh, I am so.... I am great yogi. So many people considers me that I am God, and I shall give up this profession?" Is it possible? Who will do it? Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a verse, eta saba chāòi' āra varṇāśrama-dharma, akiïcana haïā...(?) That's it. Varṇāśrama, even varṇāśrama-dharma one has to give up. (japa--break) ...department asked me, "Swamiji, how long you want to stay here?" (laughs) I said.... I thought that "I have got this sponsoring one month, maybe another month. So two months." I thought, "Two months is a very long duration, because I'll not be able to do anything. As soon as I will put my program, they will be: 'Go away, please.' " I was under this impression. "Let me try." That is the subject matter of the poetry, that "I have no hope. Who will accept this, especially in this country, so much engrossed in materialistic way of life? And I shall say, 'Give up everything.' Who will take it?"

Kīrtanānanda: But they have taken.

Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: That's also in the poem.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: That it is Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...the supreme mystic.

Prabhupāda: Supreme mystic.... "If You like, it is possible; otherwise not possible. From calculation it is impossible." That is the subject matter.

Kīrtanānanda: But nobody before you even tried.

Prabhupāda: They came for some money or some reputation or "England-returned." The Bon Mahārāja, this Vivekananda, and all, all these rascals who are coming, that's all. They come for some money and woman, some prestigious position, the material things. For prestigious position, for money, for women, means it is all material. They have no spiritual idea.                                                      

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Indirectly, my desire is that "Why you are wasting your time in this way? Your life is short here. Then utilize it for self-realization. What is the use of this civilization, civilization that for artificial necessities of life you waste your whole duration of life and next life you become a cat or dog? Suppose you are successful in this life manufacturing these big, big skyscrapers. Next life, if you become a cockroach in the same house, toilet room.... There is possibility." Kṛṣṇa..., tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to change your body, and there is no guarantee that you'll have to change in this type of body. Any body. The cockroach is also a body. Therefore they don't believe in the next life.

Rāmeśvara: You said they have developed so many different weapons, so they must use them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They will not waste their time making nuclear bombs and so on without using them.

Prabhupāda: That means it is ordained by God that "You have manufactured this, and use it for your destruction." That is nature's way. Film companies, these are?

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Prabhupāda: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. When the American becomes too much luxurious, they'll not be able to defend their country. Then it will be finished.

Rāmeśvara: That is the fear even now, that America has lost their fighting spirit against the Communists.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Vietnam. It is proof. When the Vietnam is attacked, American soldiers, they began to fly, flee away, became afraid. Naturally. They were not soldiers. They have no fighting spirit. By force they have been made soldiers. Let them take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. America will be saved. (japa)

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...

Prabhupāda: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.

Rāmeśvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so many houses, so I can't imagine how big this movement will be after ten thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get the government.

Rāmeśvara: The whole world will be delivered?

Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. America will be the best; people will follow. They are already following--skyscraper building, that's all. Any nation in the world, they are all aspiring to have skyscraper buildings. India has done? In Bombay?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Full of skyscraper buildings. Now they are thinking this is opulence, skyscraper building. When you are giving it up, no more skyscraper building, the others are imitating. Just like in this quarter you cannot construct skyscraper building. They don't want it. Now others are imitating: "Let us have skyscraper building like America." (japa)

Rāmeśvara: This building is only two stories, even though it has three windows.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why two story? There is ground floor, first floor, second floor, third floor.

Rāmeśvara: One of the floors has two windows, top and bottom. But it's just one floor. Someone went inside and looked.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that is not floor. There is no ceiling.

Rāmeśvara: No, just three steps up.

Prabhupāda: Anyway...

Rāmeśvara: All the instructions for the future--like you said that one day even we will have the government--how to run the government, everything is explained in your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think like that. (laughs) Is there mention, "The slaughterhouse must stopped"?

Rāmeśvara: You've given all the major policies for the future government, Kṛṣṇa consciousness government.

Prabhupāda: Let us hope. (end)

 

Interview with Jackie Vaughn (Black Congressman)      July(?) 12, 1976, Detroit                                         436615

Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Lekhaśravantī: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is black and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin--the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe. This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) So any question also?

Śrutakīrti: You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books?

Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search.

Śrutakīrti: If you have any questions you can ask him.

Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point--we're in the world and yet how can we not be a part of the world.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it?

Prabhupāda: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given, just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate--(makes sound:) cut-cut-cut-cut--at that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut. And when you can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated, but at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell. And if you move it, it will make--cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical, that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that, just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body, he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body.

Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people.

Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they.... So this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody.... This is only development of consciousness. The animals, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children, then interest extended, husband, wife, children. Then, this is family-wise. Then little advancement, of the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result, peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water in the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community, and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful.

Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow.

Prabhupāda: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow, there is English word, "Slow but sure."

Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure.

Prabhupāda: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure.

Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee:) Find out this verse.

Hari-śauri:

nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti

pratyavāyo na vidyate

svalpam apy asya dharmasya

trāyate mahato bhayāt

"In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Hari-śauri: Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent;, whereas, in material activity, without one-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (Bhāg. 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Prabhupāda: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nations--to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer?

Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why, what is the cause? What is the answer?

Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first.

Prabhupāda: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing. Pour water in the root.

Jackie Vaughn: Right.

Prabhupāda: We are correcting--Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people you write, "In God We Trust." But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In schools, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not?

Jayatīrtha: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the.... Why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the schools, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied, you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees- or a thousand rupees-worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," There is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us. Teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them.

Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and...

Prabhupāda: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare, what is called?

Jackie Vaughn: Welfare.

Prabhupāda: But still they are killing their children. Becoming more and more involved in sinful activities.

Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I would like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle.

Prabhupāda: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on. One thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything.... You ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. Why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire, so many, Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help.

Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems.

Prabhupāda: No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll

find: "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems."

Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning. We trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust."

Prabhupāda: That is only slogan.

Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right.

Prabhupāda: But if we trust somebody when we know: "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial.

Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical.

Prabhupāda: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical.

Jackie Vaughn: But it's so...

Prabhupāda: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activities. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give her any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, even you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem.... Actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, with all the constructions, perhaps it's very high.

Prabhupāda: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

Problem, māyā is problem.

Hari-śauri:

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram. Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. Another meaning of guṇa is rope. It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound. The rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bone fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul, and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only at the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' "

Prabhupāda: The institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means black also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means black also. He is following?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish.

Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful?

Prabhupāda: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in the Brahma-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāìgam. He has got one peacock feather on His head and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāìgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda, ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade--(imitates bell) dung-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly--dung-dung-dung--"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them, that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water." So that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have..." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example, you ask to the charity taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal (indistinct). At the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think?

Hari-śauri: Nobody's got any?

Prabhupāda: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God.

Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," your original statement.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that you write on your bills "In God We Trust," but who is it that knows about God? So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people.

Prabhupāda: No, I did not ask for any aid.

Hari-śauri: Oh. If they would...

Prabhupāda: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid.

Hari-śauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming Godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th.

Jackie Vaughn: Any answer?

Mādhavānanda: No reply.

Hari-śauri: That was three weeks back.

Mādhavānanda: Four weeks, over a month. May 9th. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Why they are not replying?

Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong?

Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all.

Prabhupāda: I'm not asking for money.

Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem.

Prabhupāda: Everyone.

Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol...

Prabhupāda: That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. We think "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You, the problems are so great that you cannot solve it.

Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve.

Prabhupāda: Exactly, yes.

Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history."

Prabhupāda: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā?

Hari-śauri: Very difficult to overcome.

Jackie Vaughn: I submit I contribute to that delinquency. I help them, every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature.

Prabhupāda: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No.

Jackie Vaughn: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution.

Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How is it that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa?

Hari-śauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple?

Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Oh, that's nice.

Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful.

Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come.

Jackie Vaughn: I will.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get so many inspirations. (pause) The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow.... (break)

 

Morning Walk                                                 June 13, 1976, Detroit                                                            436811

Prabhupāda: Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules.

Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is...

Prabhupāda: Then he is all right.

Devotee (2): ...above those lower levels.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why there is need of regulative principles? He is immediately liberated. If he thinks that "Because I have taken to, I am liberated," then why the rules and regulations?

Devotee (2): But as long as he follows the rules and regulations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): (break) ...the brahma-bhūtaḥ platform, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā, immediately?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad-gītā it is said māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa, unalloyed. Bhakti-yogena sevate, then he's liberated. If it is vyabhicāreṇa, sometimes falls down, sometimes..., then it is within sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. The word is māṁ ca yaḥ avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena, pure bhakti.

Hari-śauri: Without any falldown.

Devotee (2): Falldown means deviation from the orders of the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is vyabhicāreṇa, that is not avyabhicāreṇa. If you are subjected to the attraction of māyā, that is vyabhicāreṇa.

Devotee (2): If somebody is following the instructions, but if there's attraction for māyā...

Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Maybe in the beginning due to past habits, but that must be nil very soon. Otherwise he's not following. Just like fan switched off may move for a little, but not that it will go on moving. Must stop. Switch is off. And if it is going on, then the switch is not yet off. (break)

Devotee (2): A devotee is sometimes subject to hankering or lamentation. That is material though, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): In other words, if, at that moment, if he desires something other than Kṛṣṇa, that's a material desire.

Prabhupāda: Then he has to learn it. So long one is not competent in that position, he's subjected, he may fall down. What is that temple light?

Devotee (2): That's a fountain.

Prabhupāda: It is just like Jagannātha temple.

Hari-śauri: That, right in the distance there with the light on the top. Yeah, same design. (break)

Devotee (2): ...after us anymore because they don't have the money.

Prabhupāda: Detroit has got no money? Such a big industrial city. Neglected. They have got money.

Hari-śauri: They're not keeping this park up very well.

Prabhupāda: No. Because nobody comes here.

Hari-śauri: Too dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Hari-śauri: Many of the big parks in the big cities, they are full of thieves and all kinds of other people.

Prabhupāda: That means they cannot improve the condition of the people. Just like at the airport, everyone is checked. There is no gentlemen. Why everyone is checked? That means the whole mass of people, they're all rogues and thieves. Therefore it is necessary to keep an ideal, an ideal class of men brāhmaṇas. Then people will follow. But there is no such.... Everyone is coolie. That's all. Everyone is. They are making everyone coolie. Coolie civilization. One officer came to see me in Perth, Australia. So I told him, this is a civilization of fourth-class men. You remember?

Devotee (2): We heard the tape.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)

Devotee (2): You said there must be an ideal class of men.

Prabhupāda: There is no ideal class of men. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class.

Śrutakīrti: He accepted it also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you were present.

Śrutakīrti: Yes. At the finish he said, "Now I'm going back to my fourth-class friends."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): This man last night also, he admitted.

Prabhupāda: There is no first-class men. All fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class men. If one has got money, then he's all right. That is Kali-yuga. No qualification. But if you have got money, then it is all right. You are big man. Money's everything at the present moment. People, they are trying to accumulate money by all means. Never mind first class, second class, third class, bring money any way. Rather, if one does not drink, he's a third-class man. And if one drinks, he's first-class man. Civilized. In India, formerly, any gentleman comes, a glass of water or two sandeśa was given. Now that is rejected. If a gentleman is not offered a bag(?) of wine and some chicken, then it is not proper reception. (break).

 

Garden Conversation                                        Detroit, June 14, 1976                                                          436996

Prabhupāda: Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body--the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And, at the present moment, there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain.

Jayādvaita: Their only objection, when we present that there's brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa, then they become automatically hostile, because they understand that we're against sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And sense control is human civ.... Sense gratification is not human society. Sense gratification is not human civilization. That they do not know. Their central point is sense gratification. That is the defect. They are running on an animal civilization as human civilization. That is the defect. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And actually they are animals. If they can kill their own child, it is animal. Just like cats, dogs, they kill their own child. What is that? It is animal civilization. Who was talking that child is put into the, what is that, left luggage?

Hari-śauri: Left-luggage lockers. Trivikrama Mahārāja, in Japan. He said over two hundred thousand, uh, twenty thousand babies, they put them in a left-luggage locker and leave them.

Prabhupāda: Busway station? Railway station? Leave luggage. Put it and lock it, then not coming back. Then when there is bad smell.... This is going on. This is simply animal civilization. Taking the last drop of milk from the cow and immediately send it to the slaughterhouse. They are doing like that. Before sending to the slaughterhouse, they draw out the last drop of milk from the cow. And immediately killing. So you require the milk, you are taking so much milk, without milk you cannot.... And the animal from whom you take milk, she's your mother. They forget this. Mother supplies milk, she supplies milk from her body, and you are killing the mother? Is that civilization? Killing mother? And milk is necessary. Therefore you are taking the last drop of it. Otherwise, what is the use of taking the last drop of milk from the cow? It is necessary. So why not let her live and supply you milk, and you can make hundreds and thousands of very nourishing palatable preparation from milk? Where is that intelligence? Milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So instead of taking the blood, take the transformation and live nicely, like honest gentlemen. No. They are not even gentlemen. Rogues, uncivilized. If you want to take meat, you can kill some insignificant animals like hogs and dogs which have no use. You can eat them, if you at all eat. That was allowed, hogs and dogs are allowed. Because no gentleman class will take meat. It is lower class. So they were allowed, "All right, you can take hogs, śvapaca." Lower class of men, they were taking hogs and dogs. Still, they are taking. So if you want meat, you can kill these unimportant animals. Why you are killing the animal whose last drop of milk you require? What is the sense? And as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa, He killed Pūtanā but gave her the position of the mother. Because Kṛṣṇa felt obliged, that "Whatever the Pūtanā's intention may be, but I sucked her breast, so she's My mother." So we are taking milk from the cow. The cow is not my mother? Who can live without milk? And who has not taken cow's milk? Immediately, in the morning, you require milk. And the animal, she's supplying milk, she's not mother? What is the sense? Mother-killing civilization. And they want to be happy. And periodically there is great war and wholesale massacre,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                        437954

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God; whatever He likes, you have to supply. That is God. Why He likes, we cannot question. That is not the business of the servant. So as servant we simply obey the orders. That's all. That is real servant. Is there any instance the servant is asking, "Why you are asking me to supply you this?" Therefore what would be the position of the servant? He would be dismissed. Bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ. That is very dangerous.

duṣṭā bhāryā ṣaṭhaṁ mitraṁ

bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ

sa-sārpe ca gṛhe vāso

mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ

Duṣṭā bhāryā. If wife is polluted, duṣṭā bhāryā, and śaṭhaṁ mitram, and friend is a hypocrite.... Duṣṭa bhāryā ṣaṭhaṁ mitram. What is that? Bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ, and servant does not obey, gives answer or, yes, if your master asks, "Give me this," if he says, "Why are you asking?" Such kind of bhṛtya, servant, and polluted wife and hypocrite friend, three, and a snake within the bedroom.... (break) Family means father, mother, wife, children. Generally this is family. So family members are supposed to be all friendly, in one accord, so that family life is peaceful. But sometimes the family members become enemies. So how they become enemies? That is given by Cāṇakya Paṇòita: mātā śatruḥ, ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. Father is enemy if he's a debtor, he dies a debtor. According to Vedic law, because the son inherits the property of father, he's responsible also for the debts of the father, by law. A father dies debtor, so the creditor can claim from his son. So therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father who dies a debtor, he's enemy. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī. Mother becomes enemy when she accepts another husband in the presence of children. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī. Åṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ is father and mother. Then wife: rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. If wife is very beautiful, she's enemy. (laughs) Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Because he will remain always anxious whether my wife is going with other somebody. And it so happens. (laughs) Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇòitaḥ. And son is enemy if he's a rascal. So father, mother, wife, children.

Hari-śauri: And the daughter?

Prabhupāda: Daughter is also son. Son and daughter are the same position. If they are not educated, they become burden. Apaṇòita, means not educated. Then they become burden, simply eyesore. That is another place he states: varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkha-śatair api. Ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān. What is the use of such children, of son, who is neither a devotee nor a learned man? So, kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīòaiva kevalam. Just like blind eyes. What is the use of it? It is simply pains giving. You have got eyes, but if it is diseased, cataract or something, so what is the use of possessing these eyes? Sometimes it becomes so painful that the doctors, they pluck out. You know that? They get out the eyes completely, and decorate with a false eye. This is very delicate place. Even a small grain enters, it gives so much trouble. So if the eye itself is diseased, it is very, very painful. Therefore sometimes he plucks out. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīòaiva kevalam.

                                                                                                                                                                        487206

Prabhupāda: So develop it nicely. (break) ...fruit and flower trees. Mango trees, all fruits, banana, papaya, jackfruit, apple, guava...

Hari-śauri: Pineapple.

Prabhupāda: Pineapple. And flowers.

Hari-śauri: They have lots of gardenias there. (peacock crying in background)

                                                                                                                                                                        437155

Prabhupāda: No. We can.... From milk, we can make so many nice foods. You take ghee, and from ghee, from grains, from fruits, you make so many varieties. Just like dahl, pulses, soak it in the water and then fry in the ghee and put masalā, and it is so nice salty preparation, dahl mutta. Then make samosā. You introduce these things, dahl mut(?), samosā, jalebīs, they will like. They have never tasted all these. Sandeśa, rasagullā, pantoa,(?) so many varieties from milk, only milk.

Mādhavānanda: In the restaurant in New York, many, many respectable people come, and they come once and they come back again and again and again.

Prabhupāda: Panwanna(?), puṣpānna, kijeranna(?),

so many things. What is that? If you kill the cow you get the meat only one time. But if you allow the cow to live and take milk, and from milk you can make hundreds and thousands of preparations. That is enjoyment, real enjoyment. In Delhi, there are shops, very respectable shops. One side salt, and one side sweet. But the salt side or sweet side, they're all based on ghee. This preparation, dahibarā, so nice. Combination of grain and yogurt. So introduce this. They do not know. It is a new type of civilization we are trying to introduce for the benefit of the human society. They do not know it. Crude civilization. Primitive. Kill an animal and eat. And when you are civilized, you are supposed to know so many things; why should you kill the animal? You utilize the animal. This milk is taking the blood without killing. That is humanity. You are eating beef because of the blood. So if you take the blood in a different way, you get the same benefit. And if you are still ambitious to eat the meat, flesh, just wait, it will die, you take at that time. Why so hurry? Everyone will die, there is no doubt about it. So you take the dead body and eat. Why do they not?

Hari-śauri: They said there's something wrong with it. When it dies, it has so many diseases and things.

Prabhupāda: This is rascaldom. They are eating so many dead animals.

Hari-śauri: But they say if they kill it in a healthy condition then the meat they eat is good.

Prabhupāda: No, no, just like lobsters, they are very fond of lobster. Lobster is never bought living. It is dead and rotten, decomposed, and they eat. They cannot say that by killing we get fresh. You are eating so many rotten things, decomposed. Actually, I have seen. It has become like puss, and still they are eating.

Hari-śauri: In England they had a system, the gentry, when it was pheasant shooting season, they used to kill the pheasants and they would hang them up in the outhouses. And then, after a few days, it would begin to rot. And when they were able to pull the skin off just in one piece, when it was just hanging off, they could just pull it off, then it was good for eating. That's when they would eat the flesh.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And another, they are digging the pig? You said?

Hari-śauri: Oh, Śukadeva was saying in Hawaii. They bury the pig, and when it becomes completely rotten they dig it up and eat it.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, when the cow is dead, you dig, or put it within the.... Or take it. No, nobody will object. In India, that is the system. When the cow is dead, there is a class, they are called cobblers, camar(?). They are informed and they'll come. They'll take it. And they'll eat the flesh and take the skin, and tan it in their own method, and then prepare shoes. They sell it in the market. So without any price, they get the skin, they eat the flesh. So nobody is harmed. But there is a class.... (break) ...they are not going to starve. From economic point of view, it is very good. So why you are killing and maintaining so big, big slaughterhouse? Let everyone maintain the cows for taking milk. And when it dies, you take it, you meat-eaters. Make that arrangement.

Rakṣaṇa: They spend so much money on force-feeding the cows (indistinct)

Mādhavānanda: It's actually been proven that the animal's flesh becomes poison. Because of the fear of the animal, he releases adrenalin in his bloodstream, and this adrenalin makes the meat poisonous to the human system, proven scientifically.

Hari-śauri: Causing cancer.

Mādhavānanda: And that is one of the causes of cancer.

Prabhupāda: I think we published some article.

Jayādvaita: Yes, in Back to Godhead, we gave these arguments.

Mādhavānanda: Mukunda did research.

Prabhupāda: He wrote it nice.

Mādhavānanda: Yes, cancer is the largest killing disease now. (break)

Makhanlāl: (laughter) These are some pictures of our farm project, St. Louis farm project.

Prabhupāda: Yes, increase farm projects. It is very nice project. Self-dependent. Very good. Kṛṣṇa personally, He lived in village, farm, cows, calves, land, Govardhana Hill. It is very nice. Land, in America, you have got so much land. Produce vegetable, grains, milk, eat sumptuously, no economic question.

                                                                                                                                                                       

437193

Mādhavānanda: We wanted to have a cow here, but they won't allow one within the city limits.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. The government is rākṣasa. So you have to take charge of the government. First of all make propaganda, the majority of population may (be) in favor of you. Then you'll get vote. This is the easiest process. If majority people likes, that "These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice," then you make a candidate--"Vote for Kṛṣṇa conscious person, such and such." They'll vote. In this way, you'll capture the Senate, then government, then President's office. It is very.... At least, there must be majority of the people sympathizers of this movement. Then it will be successful. So you do everything exemplified, and people will vote. But it is difficult in this way, that "These people are prohibiting intoxication and gambling. How we can live without this?" That is the difficulty. They cannot imagine even that without these things one can live. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: It's a fact. If you stop them doing that, they'll have no activity, just working.

Rakṣaṇa: We should expand our New Bhakta program so that they can have weekend stays in āśramas, have practical experience.

Prabhupāda: That they are coming.

Mādhavānanda: (break) ...of birds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there are trees, there will be birds.

Hari-śauri: I saw a squirrel down there earlier on as well. Squirrels, there was one just down there earlier on.

Prabhupāda: Ideal. Let there be an ideal section, our people, our men. And do your personal advancement. But that much.... If people come, it's all right. Otherwise, we must make our own life successful.

                                                                                                                                                                        437206

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) If we get this land we can cultivate some grains, foodstuff. On account of this water facility you can grow so many things, vegetables, fruits, foodgrains, very nice. Keep cows. (break) Industrial civilization will fail. They are manufacturing simply cars. The time is approaching very swiftly when there will be no more demand for cars.

Mādhavānanda: Already it's failing. They are making so many cars now, and people aren't purchasing. In the newspaper, you see big pictures of huge miles of lots of unsold cars. The whole motorcar business, industry, is going down.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have another trick. Now they make them very cheap so the cars will break down every year.

Prabhupāda: But if I don't want it, either cheap or dear, who cares for it? If I don't want that. There was a statement by some Pope that "If the crown of England is offered to me at very cheap price, so why shall I accept it? What shall I do with it?" That is the..., that if I don't want a car.... Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car?

Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The government does not like it now because we are not going to eat meat, we are not accepting liquor, no gambling, no prostitution. So the government is already concerned. Theoretically, suppose these things are stopped, then where is the human civilization? Everything is finished. Because they have no other alternative. We have got--Kṛṣṇa consciousness--but they haven't got.

Mādhavānanda: They become bored very easily. If they do not have all the different material amusements, they become very bored and depressed.

Prabhupāda: And we have got everything. We have got feasting, dancing, chanting, philosophy, clean and spotless life.

Hari-śauri: Friendship, everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No animal killing. We are not envious of anyone.

Mādhavānanda: People come to the temple, and they say that it is like paradise here because there is no anxiety. Everyone is so happy and peaceful.

Prabhupāda: So keep this standard. At least, people will be attracted; they will appreciate it. Don't minimize this temple; keep it nicely.

Devotee: A boy said today it was like heaven on earth.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? That's nice.

Jayādvaita: The only place I found some difficulty is that sometimes if there is some discrepancy in behavior of our students, some petty stealing or something like that, then that is...

Prabhupāda: That you have to train our men so that they may be well behaved.

Jayādvaita: In Laguna Beach we had so many complaints, that they were trying to stop the temple. And their main complaint was that the devotees were taking flowers from people's gardens and without any permission, without any, simply taking. And just on that account they wanted to stop us. Some petty stealing, fifty dollars worth of flowers.

Prabhupāda: So why our devotees should take flowers from them? Stop it.

Jayādvaita: Yes, I stopped it. Instead I sent a letter to the neighbors that no one is taking flowers and we are planting a big garden. Now they've done that, and the neighbors come and they appreciate that such a nice garden is there, they remark.

Prabhupāda: You can make them friends, that "Your flowers in the garden will dry and fall down, so while it is fresh, if it is offered to God, and you'll get benefit out of it, why you object?" Yes. That's a fact.

Jayādvaita: They'll do that, too.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so convince them. They will be not enemy.

Hari-śauri: We used to tell them that in Melbourne, but they said "Leave them alone 'cause we want to enjoy them." They said that they're in their gardens for their own enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: They have no idea that why the flowers are taken. It is not for our enjoyment, for your enjoyment. When your flowers will be accepted by Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy.

Jayādvaita: It's a little difficult to explain afterwards. Instead of explaining before, that "Can we take," they would take and then explain.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you have to manage. That is preaching. What you'll do? I have seen that garden. There are lemons, apples; they are rotting and falling down. So while they can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, why don't you give it? (break) ...too hot. At night, of course, it is not hot. They lie down in open place like this on a cot.

Very pleasing sleeping.                                                                                                                                   437256                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

 

Prabhupāda: And fell and flew away. How quickly they can take. Everyone knows his business. That intelligence there everywhere. Āhāra nidrā bhayam maithunī, for these things, how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex and how to defend, everyone knows. You do not require to educate them. Only they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is only possible by the human beings. Otherwise, other necessities of bodily, everyone knows. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Every morning, this place should be washed with water. Then it will be very nice. Then we can sit down and chant all day and night, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Haridāsa Öhākura was doing that. But don't imitate. But I mean to say, if you do that, where is the problem? (break) ...I think you can acquire some land through the government for agriculture and cow protection. There are so many, so much vacant land. I think they will accept community proposal. Sometimes invite some important government officials; let them see what you are doing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                        437292

Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to do that. Better make it a doll exhibition. And give them prasāda free. Restaurant in the city, that is all right. Not here. Nobody will come to the restaurant from the city. That is not possible. But we give them free prasāda. (japa) (break)

Makhanlāl: ...Prabhupāda, you mentioned that soon there will not be so much use for automobiles. What will be our means of spreading the saìkīrtana movement?

Prabhupāda: We shall walk. You'll have good exercise. (laughter)

Makhanlāl: By oxcart also?

Prabhupāda: If possible; if not, walk. What is that?

Hari-śauri: Maybe we can develop some mystic opulence and walk on the water.

Prabhupāda: Here, in this world, everything has got six changes. Birth, then stay, and then develop, then by-products, then dwindle, then finish. Everything. So the motorcar civilization, it was born. And now the time has come it is dwindling, and it will be finished. Just like railway; railway no more interested, anybody. But when it was invented, it was very important. Now it is useless. That is the nature of everything here in this material world. It cannot be permanent benefit. That they do not know. They become very enthusiastic when some new thing is born. Child is born, I am very happy. The same child, when he's dead, I am unhappy. But one must know: what is born, it will die. So everything material has got a period of development, then it dwindles, and then finishes. So from this nature's law, we can see this motorcar attraction, utility, it will finish. It will not stay.

 

Morning Walk                                                June 14, 1976, Detroit                                                             437335

Prabhupāda: ...point out material development of civilization is artificial. It is not meant for that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is patchwork.

Prabhupāda: India has been frustrated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you mention in the First Canto how it was predicted that certain different peoples, they would conquer India. This was predicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So these troubles they were foreseeing?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The troubles that India is going through today, they were foreseeing over five thousand years ago, that the Muslims would invade, the Turks?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Englishman would invade. That is also...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Greeks.

Prabhupāda: In the Twelfth Canto.

Devotee (1)(?): I think Candragupta's name is also.... The last emperor of India. (break) ...fighting between the demons and the demigods, the demons brought mountain and it was in fire, the jungle, and it was split by dynamite, and all the stones fell down on the enemies. Where is that war plan? Bring the mountain on the head of the enemies and split it by dynamite, and it will.... (break) This information is there, that dynamite was there, and it was used for breaking mountain. Fighting was taking place. Not in this planet, upper planet.

                                                                                                                                                                        437400

Makhanlāl: In the Sixth Canto of the Bhāgavatam you made a statement that if a devotee chants the holy name even once inoffensively, this protects him eternally. Is it possible for a devotee...

Prabhupāda: Why you take advantage of chants one only? Why not sixteen? Opportunist. (laughter) Not devotee.

Makhanlāl: If one has even a small amount...

Prabhupāda: This material calculation is not made by a devotee. When one is devotee, he'll chant more and more. He'll aspire, "If I could get millions of tongues and trillions of ear, then I could finish. That is devotee. And one is thinking how to finish it by chanting once, he's not devotee. That is neophyte stage. Therefore the regulation is you must chant sixteen rounds at least. Because he'll simply try to avoid it by his so-called intelligence.

Makhanlāl: It's possible for even a neophyte to chant offenselessly?

Prabhupāda: Not possible, but he has to do it. This is offense, to think that "I have chanted once; my all sinful activities are now neutralized." This is offense. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. This is the offense. (break)

Makhanlāl: Chanting, following the orders of the spiritual master...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. No calculation.

Makhanlāl: Is that considered offenseless chanting?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. You follow strictly the instructions. If you commit offense, how it is offenseless?

Makhanlāl: It's considered offenseless if, chanting, if one follows the orders of the spiritual master carefully?

Prabhupāda: There may be offense. You should go on chanting. That will be adjusted as you advance in chanting. Harer nāma harer nāma, harer nāma eva kevalam. Simply go on chanting. We shall see later on what is offense and not offense. (laughter) Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, not for any profit. But go on serving Him. That's all. Material calculation, "Now, this much I have profited..."

 

Room Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest                Detroit, June 14, 1976.                            437449

Prabhupāda: They have started "Govinda's"?

Ambarīṣa: Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Govinda's name is nice.

Śrutikīrti: Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach they are also calling it "Govinda's."

Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"?

437555

Prabhupāda: So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:) You can explain what I was talking.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the present civilization is.... Just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi to Indian girl)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit. Even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked, "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend."

Prabhupāda: No, he said that "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man. Because he has no culture.

Stansky: This is true.

Prabhupāda: You see this black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything..." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live, husband, wife, family, like this, in very...

Prabhupāda: Happy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...simple quarters.

Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be..." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training?

Stansky: Well, there is no training here, there is no culture, as you pointed out.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training.

Stansky: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots.

Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that..., we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. We want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                    June 15, 1976, Detroit                                                            437781

"Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Hari-śauri: Purport. "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya, or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra, scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and that is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes."

George Gullen: Very good, very good, I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration that they can follow with their whole heart.

Prabhupāda: There must be practice, that we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maìgala-ārati, then having class, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, chanting, in this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes recreation. No. Twenty-four hours program.

 

Room Conversation(4)                                    June 15, 1976, Detroit                                                              438103

Prabhupāda: So food problem can be solved simply by accepting.... That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. How everyone can.... Find out.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "All living bodies subsist on food grains which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of sacrifice, and sacrifice is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: So if you produce enough food grains, both the man and the animal will live very peacefully. Food grains. And I've seen in your country, in America, in Africa, in Australia, so much vacant land without producing food grains. So men are not engaged to produce food grains, but they are brought in Detroit to manufacture of wheels of motorcar.

Kern: For ambulances to bring the sick to the doctor.

Prabhupāda: So we have to correct this. First of all, produce food.

Scheverman: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying utilize intelligence to correct the problem. Produce more food rather than worry about the fact.... So that the poor can have to eat and the animals can have. So your approach, then, is not one of direct assistance to the person who is starving or suffering, but rather indirect, utilizing intelligence to produce food.

                                                                                                                                                                              438177

Prabhupāda: Honesty. So there are so many things. If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes. Not that everyone will be peaceful. That is not possible. But if we have an ideal class of men who is following austerity, peacefulness, purity, knowledge, people will learn: "Oh, here is the ideal class."

                                                                                                                                                                              438318

Prabhupāda: If you remain to your principles, you can make the whole world your disciple. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. You have read that?

Jayādvaita: Yes. Upadeśāmṛta.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. If one is a gosvāmī,

vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ

jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam

etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ

sarvām apīmāṁ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt

You'll be accepted. We don't speak Eastern-Western. We speak for everywhere. Or Christian or Hindu. We never speak like that. I think I never said like that, that: "Our Eastern people think like that, Hindus think..." I never said. Why shall I say? It is for everyone. If you do not become peaceful, that is your business. But when I say "You become peaceful," that is meant for everyone. All right.

Devotees: Jaya (kīrtana) (end)

 

Garden Conversation                                      Detroit, June 15, 1976                                                            437645

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Your America has got so much money. Has it solved all the problems? Our Ambarīṣa Mahārāja will answer.

Ambarīṣa: What is the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Question is that your forefathers and fathers have got so much money, whether it has solved the problems of life?

Ambarīṣa: No, it hasn't solved any of their problems. It has multiplied them. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: He is the best.... He could have personally owned this palace and lived very luxuriously. He has got the means. But he did not like that. He gave it to the Vaiṣṇavas. So money cannot solve the problems. That is not possible.

Devotee (1): This is a very logical argument of preaching. When you tell them that the standard of happiness is not material opulence, people are willing to accept, because they see they are not becoming more happy.

Prabhupāda: They think like that, but that is not the solution of problems. So you discuss on this point.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They think like that because of false propaganda. So if we counterattack with the right propaganda, people will hear it.

Prabhupāda: So why you cannot write propaganda? You should. You are preaching. You must meet them and must convince them that simply getting money is not the solution of the problem. (microphone rattling) That you have to convince.

 

Morning Walk                                               Toronto, June 17, 1976                                                             438509

Bhakta Gene: No. The term, we're having trouble with the term. The term "mystic" was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from Roman or, what do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture?

Bhakta Gene: Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition. Ritualistic laws.

Prabhupāda: What is the tradition?

Satsvarūpa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to...

Prabhupāda: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. That is bhakti way.

Bhakta Gene: But so much of the tradition within the Roman Church has no reference to any scripture.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that has not been properly done. Otherwise, just like here, we have got temple, regulative principle. If it is done properly, the result will be there. If it is improperly done, then there is no result. How these boys, European, American, they never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But on account of this following the traditionalism, they are becoming devotees. It is practical, you can see. Simply theoretical knowledge will not do. Must be practical. That is traditionalism. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. That is the Nectar of Instruction. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. This is traditional. One has to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. First of all one must be enthusiastic: "I shall become devotee." Then, utsāhān dhairyāt, with patience. Then niścayāt, with conviction: "Yes, I am following the rules and it will be successful." And tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Sato vṛtteḥ, you must be honest. Sādhu-saìga. And these things in the association of devotees. ṣaòbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. Then your bhakti, devotional life, will be successful.

Satsvarūpa: Some of these Christian mystics would say it's more important to directly contact God within your own heart. These traditions are not as important.

Prabhupāda: God is there already. Where is the contact? God is there already. It is no question of contacting. He is already, but you are blind, you cannot see. Therefore if you follow the rules and regulations, then you'll see. You'll see. Otherwise we'll not see. God is there. God is everywhere. God is here. Aṇòāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. You have no eyes to see.

Bhakta Gene: These are almost the very words that Francis of Assisi stated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This question was raised in Melbourne. And that is perfectional. He was embracing tree. So I told, "This is perfection." Perfection means he'll see everywhere God and everything in God. That is perfection.

Hari-śauri: I think we should go back now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Mayā. You just explain this verse.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

You understand this?

Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything is resting in Me. I am present all over the universe, impersonally. I can't be seen. Everything is resting on Me. At the same time, I'm outside of everything. I'm independent." He maintains His personality.

Prabhupāda: Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. "I'm not there." So this is conception of God. Nothing can exist without God. But that does not mean everything is God. We have to understand this philosophy.

 

Room Conversation                                        June 17, 1976, Toronto                                                            438703

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the Gurukula in Texas? Our Gurukula, I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely--English is international language--and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way.

                                                                                                                                                                        438733

Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money; it is due to Govardhana.

Jagadīśa: Due to?

Prabhupāda: Govardhana.

Jagadīśa: Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul.

Prabhupāda: His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed?

Hari-śauri: But if he's not very fixed up, then...

Prabhupāda: That can be...

Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with Gurukula, I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone...

Prabhupāda: Now one thing is, that he has given service for the benefit of the society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution.

Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda.

Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co-managers or something like that.

Jagadīśa: Govardhana president?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. He induced persons to do some.... That you cannot neglect. (break)

Hari-śauri: It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing.

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Guruji and Babaji, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation.

Hari-śauri: No, someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by...

Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation--pants, coats. They didn't like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda.... You have heard his name or you have seen him?

Jagadīśa: No.

Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany, we used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia. They have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the..., because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, because we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: They push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their.... Just to prove that "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying."

Hari-śauri: They used to call that the "white man's burden."

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? You are Englishman. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: It's getting.... (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British empire was on the move. It's completely...

Prabhupāda: But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany.

                                                                                                                                                                        438795

Jagadīśa: You feeling headache?

Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen. Therefore I cannot eat.

Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids.

Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it?

Hari-śauri: Yes, soft foods anyway.

Prabhupāda: In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice--khoi, fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men.

Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle, that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that--you were telling him about milk, how good it was--and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other foods, but cent percent of the human society, everyone, has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is...? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got..., take, I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you.... What is this society?

                                                                                                                                                                        438808

Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change...

Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting.... If they have brain.... Just like the other day, the Christian priest. He was speaking of disabled men. You were present? I challenge you: what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it? Then he stopped.

Hari-śauri: He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. What you can do?

Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world.

Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement. They are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment.

Jagadīśa: I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it.

Hari-śauri: There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist.... (end)

 

Morning Walk                                                 Toronto,June 18, 1976                                                            439056

Indian: (break) ...initiated devotee, and he follows those four regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, will he go back to Godhead?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mām evaiśyasi asaṁśaya. Kṛṣṇa says. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiśyasi asaṁśaya. Asaṁśaya, without any doubt.

Indian: But by taking initiation, will that speed up the process?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

 

We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car.

 

But their expenditure at my direction. Not a single paisa they can spend in their own discretion.

 

If we take this culture, then the whole human society will be happy. That is our mission.

 

There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That's all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that's all.

There is no overpopulation. If the Americans allow the Chinese and the Indians to come, they can develop all these un.... "No, this is our land, you cannot come," immigration, gow gow.

 

If there is any vacant land, one can go and live there. There's no question of permission.

 

Vegetables, ghee, milk, wheat, then what do you want more?

 

You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water.

 

...wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear…Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure…Unnecessarily you should not cut.

 

...devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow?

 

Especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome condition there, they'll be very happy here.

 

The Indians are hard workers, they will develop very nicely…In South America, they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nations doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nations. Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land?

 

Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow foodgrains…And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Comfortably does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities, to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex--this is also bodily need--and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere.

 

There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere… Now you try to implement…Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously.

 

I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat?" (indistinct) I shall forego. Immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities.

 

Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive?…It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol?

 

First of all, anartha-nivṛtti… First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa… Up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building.

Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced--plain living, high thinking.

Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life.

Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever…. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact.

 

Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization?

 

So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say also.(?) And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there.

 

Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it."…Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this.

 

So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free…No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannary expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid.

 

So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect…Anyway, you have got this jewel, utilize it properly, make your life perfect.

 

Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village.

 

Kṛṣṇa Himself did it... Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find.

niyataḥ kuru karma tvaṁ

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yatrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer.

 

"Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted."

So if you follow the divisions of varnasrama, only ksatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, only qualified brahmanas.

Reporter: "What is the actual duty of the government?"

Prabhupāda: "To understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim"

 

"You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect."

 

Don't be such brāhmaṇas, at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way.

 

And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion.

 

Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindaban. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra. So that is not very important.

 

Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam

 

Little karma, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient.

 

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is considered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a brāhmaṇa is engaged in the activities of plowing and cultivating, that he has become a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: No. If there is nobody to help, he can do.

 

Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows…He is personally taking care. So why the Krsna’s devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the items of Krsna consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs. We are keeping cows because we are Krsna conscious.

 

This is the alternative life style. It is not that... This is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food production.

 

Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there…You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter...If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness.

 

And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, param anna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains--oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require. If you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take--bas. You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy.

 

Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficient. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not?…The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān. They will not be happy.

 It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building.

 

He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist. He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased. So he is not guru. He's a servant. He wants to serve the so-called disciples so that he may be satisfied and pay him something. He's servant. He's not guru.

 

Without becoming a brāhmaṇa you cannot become Vaiṣṇava.

 

You cannot surrender until you love.

 

Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat… No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop, you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything."…First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see…So let them inspect. What is the wrong there?

 

I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical…So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop.

 

But it should not be thrown…Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi…Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it…Up to the last drop, it can be utilized.

 

The cow is especially meant for the human beings. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Naturally they will see that this is convenient.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY TWO

Room Conversation                                        June 18, 1976, Toronto                                                            439112

Prabhupāda: If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's life(?). No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember in South Africa though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps)

Hari-śauri: He did that, (laughing) you did that in South India as well.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that...

Prabhupāda: No, no, when I come into emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car.

                                                                                                                                                                              439164

Prabhupāda: Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. They are not sober. Adhīra. Therefore they meet with so many accidents. You also. As soon as we're in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry if you were in the car.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably.

Hari-śauri: We can make our own pace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara also. He was driving seventy-five. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon.

Prabhupāda: Oregon, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was in the car with you in the back seat.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you were in the car?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting, you didn't even go to sleep that night (laughs). Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogi house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know, Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father.

Hari-śauri: No one in the West likes to stay with their parents.

Prabhupāda: Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're unhappy?  

Prabhupāda: Yes. His two sisters.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program.

Prabhupāda: She first of all came in London.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She was piano player.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Family life in the West is disastrous.

Prabhupāda: The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't.... The father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy.

Hari-śauri: That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children they resent that, because they can see that "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, Rancor, so his father and mother divorced and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring a new friend. So he could understand.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A new woman.

Prabhupāda: Not new woman, his mother, he was under the care of mother.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends.

Prabhupāda: Daily night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauòīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauòīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: New?

Prabhupāda: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand:"Who is this man?" So he protested and said, "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed?

Prabhupāda: By the mother.

Hari-śauri: She murdered him?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauòīya Maṭha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauòīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuïja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died, his end was like this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His son was killed, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He killed himself, oh.

Prabhupāda: Naturally, he became shocked, that "This is my family life--the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see.

 

Interview with Professors                            June 18, 1976, Toronto                                            438903 Prabhupāda: No. I was not very much hopeful. That I wrote one poetry, that "Kṛṣṇa, why You have brought me in this country? What can I do? How I shall convince them how they will understand the philosophy? So, but because You have brought me here, must be there is some purpose. So all right. You make me dance as You like." That poetry, I (wrote) in Boston, Commonwealth Pier, on the sea. I came by ship. So I wrote that poetry, that I do not know what for I have come here, why Kṛṣṇa has brought me here. As soon as I shall say that there is no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no drinking, and no gambling, they'll say, "You go home. Don't talk." I knew this. Still I attempted. But these boys kindly accepted. I never made any compromise. I said, "These are the first conditions to become Kṛṣṇa conscious: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Are you agreed?" They say yes, then come. If I would have made compromise, "Yes, whatever you like you can do." No, I never did. Ask them. I never did. Some of them left, that "It is too difficult. The primary necessities of life are denied here." (chuckles) But these boys, they have accepted, and therefore it is improving. They are young men, they have got all the desires for material enjoyment, but they have sacrificed everything. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam. If you want to purify your existence, then you must practice tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena. That is tapasya. First beginning is brahmacarya. Therefore according to Vedic system, brahmacārī first--to teach how to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. The children should be trained up in such a way that they will be able to control the senses and act only for the benefit of guru. That is brahmacārī. They have no personal interest. So they are collecting daily not less than one lakh of rupees, up to five lakh, these boys. But their expenditure at my direction. Not a single paisa they can spend in their own discretion. They are laboring hard to get this collection, but the money is mine. This is the arrangement. Now in Hyderabad they immediately require two lakhs. The money is there, they can take it, but they are asking by telegram my permission. I'll give them, but this is the arrangement. Guror hitam, brahmacārī. Vasan dānto guror hitam. So the prescription is there, the formula is there, the literature is there. If we take this culture, then the whole human society will be happy. That is our mission.

                                                                                                                                                                        438960

Indian man: How long did it take for Swamiji to write the seventeen volumes, translation of Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: It can be finished, but I have to look after this management, that is the difficulty.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking about the Caitanya-caritāmṛtas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, it is finished.

Hari-śauri: How long did it take?

Prabhupāda: Oh. It took one year and six months.

Guest (1): When do you usually write?

Prabhupāda: I write in the night. I get up at half past twelve. I go to bed at half past ten, and I get up at half past twelve. Then I finish my chanting, if there is any balance, and then I begin dictating. And the morning they take it and type it. So this dictaphone is always with me, wherever I go, so my writing book is not stopped. Maybe few pages, but something is there daily. Little drops of water wears the stone. So in that way we have translated so many books. About fifty-four books are already published, besides the small booklets. And, how many we have published, Bhāgavatam? About twenty-two?

Hari-śauri: Twenty volumes, and two more in print now.

Prabhupāda: Therefore twenty-two. I am expecting sixty volumes. Sixty volumes of four hundred pages. The biggest canto is the Tenth Canto. I've already published the Tenth Canto, summarized: Kṛṣṇa. But in detail, it will take at least twenty volumes.

                                                                                                                                                                        438999

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Now my request is that you take up this movement. It is actually a great contribution to the human society. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha. Those who are leaders of the society, if they take it, it is easily understood and easily distributed. So there is no question of sectarian thought. It is the necessity of the human society to understand God. The other day in Detroit, two father priests came to see me. I also requested that we require a set of first-class men that is not there at the present moment. There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That's all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that's all. So one asura was given one thousand hands by Lord Śiva. But he could not find any enemy. So he was fighting with hills and mountains and making him smashed. So he came to Lord Śiva: "Sir, you have given me one thousand hands, but there is no enemy for me. I cannot fight." So Śiva said, "Yes, you just wait for the day when your enemy will come who will smash you into pieces." (laughs) So we are simply equipping with arms and finding out to whom we'll fight. That is going on. So everyone is manufacturing the atomic weapons. So there must be some fight, so that all the nations will be ruined. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                       439748

Prabhupāda: ...land can be cultivated also?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, it could be. It would be very good land. (break) ...our own lumber now also. Cutting our own trees.

Prabhupāda: That is the nature's way. You cut the lumber and make cottage, and the land is clear, then cultivate, get you food, and cows, give them grass.

                                                                                                                                                                              439786

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break).... in the kitchen, this wood or gas?

Kīrtanānanda: Both. Mostly wood.

Prabhupāda: There are so many jungles, we can use wood.

Kīrtanānanda: Actually we like it better.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it is better, nice.

Kīrtanānanda: But it is a little dirty. Unless you change it to charcoal, there was always some smoke. This is not ours. Our property comes down this way, but not on this corner. (break) ...land, Prabhupāda, and they say overpopulation.

Prabhupada: In the beginning, I protest against this assertion, there is overpopulation. I never admitted. Perhaps you know.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no overpopulation. If the Americans allow the Chinese and the Indians to come, they can develop all these un.... "No, this is our land, you cannot come," immigration, gow gow. (break) ...creek is pure water?

                                                                                                                                                                        439830

Prabhupada:…..(pause) In Bhāgavatam we see that when Nanda Mahārāja felt some disturbances from the demons, they decided to change the place. And they immediately, from Gokula, they immediately went to Vṛndāvana. But we don't find anything that they had to take permission. Hmm?

Kīrtanānanda: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So that means formerly this was the system. If there is any vacant land, one can go and live there. There's no question of permission. When you live there and you make your professional activities, then the king will come, take little tax.

Kīrtanānanda: That used to be the system here. They called it "homesteaders." If you would go and make you home there, you could have the land.

Prabhupāda: That is not for the foreigners. If some Chinese men or Indian want to come..

Kīrtanānanda: It used to be. But not anymore for anybody.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Why?

Kīrtanānanda: Because it has become very profitable for people to keep it. Because people are making money on it now.

Prabhupāda: Money they must make; otherwise, why they should come? But what is the objection? Just like in the marketplace, still, in India, the system is, the marketplace, anyone can go and sell his goods, and when he's selling, the proprietor takes some contribution. Not that he has to take permission. He's selling there, that's all right, "Give me some..., a little contribution." The king has the right to tax for maintenance.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we take that which is not our quota, by using, wasting a lot of clean water, how is that perfect and complete, oṁ pūrṇam? How are things still perfectly complete even when we're wasting and destroying it?

Prabhupāda: Why you should waste? Wasting is not allowed. (break) ...our car?

Kīrtanānanda: No, it belonged to the man who formerly owned the property.

Prabhupāda: So how it is broken?

Kīrtanānanda: Some vandals. There's no one living here, he just left it. (in car:) This farm is for sale now.

Prabhupāda: There is no limit of purchasing?

Kīrtanānanda: Only limit is money.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say as in India there is limit, that you...

Kīrtanānanda: No, government puts no limit.

Prabhupāda: There is no land, therefore there is limit. (break)

Kīrtanānanda: Cauliflower, peas, beets, carrots, lettuce, spinach...

Prabhupāda: Potato?

Kīrtanānanda: Potato, broccoli,

Prabhupāda: Broccoli? What is that?

Kīrtanānanda: It is something like cauliflower.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's that green vegetable, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's like cauliflower.

Prabhupāda: Cabbage?

Kīrtanānanda: Cabbage, peppers.

Prabhupāda: That is nice, so many. Tomato.

Kīrtanānanda: But most things are not yet fructified. This is early in our season. Peas will be ready just shortly. Lettuce is ready.

Kīrtanānanda: It's full of cow stool and urine.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, for fertilizer?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, fertilizer. Nothing is wasted.

Prabhupāda: You can make gas also.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. That was originally an oil tank. (end)

 

Prabhupāda: Vegetables, ghee, milk, wheat, then what do you want more?

Kīrtanānanda: The wheat is just about ready for harvest.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say we can grow all these things and eat very nicely. Where is economic problem? Yajïād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. (break)

Visit to Palace                                           June 22, 1976 New Vrndavana                                                      439915

Prabhupāda: What are these pipes?

Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out into the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains.

Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water.

Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all, we have to satisfy the health department.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much.

                                                                                                                                                                        439955

Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now too.

Prabhupāda: This is ours?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure.

Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya. This is our property?

440011

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. The Vedic secret(?) is that, parā bhaktir, yasya deve, unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru, they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do. The secret is yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books in such large quantity.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Öhākura is stressing on this point,

guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya,

āra nā koriha mane āśā

Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti, kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite. You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda, and...? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. The same thing, Gauòīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raìganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) ...devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow?

Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much trouble from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what India government will do?

Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport.

Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there...

Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know.

Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return.

Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport.

Prabhupāda: There are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no...

Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try.

Prabhupāda: Our society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the immigration department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be...? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty, government gives permit.

Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (indistinct). Similarly, you can bring some men from India.

Kīrtanānanda: We would like that.

Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. India is now so congested. If they get food.... Especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome condition there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction?

Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside.

Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's, the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back.

Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation.

Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back.

Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got..., Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers, they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter; if Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America, they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nations doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nations. Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. This is our philosophy, everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan.

Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land.

Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live on the water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture.

Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow foodgrains.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work.

Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Comfortably does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities, to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex--this is also bodily need--and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. (Bengali) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) (Bengali) (japa) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nations, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nations. First of all why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again ununited? Nation--this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality--first-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dog in the United Nations for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs, Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is the fact.

Kīrtanānanda: Barking for the last thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nations and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different..., but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. (japa) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bas, final. You just try to prove it. Hm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it?

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Anyone?

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jïānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? But discuss this point, our charge, explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ?

Prabhupāda: Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind; he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall amidst these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove, that "You are not a gentleman."

 

Garden Conversation                               June 22, 1976, New Vrndavana                                                     439692

Prabhupāda: Hmm. No. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is the duty to distribute it. It is his duty. You may... When I came here, I never came here because American boys or people wanted me. They did not feel any need of my presence. But I came here, because it is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja ordered me. So one may think there is need or no need--it is the duty of Kṛṣṇa conscious persons to spread it. Just like the example I have already given. The cloud..., the mountain does not want rain, the sea does not want, but the cloud throws water everywhere.

Devotee (3): If no one was thinking that they needed your presence, then how is it some have come and some have not come? What is the difference?

Prabhupāda: Difference is it is Kṛṣṇa's desire. He wants that "Don't remain like cats and dogs. Be intelligent and come back to Me." Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. So it is the duty of a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to spread this knowledge so that they may take to Kṛṣṇa. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand, but those who are two-legged cats and dogs, (laughs) they can understand. That is the advantage, because they have got two legs. So long they had four legs (laughing) they could not understand. So here is a chance, two-legged, so give them some opportunity. That's all. (long pause) You grow bitter melon also here?

Kīrtanānanda: We tried to this spring to grow it, but we can't get the seed to sprout.

Prabhupāda: You can get it from Māyāpura?

Kīrtanānanda: We got seed, but it won't sprout.

Prabhupāda: Oh, due to the climate.

Kīrtanānanda: We don't know. It is a very hard seed.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, perhaps the material scientists could help us make the seed sprout.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (4): I was thinking earlier how a farmer can put the seed in the ground, but he cannot actually make the seed grow if it is not the will of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The situation is not favorable. That is the proof that everything is a living entity. If you put the seed... The seed is not the tree, but when you put the seed on the ground, if the situation is favorable, the particular living entity who has to take the form of that tree, he comes, and then it grows. That is the proof. Just like sex. It is not the secretion of the man and the woman. It creates a situation so that the soul may come and live there, and then there is pregnancy. It is not the matter. This is the proof.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Due to his desire to lord it over material nature he is put into such undesirable circumstances."

Prabhupāda: This is not wanted. He is spirit. He has nothing to do with this material world, but he wanted it. Or the real thing is that he wanted to enjoy by becoming the master. He is servant...Sometimes servants desire it that "Why I become servant? Why not master?" That is natural. But the natural position is he is servant. If he remains servant of Kṛṣṇa, then he's happy always. But because he desired to become master, so he cannot become master in the spiritual world, because in the spiritual world the master is one. So he is given the chance, "All right, go to the material world and become a master." But that is a falldown. So he's trying struggle for existence, and everyone is trying to become master. Even one is in this spiritual knowledge that "I am spirit soul," still he's trying to become master. That is Māyāvāda. They have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but I am the supreme Brahman." The same disease is there--master. Therefore they are condemned, arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam tataḥ. Because the mentality to remain master is continuing, even they are in the Brahman, merge into the Brahman, the mastership mentality is there; therefore he falls down again. Because mastership exhibition can be done in this material world. So many Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they give up, "This world is false," and they merge, so-called merge, but the mastership mentality is there. But in the void, simply spiritual light, he cannot do any mastership; therefore again falls down in this false world, and he wants to be by becoming a leader of hospital, and school, college, a Christian missionary. And our Vivekananda also imitated that. So this, this is the material disease. He is actually servant, but he wants to become master. That is the defect. So he has to give up this mentality, mastership, then he'll be making real progress. Sarāopadhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, that "I am not master, I am servant." When he's fixed up on this platform, then he's liberated. Or in other words, when he feels pleasure, transcendental pleasure, remaining the servant, that is liberation. But as soon as he continues the mentality that "I want to be master," then he's in the māyā. That mentality he has to give up. Or he has to understand that "I'm not master; I am servant." That is liberation. What is? Go on.

 

Garden Conversation                                June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                     440149

Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ. The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, c, it is simply useless. Therefore we have called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat?" (indistinct) I shall forego. Immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. So on this principle this whole world is merged into sinful activity. (Sanskrit), unnecessary. That is material position--unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ. And the deed is encouraged: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Eh? What is...? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. (Sanskrit), unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. (Sanskrit), unnecessarily creating disturbance. (Sanskrit) sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all (Sanskrit) is finished. (Sanskrit) We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex--one side they are encouraging contraceptive method, so why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. So that requires training, determination. The śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure--they are astonished: is that pleasure? (Makes spitting sound) Phu! Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma... That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena. That requires determination. (aside:) Where did you go, to take bath?

Pālikā: This house just across.

Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No.

Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily.

Prabhupāda: Why not well? Have a big well?

Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive?

Kulādri: It's expensive.

Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube-well? But there are so many creeks.

Kulādri: We have what is called a springhouse. It's pure spring water, it's caught in reservoir.

Prabhupāda: Where is it?

Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube-well,

Prabhupāda: Water must be.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life...

Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole and collect the snow and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not?

Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now.

Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it?

Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā-kuṇòa in the movie, in the film.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does...

Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa, when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti, that is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī.

Pradyumna: Ah, siddha-praṇālī, siddha-deha?

Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women--svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa.

Devotee: So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death.

Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking utopian? First business is anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these.... These are the stages. There is.... Up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. Read.

Pradyumna:

śanaiḥ śanair uparamed

buddhyā dhṛti-gṛhītayā

ātma-saṁsthaṁ manaḥ kṛtvā

na kiïcid api cintayet

Prabhupāda: This is practice.

Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation, and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows.

Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the, where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulavana, for Rādhā-Vṛndāvanacandra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulavana they have to be in pastures.

Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here.

Kulādri: Yes, this pasture.

Prabhupāda: Still there?

Kulādri: No.

Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while, it must grow back. They are on another pasture.

Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers.

Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.

Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand, we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty?

Prabhupāda: You have no feeling, that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all.

Devotee (1) : If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self?

Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that?

Pradyumna: By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from...

Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape)

Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose?

Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Demons.

Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls.

Prabhupāda: No, they don't like us.

Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown-up son, five years old, innocent, but he's giving trouble.

Devotee (3): When we had sickness the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now. He's very interested.

Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters.

Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchase Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad-gītā. (sound of motorcycle comes very close, idles) (end)

Room Conversation                                 June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                      440295

Prabhupāda: Your party, selling books?

Kīrtanānanda: I don't know what the figures are.

Prabhupāda: No, your line is this farming.

Kīrtanānanda: Per capita, we distribute more books.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: And still they are maintaining this farm.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And building very nice buildings.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building.

Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced--plain living, high thinking.

 

Prabhupāda: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha.

Kīrtanānanda: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kīrtanānanda: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit.

Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric lights. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and... In this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence, but that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature, you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life by the laws of nature, if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm?

Kulādri: Simple living, high thinking.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kulādri: Simple living.

Prabhupāda: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog?

Kīrtanānanda: He says he doesn't believe it.

Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saìgasya. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development.

Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy."

Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence.

Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig oil?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to...

Prabhupāda: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save you improve your self-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toys, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and... Then is that very good intelligence?

Kīrtanānanda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard.

Prabhupāda: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent?

Kīrtanānanda: No, of course not.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same--animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization.

Kuladri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said.

Prabhupāda: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal, what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say "You are rascal, you must go to your room." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūòha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. The example is given that this boy will change his body. Dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand? Yes, this body will not remain. While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but... Whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your…

Kulaśekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon’s estate, you said to me...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kulaśekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler.

Prabhupāda: Yes, passion, there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and when we have got the facility, then we take to it.

Kulaśekhara: The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Less disease. Less braintaxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine?

Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature"--what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividaiva śrūyate. Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula--chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa.

Kīrtanānanda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology.

Prabhupāda: That is, of course.

Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. You don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better? To accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? But you have to, unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. They are so dull they cannot understand the simple truth that as the child, boy is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūòha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. So everyone is getting milk? How much?

Kīrtanānanda: As much as they want.

Prabhupāda: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head.

Kīrtanānanda: Minimum.

Prabhupāda: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound, milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong.

Kīrtanānanda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds.

Prabhupāda: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization?

Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion.

Prabhupāda: No, religion, there is no religion for them, but there is no morality. Here we are having so many children, we don't brag(?) that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, putputputputputputputput and killing child? Is that civilization?

Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from...

Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome.

Kīrtanānanda: ...mothers without fathers,

Prabhupāda: That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have no arguments against this except that they want to be free. In colleges...

Prabhupāda: But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking free. That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaìkāra vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will give some nonsense answer.

Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't talk of any sect, we are talking of the general principles.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their tendency is...

Prabhupāda: Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But I accept death as part of life.

Prabhupāda: Part of life?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, it's natural. So I don't, I'm not afraid.

Prabhupāda: Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went--and he was showing fear.

Prabhupāda: Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid.

Kuladri: Prabhupāda? They say why do you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life, why do you worry about death?

Prabhupāda: Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child, or the boy is not his son, but because he is gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians, that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. It is para-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them."So those who are servants of God, they are also doing thew same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say also.(?) And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there.

Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money, you require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India, before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping, say, a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then..., what is called? It is another milk.

Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese?

Visakha: Buttermilk

Prabhupāda: Buttermilk, yes, and in this way after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way…

Hari Sauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India?

Prabhupada: Hmmm?

Hari Sauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk.

Prabhupada: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk?

Kīrtanānanda: About a thousand pounds.

Prabhupāda: Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it."

Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal.

Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim.

Kirtanananda: But that will get us in trouble.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally…

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow.

Prabhupāda: They take it . Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this.

Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried.

Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it.

Kīrtanānanda: The jackals like it.

Prabhupāda: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government...

Kīrtanānanda: Government doesn't like it.

Prabhupāda: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry, they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat-eaters. Take free without any price.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open.

Prabhupāda: Disgusting?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable.

Prabhupāda: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannary expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid.

Kīrtanānanda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself, he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat-eater. And he said, one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it, then it was ready to eat.

Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists."

Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone."

Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being.

Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect.

 

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have got this jewel, utilize it properly, make your life perfect.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya paya bhakti-latā-bija

But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land?

Kīrtanānanda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work.

Prabhupāda: Hard work.

Kīrtanānanda: That is good.

Prabhupāda: For cows there is no difficulty.

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: In India, they call Pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are Pahārhī. You have accepted other's children also?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands, there are quite a few here.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is..., who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca. Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are, come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Kīrtanānanda: The children are doing very nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find.

niyataḥ kuru karma tvaṁ

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yatrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

Find out this.

Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference--"Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately...

Dhṛṣṭadyumna:

niyataḥ kuru karma tvaṁ

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yatrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy.

 

B.T.G. Inspection                                      June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                     440209

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "...God's property from being occupied by God's sons. America and other nations in the United Nations should agree that wherever there is enough land it may be utilized by the human society for producing food. The government can say, 'All right, you are overpopulated. Your people can come here. We will give them land, and they can produce food.' We would see a wonderful result, but will they do that? No. And what is their philosophy? Roguism. 'I will take the land by force and then I won't allow others to come here.' "

Reporter: "One American motto is 'One nation under God.' "

Prabhupāda: "Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted."

Kīrtanānanda: Who is this reporter?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha Suta. This was in Māyāpura. (continues reading) "But in America people are very much afraid of the central government"--this is the reporter--"because they think that wherever there is a strong government there will always be tyranny." Prabhupāda: "If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny."

Reporter: "But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt."

Prabhupāda: "You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt."

Reporter: "What is that training process?" Prabhupāda: "That training is the varṇāśrama-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural quality. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God."

Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?"

Prabhupāda: "No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required."

Reporter: "But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two."

Prabhupāda: "Yes, the capitalist class is required and the working class is also required."

Reporter: "But they are fighting."

Prabhupāda: "Because they are not trained up, they have no common cause. The hand and leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting."

Reporter: "Revolution?"

Prabhupāda: "Yes."

Reporter: "Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Yes. Just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. You come to consult me about every activity because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life, the common cause, and they should train the people to work for the common cause. Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing. They are cheating. They are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime posts. This system is bad."

Reporter: "So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?"

Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building  you require engineers. You don’t want sweepers. Isn’t that so? What will the sweepers do? There must be engineers. So if you follow the divisions of varnasrama, only ksatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, only qualified brahmanas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness. Because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly."

Reporter: "What is the actual duty of the government?"

Prabhupāda: "To understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim"--that's the caption they put up here also, "The actual duty of government is to understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim"--"then people will be happy. But if the people work in the wrong direction, how can they be happy? The government's duty is to see that they are working in the right direction. The right direction is to know God, to act according to His instruction. But if the leaders themselves do not believe in the supremacy of God, and if they do not know what God wants to do or what He wants us to do, then how can there be good government? The leaders are misled, and they are misleading others. That is the chaotic condition in the world today."

Reporter: "In the United States there has traditionally been the separation of church and state."

Prabhupāda: "I am not talking about the church. Church or no church, that is not the point. The main thing is that the leaders have to accept that there is a supreme controller. How can they deny it? Everything in nature is going on under the supreme Lord's control. The leaders cannot control nature, so why don't they accept a supreme controller? That is the defect in society. In every respect the leaders are feeling that there must be a supreme controller, and yet they are still denying Him."

Reporter: "But suppose the government is atheistic?"

Prabhupāda: "Then there cannot be good government. Americans say they trust in God, but without the science of God, that trust is simply fictitious. First take the science of God very seriously, then put your trust in Him. They do not know what God is, but we do. We actually trust in God. They are manufacturing their own way of governing, and that is their defect. They will never be successful. They are imperfect, and if they go on manufacturing their own ways and means they will remain imperfect. There will always be revolutions, one after another. There will be no peace."

Reporter: "Who determines the regulative principles of religion that people should follow?"

Prabhupāda: "God. God is perfect. He does that. According to the Vedic version, God is the leader of all living entities. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. We are different from Him because He is all-perfect and we are not. We are very small. We have the qualities of God, but in very small quantity. Therefore we have only a little knowledge, that's all. With a little knowledge you can manufacture a 747 airplane, but you cannot manufacture a mosquito."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Is it possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (continues reading) "God has created the mosquito's body, which is also an airplane. That is the difference between God and us. We have knowledge, but it is not as perfect as God's. So the leaders of the government have to consult God then they will rule perfectly." On this side it says "Leaders of government have to consult God, then they will rule perfectly."

Reporter: "Has God also devised the most perfect government?"

Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. The kṣatriyas ruled the government in Vedic times. When there was a war, the king was the first to fight. Just like your George Washington. He fought when there was a war. But what kind of president is ruling now? When there is a war he sits very securely and telephones orders. He's not fit to be president. When there is war the president should be the first to come forward and lead the battle."

Reporter: "But if man is small and imperfect, how can he execute God's perfect orders for a perfect government?"

Prabhupāda: "Although you may be imperfect, because you are carrying out my order, you become perfect. You have accepted me as your leader, and I accept God as my leader. In this way society can be governed perfectly."

Reporter: "So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government."

Prabhupāda: "You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect." The end of the article.

 

Room Conversation                                  June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                     440715

Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali-yuga... The Kali-yuga has begun after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam?

Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam.

Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ. People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ. Then?

Pradyumna: Satyam.

Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful. Partly because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali-yuga. Then?

Pradyumna: Śaucam.

Prabhupāda: Śaucam, cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then?

Pradyumna: Kṣamā.

Prabhupāda: Kṣamā. Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and?

Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam.

Prabhupāda: Cleanliness.

Pradyumna: Kṣamā.

Prabhupāda: And kṣamā, pardon. Then?

Pradyumna: Dayā.

Prabhupāda: Dayā, mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one child, one's own child, they killing. Just see how degraded, dayā. What to speak of no dayā, no mercy for the animals--all right, you are not so advanced--but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri-kala-jïā. Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then?

Pradyumna: Āyur.

Prabhupāda: Āyur, duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years.

Hari-śauri: The average is seventy-three years now.

Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. These are the symptoms, āyur. Then?

Pradyumna: Balam.

Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength... In India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very tall and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then?

Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ.

Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything, religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life--they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri-kala-jïā. Tatas, what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan?

Pradyumna:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ

satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā

kālena balinā rājan

naìkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ

Prabhupāda: Kālena, in due course of time, all these items, there are eight items it will be reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing so much. So what is that?

Devotee (2): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (2): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than...

Prabhupāda: That these rascals say, we do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease?

Devotee (2): They say there is less disease now.

Prabhupāda: Less disease, everyone suffering from cancer.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease?

Devotee (2): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than...

Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ke na bole chakole ke na khai (indistinct). A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything.

Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and put on...

Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening.

Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life.

Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery?

Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then?

Pradyumna:

vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ

janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ

kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi

Prabhupāda: So vittam, money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali-yuga symptom, that position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi.

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra. First of all, janma, the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but thet is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England the British Empire’s policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting, they used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a steet boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money. That's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand.

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic, then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then?

Pradyumna: Guna.

Prabhupāda: Guna. You are a most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because of money you are a qualified man. Then?

Pradyumna: Janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: Dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Dharma-nyāya. Now if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on. That if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra. Then?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatya?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir, hetur...

Prabhupāda: Abhirucir, yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully, so many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. But in this Kali-yuga, dāmpatye abhirucir. Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And the, after three days after marriage, there is divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir, "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days I don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this, formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and this girl are going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural, by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the... Now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other... Dāmpatye, what is that?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci. Ruci means liking. Then?

Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike.

Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike. In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali-yuga. Ordinarily even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. Then?

Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Hnm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir. Then?

Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi. And there is a brāhmaṇa. What is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; purchased on the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa. "You are a brāhmaṇa?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas, at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi. Then?

Pradyumna: Liìgam evāśrama-khyātāv.

Prabhupāda: Liìgam evāśrama-khyātāv. There are āśramas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī, gṛhastha. So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress, he becomes a brahmacārī, he become a gṛhastha, he becomes a sannyāsī, simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then?

Pradyumna: Liìgam, eva.

Prabhupāda: Liìgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī, this is the dress of a gṛhastha. Just like daṇòa. Daṇòa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī. Then?

Pradyumna: Liìgam evāśrama-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then?

Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam.

Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam. If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you have to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money, and if you have no money, then you cannot get your money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam.

Pradyumna: Pāṇòitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Paṇòita, if you can speak very vehemently, any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you: "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he's spoke very nicely." He spoke very nicely. What is that nicely? That cāpala. (Prabhupāda speaks some jibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then?

Pradyumna: Anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu.

Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a..." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse, "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then?

Pradyumna:

anāòhyataivāsādhutve

sādhutve dambha eva tu

svīkāra eva codvāhe

snānam eva prasādhanam

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Snānam eva prasādhanam. And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then?

Pradyumna: Dūre vāry-ay...

Prabhupāda: Vāry-ayanam.

Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre...

Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry-ayanaṁ tīrtham. Tīrtham. If you go... Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindaban. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra. So that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam. You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then?

Pradyumna: Dūre vāry-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam, now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali-yuga if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. Ultimately, with the advancement of Kali-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar, like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp, it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way, things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists...? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or dahl or milk, sugar. That is not possible.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible.

Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated here. You'll find this verse,

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann

asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ

kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet

It is, the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How...? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end)

 

Room Conversation                                  June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                     441076

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam. (end)

 

Garden Discussion                                   June 26, 1976, New Vrndavana                                                     440890

Prabhupāda: Ugra-karmāṇaḥ, the factory. This is ugra-karma. Pradyumna was describing ugra-karma, hellish. Little karma, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient. What is the use of opening big, big factory? Ugra-karma. What it has helped? You were talking on behalf of them. What it has helped? Keeping them. Innocent men, women, they are kept in that factory simply for livelihood. A little work will provide his needs. Nature has given so much facility. They can grow little food anywhere. The cows are there in the pasturing ground. Take milk and live peacefully. Why you open factories? What is the use? Keeping them in hellish condition of life. So this is the description. Now discuss these points.

441030

Prabhupāda: Our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, the formula is therefore: as soon as you get money, fifty percent spent for printing and fifty percent for temple. This is the basic principle of our Bhaktivedanta (Book Trust)--no saving. As soon as you have got some money, print books, print books. Don't keep it. If you print books, some day somebody will read. But if we keep money, it creates disturbance. I am therefore always insisting, "Print books, Print books." Or construct temple, this building, that building. There is no need of keeping money.

 

Morning Walk                                           New Vrndavana June 26, 1976                                                     441340

Śyāmakunda: The karmīs, they say that its... When you have this cow that won't give any more milk and its teeth are rotten where its going to die--it can't hardly eat properly--that it's a waste to not use that meat to feed people. It should be slaughtered.

Prabhupāda: I have written?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. He’s saying in a karmi book.

Śyāmakunda: They say that the economically proper thing to do is kill the cow after it, er, and not waste the meat.

Prabhupāda: And who will take? When he'll die, who will take his meat? That is also economical. Why don't you give it to the animal-eaters instead of wasting it? Why they bury in the ground? Why? Let it be thrown eating by the jackals or anybody else.

                                                                                                                                                                        441363

Prabhupāda: They do not. Rascals... How to live, they do not know. Animals. There is a class of men in India, they take, I told you, the dead body of a cow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cobblers.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mucis?

Prabhupāda: Muci, yes. Their business is shoe maker. So when the cow is dead, they take it, they eat the meat and take the skin and the hoof. They make business without any, what is called, investment. Harer nāma. That is economic. He gets the skin without any price, and he makes shoes and gets full profit. But that is for a class of men, not for all. Economic gain for a cobbler is not the economic gain for a brāhmaṇa. "One man's food another man's poison."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is considered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a brāhmaṇa is engaged in the activities of plowing and cultivating, that he has become a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: No. If there is nobody to help, he can do.

 

Garden Conversation                         New Vrndavana, June 27, 1976                                            441181 Devotee(2): Srila Prabhupada, there’s one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. If I desire to approach God, and if He's all-powerful, He can instruct me from within.They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing.

Prabhupāda: So?

Devotee (2): Yet, they continue to claim like that, so...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna... His realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies.

Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him?

Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it.

Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this?

Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his...

Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad vidhi praṇipātena.

Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ

prīti-pūrvakam. Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām, one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him? A rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say "But I love God."

Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say--he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith, God talks with him." So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some store keeper says "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to

accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And the person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service, and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks, therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think?

Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question?

Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also.

Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time.You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says "Just now I went to Mr. Ford, and talked with him. I'm coming back from him." So any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency that we believe such things. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense. Why I shall accept nonsense? The same example. If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President." Shall I have to believe? He's a common man. How he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that?

Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here... I have to bring a fan from somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is, you bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad-gītā, how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master." It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ. Teṣām evānukampārtham. Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not?

Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses.

Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say "God talks with such and such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions?

Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it, you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time?

 

                                                                                                                                                                        441297

Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam. "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, dahl and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. That is Krsna. And He is personally taking care. So why the Krsna’s devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the items of Krsna consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs. We are keeping cows because we are Krsna conscious. Krsna did not keep so many dogs as nowadays so many big, big men they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect.

 

Garden Conversation(2)                           New Vrndavana June 27, 1976                                                      441106

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa, and yet in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija bandhu," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse he says "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas, the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater?

Prabhupāda: You do not understand it?

Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders.

Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the..., any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go, does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, śūdras. So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā. Maryādā means honor. That must... Varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs--everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda. Just see even in this flower, this is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland, "I am accepting everything." Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Kulādri: In democracy they say everyone is...

Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is...? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter).Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president.

Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras...

Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done. Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say "I think like this," you'll say "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our ropaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this, where?

Devotees: Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nations is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us."

                                                                                                                                                                        441136

Prabhupāda: Strī-saìgī means not only the man, the man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all, finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said asat-saìga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava. Don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship, very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī. So the preacher is madhyama-adhikārī. A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. He is in the lowest stage of devotional service; he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat. And madhyama-adhikārī, he knows how to deal with asat. At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya. Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctor, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to... So hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra. Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Éśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu

dviṣatsu ca. Four observations. Bhagavān--īśvara; prema--love. And, prema-maitrī, friendship with devotees. And kṛpa, mercy to the innocent person. And upekṣā, no more talking. Don't waste time, talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna-vrata--tapas-śruti...

 

Room Converstion                                   June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                      442088

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the alternative life style. It is not that... This is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food production. That is there, already there.

Kīrtanānanda: Could have been a little more.

Prabhupāda: No, it is... In nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything... And you are living practically for the last... Eight years? Here?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter.

Kīrtanānanda: They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof--the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Our community is gaining in opulence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān. If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān. They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical, we have got enough food grains. We have got enough... That is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, param anna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains--oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require. If you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take--bas. You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha-paìgu?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind and lame.

Prabhupāda: India could not improve on account of poverty, lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha-paìgor nyāya.

Rādhāvallabha: The book distributors use that example sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhāvallabha: It works too.

Prabhupāda: Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Åṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is... But Śiva immediately came to his senses--"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficient. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not?

Kīrtanānanda: It is a fact.

Prabhupāda: The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān. They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON."

Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To collect.

Prabhupāda: ...to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No?

 

Bhavan Journal Questionaire                     New Vrndavana June 28, 1976                                                     441405

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That, the charge is that Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore people are not making progress because they simply accept...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are misguided. First of all, the Hinduism is also misguiding. There is no such thing as Hinduism. It is sanātana-dharma and varṇāśrama-dharma. I do not know how this word... Most probably it was given by the Mohammedans, "Hindus." But there is no such thing. In Bhagavad-gītā I don't find any word as "Hindu." Is there any word? Throughout the whole? There is no such thing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a second part to this question also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They ask: if it's false that actually Hinduism is not fatalistic or sanātana-dharma is not fatalistic...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Fatalistic in this sense, that the destiny cannot be changed. Just like I have given already the example, that the Mahatma Gandhi, nobody expected that he would be killed by his own countryman. Why it happened? This means destiny cannot change. This is a prominent example, that Mahatma Gandhi, he was in a big meeting. Who expected that Mahatma Gandhi could be killed, and by his own countryman? But it was done. That is destiny. You cannot check it. So our point is that... The whole Vedic civilization is that destiny, a certain amount of happiness in this material world... Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of so-called happiness and certain amount of so-called distress. There must be always. So as you cannot check your distressed condition of life, similarly you cannot check your happy condition of life. It will come automatically. So don't waste your time for these things. You better utilize your energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they think that "These people are wasting time."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then, is it true then that people who have this conception, they would not try for progress?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Progress... The thing is that if you try progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your destiny, so why should you try for that? Better... That is the... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Therefore whatever energy you have got, you utilize it for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Make it clear. Just like our society. We are, our main business is how to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not very enthusiastic to open big, big factories and big, big money-earning machine. No. We are not interested. We'll be satisfied with the amount of happiness or distress, whatever we are destined. Let us utilize our energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the point. So the Vedic civilization is meant for realization of God. Viṣṇur aradhyate. So they try for that. And now, at the present moment.... Actually, the varṇāśrama-dharmi, they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India still, thousands of men taking bath in the Ganges. In the Kumbhamela... You have been in Kumbhamela?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: At the Kumbhamela millions of people are coming to take bathing in the Ganges because they are interested how to become liberated. They're not lazy. They're going thousands miles, two thousand miles away, to take bathing in the Prayāgaa. So they are not lazy. But they are not busy in the dog's race. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Saṁyamī. He keeps night, he does not sleep. Others are sleeping. So similarly, the dogs and asses, they think that "They are not working." And they are working. The different platforms. So the Vedic civilization which is practiced in India... Now it is distorted, but actually, they are not lazy. They are very, very busy. Not only very, very busy, but from, they are trying to become self-realized from the very beginning of life.

Devotee: Kaumāraṁ acaret prajïā?

Prabhupāda: Prajïo dharmaṁ bhāgavatan iha. That is recommended. They are not lazy. They are so busy that want to begin the business from the very childhood. So it is a wrong conception that they are lazy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then if this is false that actually they're not...

Prabhupāda: they do not know what is the aim of life. They think that "they are not racing like dog; therefore, they are lazy." But they are busy, very busy, from the childhood. But they have no eyes to see what is, business means.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The second point is, in connection with this question, that there's a certain class of people in India--he describes them as being advanced, well-meaning and highly educated people in India today--that they're accusing Hinduism of inhibiting progress and he wants to know why is this.

Prabhupāda: That is explained. They do not know what is progress. The Vedic civilization is not interested in this so-called false progress. Just like from hut to skyscraper. They think this is progress. But the Vedic civilization thinks how much he is advanced in self-realization. Either he is in cottage or in skyscraper. But if he wastes his time to turn the huts into skyscrapers, then the whole life is finished. And next time he is going to be a dog. He does not know. That's all.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They want to know how this can be counteracted, this idea?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Don't get...

Hari-śauri: (whispering) this is going to be transcribed.

Prabhupāda: Make everything clear.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is very clear. Would you like to hear the next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, it is clear or now?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So long it is not clear, you can go on asking. One question after one question.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point was made by you that they don't understand what actual progress is.

Prabhupāda: Actually, destiny cannot be checked. That I have already given. Even Mahatma Gandhi could not. The destiny you cannot check.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then the question may be raised if destiny cannot be checked, then why not, when a child is born, simply let him like an animal run around and whatever happens to him...

Prabhupāda: No. That is the advantage of... you can train him spiritually. That is possible. Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido. For that purpose you engage your energy. That is open. Ahaituky apratihatā. The devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, apratihatā, it cannot be checked. Material destiny can be checked, or it cannot be checked. Similarly, your advancement in spiritual life cannot be checked if you endeavor for it. But your advancement of so-called material happiness, that is already destined. You cannot check it. Try to understand this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then in terms of advancing in spiritual life, actually we can't say that the sanātana-dharma is fatalistic. That there is actually endeavor towards progress.

Prabhupāda: Fatalistic... I have given this example also. Just like a man is condemmed by the law court to be hanged. Nobody can check it. Nobody can check. Even the same judge who has given this verdict, he cannot check. But if he begs for the mercy of the king, he can check it. He can go all above the law. Therefore, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa for His devotees. Otherwise it is not possible. If one is condemmed to death, Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise, it is falsehood when Kṛṣṇa.... Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi," I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful activities." Suppose you are to be killed by somebody on account of your sinful activity. Nobody can check it, ordinarily, but Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's telling false, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi, "I shall give you protection." So therefore our business should be only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible. That is not possible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three?

Prabhupāda: Hm? No, first of all clear by your so, melforce(?) (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It may take several issues to...

Prabhupāda: Try to understand what is that. The first thing is that your destiny cannot be changed. That's a fact. But in spite of your destiny, if you try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Otherwise, why Prahlāda Mahārāja is asking his friends, kaumāra ācaret...? If the destiny cannot be changed, then why he's asking? It is not the... Destiny means material business. That you cannot check. But it can also be checked when you are in spiritual life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the meaning of apratihatā? You said that spiritual development cannot be checked.

Prabhupāda: Pratihatā means suppose you are destined to suffer. So apratihatā means in spite of your so-called suffering, the suffering will be reduced or there will be no suffering. But in spite of suffering, you can make progress in spiritual life. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja himself, his father was putting him in so many suffering conditions but it was not impeded. He was making progress. He was making progress. He didn't care for father's putting him into so many suffering. That is called apratihatā. If you want to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your material condition of life cannot check it. That is the progress (?) (indistinct). But so far material condition, that cannot be checked. You have to suffer. But in case of devotee that suffering also, can be stopped. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's version is false: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Suffering is there on account of my sinful activities but Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Make it clear. Ordinarily destiny cannot be checked. Therefore instead of wasting your time for change your economic condition or material destiny, you employ this energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That cannot be checked. Your so-called... So many men we can see, they are working so hard, does it mean that everyone has become a Ford, a Rockefeller? Why? Everyone is trying his best. Mr. Ford was to become rich man, his destiny was there, he became rich man. But does it mean that other man who has worked so hard like Ford, he has become like a Ford? No. This is practical. You cannot change your destiny simply by working hard like ass (?) and dogs. No. But you can utilize your energy for improving your Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. He was destined to be killed by his countryman, he was not? Such a big man, such vigilance and so many people were guarding him and still he was killed in the meeting. Why Mahatma Gandhi? Your president, ex, Kennedy. Was less protection was taken? No, every was there, everything was there but still he was killed. Who can stop this destiny? So destiny cannot be checked. The fatalists, they know, "My material happiness or distress, it cannot be checked. It will happen so why shall I waste my energy for this purpose. Let me utilize my energy for advancing

in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Therefore it is said tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labyhate yad bhramatām, that is intelligence.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if destiny cannot be changed, what does Kṛṣṇa mean when He says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice."

Prabhupāda: Do you know what is meant by sacrifice?

Devotee: Sacrifice to Viṣṇu, to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means to please Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased He can change destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhājāṁ. Sacrifice means to please Kṛṣṇa, yajïa. Yajïa means to please Kṛṣṇa. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to please Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole program. In all other business there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. When they declare war, one nation to another, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. They're pleasing their whims. The two, big, big wars began, it was not for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification is being hampered by the Britishers, "Declare war." That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are satisfying their sense gratification; we cannot do. All right, fight." So, there was no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Hm. Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three. It is said that the greatest strength of Hinduism is its catholicity, or breadth of outlook, broadness of vision, but that this is also the greatest weakness in that there is very little common prescribed religious observances which are obligatory for all as in other religions. Is it necessary and possible to outline certain basic minimum observances for all Hindus.

Prabhupāda: So far Vedic religion is concerned, it is not for the Hindus. That is to be understood. The sanātana-dharma. It is for all living entities, all human beings. It is called sanātana-dharma. That I have already explained. The living entity is sanātana, God is sanātana, and there is sanātana-dharma. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. And where Kṛṣṇa is described sanātana in the Eleventh Chapter. Do you remember? He is described as sanātana. Sanātanam. So actually, the Vedic system is called sanātana-dharma. Not Hindu dharma. This is a wrong conception. The sanātana-dharma is meant for all living entities, not the so-called Hindus,

Muslims, Christians. For everyone. That is sanātana-dharma. These are later misconceptions, Hinduism and this ism, that ism, that ism. Actually, it is called sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. That is meant for everyone. But because it was being followed regularly in India and Indians were called by the Muslims on the other side of the River Sind, or Sindu, and they pronounce Sind as Hind. Therefore they called India as Hindustan, means on the other side of Sindu, or Hindu River. Otherwise, it has no Vedic reference. So this Hindu dharma has no Vedic reference. The real Vedic dharma is sanātana-dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. First of all he has to understand this. Now that sanātana-dharma, or Vedic dharma, being distorted, not being obeyed, not being carried properly, it has come to the understanding of Hinduism. That is a freak understanding. That is not real understanding. We have to study sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma. Then we'll understand what is Vedic religion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is there anything obligatory or prescribed for all people who follow this religion, that a minimum observance that they must do?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sanātana... The sanātana... Every living entity is eternal, sanātana. God is eternal, and we can live with God in a place which is called sanātana-dhāma. So this reciprocation is called sanātana-dharma. So Vedic religion means this sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma, or Muslim dharma, or this dharma. Read it Rādhāvallabha:

tvam akṣaraṁ paramaṁ veditavyaṁ

tvam asya viśvasya paraṁ nidhānam

tvam avyayaḥ śāśvata-dharma-goptā

sanātanas tvaṁ puruṣo mato me

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhāvallabha: Translation?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhāvallabha: Your are the supreme primal objective. You are the best in all the universes. You are inexhaustible and You are the oldest. You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: This is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is eternal, we are eternal, and the place we live, exchanging our feelings, that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation, that is called sanātana-dharma. That is meant for everyone.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So what daily prescribed religious observances would one who is aspiring for this sanātana-dharma, what would they do? What kind of daily prescribed religious observance? Because the complaint is that within this Hinduism, or let's say sanātana-dharma, there is such a breadth, there is so much variegatedness in different types...

Prabhupāda: So why do you go to variegatedness? Why don't you take the real purpose of religion from Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "This is real dharma," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ..." Why don't you take that? Why are you going to variegated things or varieties under the name of so-called Hinduism? Why do you go there? Why don't you take the advice of the sanātana, Kṛṣṇa? You don't take what is sanātana-dharma, what sanātana God says, and you say, "How we can come to the right point, avoiding so many varieties?" Why you go to the varieties? Take to this one consciousness, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. Why don't you do that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can people practically do this on a daily basis?

Prabhupāda: How we are doing? Is it not practical? They'll manufacture their own way of religion. And that is... That is not practical. You take this practical system. What is this? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... Where is impracticality? You simply think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, worship Kṛṣṇa. Or just offer a little obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the duty. If you do this, you come to Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya. "Without any doubt you'll come to Me." Why don't you do that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ. Why you remain Hindu? Why you remain Muslim? Why you remain Christian? Give up all this nonsense. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. " am devotee of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Kṛṣṇa." Take this. Then everything will be immediately done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. So why you want to remain Hindu? And try to adjust things? Dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. What God says, that is dharma. Now, God says that "You give up all this. You just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma. Why you want to remain a Hindu? And who is a Hindu who does not accept the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Who is a Hindu? If any Hindu says, even up till now, that "I don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā," he will be immediately rejected as a madman. Why don't you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why do you go outside? Therefore your trouble is there. You do not know what is religion, you do not know what is Hinduism, what is sanātana-dharma. You do not know anything. And actually, practically, you see that in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are so-called Hindus, so-called Muslims. They do not care for Muslim or Hindu or Christian. They are taking care of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If you take care of false religious system, then you suffer. You take real religious system, then you'll be happy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it's also seen, say, that Muslims and Hindus they will be converted to Christianity, and the same argument can be given. So what would be the difference for the, in this case, that one who is identifying himself as Christian or one is identifying himself as devotee of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is religion. The religion is God's law. You have to understand. Religion does not mean your manufactured, concocted ideas. What God says, that is religion. So here Kṛṣṇa is God. He is saying. Therefore this is religion. Is that clear? Make it clear. So long one point is not clear, don't go to the next point.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Especially he is trying to inquire that it appears that India, for example, today...

Prabhupāda: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. That is... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharmam means the order given by the God. The God says that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "For the proper management of the human society, there should be these four divisions, social divisions." So you have to take it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This would be the prescription for all people?    

Prabhupāda: Everyone, for all people. There must be on the head the intelligent class of men who will give advice. Then next class, the... That is all given in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious you can give up all these regulative principles directly. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya. A brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, or this dharma, that dharma, Hindu dharma, Mussulman dharma. If you have everything, simply... Because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Kṛṣṇa. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."

Devotee: So many other people, they concoct their own system and they say "This is the way to go to God."

Prabhupāda: Then let them suffer. What can be done? What can be done? If you don't take the laws of the state, you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. If the state says, "Keep to the right," and if make your own law, "No, keep to the left," then you'll suffer. It's a fact.

Devotee: So many innocent people are also...

Prabhupāda: So innocent suffers. Intelligent never suffers. Only the rascals, innocent, they suffer. Innocent means rascal also. He does not know what is, what to do. The rascal is also innocent. A child is innocent, but he's a rascal. It does not mean because he's innocent, he's not rascal. Rascal means he's innocent also. The child does not know that, "If I touch fire it will burn." Therefore he's a rascal. But because he is child, innocent, he'll not be excused. The rascal and innocent on the same category. Innocence of law is not, no excuse. If you go to the court, if you say, "Sir I did not now there is law like this," that does not mean... You must suffer. Why Kṛṣṇa comes? He gives advice that "You do this. Don't remain innocent and rascal. Then you'll be happy." Why should you stick to the rascaldom? He's personally advising. He says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Why you are sticking to Hinduism and Muslimism and Christianism? Why? That is rascaldom. You take to His advice and you be happy.

Devotee: But these religions are just material. These Hindu, Christian, Muslim, they're following these things because that is simply their destiny? They don't know how to please God, so that's simply part of their happiness and distress?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, now Kṛṣṇa is asking, "You give up this rascaldom." You do it. Don't go to the history. He says, "You give up." You give up. That's all. Then you are perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are going to the history? History may be something else, but now He says directly "Give up," you give up. That's all. Finish this business. Hm. That is... The point is clear now?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then go on.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number four. Even a well read, widely traveled, and enlightened editor like the late Śrī Frank Moraes... I think that's how you... M-o-r-a-e-s. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. He's late though.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He has died, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's dead. He was enlightened. "...equated Hindu ethos with castism." He equated that Hindu culture, or Hindu ethos, and castism is one and the same. "Will the fundamental values of Hinduism be in any way affected by the eradication of castism, towards which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?"

Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described. Satya śamo damo titikṣva ārjava jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyam. So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system which is contaminated by false conception, or birth right conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brāhmaṇa or to become kṣatriya. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa, that should be taken. Otherwise you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain. Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful."? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never said that. The father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlāda. Or a son... Not that the, one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility, but it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brāhmaṇa. That is wanted. Why do you take that "Here is a son of truthful man; therefore he is brāhmaṇa"? That is misconception. You have to pick up the truthful men all over the world and classify them as brāhmaṇa. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right. You cannot abolish the truthful class of men. There are... You'll find truthful men everywhere. So you have to pick up. So Kṛṣṇa says that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa-karma... You pick up the quality of men and put them in the brahminical class, and then next, kṣatriya class, then vaiśya class, then śūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful. More or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You're saying, rather, it's a classification according to the quality of a man's...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. That must be there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And what will be the benefit of classifying men according to their qualities?

Prabhupāda: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected, truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualifications, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a śūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting 25 dollars or 50 dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all śūdras, fourth-class men. Then there will be society chaos.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another part of this same question: if the harijanas, who constitute a sizable population amongst the Hindus, are made to feel that their very religion...

Prabhupāda: These are all artificial. The harijana word was used by Gandhi unnecessarily for a class of men who are not fit for the position. Harijana means "the men of Hari." Just like Nārada. Nārada is called harijana. Great devotee is called harijana, "the persons related with Hari." But if you select some bhangis and camaras and keep them as he is and rubberstamp it, "Here is a harijana," what will be the effect? There is no harm to pick up a low class man and to elevate him to the position of harijana. There is no impediment. You can do. But if you keep him a low class man and if you stamp him harijana, then what will be benefit? Just like we are initiating selected men. "Are you ready to follow these rules and regulation? When he says, then "Come on. Become harijana." Not that "I'll keep myself in that same abominable condition of life and I shall become harijana." So this "harijana" word has come from Gandhi. He did not try to make him real harijana. He simply rubberstamped him. So what is the value of this harijana?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another section to this question. In other words, how can all sections of Hindus be made to take an equal interest and have the same sense of belonging to the Hindu religion?

Prabhupāda: Why you sticking to the Hindu religion? Any Hindu will accept Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. So why not ask them to take Kṛṣṇa? Why so-called Hinduism? Who is a Hindu who will deny the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Is he a Hindu? Every Hindu observes Janmāṣṭamī, the birthday of Kṛṣṇa. So why do they not take Kṛṣṇa's advice and remain practically Hindu? They will not take advice of Kṛṣṇa, and they, how they can claim to be Hindu?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can all people have an equal interest in religion despite their different

classifications?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, that any human civilized man, he has got some religion. So religion, basic principle of religion is with reference to God. So here is God, What God says, if you take that system, then it wil be perfect, not only for the Hindus, for Christian, for Mohammedans, for everyone. And that is being practically done in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have got devotees from all groups of human society and they are taking to it. It is practical. There is no difficuly. So Hindus, Muslims, Christian, everyone take to this Kṛṣṇa religion, Kṛṣṇite. Kṛṣṇian. (laughter) Not Christian, but Kṛṣṇian. The word christo is also a Greek word. From this christo the Christ has come. So instead of c-h-r-i, k-r-i, the same thing. Christian  Kṛṣṇian, or Christian. Krishta is also another broken, I mean, another spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we say Krishta. My younger brother, his name was Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Krishta. So Krishta, Christian. So actually, if we take the root meaning, Christian means Krishnian or Krishtian. So that is a controversial point, but everyone can take to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be settled up. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... Make everything clear.

                                                                                                                                                                        441658

Prabhupāda: And that Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijïāsaḥ. Now here Arjuna is experienced, "You are the Supreme Brahman." So he has seen the Supreme Brahman. So you make Arjuna guru, Kṛṣṇa guru. Arjuna is representative of Kṛṣṇa, friend of Kṛṣṇa. So why do you go to a bogus guru? You must be cheated. Guru is essential. It is necessary. But take the real guru. But if you go to the bogus guru, you must be disappointed. For your treatment you need to go to a physician. That's all. When you are diseased you cannot say, "No, no, I don't want to..." It is necessary. But go to the real physician. Don't go to a cheater. He has no knowledge in the medical science, and he places himself as "I am physician, MD." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary, that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is real guru? Real guru is Kṛṣṇa or one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna. Take them. Then you'll be benefitted. And if you go to a bogus man who does not know Kṛṣṇa, who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you must be cheated. So the answer is guru is absolute necessary. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. This is Vedic injunction, that one must go. But he must go to the real guru. And who is real guru? Who knows Kṛṣṇa. Take, for example, Arjuna, how he studied Kṛṣṇa. And he says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma. Read the translation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa, proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."

Prabhupāda: Arjuna is rectifying this because people may say, "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, he is accepting Him as guru." No, Arjuna says, "Not only I, but other authorities, they also accept." So it is..., everything is clear, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He should be accepted as guru or His representative should be accepted guru. Then it will be... So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. You take instruction from Him and be benefited. But one who is carrying this message, he is also authorized. Just like one money order, it is coming through the post office, but an ordinary peon is handing over the money. But he is representative of post office. Actually, the money order is being delivered by the post office, general post office. But it is coming through an ordinary peon. But because he is authorized to deliver you, he is also post office. He's as good as the post office. Just you have got a letter box, a small box, but if you put your letter there, your letter will surely go ten thousand miles away. Therefore, although it is a small box, you don't think it is small box. It is whole post office. Similarly, anyone who is carrying the message of Kṛṣṇa, don't think that he's ordinary man. If you imitate one box like that post box and put your letter, for thousand years it will lie down there. Because it is not authorized. So if somebody says this small box, red box, is as good as the post office, one may say, "Huh, this is small box. How it can be as good as the post office?" But you see. You post your letter, it will go. Therefore, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Guru is directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Because he is presenting the words of Supreme Personality of Godhead without any deterioration. Therefore he is so honored. So therefore the conclusion is guru is necessary and guru is he who is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise he's bogus.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about the so-called gurus that take a little bit here and a little bit there?

Prabhupāda: So-called gurus, they are so-called gurus. They are not gurus. That is already explained. If one does not speak what Kṛṣṇa speaks, he is not guru. If you accept so-called guru, that is your misfortune. What can be done?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of them will say some things that Kṛṣṇa says, but they'll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons?

Prabhupāda: He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist. He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased. So he is not guru. He's a servant. He wants to serve the so-called disciples so that he may be satisfied and pay him something. He's servant. He's not guru. Guru is the master. You cannot disobey guru. But if you become a servant, you want to please the disciple by flattering him to get his money, then you are not guru, you are servant. Just like a servant pleases the master. He's not guru. He's servant. So our position should be servant, yes, but servant of the Supreme. So guru means heavy. You cannot utilize him for satisfying your whims. That is not guru.

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 Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. One may... Saṁskārād bhaved dvija. And Sanātana Gosvāmī says that

yathā kaïcanataṁ yati

kaṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena

dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇam

As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the śāstra. If you are able to do it, you can do it, turn gold some of these bell metals. So the example is given that as the bell metal, base metal, can be turned into gold by chemical process, similarly, by dīkṣā-vidhānena, by proper initiation by the bona fide spiritual master, everyone can be turned into dvija, twice-born. Dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇam. Nṛṇam means all men. It is not there is no discrimination, that only the Hindus, only the Indians, or only the so-called brāhmaṇas can be turned. Everyone can be turned. That is the injunction. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to do that, trying everyone to become a bona fide brāhmaṇa. Without becoming a brāhmaṇa you cannot become Vaiṣṇava. So this reformatory process is recommended in the śāstras. What is the question?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇòālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation. So according to Pāïcarātriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaiṣṇava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brāhmaṇa. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Viṣṇu, then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. That is perfection of life.

                                                                                                                                                                        441758

Prabhupāda: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Sākṣād, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this

platform, how to love God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous. 

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

You are very good, you are following your religious principle very strictly, adherently. That's all right. But what about your love of God? "Oh, that I do not know." So śāstra says, śrama eva hi... It is simply waste of time, and simply laboring. That's all. If you have not learned to love God, then what is the meaning of your religion? Then, when you're actually on the platform of love of God, you understand your relationship with God, that "I am part and parcel of God. Not only I am part and parcel of God, this dog is also part and parcel of.... Every living entity." Then you'll extend love for animal also. If you actually love God, then your love for insect also is there because you understand that "This insect, it has got a different body only, but he is also part and parcel, or my brother." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then you cannot maintain slaughterhouse. If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion. Then śrama eva hi kevalam. Your going to the temple and church

and everything is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Because you do not understand God. You have no love for God. That is going on, all over the world. They're stamping under some sect, but there is no real religion. So in order to bring them all in one platform, they have to accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you do not accept in the beginning Kṛṣṇa, that He is the supreme, then you try to understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is education. There is somebody supreme. So if I say, because I am Hindu, I am Indian, that "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme," you may say, "Then why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is Indian." "No. He is God. Just like the sun rises first in India, then comes to Europe. But that does not mean the sun is different. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, although appeared in India, now He has come to Western countries, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You try to understand whether Kṛṣṇa is not God or God. But He is God. There is no doubt about it. If you have got intelligence to understand what is God, then try to understand. But He is God undoubtedly. So take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Then everyone comes on the same platform, the religious platform, one religion, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question 19, this is…

Prabhupāda: Now, this is clear or not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes.

Prabhupāda: Anyone? We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our business is to surrender to Him. And Kṛṣṇa personally advises that "You surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." This is religion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we meet people in our preaching activities. They may, of course, claim to be very devout Christian or Muslim, but at the same time they will blaspheme Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible that such persons can actually be associates of God?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are so many Christians, so many Jews, so many Mohammedan, and Hindus. Everyone is there. It is a question of understanding. So in the beginning if... But if he's serious to understand what is God, then he will accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. If he knows what is God, then he'll understand, "Here is God." If he remains in darkness, he does not know what is God, then how he'll understand Kṛṣṇa? He'll understand Kṛṣṇa as one of us. That's all. But if he knows what is God then he'll understand. Yes, here is God, Just like if a person knows what is gold, then anywhere gold, he'll understand,  Here is gold." It does not mean only gold, in certain shop only gold is available. But if he knows what is God, what is meaning of God, that he will find in Kṛṣṇa in fullness. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.The śāstra says how He is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavān. You should understand and see from the activities of Kṛṣṇa whether He is not Bhagavān. It requires brain to understand. I say, "Here is God." Now it is up to you. If you know what is God, then test it, and then you'll accept God. If you do not know how to test it, then you may refuse. That is another thing. You'll accept iron as gold. That is your ignorance. You do not know what is gold. But if you actually know what is gold, you will accept Kṛṣṇa as God, there is no doubt about it. So this is the only platform, Bhagavad-gītā. Everyone come and take to Kṛṣṇa and understand God and learn how to love Him and your life is perfect.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if the Christians are saying that "This is the only platform, the Bible," and the Muslims are saying, "This is the only platform, Koran," and the community of followers of Bhagavad...

Prabhupāda: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof--say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love? There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, ṣaò-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion.  hat is first class religion. Is that clear or not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When there is question of love, then you must know what is God, then love. But if you do not know who is God, then how do you love Him?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Kṛṣṇa is God, and we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think?

Kulādri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God.

Prabhupāda: Then? What kind of love it is?

Kulādri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuìkte bhojayate caiva ṣaò-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuìkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love...The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God. There cannot be any other alternative. You must know the person who is God. Then you exchange. That we are teaching. We are asking our disciples to rise early in the morning, offer maìgala ārati, then bhoga ārati. Are we so fools, rascals, that we are wasting time in worshiping a doll like that? Sometimes they think like that. But that is not the fact. You know definitely, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is God, and we must love Him like this." That is the superexcellence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do everything definitely on positive platform. Is that clear? Huh? Or anyone, any question?

Pradyumna: Then... You said we must know God before we can love Him. So that means devotional service is preceded by knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad-gītā. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Kṛṣṇa, You are paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Kṛṣṇa proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible. So this is the science how to know God, Bhagavad-gītā. The preliminary. If you want to know more, then read Bhāgavatam. And if you are in intense love with God, then next, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, how the intensification can be more intensified. That is Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary book to understand God and surrender. And from the surrendering point, further progress, that is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And when the love is intense, to make it more intensified, that is Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, mad after God. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. "I find everything vacant without Kṛṣṇa." That is the supreme ecstasy. So these things cannot happen (chuckles) without love. If you love somebody, then if he's not there you find everything vacant. Otherwise why? There are so many things. "How," people will say, "you are seeing vacant? Everything is filled up." That is another stage, transcendental platform. Lover and beloved, they can understand. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. That is the supreme stage of love. Is that clear or not?

Pradyumna: There's just one more thing. What's the minimum knowledge one must have to...

Prabhupāda: God is great. That's all. God is great. Kṛṣṇa proved that He's great. Therefore He's God. Everyone says, "God is great." Allah akbar, Muslims say. God is great. It is translated, "God is great." And Hindu says, paraṁ brahma. So God is great. So Kṛṣṇa proved that He is all-great. Therefore He is God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He proved it that He is the great. Therefore He's God. If you accept God is great, and if you find somebody, he is great in everything, then he's God. How can I deny it? At least, you can see Kṛṣṇa great by His Bhagavad-gītā. It is still going on. Five thousand years passed, still Bhagavad-gītā is accepted as the greatest book of knowledge all over the world. Even among the Christians, among the Muslims, those who are really learned, they take it, "Yes." That is greatness of Kṛṣṇa, the knowledge. Who can give such knowledge? That is the proof that He is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya viryasya yasasaḥ... Jïāna, knowledge. Where is such knowledge throughout the whole world? Everything, every line is sublime knowledge. If one studies scrutinizingly Bhagavad-gītā, you find Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord.

Room Conversation                                 June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban                                                      442209

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them, there's no..., everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cow hide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaìga heads for the khol, and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection.

Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda says Why superstitious? The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow, the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say, in India, how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "If you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?"

Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept.

Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat.

Prabhupāda: Madman...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it.

Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat.

Hari-śauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply.

Prabhupāda: No why should...? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for..., he's permanently. Why should you kill?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is...

Prabhupāda: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the old flesh is not...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you do not..., you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This should be the system.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin, we can utilize it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaìga making. So give us the skin. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge.

Hari-śauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse...

Prabhupāda: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop, you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything."

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is... Think over.

Hari-śauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything...

Prabhupāda: He's not going to pay us. You simply take it and sell it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sell meat..., for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money...

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the conditions.

Prabhupāda: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business.

Hari-śauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then...

Prabhupāda: That is artificial.

Hari-śauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have.

Prabhupāda: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the agreement. After all, we require the skin for our khol making.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For the farm straps?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making things, straps.

Hari-śauri: They're not doing it now, though.

Prabhupāda: But we should not do it ourselves.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis.

Prabhupāda: That is not our business.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us.

Prabhupāda: Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them.

Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that.

Prabhupāda: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical.

Hari-śauri: That's very good.

Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that you are eating, you can eat. And we want the skin, let us give him. What is the wrong there?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perfect economics.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Could such a thing be done today in India also?

Prabhupāda: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be. That is the... Who does not eat meat? First of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Practical preaching.

Hari-śauri: We can't stop meat-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward.

Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and caṇòāla. Caṇòālas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇòāla class, they eat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh.

Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian.

Prabhupāda: Christians.

Hari-śauri: Even they're exporting beef from India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they don't consider whether it's a young fish or an old fish.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is all wrong conception.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say..., simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older.

Prabhupāda: They are eating so many rotten things.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it.

Prabhupāda: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow. Puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Clam chowder? So many things.

Prabhupāda: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing "What is this? I asked after lobster soup."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In England? Oysters?

Prabhupāda: No, lobsters.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With the big pinchers.

Hari-śauri: They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise.

Prabhupāda: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster fat, and black creepers, and cashews, they exported. The big, big business firms are exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that.

Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich.

Prabhupāda: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it in there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, within three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottles. That is called naphi. And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi, and they'll relish it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barbers?

Prabhupāda: Burma.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the most...

Prabhupāda: And when you fry luci, all the other tenants will come "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened..., my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāìga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry puri, the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) "Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?" And the naphi, they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the ultimate.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars of snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it.

Hari-śauri: Pickled snakes.

Prabhupāda: Snakes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid.

Prabhupāda: They put in the jar alive?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar.

Hari-śauri: It's like a pickle, they pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take.

Prabhupāda: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They cut off the head, flesh.

Prabhupāda: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake. Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They eat anything.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So many abominable things.

Hari-śauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy--I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What, you're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter)

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was one big, big professor we met in the college...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to understand that prasādam is (indistinct). (laughter)

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat--the worm, the cockroach, the beetle--and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects.

Hari-śauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate-coated ants, grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think that way, anyway.

Hari-śauri: They all do.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think the French eat abominable foods.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting.

Prabhupada: Kadarya bhaksana.

Hari-śauri: It’s difficult to imagine what kind of a fate we would have had if you hadn’t come and started this movement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is so scientific.We’ve seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It’s a fact I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher.

Hari-śauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that?

Prabhupāda: Oh, no. We can use it.

Hari-śauri: The skim milk, after they've...

Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain.

Hari-śauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they’ve finished giving it to the cows, then if there’s any extra, they throw it away.

Prabhupāda: How give it to the cows?

Hari-śauri: They feed it to the cows.

Prabhupāda: They eat?

Hari-śauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then, if there’s any extra, they throw it away, they put on the..., mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land.

Prabhupāda: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā.

Hari-śauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not yogurt, chānā, what you call, curd?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cheese, like cheese.

Prabhupāda: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations.

Hari-śauri: I'll mention it to Kulādri then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned also about the whey that you get.

Prabhupāda: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Making dough?

Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, just like you dip the cāpāṭi, dāl, you can dip whey. You can save dāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what I thought, that's why I was asking.

Prabhupāda: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized.

Hari-śauri: Everything.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get?

Prabhupāda: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human beings. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparations, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from... There is no question of religious sentiment. From practical…Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time…

 

 

You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life…Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this and the next life. That is a fact.

 

 

So (indistinct), the paid man, they want some money, that's all. How they can manage temple? It is impossible…This movement can be pushed on vigorously so long we are devotees, otherwise it will be finished. It cannot be conducted by any outsiders. No. Only the devotees. That is the secret. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check.

 

 

…If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Kṛṣṇa wants that.

 

 

We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad-gītā is full of information from all standpoint. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human... He must accept. There is... The civilization is doomed.

 

 

And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Kṛṣṇa is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Kṛṣṇa is embracing. So because we want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction.

 

No, you, we are speaking go-rakṣya. That is not point of view of killing…He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows.

 

 

…For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable.

 

 

The ones who don't want to work and help produce this food?

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training.

 

 

They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs…The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living.

 

 

So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama.

 

 

Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brāhmaṇas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Rāmacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently--they were taking advice from learned brāhmaṇas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brāhmaṇas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be kṣatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If śūdras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all

 

 

You cannot have any private property; everything you have to declare. Otherwise, it will be taken by force.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You economically prove that this is the best way of life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY THREE

Arrival Room Conversation                      July 2, 1976, Washington, D.C.                                                     442573

Prabhupāda: Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from... This is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt--everyone eats salt, nobody can avoid salt--it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into..., "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, let us take it, whole pot, that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good; simply take sex life, go on and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle, little salt, that's all, that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animals? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows give us milk, very nutritious. "Oh, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparations, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from... There is no question of religious sentiment. From practical.

Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right.

Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere; therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse. Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūòho nābhijānāti loko mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time.

Rūpānuga: But they will appreciate the purity.

Prabhupāda: It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Come on. Sit down.

 

"Life Comes From Life" Slideshow Discussions,                    July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.                      443037

"Life is eternal," one can argue, "then what is wrong? Even I kill, the soul is alive." No, the same argument that this soul was to live in a particular type of body under the laws of nature, and you have checked, and he has to take again a similar body to fulfill the duration. Therefore you have done criminality. I have got lease for live in this room for certain period. If prior to the expiry of the lease, if the landlord drives me away, that is illegal. He will be punished.

Devotee (1): Would that also be due to that soul's karma, that he has gone from being aborted on to another body?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily, but you create a karma. You are responsible for that.

Hari-śauri: So it's not necessarily that he's receiving some sinful reaction from past work that he's not allowed to enter.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but you are responsible for that. Because you are driving me from this apartment by force. Actually, in a higher sense, that is accepted, that he was to be driven away. But because you are driving, you are responsible for that.

 

Morning Walk,                                         July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.                                                     443578

Prabhupāda: It will grow mosquitoes, mosquito plant.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mosquitoes. When the devotees came back from India, many got malaria, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I think we got to do something next year.

Prabhupāda: Get a mosquito curtain. That's all. Get a mosquito curtain. In India everywhere there is mosquito. I think in your country also.

 

Room Conversation                                  July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.                                                     445028

Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life.

Devotees: Yes, jaya, mercy.

Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this and the next life. That is a fact.

444846

Prabhupāda: They cannot. As soon as anything goes to state especially in India, goes to the government track(?), it is spoiled. Government means all thieves and rogues. How they'll manage? They'll simply swallow whatever they get. Government means... They cannot manage, they are not devotees. It should be in the hands of the devotees. So (indistinct), the paid man, they want some money, that's all. How they can manage temple? It is impossible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes a political problem.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes involved in politics. So that... Nothing to do with the worship.

Prabhupāda: The government should give to the hands of the devotee, we are recognized devotees, ISKCON. If they want, really management. We are managing, so many centers, on account of devotees. It is not possible to manage all these things by paid men. It is not possible.

Devotee (2): No.

Prabhupāda: They'll never... They'll not... This movement can be pushed on vigorously so long we are devotees, otherwise it will be finished. It cannot be conducted by any outsiders. No. Only the devotees. That is the secret.

Devotee (2): You cannot pay a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (2): You cannot buy a devotee.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Devotee (2): You can buy someone to sweep the floor, but you cannot buy a preacher.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check.

Devotee (2): Devotees should take over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, that is... That is good for the world.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Kṛṣṇa wants that. He wanted the Pāṇòavas should be in charge of the government. Therefore He took part in the fighting. "Yes, you should be the... All the Kauravas should be killed, and Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira installed." That is the dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. He wants everything goes very smoothly and people become God conscious. So their life be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa's plan. That, "These rascal misleading and therefore... the (indistinct) the human life has been spoiled."

                                                                                                                                                                        444868

Devotee (2): Will this movement take over the world, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: At least you keep one idea. There is possibility.

Devotee (2): I think it will be very big.

Prabhupāda: That is possible. If we become serious and sincere, then it will go on, undoubtedly.

Devotee (2): See how big it grew just in ten years. Today is our anniversary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Our ten year anniversary today. So in ten years we have gotten so big, by geometric progression in 20 years how big will we be? Thousands and thousands of people, chanting and dancing.

Prabhupāda: And there is chance. Simply by chanting you can attract so many people.

Devotee (2): Yes, I think so. They're coming already. You chanted and so many people came.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Already in the, your English vocabulary, in America, actually they use many Sanskrit vocabularies now.

Prabhupāda: What is that? (laughs)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they believe that (indistinct) is the chairman of religion at Emery University, he told me that in about thirty years or so this, our movement...

Prabhupāda: They're giving back toward meaning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You can learn so many... Sanskrit...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. Our students to pick up some Sanskrit words. Ātmā, jīva, like that. He was telling me that in about thirty or forty years our ISKCON, our movement will have a great impact in the social life there.

Prabhupāda: We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad-gītā is full of information from all standpoint. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human... He must accept. There is... The civilization is doomed.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                    July 7, 1976, Baltimore                                                           445531

Rūpānuga: ...how you explained that our movement is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Rūpānuga: Just so they don't think it is only ten years old. (devotees bring in a cake or Prabhupāda distributes, eating, etc.)

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Rūpānuga: It is very heavy cake.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Very nice. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. This is the movement of ānanda, pleasure only. Kṛṣṇa is ānandamaya, and if you remain with Kṛṣṇa you'll become ānandamaya. A rich man, he's enjoying, and if you remain in association with the rich man, you also enjoy. Where is the difficulty? A very rich man, and his associates, they are also rich men. Is it not? And if you remain with poor man, you are also poor.

Rūpānuga: You've explained that the servant in the house of the king, he is almost as good as the king.

Prabhupāda: No, he is better than king. King, he eats whatever is offered to him, but they can eat whatever they like. Is it not? Who is restricting them? (aside:) You can open that. Just stand towards there. Yes.

Hari-śauri: Is that, cutting the cake, is that a Vedic..., did they used to do that in Vedic times, or is that a Western invention? We were just wondering about it.

Prabhupāda: Prasāda distribution. Either you cut or take with hand, the same thing. It doesn't make any difference.

Rūpānuga: On the cake it was marked on one side 1966, on the other side 1976. Like a coin. They make coins celebrating, commemorating.

Prabhupāda: And the cake is made very nicely. Who has made it?

Vṛṣākapi: This one girl, her name is Lalitā-sakhī. She stayed up all night.

Rūpānuga: And then it was decorated by Ambujākṣa, who is an artist.

Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy. What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. When this divorce system was introduced?

Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin?

Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he's the rascal.

Pradyumna: He had many wives, he wanted to divorce his wife and he could not under Catholic Church, so he started his own church, Church of England.

Prabhupāda: Because many wives were not allowed?

Hari-śauri: No, they had a system, one wife, but he got fed up with them. He chopped off the heads of two of them and then... It was considered a bit outrageous. So then he wanted to divorce and have another wife after the third or fourth one.

Prabhupāda: So he used to cut them, the head?

Hari-śauri: Yes, two of them he did. And then the Catholic Church excommunicated him.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in Vedic civilization they keep, they have more than one wife. So what is the use of killing? Why one should kill? We find from the history, Dhruva Mahārāja's mother and stepmother, there were some critical words, and Dhruva Mahārāja became very, very angry. So the critical words and wives, different wives, that may be, but why one should cut off the head? Dhruva Mahārāja's mother said when Dhruva Mahārāja began to cry before the mother, mother said "My dear child, what can I do? How can I help you? Your father does not care for me, even as maidservant, what to speak of I am queen, I am the senior queen. So this gentleman does not care of me even as maidservant. How can I help you? If God helps you, then..." That was her statement. So that does not mean because the king did not like, she should be beheaded. What is this nonsense? If he is,(?)... may be... After all, he is king. He may not like first wife. Actually, there was no scarcity of comfort, but liking may not be, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be accepted as wife. Kings were allowed to marry more than one wife. Why to accept another wife means another wife should be killed? What is this? Everything nonsense. King can marry more than one wife. And at the time of marriage they were given so many woman. Because the woman population is greater than the man, always. So when the King is married, along with the queen, many other friends of the queen they would go with the king. They live in the same palace, same palace. Sometimes they had children, dāsī-putra. Just like Vidura. Vidura was not queen's son. One of these women friends. So that was allowed.

Rūpānuga: They were raised with the real sons.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rūpānuga: Treated nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that because he is born of a dāsī no care should be taken. No, equal. But he cannot inherit the throne, that's all. There was no question. Even Muhammadans, they used to marry more than one wife. Two hundred years ago, one Muslim Nawab of Lucknow, Wazel Dusayet(?), he had hundred and sixty wives. The palaces are still there, Lucknow, hundred and sixty palaces. Why the Nawab? Our Kṛṣṇa, not hundred sixty but another zero, another, hundred sixty thousand, two zeros. Hundred sixty plus two zeros. They were not neglected. But He is God, He expanded Himself also, sixteen thousand forms, so that no wife would feel separation. So if one husband can maintain properly more than one wife, he's allowed. But the wife must be taken care of properly. Not that because I have got more than one wife, one is neglected, one is... No. She must be taken care of.

Vṛṣākapi: We were talking the other day, not in our society though.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Vṛṣākapi: Not in the ISKCON society, though.

Prabhupāda: In the Kali-yuga one cannot maintain even one wife, what to speak of more than one. They are afraid to marry one wife. I first heard this, one elderly lady in New York. At that time, I was newcomer. I asked her, "Why don't you get your son married?" "Yes, he can be married, provided he can maintain wife," she said. So these things were unknown to us. In India, whether he'll be able to maintain... Just like I was married when I was third-year student. Where is the income? There is no income, but still I was married.

Hari-śauri: That was formerly the Western system, that the prospective son-in-law would be checked first to see whether he would be able to maintain the girl.

Prabhupāda: No, that is everywhere. But expectation, he is educated, he'll be able. The first thing is in due time, either the girl or the boy must be married, that is Indian system. In due time. Boy not exceeding twenty years or twenty-five years, at most, and girl not exceeding fifteen years, sixteen years, must be. Saṁskāra, this is one of the saṁskāras. Just like garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, this is also one saṁskāra, and marriage is also saṁskāra. Must be married. Daśa-vidha-saṁskāra, ten kinds of saṁskāras, out of which marriage is one of the saṁskāras. And kanyā-dāya. Kanyā-dāya, dāya means by law the father is bound to get his daughter married, by law. He cannot escape the responsibility. This is father's duty.

Rūpānuga: You gave the example that if sometimes the man becomes bankrupt he goes to court and the judge says, "You must take this money you have left to your creditors and be satisfied," and he can escape in that way. But the one duty that a father has is getting the daughter married; that he cannot escape.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called dāya, dāya-bhāk, legally he is bound. He may not get his son married, but the daughter must be married. This is father's duty.

Rūpānuga: It is sinful, actually considered sinful, if he doesn't do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because without father the daughter cannot be properly married. Daughter or son, everyone, if the father, mother, by their supervision, the boys and girls get married, that is very good. They see how they will be happy. And without father, mother, simply by lusty desires, that selection may be wrong and that becomes actually happened. Therefore there is divorce.

Rūpānuga: In this country the father and the mother, they tell the daughter that "You go out and bring a husband home. You go out and find a young boy and bring him home." And they make them go out in the street to find a husband.

Prabhupāda: I know that. Sometimes they are advised to do business. I know that. When, in our society, in the beginning, I started marriage, the father, mother, did not like it. Nowadays it has become custom, in India also, let the girl have many friends, but don't marry unless you find out a suitable man. Society degrades. Actually the Indian system is that when the girl is utmost twelve years, not more than that, ten to twelve years, she must be married. And the father would see, not necessarily in every case the boy is rich man or educated. If he's healthy and if he can work, he'll "Take charge." Then fortune, faith.

Rūpānuga: That is responsible.

Vṛṣākapi: How should we do this in our ISKCON society with these young girls?

Prabhupāda: Of course, we are not very much concerned with the social affairs, but still, if we can organize society, that will be very good. That will be peaceful.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Might be possible on the farms.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Away from the bad social environment of the cities.

Prabhupāda: The system is the boys and girls should be married earlier, and they should work, and there should be no divorce. But whether your country law will allow, that is another difficulty. You may introduce something, but the state law may not approve of it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think there is any minimum age for marriage, simply the parents have to give their consent under a certain age. There's no minimum age.

Hari-śauri: There is in England. In a lot of countries now there's a minimum age. No, they cannot be married under that age. Women sixteen, men eighteen.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with parents' consent.

Rūpānuga: ISKCON parents, if the girl is fifteen, like you said, fifteen, then the ISKCON parent may give permission, that is legal. Not only that, but our own men, as I have done in Virginia, I have registered as minister in the state, and I can perform marriages. So our own men can register to perform marriages.

Prabhupāda: Another difficulty is the boy and the girl, they also do not stick. That is another difficulty.

Rūpānuga: That is the biggest one.

Vṛṣākapi: Every father, he wants his son to stay brahmacārī and become sannyāsa. So who will be willing to give up their son for marriage at a young age? (pause)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: You were saying the other day, actually the only solution is if everybody chants.

Prabhupāda: That is the only solution.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were experiencing it just now, everyone was so happy chanting.

Prabhupāda: If one can remain without marriage, that is first-class.

Rūpānuga: Women also?

Prabhupāda: Women also. What is the use of this material husband? Make Kṛṣṇa husband. Kṛṣṇa's prepared to become everything--love Him as husband, love Him as son, love Him, friend. Kṛṣṇa is prepared.

Rūpānuga: I have see in our society that if the preaching is strong amongst the leaders and there's serious chanting, leaders see that everyone is chanting and happily engaged, that there is no disturbance. If the preaching is weak, there is sexual disturbance.

Prabhupāda: Then the material desire becomes prominent.

Rūpānuga: Then everyone becomes lusty. (end)

 

Evening Darsana                                     Washington, D. C., July 8, 1976                                                     445688

Prabhupāda: No, you, we are speaking go-rakṣya. That is not point of view of killing. There are other animals. We do not say that you stop. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cow. You can kill other insignificant animals which has no importance. Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Kṛṣṇa mentioned specifically, go-rakṣya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, paśu-hiṁsā, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother. If you... Anyone who supplies milk from the body, she is mother. According to Vedic civilization, cow is one of the seven mothers. There are seven mothers: the real mother, ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī, the wife of spiritual master; then queen, rāja-patnikā. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. In this way, especially, seven mothers, dhenu, dhenu means cow, and dhātrī, nurse, she is also mother. So from that point of view, cow is mother, and you cannot kill on any ground the mother. That is not good reasoning. You are taking the last drop of milk. In South Africa you said?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have one slaughterhouse and just beside, I have seen, just beside there is dairy. So at night they bring the cows in to the dairy, milk them to the last drop, and then to the slaughterhouse and all night screaming. I heard because the Indian neighborhood was about five hundred yards from the slaughterhouse. Then in the morning you'd drive by and the carcasses are hanging up.

Prabhupāda: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization?

Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not, which are basically bulls given high estrogens and bred in that way.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction that cow, milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it, Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetables are concerned, Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "If anyone offers Me even patraṁ," patram puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam,"I eat them." So we take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. So Kṛṣṇa says "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose. And those who want to eat meat or fish, they can do so, but at least they can avoid the important life of cow. That is recommended. So far we are concerned, we are eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam, foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, and this, there is no such thing as meat or fish, or egg, but we are living. Not that because we do not eat meat or fish, we are dying. We can eat very easily. Anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Actually, if we take food grains like wheat, rice, pulses, vegetables, fruits, milk, that is quite sufficient, nutritious foodstuff, full with vitamins and, what is called, protein, carbohydrate. That is sufficient. Why should we kill? At least, cow? That is our request, because Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Kṛṣṇa is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Kṛṣṇa is embracing. So because we want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction.

Guest (1): Prabhupāda? For every animal except the cow, you said, like a..., does a person have to pay off a one-to-one ratio for the animal killed? He just has to come back one time for, like, killing a goat? Is it just one time then, instead of many times?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed?

Prabhupāda: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable.

                                                                                                                                                                        445739

Prabhupāda: We think, according to our philosophy, everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, and we are all sons. So everyone has the right to use the property of the father. So that consciousness should be spread. This barrier of nationalism is against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why there should be? Actually everything belongs to God. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. The sky, the land, the water, they are all creation of God, God's property. But we should not take more than what is allotted to us. That is real life. Otherwise, I have practically studied that there is enough land. Just like in your country, in America, there is enough land, not utilized. They can be properly utilized, and if food grains are produced, there is no question of scarcity of food all over the world. Not only in America--in Africa, in Australia. (break) If we get nourishing food, every one of us, so there is no economic problem.

Mr. Boyd: How do we handle these people who don't seem to want to carry their own weight, though, Prabhupāda? The ones who don't want to work and help produce this food?

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk--from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee--then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called śūdras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men. First class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division. Brāhmaṇa... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.

Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.

Vipina: His question is that now the government is corrupt, so what can be immediately done?

Prabhupāda: How there can be, because the democracy? You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, śūdra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a śūdra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brāhmaṇa, he's not kṣatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brāhmaṇas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Rāmacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently--they were taking advice from learned brāhmaṇas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brāhmaṇas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be kṣatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If śūdras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues. So as the thieves and rogues capture you on the street and ask "Whatever you have got, give, otherwise I shall kill you," so this will be the position in the Kali-yuga. It is happening now. You cannot have any private property; everything you have to declare. Otherwise, it will be taken by force. So people will be very much embarrassed by two things: one thing is taxation, and another thing will be scarcity of food. In this way, all the people all over the world will be embarrassed, so much so that they will leave their home, hearth and home, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam. Being separated from family and property, they will take shelter in the hilly ranges or in the forest to get relief. This will be the position. Harassment, so much harassment, by nature, by government. So therefore for complete happy society, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. All intelligent persons, they should join this movement and reform the present social, political, religious. All field of activities, they should reform. Then people will be happy. Not only happy in this life, but also next life.

 

Morning Walk                                               New York, July 10, 1976                                                           447096

Rāmeśvara: The city of New York is the most mismanaged city in the United States. The city government has a big debt. They borrow money from the banks and they cannot pay it back. So they..., the banks were closing the debt, the loans, calling for the loan, and they had no money, so they were firing everyone and there was great unemployment, and finally the United States government had to give them a free gift of money to bail them out. It is the worst management of any city in America. One of the big reasons is because of welfare. They give away free money to so many people in New York who don't want to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, welfare is actually waste of money. But social construction is so bad they have to give welfare. If they take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we can stop this welfare money, let them pay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing?

Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs)

Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on? "The service has become..." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another... But artificially to do something is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right?

Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required.

Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial.

 

There is no condition. "Simply chant and come here. We shall arrange for your food, we shall arrange for your shelter, everything."

 

This is going on. British Empire means bring money, hook or crook, in London, and you get the title, "lord," "baron," this... This was their policy. "Sir." All hooligans, thieves, rogues, they were made big, big respectable people…So people become mad after money, somehow or other bring money. There was no other culture.

 

Therefore all the śāstras, they bring it within Christian era. Before that, India was uncivilized. And if they accept all the Vedic literature, so exalted, then they have to accept Indian civilization. That is their propaganda.

 

 

Interviewer: Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?

Prabhupāda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.

 

I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea.

 

No, without finance we can go on…Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not have any financial help, but His movement is going on. It does not depend on a..., on financial. It is independent. Spiritual movement is independent of any material help. That is spiritual movement… Any time, it does not depend on financial help.

 

So we get enough milk, enough food grains, enough fruits. So there is no economic problem. Our purpose is to save time from unnecessary necessities of life, from unnecessary necessities of life, to save time and utilize the time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness…They are instructed in that way, plain living, high thinking.

 

Yes, we are maintaining animals, giving them food, giving them security of life in all our farms the animals are very free…Anyone who comes to our society we give shelter, we give food, we give instruction, we give dress, everything. Without any condition.

 

Interviewer: A question: you are now the leader and the spiritual master. Who will take your place?

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will dictate who will take my place.

 

So why your cloth is so dirty…For a sannyāsī it is very nice. So people may not dislike it, but for a sannyāsī this is very nice.

 

So farming is going? Farming?…And milk?....I want this, that you have sufficient grain, sufficient milk, then where is your economic question?

 

Kṛṣṇa has sent you His grain. You cannot waste it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Live that way.

 

Leading very simple life, in your country, in, I mean to say, America, Europe. Very simple life. Food grains and milk. You can prepare hundreds of nice preparations, full of vitamins, nutritious. And they do not know how to live civilized life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Live that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY FOUR

Room Conversation                                       New York, July 10, 1976.                                                         447428

The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahāmantra, slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhoti-ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start... (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads..."

Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing?

Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs)

Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on? "The service has become..." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another... But artificially to do something is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right?

Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required.

Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial.

 

Morning Walk                                                July 13, 1976, New York                                                          448864

Prabhupāda: (in car) ...saìge calo, ei mātra bhikhā cāi. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come with us," that's all. We don't want any more. No fees. We don't say, "First of all pay so many dollars." There is no condition. "Simply chant and come here. We shall arrange for your food, we shall arrange for your shelter, everything." Still they will not come. They will go and pay fees and chant nonsense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe we should charge, then they will become more encouraged.

Prabhupāda: No. No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Others will be discouraged.

Hari-śauri: The ones who are paying are the ones who want to be cheated.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: The ones who are paying are the ones that want to be cheated, and the ones who come here are the ones that are serious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: You once said that the scientists are the number-one enemy of mankind.

Prabhupāda: They are not enemy, but because they are bluffing, "There is no God, everything is science..." That is their foolishness. We are protesting against that.

Rāmeśvara: They say if everyone joined this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then no one would have any desire to invent the automobile, the airplane...

Prabhupāda: But it is useless waste of time. The sooner they give up all these attempts, they become saner. (break)... it is said it is simply waste of time. Yato āyur vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting time, valuable life.

Rāmeśvara: :But the natural instinct is to want to enjoy varieties...

Prabhupāda: That is material life. The material life means falsely he's thinking that he'll be happy by material adjustment. That is material life. Falsely he's thinking. He'll never be happy, but they are thinking like that. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means this hope will never be fulfilled. That is called durāśayā, a hope which is not going to be successful at any time. And throughout the whole history they have tried, the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Egyptian Empire, so many they tried, but all failed. Napoleon, Hitler, but still they have no eyes to see. From the history you see, everything failed. Napoleon started with some ideal, conquering all over Europe, and at last he had to die drinking horse urine. You know that? It was, later on he was arrested by British, and when he was asking drinking water he was given horse urine. That was his last life.

Hari-śauri: That was when he died? He died then?

Prabhupāda: He was so much insulted. Because every European countries were harassed, they had very bad idea about this Napoleon. Unnecessarily expanding the interest of France. "France and Napoleon, one." Now where is that rascal? France is there. This is going on. British Empire means bring money, hook or crook, in London, and you get the title, "lord," "baron," this... This was their policy. "Sir." All hooligans, thieves, rogues, they were made big, big respectable people. A deposit in the government, this lord family means they have to deposit, say, ten million pounds, like that, and the government takes that money as fixed deposit, and the interest the family will maintain the aristocracy. This is the lord's family. Some way or other you deposit ten million pounds and your family becomes lord's family. So people become mad after money, somehow or other bring money. There was no other culture. In order to introduce their Manchester cloth, how they killed the home industry of India, cloth merchant, this weaver... Just like we are trying. It is very long time, this, the handloom. They cut the finger.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The British did that.

Prabhupāda: The British did that so that the weavers could not work, just to introduce their Manchester's cloth. So many things they did. It is in the history.

Rāmeśvara: In America you never hear such history, in school...

Prabhupāda: They simply killed the Red Indians, that is the only.

Rāmeśvara: But in the schools they never tell you these things.

Prabhupāda: How they will tell, shameful.

Hari-śauri: In England it was "How we saved India."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now who is saving India?

Rāmeśvara: They say the "white man's burden." They came to make India civilized.

Hari-śauri: They showed us this...

Prabhupāda: Therefore all the śāstras, they bring it within Christian era. Before that, India was uncivilized. And if they accept all the Vedic literature, so exalted, then they have to accept Indian civilization. That is their propaganda. Simply propaganda, that's all.

Rāmeśvara: That's why you say Darwinism was started by the English...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...to discredit the Vedic literature.

 

Interview with Newsweek(2)                        July 14, 1976, New York                                                           448936

Interviewer: Are you retiring now?

Prabhupāda: I'm always retired. I began this movement in my retirement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said he was always retired, and he began... After retiring, he began this movement.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by retired life?

Interviewer: I mean are you giving up your position as spiritual leader?

Rāmeśvara: She means now you are going back to India. Does that mean you are retiring from traveling all over the world preaching?

Prabhupāda: No, she said that spiritual life... "What do you mean by spiri...?"

Hari-śauri: Spiritual leader of the movement.

Rāmeśvara: Managing and everything.

Prabhupāda: So why you are asking this question.

Interviewer: Well, I'm curious.

Prabhupāda: No, why you are curious about this? Whether I am retiring or not, that is...

Interviewer: What's the reason I'm curious? Ah, because we're trying to, at Newsweek, develop and try to understand what the trends are in religion, all types of religion, whether it be Christianity, Catholicism, Evangelicism...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is never retired. It is eternal. There is no question of retire.

Interviewer: I was wondering whether perhaps you would personally take a less active role.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not taking any very great active part. They are doing. I am simply reading.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda is saying that the disciples are working so hard.

Interviewer: Oh, I see.

Rāmeśvara: But I was explaining to her that you are traveling all over the world, visiting your centers, and at the same time writing so many books.

Prabhupāda: That may be lessened. That may be lessened, but that does not mean retirement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He may not travel as much, but that doesn't mean retiring from spiritual life, because spiritual life goes on continuously at all times...

Interviewer: I didn't mean that he was retiring from spiritual life.

Hari-śauri: From management.

Bali-mardana: His main work is his books, so he'll continue that.

Interviewer: I was wondering if he had a successor to do... Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?

Prabhupāda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.

Interviewer: So what process would the Hare Kṛṣṇas...?

Prabhupāda: We have got secretaries. They are managing.

Rāmeśvara: He has appointed from all the disciples a group of secretaries. Each one is in charge of a different sector of the world.

Interviewer: How many secretaries?

Rāmeśvara: Presently there is eighteen.

Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another leader?

Prabhupāda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea.

Interviewer: So, in other words, you started this whole movement here in the United States ten years ago. Would you say that the United States had the most active, financially, group of followers.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: She wants to know, seeing you chose the United States to begin this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement ten years ago, now do you find that in the United States there is the most active membership financially speaking. In terms of contributing to this movement, supporting the movement, is the best field America?

Prabhupāda: No, without finance we can go on.

Rāmeśvara: Without finance we can go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: Oh, we can go on?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: How?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not have any financial help, but His movement is going on. It does not depend on a..., on financial. It is independent. Spiritual movement is independent of any material help. That is spiritual movement.

Interviewer: But how would you be able to carry out your educational or book publishing program if you did not have a financial backing?

Prabhupāda: How I am managing now?

Interviewer: But now you are doing well financially.

Prabhupāda: You are stressing on financial help but my reply is that this movement does not depend on financial help. That is the reply.

Bali-mardana: In the beginning...

Prabhupāda: Any time, it does not depend on financial help.

 

Interview with Newsday Newspaper             July 14, 1976, New York                                                          449237

(break) ...I wonder if you could tell me how you came to founding the movement here in the United States.

Prabhupāda: I was ordered by my spiritual master to do this work, so on his order I came in 1965. That is the beginning of this. I came alone with no help, no money. Somehow or other (laughs) I started.

Interviewer: :How did you attract people? You landed in New York...

Prabhupāda: My attraction is this chanting. That's all.

Interviewer: Did you stand on street corners and chant?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I had no magic. Just like others. They say some..., show some magic. I never showed any magic.

Interviewer: No, I understand that.

Bali-mardana: Thompkins Park.

Prabhupāda: By Thompkins Park I was chanting, and these boys gradually came. First picture was published by the New York Times. Then we started branches in San Francisco, in Montreal, Boston. And then Los Angeles. In this way...

Interviewer: So you just chanted in Thompkins Park, and people came?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I was underneath a tree. I think that picture was published by that Voice, very big article, published.

Interviewer: What did you have to offer then. If you were chanting in the park and I said "What are you doing? Why are you chanting? What's your thing here?"

Bali-mardana: He said what did you have to offer.

Rāmeśvara: He said, "If someone had come up to you while you were chanting and said, 'Why are you doing this? What are you offering?' How would you have replied."

Prabhupāda: They came... Naturally they came and joined me and began to dance, that's all. That is the beginning.

 

Interviewer: What's the purpose of that rising? What's the purpose of that, the rising at 4:30, the chanting and study?

Prabhupāda: It means to be fixed up in (indistinct) spiritual life. Just like in military there is training. You must have to do at this time this thing, this time, this time... So any training means regulated life.

Interviewer: What is the most important part of it?

Prabhupāda: The most important part is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Interviewer: Yes, what's the most important practice.

Prabhupāda: Practice, yes. This is practice.

Bali-mardana: Which devotional practice...?

Rāmeśvara: He is asking whether one technique is more important than another.

Prabhupāda: Everything is important. Everything is important. You cannot say, "This is most important; this is less important." Everything is important.

Rāmeśvara: But suppose someone cannot live in our temple. Then we may recommend to him at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in your home...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And take Kṛṣṇa prasādam and read the books.

Prabhupāda: And follow the regulative principles.

 

Interviewer: Your family, your blood family, are they Kṛṣṇa conscious as well?

Prabhupāda: Not very much. Therefore I had to leave them and create another family. (laughter)

Interviewer: How many children do you have.

Prabhupāda: I have got two daughters and two sons. My wife is also still living.

Interviewer: Is she Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: Not very much. Naturally women are after worldly opulence.

Interviewer: Was it difficult for you to give up what you had been doing in order to devote full time.

Prabhupāda: No, it is the Vedic system that at a certain age they should give up family connection and completely devote for God consciousness. In the beginning, twenty-five years, he should learn from guru about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then, if he is able, he does not become a family man, but if he is unable or circumstantially, he may become a family man. So he can remain a family man up to fiftieth year and then he retires from family life. He travels in holy places with his wife, and sometimes he comes home and sometimes he goes home. In this way, when he's practiced to give up family attachment, then the wife goes back home to the care of her elderly children, and the man takes sannyāsa, and he remains alone simply for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Vedic system.

Rāmeśvara: Vedic system means very traditional, from ancient India.

Interviewer: Yes. Now, you are not practicing the Vedic system, then, here, are you? Or are you?

Rāmeśvara: We are following.

Prabhupāda: No, it is all Vedic system. It is Vedic system.

Interviewer: Is it better to do it the way you did it or to start from a very early age in the, er...?

Rāmeśvara: In other words, some of our members are sannyāsa at an earlier age.

Prabhupāda: No, if... The purpose is to train a person in brahmacārī, not to enter into the entanglement of this material life. That is Vedic system. Basic principle is that don't be entangled with this material energy. So at the early age, up to twenty-five, he's trained up. If he can, he can continue as brahmacārī. He directly can take sannyāsa. But if he's unable, so let him go by step by step. Let him become a family, householder life, then retired life, then... But sannyāsa at the end, that is compulsory, not that unless he is shot down by somebody, he's not going to give up family life. That is not Vedic system.

Interviewer: But young men don't tend to be wise, do they?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Interviewer: Young men do not generally possess a great deal of wisdom.

Prabhupāda: No, if he's trained up. Just like here we have got so many young men. They are trained up. So there is no prohibition that a young man cannot become a sannyāsa. If he's able, he can take sannyāsa from the very beginning. But if he's not able, let him enter into household life and then remain as householder up to fiftieth year, then retire, then take sannyāsa. It is not an enforcement. A gradual process. But the ultimate end is to become free from all material attachment and completely devote life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the ultimate end. Because human life is meant for that purpose, self-realization or spiritual realization, that opportunity must be given to all human beings. Unfortunately at the present moment the civilization has no scope for spiritual realization. They live like other animals, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That's all. They do not know there is another life, spiritual life, and neither there is any education or institution to educate them. Now we are trying for that purpose.

Interviewer: How important is it to look after physical life?

Prabhupāda: Physical life, so you must keep yourself fit to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not our desire that you become sick and you cannot chant. But our purpose is to chant and we require the physical necessities just to keep ourselves fit, not more than that. Eating is necessary. Without eating, I will die. So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, not in the restaurant or hotel anything, no. We take nice vegetables, nice food grains, rice, wheat, sugar, milk, all vitaminous, full of vitamins. So there is no deficiency of food. Even from food value it is very nice. We do not unnecessarily kill animals.

Interviewer: You run farms as well, do you not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Interviewer: What do they...

Prabhupāda: So you try to...

Interviewer: Are they working farms, producing farms?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many farms in your country. Just now I am coming from New Vrindāban in West Virginia. They are living. If you go sometime, you can see how independently they are living. And there are other farms, New Orleans, and just now we are going tomorrow...

Rāmeśvara: Pennsylvania.

Prabhupāda: Pennsylvania. So we get enough milk, enough food grains, enough fruits. So there is no economic problem. Our purpose is to save time from unnecessary necessities of life, from unnecessary necessities of life, to save time and utilize the time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so far the body is concerned, as much as it is required take and maintain the body. That's all.

Interviewer: Your devotees' health is looked after, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: By who?

Prabhupāda: They are instructed in that way, plain living, high thinking.

Interviewer: Do you have arrangements with hospitals in case somebody gets sick, and do you watch diet carefully and...?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Why not? Take care of the body. But we keep our habits in such a way that we don't fall sick very often.

Interviewer: You said before that with respect to achieving Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that the end was most important, that becoming God conscious...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: ...Was the most important thing. Would that ever allow you to or any one of the devotees, to engage in practices that would be considered unjust or criminal in a broader society?

Prabhupāda: That is his interest.

Interviewer: In terms of, you know, "This is for Kṛṣṇa. This is for developing God consciousness..."

Prabhupāda: No, if you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, you are interested for everyone. And if you are interested for a particular person, society, then you are not interested in Kṛṣṇa. The example I can give you. Just like if you supply food to your stomach, then you supply food to your eyes, ears, hands, legs, everything. But if you supply food to your eyes, then you become blind.

Bali-mardana: He wants to know that would you be justified in doing something that society would consider criminal, like, say...

Rāmeśvara: Like stealing for Kṛṣṇa, or killing for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Killing?

Rāmeśvara: If it is... Something that is judged by, say, the US government as criminal, would be still do it if it was for Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, we do not do anything which is harmful to the society. We do not do anything, not only to the human society. To the animal society, to the tree society, to the aquatic society, we do not do anything. We do not support the slaughterhouse, killing the animals. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to see every living entity on the same level. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. We are not cruel to anyone. Either he's a man or animal or tree or bird.

Interviewer: Does that take on a positive aspect as well so that by not only do I not kill animals and I don't kill men, do I, am I obliged under your system, am I obliged to actively help...

Prabhupāda: Yes, suppose if you are coming to kill me, then I must take advantage of killing you first.

Interviewer: I understand that, and obliged to go beyond.

Bali-mardana: Are you also obliged to help animals, to help other human beings.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are maintaining animals, giving them food, giving them security of life in all our farms the animals are very free.

Rāmeśvara: We're obliged because they are all part and parcel of God.

Interviewer: And what about with people?

Prabhupāda: Every people. You come to stay with us, we give you all help. Anyone who comes to our society we give shelter, we give food, we give instruction, we give dress, everything. Without any condition. You please come and live with us. For such a nice building we have taken. Our farms are so nice, you can go and see how they are doing. We have got one hundred and two centers all over the world. You'll find they are living very comfortably.

Interviewer: How many centers in the United States?

Prabhupāda: About forty.

Rāmeśvara: Forty or fifty.

Hari-śauri: Fifty with the farms.

Interviewer: How are those supported? Do they support themselves?

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Interviewer: I beg your pardon?

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Interviewer: The way they support themselves?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa supports.

Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa supports?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow, but we have no insufficiency. Rather, neighbors they are grudging that these people do not do anything and they live so comfortably. Sometimes they ask...

Interviewer: How does Kṛṣṇa support them?

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Interviewer: He mediates through physical things, does he?

Prabhupāda: Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa.

Interviewer: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is within you. So if Kṛṣṇa dictates, "Give him three thousand dollars," you'll give me. That's all. That actually it is fact. Yesterday Mr. Coleman came? He gave me a check for three thousand. I never asked him.

Bali-mardana: Who? Mr. Coleman?

Hari-śauri: Coleman.

Prabhupāda: So we are immediately depositing for our Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura scheme. So Kṛṣṇa sends money. We do not bother what will happen tomorrow. But we are very nicely maintained by Kṛṣṇa's grace. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And Kṛṣṇa says teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Find out this verse.

ananyāś cintayanto māṁ

ye janāḥ paryupāsate

teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ

yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham

Interviewer: A question: you are now the leader and the spiritual master. Who will take your place?

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will dictate who will take my place.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                    July 26, 1976, London                                                            452020

Prabhupāda: So why your cloth is so dirty?

Pṛthu-putra: I just traveled with him.

Prabhupāda: For a sannyāsī it is very nice. So people may not dislike it, but for a sannyāsī this is very nice.

Bhagavān: He's doing very nicely, Pṛthu-putra. He's having many preaching engagements.

Prabhupāda: Very good. That is wanted. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. So when the whole lot will be delivered?

Bhagavān: End of August.

Prabhupāda: End of August? Oh.

Bhagavān: Twenty-five thousand. And same, Kṛṣṇa book also, twenty-five thousand.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this cover is wonderful.

Jayatīrtha: Very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: In France especially they will appreciate it, so ornate.

Prabhupāda: Same size?

Bhagavān: Same size, same thickness, all the same as the Gītā. It's a whole library of books.

Hari-śauri: You doing a color scheme on the different color for each canto?

Bhagavān: Maybe not, maybe keep the same.

Prabhupāda: There will be three parts or two?

Bhagavān: Two parts.

Prabhupāda: So give Bhagavān prabhu nice prasādam. Our, the devotees only eat prasādam.

Bhagavān: My prasāda was sitting here. I'm sorry to hear that you are so sick. You are sick.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Should have, cough, to stop.(?) The coughing is continuing and practically no appetite, and palpitation of heart. Going up the step is.... So how under this condition I can travel? It is not...

Bhagavān: Very difficult

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you came back from India?

Pṛthu-putra: Three months ago.

Prabhupāda: From Vṛndāvana?

Pṛthu-putra: From Bombay. I was last in Bombay.

Bhagavān: You have been like this for some time?

Prabhupāda: It has begun from New York, eh?

Hari-śauri: Yeah, you had kidney trouble in New York, and then immediately after that, coughing and.... When we came on the plane it grew worse.

Prabhupāda: One doctor came, he gave me three bags of tablets.

Hari-śauri: He wanted to give you five. He gave us five different prescriptions.

Prabhupāda: I did not take anything, tablet. Rather, what one I was taking, I have stopped that also.

Jayatīrtha: You do not put very much faith in these doctors.

Prabhupāda: What this medicine will help?

452074

Prabhupada: So in the village how many devotees are there?

Bhagavān: At the farm? Almost two hundred.

Prabhupāda: Oh, very good.

Bhagavān: They are waiting for you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must be waiting. So farming is going? Farming?

Bhagavān: Oh, yes, we've just harvested barley and oats, big harvest, and the farm is supplying beans, cauliflower right now, and tomatoes. They have planted three thousand tomato plants, and all the farmers, they are asking how we have done.

Prabhupāda: And milk?

Bhagavān: We have not bought many cows yet. We will.

Prabhupāda: No, no milk at all? No cows?

Bhagavān: Oh, yes, we have five cows, six cows.

Prabhupāda: So getting milk.

.                                                                                                                                                                       452074

....I want this, that you have sufficient grain, sufficient milk, then where is your economic question? And from milk, by intelligence you can get so many preparation--luci, puri, halavah, rasagulla, sandesh, rabri, wonderful.

                                                                                                                                                                        452094

Prabhupāda: Good. No, now we are book selling nicely. I think our settlement.... (?) Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything cautiously and not extravagantly. You go on. Everything will be all right. There will be no scarcity. Yāvad-artha-prayojanam. Our parents taught us, mother, if there was a grain of rice on the ground and it is touched with feet, "Oh, you take it." We were taught like that.

Jayatīrtha: Nothing should be wasted.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has sent you His grain. You cannot waste it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Live that way. And Kṛṣṇa is providing so much facilities for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, and why should we deviate and spoil this life, take the risk of again going into the cycle of birth and death? Commonsense affair. We have got the good, greatest opportunity to solve this problem of repetition of birth. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. And only for little sense gratification we are going to sacrifice so great opportunity of life? This much education is wanted. Na sadhu manye yata ātmano 'yam. Eh? Find out the verse, Fifth Canto.

                                                                                                                                                                        452111

Prabhupāda: No, pramattaḥ, that we can see, pramattaḥ, mad. And everyone, especially in the Western country, so many madmen. The hippies, their whole sect--mad. Pramattaḥ. Then so-called businessmen, so-called scientist, so-called philosopher--everyone is mad. And kurute vikarma, all sinful activities, especially the slaughterhouse, horrible. Everyone is taking share of these sinful activities. They're fighting amongst themselves, this party, that party, communist party, fascist party, then barking in the United Nation and so on, so on. All mad. At least we must know it. Or we are talking nonsense; they are all right. What is your conviction?

Bhagavān: We are seeing that more and more we are having to preach to younger and younger people.

Prabhupāda: Those who are innocent.

Bhagavān: Yes. In the colleges even it is very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagavān: In the colleges now. Before, it was not so difficult. Now they are becoming...

Prabhupāda: Spoiled, all spoiled. All spoiled.

Bhagavān: Now many devotees are younger, sixteen, seventeen years old, not so spoiled.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, kaumāra ācaret prājïo dharman bhagavatān iha: "From the very beginning." How they are spoiling the opportunity in the whole educational system, social system, political system. Let us do our duty. What can be done? Is there any purport?

                                                                                                                                                                        452156

Prabhupāda: Yes. This failure was assured ten years ago by me.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, you predicted it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but still, I am saying, "This will be all failure." And still, they are hopeful. My Guru Maharaja is very pleased. As soon as a book comes out, he is pleased.

Jayatīrtha: Especially one so beautiful.

Prabhupāda: He was lamenting that "These men, they did not make, publish any number of books. They are simply after this stone and bricks." He condemned. He was very, very sorry. So I thought that I must take a risk. And he's pleased.

Bhagavān: So now you have books and temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes, temple is automatically.

Jayatīrtha: Without fighting, you've got so many temples.

Prabhupāda: No, I never stressed on temple. I was engaged in publishing the Back to Godhead. Whatever I could do, I did it because I took it very seriously that he is very sorry that these things were not done. He said that "There will be fire in this Gaudiya Math." Āgun jvālbe, he said. Amari taci loka kichui boi kakrayebo (?): "If I can, I shall sell these marbles of this temple and convert them into books." That was his ambition. He started a very nice press and this (name with-held) sold it.

Jayatīrtha: Sold it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: The press.

Prabhupāda: He's not representing Guru.... "Better let's have money for fight in the court."

Jayatīrtha: Sometimes I'm sorry that my name also has this word in it.

Prabhupāda: You are Jaya-tirtha. You are victorious. Now whatever is being done, it is by his blessing. Let us work sincerely. Things will be all.... Otherwise it is humanly impossible. It is by his grace.

Jayatīrtha: George was also commenting on that, how one man could have written so many books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: He could not even read them all, what to speak of writing them all.

Prabhupāda:

mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ

paìguṁ laìghayate girim

yat-kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande

śrī-gurum dīna-tāranam

Mūkaṁ karoti vācālam: "A dumb is a great orator." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ. Paìguṁ laìghayate girim: "The lame man, lame man is jumping over the mountain." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paìguṁ laìghayate girim. Yat-kṛpa: "By the mercy of guru it is possible." So let us cooperate and do this business. Higher authority will be pleased, and that is our success. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If the higher authorities are pleased, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is our success.

                                                                                                                                                                        452192

Prabhupāda: Apramana.(?) Actually, what is this? My Guru Maharaja: "He's a bokāloka." My Guru Maharaja used to say all these men, "All rascals." I was at that time coming him(?). But he said, all, "Everyone rascals." He told me, "Rabindranath Tagore and..., bokāloka."

Hari-śauri: What's the exact meaning of that word?

Prabhupāda: Bokāloka means just like a foolish boy. Bokāloka.

Bhagavān: Childish.

Prabhupāda: Childish, with no sense. Actually that is the fact. All these rascals, they have no sense. Simply they bluff because they have no real knowledge. Mayayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ. That's a fact. If one, anyone, does not know Kṛṣṇa, then he's a bokā-loka. Immediately take it for granted, bokāloka. They take that we are very sectarian, but that is a fact.

Bhagavān: Our philosophy is that everyone else is wrong.

Prabhupāda: May be true to some extent, but they do not know the ultimate truth. That they do not know. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān. He understands, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That requires many, many births, to come to that conclusion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ. This Kṛṣṇa says. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiïcid asti dhanaïjaya: "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. He explains to everyone, sarva-dharman parityajya mām ekam. That is the.... There is the ultimate person. You call Him Kṛṣṇa or something, but you must know Him. Éśvaraḥ paramaḥ, there must be. Father's father's father's father's father's.... Who is the original father? There must be. Where is the wrong in this statement? So you find out the supreme father, but He has no father; He is the Absolute. Sarva-kāraṇa.... Anādir ādiḥ: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning." Anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam.

 

 

 

 

Interview                                                        London, July 27, 1976                                                             453204

Prabhupāda: Most of our preparations are made from milk products. Therefore we are so much fond of cow protection. It gives the basic principle of palatable foodstuff. But these people, they do not know. They simply cut the throat of the cow and boil it and with salt. (laughter) They do not know how to keep the cow and take milk from it and prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations. That is a lack of civilization. Just like all the, what is called, aborigines, they find an animal, kill it and eat. They do not how to utilize the animals. Most aboriginal. We keep cows, we take milk, and from milk we make yogurt, we make ghee, and from ghee we prepare so many things.

Mike Robinson: What do you do with a cow when it dies? Do you just bury it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the cow-eaters can come and take it free of charge. (laughter)

Mike Robinson: Well, let me know, you know.

Prabhupāda: You can get the skin free of charges. In India still, there is a class, they, when the cow dies, they are called, they are called chamar. So he comes, take away the animal, dead animal, and they eat the flesh and take the skin, make shoes. They get all, everything free. There is no question of going to the butcher's place to purchase. So this much patience they have got, that "We want to eat this cow. All right, let us wait till her death." No, immediately. Just see, what a civilization. And cow is giving milk, she is mother. Killing the mother. Do you think it is civilization? Mother who has given you milk in your childhood, and maintained your life, and because she is old, cutting throat. Is that good civilization?

Mike Robinson: Seems silly, doesn't it. Umm, I think are you keeping cows here?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. We have about twelve cows here.

Prabhupāda: We have got many farms all over the world. They are living very happy. Have you got some pictures?

Jayatīrtha: Of the cows?

Prabhupāda: No, of our farms, farmland. Leading very simple life, in your country, in, I mean to say, America, Europe. Very simple life. Food grains and milk. You can prepare hundreds of nice preparations, full of vitamins, nutritious. And they do not know how to live civilized life.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        453627

Mike Robinson: But it exists purely as a charity, isn't that correct?

Hari-śauri: Yes, purely nonprofit.

Mike Robinson: Which must make it difficult sometimes, doesn't it?

Harikeśa: No, it's done out of love. So it is not at all difficult.

Mike Robinson: I see.

Jayatīrtha: No one requires any payment. The only payment is the fulfillment that they are experiencing.

Mike Robinson: But how about the electricity board and people like that? I mean, where do you get the money?

Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa gives us the money.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no scarcity of money. We are selling our books daily, sixty thousand dollars' worth. So we have got sufficient income to maintain the whole institute.

Jayatīrtha: No one takes any personal benefit. All the money is used for the furtherance of our principles.

 

Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything…They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokāloka.

 

Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic type incentives in many of the communist countries in order to induce the people to work.

Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is first class, Vaiṣṇava.

But they see practically that "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture.

 

In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs dry wood. We can make those.

 

Here so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee, then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavah.

 

The opportunity of human form of life is systematcially being refused by the modern civilization.

 

Organize this center very nicely. So many people will be happy.

 

Our Gauòīya Matha people, those who were leaders, they wanted to supersede the order of Guru Mahārāja. Therefore it was failure.

 

Let them come and work little, grow food, eat and chant.

 

The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa…So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā.

 

Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation.

 

After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition…Economic development is not possible.

 

We should not waste a single moment for so-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Organize it and keep hundreds of books. They will live peacefully. But don't entangle in sinful activities. Then it will be all right. Such a nice place. The city residents cannot imagine.

 

Let them do whatever they like, you live apart from them. Live peacefully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be happy. Let these cats and dogs go to hell; what can be done…Of course, the condition is that you should not act sinfully. That is the first condition. But we never say that you have to pay so many dollars. Come. Whatever little food we have got, we shall share. So try to understand the importance of this movement. Kṛṣṇa is giving us. This is a first-class place. You can develop it into a Vaikuṇṭha. It is already Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa is there. But develop it very nicely, peacefully live. Hundreds of miles away from the hellish cities. For little conveyance we can have bullock carts, when we have to get, transport. Very peaceful life. Introduce it and live peacefully. Am I right or wrong?

 

And gradually develop, make little cottages, grow little vegetable, little barley or wheat and milk. That is sufficient. We don't require much. We don't want luxury. We want just to subsist. Yavad artha prayojana. We hate the idea of luxury, unnecessary.

 

Now I have given the ideas, the philosophy, in the books. So it is your business to develop all over the world. You are very intelligent, Europeans and Americans. Give it a shape, for the world prosperity. Give it a practical.... It is practical. There is no difficulty. So much land. Very good fertile land in Africa, Australia, in America. All of them can be utilized for the happiness of the whole world.

 

...thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it.

…Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it…The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life…We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them.

 

Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely.

 

There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries.

Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away…

…And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance.

 

And I have got practical experience, if you cook your own food, whatever it may be, it is healthy…And if you do it very carefully, then you'll never get disease. Take simple food, neat and clean, you'll not get disease. So everything depends on eating to keep the health proper. But these things can be simplified when the life is simple. If I go to work in office at this time, then so many things become topsy-turvied. But if you depend on yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya, you haven't got to depend on others, then you can do timely.

 

Are you realizing that there is no civilization? Actually civilization we are introducing. Except Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization, there is no civilization--animal society. What do you think? Are you convinced about it?

 

Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This is not a place for a gentleman." Formerly, therefore, they used to go away from the society, go in the forest, to give up this bad association. Live alone…Therefore our temples should be very carefully managed. It may not become again another pandemonium…Therefore in this old age I am struggling so much to see that things are going on nicely. So far I have seen, it is going on nice. But maybe the management is lacking.

It maybe the māyā is very strong. So be careful. …Unnatural there is nothing. Is there anything unnatural?

 

So we are warning people not to follow these silly jackals. Be prudent and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That will make your life successful…Be trained up. Because every one of us, we have followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advice. First of all, let your personal life be successful, then try to do good to others. The, all over the world, they have simply followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. When you are trained up to follow Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Then you can do something. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. We have to follow Kṛṣṇa alone. Not all these rascals, silly jackals. Then our life is successful. Kṛṣṇa can give you all guidance. In all respective necessities of life, there is everything complete. We haven't got to follow the silly jackals. So here is a nice place, you stay here and forget the silly jackals and take to Kṛṣṇa alone or His devotees. Then you can start very nicely a center anywhere.

 

But who is chanting, he must be a sincere devotee. Then his chanting will be effective. A gramophone machine will not do. He must be realized, then his chanting will be effective. Satāṁ prasaìgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. He must behave just like a pure Vaiṣṇava.

 

When the same child speaks something too much, "Ah, stop." To the extent of his capacity, that's all right. But if you talk more than that, then you are rascal. So they are doing that now. Because they have got some electronic success, or they have manufactured some jet plane, or these, they are now thinking "Now we have owned over the whole world situation." That is nonsense.

 

So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely… If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed….Never mind, own or not own. You possess and that's all. You don't own anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Do you think it is, you own this?…Why you should stress on the proprietorship?

 

Very good, but I could not digest them. That is my fault, but, oh, it was so nice palatable. Chick peas, chick peas, grow fresh. Eat very nicely, keep strong, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. Don't depend on this outside work and then gradually become debauch, thief, rogues, prostitutes.

 

We are quite opposed. We want to show it is possible, yes. You can stop all this nonsense and still you go on as a perfect civilized man. With character, knowledge, satisfaction, everything.

 

In the market you cannot get fresh. All three hundred years old. Anything fresh, that is full of vitamin. Grow fresh, take fresh.

 

I mean to say all self-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha. Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. That is real business.

 

Our purpose will be served anywhere. So, try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life…Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work?

 

So show the simple example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy… Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

 

And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that, preach in America vigorously. If America accepts, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything.

 

They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ.

 

Our mission is not to make the nonvegetarian as vegetarian. That will automatically be done. Our mission is to teach people how to love God.

 

Faith means that you are meant for giving some service to Kṛṣṇa. You should stick to that service, that path, in spite of all impediments. That is the passing of test. Generally, just like we are meant for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there may be severe test, but still we shall remain determined. That is wanted. There may be so many impediments, punishment, still you should do that. That is wanted. That is test. Not that as soon as there is some difficulty I give it up. There may be severe test, but still we shall not give it up. We must go on. That is determination.

Nava-yauvana: Passing the test means executing the order of the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual life. One has to take order from the spiritual master and execute it, despite all impediments. That is determination.

 

That I was telling this morning, that if you have determination, māyā will put forward so many impediments, and with all sufferings, if he remains determined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is success.

 

Our plan should be to accept Kṛṣṇa's plan, that's all…Yes, that Kṛṣṇa's solves. Yes, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni: produce food grains. You have to work because it is material world… No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Kṛṣṇa is giving you instruction. Just like food, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni. You produce anna.

 

So you belong to the rājasika, that's all. So it can be conquered by sāttvika.

 

...Kṛṣṇa practically showing how to live Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana nobody knows Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nobody knows. But their love for Śrī Kṛṣṇa is intense. That is wanted. Premā pumartho mahān. That is required. You simply become an intense lover of Kṛṣṇa, bas. Your life is successful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Life will be sublime.

Man-manā… That is real business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY FIVE

Room Conversation                                         July 27, 1976, London                                                            453340

Prabhupāda: He is so rich(?) man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessity. Getting jaundice.

Jayatīrtha: The main reason why he doesn't.... I think he got jaundice because, he admitted, is that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: He had Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas, they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist class, singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the.... They are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they were not doing. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing, low class. Their hereditary business is like that.

Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly.

Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our Dayanika(?) men, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India--the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the.... So they came to see one of my friend's daughter, and the daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom's party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was the question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mati. His elder brother was there. He became very angry, that "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as.... He took it as insult, that "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, how to sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No. He is well, good(?)." Actually that is.... Dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art.... And among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girl from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumakali Dāsī, this Dāsī.... Nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the.... No respectable man.... You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for the brāhmaṇas, the professional who would come. They'll take their reward.

Bhagavān: This class is very influential today. This cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race...

Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from things other view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic play on it(?), and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. The money will be the criterion--no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be brāhmaṇa? If you become a perfect brāhmaṇa, who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a brāhmaṇa. "Why we shall become brāhmaṇa? Starve? For starvation?" Nowadays the colleges, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they.... Nobody.... They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagriva told me. He's not getting any job. There is another, Mr., Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling insurance. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent.

Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving.

Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve?

Bhagavān: We are not starving.

Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here. Live comfortably. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam, I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They are living in the best house.

Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money.

Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokāloka. In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup.

Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits?

Prabhupāda: You can keep, if I like I can take. But vegetable soup.

Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast?

Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that?

Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book.

Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke, the philosophy book.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism? Ah, very good title.

Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.

Jayatīrtha: Very good title.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam. So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva, whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava. Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava, means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ. And this will continue yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. And if you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva, then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated, simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? The girls are working that side? No.

Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet.

Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like.

Prabhupāda: No...No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side; I'll sit down here.

Jayatīrtha: They should come now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them.

Bhagavān: Most of the people who..., they are becoming attracted to this communist philosophy. They have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are saying is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are saying, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists.

Prabhupāda: "That also distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you simply (indistinct). That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress?

Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America...

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Hari-śauri: ...was because they had no rain. All their crops failed.

Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs, they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit; therefore they don't want to work.                                                                                                                                    

Prabhupāda: Why they shall work?

Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive.

Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy." Why shall they work? That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism.

Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." So that.... Arjuna for his personal, he did not..., decline, but when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these communists, they will work according to.... Everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce. And they'll have to beg.

Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic type incentives in many of the communist countries in order to induce the people to work.

Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati. Who knows this verse? Find out this verse.

Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo. First Canto. "The first-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy?

Harikeśa:

sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."

Prabhupāda: So the communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied.

Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington. It doesn't matter. He's imperfect. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje, this word, is used. God.... They may say that "Where is God?" And therefore the word is adhokṣaje: "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used, that "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still, you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje. They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think.... They say, I have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and "Unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that?

Harikeśa: Some people think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa." So similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture.

Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are.... Why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin..." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal Nehru's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindaji's temple, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple? Without invitation--crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background)

Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books.

Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for.... That's all. Here is Vyasadeva, vidvān. So

anarthopaśamam sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

You have found? Read it.

Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyasadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth."

Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān, and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. Where you got these beads?

Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Purchased?

Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, tulasī.

Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs dry wood. We can make those.

Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the communists and stress on the differences between us and them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: That can come later.

Prabhupāda: But they see practically that "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farm is better organized than all others.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. When they bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindaban, they have such a...

Prabhupāda: Hilly.

Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything is built from scratch.

Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindaban is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery...

Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindaban there are so many machinery.

Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not producing various things(?).

Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindaban after so many years. They were very efficient.

Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis' society the unemployment is a great discredit, now people sitting idle.

Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very dissatisfied with the.... Especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and lid. So who will purchase? Nobody lives in the tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial.... It is very artificial civilization. If you produce.... (break) Here so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee, then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavah.

Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic.                           

Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasadam. "Come on." You make friends.

Arrival at farm                                                  July 29, 1976, Paris                                                               453478

Prabhupāda: So I am very glad to see you again in this village.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was the prediction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu that in every village, in every town on the surface of the globe, there will be preaching of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name and the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. It is to be translated? (translator translates into French) So by your transcendental endeavor it is being fulfilled, otherwise who expected that in this remote village of France, Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra would be chanted? When Caitanya Mahāprabhu said in every village, in every town, he did not mean that every village and every town in India. He specifically says pṛthivīte, means on the surface of the globe. So the purpose is that without spreading of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, nobody can become happy. That's a fact. The opportunity of human form of life is systematically being refused by the modern civilization. This material activity only for the bodily comforts of life, that is not human civilization. Human civilization means the human being must know the supreme controller and the aim of life. The real fact is that God is there, the supreme controller, and we, living entities, we are His parts and parcels. As parts and parcels of God, we, being separated, we are suffering. An example can be given in this connection, just like a small child is the part and parcel of the body of the mother. So the child is happy when the child is on the lap of the mother. That means the part and the whole must live together. Then there is happiness. Otherwise, there is distress. The modern godless civilization is making the part and the whole separated. Therefore the whole condition is chaotic. You have got experience in your this part of the globe, within fifty years there have been two big, big wars and... Many other parts also. People are not in happiness on account of godlessness. So actually if we want to be happy in this life and the next life, then we must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And it is not at all difficult: simply chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So I am very glad that you are accustomed to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Stick to it and you'll all be happy. Thank you very much. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        453497

Prabhupāda: Organize this center very nicely. So many people will be happy.

                                                                                                                                                                        453517

 Hari-śauri: It's coming in a few minutes. Have to order that. Tapioca.

Prabhupāda: Is there any store near here?

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not immediately. Just or you have got barley powder?

Bhagavān: They are getting this morning. They are taking it to get ground.

Prabhupāda: Immediately, there is no stock?

Bhagavān: No.

Prabhupāda:

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

This desire to serve guru is the qualification. Yasya deve para bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. In the spiritual life, this is the secret of success. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā... In many places. Our Gauòīya Matha people, those who were leaders, they wanted to supersede the order of Guru Mahārāja. Therefore it was failure.

                                                                                                                                                                        453538

Prabhupāda: Let them come and work little, grow food, eat and chant. Why should they bother going to the factory, running at five o'clock? Horrible life, horrible civilization? Motor accident, delayed, anxiety, "Oh, I am delayed, I am delayed." What is this civilization?

 

Room Conversation                                     Paris Farm, July 31, 1976                                                           453704

Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions for the Gurukula, because now if I don't ask them today...

Prabhupāda: So Gurukula means, find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule.

Hari-śauri: Seven, Two.

Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa means guru. Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means directly. So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, in every śāstra it is said the guru is one, Kṛṣṇa. So, it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, uktas. You understand little Sanskrit?

Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ, "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly," tathā means "accordingly," bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva... It does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God, servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ: nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā... "Who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā among My devotees." So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is bhakti. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy that guru has become God. Guru as God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru. So if one has got bona fide guru, and if he follows that bona fide guru, then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair. So Gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru. That is Gurukula. So you have to teach like that. By behavior, by life, by action. That is Gurukula. This sum and substance of... Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that?

Harikeśa: We don't have the book.

Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there?

Hari-śauri: It's Seven, Three. There was only your copies available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison.

Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more.

Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York.

Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of Gurukula. Now from this platform, on this understanding you have to organize.

Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teachers, that they should do that.

Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed, they should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen, that should be taught. Risen early, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru says, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood; then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up.

Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa, they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants...

Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to... But this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self-controlled, and act on behalf of guru. This is Gurukula. Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not Gurukula. There are many thousands scholars--who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in the life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is Gurukula.

Harikeśa:

brahmacārī guru-kule

vasan dānto guror hitam

ācaran dāsavan nīco

gurau sudṛòha-sauhṛdaḥ

Prabhupāda: Guror hitam. So, a brahmacārī, a brahmacārī should live in the Gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach, any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated.

Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a Gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen...

Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. That is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever self-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband, and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting--that should be their subject matter.

Jyotirmāyī: Painting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa.

Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics, reading, writing, all these.

Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, ABCD, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely.

Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen?

Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra. The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five-, six-years-old.

Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves.

Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ others to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old he could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student.

Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook?

Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not a very difficult art. If they want, the boys can... (coughs) There are so many, in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated, how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement.

Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, press work?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, there are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalists, finished, all business. It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is Gurukula. And brahmacārī, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God. So they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad, in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful women, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord.... Sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and.... That is also another sense pleasure, and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex. Because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing, that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saìgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is Gurukula. So these are the general principles. Now arrange.

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs.

Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...

Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting. But they'll "No, no." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogues, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nations. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? We can give a very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our, these restrictions?

Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the Gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy.

Prabhupāda: They have standardized their happiness on these principles--illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. These are the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Rolan(?) said, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still, he said "Oh, it is impossible."

Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and...

Prabhupāda: What is the use?

Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge...

Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time, simply waste of time.

Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this?

Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, whether you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood? What is the use?

Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate two plus two equal to four, a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all, he'll take one ounce of blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give you a tablet, "Perhaps it may help." This is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine... (break)

Yogeśvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge?

Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?

Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.

Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that?

Prabhupāda: Different plants?

Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes, here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use?

Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study, that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says "I have not seen father; how can I recognize father?" that does not mean... Because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior. From Veda-mātā. You have to know from the Vedas.

Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ

tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa gives the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa, and when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged--the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical: do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ. Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these.... There are many students, many botanists, many.... They, vaguely they are studying, and the have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal it is better not to study.

Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the Kṛṣṇa book stories easier. It was... You started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the Kṛṣṇa book into a poem. That was a long time ago in New York, then she didn't do it...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa book is not difficult to be understood by...

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they can remember...

Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that.

Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed... You said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves.

Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"--Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.

Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.

Devotee (1): You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others.

Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher, they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition than you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're struggling. Why they word it of "struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men, upper class, middle class and lower class, is there. Is there any country where there is not these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Then what is the use? Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, middle class and lower class. In the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is answer? British Empire, London, one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing? Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is answer?

Harikeśa: It's his nature.

Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saìgo 'sya sad-asad janma yoniṣu. This is... So therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary. Your standard of happiness and distress must be there because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; still, you have lie down on the bench, lie down. Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies, lie down here. Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? New York City? So cared for? Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment--dung dung dung dung dung dung dung dung, gu gu gu gu gu gu gu--fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līòha-loka. Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Öhākura said saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale. The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that.

Harikeśa:

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido

na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ

tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ

kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā

"Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them."

Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport?

Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death."

Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the descriptions we get from śāstra. And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra. What do you think? Is that very good intelligence?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. The unfortunate, they can believe that, we cannot believe.

Devotee (1): Now they have published pictures of Mars.

Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās. Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry.

Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, can one obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in a life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."

Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all?

Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can...

Prabhupāda: He complained that "My boy is not being properly..." So I said that "You teach your son."

Jyotirmāyī: She can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror-hitam. That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow it. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is a waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right?

                                                                                                                                                                              453808

Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam. (pronounces like Śyāma) Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuòa.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuòa Airlines.

Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees.

Devotee (1): The king is speaking Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known, it has been changed now. Formerly, it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed.

Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Buddhist.

Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                     July 31, 1976, Paris                                                                453589

Prabhupāda: Organize it and keep hundreds of books. They will live peacefully. But don't entangle in sinful activities. Then it will be all right. Such a nice place. The city residents cannot imagine. What a nonsense life--clubs, slaughterhouse, gambling places, drinking house. This is like hell. Try to save people from this hellish condition of life, without any knowledge, like animals. And nature therefore creates a wholesale slaughterhouse in war, to cut throat all--finished. Many millions and millions are finished. From 1914 to 1950, how many years?

Harikeśa: Thirty-six.

Prabhupāda: Within thirty-six years there were two big wars, slaughter. Especially Europe. Nature will create. Pestilence. Somewhere there is pestilence, somewhere there is war, somewhere there is scarcity of food. But you cannot indulge in sinful activities. Then you'll be killed. Then nature's law will act. You may defy, that's your business, but nature will act in her own way. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You cannot surpass. That is not possible. But they are foolish, they are trying to conquer over nature by their so-called scientific knowledge. They are such a rascal. You change the color of this fruit and flower, conquer over nature. So rascal, they talk rascal, "It will take millions of years." We have to wait million. "Yes, from chemical we shall bring life. Wait million of years." This is going on. And for such thing, big building, laboratory, research, scientific research. Big, big signboard. And the students out of disappointment, going to the roof and falling down, committing suicide. I saw it?

Harikeśa: Berkeley.

Prabhupāda: Berkeley. Very horrible condition. Let them do whatever they like, you live apart from them. Live peacefully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be happy. Let these cats and dogs go to hell; what can be done? We are trying to educate them as far as possible, but if they do not take it, that is their business. We are doing our duty, going door to door, "Read these books. If you like, you can come and live with us." What we can do more? We do not make any condition, that if you live with us you have to fulfill. Of course, the condition is that you should not act sinfully. That is the first condition. But we never say that you have to pay so many dollars. Come. Whatever little food we have got, we shall share. So try to understand the importance of this movement. Kṛṣṇa is giving us. This is a first-class place. You can develop it into a Vaikuṇṭha. It is already Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa is there. But develop it very nicely, peacefully live. Hundreds of miles away from the hellish cities. For little conveyance we can have bullock carts, when we have to get, transport. Very peaceful life. Introduce it and live peacefully. Am I right or wrong?

Devotee: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: These farming projects therefore I introduced, New Vrindaban, it is successful; Philadelphia, it is going on nicely; New Orleans; here also. In London we haven't got much land, but still we have got sufficient land.

 

Prabhupāda: Friday, that is also. Harer nāma, harer nāma. Everyone is happy, the children, the woman. They don't demand anything, that "Give us this, give us that." They have simplified, automatically they have simplified their life. And gradually develop, make little cottages, grow little vegetable, little barley or wheat and milk. That is sufficient. We don't require much. We don't want luxury. We want just to subsist. Yavad artha prayojana. We hate the idea of luxury, unnecessary. Do the outsider come to see? Yes?

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What do they say?

Bhagavān: They are impressed with how much we have done.

Prabhupāda: They will be more and more impressed. What is this city life? In Paris, simply to fulfill the necessities of life, a professional prostitute, so many. And people from all over the world, they come here for indulge in prostitute. From our childhood we know. What a civilization they have made. Spoiling the life. Then, after finish this life, you just become a cat, a dog, or a tree and stand up. And all other planets are vacant. Simply this planet is filled up, overpopulation. Kill them. Why not send there? So vacant land. (laughter) "That we cannot do." Then what is your scientific research? "Yes, we are trying. Wait millions of years." (laughter) These bluffing rascals. Don't be misled. Live peacefully here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

453609

Prabhupāda: Now I have given the ideas, the philosophy, in the books. So it is your business to develop all over the world. You are very intelligent, Europeans and Americans. Give it a shape, for the world prosperity. Give it a practical.... It is practical. There is no difficulty. So much land. Very good fertile land in Africa, Australia, in America. All of them can be utilized for the happiness of the whole world. The portal(?) has come or not?

 

Room Conversation                                     Paris Farm, August 2, 1976                                                        454073                                 

Hari-śauri: The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running--ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway, every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Simply increasing their miseries.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Problems.

Hari-śauri: The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in.

Prabhupāda: Not only many cars, they construct new roads, new... Increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness.

Hari-śauri: Happiness is the last consideration.

Prabhupāda: They are thinking that "In this way we shall be happy."

Hari-śauri: Get more money.

Prabhupāda: First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway, in this way. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ.

Hari-śauri: They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there.

Prabhupāda: No. That is called māyā. Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water.

Hari-śauri: He simply runs until he dies.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on.

Hari-śauri: Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking, this is what we could do forever, twenty-four hours. No need to do anything else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prospective place, this. Very future prospect.

                                                                                                                                                                        454064

Prabhupāda: They asked, "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first-class kacuri." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kacuris in my youthhood. I am fond of kacuri. Kacuri is made first class in Mathurā. Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kacuri is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make spice nicest. That is India's craftsmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, you prepare something palatable, and people will purchase, all over India.

Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling.

Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kacuri, jalebi, anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa. I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā, etc., and the wife will prepare many nice preparations--baòā, pakori, puskar (?), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down, he was sitting just in front of my shop, about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night, ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be... And he'll make at least ten rupees profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happy. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa, he was having his pūjā, going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees profit daily, very prosperous. Living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such families. The... If wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ.(?) Cāṇakya Paṇòita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇòita's instruction.

mūrkha yatrana pūjyante

dhanyaṁ yatra susaïcitam

dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti

tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ

There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture, now it is breaking. (about door or window) You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life, there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peaceful. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be... It is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition... Here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady's advertised. You remember it?

                                                                                                                                                                        454129

Hari-śauri: Was lunch all right? Prasādam?

Prabhupāda: The potatoes and karelā should be fried.

Harikeśa: Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on.

Prabhupāda: No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then...

Harikeśa: Then put the cover on. Oh, all right.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not from beginning.

Harikeśa: Oh, I made a mistake.

Prabhupāda: If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good.

                                                                                                                                                                        454155

Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it.

Bhagavān: Cows.

Prabhupāda: Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life.

Bhagavān: It's a very wonderful place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them.

Bhagavān: But I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land.

Prabhupāda: No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it.

Bhagavān: And the temple also, Deity worship and everything.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education--to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindaban many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, plants, flower plants, and... My grandmother, she... We, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri?

Bhagavān: Sprinkling can?

Prabhupāda: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. And like that. In my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place.

Bhagavān: It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: But more and more people are coming.

Prabhupāda: They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona, kona means someone; it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān. Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

(devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇòa bhramite? Guru-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya.

Hari-śauri: Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri:

brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service."

Prabhupāda: This is not for everyone.

Hari-śauri: There's a nice purport. Should I read the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇòa, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate (bhāgyavān), he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage. How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Śrīla Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.107):

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja."

Prabhupāda: Then? Then? No, it is not finished? Next verse?

Hari-śauri:

mālī haïā kare sei bīja āropaṇa       śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana

"When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Öhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Öhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana. This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called guru-kṛpā. It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. Bhakti-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja, or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jïāna-bīja. If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jïāna-bīja, or political and social or philanthropic bīja. However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja (yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ). Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja, or root cause, of karma, jïāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana--hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting (kīrtana). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā (2.41): vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can become free from material bondage.

Prabhupāda: The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                        454225

Hari-śauri: You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land.

Prabhupāda: Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water...

Hari-śauri: Irrigation.

Prabhupāda: In this way make it ever green.

Bhagavān: There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries.

Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away.

Bhagavān: Shouldn't be.

Hari-śauri: I think in all our farms they do that.

Bhagavān: I heard in New Vrindaban they took them away very early.

Hari-śauri: The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all.

Hari-śauri: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Not too much allowed, but once. At least while milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk.

Hari-śauri: Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They can bring it milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother.

Hari-śauri: They do that in India.

Prabhupāda: So she will not be sorry. Completely separation is not good. And after birth at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice, then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns, we do not know, but I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow, there was facility.

Bhagavān: I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindaban they do?

Hari-śauri: What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to... The whole system's so perfect, it's completely satisfying in every respect.

Prabhupāda: And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance.

                                                                                                                                                                        454239

Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice?

                                                                                                                                                                        454254

Prabhupāda: No, you have got this cucumber?

Devotee (1): Yes, there is cucumber.

Prabhupāda: So if fresh, why not eat?

Hari-śauri: We have fresh cucumber every day.

Prabhupāda: But when I take it does not appear to be fresh.

Devotee (1): These are bulk cucumbers.

Devotee (2): This is fresh cucumber from the garden.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh.

Devotee (1): It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked...

Prabhupāda: You are not aware? Why not?

Devotee (1): I was not aware.

Hari-śauri: He's our supplier.

Prabhupāda: At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas?

Devotee (1): They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee (1): Beans you have had every day from the garden.

Hari-śauri: Beans are very stringy.

Prabhupāda: Oh, so many fresh things.

Devotee (1): From the greenhouse they are actually.

Hari-śauri: What is this?

Devotee (1): That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees.

Prabhupāda: Very nice, very fresh, so many things can be done.

Hari-śauri: This is zucchini?

Prabhupāda: This called, this is, I do not know what you call. It is called komura.(?) It is very nice.

                                                                                                                                                                        454292

Bhagavān: We had a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice.

Prabhupāda: So you have got immediately some pods?

Devotee (1): And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhane.

Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. So, this pod?

Devotee (1): Peas, beans.

Prabhupāda: You have got some?

Devotee (1): Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Bring all them. (laughter)

                                                                                                                                                                        452298

Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? So bring some this pod. I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this.

Hari-śauri: How do you want them cooking?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll take it. Let them bring.

Hari-śauri: Bring some now? (laughter)

Bhagavān: Glories to Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. Tomorrow she can utilize it for kacuri. I've asked her to make kacuri. Let them use this.

Hari-śauri: They must have only just come ripe just this last week.

Prabhupāda: So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masalā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little the green chilis.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                    August 2, 1976, Paris                                                              453914

Prabhupāda: Oh, give them this garland. (break) ...he begins with surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So anyone who voluntarily offers obeisances, immediately he becomes fifty percent advanced. Because.... Who is talking? This material world means nobody wants to surrender. Everyone wants to become master: "I am the monarch of all I survey." Everyone is planning how to become a master. Therefore the struggle for existence. Nobody wants to become a servant. You know very well in European history, Napoleon wanted to become the master of all Europe. Hitler wanted also. Similarly, there were so many leaders, sometimes Roman leaders, sometimes Greek leaders, sometimes French leaders, sometimes German leaders, English leader. The whole European history is full of fighting, war. The basic idea is that everyone wanted to become master. That is the material disease. We are now discussing Bali Mahārāja. He also wanted to become master of the whole universe. So that is the material disease. Actually, master is one, Kṛṣṇa. There cannot be two masters. There is only one master, that is Kṛṣṇa, or God. But in the material world, because we have forgotten the real master, every one of us is trying to become master. This is material disease. Not only in one life, but life after life. The cats and dogs, they also want to be master. The dog, if he finds another dog coming, he immediately begins barking very loudly, "Why you are coming here?" So this mastership competition is going on life after life, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as fish, aquatic, sometimes as demigod, bird. This is the whole material situation. And the difficulty is that we cannot become master, but on account of our false ambition that "I shall become master," we are becoming servants of material nature. We are acting in a certain way to become master, creating a situation, mentality, and at the time of death, when this body finishes, the mind absorbed in that mastership idea takes me to another body according to my ambition, so I become again manifest in different body to exhibit my mastership. Another chapter begins. So they do not know how these subtle laws of material nature is working to give us opportunity to become master according to our idea, false idea. And we are actually suffering, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as trees, sometimes as dog. So the mastership cannot be attained. That is not possible. In the false idea to become master we are becoming slaves of the laws of material nature. This is real position, and that is suffering. So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. After many, many births, if by chance one gets the association of the servant of the Lord, then he understands that he is not master, he's servant of Kṛṣṇa. And then he surrenders. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Such great soul who has understood that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," he's a very great soul. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Very, very rare to be found. But that is the fact. The sooner we learn that we cannot become master, we are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, let us surrender to Kṛṣṇa and remain in our own position as servant, then it is perfection of life. Therefore one who surrenders, one who offers.... This is the beginning, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Namaskuru. Kṛṣṇa says namaskuru. Namaskuru means "Just offer your obeisances unto Me." So in the absence of.... Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but Kṛṣṇa sends His representative. So if we begin, offer namaskuru, to the representative, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, and then gradually, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and becomes situated in his own original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is perfection of life. Thank you very much.

Bhagavān: So let us pay our obeisances. (devotees offer obeisances)

                                                                                                                                                                        453941

Prabhupāda: He's good preacher. He's now distributing books very nicely. You are also good distributor books. Huh? In the beginning she was distributing nicely. So preaching is our life. The more we preach, the more we are successful. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching.

āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa

yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa'

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Every one of you become guru and deliver the residents of your neighborhood. Ei deśa. Wherever you are living, just deliver them. Become their guru. How to become guru? It is not difficult. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. What Kṛṣṇa has said instruct them. You simply repeat it, that's all. You become guru. So this should be preached all over the world. You learn from Bhagavad-gītā and repeat. You simply say, "Kṛṣṇa said four things: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. 'Just always think of Me.' Kṛṣṇa said. 'And just become My devotee. Just worship Me and offer obeisances.' Kindly do these things." So if you can induce one person to do these four things, you become guru. Is there any difficulty? Then you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. How? Always think of Kṛṣṇa. Worship Kṛṣṇa and offer obeisances. Here is our temple, please come, offer obeisances. Offer little flower if you can secure. Otherwise, obeisances sufficient. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You become guru. To inform this message is difficult? Not at all. You may carry the message. If he's fortunate, he'll do it. Even he does not do it, you are carrying the message, you become recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ. You are doing sincerely, then you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Just like a canvasser, salesman, goes to the market, tries his best to secure some business. The master sees the report how he has worked. Even though he has not secured a single paisa business, but he has tried to introduce the goods, then he's bona fide(?). He's bona fide(?). Similarly, we have to simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to convince people. If one is convinced, it is good, if not, doesn't matter, I am not going to.... Then you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Recognition means you become the dearest servant of Kṛṣṇa. Then what do you want more? If Kṛṣṇa recognizes that "You are My most dear servant," then what do you want more? Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. So this message was to be carried by all Indians. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

This is para-upakāra. So all Indians should take up this mission and do welfare activity. That is India's special function.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                 Paris Farm, August 2, 1976                                                       453972

Prabhupāda: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brāhmaṇa class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brāhmaṇa would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered śūdra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brāhmaṇa, then she is called brāhmaṇī, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as śūdra. So therefore a strict brāhmaṇa does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. Still there are in U.P. The wife will arrange for cooking, and he'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis. Then he will eat, and whatever remains, that is there, that will be taken by her. But he will not take foodstuff cooked by his even wife. And if there are several brāhmaṇas, so each one of them will cook his own food. In Calcutta, mostly the rich men they used to keep the collector's darwans, they are called darwans. Means guard, policemen, guard. They're all, very big, big brāhmaṇa family, they used to take, accept the job. But each of them, even in police, I have seen, they are cooking separately. They take bath thrice, cook their own food, very strictly. The government had to give them a big hall for cooking. So, it will not take much space, say, little space. One small oven and demarcated: "This, you see, is mine, and then I, you get, this is yours, this is yours." So within that space they'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis, rice, one vegetable, and cook, and immediately all the utensils will be cleansed and washed, and the space washed and kept. You'd like to eat, they cook so nicely, although simple. And I have got practical experience, if you cook your own food, whatever it may be, it is healthy.

Harikeśa: That a fact, yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you do it very carefully, then you'll never get disease. Take simple food, neat and clean, you'll not get disease. So everything depends on eating to keep the health proper. But these things can be simplified when the life is simple. If I go to work in office at this time, then so many things become topsy-turvied. But if you depend on yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya, you haven't got to depend on others, then you can do timely. Now we have to go fifty miles at least to attend office. In your country at least, this is the system. They are coming from Long Island, Liberty Island. In New York I have seen. Three, four hours to go to work. And again three, four hours to come to home. And work there eight hours. Then what is value? He's shattered. He has no other solace than wine, and he has no other culture. No family, dog friend (laughter) and television idea, that's all. What his life? Every man has got a dog friend because he has no family. Men, women, and television, engagement, I have seen it, all this, in New York.

Hari-śauri: If they do go out, it's just to go and get drunk.

Prabhupāda: And still, our landlord in 26 Second Avenue, if there is anything wrong in the apartment, he would personally do it. He could spare money to call a worker. He was alone. I don't think he had any dog, but he was always seeing the television, and when there was some complaint, he would come and work on it. He's landlord. And so many tenant, there is complaint always. Old house. That house was not very good, very old house.

Hari-śauri: There was many stories?

Prabhupāda: I think five, six stories.

Hari-śauri: Oh. You just had the shop at the bottom.

Prabhupāda: Bottom shop and the first floor, I took my...

Harikeśa: With a garden.

Prabhupāda: Not a garden, but there was some vegetables.

Hari-śauri: Few plants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not bad. For me, it was very convenient, come down immediately to my down storefront. And some boys were living in the storefront. There was a sink in the storefront, and for toilet I allowed them sometimes in my bathroom. Not some, only two or one. So he was washing my dishes also. In this way, I was living.

Hari-śauri: That was Mukunda, or...?

Prabhupāda: No, that was another boy. He was drunkard. (laughter)

Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of those meetings at 26 Second Avenue, with Hayagrīva with the beard and the long hair hitting this... There's pictures of all those meetings, photographs. Of Hayagrīva with the beard and long hair hitting the gong next to you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Long hairs almost everyone. This Umāpati was also one of them.

Harikeśa: He said he was eating meat up until the point you gave him the beads on the day of initiation.

Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva.

Harikeśa: No, Umāpati. He said then, next, from that point he gave up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They were trained up in such a way from the beginning of their life. I have seen small children they give powdered meat mixed with hot water and spoon. Is it now? What can be done? Poor child.

Hari-śauri: They made them eat meat. My nephew used to refuse, so they used to force him to eat it.

Prabhupāda: Just see, by nature refusing, and by force...

Hari-śauri: They they develop a taste. My mother said that I used to refuse as well, but then they made me. Now I got a taste.

Prabhupāda: So in my childhood, when I was one and one-half years old, I suffered from typhoid, and the Dr. Karttika Candra Bose, he said that he, "Please give him chicken juice." So my father refused: "No, no, we cannot." "No, no he has to be given. Now he has become very weak." "No, no, I cannot allow." "Don't mind, I shall prepare in my own house and send. You simply..." So it was sent from his house, and when it was given to me, immediately I began to vomit. And my father threw it away, and when the doctor asked that this was the... "No, no, then don't bother." This story I heard. This allopathetic system of medicine introduced all these things in India. Otherwise they did not know.

Hari-śauri: What system?

Prabhupāda: This meat-eating, chicken juice, tea, these things are unknown to India. No, why India? By nature, you say that you refused meat. Although you were born of a father and mother meat-eaters, still. What a horrible civilization they have made. He's human being born. Making him animal by culture. Instead of making him more cultured towards the spiritual life, making him redirected again to animal life. This is the civilization, Western civilization.

Hari-śauri: Yes, there's not much choice, not any choice.

Prabhupāda: These children are fortunate. Yesterday I was astonished how these children were receiving just like friend, laughing and something saying, you have seen it? As an old friend. Their mother pushes they would not come, but they were very glad to see me.

Hari-śauri: Everybody's very glad to see you.

Prabhupāda: I was astonished, that how these children take me as friend.

Hari-śauri: I don't think that's too difficult. You're the best friend for everyone.

Prabhupāda: No, but after all, they are children. How they can take it as it is? So they are fortunate children, and their parents and everyone should take care of them. A very difficult age.

Hari-śauri: You always said they're our asset for the future.

Prabhupāda: If they can be trained up, they can become very good preacher, each one of them. And they can make hundreds of devotees. In this way we can expand. Are you realizing that there is no civilization? Actually civilization we are introducing. Except Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization, there is no civilization--animal society. What do you think? Are you convinced about it?

Harikeśa: Oh, yes, every time I walk out the door I'm convinced. And when you come back to the temple, it's marvelous, the spiritual world. No matter what going on, may be bad, may be good, doesn't matter. It's very relieving.

Prabhupāda: Civilization means to push the man forward for perfection. That is civilization.

Hari-śauri: Development.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Society and economic condition, everything should be so arranged that this human child should be gradually pushed for perfection of life, go back home, back to Godhead. This is civilization. And modern civilization is "Don't care for what is going to happen. So long you live, eat, drink, be merry, enjoy," that's all. Sense gratification. This is called nāstika-vāda. Very dangerous. And that is going on all over the world. How a gentleman can live in that society?

Hari-śauri: They can't. Gradually people...

Prabhupāda: Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This is not a place for a gentleman." Formerly, therefore, they used to go away from the society, go in the forest, to give up this bad association. Live alone.

Hari-śauri: Practically speaking, that's what we've done. By your establishing these temples, it's given us someplace to go where we can get out of Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Therefore our temples should be very carefully managed. It may not become again another pandemonium.

Harikeśa: Pan-demon. Pan-demon-ium.

Hari-śauri: Says that in the dictionary.

Harikeśa: Place of demons.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given us many nice places. People can live very comfortably. There will be no scarcity. Cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. That is wanted. Therefore in this old age I am struggling so much to see that things are going on nicely. So far I have seen, it is going on nice. But maybe the management is lacking. It may be the māyā is very strong. So be careful. All, you are all old students, and try to organize more and more solidly. The children should be taken, you can give lectures to the mothers, that children should be taken care of. They are future hopes. Child is the father of man. They say that we escape. What we are escaping? We have got all types of social society. There is gṛhastha, there is sannyāsī, there is brahmacārī. Whichever position is suitable, you accept and keep yourself sincere, that's all. Unnatural there is nothing. Is there anything unnatural? And if they think that we're prohibiting this meat-eating, this is unnatural, that we cannot. That is not unnatural, that is natural.

Harikeśa: I notice these four things, they are very unnatural, these four sinful things, very unnatural.

Prabhupāda: Unnatural, yes. What for smoking? What for drinking? How nicely they sit down on the ground and take prasādam. Why there is need of table, chair and these dishes and fork and knife and so on, so on? Why?

Harikeśa: It's hard to cut the meat. You need a good surface. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Our Bon Mahārāja, once I was eating in his festival and... He's a bara-sahib. So he has given fork and knife. (laughs) So I did not know, I do not remember even which way I took fork. So Bon Mahārāja began to criticize "You are going to foreign country you do not know which hand to take this fork and knife." So I told him, "I am not going to learn all these things. I am going to teach them something else, to forget it. (laughter) You went to learn all these things. But I am not going to learn anything."

Harikeśa: What did he say to that? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: It was our...

Hari-śauri: He's following the line of Vivekananda.

Prabhupāda: Just see how rascal they are. My Guru Mahārāja every step condemned this Ramakrishna Mission and Vivekananda. He said frankly that if there are any impediments for our movement, that is this Gandhi and Vivekananda. He said frankly. Hodge-podge. Gandhi's also hodge-podge. He was a politician, and in politics he mixed some spiritual ideas, hodge-podge. And this Vivekananda was also politician. His name was recorded in the government as "sannyāsī-politician." Because after returning from America, he began to preach to make the poor man rich, and these weak, fatty, and so on, exercise. So the government took it that he's, under the dress of a sannyāsī, he's preaching social and political upliftment. So his name was recorded as "sannyāsī- politician." And his name was also recorded, "political saint," Gandhi. After all, the British government, they were very intelligent. They could understand what is what. Otherwise, how they were managing this big empire? Very intelligent, there is no doubt about it. And actually they were intelligent. When they were managing, we were happy, actually. Nobody can deny it. Although they were exploiting. But nobody could understand. Everyone was feeling happy. And as soon as they left, everyone is unhappy. That distinction I can give evidence, I can, from my personal experience. Things were very, very nice. Calcutta, oh, it was so nice city. Now it is hell. It is same Calcutta. Why it is now hell? Hidden(?) garden, that was a nice garden. So... Everywhere hell, only hell. Calcutta was considered the nicest city in India, better than Bombay, but it has become now hell. The streets, especially those quarters in our temple.

Hari-śauri: I think Calcutta was voted the second dirtiest city in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācchā? Just see. And it was next to London. People used to say, "In the British Empire, first London, second Calcutta." And now it is...?

Hari-śauri: Second dirtiest city.

Prabhupāda: And who is the first?

Harikeśa: Karachi.

Hari-śauri: Karachi. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Both of them got sva-rāja, Pakistan and India. That means after getting sva-rāja..., Karachi was one of the first-class city, yes. They cannot manage. Unfit persons, they are on the top of government.

Hari-śauri: Seems everything is devolving at a phenomenal rate. Every decade that passes, everything breaks down twice as fast. Just in the last twenty years or thirty years everything has become so much degraded and...

Prabhupāda: No, I have got experience. I am Calcutta born. What Calcutta was in our childhood days and what is now, I know everything. How we were happy during British days and what is now position, I can speak from my personal experience. We do not belong to the richest class nor to the poor class--middle class. So we have got practical experience. My father's income was not more than 250 rupees. How opulent we were. At least, there was no question of need. We were receiving daily four, five guests, and my father was functioning so many festivals and he was asking... My father gave in marriage four daughters. There was no difficulty. The income was not more than 250 rupees. Of course, that 250 rupees at least ten times now. But still, there was no needy. Not very opulent, but there was no need. The first necessity is to feed and to clothe. So there was no such scarcity. May not be very luxurious life, but there was no scarcity for food and shelter or cloth. There was no scarcity. Happy. That is wanted. Happiness in whatever circumstance. Not that because we did not possess a motorcar, therefore unhappy. I purchased one motor car in 1925, Buick car. Not for personal use, but for using it as a taxi. My one nephew, he was a good driver, so my father, "Why don't you give him? He can do that, we can use it our own car also taxi." So I took it, Buick car, I think I paid eight thousand rupees.

Hari-śauri: Buick?

Prabhupāda: Buick, yes, very strong car. At that time, Ford, Chevrolet and Buick, these cars were very popular in India. Ford for the poorer class and Buick for the first class.

Hari-śauri: Your nephew was a taxi driver.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nephew was my sister's son. We had to maintain one sister and her family. She became widow. So this is Hindu family obligation. When the daughter is widow, she comes to the father's shelter with all family. The father has to maintain.

Hari-śauri: You wouldn't get that in the West. (laughs) They don't even maintain their own parents.

Prabhupāda: On the whole, during British time, people were happy, that I can... The thing is that Britishers were little afraid that "If the government is not good, it will go against our credit, that we may agitate." So they were careful to see that people are happy. But here nobody's careful. Everyone thinks "I'm in my own country. Whatever I do, it is all right." They were conscious, that "We are foreigners. If the management is not good, then it will go against our credit and it will be difficult working such a big England empire." So they were little careful. But these rascals are not... Just like the governor, he was friendly, but what is the report? Did he say? Did not behave very nicely?

Harikeśa: He wasn't interested to help for the tax exemption.

Hari-śauri: Yes, you told me before, Bon Mahārāja and Tīrtha Mahārāja, they were writing all these big, big men, but they told them frankly, that "I'm not going to do anything for you."

Prabhupāda: None of them. Formerly, a British governor, secretary, was a friend. You could get some service from him. The Britishers they knew the etiquette that if friends ask some help, I must help you. That is etiquette.

Hari-śauri: Now there's so much self-interest, they don't...

Prabhupāda: It is expected.

Hari-śauri: Still, due to the British presence, isn't that the main reason why India has become so degraded now?

Prabhupāda: Yes, from...

Hari-śauri: Because they introduced so many bad things?

Prabhupāda: Yes, from cultural point of view, they are degraded. And that was that British policy, to kill them culturally. Otherwise not possible to rule over them.

Hari-śauri: They always advertised that India was so backward because that was a justification for their being there, that "We shall go and educate."

Prabhupāda: They used to advertise like that.

Hari-śauri: Then they could exploit and avoid criticism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so many bad things Britishers introduced. Bad things means Western type of civilization.

Hari-śauri: Sometimes people, they say, we're always glorifying Indian culture, so why are they so badly off? So we tell them it's because they've give up the culture that they're badly off. Otherwise, a hundred years ago there was no problem. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                        August 3, 1976, Paris                                                              454615

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything grown in the garden, that is hundred times valuable than it is purchased from the market. (pause) Bhagavad-gītā is a book which can guide the whole human society. In all different branches of knowledge, namely in politics, in sociology, in religion, in culture, in philosophy, in economics, everything, all lines are described very vividly, and the human society can take advantage of it. The Bhagavad-gītā begins in the battlefield with politics. And when Arjuna declined to fight, how Kṛṣṇa chastised him, that is described, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam. Find out this verse.

                                                                                                                                                                        454626

Prabhupāda: That is preaching method. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, tṛṇād api sunīcena. You can explain that:

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

This is the method by the preacher.

Bhagavān: A devotee should always feel lower than the straw in the street. (Mrs. Marchand speaks)

Translator: She wants to know if it is recommended that a woman become a sannyāsī.

Prabhupāda: Woman should stay under the father, under the husband, and under the elderly sons. Nothing more. Therefore it is the duty of the father to give her in charge of a young man when she is young. This is Vedic culture.

Translator: She's asking what should a woman do if she is alone?

Prabhupāda: She cannot be alone. Na sataritatam ananti(?). Woman should not be allowed... Just like children. Children cannot be alone. They must taken care of. Similarly a woman, in childhood, should be taken care of by the father; when she's young, she should be taken care of by the husband; and when she's old, she should be taken care of by elderly sons. You'll find in the Vedic literature, the father's responsibility is until she's handed over to a suitable young man. And the husband's responsibility is so long she hasn't got elderly children. At that time, when she has got elderly children, he can leave home and take sannyāsa. So the process is a woman is kept under protection always. There is no independence for woman. That is... Still, in India it is going on. The father is obliged to find out a suitable husband for the daughter and give her in his charge. Then his responsibility finished. Until that, she is, he's responsible to take care of the daughter. Unmarried girl to remain always under the protection of the father.

Yogeśvara: But today there seem to be so few qualified husbands.

Prabhupāda: Because you do not train the boys to be qualified. You train them to become debauch. What can be done? You train them from brahmacārī, then they'll be responsible husbands. Both the girls and the boys should be trained up. Then they'll be responsible husband and wife and live peacefully. In their young days, if you give them freedom, they'll spoil. What can be done? Young, youthful days, if you give them full freedom, they'll be misguided and spoiled.

Translator: She's asking that since in these Western countries the families are so broken up and the women sometimes cannot find a qualified husband, what should she do?

Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. The difficulty is the modern society, the leaders, they do not know the aim of life. They are blindly doing everything like animals. Their philosophy is like the animals. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, that's all. This is the philosophy of the animals. And human philosophy is to understand first of all what I am. I am this body or something else? That is human life. But nobody questions this, there is no institution to teach this science, therefore the whole human society is misguided. Just like if I want to train my boy to become a medical man, then I teach him biology, botany, similar... So if... Because I know I shall make my boy a medical man. Similarly, we should know what is the aim of human life. Then we have to construct the social political, everything, favorable to that end. But they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the whole mistake. I think that in Bible there is a story, prodigal son? So we are prodigal son. We are all sons of God, now we have become prodigal sons. What is the meaning of prodigal? "Without any responsibility," is it not? Do whatever you like.

Translator: Run away from the protection of the family.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our position, that we are sons of God, we have given up protection of God. God is protecting in all circumstances.

Hari-śauri: It says "Prodigal: recklessly wasteful."

Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the... We are all recklessly wasteful sons of God. We are sons of God, there is no doubt, but at the present moment, recklessly wasteful. We are wasting our valuable life even, we are so reckless. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to check their recklessness and bring them into senses of responsibility, going back home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But people are so reckless, as soon as you say something of God, immediately they laugh, "Oh, what is nonsense, God." This is the supreme recklessness. India was very serious about God. Still, India is serious. Now, the present leaders, they are thinking that Indians are spoiled, simply thinking of God--they're not thinking like the Americans and Europeans for economic development. So this is the position, and it is very difficult, but still we can do something this to the humanity, by preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And those who are fortunate, they'll come, take up seriously. These reckless prodigal sons, we have got so many examples. For example, just like there is some stock of petroleum and they got information that from petroleum they can run on cars without horse. So, manufacture millions of cars and spoil the whole oil. This is recklessness. And when it is finished, then they'll cry. And it will be finished. This is going on. Recklessness. Just as reckless boy, father has left some property, use it, use it. As soon as you get. The sooner it is finished, that's all. That is recklessness. There is some strength in the body, and as soon as he gets a little taste of sex life, "Oh, spend it, spend it," whole energy spent. The brain becomes vacant. This is recklessness. Beginning from twelfth year, by the thirty year, everything finished. Then he's impotent. In our childhood--in our childhood means, say, eighty years ago, or say, a hundred years ago--there was no motorcar. And now, wherever you go, in any country, you see thousands and millions of car. This is recklessness. Hundreds years ago they could do without motorcar, and now they cannot live without a car. In this way, unnecessarily, they're increasing bodily or material necessities of life. This is recklessness. And the leaders will say, "Stop this nonsense, come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness," nobody will care. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. This is called blind leader leading blind followers. They do not know that both of them are bound up by the strict, stringent laws of nature. (break) ...how the laws of nature is working. They are completely in ignorance. They do not know. This is modern civilization. The laws of nature must work in its own way. You care for it or do not care for it, that is your business, but the laws of nature will work. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. But these rascals, they do not know how the laws of nature will work. They are endeavoring artificially for, foolishly, to overcome the laws of nature. This is science, rascal's science, which is impossible, but they are trying. This is called rascaldom. Stupidity. Do the scientists not say like that? "We are trying to overcome." Rascal, you'll never be able to do that. But this rascaldom is going on. And they're applauding, "Oh, very good, very good, very good." "Oh, you are going to the moon planet." But after all endeavor, the grapes are sour: "It is not useful." That's all. You know the story? The jackal? He tried for the grapes, jumping, jumping, jumping. When it was failure, he said, "Oh, it is useless. It is sour, no use." (laughter) So they are doing like that. The jackals are jumping, that's all. And we can see how these rascals are jumping uselessly. (laughter) So we are warning people not to follow these silly jackals. Be prudent and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That will make your life successful.

Hari-śauri: You want to go for a walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is Ulain. He is from the Ivory Coast in Africa. And he is very sincere, and he is also attempting to start Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Africa in the Ivory Coast.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Yogeśvara: He had a question for you.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you remain here for some time. Be trained up. Because every one of us, we have followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advice. First of all, let your personal life be successful, then try to do good to others. The, all over the world, they have simply followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. When you are trained up to follow Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Then you can do something. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. We have to follow Kṛṣṇa alone. Not all these rascals, silly jackals. Then our life is successful. Kṛṣṇa can give you all guidance. In all respective necessities of life, there is everything complete. We haven't got to follow the silly jackals. So here is a nice place, you stay here and forget the silly jackals and take to Kṛṣṇa alone or His devotees. Then you can start very nicely a center anywhere. That is the duty of everyone. We should open hundreds and thousands of centers all over the world. But one who is going to open, he must be first of all trained up.

Translator: He's wondering, he's convinced about Kṛṣṇa consciousness himself, but he is wondering why in a country or a continent like Africa, which is not so scientifically or technologically developed...

Prabhupāda: There is no need of.

Translator: There is no need. So he is wondering why we only have two temples in Africa. Is it because...

Prabhupāda: Because language difficulty.

Translator: Language difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no difficulty. Still, even without language, without talking, if you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone will follow. And give them prasādam, they will take. And that will be good preaching. It doesn't require language or anything. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them nice prasāda. They will take. That will be good preaching. But who is chanting, he must be a sincere devotee. Then his chanting will be effective. A gramophone machine will not do. He must be realized, then his chanting will be effective. Satāṁ prasaìgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. He must behave just like a pure Vaiṣṇava. Then if he chants, his chanting will be effective. Just like electricity. If I am surcharged with electricity, I touch, you also become electric. And if he touches, he'll become. But if one is not in touch with electricity, then it will not act. So one must be electrified. Then if he touches somebody, he'll be electrified. If there is no electricity, simply by touching, he'll not do.

Translator: He says that on the Ivory Coast, this country, until he becomes electrified, he knows that the President of the country is very favorable to our movement, he has the Bhagavad-gītā and he thinks that we should open a temple there.

Prabhupāda: Immediately do it. Immediately do it. I am simply explaining the process. But do it immediately, Kṛṣṇa will give you power. If you are sincere, you'll be electrified. There is no doubt. So?

Hari-śauri: Go for a walk?

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                   August 3, 1976, Paris                                                               454341

Prabhupāda: The whole world is becoming CIA. (laughter) We can say, that "All right, the Americans have sent their CIA, but why the Germans business there? They are also CIA?" And where is... Soon the Russians also will join, the Polish also will join, everyone will join.

Bhagavān: Africans.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: They can't say the Russians are CIA. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No. We have got potency to force everyone to join. The Russians have already imperceptibly joined--they have praised my books. That is imperceptible, what is called?

Harikeśa: Ajïāta-sukṛti.

Prabhupāda: Ah. In East Germany also, they have placed order. So this is joining. Just like for us, if you bring any other literature, we throw it away immediately. We take it as useless. Actually it is. We have nothing to learn from them, anything. All bogus. Either he's scientist or astronomer, or..., we know they are talking all bogus things. There may be some truth. Even that truth is there when a child speaks, there is some truth. When a child speaks to his parents, there is some truth, otherwise where is the question of talking? So little portion truth is there, everywhere. But when they talk of big, big things--they are going to Mars and scratching sand there--that we don't believe. That we don't believe. When they talk of this tape recorder, some electronic machine, joining together and it is working, that much care you can take. But when you speak of so many things, that millions of years there were germs and germination, now they are trying to come out, and it is all vacant--these are all bogus, we don't accept. Talking too much. In Bengal it is called yatap(?) When the same child speaks something too much, "Ah, stop." To the extent of his capacity, that's all right. But if you talk more than that, then you are rascal. So they are doing that now. Because they have got some electronic success, or they have manufactured some jet plane, or these, they are now thinking "Now we have owned over the whole world situation." That is nonsense. They are thinking like that: "Now we have control over the world world." That is yatam,(?) speaking more than their capacity. And so far we are concerned, we don't talk anything, except what is mentioned in the books. That's all. We remain always foolish. And as foolish men, we do not talk. We simply talk what is mentioned by Vyāsadeva, by Śukadeva Gosvāmī. That's all. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu... These things have been discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that in the material world, the only pleasure is sex. There is no pleasure. Always working hard like asses, that's all, everyone. Not only in one. Life after life, life after life. This is material. And... (children outside yelling) So why they are here?

Bhagavān: Children?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: I'll tell them... (to devotee outside) Those children out there, their terrible screaming's disturbing Prabhupāda.

Harikeśa: They're all the way down the road.

Bhagavān: Get them all off the road.

Prabhupāda: This is the trap of māyā, to keep them captivated by sex attraction. All these living entities who are in this material world, beginning from the higher planetary system down to the ants and germs and flies. This is the primary enjoyment, sex. The central attraction is sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. The human being, the same sex desire, they decorate it in a different way. But the central point is the same. "So all right, why? It is enjoyment, why you are forbidding?" Saintly persons say, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇòūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is a pleasure of itching sensation. Itching sensation, when you itch, it is very pleasing. But bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Aftereffect is very bad, suffering. Itching, if you itch more, it aggravates, sometimes causes so many other by-products and so on, so on. That is fact. But everyone knows it, that "I may enjoy sex pleasure now; the aftereffect will be very bad." Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. But why people do it again and again? Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Those who are kṛpaṇa--kṛpaṇa means not brāhmaṇa--those who are not trained up as a brāhmaṇa, they cannot tolerate this itching sensation. They become victimized and the aftereffect is very, very bad. So either illicit or not illicit... They know it. The modern civilization, they have adopted the means of killing. First of all, they try to stop pregnancy by contraceptive method, and still if it is not stopped, then kill. And if he's still born, then again they put up in a box and go away. You know this?

Harikeśa: Yes, the baby, they put it in a closet and lock the door and walk out.

Hari-śauri: Oh, in Japan.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is happening in Japan and other places. They put, and when the obnoxious smell comes, they open it and they find. Mother has become so kind. They put in a box and lock it up.

Hari-śauri: Airport lockers.

Prabhupāda: These are happening. But when you talk of that "You learn how to become brahmacārī," that they will refuse. This is the position. The aftereffect is very, very bad, either you get legally or illegally. Legally, we have to raise the children very nicely. Otherwise, they will, unwanted children, create so much trouble. You have to take care for their proper education, of their clothes.(?) We say, "Never mind, you have got children, give them proper education, make them devotees, make their life successful." We cannot say that "You kill them." That we cannot say. That is not possible. Neither we can pack them in the, what is that box?

Hari-śauri: Lockers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children. There is no question of economic problem. We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam. From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians. No. That is not wanted. That anyone, if he has got some inclination, he can do it personally. There is no harm. General training is that he must be a devotee, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That should be introduced. Otherwise, the gurukula will be... Otherwise Jyotirmayī was suggesting the biology. What they'll do with biology? Don't introduce unnecessary nonsense things. Simple life. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let them be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to serve Him, that's all. Huh? (indistinct) What is that? māyār bośe, jāccho bhese' khāccho hābuòubu bhāi jīv kṛṣṇa-dās ei biśwās korle to ār duḥkho nāi. So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely. If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed. Important places like Germany, France, England. Now we are getting place. I like that place, German, on account of this. It has got scope.

Harikeśa: There's no land.

Prabhupāda: That you can acquire, that you can acquire. But building is very nice.

Hari-śauri: We don't own that place, though, do we?

Prabhupāda: Never mind, own or not own. You possess and that's all. You don't own anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Do you think it is, you own this?

Hari-śauri: No, I was thinking in terms of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: This is all Kṛṣṇa's property. So long He likes, we shall remain. That's all. I know that. (laughs) Just like we entered Bhaktivedanta Manor without any arrangement. I know that so long Kṛṣṇa will like, we shall... If Kṛṣṇa says "Go away," we shall go away, what is that? Why so much legal implication? Everywhere, although we have got big, big buildings, I don't think we own it. It is Kṛṣṇa's. So long He likes, we shall remain there, if He doesn't like, we shall go away. What is this? Why you should stress on the proprietorship?

Hari-śauri: No, I was just thinking in terms of the karmīs.

Prabhupāda: They are not proprietor.

Harikeśa: Would you like that tomatoes and cucumber and...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bring. Mānasa deho geho jo kichu mor arpiluì tuwā pade nanda-kiśora. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. "Whatever I have got, it is all Yours." Ānukūlyasya saìkalpa. Whatever is favorable, take it, that's all. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇa-anuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā. This is? What is that, apple?

Devotee (1): Apple, cucumber. The apples are not fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from the tree, because those apples you saw yesterday were just for cooking. They're very sour...

Bhagavān: They have eating apples. We have eating apples.

Devotee (1): They're sour, too sour. Just for cooking.

Bhagavān: That's fresh cucumber? And our tomato?

Devotee (1): They're a little warm because they've been in the sun all day.

Bhagavān: The peas were good last night?

Prabhupāda: Very good, but I could not digest them. That is my fault, but, oh, it was so nice palatable. Chick peas, chick peas, grow fresh. Eat very nicely, keep strong, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. Don't depend on this outside work and then gradually become debauch, thief, rogues, prostitutes. Is that civilization? They cannot imagine that the modern civilization can go without all these things. Do they not? Slaughterhouse, brothel, cheating, diplomacy, roguery, drinking--without this, no civilization. We are quite opposed. We want to show it is possible, yes. You can stop all this nonsense and still you go on as a perfect civilized man. With character, knowledge, satisfaction, everything. They are trying to gather knowledge by sending so many machines up to date. We have already got. We say you cannot go there, you are simply wasting your time. We have got so much knowledge. No, you can attempt, just like a monkey, that's all right. But our verdict is already there. You cannot go there. Ten years before I said this moon excursion is simply childish and waste of money in my Easy Journey to Other Planets. I am not a scientist, but how I dared to say? Because I know, I have got full knowledge. That is the difference. Without becoming scientist, we can give our verdict. Veda-pramāṇam. (Prabhupāda is eating) Umm, better give this fresh fruit. Don't bring all rotten. In the market you cannot get fresh. All three hundred years old. Anything fresh, that is full of vitamin. Grow fresh, take fresh. In India there is no system to purchase three-hundred-years-old bread and eat. It must be freshly made. Wife is preparing in the simple oven, husband is eating, children are eating. You know Yaśodāmāyī calling Kṛṣṇa? "Come back! Your father is waiting!" You remember this? That is Indian system. The father and the children, they sit down, mother will bring fresh dāl, rice and cāpāṭi, and distribute, and they eat. We used to do that. Along with father we shall sit down for eating, separately. There was no need of table--on the ground. And mother will distribute, cook. No servant; mother personally, wife personally.

Bhagavān: In the Kṛṣṇa book you describe that in Kṛṣṇa's palace there were so many beautiful maidservants, but Rukmiṇī chose to fan Kṛṣṇa personally.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, in Indian family system, when the husband comes from office, the wife takes care immediately. Even in these days. That is, at least, a manifestation of faithfulness.

                                                                                                                                                                        454378

Prabhupāda: The cucumber cutting, there is a process. I'll show you. Sometimes cucumber is bitter. By that process it can be avoided.

Harikeśa: You mean chop the top and you go...

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. That's all right.

Devotee (1): This is bitter?

Prabhupāda: We tasted one piece. Yes, little bitter.

Bhagavān: When they work in the fields, we have speakers all over the land, and they hear you chanting all day long.

Prabhupāda: Very good. This should be arranged with lemon juice. If you have got these fruits, there is no need of purchasing.

Bhagavān: The tomatoes are supposed to be as good as oranges. The tomatoes are supposed to be as healthy as oranges.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In our childhood, these tomatoes were called foreign eggplant, bilāti beguna. And because it was foreign, nobody will touch it. In our childhood we'd never eat the tomato. It was rejected by whole Indian Hindu culture.

Harikeśa: Tomatoes don't grow in India?

Prabhupāda: No. It was imported. Because it was imported they would not touch. The mill cloth, because they were imported, no gentleman will touch. No religious function would allow to use mill-made cloth. And so far medicine is concerned, they would never touch it. This is the difficulty... (indistinct) sent a confidential report that if you want to keep Indians as Indian you'll never be able to do like that. Then they will gradually introduce all this nonsense, drinking tea, drinking wine. "You are uncivilized. Whatever British are doing, they are civilized way. England's work in India." And they were given facilities, those who were English educated. In this way, they first of all tried to make the whole Indian population Anglici... Not possible to all. At least, those who are educated. So the so-called Indian educated, they took it seriously. Just like our Bon Mahārāja. English way of living, with fork and... Yes. He has taken it seriously. He is under impression, whatever is foreign. In this way Indian culture was killed. The Muhammadans, they had no such idea. They wanted to rule over, that's all. And the money was not going to outside They were spending lavishly--in India. The money was in India, but these people, they're dispersing all the money, jewels, and everything valuable, outside India. So they became poverty-stricken. And culturally conquered. (aside) Not so many. This will be enough.

Bhagavān: One time you said that they criticized you when you were going to America because you did not know about the knife and the fork?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bon Mahārāja. And the book English Etiquette. Very big book. How to sit, how to laugh, how to smile, how to pass water, how to this... (laughter) And they would learn it and waste time. (pause)

So, if you grow more, and offer fruits to the Deity in the evening, and this will be very nice.

 

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is nice. In the morning also you give me fresh fruit and that milk and medicine, that's all. And when I'm (indistinct), someday we can take puri and... (end)

 

Room Conversation(3)                                     August 3, 1976, Paris                                                             454406

Prabhupāda: ...any expert in your country who can fry foodgrains in hot sand.

Bhagavān: Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine.

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? How? What is that machine?

Bhagavān: When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine.

Prabhupāda: But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. You can make hot sand, it is not difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some, another pot, and put the hot sands under it and then agitate. And it will puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff, they'll be finished.

Bhagavān: Put the hot sand where?

Prabhupāda: Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there.

Hari-śauri: Underneath the pot?

Prabhupāda: Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot, the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it.

Hari-śauri: Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed-up grains. That is very good food.

Hari-śauri: Devotees make popcorn.

Bhagavān: That's another thing.

Prabhupāda: Popcorn, they fry it in ghee, hot ghee.

Hari-śauri: Not much though, just a little.

Prabhupāda: No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand...

Bhagavān: It's light.

Prabhupāda: Very light. In the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk, very good breakfast. I mean to say all self-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha. Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. That is real business.

Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours.

Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has, there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Some old man?

Bhagavān: He's a life member from Belgium.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered.

Bhagavān: It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm, nice part of the day.

Prabhupāda: I think this part is better situated than New Vrindaban, eh? What do you think?

Hari-śauri: This is a lot nicer.

Prabhupāda: New Vrindaban is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also.

Hari-śauri: Pennsylvania is very good.

Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So, try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired.

Bhagavān: Yes. No one is getting any salary here, they are just working and taking...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now?

Bhagavān: Eight-thirty.

Prabhupāda: I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā-bhāvikī jïāna-bala-kriyā ca. Construction--eḥ?--of the flower. And there is no intelligence.

Hari-śauri: Chance.

Prabhupāda: So beat them with shoes and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter)

Bhagavān: It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard.

Prabhupāda: So show the simple example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy.

Hari-śauri: People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else.

Prabhupāda: My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation. Some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much, nowadays, for upkeep of the home, very... That, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping?

Bhagavān: Yes.

                                                                                                                                                                        454442

Prabhupāda: Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        454492

Bhagavān: Did you get some barley flour?

Prabhupāda: I don't have any.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) We can't make, it's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis. It's just too coarse.

Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk.

Hari-śauri: You mean a mortar and pestle?

Prabhupāda: Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste.

 

Prabhupāda: Chick peas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June--June, July, August.

 

Prabhupāda: Now this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors.

Bhagavān: I think you are feeling a little better?

Prabhupāda: Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors.

 

Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl?

Bhagavān: Mung dāl. This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch.

Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested.

Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong.

Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl? Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber.

 

Morning Walk                                              August 8, 1976, Tehran                                                             454954

Prabhupāda: ...that this body which we are taking so much care, will leave automatically when the time is finished. And I'll have to accept another body. Useless. The body, which I am taking so much care, will leave me. I'll not have to say, "Body, you leave me," but the body will leave me. When my period... Just like the house rented under lease, and as soon as the lease is over you have to vacate that house, or forcibly the house owner will oblige you to vacate. So what is the use of becoming so much attached to the body? What is the answer?

Nava-yauvana: There is no use.

Prabhupāda: Every one of us, we are attached to the body, and on account of being attached to the body the material activities are going on. These motorcars are running, karmīs are going here and there, what is the purpose? To maintain the road? Divasa śarīra-sāje. Miche nida-baśe gelo re rāti divasa śarīra-sāje. The body is given rest at night to revive, and daytime the activities for the matter of maintaining the body. But despite my all endeavor to maintain this body, it will not stay. It will give up my company and I'll have to accept another. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So Bali Mahārāja says "What is the use of such endeavor?" Therefore big, big saintly persons, they do not care for the body. Lie down anywhere. But they are very serious about spiritual advancement. And people in general, they are interested in maintaining the body. It is not that we should be neglectful to the body. That example is also there. Just like we require fruits and flowers. So if we neglect the tree, there will be no fruits and flower. If we cut the tree, it will dry up and there will be no fruits and flowers. The fruits and flowers, this human body, the fruits and flowers mean self-realization. Bali Mahārāja analyzes the family. He says family means rogues and thieves. Whatever you want, they'll take away. The pickpocket takes from your pocket and he becomes a criminal, and when the wife takes thousand dollars from your pocket, you do not consider her to be criminal. You laugh, "Oh, you have taken the money?" "Yes, I've taken." The business is a pickpocket. But in one case we say "criminal," and one case we say "friend." The business is the same. Svajanākhya-dasyu. Actually thieves and rogues, but we have named them "relatives."

 

Evening Conversation                                   Teheran, August 8, 1976                                                           455208

Jïānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said.

Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that, preach in America vigorously. If America accepts, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavatam. What is that sound coming? There is goat?

Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep.

Prabhupāda: Lamb.

Parivrājakācārya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for?

Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing.

Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home?

Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home with his head pointing toward Mecca.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca, and you let the blood of the animal flow towards Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good.

Jïānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse.

Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: It is restriction.

Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain; we say if it is good, then why is it restricted?

Prabhupāda: That is a good explanation. What do they say?

Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Mohammed did it.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda?

 

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi?

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to, George at least, coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, nor they have got any spiritual assets, born brāhmaṇa family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money (laughs). So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after, so much after money. Vittam eva, hmm? Read that?

Pradyumna:

vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ

janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ

kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi

Prabhupāda: Dharma-nyāya. In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high court judge, he'll give judgement in your... That is proven. One big judge... Not now, at least fifty years ago or more than that. His business was to take bribe, high court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high court judges, they knew it, so in one case he was just arranging for this and the chief justice called him, that "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative, he immediately resigned, and on some plea like, "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that why you are doing this? He said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his... He was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice... And nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here?

 

Prabhupada: They make very nice puffed rice in Melbourne.

Atreya Rsi: How do they make it, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that dekhi, what is called? That rice...

Pradyumna: Thresher?

Prabhupada: Dekhi, husking, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand you put the rice and immediately puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff. Like that.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                  Tehran, August 8, 1976                                                            455052

Ātreya Åṣi: This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon, this is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here?

Prabhupāda: This is local product?

Ātreya Åṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Take some?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it?

Harikeśa: Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and...

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Ātreya Åṣi: This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon.

Prabhupāda: This is also local?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, it is nice.

Ātreya Åṣi: It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. So, very nice. Like bael. In India, like bael. So nice fruits.

 

Dayānanda: There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian.

Prabhupāda: It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Iraya.(?) And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindus. They have got sacred thread. In India.

Parivrājakācārya: They keep a sacred fire.

Prabhupāda: Still there are there?

Parivrājakācārya: A few, a few temples here.

Prabhupāda: They are fire worshipers, Sūrya. (indistinct) Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to someone else) Namaskāra, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Parivrājakācārya: The language is very...

Prabhupāda: You have taken prasādam?

Parivrājakācārya: The whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student:) You understand English? Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits.

Moustafa: Nice to meet you.

Prabhupāda: Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū-svarga, especially Kashmir, Bhū-svarga.

Dayānanda: Heaven on earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes, heaven on the earthly planet.

Parivrājakācārya: We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama, Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane--it's ninety kilometers.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. This is made from a kind of fruit.

Nava-yauvana: Yes, a kind of melon.

Prabhupāda: They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals they are making this proposal. So what do you think?

Dayānanda: I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually this is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun, the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth. Therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and... They are up and down. (to child): Come on, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak?

455105

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden?

Ātreya Åṣi: Some pear trees, some apple.

Prabhupāda: Peach? No.

Ātreya Åṣi: No. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate.

Prabhupāda: Good pomegranate?

455169

Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say, "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say "We believe," no more further than that. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"--bas, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. We shall talk again.

 

Morning Walk                                               August 9, 1976, Tehran                                                            455718

Prabhupāda: And mix with mustard oil and this, what is called, eggplant. Eggplant roasted in the fire and put with little mustard oil, salt and chilis, it becomes very tasteful. So puffed rice and that, they take in Bengal. That is tiffin, for breakfast. Formerly they were happy simply by eating palatable dishes according to...

Ātreya Åṣi: Today they have become so rich they cannot eat.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Simply they can eat meat.

(Morning Walk)

Prabhupāda: Drinking is prohibited.

Ātreya Åṣi: No, absolutely not. The modern Muslims drink.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say drinking is prohibited.

Ātreya Åṣi: Prohibited. Yes. It is not permitted, prohibited.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I say prohibited.

Ātreya Åṣi: Muslim religion, it seems to me, is closer to Vedic culture than Christian. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...given to the modern scientist one proposal, egg proposal. You explain.

Hari-śauri: That if the scientist are so expert then they should be able to back up their claim of life coming from chemicals. Then why can't they produce an egg which will give life? They can take some chemicals and make the white, and take some little coloring to make it yellow inside, and wrap it up in some modern synthetic casing, and then put it in an incubator and let it produce life.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? These rascals, it is proposed that life comes from chemicals. So take a small egg and analyze, find out the chemicals, same chemicals combine together, and bring life. Why? What is the answer? He's for the modern scientists. (laughter) He represents them.

Ātreya Åṣi: And the scientists will sit on the eggs?

Prabhupāda: Scientist may not be. They're putting the incubator, producing so many chickens. So why the egg is taken from the chicken? Why not manufacture and produce hundreds and thousands of chickens, chemical? First of all, begin with chicken then with other.

Parivrājakācārya: They say they are working on this.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, working, it is already being done, so what is your credit? We are working. You may work also, but what is your credit? Suppose if you become successful. What is your credit? It is already being done by the chicken. Why should you take the laureate title, Dr. such-and-such. Give it to the chicken. What they can do? Can they produce a seed of this, just like one seed produce so many things? Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Where is your credit? (break) Mines, as soon as it is national, nobody will take. In 1950, twenty-five years, twenty-six years ago, I was in Madras, Gauòīya Maṭha, and there is a bus stop in front of the temple. So every bus was making some sound, huuuuuung, but when nothing was properly oiled. Machine is going to hell when it is managed by the government. As soon as there is government management, nobody wants. So long there is proprietorship, the proprietor takes care that "My machine will go bad if I don't take care." But who cares for that? That showing that so much oil purchased, who is going to check it? People have become dishonest. On account of godlessness, everyone is dishonest. He's dishonest to himself even. Doesn't take care of the body properly. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Therefore you cannot expect good qualities of the human society without injecting God consciousness. (break) ...in the mass of people amongst themselves. Do they fight very much amongst themselves?

Ātreya Åṣi: Not so much. They are not as peaceful as Indians. They are not as pious as Indians.

Prabhupāda: They cannot be. In India still you'll find hundreds and thousands of men are going to take bath in the Ganges in the morning. They might have only one cloth and one napkin. Still, they will take twice bath with the napkin, they change the cloth and wash it and spread it on the ground. By the time he finishes his bathing, the cloth is dry. That is India's advantage. And he puts some fresh cloth. And the napkin is also dry. And he'll become refreshed. And in his loṭā he'll take some water of the Ganges and he'll go home. In Vṛndāvana you'll find many thousands in the morning, with loṭā they go out, evacuate somewhere, and then wash hands, mouth, with cloth, taking bathing in the Ganges, Yamunā. Now they are polluting the Yamunā water, the government. In Vṛndāvana government is opening oil refinery, and people are being encouraged, "These are new temples." Everywhere people are being degraded. They have no tendency to become purified, God conscious, honest. Because they do not believe in the next birth. This garden belongs to the palace? No.

                                                                                                                                                                        455740

Prabhupāda: It belongs to God. This is accepted. And God... And everyone is God's son. Therefore as the son can enjoy the father's property, they can enjoy. But they cannot claim proprietorship. As directed by the father, one can enjoy the father's property, but he cannot claim that it is his property. This is the correct position. And the king is supposed to be representative of God to see that things are rightly going on, that's all. Nobody's unnecessarily claiming proprietorship. He should remind that "It is God's property. You can utilize it as far as you need; you don't take more. Whatever you need you take, but you cannot take more." Like the birds and beasts they are living. They do not make stock. They need to eat something, they'll eat some fruit, then they go away. When they are hungry they will go another tree. They never claim that "This is my tree, this is my fruit." This is natural. If you put a bag of rice here, the birds will come, they will eat some grains and go away. But a man, he'll go and try to stock something, and he will take more.

Hari-śauri: But they say that that's intelligence, to make preparation for the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to steal God's property is certainly intelligence. Very good intelligence. They must suffer. Must be punished. For this intelligence they must be punished.

Hari-śauri: Their idea is that God may have made everything, but now it's for us to divide up and enjoy between us.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: God may have made everything, but now He has no connection with it now.

Prabhupāda: Why? He has made and He has no connection? What is this rascal theory? He has made everything and He has no connection.

Hari-śauri: No, He gives up the connection.

Prabhupāda: Why He gives up? He has made for His enjoyment. Why should He give up?

Hari-śauri: They say that He's made for our enjoyment and it's for us to divide and enjoy.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are rascal. Everything is done by somebody. Suppose if you organize one business. That is for your enjoyment. God has created anything, that is for His enjoyment. But you are sons of God, you can enjoy the property of the father as far as you require. Not more than, you cannot take more than that. Then other sons will claim and there will be fight. You live. You are son of God, you live at the expense of God. God has sufficient supply. But don't try to take more and stock. That is folly. You eat, you live very nicely. There is no prohibition. But you cannot take more than what you require. This is Bhāgavata communism. If you take more, you'll be punished. (break) ...our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā. The Indians are trained up like that. He is happy in whatever condition of life he is placed. He doesn't protest. Any Indian villager, he'll say "God has given me this position, that's all right." Therefore the modern man is complaining that in India, this God consciousness has made them lethargic. They do not do... They believe on the destiny. Actually they do. Actually they do. Therefore from the very beginning you'll find so nice philosophy, literature, but you won't find the modernized economic development. Big, big house, big, big road, no. There was no such attempt.

Hari-śauri: They're not interested in increasing the unnecessary items.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Why? If there is already sufficient supply of my necessities of life, why shall I waste my time? They knew how to utilize time.

 Parivrājakācārya: They think that God is their servant.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no more God. God cannot be servant of anyone. God is master. As soon as He becomes servant, He's no more God. Then you are God. Then you do not know what is the meaning of God. Therefore you are rascal. You do not know the meaning of God and you are trying to explain God. Therefore you are a rascal. The difficulty is at the present moment, rascals are leading the human society. No sane man, only rascals. Their philosophy, their science, their politics, their sociology, because they are guided by the rascals, everything is bad.

Nava-yauvana: They are the biggest cheaters, so everyone becomes cheater.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Difficulty is there is no education. Mūòha. There is no education, there is no check, therefore people remain duṣkṛtina, sinful, mūòha, rascal, lowest of the men, narādhama, and their so-called education has no value, there is no real knowledge, therefore they are suffering. Why the government keeps police department? To check these sinful activities. But they do not know what is sinful activity. They are allowed to continue sinful activity.

Dayānanda: They judge everything on the basis of what is good for humanity.

Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is good because they are uneducated rascals. What do they know what is good for humanity?

Dayānanda: Whatever gives pleasure to the greatest number of people.

Prabhupāda: Pleasure... So that is child. The child also feels pleasure with something. But it is the duty of the parent to train him to the right point of view. The child takes pleasure playing the whole day. But the father does not allow him. If you leave, let the child seeks his own pleasure, then you are spoiling him. Then there is no need of becoming your father, guardian, let him be spoiled by his whimsical pleasure. There is no need of training, schooling, colleges. There is no need. In my childhood I was not willing to go to the schools. My mother forced, by force she used to... My father was lenient and my mother kept a special man, yamadhara(?), that, "Your duty is to take him by force to the school." Yes. My father, my mother would complain that "Your boy did not go to school." "Oh, he did not go to school?" And I was sure he was very affectionate. "Why?" "No, I shall go tomorrow." Then father, "All right, he will go tomorrow, that's all right." But that tomorrow will never come. This is my practical. My mother forced me. So I thought, "It is pleasure. Why shall I go to school? Let me play whole day." But it is the duty of the guardian to see that this is not pleasure, this is spoiling. A child may think something pleasure, but the guardian should not think that this is pleasure. This is spoiling him. Otherwise why the guardians are required? Why government is needed, why king is needed, why father is needed, why guru is needed? Just to guide. Therefore whatever you think whimsically it is pleasure, the guru, the father, the king, the government, they should guide--"No, it is not pleasure, it is ruining. You should take like this." If the guru and father and the government, they are themselves rascals and fools, how they will guide? And that is the position. General public, they require guidance, but the guides themselves are rascals and fools, cheaters, bluffers. Therefore the condition, social condition... (passerby says something) He said in English?

Ātreya Åṣi: No.

Prabhupāda: We shall go now?

Ātreya Åṣi: Whenever you like.

Hari-śauri: It's half past seven.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. This is nice place.

Nava-yauvana: Because the leaders, they are thieves, they are taking the most, and then they...

Prabhupāda: They have become thieves because their guardians did not care for them. This is going on paramparā. The paramparā is that God's instructions should be distributed. Evaṁ paramparā. But there is no followers of God's instruction. Therefore the fool's, rascal's paramparā is there. The father is a rogue and the son is rogue. The grandson is a rogue. What is wrong? The paramparā is rogue. And if they follow God's paramparā, then everything is all right. In the beginning, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: "I said." That is perfect instruction. God is all perfect, He is speaking. Now you follow that speaking, then you become perfect. And if you follow Satan, then you become a rogue, thief. The difficulty is they are not following the words of God. And religion means the words of God. It doesn't matter what kind of religion it is. If they actually follow the words of God, they become good. Just like in the Ten Commandments, the good instructions are there. So what is the wrong there? You follow, you become a good man. Similarly, in Koran also, there are good instruction. You follow, you become a good man. After all, religion means to try to understand God. So if you sincerely want to understand God and follow His instruction, any religion, it doesn't matter, you become a good man. Comparatively, according to the time, circumstances may be... Just like, who told me? You told me that they cut throat of the lamb. There is a... Suppose that the blood goes to the Mecca side, still there is sense of God. A sense of God. Similarly, if they follow strictly the words of God, so everything is all right.

Dayānanda: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, nowadays when people follow this so-called religion, they...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking of religion, not so-called religion. So-called religion is finished. That is not religion.

Dayānanda: Then it is very difficult to find out what is real religion.

Prabhupāda: Why not? Why the original, any religious scripture you can see.

Dayānanda: Then they will interpret.

Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong. You cannot interpret, you cannot change by resolution. That is not.

Dayānanda: Then they must have someone to tell them. Then they must have an authority.

Prabhupāda: It is already there, just like in the Bible.

Dayānanda: A spiritual master, I mean. They must have the person.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual master, yes, must be there. That is Vedic injunction. Tad vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Spiritual, that I have already explained. Spiritual master, good father, good king, good teachers, they are required. That is defect. There is no guru, there is no spiritual master, there is no nice king, nice father, whole society... (break) (in room) If you find out sand and rocks, you must also (indistinct) there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rocks? Wherefrom the rock came?

Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas.

Prabhupāda: Gas?

Hari-śauri: Gas.

Prabhupāda: So gas, without water, there cannot be gas.

Hari-śauri: Gas and then it liquifies and then it solidifies.

Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes.

Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars.

Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Païca-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam. They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt.

Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is big desert.

Prabhupāda: That means there was water.

Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, to the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water.

Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine, they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover(?) of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our, this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pealike solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Wherefrom the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So wherefrom the solid molecules? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid.

Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid.

Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetables. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation.

Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere then there's no vegetation.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... That is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like... (break)... say in the sun planet there is living entity, there is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ. Bhagavad-gītā. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Where there is gas, air, nainam... Find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam.

Hari-śauri: Gītā?

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately.

Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life.

Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said how is this happening.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with this material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting.

Hari-śauri:

nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi

nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ

na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo

na śoṣayati mārutaḥ

"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."

Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking; it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy?

Pradyumna: Who came last night?

Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy.

Pradyumna: Here in this temple?

Hari-śauri: Yes. Jïānagamya. He used to do some science research as well.

Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it...

Prabhupāda: You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going?

Hari-śauri: Just like they land an airplane.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude, which direction is going on(?) in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is, everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? At most ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them rascal knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. You have tasted the baòā? Nim baòā?

Pradyumna: This morning.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it?

Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy.

Prabhupāda: Healthy?

Parivrājakācārya: Healthy. It tasted like it was good for me.

Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good.

Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop."

Prabhupāda: No, this nim is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of nim daily, you'll never lose your appetite, appetite will be continuing.

Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of nim? (laughing)

Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible.

Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim?

Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened?

Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter.

Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not?

Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms.

Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet.

 

Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vege... They have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that "We have to eat meat."

Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ.

Parivrājakācārya: They say in the books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert, the rain has stopped since then.

Prabhupāda: Because the yajïa stopped.

Pradyumna: The Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing...

Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara.

Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert.

Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year.

Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms.

Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert?

                                                                                                                                                                              455907

Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous.

Pradyumna: You said in the Bhāgavatam just that, that we are afraid of the materialistic men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class.

Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met...

Prabhupāda:

tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās   janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ

Bhakta-sane bās, that is the essential part of progressing. Dayānanda's daughter came today, in my lavatory.

Hari-śauri: When you were in?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going... (break) Generally, this baòā are made with paṭola(?) leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahi.

Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as nim leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same.

Prabhupāda: It is better. (break) ...the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet?

Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they...

Prabhupāda: They do believe?

Parivrajakacarya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon.

Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On sukla-paksa.

Prabhupada: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself.

Hari-sauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that.

Prabhupada: No, it is stated in the Bhagavatam.

Pradyumna: In the Jyotisa it has, it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Purnima, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more..., the blood will run more. Something, they have some, somebody told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went...

Prabhupada: The ebb tide, low tide, according to the moon.

Pradyumna: One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. (long pause)

 

Evening Darsan                                             August 9, 1976, Tehran                                                            455493

Nandarāṇī: Yes. We have Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities here, marble, sixteen inch, I think. They've been here for two years. Nava-yauvana got them in India because he thought that soon they would be able to worship them, but we will never have ten brāhmaṇas here, I mean, it will always be just...

Prabhupāda: Not ten brāhmaṇas, at least four, five.

Nandarāṇī: Right. But even so, we could not maintain a standard of six āratiks and six offerings, so we have not installed any Deities.

Prabhupāda: No, not necessary now. Now he is trying to purchase another house?

Nandarāṇī: He's trying.

Prabhupāda: That house can be completely temple, so that Indians may also come.

Hari-śauri: What if they started to worship Gaura-Nitāi? Gaura-Nitāi? Because the worship is not so strict as Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, and I know you've said before...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gaura-Nitāi can be worshiped twice.

Hari-śauri: Yes, two āratiks a day and kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Gaura-Nitāi is worshiped simply by kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Indians, they want Deity.

Nandarāṇī: They want to see the Deity.

Prabhupāda: Temple means Deity, there must be Deity.

Nandarāṇī: So these Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities, we should simply keep until some future time when we might be able to worship Them?

Prabhupāda: No, if you can, in a separate house, if you can follow the principles, you can install.

Nandarāṇī: I remember in Delhi when they had only a few devotees, they were having three aratiks a day, a very simple program for Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They can do that, simple, three.

Nandarāṇī: Can it be three, can it be simple?

Prabhupāda: Maìgala āratik, bhoga āratika and sundara āratik, that's all.

Nandarāṇī: And changing Their clothes every day?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Every day.

Nandarāṇī: Bathing and changing of Their clothes and three āratiks. Once we have a separate place and we have devotees to maintain Them. We have been eager to worship Deities, so we planted tulasīs, so now we have sixty tulasīs, so we are looking forward to worshiping the Deity and having a good program for bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Here also you can do, but Atreya Åṣi thinks separate building. He thinks like that.

Nandarāṇī: He wants a separate place. Because it is difficult for all of us to do two things. It's very..., it's just very difficult. So having two places would mean we could have one run like a temple and one run like a home. If many devotees come here and wear old clothes and live... Devotees, sometimes they want to dress in old clothes, they want to be very strict, they want to be very austere, but when the businessmen come and they see a devotee with shaved head and old rags on, then they think...

Prabhupāda: Shocked...

Nandarāṇī: Yes. "What is this?" you know. So, but at the same time we don't want to always dress very nicely, we want to be devotees.

Prabhupāda: We must be clean.

Nandarāṇī: Clean, yes.

Prabhupāda: The dress is not important--cleanliness.

Hari-śauri: You can dress in karmī clothes and still be very strict Vaiṣṇava.

Nandarāṇī: Here we wear mostly street clothes, like the Iranians, suits and dresses.

Prabhupāda: Just like he is not well dressed, but anyone who will see, he'll immediately find he's cleansed. That is wanted. Cleansed dress. Dress is not important.

Nandarāṇī: I think Atreya Åṣi wants two places, one like a home and one like a temple. Those devotees who want to...

Prabhupāda: One can become clean with simply loincloth. It doesn't require dress. (break) ...Indian or here?

                                                                                                                                                                        455534

Parivrājakācārya: This is Ali. He has helped me translate one article on vegetarianism. He's very qualified in that area.

Prabhupāda: Our...He'll understand English?

Parivrājakācārya: Very well.

Prabhupāda: Our mission is not to make the nonvegetarian as vegetarian. That will automatically be done. Our mission is to teach people how to love God.

Ali: That's right. I've noticed that. I had that conversation with Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: And to love God we must have definite idea of God, our exchange. Just like materially also, if somebody loves somebody, one must know each other. Otherwise where there is question of love? Love means direct contact. So they speak of love of Godhead. Just like the Christian people, they say "Love of Godhead." But they have no idea who is God. So where is the question of love? It is an impractical proposition, love of Godhead. First of all, you must know who is God. If I love somebody, I must know him, what he is. So this is going on. They speak of love of Godhead, but they do not know who is God or what is God. Therefore they are misguided. Simply it is words. There is no practical value. Do you agree with this point or not? If you have no idea of God, if you have no business with God, then where is the question of love? What is the definition of love, huh? What is the definition of love?

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very important thing. That is important, yes. But love means two persons, there is exchange. Giving something, taking something, feeding something and to eat something, and speaking everything, no secrecy, and to know everything of the other person. When these things are transacted, then there is love. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuìkte bhojayate caiva guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. If I love you and if I have got some secrecy, I don't disclose to you, that is not perfect love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. This is one of the basic principles. I shall invite you to eat with me and I shall accept your invitation to eat with me. I shall give you some presentation, you shall give me some presentation. In this way love develops. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there. Otherwise, where there is question of love? To appreciate God is great, that is not love. That is simply appreciation. But when we actually give everything to God and take everything from Him, you talk with Him of your mind, He talks with you. You give Him to eat and whatever He gives you eat. In this way there is question of love. Simply appreciation of the greatness of God, that is good, in God consciousness, but that is not love. The love stage is different.

Ali: How can one understand God's love?

Prabhupāda: This is the process, I've described. We have got Deity of the Lord, we offer foodstuff prepared very nicely, and whatever leftover is there, we eat. We dress very nicely with flowers, with ornaments; we give Him a nice place to sit down, to sleep. He also looks after our comfort. In this way, exchange of love.                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                        455566

Ali: I already have the faith.

Prabhupāda: That you have to increase. Simply the preliminary faith, that is very good, but unless that faith is increased more and more, then there is no progress.

Parivrājakācārya: There is danger of losing that faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you do not try to make progress and go forward progressively, then there is danger whatever little faith you have got, that will diminish.

                                                                                                                                                                        455571

Prabhupāda: No, I am... Everyone, you can... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practical. They are fully engaged how to make progressive advance in love of Godhead. They have no other business.

Hari-śauri: Nowadays generally, if someone is very religious and he wants to do some practical action, he usually acts on the social platform.

Prabhupāda: No, there, everywhere practical action. Just like all the Muhammadans, they go to the mosque, five times they offer prayer. That is good, very good.

Ali: Even to be attentive, to pay a lot of attention.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is also good, but if one is twenty-four-hours attentive, that is better.

Ali: But we tend to forget things that we don't see.

Hari-śauri: They don't see God, so the tendency is to forget.

Prabhupāda: Why you don't see God? When you see the picture of God, you don't see God? When you see the picture of your father, don't you see your father? You see or not? Suppose you have got picture of your father. When you see the picture, do you see your father or not?

                                                                                                                                                                        455626

Ali: The way I look at it, it's better to talk about God than to talk about...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. One must be serious, that we are talking about God, so what is my God realization? That is nice. Otherwise, if I go on life after life talking about God and there is no God realization... That is going on. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

We are talking of God, but instead of loving God, we are loving this body. So that is not practical. That is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. If one does not become enthused to love God, then simply talking about God is a waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is going on all over the world. Somebody's Hindu, somebody's Christian, somebody's Muhammadan, they are going to the church, they are going to the mosque, they are going to the temple, everything is going on, but when you ask whether you love God or dog, he'll say, "I love dog." Practically we see. Everyone is keeping a dog, very favorite pet. And in church, they'll talk of God, but practically they love the dog. Is it not? This is going on, in the name of religion, that's all. Therefore Bhāgavata says it is simply waste of time. What is the use of talking God? If by talking of God perpetually you are developing your love for dog, then what is the use? Śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time. These are all discussed. Regularly going to the church, regularly going to the mosque or temple, but the love is for material things, not for God. How I get money, how I get motorcar, how I get dog, how I get nice wife, how I get nice--the love is here. The example is given, just like a vulture. The vulture goes very, very high, four miles high, five miles. But his business is to find out where there is a corpse, where there is a corpse. Very highly elevated, but business is to find out a dead body. And as soon as he finds it... (hand motion indicating sweeping down) So this is going on. Very religious, very regularly performing religious ceremonies, rituals, but the business is where is a corpse. "Come on, here is some sense gratification." This is going on. If you are talking of God, then you must love God. That is progress. But there is no love of God, there is love of something else, so what is the use of talking about. Hm? What do you think? Is it not waste of time?

Parivrājakācārya: We can always tell by what people are serving, what they really are loving. If they are serving just their body, then no matter what they are saying, we know...

Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. Officially, God, God, God, but result is dog. Love is there, love is... That is natural. I want to love. Everyone wants to love. But the, unless he loves God, he'll never be happy. So simply talking of love, and if the love is simply transferred to dog, then where is the love of God? So such kind of talking of called śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time and energy. You must practically come to the platform how to love God. So it is a great science, and it is available for everyone to understand and act. It is a great science, one can take advantage. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement, no. It is a science, how to understand God, how to love Him.

 

Room Conversation                                     Tehran, August 10, 1976                                                            456518

Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva-yoniṣu, God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food, you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni, you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā, whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, you produce anna, why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. He never says that "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take.

Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong?

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being, you are animal. If you cannot produce your food, uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being, if you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being. You are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence, you produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man.

Nava-yauvana: They are thinking that they are the proprietor.

Prabhupāda: That is their folly, they are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā, this īśa, īśāvāsyam verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena, you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuïjīthā. Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship, we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that. That everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong. That is not humanity. The animal is therefore benefit. Let him live and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat, but why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there, you'll be punished. The outlaw they will say, "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state, that is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool. He's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side. He is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal. What to speak of humanity.

Dayānanda: Some people say, so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say "I don't care for your..."

Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal, that is the definition. If you have no rationality... Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ... This is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna. Anyone who has no religious principles, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is... Dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must be the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God.

Dayānanda: They say that "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life."

Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy.

Nava-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians in the name of...

Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? How you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if You accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? We have to go down?

Nava-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense.

Prabhupāda: Yes, our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are... Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata. They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal-killing, where it is absolutely necessary... So according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is the mouth(?) should be toward Mecca. Is it like that?

Nava-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way... Suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something, but still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle.

Ātreya Åṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations.

Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization.

 

Morning Walk                                              August 11, 1976, Tehran                                                           456863

Prabhupāda: ...I.A.S. civil service examination before one man is posted in some responsible office. Similarly, to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa, as He says na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu, one has to pass examination, severe test of examination. All the big, big devotees we see. Nārada Muni, before becoming Nārada Muni, he had to pass through severe examination, test. That chance is there in the human form of life, to pass the examination, test. But they are passing this human life with ordinary animal propensities. They are not trained up to pass the examination and be recognized by God. That civilization is lost, Vedic civilization, to prepare the human beings for passing the test, examination for being recognized by God.

tapasā brahmacaryeṇa

śamena ca damena ca

tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ

yamena niyamena vā

These things are required, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa.

Ātreya Åṣi: To pass the examination, one must follow a strict, austere life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa, beginning tapasya, austerity. Brahmacarya, celibacy. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, controlling the senses, controlling the mind. Tyāgena, by renunciation. Satya-śaucābhyām, by following truthfulness and cleanliness. Yamena niyamena vā, by practicing yoga, yama-niyama. These are the different items of being qualified. But all these things can be done by one stroke, kevalayā bhaktyā, by engaging oneself in devotion, vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ.

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

One becomes qualified by one stroke of bhakti to Vāsudeva. Just like the sunrise immediately dissipates the fog. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. In the Kali-yuga, this one item of bhakti can make one perfectly fit candidate to pass the examination. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. What is this nonsense life? There is no tapasya, no spiritual culture, simply like cats and dogs. Last night I was reading. Vāmanadeva created a planet, Sutala, in which Viśvakarmā was ordered to construct big, big houses, palaces, better than in the heavenly planet. And these rascals are going and seeing simply rocks and sand. And what about these palaces and...?

Ātreya Åṣi: Is it true, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Kṛṣṇa is testing us every day? We're having tests, opportunities...

Prabhupāda: No, just like if you want responsible post, then there is question of test. If you want to become a vagabond, remain vagabond. Where is question of test?

Ātreya Åṣi: No, for devotees.

Prabhupāda: Ah, for devotees, there is test. For devotees there is test. We see from the devotee's life, Prahlāda Mahārāja, how much severe test he had to pass through. Bali Mahārāja, Nārada Muni.

Ātreya Åṣi: And the most advanced the devotee is, the more severe the test is, the more chance.

Prabhupāda: No, after you pass the examination, there is no more test. But before coming to the post of recognized devotee, Kṛṣṇa tests very severely. That one has to pass.

Hari-śauri: I read once in the Bhāgavatam in one of your purports, you said that māyā is there to test the sincerity of the candidate.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we see from the life of Bali Mahārāja, how he was put into difficulty. Even his spiritual master cursed him. (break) ...put into test and still he remains in his determination, then he's passed. That is very natural. And there is a word, "acid test"?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: For ascertaining real gold, the acid test one has to pass to become real gold.

Nava-yauvana: (break) ...this test depends on one's faith in Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Faith in Kṛṣṇa? What do you mean by faith?

Hari-śauri: If you want to pass the test, he says, does that depend on one's faith?

Prabhupāda: What does that faith mean?

Ātreya Åṣi: Conviction.

Prabhupāda: What is that conviction? Describe it.

Ātreya Åṣi: That Kṛṣṇa is the controller.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is controller. You may have faith or no faith, that doesn't matter.

Hari-śauri: If one is convinced that Kṛṣṇa will always protect him.

Nava-yauvana: When he's convinced to abide by the instructions of...

Prabhupāda: Faith means that you are meant for giving some service to Kṛṣṇa. You should stick to that service, that path, in spite of all impediments. That is the passing of test. Generally, just like we are meant for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there may be severe test, but still we shall remain determined. That is wanted. There may be so many impediments, punishment, still you should do that. That is wanted. That is test. Not that as soon as there is some difficulty I give it up. There may be severe test, but still we shall not give it up. We must go on. That is determination.

Nava-yauvana: Passing the test means executing the order of the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual life. One has to take order from the spiritual master and execute it, despite all impediments. That is determination. What are these pictures dancing?

                                                                                                                                                                        456978

Prabhupada: Not dangerous if the both of them become devotee.

Atreya Rsi: If they understand the purpose of life.

Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise it is dangerous

Atreya Rsi: They can fool each other.

Prabhupada: That is generally done. Wife increases the responsibility. Stri-vistara. But still one has to maintain wife. A brahmacari has no responsibility. His only responsibility is to serve Krsna. But a grhastha has many responsibilities. "There is the children, I have to give them education, see that they're well situated."

Atreya Rsi: A brahmacari life. A devotee who has not had experience with the responsibility...

Prabhupada: No, no, responsible... He has no, this material responsibility.

Atreya Rsi: But he has responsibility towards Krsna.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Atreya Rsi: So he should know about responsibility, he should have experience.

Prabhupada: Real business of human life is to take responsibility of spiritual advancement. So if one remain brahmacari, he has no disturbance in that responsibility. But if he becomes a grhastha, that disturbance is there. You cannot take wholeheartedly the spiritual responsibility. (end)

 

 

Evening Darsan                                             Teheran, August 11, 1976                                                         456777                                     

Jïānagamya: But the religionists, they say "We don't know."

Prabhupāda: No, we do not say about religion. We are talking of science. It will take three millions of years to understand religion for these rascals. They are now animals. Religion is not so easy thing to be understood by the cats and dogs. Religion is meant for the human being. In the human society there is religion, not in the dog society or the cats and dogs. They do not understand religion means they are cats and dogs, they are not human beings. Human being is that: athāto brahma-jijïāsā, to inquire about the nature of God. That is human being. Otherwise cats and dogs.

Shahrezad: So why we are so involved in the material world that most of the human being don't have...

Prabhupāda: They are being misled by misleaders, that is the difficulty.

Shahrezad: Yes, but why, God, why they don't see, we don't see?

Prabhupāda: They see they are suffering, but they have no eyes to see. They are being slapped both ways and kicked with shoes, but they have no eyes to see. Going on. So much trouble, so many problems, that you cannot drive even on the street. We wanted to see some house; because the street is so congested, we had to wait three days. And still I am thinking that I am making progress. This is rascal.

Shahrezad: Yes, that's right, but...

Prabhupāda: Not yes. First of all understand your rascaldom. You have created such a situation that to go to a place two miles away from my place, I have to wait for three days. And we are taking it as progress. This is rascaldom. But what is inconvenient, we are taking it as progress. To go to a place two miles away, it takes ten minutes or, say, twenty minutes. Now we have to wait two days. And we are taking it as progress. This is called māyā. Māyā means what is not. It is not progress, but we are taking as progress. Degrees we are taking as progress. This is called māyā. Hm? What do you say, Nandarāṇī?

Nandarāṇī: I think her question is, is this God's plan or our plan?

Prabhupāda: It is not God's plan, it is your plan. Whatever you make, it will cause inconvenience. And if you follow God's plan, you'll make progress. Where is in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said by Kṛṣṇa that you make motorcars like this? He has never said.

Hari-śauri: They get a bit confused because God has to... Like that man last night was saying not even a blade of grass can move without God's sanction. So they think because God sanctions...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so many times explained. Just like a child wants to do something. The father says, "Don't do it," I have said several times. Reluctantly, "All right, do it." I have given this example of my practical experience in 1925 or '26 when my son was two years old. There was a table fan, "I would like to touch it." And I said, "No, no, don't touch." This is child. So but it's a child. He again tried to touch it. So there was a friend, he said, "Just slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it, slowed the speed and he touched--tung! Then he would not touch. You see. So this sanction was given, "Touch it," reluctantly. Now when he gets experience and I ask him, "Touch again?" "No." So this sanction. All of us who have come to this material world, it is like that. Reluctantly. Therefore God comes again to inform these rascals that "Now you have tried so much, better give up this, come to Me again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya. Sanction was given, certainly, and he has experience, very bitter, but still he won't... This is obstinacy. Dog's mentality. The father has come personally. Now we have experimented everything--karma, jïāna, yoga, this, that, all nonsense. "Now I say..." It is said most confidential. Sarva-guhyatamam. "Better give up this job. Surrender to Me, come back to Me." So sanction was there, certainly. Without sanction they cannot do it. God created this. That is sanction. You wanted material world to enjoy. "All right, do it, here is material world. Take as much petrol as you like and drive motorcar and create accident, do, go on. But now I am giving you good advice, that give up this business, come back to Me." This is sanction. Reluctant, the same example. I did not like that child to touch the fan, but he would insist. "All right, make an experiment." And when he got the experience, next time, ask him, "Now do it?" "No." This is going on. The sanction, without sanction there is no possibility. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanam--that is mattaḥ, "from Me." But he's insisting, so therefore sanction--"All right, let him experiment." That independence God never touches. So he has got independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. So he is creating problem. Still, Kṛṣṇa coming, that "You have created simply problems. What you have gained? Better give up this all nonsense, come to Me." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are intelligent, they are taking up. And those who are still remaining rascal, they are going on. That is our choice, if we want to be intelligent or rascal. Practically. What we have gained by this so-called material advancement? They have created problem, different problems. That's all. But still, we think that it is progress. And this is going on. Without God's sanction you cannot do anything, that's a fact. But what kind of sanction it is, that you have to understand. God is creator, God is giving sanction, everything is God. Otherwise how He is God? But He has to do. There is a story like that, that the thief is praying to God, "My Lord, give me the chance I can make some stealing in that house." And the householder also praying to God, "My Lord, please save my house, my things may not be stolen." Now God has to adjust, God has to please the thief and the householder. And both of them are prayers. So God has so intelligence, He can do that. He can give the sanction to the thief and He can give protection to the householder. That is God's position. Because both of them prayers, praying, "Give me the facility." And īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. And He is situated in everyone's heart and there are so many petitions, and He has to deal with them. That is God. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: But sometimes things happen people don't want to happen.

Prabhupāda: That is their business. They want or they don't want, that's all. Two business. Because their mind is not fixed up, they have got two businesses--"don't do it," "do it." That's all. There is no third business. Two things--"do it," "don't do it." That's all. Sometimes accepting--"Do it"--and again rejecting, "No, no, don't do it." This is material world. "Do it" and "don't do it." And things are becoming implicated. Saìkalpa-vikalpa. So he has to fix up his mind. "I have done so much 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "don't do it," "do it," "don't do it," "do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction--"do it" and "don't do it." Unless he comes to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says, "Give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." Unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body, suffers.

na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam

asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto

yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam

So long one does not inquire about his spiritual position, he'll have to accept this material body and suffer. This is the law of nature. So therefore our business is how to stop accepting this material body. That is the, our... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is wanted. How to stop accepting this material body. So that is bhakti. Karma, jïāna, yoga, you'll have to accept material body. Maybe better body you may have. But better or bad, worse, whatever body you accept, you have to suffer.

Nandarāṇī: This saìkalpa-vikalpa is there as long as we have our independence, though. Even as devotees, that accepting and rejecting? That is there even in devotees.

Prabhupāda: A devotee, because a nondevotee has become a devotee, he is practicing how to simply accept Kṛṣṇa's orders. But by his previous habit he's still engaged in "do it" and "don't do it." That is his previous habit. Just like this fan is running. You take out the switch, the current is stopped, but it's still running, at least three, four rounds. So similarly, if you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your, that current of "do it" or "do not," is stopped. Because you have agreed to do only what Kṛṣṇa says. If you have actually decided like that, then you are free. There is no more current of "do it" or "not do it." But because you were habituated in your past life to this "do it" or "not do it," sometimes it is found. But that is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

api cet sudurācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ

samyag vyavasito hi saḥ

He has got little practice of these nonsense things. But if he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be stopped very soon. That is the only remedy. So a devotee means he has taken vow before the spiritual master, before the fire, before... If he sticks to his principle, then he's free. Even though some bad habits found due to his past behavior. That will be stopped. But he must stick. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. That must stick. Kṛṣṇa consciousness must continue. Everything will be corrected. And if there is slackness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then again he'll fall down. That I was telling this morning, that if you have determination, māyā will put forward so many impediments, and with all sufferings, if he remains determined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is success. A man is habituated to smoke. He has given up, has promised no more smoking. Just like our students. Now he's put amongst some friends, they are smoking. But he has bad habit, he's thinking, "Why not smoke?" And if the friends offer, "It is friends. Who is going to see, your spiritual master." "Yes." That is possible. But if he comes to his sense again, "Oh, what I have done?" If he repents, "I promised it before my spiritual master, before God, before fire. Now I'm doing this?" that repentance will help him. And if he thinks that "I'm doing it. My spiritual master is not here, let me fall to it," then he is finished. Then he is finished. If he repents for the wrong he has done, then he's excused. Otherwise finished.

Hari-śauri: Is there any limit to the number of chances that he has?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is limit. Once, twice, thrice. If you make four times, then it is extricated: "Get out rascal, cheating."

Ātreya Åṣi: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't there fallen sinful people who are still...

Prabhupāda: Amongst fallen, sinful people, if you want to remain fallen, sinful, then who can help you? It is up to you. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. And if you want to remain fallen, "No, I'll do it, go on," you remain. What is objection of Kṛṣṇa? Go on. You are suffering, go on suffering. I give you this suggestion, you do it. If you do it, you become free. But if you want to continue, continue, it is your business. Go on suffering. Why you make Kṛṣṇa responsible? You are responsible for your own activities.

Nava-yauvana: You say if someone has no shame...

Prabhupāda: Yes, shameless. Dukankata,(?) in Bengal it is called. So if you want to continue, then continue. The facility is already given there. The material world is there. You go on, continue. But if you want to stop it, if you are conscious of the material position, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, then you have to stop it. Kṛṣṇa has given you freedom, yathecchasi tathā kuru. Whatever you like, you can do. If you like to suffer, go on suffering. Who can...? It is your business.

Nava-yauvana: But unless one is getting Kṛṣṇa's instruction, he is forced to go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā is there. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. You cannot do anything without knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is there, māyā is there. They'll take care. Kṛṣṇa's agent māyā will take care of you. You have to be taken care, either by māyā or by Kṛṣṇa. If you agree to be taken care by Kṛṣṇa, then you are happy. And if you don't agree, you will be taken care by māyā. You go on suffering. In either case you are not independent. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. That verse is very important--yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out that verse. It is the last part. Yesterday you found.

Hari-śauri: Oh, I know which one it is. The one about "Now do as you wish."

Prabhupāda: That liberty is always there.

Hari-śauri:

iti te jïānam ākhyātaṁ

guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā

vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa

yathecchasi tathā kuru

"This I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: So it is your business. "Deliberate on all the points I have told you. Now if you like, you surrender unto Me. If you don't like, you do whatever you like." Yathecchasi tathā kuru. This is God. He doesn't touch on your liberty, little liberty given to you, He doesn't touch. He gives you the right information, right instruction. Now you... Idaṁ te jïānam? Iti te jïānam.

Hari-śauri: Iti te jïānam ākhyātam.

Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam.

Hari-śauri: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Hari-śauri: Vimṛśyaitad.

Prabhupāda: Vimṛśya, "Now you think over it." Not that blindly accept. You consider, make your deliberation, and then you do whatever you like. This freedom is given. What is the wrong there?  Iti te jnanam akhyatam "I've explained to you all kinds of different types of knowledge, and ultimately, guhyatamam, the most confidential knowledge I've spoken to you, that you surrender to Me. Now you deliberate on this point very nicely, and then vimṛśya, then after full consideration, do whatever you like." It's everything up to you. There is no force. "If you want to remain in this material world, remain here, suffer life after life. Otherwise you come to Me." That is your choice. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama.

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

Everything is there. He says very emphatically, vimṛśya, "Just judge, deliberatedly, consider it by full consideration. Then decide. You are quite at liberty to do whatever you like. I have spoken everything." This is your position, this is God's position. There is no force. God can force, but there is no force.

Nava-yauvana: That deliberation means to study your books.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got deliberating power. If you go to purchase one two-cents'-worth lozenges, still you see three qualities are there. It is worth only two cents, but still he sees which one is better, which one is better. That power is there.

Hari-śauri: You say here in the purport, "Before surrendering one is free to deliberate on this subject as far as the intelligence goes."

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got your intelligence. God has given you intelligence. Now you deliberate. But if you... A devotee, without using my intelligence, I surrender. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā. Immediately you become the greatest mahātmā. If you simply believe in Kṛṣṇa, "What my nonsense intelligence...? What Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do. Bas." Your life is perfect. And if you think still that "I am more intelligent (than) Kṛṣṇa, let me deliberate and consider," then you remain rascal. You cannot be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. He says sarva-dharmān parityajya, you take it. That is real intelligence. That is real intelligence. Just like obedient son, my father says to do it. "All right, I shall take it, although it does not appeal to me." That is good son. Natural guardian, father, if son understands "My father or mother, whatever they will say, it is surely for my good. They cannot be cheater." So intelligent son will take "Yes, my father says, I'll do it. That's all. Never mind it does not appeal to me." That is intelligence, real intelligence. "Because I am immature, my father knows my good, he says 'My dear son, do it. It will be nice.' I'll do it." That's all. Without any objection. That is intelligence. That is real intelligence. But the father gives the freedom, "Now you deliberate." But it is my duty, when father says, what is deliberation? I'll accept. That is intelligence. And if you do not do it, then you come to that karma, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. God offers, but the rascal, duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, will not do it. They'll suffer. Go on, continue to suffer. He'll not do it, all right, go on, suffer. Next life if he becomes dog, the ear is there, but he'll not be able to hear what Kṛṣṇa says: finished. That chance is finished. This is going on. The dog has ear, big ear, bigger than me. But he cannot hear what is Kṛṣṇa saying. That is not possible. But this life I've got this ear, I can hear. If I don't take chance, then how much foolish I am. Next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I'll get next life, next birth. Now it is not necessarily that I'll get the next life also same ear. No. The ear may be different. The eyes may be different. The eyes are there, ears are there, nose is, but it is different. So long we have got these eyes, these ears, this nose, utilize it properly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja...(?) Every birth you'll get a father, mother. Because without father, mother, there is no question of birth. But not in every birth you'll get Kṛṣṇa and guru. That is in this birth. Birth you can have. But to have Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is this birth. So utilize it properly. Janame janame saba pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja... Very nice. That chance you'll not get. You'll get body, you'll get eyes, you'll get ear, you'll get father, you'll get mother, you'll get food, you'll get sex, you'll get defense, everything you'll get. Tathā dehāntara. But not this chance, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja. You'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. This is the difference. How nice verse it is. Everything you'll get, but you'll not get this. How nice it is. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, another body you'll get. Another body you'll get means you will get all bodily facilities. There is no scarcity between this body and that body. But only scarcity is that in other body you'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. We have to remember this.

Jïānagamya: It is stated in the Bhāgavatam that once in every structure of the universe, every living entity gets the opportunity to have guru and Kṛṣṇa and very, very nice situation. He gets that opportunity.

Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that this is the only chance of Kṛṣṇa, guru, and if he neglects this chance, then tanwan sthito hi ga(?). What is the loss more than that? We are simply calculating loss and gain. Just imagine what is the loss by misusing this human form of body. If you want to spoil this life under the influence of misleaders, you can do it. But if you prefer to take the sense of following leadership of Kṛṣṇa, then our life... Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That comes mām ekam, ekam-- then your life is successful. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: "I'll give you protection in all respects." So if we don't take this opportunity, then we are cutting our own throat. Do it, you can do it. Who can save you?

 

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa also is allowing you, yathecchasi tathā kuru. Deliberate, Kṛṣṇa is giving you. But who is accepting? That you have got your own intelligence.

Dayānanda: But I mean rebelliousness. Everyone should...

Prabhupāda: So whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa says that you have got intelligence. "You consider, I have spoken to you. Now you use your intelligence and do whatever you like." Kṛṣṇa does not deny your intelligence. There is no meaning. You have got your intelligence. That is your... Training, you take Kṛṣṇa's training. If you don't take, then you remain in your own training. Kṛṣṇa is training you, He says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām, but if you don't take His training, then you remain in your own training. Who objects? Remain a rascal. Who objects? Continue to become a rascal. What can be done? That yathecchasi tathā kuru is already said. You use your intelligence. If you prefer to remain rascal, you remain. Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Don't use your intelligence." What does He say? But if you are actually intelligent, then you'll think that, "Who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa? Let me take His advice." That is real intelligence. Why shall I use my tiny intelligence? That is real intelligence.

Nandarāṇī: Kṛṣṇa was speaking to Arjuna, and Arjuna had real intelligence, but nowadays if someone tries to consider Kṛṣṇa's instructions and deliberate fully and make some decision, he always makes the wrong decision.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you. What is that?

Ātreya Åṣi: This is watermelon, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are giving all of them?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, it's from our garden(?).

Prabhupāda: Give me one piece. For any intelligent man, Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge. There is no doubt about it. But unfortunately most men are rascals. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. How can I deny? God is speaking personally.

 

Morning Walk                                              Teheran, August 12, 1976                                                         457324

Prabhupāda: Our plan should be to accept Kṛṣṇa's plan, that's all. Approved, authorized plan. That is very easy. Take any words of Kṛṣṇa, it is very easy. What is your problem, first of all? Just consider, whether Kṛṣṇa answers it. First of all, propose what is your problem.

Hari-śauri: Well, my problem is that I have to have somewhere to live and I have to get something to eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that Kṛṣṇa's solves. Yes, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni: produce food grains. You have to work because it is material world. You cannot sit idly. Even if you are a very strong tiger, you don't expect that animals will come and enter your mouth. You have to work for it. This is the world. Na hi suptasya siṁhasya praviśanti mukhe mṛgāḥ. Suppose a lion... He's the king of the forest. And if he says, "It is my order, I'll sleep here and all the animals may come in my mouth." The animals will urine on his face. "Yes, we shall pass urine on your face. We are not going to accept your order." You have to work. Practical, everyone has to work. This is the third nature. Avidyā karma-saìga. Because here everyone is under ignorance, the punishment is he has to work for his living condition. Work is not very pleasing. It is very troublesome. But he has to. Avidyā karma-saìga. You have to work. Therefore we see practically that countries who are working very diligently, they are materially prosperous. Europe, America, they work very diligently, hard, and they have got material prosperity. And the Eastern countries, they are not working, intelligent. From material point of view. From spiritual point of view that is another thing.

Hari-śauri: So all I have to do is just make some working arrangement.

Prabhupāda: No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Kṛṣṇa is giving you instruction. Just like food, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni. You produce anna. Kṛṣṇa never said that you produce tire tubes. Never says.

Hari-śauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there.

Hari-śauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now.

Prabhupāda: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic.

Harikeśa: Yes, but now there's TV.

Prabhupāda: TV, yes.

Harikeśa: How can you enjoy without TV?

Prabhupāda: Yes, how can you waste your time?

Nava-yauvana: Their reason, they say, is because we have to work so hard all day, then we have to try to forget, watch the television.

Prabhupāda: Why should you work? If you have to forget, why should you take such nonsense things that you have to forget again? Why not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Even the child does not forget. He's chanting. Take such things that you'll enjoy. The more you do not forget, you more enjoy. Why should you take up something that you have to forget? This is rascal.

Nava-yauvana: Karmīs cannot understand.

Prabhupāda: There is a story like this. A man is sitting. His friend came, "Why you are sitting idly?" "What shall I do?" "Work." "Why shall I work?" "You'll get money." "What shall I do with the money?" "Then you'll be able to sit peacefully and eat." "I'm doing that. I'm already doing that." I'm peacefully sitting and eating. Why shall I go and work? If that is the ultimate end, that I shall peacefully sit down and eat, I am doing that. Why shall I go and work?

Harikeśa: What about when it gets cold?

Prabhupāda: That you again "if." You are bringing some condition. For the present time, sitting very peacefully and haven't got to work. Why you are insisting me to work? If this is the goal, to sit peacefully and eat, I'm doing that.

Hari-śauri: But I want more than that; it's boring. I want more.

Prabhupāda: Boring?

Hari-śauri: It's very boring just to sit and eat all the time.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that boring for the rascal. Otherwise, one who is intelligent, he's enjoying.

Harikeśa: Yes, but I mean definitely it will get cold. There's no question that "maybe if." It definitely it will get cold.

Prabhupāda: Cold you will get both ways, whether you work or not.

Harikeśa: No, no, because when I work I have a nice house and I got a heater, then it's warm. If I didn't work I wouldn't have my heater, and it gets to be zero...

Prabhupāda: And when there will be no electricity, you will be frozen.

Harikeśa: Well, I have my gas heater.

Nava-yauvana: We have experience sometimes the heater breaks and there's even more anxiety.

Hari-śauri: Then there's always a coal fire as well.

Prabhupāda: Such kind of argument can be counteracted by so many other argument.

Harikeśa: We just see practically that we're enjoying life. We can't...

Prabhupāda: Enjoy life means... Even the industrialists, they go to the remote village and have a peaceful house there. That is the anxiety, how I shall live peacefully. The poorer class, the workers, they live in the city, and the capitalist, he goes to a different place.

Jïānagamya: Vṛndāvana, they came to Vṛndāvana, those Indian industrialists. They were so nervous, always like this, "Who is here? Who is also here? Should I talk to him about business." Very nervous.

Hari-śauri: But variety is the spice of life.

Prabhupāda: Variety, there are qualities of varieties. Just like we enjoy varieties prasādam, and there is variety in the brothel also. Two qualities of variety. Variety is good, that's all right.

Hari-śauri: Well, sometimes we want to sit in a garden like this and sometimes we like to be inside, and other times we like to go out to the movies.

Prabhupāda: I don't go out. We do not go to the movies or to the restaurant. It is different taste. Therefore it is calculated three kinds of men--sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika--their tendencies are different.

Nava-yauvana: Karmīs can't understand why a devotee doesn't want to go to the cinema.

Prabhupāda: So many things--they do not smoke, they do not drink, they do not go to cinema.

Hari-śauri: We're as good as dead. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: What happens with all these people who, like for example, myself, I can't live on a farm?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: I can't live on a farm.

Prabhupāda: That does not make you, what is called, unfit. You can do something like that.

Harikeśa: I mean I was born in a city, raised in a city, and feel very good when I'm in a city, but when I'm on a farm, I'm very disturbed.

Prabhupāda: Rājasika, you have got rājasika. So that means your mode of nature is rājasika. There are three kinds of--sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika.

Harikeśa: But what are we going to do with all these kind of people?

Prabhupāda: That is already there, three kinds of propensities. Sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika. So you belong to the rājasika, that's all. So it can be conquered by sāttvika.

Hari-śauri: So we should all aim towards leaving the cities. If everyone becomes sāttvika...

Prabhupāda: That tendency is there, why these bungalows are here? They do not like to live in the city. They are paying so high rent. Why? The inner tendency is to live like this, with trees, with lawn. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, thank you. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                     Teheran, August 12, 1976                                                          457430                                 

Ātreya Åṣi: What other products do you recommend?

Prabhupāda: That you want me I shall give you.

Hari-śauri: The one on leg that you put that nim oil. That cleared up that cut in two days.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that nim ointment?

Harikeśa: He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he had a big cut on his leg, and when Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days.

Prabhupāda: Any cut, any ulcer, it is very...

Ātreya Åṣi: Even for ulcer?

Prabhupāda: No, any...

Ātreya Åṣi: Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Fifty percent.

Hari-śauri: It's gone a little moldy on the top again. Underneath it's all right, though.

Prabhupāda: No, we shall do it nicely.

Harikeśa: This looks different.

Ātreya Åṣi: What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt?

Prabhupāda: No, it is simply nim leaf.

Hari-śauri: Nim leaf boiled in ghee.

Harikeśa: This is not the same.

Prabhupāda: It was not properly done. I asked Pālikā.

Harikeśa: It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours.

Prabhupāda: The water portion should be abolished. Then it will go not bad.

Ātreya Åṣi: If the water portion is?

Hari-śauri: Abolished.

Harikeśa: The secret is cooking it for a long time.

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad.

Prabhupāda: If the water portion remains, it will decompose.

Ātreya Åṣi: Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available, I think you are not manufacturing vaseline?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, Iran.

Prabhupāda: Because vaseline is one of the by-products of petrol.

Harikeśa: They have olive oil here.

Prabhupāda: No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply nim leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all nim leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects nim, collects and dry, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of...

Ātreya Åṣi: The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him.

Prabhupāda: Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take.

                                                                                                                                                                        457492

Hari-śauri: Yellow mustard seeds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix nim powder. Mustard seed, nim powder.

Harikeśa: Calcium carbonate.

Prabhupāda: And salt. Calcium carbonate means...? Oh, calcium, instead of calcium carbonate, let it be nim. It will be very effective.

                                                                                                                                                                        457505

Prabhupāda: No, it is it (indistinct), we shouldn't do it. Only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out.

Harikeśa: Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate.

 

Evening Darsan                                           August 12, 1976, Tehran                                                            456987

Nava-yauvana: "First we must reach to your standard, then we can become interested in spiritual life." It's an envious position. On the material platform they are thinking, "You have gotten so much, now you can afford to practice this. We cannot afford such practice."

Prabhupāda: Then it is a luxury, it is not necessary. Is it not?

Nava-yauvana: Yes, that's what they are thinking. After the material luxury, then you have this.

Prabhupāda: But why the Indians, they are not like the Americans? You find in India still millions of people will go to the Kumbhamelā with torn cloth. They are not like Americans, riches. Why they take? Indian is well-known poverty-stricken. So why almost ninety-nine percent people, they are after Kṛṣṇa consciousness naturally? Still they'll go, when there is Kumbhamelā, so many saintly persons are coming. They will come by lakhs. Have you seen it? You have seen Kumbhamelā? You have seen? That is the proof. Not only Kumbhamelā. In Vṛndāvana, just like in our temple, recently it was jam-packed. Why they are coming to Vṛndāvana? Mostly they are coming from villages. Especially during this time at least twenty thousand, fifty thousand men are coming, daily. Still. We held Hare Kṛṣṇa festivals in Calcutta, Bombay, Madras. As soon as it is advertised, you'll find fifteen thousand, twenty thousand men come. And if you hold for weeks, for weeks they will come. You have seen? They are not like Americans, rich. They are all poverty-stricken. To the general eyes they are poverty-stricken. Kumbhamelā you'll see, Hardwar, in Vṛndāvana. Or even in big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, such festivals are held, people will come by thousands. It is training, culture. And this boy is taking three times bath, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is training and culture. And if he is kept in this culture, in future he'll be great saintly person. Then he'll do everything automatically. He will deliver others. It is training.

                                                                                                                                                                        457101

Mr. Sahani: I'm sure next year there'll be a film on Iran. When are you going to make the public announcement for this temple?

Ātreya Åṣi: It is announced. Śrīla Prabhupāda's visit was sufficient.

Prabhupāda: It is announced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. As many towns and villages are there on the surface of the globe, this movement will go on. Sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma. This will go on. It is already predicted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

                                                                                                                                                                        457148

Prabhupāda: No, here. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa practically showing how to live Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana nobody knows Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nobody knows. But their love for Śrī Kṛṣṇa is intense. That is wanted. Premā pumartho mahān. That is required. You simply become an intense lover of Kṛṣṇa, bas. Your life is successful. It doesn't require any education or... That is the Vṛndāvana residents' life. They did not know what Kṛṣṇa is. But it is, very loving center, all the residents of Vṛndāvana. When Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities are discussed, Nanda Mahārāja's friend would suggest, "Nanda Mahārāja, your son is wonderful. He must be some demigod. He has come to live with us." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. (long pause) How far it is, Afghanistan from here?

                                                                                                                                                                        457164

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, we need a piece of land.

Prabhupāda: Why piece? Take big land. Make something gorgeous. Kṛṣṇa is not poor. Although He likes to live in the village, but He is Dvārakādhīśa also.

 

 

It is not that animal slaughter stopping, no. Kṛṣṇa could have said paśu-rakṣya.

 

 

So the cows are so happy that... Just like in India. They are walking here and there.

                                                                                                                                    

Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya…Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power.

 

So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation--nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Black money, white money, this money, that..., never mind, bring money.

Indian Doctor: (laughter) By any way.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bas. This is modern civilization.

 

Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything.

 

These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

Para-upakāra. Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission.

 

Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para-upakāra. That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra. India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage: "Oh, they are very liberal, enter there." And still we are liberal. "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway, I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. Come here, stay. Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others.

 

But if there is no vairāgya, where is bhakti?

 

But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa-līlā…Liberated for going to hell…No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand…Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all…Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in... That is Rādhā-kuṇòa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇòa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī.

That is the proper... guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted… So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection.

 

Four hundred acres land, we are producing our vegetables, vegetables, fruits, and food grains, milk, and two hundred devotees, they are living very happily…It is, for health it is very nice.

 

Interviewer (5): You have some project here. Can you kindly explain what is that?

Prabhupāda: Our project is Bhagavad-gītā, learn Bhagavad-gītā and apply it practically in your life.

 

Our project is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Come here, live peacefully, keep your body fit, and work for yourself, you produce your own food, you produce your own cloth, don't be very much anxious for artificial necessities, and save time, and be advanced in spiritual life.

 

Not only work. Attending the program. That is essential.

Jayapatākā: They all attend maìgala-ārati, evening ārati. They should also attend morning class.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential.

 

Let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money; they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince them. It is not the question of India, America, here... It is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world.

 

They'll be happy. Everyone they'll be happy. Will be happy. It is such a nice... India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we... You came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be... So those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately.

 

This combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same--andha-paìgu-nyāya. Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful…Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required.

 

He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money... Instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be... Then I'll be responsible.

 

My policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government (for men?), there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food.

 

So in this way invest our books or land. We don't want to keep cash.

If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible.

 

So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more?

 

So that I want, that I live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil, bare necessities. Anartha... Just like this material thing we require for preaching. That is not anartha. But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha.

 

They admitted, "Rival to Nelson Column" in Guardian even. So who is strong enough? We are stronger than British Empire. Simply by Ratha-yātrā we are conquering. And actually that is being done. What I have got strength? Forty rupees beginning. Simply Hare Kṛṣṇa and Ratha-yātrā, that's all. That's a fact. They can see, they have got eyes.

When the Englishmen were ruling over this country and Gandhi had to do so much labor, his life sacrificed, some way or other they were gone. Now the same Englishman is working here as book distributor. (laughs) Who was our ruler. So whose achievement is better? Gandhi's or mine?

 

What is this Kṛṣṇa crossword? This is gambling…From the very beginning, because I introduced this, no catur-vidhā, four kinds of pāpa. Therefore our Society is now so respected.

 

I think if this is adopted by the United Nation, immediately the face of the world will change. The Chinese and the Indians, they are very expert. If they are given place, they can immediately turn that place into a nice food-producing village. They can do that. And you can produce anything usable from anywhere according to the climate. Especially in America, the facility is very, very great. So many jungles. If the jungles are cut, the woods can be used for making house and the field can be used for producing food and milk, cows, everything.

 

The varṇāśrama-dharma, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajïa. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization. Varṇāśrama. How to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajïa.

 

Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama.

 

... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya.

First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajïa. Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission. That is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission.

 

So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented.

 

Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Rāma will remain alone.

 

Our farming projects, very successful…So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately…There is a logic, andha-paìgu-nyāya. One man is blind. Another man is lame. Both are useless. When they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction, "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money--lame. And they have got money but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together…But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa.

 

So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient quantity of anna. Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajïād bhavati parjanyo yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Yajïārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. This formula should be... That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission, what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission… Kṛṣṇa to carry personally…

 

Government should be for the welfare of the people. Then that government will continue.

 

You grow, on the thatched roof they grow squash…So that the family can get one squash, that is sufficient for family. Vegetable. People used to live formerly without any worries. Everything was so easily available, at least foodstuffs. They had no anxiety…They got their own paddy from the field, milk, some vegetables...Whole family without any... "Where I shall get money?" "How shall I eat?" These things were absent. Even the poor man.

 

Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully.

 

No soap. Take this Rādhā-kuṇòa's... Why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇòa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇòa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? …Nim datun? I was doing nim datun(?) until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim. But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush and I made my toothpaste at home. . So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple.  

 

Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we... sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saìge. That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu, those who are devotees… Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him… Narottama dāsa Öhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā-kuṇòa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema?…Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step.

 

Money is not the strength for understanding Rādhārāṇī. If you have got some money, by the strength of money you'll understand Rādhārāṇī. That is another bogus thing.

 

…Through viddhi-bhakti you have to come to the stage of rāga-bhakti. Without viddhi-bhakti, you'll not...

 

Aksayananda: And then when he becomes advanced....

Prabhupāda: Automatically he will be anxious to preach. Automatically.

Akṣayānanda: Ultimately.

Prabhupāda: Not ultimately. Automatically()…No, no, not immediately. Immediately how you can speak. Unless he knows, what he'll speak? It is better not to speak than speaking all nonsense. He must learn first of all what is the philosophy, what is the science. Then he can speak.

 

For washing cloth you require soap. But does not... You require everything, but because you are spending without any sense...

 

... But coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous.

 

Niṣkiïcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiïcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose? At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably." Then it is very dangerous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY SIX

Morning Walk                                               August 14, 1976, Bombay                                                         458075

(break) ...famous actress and singer called Shri Lakshna-pandit. She's one of our devotee's sister-in-law also. She has some devotion. So she is coming to sing bhajanas tomorrow in the pandal. Is that okay? She's very famous.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's okay.

Prabhupāda: Before Deity one can do. Before Deity one can show devotional activities, but not otherwise. Otherwise it will be sense enjoyment.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana once you told me not to have the rāsa-līlā by these professionals also.

Prabhupāda: No, before Deity everything.

                                                                                                                                                                              458132

Prabhupāda: ...saptāha, it is not authorized.

Acyutānanda: No. But in some editions of Bhāgavatam they have a Bhāgavata-māhātmyam, and there's a story about bhakti and jïāna and vairāgya and Nārada Muni.

Prabhupāda: That no ācārya has mentioned.

Harikeśa: That's Gītā Press again. That's Gītā Press.

Acyutānanda: They say how this is the instructions for how Bhāgavata should be read in seven days up to this canto.

Prabhupāda: Gītā Press was Māyāvādī. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        458193

Dr. Patel: Antavanta ime dehāḥ, that is right, but the anta may not be got too quickly.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not.

Indian: What is this (Hindi)?

Dr. Patel: Sagrada(?) is meant for only cough. (Hindi) Is Āyur-Vedic, very good medicine.

Indian: Where can we get some?

Dr. Patel: You can grow them here in this garden.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very easy.

Indian: Where can I buy it?

Dr. Patel: You can buy it from the market, serabasagra.(?) Syrup, it is in the form of paste. Leaves are also paste make a decoction out of it. Asaka(?) is recognized by the Western medicine also. Americans are importing it.

Prabhupāda: It was introduced by Dr. Bose.

Dr. Patel: Bose, yes.

Prabhupāda: He introduced so many Indian drugs in the...

Dr. Patel: They have in Bengal this Standard Pharmaceuticals of Bengal, been able to isolate penicillin from cow dung, and they have a big plant in Calcutta producing penicillin from cow dung. It's stated, you know, how cow dung was considered sacred. Perhaps we did not know that, but by experience.

Prabhupāda: Before this, one Monmohan Gosh, Dr. Monmohan Gosh, he was pathologist in medical college. He proved the antiseptic properties of gobara. He was Dr. Gosh's friend. So he was working in his laboratory also. I know. Long ago.

Dr. Patel: And in gomūtra, sir, there are so many hormones coming, and a big sample of hormones which can be resynthesized as human hormones. That is why gomūtra is being drunk.

Prabhupāda: Gomūtra is good medicine for liver disease. If you drink urine of...

Dr. Patel: Yes, it is proved scientifically so many hormones and by-products and hormones which can be resynthesized into human hormones, modern science.

Indian: (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: That's right, gomūtra is considered sacred by we people that we put a drop in the newly born child's mouth.

Prabhupāda: Païca-gavya, gomūtra is one of the parts. Païca-gavya.

Dr. Patel: Milk and honey. Five ingredients, gomūtra is one of the five things. Honey, milk...

Prabhupāda: No, that is païca-amṛta. Païca-gavya a little different. Gobara, urine, milk, yogurt, and ghee. This is païca-gavya, pertaining to the cow. And that honey, that is païca-amṛta.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I have a question. Can I ask you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Now then, Arjuna was so advised that he should fight out. So in that case, I mean we all consider he was right to follow Kṛṣṇa advice? Then if a man is overtaken by disease and if he fights out that...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say that, that he should not fight. It is my personal... Not that one should not take care of the body or one should not eat medicine, that is not. I like this, let me do without medicine. That is my personal... It is...

Dr. Patel: What is medicine? Any herb is a medicine, even food is a medicine.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I don't decry medicine. That is not my business.

Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't say decry. But you don't want to take advantage of medicine.

Prabhupāda: Medicine. Just like a type of vairāgya, sometimes they do not eat. That does not mean eating is forbidden. It is not. It is my personal, I am trying to avoid, that's all. There was a big friend of W. C. Bannerji. You have heard the name W. C. Bannerji? He was one of the three inaugurators of Congress in the beginning. No, that Bannerji, Surendranatha Bannerji, he came later. Almost contemporary. But the Congress was started by I think, yes, W. C. Bannerji. W. C. Bannerji was a big barrister. So he had his friends, contemporary. So he was also brāhmaṇa. So when... He was taking daily his bath in the Ganges, and if he was diseased, was drinking Ganges water. So he became seriously sick. So this W. C. Bannerji, he was a big man. So he asked his permission to bring some doctor. "You'll die in this way."(?) So he persisted, "No, I shall simply drink this Ganges water." So it is not that medical science is in defeated position.

Dr. Patel: He just died.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Brahmacaryeṇa. Tapasya, one of the items is anāhāra. Anāhāra. As far as possible not to eat. That is one of the items of tapasya.

Vāsughoṣa: You know this ācārya, Vinoba Bhave, he's going on a fast until death starting in September to end cow slaughter in India.

Prabhupāda: Whole Europe, there is no cloud, no rain.

Dr. Patel: There's lot of rain here.

Prabhupāda: Fortunate vṛṣṭi. Still India fortunate. I'm coming from London, Paris, and Tehran. All fields yellow. And Europe, so much scorching heat and sunshine, I never seen. Especially in London. This time I saw everything has become yellow. Greenness gone.

Dr. Patel: The non-monsoon countries can produce more food than the monsoon countries. The monsoon comes only three months in a year. Those people get rain all year 'round, they can grow better crops. This is how so many parts of North America and Europe, they can have sufficient crops all the year. We can't have it here.

Prabhupāda: No, there is scarcity of water also. They are killing the animal premature. They cannot do it. It has come to this point.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) in favor of vegetarians. We are fools raising fodder and this thing and again raising animals on that and feeding on that. Why can't we directly feed on poor animals? I think the human race will survive more that way than by eating animals, but economically it is more sound.

Prabhupāda: Certainly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said māṁsād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said. This is artificial. In the lower stage of human civilization when they cannot produce food they do not know how to do it, so the animals are killed. What can they do? But actual food is anna, food grains. Even for the animals. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Yajïād bhavati bhū... So there is no yajïa. There is no yajïa. So this saìkīrtana-yajïa is the only yajïa in Kali-yuga. So if they perform, everything is all right. There will be cloud, there will be rain.

Dr. Patel: Yajïa karma samudbhava.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, the other yajïas are not possible. First of all, there is no yājïika-brāhmaṇa and paraphernalia, so many things. Perhaps if we perform yajïa and pour ghee on it, immediately government arrest. Ghee can be produced immense. I have studied. Immensely, you can produce, by keeping cows. Kṛṣṇa has recommended, go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. The go-rakṣya is essential. It is not that animal slaughter stopping, no. Kṛṣṇa could have said paśu-rakṣya. No, Kṛṣṇa has not said. Go-rakṣya. Those who are animal eaters, they can indulge in eating other insignificant animals.

Dr. Patel: I think go-rakṣya must be the backbone of the economy.

Prabhupāda: No, health, brain, everything. Milk is miracle food. And we are practically experiencing in our farms that if the cows are protected nicely, they can supply immense milk. We are getting in our farms, extra milk. Everyone is eating so many preparations, sandeśa, rasagullā, rābaòī. They are surprised. In their history they have not eaten all these things.

Dr. Patel: They are eating the milk-producing animal so milk will not...

Prabhupāda: No, they advertise milk is bad.

Dr. Patel: Who?

Prabhupāda: These Europeans, Americans.

Dr. Patel: Really?

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Don't eat milk." Do they not? And they cannot drink also. In Bengal there is a proverb, kule pete ghiya(?) (indistinct). If you supply preparation made of ghee to the dog, he cannot digest it.

Guest: (quotes proverb in Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Ha! They cannot digest factually. They get, what is called? That disease?

Harikeśa: Jaundice.

Prabhupāda: Jaundice. They cannot eat much milk product.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. Cow is the biggest factory to produce protein, first-class proteins for human beings. Instead of taking advantage of the products of the factory, they eat out the factory itself.

Prabhupāda: So we see practically in our farm the cows give more milk than other farms.

Dr. Patel: The satisfaction of the animal.

Prabhupāda: They are very satisfied. You have been in New Vrindaban with me? No, you were not. So the cows are so happy that... Just like in India. They are walking here and there.

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Dr. Patel: I think the degeneration of this country are from the foreign people, foreign domination.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, it was their propaganda, Macauley's, that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them." So British policy was to make propaganda so that "everything Indian is bad."

Dr. Patel: I think Max Mueller (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: No, it was necessary for them to Anglicize the Indians to rule over them.

Dr. Patel: Our differential, or (Hindi) has created all this rot.

Prabhupāda: It is not our, it is human society's.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) We allowed everyone to be here unawares. If public corporation, trading company, becomes the ruler of this country, I don't understand how it could be.

Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya.

Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise--indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power. So they can...

Dr. Patel: In Kali-yuga, sir, the śūdras will rule according to the...

Prabhupāda: Everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Who is going to become brāhmaṇa? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brāhmaṇa." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brāhmaṇa he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class.

 

Evening Darsan(2) (Book?)                         August 14, 1976, Bombay                                                           457831

Prabhupāda: Now just like we are attempting--not only here, everywhere--we have got nice buildings, and (indistinct) and Bombay we have constructed such big, big house so we are asking, at least those who are learned people, that if they retire, come here and practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No, nobody's prepared to practice. And this is a thing, without practice you cannot realise.

 

 

 

 

 

Evening Darsan                                            August 14, 1976, Bombay                                                          458002

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is the only God. That's why there is no other alternative. Kṛṣṇa is the God, there is no alternative.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is... That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. All incarnation of God is described, and the summary is given at the end that all these names, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, and so many, hundreds and thousands, so all of them are Kṛṣṇa's plenary portion or portion of the plenary portion. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. It is clearly stated. And Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. There are many incarnation of God. So many incarnations that you cannot count even. Just like it is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that like you cannot count the waves of the river, similarly you cannot count how many incarnations are there. But Bhāgavata gives you the information that all these incarnations, innumerable incarnations, they are portions or part of the portions. But kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. And Kṛṣṇa also confirms that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: "I am the origin." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. What is the difficulty? But unfortunately you have got fertile brain. You manufacture things. And that is your misfortune. It is better to remain a fool before the ācārya. Then he'll make progress. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "My guru saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." When Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī asked Him that "You are a sannyāsī, You are simply chanting," so He replied like that: guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana, "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has said, 'You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You rascal, You cannot do anything.' So I am doing like that." He said that. He represented Himself a representative of the fools and rascals. So kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. This is the only business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then you gradually come to your original sense. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. It is very easy thing. People will not take it. They want to see magic, they want to see jugglery, they want to hear all nonsense. This is the... If you talk nonsense, cheating them, they will like it. Satya bole tomāre lata yuta jagat bihar dana kali-yuga tuk lage anahaspar.(?) Kṛṣṇa is speaking, but... Personally? That is not good. They'll go to some rascal who can talk jugglery and show magic. Who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Who has done it? A seven-years-old boy lifting the mountain. That is mythology. When Kṛṣṇa shows something wonderful, that is mythology. Mythology, Vyāsadeva has written mythology. And big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya and Madhvācārya, big, big, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have studied this mythology and given their comments. Another common sense is that there are hundreds and thousands and millions planets. There is no life, everywhere, rocks and sands, and everything is here? Here there are rocks and sands and there are living entities, there are forests, there is greenness, everything. Variety. Why other planets without varieties? If somebody has created, why he's so dull that he has created everything here, and everywhere simply rocks and sands? And what business he has to do this? Rocks and sand? How he has misspent his valuable time for creating rocks and sand? And wherefrom the sand came? Scientifically, sand is there where there is sea. Because sand is sodium silicate. It is manufactured from salt. So without water there is no question of sand. These things have to be considered. And rock is also combination of sand.

Indian man (2): In today's Times there is a news item. Very light, but it can be giving different sense.(?)

Prabhupāda: What is that news?

Indian man (2): Somebody has given the prediction, I forget his name, but he says that in the next thirty years or so the human beings will discover some things on which gravity does not act.

Prabhupāda: Something?

Yaśomatīnandana: Human beings will discover some things on which the law of gravity does not work.

Prabhupāda: Law of gravity does not work now also. There is no question of this discovery. You take one small needle and you take one big log. The log will float and the needle will go down. The needle is so less weight, but it goes down. And the log is so heavy, it floats. Where is law of gravity?

Indian man (2): But that is, that is only relative. Both are being acted upon...

Prabhupāda: Therefore relative, it is not absolute, law of gravity.

Indian man (2): The thing is, till now we are thinking that light (indistinct) things, and all our thinking was conditioned by that. At least in the scientific context.

Prabhupāda: Scientific context... In Hawaii they cut all the coconuts because they are very scientist--law of gravity. But we don't care for this. We don't care. We are keeping the coconut on our head. We never think of law of gravity, that it will fall down. And those who are very much advanced in law of gravity, they have lost all the beauty of the trees, they have thrown the... They are afraid they will...

Indian man (2): Fall on the head.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will fall down. This is their gain of life. We have discussed this point. Why the green apple does not fall down? So this is their concoction. And why the other planets do not fall down? With so many rocks. Millions. They do not fall down. Where is the law of gravity acting? That means, law means it is made by somebody. And the maker, if He likes, it will act. If He does not like, it will not act. Just like Lord Rāmacandra, all the stones He threw over the sea and they began to float. Not that when He made that bridge with stones, they are solidified. No, they began to float. And all the monkeys went over them. So the lawmaker is Lord Rāmacandra. If He likes, the stone will go down. If He doesn't like, it will float. The lawmaker is fact, not the law. Just like in the state law, today it is law, tomorrow it is no law. It depends on the lawmaker. (break) ...there is the Govardhana Hill. What law is there?

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa's law.

Prabhupāda: No, even these yogis, they can do that. Aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti-siddhi. Aṣṭa-siddhi-yoga. By yogic process you can become so stout and strong that you can take a hill on your... Mahimā.

 

Room Conversation                                     August 14, 1976, Bombay                                                           458268

Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is, it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that, no, no. "So I am also dead." He died later on. Next day. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said, "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died.

Indian Doctor: These things are not very wonderful.

Prabhupāda: From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti. One has to give up āsakti. That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily.

Indian Doctor: Anāsakta-manaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Anāsaktya. Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association.

Indian Doctor: Even there is worship (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis. This husband and wife dying together, it is admitted(?) because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again.

Indian Doctor: Soul has got no tax.(?)

Prabhupāda: Karma-bandha.

Indian Doctor: Karma-bandha and jīva.

Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter.

Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena?

Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma?

Harikeśa:

parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto

yāvan na jijïāsata ātma-tattvam

yāvat kriyās tāvad idaṁ mano vai

karmātmakaṁ yena śarīra-bandhaḥ

Prabhupāda: Bandha.

Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmātmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body."

Prabhupāda: That's all. By lābha-yoga (?) woman will become man and the man will become woman.

Indian Doctor: So long you are taking birth...

Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is,

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma

yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti

na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam

asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand.

Indian Doctor: Kuṇape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brāhmaṇa's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries.

Indian Doctor: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God...

Prabhupāda: No, you have got... You can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti...

Indian Doctor: Bhakti-avyabhicāriṇī. I have got that tendency, bhakti, avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya... So you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. So without bhakti there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body.

Indian Doctor: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ, then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die, and again enter. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. If you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye. It is not good. Nūnam, read that verse.

Harikeśa:

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma

yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti

na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam

asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

Prabhupāda: :Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada, as soon as you get a body, kleśada. May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye. It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation--nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Black money, white money, this money, that..., never mind, bring money.

Indian Doctor: (laughter) By any way.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bas. This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya. Only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor, I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no... Our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life.

Indian Doctor: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality(?) of India, they have proved that (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to the psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, bas, finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and...?

Indian Doctor: But those...

Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool.

Indian Doctor: They are fools to not to think that they'll become...

Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga, so-called meditation, so-called this and... We don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our... We haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it, without interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled.

Indian doctor: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding.

Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big swamis, big, big yogis, big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bas. This is going on. Very serious condition.

Guest: You are not going to go down now?

Prabhupāda: No.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: If I like, I can... (conversation in Hindi) Why I have taken so much trouble?

Guest: They are already traced out. So we come here.

Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

Para-upakāra. Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas, do not teach us "Go and exploit others and bring money"--British Empire. This is not India.

Indian Doctor: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers.

Prabhupāda: Jesus is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally, the people they want to exploit others.

Indian Doctor: It is the greed of the human being.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para-upakāra. That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra. India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage: "Oh, they are very liberal, enter there." And still we are liberal. "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway, I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. Come here, stay. Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do, a child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that, no. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ. "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme.

Indian Doctor: These are the people who have no faith.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī,

dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya

kṛtvā ca kāku-ś atam etad ahaṁ bravīmi

he sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād

gaurāìga-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam

This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya, kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam, "I fall down on your feet and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ, "You are a very nice sādhu. But you forget all nonsense."

Indian Doctor: That's kṛṣṇa-upakāra.(?)

Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya, "Whatever nonsense you have learned--forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād gaurāìga-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"--this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ. If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and... To be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ. Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I can do it. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam. What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. Bas, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog, just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. Just like your medical science, you have infected the disease, you must suffer disease. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgaḥ, guṇa-saìgaḥ. There's infection.

Indian Doctor: Only in nirguṇa, a man can become nirguṇa by...

Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa, first of all (laughter) become a dog.

Indian Doctor: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa, then you may stop from getting a dog. If you do the bhakti. That is what I mean.

Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti. Nirguṇa means bhakti. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān. That is nirguṇa. When you are untouched by the three guṇas, then you are nirguṇa. That is not very easy job. That is not easy.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati. Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. This is nirguṇa. Otherwise, everything sa guṇān, everything sa guṇān. Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is... So (Hindi) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it, and they are doing that.

Indian Doctor: Who?

Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad-gītā. Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like this. Very worse condition of the world. Godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya, that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya... Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi... Find out.

Guest: Bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān.

Prabhupāda: Bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. He has to, he has to. Bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. So we are now put into the material prakṛti, and prakṛti-jān guṇān, we have to accept another body.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

This is the rascaldom. Jaya. Prasādam, you have got? What is the report?

 

Room Conversation                                     August 16, 1976, Bombay                                                           458479

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there.

Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jïeyam akati kṛṣṇa avasyati.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. This is vairāgya. So unless he has attained this stage, virakti, then where is bhakti? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya. But if there is no vairāgya, where is bhakti? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta, then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya, there is no bhakti. It is sahajiyā-bhāva.

Guest: In other words, vairāgya is a by-product of bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated,

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā, simply by bhakti, vāsudeva-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. If actually one is pure bhakta, then everything material finished. That is real bhakta. Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also. That is not bhakti. That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti. No, you take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta. That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. That is bhakti. And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam, it is adulterated.

Dr. Patel: Bhakti-avyabhicāriṇī.

Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī, yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He is above three guṇas. So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti. This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas.

Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving.

Prabhupāda: Vedas, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with Vedas. "Vedas there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing Vedas, there is... He said, "I don't care for it."

veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta nāstika

vedāśraya nāstikya-vāda bauddhake adhika

Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice, that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇòa..." But whether you have followed other things.

Guest: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Then for him Rādhā-kuṇòa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī, and living in Rādhā-kuṇòa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇòa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā. Immediately..."

Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book rāsa-līlā should not be told in public.

Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there, in the book must be there.

Acyutānanda: But in public...

Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām. Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities?

Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell.

Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret, because you use such clear explanation.

Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand.

Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one...

Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa will lift, samaste, Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana...

Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all.

Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā. Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇòa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha. Why should he desire like that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want...

Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane.

Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā-kuṇòa māṭi, tilaka.

Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā-kuṇòa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇòa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇòa. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇòa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇòa vāsī. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in... That is Rādhā-kuṇòa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇòa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau.

Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad-gītā. Then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate and Caitanya-caritāmṛta... This is the step by step. But if one is sincere everything becomes revealed. He does not commit mistake.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikrama of holy places.

Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places.

Acyutānanda: They go independently.

Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized.

Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just...

Prabhupāda: You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper... guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha. This is...

Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use...?

Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā, he has got this.

Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it?

Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. Otherwise he'll argue.

Devotee: Even nitya-siddha has guru.

Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya-siddha.

Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God--guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauòīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next ācārya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya. Then another man came, then another, ācārya, another ācārya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru." Then he's finished.

Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is real ācārya.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching?

Devotee: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Evening Darsan(Arrival)                            August 16, 1976, Hyderabad                                                        458389

Prabhupāda: ...not Paris. Paris we have got rented. What is the?

Devotee: It's a hundred miles away from Paris(?).

Prabhupāda: It is a big name. What...?

Hari-śauri: Lucay de La Male.

Prabhupāda: The interior, near Orleans. So we have got very nice, beautiful palace. We have installed Gaura-Nitāi and Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Indian man: (Hindi) Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: Ha. Four hundred acres land, we are producing our vegetables, vegetables, fruits, and food grains, milk, and two hundred devotees, they are living very happily. (converses in Hindi) It is, for health it is very nice. (Hindi)

                                                                                                                                                                        458440

(slapping sound--for mosquito?) Don't kill.

 

Interview                                                   August 17, 1976, Hyderabad                                                        458624

Interviewer (5): You have some project here. Can you kindly explain what is that?

Prabhupāda: Our project is Bhagavad-gītā, learn Bhagavad-gītā and apply it practically in your life.

Interviewer (5): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying to establish an institution in Kurukṣetra to teach Bhagavad-gītā in practical life and inviting students all over the world. That is our program. We have asked for some land from the government. So if the government gives us the land, we can try it also.

Interviewer (5): (indistinct) Hyderabad?

Prabhupāda: The same program.

Interviewer (4): Here also you have some land or something, I was told.

Prabhupāda: Here?

Interviewer (5): In Hyderabad.

Interviewer (4): You have some project?

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying to... (to devotee:) Land, what is that land? You can give the description.

Devotee: It is near (indistinct) village. It has not yet been confirmed, it is under procedure, but we are trying to develop a big project there, depending on formal procedures...

Prabhupāda: Our project is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Come here, live peacefully, keep your body fit, and work for yourself, you produce your own food, you produce your own cloth, don't be very much anxious for artificial necessities, and save time, and be advanced in spiritual life.

 

Room Conversation                                  August 17, 1976, Hyderabad                                                   458692

Prabhupāda: Do you think they are ordinary calf?

Mahāṁśa: To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ. Nija-rūpa. (Guest speaks in Bengali, Prabhupāda English) In Vṛndāvana, the trees, the land, the water--everyone, ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ. That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti. There are three energies: spiritual, material, and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa, mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa. Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa. There is husband-wife rasa, but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa. So raso vai saḥ. He is the reservoir of rasas. So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas.

Mahāṁśa: Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu.

Prabhupāda: Akhila-rasāmṛta, yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So you can have all the rasas. That is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. In bhakti, that rasa, you become in the ocean of rasa. You're hankering after rasas. There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānandī.(?) One who has got the rasa, labdhvānandi, then he gets the real ānanda. That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry like, simply so 'ham, so'ham. So 'ham, they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa. I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa. But Kṛṣṇa is... (break) ...and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also... While she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa. Combined together it becomes rasa. Similarly Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa. So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas and we have to be situated in the cinmaya. Then our, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. This perverted reflection... My Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled.

 

Room Conversation                                   August 19, 1976, Hyderabad                                                        459128

That is what we simply need, are people... I saw the program so nicely if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that... We're demanding that sincere people come.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people. Free hotel. No.

Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that.

Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work. Attending the program. That is essential.

Jayapatākā: They all attend maìgala-ārati, evening ārati. They should also attend morning class.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential.

Jayapatākā: Maìgala-ārati and morning class.

Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not...

Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth?

                                                                                                                                                                        459243

You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha..." What is that? Paìgu. Andha-paìgu-nyāya. Blind and... Depends on this... Blind and... I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money but blind. And India has got culture but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paìgu-nyāya. Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paìgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the the position. So instead of becoming envious from political... We have nothing to do with... To the Americans unnecessarily thinking that "CIA, CIA..." Let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money; they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince them. It is not the question of India, America, here... It is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata... Why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, American and Indian and this way and that way. Let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the... They'll be happy. Everyone they'll be happy. Will be happy. It is such a nice... India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we... You came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be... So those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately.

                                                                                                                                                                        459352

Prabhupāda: This combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same--andha-paìgu-nyāya. Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string and this became a sitar: "Ting, ting, ting." So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together,...you can "Ting, ting. Similarly andha-paìgu-nyāya. Here is a lame man; here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate. This wire does not change. It is wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful.

Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us.

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is... Again this example (laughs). Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these..."No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here," Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence... In industry also: land labor capital, organization, four things. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money--useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raìganātha (?), he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just... In the Bhagavad-gītā, that is, yajïārthe karma. Everyone is karmī. So the karmīs, the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajïārthe. If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī, then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs. But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs....

Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work.

Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the..., he becomes criminal.

Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served.

Prabhupāda: His purpose is served.

Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is...

Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money... Instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be... Then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used in industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subata Mukerji.

Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning.

Gargamuni: He said, "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity.

Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal: "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture.

Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out.

Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month...

Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours...

Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours.

Gargamuni: And then take out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (continued on another tape) "Come on! Take prasādam "sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house. It is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness--in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything everything will be successful.

Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Because they are raiding...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: "...because you are hoarding. But if you give..."

Prabhupāda: The industrialists... That is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them.

                                                                                                                                                                        459442

Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing?

Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen.

Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black.

Prabhupāda: Because they don't...

Gargamuni: They don't clean it.

Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain. We can utilize it properly.

Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs. For the glory of Queen Victoria.

Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has... Let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial.

Jayapatākā: That is putra. (kīrtana in the background throughout this conv.)

Prabhupāda: Yes, great grandson. Putra is great... The putra was that Edward Seventh.

Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Pun-nārakāt trāyate iti putra.(?) Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922.

Jayapatākā: After her death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Kurgeon's (Curzon?) plan... Lord Kurgeon wanted that let there be asking of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington.

Jayapatākā: Yes. Well, everyone came from England.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England. But ordinary... So Englishman, why he declared war against the English?

Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Mohammedan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Mohammedan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Mohammedans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Auranzeb. He was bigot Mohammedan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a, was is called, bigot, Mohammedan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Auranzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Auranzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave so many temples to many brāhmaṇas. There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa, Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmaṇa. From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Auranzeb... You know Sringarpat Goswami?

Devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you like you to afterwards or take here or what would you like?

Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take.

Devotee 1: Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them.

Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take...

Devotee 1: They have their food and you will also have...

Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple.

Devotee 1: In the temple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour, how they will wait?

Jayapatākā: Better they take separate.

Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Mohammedans may go away. Rather, when Shri Raj Birla (?) was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars, they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested. Although it is alleged that Shri Raj Birla (?) kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Raj Birla kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Raj Birla? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Mohammedans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Mohammedans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Taliganj (?) there is a man. Now they are aristocratic family. He was servant of the nawab, and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jewelled shoe, but it was in India. They were satisfied that "I am nawab. I am using jeweled shoes." But the jewelled shoes was in India and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls and keeping them in their homes, all gold, jewels, everything.

Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris they have inherited of all these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: Many antiques.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Mohammedans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. So India became poverty-stricken.

                                                                                                                                                                        459483

Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs. So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent (?). So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit?

Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it.

Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good (?). Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land but the ceiling..., so they cannot invest money in the land; they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is... Money is decreased, value of all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold. But they will now allow to keep the gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it ten lakhs. That they will not allow. Therefore I... My policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government (for men?), there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                        459458

Prabhupāda: That was nicely... That was nicely printed. So in this way invest our books or land. We don't want to keep cash.

                                                                                                                                                                        459504

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land in temple, constructing temple, developing... So where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water.

 

Room Conversation                                     August 20, 1976, Hyderabad                                                      459646

Prabhupāda: Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land... (break) ...but we... We are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious Vaiṣṇavas, then our position is strong, If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Our behavior should be very clear. "Caeser's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be... This Aghāsura, Bakāsura, will come and... In the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ.(?) If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Which place? Outside? The farm?

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly...

Prabhupāda: Nitāi-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei: "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi: "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain... Two hundred devotees there are. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers, grains also they have got. Barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows.

Gargamuni: Cows.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade.

 

Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭis. When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything.

Jayapatākā: Devotees have brought from the farm.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe she should come here to cook for you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, maybe. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that I live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil, bare necessities. Anartha... Just like this material thing we require for preaching. That is not anartha. But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha. Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha. And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual.

 

Room Conversation(2)                               August 21, 1976, Hyderabad                                                       459884

Prabhupāda: And what is British Empire? British Empire could not occupy the whole world. We are occupying the whole world.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But what they've done is they opened a newsletter which Rāmeśvara Swami sent. And it must have been addressed to Gargamuni Swami. They must have stolen it from the postman by giving him two rupees.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are trying to expand our empire, and it is already done all over the world.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Pradyumna: "Now we've become more than the British Empire. Even the British Empire was not as expansive as we are. They had only a portion of the world, and we have not completed expanding. We must expand more and more unlimitedly."

Prabhupāda: You also explain, that British Empire expanded by military strength. And we are expanding by Ratha-yātrā. We are expanding our empire simply by Ratha-yātrā.

Hari-śauri: East meets West.

Pradyumna: Singing, dancing and chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We introduce three chariots in big, big cities, and conquered them.

Hari-śauri: "Rival to Nelson's Column."

Gargamuni: We are marching through the streets not with guns.

Prabhupāda: They admitted, "Rival to Nelson Column" in Guardian even. So who is strong enough? We are stronger than British Empire. Simply by Ratha-yātrā we are conquering. And actually that is being done. What I have got strength? Forty rupees beginning. Simply Hare Kṛṣṇa and Ratha-yātrā, that's all. That's a fact. They can see, they have got eyes.

 

                                                                                                                                                                       459949

Prabhupāda: My father used to carry śālagrāma-śilā if he was going out in the...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the neck?

Prabhupāda: His Guru Mahārāja advised him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's auspicious.

Prabhupāda: No, it is the safest place. In a linen handkerchief, bound up. Yes. So it is safe always, kaṇṭha. My father used to carry. Wherever he would stay, gaìga-jala, tulasī, decoration. Say, half an hour business. My father was a great devotee. Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You dedicated the Kṛṣṇa book to him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he was a pure Vaiṣṇava. And he wanted me to become like this. He was praying Rādhārāṇī. He was praying to Rādhārāṇī. And any saintly person would come, he would simply say, "Give blessings to my son that he may become a Rādhārāṇī's servant." That was my father's prayer. He never prayed that "My son may become very rich man." He never prayed like that. Actually, his ardent desire that his son may become a Vaiṣṇava. And my Guru Mahārāja's training has put me this position. That I have admitted. Later on. What is that word I have given? Hmm? Find out.

Gargamuni: "The eternal father?"

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Which was later on solidified..."

Prabhupāda: Ahh!

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "...by my eternal father."

Prabhupāda: "The ideas given by my father were solidified by..."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what you said.

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Gargamuni: "To my father, Gour Mohan De, 1849-1930, pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, who raised me as a Kṛṣṇa conscious child from the beginning of my life. In my boyhood ages he instructed me how to play the mṛdaìga. He gave me Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa vigraha to worship and he gave me Jagannātha Ratha to duly observe the festival as my childhood play. He was kind to me, and I imbibed from him the ideas later on solidified by my spiritual master, the eternal father."

 

Room Conversation(2)                               August 22, 1976, Hyderabad                                                       460269

Prabhupāda: When the Englishmen were ruling over this country and Gandhi had to do so much labor, his life sacrificed, some way or other they were gone. Now the same Englishman is working here as book distributor. (laughs) Who was our ruler. So whose achievement is better? Gandhi's or mine?

Gargamuni: Yours.

Prabhupāda: And one Englishman is giving me massage. This rascal criticizing. But they have come to me for money? They are poor or they are illiterate fools? They have come to me for money or some material gain? No. Unless they are convinced about the spiritual gain, why they should give me such service? They have no eyes to see.

Gargamuni: No, because in India, many Indians, when they approach a guru, they want something. But we didn't have to approach you for anything.

Prabhupāda: That is the speciality. The guru... One should go to guru to serve him as menial servant. That is acceptance of guru. That is required. Nīcavat. Nīca, nīca means menial. Just like menial servant, he does everything. Similarly, to live with guru means to serve him as a menial servant. That is Vedic injunction. Nīcavat. You should not be puffed up, that "I am coming from such royal family, I am coming from such rich family." And that tendency is trained up from the childhood. A child does not know. Just like Pradyumna's son. You can engage him in any menial service. He does not discriminate. He's trained up. So this is gurukula. Very word is used, nīcavat. He gives service to the guru just like a menial servant. And this training being given from the childhood, he does not know what is low or what is high. His spiritual master asks to do something... Even Kṛṣṇa went to the forest to collect some dry wood. Vasudeva's son, in royal family, but he had to go. And all of a sudden there was storm and, what is called?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Lightning.

Maṇihāra: Thunder.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Hail.

Prabhupāda: Hailstorm. And they became entrapped in the jungle whole night. And in the morning guru with other disciples came to search out them. And this Sudāmā Vipra and Kṛṣṇa was stranded, and they were found out, then taken back. So even Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He served the guru as menial. The guru's wife asked Him, "Bring some fuel from the jungle," and they went immediately. This is gurukula. No, I mean to say, prestigious position. "Guru has said--has to be done." This training. Then?

                                                                                                                                                                        460306

Prabhupāda: Keep your health nice, because Indian climate sometimes does not suit. Eat simple things. Fruits, vegetables. Don't be miser in the matter of... But don't eat voraciously. Eat sufficiently, nutritious.

Gargamuni: Yes. I have also told they should eat nice fruits and vegetable so they will keep healthy.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Vegetable, fruits, very innocent, little milk. That's all. Even if you don't eat these foodgrains, that is preferred. Better. Vegetable and fruits and milk, that is sufficient nutritious. There is no question of disease. But for our tongue taste we eat so many cooked food, but if we eat vegetables, boiled vegetables and fruits and milk, ah, it is sufficient. Ekādaśī. (laughter) Daily ekādaśī.

And these peanuts, a few grains. Not much. That is also nice. Cashew, peanut. Yes. So thank you very much. You are working so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Bas. You become a guru. Actually you are doing the guru's work. "Here is a message from Kṛṣṇa. Please take it." Bas. Simple. Yāre dekha. And whomever you meet, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Either you speak personally or give him a book.

Maṇihāra: This is the noon paper published...

Prabhupāda: "Explosion." Mahāṁśa Swami is continuing this.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: It looks nice.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. As soon as we decide to work for Kṛṣṇa very sincere. What is this Kṛṣṇa crossword? This is gambling.

Gargamuni: Kṛṣṇa crossword puzzle.

Hari-śauri: Oh. Crosswords are gambling?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Maṇihāra: Gambling?

Prabhupāda: Is it not gambling?

Hari-śauri: They give clues and it's to make you think.

Maṇihāra: They give a clue. They say...

Prabhupāda: But there is prize.

Maṇihāra: No, I don't think there is prize.

Gargamuni: There is in the other newspapers. Maybe not in this. But they do offer prize. You send in, then they choose prize.

Prabhupāda: So they work, originally it began for prize. (laughs) Otherwise, these karmīs, why they shall waste their time? They wanted some prize.

Hari-śauri: Sometimes they print their names in the next issue. "The last week's winner was..."

Prabhupāda: "Winner." That means prize.

Maṇihāra: There's no mention of any reward. Just...

Prabhupāda: Anything of these four prohibited regulations should not do. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā, four kinds of pāpa-- sinful activities. From the very beginning, because I introduced this, no catur-vidhā, four kinds of pāpa. Therefore our Society is now so respected. From the very beginning we are following to keep these principles in forefront. This is appreciated by anyone. Even he is himself a debauch, he'll appreciate. It is so nice thing. A person may be a big drunkard, but he'll never like to see his son drunkard. That is natural.

                                                                                                                                                                        460380

Prabhupāda: So that was my policy, that I shall go America, and if the Americans become devotees then these rascals will be automatically. Here they could not appreciate. When I started, wanted to start this movement, they refused to give their son.

Hari-śauri: They always say a preacher is never appreciated in his home town.

Prabhupāda: "Swamiji, what benefit there will be by becoming brāhmaṇa, by devotee? They have to earn their livelihood." Spiritual culture is in India practically rejected. They are convinced with the idea that for spiritual culture we are so much behind this material. That is their full conviction.

Hari-śauri: It must have been a big shock for them when they first saw our devotees. It must have been a big shock for them when they saw these shaved heads and chanting.

Prabhupāda: That minister is coming?

Maṇihāra: Today?

Prabhupāda: Somebody told?

Gargamuni: Yes, at 10:30 they said. Gopāla said he's coming. I don't know, but I will ask.

Maṇihāra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we give prasāda to people...

Prabhupāda: Anyone who comes, he must be given prasāda.

Maṇihāra: ...what is the benefit they get exactly? There have been so many concoctions: "Oh, they will take human birth," "they will take this..." What is the actual benefit that a karmī will get when he takes prasāda?

Prabhupāda: Prasāda means the mercy of Kṛṣṇa.

Maṇihāra: Mercy.

Prabhupāda: By eating you are getting mercy. Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay swa-prasād-anna dilo bhāi. Swa-prasād-anna dilo bhāi. Sei prasāda anna pāo rādhā-kṛṣṇa-guṇa gāo preme òāko caitanya-nitāi.

Maṇihāra: 'Cause some devotees, they are saying...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy. Because we want eating, so He is giving His mercy through eating. Eating nobody will refuse. So by eating he is being favored by Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. You understand Bengali? Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy, He's very merciful. Koribāre jihvā jay. We are accustomed to eat, go to the restaurant, go to the hotel, go to here and there, at home and so on. Simply eating, eating. So this is jihvā lampaṭa. Prostitution of the tongue. Just like a woman prostitute is not satisfied with one man. Similarly, our tongue is like a prostitute. It is not satisfied with simple foods. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes on the street, sometimes on the restaurant, sometimes a hotel. Regular prostitution. It is called tongue prostitution. There are prostitution of three things: prostitution of the tongue, prostitution of the belly, and prostitution of the genital. Three kinds of. Udara-upastha-vegam. Jihvā-udara-upastha-vegam. Straight line. So to stop this prostitution is to control the tongue. The tongue prostitution means he wants to eat varieties of foodstuff. Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, "All right, you eat varieties of prasāda." Then tongue prostitution is controlled and naturally the belly and the genital controlled. Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay. To own victory over the tongue, He has given varieties... Therefore all nice things should be offered to Kṛṣṇa and then take prasāda. They will be benefited.

Maṇihāra: This is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, special.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay.. Jaya means you conquer over the tongue. If you do not give tongue Kṛṣṇa prasāda then the tongue will dictate, "Why not go to the restaurant?" So this is the process. Give everyone nice prasāda. His tongue will be conquered and he'll be conquered. He'll be able to conquer over the prostitution of the senses, and then he'll become a devotee. Hyderabad papers have given us good publicity. Very nice.

Hari-śauri: Any reasonable persons appreciate it.

Prabhupāda: How the books are being supplied? From Bombay?

Devotee (2): When we were working from Bombay, Bombay was sending them by rail. But now Gargamuni Swami, he has given us some books to supply immediately to the libraries, and then others that we can't... If we don't have enough to supply all the libraries, he's going to arrange for more to be sent. I think he wants to send a van, a vehicle around all the colleges to deliver the books.

Prabhupāda: He will make some good profit? (laughs) Never mind. If books are distributed, that is our satisfaction. Let anyone make some profit. We don't mind.

 

Prabhupada: Never mind. The books must reach there. That is my...

Devotee(2): One way or the other the books will get there.

Prabhupada: Yes That's all. Doesn't matter. We are not after profit.

                                                                                                                                                                        460416

Mahāṁśa: There's only five first initiations. Those ladies, I told them to wait some more time. Those ladies, I told them to wait for some more time because they were still drinking tea and coffee until yesterday.

Prabhupāda: No, if they promise they will give up, then we can give.

Mahāṁśa: I already told them, "You please..." They said they will give up but I said that you...

Prabhupāda: No, if they promise you can give.

Mahāṁśa: But, they are waiting, what shall I tell them now? I just now told them...

Prabhupāda: No, tell them that, "If you promise from today you will give up..."

Mahāṁśa: They promised.

Prabhupāda: Then we shall give it.

Mahāṁśa: All five of them?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If they have promised, we shall give. Simply you don't break promise. You have promised--do it. That's all.

Mahāṁśa: I'll tell them. Another thing was those, what is, I don't know what is the position of ladies being initiated. They are young girls. They may get married. They may get married to someone outside the society.

Prabhupāda: But she can chant and observe the rules and regulations--what is that.

Mahāṁśa: Even if her husband does not follow?

Prabhupāda: That does not matter. It is individual.

Mahāṁśa: Then there'll be five more.

Prabhupāda: My sister, while she was married, her father-in-law's house, they were all eating fish. So a new girl, ten years, eleven years old. So she was given this foodstuff with fish and everything. So she was crying. So her mother-in-law, "Why you are crying?" "No, we do not touch all these things." She immediately arranged special cooking for her. So her husband and other members they were taking fish, but she never touched. She never touched. She does not know what is fish. If one wants to keep oneself pure, he or she can keep herself pure in any circumstances.

Mahāṁśa: Okay. And there'll be two second initiations, two devotees from here. So I will talk to them again because just now I've told them "You must wait one month more." They were willing to.

Prabhupāda: If they'll promise, that's all right.

Mahāṁśa: So I'll tell them like that. Okay. Then the names and beads will be given downstairs by Your Grace? You'll be coming down?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They should be wearing their neckbeads before. At least two lines.

                                                                                                                                                                              460435

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa will recognize your service. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ. You are distributing this knowledge, so you become immediately recognized, very dear servant, very confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa. He says personally. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu. "Amongst the human beings those who are doing this preaching, nobody is dearer than these persons to Me--anyone." You have read that?

Devotee (2): That's in Eighteenth Chapter? Yes.

Prabhupāda: To be quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa, this is the short-cut process. He never says those who are sitting in a secluded place meditating or chanting, doing nothing. He never says that "They are My very dear devotees." But those who are preaching--na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me. Just like government takes more care for the soldiers, especially when there is fighting. They are giving life for the state. So their comfort--first consideration. In the warfield, enough supplies. Anything the soldiers require. Enough supplies. Sometimes the store is blown out. And again another store is ready. Therefore in the wartime they control. (break) ...destroy them. And still another store. So therefore supply is sufficient. Civil supplies become controlled. Whatever they want, supply is there.

                                                                                                                                                                        460477

Prabhupāda: Yes. Internationalism. Why it is a short-sighted view, "They cannot come here"? Everyone is God's son, and everything belongs to God. If one finds opportunity in some place, let him have it. I think if this is adopted by the United Nation, immediately the face of the world will change. The Chinese and the Indians, they are very expert. If they are given place, they can immediately turn that place into a nice food-producing village. They can do that. And you can produce anything usable from anywhere according to the climate. Especially in America, the facility is very, very great. So many jungles. If the jungles are cut, the woods can be used for making house and the field can be used for producing food and milk, cows, everything. Around our New Vrindaban there are many places.

Hari-śauri: Both our... Pennsylvania farm has 100 acres of woods.

Prabhupāda: Especially in America. There is enough place. And England also. There is enough place. They are not being utilized.

 

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh          August 22, 1976, Hyderabad                          460512

(Ministers for Endowments, Social Services, Revenue, Public Works Dept., Minor Irrigation, Rehabilitation and Fisheries.)                                                                                    

(long speech in Hindi by minister)

Prabhupāda: Our subject matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that systematize... The progress of human society should be systematized according to śāstra. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called śāstra. Śās-dhātu means to rule. From Śās-dhātu, śāstra and śastra. Śastra means weapon. If you do not act according to the śāstra then there is śastra. Śastra means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same śās-dhātu is śiṣya, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline.

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti

na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim

                                                                                                                                                                                    460521

You are very great devotees of Bālajī. Bālajī is Kṛṣṇa, Bāla Kṛṣṇa. So I wish that the government may be conducted under the guide of Bālajī, Lord Kṛṣṇa. That is my request. And the codes and the orders and the rules and regulations, they're all stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and accept... We accept, consciously or unconsciously. That is our Indian culture, Vedic culture. Still, hundreds and thousands of people go to see Bālajī, and they contribute their hard-earned money for worshiping the Lord. This is the principle. Yajïārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. I have seen in Bālajī temple, mostly cultivators, they come, stand whole day there just to offer something, yajïārthe, for the satisfaction of the Lord. It's a great culture. Yajïārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. So karma, ordinary fruitive activities should be carried on for yajïārthe, for the satisfaction of Bālajī, or Kṛṣṇa. Not otherwise. The same, what is gathered as contribution, it should be utilized for yajïa. Because the money is given for yajïa, not for other purposes. That is a fact. Of course, the money is there. The innocent villagers, they have given the money in good faith that Kṛṣṇa or Bālajī will accept it and their hard labor will be successful. Yajïārthe karmaṇa. Now that money should be properly utilized for yajïārthe. Actually, everything belongs to God, Bālajī. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. We are claiming unnecessarily, "This is mine." That is called māyā. Nothing belongs to us. Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. But we have claimed the Lord's property as our own. That is misgiving. Therefore yajïa is recommended. Return to the Supreme voluntarily. That is called yajïa.

varṇāśramācāra-vatā

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

The varṇāśrama-dharma, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajïa. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization. Varṇāśrama. How to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajïa.

 

So the human life is meant for tapasya, not for sense gratification. Sense gratification, the facility is there even in the hogs and dogs life. So the human life is meant for yajïa. We have got this chance. And especially in your province there is Bālajī, and Bālajī has got sufficient income. That income should be utilized for satisfaction of Bālajī. Not otherwise. That is our request. People are suffering for want of God consciousness. So everything should be spent for spreading God consciousness all over the world. At least, people are contributing to Bālajī, so whatever Bālajī's property is there, that should be utilized for Bālajī's mission. The Bālajī's mission is... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

This idaṁ guhyam, this confidential knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, should be spread all over the world. People are suffering. And that is the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He advises that āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. So it will be glory of India if we preach the message of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. They're accepting. And I wish that the Bālajī's estate, Bālajī's money, should be spent for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for any other purpose. That is my request.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Indian (1): Please permit...

Prabhupāda: Your question is?

Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head--brāhmaṇa; the arms--kṣatriya; the belly--vaiśya; and the leg--śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required--military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa--sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya--that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma. So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyaïjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

Yad anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet. So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high court judge, it is not that because you are born of high court judge you become a high court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...

 

Meeting with Endowments Commissioner         August 24, 1976, Hyderabad                                               460933

So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa. Their hard-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajïa, that is wanted. Yajïārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajïa. First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajïa. Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission. That is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there, everything is declared there in the Bhagavad-gītā. We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated. Dharmasya glānir bhavati. So any dharma, so-called dharma, which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ. Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: Iti te jïānam...

Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not... Kṛṣṇa's mission is that "Surrender unto Me." Now who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jïānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina, mūòha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jïāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam. We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their... Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram. Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān... If anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment.

Harikeśa:

tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān

saṁsāreṣu narādhamān

kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān

āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu

Prabhupāda: This is their punishment.

Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life."

Prabhupāda: And next verse?

Harikeśa:

āsurīṁ yonim āpannā

mūòhā janmani janmani

mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya

tato yānty adhamāṁ gatim

"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."

Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money... There is nothing our money. Everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking. Because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu. "Ha!" Rāvaṇa. "Ha! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajïa is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you.

Minister: Swamiji we are karmī-yogīs. We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty...

Prabhupāda: But a karma-yogī, why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma?

Minister: For what? (indistinct) That is for...

Prabhupāda: That is the...

Minister: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used.

Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says,

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ

yatantaś ca dṛòha-vratāḥ

namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā

nitya-yuktā upāsate

You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. As we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti. That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. You cannot say "We are karma-yogīs." Karma-yogī means the third-class. He's karmī and little mixed up with bhakti. Adulterated. Jïāna-yogī, he's not a bhakta. He's jïānī, but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti. You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam. When it will be tintless of any karma and jïāna, then it is pure bhakti. That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. Not mixed up with jïāna, karma, yoga. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that tattva, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa. That is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third-class. They are addicted to karma, a little bhakti, that's all. That is not pure. Jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam. When there is not a tinge of karma and jïāna, that is pure bhakti. That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you, not according to our whims, but according to śāstra. And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly... Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. Except kṛṣṇa-bhakti, bhaktyā, everything is glāniḥ. All glāniḥ. And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta--nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa--everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti. You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya. It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya. If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure... That is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty naiṣṭhikī bhakti

uttama-śloke bhavati naiṣṭhikī.

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ

kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye

ceta etair anāviddhaṁ

sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati

So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra-viddhi. One step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi, we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti. It will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi. (pause) If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent per cent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmaṇa is doing, acting like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya. So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Anyone can know because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act upon it. That requires training. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that. Trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that. (Hindi) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat. And so on, so on.

Minister: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.

Minister: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that. And you are making the man, the human being a servant of that (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.

Minister: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. That you are making it one is very good.

Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas. Śāstra, which is accepted by the ācārya, that is śāstra. You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras. Approved by the ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya. Everyone. They are preaching Bhagavad-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals, and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for preaching Gītā. But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise I shall... My life is ended, now eighty-one. I do not... But so long I shall live I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Dṛòha-vrata. And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it. See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ. Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                        460991

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Our farming projects, very successful. Now here Badrukaji is also giving us some land. (indistinct)

Hari-śauri: Vāsughoṣa.

Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (pause) (kīrtana in background) (break) There is a logic, andha-paìgu-nyāya. One man is blind. Another man is lame. Both are useless. When they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction, "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money--lame. And they have got money but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paìgu-nyāya. So by this cooperation they have... When I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now since I have gone there I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya. He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. We have got many other films also. How we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabhārata Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vrindaban (Hindi). They gave this heading. And they gave all details how to use the land New Vrindaban in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land and they are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient quantity of anna. Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajïād bhavati parjanyo yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Yajïārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. This formula should be... That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission, what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission (Hindi). Kṛṣṇa to carry personally, (indistinct), aham ādir hi devānām. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra. He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes bhagavān uvāca. (Hindi)

 

Room Conversation(2)                              Hyderabad, August 24, 1976                                                        460808

Prabhupāda: To live very gorgeously is not good.

Mahāṁsa: But even their houses are not so clean, shabby.

Prabhupāda: Even though they're not... You cannot say not... They are clean. I have seen in Bombay even the poorest man, his house, and a Parsee gentleman, his house. Kitchen habits. A Parsee's kitchen is so nasty. And here you see this poor man's house, they are neat. Their utensils how much cleansed. I had been in Parsee kitchen. All the pots black. Nothing is cleansed. For eating they use this China. So clean or unclean cannot be understood. Simply washed. But so far the kitchen pots, all are... In our also, when it is handled by this European, American devotees, the black. Down, it is black. That should not be black. It must be cleansed.

Mahāṁsa: By the heat with these wood, it brings up a lot of soot.

Prabhupāda: But it must be cleansed daily.

Mahāṁsa: It should not come on your finger if you touch it. That black thing.

Prabhupāda: Not even you cannot see black, any black spots. Then it is clean. Otherwise not clean. If there's a single black spot, it is not clean. You can see from this poor class of men, how their utensils are cleansed. Before taking water the jug, the waterpot... You'll like to drink water. In our school days there were sweeper, they were a different quarter. So you like to sit down. So clean. The sweeper, cleansing the toilet, bangi. But when you come to his house, living quarter, oh, it is so clean. The bed, the room, the utensils. And they also will take twice, thrice bath, then they will eat. That is a Hindu culture. Even the sweeper class, lowest class. And I have seen one sweeper class who were in Allahabad, regularly worshiping Deity. Very nice worship.

Mahāṁsa: So a Vaiṣṇava then...

Prabhupāda: They took initiation from the Vṛndāvana Goswami and they follow strictly rules and regulations. Cleanliness is very essential. In English also it is said cleanliness is next to Godliness. Everything should be, especially temple. It will attract them. And we are singing daily, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛìgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Tat-mandira-mārjana. Mārjana means cleanliness. And want of cleanliness means laziness. If you are lazy you cannot keep clean. "Ah, let me sleep for the time being." That is mode of ignorance. Tamo-guṇa. So we have to conquer over rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Then there is question of coming to the platform, śuddha, sāttvika. Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam. Where is this verse? In Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Pradyumna: Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam.

Prabhupāda: Maybe Fourth Chapter, Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Pradyumna: Caitanya-caritāmṛta was quoted? Ādi-līlā?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Mahāṁsa: Shall I go and bring the agreement?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Western world is very busy manufacturing this machine. And they are thinking this is advancement of civilization.

Hari-śauri: Technology.

Prabhupāda: That is not advancement.

 

Meeting with Member of Parliament, Mr. Krsna Modi                      August 31, 1976, Delhi                        461399

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is always traveling. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. Throughout the whole world the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. (Hindi)

Krishna Modi: India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Kali-yuga, this age, the yajïa is hari-kīrtana. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. (Hindi)

Garden Conversation                               September 3, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                      461950

Prabhupāda: ...with some Indian wife they were called Eurasian, and Englishman marrying Indian wife they were called Anglo-Indian. There was a big Anglo-Indian community and they were given good facilities by the Britishers for government jobs, railways. In railway, almost cent percent. The driver, the guard, the ticket inspector, all, means, semi-important jobs, they were all given to these Anglo-Indians. Because they were not very much educated. And officers, they were all Britishers. Officers, secretaries. And Indians were clerks. Indians, they were accepted as clerks only. No officers. In military, Indian Sikhs and Gurkha, especially Sikhs, they were very valiant. Still they are valiant. They were given the post of captain. Not general. General all Englishmen.

Caraṇāravindam: I have seen many Sikh soldiers. They're very big. They're very noble looking soldiers.

Prabhupāda: They're very, martial race. Practically, the Britishers expanded their empire with these Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers.

Hari-śauri: The Gurkha, they're very...

Caraṇāravindam: And Nepalese soldiers.

Prabhupāda: Nepalese. They are very brave.

Hari-śauri: Yes, they're very renowned.

Prabhupāda: Sikhs are very brave. They're martial. And another martial race, Jats. They are kṣatriyas. Oh, they can fight... When Britishers possessed India they organized this military with Sikhs especially, Jats, and Gurkhas. And they expanded their empire, Burma, Ceylon, Africa, all these British Empire possessions. And not only that, they fought two big world wars with these Sikhs soldiers. They conquered over this Mesopotamia, Middle East.

Caraṇāravindam: They worked so hard. It's a pity they weren't doing it for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They like military. They want military jobs. Very kṣatriya spirit.

Caraṇāravindam: They collected so much, but they lost it because they didn't give it to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Ah, their bad policy that they wanted India for Britishers' benefit. That is not duty of the government. Government should be for the welfare of the people. Then that government will continue. But they exploited the Indian people for the benefit of their own countrymen. That is the failure. That policy was not good. Therefore they finished within two hundred years. They began their ruling 1775, like that. And 1947... Not even two hundred years.

Caraṇāravindam: And now nothing.

Prabhupāda: Now, after losing India, they have no more British Empire. Because they cannot maintain without Indian soldiers. Therefore they voluntarily left.

                                                                                                                                                                        462021

Prabhupāda: This is made simple. It is very nice. Rather, you can... No, it is all right. There is no space. In India, on the roof, we allow to grow squash.

Caraṇāravindam: You would like some growing?

Prabhupāda: Very small.

Caraṇāravindam: I plan to grow mālatī up this side.

Prabhupāda: You grow, on the thatched roof they grow squash.

Hari-śauri: I think they were doing that in Māyāpura. There was one big plant growing on the...

Prabhupāda: So that the family can get one squash, that is sufficient for family. Vegetable. People used to live formerly without any worries. Everything was so easily available, at least foodstuffs. They had no anxiety.

Caraṇāravindam: Little effort, just basic, a little work and...

Prabhupāda: They got their own paddy from the field, milk, some vegetables. Those who are fish eaters, they have got small lake, fish. Whole family without any... "Where I shall get money?" "How shall I eat?" These things were absent. Even the poor man.

Caraṇāravindam: Actually I have seen that even in all these villages in Africa and India, they have no real connection to the city politics. Because if the city breaks down they could move back to... They have their cow, they have field, vegetables...

Prabhupāda: If there is war they were not affected. And the soldiers would not bother the public. It is said during Mohammedan period the soldiers of one party will ask the cultivator, "Where the other soldiers gone?" They would say, "I have seen and they have gone this side." The cultivator is going on. The fighting is going on, but the cultivator is not affected. He is free. "You fight between themselves and whoever the victor is, I shall pay taxes. That's all. I have nothing to do with politics." This was... Between two parties of king or political, they may fight. Citizens, they have nothing to do who is the victorious. "You fight and one of you will become victorious. So you take taxes. I am concerned with paying tax. And tax, tax means whatever I have grown, you take one-fourth. You see this I have grown. Now you can take away one-fourth." No income tax, no sale tax, no this tax or that tax. And if some year, by chance, he has not grown anything--no tax. "I have not produced, I could not produce anything." Very simple. Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully.

 

Room Conversation                                  September 5, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     462374

Prabhupāda: Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand rupees. Keep fifty men.

Akṣayānanda: I don't think it's necessary for you to pay.

Prabhupāda: So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right.

Akṣayānanda: No, it's not necessary.

Prabhupāda: Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasāda, so many other things.

Indian man: And the altars.

Prabhupāda: That should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here. How things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five.

Harikeśa: That's three rupees a day.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Haṁsadūta: If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap, and toothpaste...

Prabhupāda: No soap. Take this Rādhā-kuṇòa's... Why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇòa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇòa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? (Hindi conversation to the effect that if one has the dust of Vṛndāvana or Rādhā-kuṇòa, there is no necessity for soap) Nim datun? I was doing nim datun(?) until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim. But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days. I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī. When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun(?) regularly. And I can give you the paste. So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. (Hindi conversation for some time)

                                                                                                                                                                        462464

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for... In 1965 to '66, 66-67, regular hard struggle.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know that's a crisis.

Prabhupāda: You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facility. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we... sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saìge. That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu, those who are devotees. Tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs.

ei chay gosāi yār mui tāro dās

tāì-sabāra pada-reṇu mora païca-grās

You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu...

śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ

sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

That should be our prayer. When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet. And that is... Narottama dāsaÖhākura prays, tāìdera caraṇa-sebi. Tāìdera means the six Gosvāmīs. Ei chay gosāi yāìr tāìr mui dās. I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs. And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe. Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta. This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāìr.

rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhabo se jugala-pīriti

Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇòa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇòa and become a candidate.

rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhabo se jugala-pīriti

Narottama dāsa Öhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā-kuṇòa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema? Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas, they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti, kabe hāma bujhabo. When I shall understand? And they have understood immediately everything. (Hindi) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility.

abodha karuṇā-sindhu kāciyā mahān

prahlāda brahmā durlab prema nitāi kore dhana(?)

That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Öhākura said, tāìdera saìge. Aim should be how to serve Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the goat. I'll go early so that I may take the first. And come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Then?

 

Room Conversation(2)                             September 5, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                      462282

Prabhupāda: Restless, that's all. Mind not fixed up. Restless. Now what he'll do with that four thousand rupees? It is very good program. If I get some thousands of rupees and sit down in Rādhā-kuṇòa and eat, that is very good idea.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we can find him. We know where he is.

Prabhupāda: You can find him, that is not difficult, but what is his mentality. Why he has gone to Rādhā-kuṇòa if he was teaching here? You cannot rely upon him. When he'll go (indistinct). Rādhā-kuṇòa, Rādhārāṇī's place, if anyone thinks that it is very easy to remain in Rādhā-kuṇòa, the topmost place. Rūpa Gosvāmī has spoken--he must speak about Rādhā-kuṇòa. But what he has spoken about other things?

atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca

prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ

jana-saìgaś ca laulyaṁ ca

ṣaòbhir bhaktir vinaśyati

So Rādhā-kuṇòa, who will live Rādhā-kuṇòa? One is topmost devotee, and if he mixes with third-class devotee, how he is fit for living in Rādhā-kuṇòa? There is no difference between Rādhā-kuṇòa and Rādhārāṇī. So how you can jump over Rādhārāṇī? Rādhā-kuṇòa and Rādhārāṇī nondifferent. How you can enjoy Rādhā-kuṇòa by swimming? You cannot touch with your feet even Rādhā-kuṇòa. You can take little water and keep it on the head. That is respectful to Rādhā-kuṇòa. Of course, things are going on like that, but strictly speaking, Rādhā-kuṇòa should be respected as Rādhārāṇī herself. That is Rādhā-kuṇòa consciousness. Highest Rādhā-kuṇòa consciousness. And if you want to live in Rādhā-kuṇòa, then why he has taken four thousand rupees from Girirāja?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Girirāja gave him that money to buy books for our library of our new temple, for the library...

Prabhupāda: So why should he take, why should he take the responsibility for purchasing if he's interested in Rādhā-kuṇòa?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's not right. He had his own money also. He just got a lot of money from his wife. Three, four hundred dollars he told me.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Money is not the strength for understanding Rādhārāṇī. If you have got some money, by the strength of money you'll understand Rādhārāṇī. That is another bogus thing. Rādhārāṇī...

Indian man: (Hindi conversation for some time)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja was asking me for the books.

Prabhupāda: Just see. The man who paid him, he was inquiring where are the books? (Hindi) That Mukunda, his class friend, he was doing that. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him. (Hindi) "He goes everywhere." (Hindi) We have got index in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. You can find out what is the meaning of... (Hindi) ...one who is rejected.

 

Garden Conversation                               September 6, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                      462480

Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about this and that?

Caraṇāravindam: Prabhupāda, you wrote in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that the Caitanya mahā-mantra, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, there is no offense to that. And so therefore in the Kali-yuga it is actually more beneficial...

Prabhupāda: Offense is that what is spoken by the ācāryas, if you do not follow, that is offense. Guror avajïā. That is offense. To chant Gaura-Nitāi is no offense. But if our previous gurus have chanted śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita--why should we go beyond that? That is guror avajïā. Even there is no aparādha, because guru, Kavirāja Gosvāmī, has sung like that and my guru has sung, we should follow that. We should not make any deviation. That is guror avajïā śruti-śāstra-nindanam. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. So it comes to be one of the items of the daśa-vidha-aparādha. Guror avajïā.

Caraṇāravindam: Should we consider that it's more beneficial for people to hear bhaja śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya...

Prabhupāda: Why? There is already... Why should you go here and there? There is already śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda. Why you are so anxious to go out of it?

Caraṇāravindam: No, I'm saying is it more beneficial for people to hear that mantra than the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Is it more beneficial for people to hear the Païca-tattva mantra than the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. You are going to Hare Kṛṣṇa through Nitāi-Gaura. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā-kṛṣṇa pābe. The principle is don't try to manufacture. Because you are not experienced. So what nonsense you will manufacture, that will be offensive. Better go on, the simple thing.

Akṣayānanda: I know one devotee that chants Païca-tattva mantra...

Prabhupāda: Let them chant whatever. We shall chant like this, Païca-tattva--śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. I've explained that. Five features of Lord Caitanya.

                                                                                                                                                                        462519

Caraṇāravindam: Are we doing bhakti, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That is viddhi-bhakti. And this is rāga-bhakti, spontaneous. Through viddhi-bhakti you have to come to the stage of rāga-bhakti. Without viddhi-bhakti, you'll not... Because you are conditioned. Those who are liberated, they immediately get rāga-bhakti. Not by imitation. That is another thing. Nitya-siddha. (Japa:) Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... So I have got all encouragement. Go and preach. Don't be afraid. Simply present, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Whatever you have learned from Kṛṣṇa, from your guru, just vomit it, that's all. There is no need of becoming very expert. Simply whatever you learned. That's all.

Harikeśa: Lots of kīrtana and prasādam?

Prabhupāda: That's it. That is our main... Anyone will like. Chant mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them prasādam, and everyone will take.

                                                                                                                                                                        462532

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? If halavā is made nicely, actually it is best. So prepare all these things. Offer to Kṛṣṇa and devotees, and at last you take. Don't take first. Give all, as much as you like, then you take. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam. It is such a nice movement. It is simply pleasing. To execute, it is simply pleasing. And avyayam. Whatever you do is permanent. Whatever little service you have given. It will never be lost. Avyayam. Therefore Nārada Muni says, bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi. Even if he's not fully matured and falls down, kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kim. Where is loss? Whatever he has done, that is permanent. Because that will grow. If the seed is permanently sown, then it will naturally grow. It may take some time, but it will grow. So he's not loser. If he's little careful, then it will grow. Mālī haïā sei bīja kare āropaṇa, śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye... Then the creeper goes, grows, and at last takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa. These are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Vipramukhya: When we prepare a feast we should give and give and give, and when no one wants any more then...

Prabhupāda: Up until he comes to this point. Not only this point, but up to this point. Eat as much as you like. We are not miser. You eat. As much you want I shall supply. But don't waste. Eat. Don't waste.

Hari-śauri: This morning you were saying that fasting is very good. (laughter)

Harikeśa: I was just thinking about that.

Prabhupāda: No. Not prasādam. I never said. No, those who want to eat... Fasting... One who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for him fasting. And one who takes pleasure, "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure, or Kṛṣṇa's food. I'll take." This is the idea. So we are not devotees, therefore we should first fast. And those who are devotees, they'll take as much as they like. I was telling fasting because I am not a devotee. (laughs) For me fasting is good. If I eat more--atyāhāraḥ. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca, ṣaòbhir bhaktir praṇaśyati.

Hari-śauri: If you can appreciate kṛṣṇa-prasādam without filling up to the neck...

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is for the devotee. A devotee can eat. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eating. Govinda, his servant complained, "Sir, so many things are lying here and everyone asks, 'Whether Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taken my preparation.' 'Oh yes, He has taken.' So I have to speak so many lies. You don't take. What can I do?" He said, "All right, bring it. Bring it." So He began to eat for one hundred men's foodstuff stocked. He finished. Then He asked, "Any more?" So, now only the bags are there. Everything finished. (laughs) So He ate. Everything, one after another, one after another, one after another. "All right. Bring, bring, bring." So He can eat. We cannot. This water is going there? It is going only one side and not other side? (indistinct)

Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it a sign of advancement in devotional service...

Prabhupāda: Branch?

Akṣayānanda: Advancement. If somebody wants to preach. Is that the sign of advancement?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Akṣayānanda: That's the first sign.

Prabhupāda: When one is very anxious to preach, that is advancement.

Akṣayānanda: And if one is not very anxious to preach, he is not very advanced.

Prabhupāda: Then he should stick to Deity worship very nicely. Following the rules and regulations, cleansing. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛìgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. This nitya, you take very seriously.

Akṣayānanda: And then when he becomes advanced....

Prabhupāda: Automatically he will be anxious to preach. Automatically.

Akṣayānanda: Ultimately.

Prabhupāda: Not ultimately. Automatically. Just like in a small time, our, that Kṛṣṇa dāsa? He knows English, he knows French, he knows... What does it mean? He has heard it. Now he'll want to speak. That is the natural sequence. If anyone has listened from the authority about Kṛṣṇa, he wants to speak again. That is preaching. Not that "I have listened about Kṛṣṇa, that's all right." No. When he wants to speak to others, that is advancement. That is wanted. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. That is the test that he has advanced. Nāma, rūpa, guṇa, līlā (indistinct).

Devotee: Does he have to speak immediately, or he can speak after some time.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not immediately. Immediately how you can speak. Unless he knows, what he'll speak? It is better not to speak than speaking all nonsense. He must learn first of all what is the philosophy, what is the science. Then he can speak. (break)

Vipramukhya:. These Turks are yavanas? Demons and yavanas?

Prabhupāda: Materially there are so many divisions, but spiritual they are all servant of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is yavana, nobody is brāhmaṇa. Everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. We are going there not to make the yavanas a brāhmaṇa. That is not our mission. Our business is... We know that he is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, he's thinking himself as Turkish, as Muhammadan, as Jewish, as Christian. This is his disease. So let me cure his disease. Why he should be called yavana? That is artificial. He's Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Jivera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. Just like when a physician treats a patient, does he think that here is a Christian, here is a Muhammadan, here is a Hindu? He takes as patient. Never mind what he is. And he gives treatment. He never thinks that here is a Christian patient, here is a Muhammadan patient. He is patient. Give me this, bring him medicine. That is physician's business. Why should we consider, "Here is a Christian patient. He should be treated differently than the Muhammadan." Does he think like that? Does he think? Does any physician honestly think that "Here is a Christian patient, special care should be taken for him?" No. If he is physician, he should give the equal treatment to everyone.

Room Conversation                               September 6, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                        462566

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus.

Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations.

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat."There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything. Any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, Parataram. Para-taram. Tara is used--superlative. If our men become serious to distribute... Of course it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know. There is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money he can purchase it

 

Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru.

Akṣayānanda: From intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet. Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authority. Then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving. Gnowgnowgnow gnowgnow (makes machine sound). (Laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it.

Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes. How to wash the cloth. If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash cloth. By beating only? Sufficient?

Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not... You require everything, but because you are spending without any sense... So I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā, will require five hundred rupees per month.

 

Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa, vipralipsa. Bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karuṇātmikā.(?) So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think "How I can cheat you. How can I cheat you." That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer.

Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law.

Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer but their business is to break the law.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer.

Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated because we ourselves will not cheat anymore.

Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Sate sattvaṁ samācaret. You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist.

Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right, but this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer.

Akṣayānanda: You lose everything.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vaïcaka-vaïcī. Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say that one is cheater, another is cheated.

Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English... What is it? Set a thief to catch a thief. The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing.

Prabhupāda: Set a fish?

Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief.

Prabhupāda: Thief, oh yes. You can reply him... (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome.

Akṣayānanda: Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to..., you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Bāla means children. Vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā. Beginning from the child up to the old man, and... But coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasāda and place, but be advanced. And the simple method is recommended,

yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyāṁ

kṛṣṇe parama-pūruṣe

bhaktir utpadyate puṁsaḥ

śoka-moha-bhayāpahā

Very simple. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām. Simply hear Bhāgavatam. And actually if anyone seriously reads Bhāgavatam, he'll become saintly, no doubt about it.

Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata. There are no others actually.

Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva. I am simply trying to explain, that's all.

Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it.

Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither... Even they... They know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that if it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauòīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place. (break) And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace.

                                                                                                                                                                        462710

Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well. That outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals, they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something. If you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also to Vṛndāvana more than one year or two. Huh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years.

Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years.

Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking the fools and rascals the Americans are. I shall introduce. (Hindi) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something. (Hindi) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiïcanasya. Niṣkiïcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiïcana. Kiï-cana means something and niḥ means not. Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat. (Hindi) Temporary or useless. So this material world is... Temporary we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go, let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā. (Hindi) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā, ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say one feet above his head. And the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually this man is sitting on my... As soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage, myrage? There is no water.

Harikeśa: Mirage.

Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water. It appears there is water, and the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiïcana. Niṣkiïcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiïcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it... Just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked. So generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and..." So cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall? No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then she did not try to save the cloth. She said, "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose? At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably." Then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something." Take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. Prāpaïcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ phalgu vairāgyam kathyate. Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Things which are connected to Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. (Hindi) Jagāi Mādhāi... Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that you make this nothing, this sinful activity, then I accept you. They promised, "Yes." (Hindi) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ." (Hindi) What is your ambition? What is the ambition? Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company. There must be some ambition.

Éśvara Candra: I want to take care of my family what...

Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca... These things I have explained. That we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that I shall take care of my family. But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kata bāccā? Four (Hindi) Separate. No more together. (Hindi) Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛpaṇa, brāhmaṇa, kṛpaṇa, tṛpyanti neha. He knows that one bāccā has given me so much trouble. Illicit or legal, (Hindi) it is troublesome business. Otherwise why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child. They don't want to take the botheration. (Hindi) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. The kṛpaṇa (Hindi) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. Because he's kṛpaṇa, he's never satisfied. He's suffering--again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? The kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa. One has to become brāhmaṇa. The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed, brāhmaṇa. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. So (Hindi) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like... Give him prasāda. (Break) ...these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They have been described, it is just like... Of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still... So it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇòūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa. Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī. That is tapasya. Tapasya means brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena. This is tapasya. It is very strong power, this... Therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujām. This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nations. And what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs. Go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi..., big hog. So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nations? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī?"

Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it?

Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can. Everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs? Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī..." They'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method, and naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. Now you convert your, you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa. They'll make propaganda. "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sari, nice,--one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally, her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice. Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen years old boy, he does not... He is roughly dressed, he does not... But a sixteen year old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that she is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me, it is my duty, I am guardian. Give her some good shelter. This is Hindu process.

Aksayananda: Perfectly natural

Prabhupada: Very natural

Aksayananda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural

Prabhupada: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well wisher of the children. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Krsna consciousness, everything will be adjusted.

                                                                                                                                                                              462741

Prabhupāda: The Kali-yuga is... The material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the... Just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs, they are using their sex.

Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been...

Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken.

Akṣayānanda: Sterilized.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex.

Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals.

Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know.

Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious, "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life.

                                                                                                                                                                        462707

....So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully.

Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from Bhāgavatam.

Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also.

Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the books, it is already tactful. Yasyāṁ śrūyamāṇāyāṁ kṛṣṇe parama-pūruṣe, bhaktir utpadyate puṁsaḥ śoka-moha-bhayāpahā. Now they are in a position of śoka-moha-bhaya. So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya. It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya. But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya. So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya, they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto, ārto. Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta, śoka-moha-bhaya. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take provided he is sukṛtina, if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina.

Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear.

Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom.

Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide.

Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh.

Akṣayānanda: So many, I know I have spoken with them. And myself included.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use.

Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the...

Hari-śauri: Skyscraper.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower. From the bridge.

Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen.

Harikeśa: Berkeley.

Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes.

Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can...

Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system, (indistinct), fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan (?) it is called.

 

Mind, always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organize so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure…If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something and my necessities... So if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to city?" That they can have very easily. If they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that "Your first necessity is food." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant.

 

It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saìkīrtana, and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come--ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If he simply becomes little sober that "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away? Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. Only by devotion. Not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti. If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa the questions will be solved automatically. And they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction. Ceto-darpaṇa.

 

Very good life. Very good life. The village life. Provided he has got proper engagement.

 

So two person, say one-fourth kg., one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas. And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there. He can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and... Just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap. I have seen it. And fresh.

 

Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy. Everything very cheap.

 

Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya.(?) This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization.

 

Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas, and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king?

 

Third-class, fourth-class men, dressed like President and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow.

 

...Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on.

 

One kingdom, one ruling, one culture, Vedic culture. Gradually we're losing... The culture is lost and anyone is doing as he likes. No king, no ruling. Therefore chaotic condition.

 

Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

                                                                                                                                      

We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing.

 

And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. That you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you get sufficient food there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied. Animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā.

 

Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture.

Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our mission. That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all.

 

 

And they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda.

 

When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat." The meat-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage, girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate... So many things. They should be exposed. And there is no harm exposing, in truth.

 

 

They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the Christian has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Kristo, there is Greek word and Kristo, is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is, one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is come Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa.

 

He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone.

 

We want two favours. One from guru, one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favour.

 

This I want to introduce, let them be satisfied whatever they can produce themselves locally. What is that, little cloth, little food? Any man can produce these things. There is no difficulty at all. They must agree to this simple life. Otherwise, everywhere you can produce your own food and cloth and cottage…And they should be satisfied, happy with Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful. This I want to introduce now, anywhere. And it is practical. It is not something bogus. It is... We have already experimented. By God's grace we can produce everything from the lands, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī? You can get everything. If they are satisfied with this simple life, then they save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and happy life.

 

Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi…Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows.

 

So we have to train like that, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things.

 

Now we are getting so much land. We can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this. Therefore reject him"--no, engage him in some other...

 

You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God.

 

We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be... Everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything solved…Kṛṣṇa said in the Bhagavad-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?"

 

So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. Read it.

Hari-śauri:

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

"All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajïa, sacrifice, and yajïa is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties.

 

A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved…But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth-class, sixth-class, up to tenth-class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture?

 

Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grains. When they are uncivilized--there is no food; they do not know how to grow food--they can eat animal in the jungle.

Meat-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya. But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya. He never says, "Pig rakṣya." You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that "These Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow."

 

So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world.

 

That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. Then it will be very nice. It is not... Simply take the people in your favor; the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy. So you can do it. You become president. You become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts...

 

Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a brāhmaṇa, he must be a kṣatriya, he must be a śūdra-- everything. All-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise he is neither a brāhmaṇa, neither a śūdra, neither a... Yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā. Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist--He is everything, not one-sided.

 

Yes, our "plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea.

 

...capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communists, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anybody's paid and if he cannot, dismiss or... Yes. This bureaucracy is not... Train him. Train him.

 

There will be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains, not only food grains, other things also. Sarva-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. This mahī, when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall.

 

Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position.

 

Later on. First of all grow vegetable. Let us eat first of all. Immediately grow vegetables sufficient. And this is good idea, we shall do that, but first of all let us organize the vegetables, fruits.

 

Simply salt and lemon juice. Cut some pieces into half and soak it in lemon juice and put sufficient salt. In due course it will be very nice, thick. Very digestible.

 

We are not for arts. We are simply bare necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately.

 

To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class, a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras.

 

If you stop kīrtana, then it is ordinary.

 

This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile.

Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles.

 

No, no, if he lives, then he will subscribe. Saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ…Let them come here, live peacefully, eat sumptuously, get all the other necessities of life and become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

 

If you are God conscious, then you must give. Suppose you are here. If I invite you, then I'll ask you, "Sir, how can I serve you?" If you say, "Give me this kind of food," then that is real service.

 

They have left the city life. So I want to organize that here also. We have already one in Navadvīpa. The devotees are there. They are having their own cloth, own food, own milk, residence, and chanting. That's all.

 

Guest (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection."

Guest (8): They should be given?

Prabhupāda: Given protection. If Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya... He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow.

Guest (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to expose of the body?

Prabhupāda: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the cāmāras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters, that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?"

 

If you enjoy sex life for sense enjoyment, that is atrocity. That is atrocity. That is Vedic civilization.

 

Go to your father. Mām eti. Therefore this is the way of eternity, that you understand who is your father and you go back to Him. Then his life is successful. And who is the father?

 

…The earth is the mother. That is a fact. Now we should be intelligent, that simply mother cannot beget a child. There must be father. So who is that father? The answer is here. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā…That yes, earth is mother, because everything is coming from earth. But who has given the seed in the mother?

 

The father says, "I am the father." You are searching after the father, and father says, and mother certifies, "Yes, He is your father." You don't require any other knowledge.

 

At last He says, "Surrender to Me." He is not asking him to surrender all of a sudden.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The formula is there. Read it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY SEVEN

Garden Conversation(2)                           September 7, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     436006

Hari-śauri: Police, ambulance, fires.

Prabhupāda: How the city life is attractive we cannot understand.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) Ask him. He's always telling us how New York is the best place in the world.

Prabhupāda: You were born in New York?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: That is mother and... (laughter) Jananī jana. (Sanskrit) Any rotten place, but birthplace has got some attraction.

Harikeśa: I feel perfectly at home there.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Just like when I go to Calcutta. Therefore a sannyāsī is forbidden to live in his native place. There will be attraction. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never returned to Navadvīpa. (break) ...no striking six o'clock. Did you mark it?

 

Room Conversation                                September 12, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     463356

Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a program, village (break) ...in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia, (indistinct), they... Therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory-wallas, they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam, then... One must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind, always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organize so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure.

Lokanātha: If they add the holy name to their lives, they will...

Prabhupāda: Yes. If they could understand that. That will be helpful if you chant. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something and my necessities... So if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to city?" That they can have very easily. If they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that "Your first necessity is food." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant. Because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tire. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after being tired, he requires some wine. And why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting "Go to the village" they will go?

Lokanātha: Just a propaganda.

Prabhupāda: No, they're thinking that so many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them? That's a problem. After all government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. That's a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saìkīrtana, and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come--ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If he simply becomes little sober that "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away? Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. Only by devotion. Not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti. If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa the questions will be solved automatically. And they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction. Ceto-darpaṇa.

 

Prabhupāda: Very good life. Very good life. The village life. Provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop.

Caraṇāravindam: Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali-yuga where there's no sacrifice?

Prabhupāda: What is that sacrifice?

Caraṇāravindam: Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's, everything's so disturbed?

Prabhupāda: Whether you're not eating?

Lokanātha: He says there is no yajïa, sacrifice, people are not performing, that is why they are into the trouble.

Prabhupāda: This is yajïa. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saìkīrtana-yajïa. Those who have cow dung, they cannot. One who has got brain substance. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. And alpa-medhasa. The two words.

Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara is having fever but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever but...

Prabhupāda: Who will go?

Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is another word. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ. Tad bhavati... Alpa-medha and su-medhasa. These two words we get from the śāstra. Those who are alpa-medhasa, they want to bring... Just like in name, Gītā-yajïas. There is no yajïa. They are manufacturing some ideas. Because other yajïas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajïika-brāhmaṇa, there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajïa. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. This is quotation from Bhāgavata. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... this yajïa. Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajïa. First class yajïa, recommended.

 

Room Conversation                                  September 16, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                   463607

Prabhupāda: All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert manager. Even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert, must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) So she can give me the fruits now. So... (break) ...intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status.

Haṁsadūta: To kill India's spiritual status?

Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord McCauley. His report was, he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. He reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle.

Haṁsadūta: Imperceptibly they introduced this.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. (break) ...educated persons they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders.

Haṁsadūta: No encouragement.

Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, "Discovery of India." You know that? He has... It is little popular. "Discovery of India." So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized. Industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything.

Harikeśa: Abortion.

Prabhupāda: Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were. They were. Simple. If one has five rupees income per month he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family. If he has got five rupees income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one-fourth kg., one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas. And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there. He can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and... Just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap. I have seen it. And fresh.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house and he's growing vegetables like squash, chilis, and some spinage, spinach?

Haṁsadūta: Spinach, śāka.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And...

Haṁsadūta: Eggplant.

Prabhupāda: Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport. Big scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking and printing paper money and exploit.

Haṁsadūta: We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say, "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local...

Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana?

Hari-śauri: Drumsticks.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is a scheme.

Prabhupāda: A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign and paper money he's attracting. All production. And they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything, milk, vegetables, fish, everything, this chānā. Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy. Everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they (have) millions of population. They are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money and they take. This is modern civilization.

Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged.

Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the... They sent me some presentation in a huge package.

Haṁsadūta: Consequently those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged.

Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass.

Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya.(?) This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization.

 

Room Conversation                                September 17, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     463369

Sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā. Where this class of literature is now. Yathā sūtyām, in the maternity home or maternity room, Sūtyām. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ. The astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan. They said that "This child will be like this"--exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas, and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king?

Hari-śauri: There're no kings.

Prabhupāda: Where is that President? They're all drunkards, woman-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction, he became a young man and he was entrusted the kingdom, "Now you rule." (chants verse)

tataḥ parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā

mahīṁ mahā-bhāgavataḥ śaśāsa ha

yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ

samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā

Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that.

Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (chants first line of another verse) (break) ...ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liìga. Dressed like king. Nṛpa-liìga-dharam, but śūdra. Nṛpa-liìga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. Very expert in cow-killing.

Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction.

Prabhupāda: Third-class, fourth-class men, dressed like President and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. 1965, 17 September, I landed at Boston.

Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then.

Devotee: Changed the world.

Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                September 26, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     463648

Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start... (break) ...took from my friends, I collected some money and... So other important members said, "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do, when time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...sei hetu pracāra. One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say.

 

Garden Conversation                                   October 9, 1976, Aligarh                                                            464025

Prabhupāda: Every father loves his son. Therefore this is contradictory. He is blind, but he has called... (microphone rattling)

Indian: He has no locana.

Prabhupāda: And he has called Padma-locana. Similarly, this harijana movement is a farce because they remain the Cāmāra and Bhangis, and still they are called harijana. The same thing. No locana, but padma-locana. Everyone has got right. You can become the most advanced devotee. There is no hindrance. But they must be trained up as harijana. Not that artificially you simply rubberstamp harijana. Therefore that movement is failure. We have no objection to make anyone... Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Pāpa-yoni, lower class. Janma-aiśvarya-śruta-śrī, these four things, to take birth in high class family, janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich, and śruta, to become very learned scholar, and śrī, beautiful, these four things are there whose background is pious life. Otherwise, not possible. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī. So those who are just the opposite--means not born in very high class family, not... They say "accident." No, it is not accident. According to śāstra, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa, there is superior examination. Yamarāja is there. Now, this man is now dead, this soul is now changing body. What kind of body he'll get next? That is judged by the superior authority. Just like in the office a person is promoted. So his record is examined, how he has worked honestly to the interest of the establishment. All this consideration. Then he's given increment of salary or promotion to higher post. This is common sense. So it is not accident. A man is born from the very beginning, a rich man's son. That does not mean that it is accident. Daiva-netreṇa. By a superior arrangement he is given the chance to take birth in a aristocratic family or rich family or educated family or in a beautiful family. There is... But this is, so far it is concerned, it is body, and our movement, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is not of the body. Body is superfluous. It is spiritual movement. Kṛṣṇa therefore begins, asmin dehe, dehī. This body is external. Just like dress. We are having this dress. I am not this dress. I am within the dress. Similarly, the spirit soul is within this body, and spiritual movement means about that spirit soul. Not of this body. So that spirit soul is completely different from this body and... Just like a gentleman is gentleman. One may have a different type of dress. Not that everyone is expected of the same dress. But within the dress, a gentleman is gentleman. Similarly, although there are so many varieties of bodies, within the body the soul is pure part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So the spiritual movement means to take up the spirit soul within the body and to elevate him from the conditioned life. That is spiritual movement. He has been put into condition. So that action can be taken without any hindrances. Without any impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. That verse I was speaking yesterday, that without any cause, without any impediments, the soul can be raised by the process. Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Never mind one is born in low class family, poor, ugly, uneducated family. It doesn't matter. But he can be raised. What is the process? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. "One has to take shelter of Me." That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. We are giving equal chance everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Pāpa-yoni means low class, poor, uneducated, ugly, no education. That is pāpa-yoni. So they can be raised. Kṛṣṇa says. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. If he is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore it is the topmost welfare activities in the human society. Anyone can be raised. There are different grades of life all over the world. Some are black, some are white, some are ugly, some are poor. Varieties. Some are trees, some are plants, some are aquatics, some are birds, beasts, insects. Different varieties of life, 8,400,000. Some of them demigods, Brahmā, Indra, Candra. Very, very powerful. Just like this sun, that is also a planet, and the chief person is the sun-god Vivasvān. We get all this information. There is. These rascals, they do not know what are these planets, what are the arrangement. They are exactly like this planet. Just like here also, we have got president. It is expected, one president or one king in one planet. That was formerly. On this planet there was one king. The Pāṇòavas, up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Five thousand years ago. One king of the whole world. One kingdom, one ruling, one culture, Vedic culture. Gradually we're losing... The culture is lost and anyone is doing as he likes. No king, no ruling. Therefore chaotic condition. Otherwise, according to God's plan, every planet there is one chief person ruling. So in the sun there is a person. His name is given in the Bhagavad-gītā. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. His name is Vivasvān. And his son is Vaivasvata Manu. Vivasvān manave prāha. These things are there. And his son, Ikṣvāku. And from Ikṣvāku, the kṣatriya-vaṁśa... In India still, the kṣatriyas are known, two dynasties, one from sun, one from the moon. Candra-vaṁśa, Sūrya-vaṁśa. Still, they are. So the kṣatriyas are coming. One dynasty is coming from the sun, another... So moon is not desert. These are simply rascals. They do not know anything, and rascals believe that the moon is desert, and the sun is desert. Only this planet is full of variety and beauty. No. We have to take lessons from the śāstras. So anyone can be raised to the highest platform. Caṇòālo 'pi dvija-śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇa.(?) Even one is born as caṇòāla... Caṇòāla means less than the śūdras. The dog-eaters. Caṇòālas. Śva-paca. They are called śva-paca. Śva means dog and paca means cooker. One who cooks the... There are still so many. In Korea, in China, in Hong Kong. They eat dogs.

Indian man: They consider it a delicacy. I had a German priest staying with me last year and he was telling me that he had wonderful soup. And when he found out what was the soup, he said, "Well, didn't you see the puppy that was going about this morning? It is soup of the same puppy."

Prabhupāda: In Hong Kong. Yes. In Hong Kong you won't find street dogs. They'll eat them. So in India also there are dog-eaters. In Assam you'll find. They make kukura-piṭhā. Kukura-piṭhā means that first of all the dog is given to eat some rice preparation with gur [Indian brown sugar]. And pushing, pushing. When he dies, then it is roasted. Then that is very good food. (laughter) Kukura-piṭhā. The Assamese, they eat. There are different nations. Śva-paca, this word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca. This śva-pāke means this caṇòāla. One who eats a dog. Śva-pāke ca paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. So everyone can be raised to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. So from early in the morning He is teaching. Udilo aruṇa pūraba-bhāge dwija-maṇi gorā amani jāge. He was not lazy. He was very busy. From early in the morning. So if we at least pretend to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we cannot sleep. We must rise early in the morning. If you want to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there is no question of sleeping in the morning. One must get up at least one and a half hours before the sunrise. That is maìgala-ārati. Maìgala-ārati means to get up early in the morning, take your bath, and be prepared for the maìgala-ārati. Then begin your chanting, prayer. This is activity. It is not... Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a lazy life. It is not lazy life. All Kṛṣṇa conscious… Rama conscious, they are very busy. To speak, even the Hanuman, Jambavan, Angada, they are monkeys, still how they were busy, from the history we find, to serve Krsna, Ramacandra. Hare Krsna. I was questioned by some gentleman sometimes in 1940. He charged that the Vaisnava, "This Vaisnava means a lazy fellow." He said like that. (laughs) So I said, "You have never seen a Vaisnava." I told him, "You have never seen a Vaisnava." "No, I have seen these Vaisnavas. They do not do anything and taking mala and pretending to be very highly elevated and sleep and snore." That's... You have seen... "But you have not seen. You might have seen these pseudo-Vaisnavas, but real Vaisnava you have not seen." "What is that real Vaisnava?" And I said that in India there were two big wars. One war was the Rama-Ravana, and another war Kuruksetra. So in these two wars, the hero is Vaisnava. One is Hanuman and another is Arjuna. Have you seen them? Have you heard about them? Are they lazy fellows? Hanuman is Vaisnava. He could raise one mountain and jump over the sea and set fire in the very beautiful state of Ravana. This is Vaisnava. This is Vaisnava. And Arjuna, he was in the beginning hesitating that "My cousin-brothers, the other side..." (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      October 9, 1976, Aligarh                                                           464050

Hari-śauri: What's the Hindi name of that drug that you were taking the other day? That plant?

Prabhupāda: Oh. Ghṛta-kumārī.

Hari-śauri: You can get some of that?

Indian man: I have not heard.

Hari-śauri: Ghṛta-kumārī. Looks like a cactus. The English name is aloe vera.

Indian man: Which has got pulp? Yes. You want it? I have got it in my house. My wife takes them by making in the cāpāṭi, or paraṭā, because of her knees. It is wonderful for this pains in the knees. Yes.

Hari-śauri: We were told it was good for relieving high blood pressure and clearing the...

Indian man: Relieving high blood pressure, best is garlic.

Prabhupāda: Garlic.

Indian man: Garlic, you don't want it. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Garlic, onions, prohibited.

Hari-śauri: But if you could get some of this Ghṛta-kumārī...

Prabhupāda: It is there in his house.

Indian man: Yes, it is in my house, it is in my garden. So my wife will prepare for your breakfast. Small cāpāṭi. You will find it very tasty and delicious. That's called Gwaraka-pata. (Hindi) Gwaraka-pata. Gwaraka. I will show you.

 

Press Interview                                        October 16, 1976, Chandigarh                                                       464227

Interviewer: Sir, who initiated you into this movement?

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja. You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here here. Haṁsadūta has it right here.

Prabhupāda: He asked me to do this.

Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda.

Interviewer: Has he a seat here in India?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Founder of the Gauòīya Math.

Prabhupāda: He is the founder of Gauòīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man; let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the... I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years. At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of, when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966 I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that.

Interviewer: What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers.

Interviewer: But does that not mean because they are rich they can afford religion.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the... Because you are... We have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual beings. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual.

Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?

Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

                                                                                                                                                                        464329

Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing.

                                                                                                                                                                        464340

Prabhupāda: We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection.

Interviewer: Which are those areas?

Prabhupāda: West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans, and where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that.

Interviewer: So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating, people who are eating beef? What is bad about it?

Prabhupāda: Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are...

Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. That you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you get sufficient food there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied. Animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Interviewer: Sir, in the modern technological...

Prabhupāda: Modern, we are not talking of modern or... We're talking...

Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture.

Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our mission. That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times food stuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land... Just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up... They are not given anything to eat. There is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. The recommended process in the Bhagavad-gītā, that annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam; go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The, according to Bhagavad-gītā, this is the business of the vaiśyas. The brāhmaṇas, they should be very much highly educated, enligthened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas, they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas, they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya, śūdras, they can help. That's all. This is their.... Then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect.

Room Conversation                                 October 26, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                         464366                                   

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar muṣaka bhava, you know the whole story? A muṣaka, a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person. "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came. "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to... Then again he came. "Still, they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the... "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he became mouse. That's all.

Hari-śauri: The perfect example.

Devotee: Now he looks like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish.

Prabhupāda: He harassed. "He has not increased my..." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī, why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here. Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble.

Hari-śauri: Faultfinding.

Prabhupāda: The bābājīs, they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs, the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma. This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong. And they are making... And they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda.

Hari-śauri: That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra.

Prabhupāda: Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy. "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end)

 

Room Conversation                                November 2, 1976, Vrindaban                                                        464724

Prabhupāda: How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not (know) how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, that's... When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat." The meat-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage, girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate... So many things. They should be exposed. And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistri, just like so many mistris, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇòita has given the formula of civilization, three words: matṛvat para dāreṣu. Where is that civilization? To consider every woman as mother. Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be, otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Matṛvat para dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, other's property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization....

                                                                                                                                                                        

 

                                                                                                                                                                        464769

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are... That has been expressed by this gentleman that it is going like epidemic. They must (indistinct). That is their feeling. That Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some steps. That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said...

Hari-śauri: Yes, psychiatrist...

Prabhupāda: ...that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? (about Hari-śauri:) He has also expressed. What is that?

Hari-śauri: There's a psychiatrist (indistinct). Sydney city council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether and they took us to court and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they, they worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try and get rid of us and it didn't work. And one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street? So he said, "Basically it's because the city-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. So this whole western civilization is threatened.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat-eating...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking.

Prabhupāda: Then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said... Not only that, one Sir Valentine Chiro (?), I think, Sir Valentine Chiro, British, important, when Gandhi started non-cooperation. So he remarked that "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked at that time, that if one percent of the Indian people non-cooperate then we are, our British empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that this movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What they're doing now, these parents are getting in contact with devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that ah... Some, one gentleman came to see me "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat-eating, this cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of the country.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means it will continue. Young men they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the--what is called?--the foundation of material civilization in the western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my godbrothers, that "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one(?)." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sudāmā Swami is in New York.

Hari-śauri: Sudāmā Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Ha! And whole situation is threatened. Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that?

Hari-śauri: That play.

Prabhupāda: Play.

Hari-śauri: Kali.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa. (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so-called religious movements like ours and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped.

Prabhupāda: The young men should form another party, all the American young men.

Haṁsadūta: Viṣṇu party.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics.

Haṁsadūta: You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties, the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them...

Haṁsadūta: Form a Viṣṇu party.

Prabhupāda: That ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they could never stop it, I mean... they could just...

Prabhupāda: No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If, had it been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating! It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogis, they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending in (indistinct), "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate and he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that... In the Bhagavad-gītā before meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. They should be half closed and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and huhuh. These rascals are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma (indistinct). That "I am your guru, I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know this. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows neither his disciple knows. This is going on. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, adharma (indistinct), get a plan, "That I am (indistinct)." That's all. And have it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. I do not know nothing but (indistinct), that's all. All these gurus all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That should, action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing?

Hari-śauri: Mixing

Haṁsadūta: Mixing.

Prabhupāda: Not mixing.

Hari-śauri: (indistinct) together.

Prabhupāda: Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called?

Hari-śauri: Sifting?

Prabhupāda: Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hm. Sifting high grains from the small.

Devotees: Yes. Hm. Hm.

Prabhupāda: The smaller grains they fall down.

Haṁsadūta: Straining.

Prabhupāda: Straining, yes, straining yes, straining. If the straining process no, that's nice.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can get rid of all the bad publicity (indistinct). Every newspaper in America is covering us Rāmeśvara said.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) better, I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa. There is Kṛṣṇa. Every page, there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly that happened in Germany. I told them. "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the Christian has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Kristo, there is Greek word and Kristo, is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is, one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is come Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight, here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid?

 Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we just have to work hard on getting this altogether.

Prabhupāda: You have to fight. Keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara. We should not be afraid to fight. And it is, there are Indians... It is not the Indians (indistinct). Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement. Other so-called yogis swamis, they may be rascal but this is not the rascaldom. It is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying, they are saying we are not Hindus.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying this is not Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: Hindus, we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if...

Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇans.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said, that Hindu God but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community. Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why he should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty four million..., eighty, eighty, eight million four hundred thousands, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are inluded but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bal Gopal. He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa dcoes not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Pāpa-yonayaḥ, so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His.... Devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī... Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not.... We embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Mohammedans, they.... We embrace everyone, and actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus. That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming, all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, this is our movement. Why you should be restricted, to the India, and amongst the Hindus. Our (indistinct) they asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite, you have taken birth in India, that's alright, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra. This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain.... You are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain, (indistinct) how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission. That you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit, go and sleep there. And expose them. Item by item. I know my case is strong.

                                                                                                                                                                        464839

Prabhupāda: No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country, not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. We want two favours. One from guru, one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favour. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterious. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh you are my devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of..." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, we are devotees, non-violent, and let us sleep, that is not... Fight! With all the resources that we have got. That is wanted.

                                                                                                                                                                        464891

Prabhupāda: Ha. So (Hindi). He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange (Hindi). Thank you very much. (pause) Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight! Without fight where is life? If there is no fighting then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He (indistinct) and He fell down from the Yamunā and... Just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming, Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on. Ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull, Dyutiman (?), fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing. You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're (indistinct) fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. (Hindi) The gun, howitzer gun, what is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of, this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais?

Devotees: Calais.

Prabhupāda: Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right.

Guest: Artillery guns?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they... Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side.

Hari-śauri: Big, huge gun.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogi. You see. They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. (Hindi to end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                              November 3, 1976, Vrndavana                                                     465040

Prabhupāda: That is also nasty. Frozen means nasty. I never take frozen. In the beginning I thought, "Oh, it is very nice, you can get fresh vegetable." But they are not at all fresh.

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: All rotten, rather the same vegetable, as we have got in India practice, we dry it and keep it. That is tasteful. In season time--suppose this season there is huge quantity of vegetable--so here the system is they cut into pieces during the season and dry it in the sun and keep it. And during out of season it is soaked in water, it revives the old taste, then you can cook. (Hindi or Bengali)

Devotee (1): Tastes as though it is different. The fresh vegetable the taste is very good.

Prabhupāda: Fresh vegetable must be, but still there is some taste. But this frozen it has no taste.

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Even they have, Indians those who are fish eaters, they keep this dry fish.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, dried fish.

Prabhupāda: They--fresh fish--they smear with turmeric and salt and keep it in the sunshine and they dry it. And of course this fish it has no, what is it taste. (laughter) But they keep it. (aside) Bring me little water. (Bengali and Hindi) This I want to introduce, let them be satisfied whatever they can produce themselves locally. What is that, little cloth, little food? Any man can produce these things. There is no difficulty at all. They must agree to this simple life. Otherwise, everywhere you can produce your own food and cloth and cottage. If possible you can construct big buildings. There is no need. And they should be satisfied, happy with Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful. This I want to introduce now, anywhere. And it is practical. It is not something bogus. It is... We have already experimented. By God's grace we can produce everything from the lands, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī? You can get everything. If they are satisfied with this simple life, then they save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and happy life. In India they don't require even cottage. One katiya (?) is sufficient. Keeping in one place and lay down. Eight months, at least six months, it is very nice. At night, even in daytime it is very hot, at night it is cool. So you have got very good sleep, soothing, then you become refreshed in the morning. If you have got good sleep at night, then you become refreshed, your health is regained. Hm? If I (indistinct), take morning snāna and cāpāṭi. During very hot season they don't take even cāpāṭi. They take some fruits, guava and this... What is called that? (Hindi)

Devotee (2): That? Melon.

Prabhupāda: Melon, yes. During hot season you get watermelon, this other melon.

Hari-śauri: Honeydew melon.

Prabhupāda: Honeydew melon, oh very nice. In the upcountries still in the village during daytime they don't eat. During daytime they take some fruits and at night when it is cool, the cool ah, refreshing air, they make some cāpāṭi. One time, is it not?

Devotee (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Eh, (Hindi) In that night because in daytime it is so hot, it is embarrassing to cook and to digest also. Better take food, ah, fruit, this melon, and at night they take 3 or 4 cāpāṭis according to the... And good sleep. Very happy life it was, all over India. There was no question of poverty. People did not know what is poverty and now it is poverty. They do not get even sufficient food.

Hari-śauri: Industrialization.

Prabhupāda: Ugra-karma. I don't like industrialism.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 Vrndavana, November 5, 1976                                                       465420

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is brāhmaṇa. No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.

                                                                                                                                                                        465428

Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi.

Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts?

Prabhupāda: No, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth.

Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account.

Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According... One Englishman used to say, "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra... Actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that?

Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.

Bhagatji: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras.

Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.

Bhagatji: Varṇa-saìkara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them... Like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, a little hard work.

Jagadīśa: (name withheld) is another problem.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: (name withheld), (name withheld)'s boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy.

Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable...

Bhagatji: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jagadīśa: He likes dung.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows.

Bhagatji: But he's not in Gurukula. How can you send him? He is with (father's name withheld). (father name withheld) left him for five days. (father name withheld) is keeping him.

Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas, for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required.

Bhagatji: He is not interested in education, not at all.

Prabhupāda: No, no education... That is waste of... For such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes.

Bhagatji: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary."

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do the school work nicely?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and...

Prabhupāda: Well, japa... Whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful. What to speak of children? Japa, children cannot... That should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should... But not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No.

Jagadīśa: You've often said the first-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas, second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas...

Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things.

Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa-karma.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable. You should engage him. And we must have all departments of work--the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly, and legs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that... One must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable engage him, like that. That is required, not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula, but if he is not suitable... Gurukula, this... So far character is con..., that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the... What is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows and grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt.

Bhagatji: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagatji: How to mend from lies?

Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells? Don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land. We can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this. Therefore reject him"--no, engage him in some other...

 

Room Conversation                                 Vrndavana, November 6, 1976                                                       465517

Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good or should he just leave those alone?

Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no, this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died.

Dr. Kneupper: No.

Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God.

                                                                                                                                                                        465673

Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be... Everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru. Kṛṣṇa said in the Bhagavad-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is... (break) ...if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. That is also stated. So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād.

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

The formula is there. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Annāt, a-n-n-a-t. Get this light there on.

Jagadīśa: This one?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. Read it.

Hari-śauri:

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

"All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajïa, sacrifice, and yajïa is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction, "Here is a butcher; here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth-class, third man, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first-class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth-class. If you say that "You become first-class," they will laugh. "What is the use of becoming first-class?" First-class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something...

Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda.

Jagadīśa: It's on.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say, "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ, self-controlled. If I say, "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh, that "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, saralatā, simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas.

Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that?

Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like, that "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple, and controlling the mind, controlling... These are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth-class. And the second-class man, kṣatriya?

Hari-śauri:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas."

Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya. Now, who is kṣatriya? A fourth-class man, he never seen battlefield and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya. Where is that kṣatriya? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya. There is no brāhmaṇa. And there is no vaiśya. What is the vaiśya?

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam.

Prabhupāda: Hm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third-class. That means all fourth-class, fifth-class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth, fifth, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class... There are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. There are so many. In the human civilized... Civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth-class, up to tenth-class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth-class, sixth-class, up to tenth-class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, that means... So that is coming. And I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first-class brain that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men.

Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce...

Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they... But even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the... Actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' son, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the, raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that "We are eating. What is the use of going to..." But these rascals have no brain that "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be...?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Tag wande gao(?) (Bengali) There is a Bengali proverb, tag wande gao(?), that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is... At the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante... Find out this, seventh... Because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        465713

Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the...

Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        465741

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be. Knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American. It doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background, but they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grains. When they are uncivilized--there is no food; they do not know how to grow food--they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient... Everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing.

Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should not eat meat?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... Meat-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya. But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya. He never says, "Pig rakṣya." You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that "These Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother? You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first-class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children."

                                                                                                                                                                        465760

Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity?

Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say, "Christian," immediately the question is, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that?

Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah, Protestants, Methodists, Catholics...

Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad-gītā, there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question.

Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them.

Prabhupāda: 99%, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ? And still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this ism, that ism, that ism. First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept?

Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad-gītā, I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time?

Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their...

Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore, I say, the whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says, "Thou shall not kill." Why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad-gītā, welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūòha. Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on.

Dr. Kneupper: Even though they are sincere...

Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukula, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so-called bad education. I inquired from your state secretary that "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness--what is God? You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said, "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but they write, "In God We Trust," is it not?

Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now, how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash.

 

Room Conversation                                 November 11, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     465868

Prabhupāda: So I saw that one, that Mr. Maiman (?), he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I asked, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever that." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhati?

Hari-śauri: Probably still upstairs.

Prabhupāda: Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity.

Hari-śauri: Just fried or...

Prabhupāda: No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's... (break)

Antardhyāna: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me?

Antardhyāna: No, everybody's going to die.

Prabhupāda: So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he... Everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success.

Manīṣā: (Antardhyāna's daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen?

Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe. He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa and very rich family. So I have to go.

Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Don't be worried.

Antardhyāna: She is worried Prabhupāda, about...

Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die.

Antardhyāna: She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Manīṣā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body.

Antardhyāna: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Manīṣā: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Manīṣā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 November 13, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     465899

Prabhupāda: ...devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) ...civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized.

Devotee (1): I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents... They make it a big social...

Prabhupāda: They allow the children sit down. They take soda water and the father-mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin...

Hari-śauri: My father used to... Every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get..., we'd be given a glass of beer.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Father-mother take... Because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why...?" Therefore they say, "Brainwash. This Swamiji is controlling their minds and brainwashing." That is their charge. Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical to take out all rubbish things from the... It is called membrane?

Pradyumna: Cerebrum?

Prabhupāda: Cereb?

Hari-śauri: Cerebral.

Prabhupāda: Cere... Not... It is all gobar. Take out. (pause)

                                                                                                                                                                        465918

Prabhupāda: Take prasādam, see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā. (pause) That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. Then it will be very nice. It is not... Simply take the people in your favor; the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy. So you can do it. You become president. You become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts... What about this new president? Or... Formerly I heard about him that he is religious man.

                                                                                                                                                                        465971

Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent." And similarly, politicians, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros..., cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret.(?) Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a brāhmaṇa, he must be a kṣatriya, he must be a śūdra-- everything. All-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise he is neither a brāhmaṇa, neither a śūdra, neither a... Yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā. Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist--He is everything, not one-sided. So all food is finished?

                                                                                                                                                                        465996

Prabhupāda: Yes, our "plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea.

Hari-śauri: Actually it's the only practical solution.

Jagadīśa: Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jagadīśa: That's how he gained his money.

Surabhi: He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs)

Pradyumna: He started out in the military, he was in the Navy. Then afterwards... His father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. He is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        466001

Prabhupāda: ...capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communists, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Party.

Prabhupāda: It is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right, you can go. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                November 24, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                      466499

Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?

Devotee (1): Christ.

Prabhupāda: Christ. Just see. So write article on this.

Devotee (1): "Krishnian."

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa. This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo, so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally.

                                                                                                                                                                        466578

Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another... If he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be the difficulty? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted, so immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be... And this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody... "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you.

Prabhupāda: So do, do. What is that? Ta...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. We can sit down... Actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves.

Prabhupāda: So go and settle up in that lungi.(?)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda.

Akṣayānanda: I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda.

Devotee (1): Actually, we've been speaking the last few days and these problems can be solved.

Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anybody's paid and if he cannot, dismiss or... Yes. This bureaucracy is not... Train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, prabhu: "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that "prabhu," "such and such prabhu." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way... Now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons.

Akṣayānanda: All those people are here.

Prabhupāda: So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything, so you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. (Hindi) (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 November 25, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                     466595

Prabhupāda: At least once in a month you must be shaven headed.

Akṣayānanda: Actually, we usually shave more.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Akṣayānanda: We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty.

Hari-śauri: We can get very good wigs.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no need. It is simply... That is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat-pant shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi... Russians, they used... That Krushchev I have seen. Bald head.

 

Evening Darsana                                    December 3, 1976, Hyderabad                                                         466636

Prabhupāda: No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only.                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                              466646

Prabhupāda: There will be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains, not only food grains, other things also. Sarva-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. This mahī, when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajïa. And nobody is performing yajïa; therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajïa. And that is very easy in this age. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. You cannot perform the former yajïas by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saìkīrtana, that is yajïa. Therefore you must take to saìkīrtana-yajïa. Yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. It is very easy. (break) ...the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ, with life, arthaiḥ, with money, dhiyā, with intelligence, and vācā, by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so, if he has no money, he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So giving some words, sacrificing some words... Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa... As Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiïcid asti dhanaïjaya, so we have to carry these words, that "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru. Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that "By My order you become a guru." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth, that "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiïcid asti dhanaïjaya. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam. He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru, a real guru. Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Öhākura sings, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position.

hari hari biphale janama goìāinu

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,

āniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

Narottama dāsa Öhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goìāinu, manuṣya-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saìkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Morning Walk and Room Conversation         December 7, 1976, Hyderabad                                                466951

Mahāṁśa: ...plant more trees, orchards for fruits and flowers, flower garden. So there will be plenty of flowers for the altar in Hyderabad every day and for the programs here. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...walking road.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. This road also, we want to extend it all the way to the end of the land.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Mahāṁśa: The same road. That's where the dioramas will be. (break)

Devotee (1): ...having lunch with the cowherd boys on this rocky place and then people can come and sit here also.

 

Prabhupāda: Later on. First of all grow vegetable. Let us eat first of all. Immediately grow vegetables sufficient. And this is good idea, we shall do that, but first of all let us organize the vegetables, fruits. What are these trees?

Mahāṁśa: These are nimbu [lemon] trees which Badrukas have planted and were neglected. They have become very stunted. We dug them out, and we put some cow dung just last, two, three months back. We're going to bring them up, but they will not be very good now. They've already been stunted.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Mahāṁśa: They have been neglected in the beginning, so they have become stunted. So it will help a little by manuring, and some places it has to be grafted and cut off. Some of the trees are good. We get... How many nimbus did we get this year?

Prabhupāda: Make nimbu-ācāra [lemon pickle].

Mahāṁśa: Oh yes, we made... Acyutagaja isn't here. One devotee here, he knows how to make it. He made very nice nimbu-ācāra.

Prabhupāda: Simply salt and lemon juice. Cut some pieces into half and soak it in lemon juice and put sufficient salt. In due course it will be very nice, thick. Very digestible. (break) Not yet utilized. So you have to do that. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        466974

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have never gone to the moon planet. Simply bluff. (break)

Devotee (3): ...this a reflection of the sun or is it his own light?

Prabhupāda: Own light.

Devotee (3): It comes also from the living entities on the moon?

Prabhupāda: No, there are fire, just like there is fire in the sun, but it is covered with ice. Therefore it is cooling.

Devotee (2): You mean ice is covering the fire?

Prabhupāda: Yes, surrounding, cold atmosphere. Something like... But it is fiery. And how they say that sun reflects some dust? Eh? How people believe it? (break) ...to be given in charge some plot of land to develop it.

Mahāṁśa: One problem that could arise by giving them a fixed place, especially giving these labor people, if we give them a fixed place, then tomorrow they may... If they break the principles we may want to remove them.

Prabhupāda: No, you should change every month.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. Because the new phrases by the government is that "Tillers become owners." Whoever tills the land, he becomes...

Prabhupāda: And this society is the society tillers, no individual person.

Mahāṁśa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Society means some combination of some men.

                                                                                                                                                                        466983

Prabhupada: Cow dung can be collected. At least they can be used as cow dung. Here, you should.

 

Mahāṁśa: It's not very good soil but there is... Right around this rocky area there is this... Research people from the central government, they have brought out a grass called Dinanath, lord of the poor, and they say that you can put this grass in the monsoon time, put the seeds in, just plow it and put the seeds and it's a very sturdy grass. It will grow for the whole year. And the cows can graze there.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Mahāṁśa: So this whole area could be with that grass and the cows can graze.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Many temples for kīrtana and around the temple let them live. Yes. All viṣṇumūrti, yes.

Mahāṁśa: How many families should live around...

Prabhupāda: As many possible.

Mahāṁśa: Those who are attracted to that particular Deity.

Prabhupāda: They will be attracted. If you follow this program they will be attracted, prasādam and chanting.

Devotee (5): Especially people in this area, they are attracted to Bālajī.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Devotee (5): They call "Govinda, Govinda," always.

Prabhupāda: Then? They are already devotees.

Devotee (5): They spend their whole year's savings to go to Tirupati.

Prabhupāda: Now let them spend here for the temple.

Mahāṁśa: And live here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be glad.

Mahāṁśa: Then the Tirupati managers will become envious.

Devotee (4): How shall the worship be in the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the small temples. What shall they worship?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you introduce kīrtana.

Devotee (4): Kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: That's all. And whatever they eat must be offered. That's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        467078

Mahāṁśa: They surveyed this whole hundred acres around here, and they said anywhere in this hundred acres, you'll get water. You can dig and you'll get water. This hundred acres has good underground water supply.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mahāṁśa: And the land is very good, this soil here, this black soil, very good for cotton. It is called black cotton soil.

Prabhupāda: So you grow. Cotton requires water?

Mahāṁśa: It requires water. We have to have at least...

Prabhupāda: Paddy and...

Devotee (4): Not as much as paddy.

Mahāṁśa: Not as much as paddy. And sugar cane can grow very well on this also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately grow sugar cane.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because the upper portion of the sugar cane will be fodder for the cows. (break)

Devotee: ...take great care in what they feed their cows. Even though the grasses may be good they grow alfalfa. They make a special feed for them.

Prabhupāda: Hm, they take care because they want to eat.

Mahāṁśa: So the whole taking care is for their own stomach.

Prabhupāda: Yes, for cutting the throat, that's all. There is a Bengali word, toma ya bhalo asa mussulmanera muragī pusa:(?) "Your love is like tending the roast by the Mohammedans." What is called? Roast? They keep...

Haṁsadūta: "Like a Mohammedan loves his chicken."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long it is taken very much care, and then, when it is fatty, cut throat. In this material world the love is like that, for one's own interest, not for the lover's interest.

Hari-śauri: Not love, lust.

Prabhupāda: Hm, yes, it is lust.

                                                                                                                                                                        467181

Devotee (4): The devotees staying here, living here, they may make some pottery, set of potter's wheel, make clay pots.

Prabhupāda: What? What you'll use, pots? Here pottery is very cheap. We are not for arts. We are simply bare necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation                                 December 7, 1976, Hyderabad                                                       467192

Prabhupāda: There is no arrangement for producing vegetable?

Mahāṁśa: We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground.

Prabhupāda: So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait six months for the second.

Mahāṁśa: Now we are designing one plot for continuous...

Prabhupāda: Hm, so this... Where is Tejas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables.

                                                                                                                                                                        467223

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So You have to purchase vegetable and then make a big, big scheme. Bambharambhe(?) laghu-kriyā. Ārambha, very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately.

 

Preparation for Gītā Pratiṣṭhāna             December 9, 1976, Hyderabad                                                        467380

Prabhupāda: Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over-sinful activities, due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān. Those who are devils, who are demons...

Jagadīśa: What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Tān aham.

Jagadīśa: Tān.

Prabhupāda: For the demons. Demons and godless people must be (indistinct), you cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer?

Jagadīśa: They are answering rains. (?)

Prabhupāda: What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot do it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are... You can close this door. (break) ...population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break)

Jagadīśa: Third Chapter.

yajïa-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ

bhuïjate te tv aghaṁ papa ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt

Prabhupāda: So in order to release ourself from the sinful reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajïa. And in this age the easiest process of yajïa is saìkīrtana-yajïa. (long pause) So what are the problem?

Jagadīśa: Under "problems" are... There are some general problems such as taxes.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: Taxes. Taxation.

Prabhupāda: Hm, taxation. So that is... You have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this, there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment because the government is your government. Because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (long pause)

Jagadīśa: Other problems?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: Other problems?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: Race relations.

Prabhupāda: Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) So all problems solved?

Jagadīśa: As far as I'm concerned.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: I can't think of any more major problems. I remember...

Prabhupāda: Problem... As long as you have got this material body you'll have problem.

Jagadīśa: One after another.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead.

Jagadīśa: We have to convince them that they have problems because they think that they're enjoying.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education.

Jagadīśa: They don't know the real standard of enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūòha. (pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class, a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. Then? It is finished now? No.

Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems.

 

Room Conversation                                 December 12, 1976, Hyderabad                                                     467664

Jagadīśa: There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak was, that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and...

Prabhupāda: That is our aim.

Jagadīśa: That's our aim.

Prabhupāda: That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house.

Tejas: These Badapur (?), they are good men.

Prabhupāda: Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment... You see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs. So they are not so willing to... Because their whole family... The whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight.

Prabhupāda: Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family they may come.

Mahāṁśa: I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life.

Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment... That is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father: "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and... So I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, nā bābu kanceri jabo nā (?): "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp... He was sitting idly and it dropping and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that "Bābu kanceri jabo nā (?). That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "home sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see then why they, these Delhi passenger clerks... This morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping, and again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man..." Not only in India, in everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Long Island.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Long Island.

Prabhupāda: Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and..., eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home sweet home."

Mahāṁśa: I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Mahāṁśa: All the way from Poona.

Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saìkīrtana. If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Athāsaktiḥ. You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā

tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ

Āsakti. Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then... This is the beginning, that "You chant and take prasādam." Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti. Then they will not want money, they will not want... Then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti, that "This is... We shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical... That is... You cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saìkīrtana. This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise why we have to take so much responsibility?

Tejas: Last night it was very hard. Again no one was coming to the kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tejas: These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come...

Mahāṁśa: Devotees.

Tejas: No one would come. It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there and we had to go and get people and again they wouldn't come.

Prabhupada: So what is the use?

Tejas: This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get...

Prabhupāda: No, without kīrtana, it is...

Mahāṁśa: Refreshes you completely.

Prabhupāda: If you stop kīrtana, then it is ordinary.

Mahāṁśa: Work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tejas: And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic.

                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                        467748

Haṁsadūta: One more question. When... The first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura-Nitāi Deity immediately.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nṛsiṁhadeva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha.

Haṁsadūta: Right here?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Shall we begin right here? We have this little place...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Haṁsadūta: I have a set of Gaura-Nitāi's with me from the bus, but They're smaller.

Prabhupāda: So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati. Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya, patience. And...

Mahāṁśa: Determination.

Prabhupāda: Determination. Yes. "I must do it." And here if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you... And then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round?

Mahāṁśa: No, that is... Just in very near villages there's about eight thousand.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging.

Tejas: In this Dublipur(?) there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dublipur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near...

Prabhupāda: This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile.

Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: The roof tiles.

Mahāṁśa: Yes, just like the ones which are...

Prabhupāda: Then locally you get everything. You haven't have to got to get from outside. Eh?

Jagadīśa: Clay roof tiles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. So the villagers have come?

 

Press Conference                                     December 16, 1976, Hyderabad                                                     467860

Mahāṁśa: May I introduce the press to the project over here?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁśa: So by Kṛṣṇa's grace we have been given this plot of land which is 565 acres exactly, in two villages, that is, Dublipur(?) and Kanaipali villages. Lands are situated in the jurisdiction of these...

Guest (5): Dublipur(?) and what is the other?

Mahāṁśa: Kanaipali. And the lands were originally in the Venkateshvara Gorakshini Trust, and they have transferred these lands to ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust under the chairmanship of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So our interest here is to... This area, the whole area here, is very dry. Although there is potency of..., there is potential for tapping water, it has been left dry and unused just like so much land all over. You can see. There is so much land which is unused, vacant, just like this. So we have been given this piece of land. We want to set an example of how such wasted land can be, with proper management and organization, it can be made usable to grow food, abundant food grains and fruits and to feed unlimited...

Prabhupāda: And offer them to Kṛṣṇa and distribute prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our mission. We are already giving prasādam daily in the evening. There is no question of making profit.

Guest (5): So anyone can come and live here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Guest (5): Irrespective of religion...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Actually that is happening. Somebody has come from Germany, somebody from (indistinct), somebody Australia, somebody...

Guest (6): And even if he doesn't subscribe the śikṣā to which you want them to. Even those who don't subscribe to...

Prabhupāda: Then how he can live? If he does not live like us, then how he can live?

Guest (6): That is his question. Supposing he doesn't subscribe, still will he be allowed to come and live?

Prabhupāda: No, no, if he lives, then he will subscribe. Saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ. If you associate with good men you become a good man. If you associate with drunkard, you become drunkard. So we are giving the chance. Associate with us and you'll be devotee. That is becoming. So we are giving that chance. Come and live with us.

Guest (6): And what are the other point of stress in temples...?

Mahāṁśa: Yes. To facilitate a harmonious Kṛṣṇa conscious community we will have all facilities. There will be temples.

Prabhupāda: Let them come here, live peacefully, eat sumptuously, get all the other necessities of life and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our... And we have no discrimination, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. No. We have got many Christians, many Jews, many Hindus, many Muslims, many Africans. They are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (5): Even in India, Muslims are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim India or same India, those who are intelligent, they are taking.

Guest (5): In this country also they have taken?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of the Pakistanis, they have taken. Of course, he is living in foreign country. One Dr. Ramjan (?), he is the professor in Portland. He is my disciple. I have given him the name, Rāmaraïjana from Ramjan.

Guest (3): He has renounced his religion of Islam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is there. Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam. That is wanted.

Guest (3): Can you repeat his name, please?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (3): Can you give his name?

Prabhupāda: I said, Ramjan, Dr. Ramjan, in Portland University.

Mahāṁśa: Also Ātreya Åṣi.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Ātreya Åṣi, yes. He is Iranian.

Dr. Ramachandra: He is also Muslim?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many Iranians, they have become our devotees. We have got a temple in Tehran.

Devotee: In Hyderabad there is Muslim. He is a life member.

Prabhupāda: No, that, life member... God consciousness... Who will deny God? It is a science. So we are teaching the science, not the bigotry, "my God, your God." God is one. Gold is gold. Gold does not become Hindu gold, Muslim gold, or Christian gold. Anywhere gold is available, it is gold. That is our definition. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is highest, topmost type of religion, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, where one can learn how to love God, that's all. That is wanted. We are teaching that. There is no question of "this God, that God." God is one. You just practice how to love Him. Then your religion is first-class.

Guest (5): But why give names to Him? Why give names to that God?

Prabhupāda: No name. When I say, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, this is not name. Adhokṣaja means "who is beyond your sense perception."

Guest (5): It can be Allah, Christ, even Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you must know what is meaning of God. That's all. His name... Just like water. You say, "water," he says, pāni, he says, autuk (?). So water is water. Similarly, you must know what is God. Name does not matter. But Kṛṣṇa is the perfect name, Kṛṣṇa, according to Sanskrit, all-attractive. The God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He is God? That is the perfect name. Now, if you want to give another name we have no objection. There are hundreds and thousands of names, whatever you like. But it must be God's name. You must understand what is God. Then it is perfect. (aside:) Get on this light. It is scientific. It is not a religious sentiment. Why they should manufacture God? God is God. Gold is gold. And God definition is there in the Vedic literature.

aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jïāna-vairāgyayoś caivasannam iti bhaga...

Bhagavān. These are the bhagas, opulences. One who possesses all these opulences, He is God, Bhagavān. Asty arthe vatup.(?) So all opulences. God is not shortage of opulence. All opulences. All the riches. Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. This is God. He is the proprietor of everything. So unless you accept this formula, how you get conception of God? God is not a proprietor of three bighās of land. Here is God, sarva-loka-maheśvaram. That is God. God is not limited. He is unlimited. I can say I have got lakh of rupees, you can say you have got crore of rupees, but God says, "I am the proprietor of all the riches." That we cannot say. That is God's wealth. And because He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer, supreme enjoyer, bhoktā. But we are manufacturing different bhoktās; therefore there is controversy. If we accept "God is bhoktā; we are simply dependent on Him," then the whole question is solved. The United Nation is the... (break) Yes. God says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. He never said, māṁsaṁ din māṁ māṁsam.(?) (laughter) If you are God conscious, then you must give. Suppose you are here. If I invite you, then I'll ask you, "Sir, how can I serve you?" If you say, "Give me this kind of food," then that is real service. And you do not like something, and if I say, "Oh, this flesh is very nice. You take it," is that service? God demands this. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. So we are God's servant. We are giving with these groups of food. And after He's eating, we are taking. We are servant. We cannot say, "My dear master, I like this flesh. You take it." That is not service. So therefore fool has to do everything because God wants it. And if you say, "God is nirākāra. He has no mouth, no head, tail," then you can manufacture. But here God says.

Guest (6): In order to establish the āśrama will you be spending part of the year here?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got so many centers that if I stay in each center three days, the whole year is finished. What can be done?

Guest (5): Swamiji, how many āśramas and things you have?

Prabhupāda: 102, big, big āśramas. And we are feeding twenty thousand men daily without any income. The God sends. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. We are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month in New York and similarly other centers.

Guest (6): Twelve lakhs also in Delhi center only?

Prabhupāda: New York. New York.

Guest (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupāda: God sends.

Guest (5): God?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (5): But he's not sending funds, the god, planning commissioner.

Prabhupāda: Because he is not devotee. How He'll send? You feed your son, not the outsider.

Guest (5): But God doesn't discriminate.

Prabhupāda: So that, general food is there, but special, special mercy, is for the devotee. Just like you have got sympathy for all the children, but you have got special sympathy for your own children.

Guest (4): How many āśramas do you have in India?

Prabhupāda: India, I have got about six, seven.

Devotee: Eight. Eight.

Prabhupāda: Eight. Out of 102, in India I have got only eight. In America we have got forty centers.

Hari-śauri: Fifty with the farms.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: Fifty, more than fifty, with the farms.

Prabhupāda: Farms.

Guest (3): Fifty, five zero.

Guest (5): Yes, five zero.

Prabhupāda: No, in America. We have got farms like this. They are very successful. They are eating fresh vegetables, fresh grains and milk, and chanting. The temple is there. They have left the city life. So I want to organize that here also. We have already one in Navadvīpa. The devotees are there. They are having their own cloth, own food, own milk, residence, and chanting. That's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        467952

Guest (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection."

Guest (8): They should be given?

Prabhupāda: Given protection. If Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya... He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow.

Guest (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to expose of the body?

Prabhupāda: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the cāmāras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters, that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?"

Guest (9): So you support actually government ban of slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Guest (9): After the cow is dead, if the flesh is taken, it is...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (9): You have no objection.

Prabhupāda: No. The vultures, they live on the cow's flesh, so what objection we have got? We don't... We say, "Don't kill."

Guest (9): After the natural death, not slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If they are... Now you can do whatever you like. Our philosophy...

 

Room Conversation(2)                               December 22, 1976, Poona                                                          468236

Indian man: When the disciple is ready, the master comes. When the disciple is ready the master appears, comes, comes. It is not that the disciple has to search for the master. The master is also to search after the disciples.

Prabhupāda: Well, it is just like there is a school. The school is also advertising that you come here, you will get education. And one who is in need of education, he is also trying to come to school. So the school must be bona fide and the student must be bona fide. Then things will come at. If the school is bogus, then what the student will learn? They will not learn.

Girirāja: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. What does that mean?

Girirāja: "I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles."

Prabhupāda: There is good sex life and bad sex life. One who does not know what is good sex life, what is bad sex life, he's a rascal. Here you have to indulge in sex life which is not against the religious principles. But you must know what is religious and what is irreligious. If you do not know, you are rascal. There are two kinds of sex life. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that I am." So God is good. So sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is good sex life. Otherwise, it is bad.

Indian man: Where Kṛṣṇa comments...

Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand this, that Kṛṣṇa says "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is I am." The sex life which is against the religious principles, that is bad.

Indian man: Can you explain to me what is good sex life and bad sex life.

Prabhupāda: Good sex life, when sex life is accepted for begetting good children. Just like in another place it is said pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt. One should not become a father, one should not become mother, unless he or she can save his child from death. This is religious sex life. Suppose you are married. There is sex life. And both you and your wife decide that "Unless I am expert to save my child from death, we shall not have sex life." This is good sex life.

Indian man: It is negation of sex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise sex life is there in the cats and dogs. If you are going to be a dog? You must act as a human being. This is to act as human being, that "I shall not become a father, my dear wife, you should not become a mother, if both of us are not expert how to save the death of our child." This is good sex life. If you are not expert to execute this scientific method, that is bad sex life. It is the dog's sex life.

Indian man: Has anybody practiced this type of sex?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many. That is the Vedic civilization.

Indian man: They have shielded a child from death.

Prabhupāda: Yes, many, many.

Indian man: An example.

Prabhupāda: An example, that first of all you know how you can save the death.

Indian man: I do not know.

Prabhupāda: Ah, if you do not know that problem. (Prabhupāda is laughing)

Indian man: That is the biggest problem. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: That is.

Indian man: The body comes, then the soul. But that part is, I don't...

Prabhupāda: First of all, you have understood that unless you are capable of training your child not to die, you should not become a father. First of all, you have to accept this principle. Then how to save the child from death, that is next question. Let us go step by step. Your question was what is the good sex life, the answer is given here.

Indian man: Answer is very complicated.

Prabhupāda: Not complicated. The answer is... But how to become expert to save the child from death, that is another science that you should know. If you want to stop your self... (break) ...no need of a child to whom you have to give your care to make him, to raise him in such a way, if there is no such need, then there is no need of sex life. If you enjoy sex life for sense enjoyment, that is atrocity. That is atrocity. That is Vedic civilization. Because before sex life we have got saṁskāras, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. The purpose is there, that "I shall train my child how to stop death. And the child must be so good that he will take my instruction." And therefore. So without garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, one who enjoys sex life, he is the most sinful. Not that "Whenever and wherever I like and with whomever I like I shall have sex life." It is all sinful activity. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says dharma aviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Sex life which is not against religious principles, that I am. So if we try to understand this one verse, we become self-realized. Similarly, each verse of Bhagavad-gītā is like that.

Indian man: Such a supreme knowledge is there from our superior authorities. This knowledge is, we are not even able to follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Therefore people are coming out like cats and dogs. But here is Bhagavad-gītā. If you are guided by Bhagavad-gītā, then it is all right. But this question, next question you'll say that "How I can save?" That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. How you can save? Now you say. You tell me what is that verse. How you can save your child from death?

Indian man: By realizing, by giving an education.

Prabhupāda: No, you try to quote the verse, what is the way.

Indian man: (laughing) I am a small fly before yourself. You are the ocean. I am a drop.

Prabhupāda: No. You are not fly, you are experienced. Therefore I am trying to explain. Find out this verse. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. Punar janma naiti. That is continuation of life. Tyaktvā, everyone has to give up this body. And one who gives up this body but does not accept another material body, he has no more birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. You have to find out this. Read it.

Girirāja:

janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not upon leaving this body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Very simple thing, that you are part and parcel of God. God is eternal. So if you understand God, then you become eternal. Just like your father is very rich man, but you have left your father. You are loitering in the street. But as soon as you understand your father, "Oh, I am the son of such and such person. He is so rich! Oh, I haven't got any necessity." Then you become rich. Go back home, back to Godhead. Mām eti. "He comes to Me." Someone is there. You must know your father, and you must go back to father. Then there is no question of suffering. Very simple thing. Now what is the purport?

Girirāja: Purport. "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is already liberated. When one understands Kṛṣṇa properly. Then.

Girirāja: "And therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body."

Prabhupāda: That return to God is eternal. Suppose I am your guest here, so you may provide me for some days, but I cannot expect that you can provide me for all the days. That is my mistake. But if you go to your father's house, there is no question of. He takes. That is the required. Go to your father. Mām eti. Therefore this is the way of eternity, that you understand who is your father and you go back to Him. Then his life is successful. And who is the father?

Indian man: (laughing) Not the body.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Not body. It is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this verse. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. He is the father.

Girirāja:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ

tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: This is all very easy to understand. Mother means from whom the child is coming, is it not? That is mother. Everyone knows. So you see this whole world, wherefrom everything is coming, you see, practically, gross knowledge. I see a plant is coming from the earth. A tree is coming from the earth. And according to evolutionary theory... Not theory, fact. The dehāntara-prāptiḥ. When his plant life is finished, he takes another body, insect life. So the mother is the earth. That's a fact. I am eating the things which are... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. I am a life. I am taking either grain or I am taking flesh, the material is supplied from the earth. The animal also, he is also eating the grass. That is coming from the earth. The earth is the mother. That is a fact. Now we should be intelligent, that simply mother cannot beget a child. There must be father. So who is that father? The answer is here. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. So where is the ignorance?

Indian man: This is Brahman.

Prabhupāda: And again. Kṛṣṇa says aham, why do you interpret in different way.

Indian man: Now this indication is...

Prabhupāda: That means you make purposefully complicated. The father is saying, "I am father." Then why you are bringing this meaning, aham means...

Indian man: No, it's that "aham" is indicated to Who? The physical posture of Kṛṣṇa which we know or the...?

Prabhupāda: Why do we say like that? Why? (shouting) Why you are bringing physical concept He is a person, He is saying. Why do you say physical, material, and this and that way. He is father.

Indian man: Because He is saying, we should accept it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept. Accept, Kṛṣṇa is in your front. And why should physical, metaphysical and chemical? Kṛṣṇa is a person. A person says...

Indian man: Earth is mother...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And He says that "Earth is mother, I am the father." You have to understand it. That yes, earth is mother, because everything is coming from earth. But who has given the seed in the mother? That Kṛṣṇa says, "I am giving." Sa asṛjata sa īkṣata. This is Vedic version. And He says personally.

Indian man: As you say earth, mind accepts immediately. But...

Prabhupāda: But if your mind cannot accept, your mind cannot accept, that does not mean the things will change. You should know that you are a fool. You do not know.

Indian man: I accept.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then as Kṛṣṇa says you accept it. How the father has given seed to this earth? That is not your business. You try to understand...

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Because you are trying to understand in your own way.

Indian man: Trying to understand in my own way?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you beget a child, you give seed. The seed of the child in the womb of your wife in a method, you know that. Therefore you are thinking, "How it is possible?" You do not know that God is almighty. He can beget children in His own way, but you are thinking in your own way, that "I give birth to a child in this way. How is that He is seed-giving father and earth is producing?" Because you are thinking in your own way.

Indian man: I have to think in my own way.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not God. God is almighty.

Indian man: And now you are explaining that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to go to the right master.

Indian man: They say in their own way. How you search out the right master.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am speaking on the basis of the Bhagavad-gītā. I am not manufacturing.

Indian man: True.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is master. Master means he will not manufacture. Lawyer means who will speak in the court with reference to the lawbook. Not that "My Lordship I have manufactured this way. You accept it." "Get out. Get out, rascal. You are not a lawyer." So this is going on. The rascals are going to be lawyer, without understanding.

Indian man: No sir, the way you explain mother earth, similarly father's explain to me.

Prabhupāda: Father He says. Because you have no advanced knowledge, how you can understand? The father says, "I am father."

Indian man: So beautiful you explain mother. Similarly just let me understand father also.

Prabhupāda: No, no, beautifully, yes, everything is beautiful. We first know that without father, mother, there cannot be birth. So everything, whatever you, sarva-bhūtāni, sarva-bhūtāni, whatever is coming out, they are coming out as child of the earth. And you do not know who is the father. The father says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. You understand the father. How you do not understand? The father says, "I am the father." You are searching after the father, and father says, and mother certifies, "Yes, He is your father." You don't require any other knowledge.

Indian man: This is fact. I am not understanding.

Prabhupāda: It is a simple truth (indistinct). The father says, I am the father. Therefore what can be done? He says, the father says that "I am the father." Mother certifies, "Yes, he is your father." Still if you do not understand, what can be done?

Indian man: You indicated very beautifully mother. I accept that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also beautifully indicated. The father says personally, but you are so dull-headed you cannot understand.

Indian man: You say Lord Kṛṣṇa, but I must know what Kṛṣṇa is.

Prabhupāda: Then it is very difficult to make you understand. Everyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa?

Indian man: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Then you should learn it, what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said, anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. Because you do not know, you are not liberated. Otherwise, as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa you become liberated.

Indian man: It is plain fact. I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise, you will remain a rascal. That's all. That is your first business, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is explained in so many śāstras. If I am so rascal that still I cannot understand, that is my misfortune.

Indian man: Simply misfortune.

Prabhupāda: If I want to come to point of misfortune, that is my disease. Otherwise, we can understand little, Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

janma karma ca me divyaṁ evaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti...

Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa is liberation. And that is also explained. What is that tattva? How one can understand tattvataḥ, that is explained by Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. That tattva is bhakti, not karma, jïāna, yoga. Everything is there. And still if we want to be misled that is our misfortune.

Indian man: I am a seeker; I want to know.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am taking this trouble. Otherwise, I have no business.

Indian man: I want to know Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. If you want to know, then there is way. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated.

Indian man: This is the first step to know Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. There is no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you have no knowledge about me, what is Swamiji. You may speculate, "Swamiji may be such and such, such and such." But if I explain myself, that "I am like this," then where is the difficulty? You haven't got to speculate. Because I am explaining. So you take that. You understand Kṛṣṇa. Why speculation?

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no need of speculation. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. You take the advantage of Kṛṣṇa's explanation. You understand Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. I am explaining my position. You have to understand as I am explaining. You cannot explain me. That is not possible. There are so many secrets, I do not dis..., if I do not disclose, how you can explain it?

Indian man: Very simple, the way you related mother's. My mind could immediately accept it. But at the point of father's it stopped.

Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking to become father in a particular way. You do not accept...

Indian man: Mother also in particular way...

Prabhupāda: That means you are thinking in your own particular way. But Kṛṣṇa is not subjected to your thinking. You have to give up this bad habit first of all, that Kṛṣṇa will be subordinate to your thinking. That is not God.

Indian man: How to give up this bad habit?

Prabhupāda: That means you have to become a bhakta. So long... You are thinking as jïānī. Therefore... Jïānī cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Only the bhakta can understand.

Indian man: Because he thinks in other ways.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he cannot understand. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam. One who is fully surrendered... Not fully, even little surrendered, he can understand. (bell rings) Otherwise, ciraṁ vicinvan. He can speculate for long, long years, for long long years. Still he cannot. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam. He can understand. Na ca anya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Others, even one of them, simply by speculating they cannot understand.

Indian man: To find śraddhā, or faith to surrender. To surrender, one must have something to surrender to. What is that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is explaining about Himself. So many pages. At last He says, "Surrender to Me." He is not asking him to surrender all of a sudden. He is explaining all the ways. "You think over," He has explained. Then He says "The most confidential knowledge, Arjuna I am giving to you, because you are my very dear friend, that you simply surrender. That's all."

 

 

 

Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there.

Prabhupāda: There is no need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require... You have got this body. You have to eat and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural products, also cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization.

      ...live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission.

 

That is asurika. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled.

 

So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure.

 

First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Some blind men following another blind man.

 

India's business is para-upakāra. India's business is not exploitation.

 

No, we can utilize the gobar in different way…No, that ash is very good…No, any machine, that defect will be there.

 

So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misguided civilization…First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food--food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine, is important. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, they will also benefit. Natural fertilizing.

 

Because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said, go-rakṣya, "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa--giving up all other animals--He is giving stress on go.

 

It is free. Everything is free. We are not going to charge anything. Retired man, come here, take this spiritual education. This is our whole system. Hare Kṛṣṇa!

 

Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya. If you give up tapasya also then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa? Yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat. It must be continued. And again He stresses yajïo dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa," No, no, no, no. This yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma, even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajïo dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas, they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra-nārāyaṇa. Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money.

 

Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us.

 

Relatives they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least 25% to the relatives and 25% for personal. And 50% for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system.

 

Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or...

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others.

 

Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified. What is this? Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he first commanded, "Thou shall not kill."

 

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.

That is utilization of this filthy water where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow's, cow dung and man's stool and everyone's stool, they are wrapped gathered together in the rainy season. It became fertile.

 

But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. That... We are going to do that. Kṛṣi...

 

Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade?

 

If you produce food grain, you'll eat nicely and you'll be strong. You'll be able to work more. Our point is take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Kṛṣṇa is advising immediately sarva-dharmān parityajya. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you'll do, that is perfect.

Girirāja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture--that means you leave everything?

Girirāja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupāda: And what you have got? You are asking that "I require now food." That means you have nothing. You have no food even.

 

Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply wasting time, the civilization... śrama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... When I think of their position... So every Vaiṣṇava should be para-duḥkha-duḥkhī.

 

Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post or some position without qualification. That must be rectified.

Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They have no that quality of governing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? There is no kṣatriyas.

Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for people.

Prabhupāda: There is no brāhmaṇa in the society.

 

If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated. He is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.

Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva-dharmān parityajya?

Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is very easy: "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task, simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated.

Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind which has got all the vartmas of the past births.

Prabhupāda: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Kṛṣṇa says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all.

 

If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ, then you are liberated. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mām eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of māyā." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

That should be stressed. First business is the neighboring village people, they should come, chant and take prasāda. And gradually, when they become interested, then they come, live with us, work with us. In this way they should be induced, bare living and chanting…Then our movement is success. Our only motive is how people become interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other motive. No economic problem... Economic problem is... What is economic problem? We produce our own food and cloth, barely, and spiritual life... On the farm it is easier.

 

Still, if we try, many men will be saved. So write very elaborately how to do this. Increase. And in your country, we increase this farm project any unlimited number... So much land is lying vacant. We can utilize the wood for constructing residences. And as soon as the jungle is clear, we can utilize it for growing food and keeping cows, as exactly they are doing in New Vrindaban. The cows are very happy…So the cows are free moving. They're very happy. …The cows are moving freely. They're very friendly, even to the children, just like family members.

 

Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization.

 

He earns, he lives some way or other and sends money there, and the wife who is intelligent. He (she) accumulates the money and when there is enough money he (she) purchases land, investment. So... In after few years, when they have got enough land, they do not come back. They produce their own necessities. Very nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as they are self-sufficient from the land they no more work. That's a good idea. Remain in the village with family.

Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And to save them is paropakāra, real welfare activity.

That you have to practice, how to use kāma, krodha.

 

Whatever guru has said, take it seriously. Don't manufacture your ideas. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā.

 

That is our concern, how the world is misdirected. That we are challenging, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not that "East," "West," "you," "I." Everyone is a victim. Bhāgavata says, prāyena kalau asmin yuga-jana: "In this age everyone is condemned." It doesn't say that "These Eastern, Western..." Everyone is condemned. Kalau asmin yuga-jana. That is impartial.

 

Our mission is to induce them to chant and take prasādam. Then, next stage, if they want to work with us, it is welcome. If not, we shall go on giving prasādam and induce them to chant. This is our mission.

 

Don't stop prasādam. Never. Increase. I shall beg and supply you money. Don't worry. But don't waste it. Simply you take money and utilize it for preaching. My only anxiety is that don't be extravagant.

 

…just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and (indistinct) spiritual understanding. This is our mission… And this is very attractive to the rākṣasa class. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy.

 

But because we are culturally advanced, even the actual poor man, he does not feel that he is in poverty.

D. D. Desai: Yes, that is the case. That is... There is a basic grace in poverty.

Prabhupāda: That is...

yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ

manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ

yasmin sthite guruṇāpi

duḥkhena na vicālyate

This is culture. "So long I have got money, I am very happy." No! "If there is not a single farthing, still, I'll be happy." That is real culture… Never disturbed. That is culture. And "So long I have got money in the pocket, I am very happy"--that is dog civilization.

 

This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyāsīs.

 

You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That makes you guru, not this dress. So what you are thinking of American program? Do it seriously. Balavanta is very expert. And all of you are expert. And do it seriously and systematically…

 

Aeroplane was flying. So we admit this is contribution of the Western technology. But it is not safe. But what I am giving, it is safe.

 

Now they are going to take care of it, these brāhmaṇas…

 

Therefore I asked to take the government…

 

There is possibility of Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will take the government.

 

Girls who have no husband, they should dress like this, not attractive dress..But don't canvass. That is not good. And that is making our sannyāsīs fall down… First of all there will be no sannyāsī anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyāsīs.

 

And in our, this campus, actually those who are eager to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they should live, nobody else. We give free food, free apartment, cloth and everything. "Come here. Live. As far as possible we shall provide." But this is specially meant for bhagavad-bhajana. Attend ārati, early rise in the morning, attend the functions, take prasādam... In this way everything will be reorganized, not loose things.... This whole campus should be for devotees. We don't want tenant. And it should be developed for that purpose, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Either here or outside India or anywhere, this principle should be followed. And this hodgepodge association, society, is not the... Let it be very pure. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā. That one moon is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Hm? What do you think? One moon gives light. So, in this way, if we can make one person really Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our mission is successful.

 

So this Hare Kṛṣṇa Land--"Come on." All the vānaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana…

 

It is a very dangerous civilization, soul-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY EIGHT

Room Conversation                                     December 22, 1976, Poona                                                         468633

Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice puri. And then...

                                                                                                                                                                        468673

Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya-bhūmi. Religion and other studies of life, India. Communist (Hindi) that (if) you want to study religion then go to India." These boys of western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture airplane.

Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there.

Prabhupāda: There is no need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require... You have got this body. You have to eat and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural products, also cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization.

                                                                                                                                                                        468687

Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's... Just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God.

 

Prabhupāda: ...live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission.

Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is...

Prabhupāda: Very simple.

Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know these added added, added.

Prabhupāda: That is asurika. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled.

                                                                                                                                                                        468774

Mr. Malhotra: Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future.

Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position.

Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate is tied with the past karmas. So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas. Or can I change my fate?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas, and you are creating new karmas.

Mr. Malhotra: But this means a circle that I'll always be.

Prabhupāda: Karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: So how can one be out of this cakra?

Prabhupāda: That cakra, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas...

Prabhupāda: Yes, He says, "You surrender. I square up all your karma."

Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle.

Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Karma-cakra, this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. One after another, one body after another, one body after another. This will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, you have to return again to that karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your...?

Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa, that "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me."

Mr. Malhotra: How to surrender?

Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items. Yes. That "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that."

Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad.

Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor. These things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that, "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuïjan mat para, mat para. When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way.

Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted?

Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced.

Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling.

Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break)

 

Morning Walk                                              December 25, 1976, Bombay                                                       468978

Guest (1): Impact from these young boys and girls is good, very good, I should say. These young boys and girls who are working here by their own...

Prabhupāda: Their one qualification is that they are not poverty stricken. And our boys, they are poverty stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.(?) Even though are educated, on account of poverty they sacrificed everything their culture, their knowledge. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.

Guest (1): Yes, hunger is the cause of all. (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: I chastise them only because they don't care for money. (laughter)

Guest (1): They are extreme. It is contradiction...

Prabhupāda: And because they are fortunate, wherever they go, they get money.

Guest (1): That is law of nature. All the big rivers go to the sea where water is not wanted.

Prabhupāda: I have seen them. They squander so much money, and I chastise them that "You are so loose, you are so rascal and..." But still, whatever money I have got, it is due to them.

Guest (1): That's true, that's true. (laughter) That's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise... (laughing)

Guest (1): Really, it is true. (break)

Prabhupāda: I have tried convinced them. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrīḥ, to become moneyed, that also requires background. Pūrva-janmārjitaṁ dhanam. So they are born in rich country; that is due to their past pious deeds. Yes. There is no doubt. Yes. Now I request them that "You have got everything. You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you are perfect."

Guest (1): We have degraded ourself to such an extent...

Prabhupāda: No, we can rise immediately.

Guest (1): Yes yes, but foundation stone is there. City is there...

Prabhupada: Foundation or no foundation, but we,ll not agree. That is the difficulty. We'll not agree.

Guest (1): It's a difficult job, but it has to be done because I...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

Our difficulties are due to our sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa assures, "I will excuse you from the resultant action of all sinful activities. You surrender to me." But I will not do that. What Kṛṣṇa will do? He says, He assures, but nobody will do that. I say to my tenants here, that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You won't have to pay rent." (laughter) Because the whole rent... I am getting two-thousand, 2,500. That is my one day's expenditure.

Guest (1): Eventually they will come around, but it will take time.

Prabhupāda: No, the leaders are not... Because their position will be finished, the so-called leaders. They want to keep in ignorance the mass of people so their foolish leadership may go on continually. That is everywhere. (break) ...learn this philosophy and preach. That is the best service.

 

Room Conversation with Mr. Tombe (M.L.A.)                           December 25, 1976, Bombay                      469068

Mr. Tombe: After all, even if it is thrown out...

Prabhupāda: That is also answered in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. If the public is like dogs, camels, hogs, and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos.

Mr. Tombe: Then how to throw out good leadership?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ. If the śreṣṭha, the leader is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided.

Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from the villages...

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām. He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from... That lesson is there, Bhagavad-gītā. But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa said... Everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā, but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their... All these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there. Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect. So he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said... He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra. You understand little Bengali?

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Some blind men following another blind man. What will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate.

Mr. Tombe: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India, if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our... Of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the Supreme Leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam. If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult.

 

Morning Walk and Room Conversation                           December 26, 1976, Bombay                                 469084

Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts. Bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found.

Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals. Those who are following Darwin. What is their theory?

Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs, and they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together and they date these millions of years ago.

Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. (break) ...within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvara means "the life which cannot move." So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words...

Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. That is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea?

Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals.

Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came?

Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together.

Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life. (break) What do they say?

Devotee (1): They say they're working on it.

Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science... It will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe. It may be happening like this. But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless... "We are trying." Everyone will say, "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh?

                                                                                                                                                                              469272

Prabhupāda: More or less everyone of us, we are fool, mūòha. Kṛṣṇa has stated mūòha, mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān. So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina, narādhama, mūòha, māyayāpahṛta-jïāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods they desire. Not India, this planet, Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhāratavarṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūòhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

It is para-upakāra. India's business is para-upakāra. India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana, no. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real...

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke

jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. He has come to this material world, prakṛti, and or mental concoction he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement, and para-upakāra, people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something, relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian. I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the, what is called? Benefactor or...?

Dr. Patel: Deva-bhūmi, deva-bhūmi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

                                                                                                                                                                        468313

Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian, you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, you become..." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that.

Guest (4): That's what I say.

Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or God. This is our... And anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaja, God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so.

Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are... I mean Hindus, that Christ...

Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus. That does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit.

Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit.

Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said sarva-dharmān parityajya. You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti, love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. When becoming God conscious, you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka, with māla, they think Hindu. But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our... There is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga and at last he encouraged that, "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. Very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mukta-saìgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. He becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva. Otherwise, in this age, very difficult.

 

Room Conversation                                  Bombay, December 26, 1976                                                         469749

Indian man: So can I know the reason why you are restraining the use of gobar gas now. I could not understand actual technical difficulty. Is there any difficulty?

Prabhupāda: No, we can utilize the gobar in different way.

Indian man: No, but gobar gas is not good, that's why...

Prabhupāda: No, no, not good. But we have to arrange for this plant, generate gas. So why not direct?

Indian man: No, but the fuel is achieved, but the fertilizer is lost. Gobar, there are two elements. One is a methane gas and one is fertilizer. If you burn it you are burning the fertilizer which is very, very important, and very, very useful against the fuel that we get.

Prabhupāda: No, that ash is very good.

Indian man: No ash is not the full fertilizer. It is only partial. 10% of the fertilizer becomes ash. The organic matter is burned with great loss to the society and the earth.

Prabhupāda: But in our Māyāpura, that plant, we spent so much, it has not become successful.

Indian man: No that is mechanical fault. Just like electricity now it has failed. Now sir, we should not stop utilizing electricity.

Prabhupāda: No, any machine, that defect will be there.

Indian man: But that we have been working for twenty years in Ahmedabad. Everybody is very happy there, and they're actually making money out of it. The fertilizer that is there is about four times what is normally achieved. So good maintenance are required for any...

Prabhupāda: (sneezes loud) I have no objection, but I've got experience. In Māyāpura it is failure.

Indian man (2): Sometimes we get a defective machine. I purchased one for my girl's house. I've got a number of about 30. But one was rejected but...

Indian man: Either defective machine or defective maintenance.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the difficulty is there. (sneezes) (pause)

 

Morning Walk                                          December 27, 1976, Bombay                                                         469817

Prabhupāda: You can describe like this. Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's--whatever he likes, he does--that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya, sense gratification and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam. We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing--how to purify it. Sattva, I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy and there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on.

Guest (Indian man): That tapasya means?

Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted.

Guest (1): Protect your mind... Wed it to the soul and taken away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā, is that not the meaning?

Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet, to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and... That is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or, utmost, hundred years, that is his ultimate. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been (called) na arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. The sewer hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter--it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know. As soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhangis will, what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig and with fire, roast it. And he, it cries, "Kyaa, kyaa, kyaa." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law.

Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti (indistinct), dvijātmānaṁ brahma-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam...(?) (indistinct) That type of bhakti is a tapasya (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti? He was going to take sense enjoyment.

Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas.

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya. Just like they are in the bhakti line. They are doing tapasya. They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maìgala-ārati, no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya. Whole thing is tapasya, tapaḥ, because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. He does not come again to accept the material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement "Work hard. The next (?)." They are pulling one trailer, rickshaw, still, their leaders are advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on trailer and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong, as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible.

Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all.

Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ, what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You don't require any covering?

Guest (2): No, I do, but...

Guest (1): (Hindi) My daughter.

Prabhupāda: I have not seen him?

Guest (1): He used to come.

Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misguided civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for degress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimages, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food--food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine, is important. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, they will also benefit. Natural fertilizing.

Dr. Patel: And From cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required?

Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking... We are speaking... Because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said, go-rakṣya, "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa--giving up all other animals--He is giving stress on go. And that is meaning. He never said, animal-rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya, no. Those who want to eat paśu, let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter.

Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now.

 

Morning Walk                                         December 29, 1976, Bombay                                                          470283

Prabhupāda: ...free. Free education, why they'll not accept?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Free education they will.

Prabhupāda: It is free.

Guest (1): It is free education.

Prabhupāda: It is free. We are asking people come here, live here, take this education.

Guest (1): Nobody pays anything.

Prabhupāda: It is free. Everything is free. We are not going to charge anything. Retired man, come here, take this spiritual education. This is our whole system. Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Guest (2): Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Why they'll not do? Just think over this. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have given this main point to our lawyers and this is what we are working on.

Prabhupāda: It is completely educational. Spiritual education. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. It is not religious sentiment. Some Arya-samajis told me in Durban, South Africa, that "Why you are bringing this Hindu idea?" And this is not your Hindu idea. Kṛṣṇa said kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Does it mean that only Hindus, from boyhood they become youth, and the Musselman does not? What is this nonsense? People are so misguided they cannot understand this simple word, this spiritual education. They say Hindu idea. That only the Hindu boys grow to become young men. The Muslim, the Christian, they do not grow up. Just see how much in darkness they are and how much they require this education. How the world is in need of this spiritual education. And they cannot understand it. Just see how they are dull and rascal headed. Hindus grow only. Huh? Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... Kṛṣṇa said from boyhood to yauvanam, it is Hindu idea. The Arya-samaji friend told me, why you bring this Hindu idea? How much dull they are just imagine.

Dr. Patel: I don't think it is dullness. It is fanaticism maybe.

Prabhupāda: And who becomes fanatic? All rascals, dull. They become fanatic. Otherwise, why one should be fanatic? If one has got brain, one has got logic, how he should be fanatic? Fanatics means dullheaded rascal, that's all. The Muslims they become fanatic, we say, generally they are, because they're dullheaded. Always unclean and eating meat and low behavior. What is that? Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca janā na vidur āsurāḥ, na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāraḥ. This is dull head. There is no cleanliness, no behavior. (Hindi) That is especially mentioned. That ayaṁ deha. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. This kind of life is meant for the hogs, not for the human beings. (Hindi) Sex. No discrimination. (Hindi) Sex is a bodily, what is the...

Guest (1): Necessity of life.

Dr. Patel: Biological necessity.

Prabhupāda: Necessity. What is the difference? Why not with sister, why not with daughter or even why not with mother? What is the wrong there? They say like that?

Dr. Patel: They consider themselves to be animals.

Prabhupāda: They are animals. Why consider? They are animals. Therefore śāstra says viò-bhujām. Not ordinary animals. A sewer animal. Sewer. (Hindi) Animal society. Dvipāda-paśu. We'll say that "Why you are wasting your time in this so-called material advancement?" How they'll understand? So dull head. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: (laughs) You're right. The modern civilization is the materialists, veda is material. Veda is body consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That means sewer civilization. It is sewer civilization.

Dr. Patel: ...is only the civilization of Vedas. We have lost the Vedic mooring.

Prabhupāda: Why India should lost? India is the hope of the whole world and their men have now become sewer, sewer kavaca. That is my regret. Others may be, but why Indians? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

Bhārata-bhūmi, you don't become sewer dweller. You make your life...

Dr. Patel: We have become, sir, in a way, because we have...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you should check now.

Dr. Patel: Our system has been...

Prabhupāda: You should check now. You should revive now.

Dr. Patel: The Vedic civilization is the base of our making a man. I mean, truly a good man.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Guest (2): No, we should check it. That is the point.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (chants japa) (break) Hindu idea. Hindu idea. (break) You know that? fetus? What is that? Killing and eating.

Dr. Patel: Somebody told. You or somebody. No?

Prabhupāda: No, not somebody. Everybody says. Not some. Everyone knows. It is common practice. Delicacy.

Dr. Patel: The idea is so abominable to our culture.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Sewers activity's all abominable.

Dr. Patel: But this idea of eating a fetus is extremely abominable. You can't think of it. I mean a baby having developed, we can't imagine.

Prabhupāda: But you must know it. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: ...makes the way Western civilized people kill, we simply shudder at the very idea. Others, they're not able to, I mean, bear the sight of meat.

Prabhupāda: Our men, those who are not educated, they are better than the... That people may call superstition, but if they are going by the old superstition they would have... I have seen in, sometimes in 1945 or '46, in a train one village girl was sitting and covering. She's young girl, going to her husband's house. What is that? Kane.

Dr. Patel: Gomath, gangath.(?)

Prabhupāda: No no. Kane. After... Because formerly the girls were married early. So after getting puberty there is one ceremony, it is called diti-abhi-bha.(?) Another ceremony. And then she goes to her husband's house. So she was going there with presentation of father, mother. So she was covered. So another young girl, up-to-date, she was doing like this. They were girls. One can touch another. So once, twice. When it made thrice, that village girl slapped her, "Hut!" I said, "Yes, you have done right." She was thinking, the city girl was thinking, "What is this nonsense?" She wanted to criticize... (laughs)

Guest (1): She got a slap.

Prabhupāda: And she gave a good slap. I've seen it. She's up-to-date and she became surprised. Lifting the avaguṇṭhana. So the whole train, they became laughed. And woman, the shyness is the only protection for them.

Guest (1): Shyness.

Dr. Patel: Modesty.

Prabhupāda: Modesty. There is no modesty left. Anyway, and that is the beauty. But we are breaking that. There is no beauty, no attraction. And as soon as you break this modesty, shyness, then the woman will create devastation.

                                                                                                                                                                        470352

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is fact. The whole world has become sewer. (Hindi) Including India. It is not that India is now human being. No. India has also become sewer. So it is a great service. This is the only service to the human society. And to keep them sewer and organizing United Nations. What the sewer will unite?

Dr. Patel: United Nation of sewers. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be successful?

Guest (1): That is all they have. This is disunited nation, not united nation.

Prabhupāda: I said in some public meeting in Melbourne, "The United Nation is the assembly of some dogs. They are barking." And newspapermen added, "The Swami has come to hound you." (laughter) Eh? What is that?

Hari-śauri: "His Divine Grace is here to hound us."

Prabhupāda: Hound. Yes. So I attacked the whole United Nations, and so they attacked me also.

Dr. Patel: No, we have seen the League of Nations was even better than the United Nations. They are all really fighting among themselves very badly.

Prabhupāda: Now how they cannot fight? They are swines and dogs. How they will remain peaceful? It is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Unless they are spiritually elevated they cannot be peaceful. It is impossible. Paṇòitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Simply by stamping.

                                                                                                                                                                        470375

That verse I very much like.

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke

kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujām ye

tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ

śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam

The human life is meant for purifying. They have lost this goal of life. Temporarily we are thinking if we make some comfortable arrangement for body, and that is sufficient. That is sufficient. Lost Vedic culture, ideal life, goal of life. (Hindi) At least in India it should... In other places they are... Therefore this movement's against them. Because we are preaching this philosophy just opposite to their views, they are taking it "brainwashed." Is that all right in your country?

Devotee: They accuse them of brainwashing. But actually...

Prabhupāda: They cannot believe that other than this method, there can be civilization. This hoggish civilization is real civilization. To become like hog. That is real civilization. And to give up this process, thinking of soul, elevation of the soul, going back to Godhead, simply imagination, brainwashing. How they can understand? Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra vartmani. Who can understand this? (Hindi) to return (Hindi) to the cycle of birth and death. You believe that. (Hindi) If you do not in this life achieve the sense of spiritual consciousness then you'll have to go back to the cycle of birth and death. Who will understand this philosophy? Mostly they do not know what is the cycle of birth and death, and what to speak of understanding God. This is the position. This is sewer position. A sewer cannot understand. The men have become like that. In the name of so-called civilization. Can a sewer understand this philosophy? A man cannot understand. And what is the difference between him and the sewer? Sewer (Hindi) There is a narration, Brahmā came, and Indra became, by the curse of Bṛhaspati, became a sewer. So he was living in the forest as sewer. Brahmājī came, "All right, your punishment is now over. You come." "Where shall I go?" "The heaven?" "This is heaven." "You have got your kingdom, heaven. You have come to suffer this life." "No no, I cannot go." "Why?" "Now who will take responsibility for my, this sewer?" (laughter)

Dr. Patel: I like this tale.

Prabhupāda: Then Brahmā began to kill his sewerni (?) and his pigs and others, and then he began to cry and took him by force. There is a (indistinct). Even Indra, when he comes under the influence of this tamo-guṇa, he became happy in the high life of sewer.

Dr. Patel: Māyā duratyayā. Mama māyā duratyayā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Śrutaśrava: The governor there, he was making a statement that most institutions in California like hospitals and places like this, they are simply torture chambers. So he made one request that people like priests and monks and Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, if they could go to these places and try to help people.

Prabhupāda: We are prepared. If they give us in charge, we are prepared.

Śrutaśrava: So in Christmas day Rāmeśvara Mahārāja was planning that many devotees could go there and distribute prasāda and some literatures.

Prabhupāda: We can cure them from material and spiritual diseases. They are now trying to cure them from material ailments. We can cure them from spiritual ailments. Actually, the ailment is spiritual. Material is symptom. (end)

Morning Walk                                          December 30, 1976, Bombay                                                         470468

Prabhupāda: So explain with that purpose. At least, they are sensible. (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajïa, dāna, tapasya. So yajïa for the brahmacārīs, begin yajïa. And dāna for the gṛhasthas, and tapasya for the sannyāsīs. Yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam, Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this. "I have become sannyāsī, therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya. If you give up tapasya also then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa? Yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat. It must be continued. And again He stresses yajïo dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa," No, no, no, no. This yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-karma, even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajïo dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas, they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra-nārāyaṇa. Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate. Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmī, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local... Formerly the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others money, they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa-vaṇik. They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees he can deliver. At any moment. The bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money... Relatives they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least 25% to the relatives and 25% for personal. And 50% for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. So this is called dānam. Kṛṣṇa also says kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa. I do not know how they manufactured these things. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. The principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa. But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda, they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done.

Interview                                                     December 31, 1976, Bombay                                                      470597

Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you don't care for the śāstras, if you manufacture your own way, then, as it is stated, na siddhiṁ sāvāpnoti. You'll never be successful. Na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. Neither happiness nor better life will be next or the supreme goal. These things finished. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ. If you do not take the guidance of the śāstra then all your hope is finished. You can hope, but you'll never... This is our... Therefore we follow the śāstras and we teach others to follow śāstras. If you like you can do. Otherwise do whatever you like. But you don't manufacture and spoil my life and others. You don't do.

Indian man: There was some trouble with your movement in America recently.

Prabhupāda: We don't care for this trouble. If you are sincere it is all right. We are facing so many difficulties. We don't care for it. We never compromise. All my students, they will never compromise. Why shall I compromise? If I am confident that I am speaking the truth, why shall I make compromise? Those who are not confident of his position, they will make compromise. One who does not know where he stands, he will make compromise. And if I know where I am standing, why shall I make compromise? Let others do whatever he likes. This is our position.

 

Room Conversation                                    Dcember 31, 1976, Bombay                                                         470615

Prabhupāda: ...so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes and they'll take it for granted. Just like this "Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhe-Śyāma." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa. So two things are there always, two sides. One for the mahā-bhāgavata, one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī. So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not...

Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice. You are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something. "Papa, mama." And mama is... Not that his words are complete.

Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or...

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani... "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and---reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach."

Dr. Patel: Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot.

Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Cakravarty. So (indistinct), I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man. Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        470711

Prabhupāda: You were... Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified. What is this? Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he first commanded, "Thou shall not kill."

Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple.

Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing.

Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even...

Prabhupāda: So where is religion?

Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata has criticized all so-called religion.

Dr. Patel: One patient of mine Sardar Patel, he's a old (indistinct) from Hindus and Muslim. And (indistinct) killing of their...

Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted... (break) ...for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs. Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee.

Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said, "I am yajïa, and I am also hutam, and I am also performer of yajïa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanaṁ ca. Unless He gives smṛti, he cannot chant the mantra. "Therefore actually I am performer."

Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajïaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Therefore He says "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing. I am doing. I say, 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer, I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanaṁ ca. Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to my desires. I cannot do anything independent. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. I insist, "God give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says, that "You don't do this." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are my son, what can I do? All right. Do it."

Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you what ever you..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. "Because you are rascal, less intelligent you are doing this but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it."

Room Conversation                                      January 2, 1977, Bombay                                                           471228

Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. Everything is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. I speak, therefore, to my disciples that "You simply repeat like parrot Bhagavad-gītā and follow by your life. Don't try to become very big scholar, do interpretation. Remain foolish and believe in Kṛṣṇa. Then life is perfect." And actually that is happening. They never tried to eschew and... What is called, the English word? Draw out some meaning. Eschew or something?

Jagadīśa: Eschew is the right word.

Prabhupāda: They do, everyone. The Tilak has done like that, Gandhi has done like that, Vinod Bhave is doing that. Dr. Radhakrishna has done like that, Vivekananda has done, Aurobindo has done--everyone. Nobody would take directly, that "Here is God." What do you think? They have taken directly? Do they believe?

Dr. Patel: They believe in God.

Prabhupāda: No, believe in God, that is everyone doing. So what is their special credit? Why do they touch Bhagavad-gītā and say, "My imagination of God is different"? How cheating it is. If your imagination of God is different, why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā and declare yourself that "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā. My life is also for Gītā?"

Dr. Patel: Even when Tilak... Tilak says he follows Bhagavad-gītā always.

Prabhupāda: Everyone says that. But nobody says...

Dr. Patel: A part of it, not the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: Nobody says that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." That is their fault.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can bring the car down at ten o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Nobody says, "Here is God." That is, perhaps... We Vaiṣṇavas say; I am preaching. Perhaps I am the first preacher to the world, that "Here is God."

Dr. Patel: Some of these great Vaiṣṇava ācāryas were doing interpretation of Bhagavad-gītā...

Prabhupāda: The who is ācārya except the Vaiṣṇava ācārya? All loafer class. All loafer class. They're not ācāryas. Except these Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, who is ācārya? They're not ācāryas. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān.

Dr. Patel: I read your Bhagavad-gītā, and after that, I read Rāmānuja's. They more or less the same...

Prabhupāda: Same thing. There is no difference between the ācāryas. Then how he becomes ācārya if there is difference of opinion? They cannot be ācārya. (end)

 

Conversation with Yogi Amrit Desai of Kripalu Ashram (PA USA)

                                                               January 2, 1977, Bombay                                                                 471071

Prabhupāda: What you are doing there? (break) Actually, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Asat mithyā. (break) ...asat, but we are now situated in this asat situation life after life. That is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Accepting one body after another, another, another, another, it is going on. Therefore, asat-saìga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra. Then what is that asat? That Caitanya Mahāprabhu..., strī-saìgī eka asādhu kṛṣṇābhakta āra. There are two asats. Two asats. Asat-saìga-tyāga. And to give up asat association... Then the next question is: "How you will know who is asat, who is sat?" So He said, asat eka strī-saìgī. Anyone who has association with woman, he is asat.

Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the strongest bond between the..., to the body and the soul.

Prabhupāda: He is asat. He doesn't... We say that strī-saìgī, to associate with woman without marriage, we say, "Don't do this," but Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, either illicit or legal, it is asat.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Either married or unmarried, it is not.

Prabhupāda: It is asat. Therefore, when He was twenty-four years' age, He gave up His young..., home, wife. He became a sannyāsī, practically. And He was very, very strict to talk with woman. No woman could come before Him to offer respect. Little from far off. But His one of the personal associates, he simply desired. Immediately he was rejected, Choṭa Haridāsa.

Yogi Amrit Desai: I didn't understand. His personal associate...

Prabhupāda: He had His personal associate. His name was Choṭa Haridāsa. He looked upon one woman with lusty desires.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Oh, I see. He looked upon a woman with a lusty desire, and he allowed it...

Prabhupāda: He immediately rejected him from His association.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Really?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And He was so strict... This man, being hopeless that he'll not be able to associate with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he committed suicide.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Really?

Prabhupāda: And when He learned that he has committed suicide, He did not regret. "Yes, this is the just punishment." You see how much strictly. (break) And He said, asat saìga. Yoṣitāṁ saìgī-saìgaḥ. He said that.

niṣkiïcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya

pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya

sandarśanaṁ viṣayiṇām atha yoṣitāṁ ca

hā hanta hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu

He was very strict. So this is Vaiṣṇava behavior. Asat-saìga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra, strī-saìgī eka asādhu kṛṣṇābhakta āra... So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sampradāya is very rigid.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, very rigid.

Prabhupāda: Very, very. But if one is able to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and receives a little mercy... He is very merciful. He is prepared to be merciful to anyone, any fallen soul. But if we take it, His mercy, if we simply follow His instructions, then our life is successful. Life is successful. Yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī... Even if we are not able to take His whole mercy, a little part of His mercy, then our life...

                                                                                                                                                                        471199

Hari-śauri: The reason for the Mela is because there was some drops of nectar from the...

Prabhupāda: It is actually a religious conference. All the different groups, they gather in that holy place, and they propagate their philosophy, discussion, like that. India is country of religion. They know how spiritual life more important than this material life. That is India. Now they are diverting their attention to the material; otherwise whole India, they are for spiritual life. They don't care for material ... This material life is brought from Western countries, these railways, these..., so many things, bridges and so on, so on.

Hari-śauri: Factories.

Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute--these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." (break) ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden.

 

Room Conversation with C.I.D. Chief        January 3, 1977, Bombay                                                            471280

Prabhupāda: So if we can get that land, then we can divert our sewer in the land and utilize it for nice agricultural purposes. So instead of spending lakh of rupees for municipality, why not acquire that land?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Acquire or buy? Acquire.

Prabhupāda: Acquire means you have to pay, but government...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but acquire usually takes a long time.

Prabhupāda: Not long time. They'll give us, because it is lying vacant.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the sewage problem in Vṛndāvana, we'll have to make, do something quickly because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can...

Prabhupāda: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's a very good idea. But we'll still have to put a pipe underground coming out.

Prabhupāda: That is not much, a few you, few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business.

Hari-śauri: That can be used for agriculture?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.

Hari-śauri: I think in the West they have a law that says you can't use human sewage.

Prabhupāda: Kick out the West. We are doing here, in India. The municipality is doing that also in Vṛndāvana. Everywhere it is. In Calcutta there is called dhāpāra māṭha. Dhāpāra māṭha, formerly, anything produced in dhāpāra māṭha, that was not used for Deity. The superstition that "These vegetables are grown in filthy water, nasty..." But the vegetables were--cauliflower so big, so big. Everything, very luxuriantly, very tasteful and solid and big... Dhāpāra māṭhera (Bengali). They used to take. In Bengal, generally, the land is very fertile to produce vegetables. But this, the more the filthy things of the city were thrown there, and the cultivator used to grow very nice... That is utilization of this filthy water where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow's, cow dung and man's stool and everyone's stool, they are wrapped gathered together in the rainy season. It became fertile. (Hindi)

                                                                                                                                                                        471325

Setterji: I have seen about four men at the Pathan border, and the... One, this Korabhari, this ṭāìgā, Victoria,(?) came with six Muslims. And they challenged us. Very... "We will kill you." We said, "Yes, come. You kill us; we will kill you. We fight." We were ready at that time because revolver was there and the Kurari Kundasa was there. One, my friend, he was from Gujawala(?). He showed this Kundasa, and his head cut out, and he was running...

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Still running?

Setterji: Running! In Mahābhārata(?) I was heard that body was running. But actually I have seen at that time. Head was cut and the body was running.

Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughter) And then he fell down.

Setterji: Then he fell down. And of that, the other men went.

Prabhupāda: That, how he was running with his mind, just see.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With his mind.

Hari-śauri: The mind is in the heart.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                  January 3, 1977, Bombay                                                            471382

Prabhupāda: Yes, Pālikā. (break) ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. That... We are going to do that. Kṛṣi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. And the kṛṣi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you'll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you'll eat nicely and you'll be strong. You'll be able to work more. Our point is take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Kṛṣṇa is advising immediately sarva-dharmān parityajya. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you'll do, that is perfect.

Girirāja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture--that means you leave everything?

Girirāja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupāda: And what you have got? You are asking that "I require now food." That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. (break) Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply wasting time, the civilization... śrama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... When I think of their position... So every Vaiṣṇava should be para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. So you like it?… Krpambudhir yas tam aham prapadye. The unhappy for the unhappiness of others. They love them, unhappy without Krsna consciousness. This is a fact. The rascal may agree or not agree. That's a fact. Ghostly haunted.

 

Morning Walk                                             January 4, 1977, Bombay                                                            471486

Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post or some position without qualification. That must be rectified.

Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They have no that quality of governing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? There is no kṣatriyas.

Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for people.

Prabhupāda: There is no brāhmaṇa in the society.

Dr. Patel: If they are there, they are not well-off.

Prabhupāda: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brāhmaṇas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern society, they do not want brāhmaṇas, neither anybody interested to become a brāhmaṇa. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brāhmaṇa." (laughter) That is not possible.

                                                                                                                                                                        471513

Prabhupāda: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating. (break) It is very easy. Just like a child. If he takes your direction, he liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated. He is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.

Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva-dharmān parityajya?

Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is very easy: "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task, simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated.

Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind which has got all the vartmas of the past births.

Prabhupāda: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Kṛṣṇa says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That's my doing.

Dr. Patel: You mean sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. That is your duty you have. That is what ...

Prabhupāda: So that verse is very important. That mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. As soon as you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated, not that liberated means one has to grow four hands and eight legs. No. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that "Henceforward I shall act only as directed by Kṛṣṇa." That's all. You are liberated. It is one minute....

Dr. Patel: How do you get that direction moment by moment, hour by hour?

Prabhupāda: By His representative, by His words, they are present. Where is the difficulty to get His direction? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. One who has seen, one who has understood Kṛṣṇa, take direction from him. "He's my representative." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If you get right guru, then you are liberated. If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ, then you are liberated. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mām eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of māyā." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation                                      January 4, 1977, Bombay                                                           471596

Prabhupāda: That should be stressed. First business is the neighboring village people, they should come, chant and take prasāda. And gradually, when they become interested, then they come, live with us, work with us. In this way they should be induced, bare living and chanting.

Jagadīśa: As in Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then our movement is success. Our only motive is how people become interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other motive. No economic problem... Economic problem is... What is economic problem? We produce our own food and cloth, barely, and spiritual life... On the farm it is easier. And if they are dispatched to the city for livelihood, there are big, big roads and big, big cars and big, big anxieties. Then wine, meat, and so on, so on..., suicide, their spiritual life finished. These rascals are protesting. They have no ideas of spiritual life. They think this is life, to be merry, enjoy and drink. "Eat. Drink. Be merry." How they are committing suicide, they do not know. Nature's law is very stringent. They are foolish rascal. There is no education for them. Still, if we try, many men will be saved. So write very elaborately how to do this. Increase. And in your country, we increase this farm project any unlimited number... So much land is lying vacant. We can utilize the wood for constructing residences. And as soon as the jungle is clear, we can utilize it for growing food and keeping cows, as exactly they are doing in New Vrindaban. The cows are very happy. In our original New Vrindaban... What you have named it?

Jagadīśa: The original farm? I think they still call that New Vrindaban.

Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindaban, whole thing. That is called Bahulaban or something like that? So the cows are free moving. They're very happy. You have seen it?

Jagadīśa: The original farm I haven't seen for some time.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Last time you were not... I had been there. The cows are moving freely. They're very friendly, even to the children, just like family members. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... You'll find in India one boy taking care of twenty-five cows.

Jagadīśa: With just a stick.

Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa-raa!"--immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat." Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization. Therefore they are trying to oppose us. Now they are conscious about the movement, that "If it is allowed to increase, then our program will be finished. And young men are taking. They are not rejecting." That is their concern. They are concerned about their business and industry. If these young men are held up in plain living, then where their industry...? Industry means to exploit the work of others and give them one dollar and make profit ten dollars. This is industry, at the cost of others some capitalist gaining huge profit. This is industry. "And let them live in a hellish condition, go to hell. Never mind. You work in the factory, and we make profit." The Communist is trying to take over the industry and get the whole profit. (laughs) That's all. The condition remains the same--hellish. But... What is called...? Complacent, he's satisfied that "I am getting the profit." All foolish. The Iran is also imitating European method of exploiting. They're bringing men from village. In India also, British period, they used to, that, but Indian people are little clever. They would come from the village to the city alone, not with family. They earn money and send to the family. And whenever they like, they go away. They're not dependent. And if you bring family, you have to work. That system is still going on. The village men, they come but they do not bring their family. Family remains in the village. He earns, he lives some way or other and sends money there, and the wife who is intelligent. He (she) accumulates the money and when there is enough money he (she) purchases land, investment. So... In after few years, when they have got enough land, they do not come back. They produce their own necessities. Very nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as they are self-sufficient from the land they no more work. That's a good idea. Remain in the village with family.

 

Morning Walk                                             January 5, 1977, Bombay                                                            471797

Prabhupāda: Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And to save them is paropakāra, real welfare activity. (break)

 

Prabhupāda: (japa) Sell books and this principle follow: half construct temple, half print books. That's it. No income tax. "We have spent everything. That's all." (japa) In Vṛndāvana, he was suggesting, that Set, Setterji, that "You make some will. Otherwise, after your... In your absence the government will..." And I'll not keep a single farthing. I shall spend all before I die. (chuckles) Invest in book, that's all. I am insisting on this. But I am simply afraid if we have got enough stock, it may not be stolen and misused. Otherwise I want to immediately invest in books all the money that I have got.

                                                                                                                                                                        471932

Prabhupāda: Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "By guru's mercy and Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one can enter into bhakti-mārga." Without guru's mercy you cannot do, and without Kṛṣṇa's mercy also you cannot do. Kṛṣṇa is situated within your heart, and if you are sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give you the right guru. And then, by guru's mercy, you'll understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the process.

Indian (1): All hours... 'Cause passion will come you, when at times of anger gets temporarily the better of you, what is the guidance which can bring you back to normality? Because in anger you can do a lot of things. Because you lose, spontaneously you lose your temper. Though it can be for the good...

Prabhupāda: When you can conquer over your anger, then you become gosvāmī. Vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam. Krodha-vegam. Mānasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. A guru... One cannot become guru who has no control over these things: vāco vegam, the urge of speaking nonsense. Vāco vegam. Krodha-vegam, the urge of anger. Mānasa-vegam, urge of mind. Udara-vegam, urge of the belly. Upastha-vegam, urge of the genital. In this way, all the six vegas, one who can control, he is fit for becoming guru.

                                                                                                                                                                        471940

Devotee (1): Gurujī, the problem which I am putting as a common man is... I am...

Prabhupāda: It is not for the common man. Common man has to learn under the discipline of guru. You cannot expect all these things from a common man. When you actually control all these things then you are not common man. You are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy.

                                                                                                                                                                        471944

Prabhupāda: No, let him. That you have to practice, how to use kāma, krodha. That is described by Narottama dāsa Öhākura. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Kāma means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kāma. So convert it, this kāma desire, for Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. And persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kāma, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it. Just like Hanumān. He became very angry, and he set fire in the Lanka. Unless one is very angry, he cannot do that. But that krodha was applied to the demon. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. So we can utilize kāma, krodha, moha, bewilderment. When we cannot find out a bhakta, then we should be bewildered. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. So therefore bhakti process means that everything has to be purified. Krodha, Hanumān's krodha to set fire Laìkā, it is purified krodha. But they cannot understand the krodha, how it is purified. But krodha can be purified. When it is bhakta-dveṣi-jane... Those who are envious of God and His devotees, upon them you should be always angry. "No, I have become a bhakta. I cannot become..." Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed by His example. He said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. But when Nityānanda Prabhu was injured, He became so angry, He immediately said, "Bring my cakra. I shall kill the Jagāi-Mādhāi." So at that time He's not tṛṇād api sunīcena. That is krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. So we have this kāma, krodha, moha, everything, whatever sense activity we have got. When they are utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena. Now there is fight... Just like political fight. In the political fight both the parties, they are trying to get supremacy of their own sense gratification. But here the fight, Rāma-Rāvaṇa..., Hanumān's krodha was not for himself. He did not want the Laìkā kingdom. But because Rāmacandra wanted that "This man should be punished," he cooperated: "Yes." So this is spiritual. In this way, when we purify all our activities, all our sensual activities, then it is right. Otherwise... Just like Arjuna. He purified his senses. A Vaiṣṇava is naturally nonviolent, but in order to satisfy Kṛṣṇa he fought. That is purified. So we have to purify. Our activities cannot be stopped. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: All activities done for sake of Kṛṣṇa or God are the real...

Prabhupāda: Mad-arthe. Mat-para. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam... This is yoga. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. When you take shelter... But these Māyāvādīs... Where is mad-āśrayaḥ? "He is nirākāra." So there is no āśraya. So they cannot perform this yoga because there is no mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśraya loiyā bhaje kṛṣṇa tāre nāhi tyāge.(?) If one takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa and he works under His direction, then he's never forsaken or rejected by Him. He's always under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati. So that should be our duty. We shall act only to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Then our activities are purified, and then we are liberated.

Trivikrama: That requires guru.

Prabhupāda: Unless guru, how you know? Guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot directly meet Kṛṣṇa at the present moment. So this is called vyavasāyātmikā buddhi. If we work under the direction of the representative of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā. You are singing daily. Whatever guru has said, take it seriously. Don't manufacture your ideas. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā.

Indian (1): Just as you have given an example of krodha by Lord Hanumān in burning Laìkā, are there any such instances where lobha could also be personified Lord Kṛṣṇa's desire?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Just like gopīs. They were always hankering: "When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When I shall...? When I shall meet?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. "Oh, I see everything vacant without Govinda." This is ecstasy of lobha, to meet Kṛṣṇa. So when you will be strongly hankering after Kṛṣṇa, lobha, greedy, or devotee, then lobha is properly utilized.

Dr. Patel: When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rasa, what they did?

Prabhupāda: There are so many instances. You can utilize your hankering for Kṛṣṇa and His devotees.

Trivikrama: There's one verse like that, ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ lobha...

Prabhupāda: Laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam. Laulyam, yes, right. That is greediness. Laulyam. The verse is by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He advises, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you purchase. If it is available somewhere, immediately purchase it." So the next question is, if you want to purchase something, you must pay the price. So therefore said that "The price is laulyam, greediness. How I shall become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" That is price. "How I shall?" Oh, that I can very easily. No. Na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate. "If one has done pious activities for many, many births, he also cannot have this greediness." It is so rare. But if you have got that greediness, you get Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Intense greediness.

Prabhupāda: Intense greediness. So one may think, "Oh, I can be very greedy." So the answer is na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate.

Devotee (1): If a human being can try repeatedly, showing kāma, krodha, lobha, moha... He keeps on trying to get over it...

Prabhupāda: That is negative side.

Devotee (1): ...and again keeps on trying...

Prabhupāda: That is negative side. First of all... Just like mauna... (break) Why maunam? There is no need of maunam. You have to chant. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā. So there is negative side and positive side. One who has no information of the positive side, they simply take the negative side. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagan mithyā is all right, but where is that brahma satyam? That brahma satyam is here, when you are fully engaged in serving. Brahma satyam does not mean I simply make negative this, and there is no engagement. That brahma satyam will not endure. You'll fall down, because you are active. If you have no engagement, then you fall down again. Just like a child, he is engaged in playing always, but engage him in studying. If he gets little interest, then automatically he gives up playing. But if you simply stop playing, then he will become mad, because activity is there. These Māyāvādī philosophers, they do not know this. They simply take the negative thing--this material engagement, zero, Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. And that nirvāṇa is another word, nirviśeṣa. That will not help us. There must be varieties and there must be positive life, and that is bhakti. So without bhakti you cannot stop your nonsense activities, neither...

Dr. Patel: (Hindu) But even you get the same thing by (Hindi). So Vaiṣṇava cult is easier than getting the mind blank and then getting all in the... Because here your mind is engaged to Lord Himself. It is... We call as samādhi.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Just like a man is observing Ekādaśī, fasting. Another, in the hospital, he's also fasting. So these two fastings, they are different.

Dr. Patel: Here fasting of all the senses and applying to God.

Prabhupāda: For satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. And there compulsory fasting, but he has got desire. So paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When you get better taste, when you stop this nonsense for better taste, that is positive. Artificially, if you do, it will not benefit.

 

Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career.

Trivikrama: Jumping over the head.

Prabhupāda: Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained--guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain...

Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise they will not be... All avatāras behave like common men.

Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict... A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.

Indian (3): Guru's chastise is the mercy.

Prabhupāda: Śiṣyaṁ ca putraṁ ca tāòayen na tu lālayet. That is Cāṇakya Paṇòita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them."

Dr. Patel: Tāòayet may be returned.

Prabhupāda: Tāòayet means taraṇa, chastisement.

Indian (4): Actually we were so rapt, we wish to be beaten by your stick on our head.

Prabhupāda: Śiṣya, this word, very word, means voluntarily accepting the chastisement. This word, śiṣ, śās, śās-dhātu... From śās-dhātu comes śāstra. Śastra means weapon. So weapon is meant for maintaining peace and order. And śāstra. Śāsana. These are the derivation from original root... Śiṣya. Śiṣya means who has voluntarily accepted to be chastised and ruled by the spiritual master.

Dr. Patel: Śikṣā means instruction. So the one who takes the instruction in śiṣya. Śikṣā.

Prabhupāda: To obey. Śiṣya means to obey, discipline.

Dr. Patel: Live under the paternity of guru to learn.

Prabhupāda: Yes, voluntarily giving him the right to rule over.

 

Room Conversation                                     Bombay, January5, 1976                                                             472054

Prabhupāda: They take it trifle. Husband and wife who are fighting, dam-pate kalahe caiva bambharambhe laghu kriya.(?) If there is fight between husband and..., it will be... The show will be very big, and the result will be nil. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. "Never come to me! I shall not see your face! If you come, I shall kill you!" So on, so on. Then next moment they are talking. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. These are taken very lightly, no seriously. Now they are going... Nowadays, in the court case, fifty percent of cases are divorce in India.

Hari-śauri: Same in the West.

Prabhupāda: And that is also younger age, no old. Old age, they are never... There is no such case. Only younger generation, within thirties, twenty to thirty, they are fighting.

Hari-śauri: Even in the West, the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't allow divorce. The Church of England was started on that because Henry VIII didn't like his wife, and he wanted to divorce, and the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't let him. So then he did do, so they excommunicated him. So then he started his own church and made up his own laws. Otherwise, now there's a big push in Italy for divorce and everything, but even in the last ten years there's been no divorce. They don't allow it. And chastity of the woman was still very greatly appreciated too.

Prabhupāda: Woman infidel, they are stoned among the Muhammadans. Christian also. "You have done..." Woman proved unchaste, she was punished. Is it not? The public would stone and kill. You know that punishment? Stoning?

Hari-śauri: Stoning, yes. It's mentioned a lot in early Christian times. They used to stone.

Prabhupāda: Everyone will throw a stone. Very tortuous death, stoning.

                                                                                                                                                                        471741

Prabhupāda: So I have told them "Any amount I can invest. You print book and sell." That is my open secret. Print books, and distribute, and spend half in whichever life you do and half, again print books. That is my ambition (vision?). I want to see our philosophy is widely spread by different literatures. That I want to do.

 

 

 

Morning Walk                                               January 6, 1976, Bombay                                                          472117

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our concern, how the world is misdirected. That we are challenging, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not that "East," "West," "you," "I." Everyone is a victim. Bhāgavata says, prāyena kalau asmin yuga-jana: "In this age everyone is condemned." It doesn't say that "These Eastern, Western..." Everyone is condemned. Kalau asmin yuga-jana. That is impartial.

                                                                                                                                                                        472150

Prabhupāda: They should come. Every evening they should come, as many as possible. Give them prasādam. Our mission is to induce them to chant and take prasādam. Then, next stage, if they want to work with us, it is welcome. If not, we shall go on giving prasādam and induce them to chant. This is our mission.

Mahāṁsa: The village people are very happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be. That I want. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is our mission.

Mahāṁsa: The stone-cutting has also started.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's nice.

Mahāṁsa: They're doing very well.

Prabhupāda: Here we're inviting everyone, "Come here. Live here. Take prasādam and chant. Don't drink tea. That's all." (chuckles) That is... Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: "No tea?"

Prabhupāda: No tea, no cigarette. That is their disease. No tea, no... Don't stop prasādam. Never. Increase. I shall beg and supply you money. Don't worry. But don't waste it. Simply you take money and utilize it for preaching. My only anxiety is that don't be extravagant. Otherwise you take money and spend it.

Mahāṁsa: Don't be extravagant.

Prabhupāda: You should always know that hard-earned money is... By working at night I am producing book, and they're working there hard, selling the books, and money is coming in that way. So either he or me, mine or yours, it is hard-earned money. It is not easily coming. And therefore we should be cautious. But there is no question of curtailing. There is no question.

Mahāṁsa: Now we are in the process of making a brochure so that we can present to trusts and foundations for bigger donations for the farm project.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. They have amassed money. Let them spend for this village organization. This is real Gandhi's program. He wanted this village organization. But because they manufactured their own way, it was not successful. But if we follow this principle, it will be successful, without any doubt. These big, big āśrama... Gandhi's āśrama is vacant. No. They are getting money, but they have no such program.

                                                                                                                                                                        472185                                                                                                                                    These rascals, they do not understand what is actual science, how things are going on, how the laws of nature is working. Simply superficially, "We have got some ideas." Fundamentally they have no knowledge. So we are trying to enlighten them with our teeny effort. Although it is single-handed, still it is genuine. If you kindly try to understand the whole philosophy--the first thing is, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā, the whole world is now being conducted by blind leaders. And they're keeping people in darkness because they are themselves in darkness. They do not know what is light. So they do not know what is the object of life, what is the destination of life. Simply in blind faith they have created so many isms. It is simply misleading. It is little difficult to understand that we are simply leading others... That's a fact, that's a fact. If you impersonally try to understand this philosophy that every man is kept in the darkness of a different stamp, different ism. That is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir, after death you have to change your body. Then where is your ism? Whole ism changed. That they do not understand. They're so much in darkness, mūòha. "Today I am very great national leader, my country, my..." So on, so on. And tomorrow by the laws of nature if I become a dog in Europe, then where is my nationalism? And it is possible. What is called? Because you are under nature's law, you are not independent. Therefore they have given up this idea that there is life after death. This is their first ignorance. Everyone is thinking that this life is everything for twenty years or thirty years or hundred years--eat, drink, be merry, enjoy then everything is finished. The whole Russian people, they think like that. Not whole, I don't, I cannot say but the learned, their learned professors, they think like that. The life is ended after this body. So our people also, our these politicians, they also think like that. So this is the platform of ignorance. And people are so much (indistinct), born into this ignorance. It is very, very difficult to raise them from this ignorance. This is our task. The first business is to convince him that "Your life continues." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. But it is very difficult for the modern man to understand. They have been so poorly educated that it is very difficult. But this is the first beginning of knowledge and if we are in the conception that "I am this body and the body is everything," then we are no better that the cats and dogs. So this is a movement to raise people from the platform of cats' and dogs' life. It is little difficult but we have to do it. That is our mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, para-upakāra. They're living like cats and dogs, do something good for them so that they may live like actual human beings. This is our... So you kindly stay here for some days, read our books and if there is any question, doubt, I shall be very glad to enlighten you. But this is the fact, the whole world is misguided by the rascal leaders, I must say that. Andhā, andhā is the last word of rascaldom, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā. If I say (to) somebody, "You are rascal." There is maybe, partially he may be intelligent. But when we say andhā, andhā, then his life is... He cannot see anything. So that is the description given by Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. They are durāśayā, hopelessly hopeful, trying to adjust things--bahir-artha-māninaḥ--by external energy. Simply wasting time, it cannot be. This is the position. So we are trying little bit and if you help us, it is very kind of you. Everyone should help this movement, prāṇair arthair virair arcair, by sacrificing life, artha money, and intelligence. So you have moved amongst the higher circle, what is the opinion of our government men about this movement?

                                                                                                                                                                        472246

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple (indistinct). Temple means preaching center. This Gurukula I have made for temple (indistinct) center. Now they have made it but that (indistinct). Purpose is, that whole world in the neophyte stage, they will (indistinct), man-manā bhava mad..., think of Kṛṣṇa, offering obeisances, offer (indistinct) from the persons maintaining the temple (indistinct). Therefore they do not like that a temple should be constructed, it is waste of... (indistinct) ...must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting that "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals, just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and (indistinct) spiritual understanding. This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce, enjoy, invent so many things for sense gratification." Western civilization. And this is very attractive to the rākṣasa class. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. This is the rākṣasa mentality. As soon as there is television, or similar invention, they become very much enthused. They purchase and sitting down, they waste their time. I have seen in America the old man of family, one dog, one television, simply wasting time. And 50 cents for eat. How they are wasting the valuable human life. How they are kept in the darkness. This is life. I have seen television. All some fictitious stories.

 

Evening Darsan                                           January 7, 1977, Bombay                                                            472386

Bring that telegram. In one week how many books we have sold? Because they're hankering after this knowledge. This is Indian culture, or some dancing party goes, that is Indian culture?

D. D. Desai: Presently you are...

Prabhupāda: I am not imitating them. Of course, all credit to Vivekananda. But Vivekananda learned something from them: how to eat meat. And introduced amongst the sannyāsīs that "There is no harm in eating meat." So Vivekananda learned something from them. And I have gone to--"Forget meat-eating." That is the difference. These boys, these young boys... Just see how they have become Vaiṣṇava.

D. D. Desai: Would it be all right to open the window?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, you can open the fan, one point. This is the real culture, original culture of India, and they are accepting it. Why not government come to my help? Without any help I am doing so much.

D. D. Desai: This is exceptionally, I would say, very creditable. When you say...

Prabhupāda: We are increasing. There is opposition against our movement, and still, we are increasing.

D. D. Desai: When you say, "We are poor..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, so-called poor.

D. D. Desai: That's it. Because the other day when I was reading Howard Hughes and his billion-dollar life, and then also Poli(?), I can say this much, that some of our poorest of Indians are far better off than these gentlemen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, culturally we are better off. Materially, we are certainly very poor. But because we are culturally advanced, even the actual poor man, he does not feel that he is in poverty.

D. D. Desai: Yes, that is the case. That is... There is a basic grace in poverty.

Prabhupāda: That is...

yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ

yasmin sthite na duḥkhena guruṇāpi vicālyate

This is culture. "So long I have got money, I am very happy." No! "If there is not a single farthing, still, I'll be happy." That is real culture. That can be done That is possible when one is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He went to the forest to ask Kṛṣṇa to give him a very nice kingdom, but when he met Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa--He wanted to give him benediction--he said, svamin kṛtartho 'smi varaṁ na yace: "Bas, no more vara." So we have got such things. Guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. Never disturbed. That is culture. And "So long I have got money in the pocket, I am very happy"--that is dog civilization.

                                                                                                                                                                        472409

We have got good rooms like this, not that one has to go to the forest. Even in the Vṛndāvana we have got very good room, but nobody's coming. This is the position. After fiftieth year, voluntarily one must commit civil suicide--no family. And that is Vedic. But he will think of family up to the point of being killed by this revolver. This is going on. Even Gandhi, what to speak of others. He presented himself as very tyāgī, but unless he was killed, he did not give up his ambition. "How my sons, how my countrymen will be happy?" And what happiness you can give? You are not God. Who is taking care of them? But this is māyā. He was thinking, "If I am not there, then whatever I have got, it will be finished."

 

Room Conversation                                     January 7, 1977, Bombay                                                            472416

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What he will do, more payment? (?) Then he will kill. This sex life in this material world is so strong, even in the heavenly planets. Big, big ṛṣis. Sex life with animals also there is... Sex life is so strong. Man cohabiting with animal. It makes blind. Vyāsadeva made one of her (his) students pregnant, what to speak of ourselves. Vyāsadeva was born, Satyavatī. She was low class. Although she was born by a king, but her mother was a low-class fisherwoman. And the fisherman raised her as daughter. And Parāśara Muni became attracted. And Vyāsadeva was born. Sex affairs, just see, in the highest circle. Bṛhaspati, the spiritual master of the devatās, he became so much mad for his brother's wife who was pregnant, and forcibly they had sex. Just see. These are examples. Brahmā became attracted with his daughter. Lord Śiva became attracted with the beauty of Mohinī-mūrti, even in the presence of his wife. So this sex life can be controlled only by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise there is no... The Bhāgavata has discussed all this because in this material world there is no escape unless we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, from the sex impulse. It is not possible. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... When one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he'll reject all this nonsense: "What is this?" Bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu. He'll spite (spit): "Eh! Get out. Is that enjoyment?" It is possible for a Kṛṣṇa conscious... No other can do it. And that is the bondage. He'll have to work hard for maintaining sex issues. And so long you are bound up by the karmas, you have to accept another body and then continue. Who knows this how we are bound up and conditioned? If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyāsīs. And those sannyāsīs who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your gṛhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentlemen with tilaka and śikhā are speaking. That is very prestigious everywhere. Why this false dress? What is the wrong to become gṛhastha? I was gṛhastha, pākā caliber gṛhastha. My Guru Mahārāja was brahmacārī, This is ever... Just see his character. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was gṛhastha, but when He took sannyāsa: "Oh, I am now..." For sober person. That is wanted. That is ideal. He married twice. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura married twice. Caitanya Mahāprabhu married twice. What is the wrong there? One has to become pure devotee, that's all. Other things, of course, are circumstantially favorable, either a gṛhastha, brahmacārī or vānaprastha or sannyāsa. Kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That makes you guru, not this dress. So what you are thinking of American program? Do it seriously. Balavanta is very expert. And all of you are expert. And do it seriously and systematically, not change the position, this side and this, change. That's not good. That makes fickle. Strength of mind wanted.

Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, I was thinking of taking books, going from town to town, and finding interested people and then...

Prabhupāda: Everyone will be interested.

Jagadīśa: Yes. And stay for some time in one place, find some local people, train them up cooking...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is good.

Jagadīśa: ...kīrtana, speaking, reading the books...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted.

Jagadīśa: ...and let them set up a small center in their house or purchase one storefront.

Prabhupāda: If one is convinced about this favorably, that is success. It doesn't matter what dress. Let him teach his family, and the neighborhood. Let them do their own business. It doesn't matter. That is... Let them understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa science. That is wanted. Do that program. Make that program. He is coming, Rāmeśvara. Take to it very seriously.

                                                                                                                                                                        472455

Prabhupāda: This cow's milk in Bengal, it is compulsory--before beginning your meal, little cow milk, er, ghee mixed with rice and smashed potato. It is very nice.

Dr. Patel: And then we do serve..., after that we take out a part of it for the cow back, and a little for...

Prabhupāda: Ālu bharte bharta. (?) In Bengal it is called ālu bharte bharta. If you don't have anything, just have smashed potato, little ghee and rice. That's it. It is sufficient, very nutritious. And at last, little milk. Very nutritious.

Dr. Patel: Now there is shortage of all the important material the world over. The way we are exploiting the earth, perhaps we'll be short, falling short of everything.

Prabhupāda: Therefore our Trivikrama Mahārāja is reminding me... When I was lecturing in Berkeley University, one Indian student asked me, "Swamijī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will benefit? We require technology." So I replied that "You have come to beg technology; I have come to give them, not to beg from them."

Trivikrama: To teach. "I've come to give."

Dr. Patel: I understand. The modern materialistic, I mean, advancement of society with this modern technology will, I mean...

Prabhupāda: No, even from that point of view, I was taking aeroplane. Aeroplane was flying. So we admit this is contribution of the Western technology. But it is not safe. But what I am giving, it is safe. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato... So our, this contribution of India's culture and this contribution, far different. That is not safe. At any moment you'll be finished. But here--svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This Manipur state is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. And these people say that three thousand years before, there was no civilization.

Trivikrama: Now they're changing.

Dr. Patel: In Manipur where Arjuna made...

Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana. And Babhruvāhana was the king's daughter's son, so he remained as the adopted son of the king. Putrikā-suta. He had no son so he took the daughter's son. So this is India's... The kṣatriyas, they're not (indistinct), and some śūdras are ruling.

Dr. Patel: The śūdras are ruling the world over, not only in India. Because Nixon was less than a śūdra, they way he carried out himself, the highest authority of the most advanced state materialistically.

Prabhupāda: Now they are going to take care of it, these brāhmaṇas.

Dr. Patel: But he made a very bad show. The place where a man like...

Prabhupāda: Washington.

Dr. Patel: Washington and people like Jefferson. He has polluted that seat. They must change that seat. Change the White House wholesale. The greatest curr on this most, I mean, enlightened people. Americans are very enlightened because their forefathers were enlightened and they came there as pilgrims. Those, what do they call them? Puritans, you see. They are most different from Aussies. The Australians who are criminals of England.

Prabhupāda: If Nixon is a Jew?

Dr. Patel: No, no. He's a Christian. No Jew can be, serve as the president of that country. Not only Jew but not only Catholic.

Trivikrama: Well, some Catholics. Kennedy was...

Dr. Patel: Only Kennedy was the first Catholic to be. Otherwise till Kennedy came, there was no Catholic ever elected. (break) Methodist. Even in material world, he was a fool the way he carried out... (laughing) But sir, one thing: about the freedom of America. I have my hat off that that man could be knocked off by ordinary paper reporter. That would not happen in any other country.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked to take the government.

Dr. Patel: That would not happen in any other country but America, freedom par excellence.

Prabhupāda: There is possibility of Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will take the government.

Dr. Patel: That can be possible because of freedom, essential freedom of that country.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are being checked that "They may not grow." One politician has said that "If they grow like this, in ten years they'll take the government."

Trivikrama: Someone has said that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He said. Some politician has said that "The Hare Kṛṣṇa people are growing so rapid, like epidemic." He has said. "And if they grow like this within ten years they may take our government." He has remarked it.

                                                                                                                                                                        472635

Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't hate dog. We say that this life is meant for getting release from this repetition of birth and death. Otherwise punaḥ punaś carvita... Either you become a dog or a hog or a man or a god. The business is āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithuna... (break) (bell rings)

 

Prabhupāda: That one thing is that this sort of publicity and this, this dress, is very nice. Girls who have no husband, they should dress like this, not attractive dress. A dress sometimes attracts the opposite sex. And women are... By nature they dress very nicely. (laughs) That is everywhere--to attract. The nature is that they are dependent, woman by nature. Do you admit or not?

Pālikā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the Western countries, they have been taught to become independent. That is artificial. That is all artificial. So, woman by nature... Manu-saṁhitā says, na striyaṁ svatantram arhati: "Women should not be given independence." They must be protected by the father, by husband, and by elderly sons. They are not independent. No independence. Even Kuntī, the mother of such big, big sons, she was not independent. The sons were sent to the exile; mother also went. Sītā... The father-in-law never said that "You also go with your husband." No. He requested Rāmacandra that "Your stepmother wants that You should be exiled. So please accept it. Accept this." And Rāmacandra said that "You are not exiled." But Sītā said, "I may not be exiled, but I am dependent on You. If You go to the forest I must..." You see? Just see, dependent.

Jagadīśa: Most of the women, or at least many of the women in our society, have neither father, husband or sons.

Prabhupāda: It is very precarious condition. So we want to give them, all of them, "Come and live." But when you come here, if you get husband we have no objection. But don't canvass. That is not good. And that is making our sannyāsīs fall down. Of course, it is difficult, that young men, young women living, intermingling. But it is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to reform everything. Even there there is such desire it should be checked. And that can be checked if one is strictly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise not possible. So these things should be... Because the Kali-yuga, the more it advances, people will be suffering in so many ways. And the only solace is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, only solution. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he (she) doesn't require husband. He (she) does not require. He... She knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my protector. Why shall I artificially seek after father or...?" And what protection, for a few days either the father or the son or the husband may give? Real protection is Kṛṣṇa. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyāsa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyāsī anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyāsīs. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. After all, young man, fallen down--that's all right. It is by nature's way. But marry that girl. That I am insisting from the very beginning, that no friendly liaison. If you want, get one nice... They are, all of them qualified. Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many gṛhastha devotees. You have got children. Pradyumna has got child. Gopāla has... Live with husband, wife. There is no restriction for husband and wife. But what is this nonsense that you take sannyāsa and make relation with...? This should be completely stopped. And in our, this campus, actually those who are eager to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they should live, nobody else. We give free food, free apartment, cloth and everything. "Come here. Live. As far as possible we shall provide." But this is specially meant for bhagavad-bhajana. Attend ārati, early rise in the morning, attend the functions, take prasādam... In this way everything will be reorganized, not loose things. Then what is the use of...? We have got such a... And so far the tenants are concerned, if it is possible, give them money; let them go. One, two, some have gone, and others... This whole campus should be for devotees. We don't want tenant. And it should be developed for that purpose, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Either here or outside India or anywhere, this principle should be followed. And this hodgepodge association, society, is not the... Let it be very pure. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā. That one moon is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Hm? What do you think? One moon gives light. So, in this way, if we can make one person really Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our mission is successful. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling? What is called? Twinkling? You should discuss all these things,

 

Morning Walk                                              January 8, 1977, Bombay                                                           472848

Prabhupāda: Woman's nature is the same everywhere. In spite of your women being so elevated, Cāṇakya Paṇòita has said, "You don't trust them." Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. That means nature is the same.

Dr. Patel: It is a system of custom.

Prabhupāda: And Urvaśī was explaining Purūravā about woman's nature...

Dr. Patel: That sanctity of fact, not to us.

Prabhupāda: Fortunately, our men cannot have sex cult even up to the point of death.

Dr. Patel: What I mean to say is that we have...

Prabhupāda: Our, if you say, "our," so if one is sticking to the sex cult up to the point of death, he's not "our."

Dr. Patel: Sex cult...

Prabhupāda: Sex cult, yes, gṛhamedhī. Who stick into family life, that is sex cult. It has no other meaning. It is a concession of sex. To remain in household life means a concession of sex.

Devotee: So now you are sixty-five...

Dr. Patel: No, that is not sex. I am prepared to oppose you for hear.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't hear you. I hear the śāstra.

Dr. Patel: No, but this is also śāstra. Please let me...

Prabhupāda: Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. No, maithuna, but maithuna products. You are attached to your sons and daughters. That is maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: That way we are attached to our bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Either maithuna... Just like Gandhi. The same thing, a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: Our body is also maithuna product.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is the first instruction: "Don't be attached to this body." So if we remain attached up to the point of death to the maithuna or maithuna product, then the same illusion. That is said.

Dr. Patel: So you have to leave the body consciousness and become soul conscious perpetually. It is...

Prabhupāda: And that soul consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. So... But in the soul consciousness...

Dr. Patel: Becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ, you have to worship Parabrahman Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Cent percent Kṛṣṇa consciousness is liberation. Hitvā 'nyathā...

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā.

Prabhupāda: That is beginning.

Dr. Patel: He gets the highest bhakti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu...

Prabhupāda: No, Brahma-bhūtaḥ... Where is that brahma-bhūtaḥ?

Dr. Patel: Then he mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Then he gets the real... Otherwise body conscious people cannot do the bhakti without becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ.

Dr. Patel: That is what I was telling you. And everyone was śarīre kuṇape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless one is brahma-bhūtaḥ, there is no question of advancing in spiritual life. (break) ...parihṛtya kartam.

devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitèṇāṁ

nāyam ṛṇī na kiìkaro rājan

sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ

gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam

Finished, no more duty: "I simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He is liberated. Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam. "I have no more duty." That is the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, when one thinks, prasannātmā, "Why I am suffering this unnecessary...?" (break) Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitèṇām. (break) Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. One, if he is gṛha-vrata, he goes to guru or not guru--he'll never be reformed. Gṛha-vratānām: one who has taken this vow that this home is everything, gṛha-vrata. Vrata means taken vow: "It is my only duty." Matir na kṛṣṇe. He cannot place his mind unto Kṛṣṇa, matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā, either by good advice of guru or personal, svataḥ, na mithaḥ, nor by meeting, sat-saìga, so-called sat-saìga, because the real disease is gṛha-vrata.

Dr. Patel: No, that is right, sir. But there are...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the gṛha-vrata... If we keep ourself gṛha-vrata, then either guru or personally or by sat-saìga, nothing will help us. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed. (break) Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśaya ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. If one is trying to be happy by material adjustment, that is durāśayā. It will never be.... (break) Yāvan na ghṛnita mahīyasāṁ pada-rājobhiṣekam. Yavan na ghrnita. Bhāgavata śloka, each word, each line, concentrated. Vyāsadeva's contribution, last thing; by Nārada's upadeśa. And this is the only means of anarthopaśamam. You have created anarthas, and human life is meant for arthadam. But.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. So therefore real Vedic civilization is that gradually we have to give up this gṛha-vrata position. At one time you must voluntarily give up. Although I do not like to give up, still, by the order of the śāstra, one has to give up. Païcasordhvam vanam vrajet. Vrajet means compulsory. Just like we accept so many things compulsory, similarly, to give up family attachment after fiftieth year, that is compulsory. We therefore invite all the compulsory, what is called, renouncement. Of course, nobody can go to the forest. That is not possible. They are not trained up as a brahmacārī. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa Land--"Come on." All the vānaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana and no other purpose, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ, making all other purposes zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam. Jïāna and karma, these are bondage. Karmī, jïānī, yogi--they are especially bewildered. They want something, but still they say that "I am now renounced." So long there is want, he cannot be renounced. Renounced means no more want. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "I am fully satisfied now. I don't want any..." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. "I have got such a nice thing that I have no aspiration for getting any more." That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Svamin kṛtartho 'smi. So this is Vedic civilization, that at a certain stage one should forget that "I belong to this family, I belong to this society, I belong to this nation, and so on," there are. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. Sva-dhīḥ: "My own men, my kinsmen." This is sva-dhīḥ. And beginning from kalatrādiṣu. Kalatra means wife. Wife is the beginning of expansion. From wife, child; from child to grandchild; grandchild to great-grandchild; and so on, so on. Stri means "which increases." Kalatrādiṣu. (Hindi)

Indian man: Swamiji, I get two thoughts. Number one: having acquired a family, I am willing to renounce, but would I not be running away from the responsibility, in the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, for the bringing up and educating the children? And second thing...

Prabhupāda: You cannot educate, neither you bring. This is māyā. Do you think... Do you think that only in your presence your children will be happy? There are... Just see here in the corner, the father, mother, and the child is always, twenty-four hours, crying. The father, mother, is there. They are poor men, they are taking care, but still, the child is unhappy; it is crying twenty-four hours. There are many you'll find. So does it mean that in the presence of father, mother, a child is happy? Everyone is being conducted by his destiny. The father, mother, may be there or may not be there; his destiny will go on. This is the law of nature. You see here. Do you mean to say, because that man is poor, he's not taking care of the child? Why the child is crying twenty-four hours? So if one child is made to cry by his destiny, even in the presence of his father, mother, he has to cry. Nobody can make him happy. So this is called illusion, that "I am doing." Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. A rascal, he thinks like that. But it is not the fact. The fact is prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ. His destiny or her destiny is to suffer. So even though father, mother... Suppose a rich man's son is sick. He has engaged good physician, good doctor. Does it mean that he will guarantee life? Then what is the principle? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "It is not a fact that when the children are under the protection of father and mother, he's secure." Tvad-upekṣitānām: "If You neglect, that 'This child must cry; this child must die,' then even by the greatest care of the father and mother, he will die." So what is the use, saying that your duty...? Duty? That is māyā.

Indian man: Second thing is...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you understand this. Then bring second thing. That you have no duty. Your only duty is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That is your only duty. But because you are under the mental platform, you are creating duties, so but that also must be finished after certain age. That is compulsory, that "You are very good, responsible man. All right, do your duty up to this. No more duty. No more duty." So this "duty, no duty," this is our creation. We are under fully control of the nature. But we have created our mental concoction: "This is duty. This is good. This is bad." That is our mano-dharma. Real dharma is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is real dharma. And everything is mano-dharma, mental creation. Therefore the Bhāgavata in the beginning it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: "This false dharma is rejected." These are all false dharmas. Real dharma is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But it takes time. Therefore sat-saìga is required. But actually real dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do everything... Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. What Kṛṣṇa wants, we must know it and do it. And this is real dharma.

Dr. Patel: How to know it?

Prabhupāda: You can know from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is open to everyone. If you cannot understand, then go to guru. He will explain to you. "And how to know it?" You cannot say. "Keep to the left" is there. You cannot say that "I did not know the law." You have deviated. Why you have gone to the right? The signboard is there, "Keep to the left." You have gone to the right; you are criminal, must be punished. So Kṛṣṇa comes personally, and He is giving instruction. How can you say, "How to know?" This is criminal. This is criminal to say that you do not know what to do; you do not see God. God has given the law. There is no question how to know. Know it! Tad viddhi praṇipātena. Tad viddhi. Know it! Why you are neglecting? Tad viddhi. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. That, if you do not... What is called? Ignorance of law is no excuse. You cannot say in the court, "Sir, I did not know the law." Aiye. You know or not know; you have violated the law; you must be punished. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Once you know, then everyone is benefited. Your family is not neglected.

Prabhupāda: The ignorance of law... Why? Why this human form of life? To know. Why you do not try to know it? Then you must be punished. Kṛṣṇa said, aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā. "If you are neglectful to know," dharmasyāsya parantapa, "this dharma, this science, this duty, what I am giving..." Aśraddadhānāḥ: "Eh! Bhagavad-gītā is..." Aśraddadhānāḥ. There is no śraddhā. Rascals. "Then the result will be mām aprāpya. He does not get Me." Then what is next? Nivartante: "He goes back." Where? Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Again in the cycle of birth and death, birth and death." Again, after millions and millions of years, he'll come, again get the chance of human body, another chance to know. So this is the chance to know. You cannot expect the dog will know, the cat will know. You have got human being. You must know. The signboard, "Keep to the left," is meant for the human being. If the dog goes from right to the left, he is not to be punished, because he has no knowledge. This is common sense. But you cannot neglect. You are human being. You cannot say, "I did not see the signboard. I did not know the law. Therefore, by chance, I have violated." No. No "by chance." You must be punished. This is the responsibility of... Narottama dāsa Öhākura, therefore, sings, hari hari bifale, janama goìāinu: "I have wasted my time." How? Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā: "I got this human form of life. I did not know what is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu: "Knowingly, I have taken poison." A human being, if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that means knowingly, he is taking poison, and he must die. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Sometimes I do not know what is poison. Just like child does not know. He may take. But he'll not be excused. Even a child takes poison, it does not mean the nature's law will excuse him. No. But.... What to speak of child, a human being, if he takes poison, jāniyā śuniyā, then what is to be...? So in the human form of life, you cannot neglect the instruction of Bhagavān. Then you'll be punished. Severe punishment. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ksipāmy ajasram andhā-yoniṣu.

Dr. Patel: You are thrown in the lower yonis.

Prabhupāda: Lower? Yes, yes. Lower... That is mṛtyu-saṁsāra. Suppose next life I become dog. Then my becoming very big scientist, big lawyer, big this and that, everything finished. But that law is not in your hand. After death, you cannot say, "Mother nature, you are giving this body. I don't like it." No. "It is not in your liking. It is my liking." Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. When you are criminal, you are under the grip of the magistrate. If he puts you in jail, you cannot say that "I don't like." No. You like or not; you must go. Who cares for your liking? Therefore mūòha. Prakṛteḥ. Prakṛti, the laws of nature, is working in its own way. Nobody can change it. But ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā. Those who are rascal, they are thinking, "I am independent. Whatever I like, I can do. There is no God. There is no law." Kartāham iti manyate. That should be avoided, that I am not independent. Means that knowledge is lacking at the present moment. "Whatever I think, I can do. It is private. Religion is private." And big, big swamis are supporting. "Yes, religion is your private."

Dr. Patel: Even the state says "Religion is your private..."

Prabhupāda: Whatever... The rascal says. A rascal says. It is not private. No private-public. It is laws of nature. You have to abide by that. The nature's law is "Now winter. You have to cover your body." There is no second law. So that is wanting, that we are... The present defect is that every one of us under the laws of God or nature, whatever you say. And still, we are declaring independence. This is the defect. Prakrti-stho 'pi.

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho 'hi

bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya

sad-asad janma-yoniṣu

Sad-asad-janma. Why? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. He's associating with the different modes of material of nature, infecting, and that is the cause one is born as demigod, one is born as dog, one is born as tree, one is born as human being. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. Therefore we should associate with sat-saìga. Sat-saìga chāòi kāinu, asate vilāsa, te karaṇe lāgi more, karma bandha phāṇsa. Because we have given up sat-saìga--oṁ tat sat--Kṛṣṇa's saìga, we are entangled in this asat-saìga. And that is the cause of my karma-bandha phāṇsa. Sat-saìga chāòi kāinu, asate vilāsa: "I wanted to enjoy with asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. Therefore I'm entangled.

Dr. Patel: Sat-saìga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that śāstras, also is a sat-saìga.

Prabhupāda: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. That is also vidhilīn: "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru."

Dr. Patel: But, sir, instead of reading no books of knowledge, if you read Bhāgavata or Bhagavad-gītā, it is a sort of a sat-saìga, and that develops. Someday he'll go to a guru. He'll find out.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if he reads Bhāgavata, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He is on the way up.

Prabhupāda: If he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He's a sat-saìgi.

Prabhupāda: Satāṁ prasaìgān mama vīrya-samvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Unless you discuss Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā, with sat-saìga, devotees, it does not become relishable. Therefore he's not attached. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ. In another verse.... Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit. He may read one literature very decoratively written, very interesting, but there is no discussion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yad vacaḥ citra-padam, very decorative. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit: "But there is no glorification of the Lord." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham: "Such kind of literature is enjoyable by such persons who are like crows."

Dr. Patel: Why?

Prabhupāda: Crows.

Dr. Patel: Why crows?

Prabhupāda: Crows will never come to a nice place. They'll go to the filthy place, where everything rubbish is thrown out. The crow will take advantage of it: "Oh, here is enjoyable thing." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. So we have been educated to become vāyasa, crows, useless black bird. There are other birds also, but these... Amongst the birds, these crows are most disliked by everyone. So our present literature and taste of literature is like that, crows. "Ka, ka, ka, ka." Even amongst the birds, they'll find swan, white swan. And they're black crows. Nature's division is so nice. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā. That is rejected by the mānasā. Mānasā means the birds who live in the māna-sarovara, just like ducks and swans.

Dr. Patel: Haṁsas.

Prabhupāda: Haṁsas. They live in a very nice clean water, garden. Uśanti mānasā. They do not go there. Now they are making so much propaganda against our men, but these boys will never go to cinema. Uśanti mānasā. They are boys. They have no attraction, restaurant and cinema. You'll never find. Uśanti mānasā. They have rejected. And we see others--they are making line, queue. Yes. Why? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham. They like that. Crows like... They have been educated like crows.

Dr. Patel: They feed on the filth. This is one difficulty. All people are mad after the cinema.

Prabhupāda: They will wait four hours, five hours, standing. Why cinema? I have seen in London the British Museum. Something came there. From morning there is a queue. Exactly like that, they were standing to go and see the museum. Something came. I... Three, four years ago I saw. They were standing. Just like here. For purchasing the cinema ticket they are standing and eating nampalli, just to see, eyesight. They will not come to see Deity in the temple. They'll not come. Mentality is different. It is a very dangerous civilization, soul-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also. We shall go now? (end)

There is chance of being accepted all over the world.

 

Then you are success. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. This is success. Kṛṣṇa says, "Do this."

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-sambudbhavaḥ

Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. We have the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to do this. It is not fashion. It is the fact, sir. And those who want to become immediately paramahaṁsa...

 

We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere.

 

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you."

 

Your son, you take care. Now, as soon as you make a committee to take care of your son, then everything is finished. Is it not? The committee members will finish the son and the son's maintenance and everything. But that is going on. Formerly there was one monarch. He was acting according to the Vedic instruction. So he was responsible

 

...take agriculture, you must keep cows. Both of them are related.

Girirāja: Together.

Prabhupāda: The cow will be subsisting on the grass, and refused things he'll take. And the substance you take. And even if does not give milk, the stool is useful. And you get food grown by the cows and bulls and milk. You subsist. So by mutual cooperation you subsist. You save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why you are bothered?

Girirāja: No bother.

Prabhupāda: This I want to introduce.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. I try to write. I explained in that verse, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. I've touched all the points in the modern...

Pradyumna: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on land and cows."

Prabhupāda: That idea I'm still maintaining. Yes… Therefore I want to organize this farm project. Let there be ideal. And it is becoming ideal in America. People are coming even from the school, college, they are coming to see New Vrindaban. And there was section where our enemies, they are not disturbing. So they are appreciating. Still we are not thoroughly organized, but still they're appreciating. They'll appreciate. One day will come they'll appreciate.

 

Cleanliness is the first necessity. That is hygienic, spiritual, and calm, quiet. India has got special facility to remain clean. Only in this country you can take thrice bathing. In other countries... Easy there. In your country there is hot water. There is no difficulty if one practices. I think our men have such practice. But this cleanness is this taking bathing at least twice. That keeps a man very clean… So if it is practiced, it keeps health very nice. I was taking all along. Since I was attacked, heart, they said you should be kept from catching cold.

 

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...family's needs, clothing, this, that. It becomes a problem, where to get the money from. But otherwise...

Prabhupāda: And that is also different standard. People are not satisfied with simple living.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So they want...

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is certain age, that "At this age no more such ambition, material. Lead simple life and advance." That is after fiftieth year. This is our Vedic system. In the beginning it is not possible, but by practicing...

 

The same feeling as a person, individual person thinking of his family, these people are thinking of his country, a big family, not for the whole living entities, jīva. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

It is not at all difficult. The principles, the regulation we have started, it will automatically bring them to that stage.

 

"I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious?

 

Who cares for them? They are not serious for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization.

 

Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead--there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth.

 

No, I don't take. I... Since 1970, 1966, '67, I am not taking cold bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath…I never used hot water. In India the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised. "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, I was taking cold water early in the morning.

 

India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture.

 

Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyāsī, then get yourself married…That is his choice. But we say that "Don't be hypocrite." That's all. If he thinks now he'll be able to continue as a sannyāsī, he'll not fall down, he'll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyāsī, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Kṛṣṇa. Why should you give up Kṛṣṇa's service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned gṛhasthas. If sannyāsa is not suitable for you, you remain as a gṛhastha. What is the wrong there?

 

There is no consideration of big profit. Simply we want big number, distribution. That's all…Big number, as big as possible. My Guru Mahārāja, he had magazines in six languages: English, Hindi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, and one Bengali daily. So if our men complained that "Such and such men are not giving their subscription, so, what we can do? Stop the supply?" Oh, he would become very angry. He asked them, "Are you commercial-hired fools? No! Supply free!" He used to say like that. He was asking, "Whether we shall stop supply? The subscription is not coming." So immediately he became angry: "Are you commercial-hired? If he's not giving price, supply him free." That was his policy. So less perfect or..., try to see how many numbers of books… And open center village to village, town to town. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. See first printing is very first class and it is distributed very widely.

 

And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it.

 

Rāmeśvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards.

Prabhupāda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.

 

Rāmeśvara: It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America...

Prabhupāda: That we want.

 

It is due to quality of the leaders.

 

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple.

Prabhupāda: Simple and it is natural also.

 

Our leaders must be very good.

 

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.

Prabhupāda: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture.

 

The chanting has got spiritual power. That will rectify everything. Even there is misunderstanding, it will be rectified. That is spiritual power.

 

Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice... Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm.

 

No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.

Hari-śauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it's ready to do that?

Prabhupāda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa)

 

Hari-śauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this.

Prabhupāda: They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society.

 

And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is--what is called?--bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being?

 

Rāmeśvara: Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers.

Prabhupāda: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower.

Rāmeśvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp.

 

So you get more income. For using it, let them come and take prasādam. Don't accumulate money.

 

No, dhotī, I don't say. You have nice coat-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that "You put on dhotī." But those who are sannyāsīs, brahmacārīs, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyāsī.

 

Spend it for prasāda distribution. Don't squander it. Every cent should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa, not for sense gratification.

Rāmeśvara: They're always complaining that there's not enough money for food distribution in India.

Prabhupāda: So kindly send me as much as possible. Therefore these farming projects will be very nice.

 

The land may be yours, but if I plow on it and produce food grains, that is mine.

 

So much land lying vacant. Yajïād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. There is no yajïa. Therefore there is no rain. (break) ...and it will increase. Because the people will increase their godlessness, so the rainfall will stop. Now lick up your motorcar.

 

We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.

 

Unless one is animal-killer, everyone welcomes God. This very word is used, vinā paśughnāt. Excepting these persons who are animal killers, everyone will welcome Kṛṣṇa. It is so nasty thing, animal-killing.

 

Most rubbish civilization, modern misleading, soul-killing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Kṛṣṇa's business. …We must be sincere to Kṛṣṇa that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Kṛṣṇa.

 

You cannot expect everyone to be brahminical qualification. We are neither brāhmaṇa nor... We do not belong to any sect, but Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, we can do anything. That, because we are doing some business, we are not vaiśyas. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was agriculturist. So that does not mean he was a (sic) Vaiṣṇava. But professionally, externally, he looked like a vaiśya.

 

Now, my project is that we shall actually give them food, shelter and...

Rāmeśvara: Cottages, little cottages.

Prabhupāda: And cloth, whatever primary necessities and simple living, and let them chant.

 

Send grains. Send grains, food grains, and we shall utilize it in all our temples and farm projects in the beginning. Then they'll... Naturally they'll produce. As soon as they become little interested in our scheme, they'll give service.

 

And we are not taking any profit. Neither the seller, neither the author is taking any profit.

 

In all our temples the prasāda distribution should be so random (?), that within ten miles nobody should remain hungry

 

But I am not for home. I am for the whole world.

 

 

America has enough money, and India has got enough culture. So they should combine for the benefit of the whole world.

 

 

Why monarchy? You can continue democracy, but the legislators should be first-class men who has knowledge, not these rascals.

 

 

Kṛṣṇa says one who is completely free from sinful life, he can become perfectly a devotee.

 

 

Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm.

 

 

It will grow: It is growing. Simply our workers should be very sincere and strict, and it will it grow. Nobody can check. That's a fact. Simply we have to be very strict and sincere. Then nobody can check….We have got clear vision. We are not putting any theory. We are always presenting fact, and that is materializing. Just like we started this farm. It is materializing gradually. It is not yet fully organized; still, there is hope that it will give peace to the people. There is sufficient hope.

Legislative assembly, the senators, they must be all first-class brāhmaṇas. Otherwise he cannot be elected. This is should be introduced. Unless one is following the brahminical principles, he cannot be elected. He must give up these four principles of sinful life. He should not accept any salary. Very much learned scholar in Vedic literature. Then he will be elected… That will guide the whole nation.

 

They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force: "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all, śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively.

 

This has to be reformed. You cannot avoid these four classes working under the superior instruction of brahminical culture. Then everything... This life successful, next life is back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization, no speculation. The formula is already there. Bhagavad-gītā is the guidance, as it is. "Be happy here, and next life hope. Why you are disappointed? Take this way and be happy." This is our movement. We are not going to exploit anyone. We are giving the right path: "Be happy in this life and next life also." This is our mission. Para upakāra.

 

"Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!"

 

...port an worldwide movement. Very cautiously, very intelligently, we should use our resources, intelligence. This is a worldwide movement.

 

Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. This is the secret of making the world happy. Anārtha. Simply they have created unwanted things, and people are suffering. So in order to cut down these anarthas, unnecessary, unwanted thing, this is the only way…It was written for this purpose. People are suffering by their concocted culture, suffering. And Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Actually it is his mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But I am... I have tried sincerely. I am not qualified, but only qualification is that I tried to do the best. That's all, that much qualification. I had faith in their program, and I thought, "I shall try my best, whatever capacity I have got." That's all. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve tathā gurau. Little confident that "Why? If Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it, my Guru Mahārāja wants it, why it will not be successful? Let me try." That's all. Mukhaṁ karoti vācālaṁ panguṁ laìghayate girim: "A dumb man can become orator." (laughs) It is like that.

 

That barter system. You have got rice; I have got something else. So I give you something; you give me something.

 

And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products. That's all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.

Rāmeśvara: Weaving, cloth.

Prabhupāda: Everything I get. So I haven't got to go outside for exchange. If you are satisfied in your farm--I am satisfied--then where is question of exchange? There is no need of artificial... So this banking, "fanking," everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to keep money in the bank?

Hari-śauri: Who needs it?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also collapsed.

Hari-śauri: This is revolutionary.

Rāmeśvara: It's very hard for the mind to...

Prabhupāda: No, simply do this.

Rāmeśvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever it may be... We should be satisfied locally by our food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell. We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do. But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.

 

No artificial dealing. Purge out.

 

 

 

 

We keep the ideal style of life. YOU LEARN AND DO IT. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but if you want to be happy, you follow. This is our process. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you make minus Kṛṣṇa consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: Only if the chanting and prasādam is there.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."

Hari-śauri: A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things.

Prabhupāda: So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar.

Prabhupāda: No, everything--Deity worship, chanting, kīrtana, preaching, publishing, distributing--everything.

 

Anything artificial, it will break. You cannot make a scheme of mental concoction. That will not endure. You take standard it will be beneficial. The whole world is in chaotic condition because they have so many artificial way of living.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to be happy…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME TWENTY NINE

Room Conversation(2)                                 January 8, 1977, Bombay                                                           472902

Prabhupāda: There is chance of being accepted all over the world. There is now opposition, and some of the politicians, they're of opinion that "This culture, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is spreading like epidemic, and if we do not check, in ten years time they'll take the government."

Guest (1) (Indian man): Of America.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) That there is possibility because these young men, they are taking. So everywhere revolution takes place by young men. So if it is actually spreading like epidemic, and young men, they are taking part, so within ten years it is not impossible.

Guest (1): It's a very good idea, then, to follow it. I'm quite serious.

Prabhupāda: And they are democratic. It can pull down even a President like Nixon. So if they like, if the majority becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, they can make Kṛṣṇa conscious government. There is no, I mean to say, wonder in it. So anyway, because these youngsters in the Western countries, both in Europe and America, are taking... And the recent telegram we have received... Just see how many books we have sold. (aside:) Make it little less.

                                                                                                                                                                        472902

Prabhupāda: So this is documentary. And the Europeans and..., they are not fools and rascals that they are interested in purchasing other religious book, not their Bible. You see? So it has got very great potency. So under the circumstances, we should now make combined effort that it can be pushed on more organizedly. I am doing now alone with the help of these... But no Indians are coming. This is the difficulty.

Guest (2): I think, with all due respect, many Indians are trying to do things in their own religious sect or in their own districts.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is doing.

Guest (2): Well, I mean, if you had been to Bharatpur recently, about 5,200 beds were there for netra-yajïa, for the eyes operation.

Prabhupāda: I know that. That I know. But I am speaking of this culture.

Guest (2): Culture, yes.

Guest (1): That is a difficulty one is giving.(?)

Guest (2): Because in observing karma-phela, somebody's taking care of. In bhakti...

Prabhupāda: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In Bhagavad-gītā there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured idea. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad..., janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you'll have eyes, you'll have eye trouble, vyādhi. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. If you accept janma-mṛtyu, then between janma-mṛtyu there is vyādhi and jarā. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That is solution. That is bigger solution. So we are giving that thing--there will be no more eyes' trouble. The main disease... Suppose one man is diseased, so sometimes he is feeling headache, sometimes eye-ache, sometimes finger-ache, and you are applying some medicine for headache. That is not the solution. The solution is that this man is suffering from this disease. How to cure it? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for that purpose. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. And as soon as you accept body, kleśada... Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Asann api. This body is not permanent. So because the body is not permanent, the disease also not permanent. So Kṛṣṇa's advice is tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. You make the solution--that is the greatest solution--that how to stop janma-mṛtyu. But that they do not know, that this can be stopped. They are simply busy with their temporary problems. And they are taking it as very great. What is great? Suppose if you have got a boil here. Simply by pinprick. (makes blowing sound) Will it cure? There must be surgical operation. Get out the pus. So this movement is for that purpose. It is not for this janma-mṛtyu, I mean, temporary jarā-vyādhi. That is all right, but Kṛṣṇa says--if we take Kṛṣṇa's advice, Bhagavad-gītā--that is not problem. If there is little trouble, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real problem is that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Try to stop it. That is intelligence. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is culture; that is education, not to be very much bothered with the temporary. That is not very intelligence. Give them this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have got this body. So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease. That is go... That will go, going on, janma-mṛtyu..., er, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya. So give relief, and the real relief, how to stop... That is our Vedic civilization, that you should not become father, you should not become mother, if you cannot give protection to your children from the cycle of birth and death. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This is real problem. Real culture is that "This child has come to me, so we shall train him in such a way that no more accepting body." Because as soon as we accept body.... It is very difficult subject matter, of course, to understand, but Bhagavad-gītā teaches yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. When people forget this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, Kṛṣṇa personally comes to teach them that "This is your problem."

Guest (3) (Indian man): Guruji, just now the problem is of starvation.

Prabhupāda: Well, starvation... Suppose you are diseased, and if your father does not give you to eat, that is your blessing. Guest (1): And what about...? He will die or...? Or this will go away?

Prabhupāda: Why you are complaining? Suppose your father, he gives you everything. But when you are diseased, if he said, "My dear son you cannot eat everything," is that starvation?

Guest (3): But...

Prabhupāda: First of all give me answer this. Is that starvation?

Guest (3): No...

Prabhupāda: That is cure. This is cure. In the Vedas it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. God is giving food to the cats and dogs. Nobody is starving. If you are starving, that is your blessing.

Guest (3): But then, Guruji, suppose you see somebody...

Prabhupāda: We do not suppose. We get the reference to the śāstra. That is our disease. We don't manufacture. We don't manufacture anything. Our point of view is if there is starvation, then we take it: mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Tat te nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo bhuïjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam. When we are put into starvation, we take it: blessings of God. We don't complain, that "I did something wrong or there is something wrong, so God has put me into this position. It is His blessing." This is our view.

Guest (2): Guruji, my father mentioned about this very beautiful picture just above your head. He was saying it is one of best pictures he has seen of Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. And you indicated that there may be a card or something.

Girirāja: Yes, I have that.

Guest (2): Oh. Very good.

Guest (1): You want big picture? I can give you one.

Prabhupāda: No, you have got cards printed?

Guest (1): I have got lot of the big ones. I think big ones you don't have.

Girirāja: He's asking for a card.

Guest (2): I have been asked that he wants to keep it on paper.

Prabhupāda: I have given that picture in my Bhagavad-gītā in so many languages.

Girirāja: Here we have it in all different languages. This is Chinese.

Guest (2): That I wouldn't be able to read. (laughter)

Girirāja: We're just showing that we are placing the Bhagavad-gītā in all languages. This is German. Oh, yes, yes. You're German.

Guest (2): I'm a little bit of that.

Prabhupāda: So this starvation point, we take it as blessing. People generally question that "How God is unfavorable to somebody and favorable to...?" That is foolishness. God is good, but that we do not know. Because we are less intelligent, we think that "One man is in starvation; therefore God is not good." That is our fault. We are not good. We do not understand God. But a Vaiṣṇava says, "Oh, it is blessing." And if he takes like that, then the result is mukti-pade sa dayā-bhāk. His mukti is guaranteed. In any circumstances, if somebody takes God as good, then his mukti is guaranteed. And if he blames God--"Oh, He has put me into starvation"--then he has to suffer. This is the common argument sometimes we meet, "Oh, why God has made somebody so rich and somebody some poor? He is unjust." That is foolishness. God cannot be... He's just, always just. That is God. So unless we have got that firm conviction, then we cannot become devotee.

Guest (1): That is why Indians are not joining then. Because they are not joining because of that; they cannot understand what is the reality. Because we try to comment upon the God's actions, "Somebody's poor, somebody's rich, somebody's this."

Prabhupāda: But actually you don't believe in God. That is the disease, godlessness. If we believe in God...

Guest (2): If we fully believe... But there are a large portion of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They don't believe in Him. They think that "God is my servant, or order-supplier"--"God, why you have not done this. If you don't do this, I don't want You." This is our position.

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means "God is my servant order-supplier." Actually... This is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadananda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield, somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥkha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So, but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed.' And God did not bring him back. He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position.

Guest (2): When war was to be declared...

Prabhupāda: Ha. There was no consul...

Guest (2): They had found a final solution to the Jewish problem.

Prabhupāda: These politicians, they're everything. And when the war is very acute and the husband is going to die, then God is required. When he does sinful activities, God is never consulted, but when he suffers, then God's consulted. "And if You don't supply my order, then I don't want You." Means he remains: "Don't want You." That's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        473011

Guest (1): Guru finds you.

Prabhupāda: Not guru finds you. You have to find out guru. Guru is there. Guru is there. But if you want to be cheated, then you find out. And if you want to be cheated, the cheaters will... Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpa. If you are actually serious to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will give you: "Here is guru." Guru is there. Guru is there, but unless you are actually serious, you cannot get real guru. If you want to be cheated or if you are a cheater, then you'll get a cheater guru. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give prasāda. Bring prasāda. Now we go to guru for some medical help. We go to guru for some economic development. So you'll get cheater. That's all.

Guest (1): But how to engage these people who are desirous who have desire of serving Kṛṣṇa in Bombay? If you are talking about a farm and other things...

Prabhupāda: Then why we have constructed this?

Guest (1): No, here people will not come because the people are not going business or anything, but people him, people like him, people like this, how they can engage...

Prabhupāda: They can come at least weekend and learn. There are so many books.

Guest (2): We have our own... We have to find out.

Guest (4): We have to find our own ways to come here.

Prabhupāda: Guru is there. Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you find? Why you are blind? Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya. He has come. Why don't you take Him? Why do you go to a cheater? Because you want to be cheated. Guru is there. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam, Arjuna said. Why don't you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That means I don't want guru. I want somebody, my order supplier. So how you can be... Because you want to be cheated, you'll get cheater. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmi. Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as guru? What is the difficulty? Is there anybody greater than Kṛṣṇa? Do you think like that? What is your idea?

Guest (2): He is the ultimate. There's nothing more.

Prabhupāda: He is the supreme guru. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. He's the supreme person. So why don't you accept Him as guru? That means you do not want. Then you must be cheated. If gold is available in a gold shop, purchase there. Why do you go to a pan-wala to purchase gold? Will you not be cheated? You do not know where to purchase gold, and still you are..., "Where is guru?" Go there, where gold is sold. And if you do not know even there, then you must be cheated. You do not know where is gold is available. Unfortunately you go to a pan-wala: "Have you got gold?" He'll give you some gold leaf, that's all: "Here is gold." The real thing is that guru is there, Kṛṣṇa is there. And we are presenting. We are not manufacturing. I do not say that I am guru. Our business is to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. Therefore I'm guru. Guru is he who speaks Kṛṣṇa's word. That is guru. And if he manufactures, then he is a cheater.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        473089

Prabhupāda: First of all we must attract people, then give them prasāda. If you have no power to attract them, then how..., what is the position? Program means men will do. If there is no men, who will do this program?

Girirāja: In that area, in Thana, they drink at night.

Prabhupāda: Let them do whatever nonsense they are doing. Let them chant and take prasāda. We don't mind what they are doing. That is later on. When I was chanting in Tompkinson Park I never asked them that "Don't come here. You are drinking." Everyone was drinking. (laughs) I know that. Everyone had illicit sex. They were coming with their boyfriend, girlfriend. I didn't know that? Was I going to restrict them from? Let them come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu stressed on this, mass kīrtana every night. He was not speaking philosophy. Philosophy with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with the mass of people. Mass of people--"Come on! Chant!" Give prasāda. This was Caitan... What they will understand, philosophy?

Girirāja: They won't understand.

Prabhupāda: Mass of people, let them chant and dance and take prasāda. So these centers are being opened for mass movement as well as class movement. In the village there is... Hardly you'll get good, educated men. So there is no question of philosophy. Given them chance of chanting and take prasāda. It is useless to talk before them our philosophy. They'll never understand. But they will understand prasādam. Prasādam is so nice. If there are few grains of prasāda, even the crows will come, the condemned bird. (laughs) He will also come. You do like this. So if this has been settled, do that.

Haṁsadūta: I think Mahāṁsa would rather manage the farm himself.

Prabhupāda: Then... You think... I do not know, but manage somehow or other. I want that prasāda distribution must go on. People should come in numbers, increase. Whatever you can produce, spend for that purpose. We are not going to produce foodstuff for our starving... It is for them. When they'll understand, they'll work voluntarily: "Yes, it's for us." We are not capitalists.

Trivikrama: Now there's ārati, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Girirāja: It is a big philosophy, that everything is simply based on following the order of Kṛṣṇa without any expectation of any gain.

Prabhupāda: Then you are success. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. This is success. Kṛṣṇa says, "Do this."

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajïād bhavati parjanyo

yajïaḥ karma-sambudbhavaḥ

Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. We have the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to do this. It is not fashion. It is the fact, sir. And those who want to become immediately paramahaṁsa... Paramahaṁsa does not mean some bogus men.

                                                                                                                                                                        473205

Prabhupāda: He went to preach Vedānta, but instead of preaching Vedānta, he learned so many things which is objectionable from Vedic civilization.

Mr. Asnani: He also said that you cannot teach the religion on empty stomachs.

Prabhupāda: That is his philosophy.

Girirāja: So many people say that.

Prabhupāda: But why the kings left their kingdom and became empty stomach? There were...

Mr. Asnani: They lived in jungle for tapasya.

Prabhupāda: Why this Bhārata-varṣa, Bharata Mahārāja, at the twenty-four years of age and his wife was young, children were young, and he was emperor of the whole world, so why went voluntarily to become empty stomach? He was not poverty-stricken. But why he accepted?

Devotee: Tapasya.

Mr. Asnani: No, he realized that the material world is not the solution.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of empty stomach. God is supplying food to the ant, and why shall I remain empty stomach? Śukadeva Gosvāmī has said, cīrāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ. Find out this verse. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān. Cīrāṇi kiṁ na santi, pathi.

Girirāja: Is it the First Canto?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The first word is cīrāṇi. C-i-r-a-n-i.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cīrāṇi.

Girirāja: Is it cira-vasa...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, cīrāṇi there is. I think it is Second Canto. Maybe Second Canto.

Girirāja: Yes. I have it.

cīrāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ

naivāìghripāḥ para-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan

ruddhā guhāḥ kim ajito 'vati nopasannān

kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān

Oh, yes. This is very good.

Prabhupāda: Dhana-durmadāndhān. What is the translation?

Girirāja: "Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls?"

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of empty stomach? Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān. Last line.

Girirāja: "Why, then, do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth?"

Prabhupāda: They think that "Why should we go to God? The devotees come here to beg from us. We are bigger than God."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Puffed-up.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they say, "empty stomach." (break) Kim ajito na avati upasannan. Read the meaning.

Girirāja: "kim--whether; ajitaḥ--the Almighty Lord; avati--give protection; na--not; upasannān--the surrendered soul."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṛṣṇa says "You surrender." And one who has surrendered, does it mean Kṛṣṇa has no responsibility? So why you are bothering to go to this dhana-durmadāndhān?

Mr. Asnani: Unconditional surrender.

Prabhupāda: Huh? You have done already upasannān. So is Kṛṣṇa unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbhamela, still there are sādhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go--gṛhināṁ dina-cetasām--"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other..." This is our mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa.' Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Kṛṣṇa. This is our... We are not going for this belly. (Hindi) They are criticizing that "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityānanda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa... "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary... But they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are... We don't require any God. We have got industry." This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā.

Hari-śauri: What was that?

Prabhupāda: Yā niśā. Yā. Y.

Hari-śauri: Y. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānām?

Prabhupāda: Hm. (Hindi) But they are kept in darkness. This civilization is like that.

Hari-śauri:

yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ

tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī

yasyāṁ jāgrati bhūtāni

sā niśā paśyato muneḥ

"What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled, and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage." Purport? "There are two classes of intelligent men. The one is intelligent in material activities for sense gratification and the other is introspective and awake for the cultivation of self-realization. Activities of the introspective sage or thoughtful man are night for persons materially absorbed. Materialistic persons remain asleep in such a night due to their ignorance of self-realization. The introspective sage remains alert in the 'night' of the materialistic men. The sage feels transcendental pleasure in the gradual advancement of spiritual culture, whereas the man in materialistic activities, being asleep to self-realization, dreams of varieties of sense pleasure, feeling sometimes happy and sometimes distressed in his sleeping condition. The introspective man is always indifferent to materialistic happiness and distress. He goes on with his self-realization activities undisturbed by material reaction."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, in this stanza, I have not followed a little. That stanza which he just read it. Now, a spiritual-bent-of-mind person, he sleeps in the daytime.

Prabhupāda: Materialist person...

Mr. Asnani: He sleeps in the nighttime, and there's trouble in his thoughts. Whereas a spiritual man, he's awoke in the nighttime and sleep in the daytime.

Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand what is sleeping and awakening. This is the real understanding. The materialistic man, he's sleeping about self-realization. He has no information.

Mr. Asnani: He has no?

Prabhupāda: Information. But the spiritualistic man, he's awakened in that, that this life is meant for self-realization. So the materialistic man, he does not know. He's kept in darkness of night, and the spiritualistic man is awakened. That is the difference.

Mr. Asnani: Why the night...?

Prabhupāda: Night means ignorance, when one sleeps. Yes. And day is awakening. So what is day for the materialistic person, so that is night for the spiritualistic person. And what is day for the spiritualistic person, that is night for the... Just like a spiritualist person, he has sacrificed everything and he is after God, and they are thinking, "These rascals, unnecessarily, empty stomach, wasting, 'Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa,' chant." They are deriding. And he is thinking that "This rascal got this human form of body. Instead of spiritual culture, he's spoiling his life, cats and dogs." That means in the subject matter where the spiritualists were not interested, he is interested. And in the subject matter, the spiritual person, interested, he is not interested. This is day and night.

Mr. Asnani: Oh, I was taking sometime in literary sense. So it was sometimes confusing me.

Prabhupāda: No, it is literally, that yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. He, spiritualist person, he knows, that "What is the use of the sense gratification? The sense gratification is there in the cats and dogs. Why I am wasting in this way?" That is awakened. What is the difference? A man is having sex life in a very nice apartment, very decorated and nice cot. He is enjoying sex life, that "I am advanced civili..." And the dog is enjoying sex life on the street in presence of everyone. But the enjoyment of sex life is the same. There is no difference either for the dog or the man. So the spiritualistic man, he says that "Why shall I waste my time in sex enjoyment? This is enjoyed by the dogs and cats. I have got this human form of life for spiritual advancement." So saṁyamī: "Stop this nonsense. Let me cultivate spiritual life." Saṁyamī. Saṁyamī means sense gratification stopped. That is saṁyamī. And he is not saṁyamī. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. Because he's not saṁyamī, his sense are uncontrolled, so he's opening the path of hellish condition of life. The business is the same--āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam--based on this maithuna, sex life. So you'll find the fly is doing the same thing, and the dog is doing the same thing, and the human being is also doing the same thing, and the king of heaven, he is doing the same thing. The business is the same. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Only the body is different. But they are thinking that "If in the body of Indra, I can have sex with Śacīdevi, that is advancement." He does not think that the sex life with Śacīdevī or the street dog, it is same. There is no difference. And that is jāgarti. That is awakened. There is one word. Where it is, I don't remember. Maithunam agaram ajïāḥ. This is.... This material life is a term of imprisonment of imprisonment in sex. Just like imprisonment means you are detained in a place allotted by the government, you cannot go out. So here, this material world, the imprisonment is the sex. You cannot go out.

Mr. Asnani: Only sex, Prabhupāda? Or...

Prabhupāda: All sex. First of all sex.

Mr. Asnani: But among them, the sex is very powerful.

Prabhupāda: Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etat. This is the basic principle of... A man and woman is married; the purpose is sex. Now, when he's married, ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair. "Then where shall I enjoy sex? I must have very nice apartment, gṛha. Then I must maintain myself, kṣetra." Formerly agriculture was the source of maintenance. Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra. "Then I get some children, suta, then some friends." Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-suta apta vitta. "Then money." In this way, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti: "He increases this paraphernalia, and he becomes entangled:" Ahaṁ mam... "I am the proprietor; I am the father; I am this; I am that." And one day, nature's law comes, gives him a slap: "Get out!" Finished.

Mr. Asnani: All relationship goes away.

Prabhupāda: Mṛtyuḥ ahaṁ sarva-haraś ca. "I take away."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, why people are not able to understand this?

Prabhupāda: Fools! Mūòho nābhijā...

Mr. Asnani: Even we are encircling ourselves in the desires, cage.

Prabhupāda: Mūòho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param... They do not know the aim of life. Therefore apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. Cannot see what is the aim of life. Therefore it is the duty of the parents. That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Kaumāra ācaret prājïo dharmān: "From the very beginning of life they should be taught about this Bhāgavata-dharma." That is brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, train him to be self-controlled... If I ask you, "Give me your sons. We shall teach him how to become self-controlled," you'll laugh. Because you know, "What will be the benefit by becoming self-controlled? There is struggle for existence. He has to earn money, maintain himself." I have got this experience.

Mr. Asnani: Yes. You told my wife also.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested. That is the difficulty in this age. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They do not know how one can become happy. They are simply hoping against hope. Durāśayā. Aśayā means hope, and dura means which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ.

Pradyumna: You wrote that essay one time, "Hope Against Hope."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hope against hope is which is never fulfilled.

Mr. Asnani: Living in the fool's paradise.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "This plan has failed. Now let me this, make this plan. And then again fail? All right, let me this." This is hope against hope. He's thinking that "This plan has failed. Let me do this plan." Again failed? "Again another, again another."

Mr. Asnani: Foundation, as you said, is on the household.

Hari-śauri: Moghāṣā.

Prabhupāda: Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jïānā vicetasaḥ...

Hari-śauri: Baffled hope.

Prabhupāda: It will never be fulfilled, but still, they will make plan. The Napoleon made a plan. Hitler made a plan. Churchill made a plan. Gandhi made a plan. Mussolini made a plan. But the plan and planmaker--all washed away. Things are going on as it is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you." This planmaking... Our government has got planning commission. The planning commission has brought people in such a condition that they are dying of starvation. And they are taking salary, big, big, fat salary. This is going on.

Mr. Asnani: And taking share from the black market also.

Prabhupāda: How you can expect good wishes from such persons? Very precarious condition. Your son, you take care. Now, as soon as you make a committee to take care of your son, then everything is finished. Is it not? The committee members will finish the son and the son's maintenance and everything. But that is going on. Formerly there was one monarch. He was acting according to the Vedic instruction. So he was responsible. And if there are many votes, by vote a government, a combination of plunderers, what they will take care of the people? It is impossible. Otherwise why there was need of dragging down Nixon? He was elected, wrong elected. Wrong must be. The people are wrong. They do not know who is the right man. Any rascal makes some intrigue, and he gets vote. And then they detect, "Oh, he's the wrong man." Again another is taken. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. And what is the guarantee that another man is right? Because the process is wrong.

Hari-śauri: They're continually re-electing a new man. The got rid of Nixon, put Ford in. Now they've got rid of Ford; they've put Carter in. And then they'll get rid of Carter, and they'll put someone else in.

Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām: "Again and again chewing the chewed." But if they make it point that "If one is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'll not give a vote," then everything will be perfect, nice.

Hari-śauri: Some countries fine you if you don't vote. If you don't vote, they fine you just to make people vote, because they know otherwise everybody's so disgusted...

Prabhupāda: Just see. I have never given vote. Since we have got this sva-rāj, as soon as the vote question, I go away. Because I think, "Why shall I give this nonsense vote? None of them are liked by me." I avoid it. In my gṛhastha life, the municipal board and the..., I avoid. I don't believe in. So give Mr. Asnani some fruits.

Hari-śauri: Some fruit?

Prabhupāda: Cut into pieces.

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, Allahabad, where are you staying?

Prabhupāda: We have got our own camp. You are coming?

Mr. Asnani: I am not fortunate.

Prabhupāda: I am going because I have to go to Bhubaneswar via Calcutta. So it is on the way. And besides that, it is a big function. And because my health is not good, if Allahabad atmosphere or Bhubaneswar atmosphere helps me little, it is... Of all foodstuff, I see the kitri is good for me, little kitri.

Mr. Asnani: Easily digested also.

Prabhupāda: So I shall begin again kitri. (Hindi) (break)

...take agriculture, you must keep cows. Both of them are related.

Girirāja: Together.

Prabhupāda: The cow will be subsisting on the grass, and refused things he'll take. And the substance you take. And even if does not give milk, the stool is useful. And you get food grown by the cows and bulls and milk. You subsist. So by mutual cooperation you subsist. You save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why you are bothered?

Girirāja: No bother.

Prabhupāda: This I want to introduce. And it has become successful in the Western countries. They are doing very nicely, New Vrindaban. Very nice. And Philadelphia, New Orleans. Men, they're happy. So why not in India? India is mainly agricultural country. On this principle you can take. There is no objection. I left Haṁsadūta in charge, but he left everything.

Girirāja: Actually, it seems that in your system of management, the basic principle is to depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? He says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo. Distress will be if I am disobedient. This is nature's law. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, where is the question of distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje duḥkha se haje. This is one Hindi poetry, that "When one is in distressed condition, he goes to God: 'Please save me. Give me this mercy.' " So duḥka se means: "In distressed condition he becomes a devotee." But if he becomes a devotee when he's happy, then where is the question of duḥkha, or distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje. When you are happy, at that time if you worship Hari, then there is no question of duḥkha. That Vivekananda's policy, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva. Why not seva-nārāyaṇa? Why He should become daridra? Why not engage in? That he does not know. "He becomes a daridra-nārāyaṇa, and I become his servant." Foolish rascal. A discovered philosophy. (end)

 

Room Conversation(3)                                 January 8, 1977, Bombay                                                           473371

Prabhupāda: If I am in power, give the dog a bad name and hang it. Who is going to check me? The same story, the lion and the lamb? No? A lion was drinking water this side and one lamb was drinking water that side. So the lion saw it is very nice food. So he wanted to kill with some plea, "Oh, you are making my water muddy!" "Sir, I am here so far. How I can make your water muddy?" (laughs) In this way he picked up some quarrel and jumped over. So he's lion and he's a lamb. So it is no difficult for the lion to kill a lamb under some plea. "Might is right." There has been so much propaganda and CIA, this Communist propaganda, this Blitz propaganda. In Bengal there was heavy propaganda against our...

                                                                                                                                                                        473411

Prabhupāda: Yes. If people actually taking like that, then there will be a revolution in Western country.

Hari-śauri: I don't see how they can stop it. They can't stop it.

Prabhupāda: Huge quantity selling. Either Kṛṣṇa's desire... It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Otherwise a religious book which is not their religion, Bhāgavatam, Indian. So somehow or other it is being distributed, and they say it is spreading like...

Girirāja: Epidemic.

Prabhupāda: Epidemic. So it is a kind of revolution.

Hari-śauri: And it's not just in one place. It's every country our men have been to.

Prabhupāda: Every country. Whole Europe and America. What business they have got to purchase our books in Christmas? They have no business. Why they are purchasing? Huge quantity. I never dreamed even (laughs) that my books would be sold in large quantity.

 

Prabhupāda: Somehow or other it is interesting.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It's so full of...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Otherwise why people take it? When I was... I thought that I am giving my imagination, who will take it? It is my imagination. Of course with reference to the modern politics, sociology, everything. Whenever possible I touch.

Hari-śauri: But your preaching is so practical. These other men when they speak, it just comes out... It's just not practical or they don't know how to translate it into action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I try to write. I explained in that verse, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. I've touched all the points in the modern...

Girirāja: It has a very nice purport.

Prabhupāda: Find out that. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Parjanyaḥ...

Pradyumna: Oh, I know.

Prabhupāda: I've touched the slaughterhouse, brothel...

Hari-śauri: I just finished reading that Perfection of Yoga. It's an amazing book. Each chapter gradually leads more and more to the ultimate goal.

Prabhupāda: They were my beginning speeches in your country, in America. I was daily speaking in... So Hayagrīva has edited. Hm. What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on land and cows."

Prabhupāda: That idea I'm still maintaining. Yes.

Pradyumna: "The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly king Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the causes of all varieties of production on the land. Not only do regulated rains help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and the fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality."

Prabhupāda: Now Kīrtanānanda has sent so nice sweets.

Hari-śauri: And ghee.

Prabhupāda: You have given something all other devotees?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Give him some.

Hari-śauri: Pālikā hid them somewhere. I don't know where they are. Pālikā hid them away so no one would take them. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: All right then. Preparing first class.

Hari-śauri: Kulādri has a box.

Prabhupāda: First class. And they have got enough milk. When I went there, all nice milk preparation. Ghee, sweet rice, these sweets. Ample. All variety. And they have ghee. Then prepare kachori, samosa. Such nice thing. And how friendly the cows. Just like family members. And they're giving more economically. That's practical. More milk. Then?

Pradyumna: "If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk, and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh, and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling, individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk." It's nice. You compare the warfield and the factory. I think people appreciate that. You compare the factory with the warfield.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever thought comes to me, I discuss as far as possible. Why these things are... Therefore I want to organize this farm project. Let there be ideal. And it is becoming ideal in America. People are coming even from the school, college, they are coming to see New Vrindaban. And there was section where our enemies, they are not disturbing. So they are appreciating. Still we are not thoroughly organized, but still they're appreciating. They'll appreciate. One day will come they'll appreciate. And other parents, as they come and thank me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that..." Many parents came when I was in Los Angeles.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's becoming more organized now. They have a Parents for Krishna group now.

Prabhupāda: Any sane man will appreciate. Why this father, mother, came to congratulate me? "Swamiji, you have done so..." It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that everyone be happy. They'll take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then?

Pradyumna: "It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which combined together can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes? Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The king at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity, and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to a so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less-than-animal-man."

Prabhupāda: That's all (laughing) we have said.

 

Room Conversation(4)                                January 8, 1977, Bombay                                                            473487

Prabhupāda: ...in Vṛndāvana. And try to organize this Gurukula as their world attraction. That will be your success. Simply teach them nicely English and Sanskrit. And our books are there. And regular habits: going to the Yamunā in procession, timely get up early in the morning, attending class, clean dress, clean bedding, clean room. Śikhā-sūtra. The Vāmanadeva gave this description. Where is that book?

Jagadīśa: I don't know. Pradyumna may have taken it.

Prabhupāda: There were two books. Woman... Girls should be taught how to become faithful wife, how to learn nice cooking, cleansing, dressing. Simple method. There is no objection of their becoming scholar, but that is not necessary. They have got natural inclination to give service by cooking, cleansing, dressing. Cleanliness is the first necessity. That is hygienic, spiritual, and calm, quiet. India has got special facility to remain clean. Only in this country you can take thrice bathing. In other countries... Easy there. In your country there is hot water. There is no difficulty if one practices. I think our men have such practice. But this cleanness is this taking bathing at least twice. That keeps a man very clean.

Jagadīśa: Yes. Since I've been taking two baths a day, unless I have two baths I don't feel clean. Sometimes I am very busy and don't get to bathe twice, and then I feel very dirty.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: I don't feel clean if I don't have three.

Prabhupāda: Also, he also. He also takes. So if it is practiced, it keeps health very nice. I was taking all along. Since I was attacked, heart, they said you should be kept from catching cold.

                                                                                                                                                                        473508

...big, big buildings, the same spirit as karmīs are doing. But this desire to construct very big building, when transferred for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. So we have got this tendency, everyone, to possess money, to have very big buildings and so on, so on. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be bhakti. Otherwise karma. And karma means to be bound up by the laws of nature. So? What is...? (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...parāyanaḥ sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune. "O great sage, out of many millions of materially liberated people who are free from ignorance, and out of many millions of siddhas who have merely attained perfection, there's hardly one pure devotee of Nārāyaṇa. Only such a devotee is actually completely satisfied and peaceful."

Prabhupāda: This is devotee. It is not so easy. But we are giving chance to everyone to come to that position. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But otherwise it is very, very... Muktānām. It begins from the mukta, liberated. Liberated means no more material anxiety.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That stage is little far for us.

Prabhupāda: But if you follow the vow...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The principles...

Prabhupāda: ...then it will be possible.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I find that as a gṛhastha only sometimes it's a little difficult because a gṛhastha has to worry about taking care of his...

Prabhupāda: Family.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...family's needs, clothing, this, that. It becomes a problem, where to get the money from. But otherwise...

Prabhupāda: And that is also different standard. People are not satisfied with simple living.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So they want...

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is certain age, that "At this age no more such ambition, material. Lead simple life and advance." That is after fiftieth year. This is our Vedic system. In the beginning it is not possible, but by practicing... So if one lives for hundred years, fifty years' extravagancy, "Now stop. Now be regulated and try to be mukta." This is the system. But they don't want even up to the point of death, even men like Gandhi and others. They do not want. This morning Indira Gandhi said that "I am for the mass of people." And Vivekananda, "My country." The same feeling as a person, individual person thinking of his family, these people are thinking of his country, a big family, not for the whole living entities, jīva. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is interested in the śāstric injunction. They've lost them all... Temporary... This is an institution to elevate people gradually. (break) If we follow our own... (microphone moving)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not very difficult. I don't find it very...

Prabhupāda: Not at all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I used to work in New York outside all the time, but I didn't find it so difficult.

Prabhupāda: No one will. It is not at all difficult. The principles, the regulation we have started, it will automatically bring them to that stage.

 

Room Conversation(5)                                 January 8, 1977, Bombay                                                           473534

Prabhupāda: Let them chant and take prasādam. They'll... Everyone will get. Then gradually, as a snake charming, by chanting, chanting, chanting, then they will be subdued. And that is guaranteed process. There is no doubt. Anyone, even a man is like a snake. In material world everyone is a snake, envious. Snake is very envious. You are passing by the side, "Oh! You are passing by my side?" This is snake. No offense. Because he is passing--he has got the poison--he'll utilize it. This is snake. Without offense. If somebody hurts him or tramples him--no. "Oh, you are so daring? You are passing? You do not know I am snake." Sarpaḥ kruraḥ khalaḥ kruraḥ sarpāt krurataraḥ khalaḥ. There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence.

 

Morning Walk                                               January 9, 1977, Bombay                                                          474340

Prabhupāda: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's āśrama I saw not a single Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "He's Vaiṣṇava." Bogus.

Dr. Patel: He never visited any temple.

Prabhupāda: Bogus! Simply politics.

Dr. Patel: He wanted to kill(?) other Muslims and all other... Especially untouchable.

Prabhupāda: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow-killing?" "I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is... Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal... You are observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.

Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat, are meat-eaters the world over.

Prabhupāda: Not a question of Buddhist. That is Christian, Hindus, everyone. Rascals. Lord Buddha, he was nonviolent, and this Jawaharlal Nehru was observing Buddha-jayantī and at the same time sanctioning cow-killing. What is that? Cow-killing. "What is wrong in eating meat?" He has said that.

Prabhupāda: The more they create turmoil, the more we become famous.

Haṁsadūta: They say mind control and brainwashing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but actually that is what you are doing. You are cleaning our brain and teaching us how to control our minds.

                                                                                                                                                                        474373

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our method is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Yes, actually it is washing.

Dr. Patel: Brainwashing is very bad in India, not only in America but the whole world over.

Prabhupāda: I condemn everyone, that "You are all dogs and hogs." And United Nations a pack of dogs barking. That's a fact. And in Chicago I said, all women, "You cannot have freedom. You have got only thirty-four-ounce brain, and man has got sixty-four-ounce." I told them. So I became a subject of very great criticism.

Trivikrama: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: I denied, "No, you cannot have." I told them. One girl in the airship, she was seeing like (makes some gesture--laughter). I asked her, "Give me 7-Up." "It is locked now." So I frankly said that "No, no. You cannot have equal rights because your brain is thirty-four ounce." Actually that's a fact. Where is woman philosopher, mathematician, scientist? Not a single.

Dr. Patel: Apart from that, I mean, they are made for a particular mission.

Prabhupāda: How they can have equal rights? Up to date in the history there is not a single woman who is a great scientist or great philosopher or great...

Dr. Patel: Madame Curie was a...

Prabhupāda: All bogus. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: You are getting too harsh on them because...

Prabhupāda: No, no. How can I give you equal rights, because your brain is less substance.

Dr. Patel: We cannot degrade our mothers that way.

Prabhupāda: It is not degrading. It is accepting the actual fact.

Dr. Patel: These girls are misled, these American girls.

Prabhupāda: There is no history. There is no history. Just like Kunti's mother. She produced so many heroes, but she was not hero. She could produce heroes like Arjuna, like Bhima. But not that she becomes hero.

Dr. Patel: Mother can produce heroes...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, nobody will say that Kuntī is as good as Arjuna or Bhima.

Dr. Patel: How can anybody say?

Prabhupāda: That is... How you'll get the equal rights?

Dr. Patel: No woman smaller than Kuntī could have produced an Arjuna.

Prabhupāda: You can produce. That is another thing. A cook can produce foodstuff suitable for rich man, but that does not mean he is rich man.

Dr. Patel: You argue. (laughs)

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you told one story about the animals having a meeting and trying to become free from the control of (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Our śāstras say (Sanskrit).

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Everyone is (Sanskrit). That is according to his position. That does not mean equal. Kṛṣṇa Himself worshiped Sudāmā Vipra. That does not mean Sudāmā Vipra is as good as the Personality of Godhead. When Nārada was coming in Dvārakā, Kṛṣṇa immediately got down and... Nārada was smiling, "Just see the fun." But etiquette. Nārada never said that "I am better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." Never said.

Trivikrama: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Everyone knew their position. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is addressed by Arjuna, "Acyuta, You promised to drive my chariot, therefore I'm asking You. Don't forget. You never deviate from Your promise." Acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta. "Don't forget that You are Acyuta. Don't think that I am Your servant, I am ordering." He knows that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I am ordering Him."

Haṁsadūta: You were explaining to that reporter in Pennsylvania, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that actually this women's liberation is just a trick by the men.

Prabhupāda: Yes! It is trick by the men, yes.

Dr. Patel: How... Could you explain that?

Prabhupāda: Because if they remain free, they get young women free. That's rascal's man brain. That "You take freedom."

Dr. Patel: This is a third-class argument.

Prabhupāda: This is argument! This is argument. This is fact. These rascals keep these women unmarried to enjoy daily new, new young women, these karmīs, these rascals. There is club. There is club. These young women are paid for that topless, bottomless. You do not know.

Dr. Patel: No. I have never seen a girl naked. I refuse to...

Prabhupāda: I have... I know everything.

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you gave the example that what is the use of keeping a cow if you can get milk in the marketplace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Cow-keeping is expensive.

Dr. Patel: Why keep a cow when milk is available. (laughs)

Trivikrama: It's a fact. The young men think like that.

Prabhupāda: They make pregnant and they go away. And this poor girl, either she has to kill the child or beg from the government, "Give me welfare; otherwise..." Is that freedom? These rascal woman...

Dr. Patel: This is freedom. Actually the government recognized...

Prabhupāda: Government means a set of rascals. But practical point of view the woman wants equal right. Equal rights they enjoy, and the woman becomes pregnant, and he goes away, the boy. And she has to kill the child or beg from the government. This is her freedom. And still, equal rights. Where equal right? The boy has gone away. You also go away? No. You'll have to carry the child. To get freedom you have to kill or you have to beg. And still she thinks, "I am free."

Dr. Patel: Such experience (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Rather we are giving freedom, that "Never mind you have got illegitimate son. Come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Trivikrama: And by teaching them to be chaste...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And teaching "Don't do it again." That's all. We are giving. And they are happy. My Godbrothers criticize that "You keep women in the temple." I tell them, "I cannot reject."

Dr. Patel: I was also thinking like that, today, I mean, presence I said, that Vaiṣṇavas keep woman...

Prabhupāda: It is different situation. I cannot reject anyone.

Dr. Patel: No, that's right. You are right. But this is a great affecting the boys down here. After all...

Prabhupāda: But they are taught, "Don't be misled." But if they cannot, that (indistinct). I cannot deny. I cannot deny. I cannot say that "You are woman. You are condemned." I cannot.

Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to keep women away from...

Prabhupāda: That is personally as a sannyāsī, not that... He never said that women should be refused Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: No. Nobody has said so. But they should not mix.

Prabhupāda: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible.

Jagadīśa: Nowadays even in the universities, they allow the free mixing of boys and girls in the same dormitories. In the same dormitories.

Prabhupāda: Same room.

Dr. Patel: In the same dormitories they live together you mean. Girls have no separate...

Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Free mixing.

Trivikrama: Same showers even. Bathroom the same.

Dr. Patel: Oh, were...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa. "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasāda." This is my propaganda.

Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody...

Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest.

Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is... Ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is... Sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso. These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fifty percent, ten percent devotion...

Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicareṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhuyaya. Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa guṇān samatītya. Sama-prakarena utītya(?). Cent percent utītya(?).

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is credit.

Dr. Patel: This is credit, and this is also, I mean, that this should happen also...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the right movement. This is the test.

Dr. Patel: If all that...

Prabhupāda: Who cares for this Transcendental Meditation? They are not hogging any propaganda. It is coming this ear and going this ear. They don't care for it. So many others have gone. Who cares for them? They are not serious for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization.

Haṁsadūta: There's that one verse you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that so many Brahmās may come and go...

Prabhupāda: Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead--there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa had all the opposition throughout His life.

Prabhupāda: Throughout His life. That means genuine Supreme Lord. Before His birth.

Dr. Patel: Before, yes. And after, He was cursed (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla was His cousin-brother.

Dr. Patel: Cousin-brother. (Sanskrit) If you consider that, He rose against all odds. Greater the opposition, better you become.

Prabhupāda: Samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu. God must be equal to everyone.

Dr. Patel: You are right. With that extreme faith, Jesus took to the cross. Huh? (break)

Prabhupāda: That is the greatness of the movement. (break)

Dr. Patel: We will be meeting with all people in the whole world. And you will be...

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the oldest.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) Keep in my hand and walk. And I would say, sir, that you also should not take bath in cold water.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't take. I... Since 1970, 1966, '67, I am not taking cold bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath.

Dr. Patel: I have never taken cold water in my life.

Prabhupāda: Shower I was taking.

Dr. Patel: All these boys take cold water, required from them.

Prabhupāda: I never used hot water. In India the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised. "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, I was taking cold water early in the morning.

Dr. Patel: This will be extreme cold in river. I have taken bath in the confluence four or five years back. It was not winter, but then it was... It is cold throughout the year because snow melt and keep water very cold.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...gentleman will have a flag in the home.

Dr. Patel: During the times of Moguls you have seen all the pictures with the flag.

Prabhupāda: That was the system. Our Pandit Jawaharlal was keeping one flag also, always.

Dr. Patel: But what prosperity India must have. Those people from Europe tried to find out India and went down there and found America. What prosperity they must have... What prosperity India must have then.

Prabhupāda: India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture.

 

Discussion on Deprogrammers                    January 9, 1977, Bombay                                                           474306

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not take this... Suppose he is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter. Now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don't play duplicity in the dress of sannyāsī to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyāsī, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good.

Jagadīśa: But for Brahmānanda, he may remain sannyāsī? Brahmānanda?

Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But we say that "Don't be hypocrite." That's all. If he thinks now he'll be able to continue as a sannyāsī, he'll not fall down, he'll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyāsī, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Kṛṣṇa. Why should you give up Kṛṣṇa's service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned gṛhasthas. If sannyāsa is not suitable for you, you remain as a gṛhastha. What is the wrong there?

 

Room Conversation                                     January 9, 1977, Bombay                                                            475054

Guest (10) (Indian man): Prabhupāda, surrender, sar..., word, if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning of surrender and how one should do it? Basis of surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Kṛṣṇa is master; I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that "Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So now I have surrendered. I have no more fear. Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." To believe firmly... "Kṛṣṇa is all powerful. Kṛṣṇa is my master. He is not a fakir, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Kṛṣṇa is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then that is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that śraddhā śabde viśvāsa niścaya. This is śraddhā. Sraddha is the beginning. That śraddhā means when you firmly believe in Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you remain where you are. This is firm belief: "Kṛṣṇa says that He will give me protection. So let me surrender. I have surrendered to māyā. I have not become happy. So why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my senses. So why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? This is intelligent. Everyone is acting under senses, order of the senses. Kāmādinām kathidhā na kathidā palitā durni-deśaḥ. Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are... I am servant of the senses. My position is twofold. Either I become the servant of the senses or I become servant of Kṛṣṇa. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it.

Guest (10): How to run away from the senses? I, being a servant of the senses, how to run away from the senses?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvāmī. That is svāmī, gosvāmī. Svāmī means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svāmī.

Guest (10): How to come to that position?

Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṇa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ. These are the different stages. Ādau śraddhā: "Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛòha niścaya. This śraddhā means when you firmly believe that "Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of śraddhā.

Guest (10): Faith. Firm faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean... Anyway, ādau śraddhā. This śraddhā, if we increase this śraddhā, you have to associate with sādhu.. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva samantavyaḥ. He is sādhu, who is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ. If he has got other engagement, he is not sādhu. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: "Other engagement zero." That is sādhu. The sādhu-saìga. You have to associate with such sādhus who are cent percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saìgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā. If you mix with the sādhu, then you'll learn the activities. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. The sādhus are rising early in the morning; they are attending maìgala ārati, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then dressing the Deity and having ārati and so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgo 'tha bhajana. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swamiji, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athāsaktiḥ niṣṭhā: "Yes, I shall stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Tato niṣṭhā ruciḥ. Ruciḥ means taste. Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living with me? He has got taste, rucis. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ, athāsaktiḥ. Asaktiḥ, attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Asaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. "Oh, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I have to do this." These are the different stages. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. These are the different stages, kramaḥ. Kramaḥ means gradual evolution. So you have to take that gradual evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ. They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's apartment. He is.... The gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like this and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that tiny apartment. Am I right or not? Manda-bhāgyā. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has declared, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. They are rotting or rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he becomes fortunate, then take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

All living entities are rotting in this way, but if some of them or one of them becomes very fortunate, then by the grace of guru and Kṛṣṇa he gets this line of devotional service. It is for the most fortunate person, not ordinary.

Guest (10): What's the difference between grace and mercy?

Prabhupāda: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy, and mercy means you ask for mercy. Kṛpa-siddha. Sādhana-siddha and kṛpa-siddha. You are trying to earn one lakh of rupees--that is sādhana. But if somebody is gracious he can give you: "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is grace. That is kṛpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody graciously give you: "All right, take." There are many persons. So that is grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor. That is sādhana. Similarly, by association, by sādhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also, you can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are kṛpa-siddha, they are more fortunate. (Hindi) Preach this Bhagavad-gītā as it is. People will be benefited. You'll be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept Bhagavad-gītā? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries. Not by all. But the people in general, now the... Feeling the weight, they have now began opposing.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                 January 9, 1977, Bombay                                                           474632

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, this is our main program. Print books as many as possible and distribute. This is our main program. All other programs are secondary. So with this aim in view, work all together. Our Caitanya-caritāmṛta is unique literature. For Caitanya-caritāmṛta, we are above any ācārya. There are four ācāryas: Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu-swami... But our Gauòīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's legacy, ācārya's, that is unique. Anarpita-cariṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau. Here the Supreme Personality of Godhead is personally teaching--ācārya. Anarpita-cariṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam. The highest topmost bliss, madhurya. These dealings of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, madhurya-rasa, is the contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All other ācāryas, they could not give up to this. All other ācāryas, they contributed up to friendship, no vatsalya, neither madhurya. That is this contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There was dealings of mother Yasoda with Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavata. The Vallabhācāryas'...,they have got Bala-kṛṣṇa. But the dealings of gopīs with Kṛṣṇa, that was not granted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution. Anarpita-cariṁ means was never contributed. Anarpita-carim cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasaṁ sva-bhakti-sriyam, hariḥ pūvata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitaḥ sadā hṛdaya-kandare sphurati... That is the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. How do they like Caitanya-caritāmṛta in Western...?

Rāmeśvara: The devotees like it. They relish.

Prabhupāda: It is for the devotees. It is not for the neophyte.

Rāmeśvara: It's a little difficult for the average man if it is his first book.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not for the neophyte. Those who are actually in devotional service--for them it is.

Rāmeśvara: Mostly we are selling Bhagavad-gītā, ratio of two Bhagavad-gītās for every other book, twice as many Bhagavad-gītās, as an introduction.

Prabhupāda: That is the introduction. And Śrīmad Bhāgavatam?

Rāmeśvara: First Canto. Mostly First Canto. We're only printing twenty thousand copies of every volume. But of First Canto we always print fifty thousand copies. And now Bhagavad-gītā, we have printed one and a half million copies.

Prabhupāda: That's abridged.

Rāmeśvara: For one year's sales.

Prabhupāda: That's very nice. (laughs) One and half million.

Rāmeśvara: They say it is the largest printing in the history of the Western United States. They are giving Bhaktivedanta Book Trust credit now for the largest printing of any publisher in the Western United States for one title. And for our printer, the only books... He has never printed... He prints encyclopedia, he prints the Bible, but he has never printed so many copies of one book all at one time. This one and a half million copies should be printed all at once.

Prabhupāda: They are proud of printing.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good.

Rāmeśvara: He says that his press will have to run continuously for twenty days and twenty nights just to print all these books without taking any other business.

Prabhupāda: That's a great...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India it would take one year to do.

Prabhupāda: They have very big, big printing press.

Rāmeśvara: They are so proud that they have offered to hold a big press conference to announce to the press and all the journals of printers that they have gotten this order to print so many copies of Bhagavad-gītā from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

Prabhupāda: Let them say that. This is our advertising. And let this opposition party understand that "If it is brainwash, then your whole country is now washed. (laughter) How you'll protect them? It is already washed." Tell them like that, humorous.

 

Room Conversation                                      January 10, 1977, Bombay                                                         475398

Rāmeśvara: Has Prabhupāda told you how much profit you should make? Because in America you have always said it should be marked up one hundred percent. If a book costs us one dollar, we should sell to the temple at two dollars. So your book is costing over one dollar, and you are only selling it for $1.45.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. The Bhāgavatam's costing less. The Gītās we are selling for $1.50.

Rāmeśvara: Oh.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bhāgavatams... Also the freight from here is less. That's another feeling that we have. Prabhupāda told me England, Australia, Africa should get books from India, and America, Canada, from America.

Prabhupāda: There is no consideration of big profit. Simply we want big number, distribution. That's all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also this will increase our prestige as a movement.

Prabhupāda: Big number, as big as possible. My Guru Mahārāja, he had magazines in six languages: English, Hindi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, and one Bengali daily. So if our men complained that "Such and such men are not giving their subscription, so, what we can do? Stop the supply?" Oh, he would become very angry. He asked them, "Are you commercial-hired fools? No! Supply free!" He used to say like that. He was asking, "Whether we shall stop supply? The subscription is not coming." So immediately he became angry: "Are you commercial-hired? If he's not giving price, supply him free." That was his policy. So less perfect or..., try to see how many numbers of books.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because once BBT India starts making profit, then the burden on BBT America will also be lessened. BBT India can start giving money for construction and other things. I foresee that if BBT India goes on, next, in 1977 we should make a profit of at least twenty-five lakhs rupees, twenty-five to thirty lakhs.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. And open center village to village, town to town. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. See first printing is very first class and it is distributed very widely.

 

Conversation on Train to Allahabad                                   January 11, 1977, India                                      475418

Rāmeśvara: We are going out to sell our books, and even if the person does not want to buy, we are insisting that they buy.

Prabhupāda: This is our duty. That is our duty.

Rāmeśvara: He thinks it is too aggressive.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that is your temperament, because everything has got degree according to the man. So we should not worry. This is very nice, that we are imploring.

Rāmeśvara: So his conclusion was that all the people who we are selling books to, they do not like us. That was his conclusion. So I said that if they do not like us, then why is our book sales increasing? We started off selling two hundred thousand magazines a month. Now one million a month. So if you say that people do not like us...

Prabhupāda: Not two hundred thousand.

Trivikrama: Twenty.

Hari-śauri: Ten thousand.

Prabhupāda: Began with five thousand.

Rāmeśvara: And we said that people are writing us so many letters ordering our books by mail. So you say do not like us, but we say they love us.

Prabhupāda: What was his reply?

Rāmeśvara: On every point he was defeated. Then this Reverend from the Lutheran Church, he said that we have invented this Kṛṣṇa religion. He said that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man who is a sex symbol, having so many women, gopīs, wives, and that we are saying that He is God. And this is heresy, he told us, a concoction. So he was defeated in different ways also. And at the end he had to admit that "The only way to find out is if you buy their books, so everyone go buy their books and see for yourself."

Prabhupāda: No, even taking it that Kṛṣṇa is after sex, then if sex is bad, then why you are after sex? The whole world is going on after sex. How you can deny it?

Rāmeśvara: He says that sex is not for God.

Prabhupāda: Why? If sex if not there in God, then how it comes? If God created everything, so God did not create sex?

Rāmeśvara: They think it means we are saying God has a material body, because they associate sex with material body.

Prabhupāda: Material body has no sex. A dead man does not enjoy sex. Do you think that a dead man enjoys sex? Suppose a beautiful girl--dead. Will you accept for sex? Then why do you take that sex is for the body? (train noises) "Sex if for the material body" is not the fact. When the soul is not there, where is sex?

Rāmeśvara: They consider sex to be his lower nature, animal nature.

Prabhupāda: No. Everything is..., becomes animal nature when it is perverted, when it is contaminated.

Rāmeśvara: They do not have any conception of the positive.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: They have no conception of pure life. So they think that it's just...

Prabhupāda: If they have no conception, we should give them conception that the body is dead, decomposed, then where is the sex? Where is the inclination? Similarly, the soul originally... As it is said in the Vedānta-sūtra, that "Everything is coming from Brahman." Athāto brahma-jijïāsā: "Now let us talk about Brahman." This is the meaning of athāto brahma-jijïāsāh. Then next verse is..., sūtra, code--janmādy asya yataḥ. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo. So unless sex comes from God... It may be perverted in the material world. That is another thing. But originally, pure sex must be there in God. Otherwise how it comes? Everything is emanating from the Supreme. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So how you can say there is no sex? Viśvanātha Cakravartī Öhākura explains that janmādy asya, ādi-rasa. Ādi. Ādi-rasa means sex enjoyment. So he has explained that sex has come from... Because we have used perverted sex, we have got a very bad idea. But actually sex is there in the original. Otherwise there is no question of mādhurya-rasa. Hlādinī-śakti. There is no question of sex. You do not understand Absolute. The opposition party will inquire you, but sex is originally from Brahman. That is why...

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that when Kṛṣṇa was here, He was having friendship with the gopīs, who were married to other men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This is immoral.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: God never acts in an immoral way.

Prabhupāda: So that you have made, immoral. Because if He is the proprietor, then He is the proprietor of everything. You have accepted one woman who belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You are immoral. He is the original proprietor of everything, and everything belongs to Him, but He has given you one woman. Tena tyaktena. But no woman belongs to you. So you should stop connection with women. It is immoral. Otherwise every woman belongs to Kṛṣṇa. How you can use Kṛṣṇa's property? That is the disease, that we are trying to enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property. Kṛṣṇa's the proprietor. Bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva... He's the bhokta, He's the enjoyer. How you can enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property? That is immoral. And therefore you shall be punished. You are being punished. Because we are encroaching upon Kṛṣṇa's property illegally, therefore we are suffering. Kṛṣṇa is moral, you are utilizing unauthorized, using this material...

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women.

Prabhupāda: No. Because they have not studied Kṛṣṇa, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Kṛṣṇa comes to show you that in the Vaikuṇṭha, Goloka Vṛndāvana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been found. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?"

Rāmeśvara: They say that when one man has many different women, then that is immoral.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer. Suppose you are a big man, but you are product of sex. Are you born differently or through sex? What is the answer?

Rāmeśvara: Sex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is not bad. When it is misused, that is the defect. Otherwise, sex is not...

Rāmeśvara: The Western conception is that one man can only have one woman.

Prabhupāda: Why? If he can produce many big men, he can have hundreds of women. But you cannot do that. Therefore you are restrained. You are bad. You better restrain. Don't have sex, because you'll produce cats and dogs. But one who is able to produce great brain, great philosophers, he should produce hundreds. You do not know how to produce good brain. Therefore you stop! Don't produce cats and dogs. For you it is "Stop." You do not know how to use sex. Therefore you should stop. (break) You should not any more use sex. But one who can produce better brains should have hundreds of times. You must know how to produce. That is Vedic civilization, dharmaḥ saṁskāra idam...(?) It is not a secrecy, how to produce brain. And because brain is not produced, therefore there is agitation, that they have no brain. They do not know the value of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You have been produced like cats and dogs; therefore you cannot appreciate. Therefore you should stop. But one who has power to produce brain, to produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, they should be use. Foodstuff is forbidden for a person who cannot digest. One who can digest food, he must eat sumptuously. There is no restriction for him. Food is not bad. One who cannot digest, it is bad for him. This is the conclusion. What is food for one is poison for another. If you cannot use sex power how to use it for better purposes, you should not use sex. What is that verse that Kṛṣṇa says? Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya...

Hari-śauri: Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Tasmin garbhaṁ vadāmy aham. Garbhaṁ vadāmy aham. (break) ...further condition, one who thinks there is no good or bad. Everything is bad. He is thinking, "I am your friend..."

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Good explanation--stool. Stool, this side or that side... (break) More opposition there will be, more we have to defend.

Rāmeśvara: It's forcing us to become expert in different fields.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: You said, "Take the opportunity to be well advertised."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So we have to scheme in so many different ways to take advantage of this. (train stops) (break) ...friends with all the newspaper, television and radio people. Already in Los Angeles they know us by our first names, and we know them by their first names. There is some familiarity.

Prabhupāda: Intimate with...

Rāmeśvara: And there's also a chance to meet government leaders.

Prabhupāda: Someway or other, it is becoming popular. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of...

Prabhupāda: No, no. We shall... If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.

Hari-śauri: Simplified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple.

Rāmeśvara: Completely?

Prabhupāda: No, at least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...

Rāmeśvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem--unemployment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts)

Rāmeśvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs(?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. (break) ...their so many departments will be closed.

Rāmeśvara: It's possible in India but not in America.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards.

Prabhupāda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.

Rāmeśvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world...

Prabhupāda: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom?

Rāmeśvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time.

Prabhupāda: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?

Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day...

Prabhupāda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.

Rāmeśvara: But in America...

Prabhupāda: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brāhmaṇa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, kṣatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brāhmaṇas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required--that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brāhmaṇa class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.

Rāmeśvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? Anarthas. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things.

Rāmeśvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.

Prabhupāda: "What we'll do?" (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance here. (train stops) What is this nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America...

Prabhupāda: That we want.

Rāmeśvara: ...we will have to tolerate all these things--cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things.

Prabhupāda: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.

Rāmeśvara: Very gradual.

Prabhupāda: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education.

Hari-śauri: We have to make them devotees.

Rāmeśvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take prasāda.

Jagadīśa: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kīrtana and prasādam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That's why they...

Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.

Rāmeśvara: But they will not give up sex life.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say that you give up sex life.

Rāmeśvara: That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will stop sex life. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... If they're really Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life. That is...

Hari-śauri: But that position is not very easily attainable.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not easy. Therefore we say, "Restrict this." And this will be possible if he follows our program.

Rāmeśvara: You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmīs still.

Prabhupāda: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasāda distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular. Everything will be... Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam.

Jagadīśa: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread.

Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be...

Jagadīśa: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician?

Rāmeśvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia.

Jagadīśa: But Kṛṣṇa consciousness knowledge...

Prabhupāda: In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory.

Hari-śauri: They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small.

Prabhupāda: Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism.

Rāmeśvara: So when the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?

Prabhupāda: It is due to quality of the leaders.

Rāmeśvara: But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.

Rāmeśvara: So that means the whole mass population...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Only then will Kṛṣṇa conscious government...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see.

Hari-śauri: The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple.

Prabhupāda: Simple and it is natural also.

Hari-śauri: The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take.

Prabhupāda: Our leaders must be very good.

Hari-śauri: That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there.

Prabhupāda: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone...

Rāmeśvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.

Prabhupāda: It is not church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us...

Prabhupāda: Not stereotyped church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.

Prabhupāda: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture.

Rāmeśvara: For example, this group, this new record, Golden Avatar record...

Prabhupāda: That may be for a certain class.

Rāmeśvara: It can become very popular, but if they find out it is Hare Kṛṣṇa, they will think it is religion and they will not buy it. But if we do not mention that it is Hare Kṛṣṇa right at the beginning...

Prabhupāda: Either you mention or not mention, unless they realize that it is good...

Rāmeśvara: Well, that they'll realize when they hear it. Just like our book distributors. They're not dressing as Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees; therefore they are successful. As soon as the people see that they are Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, they do not want religion.

Prabhupāda: No... Suppose a military dress... Then there are different dresses. When it is understood properly, dress is immaterial. The military dress... Everyone knows that their business is to kill. That does not mean they are hated. Similarly, people see, and when they understand, that is the process.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, when Kamsa was being a little lenient with Vasudeva, Nārada Muni thought to speed things up, so he instigated Kamsa to become frightened about Vasudeva and Devaki and their children. So similarly, it appears that in order to speed up Kṛṣṇa consciousness's infiltration and overtaking this materialistic society, that all of these brainwashing charges and...

Prabhupāda: It has got... The chanting has got spiritual power. That will rectify everything. Even there is misunderstanding, it will be rectified. That is spiritual power.

Rāmeśvara: The chanting for the mass of people is by reading your books.

Prabhupāda: That will rectify everything. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. All misunderstanding gone away.

Rāmeśvara: We have to be very clever.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: In America it requires being very clever to get them to read your books. Even if they buy millions of books, there's no guarantee that they're reading it. So we have to make other kinds of propaganda.

Prabhupāda: No, at least it is expected they will read: "What is this book I have purchased? Let me see." Reading, of course, meant for intelligent class.

Hari-śauri: Well, just like this radio show, there were so many things said, but at the end, even the man who was blaspheming said, "Well, I guess we'll just have to read your books and find out what it's about." So if people hear a controvity and we're arguing one way, they argue another way, then if the book's there, they'll naturally want to read it just to see actually what's the fact.

Rāmeśvara: We are starting a new radio show again in America. Formerly we had a show called "The Kṛṣṇa Show." So we're starting it again, and it will be nationwide. And there will be a lot of controversy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to take advantage of the modern medium of publicity.

Rāmeśvara: Radio and even television.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone watches television. If they see it on television it is--"That's a fact."

Prabhupāda: We have to show how we are eating, how we are sleeping, how we are talking. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa)

Rāmeśvara: The only hope is if Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence--because we're so stupid.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already given you. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is simple truth. Believe in Kṛṣṇa. That means Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says is truth. That's all. This is intelligence: "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth."

Hari-śauri: Even if one is not so clever, still, if he simply repeats and presents Kṛṣṇa, then that's enough.

Prabhupāda: Firm faith. Firm faith: "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is all right."

Hari-śauri: Because ultimately Kṛṣṇa is the doer of everything.

Prabhupāda: Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛòha niścaya. This is basic platform, that "What Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth." Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If I follow Kṛṣṇa, then my business is complete." This is intelligence. Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas--hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice.

Hari-śauri: To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in... Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm. (background talking)

Hari-śauri: He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive. And also we have to use modern farming techniques because we have so few men to run the farms.

Prabhupāda: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.

Hari-śauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it's ready to do that?

Prabhupāda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa)

Rāmeśvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am... Farms.

Rāmeśvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.

Prabhupāda: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindaban.

Rāmeśvara: Many people... Most people in the world, they are gṛhamedhīs, and they cannot give it up so easily.

Prabhupāda: "No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain gṛhamedhī."

Jagadīśa: New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jagadīśa: There has to be some modern convenience.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Then we shall do that.

Rāmeśvara: But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up.

Prabhupāda: (train slows down) What is the nonsense? No, there is a station? No station.

Jagadīśa: Why does this train keep stopping? (train stops)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Jagadīśa: Why does the train keep stopping?

Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman?

Hari-śauri: Pradyumna?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Pradyumna.

Rāmeśvara: Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways.

Prabhupāda: But you said that there is unemployment also.

Rāmeśvara: To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them...

Prabhupāda: So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. But for the mass population...

Prabhupāda: Well, gradually you will increase and...

Rāmeśvara: We have to give them something that they can do in their home.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple.

Prabhupāda: No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.

Jagadīśa: On the farm.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive.

Jagadīśa: But for those who are already employed...

Rāmeśvara: But most people have jobs.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: Many people already have their jobs and their families.

Prabhupāda: All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come.

Rāmeśvara: But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of...

Prabhupāda: That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry. (laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come. Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they'll be jobless.

Hari-śauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this.

Prabhupāda: They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society. That is the...

Jagadīśa: If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is--what is called?--bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being?

Rāmeśvara: Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers.

Prabhupāda: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower.

Rāmeśvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp.

Rāmeśvara: No. But if we had many people, then gradually we could help them become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But I think they all... One thing that scares people is that we ask too much...

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is...

Rāmeśvara: ...at the beginning. We are asking too much.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So if we ask just a little bit, then gradually we increase.

Prabhupāda: No, little bit we say, that "You come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda."

Jagadīśa: "And read our books."

Prabhupāda: Suppose you are illiterate, you cannot. But you can do this--"Come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam."

Rāmeśvara: That is a big misunderstanding in America. People think that to be a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to give up everything.

Prabhupāda: That... Yes, you have to give up everything which is bad. Do you think drinking is very good?

Rāmeśvara: (chuckling) No.

Prabhupāda: So if I say, "You have to give it up," so what is the wrong there?

Rāmeśvara: But they feel that unless they give up everything all at once, they cannot become members of the Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: No, you'll automatically give...

Rāmeśvara: Gradually he'll automatically...

Prabhupāda: He'll give up.

Hari-śauri: (train starts to move again) First thing is to begin the positive process. Then the negative process will follow along.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If he understands it is very nice to chant, dance, and take prasādam, they'll give up.

Rāmeśvara: Many people think that if you become a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to shave your head.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Rāmeśvara: But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us.

Prabhupāda: No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: So much inconvenience for washing.

Rāmeśvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people.

Prabhupāda: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life.

Rāmeśvara: But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing.

Prabhupāda: Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely."

Rāmeśvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: We say... We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."

Rāmeśvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.

Rāmeśvara: It's our choice.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to...

Prabhupāda: Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.

Rāmeśvara: Ultimately, it is the best thing.

Prabhupāda: If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in.

Rāmeśvara: I have been studying this record business in the last month or two.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: I've been studying the record business in America. People spend more money on records than they do on books. In general people are buying more records than books.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Give them some seat. Is there any carpet? Bring something.

Hari-śauri: What time do you want to take prasādam, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's 8:25 now.

Prabhupāda: Whenever... You take?

Hari-śauri: Well, we'll all take in that other carriage, and you can eat undisturbed. I'll remain here or whatever you want.

Prabhupāda: I may take little later.

Hari-śauri: Well, we can take later on.

Rāmeśvara: So I found out that people spend more money on records than on books in America. That means that if we sell our record in the store, it can bring us a lot of income. In general, people spend more money on records.

Prabhupāda: So you get more income. For using it, let them come and take prasādam. Don't accumulate money.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Get money and spend it.

Rāmeśvara: Prasāda distribution is the best thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: There was a big parade in Los Angeles called the Rose Bowl, one million people. So we made ten thousand bags of peanuts and raisins and called it "Govinda's Nuts 'n' Raisins." We were tossing it to the crowd, and they were going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Here! Kṛṣṇa!" They were begging for it.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Rāmeśvara: We could have passed out prasāda for one million people if we had had enough money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Earn money like that.

Rāmeśvara: It costs a lot of money.

Prabhupāda: Either produce food in the farm or earn money and purchase, but give prasādam.

Rāmeśvara: We saw it, that they know it was Kṛṣṇa prasāda, and they were standing up in the crowds, "Kṛṣṇa! Here!" and begging for it.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So they have at least chanted "Kṛṣṇa." That is our profit.

Rāmeśvara: And everyone liked it. And we were giving it out for free. That they very much appreciated.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone else is taking their money, but when we give them prasāda for free, they very much appreciate it.

Prabhupāda: So do that. There is no need of accumulating money and pay income tax and botheration. Spend it. Always remain empty pocket.

Rāmeśvara: So I was thinking to develop this record group so we can make lots of money.

Prabhupāda: You make lots of money and spend lots of money. Don't keep it in the pocket. What is the use of keeping? No income.

Rāmeśvara: So our only interest is to spend it as fast as we get it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spend it for distribution. They'll say, "Kṛṣṇa, give us prasāda!" And that is our triumph. They chant and "Kṛṣṇa." That's all right. "Take prasāda."

Rāmeśvara: So I'm encouraging them to make more records like the "Change of Heart."

Prabhupāda: We are not dry, simply talking philosophy. "Take prasāda. Eat sumptuously."

Rāmeśvara: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if people become followers of a particular music group, then they take their message and their life-style very seriously. Just like when the people were following the Beatles, and then the Beatles became involved with meditation, so this made it very popular in America. If the group becomes... If the music group becomes popular, then whatever they do, everyone follows. So I am thinking that we can make this music group, Golden Avatar, very popular. Then everyone will find out that they believe in reincarnation and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everyone will follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes, something "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" music must be there.

Rāmeśvara: Now, to make this group very popular, they have to have Western dress.

Prabhupāda: Never mind.

Rāmeśvara: That's no problem.

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: And they have to have long hair or wigs, or else they grow it. But somehow or other, they cannot be shaven-headed Hare Kṛṣṇaś.

Prabhupāda: Long hair is not... We should not do that.

Rāmeśvara: They have to have wigs then.

Prabhupāda: Why wigs?

Rāmeśvara: Because in America all the musicians have hair, because that way people become attracted to them.

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot take hair. That is not possible. We cannot become hippies.

Rāmeśvara: No, not hippies. So then, rather than growing their hair, they should wear wigs. Just like our book distributors do not grow their hair long, but they wear wigs.

Prabhupāda: But do you mean to say unless you have long hairs, they will not hear your song?

Rāmeśvara: Medium.

Prabhupāda: That's not. If they like your song, it doesn't matter whether you have long hairs or not.

Rāmeśvara: The main thing is they cannot be wearing śikhā and shaved head.

Prabhupāda: That must be there.

Rāmeśvara: But when they make public appearances, they have to be in disguise.

Prabhupāda: Make public to become gentlemen. Formerly they had no long hairs. They dressed like gentlemen. That we cannot do.

Rāmeśvara: So it doesn't have to be very long. But I don't think it will become popular unless they are in disguise, wearing Western clothes and a little bit of hair.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But formerly your father, grandfather, they had no long hair.

Rāmeśvara: No, they will not dress like hippie. They will dress nicely.

Prabhupāda: Then that is allowed. But we cannot imitate the hippies.

Rāmeśvara: No. I'm just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhotī.

Prabhupāda: No, dhotī, I don't say. You have nice coat-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that "You put on dhotī." But those who are sannyāsīs, brahmacārīs, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyāsī.

Hari-śauri: The wigs he's suggesting are just short ones, short hair wigs.

Rāmeśvara: Yeah. As long as it's not hippy, it is all right. It has to be attractive. Gentlemen. I have taken this record, "Change of Heart," to the biggest record companies in America, and they are very encouraging. They think that we have got a very wonderful message.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.

Rāmeśvara: They are astonished at the..., the words to the songs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: I think if this group is... If this is done...

Prabhupāda: Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi. Our message is to kill the māyā. This is wonderful message, undoubtedly. Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi, hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi: "Take this hari-nāma." It is very important message.

Rāmeśvara: In America, say a music group becomes popular, very popular. Then automatically, every time they make their record album, one million people will buy it in the stores without any salesmen. Automatically one million. It's considered very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So make records "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa."

Rāmeśvara: And for each record our profit is $2.50. So $2.50 times one million records becomes millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: Spend it for prasāda distribution. Don't squander it. Every cent should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa, not for sense gratification.

Rāmeśvara: Now, some of the money could be sent to India for ISKCON Food Relief.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: That would be very good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That will make our movement very popular in India.

Rāmeśvara: They're always complaining that there's not enough money for food distribution in India.

Prabhupāda: So kindly send me as much as possible. Therefore these farming projects will be very nice.

Rāmeśvara: That'll be great, if we can use the money... Do you think I should set up a separate account for the records, so that all the profit is used for food distribution?

Prabhupāda: Why not? Very good idea.

Rāmeśvara: So that will be a special means of raising money for prasāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: This idea will be very popular with the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So now you can distribute...

Hari-śauri: Take prasāda... (indistinct) (break) (train stops)

Rāmeśvara: That's the British propaganda, that they came to India and made India more civilized.

Prabhupāda: This is civilization, that running, congested, hanging on. These rascals...

Rāmeśvara: Their famous phrase was "The white man's burden."

Prabhupāda: Unless they made such propaganda, how they could stay? They must give some plea that "I am staying for their benefit." That was the propaganda all through. And any Indian who would agree to say in the League of Nations and when there is conference, "Yes, we are so much benefited," he would be made secretary, governor. The flatterer, he would be made governor.

Rāmeśvara: So they kicked the British out, but they still have the British system.

Prabhupāda: They have learned this. They have been accustomed... And by nature they are not, I mean to say, dovetailed to this system of life.

Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they just can't do it. They can't live like that.

Prabhupāda: And now we are going to Kumbha Mela, a religious assemble. In the Western countries you don't find so much.

Rāmeśvara: No. In the 1960's in America they tried to have such assemblies, but they simply were becoming naked and having drugs--LSD, marijuana--in the name of spiritual festival. I remember very prominent festivals in America, but everyone was simply naked. They thought that was spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Naked? Fully naked?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They would hold the festivals sometimes in the hills with a stream. It was very popular; everybody would go to the stream and bathe naked. And then the TV would come and film. There was one big one that they had in England, and the front pages on all the newspapers was one hippie couple that... Someone had spread some foam everywhere, and in the middle of the foam this hippie couple were naked having sex, and they put the picture in all the papers. This was love and peace.

Prabhupāda: I have seen John...

Hari-śauri: John Lennon.

Prabhupāda: ...naked.

Rāmeśvara: Naked. With his wife.

Prabhupāda: That picture is in his sitting room. I was talking with him in his sitting room, and fireplace and... Of course, that Chandler Place(?), a very big and glorious picture.

Hari-śauri: Cats and dogs.

Rāmeśvara: That's changed. America has given that up a little bit. They do not have these big gatherings anymore. The hippie movement in America is stopped.

Prabhupāda: What is the next movement?

Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughs)

Rāmeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. They're just waiting now. They are waiting for something to happen.

Hari-śauri: All these religious, what they call the religious cults, came immediately after the hippies. That's the big thing now. There was the growth period for those. Now they're trying to destroy them. Of course, they won't destroy us, but they've succeeded in one or two other groups. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...below one person.(?) In the name of religious men, because they are not civilized even, it is further, further. This is going on. Actually there was no such...

Rāmeśvara: And another thing that came out of the hippie movement is this abortion. Because the whole thing... The slogan was "free sex." So now they have free sex.

Hari-śauri: Women's liberation was another thing.

Rāmeśvara: All based on sex. Abortion, divorce--everything related to sex has increased.

Hari-śauri: They used to carry signs, "I want the control of my body," the women, the women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: That is woman's liberation.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. "I can do with my body whatever I like. Nobody can tell me what to do. If I want to kill my child, I can kill." (break)

Prabhupāda: The child has father's..., the life from father's property, and the mother is only giving you shelter. She is not the proprietor. Even in other's, womb of other's wife, a child is born... I give birth to a child in other's wife, that is my child. Mother is considered the field, kṣetra. But when I till the kṣetra, field, the production is mine. This idea. The land may be yours, but if I plow on it and produce food grains, that is mine. That is not yours. This is the... Even in other's wife, if somebody begets child, the child belongs to the father. There are many instances. (break) Mat-prāṇa-nāthas: "Still, you are My Lord." That is love. "My love is conditional. If you do to my liking, then I love you"--that is not love. That is not love; that is business. That business is going on under the name of love. A man and woman--"If you have got pocket filled up with money, I love you. If you have got beauty, then I love you." That is not love. That is lust! They do not know what is love.

Hari-śauri: They have no idea of actually who is God or what is God. They don't know...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They make God under his condition. That is not God. God cannot be under your condition.

Hari-śauri: God cannot have sixteen thousand wives. God cannot appear at all.

Rāmeśvara: They say that if God had all of these things, then He would have revealed them in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot, rascal, manage that. That is the difference between him and God. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palaces. You cannot maintain one apartment.

Rāmeśvara: In the Bible...

Prabhupāda: You tell them like that: "You are so poor that you are afraid to maintain even one wife. So how you can be equal with God?"

Hari-śauri: His argument was that...

Prabhupāda: No argument! This is fact!

Rāmeśvara: Yes, this is fact.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument.

Rāmeśvara: No. He's not arguing that.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do. You are so poor that you are afraid to marry because you have to take so much responsibility.

Rāmeśvara: He wants to know, then, why didn't Jesus Christ say all these things about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Jesus may be fool. That doesn't mean everyone should be fool.

Rāmeśvara: They believe Jesus came to this world to teach people about God.

Prabhupāda: "Jesus... Jesus had to speak to rascals and fools like you. Therefore he did not speak." This is the argument. "Because you are such a fool that Jesus said, 'Thou shall not kill'--your first business was to kill him. So you are so nice, advanced men. Now, what he'll speak to you? He knew that you are all rascals. Even the one word you cannot understand, 'Thou shall not kill.' So what you will understand? Therefore Jesus Christ did not say." Give them this answer. Jesus Christ was perfect, but because you are rascals, he did not say, because you could not understand even his one word. You are so intelligent. His commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but your business is to kill him first. How far you are advanced and civilized, just imagine. And you want perfect instruction. You cannot follow even one instruction. That is your position. In this way try to understand. "Jesus had to deal with rascals like you. Therefore he... Even ordinary moral principles, you could not, what to speak of other things." Actually that is the fact. Actually that is the fact. He had to deal with rascals and fools. Is that civilization, that first of all argue, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you were all rascals engaged in killing business. Is that civilized men? Why he said like that? Is that very good philosophy? Mean they were so low class that they had to be stopped first of all, these sinful activities. That also, they could not. This is their position. And for the last two thousand years they could not. Such nice brain. They could not understand even one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are proud of becoming Christian, rascals. "You do not know what is Christianity, what is Jesus Christ. You are all rascals." Tell them like that. What do you think?

Rāmeśvara: That's indefeatable, undefeatable argument.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You could not understand.

Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not kill..."

Prabhupāda: Although he spoke very cautiously, still you could not do it.

Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not commit adultery."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: It's a very good counterattack, that "You try to criticize us, but actually what is your position?" They have no position. That man, he was trying to criticize Kṛṣṇa as being a concoction or whatever, but we can practically see that his own religion is completely useless.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that also I have given. Kṛṣṇa might have hundreds and thousands, but where is the pregnancy and contraception?

Rāmeśvara: And abortion.

Prabhupāda: So if sex life without this botheration, it is welcome. We welcome that. Sex is enjoyment; that is all right. But here it is condemned because it is entailed with so many botherations.

Hari-śauri: We can practically establish both points.

Prabhupāda: Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis--his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. "So it is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied, your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years the rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul.

Rāmeśvara: That is their excuse.

Prabhupāda: But who cares for this excuse? It is not scientific. Is there any difference, anatomy and physiology, of the animals and the...

Rāmeśvara: They do not know what the soul means.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, when there is opportunity, condemn them like anything. It is opportunity to expose them.

Hari-śauri: We should do that, expose them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? When they are attacking, you must attack.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Attack them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very practical: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa enjoyed sex. But where is abortion? Where is contraceptive pill?"

Hari-śauri: Actually, by practical example we can show that by following Kṛṣṇa, so many people are giving up intoxication, giving up so many sinful activities. But by following your Christian religion, it's not done them any good whatsoever. It's not changed their lives whatsoever. This man, he described our movement as very dangerous. On the radio he said, "This is dangerous," because we're trying to establish Kṛṣṇa as God and He's not stated in the Bible, and therefore we are very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Christ is described as son of God, but where is the father? That means you are so rascal, you do not care to understand the father. And we are presenting the father, the father of Christ. And you are condemning. You do not know who is the father of Christ.

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God wanted Himself to be known as Kṛṣṇa, He would have...

Prabhupāda: But you do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means "all-attractive." That is God. That is God.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. I tried to explain. But he said Kṛṣṇa means that person who appeared in India five thousand years ago. That is Kṛṣṇa. So he said if God is Kṛṣṇa, then there would be some evidence in the Bible, but there is no evidence.

Prabhupāda: There is ev... There is evidence. Because... But you are so fool that you do not inquire, "If the Christ is son of God, who is God?" They never inquires. Why did you not inquire?

Rāmeśvara: He said that God spoke to Moses. God did not tell Moses that He was Kṛṣṇa. He told Moses that He is jehovah.

Prabhupāda: Did Christ say that "jehovah is my father"?

Rāmeśvara: That makes it very clear.

Hari-śauri: I can't remember ever seeing... Jesus never used a name. He only spoke about "my father."

Prabhupāda: And who is that father? Why did you not...? So here is the father. You should be obliged to us that we are bringing...

Hari-śauri: There are so many names anyway.

Prabhupāda: Then why not Kṛṣṇa?

Hari-śauri: Yes, exactly. Just like Allah means "the great one," so Kṛṣṇa means "the all-attractive one." It's the same God.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was proved, and still He is proved. Who is reading others' book all over the world? Therefore He is God. Where is that book so respected as Bhagavad-gītā? Who is printing so many books? Not even Bible. They respected Bible. Why the foreigners are reading Bhagavad-gītā? That is the proof that Kṛṣṇa is God. During the Christmas festival we sold our books greatest number in the history. How many copies Bible you have sold? That is the proof. Here is God. Otherwise why Christians should purchase Bhagavad-gītā during Christmas holiday? And because Kṛṣṇa is God, therefore you have come to fight. Who is going to fight with jehovah? Who is going to fight with jehovah movement?

Hari-śauri: Well, just like in the Middle East area, if they want to describe God or if they want to glorify God, they refer to Him as the Almighty One. And that word that means "Almighty One" is Allah. So if in India they want to glorify God by calling Him the All-attractive One, and that word is Kṛṣṇa, then what is the wrong?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: This is a problem. Because they're such mūòhas, as soon as there's a name and a form, they immediately associate with material nature, material personality.

Prabhupāda: Give me little tangerine.

Hari-śauri: Tangerine?

Rāmeśvara: I was just telling Jagadīśa that you said you were confident that the Indian government understands that this movement is turning the whole world towards Indian culture. So it seems logical that one day it will endorse us.

Prabhupāda: They are endorsing. They stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They are endorsing?

Prabhupāda: They have stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They stopped cow-killing. Prabhupāda said that it is directly our movement...

Prabhupāda: It is not Vinobha Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped.

Rāmeśvara: They have stopped it because they see we are getting so much support?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. (pause) (aside:) No, no. One skinned. (pause) So you have all answers?

Rāmeśvara: Many answers. You have all the answers.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I am speaking you how to answer. (long pause) So much land lying vacant. Yajïād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. There is no yajïa. Therefore there is no rain. (break) ...and it will increase. Because the people will increase their godlessness, so the rainfall will stop. Now lick up your motorcar. This is going on. Anavṛṣṭya durbhikṣa dāra-pīòitaḥ. One side, anavṛṣṭi, there is no food grain, and government taxation. People will be so harassed, they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. Cannot manage. (break) ...God awakening your country to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Someway or other, there is agitation. This agitation must go on and then turn it towards favorable time. Agitation is there. That is good. (japa) (break)

Rāmeśvara: They say that in the Vedas, Viṣṇu comes first and Kṛṣṇa is expansion of Viṣṇu, and we have concocted that Kṛṣṇa is the adi-puruṣa.

Prabhupāda: But he accepted that?

Rāmeśvara: No, we defeated that argument.

Prabhupāda: No, no... (break) The man who says that, so ask him that "You accept this, that Viṣṇu, there is, Supreme, and Viṣṇu's incarnation is Kṛṣṇa?"

Rāmeśvara: He accepted it.

Prabhupāda: Then I accept you. Then you accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, or this Veda.(?) Then I accept you. So there is no fight. You accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. We accept. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Another one was that even the president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he commented in the Bhagavad-gītā that you should not worship Kṛṣṇa, that the Bhagavad-gītā is not for worshiping Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is..., that rascal, Radhakrishnan says. Vyāsadeva does not say. Arjuna does not say.

Hari-śauri: But he was the president of India.

Prabhupāda: President was therefore kicked out. māyā has kicked out on his face. (laughter) Who cares for Radhakrishnan? In India, who cares for Radhakrishnan? They worship Kṛṣṇa. So therefore they have urined on the face of Radhakrishnan. Say like that, (laughter) that "Indian people have passed urine on his head, and they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. This is Radhakrishnan." Tell him like that. "Who cares for Radhakrishnan?" Do you mean to say they have stopped worshiping Kṛṣṇa in so many millions of temples? That is the proof: they have passed urine on the face of Radhakrishnan. Is that all right?

Hari-śauri: (laughing) Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And I found an article in the Time magazine about another translator of Bhagavad-gītā, Christopher Isherwood.

Prabhupāda: He is rascal, another rascal.

Rāmeśvara: They have reported that he is a homosexual.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Now, who cares for all these nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: In regards to brainwashing, they claim that our life-style tends to take the devotee and isolate him from the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We hate to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. In England still, the rich quarter is different from the poor quarter. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Not so much. It was though, formerly, very strongly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aristocratic will never live... Even in America, they don't like to live with the blacks.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) That child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together."

Jagadīśa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.

Jagadīśa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ.

Rāmeśvara: They have a list of five or six conditions, and they say if all those conditions are there, then it is a suitable atmosphere for brainwashing. And they say we are imposing those conditions on our members.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are brainwashing from bad to good. That is our business. We are washing the brain from all rascaldom. That is our business. You are... Your brain is filled up with all rubbish things: meat-eating and illicit sex, gambling. So we are washing them. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hrdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi. Abhadrānī washing. Abhadrāṇi means bad things. The bad things should be washed off. Don't you cleanse your home? Don't you cleanse your room? Is not that brainwashing? So if you wash your room very cleansed, who blames you? But you are so rascal that "Why you are washing this garbage?" you are protesting. You are such an intelligent man. We are washing the garbage; you are protesting, "Why you are washing the garbage?" This is your intelligence. But intelligent men wash the garbage. That is the law of nature, cleanse. That we are doing. According to Vedic civilization, you are actually untouchable. Now we have come to touch you; therefore wash you must first. You are untouchable. In Indian civilization, dog is untouchable, and that is your best friend. So you are not touchable. Therefore we have to wash you. And unless your brain is washed, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. So it is necessary. Is that all right? Dog is your best friend. In India dog is untouchable. So "Man is known by his company." If your best friend is dog, then what you are? We can understand your position because you sleep with dog, you eat with dog, your best friend is dog, so what you are? You must be washed. It is a fact. Every woman, every man, has some dog.

Jagadīśa: Dog or cat.

Prabhupāda: Mostly dog. So "Man is known by his company." Your constant company is dog, so what you are? These are the way. Actually, according to Vedic... Why they do not allow Europeans in the Jagannātha temple? Because they are untouchable. According to Vedic civilization, Europeans are untouchable. Muslims and..., untouchable. Not only foreigners, even in their own country, those who are not very cleansed, they are untouchable. Another's eatable things, they're untouchable. Just like hog. If you give him halavā, he will not take it. He will eat stool. Therefore hog is so abominable. Similarly, in your country there are so many nice foodstuffs. Milk is so abundant. You do not know how to utilize milk. You are cutting the poor animal and the rotten flesh you are... You do not know how to utilize the milk. Milk is nothing but blood. Those who are eating, drinking milk with different varieties of preparation, they are also utilizing the blood. But you are drinking blood and flesh directly. You do not know how to keep the animals alive and supply you constantly the blood and eat it.(?) (Utilize?) That you do not know. You are so uncivilized. The man in the jungle, they eat meat because they do not know--they are not civilized--how to utilize the by-products. So you're now in the same position. You do not know how to utilize the blood of cow scientifically. You are so uncivilized. You become... What is milk? The milk is nothing but blood.

Jagadīśa: Even in the Bible...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from Bible, I am speaking from practical point of view. What is milk? Milk is blood. If the mother is unhealthy, anemic, you cannot keep. It dries away.(?) Milk is transformed from the blood. That's a fact. Now our cows in New Vrindaban, they are supplying more milk than in other farms. So you do not know how to utilize blood. You are so uncivilized. And you are claiming to be civilized. You are untouchable. You do not know what is the... Yes, in our New Vrindaban the men from other farms, they come. They are surprised. "Milk can give, this much?"(?) You know that? They are uncivilized, cutthroat. And therefore they are now eating better. You are not civilized. Don't talk of anything. First of all be civilized. Give up sin, sinful activities. Then come to understand what is God.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book you describe that the only person who can't understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the killer of the cow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal. Why cow? Any animal.

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano 'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt

pumān virajyeta vinā paśughnāt

Unless one is animal-killer, everyone welcomes God. This very word is used, vinā paśughnāt. Excepting these persons who are animal killers, everyone will welcome Kṛṣṇa. It is so nasty thing, animal-killing. So you require thoroughly to be washed. Then you'll understand. Actually it is brainwashing. Civilized man, in the presence of so many nice grains, fruits, flowers, vegetables, milk, so many things, and you are eating meat like the man in the jungle? Are you civilized? Does it mean that the fruit, flowers and grains is meant for animals? It is meant for human beings. You do not know how to utilize it. You are in the state of the animals. You kill animals and eat. Don't claim that you are civilized. Therefore your brain requires to be thoroughly washed to become civilized. Therefore your brain requires to be thoroughly washed to become civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then talk of civilization. Therefore Jesus Christ first of all requested you "Don't kill." That is also brainwash, cleanse your brain. But you could not take the brainwash. Your brain is congested with so much dirty things that you could not take the instruction of Jesus Christ, and you claim to be Christian. Be ashamed. Don't come forward. Be ashamed. You have no shame even. You are so--what is called?--fool that you do not know what is defective. What is that English proverb? "Fools rush in where angels dare not." You are such a fool that you are running in to obstruct Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is... Even the demigods, they aspire after it. You are such a fool. You are rushing in. So we take pity upon you, and therefore we are trying to expand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But be sane; don't talk insanity. (break) And here you see big, big scholars that "Yes, here is Indian statement for the whole..." There are many saintly persons. Who cares for your Bible? And Bhagavad-gītā all over the world... Even if you take Dr. Radhakrishnan, elected as authority, he has tried to comment on Bhagavad-gītā, not on your Bible. Has he done? Who cares for your Bible? He may speak favorably or unfavorably, that is Bhagavad-gītā. But he has not spoken a word upon the Bible. Who cares for you? Not only here, all over the world, who is going to take the Bhagavad-gītā, er, Bible? And we are selling millions of copies of Bhagavad-gītā. That is proof Kṛṣṇa is God. We can say that we have got at home. Here is God. What do you think?

Rāmeśvara: When we argue like that, they cannot say anything.

Prabhupāda: We must. "No, you have taken Dr. Radhakrishnan authority. Has he commented on Bible? Why not? That is not even worth commenting on." You have to attack like that.

Hari-śauri: If President Nixon had written a commentary on the Bible, no one in America would accept it. Then why should they accept Radhakrishnan's?

Prabhupāda: No, Radhakrishnan may say so, but who has accepted? You are, because you are a fool. Same argument, that people have passed urine on his face, and they are worshiping. They have not stopped Kṛṣṇa worshiping because Radhakrishnan has said, restriction. (?) Who cares for him? Vṛndāvana, there are five thousand temples. Every day thousands of people are coming. We have started Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple very recently, and thousands of men are coming. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? Daye mane nāpa ni more (?) "Nobody cares for him; he becomes leader." What is the value of such leader? If somebody cares for that person, then he's leader. Nobody cares for him? He's leader for you because you are a rascal. You do not know anything. So he may be leader for men like you, but India... Nobody cares for him. Is it not? Who cares for Radhakrishnan?

Hari-śauri: Nobody mentions Radhakrishnan.

Prabhupāda: Who cares for Vivekananda? Who cares for Dayananda? Nobody cares. They are doing their own business. Still, daily two lakhs of contributions in Vaikuṇṭhanātha temple, Tirupati, still. Who is paying their money? Ordinary payers. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? India is not so fool that by the words of Radhakrishnan they will stop worshiping Kṛṣṇa, will not worship Kṛṣṇa. India, although poverty-stricken, illiterate, but they have got their still... All, millions of people, will come in this Mela. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? There are so many atheists came and gone, things are going on as it is. This is culture.

Rāmeśvara: Now in the Western countries, the standard of culture and education is coming from the idea of the Renaissance in Europe.

Prabhupāda: That is not culture. That is not culture. As soon as you change, that means it is not culture. It is mano-dharma, mental concoction. Culture is never changed, Renaissance and Fennaissance.

Rāmeśvara: This is something that has been constant for many hundreds of years, the idea that a man is learned when he is well-learned, when he is educated in many different fields--literature, art, music.

Prabhupāda: That does not mean the original culture will be lost. That is not culture.

Rāmeśvara: No. But this is their argument, that the standard in America is that you become learned in different fields: science, music, art, literature. But in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement we are isolating all these things and simply reading one set of literature--Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And therefore our people cannot speak about art, music.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We want to stop your nonsense. That is our mission. Those who are intelligent, they have taken. And you also take. It will take some time.

Rāmeśvara: Another big argument is regarding the children. They say that "You believe in free choice. So suppose the children grow up and they want to go to college. But you have not sent them to a public school. Therefore they are not eligible for going to college."

Prabhupāda: No, it is... They are saved from becoming like you or hippies. You'll become hippie after going to the college, so they are saved. You'll become naked and you'll have, like cats and dogs, sex on the street. But these children are saved.

Rāmeśvara: But what if they change later on in their life?

Prabhupāda: They have become Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner they are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it.

Rāmeśvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists.

Prabhupāda: First of all you say that we want to stop this nonsense, that is the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dance. You are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But the civilized(?) thing must go on. So we want to stop this. Is that education?

Rāmeśvara: Now they say if we are thinking of our members to be gentlemen, then why is it when they go to the airports they are bothering so many people?

Prabhupāda: They are not bothering; they are educating. You take... A rascal, when he is advised... A thief when he's advised, "Kindly do not become a thief," he takes it botheration, but that is good advice.

Rāmeśvara: They say it is invasion of privacy.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Why privacy?

Rāmeśvara: They say every man has the right to think the way he wants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I have go the right to think like that.

Rāmeśvara: So if I don't want to hear your philosophy, why are you imposing?

Prabhupāda: It is not imposing. It is good philosophy. We are canvassing, "Take it. You'll be benefited." And they are being benefited. Those who are reading, they are being benefited. Just like we are canvassing. We are Americans. You are not benefited. Therefore you are... Our Guru Mahārāja, Indian, he is not coming. We are doing, because we are benefited. We know we are benefited. Therefore it must be spread. That is our success. "Good thing must be given." Why you are advertising big, big order(?), "Please come and purchase Ford car," "Purchase Chevrolet car"? Yearly. Why you are canvassing?

Rāmeśvara: Because we think it is nice. To make money.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Why you are imposing your so-called goodness to others and spending so much money? Why you are doing?

Rāmeśvara: It is not physical. It is just mental.

Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?

Rāmeśvara: It is a booming business, big business.

Prabhupāda: Our business is sai vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ. First of all is mentality. Man-manā mad-bhakto. Mental cure, then physically devotee. "Always think of Me." This is the cure, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Beginning: always think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the treatment. It is proved. Mentally he'll be cured. And then physically after. Nice (indistinct). They do not know how things are happening. (japa) Thinking, feeling, willing. First of all thinking, then feeling, then willing, then working. (break) ...and spending for military strength. They are not performing yajïa, so how there will be rainfall? There will be warfare, devastation. Most rubbish civilization, modern misleading, soul-killing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Kṛṣṇa's business. So we have to do our business. Let the dogs bark on. We don't care for it. If we remain sincere to Kṛṣṇa, that is our victory, not the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. We have to act according to direction of Kṛṣṇa, that much. We want to see good result. Even there is no good result, we don't mind. We must be sincere to Kṛṣṇa that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. As servant, we shall not cheat the master. Result, no result--that depends on Kṛṣṇa. We should not be sorry if there is not result. Never mind. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "I have brought to Benares hari-nāma, but here they are full of Māyāvādīs. So if it is not sold, all right, I shall take it back." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. So we should not be anxious whether the things are sold or not. But we must do our best canvassing work: "Please take it." That is our duty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break)

Rāmeśvara: ...mukta-saìgaḥ samācara: "Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed. Otherwise, work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage." Should I read the purport? Purport. "Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that the purpose can be fulfilled. Yajïa means Lord Viṣṇu or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu. The Vedas enjoin: yajïo vai viṣṇuḥ. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajïas or directly serves Lord Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is therefore performance of yajïa as it is prescribed in this verse. The varṇāśrama institution also aims at this for satisfying Lord Viṣṇu. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 3.8.8.). Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. Any other work done in this material world will be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore one has to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to satisfy Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage. This is the great art of doing work, and in the beginning this process requires very expert guidance. One should therefore act very diligently under the expert guidance of a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, or under the direct instruction of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, under whom Arjuna had the opportunity to work. Nothing should be performed for sense gratification, but everything should be done for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. This practice will not only save one from the reaction of work but will also gradually elevate one to transcendental loving service of the Lord, which alone can raise one to the kingdom of God." (break)

Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad Gītā, there are many, but why ours is selling so many? Because we have named "As It Is". Is that the reason?

Rāmeśvara: The main reason is because our men are pushing.

Prabhupāda: That is the reason.

Hari-śauri: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy.

Prabhupāda: Canvassing. Canvassing.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. (break) "While we are living, let it be comfortable."

Prabhupāda: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect.

Rāmeśvara: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy.

Prabhupāda: Canvassing. Canvassing.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. (break) "While we are living, let it be comfortable."

Prabhupāda: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect.

Rāmeśvara: "We are working on it."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then kick on your face. "We are working on it."

Rāmeśvara: But in the meantime, it should be as convenient as possible to live.

Prabhupāda: This is all childish. We cannot accept it. Madmen. In the history there is no such thing, and you are trying. And we have to believe it. These things are believed by rascals, and it is proposed by rascals. Rascals believe it. No intelligence at all.

Rāmeśvara: In America everyone has a very nice house with home entertainment by television and radio.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why they are lying on the street? They have got house, then why they are...

Rāmeśvara: Big car...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why, in the Bowery Street, they are lying on the street in stool and urine? Why?

Rāmeśvara: Formerly they were doing that, but now again they are just living nicely.

Prabhupāda: Living nicely on the street. They have no nice place even. What is that? Lions? Go pay one dollar and live there?

Jagadīśa: YMCA.

Prabhupāda: Something like that. They have no place to live. At night... Whole day they lie down on the street and beg and drink, and at night they pay one dollar and live.

Rāmeśvara: That's a very small minority of the people.

Prabhupāda: Well, there is? Why? You are so rich country, why? Why it is happening? Not small minority.

Rāmeśvara: And we have our vacations. We can travel anywhere in the world and visit, sightsee.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot say that everyone is very rich. That is not... We admit your contribution, but... The other day I was saying that aeroplane is contribution, but it is not safe. So long it is flying, it is all right, but any moment... Similarly, this civilization will be contribution like that. It is not safe. Because this life, you are enjoying very good house, very good society, but next life, if you are going to be a tree by nature's law, then what is the value of your this life?

Rāmeśvara: "But I believe in God. I go to church every Sunday, and I confess."

Prabhupāda: But you go to church, but you don't do anything what God says.

Rāmeśvara: "I am taught that God gave us all of these fruits to enjoy."

Prabhupāda: Not to follow His advice. You are so great devotee that you simply enjoy God's gifts, but what He says, you don't follow. You are such a great devotee. "I enjoy my father's property, but I don't care for his advice." (aside:) Ask your mother to learn how to make kachoris from Kulādri. Is that all right? (train slowing) Bulahanipur.(?) Somebody wrote me a letter from this place, Bulahanipur.

Rāmeśvara: (to child) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa bol!

Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So give him something. You have got fruit? Fruit? Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Ek minute. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bolo Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: They'll remember that Kṛṣṇa fed them. I think we should clean up.

Hari-śauri: There should be a sweeper somewhere.

Prabhupāda: No, we do our own business. Why do you wait for sweeper?

Hari-śauri: Yeah, we need a broom.

Prabhupāda: You take one paper, that black one there.

Jagadīśa: Do you want to take rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: (to child) Finished? It's too hot? He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot. He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So is there any remaining in...?

Hari-śauri: Puffed rice is finished. But he can't eat the samosa.

Prabhupāda: So you can eat. He can take this thing. Hand. Keep that paper and apply it in service. (sweeping noise) Yes. (sounds of door opening, closing, train starts again) The bathroom is free?

Hari-śauri: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is real religion. Religion cannot be "your religion" and "our religion."

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They were saying in essence that only the Jew or the Christian, he can represent God. Hare Kṛṣṇa, he does not represent God.

Prabhupāda: Now let us talk why he cannot or why you are the only. First of all you have to ascertain what is religion. Then it will be decided who has got the stock. Let the Christian or the Jews answer this question: What is religion?

Rāmeśvara: They cannot answer.

Prabhupāda: Then you have no religion.

Rāmeśvara: They do not know the answer. They'll speculate.

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is no religion.

Rāmeśvara: The Christian will say, "The Jew has no answer." And the Christian, he will say, "Religion means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior."

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: "Because he came to earth as the son of God. He died for your sins."

Prabhupāda: Therefore religion means what is given by God, either directly or through His son or through His servant. That is religion. So if you do not know who is God and what He has given, then where is your religion? Religion means the law given by God. So you should know who is God and what law He has given. Then you have religion. You say you do not know what is God.

Rāmeśvara: This man was saying that in the Bible there is a description of God speaking to Moses and Abraham, and He identified Himself as jehovah, not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is the main point, that what God said.

Rāmeśvara: What God said? He told Abraham to go to Israel and to worship only Him. He said, "There shall be no other Gods. Just Me." And then He told Moses the Ten Commandments.

Prabhupāda: So God said that... God must say. So you say God: jehovah; and we say God: Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong?

Rāmeśvara: "The wrong is that Kṛṣṇa was a man who lived on earth five hundred thousand years ago and..."

Prabhupāda: So jehovah was God.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that means He was God, you are man, how you are hearing from Him?

Rāmeśvara: Because it's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: It's in the Bible. Then, that whatever is the... We can say the same way, "It is in the Bhagavad Gītā." What is the wrong there?

Rāmeśvara: What can be said?

Prabhupāda: "This is the Bible," and "This is the Bhagavad-gītā."

Rāmeśvara: "But history documents that Kṛṣṇa came to earth as a man."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So do you mean to say God cannot come as man? And jehovah came as God?

Rāmeśvara: "But in the Bible God revealed a certain aspect of Himself, and the personality of Kṛṣṇa seems to be very different from this."

Prabhupāda: In which way different?

Rāmeśvara: "Because He had all these affairs with the gopīs. He was very different."

Prabhupāda: God will be just like...

Rāmeśvara: "And He was a king with sixteen thousand wives. That seems to be very different from the God that is described in the Bible."

Prabhupāda: So if God... What is described in the Bible, God symptom, that he has no power to enjoy sixteen thousand wives? He's limited?

Rāmeśvara: No. He's unlimited.

Prabhupāda: Then, sixteen thousand, sixteen millions He can have. Why, if He's unlimited? What is wrong there? If He's unlimited, why sixteen thousand? If He marries sixteen million, sixteen billion, still, it is not sufficient. Otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. Why you restrict God to sixteen or one? God is under your restriction, and He's still unlimited? That means you do not know what is God. You do not know what is God. You are mistaken.

Rāmeśvara: But very often they will say, "It is not a question of religion that we are concerned with. It is a question of brainwashing and mind control. Your chanting so many hours a day, it's hypnotizing."

Prabhupāda: So, what is to you? That is my business. Why do you bother yourself?

Rāmeśvara: "But you are imposing it on so many young people."

Prabhupāda: We must impose. You impose they will not chant. That is your business. We must impose. That is my business. If you have power, you stop them.

Rāmeśvara: "But you're not giving them a chance to think when they chant so many hours."

Prabhupāda: Why shall I give you chance? You are thieves. You are coming to kidnap. Why shall I give you chance? You say to them, as we are saying, that "You chant." They are chanting. You make brainwash. You ask them, "Don't chant." That is your business. But that you cannot do.

Rāmeśvara: "But by this chanting, they develop a kind of blind faith, and they stop thinking."

Prabhupāda: So, what is to you and to your father? Let them do that. Everyone has got freedom.

Rāmeśvara: But they say that that takes away freedom, because it takes away freedom to think.

Prabhupāda: So that is a controversy, that you want to take his freedom and still, you are accusing that, that way.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's actually the fact. The want to take their freedom, but they are accusing us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you are sane man, let us sit down. First of all ascertain what is religion. Then we shall see whether your religion is genuine or my religion is genuine. First of all ascertain. Let there be an assembly, that "What is religion?" "We say that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute this." Nobody can manufacture religion. "God is one, and whatever He has given, law, that is religion. Now you refute it?" Give them this challenge.

Rāmeśvara: "Well we may accept that the Kṛṣṇa movement is a religion, but..."

Prabhupāda: Apart from name--name is not very important. In your country you say water. I say jala, pānīya. Does it mean that because I say pānīya, it will be different thing? In different countries, in different societies, things are... We say am, you say mango. Does it mean the thing, substance, is different?

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why do the rascals say like that? Because we say God, Kṛṣṇa, therefore He's not. Why is... This is nonsense. I can say in my language, you can say in yours, but God is one. That you have to accept.

Rāmeśvara: One of their standard arguments is...

Prabhupāda: Now, this is... First of all defeat that, that "Why do you stress on name? In different countries, in different societies, the same thing may be called by different names."

Rāmeśvara: Well, they're saying that the substance is different. Kṛṣṇa is one...

Prabhupāda: The substance is different; then God... There is no God. Either Kṛṣṇa is not God, jehovah is not God. Just like gold...

Rāmeśvara: They say that because Kṛṣṇa displayed His activities when He was here...

Prabhupāda: Yes. God will play. That is God. God is not dead. Your God is dead. Our God is alive. That is the difference. God must be alive. Why God should be dead? (break) So you are under God's control. Then you say whether jehovah is God or Kṛṣṇa is God. First of all you must know. You must let us know what do you mean by God. If you describe, "I mean God... by the word God, I mean this," then see whether it is applicable to jehovah or to Kṛṣṇa. It is not the name. It is the person and the symptom. Just like water is liquid. So you say water, I say jal. But the liquidity of water is the same. So first of all you know what is the nature of God. Then you may say "jehovah," I may say "Kṛṣṇa," another may say something else. It doesn't matter. Water is water. That is liquid. That's all. So first of all ascertain what is the symptom of God. Can we challenge them that "What is the symptom? How do you know that here is God?" Just like we understand here is water.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, but their idea is all nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Therefore prove that "You are rascal, nonsense. You do not know what is God."

Rāmeśvara: They think that God has nothing to do. He does everything by His thinking. Just like in the Bible it says...

Prabhupāda: That why do you say nothing to do, rascal? That is doing. He is doing by thinking; that means...

Rāmeśvara: Yes. It is said in the Bible He created the world just by His thoughts.

Prabhupāda: That means--that's all right--that God is so powerful that He can do by His thinking. We also admit. But that does not mean God is not doing. But He is doing in a finer way. You rascal, you do in a grosser way. God does in a finer way. But that does not mean God is inactive.

Rāmeśvara: And he was criticizing our description of God coming as a boar...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God.

Rāmeśvara: ...and God coming as a tortoise...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God.

Rāmeśvara: ...and a fish, half man, half lion.

Prabhupāda: That means God.

Rāmeśvara: He was criticizing that this is mythology.

Prabhupāda: So that means you do not know what is God. God can come as He likes. That is God. But you rascal, you do not know what is God; therefore you are restricting, "He cannot come in this way." That is your restriction. Why God should be restricted? (knock) Yes?

Rāmeśvara: Come in.

Indian man: Gurudev, this carriage foreman is having some message from Gupta Saheb.

Indian man (2): Namaskāra.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Namaskāra. (break) So rascal... (break) God is unlimited, and you are a teeny man. Why you want to limit God by your dictation?

Rāmeśvara: He says yes, it's possible...

Prabhupāda: How it is possible?

Rāmeśvara: Because God is unlimited, these things are possible, but...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that He cannot come as fish, He cannot...?

Rāmeśvara: Because if He wanted us to believe in these things He would have told us on Mount Sinai, and He would have told us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I am the only way..."

Prabhupāda: But that I have already answered, that...

Rāmeśvara: Jesus Christ says, "I am the only way."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But Jesus Christ did not say to you because you are rascal. You cannot follow even his one instruction. That is the answer. It is not the foolishness of Jesus Christ. Because you are so rascal, you cannot understand it. Therefore he avoided you rascals. Because whatever he has said, you cannot follow. So what you will understand? Therefore he stopped speaking.

Jagadīśa: They killed him after three years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are so rascal that his personal instruction is...

Rāmeśvara: Three years?

Jagadīśa: Three years' preaching and they killed him.

Prabhupāda: Why he will waste his time to rascals like you? And I understand that Jesus Christ said that "I have to say many thing, but I did not say..." like that.

Rāmeśvara: He said, "I have more to tell that ye cannot bear."

Prabhupāda: You cannot?

Rāmeśvara: Bear.

Prabhupāda: Means "you cannot understand."

Rāmeśvara: Yes. He also said...

Jagadīśa: Or "you cannot accept. You cannot bear."

Rāmeśvara: He also said, "Do not cast your pearls before swine." I think he was talking about them also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine; so therefore he did not say." You quote this: "But you are swine; therefore he did not say."

Rāmeśvara: New interpretation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine." Yes, they are swine. Svarka-vaca.(?) In India they say. Tell them like that, "You are swine. You cannot understand things. Therefore he did not say." That's a fact. If you are not swine, then God said, "Thou shall not kill," you killed him, so what you'll understand about God? You did not allow him to live. You are such a great swine. And his disciple...

Jagadīśa: Judas

Prabhupāda: Huh? Cheated him. He was such swine. He was such big swine.

Rāmeśvara: And right after he was killed, anyone who followed him, they made the lions eat them. It's common knowledge that the early Christians were dragged into a big arena, and the lions were let out of their cages and devoured them. And the people were cheering. The public was invited to the event, and they were cheering.

Prabhupāda: That Rome.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Your civilization is such.

Hari-śauri: Mr. Gupta just sent a big basketfull of oranges from Nagpur.

Jagadīśa: This is a tarshi? Are they named tarshi?

Hari-śauri: I'm not sure.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (break) Therefore it is mentioned.

Rāmeśvara: Now, one of their arguments is... Their main thing is to try to pretend that it is not a question of religion.

Prabhupāda: So, one thing is that if you have proved a swine, what is the value of your arguments? You have proved that you are a swine. So better stop arguing. What I say, you accept. That is good for you. Because you are descendants of swine, and actually you are doing that.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, on one television show they directly accused Your Divine Grace. They said that you have got us going out every day collecting money, and we have to send all this money to India, to Māyāpura, to build one temple so that you will become famous. And ultimately we will worship you as God.

Prabhupāda: Well, already famous. What is that famous?

Rāmeśvara: That was their argument.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. A famous man must be famous. He cannot be famous, famous. What you have done that you'll be famous? You are swine. You cannot be famous.

Rāmeśvara: They are subscribing to our newsletter. They somehow or other get our newsletter, and they read about our Māyāpura city costing so many lakhs and crores. So they became envious. That's all.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. We are selling books. That is my book. I can spend in such a way.

Rāmeśvara: It was just envy.

Prabhupāda: Envy is envy. But it is my book. I am selling. So I can take the price anywhere. That is my right. You have nothing to say. You stop your men to purchase, that's all. Otherwise I'll sell anywhere and I shall spend anywhere. I have got the right.

Rāmeśvara: Normally they do not attack you.

Jagadīśa: We are voluntarily doing all this.

Rāmeśvara: We're voluntarily. But one of their main arguments is that before someone joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has great affection for his father, his mother, his brothers, his relatives. And after he joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has nothing to do with them anymore, and sometimes he even calls them demon.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact.

Rāmeśvara: So they say this is the proof that we have brainwashed them. Because it is natural to have affection for your family.

Prabhupāda: Before that, he was accepting a false father. And now they understood that "He is not my father. He's my enemy." Therefore he's going... According to Bhāgavata it is said, "One should not become father if he cannot save his son from the imminent danger of birth, death, old age and disease." So the so-called father, they are not father. So after enter into Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one understands that "He's my false father." So if he gives up the relationship, that means he's successful.

Rāmeśvara: So, then they will say, "We do not want this movement in our country because it is breaking up the families."

Prabhupāda: You do not want? Who cares for you? We shall go on with our movement. Who cares for you?

Rāmeśvara: "You are ruining family life."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: We are simply ruining our families.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are ruining the dog's family, cat's family. That's all right. We are entering into Kṛṣṇa's family. That is our improvement. What is the use of keeping with the dog's family, cat's family? The dog has also family. So to remain in the dog's family, it is very prestigious position? We have now constructed our own family, Kṛṣṇa family. We are entering there. What is the use of remaining in the dog's family, cat's family?

Hari-śauri: "But if you're actually followers of God, then why are you breaking up the families? Shouldn't you have love for everyone?"

Rāmeśvara: Because they say that the Ten Commandments says... One of the Ten Commandments, the fourth one, says "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father."

Prabhupāda: Yes, we honor.

Rāmeśvara: But that means by birth, the mother and father also. That's what it refers to.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So they say, "By your teaching they are spitting on their mothers and fathers."

Prabhupāda: No, not spitting. Who is spitting? Everyone... Just like you have got a father and mother. You are not spitting. Whenever father, mother, comes, he honors. That is your version, but his version is different. He loves his father and mother. He teaches him Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: My mother testified to that, that when I was at home I was impossible to live with, and when they saw me afterwards, I was very nice.

Prabhupāda: Many. The Hayagrīva's father, mother.

Rāmeśvara: My parents think like that too.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: I could have no relation with them before, but now that I am a devotee, I actually want to help them, so the relationship...

Prabhupāda: And there are so many fathers, mothers; they very much appreciate. And the... Our... None of our disciple is disrespectful to father and mother. Why? I never said that "You become disrespectful to your father and mother."

Hari-śauri: The only time there's any argument is if...

Prabhupāda: But if the father is demon...

Rāmeśvara: The devotees sometimes are disrespectful out of immaturity.

Prabhupāda: That is a individual fact. But...

Rāmeśvara: But they cannot condemn the movement because of that.

Prabhupāda: We never said that "You be..." I never said. And when Brahmānanda was initiated, his mother was standing. I asked Brahmānanda, "Take the dust of your mother's feet first. Then you offer me obeisances." Ask Brahmānanda. So he first of all offered his obeisances to his mother. I told him like that, "You have got good mother." I told him like that, "Otherwise how she has got a son like you?" I always say like that. I never said, "Disrespect." But in particular case, if the father and mother is demon, he must give up their... It is not our business to...

Rāmeśvara: The whole controversy centers around this point of breaking up the family.

Prabhupāda: We never said. Breaking up the family... So many ways they are breaking up, the hippies are also breaking.

Jagadīśa: The fathers and mothers are also breaking. Divorce.

Prabhupāda: Father and mother, yes. Why they divorce?

Hari-śauri: Seven out of ten marriages.

Prabhupāda: Within two weeks, three divorce.

Rāmeśvara: That's a very good point.

Hari-śauri: They have no family unit to speak of, anyway.

Prabhupāda: It is surprising. If one gentleman lives for life as husband and wife, it is a very surprising thing in your country that they have lived so long as husband and wife.

Hari-śauri: Yes, they become very glorified.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: They put them in the paper.

Prabhupāda: And so credible. So this is your nation, that if one gentleman and lady remain as husband-wife for long time, it is a wonderful thing. So first of all decide what do you mean by religion; what is the definition of religion. Our definition of religion is this, that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute it. That is everywhere. Just like any state, you... The law given by government is law. That is universal truth. You cannot manufacture law at your home. What is given by your state, that is law. Similarly, religion means what is given by God, that is religion.

Rāmeśvara: So they say we are making up our own religion because...

Prabhupāda: You cannot make own religion. Then it is not religion.

Rāmeśvara: That is what they accuse us of. They say that we teach our devotees that you can lie for Kṛṣṇa, you can steal for Kṛṣṇa, you can even kill for Kṛṣṇa. So this is immoral.

Prabhupāda: But do you say like that?

Rāmeśvara: No, they are distorting. But that is their ar... And just like they use your Back to Godhead article about Arjuna on the battlefield, that sometimes we may even have to kill our relatives for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So, suppose if God said that "You kill," what you will do?

Rāmeśvara: Our argument is just that, that in the Bible, God told Abraham, "You must kill your son Isaac." This is a famous story in the Bible. So Abraham took his son and was ready to chop off his head. And God felt sorry and He stopped him. But that story is there in the Bible, that God told Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was ready to do it. It does not mean that the Jewish religion is based on killing your son.

Jagadīśa: It was a test of his faith.

Rāmeśvara: It was a test of his faith. The same story of Arjuna, he had to kill for Kṛṣṇa. It's actually a good argument when they say that.

Prabhupāda: You have got sugar candy?

Hari-śauri: I don't think she packed any. Oh, sugar? She must have packed it. I'll have to find Pālikā, 'cause she has everything.

Rāmeśvara: They think that if our devotees are willing to do whatever you say, it must mean that they are brainwashed. They have given up their independence, so therefore they are brainwashed. If they are willing to follow anyone blindly, like a slave...

Prabhupāda: That is your instruction also. jehovah says that you shall not worship any other God. So, Jesus Christ says also that you shall not worship. So that is the way of preaching. That is required.

Jagadīśa: That is also required in the military.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That also has been described by Professor Stillson? "Charismastic"? What is...?

Jagadīśa: Charismatic.

Prabhupāda: Charismatic spiritual master.

Hari-śauri: I think whatever was there was either packed in the basket or the cooker, and there was no sugar. So, I'll have to... If you want, I can have one of these men go and find some.

Prabhupāda: Sugar? Where you'll find?

Rāmeśvara: But the... Pradyumna has some sweet mango.

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: What is that?

Jagadīśa: Mango candy.

Prabhupāda: Mango candy? (Hari-śauri opens door and asks in another compartment)

Hari-śauri: Pradyumna, have you got some mango candy?

Jagadīśa: There are grapes also.

Prabhupāda: Grape candy?

Jagadīśa: No. Fruit.

Rāmeśvara: So, actually, their arguments are not very... So therefore it is simply a plan of Kṛṣṇa to help give us some prominence, make us more well known.

Jagadīśa: Give us a chance to preach.

Rāmeśvara: Because their arguments have no substance.

Prabhupāda: Defeat them. "God cannot came as fish." "Why? What kind of God He is? He likes, He can do. That is God."

Jagadīśa: When I heard the tape of this priest, this minister, and he was trying to cut down our religion, our movement, he was saying that "You believe that God came as a fish, as a tortoise, as a half lion, half man," it reminded me that whenever in the scriptures demons try to blaspheme--like Hiraṇyakṣa--tries to blaspheme against Lord Viṣṇu, Viśvanātha Cakravartī turns it around and makes it seem as if he's actually glorifying Him. You can't blaspheme Kṛṣṇa because whatever you say about Him is simply another glorification. They try to criticize, "Your God had sixteen thousand wives." Actually that's something wonderful. They just take it in the wrong way.

Hari-śauri: (in background) Is Pālikā in there? Listen, Prabhupāda wants some... Have you got any of that mango candy? Can you cut some fruit for Prabhupāda?

Jagadīśa: They're helping us to spread Kṛṣṇa's glories.

Rāmeśvara: Now, they say... Just like in Los Angeles we have sued the family for two million dollars, two and a half million dollars, because they kidnapped their girl. So they say that the girl, she would not have done this, but because we told her to do it, therefore she did it. Therefore there is control. We are controlling her.

Prabhupāda: We must because you checked her freedom.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why did you kidnap? Therefore we must teach him some lesson.

Jagadīśa: Everyone acts in such a way to please his friends, anyway.

Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that this girl who was kidnapped, she still likes her family, but now we have told her, "You must sue them." So therefore she is doing it. So therefore she is not free. She is... We are controlling her.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you want to control her. We are controlling, but you want to control her. So if you can control, why shall I not control? Why you are poking your nose? We shall cut your nose. (laughter)

Jagadīśa: That's what we're going to do too. (Hari-śauri returns with candy)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Rāmeśvara: I think we've used up all their arguments. They say...

Prabhupāda: First of all, our challenge is "What is your definition of God?"

Rāmeśvara: They will answer, "Let us first discuss the definition of brainwashing. Do not talk of God. We are not trying to talk of God. We want to talk about brainwashing."

Prabhupāda: So first of all you define.

Rāmeśvara: Brainwashing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They say that brainwashing means that when you deprive a person of sleep, of food, you isolate him from the rest of the world, you have him chant something over and over again many times, in this way you can get control of his mind, and then whatever you want, he will do, just like a robot.

Prabhupāda: You first of all said that we are depriving with food. Where is this?

Rāmeśvara: This is their argument...

Prabhupāda: This is their argument...

Rāmeśvara: ...that we only let them eat twice a day, and even then, not only is there no meat, but there is very little protein.

Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If he likes to eat that kind of food, you have no right to enforce upon him. Then you are going to enforce upon him. There are different persons; they like different types of food. And food must be according to his own taste. Aguru ohikhanna.(?)

Rāmeśvara: Only twice a day.

Prabhupāda: But if he likes twice a day, why you give thrice? That is his choice.

Rāmeśvara: And sleeping only four, five hours.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Very little.

Prabhupāda: Because it is waste of time.

Rāmeśvara: This makes his mind very weak.

Prabhupāda: You rascal, you have nothing to do. You sleep. Napoleon used to sleep for one hour, two hour. He was such a busy man. So they are so busy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have no time to sleep. Every great man does not sleep very much. The lazy men... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Acchā. Sleeping is simply waste of time. So this is... If he does not sleep more, it is a sign of greatness.

Rāmeśvara: But they have got these crazy fools in the name of psychologists. And these psychologists...

Prabhupāda: We have got our psychologists.

Rāmeśvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food, torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. (laughter) We have made the ground.

Rāmeśvara: That's what they want! They want us...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say.

Rāmeśvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him.

Jagadīśa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep.

Prabhupāda: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief?

Rāmeśvara: For his own good.

Prabhupāda: Then you are thief. Then thief can also say like that, "For my good I can steal."

Rāmeśvara: "It is the lesser of evils."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But God does not allow.

Hari-śauri: When a person first comes to us he's coming voluntarily and he's not... At that stage he's not deprived of sleep, he's not deprived of eating. But still, he's coming, voluntarily. But when they take him away they have to take him by force.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: To change him.

Rāmeśvara: They say to break him of the spell. We have got a spell on him.

Prabhupāda: But why he again comes back? You could not break.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they cannot break, because we have planted our...

Prabhupāda: In most cases they come back.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. I would say four out of five come back.

Jagadīśa: We have given him knowledge.

Prabhupāda: It is not a prison house.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "You cannot deprogram a Christian because Christianity is real. Therefore this is the proof that Hare Kṛṣṇa is false."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: That there is no record of any Christian...

Hari-śauri: We were all Christians, and we changed.

Jagadīśa: There's a record of a Christian deprogrammed, Peter himself. Christ prophesied that "Before the cock crows you'll deny me three times," and he did. He was deprogrammed just by his association.

Rāmeśvara: That was Peter?

Jagadīśa: Yes. (train going again)

Hari-śauri: His own... One of his twelve apostles put him on the cross, Judas Iscariat. He was one of the original twelve. He betrayed Jesus for some money and put him on the cross, killed him. He killed him.

Prabhupāda: That's right. This is the history of your religion. You kill Jesus Christ; you deprive him.

Hari-śauri: There's still that point that when a person comes, he's coming voluntarily. We have no chance to deprive him of sleep or food, because he's living outside. He's not living inside.

Rāmeśvara: They say that when a man comes to join us, immediately we take away all his money and all his possessions, so in this way we are depriving him of his property.

Prabhupāda: That is individual surrender. We have not rendered that way. He surrendered individually.

Hari-śauri: When Christ preached, he told them to "Give up your work; give up your family; give up everything. Don't try to earn a livelihood. Don't worry about where your food will come from. Don't worry where your cloth will come from." He said that in his instructions to his disciples. I think it's in the Acts according to St. Matthew.

Jagadīśa: His disciples simply...

Hari-śauri: He gave the example that "The birds, they do not try to make a living, but God is feeding them. So do you not think God will help feed if you go out and do His work?" That is what he said to them. (indistinct) And they say they are Christians, but actually the real Christianity is what we are practicing.

Rāmeśvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God."

Prabhupāda: Where is that?

Rāmeśvara: That's right in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: (break) Because there are many fanatics. Hm?

Hari-śauri: Through America it's full of persecutors.(?) These people are very, very hateful towards our men. Europe is all right. Europe...

Prabhupāda: Europe? Germany...

Hari-śauri: Germany is bad.(?)

Jagadīśa: North America would be... South America?

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer, very peaceful.

Hari-śauri: New Vrindaban you could go when the palace is done.

(long conversation at end of tape about deprogramming and psychology--Rāmeśvara talks most of the time--can be transcribed if the tape is slowed down and the train noise is reduced.) (end)

 

Room Conversation                                   January 13, 1977, Allahabad                                                        476240

Prabhupāda: These are weapons. That was the only endeavor, how legally he could occupy the bricks and stones of Gauòīya Math. That's all. He had no other ambition. How to push on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, how to push on Guru Mahārāja's... He had no such. It was simply show. But real purpose was how to occupy, how to take the whole property. Business.

Rāmeśvara: And none of the other Godbrothers had strong preaching spirits.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They also, when they saw that "This man is legally taking everything. Gauòīya sannyāsīs, we cannot go home. We must have some shelter." No spirit of pushing on.

Rāmeśvara: Even by your example they have not learned anything.

Prabhupāda: No, my... Of course, I did not attempt in the beginning. I started my activities when I was seventy years old. So they thought, "This man is gṛhastha. He is embarassed with family life. What he'll do?" (laughs) That was their impression. But I never neglected. Guru Mahārāja told me. I was simply thinking, "How to do it? How to do it?" I thought, "Let me become a rich businessman. The money will be required." That was my thought. But Guru Mahārāja was asking me, "You give up this. I'll give you money." That I could not understand. I was planning. My plan was not wrong. But I was thinking "The money required, so let me earn some money. Then I shall begin." And Guru Mahārāja said, "You give up this money-earning endeavor. You come completely. I'll give you money." I can understand now. But my desire was there. Therefore he guided me. So I was... In 1936 or '35 in Bombay, after installation of Deity, so--I was gṛhastha--I helped them to collect some money. All my Godbrothers applauded and recommended to Guru Mahārāja that "Abhay Babu is so influential. Why he lives outside the temple? He can become the temple commander and manage this Bombay temple. Why he is living outside?" Mean "Guru Mahārāja may ask him." So I was... From this Allahabad I was going to Bombay. I had one small office there. So after hearing, he said, "It is better that he is living little away from your Matha. And when time will rise, he'll do everything. He hasn't got to be advised." I could not understand why he said like that. That means he was so kind that he expected that I shall do something. That was my asset, his blessing. And I was thinking that "His, this mission must be done very nicely." Although I was not capable to do anything, I was thinking like that. So desire was there and maybe blessing was there. Yes. There was no question of qualification.

Rāmeśvara: But still, after ten years the Gauòīya Math still has not learned.

Prabhupāda: Hm? They cannot. They... Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Śrīdhara Mahārāja and others. But this man was envious, (name withheld) because... He advertised that he is the only favorite student of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. (laughs) But spiritually he was empty. Materially he was capable, how to manage things. But spiritually he was zero. That Prabhupāda also knew and everyone knows. He had no spiritual understanding. Materially he helped Guru Mahārāja how to organize. Therefore he liked him, that "This man is expert manager."

Rāmeśvara: We have devotees like that. We also have devotees who spiritually have trouble coming to the programs and even chanting, but still, they like to give them service, so we engage them anyway.

Prabhupāda: That is also qualification. That is also qualification. Some way or other, if there is some service, it goes to the credit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya. The foolish person may not know that "I am imperceptibly advancing even during my, this material life," but Kṛṣṇa takes. Just like Pūtanā. She gave service by allowing her breast to be sucked by Kṛṣṇa. Although her intention was to kill, but Kṛṣṇa took her as mother: "She has given Me service." This is Kṛṣṇa. "This rascal does not know that nobody can kill Me, but on some plea or other, she has given her breast open to be sucked by Me, and I have done it. Therefore she is My mother. She must get the promotion like mother Yaśodā." This is Kṛṣṇa. He is very anxious to deliver us. So any little service done, He accepts. "All right, come on. You are accepted." This is Kṛṣṇa. Little service. "Let him do something." So kind. He comes for serving you.(?) He speaks, "Rascal, you do this. Surrender to Me and do something. You'll be relived from this janma-mṛtyu vyādhi." "No." Hog, dogs, they are--what is called--obstinate. The hog, living in dirty place, eating stool, and if you try to deliver from this, he'll not: "No. No. I am living here happily. Why you are disturbing me?" This is the... "Why you are trying to wash my brain? This is very good life." This is our...

                                                                                                                                                                        476255

Prabhupāda: So you can do business. Why don't you start this toothpaste? It is very effective. I am using personally. Toothpaste is a very common thing. If you introduce, it is used by cent percent persons. Simply they should like it.

Rāmeśvara: The taste is all right?

Prabhupāda: Yes, taste can be...

Rāmeśvara: Adjusted.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: In America everything is based on the tongue.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Taste can be very nice, sweetened. There is salt, and you can add honey also. Naturally salty and sweet plus some ingredients like peppermint, wintergreen, camphor, it will make tasty. These ingredients are very nice. We can... Some ordinary medicament. That skin disease ointment, some cough mixture. I have got experience in all these things. If you want to introduce this kind of business, tidbit...(?) The gṛhasthas can do the business.

Rāmeśvara: Gṛhasthas. I also want to start this record...

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect everyone to be brahminical qualification. We are neither brāhmaṇa nor... We do not belong to any sect, but Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, we can do anything. That, because we are doing some business, we are not vaiśyas. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was agriculturist. So that does not mean he was a (sic) Vaiṣṇava. But professionally, externally, he looked like a vaiśya.

                                                                                                                                                                        476375

Prabhupāda: So we can take money for food. That is also our program.

Rāmeśvara: Well, I'm going to try to develop this record business. I think we can make a million dollars a year, profit.

Prabhupāda: And send it for our farms, and we invite, "Come here. Take prasādam."

Rāmeśvara: Oh, the farm communities. Oh, not just food relief, but also developing the farm projects.

Hari-śauri: That's food relief.

Prabhupāda: Now, my project is that we shall actually give them food, shelter and...

Rāmeśvara: Cottages, little cottages.

Prabhupāda: And cloth, whatever primary necessities and simple living, and let them chant.

Rāmeśvara: They chant and also work the fields.

Prabhupāda: So they, in the beginning, if they are not working... They'll work. We shall supply food, everything. And that... That is well beginning. In Hyderabad they are coming daily, two hundred people. And I kept with them fifty thousand rupees and told... But as soon I came, they have stopped, this, our (name withheld). I do not know what is the reason. He said, "There is no money." I gave them fifty thousand rupees. He said, "There is no money." He's not good manager at all. It has been proved. He's not a good manager. Everywhere failure.

Rāmeśvara: He's very good at kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Hm, that's right. He is sincere devotee and he's... But as soon as you give something to manage, he'll make a mess. (laughs) I have told him that "I shall pay you. You continue this prasāda distribution, kīrtana program." They are coming, up to two hundred. And now he has finished it.

Rāmeśvara: Two hundred people were coming every day.

Prabhupāda: Every day. And that is little, simple prasāda. Little kittri would satisfy them. They're village people.

Rāmeśvara: So they have to regular source of income.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And so long there is no income, I shall supply food or money.

Rāmeśvara: This year I think I can spend some time developing this record. I'm sure we can make money.

Prabhupāda: Yes, make money.

Rāmeśvara: With very little manpower.

Prabhupāda: And send... Send grains. Send grains, food grains, and we shall utilize it in all our temples and farm projects in the beginning. Then they'll... Naturally they'll produce. As soon as they become little interested in our scheme, they'll give service.

Rāmeśvara: And this will also be a good angle for getting the record tax exempt. The books are already tax exempt, but not the record. So if the money from the record is going to be used for feeding people...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...automatically they'll give us tax exemption.

Prabhupāda: Actually India is poor. When we give food, how voraciously they eat. They cannot eat. They have no resources to eat nicely at home. That's a fact. Half-fed. At least half-fed. In the villages they are not fully fed. They have no sufficient clothing, no food, that's all. The rascal politicians, realizing heavy tax, and that is divided amongst them. It is not going to the poor. They are imitating Western way of life. They have got huge expenditure. So whatever money is coming, they are spending for their luxury, and poor men... The Gandhi's movement, boycott British goods, but they took it: "Boycott British goods and take our goods." So the consumer goods were the same. Gandhi helped to stop the British capitalist in favor of the Indian capitalist. The consumer remained in the same position, rather, worse. The foreigners, they are thinking that "These people are poor. They cannot pay more to me." And these rascals, Indian capitalists, in the name of nationalism, Birlas and others, they exploit. And they give contribution to Gandhi, Gandhi's staff, Jawaharlal Nehru's staff. And they took the opportunity that "I shall pay this rascal one lakh, and I shall utilize the ten lakhs." That's it. So the object of exploitation remained the same. Rather, by artificial inflation of money market put common men in plight, because the other day I was calculating... The things have gone high priced, thirty times, but the income has not increased thirty times. The other day I was calculating. My father's income was, utmost, three hundred rupees. So we had no scarcity. In our standard of life there was no scar... What standard of...? That standard of life is still... Now that three hundred rupees is... He calculated.

Hari-śauri: Price of gold, it was based on.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: We worked out the price of gold.

Prabhupāda: Yes, gold standard. Gold standard... At that time gold was selling... My mother was purchasing gold for ornament at twenty rupees per tola. Now the gold in India is six hundred rupees.

Rāmeśvara: Thirty times.

Prabhupāda: Thirty times.

Rāmeśvara: So that three hundred rupees is like nine thousand.

Prabhupāda: Nine thousand. And who has got nine thousand rupees' income?

Rāmeśvara: Per month?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That three hundred rupees is equal to nine thousand rupees now. Now, a middle class man, who has got nine thousand rupees' income? Maybe one thousand, two thousand... (break) ...same thing, thirty times. The same ghee is selling not less than twenty-five, up to thirty. Thirty times. Take anything, rice, dahl, wheat, two annas per seer. And now they charge two rupees, three rupees per kilo. So from two annas to two rupees, sixteen times more.

Rāmeśvara: America also...

Prabhupāda: No, sixteen, thirty-two times.

Rāmeśvara: Thirty-two times.

Prabhupāda: You take average, thirty times more. Cloth, you could purchase very nice cloth, one rupees six annas. Now that is thirty rupees. So in this way proportionately, average thirty times, everything. Everything has increased thirty times. So I am speaking when we were child, say eight years--seven years, eight years old--or up to ten years. So I am now eighty-one. Seventy years ago and now, the difference is thirty times. We were purchasing milk, two annas per seer, and now it is three rupees per kilo. That is also, we do not know whether it is milk or some white water.

Hari-śauri: In most cases it's white water.

Prabhupāda: And we were purchasing real milk (indistinct). So nice.

Rāmeśvara: So they may say this philosophy, that's like the communism, capitalism, Russia, America. The business of exploiting the masses is the same, they'll say. Different names, different dress, but the main business is going on.

Prabhupāda: Expert. Nobody is thinking (indistinct) "Everyone will be happy." That we are thinking because we are devotees. Otherwise what is the use of my going to America? So America is not in need of me, but I found there is need of me. So they are thinking, "This man has come to wash our brains." And I think that "Yes, we are going to do work (indistinct) they will be happy."

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could I ask one more question about the records?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Rāmeśvara: Suppose we make a profit. Someone may enquire, "Isn't it better to use the money to distribute more books rather than giving it to the food program."

Prabhupāda: No, no, books department, that is already sufficient income.

Rāmeśvara: I would personally like to use it for the food program.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Book we are getting.

Rāmeśvara: So that's the answer then.

Prabhupāda: And we are not taking any profit. Neither the seller, neither the author is taking any profit. So there is enough money. You haven't got to pay either to the seller or to the writer, then why not spend the whole income? No profit. So we save income tax. And whatever little excess is there, (indistinct), advertise or pay some gṛhasthas some pocket expenses. In this way make it meet. No profit. By our arrangement there is no question of profit but even there is profit, we should pay the gṛhasthas some expenditure. He has... Family man there is... In this way, make always no profit. I was doing from the very beginning (indistinct), then I began to sell books. I was working, I was selling, I was collecting, I was spending, going to the printer, everything. Forcing (indistinct) I was publishing. Work nicely. If I don't force (indistinct), they'll not give me the concession rate, still I am doing. So I think this book department (indistinct) all right, you don't require to invest. But whatever income you'll get from this record business, spend it for giving prasādam. So we have got so many centers, they will feed.

Rāmeśvara: But they... That way a whole new...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I started Māyāpura this prasāda distribution. And it is coming to be successful. People are, politicians are appreciating that here is Hindu-Muslim unity.

Rāmeśvara: All the devotees will appreciate this then. That the records now, the money is going to be used for food relief.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we can increase. The same thing (indistinct) in the farm, in the village, "Come on, any number, I shall feed you. Come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and take prasādam." And we shall increase the quality of the prasādam. They will be very much pleased to come and chant. That I want. I am interested in these rascals (indistinct). Fighting amongst them. What can we do? You can go for some time, see what is the reason you have come. (indistinct) ...elderly person, he will come. (indistinct) younger brothers (indistinct) but that he has no power to do. Misunderstanding there will be, after all it is the material world. You go and see why (indistinct). I used to think like that. In all our temples the prasāda distribution should be so random (?), that within ten miles nobody should remain hungry. There are many persons in India, they are half time hungry. So if you distribute prasādam, "Come over here. You are hungry, take prasādam. If I cannot supply daily, I'll supply at least two days, three days weekly." And they're coming. You have seen Māyāpura (indistinct). A big prasāda distribution hall. Regular two thousands are coming (indistinct). And Hindu, Muslim, they're sitting down. No (indistinct).

Hari-śauri: Is there any reason why we are just distribute on a Saturday and Sunday?

Prabhupāda: Oh, (indistinct) we can distribute every day.

Hari-śauri: Let them come every day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is (indistinct). Otherwise (indistinct). Let them eat. They can eat.

Hari-śauri: If they get a (indistinct) successful and they get regular amounts...

Prabhupāda: It will be successful.

Hari-śauri: Then they could increase that.

Prabhupāda: It will be successful.

Rāmeśvara: I think we can make a million dollars a year.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Rāmeśvara: After it has been developed.

Prabhupāda: And purchase grains. (indistinct) purchase books.

Rāmeśvara: I've studied but more Americans buy records than books. They spend more money buying records than buying books.

Prabhupāda: Mm. That is natural.

Rāmeśvara: But commercially there's some good potential.

Prabhupāda: But do not neglect book sales.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: That will not do. This is our first business.

 

Room Conversation                                   January 15, 1977, Allahabad                                                        476454

Prabhupāda: ...in Western countries, fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in England.

Gurudāsa: Twenty years in...?

Prabhupāda: In Durban. South Africa. Fighting with General Smuts to give Indians equal rights. They are very conservative. At heart they want "Indians may go away." They don't want Indians. And if they want, it is for their own benefit. The Indians have given some place to develop as marketplace, and as soon as they develop, they ask, "Go there. Leave this place. Go away, other place." This is going on. And they know very well, politicians. The Indians have been given a place where nearby there is a slaughterhouse. They know Indians are sentimental, at least for cow slaughtering. Whole night slaughtering is going on, and there are screaming of the animals. Whole night. Even those who are meat-eaters, they will be disturbed. So the purpose is that "Let them live near the slaughterhouse, so by sentiment they are disgusted, leave this country." They don't want the Asians, especially Indians, and especially due to Gandhi, because they know, due to Gandhi... At least Gandhi organized the public opinion against the Britishers by this noncooperation movement. They were not affected by the... Affected in this way, that public opinion was against them. That is also organization. Otherwise Gandhi's method was not harmful to the..., this noncooperation, nonviolent. That did not help. But he influenced the public opinion against them.

Rāmeśvara: All over the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That Hitler also did. Phāṇsa lāge dubudh bage: "If five men combine together, even the ghost will go away." (laughs) So everyone was against the Britishers. How they can keep their...? And nature's law also. They exploited the whole world for the benefit of few persons in London, and that is very bad.

Gurudāsa: You told me they wanted to be paid in gold by the Home Bill just to deplete the economy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Home Bill. Because I was student of economics. So Home Bill. Home Bill means all the Englishmen were engaged in India, either government, railway, industry, factory, and so on, so on, so on. Whatever... They have got some charges. So all the bills were sent to London, and they made a Home Bill. Their home is in England, so they won't take payment here. They'll take payment at home. And the government there, they'll present the whole bill to India and debit India's account in gold. That means, other words, all the payments which were to be made to the Englishmen in India, they were paid at home in gold.

Gurudāsa: So that means they would spend at home instead of India for the benefit of themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No Englishmens were allowed to domicile in India. No. Strictly. But if... As soon as they make home, it will be America. The Americans made their home in America, so a war of independence was... They have experienced that, so did not allow the Englishmen to make India home. "You come here, work and take your payment. Can't come down."(?) This was the policy, Home Bill. And India's gold was kept in London. So gradually all the gold finished. Very, very crooked policy they followed. They... They... In Muhammadan period there was no such peaceful exploitation. These Muhammadans, they wanted to become lumma, kukum(?). Bas. That's all. They were satisfied. But their princely expenditure was done in India. When Shah Jahan constructed the Taj Mahal, heavy expenditure, but the payment was received by the Indians. And here a railway, very smart railway bridge is constructed that... The payment was paid in England. This was the policy. Every even screw, iron screw, was imported from England.

Gurudāsa: Yes. India was dependent on tea and cloth from England.

Prabhupāda: But tea they also produce it.

Gurudāsa: Was it introduced by the English?

Prabhupāda: Yes. India did not know what is tea. They started the tea gardens, and they recruited labors from India. We have seen in our childhood that Mahatma Gandhi Road. When I was standing on the gate, five hundred, six hundred laborers recruited from Bihar. Bihar and Orissa, these two provinces very poor. Even all these colonies, just like Trinidad... Where is Englishmen? If the laborers and Indians were sent... Therefore we find in Mauritius, in Africa, so many Indians. Their kingdom, first of all it was conquered by Indian soldiers. Then, when it was to be organized--Indian coolies, Indian laborers, Indian guards. They have got men and money, but they expanded Empire. So I am doing the same business: American money, American... (laughs) I am also a great politician.

Gurudāsa: Home Bill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But I am not for home. I am for the whole world. It is not... I have no such idea (laughs) that "I shall exploit American men and money for India." That is not my ambition. For the benefit of the whole world.

Gurudāsa: You are doing "Back to Home" bill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya. But actually I am exploiting American men and money, from this point of view. But what can I do? I do not make any national distinction, either American or Indian.

Gurudāsa: You are not exploiting...

Rāmeśvara: Spiritual Communism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurudāsa: They were exploiting; you are uplifting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is train?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Gurudāsa: There's no hurry. Also, if they could only spend their money in England, it means they wouldn't care so much for the country. They wouldn't care for India so much if they were going to spend the money in England.

Prabhupāda: No, practically I am spending America's money in a proper way. They would have used it in a different way.

Rāmeśvara: Japanese money also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurudāsa: No distinction. Any money will do. (break)

Prabhupāda: There is no exploitation. America has enough money, and India has got enough culture. So they should combine for the benefit of the whole world.

Rāmeśvara: Now American culture is highly developed sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That is always. Now they've got enough money, but how they will utilize? That is the only source, outlet.

Rāmeśvara: So as the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement increases its influence, then American culture will gradually change?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As you have changed. You are American. Why not others?

Rāmeśvara: So the nightclubs and the cinema, this will be gradually...

Prabhupāda: Not required.

Rāmeśvara: ...given up.

Prabhupāda: They simply produce anxiety. When they will come to understand that they will get better engagement, automatically these nonsense things will be stopped.

Rāmeśvara: Television also.

Prabhupāda: They can be utilized.

Gurudāsa: Yes, they can be utilized.

Prabhupāda: In a different way.

Rāmeśvara: Formerly civilization did not have so many technological devices.

Prabhupāda: This is not civilization. They do not know what is civilization. Suppose a mechanic has constructed this car far better than me. That is not civilization. A good craftsmanship. If you do not know what is the aim of life, what is your duty, then what is your civilization? That they do not know. The first defect of the civilization is that they are taking account of these fifty or sixty years of life. Life is continuation. That they do not know. This life, I am getting this facility of this car; next life I become a tree. What is the advantage after fifty years, if you are going to be a tree, stand up for five hundred years? This philosophy they do not know. Tathā dehāntara-praptiḥ. Here is the defect, that "You will have to change this body." They have become so dullheaded. "Oh, what is there? I change or die? It doesn't matter. Let me enjoy." This is the difficulty.

Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa conscious government must be monarchy. A real Kṛṣṇa conscious government...

Prabhupāda: No. Why monarchy? You can continue democracy, but the legislators should be first-class men who has knowledge, not these rascals.

Rāmeśvara: But the real problem is the businessmen, because they can influence the mass of people by advertising.

Prabhupāda: The mass of people should be educated. Just like we are educating, "No meat-eating." So automatically the meat-selling, slaughterhouse will be stopped.

Rāmeśvara: There must be some controls. Otherwise...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Control must be there, that... This is very easy. The state cannot support or maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you kill animal at your home. But state cannot. So mass sinful activities, state cannot. So if the legislators and the head of the state are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will understand the importance of this. So they can stop slaughterhouse. And the public agitation? "You can slaughter animal at your home. You have got the liberty, but state cannot maintain." What is the wrong there?

Rāmeśvara: What about buying books? There are so many books with nonsense ideas. That will have to be controlled also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the government is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they can control everything.

Rāmeśvara: That means the government will have direct controls over all different fields of business.

Prabhupāda: It has already. It has already.

Rāmeśvara: But in America the government cannot tell the publishing house, "You can only have Kṛṣṇa conscious books." They are tolerating books about sex, books about crime...

Prabhupāda: No, if you educate public that these are nasty things, in the school, colleges, where government has control, then automatically sale will be stopped.

Gurudāsa: Naturally.

Prabhupāda: If you educate people, "Don't waste your time," then they will stop. They are controlling in Russia, publication.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, and China also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But that's why I said... That is not possible, it seems, in a democracy. They have to have dictatorship.

Prabhupāda: No, democracy means people elected. If public wants that the election should be amongst the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, then it will be done. One man's ruling will not be possible unless there is dictatorship.

Gurudāsa: Consciousness must change.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (train sounds) So this is the train.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Still, in some people there will always be some greed how to make money by sinful means.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is greedy. Therefore education required, spiritual. They should be greedy for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When they will see this is better position, so their greediness will be for Kṛṣṇa and other thing will be left away.

Rāmeśvara: And the state will not tolerate...

Prabhupāda: Four classes of sinful activities should be stopped by the state.

Rāmeśvara: No manufacturing liquor, cigarettes.

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: That must be stopped.

Gurudāsa: No supporting slaughterhouses.

Rāmeśvara: But you said they can do it at their own home.

Prabhupāda: Liberty. If you like, you can do at your home.

Rāmeśvara: They can make their own alcohol.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurudāsa: Because you cannot stop anyway. (break)

 

Room Conversation(2)                            January 19, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     476734

Rāmeśvara: We know you have a very low opinion of doctors. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: I wish to die without a doctor. Don't... When I am... It may be. I may be seriously, but don't call doctor. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be disturbed. Everyone has to die. Let us die peacefully, without doctor. All this medicine, injections, and prohibitions, this, that.

Hari-śauri: Tīrtha Mahārāja had all kinds of machines. Still didn't save him.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and depend on Kṛṣṇa. Actually... Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. That is the Prahlāda Mahārāja's verse. Find out this. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha. Seventh Canto.

Rāmeśvara: Volume Two. That's it.

Hari-śauri: What was that again?

Prabhupāda: Bālasya. B-a-l-a.

Hari-śauri: Bālasyāntaḥpura-sthas...

Prabhupāda: Bālasya neha.

Hari-śauri: Oh. Bālasya neha. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha nārtasya cāgadam...

Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ.

Hari-śauri: Taptasya tat-pratividhir ya ihāïjaseṣṭas.

Prabhupāda: Ihāïjaseṣṭas.

Hari-śauri: Tāvad vibho tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām.

Prabhupāda: Tvad-upekṣitānām.

Hari-śauri: "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, O Supreme, because of a bodily conception of life, embodied souls neglected and not cared for by You cannot do anything for their betterment."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Hari-śauri: "Whatever remedies they accept, although perhaps temporarily beneficial, are certainly impermanent. For example, a father and mother cannot protect their child, a physician and medicine cannot relieve a suffering patient, and a boat on the ocean cannot protect a drowning man."

Prabhupāda: These are facts.

Gargamuni: That's ultimately, but maybe we could give you some temporary relief so we don't feel... Because when you are ill, we feel...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... But for that, no severe treatment should be accepted. Better not to take. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the past, when your health has not been good, they have begun chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in all the temples...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: ...all around the world.

Rāmeśvara: Special, additional kīrtana.

Bhavānanda: Perhaps we should institute that. That would...

Prabhupāda: No, you... Not for my health you do your kīrtana, only then. That first stroke in Second Avenue, that was fatal. You were present, I think.

 

Morning Walk                                      January 21, 1977, Bhubaneswar     (riding in car)                             477372

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says one who is completely free from sinful life, he can become perfectly a devotee. So these are the four pillars of sinful life. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Oh, it is nice park.

Rāmeśvara: But because this is the age of Kali, even if the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement spreads and even captures governments, how can we stop individual people from doing this? (car stops)

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot expect cent percent will be sinless. But there must be an ideal section--"Oh, here is..." That is wanted. That is wanted, not that you can expect cent percent ideal.

Gargamuni: Gate's locked?

Hari-śauri: So that ideal should be the persons who are living in our āśramas.

Rāmeśvara: No, they're in there.(?)

Gargamuni: That's our man. He jumped over the fence to get the gate open open.

Rāmeśvara: But now, suppose there is some businessman, and he knows that everybody is wanting this sex. So he is making movie or writing a book describing these things.

Prabhupāda: These things were formerly restricted--censor board.

Rāmeśvara: So there must be censorship...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...in a Kṛṣṇa conscious...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...government.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Censorship of television, radio, all media.

Prabhupāda: So let us... (car door opens--break) The people are becoming godless. How much degradation. Lord Rāmacandra appeared, Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared, Lord Buddha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared and many others, and the people of India, they are becoming godless. Why? Do you follow what I say? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. And He does it in India within this universe. And they are become now... This is Kali-yuga. Other countries, they may, but India, so fortunate birth... Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya janma. They are becoming degraded so much so that they are doubting, asking questions. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 January 21, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     478374

Prabhupāda: Just like if there are temples, people are accustomed, going to temple, chanting Hare..., there is no harm. But the city like the Western countries, simply sense gratification, that should be stopped.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Yes. And you mention specifically...

Prabhupāda: Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time there were cities like Mathurā, Dvārakā. They were cities, big, big city. And when Kṛṣṇa came, they were decorating, they were receiving. So that kind of city will continue, but not this hellish city--slaughterhouse, brothel and big, big tin car, and so on, accident.

Hari-śauri: Skyscrapers.

Prabhupāda: We have no objection to this, provided there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately these things cover more time for their maintenance, and they forget Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That should be stopped. The main business is development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Rāmeśvara: And you also mentioned not so much these ugra-karmic jobs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Industry. Now hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs in this way. So...

Prabhupāda: Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm. As soon as they are jobless, "Come on. We shall feed you. We shall give you food." There is no scarcity of food.

Hari-śauri: Does that mean we have to wait for the situation to arise where they are jobless?

Prabhupāda: No. Wait... We are waiting, but if anyone comes, we have already big, big farms. "Come, hundreds. We shall provide you."

Hari-śauri: But this is talking in terms of millions of people who are engaged in America in the cities.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let millions... The land is also millions' acres. We shall utilize gradually.

Rāmeśvara: Now, what I am thinking is this, that you have mentioned many times, several times, that there is a conflict which is inevitable between Russia and America.

Prabhupāda: Hm. No, if they understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, both of them--now we are publishing--then there will be no conflict on...

Rāmeśvara: If Russia...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But if not...

Prabhupāda: Then we shall force America to fight with them. Finish this philosophy.

Rāmeśvara: Now, if this conflict takes place, then you mentioned that many cities both in America and Russia will be bombed or affected by this conflict.

Prabhupāda: Hm, hm.

Rāmeśvara: So when the war is finished...

Prabhupāda: Then they will come to their senses.

Rāmeśvara: Then there will be nothing left. Their jobs, their factories, it will all... So then they'll be able to easily understand, "Now let us start again. We'll live on the farm. Simpler life."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be good lesson for them.

Rāmeśvara: So is this conflict part of the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. To... Conflict means to finish the sinful activities, finish, stop it.

Rāmeśvara: It seems that then this conflict will be a great opportunity for our movement.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: And afterwards there will be an opportunity to influence people.

Prabhupāda: We shall take every opportunity. We are the best opportunists. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu... This is ānukūla. This is favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall immediately accept. It doesn't matter what it is. We do not depend on the public opinion--"This is good" or "This is bad." Our "good" "bad" is: if it is favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is good; otherwise bad.

Rāmeśvara: So it seems that as our movement grows more and more...

Prabhupāda: Strong.

Rāmeśvara: ...then America will more and more be considering active stopping of Communism. It'll be logical.

Prabhupāda: Everything will be stopped, all bogus social, political or religious systems. They will be all stopped.

Rāmeśvara: Then this will be a natural development of the growth of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Two things: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. As the duṣkṛtā--na māṁ duṣkṛtā mūòhāḥ--will be reduced, the sādhu will increase. Or the sādhu will increase, the duṣkṛta will decrease.

Rāmeśvara: This conflict will be global. It will affect the whole world.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That doesn't matter.

Hari-śauri: We're already in every country now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Kurukṣetra fight.

Rāmeśvara: So this conflict will take place...

Prabhupāda: Support Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja and kill Duryodhana. This is Kurukṣetra.

Rāmeśvara: It seems our movement has to grow much more...

Prabhupāda: It will grow.

Rāmeśvara: ...before this will take place.

Prabhupāda: It will grow: It is growing. Simply our workers should be very sincere and strict, and it will it grow. Nobody can check. That's a fact. Simply we have to be very strict and sincere. Then nobody can check.

Rāmeśvara: Because after such a conflict the whole world will...

Prabhupāda: Conflict is already there. Just like they're opposing.

Rāmeśvara: But I mean actual destruction of their culture, their...

Prabhupāda: Now they are trying to destroy us. And we are trying to destroy them. The conflict is already there. And this is now psychological fight. And then there will be actual fight. And we must take part in that fight.

Rāmeśvara: We will be the only ones who have any vision what to do after the war.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got clear vision. We are not putting any theory. We are always presenting fact, and that is materializing. Just like we started this farm. It is materializing gradually. It is not yet fully organized; still, there is hope that it will give peace to the people. There is sufficient hope.

Hari-śauri: Is our goal to actually establish Vedic principles back into society again at large?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Of course.

Prabhupāda: That will be Satya-yuga. Again the Vedic principles will be established after finishing this Kali-yuga. And that is Satya-yuga. That is going on. Just after summer, there is winter. There is... After winter, there is summer.

Rāmeśvara: But this is extraordinary. Lord Caitanya's movement, the ten thousand years of His movement, that is a special exception for the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Special for this millennium. But the thing is going on like that, rotating.

Rāmeśvara: But in general, first it gets more and more degraded. Then it's all finished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is degradation, there is no question of improvement. So this is going on. This is nature's way, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate, appearance and disappearance.

Rāmeśvara: Now, this Kṛṣṇa conscious government... Will many of the things that are going on in America, like schools and education, teaching people to read and write...

Prabhupāda: They'll have to reform.

Rāmeśvara: That will all continue, but it will be adjusted so that Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gurukula, Gurukula education.

Rāmeśvara: Still we'll be teaching subjects like history and math.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without teaching, how the human society will exist? There must be.

Hari-śauri: No, he's talking about some of the subjects they teach now.

Rāmeśvara: Material science as well as spiritual science?

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. There is no need of so-called material science--how to kill children in the womb. These things will be kicked out. Nonsense.

Rāmeśvara: Do you think that they will adopt Indian medicine over Western medicine, things like that? Because there has to be some varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: No, medicine, if it is actually medicine, it will be accepted. It doesn't matter whether it is Indian or Western. If it is medicine it will be accepted.

Rāmeśvara: So that kind of research is in the mode of goodness.

Prabhupāda: That is already there. We have to make little research. It, already there. There are books, Āyurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatāra, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: You have written in the First Canto that we welcome scientists, doctors...

Prabhupāda: Yes, if it is beneficial.

Rāmeśvara: We welcome all these people if they dovetail their work for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So it's not that these...

Prabhupāda: We do not approve anything which is not actually beneficial. Otherwise it doesn't matter, homeopathic or allopathic. But there is standard medicine given by Dhanvantari.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. But what about certain technological advancements like airplanes and automobiles?

Prabhupāda: There are subtler aeroplanes. Aeroplane is mentioned in the śāstras. Now they are working on machine, but there are aeroplanes which can work on mantra.

Rāmeśvara: But that science is lost.

Prabhupāda: Not lost. It is there.

Hari-śauri: It's hidden.

Rāmeśvara: We can't practice that.

Prabhupāda: No, we can practice what is called ākāśa paṭala. This book is there in Germany. It was purchased by the Germans.

Rāmeśvara: But do you think that the Vedic sciences will be revived as our movement becomes...

Prabhupāda: No, no, our main purpose is to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In favor of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whatever is available, beneficial, we shall adopt.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, we want to reorganize all of society so that they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's it. We do not hate anything. That is not our business. Just like we utilizing this. So it is modern, scientific gift. So we can utilize it for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say... We are not so bigot--"No, no. It is material. We shall not touch it." We are not such fool.

Hari-śauri: No, we can use everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: But just like when we want to try and attract someone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness now, the main theme is to try to get them to come and stay at the temple. But will that continue in the future?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why not? It is learning. It is center for teaching you.

Rāmeśvara: No, you've... I think... You have already mentioned that we cannot expect that every man will completely surrender cent percent.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not possible.

Rāmeśvara: There can be one example.

Prabhupāda: There are three guṇas. So somebody is under sattva-guṇa, somebody is... So you cannot disturb the... Let them remain in their... But we... Our process is transcendental. Kevalayā bhaktyā. Kecit kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parāyaṇaḥ. Simply by bhakti we transcend all qualities--sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So we have nothing to do with the qualities of material nature.

Hari-śauri: So those persons who can't come up to the standard of the temple life...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...they should remain outside.

Prabhupāda: That is above all the guṇas.

Rāmeśvara: That's very rare. That is the most rare.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Not every man. You always say it's not possible for every man.

Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot do. Because you are in the material world, how you can avoid the influence of material qualities? But our process is so nice that anyone can avoid if he follows. There is no difficulty.

Hari-śauri: But just like in our society we already have so many people who are initiated, but they can't follow the principles very strictly.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will take some time. They'll do it.

Hari-śauri: They just have to be encouraged to keep that association.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I stress in every letter, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa at least sixteen times. Follow the principles." That can be done.(?) This simple method will help. Even if he cannot strictly follow, still, whatever he has done, that is his asset. And it will give me more and more chance. So it is not actually lost. Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbhujaṁ harer, patet tato yadi bhajann apakvo 'tha.

Hari-śauri: So we have to give allowances to such people. We have to give allowance?

Prabhupāda: Allowance? It is not allowance, but give him instruction. It is up to him to follow or not to follow.

Hari-śauri: But we cannot give any compromise.

Prabhupāda: No. This is the way. "But you are not able? All right, take little more time."

Hari-śauri: So, say like one point now that's coming up more and more is that these married couples, the women want a divorce or get another husband.

Prabhupāda: But we should not implicate.

Hari-śauri: So we cannot encourage divorce.

Prabhupāda: No. We do not meddle matters in that way very much. That is a sideline.

Rāmeśvara: And one thing about government that we see, at least in America, is that each time there is an election the candidates may make so many pledges, "I think I'll go this way."

Prabhupāda: No, election is going on under some rules and regulations, so you can make election under Kṛṣṇa conscious government rules and regulations. That can be done. Legislative assembly, the senators, they must be all first-class brāhmaṇas. Otherwise he cannot be elected. This is should be introduced. Unless one is following the brahminical principles, he cannot be elected. He must give up these four principles of sinful life. He should not accept any salary. Very much learned scholar in Vedic literature. Then he will be elected.

Rāmeśvara: That will happen one day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will guide the whole nation. The rascals, anyway, the naked and prostitute-hunter, what they can do? These third-class, fourth-class, tenth-class men are being elected. There is no happiness. There is no solution of problems. All tenth-class men. I directly challenged one gentleman that "You are all tenth-class men." Pāpa... Pāpa...

Hari-śauri: That man in Perth.

Prabhupāda: "There is no first-class man now governing the situation. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class. There is no first-class man." I challenged him.

Hari-śauri: When he went out the door he said, "Oh, well, I suppose I'd better go back to my fourth-class life."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. You are already.

Rāmeśvara: In Vedic culture, kings like Parīkṣit Mahārāja were trained when they were very young.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So it seems...

Prabhupāda: They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force: "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all, śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, "Leg, please walk in this way." That's all, legs will move. He carries me. "Hands, give me protection." Immediately, "Yes!" A bad somebody(?) "Come on." Yes. Coming. "Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient..." This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men, simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is... What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.

Hari-śauri: Pandemonium.

Prabhupāda: Pandemonium, yes. This has to be reformed. You cannot avoid these four classes working under the superior instruction of brahminical culture. Then everything... This life successful, next life is back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization, no speculation. The formula is already there. Bhagavad-gītā is the guidance, as it is. "Be happy here, and next life hope. Why you are disappointed? Take this way and be happy." This is our movement. We are not going to exploit anyone. We are giving the right path: "Be happy in this life and next life also." This is our mission. Para upakāra. They are blindly following some ways of life. Blind men, certainly, without guidance, we are falling down in the ditch. Once this human life is misused, he falls down in the ditch. He does not... He becomes a tree. "Stand up there for one thousand years. What you can do?" This risk they are taking. They do not believe, therefore, there is next life. And wherefrom this life came, varieties? These rascals have no brain, and they are passing as scientist, politician, philosopher, all rascals, tenth-class men. Tell them. Challenge them, "What do you know about the value of life? Your brain must be washed to clear out all the dirty things." Our duty is that. Just like a patient does not know how he will be cured, but the surgeon--"Operation. Clear out these pusses." He may protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!" But "Yes! It is my business. Clear out the pusses. Then you will be relieved--by force." But he can protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!" "Pusses, what for you...? Pusses is not to be maintained. It has to be cleared out." This is para upakāra, doing good to others. And the patient will protest, "Oh, this rascal doctor, killing me, killing me, killing me!" "Yes, I am not killing you. I am saving you. You go on accusing me any way, but I must do my duty." This is the point. "Yes, we are washing brain," exactly like the experienced surgeon. He doesn't make any compromise. "Oh, you are suffering from the boil. There is pus. All right, you don't like operation?" Will that cure? ""No, fool! Come one. Bring knife. Cut it. Press. Now?" "Oh, I am so relieved! You are God. You are God." Then he will see. That is our duty: purge out all pusses accumulated due to infection, material infection. This is our duty. We cannot make any compromise. When the pusses are to be purged out, we cannot take your advice, that "Just blow some air from the mouth or some fan. It will be cured." No, it will not be. Take surgical operation. That is only way. Purge out. "No this! No this! No this! No meat-eating, no..." This is purging.

Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                          January 21, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                       477388

Prabhupāda: ...port an worldwide movement. Very cautiously, very intelligently, we should use our resources, intelligence. This is a worldwide movement. And feeling our pressure. There is obstruction, therefore. And it is genuine. There is no doubt about it. No doubt about it. We are not going to be defeated. I am confident. And with this confidence I went to your country that "Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu's..." That is substance. "So many rascals are going and talking nonsense. They are becoming successful. Why not Caitanya Mahāprabhu?" That was my confi... Otherwise I never expected that I shall be able to write so many books and it will be so much appreciated. It is wonderful appreciation. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I never expected. I thought that "Who will hear me if I say all this nonsense to them?" To them it is nonsense. Therefore they say "brainwash." They cannot appreciate.

Hari-śauri: There's never been such appreciation of one author's work before. It's just amazing.

Rāmeśvara: Even our own men are taking our mission more seriously now that these appreciations have come. They are understanding more how this is the only hope for the whole world, very grave work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. That's a fact. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sāt... Find out this verse. We are giving a light which was unknown in the world. That's a fact. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata... Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. This is the secret of making the world happy. Anārtha. Simply they have created unwanted things, and people are suffering. So in order to cut down these anarthas, unnecessary, unwanted thing, this is the only way. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. First part? No, no, it is no Bhagavad-gītā. It is the Bhāgavatam, First part.

Hari-śauri: Oh. We don't have it. We haven't got a First Canto.

Prabhupāda: Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād.

Rāmeśvara: It's like you say. It's a new culture. Our art paintings one day will be seen all over the world. Just like now they hang art paintings in all government buildings.

Prabhupāda: It was written for this purpose. People are suffering by their concocted culture, suffering. And Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Actually it is his mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But I am... I have tried sincerely. I am not qualified, but only qualification is that I tried to do the best. That's all, that much qualification. I had faith in their program, and I thought, "I shall try my best, whatever capacity I have got." That's all. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve tathā gurau. Little confident that "Why? If Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it, my Guru Mahārāja wants it, why it will not be successful? Let me try." That's all. Mukhaṁ karoti vācālaṁ panguṁ laìghayate girim: "A dumb man can become orator." (laughs) It is like that. I never thought that they will praise so much. What it is possible? Mukhaṁ karoti vācālam. (laughs) "A dumb man can become orator, and a lame man can cross over the mountain." Yat kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam. By the mercy of guru it is possible. So these are not stories. They are fact. That is spiritual life. All right.

Rāmeśvara: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...changing. The prescription is there, but I am trying my humble way to present it. That's all. I have no power. But the, the order is there. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād. And people do not know it. Therefore this Bhāgavata is presented. Now give it to the people. Our credit should be that we are giving the statement of Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, as it is. That's all. No adulteration, interpretation. It has been medicine. Medicine is there already. It is not that I have manufactured the medicine. But we are administering in the proper way. Therefore it is becoming... We cannot make any medicine. Medicine is already there. But we don't make any adulteration. As it is, we are administering, and therefore it is coming out nice.

                                                                                                                                                                        477596

Rāmeśvara: There was one question I had, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You have written in the Third Volume of the First Canto different instructions for the age of Kali, how there'll be compulsory marriage and so on and so on. And you mentioned about the gold standard, that this is very bad, this artificial standard of monetary exchange.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is very bad.

Rāmeśvara: In the future this is something that we should try to correct.

Prabhupāda: You should introduce coin, real money.

Hari-śauri: Real gold coins. No paper.

Prabhupāda: Anyone has got money... It is fact. And what is this nonsense, keeping some paper and thinking he has got money? How cheating it is going on, from government's side. And therefore artificial inflation. You can print, so the price is increased. Because you haven't got to pay him real money, you print and pay him, and he will ask, "Give me this money. Then I'll supply." "All right, take." You print and pay.

Rāmeśvara: It's definitely a means that the government has for controlling. Because they can withdraw money, pull it back out of circulation by increasing the interest the banks give, or they can get more money in...

Prabhupāda: Anything done artificially.

Rāmeśvara: They control the amount of interest on loans. It's all standardized from what they call the Federal Reserve system. This was introduced during the Depression by the bankers.

Prabhupāda: Whatever they do, when you receive money in the paper it has no value. Bad money. It is bad money. It is not good money.

Rāmeśvara: Actually most purchasing in America is done on credit now. Even a step beyond paper money is credit, no money, buying on no money, loans.

Prabhupāda: That is in India also.

Rāmeśvara: We don't find these things in Vedic culture too much.

Prabhupāda: There was never paper money.

Hari-śauri: No. They used to...

Prabhupāda: That barter system. You have got rice; I have got something else. So I give you something; you give me something.

Hari-śauri: But isn't inflation possible even with coins? Even if you have gold coins, isn't inflation still possible?

Prabhupāda: No, gold is acceptable by everyone.

Rāmeśvara: The main point is the barter system.

Hari-śauri: Yes, well its value is recognized by its purchasing power.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So you can alter... Say, you have one gold coin. You can alter what it...

Prabhupāda: No. If you introduce real metal coin, then there will be no inflation.

Hari-śauri: There's only a certain amount of metal.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The exchange... The more demand, more price. So suppose here is a spectacle. I am demanding ten rupees. So both of you are customer, and you are asking for this spectacle. Then I am increasing my price. So if you can pay me by printing paper, you'll accept any price. That means artificially price is increased. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So the idea is that with coins the man who has the goods, he can't...

Prabhupāda: Therefore... Suppose he has got ten coins; you have got ten coins. I am wanting fifteen coins. So there will be no competition. I have to accept either from you or you, ten coins.

Hari-śauri: Right. Because there's only that much money.

Prabhupāda: But if I increase price and if you print... If you have got power to print, "All right. Take fifteen coins, er, fifteen rupees." But you print and pay me. But if the gold, the coin, is there, you cannot increase on that.

Hari-śauri: He can't increase the price of the product, and the man who got..., 'cause there's only a certain amount of money there.

Prabhupāda: But I can increase the price provided you pay me. But by printing, it is easier. But if you have to collect coins, that will be difficult, so there will be no artificial increase of...

Hari-śauri: Yes. Coins is a check...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...on charging too much.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. And these rascals, they are artificially printing paper as money. And I am a rascal; I'm demanding more because I have got customer.

Rāmeśvara: The difference between Vedic culture and..., the Kṛṣṇa conscious culture and the modern culture is very, very dramatic, very big difference. So the transforming of society...

Prabhupāda: And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products. That's all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.

Rāmeśvara: Weaving, cloth.

Prabhupāda: Everything I get. So I haven't got to go outside for exchange. If you are satisfied in your farm--I am satisfied--then where is question of exchange? There is no need of artificial... So this banking, "fanking," everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to keep money in the bank?

Hari-śauri: Who needs it?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also collapsed.

Hari-śauri: This is revolutionary.

Rāmeśvara: It's very hard for the mind to...

Prabhupāda: No, simply do this.

Rāmeśvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever it may be... We should be satisfied locally by our food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell. We don't care. If you want to SAVE yourself also, you do this. Here is an example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do. But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.

Hari-śauri: But still, we're going out to attract people to come to our life-style.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: We're still going out to attract people to come and live like us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Well, even more than that, we know that we have the secret to real life, so it's our duty to actually... Just like you say...

Prabhupāda: That is preaching. That is preaching.

Rāmeśvara: ...the surgeon, he must cut.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: The doctor must...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...save the patient. It's his duty.

Prabhupāda: No artificial dealing. Purge out.

Hari-śauri: When one actually has the power, he can do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So by our preaching now, we have to try and establish a Kṛṣṇa consciousness government first through the democratic system.

Rāmeśvara: You said, "Think in terms of the whole world, not just one nation. That is our preaching." So you are training us to think very big, global.

Prabhupāda: We keep the ideal style of life. YOU LEARN AND DO IT. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but IF YOU WANT TO BE HAPPY, you follow. This is our process. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you make minus Kṛṣṇa consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: Only if the chanting and prasādam is there.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."

Hari-śauri: A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things.

Prabhupāda: So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar.

Prabhupāda: No, everything--Deity worship, chanting, kīrtana, preaching, publishing, distributing--everything.

Rāmeśvara: This requires superintelligence. Just like, say, in Los Angeles there are two hundred devotees. It is taxing our brains how to give proper engagement to every one of them.

Prabhupāda: Well, this engagement is: "Go and sell books." That engagement is already there.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, but some are not qualified, some householders...

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of quality, of... It doesn't matter whether he sells one book or hundred books. It doesn't matter. Let him be engaged, that's all.

Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm saying. To find the proper engagement, the best utilization of every man's...

Prabhupāda: This is very good engagement, very good engagement. Go door to door. I don't mind if you no sell. But you have gone. That's all. I don't mind. It is not business, that "Because you could not sell anything, your salary will be dismissed." No. There is no such question.

Rāmeśvara: But then they feel dissatisfied. Then they would prefer to do something else where they can perform better. They can accomplish something more.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no.

Hari-śauri: Our devotees tend to work on a fruitive basis.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: If they don't get some result from their activity, they become discouraged.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Now, who said that "You don't bring money"? But I am not discouraging you, even if you don't bring money.

Gargamuni: When we took sannyāsa, you told us to go door to door.

Prabhupāda: That's all!

Gargamuni: We brought some fruits and some change, and Prabhupāda was very satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: We went door to door for two hours.

Rāmeśvara: No, I mean it is practical that if a man comes with artistic talents, then I will try to engage him as an artist. Different talents...

Prabhupāda: No, engage him. There must be engagement. Either as a artist or bookseller, there must be engagement.

Rāmeśvara: According to different talents.

Prabhupāda: Nobody should be allowed to keep himself lazy. That is not good. Niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. That is... Find out this verse. Oh, he has taken away?

Hari-śauri: Bhagavad-gītā. Oh, I can get another Gītā.

Gargamuni: And they will be successful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?

Gargamuni: If they are sincere, they will be successful.

Rāmeśvara: So it is little taxing...

Prabhupāda: Not taxing. I was doing alone this. I was printing Back to Godhead and going to the press. I was writing. I was posting.

Gargamuni: In one room you had many corners for your different projects. (chuckles)

Rāmeśvara: But if you have hundreds and hundreds of devotees in one center, then you have to be concerned with their spiritual life, how they are engaged, how they're supported.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual life...

Rāmeśvara: So the more people that come, the more intelligence is required to manage.

Prabhupāda: We can accommodate more people also. There is no difficulty.

Gargamuni: Our Māyāpura can hold five hundred men now.

Prabhupāda: Already?

Gargamuni: No, you said that one building...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: ...we can hold five hundred men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So we are waiting for these men. If they have so many extra men for taxing, then send them here.

Rāmeśvara: No, that's not the point at all. That's not at all the point.

Hari-śauri: What was that verse again, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that verse you wanted?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What subject matter? Niyatam.

niyataṁ kuru karma tvam

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

Rāmeśvara: I'm thinking that by selling all these books, gradually hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people will want us to give them some advice. They'll want to elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders. They'll want us to guide the society. So it will require great intelligence...

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to know where he is. Then we can give. What is his position? Then we can give him. Just like diagnosis. You have to see what is the disease. Then we give medicine.

Rāmeśvara: One of the symptoms of the disease is that all of the people are engaged in artificial work, and the whole world is interdependent. It is very complex system of world trade, world finance.

Prabhupāda: But we have nothing to do with that.

Rāmeśvara: But since the rest of the world is going on like that, then to transform it, it's very...

Prabhupāda: No, we say, "You are embarrassed. You come to us. Live with us. You get your food, and whatever service you can do, that's all right. Come here." That's all. We'll send in one of our farms or in temple. Let him be trained up. And if he is actually serious, then have engagement. There is no difficulty. "And if you want that 'I shall work in this way,' that is not possible. You have to work in our way." Then there is unlimited opportunity.

Hari-śauri: You want that verse?

Prabhupāda: Niyata.

Hari-śauri:

niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ

karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never said that "You sit down, lazy." You must work. And that is intelligence, how to engage a person in some work. That requires governing body. That is intelligence. They should be ready to work, and your intelligence will engage them. And there is sufficient. Why you are constructing so many centers? There is enough work to do. Just like here. All people are coming, and each one can be preached, each one can be convinced of the philosophy.

                                                                                                                                                                        477788

Rāmeśvara: This problem practically ruined Australia's economy. Five years ago Australia was a very wealthy country, and then they elected a new government, socialist government, and they began increasing all sorts of benefits, pensions, welfare benefits. And millions of people... Not millions, but many working people stopped working because it was easier just to get the free money. In this way...

Prabhupāda: So you should be very careful. Because you are giving free prasādam, similarly all lazy fellow may not come and take free prasāda. Therefore engagement must be there. Otherwise this lazy fellow will come, sleep and take prasāda.

Gargamuni: In Māyāpura we feed free on Saturday, Sunday. And during the week we feed those who work, those who work, them we feed, those who do service.

Prabhupāda: No, one day, two days, we give prasādam. But regularly we give prasāda and they'll remain lazy.

Rāmeśvara: So in Australia they kicked out the government, completely kicked them out.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Rāmeśvara: And had a new government formed, because they had created a huge debt, federal debt. They were spending much more money than they had, and they were simply increasing the taxes more and more, and the people just kicked them out.

Prabhupāda: It is closed?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The year before they got kicked out, I was distributing magazines at one political rally. The Prime Minister came to Perth. And when he came there all the farmers came, and they were so angry, they were throwing rotten eggs at him and tin cans and all kinds of things.

Prabhupāda: The farmers.

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Rāmeśvara: They devalued the Australian dollar very much. The Australian dollar used to be worth maybe...

Prabhupāda: More than American dollar.

Rāmeśvara: One dollar, forty cents.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Or one dollar, sixty cents. Now it is almost equal.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So much.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They had to do that because their economy was ruined. He had taken away... This man was crazy. He had taken away all the tariffs, so that foreign countries were supplying their products in Australia, and the local businessmen..., local manufacturers were going out of business. So many problems. And they're so proud of their modern culture, modern education and advancement, but they're being blackmailed by the Arabs. The Arab countries are considered very undeveloped, and the Western world is so proud how advanced they are, yet they are now being blackmailed by the Arabs for oil. So what is the use of their advancement? And now whatever the Arabs want, they have to do.

Prabhupāda: I think he is not returning. He's gone forever. Gargamuni: Who?

Hari-śauri: Devi-dhāma. Oh, no. He's back. He's back.

Gargamuni: Just now.

Prabhupāda: So what did he bring?

Rāmeśvara: So they have become completely dependent on oil.

Prabhupāda: Anything artificial, it will break. You cannot make a scheme of mental concoction. That will not endure. You take standard it will be beneficial. The whole world is in chaotic condition because they have so many artificial way of living.

 

 

 

It seems that eventually, then, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement will establish one world government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Actually that is the meaning.

 

There is no needs of science. This is the science: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there will be sufficient rain, and you till the ground and grow food.

 

Not that the kṣatriyas were irresponsible, no. They were taking guidance from the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly persons, and they were ruling over.

 

Now we have, hundred years after, we have learned how to kill ox and bulls. That is your advancement. And kill your own children also. Rascal civilization. They say "primitive."

 

Don't think in national terms. That is very heinous.

 

We include even the animals, trees, plants--brothers. That is our philosophy. We feel. When you cut a tree unnecessarily, we feel. This is our feeling. Unless there is absolute necessity, we do not wish to kill even a tree, what to speak of animals. When in our Bombay the coconut trees were being cut, I was feeling actually: "Why unnecessarily the coconut trees...?" You cannot give anyone life, so how, what is living, you can kill? It may be tree or animal or plant. You cannot give him life. So you have to suffer for this.

 

...it from Padma Purāṇa, and he has explained in his own imagination. The idea has been taken from Padma Purāṇa because the Padma Purāṇa, it is already there, evolution…. He wanted to credit himself. He has stolen the idea from Padma Purāṇa and wanted to explain in his own way, imagination, speculation.

 

It is a rascal civilization, that's all. Western civilization is a rascal civilization. I do not take they are civilized even. No. White aborigines. That's all.

 

They do not know what is civilization. Such broader idea of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He never said that "Sit down in Vṛndāvana and become a bābājī." Kara para upakara. That is saìkīrtana.

abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu katiha mohan

brahmāra durlabha prema nitāi kare dāna

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Karuṇā-sindhu, the ocean of mercy, it was blocked. Let it be opened, and distribute throughout the whole world. So if you work vigorously, this is an epoch-making history, how real culture is being distributed for the benefit of the whole human society. They'll realize.

 

Every gentleman should have a valuable library of these. That we want. Then our preaching is successful.

 

...there the injunction of the śāstra, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. Cow should be protected. Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa did not say chāgala-rakṣya or hog-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. So it is the duty of the king or the state or the government to give protection to the cows.

 

Organize in this way throughout the whole world. Give them shelter; give them food; give them cloth. That is the most benevolent welfare activity in the human society. So here people have generally tendency to come to the beach to enjoy. "All right, we shall give you a place. Come on. Stay here. You haven't got to pay anything for food or lodging. Simply attend ārati, classes. Then... For experiment, three days' period, you see."

Gargamuni: Anyone.

Prabhupāda: Anyone.

Satsvarūpa: Even those three days they have to attend the maìgala-ārati?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maìgala-ārati they must attend.

 

Therefore ekādaśī. One day or two days in the month he should practice fasting, and then he'll be able to conquer over these things. These are all practical. So we should practice ourself and teach others. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if he thinks that he's quite all right in this material atmosphere, then he's doomed.

 

And you'll find uneducated Indian, still he's independent…And educated? He's just like dog--"Give me job"…and unemployed and eating at the cost of father or welfare activities, welfare department, and moving like dog. Just see practically.

 

And in the Vedic system--education for the brāhmaṇa, how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bas, education, a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight: "Go. Fight. Go in the forest and kill animals and lie, try again, learn how to kill." Education. Vaiśya--"Go to the field. See how the plow is moved, how to give protection to the..." Finish education. And śūdra, he has to work under the order of the master. Master says, "Do this": he'll do it. So where is education required, high education, university degrees?

 

But these two we challenge. We can challenge. They know. Therefore they want to bluff. They know that it is not possible for them to know. They know it perfectly well. It is not possible for their so-called science to understand what is the situation of this planetary system and what is the origin of life.

 

Your scientific knowledge, your car, means you are more dependent.

 

That is not, that India has no kṣatriya spirit. Very good kṣatriya spirit. But it was not organized. That is the difference of opinion between Gandhi and Subash. He wanted to organize it.

 

Theoretically, if our principles are adopted by the American people in general, as my disciples have done, then their whole industrial structure will be broken…And another thing is that if the public opinion becomes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will get vote and they'll capture government, because it is republic. That is another point, another.

 

Who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. Sa mantavyaḥ. He's sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Here you'll find they have no other business, simply Kṛṣṇa bhajana.

 

Satsvarūpa: If a scientist will accept there is God, then there is no harm in making scientific progress.

Prabhupāda: Then they will hear the words of God, Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be solved. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Then he will hear. They will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and there will be rain.

 

Only the brāhmaṇas, they used to copy and they used to vibrate the knowledge. And those who were interested, they were hearing and getting the knowledge. So what was the harm?

 

So this four-wheel car will not help you ultimately. Ultimately you have to die.

 

We don't support it. Our business does not support. You can live without car, but you cannot live without rainfall.

 

Your motorcar machine, that is not meant for the poor man. Poor man requires food grains. There is no water. What you are doing for that? They require bread, food grains. Supply them sufficiently. They'll be happy. Without motorcar they can live. You can live also. But without food grains you cannot live and they cannot live.

Satsvarūpa: They can't do it, but then, when we say, "Rains will come by yajïa," they'll say "No."

Prabhupāda: No, that is... You don't believe it, but here is the... That means you do not believe in God. Why don't you make an experiment? Ask everybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, kīrtana. As soon as you say you don't believe, then you don't believe in God, "God says."

 

 

 

 

"...such date I have posted. You have got the literature. If you permit me, then I can show some of the books." Then our local representatives advise, "You go and see this gentleman." In this way contact him and leave some book with him, that "You first of all see. Then decide." Very honest business.

 

... So I think sometimes that "Why this wonderful thing has happened to me?" So I search out. I search out only that I cent percent believe in the words of my spiritual... That's all, nothing else. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Don't think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.

 

Do your duty. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā..., āra nā koriho. That is bhajana.

 

I was never fortunate with such incidences. I am simply trying to carry out the order of my Guru Mahārāja. That's all.

 

So gradually you have to take the power of the king to correct the whole human society. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. That is Kṛṣṇa's business, to give protection to the right person and to chastise the wrong person, two things required, side by side. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. And dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Three, another. By chastising the wrongdoer and by giving protection to the right man, and then establish what is real religion. And then Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is perfect.

 

Actually they want to enjoy that sea bathing. They're going here and there. That is their business. That is not preaching. That is sense enjoyment.

 

Kīrtana and prasādam distribution. This is our preaching mainly.

 

So now you all GBC make a plan how to introduce the books in every home.

 

 

 

 

They have attempted this United Nation organization. And where is the philosophy how to make one state? That is cheating them. …Why not make one state--the whole world? Keep the democracy, but make one state, "United States of the World." Why "United States of America"? Make English language common language and "United States of the World." …So if you can educate people, they will be united. This is actually united nations movement. Actually see how these Europeans, Americans, and Africans, and others, without any artificial allurement, how we are keeping together. Nobody is dissatisfied with humble eating, humble living, humbly, plain living. So it is possible. There is possibility. We live simple life, high thinking--United Nation. We can possibly... And there will be no scarcity. If we live simple life with Kṛṣṇa conscious thinking, There will be no scarcity.

 

Produce food grains…Just like this is. How nice it is, from paddy. So you take the paddies, rice, eat, and the grass you can utilize in so many ways. Anywhere you can till the ground, you get paddy and the grass. Make your cottage. So shelter is there. And the animals also like this grass. You can make home. Where is the scarcity? Plain living, high thinking, and prepare for next life. Go back home, back to Godhead. Finish this hellish life of repeated birth and death.

 

Kṛṣṇa is loving the calf and also loving the gopīs. That is God. We have to study intelligently. Why God should make discrimination? He's taking care of the cows. He's taking care of the trees. He's taking care of the fruits, flowers, everyone. That is God. And everyone is loving Him. The calves, the cows, even the trees, giving fruit, flower--"Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa."

 

...obedient to God--that means offer sacrifices--then there will be regular rain. And if there is regular rain, any damn land is good for any purpose. Land has been made bad because there is no regular rain. They... Why the desert is? If there is regular rain, the desert will be also fertile. So it is gradually becoming desert. The whole world will be desert. No production. Suffer. Make your scientific research, godless. All rascals, full of rascals...

 

That is also another foolishness. How much water he'll carry by pipe?

 

This is our first understanding. Bokā. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, bokā. So at that time I was thinking, "Everyone is bokā?" (laughing) Guru Mahārāja says, "Everyone..." "Even Rabindranath Tagore, he is also bokā?" Later on I could under..., "Yes. Everyone is bokā."

 

With woman's money they became rich, not like me, with hard labor of writing books and selling.

 

Actually one who is serious going back to home, back to Godhead--for such person, one should be niṣkiïcana, no connection with these material woman and money. Niṣkiïcanasya. (break) But I am not collecting money for sense gratification. For preaching work.

 

Twenty-five thousand minimum. Now you can increase as much as you like.

 

And therefore I'm asking. Potential is wonderful, so why they are not attracted to live in the farm and be self-independent and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? That is our farm project. Our farm project is they should be satisfied with simple living. That is nice living. If you get milk, if you get fruit, if you get grain and open air, it is very healthy life. Why they should not be attracted?

Yogeśvara: It is still the beginning, and because it's the beginning, it is a little difficult sometimes.

Prabhupāda: That may be. But this should be our aim. We should not be attracted by the modern city life. Simplified life. Save time and utilize for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect life. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana life means agriculturist, cowherd boys, uneducated girls, cows and calves, and tree, fruits. This is Vṛndāvana. The center is Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: Simple living.

Prabhupāda: But they are the topmost devotees. These (chuckling) uneducated, without any town life, cow-men, they are Kṛṣṇa's best friend. Unsophisticated, no education, but love intense--that is perfect. That attracted Kṛṣṇa more. Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya na padam ekaṁ na kartavya... Kṛṣṇa is so much attached to Vṛndāvana that He goes nowhere... What is that? They are not educated girls, up-to-date fashion, (indistinct) or nothing. Crude. As soon as there was blowing of the flute, immediately they began to run towards Kṛṣṇa. Somebody is taking care of children, somebody is engaged in boiling milk, and somebody was even lying down with her husband. Still, immediately... Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Kṛṣṇa--that is Vṛndāvana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa. And other things--very simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk, and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death…So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way.

 

There'll be rainfall. And then even barren land will be fertile.

 

And in Vedic civilization, animal is being attempted to be killed--"Oh! Who are you?" "Kali-yuga." "Get out!" This is rāja, king. And there is nobody to protest. So many animals are being killed. This is Kali-yuga. Why? "They are my subject. You cannot touch." Kṛṣṇa is embracing gopīs and the calves also, not that He has selected only gopīs to be embraced. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya. "Anyone who loves Me... Loves or not, I am protecting." Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's giving protection to everyone. And if he is a devotee, a special protection. This is God, and government means God's representative, God's, not people's representative. Government does not mean people's representative. Government means God's representative. That is government. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for the loafer class. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Unless the kings and big, big stalwart leaders understand this science, how they will lead? Because these leaders, they do not understand Bhagavad-gītā, they make their own plan. Therefore so much catastrophe, chaotic condition. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Big, big government officer, big, big kings, presidents, ministers. They should understand it.

 

Our only mission is para-upakāra--we don't want to exploit anyone--Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.

 

 

 

 

Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?…They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.

 

Hari-śauri: So they... Originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That Christ is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Same word.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Kṛṣṇa. No, from his teaching, we can understand he is representative of God.

 

We are planning like that. "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

 

So our point is the devotees shall work. So there is no program to pay wages.

 

I want to start in that small state varṇāśrama idea. That is my dream. Small state it can be done, brāhmaṇa, kṣatri...

 

But we should not simply keep ourselves saved. We should think for others. That is para-upakāra. And that you cannot do unless you are in the safe position. Janma sārthaka kari'. If you become polluted, then you cannot do. That is the secret. If you are not polluted, then you can do. Otherwise it will be show only, no effect. This is the secret.

 

There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king.

 

They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?

 

If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact…Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.

 

Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiïcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiïcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.

Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.

 

Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā's chanting will come.

 

Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava.

 

Therefore this should be made…Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa…And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava…By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa.... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear…When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-

 

... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea…

 

Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?

Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...

 

Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

 

Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.

 

…What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that "Here is the position."

                                      

Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that.

 

That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly…

 

 

This is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of "we." That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.

 

Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.

Satsvarūpa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...

Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.

Hari-śauri: That's why we say, "we."

Prabhupāda: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-śauri: Well, again, that's...

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.

 

In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY

Room Conversation(6)                             January21, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     478328

Prabhupāda: ...the society. Eh? Father, mother, killing children, is that human society?

Rāmeśvara: No, lower than animal.

Prabhupāda: You see? And we have to tolerate this?

Rāmeśvara: Well, what about all these artificial divisions, "this nation," "that nation," "this land"?

Prabhupāda: That is also another fanaticism.  

Rāmeśvara: Nationalism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another fanaticism, gundaism. Not nationalism. Gundaism. "Everything belongs to God. We are sons of God. We must enjoy everywhere. You cannot check."

Rāmeśvara: It seems that eventually, then, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement will establish one world government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Actually that is the meaning.

Rāmeśvara: Within the period of...

Prabhupāda: We actually do. When you go to the sea, who claims "This is my sea"?

Hari-śauri: Actually they're doing that now. They have twelve-mile limits and things like that.

Prabhupāda: That is also limited. So twelve miles...

Hari-śauri: Middle of Atlantic they're not claiming.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no claim.

Rāmeśvara: So Lord Caitanya's movement will actually reach that level.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa." We are all children. The America is protecting for Americans "No! No American. Let the Chinese. They are so well congested. The Indians, come on!" You came here. It is not your father's property. Why do you check others, rascal? You stolen this property from the Red Indians, and now you have become proprietor.

Rāmeśvara: And they're paying the farmers not to grow food in America.

Prabhupāda: Just see. There is pūrṇam idam. By God's arrangement everything is full. There is no question of overpopulation. Just see. So much land is lying vacant. There is no utilization.

Rāmeśvara: No, they should use their science for developing the resources for the benefit of all people.

Prabhupāda: There is no needs of science. This is the science: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there will be sufficient rain, and you till the ground and grow food.

Hari-śauri: Actually by their science...

Prabhupāda: This is the science.

Hari-śauri: Their science is incapable.

Prabhupāda: Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. If there is... What is your nonsense science? If there is no rain, drought, what you can do?

Hari-śauri: They can't develop their science to that point where they can...

Prabhupāda: No, these... These scientists are rascals. I call them rascals. That's...

 

Evening Darśana                                       January 23, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     479049

Prabhupāda: He started this rajya hope: "We must have our own in hand."(?) So he was a very big man, barrister. One, his friend, he was also brāhmaṇa. So he felt it, and he was taking daily Gaṇgā-snāna. So this, his friend, Mr. Bannerjee, he came to see him, that "You bring one doctor." He refused: "No, I don't want. I'll drink this Ganges water." So he never took any help from the brāhmaṇas. But simply drinking Ganges water cured. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated, nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ, tāvad vibho tanu-bhrtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. A doctor medicine is not actually cure. Unless.... If somebody is neglected, denounced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, any amount of medicine or good physician will not be able to cure. Father, mother, is not the shelter of the children. The things are described in the Bhāgavatam.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad-gītā also mentions that the mantram is also Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...in some ślokas.

Prabhupāda: In another place, Bhāgavatam, it is said, bhavauṣadhi. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is bhavauṣadhi. And one must have faith rigidly. Otherwise.... Kṛṣṇa is the protector. In Bengali it is said, rākhe kṛṣṇa māre ke māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke: "If Kṛṣṇa wants to kill somebody, who can give him protection?" That faith we are losing at the present moment. We.... In India especially, we are born in a country where God descends as Lord Rāmacandra, Lord Kṛṣṇa, Lord Buddha, Caitanya. Now they are asking, "What is God?" So the whole culture has to be revived. And this is an attempt, humble attempt, to revive our old culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should join together. To this purpose we are attempting to open a center here. And Mr. Pandiya, how long you are here in...?

Mr. Pandiya: I'm here for the last six months, sir.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Before that, where you...?

Mr. Pandiya: Before that, I was at Berhampur.

Prabhupāda: So my guess was right. By seeing your face I asked you as some member of...

Mr. Pandiya: That's a terrific guess.

Prabhupāda: Bhāratī Mahārāja may be now about forty years? No. Little more.

Mr. Pandiya: Little more. I am now forty-nine, so he would be about four years younger.

Prabhupāda: Four years younger. Yes. But his health is nice. He looks younger. So in this book the whole incident is described. I have given everything in the commentary.

Guest (1): Everything is described. Only the thing is that we should get the sense and do in our action. That is the whole thing. Our roots are India...

Guest (2) (Indian man): Sir, how to bathe also it is mentioned.

Guest (1): Just a minute. Also India, in our country, in the recent history of our country, we had many cultured peoples like Gandhi and Patel. But how these two men became great, not others? Because only by their actions.

Prabhupāda: Our greatness in this country was considered on spiritual advancement.

Guest (2): Exactly. We Indian people, we know what is religion, not politics.

Prabhupāda: No. Politics is there. Politics means formerly the brāhmaṇas were the guide, teacher of the society, guide of the society. Brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas were not interested in politics. They would give advice to the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas would administer. Brāhmaṇas were not interested to take politics, from time immemorial, even during the time of Mahārāja Pṛthu. Not that the kṣatriyas were irresponsible, no. They were taking guidance from the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly persons, and they were ruling over. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was doing that. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was doing that. Lord Rāmacandra also.

Guest (2): During the present day, sir, to whom we will treat as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya and śūdra?

Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. According to the symptom.

Guest (1): Cātur-varnyam mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Prabhupāda: So actual...

Mr. Pandiya: Bratim(?) eva tu kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇas. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ.

Guest (3) (Indian man): During Pratāparudra's time, his rāja-guru was Kavi Jiya-devācārya (?).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every king.

Guest (3): And he was his preceptor and minister.

Prabhupāda: The Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also was...

Guest (3): (indistinct) to Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): He wrote Bhakti-bhāgavata mahā-kavya, and taking materials for Tenth Skandha of Bhāgavata, the Bhāgavata, he wrote a kavya called Bhakti-bhāgavata Mahā-kavya in thirty-two cantos, in the work only itself. When Pratāparudra was on expedition to South, he wrote on the bank of the river Kaveri this Mahā-kavya called Bhakti-bhāgavatam, containing thirty-two cantos, each canto containing about two hundred ślokas.

Prabhupāda: Big work.

Guest (3): And recently we have taken up the editing of this manuscript from our...

Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in manuscript.

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas were so learned at that time. Therefore brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita. Panditaji. Still they're addressed. Brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita, kṣatriyas were addressed as Thakura, vaiśyas were addressed as Mahājana, and śūdras were addressed as Chaudhuri. Yes, still. In northern India this is the etiquette.

Guest (1): But, sir, now these things are so complicated only the title indicates the caste.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Nowadays it is topsy-turvied. There is no system, Kali-yuga.

Guest (2): Today somebody is a brāhmaṇa, tomorrow's he's kṣatriya, and day after tomorrow he's something else.

Prabhupāda: Udaraṁ bharatā. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. Bas, Kali-yuga. Somehow or other, if you can fill up your bellies, then you are very expert. That is going on. If you can maintain your family nicely, then you are dakṣya. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. These symptoms are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because the Kali-yuga, it is so condemned that it will be difficult to maintain one's body and soul together, that udaraṁ bharita is very expert. He's maintaining. (laughs) Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā. All unfortunate, they have no certainty. In Western countries they have voluntarily given up regulative life, the hippies. No certainty where he shall eat, where he shall lie down. Voluntarily. Coming of very nice family. In Europe, America.... Especially in America there is no question of becoming poor. Everyone has got sufficient means. But still, voluntarily they have accepted this poverty. Voluntarily. A father is rich man. Grandfather is rich man. And besides that, the government maintains. If you have no engagement, the government will give you at least $25 per week. Is it not?

Satsvarūpa: More than that.

Prabhupāda: More than that. You were in the welfare department. What is the minimum?

Satsvarūpa: It keeps going up. I think it's more like forty, fifty dollars for one person.

Prabhupāda: Forty means at the rate of nine rupees.

Guest (2): Nine-fifty.

Prabhupāda: No, not fifty. Per week, yes.

Mr. Pandiya: In Western countries they give wages in terms of weeks.

Prabhupāda: Yes, weekly.

Guest (1): So spiritually they are innocent, comparing with India. We have become complicated after passing through many cultural ups and downs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Due to these blind leaders. You see Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2): But, sir, Gandhi told that "You read Gītā."

Prabhupāda: He did not know himself. (laughs) That is the pity. He has spoken in this Gītā lecture that "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different from Bhagavad-gītā." A Kṛṣṇa is a subject matter of imagination. Have you read his lecture on Gītā?

Guest (1): Gītā-pravacana.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Gītā-pra..., is Vinobha.

Guest (1): What students can do? In the topic of..., what students can do?

Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Because Gandhi or Vinobha or Vivekananda or Aurobindo, they did not come in the paramparā system. They have made themselves important by their own ideas. That we want to check. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. You cannot make any amendment or correction in the Bhagavad-gītā. But these people, unfortunately, they take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and give their own comment.

Mr. Pandiya: To suit their purposes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is the dangerous... And they are considered as big men, and people follow, and they are misled. Otherwise, in India, so much fallen condition due to these rascal leaders. That I am speaking repeatedly, although it may be very harsh. But we have to say that. Everyone has distorted. Gandhi says Kurukṣetra, "this body." Where is the chance of talking of "this body," the Kurukṣetra? Has he not?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where is the dictionary, "the body means Kurukṣetra, and Kurukṣetra means the body."

Guest (1): He has told, karma-kṣetra. Kuru-karma.

Prabhupāda: So you can drag some meaning. That is another thing. But Kurukṣetra is there still.

Mr. Pandiya: That is the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Guest (2): That is interpretation.

Prabhupāda: That is interpretation. Interpretation... Here is a person in the legal way. Interpretation is required when you cannot understand. Is it not?

Guest (2): Interpretation...

Prabhupāda: But when the things are understood very clearly, why interpretation?

Guest (2): It will, rather, confuse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Suppose I will drag this meaning...

Prabhupāda: This was protested by Caitanya Mahāprabhu vigorously. Why should you interpret?

Guest (4) (Indian man): Yes. He told, the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is the ultimate bhāṣya of prasthāna code, Vedānta-sūtra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, anything, if you can understand very clearly, where is the question of interpretation? But it has become a fashion that "If I can interpret in my own way, I become a big scholar." This is going on. If you have got your philosophy, you can speak. Everyone is free. Why you should take Bhagavad-gītā and distort it? Kṛṣṇa never meant that "In future Gandhi will come," or "Dr. Radhakrishnan will come, and he will explain My ideas." What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa was a foolish person that he left it for Gandhi for distortion? He could not explain Himself that Kurukṣetra means this body? Gandhi has to interpret? Do you think it is right?

Guest (5) (Indian man): Not at all.

Prabhupāda: But this is going on. What right you have got to interpret? If Kurukṣetra means body, Kṛṣṇa would have explained that. Was He not learned? He left it for Gandhi. Just see. He left it for Tilak. How harmful these interpretations are. That is going on. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         January 24, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     479328

Prabhupāda: Gurukṛpa Mahārāja, what is the benefit of this modern education?

Gurukṛpa: No benefit. It makes them an ass.

Prabhupāda: Making them demons, that's all.

Gurukṛpa: They become puffed-up, thinking they know something. They don't know anything.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, modern educated youths, they are not inclined to come to the farm. So they're giving up their own father's property, farm. They do not come back from city. The farmers' children go to cities for education, and after so-called education the rascals do not come. Here also and in your country also, America and... They want city life and enjoy restaurant and prostitute.

Satsvarūpa: There is a song, "How are you going to keep them on the farm after they've seen Paris?" They don't want to go back.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So much land sitting. Huge land is lying vacant, and they are complaining, "Orissa is poor. Please..." Why poor? Why don't you work? You must remain poor. You do not produce your food. Kuyoginaṁ kuśam upaiti lakṣmiṇī.(?) If you work hard, Lakṣmī will come. Our institution is working so hard, all our devotees. Therefore we have no scarcity. We are not bābājīs, taking a mala and smoking bidi. "I do not go beyond Vṛndāvana." Rascal, loitering and associating with so many women, and they have become puffed-up, paramahaṁsas, Rūpa Gosvāmī, imitation Rūpa Gosvāmī. Only a loincloth of Rūpa Gosvāmī. No education, no book writing, no going out of Vṛndāvana, begging. And therefore government's capturing them and giving this injection. What is that? Sterilization. Yes, just see. So many illegal children are born by these women. Bhajana. Bhajana kara. One bābājī has at least three women, four women. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Like monkeys.

Prabhupāda: Like monkeys, yes. Markaṭa-vairāgya. (break) And they are living very rich. And if you make big, big cities without industry, cities cannot be maintained. You'll require so many instruments, machine. That means you require (indistinct). If you require food, there is no need of industry.

Satsvarūpa: I remember in school seeing films of India, and they would say, "This is very backward. They're living as they used to live hundreds of years ago by using the ox and the plow."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have, hundred years after, we have learned how to kill ox and bulls. That is your advancement. And kill your own children also. Rascal civilization. They say "primitive." I was talking with a priest in Australia. So he said, "This civilization you are suggesting, this is primitive." Do they call it primitive?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And what is the wrong with the primitive?

Satsvarūpa: They think it's shocking that the way they used to live hundreds of years ago, they're still living. But in America...

Prabhupāda: So what improvement you have done, rascal?

Satsvarūpa: Motorcars, roads, buildings.

Prabhupāda: So what is benefit of motorcar?

Satsvarūpa: No benefit.

Prabhupāda: Motorcar benefit means you have to start big, big industries and neglect farming.

Gurukṛpa: In America they can say, "We have enough food. We have no shortage."

Prabhupāda: We are not thinking "We have." We are thinking how the human society is having.

Satsvarūpa: Well, they say "Let everyone help himself. We're taking care of ourselves."

Prabhupāda: But why not you? What is your humanity?

Gurukṛpa: So they say, "We work hard, and then they, they sit back."

Prabhupāda: So why do you make...? Who...? Who do you mean by "we"? It is, everything, belonging to Kṛṣṇa. You have plundered Kṛṣṇa's property. You won't allow others to come in. The Chinese, the Indians, they are congested. Why? What do you mean by "we"? It is your father's property? You have stolen Kṛṣṇa's property.

Gurukṛpa: One may say, "But I myself work hard. Should I support the man who is lazy, doing nothing? Some are lazy. Should I work hard?"

Prabhupāda: Well, that is... If you are humanitarian, you are working for humanity, and why don't you teach them? Why do you not give the opportunity. What is the missionary? You have got so many missionaries. Why don't you feed them by giving them opportunity. They want. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. That is Vaiṣṇava. Engage everything, everyone, to good work. That is missionary. "We, you..." There is no such question, "we." We combining together, that is "we." We are all Kṛṣṇa's sons. Harer nāma, harer nāma. Their whole philosophy is... Oh, it is very nice beach. All mango trees... Don't think in national terms. That is very heinous.

Satsvarūpa: There is one book on modern religions, and he discusses yourself, Your Divine Grace, on one page, and he says that your politics are naive. He said, "It is naive, too innocent to think that we can unite the world this way under God."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: "But it's very complex situation that has to be dealt with."

Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying United Nation, rascal? It may be complex, but we must try for it in the proper way. That is humanity. Why you are attempting United Nation? You know it is complex. But you do not know how to unite. This is my position. Unite on Kṛṣṇa center. Then you'll be successful. You are already trying for uniting, unity, but you do not know how to unite.

Satsvarūpa: Just like you say there has to be a universal center.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: So if it's complex, at least we have to start with a universal center.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can. We... It is already there, United Nation Organization, UNO. So take the ideas. Why you are thinking of... What is that? WHO. World Organization or..., health?

Hari-śauri: World Health Organization.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Why you are trying for? Simply make a show? You are thinking already, but you do not know. Your world is your father, mother, and two sisters, that's all. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke svā-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. That is your world. A little family, a little community, that is your world. We do not think in that way. We include even the animals, trees, plants--brothers. That is our philosophy. We feel. When you cut a tree unnecessarily, we feel. This is our feeling. Unless there is absolute necessity, we do not wish to kill even a tree, what to speak of animals. When in our Bombay the coconut trees were being cut, I was feeling actually: "Why unnecessarily the coconut trees...?" You cannot give anyone life, so how, what is living, you can kill? It may be tree or animal or plant. You cannot give him life. So you have to suffer for this.

Gargamuni: Can we go inside?

Satsvarūpa: He said it was open in the morning.

Gargamuni: See if we can go inside. (break)

Prabhupāda: I was going to purchase ticket, Māgha Melā. He said "No, you don't go. That's it."

Bhāgavata: Then there is a lake over here and there is animals, birds, different types of birds.

Prabhupāda: Oh, zoological.

Bhāgavata: Yes, zoological. All types. And on this side they have the lions, tigers, bears... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...the forest and see actually. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. In Africa they're open.

Bhāgavata: Yes, in that national park in Nairobi.

Prabhupāda: The dog also knows that he's in the cage.

Bhāgavata: This is an Indian lion, from India. They have captured in India. And they also have African lions in here.

Gurukṛpa: Gujarati. It's a Gujarati.

Bhāgavata: From the forest of Katiwan.(?) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...monkey and cow. Rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa. Lion in the rajo-guṇa, monkey in the tamo-guṇa and cow in the sattva-guṇa.

Hari-śauri: What about the cows that they slaughter? Do they have to continue in a cow birth?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...of kṣatriya. Kṣatriya girls were not married so easily. There were so many competitors. You know Rukmiṇī, Rukmiṇī-haraṇa? Kṛṣṇa had to fight. Without fighting there was no marriage.

Hari-śauri: Now we have fighting after marriage. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Fight your wife, not with a lion. Poor woman, helpless, no father, no husband, no son. This is the civilization. They are forlorn, and they are forced to take the profession of... What is that? What is that advertisement? Forget... Upper and down...? What is that?

Hari-śauri: Topless, bottomless.

Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless.

Bhāgavata: They are forced to dancing halls.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Obliged. (break) ...no means, either welfare or topless dance. No father, no son, no husband. That's civilization? Rascal civilization. Huh? They should be given protection. This is Vedic civilization. Na strīya svātantryam arha... They must be given... Like children, they must be given protection. No protection. No father. Father-mother divorce. She is alone. Then no husband, no children. What is this civilization? Always helpless. I have seen so many old women feeling helpless. Yes. Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: They stick them in a home now.

Prabhupāda: Nothing. And on account of their helplessness, these rascals are enjoying: "Come here in the club, in the shop." Advertise, "Topless, bottomless." This is going on. And they claim to be civilized.

Hari-śauri: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: Hm? What does he say?

Bhāgavata: It is all right.

Hari-śauri: You said in that article in the BTG that women's liberation means that they get more exploited.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The giving them bluff that "You become liberated" means "We shall exploit you, young girls." This is the idea behind. Because the karmīs, they want sex, young girls, and they get energy to work. The Europeans, Americans, they work so hard. They get energy from new, new girls. This is psychology, Therefore they work like hogs and dogs. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Because the hog has no restriction, either mother, sister, or anyone, "Come on." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām..., kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. This civilization is for the hogs, to take energy by sex with mother, sister, and anyone, and work hard. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. I have not manufactured. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viò-bhujāṁ ye. And here is the civilization. Tapo divyam. Be brahmacārī, undergo austerities and rectify your, this conditioned life, birth and death. This is human civilization. Why you are under birth and death? One life remain brahmacārī and solve all the question. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. Teach them, these rascals--they are accusing, "brainwashing"--that this is civilization. It is not civilization to work hard like hogs and dogs and have sex enjoyment. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhāgavata: Here is a restaurant, and they're selling meat. On the one hand they're supposed to be protecting the animal, and on the other hand they are slaughtering and feeding people meat.

Prabhupāda: Protect the animal? This is not protecting. This is another slaughterhouse.

Hari-śauri: This is slow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Slow slaughter. They have no independence. (laughs) This is not protection.

Hari-śauri: This is prison.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is prison.

Prabhupāda: No, we shall go. The, what is called, evolution theory... Darwin said they take from monkey. But they do not know wherefrom the monkey comes. Does he give it chronologically?

Satsvarūpa: No. They say that both humans and monkeys come from a common ancestor. But they don't know what that is.

Prabhupāda: Who was your ancestor? (laughter) Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-vimśati. There is chronological order followed: first of all aquatics, then trees and plants, then insects, then reptiles, and in this way, then birds, then beasts, then human being. Which way? This? No.

Bhāgavata: If you want to go out, this way. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...it from Padma Purāṇa, and he has explained in his own imagination. The idea has been taken from Padma Purāṇa because the Padma Purāṇa, it is already there, evolution. Asatiṁ caturaṁś caiva. Eighty-four lakṣa means hundred thousand, 8,400,000. That is also given. Where is that, that Darwin's theory?

Bhāgavata: They have no number of species.

Prabhupāda: Imperfect idea. He wanted to credit himself. He has stolen the idea from Padma Purāṇa and wanted to explain in his own way, imagination, speculation.

Prabhupāda: Crocodile. (break) ...topless, is that freedom for the woman? The shop is open from ten to four a.m. I have seen the signboard in Texas. Is that freedom for the woman? They have no means of livelihood, and they come.

Satsvarūpa: But those women who advocate woman's liberation, they also say that that is not freedom for women, that the men are using the women.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, I have seen that if one woman is speaking... He (she) was sitting. I am going. "Oh, she has got a husband." Immediately I studied all this, this happening of her life. She was... She became very surprised that he's (she's), her friend had a husband.

Gurukṛpa: Thing is that the marriages are simply based on sex. Therefore the marriages don't last long.

Prabhupāda: That means they want permanent husband. That is their heart's desire, but no husband. Is that civilization? And here the father's duty is that "Before she attains puberty, let me find out husband, suitable." This is civilization. "And she was under my care, I give in charity to a suitable boy: 'My dear boy, you take charge of this girl. I give you some dowry and decorate that girl. Be happy.' "

Satsvarūpa: They criticize this in ISKCON, that the leaders pick out husband and wife.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Satsvarūpa: And that they're not allowed to mix freely. They say, "Well how do you know who you want to marry unless you can mix with that person?"

Prabhupāda: There is no question of "how do you want?" You require, and the parents is the best selector. It is not the question, "How do you like?" It is the guardians' duty to find out a suitable husband or a suitable wife. Nowadays the boys and girls, they do not take parents' guidance, and they are not happy.

Hari-śauri: The thing is the parents are not qualified to give any guidance any more either.

Prabhupāda: Qualified, that is not very difficult. For the girl, find out a boy who is hard worker or a little educated. Bas. That's all. That was the selection. Then fortune. You give a daughter under the care of the boy who can work hard. That's all. They then will earn their livelihood. Even there is no education, a hard worker will do. A boy, as soon as has got the sense that "I have got a wife to maintain," he'll work. That is impetus to give him to work for the family. And if a boy gets wife or woman without any hard working, they why he should marry? And if he has got responsibility that "I have to maintain my wife; then I can enjoy," then he becomes responsible. Wooden bridge?

Gurukṛpa: That is like Australia. That is Australia.

Prabhupāda: Australia?

Gurukṛpa: Yes, the whole country is...

Prabhupāda: Wooden bridge.

Gurukṛpa: Roads like this. Just in Melbourne and Sydney, nice roads. I think I saw better roads in India. I was very surprised.

Prabhupāda: Thing is they do not know engineering. They have no business. (break)

Satsvarūpa: The modern young person thinks, "I don't want someone to tell me the truth. I don't want someone to pick out who my husband or wife is. I want to be free to experiment and find out for myself. Then I'll know."

Prabhupāda: But where is your freedom?

Satsvarūpa: That I don't have someone to tell me what to do. I will learn by my own experience.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you go to school? Huh?

Satsvarūpa: Well, nowadays school also, they don't think that the professor is like their guru.

Prabhupāda: After all, the parents send the children to school to learn. Why not freedom?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. That's a good argument.

Prabhupāda: When you go in your childhood on the street, why the father does not give you freedom? You'll... You get freedom to die, and the parents takes your freedom to save. So which is better, to die or to be saved?

Satsvarūpa: To be saved.

Prabhupāda: So then?

Satsvarūpa: But I need their help when I'm a child. But when I'm sixteen years old, then I...

Prabhupāda: But after all, you had no freedom. Similarly, you are still child because you are speaking like a child.

Hari-śauri: Their conception of freedom is very limited.

Prabhupāda: There is no freedom. Where is freedom? You have to die. Where is your freedom? You don't like to die. But you have to die.

Gurukṛpa: They used to have a slogan, all the hippies: "When I have to die, I'm the one that has to die. So let me live my life the way I want to."

Prabhupāda: What is that? "When I have to die"?

Gurukṛpa: "I have to experience it. Therefore let me live the way I want to. When it's time for me to die, it's my death."

Prabhupāda: But when there is warning of death, why do you fly? You have to die, but when there is warning of death, why you fly? (laughter) Rascal, why you fly? That means you do not want to die. You give this slogan, that "When there is warning of death, why do you fly? You have to die." (laughter) It is a rascal civilization, that's all. Western civilization is a rascal civilization. I do not take they are civilized even. No. White aborigines. That's all. (break) Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. In other countries there is no civilization. In India there is civilization. Just you become civilized and distribute this knowledge.

bhārata bhūmite haile manuṣya janma jāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that para upakara. They do not know what is civilization. Such broader idea of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He never said that "Sit down in Vṛndāvana and become a bābājī." Kara para upakara. That is saìkīrtana.

abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu katiha mohan

brahmāra durlabha prema nitāi kare dāna

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Karuṇā-sindhu, the ocean of mercy, it was blocked. Let it be opened, and distribute throughout the whole world. So if you work vigorously, this is an epoch-making history, how real culture is being distributed for the benefit of the whole human society. They'll realize. What do you think? Eh?

 

Room Conversation                               January 24, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                       479508

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every year, the new batches of students, and you'll have opportunities of selling a new set. If the university professors cooperate--they must; they should--then we'll have every year a large number of books sold to the...

Hari-śauri: If you bring more small books... Like you were going to do Padma Purāṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we can give.

Hari-śauri: ...and the Upaniṣads, like that. Those will also be very...

Prabhupāda: That will be nice. I was training, but they have not become so expert. As I am doing Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad..., they could do Padma Purāṇa, Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa in the same way, but our students are not so expert.

Hari-śauri: And no one can give the purports that you give.

Prabhupāda: A little progress, they think they have become a great scholar--"Now we are for bhajana. Here there is no chance of bhajana. Let us go and bhajana." Means... Ei chure paka. Ei chure means a unripe jackfruit. Unripe jackfruit has become yellow. Means a stunted growth. You know stunted growth?

Satsvarūpa: Something stops growing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Growth is not there, like a dwarf, and he has become fifty years old. Vidvatvaṁ vayasaṁ-vinā... No, vayasaṁ vidvatvaṁ vinā.

                                                                                                                                                                        479535

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "When our men will be sahajiyā, he will be more dangerous."

Satsvarūpa: Our own men.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Öhākura, he said that "When our men will be sahajiyā, oh, they'll be more dangerous." So our men are becoming, some of them, sahajiyās. This very word he said, that "When our men will be sahajiyās he'll be more dangerous."

                                                                                                                                                                        479545

Satsvarūpa: You say now the standing orders, the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, after the universities, should be sold in every home. So far, no one has learned how to do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: That remains to be done.

Prabhupāda: Every gentleman should have a valuable library of these. That we want. Then our preaching is successful.

Hari-śauri: Once people recognize the worth of spiritual literature, then they'll purchase. Just like they sell these Encyclopedia Brittanicas from house to house.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri:...on the basis, "You've got so many children. They need this knowledge and education for when they go to school." So they purchase whole volumes.

Prabhupāda: Introducing as study book in higher colleges, universities, text book, then it will be... What is the use, a so-called scholar having a ṣaṭ-sandarbha? And this has been failure... Our one Godbrother, he did. Simply he printed. It was not sold, and then it was mishandled, distributed like anything.

Hari-śauri: What was that?

Prabhupāda: That Ananta Vāsudeva, my Godbrother, he printed so many Gosvāmī literatures, but it was not successful.

Satsvarūpa: Even when I went to the convention in America, one convention, this woman professor, they were all excited. She has just translated Vidagdha-mādhava. But she had no understanding. She was talking about what the rasa is and Rādhārāṇī, but it's all like psychology or sex literature.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They say, "Sex religion. Religious perfection through sex." That is their idea. That Rajneesh is doing that. Rajneesh?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: And Freud also.

Hari-śauri: All of them.

Prabhupāda: Hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this sex is the more dangerous than drinking poison for person who are going to advance in spiritual understanding. And they are talking--"Sex is the way of perfection." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana apy asādhu. If one takes poison, that is criminal. So this sex indulgence in devotional life is more dangerous than poison-taking, criminality. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... But the sahajiyās, they are taking that through sex their life... What Gosvāmī? Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa. Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa, they read, and they say, "Oh, through sex one can achieve the highest." They publicly say in Vṛndāvana. "I am Kṛṣṇa, and parakīya rasa. You have to select one woman who is not your wife, kept wife, parakīya."

 

Prabhupada:…..And he was going to make experiment of the Muhammadan realization by eating...

Hari-śauri: Meat.

Prabhupāda: ...go-maṁsa, cow's flesh.

Hari-śauri: I think you said that he...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...was refused entry into some temple because of that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was such a rascal. He was actually impotent, and he could not have sex with his wife, and he addressed, "Oh, you are my mother." And these rascals took: "Oh, he is so advanced that he could see his wife as mother. Oh, self-realized. By worshiping Kali he has become so perfect, he sees everyone as mother." Such a rascal he was, and he is God. These things are going on. But I am speaking not my manufacture. I heard it from my Guru Mahārāja. He told me that these are these, like that. Not unauthorized. I don't speak anything which I have not heard from my Guru Mahārāja.

Hari-śauri: It's just so difficult to believe how these rascals could do it, I mean, pose themselves like that.

Prabhupāda: And when we were meeting, we had so many talks. One of these talks were that, (laughing) this. He told me that, Guru Mahārāja.

Hari-śauri: Complete loss of intelligence.

Prabhupāda: It is stated clearly, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jïānāḥ. Rascals are hṛta-jïānāḥ. They have no knowledge even.

Hari-śauri: Lusty desires within their heart.

Prabhupāda: Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jïānāḥ. For kāma... Just like one is lusty for sex, they are for false name. "I shall become God. People will adore me." This is their.... "And we shall bluff like this, by magic, word jugglery." This is the aim.

Hari-śauri: Simply cheating process.

Prabhupāda: No aim how to make people understand about God. They have no such, neither they do know personally. Their only aim is that "If I become a God-man, if I can bluff, jugglery of words and this magic and..., then I'll..." The same material thing, pratiṣṭha. As ordinary people, they are working so hard for some material gain, material reputation, these people are like that, in a different manner. This Satya Sai Baba, this Vivekananda, this, all of them, like that. They want some material position, misusing their mediocre knowledge. That's all.

 

Morning Walk                                                 January 25, 1977, Puri                                                            479750

Prabhupāda: Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ. The two envious... (break) But this sarpaḥ, snake, can be charmed by herbs and mantra, but the man, envious, cannot be. Therefore he's more dangerous than the snake. Khalaḥ kena nivāryate.

Evening Conversation                                     January 25, 1977, Purī                                                            479840

Satsvarūpa: (reading) "The real qualification is to become a devotee of the Lord, and gradually all the good qualities worthy of possession developed. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was a mahā-bhāgavata, or a first-class devotee, who was not only well versed in the science of devotion but also able to convert others to become devotees by his transcendental instructions. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was, therefore, a devotee of the first order, and thus he used to consult great sages and learned brāhmaṇas who could advise him by the śāstras how to execute the state administration."

Prabhupāda: So who is going to do that? All these... All rogues and thieves, drunkards and fourth-class character, meat-eaters, they are the government. How you can expect good government for the benefit of the people? This is Kali-yuga. Unfortunately we have on the heads of government all men of the low-grade character. You... Your President?

 

Satsvarūpa: "Such great kings were more responsible than modern elected executive heads because they obliged the great authorities by following their instructions left in Vedic literatures. There was no need to enact daily a new legislative bill by impractical fools and to alter it again and again conveniently to serve some purpose. The rules and regulations were already set forth by great sages like Manu, Yājïavalkya, Parāśara, and other liberated sages, and the enactments were all suitable for all ages and all places. Therefore the rules and regulations were standard and without flaw or defect. Kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit had their council of advisors and all..."

Prabhupāda: Our things on the veranda can be kept inside. Because they are here, somebody may... So many men are coming and going.

Satsvarūpa: "All the members of the council were either great sages or brāhmaṇas of the first order. They did not accept any salary, nor had they any necessity for such salaries. The state would get the best advice without expenditure. They were themselves sama-darśī, equal to everyone, both man and animals. They would not advise the king to give protection to the man and instruct him to kill the poor animals. Such council members were not fools or representatives to compose a fool's paradise. They were all self-realized souls, and they knew perfectly well how all living beings in the state would be happy both in this life and the next. They were not concerned with the hedonistic philosophy of 'Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy.' They were philosophers in the real sense, and they knew well what is the mission of human life. Under all these obligations, the advisory council of the king would give correct directions, and the king or executive head, being himself a qualified devotee of the Lord, would scrutinizingly follow them for the welfare of the state. The state in the days of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira or Mahārāja Parīkṣit was a welfare state in the real sense of the term, because no one was unhappy in that state, be he man or animal. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was an ideal king for the welfare state of the world."(text 1, Ch. 16, First Canto Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Continues to read text two and purport with no comment from Śrīla Prabhupāda) Text 3:

ājahārāśva-medhāṁs trīn

gaìgāyāṁ bhūri-dakṣiṇān

śāradvataṁ guruṁ kṛtvā

devā yatrākṣi-gocarāḥ

Translation: "Mahārāja Parīkṣit, after having selected Kṛpācārya for guidance as his spiritual master, performed three horse sacrifices on the banks of the Ganges. These were executed with sufficient rewards for the attendants. And at these sacrifices, even the common man could see demigods." Purport: "It appears from this verse that interplanetary travel by the denizens of higher planets is easy. In many statements in Bhāgavatam we have observed that the demigods from heaven used to visit this earth to attend sacrifices performed by influential kings and emperors. Herein also we find that during the time of the horse sacrifice ceremony of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the demigods from other planets were visible even for the common man due to the sacrificial ceremony. The demigods are not generally visible to common men as the Lord is not visible. But as the Lord also by His causeless mercy descends to be visible to the common man..."

Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. They want to see.

Nanda-kumāra: Would you like this pillow, Śrīla Prabhupāda, behind your back?

Satsvarūpa: It is very weak argument to say, "Something doesn't exist because I don't see it."

Prabhupāda: It is childish.

Satsvarūpa: But they can say, "Neither is it a proof that it does exist."

Prabhupāda: How you can prove? You can hear only. There are many things which is beyond your sense perception. The example which I often give, that "Who is your father?" What is proof? The proof is the hearing from mother. That's all. You cannot have any other proof.

Satsvarūpa: "Although celestial beings are not visible to the naked eyes of the inhabitants of this earth, it was due to the influence of Mahārāja Parīkṣit that the demigods also agreed to be visible. The kings used to spend lavishly during such sacrifices as the cloud distributes rains. A cloud is nothing but another form of water, or, in other words, the waters of the earth transform into clouds. Similarly, the charity made by the kings in such sacrifices are but another form of the taxes collected from the citizens. But as the rains fall down very lavishly and appear to be more than necessary, the charity made by such kings also seems to be more than what the citizen needs. Satisfied citizens will never organize agitation against the king, and thus there was no need of changing the monarchial state. Even for a king like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira there was needed a spiritual master for guidance. Without such guidance one cannot make progress in spiritual life. The spiritual master must be bona fide, and one who wants to have self-realization must approach and take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master to achieve real success.

(text 4)

nijagrāhaujasā vīraḥ

kaliṁ digvijaye kvacit

nṛpa-liìga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ

ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā

(translation) "Once when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on his way to conquer the world, he saw the master of Kali-yuga, who was lower than a śūdra, disguised as a king and hurting the legs of a cow and bull. The King at once caught hold of him to deal sufficient punishment." (purport) "The purpose of a king's going out to conquer the world is not for self-aggrandizement. Mahārāja Parīkṣit went out to conquer the world after his ascendance on the throne, but this was not for the purpose of aggression on other states. He was the emperor of the world, and all small states were under his regime. His purpose in going out was to see how things were going on in terms of the godly state. The king, being the representative of the Lord, has to execute the will of the Lord duly. There is no question of self-aggrandizement. Thus as soon as Mahārāja Parīkṣit saw that a lower-class man in the dress of a king was hurting the legs of a cow and bull..." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...there the injunction of the śāstra, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. Cow should be protected. Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa did not say chāgala-rakṣya or hog-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. So it is the duty of the king or the state or the government to give protection to the cows. This is śāstric injunction. But nowadays neither the state or government is giving protection to the cow. They are becoming implicated with so many problems. I heard that India again is not slaughtering cows. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...perception. That is experience. Why do you give on seeing only? By seeing one mango you cannot understand what quality it is, but you have to touch with your tongue. Therefore in chemical laboratory the characteristics are there: "This is the color. This is the taste. This is the reaction." So you have to gather experience like that, not by simply seeing. That... I gave the example. Now you take one egg. What is there? Some white and some yellow substance. So you make one egg with white and yellow and bring life. So what is the power of your seeing? A small egg. Take a small egg. The covering, some celluloid, within, some white substance, some yellow substance. Or make further analysis and give some chemicals of the same taste, same color, same characteristic--now bring life. But the same thing. You put under the feather of the chicken. Within five days it will bring life. So what is the credit of these rascal doctors, D.H.C.? That a small chicken is better than these D.H.C. Why don't you see practically?

Gargamuni: The chicken is simply sitting, and he is...

Prabhupāda: He is bringing life. What is the answer of these rascal scientists?

Satsvarūpa: No good answer. Bluff.

Prabhupāda: Challenge them like this, that "First of all do it. You are less than the chicken. Why you are claiming so much honor? We treat you, you are fig. You are less important than the chicken. Prove that you have got some power; then claim that you are scientist." Hm? Is that argument all right? What will be the counterargument?

Gurukṛpā: A sane man would accept.

Prabhupāda: They're all rascals. They do not know anything; still, they are claiming very high position.

Gurukṛpā: I heard one scientist on the airplane. There were three scientists sitting behind me, and they were speaking that they hope they are living in the year 2000. One man said, "I become so excited when I think how advanced we will be in the year 2000 that I just hope I do not die before then 'cause I want to see how everything will be then."

Satsvarūpa: By then they think they will be doing this, creating life.

Prabhupāda: That any insane man can say. Any crazy man can say. "Trust no future, however pleasant." "You are rascal. You are believing in the future. You have not show us, because in the past you could not do. There is no history. In the present you cannot do. So how shall I believe that in future you'll do?" So any rascal promises like that, so we take him as a rascal. That's all.

Satsvarūpa: What about our promise, in the future also, that you go to Kṛṣṇa in the future?

Prabhupāda: We have got proof. Kṛṣṇa says. We believe in Kṛṣṇa. You believe in some rascal; we believe in Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. So we believe that. That's all. We have got evidence. You have no evidence. You are simply suggesting in future you'll do. But we have got evidence.

Gargamuni: Sometimes they ask, "Show us somebody who's come."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gargamuni: "Show us someone who has come from there."

Prabhupāda: Many.

Gargamuni: "But we don't find any."

Prabhupāda: Many. It is in the śāstra. "He was formerly like this, and now he has become this." There are many.

Gargamuni: Well, that's in the śāstra. They say now we want...

Prabhupāda: But śāstra is the proof. Our proof is śāstra. Your proof is your śāstra. Did you go to the moon planet or you believe the newspapers? Have you gone?

Gargamuni: No.

Prabhupāda: Then if you can believe newspaper, why shall not believe in the Veda, Vedānta?

Gargamuni: No, but one man has come.

Prabhupāda: So one man... You have not done. You have no experience. So one man you believe authority.

Gurukṛpā: But we saw the television. They showed on the television.

Prabhupāda: Nobody. I asked this question to Professor Kotovsky, that "You believe Lenin; we believe Kṛṣṇa. Then where is the difference between philosophy?" Now it is to be judged whether Lenin is all right or Kṛṣṇa is all right. That is another thing. But the principle is there. "You believe in Lenin; we believe in Kṛṣṇa. The process is the same. So where is your improvement?"

Satsvarūpa: They say that theirs can be shown not just to a disciple but to the whole world in general, not just...

Prabhupāda: Nobody believes in Lenin. Then there would have been everyone Communist. You believe, a section. Then why there are two parties? You are not all in all. That is going on everywhere. How you can say that you are correct, I am not correct? The process is the same. Therefore Vivekananda has compromised, "Everyone is correct." Yato mata tato patha. There is no quarrel.

Gurukṛpā: Then they accuse us of being fanatical.

Prabhupāda: You are also fanatical. Why do you believe Lenin? You are fanatical in our eyes. You are worse than fanatical because we have got great other authorities--they believe Kṛṣṇa is God. You have created a section recently, but we have got evidences from thousands and thousands of years ago, authorities believing Kṛṣṇa. Our literatures are very old. Your literature recently made.

Gargamuni: Sometimes, though, they may agree philosophically about Kṛṣṇa, but then they will bring in Kṛṣṇa's controversial personal life. They always do this.

Prabhupāda: Personal life?

Gargamuni: They bring in about, always about the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa.

Gurukṛpā: They just did that recently in Honolulu.

Gargamuni: Philosophically they may agree. But then they will go and attack Kṛṣṇa's...

Gurukṛpā: Character.

Gargamuni: His character.

Prabhupāda: But that... Because...

Gargamuni: Even in India they do. They say, "Rāma, He was better."

Prabhupāda: But what do you know about Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? You do not know anything. You are not a devotee. You have to learn the science. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati. You are ordinary man. You cannot understand. Then one can criticize his father and mother also, that "My fa..." They do. Some rascal do that. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "My father has done harm to me. By lusty desire he gave me birth, and I am suffering." They say like that. So you can in that way, you criticize your father and mother. But that is not law. Law is father and mother should be respected. But you rascal, you can criticize your father. You are such a rascal.

Gargamuni: 'Cause in India that happens a lot. Especially...

Prabhupāda: No, then father, mother, should not be respected, because they indulged in sexual life and brought me into existence and I am suffering. Then there should be no respect of father and mother. And then this sex life should be stopped, and there is no need of big, big scientist, philosopher. Because this indulgence will bring so many big men, so it should be stopped. But Kṛṣṇa is the father. Why He should not have sex? Any father has got sex. So if you criticize Kṛṣṇa, then you must criticize your father first. But that is not the law of nature nor the law of the society. Law is different. Who will criticize his father? Any sane man? Will any sane man do that? So you are insane. So who is caring for your remark? You are insane.

Hari-śauri: They're just envious of Kṛṣṇa, anyway. They're envious because they want to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: That is the cause, that they're criticizing. They're envious.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. The envious man can say anything.

Gargamuni: That I notice when they say that. I can notice their envy.

Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa is being worshiped. Here is Jagannātha, Kṛṣṇa. Millions of people have come to worship. You are rascal. You may criticize. It doesn't affect Kṛṣṇa's respectful position.

Gargamuni: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although Kṛṣṇa's life may have been controversial, still, He was very strict sannyāsī.

Prabhupāda: He never criticized Kṛṣṇa. Rather, He was enjoying Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs.

Gurukṛpā: Ramya kaścid upāsanā varga...(?)

Prabhupāda: So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, not you.

Satsvarūpa: And Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is the... Kṛṣṇa must have everything. Otherwise how He is God? God's definition is that everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ. He's God, the original source of anything. Anything and everything. Then He's God. So if sex life is not in Kṛṣṇa, then wherefrom it comes? Does it drop from the sky? You rascal, you do not know the science.

Hari-śauri: And with Kṛṣṇa's sex there's no inebrieties.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: When Kṛṣṇa has sex life there's no inebrieties. There's no abortion and contraception. With his sex life there's so many bad things.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, wherefrom the sex life comes if it is not in God? You make God impotent. But we do not make. Why He should be impotent? Then He's imperfect. If He's not potent, then He's imperfect, and God is all-perfect.

Satsvarūpa: They take it that this is an example of anthropomorphic, that we are saying...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.

Satsvarūpa: "God has sex."

Prabhupāda: They are luscious(?) that... (break) Just like a tuberculosis patient. To him doctor says that "You don't have sex life. That will bring your death." Does it mean sex life is bad? The tuberculosis person, for him it is bad, not for the sane man, not for the healthy man. So when sex life is advised to..., forbidden, that is for the diseased condition. But who is never diseased--he is perfect--for him there is no forbidding of sex life. So you do not understand that in this material condition you are suffering only. You have no brain. Therefore morality, immorality, good, bad, there are so many things. But when one is perfect, healthy, for him all the activities of life is perfect. Just like a physician advised me, "You don't take salt." Does it mean salt is bad? I am in a particular condition of this kidney trouble or liver trouble. For me salt is bad. But does it mean salt bad?

Gurukṛpā: No. It's very good.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, sex life for you is bad, not for Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa like you, mūòha.

Gargamuni: Yes. They try to equate themselves.

Gurukṛpā: Sex-monger

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are taking Kṛṣṇa on your level. You are such a rascal. You do not know Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddh..., yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. You are taking Him on your level. Therefore you are trying to criticize Him. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is your ignorance. What is food for one is poison for others. So for you it is poison, not for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is God. He has everything. He can use everything. That is God. He is not restricted by anyone. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Who can restrict Him? Then He's not God. If by a third-class man like you He's restricted of His sex life, then He's not God. He becomes under your control. But Kṛṣṇa is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. He's the supreme controller. How He can be controlled by your so-called goodness and badness? So the conclusion is you do not know Kṛṣṇa. You want to bring Kṛṣṇa in your level of understanding, and that is your foolishness. So we don't care for the fools like you. This is our conclusion. Avajānanti... That is replied. Avajānanti māṁ mūòhāḥ: "Rascals, fools, they criticize Me, thinks Me that I am as good as human being." Mānusīṁ janma. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "The rascals do not know what is My actual position." So you have to preach in that way.

Gargamuni: I have found sometimes when going to the offices that these people, these businessmen in India, they have become so offensive because they always try to attack Kṛṣṇa's activities more than anybody else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise where is the need of preaching? If you expect everyone is in favor of Kṛṣṇa, then where is the need of pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Gargamuni: In the West we can discuss philosophy with people. They never try to attack Kṛṣṇa's...

Gurukṛpā: Now they are attacking, because they have gotten your books. (Prabhupāda laughs) Even the Christians, they have read your books. And they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa did this. Kṛṣṇa did that."

Prabhupāda: He must do it because He's God. You do not... You have no conception. You explain that if there is no such things, then wherefrom it has come? God is the origin. In the Bible also it is said, "God said 'Let there be creation.' " So in the creation there are so many things. So therefore everything comes from God. That is Vedānta philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So why do you say, "Your God is like this"? God has everything. Otherwise how He's God? There is no meaning of God if He is deficient in something. But you do not know.

Satsvarūpa: They say He should be exemplary. God should be exemplary.

Prabhupāda: No. God is not bound to prove His example character to you. You are a rascal.

Satsvarūpa: Then how will I know what to follow?

Prabhupāda: You learn! You come to me. I'll teach you and beat you with shoes and teach you. (laughter) Come to me. Why I am here? You come! I shall beat you with shoes and teach you. Then you'll learn. You require some beating with shoes. You are a bad student. So I'll do that. "Come on." Yes, I keep always my shoes for my bad students.

Gurukṛpā: You can beat me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'd like that.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. A student who is more chastised is advanced. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "My spiritual master saw Me a grand fool. Therefore he has chastised Me." That is the position. The more we remain a grand fool, then more we may advance in spiritual consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. He was mūrkha?

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing they're doing against us more and more in the West is taking the testimony of an ex-disciple of yours, and he will say, "I was a Hare Kṛṣṇa..."

Prabhupāda: "Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Mahārāja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"

Gargamuni: We can say these men were excommunicated.

Prabhupāda: Ex means he's executed. That's all. He's finished.

Satsvarūpa: Why listen to his testimony? We can say, "Why listen to his testimony?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.

Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?

Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.

Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.

Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?

Hari-śauri: That's been going on for a long time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Hari-śauri: Even their own religion started like that. Jesus's..., one of his best disciples turned him in.

Gurukṛpā: Actually they are helping us to become Kṛṣṇa conscious by giving us an opportunity to preach about Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: It makes us serve with great..., more enthusiasm, even the demons.

Prabhupāda: That is the way of electricity. Electricity. Some thunder. That is electricity. The word is used, apratihatā. Pratihata means checking. When your devotional service will make progress in spite of checking, that is pure devotion. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati. And that is pure devotion. I was attacked by heart attack thrice. While on the ship, twice.

Gargamuni: On the ship twice? Oh.

Prabhupāda: Consecutively two days, attack. Actually I would have died on the ship before reaching your country. I could not understand that was heart attack. The pain was so severe, I thought, "I am now dying." And it was done two nights. And I was very much afraid whether on the third night, that "If this night also again some pain like that comes, then I'll die." But third night did not pain. It was suspended. It came in New York. And you know it, left side was paralyzed.

Gargamuni: Yes. Left side. We had to massage constantly.

Prabhupāda: No, they were arranging for some operation.

Gargamuni: Yes. Those doctors.

Prabhupāda: I told Kīrtanānanda, "Give me massage."

Gargamuni: I can remember. I wheeled you down for test.

Prabhupāda: The heart was also very painful still.

Gargamuni: They wanted to take some blood, and I had to stop them.

Prabhupāda: They were examining my brain. Then I thought, "I must go away." I told, "Doctor, I am all right. I can go."

Gargamuni: They wanted to do so many tests. They wanted to take also from spine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: They did that. They did give you that spine needle.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Never call doctor. Never give me hospital. Let me die peacefully if I am in trouble.

Gargamuni: Tīrtha Mahārāja had many doctors.

Prabhupāda: He has suffered too much. When I was in Los Angeles after coming back from India, in that black quarter, do you remember? No.

Gargamuni: Black order?

Prabhupāda: Black quarter.

Gargamuni: Oh. That was on West Pico Boulevard? That storefront?

Prabhupāda: Our temple was...

Gargamuni: West Pico Boulevard, right. I know that place. Yes. I was there. Yes, right, when you came back.

Prabhupāda: Before our La Cienega...

Gargamuni: Yes. It was in the black quarter. I can remember.

Prabhupāda: I was continuing my disease up to there.

Gargamuni: And you had one house near?

Prabhupāda: Many houses. I was not sleeping at night, and there was some sound, "gongongongon," in my ear. So long the body will be there, there will be so many troubles. And Kṛṣṇa has advised that "They will come and go. Don't care for them. That's all." Āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata.

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyino 'nityās

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

So bodily, mental, by enemies, so many impediments will come. What can be done? We have to tolerate. That is material world. We cannot expect smooth, very happy. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa advising Arjuna, what to speak of us. What we are in comparison to Arjuna. He's His personal friend, talking with Him. He said, tāṁs titikṣasva. Kṛṣṇa never said, "I have made some magic. You'll have no failure," like that. Tāṁs titikṣasva. "You just try to tolerate." That's all. He never gave him any tablet. (chuckling) He taught that... So we have to do that. As the modern gurus says that "I'll give you some ash. There will be no trouble," Kṛṣṇa did He so? He said, "No, tolerate." That's all. He could have said, "I'll give you some ash." "You are ass; I'll give you some ash." (laughter) Neither Arjuna asked also, that "Why You are asking me to fight? Give me some ash. I'll throw." He was not such a fool that he asked some magic from Kṛṣṇa and kill his enemies. Actually he fought. This is Bhagavad-gītā. So face things as they are and depend on Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. We must go on with our duty. Don't expect any ash, miracle, magic. So what is...? You have got sleeping place?

Gargamuni: Well, we have the beach. No, we have two rooms. Until seven o'clock in the morning we can use these two rooms. So our men can stay. Some will sleep in the van. I will sleep in the van.

Prabhupāda: In some car? In the car? In the car? In my car?

Gargamuni: No, no. No one is sleeping there.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then why not sleep, someone, some two?

Gargamuni: No, it's not very... It's not long enough. We are big.

Gurukṛpā: We have enough place without.

Gargamuni: In the summer here we park... You know where I took you on the other side? We brought our vans there and we slept right on the sand. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Beach. Very nice. Summer it is nice.

Gargamuni: Nice breeze all night.

Prabhupāda: Very nice sleep.

Gargamuni: Yes. Fresh. Right? You were there.

Gurukṛpā: Yes. I was there.

Devotee: We slept outside, under the stars. We cooked out there. We cooked outside.

Prabhupāda: In villages eighty percent, ninety percent people, they sleep outside during summer.

Gargamuni: But here there's no... There was no mosquitoes.

Prabhupāda: Because the wind is strong.

Gargamuni: Yes. Very strong. And just a light cādara. A light cādara and that's all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In village also. In summer, night is rather pleasant.

Gargamuni: Yes. Because there is breeze. Chandigarh we were there and Saharanpur. We were sleeping...

Prabhupāda: You can sleep very comfortably in summer. And in the morning you'll feel fresh, refreshed, complete.

Gurukṛpā: I am sleeping comfortable any place.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that depends on practice.

Gurukṛpā: An expert in sleep.

Prabhupāda: Anything. Śarīra nā mahāśaya, yā saha mithaya saha (?) There is a Bengali proverb that the body is very nice. If you practice something, it will tolerate. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) And whatever plan he's making, it will be all frustrated. That is the whole history. Big, big emperor, big, big politicians, they have tried. Roman Empire, the Carthagian Empire, Greece Empire, Egyptian Empire, and Mogul Empire, British Empire--all frustrated. It will never be successful. For a few days, hundred, two hundred years or five hundred years, it may go on. So real plan is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything is successful. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. These rascals, on account of false prestigious position, trying to be happy without God... That is not possible. Throughout the history you study. So many rascals have tried. The Napoleon, the Hitler, the Gandhi, this, that. What they have achieved? Nothing. If we honestly study their lives and activities, what they have achieved? Hm? Do you think they have achieved anything?

Satsvarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: They simply wasted their time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply wasting time. Therefore this is the best service, to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness for the human society and send them back home, back to Godhead. This is the best service.

Gargamuni: And if anybody helps us, then he is also greatly benefited.

Prabhupāda: He is also... He becomes recognized by the master. "Oh, he is trying for this, what I want." Naturally he becomes immediately recognized, although he has no qualification. If he tries. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'--bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Śyāmasundara's daughter. She was preaching, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" They said, "No I have got no..." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching, simply if you say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him." Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. Three words: Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead; surrender unto Him; and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvatī, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, grown-up, advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa"--bas, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words. Not sophisticated, but he must also understand not blindly. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra, janma sārthaka kari'. He must also understand these three words perfectly. Then wherever he speaks, he'll be successful. Not that "For you I am speaking. I can do everything independently." No. I am also servant of Kṛṣṇa. Realized. This is realization.

Satsvarūpa: How does a preacher realize? How does a preacher come to realize?

Prabhupāda: He must know that he's servant.

Satsvarūpa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: By practically knowing he's a... Are you independent, anyone? Everyone is servant. He's serving his senses. That's all. He's servant. He's never master. But he has become the servant of māyā or senses. That's all. He has to change only; instead of becoming servant of māyā, be servant of Kṛṣṇa. Servant he is. Where he'll go? How he will become master? To remain a servant is his position. He cannot become master. That is false pride. As soon as he wants to be master, that is false pride. That is māyā. "So if I am servant, then I have to serve. So why shall I serve the senses' dictation? I will serve Kṛṣṇa, what He says." So he's self-realized immediately, within a second. Where is the difficulty to become self-realized? Hm? Is there any difficulty? He must know that "I am serving. I am never master. But serving the senses, that's all, whims of the senses in the name of independence." That is not possible. Very simple philosophy. One who understands, he's self-realized. And if he preaches, then he becomes recognized. On this principle we shall help everyone. "Come here. Stay with us nicely. Nicely you can. But serve Kṛṣṇa. We take responsibility." Organize in this way throughout the whole world. Give them shelter; give them food; give them cloth. That is the most benevolent welfare activity in the human society. So here people have generally tendency to come to the beach to enjoy. "All right, we shall give you a place. Come on. Stay here. You haven't got to pay anything for food or lodging. Simply attend ārati, classes. Then... For experiment, three days' period, you see."

Gargamuni: Anyone.

Prabhupāda: Anyone.

Satsvarūpa: Even those three days they have to attend the maìgala-ārati?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maìgala-ārati they must attend. It is not that sleeping, "gongongon," and taking free food, no.

Gargamuni: No. Even in Māyāpura we wake them up at four.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that must be. Why Māyāpura? Vṛndāvana, they are accustomed. Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra... This sleeping is the māyā's influence. It is stated in the... Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpeṇa saṁsthitaḥ.(?) The Devī, this material energy, has captured everyone, and she is there... The more one sleeps, that means he's under the control of māyā. And the more he is not sleeping, he's free from māyā. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over three things: nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating; and mating. These things are the clutches of māyā. More we have sex, more we have eating, more we have sleeping, that means I am entangled. The more we conquer over it, we are free. That we have to try. Whether I am in the clutches of māyā or not can be tested--whether I am sleeping more, whether I am eating more, whether I am more sexually inclined. He can test himself. And bhakti means vairāgya-vidyā, to conquer over these three things. So practice this. They are... To rise early in the morning and attend maìgala-ārati is compulsory. It is part of this education, spiritual education. And not to eat more than necessary. Then you'll not sleep more. You'll find, if you observe fast, you won't feel sleepy. Have you tested this?

Gargamuni: Yes. I can remember.

Prabhupāda: Therefore ekādaśī. One day or two days in the month he should practice fasting, and then he'll be able to conquer over these things. These are all practical. So we should practice ourself and teach others. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if he thinks that he's quite all right in this material atmosphere, then he's doomed. Mūòhaḥ nābhijānāti. That means aprāpya mām--without achieving Kṛṣṇa--nivartante--again he goes back--mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani--the cycle of birth and death. Take one birth, suffer, again take another body, again take another body, another body. There are 400..., eight million four hundred... That's all. Sometimes so-called happiness, he is born as demigod, sometimes as dog, sometimes as insect, sometimes as tree. What is this business? "I am eternal. Why shall I suffer this?" This is sense. They are simply trying how to become a hog, how to become a dog, or how to become a god. God you cannot become. You may have some partial happiness just like the demigods. They have got power. They have got high standard of living. But that does not mean the solution of the problem. Solution of problem means no more birth, no more death. That is solution. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. That is solution. And if he remains in the birth-and-death cycle, that is not solution of material problem. Who can understand this science? They have accepted birth and death. But birth they do not believe. They think accidentally it grows within the womb, a lump of matter, and at a certain stage there is life. This is their... Do they not think like that?

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Fetus. By sex there is some reaction of flesh and blood and something comes out.

Gargamuni: Chemical reaction.

Prabhupāda: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the body, the form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition of the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No... But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and therefore they are unhappy. Their primary problem, where to live, how to eat, how to cover--that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?

Satsvarūpa: Some people don't like to live in the community.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Some people, they don't want to join...

Prabhupāda: Community, if you don't, you independently live. But this is the principle.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. They can do that in their house. They can live in their house and do all that.

Prabhupāda: Wherever you live, this is the principle.

Gargamuni: There are many people who are doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Gargamuni: They are offering their food, they have...

Prabhupāda: There is no question. Community means to help one another. If you can help yourself, do it.

Satsvarūpa: But at least meet with us for training, for classes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is training. Community means I learn from you; you learn from the principles. But if you don't like community, you do it yourself. But this is opportunity. You learn it. Sādhu-saìga. By association of... And we must be sādhus. If we are also dogs and hogs, what they will learn?

Gargamuni: Rāmeśvara told me that in ISKCON mail order there are many people outside who are following. They are offering their food, having kīrtanas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. "Bibliography." Is it not? So-called scholar?

Satsvarūpa: Footnotes, bibliography.

Prabhupāda: Footnote scholar they are now.

Satsvarūpa: One professor, I showed him your book. He said, "This is not a scholarly book. It has no footnotes." His definition. Simply looked for the footnotes.

Gargamuni: I met one professor in Lucknow University. For his own self he purchased all of your books. And I asked him, "Can you help us to meet more professors in Lucknow University who also can take?" He said, "They are all debauch."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: "They are in the bar." He says they all go to the hotel. They get paid high salary. They go to the hotel, they drink and they have prostitute. He told me this.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gargamuni: I said, "Just see." And these are so-called big professors.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Authors of books. He said, "They will not purchase. But I think these are valuable. Therefore I am purchasing." He told me this.

Prabhupāda: This is the fact.

Gargamuni: So all of these men are nonsense. But people accept their...

Prabhupāda: So we have no business to print other books of Gosvāmī literature.

Satsvarūpa: To cater to them.

Prabhupāda: That is not required.

Gargamuni: They won't follow, anyway.

Prabhupāda: These two books, Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, if they actually read and assimilate, their life will be successful. So we want to organize widespread publicity of these books. They'll be benefited.

Satsvarupa: I think one important principle in this individual book-selling will be a science to find out of all the masses people, the liklier people...(end)

 

Room Conversation                                       January 26, 1977, Purī                                                              480078

Prabhupāda: ...but they will explain immediately. Explain immediately. Say so many things. One man becomes blind. They will explain, "This happened and, oh, that..." But why don't you replace it? This is going on.

Satsvarūpa: When there is a big earthquake, they will come out and say, "This happened..."

Prabhupāda: "This happened, this happened, this happened." And therefore in Bengal it is said, pāgale ki nā bale chāgale ki nā khāya: "The madman, what he does not say, and a goat, what he does not eat?"

Gurukṛpā: Madman?

Prabhupāda: What does he not say?

Satsvarūpa: He'll say anything.

Prabhupāda: He says anything nonsense. Everything they will immediately explain, "It is this." Why this color? "And this electron and..." What is called? Proton? No? What are the names?

Satsvarūpa: Electron, proton, neutron?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have got another invention. Die-N-E. What is called?

Gargamuni: DNA?

Prabhupāda: DNA. In explaining, they are very expert. And if you know what is that, then why don't you replace it? What is that DNA nonsense? Put it into use. In the classroom they'll make: "This DNA is going this way, that way..." Now, who has made this arrangement, exactly going in the same way? You cannot manufacture either DNA and the movements also. Actually it is very wonderful things are going.

Satsvarūpa: Any explanation except Kṛṣṇa. They give some alternative explanation than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is their aim: no God.

Satsvarūpa: Now these psychiatrists are doing that with our Hare Kṛṣṇa. They say, "When these people... They take to Hare Kṛṣṇa because of this, because of that, and when they chant this happens in their brain, and this is happening." They don't believe that it is anything transcendental.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They say that "There is a brain. There is a tissue. There is cerebrum. On account of, they are thinking spiritually. Otherwise if it is cut off, there will be no more opportunity." They'll do that, brain operation. And whatever nonsense they will do, we'll accept.

Gurukṛpā: They have electric.

Satsvarūpa: Electric shock.

Prabhupāda: Dangerous community. These scientists, the so-called, they are dangerous community. Now, if five ounce(?) sight(?) is there, "No, it should be operated. Then he will be cured." And actually it is happening. In the hospitals they make all kinds of experiment, and if you say, "No, why you are doing that? A patient is suffering," "We must execute our science. So long the life is there we shall try to save him." They say like that. They will go on with all nonsense activity, and if you want to stop them, they will say, "No, our science has got so..." They take in writing that "Whatever we shall do, you cannot object," hospital. It is a place of demons. And as soon as they get a patient who will not protest, they'll make it, they'll make it and operation. No medicine, simply operate.

Gurukṛpā: What they do now is... What they've been doing is they have all these pills, and they give them to people to experiment, to see what the reaction is.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is going on. Big, big patent medicine, they will explain scientifically and give to the doctor and make experiment, and they will go on making experiment. I know this. This is their business. They'll write, they will call for the medical students--they have learned new, new words--and they'll pay to make a literature with bombastic scientific word, and they'll prepare literature. This literature will be distributed and give their medicine, and they may pay them for false propaganda. This is going on to introduce new patent medicine. I know that. Simply water they will inject to get money. The patients have come, innocent, illiterate--"How want to be...? Do you want to be cured very quickly or little less?" He's a laborer. He says, "Yes, sir, if you cure me." "So then injection will be required." He has no disease, and they'll give some water injection, yes, and take fee. Because as soon as there is question injection, he'll charge at least four rupees, five rupees. He has no disease. They will inject water and take four, five rupees. In India I have seen.

Gurukṛpā: If you need... If you have one infection in America, you know what you need--some penicillin, something to kill the infection. But the doctor will have to make all sorts of experiments to tell you what you already know.

Prabhupāda: "You first of all give so much blood. So much give me, and then..."

Gurukṛpā: Yes. And charge you fifty dollars.

Prabhupāda: Regular business. It is very difficult to consult with a doctor.

Gurukṛpā: And I saw the dentist. He tried to ruin one of my tooth so he could do work on that also and make more money. He tried to damage the teeth.

Prabhupāda: Money is the only aim. And they will talk all nonsense and make experiment, especially in the Western countries. Here also they have got now money-making sight. Lawyers also. Any... I have seen in our relatives, big, big rich men. The brothers may sit down and make some... My father-in-law did that. They sat down, and they were two brothers, and divided his property and got two days. But those who are rascals, they go to lawyer and continually meeting--his man, his man. In this way the whole property is sold. And they get out with this. That's all. I have seen so many cases. Then the property division means there is nothing to divide. Everything is sold, and the money was taken by the lawyers as their fees. I have seen so many cases. These real estate men? Real estate? They also. So many times they complicated our men. You know that?

Satsvarūpa: The first time?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll promise... You have got five thousand dollars. They'll promise 100,000 dollars' property you'll get, and how it will be done, this scheme, that scheme... "We'll do this scheme, that..." Then they will take five thousand dollars from you, and they will say, "Now it is finished. Now bring more money." Then further made... That lawyer who was trying to give me a permanent visa?

Satsvarūpa: Yeah, some Greek name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fishlington or something like that.

Satsvarūpa: Mitralanti(?) or something.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So he was taking every fortnightly 150 dollars by telephone, and Rāyarāma, he was paying. He took about five hundred, six hundred dollars and did not do anything, simply extending the date. The lawyers will plunder. The government men will plunder. The physician will plunder. Ordinary dealing, they will plunder. The shopkeepers will plunder. The... And bank will say that "You take money. You pay your bills. We'll give you loan, we'll charge interest. And when you get your salary, then you have to deposit it in the bank." And they'll adjust. And again you are penniless. Again you take loan. The social arrangement is so made that you simply depend on loan. And to earn this money you'll have to go five hundred miles away from your home, early in the morning, in the car.

Gurukṛpā: And in the train.

Prabhupāda: Train also. So how you can be happy? This is their civilization. You study. I have studied in your country, everywhere. This is civilization.

Gurukṛpā: Our printing man from Dai Nippon... The printing man who was doing our book from Dai Nippon, he would come to the house at eight-thirty at night. And he lives... Every day he travels two hours to Dai Nippon in the morning and at night another two hours.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Many. Why Dai Nippon?

Gurukṛpā: But this was eight-thirty at night he came.

Prabhupāda: No, Bombay, Bombay, Calcutta.

Gurukṛpā: I asked him, "What time do you go to work?" He said, "At nine in the morning." I said, "But it is eight-thirty. You have been working now eleven hours." He said, "Well, after I leave here, I must go back to the office and finish my work. I will be finished at eleven tonight. Then I will go home. I will get home at one o'clock, and then I must get up at six in the morning to go to the office." So much tapasya.

Prabhupāda: There is a book, novel. The subject matter is that the man, when he goes out of home the child is sleeping. He has to rise four o'clock to prepare to take the six o'clock train. At that time his child is sleeping. And when he comes back at ten o'clock, the child is sleeping. So he does not know. So when he's grown up, on Sunday he's asking his mother, "Who is this man?" (laughs) This is the subject matter. They have written in a very... He is asking, "Who is this man?" When he was child, he did not see, neither inquired. Now, when he's grown up, on Sunday he sees that this man is very intimately talking with his mother. He... In this way...

Gurukṛpā: The poor man, his office is cheating him, and then his wife stays home and spends all his money and he is being cheated by her.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He comes, taking so much trouble for the wife. He will lie down with her from eleven at night up to three o'clock. For that, that is home. This is his home. And to maintain this home, he has to take so much trouble. And this is civilization. He does not think, "For this little happiness why I am here? Better to become a sannyāsī and live independently. Why I'm taking so much...?" No. And after working so hard, in old age if you ask permission from the wife, "I have done so much for you, for family. Now let me retire." "Eh? You'll retire? Then who will look after me?" The home member not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. You are working so hard--how you can be satisfied? And they find still insufficient income. They are not satisfied. But what is this home? To sense gratification. You are not serving this woman. Because this woman, as soon as she is not able to serve you by her sex, then there is divorce. Nobody's serving anybody, but everybody is serving his own senses. So actually the man is serving his own senses, uṣṭra. He's eating his own blood and thinking, "Thorn very palatable." He's eating thorn. What is his palatable? Cutting the tongue and blood is coming out, and when the thorn's chewed with this blood, it makes little taste. Blood has got taste. And he's thinking, "Thorn is very nice." Therefore they have been called as uṣṭra. Uṣṭra eats own, drinks or eats his own blood, and takes the thorn as very good. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-khara. These animals have been specially mentioned: dog; viò-varāha, means hog; uṣṭra; and khara means ass. How Bhāgavata has selected. (laughs) Śva means dog. Dog, after technical education, if he does not get a post where he can use this computer and other big, big..., he's a dog. He goes to a bank, "Sir, I am expert in this machine work. Can you give me a job?" "No, no. There is no vacancy." Then again he puts his tail, goes another, another. What is use, this? The big, big technologists, unless they get a suitable job, they're just like dog. Dog is loitering in the street, no food. So these men with all this high technological knowledge, if they do not get a proper master, they are nothing but dog. This is university education. So dog and hog. Hog means he can eat any nonsense thing, whole day working, if he gets sex. Never mind whether mother, sister or daughter or any. You see the hog's family. They are very much sexually inclined, without any discrimination, and eating stool. This is his life. You see nowadays this man, he's eating anything, the hog's intestine. What is that?

Gurukṛpā: Sausage.

Prabhupāda: Very good food. What is that? Hog intestine. Hog is eating stool, and the intestine is filled up with the stool, and they have to clear it out. When it is boiled there is a so bad smell. And that is very palatable. And by eating, as soon as he gets little strength, then sex without any discrimination. So hog. Śva-viò-varāha. And the uṣṭra. Uṣṭra I have already explained, camel. And then ass. Śva-viò-varāha-uṣṭra-khara. Khara means ass. Now, why ass is mentioned? Means he's work with the washerman, and he loads tons of cloth to take him to the ghāṭa where he'll wash, and give him a little grass. And he'll stand whole day. And again load and again come. He has no eyes to see that "Grass is everywhere, every... Why I am engaged in this washerman? Whose cloth? It is neither my cloth nor his." But he is working: "Oh, washerman is giving me grass."

Gurukṛpā: Everybody's ass.

Prabhupāda: So therefore these four animals have been mentioned: śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ. And he is, this class of men, selecting a leader by vote, democracy. So this class man intelligence, just see. And what class of man he will select? And how we desire to be happy by such elected men who is elected by these dog, hog, camel and asses? Are there any intelligent? And you expect good government, peaceful state and... And the śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Therefore the others, they went to see the lion. So dog, hog, camel, ass will... "Oh, he's a lion." But what is a lion? It is also an animal, big animal. That's all. Similarly, the so-called president and leader and Gandhi, they are also another animal, big animal. So does it mean an animal big and very powerful, he has got the human intelligence? This is civilization. And when you say the right thing, that human life is meant for understanding God and prepare for the next life--"brainwash." This is life. So remain like hog, dog, camel, and asses and go on, be engaged in politics and election--"Then you are right." And if you speak against this mode of civilization--"brainwash."

Satsvarūpa: They're especially upset when they see a young man join Hare Kṛṣṇa and give up--give up his career, give up going to the university.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: This is very destructive, they say...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: ...that he's giving all his possessions to the Society, giving up his career or job and his plans for the future. And then they want to stop us.

Bhāgavata: Even in India.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Why you say, speak India or in England? The human intelligence is the same. There is no change. They have made like this: "East," "West" and "England," and... The psychology is the same. The ass is the same. The camel is the same. The dog is the same. We are talking of these dogs. Do you think that in Europe the dog is different from Indian dog? (laughs) They have created another problem. But we take: "You are all dogs. Either you be Indian or England or German, you are, after all, after dog. Your mentality is dog." They have created that "Indian dog is better than the English dog" or "English dog is better than German." What is better? It is dog. You are doglike and hankering after some job in America and amongst Europeans. The Indians are all doing that, the same education. Recently for a post of five hundred men there were three lakhs of applications. This is education. And you'll find uneducated Indian, still he's independent. You will find in Calcutta especially we have seen. Yes. In the morning they'll purchase a bag of potato. Say, he invests twenty rupees. Nowadays he'll sit down in a corner and make two rupees' profit. He invests twenty rupees, and he gets twenty-two. He's satisfied, poor man. Then in the, say, ten to twelve he'll purchase some dāl. He'll go home to home. He'll make another two rupees' profit. In the evening he'll take some kerosene oil, and he'll sell. Evening everyone requires kerosene oil. He'll make another two rupees. So he's illiterate. He makes six rupees' profit, five rupees' profit, and if he can, ten rupees' profit. And takes some chana cho(?), some peanuts, sit down. In this way he's independently earning five to ten rupees. And educated? He's just like dog--"Give me job"--and unemployed and eating at the cost of father or welfare activities, welfare department, and moving like dog. Just see practically. The uneducated, he's earning because he knows that "If I go with application, what education I have got? Nobody will like me." He's hopeless in that way. "So let me try in my own way." He's earning ten rupees. And the other man, he's starving and taking help from the government, eating at the cost of father. This is education. Otherwise he is becoming hippie. Is that education? And in the Vedic system--education for the brāhmaṇa, how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bas, education, a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight: "Go. Fight. Go in the forest and kill animals and lie, try again, learn how to kill." Education. Vaiśya--"Go to the field. See how the plow is moved, how to give protection to the..." Finish education. And śūdra, he has to work under the order of the master. Master says, "Do this": he'll do it. So where is education required, high education, university degrees? And the government is maintaining big, big building, big, big professor, and the professor is... What is that? You told me? Gargamuni was telling.

Satsvarūpa: Oh. All debauches.

Prabhupāda: All debauch. Because they're getting fat salary. What they'll do? They do not know how to use it. Wine, woman, restaurant, dance--finish. So we have got very pessimistic view of this modern world. You may like or not. Simply spoiling time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply work without any profit of the human form of life. And nobody is interested to correct the procedure. If we try to correct them, they will accuse us that "These people are brainwashed. They deviating these young men from the general procedure of human civilization." Hm? What is this? Illicit sex stopped? Then where is life? This is life, if young boys and young girls mix freely and have sex, and as soon as she is pregnant, you go away, let her suffer, no responsibility. The poor girl, long before, father, mother divorce--no protector. And as soon as she selects somebody husband, and as soon as pregnancy, he goes away. And old age--there is no family, no son. Ninety-nine percent the woman class live like that. How hopelessly the old ladies are sitting down--only one cat, one dog, one television. The old men also like that, hopelessness. Or drinking or seeing the television. And a dog friend. Is that life? And we want to correct it--"brainwash."

Gurukṛpā: They are so... They have no brain to even understand this. You cannot talk to them.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to do. Otherwise there is no meaning of preacher. Most thankless task. We want to save them, and they accuse us. My Guru Mahārāja used to give that example: A boy is flying kite, and he's going like this. He's just come on the edge of the roof. He is going to fall down. And somebody says, "Hey! What are you doing this for?" (shouts:) "Why you are checking me? Oh, my kite is gone, gone. I have gone back." This is going on. If you want to save them, they will accuse you that "My kite-flying is disturbed. Don't do this." "And why you are. Why...? You'll fall down." "Never mind. That is my business. Why you are checking me?" This example was given by my Guru Mahārāja. You want to save him. Who is a gentleman who will not save him? He is falling down next moment. That is natural. But he is angry. "Why you have checked my kite-flying?" So it is a different type of civilization, a different style of life. If you want to introduce they will accuse you, so many, like madmen. And still we have to do. That is preaching. You cannot expect very smooth life in preaching.

 

Room Conversation                                       January 27, 1977, Puri                                                              480433

Prabhupāda: What is this scientist? The scientists are rascals. These are the proofs. They are trying to go to the moon planet, but they do not know what is this. So many stars are hanging on my head. What are they? They cannot give any perfect information. They do not know. Two things they do not know. What is the meaning of science, real two things. One thing, how life come into existence, and how this planetary system is existing. They do not know. What is value of their science? There are so many things they do not know.

Gurukṛpā: Everything.

Prabhupāda: Practically everything. But these two we challenge. We can challenge. They know. Therefore they want to bluff. They know that it is not possible for them to know. They know it perfectly well. It is not possible for their so-called science to understand what is the situation of this planetary system and what is the origin of life. They do not know. They admit. Two things unknown. Everything is unknown, but especially these two things. Simply speculate and bluff and... Mūòha. And we consider them as rascals. That's all. By taking information from Kṛṣṇa, we understand these are rascals. Duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ,bas.

Gurukṛpā: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that... We say, "They are rascals," and they say, "These are rascals, brainwashing." This is the position.

Hari-śauri: The demons and the demigods.

Prabhupāda: I say "These rascal scientists are brainwashing," and they say, "These rascal Kṛṣṇaś, they are brainwashing." (laughs) This is the position. But so far us, we have got some support and we have got authorities, and these rascals, they have no authority. They simply speculate. So even we are rascals, they are... Among these two rascals, we are better rascal, (laughs) not they are better. That's all.

Gargamuni: Therefore they need their brain washed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are convinced that we have got authorities. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He cannot cheat me. He is perfect. So whatever knowledge He gives, that is our position, Kṛṣṇa conscious. "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that's all." And that's a fact. But they do not take Kṛṣṇa as authority, but another rascal, Dr. Frog, he's authority. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: "Nobody is better authority than Me." And we see our gurus, they accept. So we are in safe side. Just like if a child takes information from his guru, mother, he's safe side. So we are in the safe side. They are not in the safe side. They are hovering, speculation. Speculation is no knowledge. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. And mental speculation means they will remain in ignorance because there is no knowledge. It is simply gymnastic of the mind. It is no knowledge.

Gurukṛpā: They usually argue that "Well, you see we have made so many big machines and done so many material wonders."

Prabhupāda: What is wonder? This is wonder for you, rascal. We see you are as good as dog. The dog with his four legs is running. He has no looseness. But your machine is now loose. Now you cannot go. This is your progress. A dog with four legs, he will immediately, immediately go, and now you have to wait. This is your progress, less than the dog. When there is dog race... We are going in the car, and dog is running after. We see sometimes. We see, "Oh, dog is running. You cannot have a car." Dog is free to run. You are not free to run, rascal. As soon as there is little looseness, dog will go hundred miles away from you. And you'll sit down here and cry. This is your progress. That race, you know? Tortoise?

Hari-śauri: The tortoise and the hare.

Prabhupāda: Tortoise and?

Satsvarūpa: Rabbit.

Prabhupāda: Rabbit. Yes.

Gurukṛpā: You know the story?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Your scientific knowledge, your car, means you are more dependent. Now, suppose you have to stay here. You had to, some very important business. Now whole thing is finished. But if you have calculated without having this car, then you would have done your duty. So the more material advancement means more you become dependent, more you become rascal. That is calculation by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. Jaòa-vidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, jīvake karaye gādhā, tomāra bhajane bādhā. Anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā, jīvake karaye gādhā. My business is that how to leave this material conditional life and become free. Now, with this so-called advancement of science I am becoming more and more attached. So I'll never get freedom. This is the result. Because I am trying in different way how to get, freedom. "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it. We shall do this." Gādhā, ass. You'll die trillions of times within millions of years, and he is expecting good result of his scientific... By the time, he'll become a banyan tree and stand there by nature's law, and he's expecting good result after millions of years. So gādhā, ass. Durāśaya. This has been described as durāśaya. He's expecting something, hoping something, will never be fulfilled. They calculate. "Millions of years we shall get how to make life." And the, an ordinary chicken, he is doing this within seven days. And these rascals will have to wait for millions of years and wait that a life is coming from the egg, and other rascals, set of rascals, they are accepting. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's statement is jīvake karaye gādhā. He's already an ass. He becomes a more ass, big ass. Anitya saṁsāre... More than. He's destined to change everything, anitya, everything nonpermanent, but he is illusioned--"Yes, we shall make it permanent." This is moha. Which he will never be able to do, he is expecting... "We shall do it." This is also called another logic, nyāya, bakāṇòa-nyāya. You have seen bakāṇòa-nyāya? Baka and aṇòa. One bull is going and his testicle hanging, and another duck, he is thinking, "It is a fish. It will drop, and I shall take it." This is practical. This is psych... You'll see a bull is going on and testicle hanging, and another duck is going after him. From this baka the word baka has come. Sometimes we say baka. This bakāṇòa-nyāya.

Gurukṛpā: Baka, crazy.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Crazy, yes. He does not know that it is his testicle. It will never drop, but he is thinking, "As soon as it... This is a fish. It will drop and big fish. (laughing) I shall eat it." Another nyāya is ajā-gala-stana. Those who have studied nyāya-śāstra... There are many such examples. Ajā-gala-stana. Sometimes a goat, they have got nipples.

Hari-śauri: Yes, on the neck.

Prabhupāda: And somebody is expecting milk from that nipple. Nature's study. Therefore knowledge is in India. There is no doubt. If you want to become perfect, you have to take knowledge from India, this Vedic literature. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that take, assimilate of the Vedic knowledge, and distribute it to the other parts of world. That is para-upakāra, real welfare activity. Because they are in darkness. What do they know, Western countries, about this knowledge? They think by this dog race... "A dog is running by four leg, and I am running by four-wheel car. I am advanced." That's all. That is Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. Moha, another illusion. Rascal, what you will do with this world, four-wheeling? You'll have to die like the dog. What you have done for this? You are very much proud. "The dog is running with four legs, and I have got a Rolls Royce car. I am so advanced." But, rascal, when the dog will die, you'll also die. In spite of four wheel, you'll die. What about that? What is your science says about that? Then he'll say, "Wait millions of years. We shall do that." This is science. When you put him in the corner--"Now, the dog, poor dog, will die, and you'll also die. What you have done for this?"--"No, wait. We shall do it." Is it not?

 

Room Conversation(2)                                   January 27, 1977, Puri                                                             480188

Prabhupāda: Politics means always fight between the kṣatriya and kṣatriya.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Still, actually, with this nonviolence method, could get them, I mean, get the Britishers out from India.

Prabhupāda: No, you are not... Violence method. It is the Subash Bose's organization.

Guest (1): Said... That has got some...

Prabhupāda: No, it is circumstantial. Circumstantially means the Britishers were not at all concerned about the non... They knew that "We..."

Guest (1): Had to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They knew that "We are not going. So long the nonviolence is there, we are safe." They were occasionally calling Gandhi and patting him: "Sir, why you are doing this? Let us compromise," because he knew that "So long nonviolence will continue, we are safe." But Subash Bose's protest was that "If you don't take to nonviolence, then these people are never going." That was the difference of opinion between Subash Bose and... So when he was taking the Congress in hand, Gandhi became so angry that Subash Bose, being elected President, Gandhi did not attend the Congress. So other workers, he requested Subash Bose that "You resign. Otherwise Gandhi will not."(?) So he resigned. He done right. And then he thought that "Unless I go out of India, I cannot do anything." Then he managed to go out of India, and Singapore, he... Indians with their help and Hitler's intervention, he organized this INA. And when the Britisher's saw that "Now the soldiers are joining national movement, then we cannot rule over," then they decided, "Let us make some compromise, and as much possible, do harm. Divide this India, Pakistan and India, and go away." This is fact.

Guest (1): Actually...

Prabhupāda: So they decided that because without soldiers and police, how they can rule over? And that, when they saw the soldiers are now joining Subash Bose and they are planning to come to India from Imphal, so they saw, "Now it is impossible." They are politicians. They could understand. So therefore the conclusion is: It is not Gandhi's nonviolence. It is Subash Bose's INA which compelled them to go away.

Guest (1): Bose had impact. Subash Bose had a great impact because, you see...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say, violent. When they were threatened with violence... They are not philosophers, that nonviolence will drive away. They are politicians. "You go on with your nonviolence movement." Gandhi did it for twenty years in Urban. What is that?

Pradyumna: Durban, South Africa?

Prabhupāda: Durban, Durban. No conclusion. The Indians are still segregated. I had been in South Africa. So from... What is that? Johannesburg. Johannesburg city, that Indian quarter, at least ten to fifteen miles away in a jungle. And there they have kept slaughterhouse.

Guest (1): Oh, near the Indian quarters.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Indians, whole night they are hearing the screaming of the animals. Means, purposefully they have created this disturbance, and Indians have got some sentiment of cow killing. And that screaming is going on whole night.

Guest (1): Whole night.

Prabhupāda: So that they may go away. This policy is still going on.

Guest (1): Ācchā? South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And any quarter, the Indians, they organize, and they say, "You go away now, that quarter." Still going on.

Guest (1): Still going on... (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: This is the position of Indian. So that part, Gandhi's movement there, that was a failure. No concession was given, still now. So these people they don't care about this nonviolence, satyāgraha.

Guest (1): But still, in America Martin Luther King saw nonviolence so greatly.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) That is also failure.

Pradyumna: I think they were more scared of the violence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: The blacks started groups in terrorism.

Prabhupāda: And then, then... (Bengali) It may be taken as a... Who cares.

Guest (1): This nonviolence is just put in the head of the others.

Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares for this non... (break) That is not, that India has no kṣatriya spirit. Very good kṣatriya spirit. But it was not organized. That is the difference of opinion between Gandhi and Subash. He wanted to organize it.

Guest (1): That's... But Gandhiji knew actually it's not possible to organize this violence in India, because the people are not of that nature.

Prabhupāda: No, everything has got. Just like Subash Bose organized outside.

Guest (1): Subash Bose was a very great organizer and a great politician.

Prabhupāda: He organized. He made compromise, some he made, this Hitler and Tojo, that "Whoever, Indian soldiers surrendered, you..."

Guest (1): They should go to INA.

Prabhupāda: INA. He made this... And the soldiers were voluntarily surrendering.

Guest (1): (Prabhupāda chuckling) Ah, many. No, Subash was, had got a great personality.

Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun(?) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun(?) from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this... They fight will continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will suffer for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jhinna." But this commission, this Patita Lalan(?). "No, no," said, "It is... Otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point, that "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jhinna in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.

Guest (1): That is a British policy.

Prabhupāda: They wanted this division.

Pradyumna: Gandhi was very much against division.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Division means that what remains India? Formerly India was India, Burma, Ceylon. They never divided, divided. They wanted that "Divide, divide, divide, and let this rascal have a small plot of land."

Guest (1): No, even they made it, all the states, independent.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to make their choice: "You can join either Pakistan or India."

Guest (1): Or remain independent also.

Prabhupāda: They wanted to make nil India. The Hyderabad state was given choice. Kashmir was given choice, whichever, Hindustan or Pakistan. That is still going on, the Kashmir.

Guest (1): Even in Orissa, small states just like Mariwan(?) and Venkana(?), they were independent before that time, till Sardar Patel(?) came in and asked them to...

Prabhupāda: Simply divide, divide, divide. Divide and rule, and divide and break. They have done always like that.

Guest (1): That proviso was the written rule. They made completely... Without that they cannot do it actually. They made such a big empire, they cannot do actually without divide-and-rule policy.

Prabhupāda: Bheda, bheda, bheda policy. This is called sandhyaṁ bheda. There are four policies.

Guest (1): That is Cāṇakya's nīti also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is bheda policy. That is going on in politics.

Guest (1): In America (Bengali) movement (Bengali) government (Bengali) support?

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Government nei, public.

Guest (1): (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Theoretically, if our principles are adopted by the American people in general, as my disciples have done, then their whole industrial structure will be broken.

Guest (1): Not actually. Don't affect so much because all are not going to be... Even in India it is not.

Prabhupāda: This is one thing. This is one thing, that... No, they are taking seriously. And another thing is that if the public opinion becomes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will get vote and they'll capture government, because it is republic. That is another point, another. The most important point is: these boys who come to me, they forget forever their families or father, mother. No family. That is their great shock.

Guest (2) (Indian man): No, what is that? That is nothing. We see...

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the principle, why they are opposing it. They are not these transcendental meditator that here going and coming home, and they are doing all same, because they have no restriction. But my students, as soon as they come to this, they are not, no more going home. They will not touch any food, yes, because they have seen there is a (indistinct).

Guest (1): (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Practically begin. Any boy who comes to me, he's lost forever to his family. In other religion there is no such thing.

Guest (1): No, they go back again and...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back, they do everything. They remain the same thing, simply rubberstamp. That's all. (Bengali) ...an actual fact. So they are seeing it is dangerous. They say, "It is epidemic. Brainwash." (Bengali) ...that once gone, this camp, Hare Kṛṣṇa camp, never return. Finished. (Bengali) ...compromise nei... Individually, family-wise, when the boy goes, he's gone forever. (Bengali) Hari-śauri! (Bengali) (Bengali) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam.

Guest (1): But without that, it is just like Hindu question.

Prabhupāda: They go to other temples also.

Guest (1): Many.

Prabhupāda: But pure Vaiṣṇava, they worship only Kṛṣṇa. But the Hindu dharma, they worship anyone--Gaṇeśa, Devī, and Lord Śiva and Sūrya. At least Śaìkarācārya limited within these five. Now their descendants, they say, "If you worship stool, that is also God." They say like that. You know that? Eh?

Pradyumna: Yeah, I've heard that.

Prabhupāda: They have gone so down, that "Even with your faith if your worship stool, that is God realization." (Bengali) Just become Prahlāda Mahārāja. Just go, persecution like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Then you talk of. You are not Prahlāda Mahārāja. You are ordinary person. Your business is mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. Kṛṣṇa never said, "He Prahlāda Mahārāja, God kambha(?), so you also worship kambha(?)." Never said, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. That is Gītā.

Guest (1): That's right, but Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: But Prahlāda Mahārāja never worshiped kambha.(?) But he knew that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So that vision is possible by Prahlāda Mahārāja, not by you or me.

Guest (1): No, that is, mean... Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: We cannot bring Prahlāda Mahārāja in ordinary thing.

Guest (1): No, that's true. That theory is: Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja underwent so much persecution. He was never disturbed, because he was confident that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection. Never mind." That is another position. Mahā-bhāgavata. We are kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs. We have to worship Deity.

arcāyām eva haraye

pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate

na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu

sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ

We are in the prākṛta stage. We cannot go to the stage of Prahlāda Mahārāja.

Guest (1): No, that is very difficult. That is very, very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Not difficult, but it requires elevation. So we should not imitate.

Guest (1): No, I mean desires... Just like your idol worship. Idol worship is not actually fruitless or anything. It's only to imagine God in it and just to have the concentration.

Prabhupāda: No, but idol worship is... These atheists, they say "idol worship," but we do not say. The... Here is Sākṣi-Gopāla. You know the story, Sākṣi-Gopāla? Two brāhmaṇas? So he never saw that He is idol. He saw Kṛṣṇa. So he said, "Kṛṣṇa, before You this man has promised. Now he's not declining. So please come and give witness." And that is Sākṣi-Gopāla. So for a devotee, no. There is no idol.

Guest (1): No idol. No, that idol is actually, they are planned to...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vṛndāvana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee... Just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannātha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannātha? They come to see real Jagannātha, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say, "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see--"Kṛṣṇa is here." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw--immediately fainted. So there are two visions. Therefore it is forbidden. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden... Oh, what is the Jagannātha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaiṣṇavas also they're seeing, "a American," "European." They are blind. They have no capacity to... Therefore śāstra says, "Don't think like that, nārakī. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only, that "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be..." So similarly, this is warning, "Don't do this." Therefore śāstra is there. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate: "Without śāstra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avāpno..., "he'll never be perfect." So śāstra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection. (aside) Hm. So that is I think scorching heat.

Hari-śauri: It's fairly hot, yes.

Prabhupāda: So better you... So give him little prasāda. So I am very glad to see you. (Bengali)

Guest (1): We're very glad actually. We're very obliged and very grateful to have your darśana.

Prabhupāda: You kindly... You are little interested. Organize public opinion: "Why these people are doing this injustice?"

Guest (1): No, that I'll do. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 January 27, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                   480293

(Pradyumna reading Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu in Sanskrit to Prabhupāda)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (corrects a word ) You first accept these ten different methods. So explain that.

Pradyumna: Guru-pādāśrayaḥ. "First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master." Tasmāt kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam. Tasmāt, "from him," kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam, "one should take kṛṣṇa-dīkṣā, initiation, and śikṣā."

Prabhupāda: Dīkṣā means divya-jïānaṁ kṣapayati iti dīkṣā.(?) Which explains the divya-jïāna, transcendental, that is dīkṣā. Di, divya, dīkṣāṇām. Dīkṣā. So divya-jïāna, transcendental knowledge... If you don't accept a spiritual master, how you'll get transcen... You'll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master. Read it.

Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam.

Prabhupāda: Śikṣaṇam. We have to learn. If you don't learn, how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Viśrambheṇa guroḥ sevā. "One should serve the guru, viśrambha..."

Prabhupāda: With great respect, with reverence and respect. Then?

Pradyumna: Sādhu-vartmānuvartanam.

Prabhupāda: And you must see that what you are doing, that is according to the principle which all other sādhus and devotees do. They have tilaka, and you say, "I have no tilaka." That is not sādhu-mārgānu. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. They have kaṇṭhi. You say, "I can avoid it." That is not sādhu-mārgānugamanam. So, from very beginning, if you disobey, then how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Sad-dharma-pṛcchā.

Prabhupāda: Sad-dharma-pṛcchā. You have to inquire from guru how to make progress. That is sad-dharma. Asad-dharma and sad-dharma. Sad gamaya, asato mā: "Don't remain in darkness. Make progress." Oṁ tat sat. So sad-dharma-pṛcchā. Then?

Pradyumna: Then bhogādi-tyāgaḥ kṛṣṇasya hetave.

Prabhupāda: Ah. For Kṛṣṇa you have to give up sense gratification. No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling--you have to adopt so many things, tyāga. Anartha-nivṛtti. These are anartha, unnecessary things. Do you think if you do not smoke, you die? Unnecessary. What is absolutely necessary, you accept. So bhogādi-tyāgaḥ kṛṣṇārthe. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "You have created so many unnecessary things. Give up." So that is not possible immediately, but it is possible. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgaḥ. The sādhu-saìga means associate with sādhu, guru. If we have śraddhā that "I shall now become Kṛṣṇa conscious"--this is śraddhā, "It is very nice"--then sādhu-saìga: those who are actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, you associate with him. Then bhajana-kriyā. Then bhajana-kriyā... The bhajana, that rise early in the morning, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take your bath, and so many things, bhajana-kriyā... Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all these unwanted things will be finished automatically. And if you do not do these first three, the fourth will not come, fourth stage, anartha... And after anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, then niṣṭhā, firm faith. Then anartha, tato ruciḥ. Then taste. Then you get taste. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ..., anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ. Taste. Just like you have got a taste for a food. You cannot give it up. "I want this." Ruci. Athāsaktiḥ. Then you become attached. Tato bhāvaḥ. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. This is the subject there.(?)

Pradyumna: Ādau śraddhā?

Prabhupāda: This is the next, I think. Śraddhā is the beginning--faith. That faith means firm faith. Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛòha niścaya. That is faith, fixed-up, firm faith. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. When you have got firm faith in this---"Yes! If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all other dharmas will be performed automatically"--then that is called faith. In the beginning, if you have no faith, where is the beginning? Then what is?

Pradyumna:

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-

saìgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā

tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt

tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ

athāsaktis tato bhāvas

tataḥ premābhyudaïcati

sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ

prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ

Prabhupāda: Prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. This is everything, description. So everything is there. We should take advantage and become perfect. And this is the chance of becoming perfect, the human form of life. If we miss it--finished. Nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra... Again go to the cycle of birth. Where is guarantee I am not going to be a dog? Who can check it? Nobody can. Nature's law is very strong. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu.

Pradyumna:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi

bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya

sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

Prabhupāda: Why one is taking birth as a brāhmaṇa and why one is taking birth as a dog? So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. There are three qualities: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. If you become, associate with sattva-guṇa, then you are elevated more and more. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. You remain where you are if you associate rajo-guṇa. And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And if you practice jaghanya, most abominable practices of tamo-guṇa, then go down. You cannot check it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. Guṇaiḥ again. Just like if you have infected some disease, cholera, you must suffer from cholera. If you have infected disease of smallpox, then you must suffer from smallpox. You cannot check it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya. You should be very cautious so that you may not be affected by this infectious disease. Therefore you require sadācāra. Always remain neat and clean and always associate with sādhus and Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be protected. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. This is the process. Otherwise kāraṇaṁ guṇa... As you infect with jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthāḥ, then you'll... There are many place... Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ. If you want to be liberated, then mahat-sevā--you have to associate with mahat, mahātmā, not durātmā. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saìgi-saìgam. If we become infected with yoṣitāṁ saìgi-saìgam, Then focus will be... Therefore these centers are being opened: "Come here. Live with Vaiṣṇavas. We are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even if you do not like, by their association you'll do it. Then you'll be purified." Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. "If you are practiced to drink tea and smoke, in our association you'll have to give it up because there is no supply of tea or smoking, meat-eating. Naturally you'll have to give it up." Therefore sādhu-saìga required. Who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. Sa mantavyaḥ. He's sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Here you'll find they have no other business, simply Kṛṣṇa bhajana. So if you associate, you'll also do. Saìgāt saïjāyate kāmaḥ. As we associate, then we develop the mind. And from the very beginning, if you want to become a paramahaṁsa, above all rules and regulations, that will not help.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Perhaps his doubt was whether he can do kṛṣṇa-japa while remaining in gṛhastha...

Prabhupāda: Who says no?

Guest (1): That was his doubt, I think, isn't it?

Guest (2) (Indian man): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Do that. Where is the loss? You gain. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): Because he must be attending ārati and all that, so...

Prabhupāda: Then he'll not require. If he's in office...

Guest (1): He didn't want to change his clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that...

Guest (1): He can do japa

Prabhupāda: No, no. It doesn't matter. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa always, the medicine is there already. Then it will rectify you automatically. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the loss? It is open for everyone. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva. Especially in this age it is very difficult to... But if you take to this harer nāma, then gradually ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Everything will be cleansed within your heart and you'll understand. You take to this immediately. Somebody is giving prasāda?

Satsvarūpa: There's is regular distribution.

Prabhupāda: Go and take prasāda. Jaya. Go and...

Satsvarūpa: Yes, everyone is taking

Prabhupāda: Go and take prasāda. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. Our propaganda is "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda." That's all. Is that very difficult task?

 

Room Conversation(2)                           January 27, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                    480141

Prabhupāda: ...anna-sambhavaḥ.

Satsvarūpa: "Surrender to Me." Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then there is rainfall...

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then there is foodgrain. We see this dry land... Because for the last few days, when changing his water he's pouring water here, we see grass growing. Water required. A vast tract of land here is lying. If there is sufficient rainfall you can very easily grow food. But so far rainfall is concerned, it is not in your hand. You rascal scientist, why don't you arrange for this? Everyone knows that from the sea, water is evaporated and is made cloud and thrown all over the land. So why don't you do that? There is enough water.

Satsvarūpa: It's too big a job. They can't... It's too big a job.

Prabhupāda: Then what kind of scientists?

Satsvarūpa: They can do a tiny bit in a laboratory, make some water.

Prabhupāda: So still, we have to accept them scientist?

Satsvarūpa: Everyone is simply bluffed by their word jugglery and by whatever little bit they've done. They say, "We've done this. Now you must worship us." And people are indebted.

Prabhupāda: So we have to challenge them like that. And as soon as you challenge, "Yes, wait millions of years." That's all.

Satsvarūpa: They say, "Actually we are working on that, how to make rain."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Satsvarūpa: They'll say, "Yes, actually we are working on that problem of making rain."

Prabhupāda: What is the working? People are suffering; you are working. There is a Bengali proverb, sate kusti dolpe gelun.(?) There was a big fair. One has to go there. So he began to dress himself nicely. So the time occupied for dressing, in the meantime the fair was finished. (laughs) Sate kusti kolpe gelun.(?) These are practical. You need immediately water. These rascals say, "Yes, wait. Wait for future."

Satsvarūpa: "Wait and give us billions of dollars. Research."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why shall I wait? Immediately necessary. You have no such power to evaporate the water and make into cloud and distribute. Very easily it is being done. Then why don't you accept somebody's doing that?

Satsvarūpa: If a scientist will accept there is God, then there is no harm in making scientific progress.

Prabhupāda: Then they will hear the words of God, Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be solved. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Then he will hear. They will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and there will be rain.

Satsvarūpa: If we condemn everything they do, then they say, "All right, if you think we're nonsense, then don't use our printing press for your books."

Prabhupāda: No. You are nonsense, that is accepted, but do not think that because you have manufactured printing press, you have become God. That is our proposal. We give you credit. And we can also say that without your printing press, people were not dying. Formerly people were copying. Everyone's business was going on. There was no need of mass studying. Only the brāhmaṇas, they used to copy and they used to vibrate the knowledge. And those who were interested, they were hearing and getting the knowledge. So what was the harm? It is little facility that... The same logic: The dog is running, four legs, you are running by four wheels. That does not mean that the dog will die, you'll not die. You'll die also, and dog will die. So this four-wheel car will not help you ultimately. Ultimately you have to die.

Satsvarūpa: Because it is modern times, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can keep pace with all these things, but we don't need them. We can use this, but if we don't have it, then we don't need it.

Prabhupāda: We don't support it. Our business does not support. You can live without car, but you cannot live without rainfall. Why don't you take the important business? Make machine that the water from the sea can be drawn and saltless and distributed. Why don't you do that?

Satsvarūpa: They've put aside the big problems and doing little things.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Childish. Every day the consumer's goods are increasing in price. So many poor men, they cannot purchase. Your motorcar machine, that is not meant for the poor man. Poor man requires food grains. There is no water. What you are doing for that? They require bread, food grains. Supply them sufficiently. They'll be happy. Without motorcar they can live. You can live also. But without food grains you cannot live and they cannot live.

Satsvarūpa: They can't do it, but then, when we say, "Rains will come by yajïa," they'll say "No."

Prabhupāda: No, that is... You don't believe it, but here is the... That means you do not believe in God. Why don't you make an experiment? Ask everybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, kīrtana. As soon as you say you don't believe, then you don't believe in God, "God says." That is your disease. I can give you so many points. You have to elaborate it.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. You give them already elaborate.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: You give everything.

Prabhupāda: Water is there.

Pālikā: Ācchā.

Prabhupāda: Lunchtime you'll make some cāpāṭi, very thin. I think I shall take cāpāṭis, a little rice. I'll give you instruction.

Pālikā: And what?

Prabhupāda: And at the time I shall tell you. Not any of the same thing. (chuckles) Everyone wants to cook for me.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But this girl, (laughs) she travels all over the world, spending her own money or society money?

Satsvarūpa: Society. She's the only one who's actually regular that is doing it good.

Prabhupāda: No, she is very responsible. Whatever I say, at least she tries to do it best. That is her qualification. Nei, everyone is doing. Nobody's...

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Nanda-kumāra wanted to do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nanda-kumāra, as a sannyāsī, he should better preach. I have no objection. It is up to you to decide. I don't give much credit to the scientists. I give them credit as far as they deserve. It is not that I don't give them credit. Why shall I not? But they deny the existence and they say "We shall conquer over nature, and we shall make according to our necessity." These rascals I challenge.

Satsvarūpa: Just like you give credit to your cook.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: But that does not mean that the cook is...

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Take credit as much as you deserve.

Satsvarūpa: The history of civilization in the West is that for centuries people believed whatever the Bible said about existence, and then, when science developed, the Bible did not appear very wise anymore, so they... They overthrew all the dogmatic teachings.

Prabhupāda: They are dogmatic teachings.

Satsvarūpa: So they take us like that too, another religious explanation.

Prabhupāda: No. Our religion is not faith. It is science. That is the fault. Fanaticism of Christianism, Muhammadanism, has created this godlessness. But Vedic knowledge is not that. It is really knowledge.

Satsvarūpa: And in the beginning, when science began, modern science, the scientists would say something against the Bible that was different than the Bible. Then they would torture him. The church would torture him, this Galileo, big scien... So they point these things out, that the church is not tolerant.

Prabhupāda: That is not our point. We want to understand God through philosophy. "Through philosophy" means logic. Blind faith is not our business. (break)

"...such date I have posted. You have got the literature. If you permit me, then I can show some of the books." Then our local representatives advise, "You go and see this gentleman." In this way contact him and leave some book with him, that "You first of all see. Then decide." Very honest business.

 

Room Conversation                                 January 28, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                     480686

Pṛthu-putra: ...to show me. They were telling me that "You are going to see the representative of God." And when I came to that vision, I saw the person. At that time I didn't know who (it) was. But I had some doubts in my mind, and I was thinking, "Oh, that's probably another kind of propaganda." This was all in the dream. But when I came to that person sitting on the elevated seat in that forest, surrounded by many, many devotees, that person looked at me and proved to me that he was the representative of God. But after, I forgot. Maybe one year or something like this. One or two years after...

Prabhupāda: So there is no doubt about it that I am the representative of God.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. But when I was...

Prabhupāda: Either you dream or not dream, I claim.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. But this thing was just confirming. When I saw you the first time in Amsterdam, you were the same person that I saw in my dream one or two years previously.

Prabhupāda: That... You have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Guru-tattva. Guru-tattva. So there it is clearly said that guru is the manifestation of God. So it is confirmed in the śāstra. And all the ācāryas accept it. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ.

Satsvarūpa: But is it possible to also learn spiritual truths from this..., from representatives on the subtle plane?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of subtle plane. You are on the gross plane. You first of all study gross things, and subtle, we shall see later on.

Pṛthu-putra: Of course, that was never a doubt. That's just the way I came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when I saw you...

Prabhupāda: So the guru is the representative of God. That's all right. Then what is your misunderstanding?

Pṛthu-putra: So then after I had some other things. For example, when I went to Egypt, in these pyramids one day I had some kind of contact on the subtle plane with persons who were supposed to live inside of the pyramids, and they gave me some kind of instructions.

Prabhupāda: Inside of the pyramid?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. That was (wasn't) in the dream. But people, they were quite clear.

Prabhupāda: These are just like we know gold and we know mountain...

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...and sometimes we mix together and we see golden mountain. So in dream we see like that. We have got hundreds and thousands of experiences in our this life and past life. They are all stocked there, and they can sometimes get like a bubbles. You have seen the bubbles come out? It is like that. We should not give much importance to these things. But it is a fact that bona fide spiritual master is bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. So there is no question of subtle or gross. It is a fact. That's all right.

Satsvarūpa: But we've been discussing, and Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja is saying that some devotees are very sensitive about thinking that they're having these experiences. And if we tell them, "Ignore this. It's not important," that will not be good for them, because they are definitely feeling visits from persons from another plane, and if you simply tell them, "No..."

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. You say that "You are fortunate that you're having, but do your business." That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: They want to feel satisfaction from Kṛṣṇa consciousness point of view.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sometimes it may be fact. There is no wonder. But we have to proceed with the figure. If I dream that I am getting one lakh of rupees, so it is better if I get five rupees in figure. Is that all right?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Simply dreaming I am getting one lakh of rupees, that is good, or actually, if you get five rupees, that is good? Which is good?

Pṛthu-putra: To get the actual five rupees.

Prabhupāda: So don't depend on the subtle thing. See practically what you are getting.

Satsvarūpa: What I thought was most dangerous is...

Prabhupāda: Most dangerous... Those who are neophyte, they will be always in danger.

Satsvarūpa: Sometimes these...

Prabhupāda: Always in danger because they are neophytes, just like a child is always in danger. So how you can save them? He's always in danger. So as far as possible, let us try. He's going to the fire. He's going to the water. He's going to the animal. He's eating some poison. So always in danger. That childish age is dangerous. Therefore mother takes care. Danger is already there because he's neophyte, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Therefore we have to abide by the injunction of the śāstra and guided by guru. That's all. That is our secure position. And otherwise danger always.

Pṛthu-putra: One boy in Paris, he had a visit...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is the position. Those who are neophyte, they are always in danger. Therefore their duty is to be guided by sādhu-śāstra-guru. That's all. That is our... Now, I'll say from my practical life... It is not pride. Actually everyone knows that my Guru Mahārāja had thousands of disciples. So out of thousands of disciples, practically I am little successful. That everyone knows. Why? Because I firmly believed in the words of my guru. That's all. This is the... There may be many other Godbrother, maybe very learned and very advanced, whatever it may be, favored, and... Everyone claims that "I am the most favorite." And practical point of view... So I think sometimes that "Why this wonderful thing has happened to me?" So I search out. I search out only that I cent percent believe in the words of my spiritual... That's all, nothing else. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Don't think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success. You are daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya. You know the meaning?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā.

Prabhupāda: This is the instruction. And the child decides it that "Whatever my parent says, that's all I shall do. I shall do nothing," then he's safe.

Satsvarūpa: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth."

Prabhupāda: Then he's safe. And as soon as he manufactures--finished. So don't do this. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau, tasyaite kathitā... This is the secret of spiritual success. Vṛndāvana, there are so many dangerous. All these bābājīs, they are... "Oh, I am not going out of Vṛndāvana." But he has got connection with so many women. So what is the use? Have you experience of this? He's attached to women and doing all sinful activities in Vṛndāvana, and he's a devotee. "He cannot go out of Vṛndāvana." This is going on, manufacturing biòi, smoking biòi, in the dress of Rūpa Gosvāmī, loincloth, big tilaka, kaṇṭhi, and what he's doing? Biòi-making. Have you seen?

Pṛthu-putra: I have seen some of them doing this, yes.

Prabhupāda: Not all of them. But they are also claiming they're on the stage of Rūpa Gosvāmī. We are preaching--we are lower stage. That is their opinion. We are preaching all over the world; we are in the lower stage. And because he has imitated the dress of Rūpa Gosvāmī, mālā, tilaka, and he's manufacturing biòi--he's higher. This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has condemned these rascals--that kali-celā--"the disciple of Kali." Ei ota eka kali-celā.(?) Here is a disciple of Kali. Who? Nāke tilaka galāi mālā. And sahajiyā bhajana kache mamu, saìge lana pare bala.(?) He has tilaka and mālā, and sahajiyā, with other girls he's making parakīyā-rasa-bhajana. Kali-celā. Ei ota eka kali-celā. So we have to guided by our predecessor ācāryas. Then we shall be saved. Otherwise we are condemned.

Pṛthu-putra: So when certain boys experience difficulties and they come to because...

Prabhupāda: What difficulty? What is the difficulty?

Pṛthu-putra: Well, for example...

Prabhupāda: We have got everything clearly stated, that we observe these regulative principle, chant, minimum sixteen rounds, and act as far as possible for the service of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?

Pṛthu-putra: Maybe the realization may not be there.

Prabhupāda: What is that realization? This is the prescribed duty. So there is no question of realization. You must do it.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. They must and they do also. They also do it.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the doubt? Let me go on with my duty. That's all. Why I shall be disturbed by so many things? Let me see whether I am discharging my duties properly. That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: That is what should be told to them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He may be very fortunate that he's dreaming. "All right, keep aside. Do your duty. You are very fortunate, but don't bother now. First of all be strong and follow." Otherwise ei chure pākā. Ei chure pākā. Ei chure (?) you know? Stunted jackfruit. Jackfruit becomes so big, but one fruit, it is so small and... Taya eka channi sa. (?) And it has become ripened. So it has no taste, neither it can be used for cooking--useless. Ei chure pākā. A small fruit ripen, it is useless either for this person or for that. So they are called in Bengali, ei chure pākā. Do your duty. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā..., āra nā koriho. That is bhajana. And as soon as he deviates--yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. He is finished. That has happened to Nitāi. Ei chure pākā. So what these people will do? It is the effect of bad association. That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: But in that particular thing there is no...

Prabhupāda: Also Caitanya Mahāprabhu has decide..., that decidedly given His version, asat-saìga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra: "A Vaiṣṇava, his first business is to give up the company of undesirable elements, asat." So who is undesirable element? Now, asat eka strī-saìgī, who is attached with woman, and kṛṣṇa-abhakta. So as soon as you mix with these so-called bābājīs, bhajana, bhajanānandīs and mixes with three dozen women, you are fallen. Immediately. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. Asat eka strī-saìgī. And regularly they are parakīyā-rasa. Their theory is that you have to select one woman who is not your bona fide wife, parakīyā. She must be other's wife or outsider. And with her you may do... You become Kṛṣṇa, and she becomes Rādhārāṇī. Then you become happy. This is going on. Do you know that? These rascals are guiding. And Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, asat-saìga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava. "First of all you have to give up the undesirable company of these rascals." They will show like that in a very advanced and vairāgya and taking three times bath and everything, but they have got connection with at least three, four woman. This is their bhajana. Regularly they will lie down with woman. That's a daily program. I know all these things. That is their bhajana. So be careful of these rascals.

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, we haven't come in contact with any of these rascals.

Prabhupāda: No, this Nitāi and others, they have...

Satsvarūpa: You're not associated with Rādhā-kuṇòa and that...

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, no. That was long time ago. Anyway, I was just staying in one place and didn't listen to anyone.

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇadāsa Bābājī, he's of the same type. Not only he, mostly. Because their theory is this, to pick up some woman who is not your wife, she must be parakīyā, other's wife. And making Rādhārāṇī, and you become Kṛṣṇa, and this is parakīyā... And pointed out by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, he's a kali-celā. Ei ota eka kali-celā, nāke tilaka galāi mālā, and sahajiyā bhajana kache mamur saìge lana pare bala.(?) This is... It's not new thing. It is coming since a long time. Otherwise how Bhaktivinoda Öhākura... He's our like grandfather.

Satsvarūpa: This discussion with Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja and the devotees in Europe doesn't so much concern those bābājīs as this business of the, when something is visited, when you have a visitation from the subtle plane, whether to take it as important or not. But you've already explained the position, to go on with your duty and not consider the message very important. Sometimes they speak of...

Prabhupāda: No, suppose you have seen that a gold mountain has come in your possession. Will you be satisfied with that?

Pṛthu-putra: No.

Prabhupāda: So this is like that. This is like that.

Pṛthu-putra: But in the case of Adhikaraṇa, person came as a fact.

Satsvarūpa: But this was... They feel this was more factual. An actual person came... A person...

Prabhupāda: How it is factual? Where is their golden mountain?

Pṛthu-putra: It's... You have seen gold, and you have seen mountain, and then the association means golden mountain in a dream...

Prabhupāda: It is like that.

Pṛthu-putra: ...according to your desire.

Prabhupāda: It is like that.

Pṛthu-putra: This is psychological...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: ...conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: But an actual person came one day to the temple to a boy.

Prabhupāda: The same, same thing. Where is that actual person?

Pṛthu-putra: Well, it was a person, an old lady who come like this, astrologer

Prabhupāda: Ordinar... He came eye to eye? Or dream?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes, a person came, person.

Satsvarūpa: No. They're saying it's not a dream state but actual manifestation. Just like a demigod comes, they are being visited by...

Prabhupāda: But he only visited? Nobody else?

Pṛthu-putra: No, many devotees could see that person coming to the temple, but she spoke to only one, to Adhikaraṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, very good. But do your duty. If you get some such person, devatā, "Welcome, but I must do my own duty."

Pṛthu-putra: But they gave similar message, so that means that message was... They were informing that some big disturbances will come in this world and...

Prabhupāda: Let them come. What is there? Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati. If you are actually devotee...

Pṛthu-putra: A devotee's not afraid of going anywhere.

Prabhupāda: So why you are discussing them? Let whatever calamity may come, let come.

Pṛthu-putra: The devotees accept this point.

Satsvarūpa: In other words, they are taking information from these persons aside from your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: But everything... We should be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: That means he is trying to deviate from the path chalked out by their spiritual master.

Pṛthu-putra: No. On the opposite way, they try to learn more about the books because they feel they have to be spiritual teacher of the future. That is the opposite way.

Prabhupāda: That's all right...

Pṛthu-putra: They don't go away from Śrīla Prabhupāda's teaching. On the opposite, we try to learn more and to be more qualified in order to teach spiritually on the case...

Prabhupāda: But no, no..., that, that... They're overintelligent. Just like Nitāi has become overintelligent. "Please bless me I may find out a bona fide guru." He has written me.

Pṛthu-putra: (laughs) That's craziness.

Prabhupāda: He has written me that. He is asking my blessing to find out another bona fide guru. Such a rascal he is. If his present guru is not bona fide, why he's asking blessing from him? Such a rascal. He has written me.

Pṛthu-putra: This is nonsense proposition.

Prabhupāda: No, you say, but he is such a learned, overlearned, he's asking somebody blessing who is not bona fide to find out bona fide. Just see his position. If you are seeking a bona fide spiritual master, why you asking the blessing of non-bona fide? (laughs) I could simply laugh, that's all, that such a rascal... He was doing some tangible service, editing work. He left everything. Now he's going to find out bona fide spiritual..., for bhajanānanda. Therefore, asat-saìga-tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava. The first thing is... It is enunciated by... Whether this man is attached to woman? Then finish, all bona fide finish. As soon as one is attached to woman, either legal or illegal, his all qualification finished. Asat eka strī-saìgī. And these rascals have derived meaning that "One who has one strī only, he's asat. One who has more than one strī, he's sat." They have interpreted like that. Asat eka strī-saìgī. Kṛṣṇa mean... Number one asat is strī-saìgī, and number two asat is who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning. But they have taken, eka strī-saìgī: "One who keeps only one woman, he's asat. One who keeps more than one woman, he is sat. So we are keeping more than one woman." This is going on. (break) Nobody has seen. Somebody came. He... They only saw. And there are other devotees; they could not see. He's so advanced, only he is, he could see. This is bogus.

Satsvarūpa: In Europe, Bhagavān dāsa... (break)

Pṛthu-putra: Some of the people became seeing things.

Prabhupāda: They came. Nobody could see. Only he could see. This is bogus. You should never encourage that. This is bogus! That's all. If somebody comes, everyone will see. And "If I see only; nobody can see," this is bogus. Don't encourage these bogus things.

Pṛthu-putra: I don't encourage these things.

Prabhupāda: "Only he could see." He's so advanced, his eyes are only fit to see that and nobody, others. That is bogus. Others have also eyes. But oh, he has got transcendental eyes.

Pṛthu-putra: No, no. It wasn't like this. It's not thing like this. It's not... No, but from...

Prabhupāda: Why you become authority of understand? That is not good.

Pṛthu-putra: Because I had these experiences, and they don't me deviated from studying...

Prabhupāda: That is not experience. That is only dream. That is not experience. Nobody has seen. Somebody came, (indistinct) only saw. And there are other devotees, he is so advanced, only he could see. This is bogus. This is bogus. They came. Nobody could see, only he could see. This is bogus. You should never encourage it. This is bogus, that's all. If somebody comes, everyone will see. If I see only, everyone... This is bogus. Don't encourage it, bogus.

Pṛthu-putra: I'm not encouraging these things.

Prabhupāda: Only he could see, he's so advanced, for his eyes only. He could see, and nobody else. That is bogus. Others have also eyes. But he has got transcendental eyes.

Pṛthu-putra: No, it wasn't transcendental... It's not a question of transcendental eyes.

Prabhupāda: That is bogus. Not only he, there are many. They'll simply repeat that. There are many. They come... Many devotees, our life members, big, big men, they come: "Swamiji, I experienced like this. Some man came. Some boy came." Means real purpose is that he wants to prove that he is already connected with higher planetary system. I have got many experiences. They say like that.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. I have met also life members saying things like this recently here.

Prabhupāda: So simply hear them. That's all. One big barrister, he was my friend. He is dead, M. C. Chatterji. He's a very big barrister. He used to charge sixteen thousand rupees for one appearance. So he was stating about when..., that he came to Vṛndāvana, and he met one boy, and "He asked me some sweets, I gave him sweet. Later on, when I was coming back to Delhi, I saw that boy was running on the train." He said. Such a big barrister, he said like that. "Oh, he was so..." Posturing like this. What can I say? "Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy was running after you in the train?" This is going on. Another friend's wife, she came to Jagannātha Purī. So Jagannātha Purī, those who are rich men, they are allowed to go near the Jagannātha. So that lady said that "While I was circumambulating, Jagannātha was snatching my cloth." Jagannātha became so much attached with that blackish woman that He began to snatch his (her) cloth. So many stories I know. So what can be said? "Why did you not remain with Jagannātha? Why you came back?" This is going on. So I have got experience of many such stories. Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy was running with his train. I have to take. And Jagannātha was snatching her cloth. They are very poisonous things. I was never fortunate with such incidences. I am simply trying to carry out the order of my Guru Mahārāja. That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: It was never such story as people having contact with Kṛṣṇa, anything like this. That never went on. That was never going on.

Satsvarūpa: I asked why these visitations are not mentioned in your books, people from the subtle plane. And one answer I was given is that if you wrote this in your books, then too many devotees would try to contact these persons, but that you do approve of it, but you don't want to put it in your books. But I thought, no, you put everything in your books.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Everything is in the books.

Satsvarūpa: These are the things I heard.

Prabhupāda: Tell them this, that "Whatever it may be, you do your duty. That's all."

Pṛthu-putra: That's clear, very clear.

Prabhupāda: These sahajiyās will come out of so many devotees. What can be done? From my Guru Mahārāja's disciples, so many sahajiyās came. These are called sahajiyās. Very easily they capture thing. So my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "When my disciples will be sahajiyā, it will be more dangerous." He used to say like that. Take things very easily. You know that Puruṣottama, supposed to be my Godbrother?

Pṛthu-putra: No.

Prabhupāda: You don't know?

Pṛthu-putra: In Māyāpura?

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana.

Pṛthu-putra: In Vṛndāvana. Ah, yes. Puruṣottama, yes.

Prabhupāda: He has poisoned this Nitāi.

Pṛthu-putra: Oh. Is it because we have the desire to come in contact with such persons that we contact them, like Nitāi contacting that Puruṣottama?

Prabhupāda: You may not desire, but if you are not strong, you'll be misled by these rascals. But if we follow this instruction, Narottama dāsa Öhākura, āra nā koriho mane āśā, oh, then you become strong. Then you remain strong. Our bhakti line is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. We should be completely zero of our material desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Śūnyam means zero. So our classes are not held here?

Satsvarūpa: Bhāgavatam class in the morning? No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? This is not good, so many devotees and there is no class. Where they have gone now?

Satsvarūpa: Gargamuni and Gurukṛpā Mahārāja have gone to a place to look for some land for a possible temple. I'm trying to remember the place. They say it's the place where Lord Caitanya was caught in the net by the fisherman. It is between...

Pṛthu-putra: Karanak.

Satsvarūpa: Between here and Purī. He said maybe there is some likely sights there, and they went to look.

Prabhupāda: Karanak is near Purī?

Satsvarūpa: It's near here.

Prabhupāda: But He was caught in the net in Purī, not...

Pṛthu-putra: Karanak is not so near Purī because Bhubaneshwar is like this, Purī is like this, and Karanak is situated like this.

Satsvarūpa: That's where they're going, Karanak. It somehow is a holy place.

Prabhupāda: Karanak is a holy place. That I know.

Satsvarūpa: But I will arrange with Gaura-Govinda Mahārāja that we should have classes every morning.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, idle brain, devil's workshop. You should not remain idle. Either chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or read books. Have class. This is not good.

 

Morning Walk                                         January 29, 1977,Bhubaneswar                                                      480903

Satsvarūpa: You were asking yesterday what are some of the charges that the opposing party makes against us. That's another one, that we follow absolute authority, your authority and also in the temples, that the temple president or leaders, they have authority, and this is not healthy psychology, that we should...

Prabhupāda: Why you come to pose your authority? If authority is not good, then why do you come to instruct your authority? Hm? The same thing, eh, change from one authority to another authority.

Satsvarūpa: But I don't say you have to accept me absolutely as...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak nonsense then, if I haven't got to accept you? What is the use of speaking all nonsense? If nobody accepts you, then why do you talk nonsense? Somebody's selling something, and if he says, "Don't purchase it," then what is the use of... (laughs) All contradiction. After all, they are nonsense.

Satsvarūpa: They think that by surrendering to the spiritual master, if many people do this, it will be very dangerous because they won't think for themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But you ask to surrender to you, so why shall I not surrender to my spiritual master? What is the use of changing surrendering?

Satsvarūpa: Well, at least if we don't have absolute authority, I may tell you something and if it's not good, you don't have to follow me.

Prabhupāda: So why do you speak nonsense, the same thing, if I haven't got to follow you? Why you waste your time and waste my time?

Hari-śauri: If what he's saying has no value, then why should he speak?

Prabhupāda: Then why do you waste your time?

Satsvarūpa: Relative value.

Prabhupāda: That I have already got.

Satsvarūpa: And that's all there is, they say.

Prabhupāda: Already I have got relative value.

Devotee (1): They say that each man has his own life to live so he can take the best from many authorities. He can say, "Well, I like some of what you are saying and some of what someone else is saying, so I can take what's best for me in my life."

Prabhupāda: But if I find in one place the best, why shall I take so much trouble? Why do you induce me to go here and there if I get in one place everything?

Satsvarūpa: That's what we found.

Hari-śauri: If I like everything you're saying, then why shouldn't I accept that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: And why should they object if we decide to surrender to one authority?

Prabhupāda: They are asking surrender.

Hari-śauri: They're actually envious because they want everybody to follow their idea of going here and there.

Satsvarūpa: One person said, "This kind of thing reminds me of Hitler's Germany. If there's too much authority or blind following, it's not healthy."

Prabhupāda: No, too much authority if the authority is wrong... But if the authority is right, then it is very better to submit in one place and get everything. Just like we go to some supermarket. We get everything there, we go there.

Hari-śauri: And there's no question of blind following either.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Otherwise why would we distribute so many books?

Satsvarūpa: I went to one professor who refused to help us, and he said the reason is... Although we may be being persecuted now and we're a small movement, by reading our books and talking to the devotees, he thinks that if we ever did become powerful we would also become intolerant and we would not allow people to have any other religion. So he said, "Although you're small, I'm afraid to help you."

Prabhupāda: That means he does not understand us.

Satsvarūpa: Is it a fact that if Kṛṣṇa consciousness was the main power, would people be allowed to...?

Prabhupāda: Which way? Which way? This way?

Satsvarūpa: In the Vedic culture, are people allowed to follow any other belief? In a society where there is Kṛṣṇa conscious king or president, say someone doesn't want to be a devotee. What happens to him?

Prabhupāda: Devotee... Unless one is devotee, he cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Imaṁ rājarṣayo... Means at king, the same time...

Satsvarūpa: No. The king, if the king is a devotee, but one of the subjects says, "I still don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, but I want to live here also."

Prabhupāda: So king has the power to chastise him. Just like if this child says, "I don't believe in education," shall I have to accept? He must be punished. He's a child. He can say, "Father, I don't believe in education. Let me play." Will the father allow? Chastise him. That is king's duty.

Devotee (1): So if someone wanted to be, say, a Christian in the Kṛṣṇa conscious..., a society led by a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, if someone wanted to be a Christian, would he be chastised?

Prabhupāda: First of all, whether Christian is religion or, imperfect thing, we have to see that. The father does not chastise always. When the son does wrong, then he chastises. Otherwise why shall he chastise? Christian means if they... Religion means one who believes in God and abides by the order of God. That's his religion.

Satsvarūpa: So if they chanted Christos and stopped eating meat but they still wanted to follow the Bible...

Prabhupāda: No, Bible... But if they follow Bible, that is religion, approved. But they do not follow. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." They are killing. So what kind of Christian he is? He's a nonsense.

Satsvarūpa: They should be chastised.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be punished. That is the duty of the king. You follow any bona fide religion; you get all protection. But you don't follow; you must be chastised. That is king's duty. A king has no objection whether you are following Christian method or Hindu method. It doesn't matter. But you must have some religion. If you have no religion, then you are animal. You must be chastised. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Religion means you believe in God and love Him. That's all, three words, religion. "You believe in God" means know God, what is God. And love Him. That's all. This is religion. So it doesn't matter whether you understand God through Christian method or Hindu method. But you love God and you abide by the orders of God. Then you are religious. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma means, religion means, the words of God. So you must know what is God, and you must know what does He say. Then you are religious. It doesn't matter what it is, Christian and Hindu. Gold is gold. Whether you purchase it from a Muhammadan shop or Hindu shop or Christian shop, it doesn't matter. You must get gold. That's all. So whether you have got God? If you have got some fictitious God, then you must learn what is God. What is that? You do not know God, so you must learn what is God. If you refuse to learn, then you must be punished. And if you know God, then it is all right. If you do not know, then you must learn. If you refuse to learn, must be punished. That's all.

Devotee (1): What is the test we can understand someone... If someone says, "I know God," then how can we...

Prabhupāda: Say what is God. Say what is God. What do you mean by God?

Devotee (1): "God is the force moving the universe," he says.

Prabhupāda: Then that means you do not know. Force... A child can also see the force. But behind the force, who is there? Whenever there is force, there must be one person forceful who is forcing. You know that?

Devotee (1): Well, I am in no position to see.

Prabhupāda: That's right. Then learn it from me. Otherwise, if you refuse, then you must be punished. That is my duty.

Hari-śauri: You were just saying that a person who's not religious, he's no better than an animal, but he might argue that even the animals have a right to live undisturbed.

Prabhupāda: No, animal... Right to live with animal is subjected to be punished, just to live rightly. Suppose a cow comes with his horn like that. He must be punished immediately, the atrocity.(?) Then he'll be corrected.

Hari-śauri: But there are so many animals living in the jungle who don't...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, jungle, we have no business to go there. We have rejected jungle. Let them live there. But in the human society, if the animal disturbs, it must be punished--with stick.

Satsvarūpa: What about say a Buddhist who practices ahiṁsā...?

Prabhupāda: Now, Buddhist... I say there is no question of "Buddhist," "Christian." One must know what is God.

Satsvarūpa: But he would say, "I follow our leader, and we don't believe in the Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupāda: But if you follow... Then leader is a wrong person. You cannot follow. You must follow the right leader.

Hari-śauri: One cannot say that he does not believe in the power of the state.

Prabhupāda: Then that is not leadership. That is misleader. These are very intelligent questions, nice. King means he has to see that the citizens are doing nicely, and that is king's duty.

Bhāgavata: The king is like a father.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated. Lord Rāmacandra treated His subjects as sons and they also treated Lord Rāmacandra as father. That is the relationship between the citizens and the king--father and son.

Bhāgavata: The chastisement that the king gives...

Prabhupāda: That is out of love.

Bhāgavata: Out of love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not by enviousness. Chastisement means correction. He's in the wrong way; he is corrected to the right way. So gradually you have to take the power of the king to correct the whole human society. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. That is Kṛṣṇa's business, to give protection to the right person and to chastise the wrong person, two things required, side by side. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. And dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Three, another. By chastising the wrongdoer and by giving protection to the right man, and then establish what is real religion. And then Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is perfect. Three things: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. This is Kṛṣṇa's business. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, everything will be nice, everything.

Satsvarūpa: Nowadays coming to power usually means some violent revolution or political maneuvers.

Prabhupāda: They are trying also to correct, but they do not know how to correct. That is the defect. And therefore we take this authority, that "Here everything is correct." Everyone is trying to remodel, but they do not know how to remodel. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (in car)

Pṛthu-putra: ...but he's not writing books himself. It's all people. They hear his conferences, they collect all his conferences, and they write for him. He never wrote any books himself, Krishnamurti.

Hari-śauri: No, I read a book he wrote. (break) A friend recommended it to me. He said he was very exuberant. He said he'd found a book you could read and throw away at the end. So out of curiosity, I started to read...

Prabhupāda: So why shall I take the trouble? I throw it immediately. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: I got the book, and I... There was one chapter called, "Does God Exist?" something like that. So I turned to that one first. And after I read the first paragraph, I threw the book out, (laughs) because he was saying, "Well, God exists if you believe He exists. And if you don't believe He exists, then He doesn't exist."

Prabhupāda: So it depends on me. God's existence depends on me.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. So I thought, "Well, if he's leaving it up to me to decide..." I was buying the book to try and find some information. So what was the...? So I couldn't see the value in the thing. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...all the clubs, they...

Satsvarūpa: Social.

Pṛthu-putra: Lions and Rotary. Very often we have engagements in these clubs, and they always drink and do their nonsense. (break)

Prabhupāda: They have "mation." What is that? "Cremation"? (break)

Satsvarūpa: This year in the United States several temples had very good success by advertising a cooking class in the college, because many times the students, they don't want to come when they see Bhagavad-gītā or bhakti-yoga. But they would see "Indian Cooking," and they would go, and in the class they would teach how to make cooking, but then they would preach, "And so this food should be offered to God, and this is the Bhagavad-gītā." In this way it was much...

Prabhupāda: Very good. This is very nice.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. We had also classes like this in Paris. People were coming just to learn how to cook. And in that way they could hear the philosophy.

Gargamuni: Prabhupāda, these are the vehicles that I can get for three thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: Then you have to repair.

Gargamuni: Yes, but still, this vehicle, if it was being sold... (break)

Prabhupāda: Authority is sufficient. And if he's imperfect, he cannot be authority. So change of authority means everyone is imperfect, so why shall I do like that?

Satsvarūpa: That's even... That's their philosophy. There's a saying, "Nobody's perfect."

Prabhupāda: No. That you do not know, who is perfect. That is your ignorance. We know. If I know who is perfect, why shall I take your advice, "Nobody is perfect"? Kṛṣṇa is perfect. I know from authorities, from perfect persons.

Hari-śauri: Then they might argue that "I have my authority, and I'm happy to live by it."

Prabhupāda: But you do not believe in authority. You say, "Nobody is perfect." How you get, have, authority? Your statement is "Nobody is perfect," so how you can get?

Hari-śauri: But as far as my own happiness goes...

Prabhupāda: You are unhappy.

Pṛthu-putra: So then the question is... After Arjuna heard the whole Bhagavad-gītā and understood it, when he engaged in the battlefield, still, when he heard that Abhimanyu, his son, died, he was very agitated again and...

Prabhupāda: So that is natural. If my sons dies, I will not be agitated? What is the wrong there?

Pṛthu-putra: Well, one advocate asked me this in Allahabad.

Prabhupāda: That is temporary. That is temporary, but it is natural. Suppose if I prick you, you feel some pain, but that is temporary. Āgamāpāyinaḥ anityāḥ. They come and go.

Hari-śauri: Well, you may say that I'm unhappy with the authority I've got now, but if you force me to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness when I don't want it, then that will also make me unhappy.

Prabhupāda: No, if it is right thing, then I am right to force you.

Satsvarūpa: This is against our democratic spirit in the West. It...

Prabhupāda: Democratic means "demoncratic."

Satsvarūpa: That's why they revolted against the kings, so that they wouldn't have to be forced. "Give me liberty or give me death."

Hari-śauri: But under that banner of saying "This is good for you," you can force me to do all kinds of things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is king's duty. Then force. Otherwise why there is military force? (end)

 

Room Conversation                               January 29, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                     481049

Prabhupāda: Lead a gentle life. We don't allow divorce. Is that not good?

 

Prabhupāda: No, you talk amongst yourselves everything. And you are all GBC. Tell, "This is not good." They should have kīrtana here. They should go to the city, kīrtana party. People should know that there is... Something is going to be done. Actually they want to enjoy that sea bathing. They're going here and there. That is their business. That is not preaching. That is sense enjoyment. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Why there should be discrimination, "Not here, not there"? He wants in every village and every town. How you can discriminate? Wherever possible, you should start.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtana and prasādam distribution. This is our preaching mainly. And if they hear little philosophy, that is very good. Otherwise simply kīrtana and prasādam distribution is sufficient. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. He was not speaking philosophy to everyone. Kīrtana and prasāda distribution. So our men can perform very nice kīrtana, and if they come to take little prasādam, that is preaching. You have to maintain this standard, that kīrtana must go on and prasādam should be distributed.

Satsvarūpa: And take collection for that, to continue that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By selling books, by contribution, somehow or other maintain. Everywhere.

Satsvarūpa: Our movement has changed in America in the past six years or so. Now devotees are not much seen on the streets chanting. So there's different feelings. Some say it is all right, because everyone is now distributing books more.

Prabhupāda: That is also nice.

Satsvarūpa: That's also a kind of kīrtana. But then the public, they hardly ever see us anymore. They used to say, "Oh, the saffron-robed people chanting on the streets."

Prabhupāda: But they come to the love feast.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. It's not necessary to emphasize that street chanting.

Prabhupāda: No. Sell books and invite them to come to temple for love feast.

Satsvarūpa: And there is all these men. It's still five more days before the ceremony. If they can do this..., programs locally.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should go to the... Yes, locally. Kīrtana party. They should go in their bus and have in the city kīrtana party. Try to collect something. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                             January 29,1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     480988

Prabhupāda: (break) ... and European temples, Deity worship, kīrtana. It will go on increasing, more and more centers. And make such a policy--pickpocket $250 and give them books. $250 for an American is nothing. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Not very much.

Prabhupāda: Not at all! Any common man can pay $250--once. Not that we are getting every month or every few year. Once 250 even ordinary worker can pay.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They do like that with those sets of books.

Satsvarūpa: They don't have to pay all at once.

Hari-śauri: Most things are done in America are on credit.

Satsvarūpa: "Book of the Month Club," they have. Very popular.

Prabhupāda: So you... We have to organize like that. And actually this is greater valuable for their life, changing life.

Hari-śauri: Yes. These book clubs are very big.

Prabhupāda: So now you all GBC make a plan how to introduce the books in every home. The same policy in other languages also. America is English language. Similarly, we can do here also in Hindi language, in Oriya language, or in Europe. So we have got much work ahead. Don't think our business is finished. No. Simply very intelligent we have to do it.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have no objection, English. But if they wanted that national language, why not take Sanskrit? I am international. I don't believe in this national or statewise. I never believed. This is very good idea, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. God is the proprietor. He is the original father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Why do they not take this philosophy? They have attempted this United Nation organization. And where is the philosophy how to make one state? That is cheating them. Why not make one state?

Hari-śauri: They actually don't desire that.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: They can speak, "United Nations," but...

Prabhupāda: The barking, dog's bark. Otherwise, what... They do not attempt it. Why not make one state--the whole world? Keep the democracy, but make one state, "United States of the World." Why "United States of America"? Make English language common language and "United States of the World." If they organize, they can do it. Just like United States has included Hawaii. They are not actually of the same blood. They are not European. So how they are managing Hawaii? Hawaii is a different stock. It is from Chinese.

 

Prabhupāda: So if you can educate people, they will be united. This is actually united nations movement. Actually see how these Europeans, Americans, and Africans, and others, without any artificial allurement, how we are keeping together. Nobody is dissatisfied with humble eating, humble living, humbly, plain living. So it is possible. There is possibility. We live simple life, high thinking--United Nation. We can possibly... And there will be no scarcity. If we live simple life with Kṛṣṇa conscious thinking, There will be no scarcity.

Hari-śauri: Just like India has so many villages. Because they are living simply, then there's enough for everyone.

Prabhupāda: No scarcity. Population increasing? You increase your food. So much land everywhere vacant, all over the world. But that they will not do. They will keep the cattles and eat. Cattle also, they want vegetables. Otherwise where you'll get cattle? But therefore in Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce food grains. Just like this is. How nice it is, from paddy. So you take the paddies, rice, eat, and the grass you can utilize in so many ways. Anywhere you can till the ground, you get paddy and the grass. Make your cottage. So shelter is there. And the animals also like this grass. You can make home. Where is the scarcity? Plain living, high thinking, and prepare for next life. Go back home, back to Godhead. Finish this hellish life of repeated birth and death. There is no knowledge. And when we try to give them this knowledge, they say, "You are brainwashed. You have imported some new way of life, style of life. Brainwash." So our European, American devotees, they like rice? No.

 

Room Conversation(2)                           January 30, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                      481089

Pṛthu-putra: ...thing they always like, when we don't explain to them too much the meaning of the chanting, they like the music.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Well then that is all right.

Pṛthu-putra: But when we start to explain the meaning, then they're a little bit suspicious because they don't tolerate other type of religion.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why...? Let them chant and take prasāda. This preaching, that's all. Later on, when they're a little advanced, then talk of philosophy. Otherwise there is no need of philosophy. If they are, some of them, educated, they can read the books voluntarily. But general process is anywhere, any part of the world, you simply give them chance of chanting and take prasāda. That will be peaceful.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Is it possible to see the lot of films now? (?)

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Pṛthu-putra: Because I went to some universities. They have big, big universities in Cairo and in every places in North Africa, because now they try to be educated. The white Africans, they have some intelligence to understand to a certain extent philosophy, because when I was talking about the Bhagavad-gītā, when I showed the table of contents table of contents, they more or less agreed to take interest in it because table of contents, they more or less agreed to take interest in it because they didn't see anything specific about another religion, another God. They were seeing the titles like "Confidential Knowledge," "Transcendental Knowledge," "Karma-yoga," "Jïāna-yoga." They are very interested about knowing these things.

Prabhupāda: That is good the first, beginning, let them come. Let them sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and take prasāda. In Iran we are doing that. Gradually it is becoming interesting. You had been in our Iran, Tehran?

Pṛthu-putra: I went there also some time, long time ago. But Iran is a different concept. They're not so strict about following the Koran. For example, these Arabic countries like Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and Tunisia, they don't recognize Iran like being part of them. Iran and Turkey and Afghanistan they think is another Muslim world. For example, in Iran there is much more Sufis, the different... But in these Arabic countries like Egypt, they're really conservative. They're very strict.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Conservative means fanatical.

Pṛthu-putra: Fanatical, yes, that's the word. So my idea, when I went there... Because I have an Arabic boy who is translating. So I have one Śrī Éśopaniṣad completely translated into Arabic which can be printed.

Prabhupāda: So print.

Pṛthu-putra: But it's a very specific work. So my idea was to print something more like Topmost Yoga System for a first try, or Easy Journey to Other Planets for a first try.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: To like approach. Because Śrī Éśopaniṣad is too specific.

Prabhupāda: Specific and little strict.

Pṛthu-putra: So I have one boy in Paris who is translating for me. He is coming regularly to the temple, he chants, and he's coming every Sunday or sometimes three or four times a week.

Prabhupāda: Somebody, some Arabian boy, translated?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...people do not know. So we are preaching for them, "It is fortunate that you accept God. You know God." So in this way. And actually that is the fact. Mostly, eighty percent of the population, they are atheists, all. The Muslims, they are not atheists.

Pṛthu-putra: No. They follow the Koran.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Pṛthu-putra: They follow very strictly the laws of Koran. Even their whole social structure is based on Koran.

Prabhupāda: That is here in India also.

Pṛthu-putra: But they are also killing the animals.

Prabhupāda: Their Koran, their Koran... Oh, that is... What can we do? They are habituated. In Arabia where is food?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Very desert most of the time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore they're allowed. Question is, jīvo jīvasya jīvanam: "One living entity..."

Pṛthu-putra: "...is the food of another."

Prabhupāda: Another. So when you have got less important life, why should we kill more important? Just like Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, protecting the cows. That is a very important animal. He doesn't say goat-rakṣya or lamb-rakṣya. Those who want to eat meat, they can eat some unimportant animal, but don't touch cow. It is very important.

Pṛthu-putra: They mostly eat goats, chicken.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, cow flesh is strictly forbidden. But it doesn't mean that they are vegetarian. They eat fish and goat, lamb, sometimes buffalo. But not to touch the cow. From economic point of view, from vitamin point of view, cow should be given... Just like from the milk of cow we can prepare so many nice things. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam.

Satsvarūpa: I spoke with Nanda-kumāra Mahārāja about his maybe staying here, and he likes the idea.

Prabhupāda: So, there will be good community. How the Egyptian people are?

Pṛthu-putra: They're really a nationalistic type of persons.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Pṛthu-putra: But I never noticed like this anywhere else. And they're really attached to family life, even more than in India.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They have got nice family?

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes. They have nice family, and they have many children. And the man is working, and the woman stay home and prepare food, taking care...

Prabhupāda: That is Indian culture.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes, it's exactly like in India. But their family attachment is so strong that it is..., it will be very difficult to have devotees out of them.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why you should dissuade them from family life? That is not our...

Pṛthu-putra: No, I'm not doing that. I know.

Prabhupāda: Let them remain, family life, but understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all. We never condemn family life. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa anywhere. That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes. But that will be very difficult for them to become devotee. Instead, they went to the Western countries and become devotees there. But otherwise, in their own country will be very difficult for them.

Prabhupāda: Let us invite them, whole family. Let them come, take prasāda, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. That I did.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Pṛthu-putra: I was living with one whole family. Sometimes I cooked prasāda for them, and they like it very much. They like us as a person.

Prabhupāda: Simply follow this. Give them prasādam and let them chant. That is preaching. And if they're educated, let them read books. Then gradually, he'll automatically come. (break)

Pṛthu-putra: ...sheik. And they say that when the sheik is teaching them the spiritual understanding from Koran, they can have..., he's like the link between God and themself, and they can have direct contact with God from inside. So... And they say what Muhammad said, that was no prophet after him. So they always asking from which prophet we are following. So one day I told Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he accept it more or less because I explained to this person... He was a professor in Cairo University. He was a Sufist himself, so he was much more open than the regular Muslim. And I explained to him that Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared according to the time and circumstances to preach love of God. And he understood it, but he just didn't know Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he said, "Then it's very nice. I can try to take knowledge of your philosophy," and he took the Gītā. He has the Gītā with him. So whenever I come back, he tell me, I always can go and give some discourses in the University, in his class. So I gave some discourses in universities, but sometimes I had to use some tricks. Like for example, once I gave a discourse in psychology department, explaining to them how the yoga system can bring you to different state of consciousness. And when I hint to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they were a little bit wondering what it is. Because unfortunately, due to their political situation, always in war with Israel and all these things, they're little bit...

Prabhupāda: Still war going on?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (break) Oh. In the dictionary it is clearly stated, "God the Supreme Being." So He's a being, but supreme. And what are the signs of supremacy? One must be very rich, very famous, very strong, very learned. In this way analyze. So God means one who is in possession of all these things, all the reputation, all the beauty. That is God. On this point discuss. Now, who is God, that is to be found. But this is the position of God. Try to convince them.

Pṛthu-putra: Because they are convinced already about this through the Koran. They already accept God is one, and He's possessing all fame, all beauty. But they say... The only point is that He cannot come down to the earth because the earth is a planet of sin.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your not perfect conception. If He is almighty and He's all-powerful, why you restrict Him?

Pṛthu-putra: They say, "No, He's not restricted. But when He has to reveal Himself He reveals to the prophet. This is the reason why Muhammad received the instruction from God."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. But you cannot say that He does not come to showing mercy to a prophet. He may come if He likes. That is mission. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnām. One who is actually devotee, prophet, he's always anxious to see what they (indistinct). So in order to favor them, (Sanskrit). What is their proposition?

Pṛthu-putra: In the story of Koran they say Muhammad once asked to see God, and God's answer was, "You're not able to see Me."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. At least he could hear Him. So that is possible. Not that necessarily one has to see Him, but he can hear Him. Now, you have said that Muhammad heard Him, so God can speak. So you can hear. So where is the objection?

Pṛthu-putra: No objection.

Prabhupāda: Muhammad... If somebody can hear Him, somebody can see Him also. You cannot deny because they're all senses. To hear God means with my senses we appreciate Him. Similarly, eyes are also one of the senses. Now if somebody sees Him, where is the objection? If somebody can hear Him, where is the objection if somebody can see Him? Reasonably, there is no objection. In this way... So God is omnipotent. If some of His prophet devotees wants to hear Him, he can do that, if wants to see Him, he can do that.

Pṛthu-putra: But they think the prophet as an ordinary man who received the mercy from the Lord.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without being... Without being mercied by the God, how one can become prophet? Then he's ordinary man.

Pṛthu-putra: But they say he was an ordinary man like us up to the time that God revealed Himself to him.

Prabhupāda: Now, suppose Muhammad has heard God. He is prophet. So whatever he is speaking about his experience, you are accepting. Similarly, if somebody has seen Him, if he says that "God is like this," why you should not accept? In this way talk. God can be seen as God can be heard. You cannot say that God cannot be seen. Why?

Pṛthu-putra: No, what they say is that He Himself doesn't come down here. He can be seen, but He doesn't come down. That is their point.

Prabhupāda: That's his... He doesn't come down. He's already there. He does not come down. Just like the sun. The sun does not come down before me, but you can see him. In this way give them enlightenment. Sun doesn't require to come down, but sun is so bright and so prominent that you can see. Similarly, God doesn't require to come down. He's already present. Simply we have to make our eyes to see Him. Premāïjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. When one is competent enough by developing his love for God, he can see always. God is visible everywhere. Aṇòāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati. He's everywhere. So there is no difficulty to see. But simply one has to possess such purified eyes to see Him. Otherwise He can be seen anywhere. He can be seen within the atom even. Aṇòāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. That is God. He is present everywhere, but we must have the purified eyes to see, we must have the purified ears to hear Him. Otherwise God is everywhere.

Pṛthu-putra: So in order to purify their vision, chanting and prasāda will be sufficient.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: We should not talk about following rules and things like this.

Prabhupāda: No. When there is talk, then you can talk reasonably, that "If God can be heard, God can be seen also, God can be touched also, to a different prophet."

Pṛthu-putra: Only to the very determined and serious person we can ask them to give up meat-eating and things like this in this kind of countries?

Prabhupāda: No. No. Don't say about that directly.

Pṛthu-putra: Don't say.

Prabhupāda: No. You can say indirectly that "God is the father of all living entities. He's the supreme father. God does not like that the weaker living entities should be killed for the satisfaction of the stomach. But when there is no alternative, then the stronger animal can take. Because even one takes vegetables, that is also eating another animal, another living being. So therefore, human being must use discretion, that 'If I can live in this way, why shall I kill one important animal?' That is human intelligence." In this way you have to preach. And besides that, according to our Bhagavad-gītā, God says, "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam." He never said, "Give Me meat. Give me egg." So we are devotee to Kṛṣṇa. So we give Him this vegetables, milk, and so many nice things, and take prasādam. In this way don't quarrel with them in the beginning.

Pṛthu-putra: No. I never did, anyway.

Prabhupāda: The philosophy is that jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That doesn't not mean I can eat my son. There is discrimination. So here is an important animal, cow, who gives us milk. We drink milk. So it's not good. But if there is no other way--you have to starve--then what can be done?

Pṛthu-putra: For example, for that boy who is chanting now in Egypt, he has his beads, but his chanting is effective even though he's still eating meat sometimes with his family? Or...

Prabhupāda: So let him chant. Gradually he'll get...

Pṛthu-putra: Because I told him, "You should continue your study, your school. Otherwise your parents will be agitated. And just do whatever you were usually doing, but just chant and read." Because he has our books.

Prabhupāda: That is beginning. That's all right.

Pṛthu-putra: Because I've found in these universities, the educated persons, they're very interested about philosophy coming from India.

Prabhupāda: Gradually they'll be more interested. So handle them with little care.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Has to be handled with very much care actually. But I went in this dhoti even and they were not so...

Prabhupāda: Happy.

Pṛthu-putra: ...surprised. No, no, they were not so surprised. They were wondering how can I wear such a dress. So, but the difficulty is they immediately associate with the idea that I was a religious man, being in such a dress.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in Muhammadan country also, there is dress like this. They are called peet.(?)

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. They have these big robes. When they go to the mosque, they put on the robes. In Cairo there is ten thousand mosques. It's incredible. Ten thousand mosques.

Prabhupāda: They're religious.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. And they come in for the prayer five times a day. They give up immediately whatever they are doing. I saw myself in barber shop, one barber he was getting... (break)

Prabhupāda: To present your case. Comparative study means impartially make comparison. There is no knowledge of God in there. They're all bogus. You cannot say that. But actually they... What do they know about God? They have simply a vague idea. So what is the use of comparison. Then you have to give your judgment--"It is all bogus." That they will not like to hear. But actually that is the position. What complain? What do they know about God? Simply they have got some idea, the Christianity, Muhammadanism, Hind..., everyone. Even Hinduism, they do not know. Therefore they worship so many demigods and ultimately they make nirākāra. Nobody knows God. This is the, perhaps, first time in the history of the world that we are presenting, "Here is God." Here is God. Nobody presented, neither they know it.

Gargamuni: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: In India, the Māyāvādīs, they have no idea. "Nirākāra." What is the nonsense, nirākāra? The things are going on, imagination. "You can accept anyone as God." This is going on in India, Hindu religion. They do not know that here is... Kṛṣṇa is God. Only few Vaiṣṇavas, they know what is God. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu. Otherwise nobody knows. That is the defect. They do not know God; they do not know what God wants. So where is religion? There is no religion. Bogus. Cheating. They do not know about God, and they do not know what God wants. Then where is the religion? All bogus. They have created something, mano-dharma, mental concoction. Otherwise how they can kill animals, all other religion killing animals. What do they know about God? God... They say, "Supreme father." Eh, and animal has... He's not son. So wherefrom the animal came? If God is supreme father, then He is not father of the animals?

Pṛthu-putra: He's father of everyone.

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-yoniṣu: "In all forms of life, they are My... I am the supreme father." This is God. He does not say that "Only Hindus or Indians or only human beings are My sons." No. He says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya. Kṛṣṇa is loving the calf and also loving the gopīs. That is God. We have to study intelligently. Why God should make discrimination? He's taking care of the cows. He's taking care of the trees. He's taking care of the fruits, flowers, everyone. That is God. And everyone is loving Him. The calves, the cows, even the trees, giving fruit, flower--"Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." (aside) Sit down.

Gargamuni: I have put the books back. I gave them some other books. They had some Bhāgavatams. (break)

Prabhupāda: Then you have to say that you have no idea what is God. Then they will be offended. Better not, that not to say. (laughs) We know it, that's all.

Pṛthu-putra: Just introduce it as it is. Just introduce as it is.

Prabhupāda: Let us with logic, philosophy, talk. There is no conception of God throughout the whole world. Vague idea.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes. Because in the description of Koran, what they think about spiritual world is like heavenly planets. It's all the opposite of what they experience now. Now they are living in a desert, so they think when we are going to get liberation we'll be full of water and beautiful women giving you honey. You don't have to work. This is their... This is described in Koran.

Prabhupāda: No, that is heaven.

Pṛthu-putra: Yes, it's heaven.

Prabhupāda: But do they think that there is eternal life?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They think?

Pṛthu-putra: They say that eternal life is going on there.

Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact.

Pṛthu-putra: If they perform their duty nicely here...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: That means work, keep a family and do their prayers five times a day nicely, following the Koran, they will go there after.

Prabhupāda: That is also. Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Hari-śauri: I think you mentioned last year when we were in Māyāpura that you dreamt once about a planet where pious Muhammadans go. You were telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. From Bhāgavata there is. (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         January 31, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                   481630

Prabhupāda: ...obedient to God--that means offer sacrifices--then there will be regular rain. And if there is regular rain, any damn land is good for any purpose. Land has been made bad because there is no regular rain. They... Why the desert is? If there is regular rain, the desert will be also fertile. So it is gradually becoming desert. The whole world will be desert. No production. Suffer. Make your scientific research, godless. All rascals, full of rascals... (horn beeping--break) There is a proposal. You know that? Just see how great rascals they are. They'll import water.

Gurukṛpā: They have done that in California. They have piped water into the desert and made it the most fertile place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is desert? Desert means no water. There is no rain.

Gargamuni: In Israel, which is a desert, they are exporting food all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Every land will be fertile and usable if there is water. That's all. They are making scientific research.

Satsvarūpa: So if they can bring water by pipe, then they don't need yajïa.

Prabhupāda: That is also another foolishness. How much water he'll carry by pipe? (aside:) Where is pole. Take water from God. That is sufficient. Navadit tarims ca.(?) When there is water supplied by God, where there is no need of water there will be water. Just like on the hills, on the mountains, there is no need of water. In the ocean there is no need of water. But the God... "All right, take water here also." That is God's gift. You rascal, how much water you have got that you transport by pipe and this and that...? All rascals. Mūòha. They can simply address as rascals. That's all. They can simply address as rascals. That's all. That is my language, always these are all rascals. Godless means mūòha, rascal, duṣkṛtina. They will attempt so many things, simply waste their time and energy. Duṣkṛtina. Because they are rascals. Mūòha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. And a human being should have intelligence, but they are lower, lowest status of the human being. Mūòha, duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ narādhamāḥ. "No, the university education..." Māyayāpahṛta-jïānāḥ. Everything is analytically spoken. Why all these things? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because godless, no intelligence. Anyone who is godless, he has no intelligence. This is the conclusion. They are intelligent amongst the similar rascals. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. He's intelligese among the dogs, among the camels, among the hogs, and the asses. They will praise them, "Oh, you are so intelligent. You are so educated." Not human being. Just like dog receives his master, "Gow, gow, gow, gow." (makes growling sounds) So what is that reception, dog's reception? Similarly, these intelligent men are intelligent amongst a class of men who are compared with dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not human being. If some man praises them that "You are so big. You are so big leader," he's also amongst this group. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. This is grave thing. Let understand it, that anyone who is godless, who has no idea what is God, he is a rascal. Immediately take him that he's a rascal. He may be prime minister, he may be president, he may be scientist, but we shall take him as rascal number one. This is our first understanding. Bokā. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, bokā. So at that time I was thinking, "Everyone is bokā?" (laughing) Guru Mahārāja says, "Everyone..." "Even Rabindranath Tagore, he is also bokā?" Later on I could under..., "Yes. Everyone is bokā."

Satsvarūpa: You were surprised that he was saying at first, "Everyone is rascal."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Satsvarūpa: We were all too. When you said Gandhi, we were shocked because we thought he was a great saint. And he's also rascal.

Gurukṛpā: When you say it in public... In private meeting you say... The other night you said that this Mansingh(?) was a rascal, everyone was...

Prabhupāda: Who? Who? Whom I said?

Gurukṛpā: Mansingh.

Prabhupāda: Munsi,(?) ah, yes. (laughs)

Gurukṛpā: Everybody was, "Is it true?"

Prabhupāda: He did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. And from his character he's a rascal. I know that.

Hari-śauri: The one thing that shocks the Indians the most is Vivekananda.

Prabhupāda: Because they're rascals. Modern people in India, they are all rascals. Whole population is bokā.

Gargamuni: No. The Marwaris don't like him because he was a chicken-eater.

Prabhupāda: Marwaris are little religious. They...

Gargamuni: They never talk about Vivekananda. They don't like him.

Prabhupāda: He was rascal number one. He brought three women with whom he had intimate connection. That is very easy to make intimate connection with woman in America. With money also. He brought. And with their money. Aurobindo also, the same thing. With woman's money they became rich, not like me, with hard labor of writing books and selling. I could also do. There was chance. But this is not my business to make intimate relation with woman and get money. I could do. There was chance. When attempt was failed, the man who introduced that woman to me, he one day said, "I have seen many swamis, but none like you." (laughter)

Gargamuni: They advise you to grow a beard and to wear Western suit, the other swamis. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...in a different style. (break) ...money. These rascals are also after woman and money, in a different style. Asat eka strī-saìgī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately rejects him, that "He's a rascal. He's after women." Immediately. Asat strī-saìgī. Two kinds of rascals--nondevotee of Kṛṣṇa and woman-hunter--reject immediately. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... The sannyāsa life is... What is that? Cent percent, no connection with woman. That is sannyāsa. What we have renounced? We have renounced... We are using the motorcar, we are using this machine, we are eating, we are sleeping in nice room--what is the renouncement? Only renouncement is no connection with woman. That is the real platform of renouncement. If one can renounce woman's connection, then he's liberated man. That is very, very difficult. (break) Except myself, they go for woman and money, that's all, in foreign countries. This is the position. This Vishnu, Vishnu... Vishnananda, Vishnu-ananda? Now what is that? One yogi is in Montreal?

Satsvarūpa: Vishnu-something-ananda.

Prabhupāda: He also is after women. That's all.

Satsvarūpa: Swami Sac-cid-ananda.

Prabhupāda: He is also.

Satsvarūpa: He was exposed with fourteen-year-old girl.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see.

Satsvarūpa: And Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: He is openly.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. He comes with his women.

Prabhupāda: He is openly. His philosophy is how to enjoy women, tantric.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. He advertises sex for..., yoga for two. He has a special price that a couple can come and learn tantra-yoga in America. And then Guru Maharaj-ji, he married.

Prabhupāda: Tantra-yoga means they will have sex, and he will be able not to discharge. That is tantra-yoga. The woman likes a man who does not easily discharge. This is tantra-yoga. So he is teaching that art or science. They will prove their tantric success that while sex there is no discharge.

Satsvarūpa: I spoke to one of them and said that for spiritual life you had to refrain from sex, and he said, "No. If you do this enough, then you will not have any more desire." Otherwise if you just refrain, that is not as thorough.

Prabhupāda: So many things going on. Very difficult to lead spiritual life.

sandarśanaṁ viṣayiṇām atha yoṣitāṁ ca

hā hanta hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu

Actually one who is serious going back to home, back to Godhead--for such person, one should be niṣkiïcana, no connection with these material woman and money. Niṣkiïcanasya. (break) But I am not collecting money for sense gratification. For preaching work. Kṛṣṇa-sambandhe... Kṛṣṇa sabaya yāhā haya anukula, viṣaya boliyā tāhā haya phul.(?) The anything which is favorable to my preaching work, that is not viṣaya. Ta phul.(?) Then that is mistake. Why the air is misty? That... (break) Similarly, you can c. You have to see it, what for they are killing. Stalin was killing for his own sense gratification. He wanted to maintain himself in the position, and anyone going against him, he would kill. That was not for the citizens' benefit. For his own benefit. Therefore he's a criminal. Just like soldier is killing hundreds of thousands of other soldiers. He is being awarded, "Oh, you are brave." And as soon as he kills one man for his own--he is hanged. So we have to see what is the cause that Arjuna fought for Kṛṣṇa, he became a devotee. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si. Very dear friend. What is the business? To kill. There are different.

Satsvarūpa: Isn't it true also that, in the Kṛṣṇa conscious state, that a rascal, he may be allowed to live if he does his rascaldom but within the regulations. Like there's even allowance for eating meat and for going to the prostitute. Not that he'll be automatically killed, but...

Prabhupāda: No, who said like that?

Satsvarūpa: Well, there are some purports in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that say there'll always be a class of men who will do this thing, so the prostitute is natural in society. That will keep him from at least going to...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Because there are rascals, they will pollute their homely wives and sisters, you can allow to go to the prostitute.

Satsvarūpa: So it's not that they are automatically killed, but at least they must...

Prabhupāda: They are killing... They are... Prostitution... But to save the society from their pollution, the concession is there, "Go to prostitute." They are killing themselves.

Satsvarūpa: Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, he did not kill the Kali either when he found...

Prabhupāda: He was ready to kill. When he surrendered, he gave him some shelter. (end)

 

Room Conversation                               January 31, 1977 Bhubaneswar                                                        481998

(break) ...correctly. Then the dīkṣā-guru (microphone moving). If you like... Then he is dīkṣā-guru. Then guru. So śikṣā-guru becomes dīkṣā-guru. But guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa and teaches properly. That's all.

Guest (1): Are you knowing people take dīkṣā from many gurus?

Prabhupāda: No, dīkṣā-guru is one. But śikṣā-guru can be many.

Guest (1): But suppose dīkṣā gurus or people take one mantra from one guru and other one...

Prabhupāda: Then you have not selected guru. You have selected some rascal. Guru can be..., cannot be different. Guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya. Anyone who knows the science... So suppose if you want to become medical man, you must go to a qualified medical man to learn. And if you go to a pānwālā, what he'll teach you? That is your mistake. Guru cannot be different. Guru is one, one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. If he does not know, then he is not guru. Why should you go there?

Guest (1): How should we know that he knows about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That requires your fortune. Little intelligence. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. That intelligence is for the most fortunate person. That is not ordinary thing. But guru means who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. If you go to a bogus man, that is your misfortune. So this is the description of guru, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement.

kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya

It doesn't matter whether he is a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he remains guru.

Guest (1): Science of Kṛṣṇa. If he knows about Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, or anything else...

Prabhupāda: To know about Kṛṣṇa. It is not also difficult. Science of Kṛṣṇa is there, Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa speaks Himself. So to know the science of Kṛṣṇa is also not difficult. But because we are unfortunate, we go to rascal, and they interpret Bhagavad-gītā in a rascaldom way, and we are missing. So you should be very careful not to go to a rascal. Then your mission will be successful. If you want to purchase gold, you must go to a shop where actually gold is purchased, gold. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is not also very difficult. That I have repeatedly said. Those who are interpreting in their own way, Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal; he's not guru. (loud kīrtana in background) As soon as he says an interpretation, "I think like this," you reject that. Why should we think like that? You should preach what Kṛṣṇa says. Then you are right. Why should you say something which Kṛṣṇa does not say? Then you are misguided. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He's not kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā. So he's cheating. That is going on. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and these rascals say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa person." So he's a rascal. He's taking Kṛṣṇa's book and preaching against it. So what will be benefit if you go to such a rascal? Therefore there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru because if he's actually guru, he'll not say anything which Kṛṣṇa has not spoken. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. So guru is that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa: "You become a guru." And what is the function of the guru? Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. That is there. You haven't got to manufacture any instruction. Whatever is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, you say. You try to convince him with logic, with philosophy, with your knowledge, same thing, not philosophy. That is intelligence. And suppose Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Before that, Kṛṣṇa has described everything, why you should surrender to Kṛṣṇa. At last He says, "You surrender to Me." So there is no difficulty. Immediately Kṛṣṇa does not say, "You surrender to Me." But after describing everything--karma-yoga, jïāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, so many things, politics, sociology, religion, everything--at last He says that "This is the most confidential part. You surrender unto Me." So one who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, how he can become guru? He's a cheater. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he's actually jïānavān. And this jïānavān is possible after many, many births; not so easily, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But if he's there, such a person--vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ--he is mahātmā. That is mahātmā, not by stamping, anyone, a person, can become mahātmā. This is the symptom of mahātmā, one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa fully. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So that is guru, mahātmā, who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such mahātmā is guru. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. The guru has no other business than kṛṣṇa-bhajana. So that you have to see. You have to learn. You have to appreciate with persons who are actually engaged in kṛṣṇa-bhajana. Then you'll understand. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgaḥ. Sādhu means bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. He's sādhu. Who? Who has no other business than Kṛṣṇa. Mix with such sādhu who are actually executing kṛṣṇa-bhajana. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgaḥ. This is the description of the sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. These things are there. There is no question of being misled. But if you purposefully mislead yourself, who can check? In the beginning you may commit some mistake, but when you study Bhagavad-gītā--who is sādhu, who is mahātmā, who is guru--then why shall we make, commit mistake again? If you have done mistake--you have gone to a rascal who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious--then when you read Bhagavad-gītā, you can understand. Why you are misled? Why you should be misled? If it is written on the road, "Keep to the left," why should you be misled and go to the right? Go to the left. Then you are not misled. So here it is said, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. A mahātmā means who is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you accept somebody as mahātmā who does not speak about Kṛṣṇa? Then you are misleading yourself. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Everything, direction, is there. Why you create your own mahātmā? If you want to be cheated, who can check you? That is your fault. In Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly said,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jïānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā...

That is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Sādhur... Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He's mahātmā. He's sādhu. We shall go to him. Why shall we go to a rascal? Simple directions. So if you are misled, if you are cheated, whose fault it is? But if you want to be cheated, who can check? Even though somebody by mistake has gone to a rascal, the book is there. As soon as you find out, "Here is a rascal who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, and I have come to him," reject him. That is stated in the śāstra. Gurur apy avaliptasya kāryākāryam ajānantaḥ parityāgo vidhīyate.(?) Even by mistake you have come to a rascal who does not know how to become guru, you can reject him. Why should you stick to him? Reject him. And by mistake I have come to rascal. Why shall I continue to accept him as guru? Cāṇakya Paṇòita said, tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam: "Give up all rascals. Associate with sādhus." If you do not do that, that is your fault. Tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam. We have to mix with sādhu. Sādhu means who are twenty-four-hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Things are there. Why should you mix with asādhu? Then how can you understand? Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saìgaḥ. If you have got little faith, then next business is to associate with sādhus.

Guest (2): Daily how many times you'll utter the names of Lord Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. There is no question of "How many times?" But if you have got other business, make some minimum quantity.

Guest (2): Minimum?

Prabhupāda: Quantity. Minimum number.

Satsvarūpa: If you can't chant all day--you have other business--at least make a quota and chant that every day. In our... Prabhupāda's disciples, we promise to chant at least sixteen rounds on the beads, japa-mālā, every day. One round is 108 mantras.

Guest (2): Sixteen rounds.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Sixteen of those rounds at least.

Prabhupāda: It comes to twenty-five thousand. So Haridāsa Öhākura was chanting three lakhs. That is not possible. Twenty-five thousand minimum. Now you can increase as much as you like.

Guest (3): Is there a difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No difference. Rāma is Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa is Bhagavān. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. Bhagavān has got many incarnations: Nṛsiṁhadeva, Varāhadeva, Rāma, Rāma, Paraśurāma, Balarāma, Dāśarathi Rāma. So whomever you like, you can worship. (pause)

Guest (5): Should you count every day how much you do japa?

Satsvarūpa: Should you count every day how much japa you do?

Prabhupāda: That is... He's doing at least sixteen times.

Guest (4): No, suppose if we don't count?

Prabhupāda: No, the mālā is counting.

Guest (4): No. Suppose if we don't follow it, it's not beneficial?

Prabhupāda: Beneficial, but you must fill up your promise, vow, that "I shall chant." Dṛòha-vrata. First be dṛòha-vrata. If your chanting is not finished, you should give up your sleeping. You must try to finish. That is called dṛòha-vrata. So whatever promise, quota--"I must finish it." Stop all other business. That is called dṛòha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛòha-vratāḥ. Find out this verse, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha. No, then satataṁ kīrtayanto mām.

Satsvarūpa: Not mahātmānas? Next one. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛòha-vratāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Dṛòha-vrata. If you have no dṛòha-vrata, (laughing) that is no vow. So that dṛòha-vrata means you must promise that "I shall chant at least, minimum, so many times." That is called dṛòha-vrata.

Satsvarūpa: "With determination."

Prabhupāda: With determination. Otherwise, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Satatam means twenty-four hours. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam. But that we cannot do. Therefore to keep dṛòha-vrata, we have fixed up a certain quantity. Chant that. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. About the Gosvāmīs--saìkhyā-pūrvaka: "So many times." Not only chanting, also offering obeisances. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Nati means praṇati. "I shall offer obeisances hundred times." Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. Still in Rādhā-kuṇòa, Vṛndāvana, you'll see many devotees. They offer, counting, flat, so many times. So we have to take some labor. It is not so easy thing that you realize (chuckling) God so easily. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. The valuable time of human life should be utilized only for cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect. No other business. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. That is sarva-dharmān. But if you cannot do that, all right, make

minimum: "So many times I shall chant. So many times I shall offer obeisances." Make some dṛòha-vrata. Then gradually it will be successful.

Guest (5): (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa--twenty-four hours. Japa-tapa. Tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam. Japa means tapa, tapasya. And that is dṛòha-vrata. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa. Tapasya begins with brahmacarya. There is no tapasya, there is no brahmacarya, there is no dṛòha-vrata, there is no understanding, and they are becoming guru. Just see these Europeans, Americans. Their life beginning was meat-eating. And they have given up everything. This is tapasya. And we shall eat everything, do everything... Yato mata tato patha. "Whatever I like, I do, and still a devotee." What is this nonsense? Jaya.

 

Room Conversation(3)                            January 31, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                     481804

Yogeśvara: Well, at the farm there is not as much of a new bhakta program as in Paris. So the new men are encouraged to stay in Paris to get fixed up first.

Prabhupāda: So new... When they are trained up, they can come, live, especially gṛhasthas. My point is whether the farm is attractive. Not very much.

Yogeśvara: The potential is wonderful.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I'm asking. Potential is wonderful, so why they are not attracted to live in the farm and be self-independent and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? That is our farm project. Our farm project is they should be satisfied with simple living. That is nice living. If you get milk, if you get fruit, if you get grain and open air, it is very healthy life. Why they should not be attracted?

Yogeśvara: It is still the beginning, and because it's the beginning, it is a little difficult sometimes.

Prabhupāda: That may be. But this should be our aim. We should not be attracted by the modern city life. Simplified life. Save time and utilize for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect life. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana life means agriculturist, cowherd boys, uneducated girls, cows and calves, and tree, fruits. This is Vṛndāvana. The center is Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: Simple living.

Prabhupāda: But they are the topmost devotees. These (chuckling) uneducated, without any town life, cow-men, they are Kṛṣṇa's best friend. Unsophisticated, no education, but love intense--that is perfect. That attracted Kṛṣṇa more. Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya na padam ekaṁ na kartavya... Kṛṣṇa is so much attached to Vṛndāvana that He goes nowhere... What is that? They are not educated girls, up-to-date fashion, (indistinct) or nothing. Crude. As soon as there was blowing of the flute, immediately they began to run towards Kṛṣṇa. Somebody is taking care of children, somebody is engaged in boiling milk, and somebody was even lying down with her husband. Still, immediately... Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Kṛṣṇa--that is Vṛndāvana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa. And other things--very simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk, and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death. This is not civilization. This is killing civilization. Human being got the opportunity to get out of these clutches of birth and death. They do not understand. They're so rascal, they do not understand how they are implicated in this cycle of birth and death, nor they do take it seriously, that this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. They are so blind rascals, they do not see that this is real suffering. They do not know it. Simply theorizing, making plan, and they do not know what is the suffering. Such a rascal civilization. So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way. That's a very nice place, center of Europe and very nice place. What is the condition of rainfall?

Yogeśvara: Last summer was dry, but it was not so much dangerous for us. And now it is steady.

Prabhupāda: So there must be rainfall. And if we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there will be rainfall.

Yogeśvara: That will be true everywhere we go.

Prabhupāda: There'll be rainfall. And then even barren land will be fertile. They do not know this. They are importing water. These rascals, they continue sinful life and import water. There are oceans and seas. Why (chuckling) you scientist cannot bring the water, make cloud and pour water? Where is that science? What do they say about it?

 

 

 

 

Morning Walk                                           February 2, 1977, Bhubaneswar                                                   482293

Prabhupāda: The learned scholars, they used to live in the forest. Vyāsadeva was writing in śāmyaprāśa cottage. (chuckling) That is university. And no university can produce such scholar or student, not imperfect. They're all rascals. What are the values of these MA, Ph.D? (break) It is humbug. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. Actually they're vimūòhān. Mūòha means rascal and vimūòhān means special rascals. (laughs) Māyā-sukhāya, for some sense gratification--big, big arrangement. And next life he's going to be a dog. That's all. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking of these rascals, vimūòhān, especially rascals, that they are arranging so gorgeous thing for material happiness and forgetting their spiritual identity." Śoce: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me there is no problem." Tato vimukha-cetasaḥ. "Because they are bereft of God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are doing, engaged in these big, big projects, although (they) live for twenty years or fifty years utmost, perhaps. And eternal life? They do not know." Vimūòhān: "specially rascal." The cats and dogs are rascals, but they are animals. They cannot know anything. But they got this human form of life, and still, they are acting as rascal. Therefore vimūòhān, "specially rascal." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Such a rascal. (break) ...where charity is given, to be given, give him. That's all. Dātavyam. (break) "...by the people, for the people." And what is the people condition? They are naked. They have no good house, no food. And these men, they must have very good bungalow, very good, comfortable life. This is Kali-yuga, means "Plunder the citizens, take money from them, and live comfortably at the cost of the poor citizens."

Gargamuni: Most of these bungalows here are offices. Government offices.

Prabhupāda: That I said. They are living very comfortably, and the citizens... We have seen the other day, Cuttack, the marwan (?) shop, congested.

Gurukṛpā: Dirty.

Prabhupāda: Dirty. Actually they are earning for them. Taxation. They have got law, and they are advertising...

Satsvarūpa: "Don't cheat on your tax."

Prabhupāda: "Don't cheat..."

Satsvarūpa: "Or you'll be persecuted."

Prabhupāda: Who is cheating? They're cheating. Just see. They are working hard; they are cheating. And they, by taxation getting money and living very comfortable, they are not cheating.

Gargamuni: They are greater cheaters.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kali-yuga.

dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra

dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā duḥkha lāge haspar(?)

Tulasī dāsa has said, "In the Kali-yuga, dudha, milk--no customer. And surā, wine--baitale vikāra.(?) It is sitting down in one place, and customers are going there: "Give me. Give me one after another, one after..." Surā, wine, is so impure that it should not be touched. That is selling in one place very comfortably. Dudha? Gali gali phire: "Will you take milk? Will you take milk?" Dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra, dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā. Kali-yuga dhanya tomāra.(?) "Your pastime..." Duḥkha lāge haspar, "I am very sorry, but at the same time, I am laughing." (laughs) "Although I am very sorry, but still, I am laughing." This is Kali-yuga.

dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra

dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā duḥkha lāge haspar(?)

And in Vedic civilization, animal is being attempted to be killed--"Oh! Who are you?" "Kali-yuga." "Get out!" This is rāja, king. And there is nobody to protest. So many animals are being killed. This is Kali-yuga. Why? "They are my subject. You cannot touch." Kṛṣṇa is embracing gopīs and the calves also, not that He has selected only gopīs to be embraced. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya. "Anyone who loves Me... Loves or not, I am protecting." Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's giving protection to everyone. And if he is a devotee, a special protection. This is God, and government means God's representative, God's, not people's representative. Government does not mean people's representative. Government means God's representative. That is government. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for the loafer class. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Unless the kings and big, big stalwart leaders understand this science, how they will lead? Because these leaders, they do not understand Bhagavad-gītā, they make their own plan. Therefore so much catastrophe, chaotic condition. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Big, big government officer, big, big kings, presidents, ministers. They should understand it. And government is making law, "No Bhagavad-gītā in the school, college," because they do not know the value. (break)

Room Conversation                              February 3, 1977, Bhubaneshwar                                                      482423

Prabhupāda: ...India because the Japanese people, they were trying to expand. Two, three wars they tried, they could not. They wanted to take this advantage, Subash Bose's cooperation. But their motive was different. And therefore they killed Subash Bose. Subash Bose was... (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in Manipur. So they wanted to construct some sort of memorial building but, somehow, India government is not granting them. So instead of doing that, they were just collecting the bones. They found out some bones by some... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Bhūtejyā. This is called bhūtejyā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they carried those bones along with them. Just in the village where I lived many Japanese bones were found. And they were coming very frequently to collect the bones.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gargamuni: When we were in Dvārakā they also showed us some shells.

Prabhupāda: How these Japanese died? In Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They came. I think in the war.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they attacked Manipur, and they were killed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the main Second World War was in Manipur towards the end.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Towards the end. The Japanese were trying to enter India, and Subash Bose was there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, many people saw Subash Bose.

Prabhupāda: So Japanese planned that "Kill Subash Bose, and let us enter." Subash Bose wanted Japanese help to enter India. The Japanese took this opportunity that "We shall enter India and kill Subash Bose." That was their trick.

Bhāgavata: So then they killed him. They killed him in that plane crash.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Japanese had no honesty, dishonest. You see? They thought "This is the opportunity that this Indian leader wants our help. So with his help we enter India. And this is the opportunity to occupy India." Because they are searching after land. They are very poor in land. They have no place, and very little land. Therefore they are now going to Hawaii to settle down. They have no place.

Bhāgavata: How did Subash Bose get from India to Germany?

Prabhupāda: That is also political. He was, what is called, interned at home.

Bhāgavata: By the British. Kept in his house.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So there was the minister Nizamuddin, I think, he helped him to go out. He was going for evening walk with police force and other. So it became accustomed. Police became lenient, in the meantime slipped. And in a dress of a Kābuli, Kābuli-wālā, Pāṭhan he crossed India. In this way he went there.

Bhāgavata: I heard he took the dress of a Muslim?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is called... Yes. This is called pāṭhan. So after going outside India, he organized this INA, Indian National Army. And Hitler helped him. Tojo also wanted to help him, but he had a plan.

Bhāgavata: Different motive. So Hitler, he had no...

Prabhupāda: No Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation the, some of these teachers' noncooperation what do they care for? But when they saw that "The soldiers are now going to join this non..." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly, that "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." That's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was... It was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded. That "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."

Gargamuni: That Mrs. Lalita Bose, she compared you to Nethaji, that you went outside of India and organized an army, (laughter) then came back to India. She said that. She's the grand-daughter? That Lalita Bose?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Niece.

Gargamuni: She said, "Your Gurujī is just like Nethaji. He went outside of India and organized army of Vaiṣṇavas."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. Resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Kṛṣṇa will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakāra--we don't want to exploit anyone--Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of māyā and they are kept in darkness. What is this? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā, and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economics and making them, training them as demons and rākṣasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakāra.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

And this is India's mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. So... And Kṛṣṇa also confirms, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati, na ca tasmād... You'll be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Simply go on sincerely working for this movement. Nobody can defeat you. Take all strategic point, fighting with māyā, and become victorious. From any point of view, come on. We shall fight with māyā. It is a great declaration of fight with māyā. Not with māyā. Our fight is with the demons. Māyā is servant, maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. She can withdraw by the order. But she cannot withdraw because people are demons. So this European opposition, American opposition is that the demons are now feeling the pressure. That is recognition that "Now it is a fight. We have to defend."

Nanda-kumāra: The outcome of the battle is already decided. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā, we've already won. We just have to keep, keep fighting.

Prabhupāda: They are now feeling the pressure of the opposite party. So fight is fight. When there is fight, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Some of our soldiers will die. It doesn't matter." You don't expect that not a single soldier of your party will not die. No, some of them will die. Still fight must go on. Fight cannot be stopped. So fight like brave soldiers, Kṛṣṇa will help you. Don't make any compromise. No truce with these demons. Fight must be. Our fighting weapon is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That's all. Sāìgopāìgāstra-pārṣadam. Astra. That astra is yajïaiḥ saìkīrtana, this saìkīrtana, this astra weapon. They're now afraid of this astra more than atomic weapon. Is it not?

                                                                                                                                                                        482480

Prabhupāda: Just see Jesus Christ--crucified. What was his fault? He was crucified. Of course, he was not crucified. Nobody can crucify him. But the people are so thankless...

Hari-śauri: That they wanted to do that.

Prabhupāda: Such a great personality, son of God. He wanted to deliver God consciousness. And return, he was crucified. We don't take Jesus Christ very insignificantly. We give him all honor. He's representative of God. He tried to preach according to the time, place, circumstances, country, people. Otherwise he is representative of God.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. He only preached for three years too.

Prabhupāda: He could not preach even but still, in three years what he did is wonderful.

Hari-śauri: Yes, He's world famous for the last two thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?

Hari-śauri: I don't... That was at one of those...

Prabhupāda: The priest meeting.

Hari-śauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.

Prabhupāda: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.

Hari-śauri: It's just his nonsense followers.

Prabhupāda: Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Such person, great personality, why shall think of him as ordinary human being? That is nārakī-buddhi.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is preaching God's glories, he is guru. So how can I decry him? He is guru. Tad vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. Unless one is guru how he can preach about God?

Hari-śauri: Yes. Actually we have a much better appreciation of Jesus than anyone.

Prabhupāda: More yes. Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Because we actually understand the value of the guru.

Prabhupāda: We are the greatest Christian. We follow his instruction; we accept him as guru.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Without following the guru's instructions, there's no question of appreciating who he is or his work.

Prabhupāda: And this word, Jesus, the Christ, it is not?

Hari-śauri: Well, originally they say it was "Jesus of the Christ."

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Christ means...

Hari-śauri: God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So they... Originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That Christ is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Same word.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Kṛṣṇa. No, from his teaching, we can understand he is representative of God.

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. What he was teaching is exactly in accord with what we're doing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: I was reading some of his instructions, what he was giving to his original disciples. And he gave them examples, that "The birds, they are not worrying about their food. God is supplying. So you should not worry for your food. You should simply go out and preach."

Prabhupāda: He said like that?

Hari-śauri: Yes. He said, "So what should you worry if you go out and preach? Do you think that God will not give to you?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: "He is giving to the birds."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, our mission.

Hari-śauri: Yes. And he told them, "You should not worry for your food, for your clothing, for somewhere to stay. If you preach then God will look after all those things."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact.

Hari-śauri: And he had them give up everything. They had a common pool. Anyone that came to join him, they would pool all their resources and share it among them. Anybody who was with nothing, he would get something. They would get food and clothing, like that.

Prabhupāda: We are planning like that. "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Hari-śauri: Yes. We have no objection for...

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: ...feeding. He was an actual Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Teaching Vaiṣṇava principles.

Prabhupāda: If he has taken sometimes fish, there was no way. What can be done? Not for his sense gratification.

Hari-śauri: Even that's not certain, that he took fish anyway.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes it is said.

Hari-śauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.

Prabhupāda: Yes, what can be done?

Hari-śauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there's no good water.

Prabhupāda: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.

Hari-śauri: Yes. (laughs) Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.

Prabhupāda: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Most of my disciples they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant... That means... The Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: I'm not sure about... I don't know much about the history of Protestants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That King John, who started this Protestant movement? Some king in England.

Hari-śauri: Yes, it was started like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.

Hari-śauri: That was the Church of England, Henry the VIII.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the VIII. He started this Protestant.

Hari-śauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

Prabhupāda: But this...

Hari-śauri: So he started the Church of England.

Prabhupāda: ...Protestant group was started by him.

Hari-śauri: I don't know anything about their history.

Prabhupāda: That is the history.

Hari-śauri: There's always been fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics though.

Prabhupāda: Well, fighting must be there. They protested.

Hari-śauri: There's so many Christian sects.

Prabhupāda: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that Church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concord. It is... That place is called Concord. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.

Hari-śauri: She was burnt.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Europe has a big history of...

Prabhupāda: Fighting.

Hari-śauri: Religious fighting.

Prabhupāda: Crusade? Crusade?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.

Prabhupāda: That was a religious fight.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Christians against the Mohammedans. That article of Gurudāsa's was very nice.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hari-śauri: They asked him, "Do you think that another religion will help Ireland?" criticizing that "We've already got two religions and they're fighting. What do you think you're going to do?" So then he said, "Well, actually, it's another way of life, and Ireland could certainly use another way of life." It was a good point. We get a good reception there too, our devotees. People are very pious there because Ireland is still very simple.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just... They're in ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrels, the same, the same. So why men should be different?

Hari-śauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: On national basis.

Prabhupāda: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always...

Prabhupāda: Simple.

Hari-śauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                  February 12, 1977, Māyāpura                                                       482766

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...milk, you get gobar.

 

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. The other day you were asking me about the wages, labor.

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So our point is the devotees shall work. So there is no program to pay wages.

 

Room Conversation                                  February 14, 1977,Mayapur                                                          483088

Satsvarūpa: Dhīra Kṛṣṇa got a statement from the Brain Research Institute and said the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is very good for the brain.

Hari-śauri: Brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: You have got that?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is brainwash, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, but it is for the good. People are suffering with these dirty things within the brain. We are washing them. That is brainwash actually.

Satsvarūpa: "Indian Brain Research Association, Department of Biochemistry, University of Calcutta. Gentlemen: The Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana mantra used in meditation or chanting of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa has been practiced not only by the Vaiṣṇavas of India, but by most of the Hindus as a regular religious and social practice in Hindu families. Millions of Hindus practice with sublime devotion the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. We are not aware of any case where such practice has resulted in any detrimental effect to the health or mind of anyone. We can submit that the worshiping of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, as being practiced in West Bengal, India, does not differ from that of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. And as such, either of them cannot do any harm to the devotee or to the observer. Further we can add that the rhythmic dance and musical (Bengali:) svara in Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana mantra may have profound beneficial effect on a distorted human mind. These practices do not have any relation with brainwashing, although the word seems to carry no scientific meaning at all. Statement by Professor Ajit K. Mytee. Yours faithfully, J.J. Ghosh, President on behalf of the Indian Brain Research Association."

Prabhupāda: It is good certificate. And University of Calcutta. So you publish this.

                                                                                                                                                                        483108

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now arrange for big festival. There is a program, Manipur. I want to start in that small state varṇāśrama idea. That is my dream. Small state it can be done, brāhmaṇa, kṣatri...

 

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real point. And if the young men, they are taking and they take it seriously, then they will take over government. Yes. That is the real point. Because they want to stop it. But it cannot be stopped. Because the younger generation, they are taking it seriously, it cannot be stopped.

                                                                                                                                                                        483211

Prabhupāda: Anyone who has understood the value of Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is saved. But we should not simply keep ourselves saved. We should think for others. That is para-upakāra. And that you cannot do unless you are in the safe position. Janma sārthaka kari'. If you become polluted, then you cannot do. That is the secret. If you are not polluted, then you can do. Otherwise it will be show only, no effect. This is the secret. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. So, things are very easy, not at all difficult. If you follow, then you can do good to others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This process gives one the strength to carry it forward more and more.

Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He did so. The whole human civilization is on a risky platform.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't see how the present civilization can stand up against our devotees if we remain strong.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It cannot. Prahlāda Mahārāja... Such a gigantic demon could not do anything. He was five years old boy, was sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all, only that strength and he faced the dangerous position of a gigantic demon like Hiraṇyakaśipu. Even the demigods were afraid. So remain like Prahlāda Mahārāja, pure. Nobody can do anything. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So take rest and...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

 

 

 

 

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced                 February 14, 1977, Māyāpura       482819

Satsvarūpa: ...thought they were suppressed.

Prabhupāda: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.

Satsvarūpa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.

Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.

Hari-śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...

Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.

Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...

Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?

Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns.

Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.

Hari-śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...

Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.

Hari-śauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?

Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.

Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiïcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiïcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.

Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda..

.Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.

Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Öhākura to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarūpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... fall down.

Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?

Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.

Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. arcāyām eva harayepūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehatena tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣusa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ

The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: No question of?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement--

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ.

When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness--these things go. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?

Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."

Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.

Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?

Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.

Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupāda: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...

Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hari-śauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.

Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."

Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?

Hari-śauri:

sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ

sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ

yathā vindati tac chṛṇu

"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)

Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...

Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.

Satsvarūpa: If there's no tree?

Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.

Satsvarūpa: Small.

Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken--"Oh, it is very big."

Hari-śauri: I don't follow the analogy.

Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.

Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpura now we have a situation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.

Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpura here now we have that situation, that so many...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?

Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?

Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.

Satsvarūpa: Oh.

Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.

Hari-śauri: The principle we're following.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.

Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimūòha-cetasa indriyārtha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyārtha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mūòho nābhijānāti. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that "Here is the position."

Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now--capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?

Hari-śauri: Proletariat.

Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?

Satsvarūpa: The laborers.

Prabhupāda: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?

Hari-śauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...

Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said... He arranged the battlefield, because the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...

Hari-śauri: Accumulation.

Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield--one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.

Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupāda: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."

Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.

Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.

Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?

Hari-śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of "we." That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.

Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.

Hari-śauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.

Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.

Hari-śauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.

Satsvarūpa: Just like...

Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.

Satsvarūpa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...

Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.

Hari-śauri: That's why we say, "we."

Prabhupāda: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-śauri: Well, again, that's...

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Set the example.

Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a sannyāsī." But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.

                                                                                                                                                                        483064

Mother is for the goat and for you also. So you are cutting the throat of the goat, so why the Mother will not give the chance to the goat to cut your head? Why do you think like that, rascal? "The Mother is kind to me and unkind to the goat?" That means naṣṭa-buddhi, lost intelligence. If you think Mother, then you must think that Mother of the goat also. Why Mother will tolerate? This is justice. Actually the mantra is there, that "Goat, you are sacrificing your life. You get immediately chance of human being." That is his profit. He would have evolved himself in so many lives and then get a human life. But because he's sacrificing his life before Mother, he gets immediately an lift to become a human man. And the human, because he becomes, he has got the right to cut the throat of the man who sacrificed him. This is the mantra. So if you take this risk, do that because how to become a goat, how to become a man, that is in the hands of Mother. That is not in your hand. So Mother, if she gives lift to the goat to become a man and if she degrades you to become a goat, that is in the Mother's hand. You cannot check it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamā... Mother is just to everyone. "All right, this man is cutting your throat. You just become human being and cut his throat. I shall make him a goat." How you can say, "No"? Can you say? And Mother is all-powerful. Then you take the risk. And why Mother will make injustice? The poor goat, you shall cut the throat, and you remain human being, Mother's pet son? What is this logic? She is Mother means she is equal to every son. The goat is also her son; you are also her son. So you are taking advantage of this poor goat, and now he'll get this advantage. You, you become a goat. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. When you are being made into a goat, you cannot check it. That is in the hand of mother. Then what is your answer? Will you take that risk?

Bhavānanda: Not if I'm intelligent.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Therefore anyone who worships the other demigod, they are hṛta-jïānāḥ, there is no sense.

Hari-śauri: Alpa-medhasa.

Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. Yānti deva-vratā devān. You will remain within this material world. That is Mother's kingdom. This external world is controlled by the Mother Durgā. She's in charge of this material world. So if you become a perfect devotee of Mother, you get all good chances in this material world but not eternal life. Within this material world wherever you go everything is limited, either you become Indra or Brahmā, or ant.

 

The first problem is eating. So if you produce like tons, this corn alone can feed everyone. It is so nice food. Corn you can smash, and the powder portion you can use as flour, and the portion which is not powder, the hard portion, you can use as rice. And it is more nutritious than flour, wheat flour, and ordinary rice, and very cheap, cheaper than the ordinary rice and cheaper than the ordinary wheat. But you can utilize it--both dāl, bhāta. Vegetable and fat. From milk you get so much fat. Complete food.

 

Such an important animal. And then, when she passes stool and urine, that is also nice. The milk is nutritious, the stool is useful; the urine is useful. Why this poor animal should be slaughtered? What kind of civilization? Your material desires, eating, sleeping, mating--fulfill it like a gentleman and save time and make spiritual advancement. This is to be introduced. Why you are inventing so strenuous work and spoil time, valuable time of human life? This we want to preach. Save time, be spiritually advanced, and other necessities, make it gentlemanly short-cut. If you save time, you can read all these literatures, understand what is value of life. Therefore, the literature here. Not for all. The brāhmaṇas, educated. And they'll distribute the knowledge by speaking. Others, those who are less intelligent, simply by hearing, they will be guided. Just be convinced what kind of civilization we are trying to introduce. We should not be carried away. Then finished. In order to check others, if we become carried away, (laughing) then finish all business. To save them from being washed away by māyā, if we become washed away, then where is the hope? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. Be strong so that you may not be rascal, and then you can do; others you can check. Otherwise, it will be impossible. How it is possible? A man is drowning. If you are strong enough, you can save. But if you also become drowned, then how you'll save him? So the everything is there. Save yourself, save others. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. First of all save yourself; then try to save others. Or both things can go on simultaneously. The same example. If you want to save somebody who's drowning you must know that I may not be washed away. I have to remain strong; then I can save him."

 

Our mission is very great. People have not understood yet.

 

And who cared for city life in those days? Nobody. Everyone was satisfied in village. General people, they would not come to city. Only servant class.

 

In India the practice was hand grind daily. The women will do that. That's exercise for them, and they keep their body fit and beautiful…No, there is no need oxen. Individually, small grinding--chapki(?). And in the morning they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and grind. (sings) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare... This is very nice process. Whatever they require for the day, they grind fresh. Very nice system… Yaśodāmāyi was doing that, even she is the queen of Nanda Mahārāja, what to speak of other women. Churning milk, grinding the wheat, this is their household.

 

Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute, flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture--Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

 

Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved, and kṣatriya, protection problem solved, and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam. Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work.

 

 

 

Previously they were advanced, all of you. You are simply born because the mission was to be started. Just like in Yadu-vaṁśa Kṛṣṇa ordered all the devotee demigods to "Go and take birth there to help Me." Similarly, you are also... You were born in Europe, America, to help this. Otherwise you were devotees in you past lives. I have explained that in my recent writings. The purport was mām eti: goes to Kṛṣṇa where His pastime is going on, and then they are transferred to the original. So all the devotees picked up and they were placed together where Kṛṣṇa is having His pastimes in either of these innumerable universes.

 

India's material advancement is artificial. They are not fit for it.

 

Read Bhāgavata, repeatedly whole life. Safe. Always. Always, whenever there is time, read, read, read.

 

No, we are not to satisfy the authorities. We have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.

 

The greatest sinful activity is cow slaughter, and they are committing.

 

Even it is not possible to introduce this movement in a large scale, there is no harm. Anyone who takes it, he is happy. It is very difficult. We are not expected that manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, everyone will be able to do it. But the ideal should be there. And it is India's duty to keep this ideal, Indian people's duty, government's duty. That will keep India's prestige in the highest level. Make propaganda like that. Why India should be lowered down unnecessarily while we have got so much stock of knowledge, scientific knowledge? Am I right?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why? It doesn't matter, only a few persons may take, but the ideal must be there… And preach all over the world. For me it will be difficult to move everywhere, but so long my life is there, I'll give you hint. You develop it…I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state--varṇāśrama ideal… Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty…If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be a great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaiṣṇava state…Show their policemen, all with tilaka, and marching, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They have...

Prabhupāda: We shall train them. Military march, Manipur. Slogan: "Jaya Rādhe! Jaya Kṛṣṇa! Jaya Babhruvāhana! Jaya Arjuna!" And then let us go. We shall organize Bombay headquarter, Manipur Vaiṣṇava state, send missionary all over the world, bona fide, scientific system of religion, ideal character. Ideal character. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. That we have to show… But when they take it as a serious thing in life, oh, everyone will be happy. Everyone will be...We want to introduce…That is sure. Anyone who will take it, he will have the benefit. Such a civilization… I am speaking from my realization. It is not superficial.

 

Even there was no such suffering. Just like I am suffering now. It is due to so many irregularities. So many. For preaching I have violated so many things. What can be done? As far as possible, I have kept pace.

 

I do not like to see anything wasted, nor I waste.

 

…Guru Mahārāja. I knew that. He liked me. He liked me from the very heart. Guru Mahārāja liked me. I know. By his blessing it is, everything has happened. I was not worth. What did I...? I do not know why he liked. I was not worth. There were so many disciples. And still, he liked me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He could see how pure you were.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. Out of his affection, it is his good will. He can like anyone, any dog, doesn't matter. But I know he liked me. Anyone, by his choice of free will, he can love any damn thing. It doesn't matter. That is called kṛpā-siddhi. "I like this man. This man must be prominent." That is his will. It doesn't matter on qualification.

 

Better depend on the natural oil…This oil. You produce castor seed oil. You grow castor seed by agricultural.

 

Let us try to give a substantial platform of civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. (sound of thunder and rain) This time rainfall is very beneficial for crops. This is the way of living. You perform yajïa, there will be rain. And as soon as the ground is moist, you can produce anything, whatever you want. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From the field, you can get all your necessities of life. The first necessity is the food grain. So food grain you can eat, and the rejected grass portion, you give to the cows. So both the animal and the man get sufficient food. And the cows will give you nice milk, and from milk you can get butter, ghee, yogurt, so many nice sweetmeat. And there is ghee, and here is food grain, then you make kacuri, puri, samosā. Then sufficient foodstuff, nice, palatable, nutritious. First necessity is āhāra. You get sufficient āhāra. Then make little cottage for shelter. Just like there is rainfall. Now you require little... (thunder sounds) Āhāra, nidrā, bhaya, and sex. So marry. Then the whole problem is solved. And then, rest time you save and advance in Kṛṣṇa conscious... This is civilization.

 

This is a good chance of United Nation--Indian, Americans, Englishmen, German, all mixed together…This is the nucleus of United Nations, real. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam, to understand everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. That is the basic principle of United Nation. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. In that stage there can be equality. Otherwise not.

 

That is Kṛṣṇa's order, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam.

 

If you can introduce this system, varṇāśrama, then it will establish. No more change. This is a rascal's government, this democracy.

 

No consideration. Kill them. Due to Paraśurāma, the kṣatriyas went to European side, fled away. From India either they were driven away or killed when they become inconsistent with Vedic rules. So these kṣatriyas and associates... These parts of the world were resided by aborigines, mean uncivilized class. So for so many years associated with them, they have learned killing the an... Otherwise they're Aryans.

 

 

 

Prabhupāda: You can develop similar places. Land is so cheap.

Bali-mardana: Oh, yes. Australia...

Prabhupāda: In Africa also, land is cheap. Give this civilization. Then our mission will be...

 

Woman and money, that will not solve the problems of our life.

 

To learn how to control the senses, that is brahmacārī. Where is that civilization? So establish. Give them food. Give them shelter. Give them knowledge. That is para-upakāra, doing welfare to others… Do this. What is my idea I have given. Hm, Yes.

 

It is very, very demons', the Western civilization. No social structure, no mercy. All good qualities devoid. Simply animals in good dress. That's all.

 

Nāmākṣara, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name…If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance…He's not rejecting the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ means regulative principles. It is not rejected, that... But when he's a little purified, this vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiìkarāḥ… Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.

 

...earning and cow protection. You must do it. The other day I was explaining that not from economic point of view, even the cows do not supply milk, still, they should be protected.

Bali-mardana: Hm. Just to protect them.

Prabhupāda: Because that stool and urine is also useful. Cow is so important. They'll eat and they'll pass stool and urine. That is also important. If they supply milk, it is well, very good. Otherwise the stool and urine is also important. From that point of view we should give protection. So they are doing this cow slaughter business. (aside:) For you. Therefore they are suffering so much.

 

 

 

 

You eat sufficiently, you be strong and keep your health good and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the arrangement…Why so much discussion, barking in the United Nations? Kṛṣṇa has given the formula. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is para-upakāra, how to bring them in peaceful condition, in normal mental condition, and make this life successful by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to do it very carefully. It is para-upakāra. So always remember this fact, that they are..., the whole world is being controlled by āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, atheist class of men, and people are suffering everywhere. But Kṛṣṇa also descends when such condition prevailing. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. So now Kṛṣṇa has descended in His name. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa-avatāra. So try to do some good to the society. You have got a great mission and don't deviate. Try to... And Kṛṣṇa will give you all help. So, but always keep in mind that this civilization is a wrong civilization. Wrong civilization. It is not quite civil.

 

That I was proposing...Next program…Individual standing orders. Unlimited field.

 

Prabhupāda: That you have to manage, how to collect. You give him in credit, but keep men also to collect…Then it will be successful. You can give it... Americans are expert to take in credit, but the banking arrangement is nice, that they get back. Similarly, you give them credit. They will take it and then make such machinery that it will be collected. Collected means to go and ask. Then it will be collected.

 

So simply the government man or the king will not suffice. He must be ṛṣi, saintly person. So, topmost man in the society, at the same time, he must be saintly. That is the qualification of understanding Bhagavad-gītā.

 

So this understanding, that "I am not this body," is not possible for, say, restless person, that "I am not this body." It is specially mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, dhīra. He must not be a restless animal, always busy.

 

 

 

Just like the legislative assembly. They should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice--just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament--there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament. They assemble. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindā... I am proposing this because Kṛṣṇa consciousness means namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right.

 

"One who is not supported by Balarāma, he cannot understand, cannot come to the spiritual platform." Na medhayā na bahunā śrutena.(?) By intelligence one cannot. He must be supported by Balarāma, big brother of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute, flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture--Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma…And on this Kṛṣṇa culture, the India was ruling all over the world. During Parīkṣit Mahārāja time there was only one flag. And now go to the United States organization--simply flag increasing, "United."

 

There must be some state, ideal state. Just like the Russia is Communist state, and they're making nice propaganda, similarly we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. What do you think?…Either Manipur, anywhere. but we must have now a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. And we shall show how ideal state, wherever it is possible. I am not speaking particularly of Manipur, but Manipur, there is good chance. But we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state.

 

India's leaders, they are now giving stress on agriculture. So we should very nicely organize the Hyderabad. What you have resolved about that?…First of all you depute two or three GBCs to go there and see what is their program, how they'll utilize the money…No, Indian GBC plus other GBC. Four or five men should study…Not only here, but everywhere. The farm project is sound project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This we want to preach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY ONE

Conversation on Roof                                 February 14, 1977, Mayapur                                                       483243

Prabhupāda: Hm hm. (break) Cats also do not disturb. But everyone is fully fed and happy. The first problem is eating. So if you produce like tons, this corn alone can feed everyone. It is so nice food. Corn you can smash, and the powder portion you can use as flour, and the portion which is not powder, the hard portion, you can use as rice. And it is more nutritious than flour, wheat flour, and ordinary rice, and very cheap, cheaper than the ordinary rice and cheaper than the ordinary wheat. But you can utilize it--both dāl, bhāta. Vegetable and fat. From milk you get so much fat. Complete food.

Bhavānanda: I was very impressed with that farm when I visited it. Nicest. I saw one little kitten in the barn, and there was milk coming out of the cow's milkbag and it was falling into the kitten's mouth.

Prabhupāda: Dropping.

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Such an important animal. And then, when she passes stool and urine, that is also nice. The milk is nutritious, the stool is useful; the urine is useful. Why this poor animal should be slaughtered? What kind of civilization? Your material desires, eating, sleeping, mating--fulfill it like a gentleman and save time and make spiritual advancement. This is to be introduced. Why you are inventing so strenuous work and spoil time, valuable time of human life? This we want to preach. Save time, be spiritually advanced, and other necessities, make it gentlemanly short-cut. If you save time, you can read all these literatures, understand what is value of life. Therefore, the literature here. Not for all. The brāhmaṇas, educated. And they'll distribute the knowledge by speaking. Others, those who are less intelligent, simply by hearing, they will be guided. Just be convinced what kind of civilization we are trying to introduce. We should not be carried away. Then finished. In order to check others, if we become carried away, (laughing) then finish all business. To save them from being washed away by māyā, if we become washed away, then where is the hope? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. Be strong so that you may not be rascal, and then you can do; others you can check. Otherwise, it will be impossible. How it is possible? A man is drowning. If you are strong enough, you can save. But if you also become drowned, then how you'll save him? So the everything is there. Save yourself, save others. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. First of all save yourself; then try to save others. Or both things can go on simultaneously. The same example. If you want to save somebody who's drowning you must know that I may not be washed away. I have to remain strong; then I can save him." Everyone is presenting himself as the saver, savior. These politicians and these philanthropist, humanitarian, they have taken the slogan, "To serve the humanity..." What is that slogan? "Is to serve God?"

Bhavānanda: "Service to man is service to God."

Prabhupāda: He cannot save himself, he is serving man. Our mission is very great. People have not understood yet. Now here is a chance in the court. Let it be prolonged, and let it be threadbare judged. There's a good chance. Let it continue. And in the mode of defense we explain everything. Our defense pleader must be very expert, take instruction from us. We give nice, and he'll place before the court. It will be published in the paper.

                                                                                                                                                                        483326

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is aristocratic house. They... Formerly, either Indian or American, Europe, aristocratic was the same--big, big rooms, very decorated, woman's quarter different, men's quarter different. No man can enter into woman's... Lavatory house, different; cooking house, different. This was Calcutta aristocracy. Those houses are now gone. No attached bathroom. The... Because it was service, how it can be attached bathroom? So they... A separate house, big house, only for passing stool. And if possible, a lake within the house. Aristocratic family, they would have lake within the house for using water.

Brahmānanda: Within the courtyard?

Prabhupāda: Not courtyard. Within the boundary, compound. The ramma badhi, vaihama badhi, merde badhi, purusdera badhi,(?) four different courtyards. And who cared for city life in those days? Nobody. Everyone was satisfied in village. General people, they would not come to city. Only servant class. What business they have got from the city? Because their main income from the field, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. What they have got to do with the city? In the city, big, big zamindars, personally they had nothing to do. They are managers and sircars(?) were collecting money. That's all. And their extra money, they're constructing Öhākura Badhi,(?) temple, just like that Mullick's Öhākura Badhi, and festival going on. That was aristocracy. They devoted their money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        483366

Prabhupāda: No, she is very nice woman. From the beginning she is devotee. She is about fifty years old? Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, at least fifty years old. Yes, her hair is gray.

Brahmānanda: She wears all white sari. Other women that age, they would be looking for another husband, another husband, another husband.

Prabhupāda: This widow life is also brahmacārī life.

                                                                                                                                                                        483448

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spicy, yes. The Western palate is bland food. They don't like too much spice.

Prabhupāda: No. They simply take boiled, little black pepper and salt. That's all. (laughter) And that is also stale meat. That is Western. And then they drink coffee and tea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And liquor.

Brahmānanda: And cigarette.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And cigarette for digestion.

Prabhupāda: And their loaf, that is three hundred years old, (laughter) with little butter like...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually they are eating just like prisoners.

                                                                                                                                                                        483505

Prabhupāda: In India the practice was hand grind daily. The women will do that. That's exercise for them, and they keep their body fit and beautiful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oxen can also grind, I think. Can oxen also?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need oxen. Individually, small grinding--chapki(?). And in the morning they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and grind. (sings) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare... This is very nice process. Whatever they require for the day, they grind fresh. Very nice system. And actually, by this exercise, they keep their body beautiful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keeps them well engaged.

Prabhupāda: And engagement. Yaśodāmāyi was doing that, even she is the queen of Nanda Mahārāja, what to speak of other women. Churning milk, grinding the wheat, this is their household. We have got that picture. Full engagement. Otherwise gossiping...

                                                                                                                                                                        483522

Prabhupāda: They simply want money. That's all. Money will only be supplied. Let them show some work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paramānanda may be able to come to help there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to give them direction. It will be very nice. If Paramānanda comes, we can invest money without any hesitation. He has got experience.

                                                                                                                                                                        483527

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we can develop farm here also. Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute, flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture--Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. In Africa also you have got good opportunity for these farm projects.

                                                                                                                                                                        483529

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved, and kṣatriya, protection problem solved, and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam. Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ. If you sit idly, then you'll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one person, God, He's supplying everyone whatever necessities. You have to simply work little. That is material world. In the material world you have to work. And in the spiritual world there is no question, work. Whatever you require, you desire, everything is there. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa. You get everything as soon as you desire it. You haven't got to work. That is spiritual world. In material world, to get your necessities you have to work. You get this flower, little working. You grow the seeds, put little water, and it will be... And in spiritual world, as soon as you desire, "I want this flower," it is ready. There also māyā is working. Māyā means energy, Kṛṣṇa's energy. Here also energy is working. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Kṛṣṇa is preparing the seed. You have to work little. You cannot prepare the seed. That is in Kṛṣṇa's hand. You cannot prepare the seed in your so-called rascals' laboratory. That is not. Is it possible.? Hm? Why now they are so much proud with their scientific knowledge? Our Svarūpa Dāmodara is convinced this so-called scientific knowledge is bogus.

                                                                                                                                                                        483553

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When was the railway first built?

Prabhupāda: Oh, I think about 1928, long ago, because about twenty years ago there was centenary, hundred years. So the local produce was not exported. Everything was cheap in the village because you have to consume. Whatever is produced in the village you have to consume. And these Britishers, they introduced railway and drew everything in the village to the town. And they would not sell in the village because they would get good price in the city. Otherwise in the village, everything was very cheap, very, very cheap--milk, vegetables, rice, dāl, everything. And the Britishers, they had no food. They have got only the potato. In England what they produce? No food. So everything was exported. Their policy was to supply manufactured goods and take raw materials from India. So they supplied cotton goods. They saw that all Indians are using cotton cloth. Iron they introduced. They introduced railway line, all iron, the carriage, the wheel, the road. Everything was... In this way they became prosperous. And the Indian people, they saw... They were educated because they are fond of going to pilgrimage by walking. They would go... Suppose from here, Navadvīpa, one has to go to Vṛndāvana. He would make his will, because he does not know whether he'll come back or not. Long distance, thousand miles, you have to go by, on leg. They used to go. So they were advertised that "No. Now you'll have not to walk. The Company, they're making very easy going railway." So they received it, "Oh! (Hindi)" (laughs) But their idea was to draw all the raw materials from villages and send it to England.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they advertised, "Now you can go..."

Prabhupāda: "Now you can go to tīrtha by nice railway."

Brahmānanda: British Railway.

Satsvarūpa: Company.

Prabhupāda: And they thought, "Oh, how beneficial the English, British Company. They're giving us so much facility." And English education, they wanted to conduct their office affairs. They required some clerk. They did not want any highly educated. "Work here--ABCD--that's all. 'Yes, no, very good.' Bas." (laughs) So... And as soon as you learn "Yes, no, very good," you get fifty rupees' salary. So they gave up living in... That time fifty rupees is now five thousand. Yes. So they all entered school, English education--"ABCD, yes, no, very good. Bas." And this is British policy. Otherwise India was very happy.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want anything tonight?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Chānā?

Prabhupāda: No. Here is something here.

Hari-śauri: Rasagullā, yes.

Prabhupāda: If I require, I'll take. So Gandhi discovered, and the discovery was there Surendranath Ban... That they're exploiting us, so noncooperate. They are ruling over us by our cooperation, so let us noncooperate." But that is a foolish policy. Poverty-stricken country, how they can noncooperate? That was not successful, but this program, Subhash Bose's tit-for-tat, military, that was successful. They're keeping our men as soldiers and police, and by their strength they're ruling over India. And Subhash Bose made a plan--the soldiers and police will noncooperate. They'll join his INA. And when they began to join Indian National Army, these intelligent Britishers could understand, "Now it is no more possible. With whose cooperation, we shall kick?" Then they made a friendly settlement. Friendly means "Divide it so that they'll perpetually fight, and let us go."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like that division was simply spiteful.

Prabhupāda: That is politics.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was no purpose to it.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What could England gain from the separation?

Prabhupāda: Gain means they are now finished. They have gained this. They have no prestige, no money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was their gain from dividing India and Pakistan?

Prabhupāda: Oh, that, that is enviousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just spiteful enviousness.

Prabhupāda: Enviousness. Just like, you like..., who has done something wrong to you, you like to do some wrong, harm.

                                                                                                                                                                       483726

Prabhupāda: So this will give impetus to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. Don't be disappointed. Kṛṣṇa will act through His movement and kill them, these demons. How it will be done, that you cannot know now, but it will be done. Let us remain true soldiers. That's all. And if it is a fight, suppose we die in the fight. The fight means with vow, with determination either to gain victory or die. Because it is fight against māyā, why we shall be afraid of being killed? Where there is fight, one must know that "Either I am going to be killed or gain victory." Jīvo vā māro vā. Those who are devotees, either they live or they die--the same thing. While they live they are serving Kṛṣṇa; when they die they will serve Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. He goes to Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) So what is the loss? We are working for Kṛṣṇa, and if we die we go to Kṛṣṇa. So what is the loss? Same business.

Hari-śauri: No loss. There's just gain.

Prabhupāda: Jīvo vā māro vā: "Either you live or you die, it doesn't matter." And for butcher, nā jīvo nā māro: "Don't die; don't live. So long you are living, every morning you have to cut throat of so many. And if you die you shall go to hell and suffer for this cutting throat. So don't live; don't die." And for a devotee: "Live or die." And for prince, king's son. "Don't die." And for brahmacārī... (break) All night screaming, and they have to hear, the Indians.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Publicly.

Prabhupāda: Because they know the Indian Hindus, they have got sentiment for cow killing.

                                                                                                                                                                        483772

So at any cost, I am still dictating. I'll go on dictating so long I live. That's all. But this is very nice program, our farm program. practical. So if possible, Paramānanda may come and teach them.

 

Room Conversation                                   February 16, 1977, Māyāpura                                                      483892

Prabhupāda: Yes. This I want to increase more and more. No money in the bank. In the books. And as soon as there will be stock of book, it has to be sold. Otherwise you will starve. (chuckling) That I want.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will force the book sales to increase. The manager...

Prabhupāda: You may take it as business or whatever you like. I am not taking anything. You are selling five to six lakhs daily?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So my royalty would have been one lakh, fifty thousand daily. Big authors, they take twenty-five percent. So that is not the ambition, but my ambition is these books shall be sold. That's all. Whole... Every house should have our books, every gentleman, in any language. It doesn't matter. That is our propaganda. Now you are getting all languages, so we can capture the whole world.

                                                                                                                                                                        483967

Prabhupāda: Every book is... Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Nectar of Devotion. Whichever he will read, he will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) And then Kṛṣṇa, then Bhāgavata, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, simply development.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This book is now very nice because there are many fine illustrations inside, more than there used to be. They've added. The Teachings of Lord Caitanya, I was thinking in particular. I have a copy of that, and there are many color illustrations inside now. Wonderful book, the summary of all of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Like Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's introduction gives a whole... It's like all of the pastimes of Lord Caitanya condensed into a few pages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there in the Teaching of Lord Caitanya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, teachings of Lord Caitanya. This is... You remember that...

Prabhupāda: Near Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay, at Rāma temple you stayed at. This was taken by Brijbasi. They took this picture. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...rasāmṛta-sindhu like my other books, word to word. Then Bon Mahārāja began. So Bon Mahārāja could not do it. Only he published only a part of it with gorgeous sound, that, only that eleven hundred or one thousand copies printed forever.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To show. Name only.

Prabhupāda: Name only.

Hari-śauri: And they're all still in his (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Then I thought that "Not in that way. Let me have the summary study. Then it will be..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's really nice that some of your books are like this, in summary study. It's a nice variety. Some are very scholarly presented and some are very for the other person.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is summary study of the Tenth Canto. That is also very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa book stories are wonderful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Most popular book.

Prabhupada: Ācchā?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they love that. Of course, Bhagavad-gītā is the most well known, but people enjoy that Kṛṣṇa book. From the Kṛṣṇa book they get the clear idea who Kṛṣṇa is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was my... "Let them know at least what is Kṛṣṇa." That is selling nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very nicely. I would say that the lay public, that is to say the people who attend our temples but are not becoming the full-time devotees, they especially read Kṛṣṇa book and Gītā.

Prabhupāda: And that theologian, he says, "I want to support Kṛṣṇa." He said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. "It must be Kṛṣṇa's name; otherwise I'm not..."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then he has become devotee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a big man, Harvey Cox, the top theologian in the country.

Prabhupāda: Our George Harrison, he also liked Kṛṣṇa book.

Hari-śauri: Yes. We sold so many Kṛṣṇa books on the strength of showing them that...

Prabhupāda: George Harrison.

Hari-śauri: ...Introduction from George Harrison.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And I have acknowledged his contribution and blessed him as good boy. And because he served Kṛṣṇa, then later on he became inclined to give us that house.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Has that house been transferred actually yet?

Prabhupāda: Never mind what is the... We are using it. If he says "Go out," we shall go out. What is that? We are not after property.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he'll never say that.

Prabhupāda: No. I don't think he's so mean-minded. No. He's not mean-minded. He's a good boy. I've studied.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ravi Shankar has taken advantage of him. These two pūjārīs, the two brothers...

Prabhupāda: They're ideal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...they look like they're out of the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. They appear as two persons right out of that book.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good boys.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vaikuṇṭha men.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They do not know except the duty. Very good boys.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect team of brothers.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has brought them here in Māyāpura. Previously they were advanced, all of you. You are simply born because the mission was to be started. Just like in Yadu-vaṁśa Kṛṣṇa ordered all the devotee demigods to "Go and take birth there to help Me." Similarly, you are also... You were born in Europe, America, to help this. Otherwise you were devotees in your past lives. I have explained that in my recent writings. The purport was mām eti: goes to Kṛṣṇa where His pastime is going on, and then they are transferred to the original. So all the devotees picked up and they were placed together where Kṛṣṇa is having His pastimes in either of these innumerable universes. He's going on. Just the moving... The sun is moving--little, little, little. So Kṛṣṇa's pastimes go on--this universe, that universe, that universe, that universe. In some universe He's present. In all universes present, that is called nitya-līlā. So those who are advanced, perfect devotees, first of all they are sent there and then, further trained up, they enter. Mām eti. Just like after passing the administration examination he's made one assistant of some magistrate, and then gradually he'll be promoted up to the high court judge.

Hari-śauri: When we were in New York this last summer you said that the spiritual master also has associates who appear along with him to help him in his mission.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa wants His assistants; the spiritual master also requires assistant. Everything is going on under Kṛṣṇa's direct supervision. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūòhāni māyayā

                                                                                                                                                                        484008

Prabhupāda: Gurukula. Very gorgeous and nice. And if there are gates and road in our name, (laughing) that will be unique in India. Then people will come to Vṛndāvana to see our... Nowadays also, they are coming to see our temple. Anyone who comes. That prasāda distribution is going on in the evening?

Devotee: Daily.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be done. Anyone who comes to see the ārati, at least two puris, little vegetable, halavā should be given. Prasāda distribution should go on everywhere. Who said that that is my trick? Who was...?

Hari-śauri: He was just saying last night.

Prabhupāda: Oh, somebody...

Hari-śauri: Secret weapon.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

                                                                                                                                                                        484040

Prabhupāda: Although nonviolence is a very good word, but who can accept it? We don't say such rascal things, imagination. We introduce Kṛṣṇa, encouraging, "Fight!" Nonsense nonviolence. (chuckles) "Kṣatriya, you should fight. Don't talk nonsense." Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam. "What kind of talking you are doing? You're My friend." And he wanted to introduce nonviolence. Where is nonviolence in Gītā? Artificial, all artificial.

Hari-śauri: When Arjuna wanted to stop fighting, Kṛṣṇa chastised him.

Prabhupāda: And he wants to prove nonviolence from Gītā. Just see how foolish he was. If you say publicly that he was a rascal, fool, then you become unpopular. But actually he was a rascal fool. (laughs) Artificial. Kṛṣṇa says, "You fight," and these rascals say, "Nonviolent." He's more than cheating. Māyāvādī.

Hari-śauri: Cheater.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheater, one must be due to ignorance. Generally one who is fool, he commits criminality. No sane man does it. Sane means he knows what is what. He does not commit mistake. But to commit mistake means he's insane, ignorant. That is not innocence--ignorance, foolish.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a difference between ignorance and innocence.

Prabhupāda: Innocence, he..., like a child. But ignorant means he has no knowledge; he is animal.

                                                                                                                                                                        484066

Prabhupāda: () My Guru Mahārāja used to, (Bengali): "A pandemonium of eating and sleeping. Joint mess." Joint mess, just without any Deity, nobody will pay. Therefore... Not for preaching. So make this program immediately. Bring huge quantity of books and distribute. And see that books are not wasted, not stolen, neglected. This is our life and soul property. Jaya. (end)                                                                                                                        

Room Conversation(2)                      February 16, 1977, Mayapur                                                                483804

Prabhupāda: Āra. So these things will be accepted by kṛṣṇa-bhakta, etaj jïānam. So whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is knowledge, vidyā. Everything nonsense. Therefore so boldly we say, "All rascaldom." Never mind. That's a fact. That is a fact. Anyone... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Anyone who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa, bhagavad-bhakta--useless. Jaòa-bidyā jato māyāra vaibhava, jībake karaye gādhā. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has said. By this so-called material education, one is already gādhā, go-khara, dehātma-buddhi, and he becomes still more, another staunch gādhā. Now, if you speak the straight truth they'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. But this is fact.

Jayapatākā: You can speak, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I speak. I said in Melbourne, "United Nations is association of barking dogs."

Jayapatākā: You have that expert quality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I cannot check myself.

Pradyumna: You say that. You get so angry at seeing it, you...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. That is Narottama Öhākura's instruction. You must be very angry, those who are against God and devotee, very angry. Utilize your anger for them. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. That anger is service. Kṛṣṇa-sebā kāmārpaṇe. For Kṛṣṇa's service one should be mad. Kāma-krodha should be given up, but a bhakta does not give up. Utilize it. A bhakta should be very much for kamut(?) serving Kṛṣṇa. And he must utilize his anger for the bhakta-dveṣi, those who are not devotee. Kṛṣṇa-sebā kāmārpaṇe krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. We have nothing to give up like Māyāvādī. Kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. Mātsarya may... That has to be... A bhakta cannot be envious. If a bhakta is angry upon them, that is not envious. That is for good. A bhakta should not be envious. Otherwise how he can preach? He's merciful. Even if he's angry, it is mercy. Therefore this mātsarya has no use for bhakta. Other things, they have use, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, not mātsarya. Mātsarya is very bad.

Satsvarūpa: Envy?

Prabhupāda: Envy, yes. So Panihati is hopeful, is not...

Jayapatākā: Yes. If this MLA actually pushes it through, then in one month...

Prabhupāda: In that MLA that gentleman is very intelligent.

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Young man.

Jayapatākā: He's ambitious. Ambitious.

Prabhupāda: Ambitious for Kṛṣṇa, everyone should be ambitious: "How I shall become a great devotee?" That is very good. Yes. Again finger problem. (laughs) So electric is not working? Just see. In the evening, we..., people want light. No light.

Jayapatākā: It works the whole day. Only in the evening it goes off.

Prabhupāda: Whole night also. Only evening, when you require it... (laughter) India's material advancement is artificial. They are not fit for it. In America, so long, no electricity every day? People would become mad. There would have been a revolution. Huh? Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Yes. They had a blackout in New York once for an hour or so.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. I was that time.

Hari-śauri: Oh, you were there.

Prabhupāda: Not hour. It was four hours. And fortunately I was not out on the street. I was in my place. That accident took place just after few days of my arrival, 1965. One gentleman, he, I know, he brought me some candle. I had no candle even. Simply I was sitting in darkness. What can be done? But Kṛṣṇa sent him with some candle. Yes. (chuckling)

Hari-śauri: Nine months after that incident they had a record number of births...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...in New York.

Prabhupāda: What can they do in darkness? (laughter) That is the only engagement in darkness.

Jayapatākā: They could have chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No... Even Hare Kṛṣṇa people. Nāviviktāsano bhavet, mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā. It is strictly forbidden: "You should not sit alone even with your mother, sister or daughter, what to speak of wife." Balavān indriya-grāmo vidvāṁsam api karṣati: "The senses are so strong, even learned persons, advanced, they also become victimized." Balavān indriya-grāmaḥ. Balavān means very strong. When the... It is forbidden even with mother, sister or..., and daughter. That is the only capturing instrument in the material world. Maithunyam agāra, prison house of sex, this material world. It is a prison house, but locked up by sex. The ordinary prison house, they are locked up by guards, and here the locking process is sex. Maithunyam agāra. The words are selected in Bhāgavata. They are thinking free. (laughs) They are imprisoned, locked up. And everyone falsely thinking, "I am free. Our nation is free. I am free." What nonsense free? You are locked up already. That he does not... Now this word is used, maithunyam agāram ajïaḥ. He has preferred to remain in this prison locked up by sex because he is rascal. Maithunyam agāram ajïaḥ.

Pradyumna: Where is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: In the... Find out, Fifth, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Bhāgavata is the only guide. Read Bhāgavata, repeatedly whole life. Safe. Always. Always, whenever there is time, read, read, read.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

Vyāsadeva has done this sātvata-saṁhitā. Anartha. To live in this material world is anartha, unnecessary. Hm? You have got it?

 

 

Pradyumna:

yadā na paśyaty ayathā guṇehāṁ

svārthe pramattaḥ sahasā vipaścit

gata-smṛtir vindati tatra tāpān

āsādya maithunyam agāram ajïaḥ

Prabhupāda: Ajïaḥ.

Jayapatākā: Which verse?

Pradyumna: It's Canto Five, Chapter Five, verse number seven. "Even though one may be very learned and wise, he is mad if he does not understand that the endeavor for sense gratification is a useless waste of time. Being forgetful of his own interest, he tries to be happy in the material world, centering his interests around his home, which is based on sexual intercourse and which brings him all kinds of material miseries. In this way one is no better than a foolish animal."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maithunyam agāram ajïaḥ. The selection of words in Bhāgavata are, from even literary point of view, perfect. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na... This is literary. Samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ. Again plavam plavam. Anuprāsa. This is literary, anuprāsa. Samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ. Padam. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām. Just see literary arrangement. And full of meaning. This is Bhāgavatam. Any way you study, from literary point of view, from knowledge, from philosophy, from social, every--perfect. Therefore lokasya ajānato vidvāṁś cakre. Vidvān. One who has learned, Vyāsadeva, vidvān, the first-class learned person. The sātvata-saṁhitām--for the devotees, Vedic cream. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ idam. Nobody can be like Vyāsadeva; He's incarnation of Nārāyaṇa. Where is such scholar throughout the whole world? Is there?

                                                                                                                                                                        484353

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes we find a dilemma in preaching, in the sense that if we preach very vigorously we invoke the attention of the authorities. That is to say, if we were to preach a little less vigorously, there might be less objection, but then again there would be the less benefit because we would not be preaching as vigorously. It's very hard to know sometimes just how forcefully to preach.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not to satisfy the authorities. We have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna. He wanted to satisfy his family members, but Kṛṣṇa did not like that. Then He preached him Bhagavad-gītā, and then Arjuna agreed, "Yes." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. So it is the duty of the devotee to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not the public.

 

Room Conversation(4)                              February 18, 1977, Mayapur                                                        484802

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. And the Hyderabad report, that English education, they are inclined. There are so many here. That's not very good idea. As soon as they get English education...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.

Prabhupāda: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then... Not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are śūdra class of men. What he will be educated? Śūdra, vaiśya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Get more money, work less."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus.

                                                                                                                                                                        484826

Prabhupāda: Why they are against the book?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because... They're not against the books. They're against the money, the huge money that they see the books are getting. They're not even against the books. They're against the process of collecting money. Books, they don't care one way or the other, but the fact that we're collecting so much money, that is surprising them.

Hari-śauri: They think we're just going on the street begging money and then living nice life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See at first... At first they don't take us very seriously. They think, "Well, a few beggars." But then they start to see one skyscraper...

Prabhupāda: All beggars. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, poor beggars, right. And then a skyscraper full of beggars, and then they realize, "How they purchased a skyscraper? These people are collecting a lot of money."

Prabhupāda: We want that they should have necessaries without any difficulty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not like. They want people to be industrialists, working very hard in the factory.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They're envious because they're struggling for their own existence, and they don't like to see us not struggle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Envious. But if we develop this community project, farm, they cannot do anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they appreciate this farm projects.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why shall I work? I am working for my own..., for the village."

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We don't fit into the normal pattern of things--no jobs, no proper dress. Everything's strange to them, because we don't want their culture. It is so abominable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is brahminical culture. They don't want it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. When the...

Hari-śauri: They don't have any culture.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When the British came here, they saw people sitting on the floor, they said, "Oh, uncivilized."

Prabhupāda: No, no. The British policy was that "If you keep the Hindus as Hindu, it will not be possible to rule over them." That was their policy. Therefore, from the very beginning childhood, everything Indian condemned.

                                                                                                                                                                        484928

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we're the only... I think that what you are telling us is perfect in that now what we have to do is we have to vigorously explain our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the only way. We have to educate them. If we remain silent now, then we will become squashed. We have to speak positively. "Yes, this is why... We are like this because of the following reasons."

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is good for human being. That you have to convince. And actually that is fact. They are in ignorance. And they are advertising as scientist, philosopher--false propaganda. That is my view from the very beginning. They are nothing, all bokās. My Guru Mahārāja used to say. In the beginning I could not understand, that "Why he says everyone is bokā?" (laughs) Actually that is fact. They do not know the value of life.

                                                                                                                                                                        484989

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Yes, one spoon more. Take. (break) Very strong opposition. (chuckling) This combination in your country is costly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Peas, puffed rice and cucumber.

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice is costly!

Hari-śauri: I don't think... Not so...

Satsvarūpa: But you can't buy it nice and fresh. They buy it in a bag, like you say, three hundred years old. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Puffed rice is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not like here.

Satsvarūpa: Stale.

Hari-śauri: They've never seen it like this, in this form, anyway.

Prabhupāda: You can learn how to make puffed rice. It's not difficult.

Hari-śauri: All our farms should learn.

Prabhupāda: The paddy has to be cooked, once boiled and fried, er, mean dried, again cooked, again dried. Then you take out the skin and mix with little salt and half baked, and then put into the hot sand. Oh, it will do... Little laboring.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We cannot grow rice in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh. There is no paddy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Only place I know is down in Mississippi farm. They are trying to.

Prabhupāda: They can grow. There is no difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But other places, they cannot. You see, the weather.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New Vrindaban they cannot do.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Rice cannot be grown.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. New Varṣaṇa we cannot do.

Prabhupāda: California?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe. Florida they can do. Southern United States, the weather is more like India, especially Florida. Florida is very much like India.

Prabhupāda: There are many places like India.

                                                                                                                                                                        485377

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is brainwashing, educating. (break) "You take this. This is our aim. Remain brahmacārī, no bother. Is that bad? You will have your sex unrestricted and make your wife pregnant and kill him and eat him. You'll be implicated with so many sinful activities, and if I say, if you are so much afraid, 'Don't have sex,' what is the wrong there? And you are thinking, 'Oh? No sex? It is so brainwashing, mind-controlling.' But what is... You want that in a sinful way. We want in a pious way."

Hari-śauri: Yes. Same thing. No one wants the suffering.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference. "Your brain is so filled with stool that you do not know how much sinful activities you are..., and how much you are becoming entangled in this material body. You are killing the child. You have to become his child again, or you have to become again a child and you will be killed. And then you will enter another mother's body; you'll be again killed. As many child you have killed, you'll have to be killed so many times. You'll never see the light. In the womb, womb, womb, you'll be killed. So your brain is so filled up with stool, you cannot understand. This is your education. This is you education. We are trying to save you, that 'You'll suffer so much. You've made the situation so complicated. Better remain a brahmacārī.' If there is little trouble without sex enjoyment, take it just like itching. Itching trouble, if you don't itch, it will not increase. And if you itch, more and more it will increase.' That is advised. Kaṇòūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. One who knows, one who has got brain, 'All right, let me suffer little itching. I'll not itch it.' It will...This is intelligence. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa. The suffering from the itching sensation by brahmacārī, that is recommended in our śāstra. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting some trouble. 'So I am feeling itching. I don't itch it. It is little troublesome, little. Never mind, I shall tolerate it.'

Ādi-keśava: They don't understand that that is voluntary. They don't understand that that is voluntary.

Prabhupāda: Then voluntary...

Ādi-keśava: They think we are somehow telling...

Prabhupāda: No...

Ādi-keśava: ...the devotees that "You must." "You must not."

Prabhupāda: No, we... "It is voluntary. In our society we find so many brahmacārīs, so many gṛhasthas. And if you cannot stop this itching sensation, all right, marry one girl and live peacefully like a gentle... What is this nonsense, every three weeks divorce? We are not so rascal. If we accept one girl as my wife, I take full responsibility. Because I require a girl or woman, so this woman, that one... We are not so rascal that at home I have got woman, I am searching after another woman, another naked woman. We are not so madman. The sex pleasure is there at home, and I am seeking after sex pleasure in here, here, in the club, in the...

 

Room Conversation(3)                               February 19, 1977, Mayapur                                                       485486

Prabhupāda: By this agitation our position will be improved. Prahlāda Mahārāja was suppressed in so many means. What was loss on his part? He improved more and more, more and more. If Christ were not crucified, then his cult would not have spread so much all over the world. The Christian cult was spread all over the world after demise of Christ, not during his time. Is it not?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. The history was that there were many... At that time there many, many cults, and that was just another cult during the Roman Empire, and then that cult became very, very dominant.

Prabhupāda: Because he was persecuted, his cult became so spread.

                                                                                                                                                                        485497

Tripurāri: I think there is more animal slaughter in Argentina than anywhere in the world.

Prabhupāda: Most sinful.

Ādi-keśava: That is the national industry there, cattle slaughter.

Prabhupāda: It has become national industry in Africa also.

Hari-śauri: And Australia...

Prabhupāda: Australia.

Hari-śauri: ...New Zealand.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the world is suffering, so much sinful activities. The greatest sinful activity is cow slaughter, and they are committing. They do not know what will be the result. Such brain, stool, stool-bound brain. Thorough overhaul is required. That we are doing. Otherwise the stool cannot be cleansed. (Bengali) (end)

 

Room Conversation                                   February 20, 1977, Mayapur                                                        485728

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Washington, March 18th. The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement was called a 'bona fide religion' yesterday by the New York high court justice who threw out two charges against the officials of the movement of 'illegal imprisonment' and 'attempted extortion.' A charge had been preferred by an angry parent that his son, as well as another disciple, had been held by the movement illegally and that they had been brainwashed. 'The entire and basic issue before the court,' said the Justice in dismissing the charges, 'is whether or not the two alleged victims in this case and the defendants will be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, and this must be answered with a resounding affirmative.' Said Mr. Justice John J. Lee, 'The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a bona fide religion with roots in India that go back thousands of years. It behooved Merrilee Kreshower and Edward Shapiro to follow the tenets of that faith, and their inalienable right to do so will not be trampled upon.' " This is all quote. " 'The separation of Church and State must be maintained. We are and must remain a nation of laws, not of men. The presentment and indictment by the Grand Jury was in direct and blatant violation of the defendants' Constitutional rights.' The Justice said that it appeared to the court that 'The people rest their case on an erroneous minor premise to arrive at a fallacious conclusion. The record is devoid of one specific allegation of a misrepresentation or any act of deception on the part of any defendant.' The Justice said, 'The freedom of religion is not to be abridged because it is unconventional in its beliefs and practices or because it is approved or disapproved by the mainstream of society or more conventional religions. Without this proliferation and freedom to follow the dictates of one's own conscience in this search for the approach to God, the freedom of religion will be a meaningless right as provided for in the Constitution. Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens--freedom of religion.' "

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has been under pressure from various groups, and this judgment is expected to stop some of the harassment to which it has been subjected in recent months."

Prabhupāda: So my mission is now successful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: In 1965 I went there, and this is now recognized after ten years ago. Ten or twelve years, eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twelve years.

Prabhupāda: Loitering in the street. Nobody cared for me. Alone carrying the books. Now organize Bombay as our headquarter, New York as sub-office. Or headquarter in America.

                                                                                                                                                                        485839

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva-parā vedā vāsudeva-parā... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. This is wanted. At least, one must know. Why they should be kept in darkness? What is this civilization? They have got light. The knowledge is there. They can be educated. And unnecessarily they are kept into darkness. Is that civilization? Others may do it. They have no knowledge. Why India? India should now stand up--"Stop this nonsense." They have got this culture. That is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma. India cannot tolerate this. Do you follow? When... Even it is not possible to introduce this movement in a large scale, there is no harm. Anyone who takes it, he is happy. It is very difficult. We are not expected that manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, everyone will be able to do it. But the ideal should be there. And it is India's duty to keep this ideal, Indian people's duty, government's duty. That will keep India's prestige in the highest level. Make propaganda like that. Why India should be lowered down unnecessarily while we have got so much stock of knowledge, scientific knowledge? Am I right?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why? It doesn't matter, only a few persons may take, but the ideal must be there. And preach all over the world. For me it will be difficult to move everywhere, but so long my life is there, I'll give you hint. You develop it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far in Manipur, most people in the educated class, they all accept.

Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state--varṇāśrama ideal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Manipur? Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Manipur. And always give respect. Though I am nobody, but...

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. The policemen wear tilaka. There is justice for sure.

Prabhupāda: So immediately do it. I shall go. If there is such possibility... Let us have a small ideal state. If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be a great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaiṣṇava state.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Example. You can show that example.

Prabhupāda: Show their policemen, all with tilaka, and marching, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They have...

Prabhupāda: We shall train them. Military march, Manipur. Slogan: "Jaya Rādhe! Jaya Kṛṣṇa! Jaya Babhruvāhana! Jaya Arjuna!" And then let us go. We shall organize Bombay headquarter, Manipur Vaiṣṇava state, send missionary all over the world, bona fide, scientific system of religion, ideal character. Ideal character. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiïcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. That we have to show. "Here is the sum total of all good qualities." That we have to show. We haven't got to go anywhere. Knowledge, good quality, happiness, advancement of life, everything complete. So let us go to Manipur. Arrange for that.                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                        485994

Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is your actual fact! (long pause) (breaks) But when they take it as a serious thing in life, oh, everyone will be happy. Everyone will be...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That hasn't come yet.

Prabhupāda: That has not come. We want to introduce.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More spontaneous.

Prabhupāda: That is sure. Anyone who will take it, he will have the benefit. Such a civilization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that described as rāgānugā-bhakti?

Prabhupāda: Hm? No. That is not rāgānugā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean when it's more spontaneous.

Prabhupāda: That is rāgānugā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is vaidhī-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: This is... I am speaking from my realization. It is not superficial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our platform now is simply on your order we are doing.

Prabhupāda: Even there was no such suffering. Just like I am suffering now. It is due to so many irregularities. So many. For preaching I have violated so many things. What can be done? As far as possible, I have kept pace.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (chuckling) No one could do what you have done, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: How I can... Main business is how to... Gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe. "Let them first of all, somehow or other, yena tena prakāreṇa. Then I shall impose rules and regulations and regulative..." He has... You have not seen from the very beginning. They have seen. I worked very hard. Two times lectures, cooking, and meeting and twenty-four-hours writing book, typing. Not a single moment, and still I am not wasting single moment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I was giving two tapes daily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember.

Prabhupāda: Two tapes daily regularly. Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. Sometimes Brahmānanda was typing, sometimes Satsvarūpa, sometimes one boy, Neil, he was typing. He was very good typist.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stryadhīśa.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes in San Francisco one girl was typing. I was giving them sufficient work. Hayagrīva was typing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had everyone busy trying to keep up. Even now I see that you're not at all wasting a second. Even in the middle of the night you call...

Prabhupāda: No, that, my... This is my childhood practice. I do not like to see anything wasted, nor I waste. I have told you many times that on the street I am going and seeing tap is open. I don't liked to see. I stop. Why it should be wasted?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You taught us like that. Go around turning off the lights, things like that.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, his father was a go-down clerk in a tanner position(?). So in go-down, dāl go-down, dāl was falling down from the bag. Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, he was a boy, he was taking the dāl and trying to push within the hole. So his father's name was Prasana(?) Bose. His master was a European. He said, "Oh, this boy will be very big man, your son." So he had no idea how to save it, but he was trying to. Dr. Bose personally told me that "I was trying to push the dāl through the hole within the bag." That is not possible, but he did not want to see waste. Why things should be wasted? Immediately that Mr. Morrison said to Prasana Bose, "Your this child will be..." So I had the same tendency. Dr. Bose liked me very much. Very much. He found me a prototype boy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than his own sons.

Prabhupāda: Of course, own son is own son, but he liked me very much, very, very much. He selected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Above other more senior men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, selected me. "Someday I shall appoint him manager."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other people working there couldn't understand that so easily.

Prabhupāda: Three, four men liked me very, very much. One is my father, one is Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra, one my Guru Mahārāja, and..., who else? One, my maternal uncle. Rakal Chandrardha. He was very rich man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his name?

Prabhupāda: Rakal Chandrardha(?). He has got a street. He liked me. He's known to(?) take care of his son very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother's brother.

Prabhupāda: Not real, but cousin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother's...

Prabhupāda: My mother is the brother's daughter, and he was the sister daughter. Just like our this nephew, first cousin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a close relationship.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So he treated... Although my mother was first cousin, he treated my mother as younger sister. In that way he liked my father also, myself. That gentleman and one Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose, and two--one, my own father and my Guru Mahārāja. I knew that. He liked me. He liked me from the very heart. Guru Mahārāja liked me. I know. By his blessing it is, everything has happened. I was not worth. What did I...? I do not know why he liked. I was not worth. There were so many disciples. And still, he liked me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He could see how pure you were.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. Out of his affection, it is his good will. He can like anyone, any dog, doesn't matter. But I know he liked me. Anyone, by his choice of free will, he can love any damn thing. It doesn't matter. That is called kṛpā-siddhi. "I like this man. This man must be prominent." That is his will. It doesn't matter on qualification. So all these people, they liked me not on my qualification, but out of affection, out of good will. (laughs) Other, a woman. Woman means my mother-in-law. She was woman. Out of affection for her daughter, she would sacrifice everything for the..., so that her daughter may not be unhappy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother-in-law. You said that when you took sannyāsa, she could not take it.

Prabhupāda: No, I must admit she was very, very kind. Very, very kind. Although she's woman, but on account of her daughter... Whatever I'll command, she'll suffer. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitèṇām. We become indebted in this way with so many people. Devarṣi.

 

Room Conversation                                  February 21, 1977, Māyāpura                                                       486089

(devotees exclaim--lights go out?) This is the benefit of modern science, (laughter) (Prabhupāda laughs) that in the evening you require light--there is no light in the evening. When you require, there is no light. Better depend on the natural oil.

Bhāgavata: In Satya-yuga or Tretā-yuga they would not drill for petrol to use to make electricity or to make these gas lamps, so by what means did they use to light the palaces and the kingdoms? What was the natural resource utilized for that purpose?

Prabhupāda: This oil. You produce castor seed oil. You grow castor seed by agricultural.

Bhāgavata: Grow cas...?

Prabhupāda: Castor seed.

Bhāgavata: Castor seed.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and you get sufficient oil.

Bhāgavata: And that was used, castor seed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Instead of one cand..., one lamp, hundred candlepower, if you want more light you just have hundred castor seed lamps. That's all. It will look beautiful, and there'll be light. You'll find it. If you bring one hundred castor seed lamps, it will look very nice and the light is there. (end)

 

Evening Darsan                                        February 24, 1977, Māyāpura                                                        486169

Prabhupāda: Let us try to give a substantial platform of civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. (sound of thunder and rain) This time rainfall is very beneficial for crops. This is the way of living. You perform yajïa, there will be rain. And as soon as the ground is moist, you can produce anything, whatever you want. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From the field, you can get all your necessities of life. The first necessity is the food grain. So food grain you can eat, and the rejected grass portion, you give to the cows. So both the animal and the man get sufficient food. And the cows will give you nice milk, and from milk you can get butter, ghee, yogurt, so many nice sweetmeat. And there is ghee, and here is food grain, then you make kacuri, puri, samosā. Then sufficient foodstuff, nice, palatable, nutritious. First necessity is āhāra. You get sufficient āhāra. Then make little cottage for shelter. Just like there is rainfall. Now you require little... (thunder sounds) Āhāra, nidrā, bhaya, and sex. So marry. Then the whole problem is solved. And then, rest time you save and advance in Kṛṣṇa conscious... This is civilization. Why you create unnecessary necessities of life and become complicated and forget Kṛṣṇa? What is this civilization? Rascal civilization. Instead of giving protection to the cows, you are cutting the throat. Is that civilization? So this is a civilization of duṣkṛtina, means mischief monger. Therefore they must suffer, and suffering. And asuras are being created. And Kṛṣṇa's business is to kill the asuras. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. This is going on. This is material nature. Asuras are being created, and the whole plan is to kill them. So struggle for existence. The asuras, they want to live. Mahiṣāsura he's struggling with the weapons of Māyā, Durgā. He'll be failure, but still--ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham--by false egotism he's thinking, "I shall conquer over the material..." That is scientist, so-called scientist. Asuras are... They are planning that "We shall do without nature's control." That is mūòha. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... They cannot conquer it. That is not possible. But you are struggling. You do not want the control of nature. And nature is so strong... Now it is raining. Within one hour they can vanquish the whole world. Doesn't take time. If there is one cyclone and heavy rain, then you are put into danger. So long it is mild, it is all right. And as soon as becomes ferocious, then finish you. What you'll control the nature? When there is no rain, you cannot bring in rain; and when there is heavy rain, you cannot stop it. Then where is your control? You rascal, you think like that, "We shall control over nature." This is your rascaldom. You cannot control over. So everything has its use, and how to use it properly, that is all described in the Bhagavad-gītā. And if you take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and ultimately surrender to Him, that is success of life. Otherwise, struggle for existence, survival of the fittest... Nature is fittest. You'll die; nature will be... You are not fit to fight with the nature. That is asura temperament. And that will never be successful. So many asuras came. Formerly there was Hiraṇyakaśipu, Rāvaṇa, Kaṁsa and others. In the recent years there was Hitler, there was Churchill, there was Lenin, and Gandhi and so on, so on. For few days. Then gone: "Get out. Bas. Finished." Big, big scientists, big, big asuras, big, big leaders, what they could do? Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ.

                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                        486263

Prabhupāda: This is a good chance of United Nation--Indian, Americans, Englishmen, German, all mixed together.

Jayatīrtha: Our Amsterdam temple has about sixty devotees, and they're from seventeen different countries, seventeen different nationalities are represented in the temple. There's nowhere else where so many different nationalities are living together.

Prabhupāda: No. This is the nucleus of United Nations, real. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam, to understand everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. That is the basic principle of United Nation. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. In that stage there can be equality. Otherwise not.

                                                                                                                                                                        486321

Prabhupāda: This warfield painting is done very nicely.

Jayatīrtha: I think so.

Prabhupāda: Who has done it?

Jayatīrtha: Parīkṣit.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Actual.

Jayatīrtha: People I've shown it to like it much better than this picture. It's more realistic. Has a very classical look.

Prabhupāda: This is a protest against Gandhi's nonviolence, (laughter) bogus nonviolence. So it is a protest against that idea.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, this is not a nonviolent picture.

Prabhupāda: I do not know how he wanted to draw nonviolence from this idea. This is going on, distorting the real fact. Politics without violence is impossible. There is a Bengali proverb, Naste base gun tata:(?) "A girl has come to the stage for dancing, and she is pulling her veil." (laughs) She has to dance freely, and what is the use of...? Nasta base gun tata.(?) In politics nonviolence, there is no history. The Britishers took it an opportunity to continue their ruling.

Room Conversation                                   February 25, 1977, Māyāpura                                                      487062

Prabhupāda: So I am requesting you that from India you take books and distribute, and in exchange, half the money you send us in powdered milk and ghee.

Bali-mardana: Hm. Yes, I am prepared to order all the hardbound books from India. I've already ordered forty thousand Bhagavad-gītās and some four or five thousand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams.

Prabhupāda: So wherever we have got center in India, just like this Mahesh Pandit, if we supply them the chānā dāl and puri and halavā and nice, what is called, puṣpānna, his great-grandfather will come to eat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. They'll give up all their fish-eating, that whole community.

Prabhupāda: So from this milk powder we can make this chānā and dahi, and ghee is there.

Bali-mardana: Chānā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheese.

Prabhupāda: Cheese. And you produce in the farm milk and utilize and give the cows protection.

Bali-mardana: Yes. I was thinking that we should not increase the cows too many in the beginning...

Prabhupāda: No.

Bali-mardana: ...because I want to make sure they are maintained nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maintain means fodder. Grow fodder. They will eat that leaf.

                                                                                                                                                          487097

Prabhupāda: For making devotees. It is not for business.

                                                                                                                                                                        487108

Prabhupāda: And in Hyderabad let us produce grains. The grains, milk, ghee--then we can maintain hundreds and thousands of devotees in any place. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take nice food.

                                                                                                                                                                        487125

Prabhupāda: Arrange all this. Our philosophy is "Eat nicely, live nicely, and advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." First problem is eating. That we shall supply, no problem. Eating and clothing we shall give. And shelter. Make this propaganda. They put this logic, "If we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, who shall earn? Who will earn for us?" The Indians, they do that. Rascals, they do that. They do not know Kṛṣṇa provides. So we give them that "You... I give you shelter, food, cloth. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Bali-mardana: Full program.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: Everything provided. Wherever we open these farming communities, people then they respect us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: Say, "Oh, you are doing something."

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's order, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. (break) ...is important, not that the learned brāhmaṇa class is important and śūdra, he is not im... He is also important. He is giving you service according to his quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. And center is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I think from Africa also they can send because...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk products. Yes, they had great milk products when I was there.

Indian man (1): Very good cows there.

Bali-mardana: We should investigate from Argentina. He said it was very cheap.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now we're not in Argentina anymore. Amsterdam.

Prabhupāda: We shall regain again.

Bali-mardana: The government there is changing every few months, new government.

Prabhupāda: If you can introduce this system, varṇāśrama, then it will establish. No more change. This is a rascal's government, this democracy.

                                                                                                                                                                        487140

Prabhupāda: No consideration. Kill them. Due to Paraśurāma, the kṣatriyas went to European side, fled away. From India either they were driven away or killed when they become inconsistent with Vedic rules. So these kṣatriyas and associates... These parts of the world were resided by aborigines, mean uncivilized class. So for so many years associated with them, they have learned killing the an... Otherwise they're Aryans.

                                                                                                                                                                        487153

Prabhupāda: You can develop similar places. Land is so cheap.

Bali-mardana: Oh, yes. Australia...

Hari-śauri: There's so much land in Australia.

Bali-mardana: Soon as we have our center...

Prabhupāda: In Africa also, land is cheap. Give this civilization. Then our mission will be... The African people are nice. Everywhere they are nice. These rascal leaders make them bad. In Russia also they have nice people. These, a few rascals, they are controlling the government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Leaders are bad all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: America also.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere the mass people is good. We know it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This prasādam and chanting will cure them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will capture the masses.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So do this.

Bali-mardana: In Australia, Prabhupāda, the people, they love prasāda. We had a program. They did one alternative life-style festival, and the people lined up for three hours, waiting for the prasāda.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Bali-mardana: Over a thousand people. And then when they ate they came back for seconds and thirds.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Give them.

Bali-mardana: Everything. Puri,sabji, sweet rice. They ate the whole plate. It was amazing.

Prabhupāda: Please do that. Give them prasādam and ask them to chant. Bas.

Bali-mardana: And then there were many articles written in the paper that the Hare Kṛṣṇas, they have supplied very nice food freely for everyone and they said, "Oh, they are very good."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is when they take prasāda, then it's very easy to get them to chant.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may not chant in the beginning, but as soon as their bellies are full of prasāda, then they chant.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) They chant. Very good. Do that.

Bali-mardana: We have a bus. They travel all over just for distributing prasāda.

Prabhupāda: Now, on this subject matter, you GBC decide how to do it and do it practically.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the real business of talking.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. How the supply will come, and everything, make program and do that. There will be no difficulty. Kṛṣṇa will supply you everything. No difficulty. Actually Kṛṣṇa is supplying. Now we are known all over the world, "very rich." Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Fabulously rich."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Fabulously rich," they say in Parliament.

Prabhupāda: So I started... Was I rich?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Forty rupees.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom...? Forty rupees. So it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. So if we work sincerely, Kṛṣṇa will supply us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That point we have seen proven more than anything else. You've always said this, and more and more, Kṛṣṇa is supplying everything.

Prabhupāda: No, it is, after all, Kṛṣṇa's. Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. It is His property. As soon as He sees that "Here is My real servant." "Give him all facility." It is stated in the... Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām... You know? Nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Everything is there.

Hari-śauri: Ananyāś cintayanto mām...

Prabhupāda: Ananyāś cinta... Simply you have to think how to execute Kṛṣṇa's program. Ananyāś cintayanto mām?

Hari-śauri: Ye janāḥ paryupāsate.

Prabhupāda: Ye janāḥ paryupāsate: "One who has dedicated his life for this program," teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānām, "because he is twenty-four hours engaged," yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Clear. Purport? Read.

Hari-śauri: Translation: "Those who worship Me with devotion, meditating on My transcendental form, to them I carry what they lack and preserve what they have." Purport. "One who is unable to live for a moment without Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot but think of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours, being engaged in devotional service by hearing, chanting, remembering, offering prayers, worshiping, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, rendering other services, cultivating friendship and surrendering fully to the Lord. Such activities are all-auspicious and full of spiritual potency. Indeed, they make the devotee perfect in self-realization. Then his only desire is to achieve the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called yoga. By the mercy of the Lord such a devotee never comes back to this material condition of life. Kṣema refers to the merciful protection of the Lord. The Lord helps the devotee to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness by yoga, and when he becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, the Lord protects him from falling down to a miserable conditioned life."

Prabhupāda: Why not do this business, guaranteed by Kṛṣṇa?

Bali-mardana: By your grace it is all possible. By your grace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) You do this.

Bali-mardana: I think the potency is all coming from you.

Prabhupāda: No, it is there. I am simply trying to place before you. That's all. I believe. And that is my qualification. It is not that I doubt, no. You can say that is my qualification. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu. Find out this verse. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, beginning of the...

Prabhupāda: Seventh Chapter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventh Chapter. "Without doubt, free from doubt."

Bali-mardana: Hm. "Now hear, free from doubt."

Hari-śauri: Yes.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

"Now hear, O son..."

Prabhupāda: J-ï-a means "gya" or "jïa."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Either one can be said, "jïa," or "gya."

Hari-śauri: Jïāsyasi. "Now hear, O son of Pṛthā, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt."

Bali-mardana: Hm. One must become free from all doubt.

Prabhupāda: And then?

Bali-mardana: You always said because you had faith in the words of your Guru Mahārāja, therefore...

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. Similar surrender to guru. Yathā deve, as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa--similar to guru--then your life is perfect. Yathā deve tathā gurau, tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante. Then this meaning of the scripture will be revealed automatically. And you are singing daily, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā. Nothing more. Then your life is perfect. This is secret. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas, rascal. Then it is finished. In material world everyone is a demon-crazy. Everyone is manufacturing ideas. And they are suffering. All rascals, are manufacturing ideas. Kartāham iti manyate. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's fully under control of the laws of nature and he's thinking, "I am independent. I can manufacture ideas." Āòhyo 'bhijanavān... That is... Find out this. Āòhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti, some like that, in the Sixteenth Chapter. "Demon-crazy." Crazy demons are thinking like that. (chuckles) "I can manufacture something. I am very intelligent. We"...

                                                                                                                                                                                    487248

"The demoniac person thinks, 'So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him, and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifice, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way such persons are deluded by ignorance."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he gets a toothache and it's all finished. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. The rascal Sai Baba says, "I am God."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it seems that they have detected him for sure. He's really becoming publicly denounced now all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They were saying, those two Bengali gentlemen this morning, the film producers, were saying that the scholars here now and some of the newspaper people are beginning to expose, that "This is a complete cheater. This Sai Baba is cheating, and why are the innocent people falling for him? What kind of fool is he that he says he's God?" It's a good thing that they're exposing him, because he was the most acclaimed so-called "bhagavān" of them all. He is the most respected around India of all of these bogus gurus.

Bali-mardana: Now all the other gurus have faded away. You are...

Hari-śauri: There's only you left, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bali-mardana: You're the only one left. All the bogus gurus have faded away. The Maharishi...

Prabhupāda: That Sadaji Vilal has said that "Bhaktivedanta Swami... (Hindi)"

Hari-śauri: "Blackened everybody else's face."

Prabhupāda: He said.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) He said that. (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And coming from him it's especially relishable, because he used to criticize you for denouncing all of them.

Prabhupāda: Means he's an intelligent businessman. (laughing) He can understand. He's the disciple of Chinmayananda. But he has realized that "What Chinmayananda is before Bhaktivedanta Swami?" That he realizes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to criticize Prabhupāda. He used to tell me, "Your Guru Mahārāja is always denouncing all the other gurus in public."

Prabhupāda: Now he is doing that, (laughs) following me.

Hari-śauri: Actually you're very well known for criticizing everybody else.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uncompromising.

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was also alone. And why not? All these rascals, why shall I call him intelligent?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You give them no credit.

Prabhupāda: How can I give them? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ: "Anyone who has not fully surrendered to..., he is this, duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ." That's a fact. Just see. This man has got some intelligence. He's simply cheating. This is duṣkṛtina. He should have preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has got intelligence. He has created a position, means this is intelligent. But that intelligence he's applying for declaring himself as God. Therefore duṣkṛtina. Intelligence being used for some bad purpose. He's not God. Cheating purpose. He knows it. Everyone knows that he does not know. But he is using his intelligence for some bad purpose for making some temporary position. How rascal he is. He's not God. Suppose he is accepted as God. But he is imitation or cheating God. How long it will go on? But he's such a rascal he does not know that. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Therefore mūòha. For few years, suppose he remains so-called God. What is the benefit? Next life he may become a dog. What is the benefit? Therefore mūòha.

Māyā-sukhāya, indriyārtham. Indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. Hm? For sense gratification for a few years and make such gorgeous cheating process. Therefore he's rascal. He does not know the value of his eternal life, how he is going to become a dog next life. He knows, but he doesn't care. He's such a rascal. For temporary happiness, men and woman, er, woman and money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīm. He doesn't care.

Prabhupāda: No. They are... And woman and money, that will not solve the problems of our life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They increase the problems of life.

Prabhupāda: Even bird and beast, they can get woman.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Bali-mardana: Birds and beast.

Prabhupāda: I have seen. I have studied this cricket (cricket sounds in room), that come for... Two of, the male and female.

Hari-śauri: Yes. And every morning you can see these sparrows.

Prabhupāda: Every.

Hari-śauri: Very busy making nests.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. This male and female, nature's gift that is. Therefore tasyaiva hetoḥ. These things you'll get.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So why use the...?

Prabhupāda: Why you are after these things?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Wasting human life.

Prabhupāda: You'll get woman. So be satisfied, the nature's gift of woman, nature's gift of your position, and utilize your life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why more and more, more, and naked and this way and that way? The other day what did I say?

                                                                                                                                                                        487297

Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇòūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. The rascals. Kṛpaṇa means non-brāhmaṇa, without any spiritual knowledge. They are never satisfied, the vagina business. Tṛpyanti neha kṛp-- although it is followed by so much miserable condition--bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ kaṇòūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. One who is dhīra, sober, he tolerates little itching sensation: "What this nonsense?" And if you practice toleration, there will be no more. Finished. You become liberated. Therefore, from the very beginning of life, childhood, this teach him, that "Don't be a vagina-smelling animal." Brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dāntaḥ. To learn how to control the senses, that is brahmacārī. Where is that civilization? So establish. Give them food. Give them shelter. Give them knowledge. That is para-upakāra, doing welfare to others. But don't be entangled in vagina civilization. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. It is most abominable civilization, tuccham, condemned civilization.

Bali-mardana: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: Do this. What is my idea I have given. Hm, Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Apareyam... (break) ...inferior. These rascals, they do not. The superior thing they do not know. They are simply entangled in this material, inferior. Psychologist, psychiatrist. (sound of shenai) Now there is moon. Intelligence. Intelligence, I think, they take it as soul. Therefore they say that the animal has no soul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But an animal has intelligence. An animal also has some small degree of intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying the cows, when they know there is something there, they stay away.

Prabhupāda: No. They can understand that "These people are going to kill us. These people will not kill us." They can understand. You know that when I was in America some incident took place, that some slaughterhouse livestock, the..., somehow or other, it was open, and they were fleeing away, going away. Something happened. They were going up on the slaughterhouse, and some of them were shooted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cows were running away?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Unless they could understand that "We are kept here for being slaughtered," why they were running away?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They speak of peace, such nonsense. How can they expect peace when they're slaughtering?

Prabhupāda: All do. It is very, very demons', the Western civilization. No social structure, no mercy. All good qualities devoid. Simply animals in good dress. That's all. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                             February 25, 1977, Mayapur                                                         486929

Rāmeśvara: What about the idea that "You do not have to move into a temple, give up your family and everything, but you can actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in your own home," that idea that "It is available to you..."

Prabhupāda: No, that chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa does not mean whimsical.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless, he must be properly initiated. It does not mean that he should not be initiated and chant. That is not the idea. You can... Must be initiated, either you are a gṛhastha or sannyāsī or brahmacārī. Not that without being initiated you'll whimsically chant and the effect will be the same. No. You must be initiated. Ādau gurvāśrayam. You must accept a guru.

Rāmeśvara: If you want to sell some product, you may make so many claims, and then the public will buy. So sometimes we quote these psychologists who have done studies that "If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there are some good effects."

Prabhupāda: Good there is undoubtedly. If you eat something, there will be some effect of eating. But if it is properly eaten, properly made, it will be, have better effect. That is the idea.

Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that something is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: If you advertise the mahā-mantra gives some material benefit, isn't that an offense?

Prabhupāda: Then that is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: One of the ten offenses.

Rāmeśvara: 'Cause sometimes when we interview these people who are chanting, they speak from their own realization, and it is not exactly the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it is not..., but it is their own realization, whatever little bit they have realized.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that "If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective."

Rāmeśvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Premā pum-artho mahān. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, nāmākṣara bahir haya nāma nāhi haya: "The... Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nāma." Nāmākṣara, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.

Rāmeśvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations... (break)

Brahmānanda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.

Rāmeśvara: So that distinction should be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that somehow this magazine...

Prabhupāda: No, another thing, it is aparādha... Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. Unless he is in the process he'll think, "I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, so whatever sinful activities I am..., it will be controlled."

Brahmānanda: That's the worst offense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very bad offense.

Hari-śauri: So we're actually advertising the process of devotional service, not just simply haphazard chanting.

Prabhupāda: First of all we are chanting just to make him little attracted. Ādau śraddhā.

Rāmeśvara: Just to popularize it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Then, if the heart is little cleansed, then they will understand. It will be effective, but when it is done properly it will give real effect. Outsider, those who are chanting, we don't discourage him.

Rāmeśvara: We want then to chant more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we must... They must know the science also.

Rāmeśvara: Just like this Alice Coltrane. She has done her small part. She made this record album with Govinda Jaya Jaya and Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is... That will be a good thing. But when he (she) does it properly it will be more effective, because there is... If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance.

Rāmeśvara: So in the past, in the magazine, we have only shown people chanting if they were initiated devotees, shaven-headed, living in temple. And recently they have adopted to show people who have jobs outside the movement, and they are not brahmacārī or sannyāsī. They're also chanting, to give the public the idea that...

Prabhupāda: So that we are giving, the facility to chant and take prasādam, but at the same time, gradually, if chanting is effective, then next we have to make it in the process.

Brahmānanda: We want to bring them to the process.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ultimate. That is stated by Rūpa Gosvāmī,

yena tena prakāreṇa

manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet

sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur

etayor eva kiìkarāḥ

that "Somehow or other, bring him to chant Kṛṣṇa or to become little Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, when he's little purified, then the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ..." He's not rejecting the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ means regulative principles. It is not rejected, that... But when he's a little purified, this vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiìkarāḥ. Just like one... First of all let him become rich, get some money. And then, when he has got money, he can keep some servant, some assistant, some secretaries, like that. First of all earn money.

Rāmeśvara: So one step at a time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But organized business means there must be so many men, secretary, manager. That is regulated. So in the beginning, "All right, bring some money somehow. Then I shall..." So you cannot reject this organization because he's chanting. Then what is the use of writing so many books, the nāma-aparādha and other discussions, if anyone can chant?

Rāmeśvara: So it definitely has to lead them to that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we must come to that point. In the beginning you may be very liberal: "All right, chant." We do like that, and I have done it. There is no regulation. But that does not..., that it should be neglected. He should be given affirmed, "By simply, whimsically chanting this..." No, that is not.

Hari-śauri: Niyamāgraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.

Rāmeśvara: I've seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now...

Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.

Rāmeśvara: Now, these scientists, they are studying Hare Kṛṣṇa meditation, but they're also studying some other processes which are not authorized. And they are...

Prabhupāda: That is the defect.

Rāmeśvara: And they're stating that in general, to meditate, to chant mantra, this is good, this is healthy for the mind.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The thing is that some way or other, if you are near the fire, you'll get some heat, but there is a process how to take heat.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: That you cannot reject. "Because I am getting little heat, it is sufficient," that is sahajiyā.

Rāmeśvara: So we are trying to use their endorsements and then make it very specific that "Therefore to meditate using the Hare Kṛṣṇa, this is healthy." So why are you attacking us?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We're trying like that. They are endorsing something else.

Prabhupāda: This is a better meditation. Meditation... One is performing meditation silently. But if we chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa," it is forced meditation. He has to meditate. So it is better meditation. Just like they're chanting. I am engaged in different business. Still, I am hearing. (kīrtana in background) This is the... And one is silently meditating, he's getting, maybe he's getting the benefit, but here anyone who is hearing, getting benefit. Therefore chanting is better than... Yes. And it is recommended by Haridāsa Öhākura that... This is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that "Chanting, even the trees, even the insects and the animals, they will hear and they get the benefit." So it is better meditation. Even the trees, plants, animals, birds, beasts, they can take benefit. And if it is done by pure Vaiṣṇava, then they get the full benefit.

 

Evening Darsan                                          February 25, 1977, Mayapur                                                        486494

Prabhupāda: ...earning and cow protection. You must do it. The other day I was explaining that not from economic point of view, even the cows do not supply milk, still, they should be protected.

Bali-mardana: Hm. Just to protect them.

Prabhupāda: Because that stool and urine is also useful. Cow is so important. They'll eat and they'll pass stool and urine. That is also important. If they supply milk, it is well, very good. Otherwise the stool and urine is also important. From that point of view we should give protection. So they are doing this cow slaughter business. (aside:) For you. Therefore they are suffering so much.

                                                                                                                                                                        486549

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you maintain cows and get ghee.

Bali-mardana: When we were flying over Australia when you first came there, you pointed down and you said...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: "You just get some land here and..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: "...maintain cows and all..."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You remember it.

Bali-mardana: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: So I was thinking, "I must fulfill this instruction."

Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idam. Everything is complete by the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa. Simply we mismanage. That's all. I do not know why people are engaged with politics, fighting, and so on, so on. By Kṛṣṇa's grace everything is complete. You eat sufficiently, you be strong and keep your health good and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the arrangement. These rascals, they have created civilization, simply animosity--fighting, politics. This is Kali-yuga. Kali means simply unnecessarily fights. There is no need of fighting, but they'll create a situation, fighting. That's all. This is Kali-yuga, unnecessarily. Why politics? Why so much discussion, barking in the United Nations? Kṛṣṇa has given the formula. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. In America, Australia, Africa, they can produce so much grain that ten times of the population as it is now can be maintained. Similarly, Australia can produce ghee. So by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement everything is all right, the economic problem. Why they create this situation and occasionally fight and finish the whole...? Such a rubbish civilization, rākṣasa, unnecessarily increasing military power and spending all the revenues. Russia spends sixty-five percent--unnecessarily. And still starving. So this is mūòha, duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina, only engaged in sinful activities, duṣkṛtina, and rascals, mūòha, narādhama. He got the opportunity of this human life, and it misusing unnecessarily--narādhama. And their university education--māyayāpahṛta, useless knowledge, useless. Apahṛta-jïāna. Actually they have no knowledge. Why? The only fault is there is no God. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. So one... That is the basic fault. Everyone is trying: "There is no God. Science." This is the basic principle. So the whole human society is suffering on account of these fools and rascals. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is para-upakāra, how to bring them in peaceful condition, in normal mental condition, and make this life successful by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to do it very carefully. It is para-upakāra. So always remember this fact, that they are..., the whole world is being controlled by āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, atheist class of men, and people are suffering everywhere. But Kṛṣṇa also descends when such condition prevailing. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. So now Kṛṣṇa has descended in His name. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa-avatāra. So try to do some good to the society. You have got a great mission and don't deviate. Try to... And Kṛṣṇa will give you all help. So, but always keep in mind that this civilization is a wrong civilization. Wrong civilization. It is not quite civil. What do you think? In Hong Kong I have seen. People are living so wretchedly.

                                                                                                                                                                        486707

Ghanaśyāma: (laughter) (break) They want to buy the book themself. (break) and sell them to individuals.

Prabhupāda: That I was proposing...

Satsvarūpa: This man, Ghanaśyāma...

Prabhupāda: I proposed to you?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Next program.

Satsvarūpa: He is very expert at doing it. He thinks he can do it. But is it all right... There's still more universities to be done. The question is whether one man should be spared to try out this new field...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I proposed.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. I know you did, many times.

Prabhupāda: Individual standing orders. Unlimited field.

Satsvarūpa: You told the method too. You first call up... First send out mail to some respectable person. Then a week later call him on the phone and ask if we can visit him--has he received our mailer, and now can we visit him? Try that.

Prabhupāda: What do you think, this idea?

Tripurāri: Well, we tried it a little bit in the United States, but I think that the major difficulty was getting the people to pay. They would pay, perhaps promise to pay, but then they wouldn't follow through. We were afraid they would cancel the order.

Prabhupāda: That you have to manage, how to collect. You give him in credit, but keep men also to collect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Collection agency.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it will be successful. You can give it... Americans are expert to take in credit, but the banking arrangement is nice, that they get back. Similarly, you give them credit. They will take it and then make such machinery that it will be collected. Collected means to go and ask. Then it will be collected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you have to do? Go and ask.

Prabhupāda: Go and ask. In India it is called takata. Takata(?) means "send men." If somebody owes money, you go and ask him. So he'll pay something. If not all, he'll pay. In this way realize.

Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Currently there's only about six or eight people that are doing this type of work in Europe and then other parts of the world, excluding India. And if we were to start this program, there would be a necessity of more men that would have to be supplied...

Prabhupāda: As you are preaching, more men will come. Man will come; money will come. Everything will be all right. Kṛṣṇa will supply. Now, here, this Chinese Gītā, they have already sold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nearly five thousand copies sold.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that you first of all have the stock. Then sell. You must have stock.

Bhūgarbha: But to do these standing from house to house... We should also continue standing orders in universities. Should that stop while...?

Prabhupāda: No. Side by side, you can go on. Kṛṣṇa is eternal. His business is also eternal. It will never finish.

Païcadraviòa: This standing orders to individuals, is that something like life membership program?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many educated, enlightened men. They will take.

Tripurāri: So we should pick out certain individuals, then, to approach, not just go door to door.

Prabhupāda: This is Melbourne.

Bali-mardana: Melbourne temple.

Prabhupāda: Gaura-Nitāi is wonderful, Melbourne. Eh?

Bali-mardana: Here is another picture, just of Gaura-Nitāi.

Prabhupāda: This Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You brought from India.

Hari-śauri: That's right.

Bali-mardana: You personally...

Hari-śauri: Bali-mardana was the one who brought them, with you

Bali-mardana: And you personally carried the Sydney Deities also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: It is all by your grace.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Sydney Deity.

Bali-mardana: This is... Balarāma here is the president of Melbourne, and he is also pūjārī.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Bali-mardana: Balarāma dāsa.

Prabhupāda: This is Gaura-Nitāi.

Bali-mardana: Yeah. The standard is very high, I think.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Very nice. Thank you very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally speaking, in India people are willing to become our life members.

Prabhupāda: Let them become life members.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. What would be... I don't see the advantage of this program, because life membership, you get more money.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: But they don't get the books.

Prabhupāda: So either become a life member or customer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's their choice.

Lokanātha: We have cut down the number of the books that we are giving to the members now and giving only five big books.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. But they can't read them all.

Prabhupāda: Let them read and exchange.

 

Evening Darsan                                         February 26, 1977, Mayapur                                                         487333

Prabhupāda: Dhīra means who is restful, not restless; dhīra, whose brain is cool, sober. Just like a high court judge. He is sitting simply, and the cāparāsī, he is busy. The cāparāsī gets, say, two hundred rupees, and he gets five thousand rupees. But he is doing nothing, a dhīra, 'cause his importance is many, many times greater than the cāparāsī. So dhīra means sober. If we become sober, not restless, then it is possible to understand. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. There are two classes: dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra means always foolishly busy, and dhīra means sober. He's trying to understand what is God. That is dhīra.

Guest (1): That is actually what we have always taught, you know, to do it. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇy evā...

Guest (1): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: No, simply you do not quote that verse. You first begin from ABCD. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Unless you begin ABCD, you cannot go, immediately jump up to the M.A. class.

Guest (1): No, that karma itself is not something...

Prabhupāda: No, why do you quote karma? Why you do not quote the beginning, the beginning of ABCD? If you have no knowledge of the ABCD, then karma... The monkey is also very busy, jumping, but as soon as a monkey comes, "Eh! Get out! Get out! Get out!" But he is thinking he's very busy. That, such kind of karma, will simply create disturbance. We must know what is karma. Karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam. We should understand what is karma. So anyway...

                                                                                                                                                                        487348

Prabhupāda: It is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside:) If there are outsiders, they should be given plate. (break) The dhīras tatra na muhyati. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. These words are there. Actually to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, it is not for ordinary person.

Brahmānanda: What is the qualification for understanding?

Prabhupāda: These things are there. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. The rājarṣi means the topmost class. Rāja means government or the king. So simply the government man or the king will not suffice. He must be ṛṣi, saintly person. So, topmost man in the society, at the same time, he must be saintly. That is the qualification of understanding Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa uses this word, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ.

Brahmānanda: Sometimes we see that an Indian, he's living at least a more saintly life than the life that we have led, but sometimes we are more qualified to hear than some Indian men.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because you have got qualification--dhīra. What I say, you hear with patience. And those who are adhīra, they cannot. Sometimes... Aye. (someone enters) You can come this side. (break) Two words is very important. One is, that in the beginning one must be dhīra, not restless. Restlessness is for the animal, or a child. He is restless. He cannot understand. An animal, a cat and dog... Sometimes they remain very silent before the master, but not always. Their habit is not silent. So this understanding, that "I am not this body," is not possible for, say, restless person, that "I am not this body." It is specially mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, dhīra. He must not be a restless animal, always busy. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy. But as soon as the monkey comes, everyone knows he is very busy. He can jump very nicely. And immediately they take a stick, "Get out! Get out! Get out!" Busy fool. Fool, if he remains little silent, so he does less harm. But if he is busy, he is more harmful. So this is the position at the present moment, that people are kept in the animal civilization and they are busy. So they are creating more harm. It is not for the good of the society. They are creating more harm. This dehātma-buddhi is the conception of the animals.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijïeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

So this dehātma-buddhi, "I am this body," is very strong at the present. They think dehātma-buddhi, extended, is very good. And that I was speaking, that a person is taking care of his own body or own dress, but they say, "We shall not take care of my body but for others body also, my son's body, my grandson's body, my relative's body." So that means extending the activities of taking care of the dress. So that I said, that a washerman is taking care of many people's dress, but that does not mean that he is very elevated man. He is nothing but a washerman. But people are interested to take care of the dress. This body is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya. We are changing the dress. And so long we are interested with dress of the body, not of the body, so the person who has got this body will remain animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. So people are not prepared even to hear about this distinction, that "I am not this body; you are not this body." The modern civilization has trained up, educated people, in such a way that the more you think yourself, "I am this body--'I am American,' 'I am Indian,' 'I am brāhmaṇa,' 'I am this, I am that' "--and you feel and act like that and create trouble like that, then you are called civilized. Is it not? This is the defect of modern civilization. The more you keep yourself in the darkness of accepting this body as yourself--national feeling, social feeling, family feeling, community feeling--then... But we are speaking from a different platform. Our movement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So Kṛṣṇa begins His teaching from a different platform. He begins from the platform of the soul. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. His teaching to Arjuna begins, first of all convincing him that "You are not this body." And He's describing the nature of the soul--na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate--in so many ways, adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyo 'yam, so many.     

 

Room Conversation                                   February 27, 1977, Mayapur                                                        487591

Prabhupāda: No, no, marriage, they do not speak. That is the disease in your country, that... There is no objection nineteen-years-old boy and twelve-years girl, it is very good combination, but the culture is so bad that after few days they will separate.

Rādhā-vallabha: Yes. That's the actual problem.

Prabhupāda: If they stick to have one husband and one wife, it is very good. Or even the man can marry more than one wife. That is allowed in the Vedic system. The difficulty is nobody remains as wife, nobody remains husband. It is very dangerous. That is against Vedic. Otherwise man can have more than one wife, but woman cannot marry more than one husband. But the system--the boys and girls intermingle so freely, and in your country there is no restriction--naturally it becomes adulterated. That is the danger.

Rādhā-vallabha: So he wanted to know that...

Prabhupāda: Knowing or no knowing, they'll not do with him. So what is the use of consulting me? They'll break. They'll promise and they'll break. How you can make them standardized? They will break.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have to be responsible people.

Prabhupāda: They'll never become. That is my experience. So what is the use of consulting me? They'll never become. Almost impossible. They'll not keep standardized.

Rādhā-vallabha: So it should just be up to them.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of consulting? They'll promise and they'll break.

Rādhā-vallabha: Yes, you were telling me in Hawaii about that, that that is the difficulty. They have no responsibility. All right, I'll tell him that.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rādhā-vallabha: I will tell him that.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is no objection. I married; my wife was eleven years old.

Rādhā-vallabha: You were responsible, though.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rādhā-vallabha: But you were responsible.

Prabhupāda: Everyone in India responsible. That is Indian culture still.

Rādhā-vallabha: Should... When they agree at this young age, they should wait till they get older, right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Generally a girl attains puberty at fourteen years, thirteen years. In India because it is tropical climate... I think in Western countries they attain puberty not before fifteen, sixteen years. So although a girl is married before puberty, she is not allowed to go to the husband until she has attained puberty. Formerly, in our days also, after attaining puberty there is another second marriage. Then the husband and wife live together.

Rādhā-vallabha: Is there a minimum age for the man?

Prabhupāda: No. That is... Minimum age means generally the husband must be older than the wife, at least five years' difference.

Rādhā-vallabha: What is the most amount of years they can be different? What is the maximum amount of years there can be difference?

Prabhupāda: Man has no maximum. Even an eighty-years-old man can marry a sixteen-years-old girl. (laughter)

Rādhā-vallabha: Because this one devotee has a daughter twelve and he wanted to marry her to a man twenty-six, but he thought that was too much difference.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is too much difference. But eight years, ten years usual.

Rādhā-vallabha: Eight or ten years is best. So he also wanted to know if...

Prabhupāda: That is healthy.

Rādhā-vallabha: He wanted to know also...

Prabhupāda: And in no case... The girl must not be older than the boy. That's not good at all.

 

Room Conversation(2)                            February 27, 1977, Mayapur                                                          487496

Prabhupada: Instead of keeping in the bank, keep books stock. It will save.That principles let us follow. Simply keep the book that it may not be spoiled, it may not be stolen. Otherwise it is our..., as good as government currency notes. Take that. As soon as there is money, convert it into books.

Harikeśa: I was thinking also that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa could buy the milk powder from Bali-mardana by printing books for him. He could print the books in India for Australia...

Prabhupāda: I have suggested already, already suggested that "Take milk powder and ghee from Australia, and every center distribute prasādam like anything." And in India at least, if you give them nice puri and chānā preparation and sweet preparation from milk, oh, they'll be so glad, both poor man and rich man. Yesterday I was eating kacuris. What is this kacuri? Made of ghee. Samosā, made of ghee; rasagullā, made of... Cow is so important. She can deliver so many nice preparations, sweet and salty. The whole world does not know how to eat. Like rākṣasas they are killing the poor animals. So we have to teach. This is an introduction of new type of civilization for making life successful.

Harikeśa: This news in India that they are outlawing cow-killing--some news has been coming that they're outlawing cow-killing in India--is very encouraging to all the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are doing it on account of this movement. Government has appreciation our movement, from private sources.

Room Conversation                                  February 28, 1977, Māyāpura                                                       487957

Prabhupāda: ...the varṇāśrama established, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra--division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly. They should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice--just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament--there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament. They assemble. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindā... I am proposing this because Kṛṣṇa consciousness means namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right.

                                                                                                                                                                        487971

Brahmānanda: They have much farming there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. Farming is wanted. What is this nonsense industry? When I passed through Berkeley and New York, really hellish, these buildings. Some of them are finished, all broken. Similarly London also. This civilization has no value. It is a demonic civilization. Jagataḥ ahitāya. Find out this, Sixteenth. Ugra-karma, jagataḥ ahitāya.

                                                                                                                                                                        488081

Prabhupāda: No, Indian people are more intelligent. There is no doubt about it. I... At least I see that during British period there were so many railway collisions. Now it is not there.

Bali-mardana: So many what?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Railway collisions, and now there is none with the Indian drivers. Oh, yeah. We don't find... Although the roads are horrible here and there's no lights, there are very few accidents.

Prabhupāda: That I have studied already, that British period, occasionally so many railway accidents. But the Indian people, since svarāja, I see no railway accidents. And they are being managed, these railway lines, by śūdra class, less-intelligent class. So they are so intelligent.

                                                                                                                                                                        488108

Prabhupāda: Hm. Come on. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Jaya. very nice. (someone showing pictures?) Jaya Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. We have got Balarāma, the most powerful being, so we have no fear. Balarāma. Nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. Bala-hīnena labhyaḥ.(?) "One who is not supported by Balarāma, he cannot understand, cannot come to the spiritual platform." Na medhayā na bahunā śrutena.(?) By intelligence one cannot. He must be supported by Balarāma, big brother of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute, flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture--Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

                                                                                                                                                                        488112

Prabhupāda: During Parīkṣit Mahārāja time there was only one flag. And now go to the United States organization--simply flag increasing, "United."

                                                                                                                                                                        488118

Prabhupāda: So that is not difficult. We can come to Calcutta and go to Calcutta, there. But if you organize Bombay center, recruit scientists, hold meeting, that is very nice proposal. There must be some state, ideal state. Just like the Russia is Communist state, and they're making nice propaganda, similarly we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. What do you think?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is example.

Rūpānuga: A good example is needed. A good example.

Prabhupāda: Either Manipur, anywhere. but we must have now a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. And we shall show how ideal state, wherever it is possible. I am not speaking particularly of Manipur, but Manipur, there is good chance. But we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. So go. Take prasādam.

"GBC Resolutions"

                                                                      March 1, 1977, Māyāpura                                                         488490

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to develop this, an ideal farming. If you...

Room Conversation with GBC members

                                                    March 2, 1977 (and March 3, 1977), Māyāpura                                          488662

Prabhupāda: India's leaders, they are now giving stress on agriculture. So we should very nicely organize the Hyderabad. What you have resolved about that?

Hari-śauri: What have you resolved about Hyderabad?

Rāmeśvara: We resolved that we would send money from the record sales to help develop the food projects there, the farm there and the food distribution.

Prabhupāda: First of all you depute two or three GBCs to go there and see what is their program, how they'll utilize the money.

Jayatīrtha: A committee was formed to examine the situation in depth and to make a proposal exactly how the money would be utilized, and that committee consisted of... Who were the GBC men, Satsvarūpa?

Rāmeśvara: The Indian GBC.

Jayatīrtha: Indian GBC. They were supposed to make a...

Prabhupāda: No, Indian GBC plus other GBC. Four or five men should study.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's talking about the agricultural program.

Rāmeśvara: But this ties in.

Gargamuni: Agriculture minister.

Prabhupāda: Not only here, but everywhere. The farm project is sound project. So what other things?

                                                                                                                                                                        488785

Satsvarūpa: We made resolutions regarding book distribution techniques. Any illegal techniques for book distribution, that is, illegal according to law, should be banned, including... And then a comprehensive list will follow, mainly supplied by Rāmeśvara Mahārāja. They will include some things like outright illegal techniques.

Prabhupāda: Real point is if we can introduce book, there is nothing illegal. Everything is legal. Now, to save us from so-called legal complication, we must be legal. Otherwise there is nothing illegal, what we do for Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: That was our conclusion, Prabhupāda, that there are just a few practices...

Prabhupāda: But we have to take care of the public.

Satsvarūpa: Things... Some of them mentioned were to imitate a deaf and dumb man and ask for charity, imitating that... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That's not bad. (laughter)

Kīrtanānanda: Some boys were arrested for that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They will arrest you in the United States if they catch you. They have done that.

Brahmānanda: That is considered fraud.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, the points that we are proposing to ban will not decrease book distribution, so they can be eliminated and book distribution will not be decreased.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the real legal thing is: some way or other, introduce books. Therefore... And it will be beneficial in the long time let us see. Read it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have got diamond. No buyer of diamond--that does not mean you have to throw it away…Why India's culture should be lost in this way, in the wilderness? I am not cheap patriot like Gandhi and... I want to give Indian culture to the whole world…I want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is my mission…As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma. There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming--"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side--all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost.

 

If my next life I become a worm, then it will take millions of years to evolve, again come to the human standard. How I am lost…And if somebody checks me, how great enemy he is.

 

Take these ideas all, there, everything is there, already mentioned. Cultivate. Try to give Kṛṣṇa in every... Let everyone come, stay with us, learn this art, preach all over the world.

 

And they'll be glad. They have got money and they are getting culture. I am trying for United Nations. That is real attempt of United Nation, not this United Nation; all rogues and thieves and cheaters, barking dogs. I am trying for the United Nations. Help me. This is real United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. It is United Nation. So I began this movement very humbly, loitering on the street of New York. Now it has come to this stage. Let us cooperate together nicely.

 

So they have to be convinced that these half-educated leaders cannot make you happy. It is not possible. They do not know the basic principle of life. Take guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is our movement. You'll be happy.

Rādhā-Dāmodara temple is sufficient for me…That was my Guru Mahārāja's policy. Not that all of a sudden they should now live on the floor. No, that's not possible. Then they will be disturbed.

 

That is not happiness. He does not know that in the car there are so many problems--more danger than walking.

 

Read Bhāgavatam, amalaṁ purāṇam. Read yourself, let them read. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no question of cheating or getting some some material profit out of this movement. We have no such thing. Material profit will automatically... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "You are thinking of material things so. We should come and fall down at your feet, 'Why you are worrying? You go and speak the real truth.' " (Bengali:) " 'Go and speak the truth.' " No compromise.

 

The more you try to convince others about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the more you become enlightened…You are intelligent. You have understood. Now try to transfer knowledge to the innocent persons. There must be father. That you are convinced?...So you cannot deny, "There is no God." That is not possible. The earth is the mother. They say "mother country," "mother earth." And everything is coming out from the earth.

 

Father wants him, and if he tries to bring his rascal son back, to get him to the father, father is pleased, he is pleased and our service is... Is it not? Greatest thing. So far other things, material adjustment, everything is there. Where is the scarcity? Work little, you get everything. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. There is anna, food. Because you are in the material world, you have to work little, very little. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Keep the earth moist. You produce anything… If you perform yajïa, the water will fall down. Even if you don't perform yajïa, the water is there within ground. Moisten. And if you perform yajïa, you haven't got to dig water…Try to understand the philosophy more and more. Read Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. And to your best capacity try to learn. Then you will get power more and more.

Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you?

 

But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. The truth. That is brāhmaṇa.

 

His first business is to give protection to the brāhmaṇas and the cows. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Jagad-dhitāya. Next, welfare of the others. First, Kṛṣṇa says specifically, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. He gives specific instruction: go-rakṣya, protect cows.

 

And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins.

 

Anyone who is completely free from sinful activities, he can understand Kṛṣṇa.

 

Our civilization is brahminical, brāhmaṇa. That is wanted.

 

One who knows the thing, how he can hide it? He is called jïāna-khala. He has got the knowledge but he will not give it to anyone else…That is very dangerous. Jïāna-khala. Khala means envious, "I know it..."

 

We are not... We have no interest in politics. What interest do we have in this phantasmagoria? We are not so fools. And there are so many people, they are taking part in politics. Is this sane?

 

Like blind sheep following a blind leader, they are all going to the slaughterhouse. Human life is meant for saving, but instead the leaders are keeping the people in darkness. This is suicidal.

...always studying, for the last ten years. It is my conclusion that originally everything Indian, that is very, very high grade--for human society, for personal. That is actual human civilization. Everything, hygienic principles, Vedic knowledge, moral knowledge, everything perfect.

 

And here, the civilization was plain living, simple living. Minimize the expenditure and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you will be happy…ANYWAY, NOW YOU LEARN THIS ART. Do good to the rest of the... That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Don't keep them in ignorance. That is paropakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... All saintly persons do like that. Especially Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This civilization is so dangerous. Demonic.

 

And one fourth, what you have produced, give one fourth to the king. "You come here. See, what I have produced. You take one fourth."...Yes, that was the world system…Very nice.

 

So we have got very nice diamond. Try to sell. But if there is a purchaser, he will purchase. Otherwise not. It is our duty to canvas. But we cannot sell iron instead of diamond.

 

Manage very nicely. Independently. Not to create havoc. But really to manage…Don't spoil it. So much hard labor. I started with very humble condition. Now it has come to this, such exalted position. You don't spoil it. That is my request. Increase. That will depend on your character, behavior, preaching.

 

Caste system should not be abolished, but it must be properly established. That is wanted.

 

Who is a brāhmaṇa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?

 

I am confident this will go on, provided our men are following the process which I have given to them, following the rules and regulations, chanting. Books they have got sufficient already. Simply have to repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any fool you are.

 

That day will come when we shall take all the political posts. That is Kṛṣṇa's mission.

 

Keep yourself pure, spotless…If Kṛṣṇa wants, He can give the whole world…But people are after money.

 

Jïāna-khala means envious. You have got some knowledge, but you are envious. You don't want to distribute to anyone…Monopoly. They are called jïāna-khala. But real jïānī means if you have got some knowledge, you should daily distribute it… Sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. Just like a person who has got enough knowledge, but he does not give it to others, it is to check the flame.

 

And our determination is to stop these rascals. That is our... It is not that "Let the rascals go on with their... Let us make our salvation…

 

If we also become enamored by the so-called scientists, politicians, philosophers, then we cannot preach. We must definitely be convinced that they're all rascals.

 

Anybody seriously reading our book, he'll be liberated. There is no doubt. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That's a fact. If not all books, simply Kṛṣṇa book, if one reads carefully, daily, he is liberated undoubtedly.

 

So there is no question of giving protection to the cows if it gives milk only. No. Go-rakṣya. There must be protection to the cow. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the cows pass urine and stool, that is beneficial. And if it gives milk, then there is no question.

 

Everything practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society.

This is the greatest harmful civilization. They are keeping them in ignorance for that. Anyway, if people agree to take our guidance, we can change the face of the world. That is a fact. Whole world will be peaceful immediately.

 

"The devotee of Lord Caitanya, every one has so immense power that every one, they can deliver the whole universe." Gaurāìgera bhakta-jane, jane jane śakti..., brahmāṇòa tari... That is Gaurāìga's men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only you are that powerful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're like...

Prabhupāda: Why you are not? You are my disciples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're like the bugs.

Prabhupāda: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurāìgera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Āmāra ājïāya. Don't manufacture ideas. Āmāra ājïāya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ājïā?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. Bas. You become guru.

 

Result is nothing. Therefore we say it is dogs' race, imagination that "We are becoming happy." He's becoming implicated in karma, cheating karma, and losing the opportunity of human life.

 

Everything is based on tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ.

 

So we have to prove this is animal civilization.

 

Initiation means seriously take up the...And if you make it a fun business, then I become implicated, you become implicated.

 

Yes. Otherwise why ten commandments? And these rascals took it that "I shall not follow any of you. You take our sinful reaction. It is very good religion."…This is going on. Therefore according to history, he retired. That is resurrection. He went to Kashmir. "It is hopeless."…It is not possible to kill him. Such a great personality, representative of God, he is not killed. That is not possible…He made a show that "I am killed." That is resurrection. And when you finished your business, then he will go (indistinct)…We admit. Guru Mahārāja said śaktyāveśa-avatāra, powerful incarnation. Therefore whenever there was question of Jesus, I never disrespected Jesus. Never criticized him, because I know that he is powerful representative of God. We took it from Guru Mahārāja.

 

Whatever little success is in our movement, the cause is I have not tried to cheat. Honestly, what I knew, I heard it from Guru Mahārāja and scripture, I took it. There was no cheating.

 

If there is a lizard, if there is a snake, then see that he is not starving. You must give him food.

 

No. You don't require to read book. We simply say that "You come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." This is treatment. These boys, foreigners, they have come to me not by reading my book. First of all I invited him, "Sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." And then gradually. This is the general treatment.

 

Kṛṣṇa advises to live village life, agriculture, and utilize time for understanding your spiritual life. That is... So we are trying to introduce this, this farm life.

 

I think I shall take little, little milk…That will give strength. Milk produce strength. And it is suitable for everyone: children, diseased, invalid, old men. It is such a nice food. Everyone in any condition can get some benefit.

 

No, you become guru, but you must be qualified first of all. Then you become…What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

 

You become all ācārya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete…But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not rubber stamp.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective.

 

 

 

 

And you want cloth. That is primary necessities. So if you become independent about these things, your eighty percent economic problem is solved. So this is a wrong type of civilization only. That Gandhi's program was very nice. We want to revive.

 

The present problem is that they are being attracted with this artha-rasa. There are four kinds of rasa, catur-rasa: dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. So somebody is tasting dharmārtha, ritualistic ceremonies. Somebody is economic development in the cities, artha. Somebody is attracted, sense enjoyment, sex. And somebody, very pure, mokṣa-rasa. Catur-rasa. So in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness all the four rasas are there. Simply we have to present. So that is possible by the bhakti-rasa. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanam... So we have to begin. The villagers must come, sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, and give them prasādam. If you can bring them, so far money is concerned for giving prasādam, that we shall arrange. Then, gradually, let them be engaged in spinning all their necessities of life, in plowing, in protection of the cows. They get some... We have done it already in foreign countries--enough milk, enough vegetables, enough food grains. They're so happy. They're so happy. This nonsense civilization, attracting to earn money and construct anthill... These skyscraper buildings are as good as the anthill. It has no meaning. But they are constructing. So the change of attraction. Raso vai saḥ. All the rasas, they should be trained up to take it from Kṛṣṇa.

 

You must take as it is. Then it will be... You cannot change the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya...Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Only the cows which are delivering milk, they should not be sent to slaughter." Go-rakṣya. Even they are not delivering milk...

 

That is cooperation. Don't try to amend the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā…But... So your duty is to cooperate…Similarly, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is cooperation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, now you learn this art.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY TWO

Room Conversation                                       March 22, 1977, Bombay                                                          488924

Prabhupāda: Echo mano jano mandanam arpane.(?) Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā. You can very easily do it. And neglect it simply by dog race, four-legged, four-wheel race. They have no knowledge. Anthill. I have given the name. Anthill? Yes. These big, big buildings, anthill. And these four-wheel cars, dog-race. What is the difference between the anthill and the skyscraper building?

Guest (1) (Indian man): More modern only.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. They are also living in the holes, and we have made some holes.

Bhavānanda: Even in Africa, we saw some anthills that were as big as skyscrapers.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Bhavānanda: Big, big.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty foot.

Bhavānanda: Twenty-foot anthills.

Prabhupāda: If more men come, then I shall describe all this anthill civilization. "Health." Nonsense, what "health"? He'll be kicked out immediately.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Even healthy development.

Prabhupāda: No, who is healthy if he's going to die? "I am so healthy that I am going to die tomorrow." This is their health.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Illusion. They don't know. Every one of those questions was about the body.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. That is healthy, when you do not die even the body is destroyed. That is healthy life. What is this healthy life? The body is finished and everything, everything is... Actually everything is finished. And to keep people in that ignorance--"The body is finished; everything is finished." That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa very clearly said, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. They do not question even how it is possible. That is the most important question. Some lady asked me, "What is the important...?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What is the most important thing in life?"

Prabhupāda: This is the most important question.

                                                                                                                                                                        488947

Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog--according to my karma, the nature's law will act--then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was so important. Next day I'll maybe(?) nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman. And after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very... That is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light. What is the use of millions of stars?" Modern education, they are creating twinkling stars, millions. All useless for light. No light. And our Vedic civilization is: "Create one moon. That's all." That is sufficient. We respect, therefore, ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, not the so-called voted leaders. We don't care for them. What is their value? Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. You say, "Oh, they are being liked, eulogized, by so many hundreds and thousands," but what these hundreds and thousands of people are? Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-khara. They're kept in ignorance like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. This propaganda should go on by the ISKCON movement. Bombay is the nicest place. Invite them. Convince them. We have got answers for everyone, however big scientist, big philosopher, big politician. Bhāgavata has answered everyone. How selected animals' name has been given. This is Bhāgavata. How the comparison is perfect. I have tried to explain why a particular animal has been selected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That purport is very clear.

Prabhupāda: So the sum and substance is that I have got the opportunity of human form, everyone, and they should not be kept in the same animal consciousness. This is civilization. They should be raised to the standard of inquiring. Athāto brahma-jijïāsā. That is civilization. This, civilization? To keep them in darkness? Hm? Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The first question is ke āmi kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. "Sir, I was prime minister, and I was very much eulogized by the people as paṇòita." Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇòita tāi satya māni. "These village people, they call me paṇòita, and I also, such a fool, I accept, 'Yes, I am paṇòita. Yes.' But factually, if I inquire, 'What kind of paṇòita'? then āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni: 'I am such a learned paṇòita that I do not know what is the ultimate goal of my life. I am such a paṇòita.' Therefore I have come to You, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You say what is my ultimate goal of life." This is approaching guru, not that "I am paṇòita, I am brāhmaṇa, or minister. Why shall I go to learn? I can teach everyone whatever nonsense I know. Let them..." What is that injunction? That emasculation? That Sanjay Gandhi became?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, he's a boy, and he thought by sterilization the country will be delivered. Just see. By force. He thought... He became learned leader in one day, and he thought, "This will be sacrifice now." This is going on. "Because I am Indira Gandhi's son, I am perfect." Nature's law--"Yes, you are perfect. It is all right. But I kick out in a moment--finished."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect rascal.

Prabhupāda: Perfect. They do not know. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. So at least in India these things should be stopped. That is my ambition. India cannot go in that way. We have got so much stock of knowledge. Bhārata-bhūmite haila. That I want. Others rascals may be misled, but in India at least there must be an ideal class. That I want. Why India's name should be defamed? That... They are following in the same blind man's way. Therefore I repeatedly said that "I invite you all. Come. Join. Understand." What is this nonsense? "Health. What will be health?" But where is your health, nonsense? You are going to die next moment. And "WHO"? What is that "WHO"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Rajneesh.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no, that...

Guest (2): Question last night.

Prabhupāda: United Nation, WHO.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. World Health Organization.

Prabhupāda: World Health Organization. Rascal, who is healthy? Everyone is going to die. "World Health Organization." They are manufacturing. They do not think that "Where is health?" Such foolish things are going on all over the world. So organize something reality and spread, slow but sure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't be impatient to compromise just to...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming impatient. You have got diamond. No buyer of diamond--that does not mean you have to throw it away.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And sell something less.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Diamond is diamond. It must be purchased by the suitable customer. Because there is no customer I shall throw it away? So we have got diamond. It is not possible that everyone will purchase it, but there must be diamonds. People must know that "Here is diamond. If I want it, I must pay the proper price." That I want to establish. Why India's culture should be lost in this way, in the wilderness?I am not cheap patriot like Gandhi and... I want to give Indian culture to the whole world. I'm not going to cheat people, taking Bhagavad-gītā and speaking all nonsense. I want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is my mission. Why shall I cheat you, a gentleman? (Hindi)

Guest (1): We'll try to follow your message properly.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma. There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming--"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side--all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are... Keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food. No, the dog goes...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagging it's tail.

Prabhupāda: "Give me some food." "Hut hut hut!" Then another animal.(?) And as soon as you give some food, oh, so many--"ka,ka,ka,ka,ka,ka,ka." For five hundred posts, 300,000 applications. Did you see that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Coming in Churchgate.

Prabhupāda: No, there was a newspaper publication. For some post there is five hundred posts vacant.

Guest (1): Oh, yes. For application for a job, five jobs and five thousand people applied.

Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Is that education? Better not to be educated. Those who are not educated, they purchase ten rupees' worth of potato and sit down anywhere and half... (laughter) Five rupees. Yes.

Guest (1): All vegetable are...

Prabhupāda: You take some dāl. Go to house to house, dāl. They have no scarcity. And after spending so much money, living at the cost of fathers, mothers--unemployed. No job. No food. Then plan something, Naxalite, this party, that party. Join some political movement and help Indira Gandhi. They are paid to make propaganda. They are paid. And they earn money by smuggling.

Guest (1): But that all has vanished now. That plan has failed now completely.

Prabhupāda: Not failed. Another man will come. Because the unemployment is there. Practically, when we were boys, children, we were purchasing mustard oil, eight annas for two-half, two-half only, kilo, first-class. In Calcutta, Kanpur mustard oil. So my father would give me eight annas. I shall go to the shop and purchase. Now that quality, even taking it..., he's now selling thirteen rupees per kilo. Will the change of government bring this thirteen rupees to three annas? Then what is the benefit? The same stool, this side or that side. People are not going to get any relief by this change of government. So we are not concerned about thirteen rupees or three annas or... Some way or other, people are getting their things. That's all right. But the real loss is to remain in animal mentality and forget the aim of life. That is the real loss. Kṛṣṇa says plainly,

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

"This Bhagavad-gītā what I am speaking, if one is not interested to hear it or to take it, then result will be he'll not get Me." "So what is loss if I don't get You?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Then go again to the cycle of birth and death." That's it. That is nature's law. If my next life I become a worm, then it will take millions of years to evolve, again come to the human standard. How I am lost. That they do not know. It is clearly said. Mām aprāpya: "By not getting Me." "So what is loss if I don't get Kṛṣṇa?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. That you cannot check. You have to die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to accept another body. Then you go on. Why this human form of life should be lost in this way? So at least to try to give this knowledge to the people in general is para-upakāra. This is para-upakāra. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. India can especially do it.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

(Hindi) (break) ...these and some great man, not that they think bad. And if somebody checks me, how great enemy he is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The natural tendency of the people here is to be God conscious, but the government is artificially checking. Whether this new government will be any different?

Prabhupāda: No. The same fools, rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to be very strong in our center here in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: We are for everyone. We are not for any nation, any particular person.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our preaching has to be so strong, it will counteract the government's preaching, the movies and all these other Kali-yuga things.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All influences.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wanted to know how... Last night were you having any difficulty? Feeling any difficulty?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Passing... (break)

Prabhupāda: Not this section, this nation, this religion, no, not like that. They are going to die, and they're organizing "health." Just see their intelligence. Butchers' health organization. Butcher is going to kill the animal tomorrow, and today he's seeing that health is..., healthy is animal. "Animal is...?" This is... So there is a health organization, WHO? World Health Organization?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. WHO. Geneva.l

Prabhupāda: A butchers' health organization. Take these ideas all, there, everything is there, already mentioned. Cultivate. Try to give Kṛṣṇa in every... Let everyone come, stay with us, learn this art, preach all over the world. And Bombay is a city where you'll get all kind of help. Besides that, we shall get help from all over the world. But do it very cautiously, thoroughly. You don't take it as insignificant thing. Very important thing. I am talking of this Māyāpura. So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya. Why He's stressing bhārata-bhūmi? Yes. It's a fact. Real knowledge is here, Bhagavad-gītā. Speaking Kṛṣṇa Himself. Why such knowledge should be denied? Is that all right?

Païcadraviòa: To lose this knowledge? No, it's not all right.

Prabhupāda: People are in darkness. To keep them like dogs, hogs, camels, and take vote from them and become a leader... Nobody protested that we call all the men dogs, hogs, camels. Nobody came forward, that "You are using very strong words." It's a fact.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They agree.

Hṛdayānanda: They were applauding your lecture last night.

Prabhupāda: Our Tamāla Kṛṣṇa appreciated very much.

Hṛdayānanda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I loved that lecture.

Hṛdayānanda: It was wonderful last night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told Prabhupāda the lecture was like atom bomb.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He told like that.

Hṛdayānanda: Said the atheistic leaders are like animals, stronger animals.

Prabhupāda: Yes, big animal.

Hṛdayānanda: They especially liked your idea of American money and Indian culture… they applauded for that.

Prabhupāda: That is my mission. I am doing that. I am bringing money from America. Nobody's paying me. It is not joke, ten lakhs of rupees. Who brings?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even big export companies don't bring so much.

Prabhupāda: And they'll be glad. They have got money and they are getting culture. I am trying for United Nations. That is real attempt of United Nation, not this United Nation; all rogues and thieves and cheaters, barking dogs. I am trying for the United Nations. Help me. This is real United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. It is United Nation. So I began this movement very humbly, loitering on the street of New York. Now it has come to this stage. Let us cooperate together nicely.

 

Room Conversation                                      March 24, 1977, Bombay                                                           489114

Prabhupāda: In the history of India there is no woman leader. Throughout Mahābhārata you'll find... Mahābhārata is the greater history, history of greater India. Mahā means greater, and bhārata. So "Greater Bhārata." That means this whole planet. So you won't find woman leader

                                                                                                                                                                        489135

Prabhupāda: Make them all Kṛṣṇa conscious by distributing my books, literature. And both of you are capable. Youthful energy, sincere devotee, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Para-upakāra. Not to keep the poor human society in ignorance. Others may cheat for livelihood, but we are not going to do that. We have no problem for livelihood. Yato yato yāmi tato nṛsiṁhaḥ. What is that verse?

Hṛdayānanda: Ito nṛsiṁhaḥ parato nṛsiṁho yato yato yāmi...

Prabhupāda: Tato nṛsiṁhaḥ. Everywhere is Nṛsiṁha there. Wherever I go, there is Nṛsiṁha, so where is my problem? We have no problem.

                                                                                                                                                                        489150

Prabhupāda: (break) ...kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Then everything will be... (break) ...brother's country, and there was a subway from Ceylon to Brazil. Still there is. Did you...? Do you know that?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, they have found gigantic tunnels in South America.

Prabhupāda: Rāmacandra was taken from here to there to be sacrificed before goddess Kālī.

Païcadraviòa: We've got about seventeen temples down there. In Central America.

Hṛdayānanda: There are more temples in Latin American than Europe. We also defeated them in book distribution.

Prabhupāda: The Mexicans are exactly like Indian.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                 Bombay, March 26, 1977                                                           489239

Prabhupāda: So if you combine together and go to any scientist, you challenge and prove scientifically. And still he sees it mistake. You do not know what is life's position, but we shall. Life is different. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Without life, this matter has no value. This room is well decorated, well furnished. Why? Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Because the life is there. If there was no life, then who cares for Bombay? Heaps of stone, that's all. Who cares for it? So you do not know that particular item and try to convince them according to the modern scientific... Then we shall be triumphant. Everything. Everything. Challenge these rascals, that "You have got power and you will get more power by serving Kṛṣṇa." Your presentation was very nice.

                                                                                                                                                                        489250

Prabhupāda: Recruit them. And speak in such societies. We have now our prestige and preaching. It will be very nice honor everywhere. So Kṛṣṇa has given you some talent. Utilize it. These rascals are misleading. Although the instruction is there, they are misinterpreting in their own way, misleading themselves and misleading others. They say the name of God. They do not know what is God, although God is explaining Himself. Such a rascal. God is explaining, "Here, I'm God." He is accepted, and they do not... When you ask them what is God: "That we do not know. Our God is (indistinct)." Such things are there. So they have to be convinced that these half-educated leaders cannot make you happy. It is not possible. They do not know the basic principle of life. Take guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is our movement. You'll be happy. And don't be carried away by the whims. This is an important chance, human life. These motorcars are running, they are running just like the flies come, phut phut phut phut. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Eleventh Chapter. Blind. Expedite death, that's all. There is no solution. The solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So recruit first of all. Just like these doctor friends. First of all get some friends.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bāla-kṛṣṇa told me that we have doctor, medical doctor, M.B.V. He's from Russia. He is going to join us.

Girirāja: Yeah, Dr. Sharma. He lives on Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. He's an Indian who took his degree in Alaska and he has two sister-in-laws also who took their doctor's degree in Moscow, and they have great faith in Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Make them come, make them come. Treat them nicely. Give them good place. In this way increase the number of workers. Then people will, "Oh... They are not religious sentiments. They have got books, they have got scientists, they have got doctors." Is it not? And we can challenge them. "Come on, what is our education, let us test. We are prepared to talk with you like scientists." So you are all here now and... Organize in Bombay. Bombay, the center of Bhaktivedanta Institute.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few students came day before yesterday from Bombay University.

Prabhupāda: Let them come.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They wanted to study in Bhaktivedanta Institute.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Give them good place. We don't want tenants or... Turn the whole building into Bhaktivedanta Institute. And another building start. Yes. We have got enough place. I want that the intelligent man should come and learn this science. That is wanted.

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas

tat tad evetaro janaḥ

sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute

lokas tad anuvartate

These people. Bring important men, important student. Take this opportunity. Give them nice place so that they may not be uncomfortable. Give them good food.

Girirāja: Yes. We have a lot of facility.

Prabhupāda: Then there should not be any scarcity for their comfort. People are trained up to the modern comforts. Therefore I am building so big, big insti... Otherwise, I... That's a fact. Rādhā-Dāmodara temple is sufficient for me. It is not for me I want these big, big buildings. I am accustomed to live anywhere. But those who are educated, scientists, they are accustomed, Europeans, Americans... They must be given proper place. That was my Guru Mahārāja's policy. Not that all of a sudden they should now live on the floor. No, that's not possible. Then they will be disturbed. Give them nice place, give them nice food, nice instruction. You are all intelligent boys. Do it immediately. Another building construct. That colony should be for first-class Kṛṣṇa conscious people, to preach. So Gargamuni, you also help.

Gargamuni: Yes. We stopped in a college, Acyutānanda and myself, a D.A.B. college, and we spoke to some of these professors of physics, and we showed him the books and especially that Scientific Basis...

Prabhupāda: On the whole I very much appreciated your presentation. I thank you very much.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Girirāja: They like that book, Scientific Basis.

Prabhupāda: The real scientific method is that the life which is in contact with this matter, he's suffering. And the real, I mean to say, enjoyment or peaceful life is to get him out of this condition of material contact. That is the best benefit. But these rascals, they are trying to adjust material things to give him happiness. "You are walking, all right, you take this car." That is not happiness. He does not know that in the car there are so many problems--more danger than walking. This is the mistake going on. Car is good, but that is not the solution. Solution is different. That we must... Na te viduḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. Let us go back to home, back to Godhead. (pause)

                                                                                                                                                                        489299

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From the newspaper I see that the United States is praising a lot this election.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The democratic campaign. But from our point of view, these are not the solution. Temporary. Temporary relief. Daṇòya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) You know this? Daṇòya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya. I have spoken several times in... Formerly, the criminal was taken in the middle of the river and he was drowned. And when he was suffocating, he's held up. Then he, ahhh (takes deep breath). This relief is like that. That means as soon as he takes little strength, again, put again. Then daṇòya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) These rascals are like that. For the time being there is little relief: "Oh, we are now free from the leaders." And there is another hand is being created. Bābājī or something like that. Then again they shall put his... This is going on.

                                                                                                                                                                        489315

Prabhupāda: Now you have got science background, book background, knowledge background--everything is there strong. Make this movement... Art also. Art, literature, science, philosophy, religion, culture, character--everything, strong background. Let everyone come. You have to try to fashion this. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati. If you have got Nārāyaṇa background, then what is the cause of being afraid?

nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve

na kutaścana bibhyati

svargāpavarga-narakeṣv

api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ

Prahlāda Mahārāja, so much obstacles by his father at home. Still, he is speaking to his father:

tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehināṁ

sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt

hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ

vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta

The father was astonished that "After so much chastising, still the boy is speaking the same way. He has not changed?" Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. "Incorrigible. Kill him." "All right, kill me. I don't care." They have got so exalted character like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja, all great personalities. Apart from big, big devatās... Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ. We have got small boys also as good as Brahmā, more than Brahmā. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ prahlādaḥ kapilo manu, prahlāda. Immediately comes Prahlāda also. Amongst svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ... janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakiḥ. Read Bhāgavatam, amalaṁ purāṇam. Read yourself, let them read. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no question of cheating or getting some some material profit out of this movement. We have no such thing. Material profit will automatically... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "You are thinking of material things so. We should come and fall down at your feet, 'Why you are worrying? You go and speak the real truth.' " (Bengali:) " 'Go and speak the truth.' " No compromise. So I never had scarcity of money. He is from the very beginning.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                 Bombay, March 26, 1977                                                           489337

Prabhupāda: I think also. He is a very kind doctor. Whole family is attentive. Living is... That we have already discussed. Trees also live for many years. That is not wanted. To live for living forever, that is wanted. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. That should be the human endeavor, not this dog race, changing condition, from four legs to four wheels. This logic was never taught, from four legs to four wheels. They are astonished.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        489348

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like you are giving more stress to science in recent years than previously.

Prabhupāda: That is required for convincing the modernized man. To ordinary man, the logic, "There is no God, I cannot see," that we have defied.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. That you defied years ago, from the beginning.

Prabhupāda: There is child, there is mother--there must be father. There is no logic. This is logic. Because without father there cannot be the child. Three things required--mother, father and child. Child means must be father and mother. Mother is there, the child is born, where is the father? We know who is father, what is His name, what is His activities. That is our advancement. And "We do not know," that means you are not a respectable, wise chap. You do not know your father's name. Any respectable man in the court or anywhere, the father's name immediately... "Your name?" "Yes." "Your father's name?" Is it not? If he does not know his father's name, that means he is not a respectable. He has no respectable position. Anyone who does not know what is God, he is just like the same child who does not know his father's name. Father must be there. That you do not know. You do not know, that is your foolishness. So anyone who does not know who is his father, what is God, he is not a respectable man. It may be that you have not seen your father, but you cannot deny, that without father you were born. This is no logic. Is that logic?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Logical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know what the meaning of logic is.

Prabhupāda: Orphan. Orphan means, does it, he has no father? He does not know who is his father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Orphan means doesn't know.

Prabhupāda: We are not orphans. We are taken care of by our rich father, very wise father, very rich father, able father. We are not forlorn orphans. We have got respectability. And we offer our respect to father. We depend on father. We are safe. Everyone can become safe. The opportunity is offered. If you don't take, that is your misfortune. We are offering, "Every one of you can become safe, safely protected by the father, Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... Why don't you take advantage? That is your misfortune. If you want to remain unfortunate, don't (indistinct). These rascals, they want to remain. We have got knowledge for understanding whole philosophy. So try to convince this philosophy in Australia. And Kṛṣṇa will help you more and more. The more you try to convince others about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the more you become enlightened.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, I feel that... When I've done a little preaching, as soon as I speak I can feel that everything becomes clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is giving you an opportunity to become more advanced. Take to that.

Hari-śauri: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are intelligent. You have understood. Now try to transfer knowledge to the innocent persons. There must be father. That you are convinced?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny, "There is no God." That is not possible. The earth is the mother. They say "mother country," "mother earth." And everything is coming out from the earth. Beginning from the aquatic animals, grass, they are coming from material elements, either from water or from earth. That we can see. And they are coming from fire also, but we cannot see. But they are. It is common sense. If life can come from water, fire... Fire is also one of the elements, five elements. So from fire also... Therefore it is said, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Because it is coming from fire, therefore fire cannot harm the living entity. So mother is there, children are there. Where is the father? This is the logic. And the father is coming personally, "Yes, I am father." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Then where is the chance for denying the existence of father? No. There is no chance, there is no logic. And the father is so rich, so powerful, so kind. And you are not taking shelter of your father. Your actual father, so great, so rich, so intelligent, so opulent. He promises, "My dear son, you surrender, I will give you all protection." He is giving protection. Still, He is assuring, and, still you will not take shelter? That is intelligent? That is envy. Everyone can take.This is our line. Accept the father, the bona fide father. Take protection from Him. He is able to give you everything. Why you are suffering? What is the logic?

Hari-śauri: They are just stubborn.

Prabhupāda: Stupidity. The father is there. Not only ordinary father, but the ablest, most powerful father. And we shall not take care? We shall not take care of the property of the father? It is my right to inherit the property of the father. That is natural. And I shall deny and loiter in the street? And the greatest benefit to the human society... Because the mad son is loitering in the street without any information of the father, to bring him back before the father. That is the best. He will be happy. This is our position.

Hari-śauri: It is the best welfare activity.

                                                                                                                                                                              489372

 

Prabhupāda: There is no doubt about it. Father wants, "These rascals may come back to Me," and if anyone helps the child of the father... Father wants him, and if he tries to bring his rascal son back, to get him to the father, father is pleased, he is pleased and our service is... Is it not? Greatest thing. So far other things, material adjustment, everything is there. Where is the scarcity? Work little, you get everything. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. There is anna, food. Because you are in the material world, you have to work little, very little. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Keep the earth moist. You produce anything.

Hari-śauri: (laughing) It's so simple.

Prabhupāda: So simple.

Hari-śauri: Put a little water and anything we want comes.

Prabhupāda: If you perform yajïa, the water will fall down. Even if you don't perform yajïa, the water is there within ground. Moisten. And if you perform yajïa, you haven't got to dig water.

Hari-śauri: They have unnecessarily complicated everything, and this has made it impossible to live.

Prabhupāda: Yajïād bhavati... Why you should go three hundred miles away from your home, hanging in the daily grinding, risking life? So much labor? It is not required.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More like an ass than a human being.

Prabhupāda: This is civilization? Swarms of men, church-haters. In the morning they are coming, just like swarms of ants. Is that right?

Hari-śauri: Then in the evening again rushing home.

Prabhupāda: Again going to the pigeonhole. And whole night sex, and then morning go. This is their home. And for this purpose, big, big arrangement of railway lines, this, that. Automobiles and buses and whoosh, whoosh. Unnecessary things. It is a life of great struggle.

Hari-śauri: A death sentence with hard labor.

Prabhupāda: Try to understand the philosophy more and more. Read Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. And to your best capacity try to learn. Then you will get power more and more.

Hari-śauri: Even if we have no facility, if we are sincere, everything comes.

Prabhupāda: Facility will be given. He has everything. Our father is not impotent. He is potent. The overpopulation theory, it is wrong. If the father has given birth to so many children, He knows how to provide them.

Hari-śauri: It is just an excuse to cover up their mismanagement.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Our philosophy is clear.

                                                                                                                                                                        489426

Prabhupāda: Nei. Develop farms.

Hari-śauri: There's an eight-hundred-acre farm we are getting in Australia. The devotees are very enthusiastic for it, because in the past we haven't been able to make so many new devotees. They are not very much attracted to living in the cities in Australia. But they think that the farm... Then that will expand a lot. Probably this region we can grow everything, fruits, all kinds of tropical fruits, and cows.

Prabhupāda: Fruit, grains and milk. Vegetables. Finished everything.(?)

 

Room Conversation(3)                                March 31, 1977, Bombay                                                            489837

Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?

Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.

Prabhupāda: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me... Perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?

Mādhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.

Prabhupāda: Evolution..., apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch, after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.

Mādhava: They would say there are eggs in the stream and...

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the eggs came?

Mādhava: From another fish.

Prabhupāda: Where is another fish? There was no fish when you dug this well. These rascals are great rascals, and they are going on in the name of scientists. Another, another, where is that another? Another means that is God. These rascals, they do not know that. They simply "another." Who is that another? That is God. Simple logic. The child is there, the mother is there, there must be father. This is logic. Otherwise how the living entity came into existence? Talk on this point. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Śāstra says in the beginning, jalajā, living entities born in the water. And they are not one kind. Not that one kind of fish is coming. Nava-lakṣāṇi. Nine hundred thousand different types of life, varieties, varieties of life. So how these rascals say that all of a sudden came another? What is that another? Answer it. What is that another? "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." (laughter) What is that another? That "another" is God. It is simple for us. We understand. Why? Because you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. "I am, here I am. I am the seed-giving father." Finished. We take it. So we are in full knowledge. What is the difficulty for us? There is father. You can say another or this or that, whatever way you can say. There is father. You do not know? Here, the father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "Yes, I am." We believe in Kṛṣṇa, our knowledge is perfect. You rascal, you do not believe, do not know. Then you hover in the darkness forever and remain a rascal and declare yourself a scientist. Rascal, declaring as scientist.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, scientific knowledge can be appreciated more when one accepts that Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be propagated now. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijïāte sarvam idaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. If you know simply Kṛṣṇa, then everything. Why I am challenging, from the very beginning, all these rascal scientists? Because I believe in Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Otherwise I am not a scientist. I cannot challenge the scientists. But yes, I can challenge. Because I know my knowledge is perfect.

                                                                                                                                                                        489858

Prabhupāda: So this should be stopped. These rascals, these fools, they are passing on as scientists and misleading others. That business should be stopped. Then they cannot answer wherefrom the fish came. What is the answer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You ask him to answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Sharma: I think that science should be limited to people who have got Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Would you agree to that? You see in the beginning, when you select people for science, should you make it a prerequisite for admission that they should be Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Maybe they will become better scientists, maybe they will not, you know, make atom bombs and destructive things if they were Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: I say to the scientists (indistinct) who as they say, life comes from chemicals. And I say that take some small egg. You can see, there are some substances like yellow substance and white substance. Analyze the chemicals and combine them and put in the incubator. You get one chicken. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, they say that life comes from chemicals. What is the answer?

Devotee: They say it is too complicated.

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know, and you are passing your remark that life comes from chemicals. Such a rascal you are. You do not know what is the thing, and still, you are declaring your knowledge. You are misleading people. And you are captured, you say, "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it by trying." What is this nonsense? All post-dated check. So these rascals should be stopped. Speaking all lies, propaganda. Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you? But in the name of science and becoming a scientist, you are misleading others. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. You are blind rascal, and you are leading other blind men. Why you are doing these harmful activities? You are admitting that you are blindly believing. So you are blind. You remain blind if you don't accept knowledge. Why you are trying to lead other blind men? Let them have knowledge. They have got the opportunity, this human form of life. This is the opportunity to get knowledge. And you are keeping them in darkness. Is that service to the human?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real scientists, they must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he cannot be a scientist.

Prabhupāda: No. The real thing he does not know. We know. We know on the basis of śāstra, authorities, ācāryas, so many. And what is your support? Your support is yourself. Then everyone will do that. His support is himself. Everyone will become authority. "I think, I believe." What is this nonsense, your belief? These things should be stopped now. (Hindi) Misleading, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These conditioned souls, very stringently bound up hands and legs by the laws of nature, they are trying to lead the human society. This rascaldom must be stopped. You do not know. Say you do not know. That's all. Why you mislead others? Giving them false knowledge. If you do not know even the distinction between the living entity and the material elements... You are trying to prove the living entity is also combination of these material elements, chemicals. Such a rascal you are. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedam. It is very important thing. You do not know anything about it. Kṛṣṇa again says, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative definition. Still, you are so rascal, you do not understand, and you are misleading innocent persons. So combine together as many as possible and go and challenge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma can help us a lot in Bombay. Because I find that medical institutions, you know, hospitals, is a very good place to speak to the doctors. Because this life, this concept of life, and these bio-medical ethics is very appropriate. So...

Dr. Sharma: Yes, actually, this concept is very timely for our country, Prabhupāda. My feeling is that our country has a special place in the Lord's heart, because He came here several times. And the very fact that after independence, nobody could prevent it again, and you have come, all these things, to stop it now. And I think the thing should start from...

Prabhupāda: At least, I am the first man to try for it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Dr. Sharma: And these people, they are very learned in their chosen fields, and they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and they are really keen to do it with enthusiasm, to turn the tide back.

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their lives. They are scientists, they could earn lots of money, but they do not care for it. They have dedicated their lives. In America they could earn lots of money, such a qualified person. But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. The truth. That is brāhmaṇa.

Dr. Sharma: And they are living like brāhmaṇas in, you know, so... Bhagavān also has taken out time to protect the brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa...

Dr. Sharma: Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya...

Prabhupāda: His first business is to give protection to the brāhmaṇas and the cows. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Jagad-dhitāya. Next, welfare of the others. First, Kṛṣṇa says specifically, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. He gives specific instruction: go-rakṣya, protect cows. (Hindi) Somebody was speaking to me that some great astrologer long ago predicted the Russia will be first-class theist in future. Who was speaking that?

Devotee (1): What?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That the Russia would be first-class theist.

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The atheists, when they are convinced, they become first-class theist. One of my teachers used to say that anyone who is not easily convinced, he does not forget easily also. And one who easily understands, he easily forgets. So the Russians, they are strong. You cannot convince them by bogus dogmatic theories.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's very true. Scientists, once they are convinced, it is also very difficult to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not easily convinced, then easily he does not forget.

Dr. Sharma: I've always said, teach the Russians that we have our own brand of communism or socialism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have already explained.

Dr. Sharma: Yāvad... (Sanskrit) The amount of material you need to fill your belly, that is your own. You can call only that much you own. If you think you own something more, you are a thief and you should be punished. That's what Bhāgavata says. This is the highest kind of socialism one can...

Prabhupāda: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you... And even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something... They will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten mounds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the śāstra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-prītaya, only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Åṣabhadeva says, "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhāgavata. "No, no." Na sādhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ. You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. (Hindi) Four-wheel dogs. That is advancement of civilization. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels. Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag. Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement. Competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The ant hill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders. (Hindi)

                                                                                                                                                                        489892

Prabhupāda: And what materialistic advancement they have done?

Dr. Sharma: No thing.

Prabhupāda: Now in our childhood, when we were ten-years-old boy, my father used to purchase high kilo saraṣera tela, for eight annas. Can these rascals do to that standard? Eight annas, first-class Kanpur mustard oil. Now that oil... Not that quality oil, still, they are being sold thirteen rupees per kilo, instead of three annas.

Dr. Sharma: They were always, even in a small village, there were five or ten good people were to do the kīrtana. You know, they had a knack of one particular instrument, they could get up and all on the Janmāṣṭamī and so many festivals they used to have kīrtana. And all, you know, small village, even nook and corner of the country, bubbling with life, religious life. This is only twenty-five years ago, even thirty years ago it was there. And look now...

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is better late than never. (Hindi) We are sending our men from village to village. Not only here, also in the European countries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of our basic points is that we are not this body but we are actually soul. So I would wonder how Dr. Sharma, he is a specialist in, I think, cardiology...

Dr. Sharma: Cardiac surgery.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?

Prabhupāda: They do not know that the soul is there. Because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.

Dr. Sharma: Some of the ancient Indian medical texts, they do describe that heart is the seed of consciousness. (Hindi) The Suśruta Saṁhitā says that the heart is considered the consciousness. But the modern medical texts, they are actually...

Prabhupāda: Modern means rascals.

Dr. Sharma: Yes. Actually, they are only two hundred years old.

Prabhupāda: Say, rather, modern rascals. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati.

Dr. Sharma: Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. And the (Sanskrit) says that the heart is the most important organ because it is concerned with ātmā and...

Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Premāïjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ.

Dr. Sharma: Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about these..., the artificial hearts that they are making?

Prabhupāda: Artificial heart and this real heart the same thing--it is material. Where is the difference? There is no difference.

Dr. Sharma: Just like they are trying to produce babies in the test-tube. They are never going to be successful. But they can keep on trying. I recently went to Houston, and there I have read that they cannot keep somebody alive even more than five, six hours. So far away from such a thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about this heart transplant?

Dr. Sharma: Well, the heart transplants actually have been given up everywhere except one place, that's in Stanford Medical Center. And they are doing it because they are the one who initially started it, so they are emotionally stable about it. But actually I have gone and seen there, and they do it... The people are, you know, the recipient patient is very unhappy after the heart transplant. He's very restless, and he has nightmares and he is extremely unhappy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Has Dr. Barnard of South Africa stopped it now?

Dr. Sharma: Well, he has stopped after doing nine, but Stanford people, they have done about almost over a hundred, and they can keep somebody alive another six months or a year or at the most two years. But the man, the man's existence is very miserable. He has to take so many drugs, and he is bloated like a balloon, and he cannot even do the simple duties like taking walks or going to bathroom. He has to be very careful. If he just slips, it will develop the fracture of his ventricle, and that's all. It is very, very unnatural, and I don't think they can solve this problem at all. It is just man's struggle (for) life.(?) And I know they are saying they will do only in people with proper insurance because the hospital bill is $70,000 for a heart transplant.

Prabhupāda: All rascals, they...

Dr. Sharma: This is a perfect example of what Prabhupāda is saying, because this is not justified on any account--moral, ethical, medical...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or financial.

Dr. Sharma: Or financial. They only waste their time, and this is, you know, an example of how stubborn man can be, especially the scientists. The real transplant that was done was done by the Lord Śiva when he did transplant of the head of Lord Gaṇeśa. That was the only successful transplant I know of.

 

Interview with Current Weekly            April 5, 1977, Bombay                   490512                                                                                                                                                                        Prabhupāda: Real Bhagavad-gītā should be studied. People should make life Bhagavad-gītā and preach all over the world. This is our movement.

Mr. Koshi: Can I change the subject now?

Prabhupāda: Subject?

Mr. Koshi: I mean to something different, about the... You all have list, some conditions in this...

Prabhupāda: No condition. Study Bhagavad-gītā. Make your life...

Mr. Koshi: No, for example, the saffron robe, the beads...

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Koshi: And the shaving of the head with the little...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama. This is āśrama. He is sannyāsī, he must take to it.

Mr. Koshi: And the avoidance of...

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So just like if you take, become a police officer, you must take the dress.

Mr. Koshi: Uniform. No, but say the avoidance of tea and coffee and all that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Koshi: Is something wrong with tea?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is sinful, pāna.

Mr. Koshi: By itself it is not bad.

Prabhupāda: Itself is bad, sinful.

Mr. Koshi: It's a neutral thing.

Prabhupāda: You say, but śāstra says striya, sūnā, pāna, dyūta, four kinds of sinful activities. Illicit sex; pāna, intoxication. Pāna, pāna, so it is intoxication. Therefore it is sinful.

Mr. Koshi: And what is the fourth?

Prabhupāda: Striya, sūnā and jīva-hiṁsā, unnecessarily killing animals.

Mr. Koshi: And therefore vegetarianism. Is that why vegetarianism is...?

Prabhupāda: First of all, you try to understand the principles. These are the four principles of sinful life. So you should avoid. Unless... Yeṣām anta gataṁ pāpam. That is the... Unless you are free from sinful activities, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣām anta gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā.

Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of that?

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is completely free from sinful activities, he can understand Kṛṣṇa. If you are engaged in sinful activities, how you will understand Kṛṣṇa? Therefore these things are forbidden. "Don't do this. Understand Kṛṣṇa."

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

Mr. Koshi: I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: You don't understand, therefore I say you become a student. Understand it. That is our institution. If you don't want to understand, that is another thing.

Mr. Koshi: No. I try to understand, but I drink coffee and tea. I cannot...

Prabhupāda: Because you have not been taught by proper teacher.

Mr. Koshi: That I accept.

Prabhupāda: That is not your fault. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. This is Vedic injunction. So therefore our brahmacārī system. First of all one becomes brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam. These things are there. Everything is there and we don't take advantage of this knowledge. We are after becoming dogs, that's all.

                                                                                                                                                                        490585

Mr. Koshi: Do you take interest in the political happenings?

Prabhupāda: That will go on.

Mr. Koshi: No, but do you take interest?

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another. That is the history, whole history of the world. There is nothing new. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, chewing the chewed. Politics means chewing the chewed, that's all.

Mr. Koshi: Chewing the?

Prabhupāda: Chewing something, just like sugar candy. You have chewed it, taken all the juice, you have thrown it away. Another man is chewing it. It is like that. Indira Gandhi also promised so many things, and she is now out, and somebody is speaking something.

Mr. Koshi: Morarji now.

Prabhupāda: Anyone. And in some day he will not be there, somebody will come. That is the history of the whole world. But that will not benefit the human society, politics. It is useless. This knowledge will help make the solution. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe. We are suffering in this material condition, and He is delivering from this. That is real upakāra. That's the repetition of history, politics.

Mr. Koshi: But it has been going on for quite some time.

Prabhupāda: It is going on, but time immemorial. That is not the solution.

Mr. Koshi: They have seen to have more control over people than others. When a person is empowered, his actions can affect so many people.

Prabhupāda: So what kind of people?

Mr. Koshi: Cats and dogs.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Śva-viò-varāha. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as dogs, camels, asses and hogs. Śva-viò-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (break) The leader of hogs, dogs, camels and asses. Our civilization is brahminical, brāhmaṇa. That is wanted.

Mr. Koshi: Is that good or bad?

Prabhupāda: That is good. Unless you become brāhmaṇa, real brāhmaṇa, śama, dama, titikṣā, how you will understand? We are not for the hogs, dogs, cats. Therefore it is sometimes said that without becoming brāhmaṇa, nobody should try to understand Vedas. What he will understand? Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. This word is used because it is meant for the brāhmaṇas. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ... dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. Dhīmahi is gāyatrī-mantra. It is chanted by the brāhmaṇas. That word is used in Bhāgavatam also.

                                                                                                                                                                        490620

Mr. Koshi: One of the conditions is illicit sex.

Prabhupāda: That is sinful. Don't you see, illicit sex, what havoc it has done?

Mr. Koshi: What exactly do you mean?

Prabhupāda: Illicit sex, do you think it is...?

Mr. Koshi: Outside marriage, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only outside marriage. Even in marriage, you cannot have sex as you like. You must have sex according to the regulative principle or religious principle.

Mr. Koshi: Could you explain?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like only for begetting nice children.

Mr. Koshi: For begetting?

Prabhupāda: Nice children.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good children.

Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of good children?

Prabhupāda: Good children means not these rogues and thieves, but one who can understand God. That is good children.

Mr. Koshi: It is the parents' responsibility.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. These are stated. It is not secret matter. When the father goes to beget child, he has to perform ritualistic ceremonies in the presence of relative, brāhmaṇas. They will understand that "He is going now to beget a child." It is not a secret thing. It is garbhādhāna. And if in a brāhmaṇa family the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not observed, then immediately he becomes a śūdra.

Mr. Koshi: What is not a secret thing?

Prabhupāda: Secret... Just like when we go and have sex with wife secretly. It is not secret.

Mr. Koshi: There is a ceremony.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is ceremony.

Mr. Koshi: Don't you think that the children should be given freedom to choose voluntarily?

Prabhupāda: Do you want to give freedom to your children?

Mr. Koshi: I am asking you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the use of giving freedom to a child with a razor? He will cut his throat, that's all.

Mr. Koshi: But at a later age, perhaps when he is better...

Prabhupāda: Later age, yes. That is enjoined. When child is sixteen years old he can do as he likes, not before that.

lālayet païca varṣāṇi

daśa varṣāṇi tāòayet

prāpte tu ṣoòaśe varṣe

putraṁ mitravad ācaret

This is the moral instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇòita. Up to five years, don't chastise, don't take any action. Let him be free. Whatever he likes, he can do. Then after fifth year, for ten years you must be very strict. Then five years and ten years, fifteen. And when he is sixteen years, treat him like a friend. Prāpte tu ṣoòaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. At that time, no stricture that he will break. "My dear boy, if you do this..." This is necessary. And from fifth year to fifteenth year you should chastise the sons and disciples just like tiger. After five years.

Mr. Koshi: Using the stick.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how you trained us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Mr. Koshi: Did you get?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, by Prabhupāda. Even though we were not five years old, he treats us just like as if we were five. Because spiritually we are still like that. So he is very strict with us.

Prabhupāda: All these boys I chastise vehemently. Even a little mistake.

Mr. Koshi: You...?

Prabhupāda: They tolerate. They know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are afraid.

Mr. Koshi: What is your message to the world?

Prabhupāda: Again you ask me. (laughter) (Hindi)

Mr. Koshi: Yes, I know. but...

Prabhupāda: After reading Rāmāyaṇa you are asking whose father is Sītā. (laughter) I have explained already.

 

Morning Talk                                                  April 5, 1977, Bombay                                                            490965

Prabhupāda: ...community. If the one community said, "Within our religion, there is no need of education..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of education?

Prabhupāda: So will the state allow that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they shouldn't, because then it is not religion. Genuine...

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is religion or no religion. Suppose there is university, and if some religious sect says that "In our religion we shall not take university education."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shall not take any education from the university?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So will the government accept?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In United States there is a group in Pennsylvania, and they say that they will not undergo any kind of normal education, because it is polluted, and they have their own education, and they are permitted. Even from six, seven years old, from first grade. They are called the Amish people. (some noise in background) That's not a door, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's heavy dropping of heavy items.

Prabhupāda: Another point, in secular, the scientific knowledge, two plus two equal to four. If somebody says, "No, in our opinion it is five," will it be accepted?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't hear what you were saying.

Prabhupāda: If two plus two equal to four. If somebody says "In our opinion it should be five..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no one will accept that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if government requires teaching the science that this body is not yourself, you are different from the body, if some other sect, they say, "That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā; it is meant for the Hindus, not for us," will it be accepted?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should not be.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the institution for teaching Bhagavad-gītā must be there. The science of life...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be there in every university.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's scientific. It is the only scientific book.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Kaumāra, childhood, yauvanam, youthhood, and jarā, old age, does it mean only for the Hindus?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then how this science should be stopped for others? It is universal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as that Christian asked you, is Lord Jesus's teachings universal. The Christians, they say that Jesus's teachings are universal. So that means that they must be true.

Prabhupāda: And they accept yes, and we say.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill." This applies to all human beings. So if they say that about Jesus's teachings, why not about dehino 'smin yathā dehe? They should say.

Prabhupāda: The whole human society is being put into ignorance. How we can tolerate? We know the things. How we can hide it? Jïāna-khala. One who knows the thing, how he can hide it? He is called jïāna-khala. He has got the knowledge but he will not give it to anyone else.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is miserly.

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Jïāna-khala. Khala means envious, "I know it..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A Vaiṣṇava is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī.

Prabhupāda: How we can stop spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You told me that unless one is compassionate...

Prabhupāda: He cannot become Vaiṣṇava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He cannot preach.

Prabhupāda: Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, kṛpāmbudhi. My Guru Mahārāja used to say prāṇa āche yāìra se'retu(?) pracāra. One who is living being, he can preach. Dead body cannot. One who is actually a living being, he can preach. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra. One who is a man, he will be interested in this. Cats and dogs, it is not possible. Bhārata-bhūmite haila kukkura-janma yāra, eka... Manuṣya. To give knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, this is India's prerogative. And India can distribute this knowledge. And the government has to consent. And they are misinterpreting this. I wanted to fight them, but...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will be a very interesting meeting, to see if he is actually willing to take some action. He'll hear and he may agree, but whether he will act, that we will see.

Prabhupāda: He may not act. That will be (indistinct).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I am already doing is I am starting to compile a list of those that we want permanent residence for. I told Bhavānanda this morning already that he should tell me the names of those people in Bengal who he feels are qualified to remain permanently. So that way if suddenly we get some opportunity, I'll have the list all ready to submit. To me, of course, I am a little bit, tend towards pessimism, but I think that that is something we could actually hope for from this government. It won't be difficult...

Prabhupāda: Let me work with these foreigners, because you have taught Indian independence, and they are not coming. Therefore these foreign boys, they are helping me. So let them remain. What harm they are doing? Let them have permanent residence helping me. Their life, money, everything, why don't you allow me? Unnecessarily they have to go away and come again.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are throwing five lakhs of rupees that could be well utilized every year.

Prabhupāda: We are not... We have no interest in politics. What interest do we have in this phantasmagoria? We are not so fools. And there are so many people, they are taking part in politics. Is this sane?

                                                                                                                                                                        491023

Prabhupāda: There is no doubt. How we can stop educating people about Bhagavad-gītā? It is most heinous mentality, such knowledge should be hidden from the human society. And some rascal will misinterpret.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, your point yesterday was very nice that some things which are difficult, they may need explanations, but when Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me," what is the question of a need of interpretation? That Radhakrishnan, immediately he gives his explanation: "It doesn't mean to Kṛṣṇa the person."

Prabhupāda: Just see. How rascal he is, and he is commenting. No, no, this is the rule, grammatical rule, that when things are clear, there is no interpretation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's an actual rule.

Prabhupāda: Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was talking. Caitanya said, "When the meaning is clear, why you are giving us this, nonsense?"

 

Room Conversation                                        April 5, 1977, Bombay                                                             490665

Girirāja: ...so even if they do everything else correct in terms of the body. They go farther and farther from the real solution.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has done this mistake. "I am God." What is the use of the advancement of so-called civilization?

Girirāja: We have to show that this is scientific fact. Otherwise the demons will make propaganda that this is sectarian.

Prabhupāda: "Brainwashed." They say "brainwashed."

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if he has already talked with Morarji, and he has agreed, then it is great advance.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Good advance.

Girirāja: He said he would be pleased to meet you. He gave a speech on the television last night.

Prabhupāda: Morarji?

Girirāja: Yes. In Hindi. I couldn't follow all of it, but there was a lot of reference to Gandhi and Gandhi's principles and the..., molding the character of youth. So I told Mr. Rajda--I was watching with Mr. Rajda in his house--that this is the real way to fulfill all of these goals, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Mr. Rajda said yes.

Prabhupāda: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.

Girirāja: Yes, it must have been reported this morning. I mean he is representing a return to the more traditional standards of morality and culture of India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are going to replace this family planning with yoga. Instead of using artificial means, they're going to teach yoga.

Prabhupāda: To become brahmacārī.

Girirāja: The minister of health and family planning, he said, he denied, that "This name should be changed to just minister of health, because this type of family planning is against the traditional values of India."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is totally against it. It's Western, the whole Western conception.

Girirāja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.

Prabhupāda: They can do, all their political divisions. These rascals, they can do. Anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality, nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmeṇa. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized guṇòās. And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a guṇòā. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She seems to have been one of the worst leaders so far.

Prabhupāda: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Indira's husband, a congressman?

Girirāja: He died at an early age.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Who?

Girirāja: He was asking what happened to her husband. I said he died. He was a Parsee. As Your Divine Grace had said, that due to the saìkīrtana movement an auspicious atmosphere is being created all over the world. So is it not possible that at least for the time being things will improve?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Improve. Not for the time being. For ten thousand years.

Girirāja: Yes. Out of 427,000 years I was taking that 10,000 as for the time being.

Prabhupāda: It is nothing sport.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, where is the mention of that ten thousand years?

Prabhupāda: That I have heard it. Maybe in the Bhāgavata. (Editor’s note: Brahma Vaivata Purana)  Such a nice thing. Alone in this world I am struggling, and the so-called intelligent persons, they will not come. They have business. Why? If it is actually beneficial to the human society, why I should alone try? I will go on trying so long I'll live. There will be no checking of... But what kind of intelligent persons there are? (Govindam record in background) It has been approved by intelligent men like... From our section. Most wretched rogues. They do work. They are not so. They are intelligent. They have rejected all these "Lord" ideas and the... Because they have sinned, all humbug. Especially in the Western countries, in the Christian world, what is there? It is bogus. I have condemned it. You have seen that book? One Christian boy inquired. Have you got the copy? Bring. (pause) We shall go on playing govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham. People may hear or not hear. We don't mind.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Mr. Francois Pierre. "My dear Francois." He's in France. "Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated March 17th. Try to understand our mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The world is all going to hell. They do not know what is the value of life. Like blind sheep following a blind leader, they are all going to the slaughterhouse. Human life is meant for saving, but instead the leaders are keeping the people in darkness. This is suicidal. Let us try to save them. Christian, Hindu, or Muslim, it doesn't matter. One must have faith in God. But if one does not know what is God, then what is the question of religion? This sectarian view has caused havoc in the world. Our real business is to know God and one's relationship with God. Do you know what is God? The answers to your questions are as follows: 1) Yes, the message of Jesus is universally applicable. Why not? Jesus says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is applicable to all. But all Christians are violating this law. So where is a Christian? In my opinion there is not a single Christian. Do they follow all ten commandments? 2) We accept Jesus Christ as śaktyāveśa-avatāra, an empowered incarnation of God. 3) The Bible should be accepted literally and not symbolically. There is no symbolical meaning of the sacrifice on the cross. The people were so rascal. They attempted to kill him because he was speaking of God. We can understand the position of that society. He had to deal with such rascals. He preached 'Thou shalt not kill,' and they killed him. The argument that Jesus died to redeem us of sins is simply another sinful argument. That Jesus has taken contract to redeem your sins is simply a plea of the sinners. They continue sinning and expect Christ to take the contract to freedom. It is most sinful. Instead of actually stopping sins, they contract with Jesus Christ. These people should be immediately hanged. That way our..., they say, 'That way our religion is very good. We cannot stop sinning, but it is okay because Christ has taken contract to save us.' It is the same as saying 'I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa now. I can do any nonsense.' That is known as nāma-aparādha, offenses to the holy name of the Lord. 4) Regarding Christ coming again, for the time being, you follow his instructions. Then if he comes it will be all right. Regarding the position of our movement if Christ were to come again, that we shall see when he comes. 'The end of the world' means that the world will be devastated. Just like you have a body and it will be finished, similarly the whole world body will be devastated. Creation, maintenance and annihilation. Naśa in Sanskrit means devastated. 5) There is no difference between a pure Christian and a sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa. 6) Everything is accurately described in the Bhāgavata Mahāpurāṇa. Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He will do anything. The pleasure of God can be awarded by God. In Sanskrit it is described kṛpā-siddhi, perfection out of mercy. One must follow the four regulative principles--no eating meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication; no gambling; and no illicit sex life. Repent of all sinful activities and depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Hoping this meets you well, your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami."

Girirāja: Very nice. Actually, about two years ago there was a propaganda in the West that if you are afraid of sinning, then it means that you don't have full faith in Jesus Christ. Because he has promised to accept your sinful reactions. So therefore if you sin, then it means that you have full faith that he will accept the reaction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said those people should be hanged immediately.

Prabhupāda: When the Bible has said, that after death one goes to hell or heaven? If Jesus Christ has taken a contract, then where is the question of going to hell?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that is for people who don't sign the contract with him. That is what they say. As long as you say that you accept Jesus, then you are going to heaven for sure.

Prabhupāda: So then Jesus Christ accepted sinful reaction of a certain class of men. He is not universal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only those who accept him.

Girirāja: That means the Christians.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And anyone who was born before Jesus, he is doomed.

Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their great philosophy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great philosophy.

Girirāja: So this point was an embarrassment for the Christian theologians, because people would say, "Well, what about great philosophers like Socrates and Plato who lived before Jesus? They are also damned to suffer in hell?" So this question was very perplexing. It was hard for them to condemn that they are all burning in hell. I mean, actually they have no philosophy at all.

Prabhupāda: All nonsense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why we rejected our so-called religious heritage. We could see that there was no substance to it. And the leaders were just like normal debauchees of any other groups. They weren't spiritual. I used to remember seeing the priests and the rabbis getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, talking nonsense just like everybody else. There was no difference except for the dress.

Prabhupāda: This is everywhere. In India also.

 

Room Conversation                                       April 10, 1977, Bombay                                                            491260

Prabhupāda: ...always studying, for the last ten years. It is my conclusion that originally everything Indian, that is very, very high grade--for human society, for personal. That is actual human civilization. Everything, hygienic principles, Vedic knowledge, moral knowledge, everything perfect.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        491290

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have noticed that in the West now they have..., they know that there are certain cures for serious illnesses, and they have outlawed these cures, because they will lose so much money.

Prabhupāda: Everything business. "Bring money. Bring money." Because money is the medium of sense gratification. They have been accustomed to sense gratification. Money is required. So bring money some way or other. And here, the civilization was plain living, simple living. Minimize the expenditure and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you will be happy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unless one lives plainly, he cannot develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām.

Prabhupāda: Tayāpahṛta-cetasām. ANYWAY, NOW YOU LEARN THIS ART. Do good to the rest of the... That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Don't keep them in ignorance. That is paropakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... All saintly persons do like that. Especially Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This civilization is so dangerous. Demonic. Formerly, political fighting is always there. People had no concept. Democracy means that every man has to take part in the competition.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any fool.

Prabhupāda: They have been made fools. There was monarchy. If there was political fighting between the monarch, fighting between two kings, and the general public, "We have no concern with this. Whoever you become king, you take the tax." That's all, finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And the king will protect us."

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "We don't care which one." That was a nice system.

Prabhupāda: Very nice system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unnecessarily people were not being killed.

Prabhupāda: And one fourth, what you have produced, give one fourth to the king. "You come here. See, what I have produced. You take one fourth."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in Europe that system was there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was the world system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they say that that is backwards.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I was studying world history in college, when I read this system, they call it feudal, feudal system, I was very peaceful in my mind. I was very interested how nice everything, orderly... I was impressed with the order. Of course, I did not understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but I could see it was much nicer. This is chaos, the present-day system.

Prabhupāda: There was fighting between two political parties. The cultivator is working on the field. One party soldier and, "Where is the other party's soldiers?" "I have seen, they have gone this way." The soldiers of the king, let them fight. Therefore all the soldiers, they assembled in Kurukṣetra. It had nothing to do with the public. Fighting is going on, killing is going on in that big place. They were peaceful. "You conquer or either Kauravas. We shall pay tax. That's all." Why the public should be drawn?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This vision no one else has except... I mean no one else has it, Śrīla Prabhupāda except for you. It is there in the śāstra, but I don't think anyone else has realized it. There may be many other Vaiṣṇava ācāryas or something in India, but they are not... By the fact that they are not preaching, it means they have not realized it.

Prabhupāda: No, they realized. They have no opportunity. They wanted to preach.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they wanted to, wouldn't Kṛṣṇa have given them the opportunity?

Prabhupāda: Oh, I shall not doubt. They wrote comment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't mean in our line. I mean... Their writing is as good as preaching. I meant to say just like now there is this sampradāya and that sampradāya...

Prabhupāda: Ah, these are... Without this sampradāya, evaṁ paramparā, kick out on their face. All rogues and thieves.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These other...

Prabhupāda: I don't care for them. Immediately kick out. That is, sampradāya vihīna ye mantras te vi(pha)laḥ mataḥ. If he is not coming by this paramparā system, whatever he says, all nonsense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about those who are coming in these other sampradāyas, like Rāmānuja sampradāya...

Prabhupāda: They are bona fide if they are actually following.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was referring to them, that they are not preaching very widely.

Prabhupāda: Then they are useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Because if they wanted to, Kṛṣṇa would have facilitated it.

Prabhupāda: Rāmānuja preached. All the ācāryas preached.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, either in writing or by traveling and speaking. You have done both, though.

Prabhupāda: That is the duty of ācārya. Otherwise he is not... Not that three dozen ācāryas in Māyāpura. Each one has a temple and a few dozen... Not few dozen--one dozen disciples. Bring some rice and eat. They are ācārya. That day I said that, khāi laya khasi bhaja,(?) then everybody became angry. Collecting some money, taking to the holy place, collecting fifty rupees and keeping twenty rupees and spending thirty rupees. This is... In this way they are making livelihood, ācāryas. They say, "Whatever is in our capacity, we are doing." The capacity means when they are speaking that the cockroach is as good a bird as the Garuòa. Cockroach is also a bird and Garuòa is also a bird.

                                                                                                                                                                        491356

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That teaching I also remember from the Bible. There's a statement that "Everyone is being supplied, so don't you think that God will also supply for you?" That's there in the Bible, I think, also. But the Christians, so-called, they don't heed it.

Prabhupāda: And therefore we challenge them, "Who is a Christian?" It is not a single one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, if one studies the life of Jesus, we live more like that than any so-called Christian.

Prabhupāda: So we have got very nice diamond. Try to sell. But if there is a purchaser, he will purchase. Otherwise not. It is our duty to canvas. But we cannot sell iron instead of diamond.

                                                                                                                                                                        491369

Prabhupāda: Now you try to manage the whole world organization and all GBC men. Suppose I am not there. Manage very nicely. Independently. Not to create havoc. But really to manage. I am still present; I will give you direction. Don't spoil it. We are in very good, prestigious position. That is sure. Don't spoil it. So much hard labor. I started with very humble condition. Now it has come to this, such exalted position. You don't spoil it. That is my request. Increase. That will depend on your character, behavior, preaching. Everyone knows. Everyone is astonished. Without any help, I started. Only asset was sincere... Everyone knows it. Otherwise how it is possible?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is our duty as your disciples to preserve everything that you've done. (someone brings in some prasādam--some Hindi conversation)

Prabhupāda: Nim is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very cleansing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Fresh nim, it must be.

Prabhupāda: Nim you cannot take in any other way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't follow.

Prabhupāda: Nim, you cannot take it in other way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One way I have seen it is in suktā.

Prabhupāda: Hm. By cooking?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. That is possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's really Kṛṣṇa's mercy how such a bitter thing is yet palatable. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Take one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very much. (end)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                  April 10, 1977, Bombay                                                            491124

Prabhupāda: Caste system should not be abolished, but it must be properly established. That is wanted. If you have got any defect in the eye, not that the eye should be plucked out. But it should be treated and brought into the normal condition. That is wanted. That we admit. You want to become brāhmaṇa without brahminical qualification. Not only you, everyone wants.

Bhakti-caru: You told Professor Kotovsky that this caste system is existing everywhere, in every society in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In the body there is caste system. The head is the brāhmaṇa, the hand is the kṣatriya, the belly is the vaiśya and the leg is the śūdra. Everything head, that will not help. There must be leg also. But it must be conducted under the guidance of the head. Then it is all right. If the head is not there and leg is utilized for jumping, that is monkey's business. The leg must work according to the dictation of the head. The hand must work according to the dictation of the head. "The caste system should be abolished." What is the caste system? There is no caste system. Everyone is śūdra. Who is a brāhmaṇa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?

 

Morning Conversation                                   April 11, 1977, Bombay                                                           491387

Prabhupāda: ...the planes. It was kept checked by these rascal leaders. Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, this, that, nonsense, interpreting in a different way, Gandhi. It could not distribute its brilliance. Now it is being distributed to show the brilliance and the knowledge first of all. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very much being distributed now, and everyone is appreciating.

Prabhupāda: I am confident this will go on, provided our men are following the process which I have given to them, following the rules and regulations, chanting. Books they have got sufficient already. Simply have to repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any fool you are. Nobody can...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imagine if you would have had one, that one crore of rupees from that Tirupati, Tirumali, every month they have that money available.

Prabhupāda: Hm? You want to speak?

Upendra: Cannot imagine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one and a half million dollars nearly, per month.

Prabhupāda: Money will come. We don't care for these rascals checking. But we must be very sincere. Money is coming, it will come. Kṛṣṇa has given us avenue, these books. We shall sell all over the world huge quantity of books. But they should give us this money, this Tirumala. They are creating anartha, situation which has no utility.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they are doing it with the money which was given in good faith to Kṛṣṇa. That's very objectionable.

Prabhupāda: No, objectionable... The rākṣasas... Just like Kṛṣṇa was there within the womb of Devakī. Kaṁsa imprisoned. So the brilliance of the body of Devakī could not be seen by others, because imprisoned. So if Kṛṣṇa comes from the womb of Devakī, and He will come, similarly if by your endeavor Kṛṣṇa comes in this movement, then these Kaṁsas will be destroyed. He will kill. That day will come when we shall take all the political posts. That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. That is battle of Kurukṣetra. "Take it from Duryodhana. Give it to Yudhiṣṭhira, Arjuna." If you go on steadily, that will be... And all these demons, Kaṁsa, Bakāsura, Aghāsura, sakala incarnations, swamis, yogis... They are Aghāsura and Bakāsura. Just like Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many asuras, disturbing element. You become under some Aghāsura.

Upendra: Some what?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You became under some Aghāsura.

Upendra: Under...? Yes, my own Aghāsura.

Prabhupāda: Did you go to the camp of that Bhajan?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogi Bhajan.

Upendra: No, I didn't go to any other camp.

Prabhupāda: Why you had pāgaṛi like Yogi Bhajan?

Upendra: Oh. My habit is always to...

Prabhupāda: Imitate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That man is such a bluffer.

Prabhupāda: Everyone bluffer. The transcendental meditation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are going to meet a lot of them. They were telling me yesterday, some of Gargamuni's men had been in Kashmir and Srinagar. They said that now is the time coming up, all of the big movie stars, everybody goes to Srinagar, very popular. Most popular resort place in all of India.

Prabhupāda: Our this philosophy will not appeal to these rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I was thinking that also.

Prabhupāda: They want to be bluffed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that if we were to open a center there...

Prabhupāda: No, we will go on opening our centers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot... I mean, we will attract those who are sincere. That's what I was thinking. We cannot change our philosophy simply for followers or money.

Prabhupāda: Just like we invited that Lata, and he was living like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Girirāja.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Invited that...

Prabhupāda: Lata Mangeskar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Lata Mangeskar.

Prabhupāda: He should not do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't have done it, no.

Prabhupāda: What people will think? Keep yourself pure, spotless.

                                                                                                                                                                        491541

Prabhupāda: In the history it is unique. Crores of rupees' property, and all over the world, buildings, temples. It is all Kṛṣṇa's. Nobody can harm them. It is not for me. There is no history. In one, ten years only, books like this, which are being received with so much adoration. They are simply Kṛṣṇa. If I want to take credit personally, this is wrong, sir. So money does not come in that way unless Kṛṣṇa gives. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrībhiḥ. If Kṛṣṇa wants, He can give the whole world. My father used to say, "God has got ten hands. If He wants to take away from you, with two hands how much you will protest? And when He wants to give you with ten hands, with two hands how much you will take it?" That's a common... But people are after money. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        491546

Prabhupāda: These can be distributed to the devotees. Today I have explained the Bhāgavata, prāṇamānāya:(?) how this bodily concept of life is dangerous. These things they do not know. Leaders, big, big papers, big, big propaganda. What is the purpose of life and how dangerous this civilization is, bodily concept of life, they do not know. Bhagavad-gītā begins when they understand that "You are not this body." The whole subject matter is on that soul, the whole Bhagavad-gītā. Bhojendra-gehe 'gni-śikheva ruddhā, sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. I see Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam so exalted knowledge and so beautifully literary presented. Śrīmat. Śrīmat means beautiful. Throughout the whole world, you won't find any literature. This is India's fortune, and they are keeping it packed up. Jïāna-khaleṣu. Jïāna-khala means envious. You have got some knowledge, but you are envious. You don't want to distribute to anyone. They are called jïāna-khala.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jïāna-khala. One who keeps knowledge to himself.

Prabhupāda: Monopoly. They are called jïāna-khala. But real jïānī means if you have got some knowledge, you should daily distribute it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam.

Prabhupāda: No, any knowledge. Just like modern scientists, they do. When they discover something, they give it. Go from university to university. Whatever... They may be wrong. They want to give it. That is the way. In India such vast knowledge, it is kept for professional Bhāgavata readers. How much harm they have done! Some professional Bhāgavata readers, it is their profession. And they will gather some woman and talk of rāsa-līlā and Bhāgavata reading. Some lady, old men, some woman, they will gather and sit down with their grammar,(?) karma-kāṇòa. So that his material position will be better off. And the reciter will gather so many dozens of (indistinct) and umbrella and cloth, and take it away and sell it in the market, and employ it for his son's marriage, daughter's marriage. And this is called Bhāgavata. This is going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some verse in the Bhāgavatam which states that the Bhāgavatam reciter must be a very qualified person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara said, "You read Bhāgavata from a person who's life is Bhāgavata." Bhāgavata paòa giyā bhāgavata sthāne.(?)

 

Room Conversation                                       April 13, 1977, Bombay                                                            491602

Girirāja: Well, he agreed that the modern civilization is a failure and that people are not happy, that people were more happy before.

Prabhupāda: It is a dangerous civilization. You... You should... (pause) Dangerous civilization that labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. After many, many millions of years one gets the chance of becoming a human being, especially civilized and especially in India. They will bring the same. And Kṛṣṇa personally says that if this chance is missed and a person does not become God realized, then he again returns back to the..., to the... Today I am a prime minister. Tomorrow, if I become a dog... What is this civilization? And they will have to become. Nature's law we cannot avoid. And there is no question, "Why you are touching me? I am prime minister." Who cares for you? You have to take account of your activities, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. So human life is so important, and we are simply wasting this valuable life with this temporary adjustment of so-called happiness or distress, big, big plans. Simply bluffing. Indira Gandhi, one daridrāṇaṁ hata(?): "Poverty drive away." Now she is poverty-stricken. "Oh, you want to drive away poverty? Now drive away your own poverty. Where is your position? How you can drive away? You do not dare to come out." Twelve nights. Within one day. Who has made this? This is possible for everyone. Why do they not care, this important knowledge? This knowledge is India's knowledge, and India government is callous. They are not interested in distributing this knowledge. Sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. Just like a person who has got enough knowledge, but he does not give it to others, it is to check the flame. Such a risky civilization... The knowledge is there, and people are kept in darkness. What is this? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So we are the only friends, within this world, of the human society.

Girirāja: That's true. It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: This should be recognized. And sober men, leaders, they should come forward. And India's, this vast knowledge will be... That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Paropakāra. They have got this opportunity how to get out of this entanglement of being covered by the material body, and they are not being given the chance. And we are giving the chance so easy. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni, the same thing. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni. This repetition of birth and death, it is the blazing fire of material existence. So when one understands that "What is my position?" then he'll do this, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, clear understanding, "Oh..." What is this nonsense nationality? Today I am Indian; tomorrow I am a dog. Where is my nation? Where is my family? Where is my father? Where is my mother? So to become mad after these things is my business, or to get out of this material entanglement is my business? And we have got so much facilities. Kṛṣṇa is instructing, Himself. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching personally how to live. And we are not taking advantage? What a suicidal policy. And they are becoming leader, Jayapataka Narayan and this... What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan.

Prabhupāda: Jaya Prakash Narayan. Morarji Desai, Indira Gandhi, and... What they'll do? Churchill and this and Napoleon, Hitler. Simply misguiding, whole history. Simply mis... They are rascals. They do not know what is what, and they lead. Gandhi... All rascals. Vivekananda and Sai Baba, this, that, so many... They should be stopped. That is real philanthropic activities. Where is...? Now we are going to show this planetarium. These rascal scientists: "All desert. All rocks and desert." Simply this planet, for his father's property. This is now happening. "The moon planet is a desert." And from the desert such brilliant light is coming that is illuminating at night the whole universe. And we have to believe it because they are spoken by scientists. You see? All rascals, fools, rogues, thieves, they are leading. And our determination is to stop these rascals. That is our... It is not that "Let the rascals go on with their... Let us make our salvation." Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "No, no, no, I don't want. I don't want. If there is salvation, I must take them also." This is Vaiṣṇava. "I don't want such salvation for my personal..." This is Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye. Naturally a Vaiṣṇava will be unhappy. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. You know this verse? So we must know that these so-called leaders... Just see. He could not do it nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But first of all we must know also what is the position. If we also become enamored by the so-called scientists, politicians, philosophers, then we cannot preach. We must definitely be convinced that they're all rascals. As a gentleman, I can give him some respect. That is another thing. But he's a rascal. You must know that "I am talking with a rascal number one." So I... He cannot deviate me from my position. But I can talk in a nice way, gentlemanly. That is another thing. That is courtesy. But I know that these rascals, number fools, number one fools, they have no idea. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. In this way they are rotting within this universe. Kabhu svarge kabhu martye narake òubāya. Sometimes by puṇya they are in the higher planetary system, some powerful lokas(?). Sometimes fish, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog and cat. This is going on. Kṛṣṇa says. Nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, botheration. Then there is... We have got this... Any intelligent person gets the Bhagavad-gītā. The rascals are reading Bhagavad-gītā, do not understand a line even. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. They do not question even. And after the destruction, body, I am not annihilated. Then where I am going? What is my next life? Na jāyate na mriyate vā. He does not die. The body is changed. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya. So everything is clearly said. They do not inquire even that "After changing this body or change dress, what kind of body or dress I am going to have?" Answer is there. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Everything there. And they are reading Bhagavad-gītā. Gandhi's reading Bhagavad-gītā. Tilak is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Where is their knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā? And misleading all, writing commentary, "Bhagavad-gītā means nationalism, nonviolence," protesting that "If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, I don't want that Kṛṣṇa, even I am extricated from the Hindu society." Gandhi has said. Bhagavad-gītā should be according to his whims. If you can change the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā, then why you take Bhagavad-gītā? Is that authority? If you..., government gives you some law. If you say, "No, no, I don't like this item. I... It should be like this," then is that law, that "I'll take Bhagavad-gītā..."? All these rascals are doing that. The Cinmayananda, they are now: "I'll change according to my whims." Then where is the authority? If I say that "Girirāja, you go there, to the bank," "No, no, I cannot do this. I can do only this," then where is my authority? (laughs) Just see. These rascals are doing that. We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, no change. We do not change. Anybody seriously reading our book, he'll be liberated. There is no doubt. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That's a fact. If not all books, simply Kṛṣṇa book, if one reads carefully, daily, he is liberated undoubtedly.

                                                                                                                                                                        491624

Prabhupāda: This is our flower? Hm? Get all round, flower, the first land vacant. You should plant them. Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ

                                                                                                                                                                        491632

Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's policy. Let the rascal Sarvabhauma speak first of all. Let his talk be finished. Hear silently. And then reply. He'll hear.

 

Room Conversation with M.P.                     April 15, 1977, Bombay                                                             491807

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. This is the regrettable fact, that we have got in India the real knowledge.

Mr. Rajda: Real...?

Prabhupāda: Real knowledge. And we have locked up that knowledge.

Mr. Rajda: We have locked up. That is the greatest crime we have committed.

Indian (1): We have not allowed it to grow all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Jïāna-khala. Sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. There is a verse like this in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Jïāna-khale. If you have got some knowledge, you should distribute it. That will glorify you, not that "I have got some knowledge. I'll keep it secret." So India has got such exalted vast knowledge of spiritual life, and that is locked up. We are imitating the Western dog-dancing. This I wanted to bring to your notice. This will not do any good. So some arrangement should be made that this exalted knowledge of India must be distributed. That I have begun with my humble...

                                                                                                                                                                        491995

Prabhupāda: This is the verse, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. (Hindi) So vast knowledge.

Girirāja: Should I read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the clouds showered all the water that people needed."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the original verse.

Girirāja: Oh, I'm sorry.

kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ

sarva-kāma-dughā mahī

siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ

payasodhasvatīr mudā

Prabhupāda: Translation?

Girirāja: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the cloud showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now read the purport.

Lokanātha: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on the land and cows. The necessities of human society are food grains..."

Prabhupāda: About the land and cows, this is Bhagavad-gītā, mentioned, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Never recommends factory. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. So there is no question of giving protection to the cows if it gives milk only. No. Go-rakṣya. There must be protection to the cow. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the cows pass urine and stool, that is beneficial. And if it gives milk, then there is no question. Hm. What is that?

Lokanātha: "The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. (reads Bhāgavatam purport, 1.5.4) ...Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally?"

Prabhupāda: Simply fighting. They are not peaceful. That's all. Where is peace? You'll be surprised. During gas scarcity the gas was being supplied in Honolulu. This was in our presence. So the gas supply, whatever they had, distributed, and they had one sign board, "No more gas." So next man was so angry that he shot him dead. Just see. He had no more gas; he cannot supply. He became so much infuriated that he shot him dead. This is the result of this modern motorcar civilization. He thought that "Gas will not be supplied. Then I am gone. I am finished. So kill this man." This is education. (Hindi) Provided we train at least some ideal men, everything can be done. Everything is there. There is no scarcity of knowledge in India. We have to simply take it and practically apply it, bas. (Hindi) We are not sentimental (laughs) religious group. Everything practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society. Therefore I require that this must be pushed on for the whole human society, and naturally India also. (aside:)

                                                                                                                                                                        492080

Prabhupāda: That is not possible in the dog. A human being can do. So this opportunity is there, and people are not giving them this opportunity. This is the greatest harmful civilization. They are keeping them in ignorance for that. Anyway, if people agree to take our guidance, we can change the face of the world. That is a fact. Whole world will be peaceful immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe a possible name for this could be "Kṛṣṇa: Messiaḥ of the Harijanas." 'Cause he published, "Who is..." They need a messiaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Every one of us messiaḥ. Anyone Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the messiaḥ. Every one. Why one? All of us. Gaurāìgera bhakta-gaṇe, jane jane śakti dhari, brahmāṇòa tari saksi(?): "The devotee of Lord Caitanya, every one has so immense power that every one, they can deliver the whole universe." Gaurāìgera bhakta-jane, jane jane śakti..., brahmāṇòa tari... That is Gaurāìga's men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only you are that powerful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're like...

Prabhupāda: Why you are not? You are my disciples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're like the bugs.

Prabhupāda: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurāìgera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājïāya guru haïā tāra' ei deśa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Āmāra ājïāya. Don't manufacture ideas. Āmāra ājïāya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ājïā?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. Bas. You become guru.

                                                                                                                                                                        492094

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's certain stipulations to our taking responsibility for the one hundred million harijanas.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We can take them. Why one hundred million? Whole universe we can take. It is Kṛṣṇa ... Method is simple: you have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and speak Bhagavad-gītā. Bas. Where is the difficulty? Why one hundred million? All, whole universe we can take, provided they are prepared. Our business is not difficult. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said we have to execute and speak Bhagavad-gītā. Bas. What I am doing? These two things are. Not at all. But these rascal will not take.

                                                                                                                                                                        492098

Prabhupāda: So? Now, this nationalism idea, so you have trace out the whole history. By introducing this nationalism, what improvement gave? Nationalism, the leader, it began in Europe, the Romans. They wanted to spread. Where are the Romans now? Carthagian, old history, Egyptian, Grecian, then, later on, Moguls or then British. So where are these groups? "Combined together, exploit others." That was, that means, a gang of rogues. Rogues and thieves, they... And by doing that, what they have actually done? The Romans, now their broken buildings are there. And people go to see the fun, how they used to enjoy. What is that called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Coliseum. That's the Greek Coliseum, they...

Prabhupāda: By keeping one lion and fighting him and it is enjoyed. What is this? What they have gained? In this way, the privileged... Is it not subject perception? What Napoleon has done? Or Hitler has done? Or Churchill has done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about nationalism here in India?

Prabhupāda: They are imitating. What Gandhi has done? These things are cheating, spoiled. Then they have now a slogan to drive away poverty. Vivekananda imitated, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. So Vivekananda started his mission in India hundred years ago. Why there are so many daridras lying on the street at night? Hm? Everywhere. Here you can say, "India is poverty-stricken." That is your imagination. Accepting that, those who are materially opulent, why they are also, they're lying on the street? Why in Bowery Street they are lying on the street? Why in the Bedford Park English boys are lying on street?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know... One verse can be quoted that because of one's connection with the modes of material nature...

Prabhupāda: Amsterdam, who they, lying on the street in center of Europe? What have they done about these poor? On the other hand, the poor have learned how to utilize unrestricted sex and indulge in gambling and intoxication.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in America we find that the less intelligent persons are engaging in illicit sex life, so naturally they have more children, and they're eating meat, so the children are very...

Prabhupāda: And female... And women, girls.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: As the man becomes unrestricted in sex life, he has no potency. Either he becomes impotent or he can bring out some girls. We see practically from our association. Mostly they are begetting girls.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From our what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Our association.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our society.

Prabhupāda: Those who are married society. These boys are begetting mostly girl, because they have lost their potency.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know most of our life members, because they're a little bit regulated, mostly sons--three sons, one daughter; four sons, one daughter. It's very common.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If not equal quality...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least...

Prabhupāda: So we have to touch all these. Then poverty... And "Drive away poverty. Give them more money." More money means cheating. You are employing; I am employed. Begins from government. More money and printing, they are coming. If I have got power to print paper and distribute it as money, you are dissatisfied, getting hundred rupees, you want two hundred, so what is to me? I print and give you. This is artificial inflation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More money means printing more bills.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but you haven't increased the...

Prabhupāda: And your enemy country, they're actually happy. They print exactly money like this. They come and purchase goods and give you fortune, anybody. I know. Then what is the difficulty? Suppose this American dollar, is it very difficult to print? So the Chinese, they are America's enemy, they can print, bring millions of dollars and purchase from your country and export to his country and give you some paper. You are... What you can do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can only hope that we'll catch them. We hope that we'll catch them.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, "when we catch." Who will catch? "Bell the cat." It is going on. I know. During wartime, one Chinese man was coming from China, and one business friend, he was appointed his purchasing agent. He was giving a list of goods to purchase. And this man, whatever money he'll charge, he'll immediately--Indian currency. He'll not say, "Why so much price?" No. Then he will pack up the goods and through some channel he'll dispatch it. That is also through our way, not in the... The China is in on the border. There also, if you pay money, smuggler's rate... They try to do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That seems to be a big issue now, these smugglers. I notice in the newspapers every day.

Prabhupāda: The smugglers get with money, printed money. Who can check it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So printed money should have gold behind it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the theory. What is the rate of economy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the idea...

Prabhupāda: That is called...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gold standard.

Prabhupāda: Not gold standard, but there is a technical name. That means if you print notes, currency note, immediately you have to keep stock of gold in the reserve bank. Reserve. Therefore it is called...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The gold reserves.

Prabhupāda: Gold reserve. Gold reserve, yes. At least forty percent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's the idea behind that?

Prabhupāda: What is that? The idea is cheating. The cheating business begins from the government. And why people will not learn to cheat? This is cheating. I am giving you one paper, one hundred rupees, dollars, and you are happy: "I have got so many ..." I am giving you check, ten thousand dollars. You got ten thousand dollars. Now I give you a paper. But it is going on. We have made machinery in such a way that it will go on in hundred rupees or ten thousand rupees. Just like this fixed deposit. I am giving actual money; they are giving a receipt. And it will increase. What increase? The same paper. And gradually inflation is going on. They'll pay at the inflation rate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say they're paying at the investment rate.

Prabhupāda: That is, mean, their plea. Really, today... Just like in our childhood my father had three hundred rupees, and that three hundred rupees is now ten thousand. So if my father would have deposited three hundred rupees at that time, automatically he has become ten thousand... So if you pay me instead of three hundred, say, six hundred or eight hundred, what is your loss? It has already become ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's practical also, because supposing I have a cow...

Prabhupāda: But it may be... This cheating is going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But is it... What I'm asking is this: Supposing you have a cow, and you give to me a cow, so from that cow I get from you...

Prabhupāda: That I understand, that in twenty years you get another..., same money. That is another. But another side is the money is gradually losing its purchasing value.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: My father with three hundred rupees, he was... What he was doing? If you want to do that thing now, you'll require ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means some cheating is going on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Government, through the government.

Prabhupāda: Somewhere or other. Things are there. The rice are there, the dāl is there, the cloth is there, but what he purchased at three hundred rupees, now you have to pay ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they've introduced more and more notes without any gold in their banks. Very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating. That's cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the implication of this cheating? What are the ramifications, the results?

Prabhupāda: Result is that as we say always, that conditioned soul has a tendency to cheat. So they are utilizing this conditional qualification.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With which result?

Prabhupāda: Result is nothing. Therefore we say it is dogs' race, imagination that "We are becoming happy." He's becoming implicated in karma, cheating karma, and losing the opportunity of human life. Instead of applying his energy and intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and get out of this, he is becoming expert in cheating and suffering. Then you become mouse. Unless you cheat, you cannot eat even.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the leaders of government, they are encouraging like that. Instead of encouraging honesty and work according to the varṇas, cātur-varṇyam, they are doing like this to become...

Prabhupāda: There is no honesty all over the world. It is a forgotten. "These are primitive," they say, "Now, the honesty, to become pious, to become religious. These are simply primitive idea." We have to open this. That is a specific subject matter of that... But we have to write very nicely. Everything is based on tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The rascals also argue that... The materialists argue that we're being cheated.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The materialists' argument is that we are being cheated by being promised something imaginary.

Prabhupāda: We are not discussing that, but you are cheating--that is practical. You are cheating. Your government is cheating, giving a piece of paper, cheating me that "You get hundred rupees."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And their cheating in so many... Just like they were paying ninety rupees for a vasectomy, to make someone impotent, to make them sterile, they're giving ninety rupees. They're saying "This ninety rupees is worth... It's worth it to become sterile if you take this ninety rupees."

Prabhupāda: That is paper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, that's cheating. A man can produce a son. A son has got real value in so many ways, but instead they'll give that paper worth...

Prabhupāda: Cheated with ninety rupees, and he's no more...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like the foreigners bought the island of Manhattan for twenty-four dollars from the Indians, the native Indians in New York, twenty-four dollars' worth of trinkets. And they purchased.

Prabhupāda: No, the land was there. Just like Bhaktivinoda Öhākura purchased Māyāpura at eight annas a bighā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now...

Prabhupāda: Two thousand rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they want five thousand. Same land.

Prabhupāda: Land value has increased.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say that land, buying land, is better investment than putting your money in the bank, so much increasing.

Prabhupāda: And they'll not allow. Rather, I cannot purchase land instead of keeping in the bank. They will not allow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they won't.

Prabhupāda: You can purchase, at most, sixty bighās. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Then you get to... But what about the cheating going on, big cheating, international cheating about the space flights?

Prabhupāda: Everything is cheating because so long you are a conditioned soul, out of four defects, one of the defects is cheating propensity, kāraṇa pāṭava, er, vipralipsa.(?) That is a qualification. And in this material world, the more you are expert cheater, you are considered very able man. All over the world, so many expert cheaters are going on.

Devotee (4): Are these people consciously cheating or raised in cheating so that they don't know the difference?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they are cheating. That is a fact. How we have learnt it, that is another thing. But you are cheating. That's fact.

Devotee (4): Just like this President Carter, though, he's supposed to be a religious man and bringing so-called honesty into government, compared to the others.

Prabhupāda: That, everyone says.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And this, these space flight cheatings, this is for the purpose of giving a few men more tax money or fame. That's another reason for cheating, to get fame.

Prabhupāda: I have got tendency to cheat, so people unnecessarily poses himself as very big man even by ideas that you will consider him very great man, although I am nothing. So many gurus, they are doing that. Our business that we want to speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. If Kṛṣṇa has cheated, then we are cheater. Otherwise honest. If Kṛṣṇa is honest, we are honest. If Kṛṣṇa is cheater, so our position is safe. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Other gurus, they are manufacturing how to cheat. That is the difference. We are not speaking anything new. So if Kṛṣṇa has originally cheated you, then I am cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a... A big cheating is going on in the form of speculating. Just like the, all of the teachers, professors... I was reading Satsvarūpa's book. Satsvarūpa was presenting that there's three ways of acquiring knowledge, you know. First way is by sense perception. But that's cheating, because...

Prabhupāda: Hm, pratyakṣa, parokṣa aitihya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The senses cheat us because they're imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing looks like the wrong thing.

Prabhupāda: Call Gopīnātha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he points out that the final method, which is to hear from one who actually knows, that is the best way.

Prabhupāda: That is our... And who knows better than Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satsvarūpa gives the example: Shakespeare is the expert on Shakespeare. Kṛṣṇa is the expert on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is good. Very nice.

Devotee (4): He's coming, Prabhupāda. He was just in the shower.

Prabhupāda: So we have to discuss very thoroughly all these subject matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another form of cheating is done by man and women for sex life. Just like a woman cheats by putting on all this makeup with the idea that "I will attract someone for my sense pleasure." And the man promises so many things: "I will take care of you. I will do this. I will do that."

Prabhupāda: Well, first of all, if you accept that you have got the cheating propensity, then all other things come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So many things, everything. Yeah, practically this whole civilization now is a cheating civilization.

Prabhupāda: Whatever name you can give, it is not civilization. That we have to... Not that "How they are cheating." But it is not human civilization; it is animal. Just as animals cheat naturally. Animal fight. So we have to prove this is animal civilization. (Bengali or Hindi) This is not human civilization. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not human civilization. That we have to prove. How it is not? You have to prove that "This is animal civili... This is not human civili..." Real human business is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra. In ignorance they are doing all nonsense. Stop them. Give them knowledge. This Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is real civilization. That we have to prove. It is clearly stated in... Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious--duṣkṛtina, simply cheating. And therefore narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And human life he's spoiling by cheating like animal. Who cheats? The man who doesn't care for the authority. He cheats. And if a man is afraid of law and government, he does not cheat. So godless person means cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So fear is a principle of control which...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the higher principle would be love. That's our...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) Breakfast. (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does this isabgol do?

Prabhupāda: The dysentery tendency can be stopped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The problem nowadays is that although the controlling agencies, the police force, they are supposed...

Prabhupāda: They are cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They themselves are cheaters.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Cheater. The government is cheater; the government men, they should be honest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Therefore how can the citizens be honest?

Prabhupāda: Why Indira Gandhi is condemned? She was cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nixon too.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And what is guarantee they will not do, this present government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So force in this age is finished as means a for influencing honesty. Force will not work, because the leaders are dishonest. Then we have to teach the principle of love.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu didn't kill. He did not kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. 'Cause Kṛṣṇa killed, but in this age that principle of love...

Prabhupāda: And if you kill, then wholesale will be killed. No... There will be no candidate for learning. You have to kill everyone. That will be at the end, Kalki-avatāra, simply killing, bas, finish. They'll have no capacity to understand. Nowadays there are... They cannot understand this philosophy. But there are some, they are trying to understand. But at the end of Kali-yuga there will be no brain to understand or to hear all these things. Mleccha. That is mleccha. Mleccha means they are so unclean, unstandardized, they have no brain. That is Europe, America. That's ... Mleccha. Kill animals. Eat. Mleccha, they are, according to Vedic, untouchable. If you touch, then you infect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but you did not become infected by our association.

Prabhupāda: But the danger is there. Danger is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore traditionally the sādhus will not go outside India. They won't cross the ocean.

Prabhupāda: And I took the risk. I told you the story, that I was keeping my foodstuff in the same Frigidaire that dog's flesh is here. What can I do? Circumstance. Therefore this rascal, Ginsberg, he used to say, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." And "You do not know what is conservative. I'm so lenient. You do not know what is the meaning of conservative," I used to reply him. If I was conservative, then for a single moment I could not stay here. Immediately I would have gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But with yourself you were very conservative. With others you were very lenient, but in your own personal...

Prabhupāda: No, no, strictly I am not doing because I am keeping my foodstuff in the same Frigidaire where there is leftover and meat and dog's food is kept. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                        April 16, 1977, Bombay                                                           492235

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) I have gone through variety stages of life. So I have got full experience of this material world. I don't want it. That determination is there. Society, family, love, friendship, these nonsense, everything--out! I have tasted. I am no more interested with this material. That is niṣkiïcana. Finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distaste for all worldly things.

Prabhupāda: That I am realizing, that Kṛṣṇa pushed, dragged me through all circumstances, that "These are useless." Niṣkiïcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukha... That is required. Just like Jagāi and Mādhāi. They were made to promise, "No more." "Yes sir, no more." "Then I accept you. That's all right." "No." And they made it, kept their promise. They became faithful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you also demand of us that promise. "Now whatever you have done, never mind, but no more. Follow these four principles." That means if the devotees don't follow, then they will not make advancement.

Prabhupāda: They are breaking their promise. Before accepting them, I make him promise. They promise it. If they break, what can I do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the connection, the contract is finished.

Prabhupāda: This should be the principle. "No more this." Then he becomes fit. Āra nahe vākya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore accepting initiation is a serious matter.

Prabhupāda: Initiation means seriously take up the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vow.

Prabhupāda: And if you make it a fun business, then I become implicated, you become implicated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In what way does the spiritual master become...?

Prabhupāda: Well, this is then something.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to work very hard on behalf of the disciple...

Prabhupāda: No. To accept his sinful reaction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He does that?

Prabhupāda: It is not easy job to become a spiritual master. Yes. Then when it is overloaded, you'll suffer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa transfers the sinful reaction unto the spiritual master from the disciple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Is it because there will be such a heavy...?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says... That is the principle. This is, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. "You have to take all the sinful reactions." This is the principle, that Kṛṣṇa is God. He can nullify everything. But I am not God. When it is overloaded, I have to suffer. This is the principle that the Christian idea that Christ takes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble with the Christians is that they never relieved Christ. They go on sinning. That's not love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The principle is that the spiritual master takes all the resultant sinful action, but the disciple also says that "Now, stop it. Otherwise my spiritual master..." That is gentleman. And "Now use that thing, go on taking our sinful reaction. We will go on with our own business."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not loving at all. That is taking advantage.

Prabhupāda: That is cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating.

Prabhupāda: The same cheating. And he is not liberated because he continues cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly, though, we can see by Christianity that some defect is there. Either it's probably not there on the part of Jesus. He could have given them a way to purify themself, but they...

Prabhupāda: One chance, that "You have accepted me, I take your all sinful reactions." But these rascals continue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His point was that "Now you must continue to follow my instructions."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why ten commandments? And these rascals took it that "I shall not follow any of you. You take our sinful reaction. It is very good religion."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they say no one is more merciful than Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if... We are doing anything, but he still forgives us.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Therefore according to history, he retired. That is resurrection. He went to Kashmir. "It is hopeless."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't die on the cross.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible to kill him. Such a great personality, representative of God, he is not killed. That is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Simply by putting some wounds.

Prabhupāda: He made a show that "I am killed." That is resurrection. And when you finished your business, then he will go (indistinct).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say that when he got down they rubbed his body with oils.

Prabhupāda: He was a great yogi and so on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You remember in that book you were reading, The Aquarian Gospel. It mentioned how he learned yoga when he came to India.

Prabhupāda: We admit. Guru Mahārāja said śaktyāveśa-avatāra, powerful incarnation. Therefore whenever there was question of Jesus, I never disrespected Jesus. Never criticized him, because I know that he is powerful representative of God. We took it from Guru Mahārāja.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja would sometimes...

Prabhupāda: He said that Christ is śaktyāveśa-avatāra, as Buddha. How he can be otherwise? He sacrificed everything for God. He cannot be ordinary man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Hm. That Melbourne meeting, it was... You were present?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I heard about it. With the monks, I think.

Prabhupāda: They very much appreciated. Because they saw that I have got full respect for Christ and his real disciples. And actually we have. Why not? He said, "Thou shalt not kill," and they are interpreting killing. This is going on. And they are Christians. Just see how much cheating. It is clearly written, "Thou shalt not kill." And their only business is killing, and still, they are Christians. How much cheating it is. Whatever little success is in our movement, the cause is I have not tried to cheat. Honestly, what I knew, I heard it from Guru Mahārāja and scripture, I took it. There was no cheating.

                                                                                                                                                                        492362

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Ram Jethmalani: We won't eat in your presence.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Ram Jethmalani: I will be very glad to see that you have taken. Bring immediately.

Prabhupāda:

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti

guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati

bhuìkte bhojayate caiva

ṣaò-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam

Six kinds of loving exchange. One of them is bhuìkte bhojayate. (Hindi conversation) This is, out of the six items, the two items. (Hindi) Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. (Hindi) This is the science of love. Everything is there.

Ram Jethmalani: What are the other four? You told us two.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is asking what are the other four symptoms of loving exchanges.

Prabhupāda: These six is sufficient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You gave two. He wanted to know what the first...

Prabhupāda: Oh, dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, to give and to accept. And (Hindi), to give him food, and when he offers, take it. You open your mind to him and let him open his mind to you. Guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. Guhyam means confidential. Unless you love me, how can I speak to you my confidential subject? So give and take, the English word is love. This is love, beginning. In European, American countries there is free love. So they offer flower. He or she accepts. And in this way love begins. Kṛṣṇa also says, love of Kṛṣṇa begins also in that way. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. (break) These things. Simply with love if you offer to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa: aham aśnāmi, "I eat." Is Kṛṣṇa hungry? Tad aham aśnāmi. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Tad aham aśnāmi. Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. The real thing is love. Patraṁ puṣpam is no value. Or luci puri is no value. The real value is love. Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Therefore he does not accept anything from anyone else unless he is a devotee. This word is used, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. (Hindi) You understand Hindi?

 

Room Conversation                                       April 17, 1977, Bombay                                                            492607

Guest (2): Real socialism in there in Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: In the Seventh Canto. That in your house if there is even a snake, see that he is not starving. This... Just see. If there is a lizard, if there is a snake, then see that he is not starving. You must give him food. Where is that communism?

Guest (1): We appreciate Communism as it stands now or socialism, what they call it?

Prabhupāda: No. Our communism is that Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ: "In every species of life, as many forms of life are there, material nature is their mother and I am the seed-giving father." So everyone is Kṛṣṇa's son. And everything is īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property. Every son has got the right to enjoy the property of the father. This is our...

Guest (1): In the essence of Communism the very fact of existence of God itself is denied.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guest (1): The existence of God itself is questioned or denied in Communism.

Prabhupāda: They may deny so many things foolishly, but that is not the fact.

Guest (1): We understand. But even to such peoples, Communism, the word itself shows it is not accepting God. Then why we should interpret that Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā, whatever we have, is....

Prabhupāda: They may not accept God, but they are sons of God. You may become a madman--you don't accept your father. That does not mean that you have no father.

Guest (1): But he is a madman.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so madman, that should be treated. That is humanity. A madman, he has become mad, and "Get him out." No. Human society's duty is to treat him, to become a sane man.

Guest (1): And that type of man requires a special treatment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, a special treatment...

Guest (1): So the books which you have written for other people.

Prabhupāda: No. You don't require to read book. We simply say that "You come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." This is treatment. These boys, foreigners, they have come to me not by reading my book. First of all I invited him, "Sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." And then gradually. This is the general treatment.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                  April 19, 1977, Bombay                                                            493424

...and the host was very rich man in anywhere. And he has no son. He expressed his desire to father to take me. This is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your father would not give you up. He was a sannyāsī?

Prabhupāda: Another gentleman in Hasi(?)... We were going in the same car. So he requested me, "Please come here." An old man, nice, very well-to-do man. And after giving the nice seat and some refreshment, so he said that "I like you very much. I have no son. Why don't you become my son?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like everyone is very affectionate to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. He picked up on the street like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ne, adopted son, that is a practice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America also, they have the foster home. The children are there, and parents may go and adopt some child.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. So that village gentleman, that place I liked.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you have agreed to stay with him?

Prabhupāda: I would have been glad. Very nice foodstuff, very nice, clean, and he has got his fresh vegetables, like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How old were you?

Prabhupāda: At that time I was ten years old. Or twelve years. Not more than twelve years. But I liked that place very much. They still presented the foodstuff, fresh. I have been many... Not many. In the village so tasteful, fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, and they cooked so nicely. Nice milk. Everything very nutritious. That life is gone. What is this nonsense life, hanging in the daily buses, outside. Kṛṣṇa advises to live village life, agriculture, and utilize time for understanding your spiritual life. That is... So we are trying to introduce this, this farm life.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                  April 22, 1977, Bombay                                                            493940

Prabhupāda: No, not that. Something must be eaten. I was feeling weakness in the evening. But what can I eat? I have no taste for fruits. Milk also, not very much taste I have got. Naturally I won't eat now(?).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have a taste for nim?

Prabhupāda: That is compulsory. Whatever little benefit is there in the leaf of nim... Still, I have got taste for nim begun(?). You like that? I think I shall take little, little milk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That will give strength. Milk produce strength. And it is suitable for everyone: children, diseased, invalid, old men. It is such a nice food. Everyone in any condition can get some benefit.

                                                                                                                                                                        493999

Prabhupāda: No, you become guru, but you must be qualified first of all. Then you become.

                                                                                                                                                                        494012

Prabhupāda: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...but not now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become ācārya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all ācārya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The process of purification must be there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants that. Āmāra ājïāya guru haïā. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not rubber stamp.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gauòīya Maṭha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): "Joint mess." He said this.

                                                                                                                                                                        494050

Prabhupāda: Stick to our principle, and see our GBC is very alert. Then everything will go on, even I am not present. Do that. That is my request. Whatever little I have taught you, follow that, and nobody will be aggrieved. No māyā will touch you. Now Kṛṣṇa has given us, and there will be no scarcity of money. You print book and sell. So everything is there. We have got good shelter all over the world. We have got income. You stick to our principles, follow the... Even if I die suddenly, you'll be able to manage. That's all. That I want. Manage nicely and let the movement go forward. Now arrange. Don't go backward. Be careful. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya.

 

Meeting                                                          April 23, 1977, Bombay                                                           494115

Prabhupāda: And you want cloth. That is primary necessities. So if you become independent about these things, your eighty percent economic problem is solved. So this is a wrong type of civilization only. That Gandhi's program was very nice. We want to revive.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, we... In fact, we have sent our students at Sabarmati Ashram itself, and the person... He is still with us. He's top of the list in the Sabarmati Ashrama, who was doing it.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, we can take up this enterprise immediately. Whether we can induce the villagers, neighboring inhabitants, to cooperate? That is wanted. Otherwise what we shall do with this building?

Mr. Dwivedi: Correct.

Prabhupāda: So our Gandhi's program failed because he could not attract the villagers to these activities. Everyone wants some attraction. That we were discussing, rasa, catur-vidhā-rasa, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. So we have to educate them to be attracted by the mokṣa-rasa. Then they'll stay. Unless there is rasa... Just like if you put a little sugar, small black ants will come immediately. The rasa is there. Raso vai saḥ. If... If you cannot attract people to some rasa, they'll not stay. Just like these Americans, foreigners, they have tasted little rasa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore they are sticking. That we have to create. That is bhakti-rasa. So our first beginning is that the villagers may come, we have our temple, and they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and give them nice prasādam. And then, gradually, they will be attracted to this rasa. So that we want. So if we people cooperate... We have got our program already. The present problem is that they are being attracted with this artha-rasa. There are four kinds of rasa, catur-rasa: dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. So somebody is tasting dharmārtha, ritualistic ceremonies. Somebody is economic development in the cities, artha. Somebody is attracted, sense enjoyment, sex. And somebody, very pure, mokṣa-rasa. Catur-rasa. So in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness all the four rasas are there. Simply we have to present. So that is possible by the bhakti-rasa. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanam... So we have to begin. The villagers must come, sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, and give them prasādam. If you can bring them, so far money is concerned for giving prasādam, that we shall arrange. Then, gradually, let them be engaged in spinning all their necessities of life, in plowing, in protection of the cows. They get some... We have done it already in foreign countries--enough milk, enough vegetables, enough food grains. They're so happy. They're so happy. This nonsense civilization, attracting to earn money and construct anthill... These skyscraper buildings are as good as the anthill. It has no meaning. But they are constructing. So the change of attraction. Raso vai saḥ. All the rasas, they should be trained up to take it from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have got the rasa from You. I don't want anything more." This is perfection. Otherwise, for these material rasas, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. That I was discussing last night. They have got sex rasa at home. Still, they're going prostitute-hunting. (break) "Mahatma Gandhi, you have got influence over the Muslims. Why don't you stop cow-killing?" And he said, "Oh, how can I stop it? It is their religion."

Mr. Dwivedi: Which is not a fact.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Which is also not a fact. Which is also not a fact.

Prabhupāda: I do not wish to discuss our...

Mr. Dwivedi: Because he tried to mix politics with religion...

Prabhupāda: Yes!

Mr. Dwivedi: And therefore...

Prabhupāda: It was failure.

Mr. Dwivedi: ...he could not succeed.

Prabhupāda: It was failure.

Mr. Dwivedi: If he had tried only religion or only social reform...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of religion. Religion is... Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are everything. Religion follows same thing, not that religion is impractical.

Mr. Dwivedi: It is nobody's religion, what little I know of the few religions, that to advise that "You must take a particular type of flesh and not the other type."

Prabhupāda: No, flesh you can take if you are carnivorous, but not this cow's flesh. That is particularly instructed in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa did not say that "You be non-meat-eater." That is not possible. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Every living entity is living by eating another living entity. That is the laws of nature. But there are different types, so in the human society, if there are persons who want to eat flesh, so they can eat that nonimportant, small animal. But don't touch cow. That is Gītā's instruction. Go-rakṣya, He has particularly said. If you are so mean that you have to eat some flesh, there are hogs, dogs, and... And you can eat. But don't touch cow. Gandhi posed himself as a great student of Bhagavad-gītā, but he did not understand a single line. That is the defect. Gandhi took it, Bhagavad-gītā, as a childish play. Dangerous... Therefore country is ruined. You must take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then there is authority. You cannot change it. If you change it, where is the authority? Can you change the simple law, "Keep to the right; keep to the left"? No. It is authority. If the direction is "Keep to the right," you must keep to the right. You cannot say that "What is the wrong if I keep to the left?" Then there is no authority. So Gandhi, Tilak, and Aurobindo and so on, so on, they took Bhagavad-gītā as a childish play. Whatever they want, they interpret that. And Vivekananda supported, yato mata tato patha: "You can have your own opinion." These are all nonsense. Therefore country is ruined. You must take as it is. Then it will be... You cannot change the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya...

Mr. Dwivedi: Vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam.

Prabhupāda: So go-rakṣya, not... Just like Vinoba Bhave recently, "Cows which have delivered milk should not be sacrificed." Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Only the cows which are delivering milk, they should not be sent to slaughter." Go-rakṣya. Even they are not delivering milk...

Mr. Dwivedi: Go-rakṣya means go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: Go-rakṣya.

Mr. Dwivedi: Rakṣya means go-rakṣya. It doesn't mean that the sick should not be protected, the weak should not be protected. Go-rakṣya means go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Honest, in India, the ninety-nine, more or less...

Prabhupāda: They're all violators.

Mr. Dwivedi: ...are materialists.

Prabhupāda: All violating. You see? I had been recently in Gandhi's āśrama at Trinoba(?). I do not wish to say, but they do not understand Gītā.

Mr. Dwivedi: Because they mixed politics with religion and wanted an adjustment...

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Why you take...? Religion is also, we shall do. As soon as I say religion, you say, "I have got my religion." It is science. "Two plus two equal to four" is equally understandable by Hindus, by Muslim, by Christian. "Two plus two equal to four," everyone knows. Everyone should accept. "Because I am Hindu, therefore two plus two equal to five"--that cannot be. So Bhagavad-gītā was misrepresented that it is meant for the Hindus. If it is meant for the Hindus, why they are coming? What is the use? They were Christians. They were Jews. Why they are coming? It is a science. So we have to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is--science. Reli... It is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. But they misunderstand religion. We described in a...

Mr. Dwivedi: And even the present brāhmaṇas also equally misunderstand. For instance, Gītā is compulsory in every institution right from the very beginning. So at one time, because it was compulsory for Muslims, even it was compulsory for the harijanas. I stood excommunicated for some time. Now sometimes complaint goes to the government, "What is solution?" And therefore they say, "Why government should hear you? You are complaining everybody." "This is not everybody. This is..." Gītā is no particular religion's book. It is a cosmopolitan...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have no eyes to see. Why these people are accepting Gītā? They are not Hindus. They are coming from Christian family, Jewish family, Muhammadan family. They could not present. They had no power to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They are simply puffed up. So we have to develop that institution that it is meant for. In South Africa I was in a college for lecturing. There was a Arya-samaj. He says that "You are presenting Gītā. It is for the Hindus." "No, this is for everything, everyone. When Kṛṣṇa says that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, does it mean for the Hindus? The Muhammadan kaumāra does not become yuvaka? Or the Muhammadan yuvaka does not become old man? So why do you say like that?" Mūòhas. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā generally accepts anyone.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jïānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

We test like that. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a mūòha, duṣkṛtina, narādhama. That is our general definition. How we do it? Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. Mūòhas. So therefore it is required that people should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything is all right. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijïāte sarvam idaṁ vijïātaṁ bhavati. Everyone, time will believe. So we can take up, we can immediately begin, but if local people cooperate, then we can do the rest. That is...

Mr. Dwivedi: There is no question of cooperation. We fully believe what you say. Cooperation means...

Prabhupāda: Cooperation means what we say they must do.

Mr. Dwivedi: We have firm faith in what you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we can take any...

Mr. Dwivedi: Cooperation can come even from a person who may not understand a whit.

Prabhupāda: No, cooperation means that.

Mr. Dwivedi: In our own small way we try to live to what Your Grace has been telling me. We live actually in life.

Prabhupāda: Don't try to... That is cooperation. Don't try to amend the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. That is cooperation. The rascals, they amend. And what can I do? I can use this strong word. This is used in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūòhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, duṣkṛtinaḥ. So it is not my manufacture. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Why we should amend Kṛṣṇa's word? Surrender and do. That is cooperation. All these swamis who...

Mr. Dwivedi: Are we even one millionth of what Kṛṣṇa was? If we are even one millionth of what Kṛṣṇa was, we...

Prabhupāda: No, you are. You are. Kṛṣṇa says. You are sample of Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Dwivedi: We are sample of Kṛṣṇa. Correct.

Prabhupāda: But... So your duty is to cooperate. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ. Living entities, Kṛṣṇa says, they are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It's duty, primary duty, is to cooperate what I say. I say the finger, "Come here." Immediately... That is the duty. That is cooperation. And I say the finger, "Come here," and finger goes anywhere, that is not cooperation. Similarly, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is cooperation. Then it will be successful. If you manufacture your own meaning, amendment, and your scholarship, nonsense, then you spoil. In politics, nonviolence? Hm? Just see. Do you think Gandhi became successful by nonviolence? Do you think? Violence. When Subhas Bose organized this I.N.A. it was successful. Otherwise he failed in South Africa; he failed in India.

 

 

 

Then how the system is bad, that a rogue comes to the topmost post and a good man is put into the prison? Is not the system defective? Imperfect? Some way or other, you can become very important, and the actually important man you can cut down…So the whole civilization is so defective.

 

 

So, so many people are suffering for want of good leader throughout the whole world. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. They are in ignorance, and some rascals are leading them…They are not trained up. Just like these dogs at night, they are very busy. Nobody has appointed them. But he is thinking, "I am in charge of this, watching." As soon as one dog will bark, all they, "Oh, gow! There is some important duty. Come on. Come on." And "Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughs) And who has appointed him? They, all the politicians, are like that. Nobody likes... "Oh, oh, give me vote. Give me vote. I shall give you this arrangement." And barking amongst themselves, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Therefore I said that the United Nations is an assembly of barking dogs.

 

 

 

My, this farming program, theoretically there is no comparison. But practically people are accustomed in different way. To bring them to the program it will take some time. Otherwise my program is assured happiness, happiness assurance, if they get... Have your own food grown. Keep cows. Have your own crops. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa…Don't go to the city. That is my determination. The hellish city.

 

Niṣkiïcanasya. One who has decided that "This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer." Body means... Those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them…. But the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life. That is same thing.

 

So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside…So one who is giving service, dedicated life, so maybe... But no salary. They may live in the temple, woman separate, man separate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're... But the actual thing is that they're being, living together in an apartment, and the temple is paying for that apartment. They're not living separately in the temple. They're being...

Prabhupāda: That is to be discouraged…In the name of Vaiṣṇavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment…The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he's disgusted with this material world… So these things should be stopped, that they should live comfortably with husband and wife, children, and take salary from the... You decide. This is not to our... Besides that, in our BBT it is clearly written that "Fifty percent for printing book, and fifty percent for..." So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, "Welcome." Otherwise we don't require. At least they should not be given any salary. That is very bad. This is against principle.

 

So that principle about living together and salary...

Prabhupāda: That is...

Girirāja: That is meant to apply everywhere in the society.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is exploitation of the society… Otherwise no need. We need their service, but not by being salaried. That is not good.

 

They are not actual leader. They are animals, but because we are small animals, we are praising. So it is very difficult to understand our philosophy, but still, we have to preach. That is our mission. A little drop, maybe like a film or less than that...(referring to ants) Still, they are... And again, when you cleanse this, you kill them--you become implicated. You have killed. You have to suffer. They are disturbing; still, you cannot kill them. This is your position. But people are with Flit (a bug killer) killing thousands of mosquitoes and flies, becoming implicated… Prevention is better than cure. They are meant for that purpose. God has made. So instead of killing them, you protect your...

 

...the āṭā dough. So after it is cooked... They have got ghee. That ball soaked in ghee and the òāl, it is so nice when taken. That is called baṭī. Very quickly made. And after eating, with that ash the two or three utensils, mean the loṭā and the plate, they'll cleanse it very nice and walk away. And that food is sufficient for twenty-four hours. Within twenty-four hours he will not be hungry and feel very strong. The two things. And you can cook anywhere without any difficulty. In India, especially in village, you can get so many dried cow dung. So fuel is ready. The āṭā is packed up. And ghee in a pot. That's all. How simple life. Simply they'll sit down where there is water, and they'll take water. Then everything is arranged. No hotel. Or even there is no āṭā, they keep their own ghee, homemade, pure. Āṭā can be purchased anywhere in the village. There is no need of carrying āṭā. So this preparation for tourists... Tourists, Indian tourists, means going to some holy place. They have no other sightseeing, no program.

 

Now you GBC, young boys, all, American, expert, you have got all intelligence, resources, so don't spoil. Let the movements go forward more and more…I have given my ideas and direction in my books. People appreciate. I think from my side I have done everything. Is it not?

 

 

I want to take cow's milk. This is all rubbish.

 

 

 

Boys and girls. That is dangerous…Girls should be completely separated from the very beginning. They are very dangerous… Both of them are ruined…Woman brahmacāriṇī, this is artificial…Therefore polygamy was allowed… Women should be taken care of--as daughter, as wife, as mother, bas. No freedom. Then prostitution. Then spoiled the whole thing. Unwanted children, contraceptive, abortion. Very dangerous. In our society there are girls. They should live separately. They should be given full engagement, taken care of. No mixing. Then it will spoil…You should take care of these things from the very beginning--if you want actually spiritual life. If you want to progress like animals, that is different thing, as the whole world is doing. We want to maintain an ideal institution. People may see. In Christian idea also, the nuns were separate…If there is no training, naturally it will deteriorate.

 

No, you also understand now that charge, how it is a fact. The fact is, as it is in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to change your body. Then, if you have to change your body, then where is the question of nationalism? The first thing is mistake. And the nationalist leader, they are taking Bhagavad-gītā and jumping like dog on nationalism. Where is the question of nationalism? Answer me. Hm?

 

He's busy. That is cats, just like these cats and dogs at night. Nobody has given him charge, but he is thinking "I am in charge of the road. Why this put-put motorcar, you have come here? Go on. Go on. Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" But who has given him charge? But he's starving, and people are throwing stone upon him, but he's thinking "I am in charge of this business.

 

That means once you have sex and then abstain for sixteen months. You know what is that dharma? So who is such a foolish man that for once having sex and then abstaining...? Therefore those who could not abstain, they used to keep many wives.

 

What is the cost of one...? One rupee per pound. But if you weigh one cloth, what is the weight? Not even one pound. And they charge twenty rupees…First of all make him daridra, and then take credit--"daridra-nārāyaṇa"? Just see how cheating is going on. But we are projecting this path for them: let them remain in their home, produce their own food only and cloth and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our policy. Our policy means Kṛṣṇa's policy.

 

... At night he takes charge of the street. Nobody has appointed him, but he takes charge, and whole night: "Gow! Gow!" If somebody, new man, enters the neighborhood, "I am in charge." You see? "Why you have entered?" So this is going on. "I am leader of this country." So what is this civilization? Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the leader…From all angles of vision, if you study Bhagavad-gītā, everything is perfectly there. And if you take it seriously, you become happy in this life and dehāntare.

 

For this purpose we request every one of you that you study Bhagavad-gītā very seriously as it is, apply it in your practical life, and teach it to others. That is perfection…If you want to revive real Indian civilization or Vedic civilization for the good of the whole human society, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. There is no doubt.

 

India is not meant for exploiting others. But unfortunately the knowledge is... Sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. We have got the store of knowledge, but we have kept it locked up, not distributed to the world. They are called jïāna-khala.

 

So in the beginning there may be offenses. It doesn't matter. It will be rectified. Offenseless chanting means mukti, and then pure chanting means love of Godhead…So offenseless chanting makes one liberated, and then pure chanting makes one lover of God. This is the process. So chanting is definite mystic power…So one has to purify, that "I am neither American, neither Indian, nor brāhmaṇa, or so many designations." Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam.

 

So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. ... System of purification, how to become designationless.

 

Any question is solved by Kṛṣṇa. Politics, economics, religion, culture, philosophy--everything is discussed very thoroughly. Simply one has to understand. Then he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

But here Caitanya Mahāprabhu is giving directly love of Kṛṣṇa. That means Kṛṣṇa understanding is automatically--finished. Therefore He is addressed as the most magnanimous. So it is not at all seldom. As the age is fallen, the most magnanimous incarnation is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He is giving directly Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-prema. You take it.

 

My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Don't try to see a sādhu by your eyes. You try to see a sādhu by ears."

 

If death takes place, let it take here. So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn't matter.

 

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

This is India's culture. The whole world is in darkness, and they are risking their life in the transmigration of one body to another, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-var... The rascals do not know what they are doing. They are simply taking account of few years. He does not know that he's eternal. A few years, a fragment, a pass, passing way, that's all. A passing flash. And bharam udvahato vimūòhān. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy… That is Vaishnavism. "What these rascals are doing, jumping like monkey, wasting time?" That is Vaishnavism. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī.

 

And as soon as there is enough money, there is debauch, debauchery…So it is the fact. If there is civilization, that is this Aryan civilization in India, Vedic civilization…Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to make them civilized. Paścimera loka saba mūòha anācāra. They are all fools and misbehaved. Teach them this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They'll be happy. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

 

That is our next step, how to make one civilization, Kṛṣṇa conscious.

 

Yes. Kṛṣṇa is giving you good chance. Develop farm and have temple. Go on enthusiastically…That I want. I... Everywhere I go and say, ..Give them facility. We know how to do it. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Let them engage in kīrtana. There will be more water for gardening, and it will be moist, and then produce fodder for the animals and food for you. And animal gives you milk. That is Vṛndāvana life…How they were happy, the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana with Kṛṣṇa and living and cows. That I want to introduce. AT ANY COST DO IT and... Don't bother about big, big buildings. It is not required. Useless waste of time. Produce. Make the whole field green. See that. Then whole economic question solved. Then you eat sumptuous. Eat sumptuously. The animal is happy. The animal even does not give milk; let them eat and pass stool and urine. That is welcome. After all, eating, they will pass stool. So that is beneficial, not that simple milk is beneficial. Even the stool is beneficial. Therefore I am asking so much here and..., "Farm, farm, farm, farm..." That is not my program--Kṛṣṇa's program. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce greenness everywhere, everywhere. Vṛndāvana. It is not this motorcar civilization…But if he can come to see me... This program he's taking. The whole world will be happy.

 

Yaśomatīnandana: "Kāmam--everything needed." Translation: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man profusely. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: Introduce this...This is the secret. What is the second line?

…Ah. Let them remain happy and automatically...

 

...make the whole land, people, very happy. You show this example all over the world, this example, in America. Don't spoil money. Show by example. Enough science and enough motorcar, that's all. No more wanted. This is wanted. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Bring water from the sky. Keep always land moist and green. This is wanted. It is not my desire. It is Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Here Vyāsadeva says, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ.

Factory means ruination. Factory means destruction. And agriculture means construction.

 

We have no other business. We want to see people live, eating very nicely nutritious food, keeping good health. But unnecessarily artificial things, bothering, that we don't want. Keep your health very nice, live for as many years as possible, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you go back to home, back to Godhead, permanent life. Yad gatvā na nivartante. This we want to give. There is no cheating. There is no politics, no personal ambition fulfilling. This is our mission. Try to convince them. There is not a little tinge of personal sense gratification.

 

Our only ambition is we live among devotees and execute the mission of our predecessors, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa. This is our ambition.

tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās

janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ

We have got ambition, but this is our ambition, that live with devotees and execute the mission of our predecessor. This is our aim. Without ambition nobody can live. Self-interest, ambition, is everywhere. But self-interest is to execute the Kṛṣṇa's desire… So you are Americans, and they are responding. You are responding means Americans responding. So do very carefully, and if one fourth of America becomes Vaiṣṇava, the whole world will change. They are the leading nation. Kṛṣṇa has given them all facility--good land, good intelligence, good education, good facilities, good prestige. Is it not? They are fortunate. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī. Everything is there. Take this opportunity. This is our ambition. I went to America with this ambition, that "If the American people will take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness..."

 

He has no danger. He's sticking to that New Vrindaban program, improving, very good example… Very happily. That is life. Eat very sumptuously nutritious food. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas.

 

…I hereby will that none of the immovable properties in India in the name of ISKCON shall ever be mortgaged, borrowed against..."

Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Everywhere.

 

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, give protection.

Rāmeśvara: "Properties outside of India on principle should never be sold."

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said to write this now, so... "Properties outside of India in principle should never be sold."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. "But if the need arises, they may be."

Girirāja: Do we have a list of these?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If the need arises...

Rāmeśvara: "They may be sold or mortgaged, etc...."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "By the consent..."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Sold or mortgaged, never.

Girirāja: Prabhupāda doesn't want us to put in "can be sold or mortgaged..."

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the point is "with the consent of the GBC committee members."

Prabhupāda: Better not to be sold.

 

A horrible position. People have lost their freedom, their culture, spiritual life…Most uncivilized. Most uncivilized. I have described to you, "two-legged animals."…So why they are so much anxious, "You should not overpopulate"? Even in these days in India, in the interior villages they invite you that "Please come. We have got enough grain, enough milk. You eat with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And they are going forcibly there to give this sterilization.

 

So earthen pot is so nice. Jagannātha Purī, they cook it in earthen pot and throw it away. It is very palatable. You can try an earthen pot… It is very digestive, very palatable and suitable for me, this kind of food. Yes. It will automatically increase appetite. It is so nice.

 

Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff.

 

.... As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam. There must be brāhmaṇas. …Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At any cost do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY THREE

Morning Talk                                                 April 25, 1977, Bombay                                                           495135

Prabhupāda: ...said that "This is our mission. Now whether you'll cooperate?" We cannot make any compromise. (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        495156

Prabhupada: Now the... We can see practically how the system of civilization is bad, that this Indira Gandhi, rākṣasī, she became exalted in the topmost rank, and she thought... A person who is equally good or more than her, he was imprisoned. Then how the system is bad, that a rogue comes to the topmost post and a good man is put into the prison? Is not the system defective? Imperfect? Some way or other, you can become very important, and the actually important man you can cut down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Envious system.

Prabhupāda: Animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Animals are envious also.

Prabhupāda: Envious is everywhere. So the whole civilization is so defective. Somehow or other, you come to the power, and you do whatever you like, and the people in general will have to depend on such leaders for their welfare. How they can be happy? If the whole system is defective, how they can be happy? The same man, in one day he's very important, in the next day he's the most degraded. And the most degraded man, previously he was praised by millions of people and next day he's condemned. That means who elevated her to the post, they're all rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Śva-viò-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ. So what is the value of such election, and what is the value of such important men? Therefore the whole system is condemned. Is it not the fact? Everywhere, not only in India. Not that the actual good man is on the head of the ruling power.

                                                                                                                                                                        495197

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kārttikeya. He... Nobody should speak when I am speaking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Unless he's permitted. That is the etiquette. It is not ordinary talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Everyone should take note of this, and you can privately say, "You never speak like that. The etiquette is: when you are permitted by Guru Mahārāja, you can speak," not that "He is speaking. I know better than him. I shall speak something." That's very licentious. It is not ordinary talk. The system is unless he is ordered that "You explain," then nobody can talk. And outsider, they may do. They should not... They also should not, but that is the system. And Viśvambhara may... If possible, he can come for one or two days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that same thing, that instead of writing Akṣayānanda, maybe I should write Viśvambhara. Or both of them could come. Do you think it is all right if they both come?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking the same thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So today I have to write a letter. As soon as the ticket is booked, I shall write a letter to Akṣayānanda Mahārāja. One copy we will send in the post, and the other we will give by hand to Nava-yogendra Mahārāja. I think it will be a very nice program.

Prabhupāda: And if the President comes, it will be very, very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that'll give good establishment of our program.

Prabhupāda: I can at least present. So, so many people are suffering for want of good leader throughout the whole world. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. They are in ignorance, and some rascals are leading them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it would make...

Prabhupāda: And spoiling the chance of human life. Nature's law will go on. If somebody becomes next life a dog... There is possibility. These political leaders are like that. They are not trained up. Just like these dogs at night, they are very busy. Nobody has appointed them. But he is thinking, "I am in charge of this, watching." As soon as one dog will bark, all they, "Oh, gow! There is some important duty. Come on. Come on." And "Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughs) And who has appointed him? They, all the politicians, are like that. Nobody likes... "Oh, oh, give me vote. Give me vote. I shall give you this arrangement." And barking amongst themselves, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Therefore I said that the United Nations is an assembly of barking dogs. Actually that is. They cannot do anything. What they have achieved, the United Nations?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wasting money.

Prabhupāda: And each representative of nation, they're talking day and night, and all, they have got their... There was a Mr. Mellon... And he was speaking, and he was showing. He fainted, and people took him, "Oh, he's such a good representative." And what he did, actually?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He fainted?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was the cause?

Prabhupāda: The cause was Pakistan and India. Pakistan is accusing India, and India is accusing Pakistan in United Nations.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when Pakistan accused India, he became so shocked that he fainted?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They were talking, barking. He was barking, and he was barking. One barking dog became fainted. (laughs) That's all. Nobody could achieve anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: They're simply barking, but this weak dog became fainted. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they praised him for that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Oh, he has talked so much." (laughter) I saw that "These two dogs are barking only. One of them fainted."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a picture in the newspaper showing the students going to school, and each one of them was shown as a dog with a hat, graduation hat on, comparing the students to dogs. There was a cartoon, very apt.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are creating so many dogs. "Can you give me any service?" "No vacancy! Get out!" And somebody becomes a... "All right, a bit of bread..." And: "Oh, oh, you are so kind." These śūdras... The number of śūdras have created this world situation so bad. (break) In your country also the farmers wants to go to the city to become educated and never comes back again. They are no more interested.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Actually Paramānanda was telling me that, you know, he's made some very close friends amongst the farming people, not our own people. So every year he goes back to near New Vrindaban, 'cause he made friends with the local people there, and he spends a week with them, and Devakī-nandana also. So he says that now he helps them. Whenever he goes, he helps them with the farming because their sons are all starting to marry the girls from the city, and they're not so much inclined towards the farming work. So the father and mother, even though they're getting older, they have to more and more work because the children are not helping them.

Prabhupada: The city girl, she does not wish to come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's too... What should I say?

Prabhupāda: They are not faithful wives.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want the cinema and all of the other things. They don't want to work hard. Farm life means to work hard. You have to get out and milk the cows, so many things. They don't want to do this. They want to stay at home.

Prabhupāda: Stay home and read fiction and drink.

                                                                                                                                                                        495238

My, this farming program, theoretically there is no comparison. But practically people are accustomed in different way. To bring them to the program it will take some time. Otherwise my program is assured happiness, happiness assurance, if they get... Have your own food grown. Keep cows. Have your own crops. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That goes for all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Don't go to the city. That is my determination. The hellish city. In city nobody has got the opportunity for living in such comfortable place. It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy that we have got.

                                                                                                                                                                        495116

Prabhupāda: Hm. Vaiṣṇava-aparādha. The weak and the fools, they will be victimized. What can be done? Tīrtha-guru, the pāṇòā is accepted tīrtha-guru... That... But he takes to Jagannātha temple and other holy places, gives him instruction about the holy places and so on, so on, shelter, food, in this way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. There is such a thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am unknown, so he helps me in every respect. So Vaiṣṇava accepts everyone as guru, śikṣā-guru, dīkṣā-guru, then tīrtha-guru. This is no harm. But what is this rascal, "No, no, you cannot sit down here. You take the flag and pay me hundred rupees?" if you are so rascal, who can save you?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tīrtha-goru.

Prabhupāda: Tīrtha-goru, that is called. That risk is there because in India there are so many places, holy places. If you are not expert, you'll be victimized.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about this svarūpa-siddhi?

Prabhupāda: Svarūpa-siddhi, that is bogus. Svarūpa-siddhi is not that you do all nonsense things and svarūpa-siddhi... Svarūpa-siddhi means when he is actually liberated, he understands what is his relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is svarūpa-siddhi. Sākhya... So that is far away. Unless... If he's such a fool, then where is svarūpa-siddhi?

 

Room Conversation                                      April 28, 1977, Bombay                                                             495323

Prabhupāda: Niṣkiïcanasya. One who has decided that "This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer." Body means... Those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them. One who has the tendency to enjoy this material world, and they are taking advantage of God, "Give me good wife, give me good work, good meal, good enjoyment," they are not in the bhakti line. They are in the very nascent stage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nescient stage?

Prabhupāda: Lower stage. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam. That... There is one verse written by Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. What page I don't... Śikṣārtham. The bhakti-yoga, nija-bhakti-yoga... Bhakti-yoga means devotion to Kṛṣṇa. And that is vairāgya-vidyā, how to learn, renounce this world. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave up His gṛhastha life? He's the same person. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up their ministership? By their personal behavior they are showing this is not required. This is vairāgya-vidyā. So under the circumstances, those who have no vairāgya, they cannot live in the temple. They are taking advantage of the temple facilities for their sense enjoyment. Do you understand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I do.

Prabhupāda: So that should be stopped. So to live with wife, together as a gṛhastha, and enjoy gṛhastha life, at the same time to live in temple, this should be discouraged. Temple is meant for brahmacārī and sannyāsī, our, mainly, not for gṛhastha, because they have got inclination to enjoy. To live with wife means enjoyment. They'll have sex. This should be discouraged. But one who is absolutely required, they also cannot be allowed to live together. It is badly done(?). Suppose if one is gṛhastha, he is in devotional service, but he has no money to look after his wife. In that case the wife can live in the temple but separately with women, not together. Together living is very disturbing. It is not at all recommended. Give this point. At least, this should not be encouraged.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally in our temples, within the temple building no gṛhasthas live together, but in the temple compound, that is to say, around the temple, there may be other buildings. There they live together. But it's...

Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking, within the temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think practically all over the society that has been stopped, the gṛhastha living together with wife. I don't think there's any case like that. But in the adjoining buildings they might be...

Prabhupāda: Adjoining buildings... But the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life. That is same thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally the temples are providing them with apartments, like that.

Prabhupāda: But that is temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just like we have got so many tenants. They are living in their own. But they have no connection with the temple, neither the temple is paying them or... No, they are earning their own way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, if the temple provides an apartment, it's the same as paying a salary.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, giving an apartment is the same thing as providing a salary.

Prabhupāda: All right, apartment can be... But what is this? They are given high salary. Because his service is essential--"All right, you take apartment."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not...

Prabhupāda: You take prasādam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairāgya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even if you don't give a salary, if you give an apartment and you give food and you give all these other things for someone to maintain his household life...

Prabhupāda: Because his service is essential.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that has to be determined very strictly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Whether his service is absolutely required? So you give him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the factor. That point must be clearly acknowledged.

Prabhupāda: Hm hm. So he's trying to practice... Because sevonmukhe, if he gives service, then gradually he'll renounce. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. God realization means service. The more you give service to the Lord, the more you become advanced in devotional... So one who is giving service, dedicated life, so maybe... But no salary. They may live in the temple, woman separate, man separate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're... But the actual thing is that they're being, living together in an apartment, and the temple is paying for that apartment. They're not living separately in the temple. They're being...

Prabhupāda: That is to be discouraged. What do you think?

Girirāja: I agree.

Prabhupāda: In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. In the name of Vaiṣṇavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment. This is not good, not at all. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vairāgya should be cultivated.

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says clearly that niṣkiïcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he's disgusted with this material world. For him, bhagavad-bhajana. Just like if I become disgusted with something, I require some change, similarly, bhagavad-bhajana is for him who is absolutely disgusted with this material world. And anyone who has got little interest in material enjoyment, he's not fit for bhagavad-bhajana. He'll have to accept again this material body, either he becomes Brahmā or becomes an ant in the stool, according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha-upapattaye. He'll have to develop certain type of body according to his desire of enjoyment. This is nature's law. Then where is the question of going back to home, back to Godhead? Why so many varieties of life? There is Brahmā, and there is ant in the stool. So vairāgya-vidyā-nija... Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. And vairāgyam means jïānam ca. When one is in full knowledge that "To remain in this material world is useless for me"--jïānam--"I am simply wasting my time by repetition of birth and death," then he can have vairāgya. "Stop this!" If this sense is not awakened, there is no bhakti. It is not so easy. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāìkṣati. That is vairāgya. So vairāgya-vidyā... Otherwise why big, big persons, they renounced everything? Bharata Mahārāja, young man, the emperor of the whole world, gave up everything. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally teaches, young man, good, beautiful wife, young wife, so affectionate mother, so much honor in the society, Nimāi Paṇòita, so beautiful body... Tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm. Surepsita. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's position was, even the demigods, they desired such family life. But He still gave up. That is teaching. Therefore Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya says, vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhak..., śikṣārtham: "to teach others." He understood that in order to teach others vairāgya-vidyā... He is the Supreme Person. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-śikṣārtham ekaḥ purāṇa-puruṣaḥ: "That He was, Supreme Lord. Now He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya."Śarīra-dhārī: "He has accepted one body as Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." So these things should be stopped, that they should live comfortably with husband and wife, children, and take salary from the... You decide. This is not to our... Besides that, in our BBT it is clearly written that "Fifty percent for printing book, and fifty percent for..." So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, "Welcome." Otherwise we don't require. At least they should not be given any salary. That is very bad. This is against principle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was reading the life sketch of Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. He always maintained a government service job, and still...

Prabhupāda: He gave so much service to Kṛṣṇa. From his family maintenance... He could have renounced, but he said that the family has to be maintained. So he... Markaṭa-vairāgya. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura was against giving sannyāsa. He didn't like these bābājīs. They were markaṭa-vairāgya, superficially... Markaṭa-vairāgya means monkey. They live naked, eat fruits, live in the jungle. That is vairāgya. But three dozen wives. Markaṭa-vairāgya. Markaṭa means monkey. Superficially vairāgya, nāgā-bābā. They eat vegetables, fruits, live in the jungle, no house, or, all, everything like vairāgya. But sex. We have... I have seen in Vṛndāvana. They have got a party, each monkey, women's party, and the male will come to any female, "Now ready," "Enter." You can see it. Markaṭa-vairāgya nāhi paraloka dasaya(?).So this should not be encouraged. Then gradually it will deteriorate into...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christians had that happen to them.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christian religion had that deterioration. Everything deteriorated more and more into sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Because they have no valid philosophy. It is simply official. They have nothing, no knowledge, no nothing, simply that dress and cloth. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like the original... When Jesus was there and he had twelve disciples, they simply gave up everything and traveled with him and tried to preach. So they were renunciates, living simply whatever they could take, nothing more, and devoting their lives to God. But the followers later on, more and more they added the degree of sense gratification, till now you can't see any renunciation at all within their order.

Prabhupāda: No, they are drinking. They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosex, giving man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything nonsense.

Girirāja: Actually their leader...

Prabhupāda: And they are concluding that they cannot stop committing sins and Jesus Christ will take account for them. Therefore it is very good religion, that "We can do whatever nonsense we like, and if we keep our faith in Jesus Christ, then we are saved." Pāpa-buddhiḥ, nāmno balād pāpa-buddhiḥ. Great offenders. So what news?

Girirāja: Well, the reason I came up is I'm going to try to phone Mr. Rajda now.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's suggesting that if the Prime Minister can't give that much time, whether you would go to see him? Actually, if you give the idea that Prabhupāda wants to see him in the morning hours...

Girirāja: Yeah, I'm going to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, if he says that that's not possible...

Prabhupāda: That is not respectful.

Girirāja: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all respectful.

Prabhupāda: Then he does not know how to honor a saintly person. It is useless to meet him. If he has no respect for saintly person, if he thinks greater than saintly person, then he's useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then nothing will come of it, anyway. And if we give this opportunity, that he come in the morning, if he...

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that, if he has got that sense, that "I am very big man, so everyone should come here," he's useless. We cannot do anything with him.

Girirāja: That's what I thought.

Prabhupāda: Very beginning is...

Girirāja: On the wrong foot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he has to come to see you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh, there's so many examples in the śāstra of great personalities.

Prabhupāda: Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu refused to see, what to speak of going there.

Girirāja: I agree with you.

Prabhupāda: Even big, big kings, Akbar, Mansingh, they used to, used to come to Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Girirāja: No, I agree with you completely.

Prabhupāda: Did... He demanded like that?

Girirāja: No. When I spoke to Mr. Rajda I said that the Prime Minister should come here, and Mr. Rajda agreed. But just now, when I... I just spoke to Gopāla. I was on my way to make the call. So he said that I should just ask you about this.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Girirāja: I was just going to phone, and I mentioned to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu that I was going to make this call. So I said that, you know, the Prime Minister was going to be coming here, so he... And I said that I also, in the call I wanted to make that very clear so there was no mistake. And he said that, well, he might be too busy to come here and that he...

Prabhupāda: Gopāla said.

Girirāja: Yeah. So I thought it would be better just to...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of.

Girirāja: Yeah. No, I agree completely. I mean, you're millions and billions of times greater than anyone, so there's no question...

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, if one has no proper respect for a saintly person, he's useless man. You cannot have any benefit. Or neither he can derive any benefit.

Girirāja: Yeah.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From all sides.

Girirāja: Because he'll think he has nothing to learn, that he is already in the best position.

Prabhupāda: And we don't require any from, anything from them, but for the whole human society's welfare we can suggest him, "Do like this." That is our... But we don't require anything from them.

Girirāja: I know that. This is your...

Prabhupāda: Of course, sometimes we are in difficulty. We ask them something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that's their duty, anyway. Kṣatriyas should provide protection for the saintly person.

Girirāja: Anyway, our real protector is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: He has... Because we've seen so many difficulties. Nobody could see any solution, but...

Prabhupāda: That one Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotee was ordered to be hanged.

Girirāja: I didn't know that.

Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha Paṭṭanāyaka.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: All the devotees approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu, thinking that "He must... The king will excuse him." He never agreed. "Oh, I cannot do that. If he has done something wrong, then let him..." Of course, he was saved and protected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu's good wish, but He never agreed. These are some of the examples that... Simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. But if they are actually respectful, we can ask them. There is... But if it is difficult job... Viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanām atha yoṣit... We cannot keep so strictly, but these are the principles taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Girirāja: So that principle about living together and salary...

Prabhupāda: That is...

Girirāja: That is meant to apply everywhere in the society.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is exploitation of the society.

Girirāja: I know. Since I've been preaching more, I've been able to see how much labor and endeavor is going in just to maintain so many idle people. I know you've been saying this for a long time, and now, you know, I feel the strength to actually change that, that only those who are really sincere workers can stay.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise no need. We need their service, but not by being salaried. That is not good. (end)

 

Conversation (2): Animals' Expertise                April 28, 1977, Bombay                                                      495281

Prabhupāda: (referring to ants) Just see. One second, thousands came.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: How quickly they come! Just see. And wherefrom they get out of?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, how do they find out about it? That's what I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: That they know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were all over, and the medicine was up here.

Prabhupāda: Come just like magic, they come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, how is it? I can't understand it. I really don't understand it.

Girirāja: Acintya-śakti.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It must be Supersoul telling them...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...that there's something here. Do they smell it? No.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they are also living entities like us. Whenever there is some sense of enjoyment, they flock together.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: They are expert more than us. You cannot go. Suppose there is one lakh of rupees downstairs. You can get it. You cannot go in one minute. They can do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they're better than us?

Prabhupāda: They're expert. Suppose if I, if somebody informs that "In the corner of the temple there is one lakh of rupees. Somebody has left," you cannot go in one minute. It will take at least ten minutes. But here it is kept--immediately. So how much expert they are. Just imagine. So why you are so proud that you are scientist, you are expert? You nothing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here they come again.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working under nature's law. They are working under nature's law in such a way. You cannot do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just see. They are already in it again.

Prabhupāda: There are many, many experts from the lower-grade creatures. Ant hill. You are spending so much money for skyscraper building. The ant, they construct big hill as their residential quarters. Where they get their food? Where they get their...? But they are living. This is nature's study. Now you can... So what is this? Āhāra-nidrā. For eating. So for these four principles--eating, sleeping, sex, and defense--everyone knows. But the human society, they have made it a problem. These small ants, they also require those things, but they have no problem. For defense they don't require atomic weapon. They know in their own way how to defend. Cats, dogs, animals--everyone knows. Struggling. Our human society, advanced, means they are perplexed with these problems. The human life was meant for self-realization. That problem left, they have created some problems which the animals can solve in their own way. This is the present society. This political struggle and..., what is their aim, objective? To solve these problems. Nothing more. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma, indriya-prītaye, these four principles, sense gratification. The ant is also struggling. They wanted to enjoy the little sugar in the here. We have driven him. That's a problem. They have to find out somewhere else.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still they're...

Prabhupāda: Expecting. Hope against hope. This is struggle. That they do not see. They do... We have got this valuable life. What we are doing? We are doing the same thing as the small ants do. So what is the difference between that life and this life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes that "This is not your business. Your business is to surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya. That will be solved automatically. But they don't. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and apply it for solving these problems. Gandhi and Bhagavad-gītā--what is that? Political struggle. Such a rascal. And he's leader? He does not know what is the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. Has Kṛṣṇa come down to speak how to defend, how to eat, how to sleep? Is there any statement there? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Solve this problem. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. And who, nonsense, understands this? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. This teaching... This is a teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. And they are taking Bhagavad-gītā for solving these problems. That's all. Ants' struggle. Violence, nonviolence and... So such big, big rascals are guiding us. What benefit they have given? And they are praised. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ... He's an animal, and he's praised by some small animals. That's all. This is their position. They are not actual leader. They are animals, but because we are small animals, we are praising. So it is very difficult to understand our philosophy, but still, we have to preach. That is our mission. A little drop, maybe like a film or less than that... Still, they are... And again, when you cleanse this, you kill them--you become implicated. You have killed. You have to suffer. They are disturbing; still, you cannot kill them. This is your position. But people are with Flit (a bug killer) killing thousands of mosquitoes and flies, becoming implicated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't kill them. What about if they're biting you, right in the process of biting you?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing a mosquito is biting you and sucking the blood.

Prabhupāda: Yes, when they bite, you can kill, according to laws of nature. But on the whole, you cannot kill.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot invent means...

Prabhupāda: Therefore mosquito curtain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prevention.

Prabhupāda: Prevention is better than cure. They are meant for that purpose. God has made. So instead of killing them, you protect your... But if you are in the service of the Lord, you are not responsible.

 

 

Room Conversation                                       April 29, 1977, Bombay                                                            495441

Prabhupāda: It is luxurious. (break) ...the āṭā dough. So after it is cooked... They have got ghee. That ball soaked in ghee and the òāl, it is so nice when taken. That is called baṭī. Very quickly made. And after eating, with that ash the two or three utensils, mean the loṭā and the plate, they'll cleanse it very nice and walk away. And that food is sufficient for twenty-four hours. Within twenty-four hours he will not be hungry and feel very strong. The two things. And you can cook anywhere without any difficulty. In India, especially in village, you can get so many dried cow dung. So fuel is ready. The āṭā is packed up. And ghee in a pot. That's all. How simple life. Simply they'll sit down where there is water, and they'll take water. Then everything is arranged. No hotel. Or even there is no āṭā, they keep their own ghee, homemade, pure. Āṭā can be purchased anywhere in the village. There is no need of carrying āṭā. So this preparation for tourists... Tourists, Indian tourists, means going to some holy place. They have no other sightseeing, no program. All villagers, they are still... The pilgrimage in holy places, now no educated man goes. Very rarely. All these villagers by thousands... They... You see this Tirupati, Tirumala. All the contribution by the villagers. By their hard-earned money they keep something for going. You have seen Tirupati, Tirumal...? Standing for hours to contribute in a line. Hundreds of people. They'll come, contribute something. Then they'll shave their head, see the Deity, have some bath in the adjoining lake. Then they'll take prasādam. That is very big tank. Everywhere. In India, wherever some famous temple is there, there is a tank. Now the haircutting, that lakhs of rupees are sold to foreign countries is hair. Heaps. These managers, they are selling the hairs. Very big business. The foreign countries, the black hair, they purchase it at good price for making wig. (pause) So that is written nice. He wanted to criticize me, but he could not do it very strongly. He did not like the idea that I am sticking to Bhagavad-gītā. That was his... But it has been shown that our sticking to Bhagavad-gītā, that is our mission. And it is a science. Why he called sectarian? When Kṛṣṇa says anything, that is science. "Two plus two equal to four" is acceptable by everyone. Why it is sect...? Actually all religion is going on under the plea, "We believe." What is this nonsense, "We believe"? If you believe "Two plus two equal to five," will it be correct? Their religion is "We believe." So our Bhagavad-gītā is not like that. It is fact. That is the difference. (break) ...of him. I was staying there in one big room. Crazy. Alone I am.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He had tried to attack you?

Prabhupāda: No, he couldn't act. Gone crazy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taking LSD.

Prabhupāda: So immediately I transferred myself to Jergens, keeping my goods at Mukunda's place, Michael. Then I searched out that 26 Second Avenue. From going to 26 Second Avenue taking this risk of two hundred dollars, then I became little relieved. Before that, I was simply vagabond. That was the first shelter. Then this Kīrtanānanda, Hayagrīva, Satsvarūpa, Umāpati, they guided. Brahmānanda. Some other boys also came, and they left.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stryadhīśa.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Stryadhīśa. So after getting that shelter, I began to grow. Everything was very precarious condition--vagabond. I was selling some books. I thought that "This boy will be trained up" when I got that place. He invited me to "Come to my loft." It was very big loft. I was holding class, collecting ten dollars. Then he was not paying rent. He gave me the charge of paying rent. So Kṛṣṇa was giving by collecting. It was on the top. Still, people were coming. Great story. Never mind. Now we... From my part, whatever is possible. Now you take care. That is my request. Don't spoil it. Now it is up to you. My, this ailment... I can pass away at any moment. My health is not good. I am old man. It is not surprising. Now you GBC, young boys, all, American, expert, you have got all intelligence, resources, so don't spoil. Let the movements go forward more and more. Now you have got nice places, filled with devotees. Don't be anxious for me. That, Kṛṣṇa will take. And even if I go, where is the harm? Old man. I have given my ideas and direction in my books. People appreciate. I think from my side I have done everything. Is it not? Do you think or not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you have done everything.

Prabhupāda: Hm? So you are young men, American boys.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still, we want the whole Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That will be done. Even it is not fulfilled, so there is no harm. But don't send me, in any case, in hospital. Now I am pointing out this. They are useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no doubt that you know your body a lot better than they could ever know it. You've lived with it for so many years. They just take somebody's body and they make so many...

Prabhupāda: Now it is a fact, the Yaso (Israel?) Hospital failure. (break) So many temples. I have given my program how to manage it. Now you see. That is my anxiety, that there may not be any discrepancies or slackness. Am I right or wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So far money is here, scattered, you can take charge and do the needful. I kept some money here, there, just to... But now you can take charge of the all money, one or two or three of you, and let me remain free from all management. And only request is, don't spoil it. I sometimes chastise everyone that may not be spoiled. You are taking care of everything, but still more careful. I can live without any food, simply taking these fruits. There is no difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, there are people who do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we don't care for the lunch. What is the... I am sitting idly. I haven't got to work hard. I don't require food, little fruits even. Those who are working, they require food to get strength, but I am sitting idly, and brain is working. So so far my physical necessity, there is no necessity of food. But I may not so depend on that going to the bath, toilet. I require... And that is also not required. There are many persons. That Rajda... I... He was also... I have seen many men. For rising up, they require help.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's normal in old age. That's not unusual.

Prabhupāda: I can walk. There is no difficulty. But getting up... I can... If I try, I can get up also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you would do it even in Māyāpura. Sometimes you would ring the bell and no one came. You'd get up yourself.

Prabhupāda: That is also not difficult.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But why should you take that risk?

Prabhupāda: No, I shall not. I fell down...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: ...in Calcutta. That is bathroom, very slippery. Anyway, why shall I take the risk?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we don't want that.

Prabhupāda: So hold meeting daily and chalk out program. Do very diligently everything so I can see that things are going on nicely without my managerial interference. That will make me happy. And I'll go on writing. There is... (pause) You are feeling all right?

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. I was just thinking of... When you were speaking about not eating... We take pleasure in watching you eat. It is our pleasure to see you eat and enjoy the prasādam. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...mentally to keep the brain, little fruit, milk, is sufficient. So I may live only on fruit or milk. There is no difficulty. What is the use of taking cāpāṭis and rice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, when you have a taste for it, then you should take.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practice. As food value, fruits and milk is sufficient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Habit is there also.

Prabhupāda: All the great saintly persons in India, they used to live in forest. What food? Only fruits and milk. Sometimes they use to take grains. Otherwise milk and... Simple milk is all food, cow's milk. I want to take cow's milk. This is all rubbish.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Really?

Prabhupāda: Little cow's milk twice.

                                                                                                                                                                        495478

Prabhupāda: So far gurukula is concerned, that also, I have given program. They have given the name of "girls." We are not going to do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that?

Prabhupāda: Girls. Boys and girls. That is dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula.

Prabhupāda: In that article.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, oh, oh.

Prabhupāda: Girls should be completely separated from the very beginning. They are very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we're... I thought there were girls in Vṛndāvana now. They said that they're going to have the girls' gurukula behind the boys' gurukula. Gopāla was talking about that.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No girls.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be in another city or somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be taught how to sweep, how to stitch...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Clean.

Prabhupāda: ...clean, cook, to be faithful to the husband.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't require a big school.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is mistake. They should be taught how to become obedient to the husband.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you won't learn that in school.

Prabhupāda: Little education, they can...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That they can get at home also.

Prabhupāda: They should be stopped, this practice of prostitution. This is a very bad system in Europe and America. The boys and girls, they are educated--coeducation. From the very beginning of their life they become prostitutes. And they encourage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: They distribute pills. I have seen the boys and girls dancing together, embracing, in the school film. That ruins the career. Both of them are ruined. That is very regrettable. Then you shall require this sterilization, pills, another big program. They are creating animal civilization, and when the animals are disturbing, they are trying to find out some other means. This is their program. First of all create animals. Then, when the animals behave like animals, then another program. Why do you create animal? Woman brahmacāriṇī, this is artificial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our centers, though, there are so many brahmacāriṇīs, and even sometimes they're encouraged to remain brahmacāriṇī.

Prabhupāda: That they cannot. As soon as they will find opportunity, they will become vyabhicāriṇī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll become what?

Prabhupāda: Vyabhicāriṇī. For woman, protection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you don't advocate this remaining sing..., these women remaining brahmacāriṇīs.

Prabhupāda: Therefore polygamy was allowed. Let them be taken care of, one husband, three wives. Therefore the kṣatriyas were taking hundreds of women. They had money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṣatriyas, yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like we see, when Devakī was married, so many Devakī's young friends also went. They were taken shelter. The woman population is always bigger. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      April 30, 1977, Bombay                                                             495690

Prabhupāda: Women should be taken care of--as daughter, as wife, as mother, bas. No freedom. Then prostitution. Then spoiled the whole thing. Unwanted children, contraceptive, abortion. Very dangerous. In our society there are girls. They should live separately. They should be given full engagement, taken care of. No mixing. Then it will spoil. Both of them will be... We see big, big workers, sannyāsīs. (Name withheld) fell victim. The example is given: fire and butter. (laughs) You cannot say the butter will not melt even in fire. Woman is like fire, and man is like butter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The butter should be kept cool.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In a cool refrigerator, cool-headed. As soon as come in contact with the fire, agitate. The example is given. In Indian... Up to our time restriction was very strict. Now it is slackened.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now you see boys and girls freely mixing here, in India.

Prabhupāda: Without coeducation there is no college.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In American universities they have co-living. The bathrooms are the same bathroom now. They don't even have men's bathroom and women's toilet.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's considered advancement, to come to the point of being animals here.

Prabhupāda: So our gurukula should be ideal. Not all these boys... You should take care of these things from the very beginning--if you want actually spiritual life. If you want to progress like animals, that is different thing, as the whole world is doing. We want to maintain an ideal institution. People may see. In Christian idea also, the nuns were separate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays the nuns, every... Twice a week they get their hair set. They wear miniskirt now.

Prabhupāda: And so many scandal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not strict anymore. Priests are smoking cigarettes, watching television.

Prabhupāda: If there is no training, naturally it will deteriorate.

                                                                                                                                                                        495722

Prabhupāda: No, you also understand now that charge, how it is a fact. The fact is, as it is in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to change your body. Then, if you have to change your body, then where is the question of nationalism? The first thing is mistake. And the nationalist leader, they are taking Bhagavad-gītā and jumping like dog on nationalism. Where is the question of nationalism? Answer me. Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no real question because...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no real question because...

Prabhupāda: So why they are so much busy in solving the problems of nationalism?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they are identifying themselves with their bodies.

Prabhupāda: That means ignorance, rascals. They are busy with something which is not his business. Then next question will be: then what is his business? If they actually read Bhagavad-gītā, his business is that to find out: "If I am going to change my body, what I am going to be?" Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. The body, after being finished, this body, I am not dead. I am going to change another body. So is it not my duty? Just like if I go somewhere, you see how that place, how it will be suitable for me, how I shall live there. Is it not duty? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. I am not going to die. That, if I leave this compartment, I'm not going to die. I'll accept another compartment. But shall I not see what kind of compartment will be, whether it is better than this or inferior than this? Is it not my duty? That is my real problem. Or the actual problem is that if I am eternal, why I shall change body now and then? This is my problem. And Kṛṣṇa says that "If anyone does not take up My instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, then he does not get Me, and the result is that he'll again turn to this change of body, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartma..." So they are not careful about these things, so what do they understand about Bhagavad-gītā? The real problem they do not touch. And the body will change, and he'll live in India or in America, say, for fifty years. He's busy. That is cats, just like these cats and dogs at night. Nobody has given him charge, but he is thinking "I am in charge of the road. Why this put-put motorcar, you have come here? Go on. Go on. Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" But who has given him charge? But he's starving, and people are throwing stone upon him, but he's thinking "I am in charge of this business. Why at night this car has come?" Dog mentality. Is it not exactly like the dog? He's disturbing all others--"Gow, gow! Gow, gow, gow!"--but he's thinking that "I am in charge." Is it not dog dancing, these politicians, politics? Who cares for you? Gandhi or there, he has gone. Does it mean the world activities stop? Churchill was there. He has gone. Hitler was there. They are coming and going like so many insects. Napoleon was there. Who cares for them? We are licking up their so-called activities: "Oh, Napoleon was so great. Gandhi was so great." And what he has done? The dog dancing. Who can understand that unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious? What he has done actually? Has he stopped death? No. Population, birth, sterilization... Will they be able to stop it? Simply manufacturing concoction and jumping like a... That's all. And if you say the real thing, upadeṣo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye, they'll become angry.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                  May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh                                                           496039

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows God. The whole Christian world, they do not know what is God. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. And they are these ajānantaḥ, must fall down. Patanti te. The very word is "falldown." Without any understanding of God, religion means falldown. Everyone has fallen down. So many religions... Now these Arya-samajis...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's not very big.

Prabhupāda: Who cares for them? For some time they can do, jumping. It will not stay. But the Vaiṣṇava religion is going on. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. As many... So we may take it since the time of Kṛṣṇa, five thousand years, this has been going on, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, Deity worship, going on.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I saw in Hrishikesh. They have...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The dictaphone fell over.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a lot of big statues displaying Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, dioramas. I just saw.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Trivikrama: So many places along the way. From the very birth, then all the activities, Aghāsura demon, all of them, all of them.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even though it's Māyāvādī, still, they are displaying Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Gītā ślokas are on the walls everywhere.

Trivikrama: Yes. It seems they can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Trivikrama: They can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. They can cheat, but with Gītā. They are like Gandhi. He cheated with a Gītā, in the name of Gītā. Even they cannot cheat with Gītā. Bhaja... What is that, Gītā-pravacana?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Gītā...

Prabhupāda: That is another cheating.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You told them in that meeting we had in Warda. You were very bold. You said, "Unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa and understand Kṛṣṇa, it's all useless." There is one very great yogic teacher in India like Maharishi Yogi called Brahmacari Virendra or something like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhirendra Brahma... Prabhupāda was reading about him this morning in the newspaper.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you were? Oh, with that case...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has been following.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dhirendra Brahmacari.

Trivikrama: Who was caught with the woman.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The so-called yogis...

Prabhupāda: All these yogis... They get cheap food, cheap women. That's all. And debauched women, in Hindu society, they cannot mix with other men, take advantage of these yogis, swamis and cheaters. Just becoming so-called devotees, they have sex attraction.(?) From both sides. Sex... Sex impulse is so strong that in different ways it should be taken, as a yogi, as a swami, as a gṛhastha, as a debauch, as a loafer. All... The central point is sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. These asses...

Trivikrama: Working so hard.

Prabhupāda: Working so hard and then sex, and the female kicks on the face. They enjoy, "Ah." You have seen this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana I used to watch them.

Prabhupāda: "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" But still, he goes. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. It begins with kicking. The cats also, they (makes cat noise:) "Eeeyow!" They have come for sex, but the female cat will show some prestige and... Then sex. If she does not like, why she has come? (laughter) But they show some prestigious position. Then (makes cat noise:) "Eeyenh!" This is the central point of material happiness. Therefore we cannot allow within our temples now such sex. That is not possible. We are condemning the sex life, and we cannot accommodate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That boy who was speaking to you that evening quoted that Kṛṣṇa says, kāmo 'smi bhāratarṣabha.

Prabhupāda: Kāmo 'smi, that should be. That kāma is not that, that whenever they like, have sex and then go away. That is his kāma . Once you have sex life and the woman first of all debauches like... You have to make it public that "I am going to have garbhādhāna-saṁskāra." It is not a secret thing. It is a ceremony. And then, when she is pregnant, no more sex. No more sex means so long the child is there, ten months, and unless the child is grown up at least six months, no sex. That means once you have sex and then abstain for sixteen months. You know what is that dharma? So who is such a foolish man that for once having sex and then abstaining...? Therefore those who could not abstain, they used to keep many wives.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean, what is the purpose of... A man is foolish because he's attracted by sex life, but even in marriage...

Prabhupāda: It is foolish, undoubtedly, but there is some concession. But this concession is so restriction that he'll become intelligent, that "What is the use of this concession?" Loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā nityā hi jantoḥ. It is not encouragement. The so much restriction means to convince him indirectly that "This is nonsense. Better you give it up." Otherwise why restriction? In other things... Suppose eating bhagavat-prasādam. There is no such restriction...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Once every six...

Prabhupāda: ...that "Once you eat and then do not eat for sixteen months." Is there any such restriction? This is encouraged.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But as soon as there is restriction, that means, "Don't do it." Otherwise naturally they have got sex desire. What is the use of giving shastric injunction? That means to control him. The meat-eating... So everyone has got tendency to eat meat, but why śāstra should agree? Restriction means stop. The government's opening liquor shop--so much restriction in a heavy duty. The government charges excise duty. The liquor is produced, utmost, one rupee, eight annas, per gallon. This I know. I know. And government charges excise duty, sixty rupees. So it becomes sixty-one rupees spoiled. Then they have got to make profit. Huge profit government... They haven't got to do anything. The liquor manufacturer, he has to maintain the establishment, and everything he has to do. But when the actual liquor comes, it is there. This is the working system. The excise inspector is there. So unless the... When he takes liquor out of stock, that excise inspector shall come. He has his own key, just like bank, such custody. So in this way... And you have to pay duty first. Suppose stock is there, liquor, hundred gallons, say, thousand gallons. If you want to take ten gallons, so the excise inspector will see whether you have paid duty for hundred gallons. Then you'll be allowed to. So government, for nothing, has... They make huge profit. This is Kali-yuga government. They think that "To condone these are very common practice. Let them be drunk. Let them drink." They encourage them. And government means big ministers, secretaries. They get the profit and divide amongst themselves. So who cares for public? Similarly cloth. What is the cost of one...? One rupee per pound. But if you weigh one cloth, what is the weight? Not even one pound. And they charge twenty rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Duty.

Prabhupāda: Duty, profit, so on, so on. And all these big, big millionaires, they are exacting money from the poor like that, and when they have got money, they spend little for daridra-nārāyaṇa. "Oh, very big man." And our program? Why you making daridra? Daridra? Our policy is this, that "Why should you make him daridra?" First of all make him daridra, and then take credit--"daridra-nārāyaṇa"? Just see how cheating is going on. But we are projecting this path for them: let them remain in their home, produce their own food only and cloth and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our policy. Our policy means Kṛṣṇa's policy. Let them have sufficiently to eat, and they'll be all satisfied. If the mind is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then they don't want anything, either liquor or meat or anything. No. This is the advantage. And this is not social... What is that? That first of all drag him from the innocent life of village and engage him in the factory in the hope of getting more money, and then he's habituated to liquor. When he cannot pay, they purchase this poison and die.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Like rats(?). Is that progress like that? Keep them daridra forever and take credit--"daridra-nārāyaṇa." Just see. Simply bluffing and cheating.

Trivikrama: Misdirected society. Misdirected. So how will we change?

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa con... (break)

 

Evening Darsan                                             May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh                                                           496306

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Today you are European. Tomorrow you become Indian. And today you are man; tomorrow you become a dog. If you have got love for your country, but your work is doggish, then you become a dog. And who cares for the "national" dog? The street dog and the... At night he takes charge of the street. Nobody has appointed him, but he takes charge, and whole night: "Gow! Gow!" If somebody, new man, enters the neighborhood, "I am in charge." You see? "Why you have entered?" So this is going on. "I am leader of this country." So what is this civilization? Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the leader." He says, bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "I am the leader. I am the friend, well-wisher of everyone." And if a dog says, "I am the leader. I am the well-wisher," so which way we shall go? I shall accept the dog as leader and well-wisher or Kṛṣṇa? Boliye. A barking dog or Kṛṣṇa?

Indian man (2): Naturally Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And He says, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "I can adjust things." So we are not taking. (Hindi) From all angles of vision, if you study Bhagavad-gītā, everything is perfectly there.And if you take it seriously, you become happy in this life and dehāntare. If you simply take, accept Kṛṣṇa as He says, then what is result? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Punar janma, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, but one who has understood Kṛṣṇa perfectly--it is not possible to understand Him, but as far as possible, as far as our knowledge is concerned--if we understand Kṛṣṇa, then immediate result is that we are freed from the bondage of janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So that is the real problem. We are solving problems, this problem, that problem, that... They are not problems. That is natural in this material world. Just like this fly is disturbing. This is not a problem because the fly is made for that purpose. How... You cannot stop him. You can protect yourself. It is not possible to stop him. This is not problem, how to drive away the fly. The real problem, Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, that you are in the cycle of birth, death... Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You get another life and you suffer. Again you get another life. This is your problem. So that problem, Kṛṣṇa says, that "You can solve it. Simply try to understand Me." Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā deham. That is our business. But we are being deviated from the real business, and we are being engaged in so-called this ism, that ism, that ism. This is spoiling the whole thing.

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā

dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

This life, this human form of life, is meant for understanding the real problem of life and to solve it. This is the opportunity. And Kṛṣṇa personally coming to instruct you, "You solve in this way." But we are so doggish, we will not take. What can be done? Then become a dog. Nature's law, you work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. If you remain doggish--you do not become human being--then, all right, you become a dog next life. Tathā dehāntara-prā... Then take life of the street and "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. This... For this purpose we request every one of you that you study Bhagavad-gītā very seriously as it is, apply it in your practical life, and teach it to others. That is perfection. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... He says that "You become guru, everyone." (break) You simply repeat. Don't misinterpret. Boliye. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Every one of you become a guru, not a bluffer, but a guru, real guru. "How real guru? What can be done? I have no qualification." Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa: "You simply take the words of Kṛṣṇa and preach." Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. You simply repeat, "Sir, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being, God." What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no superior authority than Me." You simply say, "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority." That's all. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām... You preach, "Come here in the temple. See Kṛṣṇa's Deity and always think of Him." Where is the difficulty?

                                                                                                                                                                        496317

We have got Mahābhārata, there is not a single instance... We had very, very great, qualified women. But they were in charge of state...? Very, very qualified women. You know. Na svatantratām arhati, striyaḥ. For woman there is no independence. The Manu-saṁhitā. They must stay under father, under husband, or under elderly sons. Three stages. Kuntī...

Indian man (6): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) A young girl cannot go out without father's, mother's... She cannot mix with any other young man. Strictly prohibited. (Hindi) If you want to revive real Indian civilization or Vedic civilization for the good of the whole human society, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. There is no doubt.

 

Evening Darśan                                           May 12, 1977, Hrishikesh                                                           496506

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It will distribute India's glories. People will feel obliged to India, that "We have got this knowledge from India." Actually knowledge is here. There is no such knowledge all over the world.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

Paropakāra. India is meant for paropakāra. India is not meant for exploiting others. But unfortunately the knowledge is... Sarasvatī jïāna-khale yathā satī. We have got the store of knowledge, but we have kept it locked up, not distributed to the world. They are called jïāna-khala. One who has knowledge but he does not want to distribute it, that is, they are termed as jïāna-khala. So we should not be jïāna-khala. In India there is storehouse of spiritual knowledge, and every one of us should make our life successful by assimilating this knowledge and distribute all over the world. There is customer; there is appreciation. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (Hindi) Why you should be jïāna-khala? Na sādhu manye. Jïāna should be distributed. The modern scientists also, they have... If they have discovered something new, they go and distribute for the benefit of the whole human society. Unfortunately we are distorting the knowledge in Bhagavad-gītā, interpreting in a different way according to my whims, and spoiling my life and others'. This process should be stopped. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You'll be benefited; others... Don't distort. That is our duty.

Indian man (3): Sir, do you not consider it advisable to get the judgment that the Americans have translated into Indian so we can look?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... We require an expert lawyer. There are some technical terms. Ordinary man cannot translate. If amongst yourselves there is a lawyer, if he helps us translate, we can publish it. There are so many legal... The judgment is wonderful judgment.

Indian man (3): Historical judgment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was expecting to fight that case at least for some years, but by Kṛṣṇa's grace he has given on the first day the judgment.

Indian man (3): Was it argued on also?

Prabhupāda: No. Simply we presented our statement. I advised them that "You take my eighty-four books and present before the judge that 'Our statements are here. First of all you read these books. Then you give your judgment.' "

Indian man (3): Prabhupāda's judgment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has given him sense that from the ordinary statement he has understood the whole thing, and he has given judgment immediately. I never... This is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. He is everyone's heart, so He has dictated that "You give judgment like this." So he... Otherwise it was impossible. And that is... In many courts... We have been harassed in Australia, many, many, because they are afraid of... Now Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is advancing. The some... One politician has said that "This movement is increasing like epidemic. If we do not check it, within ten years they'll take our government." (laughter) Yes, in America one politician... So actually that is happening. In spite of so much obstacles, we are increasing. Our books are selling. They are advancing. We are getting more devotees. Our movement is not checked. It is... (break) But you do not know. We are dropping from the sky? Our main movement is Europe, America.

Indian man (3): Throughout the world over.

Prabhupāda: All over the world.

Indian man (3): No, all over the world I have heard about...

Prabhupāda: So all over the world does not include Europe?

Indian man (3): No, it does.

Prabhupāda: Then why you ask me? We have got in every country of Europe--England, Germany, France, Portugal, Spain, Rome, Sweden, everywhere.

German man: But the Pope is agreeing with you in Rome?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

German man: The Pope is agreeing?

Devotee (2): The Pope.

Prabhupāda: Pope.

German man: In Rome. He is agreeing with Hare Kṛṣṇa...?

Prabhupāda: But he agree or... Who cares for his agreement?

German man: With chanting and...

Prabhupāda: We don't care for anyone agrees or not. We push on. That's all. Do you think in India they agree Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person? Then? We don't care for them. We have to go forward. That is our business. If Kṛṣṇa agrees, that is all right. We don't care for anyone else, agrees or not agrees. If our master agrees--we are servant--that is our satis... We don't care for ordinary...

 

Evening Darśana                                          May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh                                                          496594

Prabhupāda: (break) You told me, from the siddhi...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone came this morning. He was asking that... He was hoping that because he had heard that you had some mystical powers, so he was hoping that you could help his situation by demonstrating some of these mystical powers.

Prabhupāda: Some magic. Our magic is already there. Throughout the whole world we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is not that magic? Foreign countries, foreign religion, and they are accepting Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is not that magic?

Indian man (1): It is.

Prabhupāda: And still more magic? The world is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Boliye?

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

He is yogi. There are many varieties of yogis. And Kṛṣṇa concludes, "Of all the yogis, big, big yogis, the person who is always remembering Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is first class." This is said by Kṛṣṇa, not by me. Therefore it is authorized statement. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all these mystic powers... They may be temporarily some magic, but Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always remembering Me," satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛòha-vratāḥ, "he is first-class yogi." So all these persons who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa according to the prescribed rules and regulations, without any offense... There are ten kinds of offenses. So in the beginning there may be offenses. It doesn't matter. It will be rectified. Offenseless chanting means mukti, and then pure chanting means love of Godhead. There are three stages. In the beginning, when one begins chanting, it is not pure. There are so many offenses. But chanting, chanting, the offenses become purified. Offenseless chanting is not purified completely, but it is offenseless. So offenseless chanting makes one liberated, and then pure chanting makes one lover of God. This is the process. So chanting is definite mystic power. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam: "By chanting, your heart becomes purified." Ceto-darpaṇa. We are suffering in this material world on account of... (background talking) (aside:) Ask him not to talk loudly. On account of impurities... (aside:) What is the use of talking? The first impurity is identifying... (aside:) Stop him. Don't talk at all.

Indian man (1): It is one gentle..., one person. He says, "I am Bengali." And he has got some trouble. He was told that "If you have got any physical trouble, go to the medical practitioners."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): "If you have got any spiritual, then you can stay." He is continuing. That is all.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't talk. Why you are talking? So our real trouble is that we have become conditioned by the material identification, "I am this body." Everyone is thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," everything, identification with the body. That is the dirty thing. So one has to purify, that "I am neither American, neither Indian, nor brāhmaṇa, or so many designations." Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. That is mukti, when you don't identify with this material body. And so long you identify with this material body, either you become a sannyāsī with some beard or a gṛhastha without some beard, the same thing, identifying with the body. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam means to become free from the bodily designation. And śāstra says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. This body is composition of three dhātu, kapha, pitta, vāyu, according to Āyur Veda; and according to medical science, it is skin and then muscle, blood, bone, and marrow, stool, urine, those, combination. So I am not this combination of stool, bone, skin, blood. But people are taking that. When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe. Dehinaḥ, dehī. Dehinaḥ and deha. So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system. So... System of purification, how to become designationless. And if we keep the designation, then, śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ: "One who keeps the bodily designation, he's no better than the cows and the asses, animal." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that... Caitanya Mahā... This is the shastric, Vedic culture, that we have to purify ourselves from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that "I am this"--"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," "I am gṛhastha," "I am white," "I am black." These are the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. This chanting and hearing is puṇya-śravaṇa. If you do not know anything about, if you simply chant and hear, you become purified, puṇya, because on account of dirty things, impious life, you have become covered by different bodies. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Different bodies means the way of birth and death. That you have to stop. And that is stopped when you get Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, I think, in the Ninth Chapter... Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa, mām aprāpya. You cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you have no faith in Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you don't care for Kṛṣṇa, that is another thing, but if you want to get Kṛṣṇa, then what Kṛṣṇa says, you follow. Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā

dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

Translation: "Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "The faithless cannot accomplish this process of devotional of service. That is the purport of this verse. Faith is created by association with devotees. Unfortunate people, even after hearing all the evidence of Vedic literature from great personalities, still have no faith in God." (break)

Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

There should be no mixture of jïāna and karma or even yoga. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu... Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably. Favorably means what Kṛṣṇa wants. That is favorable. If you do what Kṛṣṇa wants, that is favorable. And if you do what Kṛṣṇa does no want, that is unfavorable; that is not bhakti. Just like Kaṁsa. He was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but that was not favorably. He was thinking otherwise, how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and that is not bhakti. The gopīs were also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how to make Him happy, and that is favorable. So ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā. Without any mixture, adulteration of jïāna and karma, that is pure devotion. Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Those who have no faith, even after hearing about Kṛṣṇa and the excellence of devotional service, who think that it is simply eulogy, find the path very difficult even if they are suppose..." (break)

Prabhupāda: So without this faith, nobody can achieve the association of Kṛṣṇa. There are two things. You become associate of Kṛṣṇa, or you become associate of this material world. So if you do not become associate of Kṛṣṇa, then the next step is this association of material world. And association of material world means accepting one type of body and enjoy or suffer for some time; then you get another body. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Now we have to make our choice, whether you want to stop this material way of life and attain the eternal spiritual life...

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

If you get the association of Kṛṣṇa, then you haven't got to come here, this material world. Duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says it is duḥkhālayam. Either you take birth in a very rich, aristocratic family, born in the upper planetary system as demigods--Brahmā, Indra, Candra, like that--or you take your birth, an insignificant ant; wherever you are in material body, it is duḥkhālayam. That you cannot avoid. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. And you cannot make any compromise that "Never mind it is very much miserable. I shall enjoy." So that also will not be allowed. Aśāśvatam. Your tendency is to live forever. So that will not be allowed. Aśāśvata. So this requires knowledge, intelligence, that "If I am eternal," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, "I am not destroyed even this body is destroyed," then you should seek after eternal happiness. Why temporary? That is not in your interest. That happiness is there when you go back to Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. These are the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if we do not try to understand the real purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, and if we theorize, "Bhagavad-gītā means nonviolence. Bhagavad-gītā means to become patriot," these are materialism. We should avoid this wrong interpretation, misguiding direction of blind leaders. We'll not get any benefit out of it. So we are trying to rectify this. That's all. Everything is there. Any question is solved by Kṛṣṇa. Politics, economics, religion, culture, philosophy--everything is discussed very thoroughly. Simply one has to understand. Then he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are generally after yoga, especially the Westerners. I think they have come here for perfection of yoga. But here it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That is first class, to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuïjan. This is yoga, how to increase the attachment for Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti-yoga. So this yoga can be practiced--mayy āsakta-manāḥ pār..., yogam, mad-āśrayaḥ, not anyone's other's āśraya. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa or taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa's personal person, personal associates, mat-para. Mat-para means one who has dedicated his life for Kṛṣṇa. He is called mat-para. Or directly under Kṛṣṇa. Directly under Kṛṣṇa is difficult. Because we do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have to take shelter of a person who is already under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Mat-para people are very seldom available.

Prabhupāda: No. How do you know? If you do not know what is the meaning of mat-para, how you can say "seldom"? Do you know what is mat-para? Unless you know who is mat-para, how you can say like that? You have no knowledge. Mat-para means a simple thing, one who has fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is very seldom? There are so many. But you have decided, "seldom." Why seldom? Here you see so many young men, our association. They are fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. They do not know anything else than Kṛṣṇa. So why it is seldom? You won't take. That is your fault. Rather, they are coming to you. They are canvassing. But you are so stubborn, you'll not take it. That is your fault. They are canvassing door to door. Why do you say, "It is seldom"? It is very easily available. But you won't take. That is your fault. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally came, and He canvassed door to door. He sent His men door to door. We are sending all over the world. But you do not come. Mat-para is not seldom. At least at the present moment, it has become very easily available. But you take. That is your fault. (break) Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. That is... Caitanya Mahāprabhu say. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni..., śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ānandāmbudhi. Ambudhi means sea. You do not find that the sea is increasing. But this transcendental sea of blissful life increases. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam. Very simple thing. You take to śrī-kṛṣṇa-saìkīrtanam and see the result. Why you say it is seldom? It is very easy, but you won't take. Seldom we find the followers. Otherwise it is very cheap. Rūpa Gosvāmī worshiped Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu with these words,

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

"My Lordship, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most magnanimous person of charity." Why? Now, kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya: "One cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, and You are directly delivering love of Kṛṣṇa." It is not seldom. If you want to love somebody, you must know him. Love is not with the air. If you want to love somebody, then you must know what he is and why should I love him. So nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Where is the question of love? If you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, the question of loving Him does not arise. But here Caitanya Mahāprabhu is giving directly love of Kṛṣṇa. That means Kṛṣṇa understanding is automatically--finished. Therefore He is addressed as the most magnanimous. So it is not at all seldom. As the age is fallen, the most magnanimous incarnation is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He is giving directly Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-prema. You take it. Why don't you take it? It is not seldom. You do not like to take it. That is the disease. And that is aśraddadhāna. There is no śraddhā. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ, mām aprāpya. How you can get Kṛṣṇa? There is no śraddhā. Therefore they must suffer in the cycle of birth and death. Nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra. So you voluntarily accept this cycle of birth; you don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Then who can help you? If you have decided to cut your own throat, how can I help you? You'll do it. Whenever you'll get opportunity, you'll cut your throat. How much I can give you protection? That is going on. They have no faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa. They'll manufacture ideas. It is not "seldom." It is my dog's obstinacy that is checking. We cannot give up. Kṛṣṇa has..., sarva-dharmān parityajya. That you cannot do. You want to keep in the same position, and at the same time, you want to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. In this Hrishikesh, tīrtha-kṣetra, everyone comes to get some spiritual enlightenment, but who is talking of Kṛṣṇa? Am I right? And there is Gītā-bhavan, Gītā this, Gītā that. What is that "Gītā"? Gītā commentation. Nobody's interested. They don't like to hear even about Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. So mat-para is not seldom. (laughs) The followers are seldom. But Kṛṣṇa says, mat-para. "If you want to practice this yoga..." Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam... This is yoga. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam. This is real yoga. So nobody's interested. Then what can be done? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If one is selling langlam(?), and he's canvassing, 'Please come here. Take langlam. There is no price for it,' then people will not take. 'Why langlam he's distributing free?' " So that is the position. We are going to door to door: "Take Kṛṣṇa." They think, "It is very cheap thing. What is the use? Let us practice some other yoga." Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣām. We don't take. So langlam is not seldom, but the person who take langlam is seldom. This is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, "By this practice of yoga..." Aiye.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

(indistinct) He says, "How you can understand Me perfectly," samagram, "and," asaṁśayam, "without any doubt." So Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Him, which is without any doubt and without any difficulty, in fullness, but who is hearing Him? That is seldom. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa has become very easily available. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Even kṛṣṇa-prema. But we won't take. Is it seldom?

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupāda: It is our fault we won't take. A man has fallen in the blind well, and he's crying, "Save me! Save me!" and when somebody comes and gives him a rope--"You catch it. I shall lift you"--but he'll not touch it. Then who can save him? The rope is there, the man is there, and he is crying, but when we request that "You take it," he won't take. Aiye. So how he can be saved? And Kṛṣṇa said, mad-āśrayaḥ. But he'll not take mad-āśrayaḥ. He'll take āśraya of something else. This is the position. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha. People are harassed to understand God, whether there is God or not God, who is God. When I first went to America, the theory was going that "God is dead." And what was the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a newspaper...

Prabhupāda: Paper... Yes?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Prabhupāda first did the first public kīrtana, they said that "We thought God is dead, but now we see that Swami Bhaktivedanta has made God alive again."

Prabhupāda: This was the first remark. Then, gradually, these boys joined. They were after God, but they were given to understand that "God is dead. Now you take LSD." So the... God is speaking:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuïjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu

"Take perfect knowledge of God from Me." Why don't you do that? Boliye. What is the reason? Boliye, Swamiji. When God is speaking that "You take from Me perfect and complete knowledge of God," so why don't you take it?

Indian man (1): We are still attached to material side.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we are denying. Is it not? When... Suppose a big man. You do not know what he is. But if the man says, "You want to know me? All right, I shall disclose all my secrets to you. Try to understand." So why don't you..., do not take it? If you want to know the person, and the person is explaining himself, why don't you take it? Why theorize that "God is like this. God is like this"? What is the meaning? When the person has come to explain about himself... Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu: "Hear." Hearing is the process of knowledge. Therefore our Vedas are called śruti. The knowledge has to be acquired through ear. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Don't try to see a sādhu by your eyes. You try to see a sādhu by ears." Karṇe sādhu dekhi. (Hindi) Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiïcin na bhāṣate. (Hindi) For real perfect knowledge, one has to hear. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. That is guru. One who has heard perfectly from the authority, he is guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijïāsuḥ śreya uttamam. And who is guru? Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Everything direction is there.

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jïānaṁ

jïāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

So about from... Apart from śāstra, the vedānta-kṛt, vedānta-vit, Kṛṣṇa, He is speaking. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jïāsyasi tac chṛṇu: "Just hear." And He's vedānta-vit, vedānta-kṛt. He knows what is Vedānta, and He has compiled Vedānta, and He is ready to speak. We don't hear Kṛṣṇa. How much unfortunate we are. (aside:) Here.

Indian man (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) So naturally he'll be averse to māyā. He's no more interested. (Hindi) This is the test. Kṛṣṇa-bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavaḥ. (Hindi) There is no need of separate endeavor. (Hindi) The first line Kṛṣṇa says that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajïā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Find out this, teṣām evānukampārtham, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. (Hindi) Read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt

bhavāmi na cirāt pārtha

mayy āveśita-cetasām

Prabhupāda: No. Teṣām evānukampārtham.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

teṣām evānukampārtham

aham ajïāna-jaṁ tamaḥ

nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho

jïāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

"Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance."

Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "When..." (break)

Prabhupāda: So let us stop today. Somebody kīrtana. (kīrtana begins) (end)

 

Evening Darsan                                              May 15, 1977, Hrisikesa                                                          496768

Prabhupāda: Dūre parjakanam(?) tīrtham. If gaìgā-jala is pure, it is pure here and there also. So Narottama dāsa Öhākura says, tīrtha-yātrā pariśrama, kevala manera bhrama: "It is simply satisfying the mind." Otherwise, wherever there is Ganges, there is Yamunā, that is sacred place. Delhi also, sacred place. There is Gaìgā. Anyway, so, we should take advantage of the knowledge of sādhu. And that is real progress. So catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. Four kinds of men, they come to God, Kṛṣṇa. God means Kṛṣṇa, not ordinary... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate. To approach Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. After many, many births...

                                                                                                                                                                        496783

Prabhupāda: Partial. So partial understanding will not satisfy because he is himself, the same quality, sac-cid-ānanda. He's seeking after ānanda. If he does not get ānanda, if he cannot dance with Kṛṣṇa, then he falls down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. Again material dancing, again hospital, schools. Big, big sannyāsīs could not get any relish. Then... (Hindi) The brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. If it is mithyā, why you are after school? Patanty adhaḥ. Therefore unless one is very pious, sukṛti, they cannot stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. Therefore piety, pious activities, is recommended in the śāstras. And so far devotees are concerned, especially in this age, directly, directly engage him in bhakti-yoga, and everything will be all...

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

The general process is tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ tyāgena, satya-śaucam, śamena damena... There are different stages. But kecit kevalayā bhaktyā, simply by bhakti, kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ... Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ. They can wash. Kārtsnyena aghaṁ dhunvanti. All sinful reaction of life becomes washed. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena. How it is possible? Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Just like there is wash of mist, sun, as soon as the sun rises. So let Kṛṣṇa rise up. Therefore our, this motto is in the English Back to Godhead, "Kṛṣṇa is light..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is light..." "Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead, there is no nescience."

Prabhupāda: So this is direct process. Because Kali-yuga, they cannot actually undergo severe austerities, penances, vairāgya. Little difficult. Not difficult. Very difficult. But that is a special concession for this age. Because we are very fallen, we cannot undergo severe austerities, penances, yamena niyamena vā, brahmacarya. Very, very difficult. So Bhāgavata, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, recommends that "Kali-yuga is full of faults." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājan: "It is a ocean of fault. But there is one great opportunity." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. Specially for this age. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saìgaḥ param: "Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa he can become liberated and go back to home, back to God..."

 

Arrival Speech                                               May 17, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         496804

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Viśvambhara: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: So I cannot speak. I am feeling very weak. I was to go to other places like Chandigarh program, but I cancelled the program because the condition of my health is very deteriorating. So I preferred to come to Vṛndāvana. If death takes place, let it take here. So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn't matter. As Kṛṣṇa is living eternally, similarly, living being also lives eternally. But kīrtir yasya sa jīvati: "One who has done service to the Lord lives forever." So you have been taught to serve Kṛṣṇa, and with Kṛṣṇa we'll live eternally. Our life is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. A temporary disappearance of this body, it doesn't matter. Body is meant for disappearance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So live forever by serving Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya! (offer obeisances) (break)

 

Discussions May 20, 1977 (and May 21, 1977; May 22, 1977), Vṛndāvana                                                   496988

Prabhupāda: ...in that paper he wrote, "In case I die, these three men will be trustees, and the majority will be effective." So that scrap of paper, (name withheld) kept it. And later on, Guru Mahārāja wanted to make a constitution, but he avoided. But actually after his demise, that scrap of paper was presented in the high court, and property was given. That is the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's... It was considered as a will.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No need of big, formal document.

Prabhupāda: He is the original founder. Automatically he wins. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He recovered from that hernia operation.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, and later on, he did not undergo sur... He thought then doctor... After all, everyone has got sentiment. He thought it that "The doctor has been called to kill me." So he did not undergo the hernia operation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He thought the doctor was paid off to kill him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause sometimes people were paid off to kill him.

Prabhupāda: So he did not go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you and your Guru Mahārāja are the greatest enemies of modern civilization in this century, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So many people, materialists...

Prabhupāda: This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

This is India's culture. The whole world is in darkness, and they are risking their life in the transmigration of one body to another, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-var... The rascals do not know what they are doing. They are simply taking account of few years. He does not know that he's eternal. A few years, a fragment, a pass, passing way, that's all. A passing flash. And bharam udvahato vimūòhān. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. This rascal... Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūòhān. This is Vaiṣṇava's concern that "These, what, rascals, they are doing?" That is Vaishnavism. "What these rascals are doing, jumping like monkey, wasting time?" That is Vaishnavism. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. These rascals do not know, driving motorcar, "ghata-ghata-ghata-ghata-ghata-ghata-ghata." He's going to fall down in the sea, but rascal does not know. He's racing with a dog. Dog is also running with full speed, and he's showing, "Oh, I have got this car. This much proud I am."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big dog.

Prabhupāda: Big dog. And for that motorcar, so many tire tubes, so many parts, so many men engaged and money, policies and in completion, "Come here and compare with other 1970-year car." Have you seen the advertisement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All these things, this is going on. Chevrolet Company adver... "Bring other 1977 model and see what we have done." (Hindi)

Indian man (1): (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda has decided that the best medicine will be Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and kīrtana, and no need of any doctors who've promised that "I will save your life" or anything like that. We shouldn't bring them. And no outsiders. No outsiders.

Indian man (1): No medicine for the body?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No medicine.

Prabhupāda: Whatever medicine I am taking, that...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's taking a little bit. Yogendra-rasa he's taking. He's tried so many medicines. That is the point. Every doctor has come, and they've each given their medicine, and he's tried them. But they don't work. This medicine always works, Bhāgavatam and kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Bhavauṣadhi.

Indian man (1): Bhavauṣadhi. Bhava auṣadhi. The cure for the bad of materialism.

Prabhupāda: Śrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. It pleases the ear and mind. "Oh, I am taking this nice..." Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. What is that? Ka uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādāt. Uttama-śloka, Bhagavān, glorification of His activities. Virajyeta vinā paśughnāt: "Those who are paśughna, except them, who can avoid this medicine?"

Indian man (1): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda will come and he'll sit in front of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma every day for a couple of hours, and he's calling some of his, all the devotees here. They'll be here. No... Perfect medicine.

Prabhupāda: No, he's calling all the GBC, all the GBC.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the GBC men, we're calling them.

Prabhupāda: So there is no hurry. Go on with your respective duty. That's all. All right. Now you can...

                                                                                                                                                                        497145

Prabhupāda: They have nothing. Still, they have got... That is called in Bengali, bisnai kulavane cakra(?). There is no poison, but the hood is: "Arrhh." (laughs) That is their... Even this bite, there is no poison. But they are showing kulavana cakra(?). Still, it is bhayaìkara. Cāṇakya Paṇòita says, maṇinā bhūṣitaḥ sarpaḥ kim asau na bhayaìkaraḥ: "A snake..." Sometimes snake has got some jewel on the hood. So he can go in the darkness by the light of the hood. If somebody thinks, "Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him," no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaiṣṇava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaiṣṇava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress. So what is there? They could not do for the last fifty-sixty years. Still... They wanted to exchange. I stopped it, the Mohini Babu. Mohini... Bali hatti zamindar(?).

                                                                                                                                                                              497370

Prabhupāda: They don't mind. "We must have mangoes." Money is very insignificant thing. Gold is the... And as soon as there is enough money, there is debauch, debauchery. Still there are Oriental moral principles. Girls who have become modernized... Otherwise they do not mix with any man. Their husband, that's all. And covered body, they are, very beautiful girl. And those who have become modernized, they are just like European girls. There is no difficulty to become modernized. They have got money. And they tour from one country to another extensively. Formerly for Muhammadans, drinking was the greatest sin. Now it has become... Drinking is strictly prohibited amongst the Muhammadans, according to their religious system. And sex? Before Muhammadan religion was introduced, they used to have sex even with mother. And woman could be purchased as slaves. Marketplace, women were standing for being sold. They would like to be sold. Just like animals. The animals, if somebody purchases, it is, if they are well fed, it is a great fortune for the animals. Just like the dogs here. When they have got a good master, they are fortunate. So it is the fact. If there is civilization, that is this Aryan civilization in India, Vedic civilization. Otherwise, throughout the whole world... These people were within Aryan civilization. Aryan, Iranian, their names are given. Up to Iran, their field(?). Europeans also, Indo-European. Gradually they declined. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to make them civilized. Paścimera loka saba mūòha anācāra. They are all fools and misbehaved. Teach them this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They'll be happy. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is our next step, how to make one civilization, Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) It is very palatable. Not this ordinary medicine, some of them very bitter, some pungent. It is always palatable. So kindly administer this medicine. It doesn't matter whether I survive or die. It doesn't matter. Both ways it is beneficial. Who else?

 

Room Conversation                                    May 27, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           497700

(break) Life is within the atom. Aṇòāntara-stham. That life in due course of time, it comes out through the water. All of a sudden there is bubble coming down, coming down. That is the beginning of generation. What do you think, that? Jalajā. Kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. They are elevated very high planetary system. Again, after reminiscing, they come down. That is described in the śāstra, fall down through rains. Again, like bubbles, come out. (break) Where? The bottom of the earth, giving life. That is already done. In favorable circumstances, due course of time, it comes out. (aside:) You keep. (break) Lots of money.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) In due course, in favorable circumstances, it is to be found out.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That jīva comes along with the rain?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That jīva, the ātmā, comes...

Prabhupāda: Comes from. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...along with the rain.

Prabhupāda: That is described in the śāstra. Kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. In this way they come to the lower planetary system. Coming with water and begin again with water.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That makes sense.

Prabhupāda: And we see sṛṣṭi-tattva, Mahā-Viṣṇu, is coming through water, Kāraṇa-jala. The same process... We are aṇu; He is vibhu. Yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidrām anantam. Kāraṇārṇava-jale.

Bhavānanda: In Darwin's evolutionary theory also he says, from the water life came. Correct?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They also say life from water.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Registered?

Mahāṁśa: These are the Deities.

Prabhupāda: Not yet registered?

Mahāṁśa: Not yet finished.

Prabhupāda: Why it is remaining to be done?

Mahāṁśa: They have asked for fifteen thousand rupees instead of nine thousand because we put a value of the land on six lakhs, and they have valued it as ten and a half lakhs. So I just wrote a letter to Your Divine Grace, asking whether we should pay them the amount and go ahead or...

Prabhupāda: Pay on protest.

Mahāṁśa: On protest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁśa: That... Yes, the advocate said if we go to the higher court, we will get a transfer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pay immediately and protest. They'll return immediately. Pay on protest.

Mahāṁśa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Hm.

Mahāṁśa: Actually now, in the monsoons, we're going to take up a lot of cultivation. This is watermelon juice.

Prabhupāda: So give it to the Deity and distribute prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. It got a little spoiled while traveling. The tomatoes were squashed, but some of them are ripe.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It doesn't matter. So what is your news?

Indian devotee (1): So we also gained a farm. We have started cultivating now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is giving you good chance. Develop farm and have temple. Go on enthusiastically.

Mahāṁśa: This morning I read in the newspapers about the exodus to village soon by the Prime Minister, and there the Prime Minister says that he is eager on developing village programs to establish agriculture facilities and village programs.

Prabhupāda: That is real work. If the Prime Minister has got this thing in his brain, then I can understand that he can do so.

Mahāṁśa: And this is a very nice thing he said, Prabhupāda. He said that "We want to improve things in the countryside to an extent that people from the cities start running to the villages."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want. I... Everywhere I go and say, how these rascals...? So much land is lying, and these rascals are not developing. And they are making... What is that? Coal stone. Coal. They are interested with these bricks and stones, not green vegetables. Such a rascal government. Give them facility. We know how to do it. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Let them engage in kīrtana. There will be more water for gardening, and it will be moist, and then produce fodder for the animals and food for you. And animal gives you milk. That is Vṛndāvana life. And they are absorbed in this so-called opulence. Kṛṣṇa has taken birth. They are bringing so many nice, pleasant foodstuff, very well-dressed and ornamented. These are description. In the morning we were reading. How they were happy, the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana with Kṛṣṇa and living and cows. That I want to introduce. AT ANY COST DO IT and... Don't bother about big, big buildings. It is not required. Useless waste of time. Produce. Make the whole field green. See that. Then whole economic question solved. Then you eat sumptuous. Eat sumptuously. The animal is happy. The animal even does not give milk; let them eat and pass stool and urine. That is welcome. After all, eating, they will pass stool. So that is beneficial, not that simple milk is beneficial. Even the stool is beneficial. Therefore I am asking so much here and..., "Farm, farm, farm, farm..." That is not my program--Kṛṣṇa's program. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce greenness everywhere, everywhere. Vṛndāvana. It is not this motorcar civilization. If it has taken in his brain, then it is to be understood that he can do this plan. He'll be able. Somebody said that he is eager to see me. Hm?

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Mahāṁśa: Caitya-guru was saying.

Prabhupāda: Caitya-guru?

Indian devotee (1): Actually I was wondering that I should go and conduct him, 'cause last time, when he met our devotees, when he mentioned that he was very eager to have your darśana in Bombay, then you were not feeling well. So you were unable to see him.

Prabhupāda: But if he can come to see me... This program he's taking. The whole world will be happy. (break) Land was made wet by milk, not with water. This is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You can find out that verse.

Yaśomatīnandana: Which one?(?) Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Siṣicuḥ. Gāvaḥ siṣicuḥ, like that. Sarva-dughā mahī. Ah. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. The situation in Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's kingdom... This is the beginning of the verse. Find out. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, er, sarva-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. First part. (pause)

Yaśomatīnandana: That is in First Canto, Part Two, which is not here.

Prabhupāda: This shelter made for keeping always reference book... There is no book. Vṛndāvana. Just see. See. The shelter kept there, reference book. It is not there. Just see. What for we have got shelter? Shelf is there for keeping reference book. Somebody has taken away. That's all. This is our management(?). Very bad management. What can I do? This is our movement. We have to select men from the worst class. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo. (laughs) Nobody will come here after passing M.A., Ph.D. The most fallen we have to select.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lowest(?).

Prabhupāda: Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is our position. We have to select our worker from the worst class of the society, pāpī and tāpī. But, we shall prove, by hari-nāma they become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the movement. You trace the history of everyone. All worst, third class. And they come here. And that is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. How many Doctor Svarūpa has come? If we speak frankly, (laughter) all from the worst class. Those who were finished. And Kṛṣṇa... It is said, pāpī-tāpī jata chilo. Pāpī and tāpī, they are not first class. They are the tenth class. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is the test of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, that how many pāpī-tāpīs have been picked up. Brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei, balarāma hoilo nitāi. This is Gaura-Nitāi. What is their business? Now, pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. "Bas? This is their business?" Yes, to deliver all the pāpīs and tāpīs. "So how is that?" Tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. See Jagāi-Mādhāi. It is not imaginary. So we have to deliver all Jagāis and Mādhāis. This is our movement. That is the test of the, of us. It is not sorry for that, but still, they should act like good men.

Yaśomatīnandana: The verse is here.

kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ

sarva-kāma-dughā mahī

siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Siṣicuḥ?

Yaśomatīnandana: Siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ.

Yaśomatīnandana: Payasodhasvatīr mudā.

Prabhupāda: This is Yudhiṣṭhira... Come in everywhere. It was the position during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time that land should be kept wet, and during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time the land was wet not by water but by milk. This is Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time. Siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ. What is the meaning?

Yaśomatīnandana: "Kāmam--everything needed." Translation: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man profusely. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: Introduce this, rascal. This party government, that party government, big, big belly, big, big monkey, eating cows and hogs and dogs, and they have become big, big minister. What they can do? That is not... This is the secret. What is the second line?

Yaśomatīnandana: Nadyaḥ samudrā girayaḥ...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Yaśomatīnandana: Siṣicuḥ sma vrajān.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Let them remain happy and automatically... Just like in our Philadelphia. Oh, such a big... Giving him thousand pounds. Yes, we are doing this, fatty. Cans of milk. Even the cat is happy. The dog is happy. There is no fight. Cat is so happy, stroking on the back of the cows. Similarly, the dog is... There is no "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" barking. I have seen it. Only through the medium of milk. These are not stories. I have seen. And who is Satyabhāmā's husband?

Bhavānanda: Oh, Parama... What's his name? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...make the whole land, people, very happy. You show this example all over the world, this example, in America. Don't spoil money. Show by example. Enough science and enough motorcar, that's all. No more wanted. This is wanted. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Bring water from the sky. Keep always land moist and green. This is wanted. It is not my desire. It is Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Here Vyāsadeva says, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. These rascals, they do not know.

They do not consult śāstra, therefore manufacture. In Chandigarh so much land lying vacant. Thirty years already passed. And they are developing the cities. And another four hundred years will be required. The land is lying vacant. And they are making two governors, five commissioners, six ministers and..., drawing fat salary. This is government. Government means to draw fat salary at the expense of poor people. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Just like the rogues and thieves, they by force take money from us, these rascal, under some law, they'll take, this government. They will live at any cost. Never mind forty rupees (indistinct) a week. They have got cheap money. Print note and give him forty rupees. What is that? "You want forty rupees? Eh, take forty rupees." This is artificial inflation. They have got power to print notes. "Pay gold forty rupees." "No, that is illegal. Take paper." Means a cheating business from the government. He's giving him piece of paper, and the rascal is thinking, "I am making one thousand rupees." Formerly, in our childhood, we have seen a currency. They will offer, "What you want, gold, silver, or currency?" These three things were offered. If you want gold coins, take gold coins. If you want silver coins, take silver. And if you want currency, you take. We have seen it.

Yaśomatīnandana: No more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You could purchase. In our family or every family, they used to purchase gold from the currency and melt it and make ornaments. There was no restriction. "Guinea gold." Gold was purchased and sold as you like. Where is that gold? Refusing gold(?) and taking.(?)

Yaśomatīnandana: You want me to read the purport? "The basic principle of economic development is centered about land and cows. The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc...."

Prabhupāda: I am not interested in (indistinct). These I have already written some years ago. This is my idea.

Yaśomatīnandana: "One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulative rainfalls. Rainfalls are not under the control of the human being. The heavenly king Indradeva is the controller of rain, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulative rains from the horizon." (break)

Prabhupāda: So how things were explained? It has been explained by me before that. Why don't you take it? There is no need here.

Yaśomatīnandana: He told the devotees that he has got your edition of Bhagavad-gītā and he has read it. His son purchased it. And he has got some other books also. He liked it very much.

Indian devotee (2): There was meeting of Arya-samaj, so we went to attend that. They invited him there. And later on, they asked that the government should help them to open a big hospital there. And he said that "Because I myself do not use alleopathic medicines, so how can I help you? How can I introduce? I believe in nature cure. I can't help. If you produce something, that nature cure hospital, my government will help you." He said, "I never took medicine in my life." Morarji Desai says. And he was in jail. He said that everybody was seeing that they were nineteen months in jail, and they have disease, some pain, and some this one, some this one. He said, "But I got something from there. I learned whole Bhagavad-gītā by heart. I was worshiping Kṛṣṇa. I was reciting Bhagavad-gītā in the morning and evening. I got something, whereas others, they have failed. They couldn't get anything. I took something from that jail."

Yaśomatīnandana: (reading) "Regulative rains not only help ample production of food grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people want cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial, materialist's life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally?"

Prabhupāda: Like hog. (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: Why don't you still take advantage?

Prabhupāda: Still you can take advantage of it. What you are doing? Here is this nice statement. Here is the thought.

Yaśomatīnandana: Another, Home Minister, also is saying these same things, discourage the factories and industrialization...

Prabhupāda: This is ruination. Factory means ruination. Factory means destruction. And agriculture means construction. The father is going to the factory, and the children are starving--destruction. Go on reading.

 

Conversation Pieces(2)                                Vrndavan, May 27, 1977                                                            497397

Prabhupāda: We have no other business. We want to see people live, eating very nicely nutritious food, keeping good health. But unnecessarily artificial things, bothering, that we don't want. Keep your health very nice, live for as many years as possible, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you go back to home, back to Godhead, permanent life. Yad gatvā na nivartante. This we want to give. There is no cheating. There is no politics, no personal ambition fulfilling. This is our mission. Try to convince them. There is not a little tinge of personal sense gratification. This is our... Now can you point out, any one of them, that "Here is the point, the personal sense gratification"? We are talking amongst ourselves, so if there is any flaw, you can point out. Can anyone? That "Here is the point, personal sense gratification"? There is no such things in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. Our only ambition is we live among devotees and execute the mission of our predecessors, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa. This is our ambition.

tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās

janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ

We have got ambition, but this is our ambition, that live with devotees and execute the mission of our predecessor. This is our aim. Without ambition nobody can live. Self-interest, ambition, is everywhere. But self-interest is to execute the Kṛṣṇa's desire. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. That they do not know. So you are Americans, and they are responding. You are responding means Americans responding. So do very carefully, and if one fourth of America becomes Vaiṣṇava, the whole world will change. They are the leading nation. Kṛṣṇa has given them all facility--good land, good intelligence, good education, good facilities, good prestige. Is it not? They are fortunate. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī. Everything is there. Take this opportunity. This is our ambition. I went to America with this ambition, that "If the American people will take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." That is coming to be fulfilled. Now the Indians resident of America, they are also taking. That you... Who said?

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Actually even in Los Angeles, where there is a small settlement, the entire Indian population is supporting us. They have their own societies, Gujarat, Maharastran, but all of them have voted to endorse our Ratha-yātrā and to support it with all their facilities.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they'll do. Indians and Americans, they are well-to-do. In foreign countries, everywhere, I see, Indians, their position is better than in India. In your country also. Indians in foreign countries, they get more facilities. Personally also, I could not do here in India in spite of twenty-three years. And as soon as I went to America, all facilities came to me. Of course, it took some time. That takes some... Indian, the worst government and everything is crippled, crippled. People are hampered. And the government servant, they're simply wasting time and drawing big, big salary. This is India. Very precarious condition. Fighting, party, that party, that party. Because India's original culture is very, very strong, despite all these disadvantages, they are still standing, mass of people. Otherwise India's government is worthless. Hm? What do you think?

Rāmeśvara: It's obvious.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: It is obvious, what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: When I left India, I promised "I'll never come here." I was reluctant to do anything here. You know that? No action do there. But still, I thought that "At least in Māyāpura let me have my..." (laughs) At least Māyāpura, that "There is Vaiṣṇava, so many resident, in Māyāpura, Vṛndāvana." I was... I promised that "I'll never come again, back again here." That was my promise. But Kṛṣṇa wanted. That's all right. I was quite disgusted. Still I am disgusted. America giving permanent resident, these rascals will not give. What is wrong? In your country they also get permanent resident, outsiders?

Ātreya Åṣi: In my country there is also a reaction towards Indians. I had to come twice. Once I came the night before, and they would not give me visa at the entry.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Ātreya Åṣi: The Indian government.

Prabhupāda: Indian. Indian?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, because so many Indians have not been granted visa in Iran, so they are now reciprocating like that, and I had to go back to Tehran to see the ambassador, who is our friend, getting visa and come back immediately.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Ātreya Åṣi: The government are just playing these games.

Prabhupāda: Whimsical. Very, very difficult to deal with such unscrupulous government. But still, we have got open field all over the world.

Rāmeśvara: In America the book selling has now surpassed last year.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Rāmeśvara: We are trying to double. So it is not yet doubled, but it has gone...

Prabhupāda: Surplus.

Rāmeśvara: ...beyond last year.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. It is going to be doubled.

Rāmeśvara: We are confident. By your words it will double.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Be doubly blessed. Yes. I say, America is my fatherland. So New Vrindaban is developing? Be happy everywhere.

Kīrtanānanda: How can we be happy when you're not well?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm?

Kīrtanānanda: We can't be happy if you're not well.

Prabhupāda: I am always well.

Kīrtanānanda: Why can't you give us your old age?

Prabhupāda: When I see that things are going on nicely, I am happy. What is this with this body? Body is body. We are not body.

Kīrtanānanda: Wasn't it Purudāsa that gave his father his youth?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: Yayāti. King Yayāti traded his old age.

Kīrtanānanda: With his son. You can do that.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Who did?

Rāmeśvara: King Yayāti.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Yayāti. No, why? You are my body. So you live on. There is no difference. Just like I am working, so my Guru Mahārāja is there, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. I think actually I have written that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's in the Bhāgavatam, that "He who lives with him, he lives eternally. He who remembers his words lives eternally."

Prabhupāda: So I am not going to die. Kīrtir yasya sa jīvati: "One who has done something substantial, he lives forever." He doesn't die. Even in our practical life... Of course, this is material, karma-phala. One has to accept another body according to his karma. But for devotee there is no such thing. He always accepts a body for serving Kṛṣṇa. So there is no karma-phala. (pause)

Rāmeśvara: Last volume of Ninth Canto is at the printer.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: The last volume, it is already at the printer, being printed.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Ninth.

Rāmeśvara: It will be here in about ten days. And the first volume of Tenth Canto, we have just received Chapter Four and Chapter Five, and the artists will be finished in two weeks.

Prabhupāda: Another thing, the Hindi photographic pages, if you send to Los Angeles, the books can be printed there.

Rāmeśvara: Printed in America?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: What language? Hindi?

Prabhupāda: The photographic pages...

Kīrtanānanda: For the photographic pages in the Hindi, the printing of the photography...

Rāmeśvara: The color? That's possible. I can talk with Gopāla to see if it is less expensive.

Prabhupāda: Because Hindi composition is not possible there. So after composing here, if they send you the photography, finished copy, from that copy, whether you can print there?

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: I think you can work out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Print there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: In America. The art pages?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, everything.

Rāmeśvara: Everything? It will be more expensive because in India they print on cheap paper. If we use the same cheap paper, they'll still have to pay more because it has to be shipped back to India. But I can check.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) So?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Without condition, kīrtana should go on. And that is the panacea of all troubles. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura has given, jāy sakal bipod, bhaktivinod bole, jakhon o-nām gāi. This is a fact. If you always continue kīrtana, there is no danger. You are above all danger. Our Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja knows very well. He has no danger. He's sticking to that New Vrindaban program, improving, very good example. They eat first-class, nutritious food, and in Philadelphia also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pennsylvania, Port Royal.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our Port Royal farm.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First class. Satyabhāmā gave me...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that cāpāṭi.

Prabhupāda: "Too thick. How shall I eat it?" Oh, it was so nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satyabhāmā gave Prabhupāda this black cāpāṭi. He thought, "So thick. How will I be able to eat it?"

Prabhupāda: Very delicious and easily digested. They are living very happily. You had been there?

Rāmeśvara: No, I've just heard all the good reports.

Prabhupāda: Very happily. That is life. Eat very sumptuously nutritious food. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. What is this nonsense life, from five o'clock in the morning driving big, big trucks, "Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, Is that life? In Berkeley... Berkeley? Or where is that? Where are our temple only?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, Berkeley.

Prabhupāda: So there is a road. Whenever you go, always trucks: "Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoo, whoo, whoo..." The docks and ports filled up with all rubbish things. People are harassed. Is that life? And they are compensating by drinking, by illicit sex and meat-eating. Soul-killing civilization. Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa. You know this song? There is a song.

Ādi-keśava: Govinda dāsa. Bhaja Huìre Mana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sing it. You know?

Ādi-keśava: Not all the words.

Prabhupāda: You know?

Jayapatākā: Most of it.

Prabhupāda: Śīta ātapa, bāta bariṣaṇa, e dina jāminī jāgi re, biphale sebinu, kṛpaṇa durajana... Hm? What is that? Capala sukha-laba lāgi' re.

Jayapatākā: Bhaja huìre mana.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhaja... Sing it.

Ātreya Åṣi: Sing it.

Jayapatākā: (sings Bhaja Huìre Mana to:) ...śīta ātapa, bāta bariṣaṇa, ithe ki āche paratīti re...

Prabhupāda: It is śīta ātapa, bāta bariṣaṇa, e dina jāminī jāgi re.

Jayapatākā: (continues singing Bhaja Huìre Mana)

Prabhupāda: (correcting Jayapatākā:) Bhajahuì hari-pada nīti re. Śravaṇa kīrtana...

Jayapatākā: (continues singing Bhaja Huìre Mana)

Prabhupāda: (correcting Jayapatākā:) Govinda-dāsa-abhi...

Jayapatākā: (continues singing Bhaja Huìre Mana)

Prabhupāda: So why don't you teach this song? You repeat, and they will repeat, and they will...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chant.

Prabhupāda: Very nice song. Very. Just applicable to the point, everywhere. Philosophical, practical.

Jayapatākā: (sings) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...introduce. Now I see so many times.

Rāmeśvara: Two million copies sold by the end of this year.

Prabhupāda: At least they are under... Two million people know what is Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't read that book and not know Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you read that book, you have to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Every page is about Kṛṣṇa, every word. One professor complained that the trouble with your books is that everywhere you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Even when Kṛṣṇa's name isn't there, you put it there. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa phobia. And that is my idea. Let there be repeatedly the sounding, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa he. They want to avoid it, and I don't allow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That reporter in Bombay complained against you that you had a one-track mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They say, "Why you are stressing so much on Kṛṣṇa?" And that is the only business.

Rāmeśvara: At the end of this year we will have sold at least sixty-five million books on Kṛṣṇa, magazines and books. By end of December, sixty-five million throughout the world, mostly in the last five years.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is already known, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement."

Rāmeśvara: Every year we are selling at least fifteen to twenty million books now, books and magazines.

Prabhupāda: It will increase more. People will be inquisitive. Yes, everything there is. What is the wrong? We are talking of Kṛṣṇa, and all of a sudden I collapse. Oh, that is the greatest profit. Greatest profit. Kṛṣṇa tvadīya...

Ādi-keśava: Kṛṣṇa tvadīya-pada-paìkaja-païjarāntam.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Kṛṣṇa tvadīya-pada-paìkaja-païjarāntam adyaiva viśatu me mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ, prāṇa-prayāṇa... Ordinary dying, kapha-pitta-vāyu: "Ghara ghara ghar," choking and... But in the kīrtana if we die, oh, it is so successfully... Injection, operation... Who needs it? That atmosphere death and kṛṣṇa-kīrtana death? Glorious death. Oxygen gas... (laughs) Dying and so much trouble. Never call. Please accept my request. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, bas, and let me die peacefully. Never be disturbed, call doctor--no. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on chanting. Chanting, hearing, chanting. You have got so much material. Read. Read something from this book. Rāmeśvara, you can read. It is your book.

Rāmeśvara: I'm simply your servant, by your grace, Prabhupāda. This Chapter One of this second volume, "Kaṁsa Sends Akrūra for Kṛṣṇa." "Vṛndāvana was..." (break)

Prabhupāda: As soon as this Indira Gandhi and her son disturbed Vṛndāvana people, within a week... Just see. This is practical. The poor, these bābājīs, they were going to beg, and by force, once, twice, injection. So immediately, after one week...

Rāmeśvara: For sterilization?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practically... And I was surprised how such a abominable falldown came to Indira Gandhi. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. No politician fallen in such a way in the history. Finished business. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān yoniṣu. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. They are "This party, that party, that..." But to curb down Indira's power, it was simply by Kṛṣṇa directly. Hm. Go on reading. (break) "Don't worry. I am here." This is Kṛṣṇa. A boy, ten years boy, Kṛṣṇa, He was, "Come on," challenging. This is Kṛṣṇa. Go on.

 

Meeting                                                        May 28, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                          497968

Girirāja: Then, for the BBT, the idea would be that the principle amount should not be touched, but it can be given, you know, for loan if absolutely necessary, just as you have been doing. But the idea is that that amount should always be repaid.

Prabhupāda: On principle.

Girirāja: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Even by chance it is not paid, don't mind. Business should not suffer. That's all.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you can provide, you must, of course, see that business is done. And then they should try to pay. If they are actually not able to pay, don't mind. Is that all right?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Principle should be they should return back. But if by chance they cannot, don't press. Let them go on with business. But don't be lenient. (laughter)

Jayatīrtha: I think they'll be able to pay.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should want to pay, out of duty to you.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will give them. You are increasing the book sale. That is Kṛṣṇa's favor. Kṛṣṇa is assuring, "Don't be disturbed about money matters. I'll pay you." But don't be very loose or extravagant. Every paisa should be spent very cautiously. That is wanted. So it is all right.

 

Vigil             May 28, 1977 (and May 29, 1977), Vṛndāvana           498086                                                                                                                                                                         Ātreya Åṣi: Both. It's also curing us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. You'll find, not find any medicine throughout the universe that you'll be benefited either you die or be... This is the only medicine. In both ways you are... The death is inevitable. You die today or tomorrow. So by taking this medicine, if you die, you have the greatest benefit. And if you live, enjoy. If you die, enjoy; if you live, enjoy. Go on chanting. (kīrtana) (break) No, I have no objection. (laughter) I am prepared in either way. What is that machine they keep? Husking machine?

Upendra: Asking machine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Husking machine.

Prabhupāda: That from paddy, rice is taken away by beating.

Bhavānanda: (whispering) That's the...

Prabhupāda: In your country there is no such thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpura we have seen.

Prabhupāda: It is called òheìki.

Bhavānanda: Òheìki.

Prabhupāda: That is Indian. (Bengali) Òheìki? (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā must know.

Prabhupāda: Jayapatākā must know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that husking machine?

Bhavānanda: Òheìki?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhavānanda: Òheìki.

Jayapatākā: Òheìki.

Prabhupāda: So the òheìki... If you send the òheìki to heaven, so what it will do? Same business. Either the òheìki is kept here or in the heaven, his business to do that "Dag, dag, dag, dag..."So?

                                                                                                                                                                        498159

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I am very much confident of this medicine because nobody is prepared to die, but I am prepared to die. That much strength I have got. Generally people do not like to die. But I will be very glad to die if Kṛṣṇa wants. This is... And I shall stay with you. I have no objection either way. But I am not afraid of death. That much strength I have got. Why shall I be afraid? There is no cause of...

Jayatīrtha: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhakta-sane bās. Such a great opportunity. You are all pure devotees. To live with you and to die while you are chanting, such a great opportunity. So there is no question of being afraid of death. (break) Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of course, we have our preference.

Prabhupāda: I have no objection. I have no... (break) Whatever His desire is, I... (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      Vrndavan, May 29, 1977                                                           498494

Prabhupāda: Make just this garland... (break) ...keep hair. Look very beautiful by keeping hair. What is that explanation?

Bhagavat: I was advised that because I was going to the European countries for preaching for some time, that...

Prabhupāda: But they, they, they...

Bhagavat: ...it would be required to keep these hairs.

Prabhupāda: ...owned victory with the court by keeping shaven hair.

Hari-śauri: They won a victory in the court by keeping a shaved head.

Bhagavat: I asked their advice, whether I should shave or keep the hair.

Prabhupāda: Who is that nonsense advice? Who is that rascal? "Advice." By keeping hair you become beautiful and become victimized. "Advice." This is... Without advice, this mentality is going on outside, to keep hair. We are known as shaven hair, whole society.

Hari-śauri: I've been shaving my head once every month. It's just about three weeks since I've...

Prabhupāda: Every fortnight. At least. Before going to Europe, six years ago, you were keeping hair: "I have to go to Europe." That I have seen. Everywhere. Those who... You like to keep hair. That hippie mentality is going on. That's right. That is good, very intelligent reasoning, actual, long hair by keeping...(?) Everyone is giving some advice. Gurudāsa is giving. "He's keeping. He's..." Gargamuni. Everyone has some explanation. I do not know how you can give up this hippie mentality. Hippie. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. Kali-yuga. Victim of Kali-yuga. It is... It is not yet whole, but weak men, victimized by Kali-yuga... There are so many things to victimize over the living entities in Kali-yuga, and one of the item is that he will take that "I have become very, very beautiful, attractive by keeping long hair." Keśa. That is already stated there. You are victimized by that Kali-yuga. That's all. No explaining. Our trademark is clean-shaven. We are known as shaven hair. Why you should be victimized? You are known as shaven hair. Are you not? Hm? They say that "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, shaven hair"?

Hari-śauri: Shaven-headed.

Prabhupāda: Shaven hair. So why you should be victimized by keeping hair? What victory you will gain? Conquer over the whole world, Roman Empire, by keeping hair? Hippie mentality, that's all. That is within the core of the heart. As soon as get some opportunity... Just like during summer season the field appears to be dried up. And as soon as there is some rain, oh, it is green, immediately green. So things are already there. Hm? Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now you see to the field. They're all dry. But as soon as there will be rain in the village, all green. So the seeds are there, hippie seeds. As soon as there is some opportunity, come out, green: "Yes, I am beautiful. Come on." But in the court room they never addressed. Judge never asked that "Why you are shaven-headed?" Was there any question like that?

Hari-śauri: Actually, when he first went to court, they were wondering why he had hair.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: When Ādi-keśava went to court the first time...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...he had suit and hair, and they wondered why he was dressed like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then cheater.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, they accused...

Prabhupāda: That means, of course, indirectly hinted that "Now you are cheating. You are known as shaven-headed. Now you have kept hair. What is the purpose except cheating?"

Hari-śauri: On saìkīrtana all the distributors wear wigs and like that to..., because it's much easier to distribute, to distribute books.

Prabhupāda: I do not know all this. Formerly, shaven-headed, they used to distribute. Now it is not possible.

Hari-śauri: It's increased since they did plainclothes distribution.

Prabhupāda: Encourages?

Hari-śauri: Yeah. The distribution has increased.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you dress like European, half foreign dress and half hair? Who is that foreign and European and gentleman? What is the use of wig? Keep regular gentleman's hair. There is no need of saffron dress. If by ordinary dress you can sell more book, there is no need of saffron dress. So what is the time now?

Gargamuni: 9:30.

Bhavānanda: Kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhavānanda: Kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Bhavānanda: Would you like to have kīrtana now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...come directly, brāhmaṇas sometimes brahmacārī, gṛhastha. That will impress. (break) ...hodgepodge. Respect is no. Ideals become a leader. He'll do. He'll do. There must be some strong men. Tilaka always must be there. That is our great standard. Kaṇṭhī-mālā. Every fifteen days you should be cleansed. (break) (indistinct) Don't be in all this (indistinct). Go on very nicely. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita Gadādhara Śrīvāsa... (break)

                                                                                                                                                                        498542

Prabhupāda: No, you gave money. I can give you. There is Book Trust.

Gargamuni: I just feel...

Prabhupāda: No.

Gargamuni: ...that so many books are there I have not distributed yet. I will print more and...

Prabhupāda: No, no. This will come out. Very good idea. Sell.

Gargamuni: Sell first; then print. I should first sell...

Prabhupāda: No, at least you must have three, four, varieties.

Gargamuni: Right now we have two varieties.

Prabhupāda: So make it four varieties. That will be first class. Don't print twenty thousand. Print five thousand.

 

 

 

Conversations with Kirtan Groups             May 29, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           498166

Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. Spiritual master who has opened the eyes, he is, spiritual master, the life of the disciple. Do not... He cannot be envied. Janme janme prabhu sei. Life of the disciple. Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. Nobody can repay the indebtedness of spiritual master, even by getting a duration of life like Brahmā. There is a verse in Śrīmad... Brahma... Brahma-saṁ... Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, there is a verse. Sei... Sei guru. All right.

                                                                                                                                                                        498268

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So why don't you develop?

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Aṇòāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Even within the atom there is living entity. Just like within the seed there is living entity, and when the seed gets favorable circumstances, the life is there. It fructifies. Different seeds, different life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is true only, though, in the earth planet. In the earth.

Prabhupāda: Earth?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this planet.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Everywhere there is water and there is... That's all.

Brahmānanda: But there is not water on every planet.

Prabhupāda: That is rascals' theory, all rascal. Wherever there is planet, there is water, there is everything. If there is no water, where from the sand comes? Scientifically? What is the sand? Hm?

Brahmānanda: The composition of sand?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Composition is silica.

Prabhupāda: Silica. What is silica?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Silica contains one atom of silicon and two atoms of oxygen, but in the case of an acid, it contains two atoms of hydrogen.

Prabhupāda: Acid is liquid.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Silicic acid?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Silicic acid, it forms with water and silicon.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So... And without water, where silica comes? They are all rascals. Wherever there is silica, there must be water, dried up or existing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's true, though, that there is water, but not as much as we find...

Prabhupāda: But that is another. Water must be there. Without water, there is no question of silica.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was thinking that... Just like in the sun planet, you said the body has to be fiery, like the sun, so in that sense the...

Prabhupāda: That does not mean there is no water.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is water, but it's very small amount.

Prabhupāda: Small or big, that is another thing. There must be water. Even within the fire there is water.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So life has to develop through that water.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That water, that small amount of water, the life has to develop.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of... That small amount is sufficient, according to the circumstance. Just like in the desert they don't require much water, the camels. Once drunk, they can go on the desert for three days. You cannot do that. There is water. Otherwise how watermelon is coming?

Brahmānanda: Even the cactus plants, they're able to grow, and they store the water...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there are these... These rascals, they do not know. Everything is there, every planet.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The five gross elements is present all the...

Prabhupāda: Kṣitir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Must... (aside:) Give me. Give me that.

Indian devotee (4): Still down?

Prabhupāda: Hm. (break) Everywhere there is life, there is everything, varieties. Here you see in the water there is life, in the land there is life, in the air there is life, within the silicate there is life. So many, many millions. These crabs... What is called?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crab.

Prabhupāda: How they are living? As soon as you walk, they go within the sand.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently they also found out that there are some, called bacteria. They live in a very unusual circumstances. They can survive to 150 degrees. And sometimes they live inside ammonia, ammonia solution, without water. They can survive.

Prabhupāda: Not without water. There is water, but not as much. Just like on the land there is water, but in the sea there are so much water. So there is life; there is life. We don't say that in the land there is no water. Everywhere is there different. So this evolution, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, it has developed the same way. The first life comes out... Then everywhere there is life. The transportation from higher planet to lower planet, water.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Water?

Prabhupāda: The rainfall. With the rainfall, those who are fallen souls, they are coming down. Then takes shelter within the atom. Then again grows.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's interesting that science says also that in the beginning there was only hydrogen. So actually water is... Its main composition of two parts of hydrogen...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One part of oxygen. So if the soul is coming through this water, through rain from higher planetary system...

Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. They elevate, again fall down. This is going on. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. But when they go to Kṛṣṇaloka, then they are... (break)

 

Discussions                                                   June 2, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           498760

4. I have created, developed and organized the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and as such, I hereby will that none of the immovable properties in India in the name of ISKCON shall ever be mortgaged, borrowed against..."

Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Everywhere.

Rāmeśvara: See, in America sometimes we will borrow against the temple to "fry the fish in its own oil." So we wanted to make this language just for India, that they can never even mortgage it or risk it in any way.

Prabhupāda: All right. But outside they can do?

Rāmeśvara: Outside they have...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā Mahārāja just said that the temple buildings should never be mortgaged. Other buildings might be, but what about the temple buildings? Just like in Los Angeles you have many buildings. The temple building should never be mortgaged, but others may be.

Prabhupāda: There is a word, devāyatana,(?) Indian. Devāyatana property can never be mortgaged, sold or risked. (background whispering)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America... Just like in New York there's a twelve-thirteen-story building. The temple only occupies the ground floor. They can't mortgage... Sometimes if they want to get other properties, they may want to use the asset of that building. If they have this clause, they won't be able to.

Rāmeśvara: Also sometimes we have got one property in America, and you have allowed us to sell it. Just like in Miami we had to sell the property in Coconut Grove and we bought that big farm.

Prabhupāda: No, with the consent of the GBC...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Consent of the GBC.

Prabhupāda: Like that.

                                                                                                                                                                        498801

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, give protection.

Rāmeśvara: "Properties outside of India on principle should never be sold."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this will will take a little bit of time to get all those lists and everything together. In the meantime we have that other will.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the meantime we have that short, brief will. And this may take a little time to...

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said to write this now, so... "Properties outside of India in principle should never be sold."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. "But if the need arises, they may be."

Girirāja: Do we have a list of these?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If the need arises...

Rāmeśvara: "They may be sold or mortgaged, etc...."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "By the consent..."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Sold or mortgaged, never.

Girirāja: Prabhupāda doesn't want us to put in "can be sold or mortgaged..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about mortgaged? Just like, as an example, that New York building. They'll... When they pay it off, that building...

Rāmeśvara: They can get a million-dollar loan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can get a loan for a million dollars.

Rāmeśvara: And buy another building.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or so many buildings.

Girirāja: But then there's risk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you consider.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's risk right now. There's a risk right now.

Rāmeśvara: The only time they should ever be sold is in some emergency? Why should...?

Prabhupāda: With the consent of all the GBC.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the point is "with the consent of the GBC committee members."

Prabhupāda: Better not to be sold.

 

Room Conversation                                     June 17, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                          498969

(break) (indistinct) That is Indian style. "Kṛṣṇa we must move. Now this child is trying to turn Himself. Turn Himself." There is ceremony. This is ceremony. This is Indian way of raising up children. Sad-bhakṣaṇa.(?) When we were small children, we were all, brothers and sisters, three mo..., three years before us. So naturally, when mother was young, she became pregnant. So there were three, four ceremonies during, within the period of three years. One is called sad-bhakṣaṇa. Sad-bhakṣaṇa. The idea is... That (indistinct) he is dangerous. At the time of delivery the woman is in danger. There may be so many dangers. Therefore twice sad-bhakṣaṇa, at the period of seven months and perhaps in nine months. Whatever she likes, she should eat. So that ceremony, new cloth, very nicely dressed, taking bath, all the children, not only her children but other children also, very nice foodstuff made, and sit together, and with the children the mother will eat. And the brāhmaṇas should be given some charity. They will chant Vedic hymns. The same thing is being observed by mother Yaśodā. That was the saṁskāra. Then utthāna.(?) Then anna-prāśana, when the child is... So much care is taken for the children. And these rascals are killing children. They are civilized? To avoid botheration. What a terrible civilization. And they are claiming to be civilized. Full day(?) pregnancy their children will be there. And man and woman... That is meant for the woman, but... And before childbirth there is propaganda to kill. What is that?

Śatadhanya: Abortion.

Prabhupāda: No, abortion when pregnancy. No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vasectomy. Vasectomy. They sterilize.

Prabhupāda: Sterilize.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Simply propaganda not to beget children. "Enjoy sex life." What is this horrible civilization?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's come in India. This new prime minister, he still says, "Our goal is," I think, "twelve million sterilizations this year," and he's holding Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: A horrible position. People have lost their freedom, their culture, spiritual life. Here so much care is taken for children, and they are so opulent. They are fully opulent and spending money lavishly for the welfare of the child. And they are spending money lavishly in the hotels, in the brothels, in slaughterhouse, the liquor shop, and kill. And this is going on as civilization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't understand at all how to be happy.

Prabhupāda: Most uncivilized. Most uncivilized. I have described to you, "two-legged animals."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dvi-pāda-paśu.

Prabhupāda: And this cannot allow, discussion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: It is civilization of two-legged animals. They will say now they are taking pleasure. Is there any guarantee that if one has got two children, the government will take care of everything? Two children or three children or hundred children, the government is not able to guarantee. Why this humbug?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Government cannot... This government cannot guarantee anything. They have no power.

Prabhupāda: So why they are so much anxious, "You should not overpopulate"? Even in these days in India, in the interior villages they invite you that "Please come. We have got enough grain, enough milk. You eat with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And they are going forcibly there to give this sterilization. They have no problem.

Śatadhanya: In Māyāpura we went on the boat down the Ganges. So we went... Even the poorest village man, he gave some banana leaves, some papaya--so opulent, fruits, vegetable, everything... (break)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Make āṭā, kneading very nicely, just like you do for cāpāṭi, but make lump, round balls, around the fire. The same fire upon, one pot rice, one pot òāl. And down, these small, round āṭā. Just like you make for cāpāṭi. Go on. Then, after some times, you see, everything is prepared. Boil very nicely. Then these ball should be put into ghee, and the òāl should be chaunce. It will be first-class.

Upendra: These āṭā balls, they...

Prabhupāda: Just like you knead āṭā. Same.

Upendra: And they're put into the mixture, I mean to say, the...

Prabhupāda: Make in the kandi(?) fire. Kandi fire is like this.

Upendra: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So upon the top there is one pot rice, one pot... And round that fire put these balls.

Upendra: Do you have to turn them?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Upendra: Turning them little...

Prabhupāda: When it is downside little blackish, then turn. It is difficult?

Upendra: No, it sounds very simple, almost too simple. You take these balls, bread balls...

Prabhupāda: Then put in a ghee pot.

Upendra: Hot ghee or just ordinary ghee?

Prabhupāda: Melted.

Upendra: Melted ghee.

Prabhupāda: And dip it and take it out.

Upendra: This, I think this is a... This sounds like you're cooking out in the jungle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be very digestive. You can try one day.

Upendra: Yes. Bread balls.

Prabhupāda: Put in kandi fire.

Upendra: Kandi?

Prabhupāda: This gobar, cow dung chip.

Upendra: Cow dung chip is called kandi?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yellow(?) chip. They say in Hindi, kandi.

Upendra: Kandi.

Prabhupāda: Or in Bengal it is called ghuìṭiyā. Ghuìṭiyā.

Upendra: Ghuìṭiyā. Kandi or ghuìṭiyā. And that's rice, òāl and... What are these balls? They have a special name?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is called laktha. Laktha.(?)

Upendra: Laktha.

Prabhupāda: Laktha.

Upendra: Laktha.

Prabhupāda: This is the foodstuff for the tourists.

Upendra: For the tourists?

Prabhupāda: A man is working. Now he has got with him rice, òāl, āṭā. Now anywhere he can collect this dry gobar and set fire. And he has got his loṭā, and he's cooking. Very palatable and digestive.

Upendra: The balls, laktha, they're looking... I mean, when they are finished, they are looking brown or black?

Prabhupāda: No, brown. Brown and blackish spot.

Upendra: Black spots.

Prabhupāda: Then it is prepared, very... Just like loaf.

Upendra: Yeah, bread loaf.

Prabhupāda: Then put it into ghee. That according to your... Put it long time or keep it or take it, as you can digest.

Upendra: It sounds... You may have instructed some devotees like this long time ago, because in San Francisco the devotees would sometimes make... Instead of making the cāpāṭi, they would make the balls and put it in the oven and then afterwards put butter on it and sometimes honey. They like honey. They dipped in honey. But it was the same thing, only put in the oven because we didn't have this cow dung chip. You may have instructed then. I never knew where they got this idea of putting the balls in the oven.

Prabhupāda: Oven is also good, but this is the best.

Upendra: This is the best. Best flavor, open fire.

Prabhupāda: So you can try any day.

Upendra: Kandi fire.

Prabhupāda: I may eat or not eat, but you try it, how it comes.

Upendra: Yes. First we'll get one...

Prabhupāda: Kandi.

Upendra: Kandi.

Prabhupāda: You can purchase. The kandis are going on. Ask somebody to..., who can keep it.

Upendra: And we put it in the clay stoves, the clay, the clay fire pot.

Prabhupāda: No.

Upendra: No? Just open on the ground?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No fire pot required. Simply gather together and set fire. That smoke is fire. It will increase. Just in a plate you can do it. This plate, the washing plate, that will do. It can contain four, five big kandi. That is sufficient.

Upendra: Rice, òāl and laktha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Laktha. You can make experiment.

Upendra: Yes. I would like that. Sometimes we might find ourselves having to walk in...

Prabhupāda: First of all purchase some kandi. And keep it in corners of... In this veranda keep it.

Upendra: It keeps... I see the farmers. They keep it in...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Upendra: ...big... For long time.

Prabhupāda: They go out, loaded. Ask the caukidāra. He'll call.

Upendra: Do you want to go to the temple now? It's nine.

Prabhupāda: Half past nine.

Upendra: Half past nine.

Prabhupāda: Where is Tamāla?

Upendra: I think in the next room. I haven't looked yet. Should I call him?

Prabhupāda: Half past nine.

Upendra: Half past nine. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...you can put masalā, bhadraka,(?) little salt, little turmeric.

Upendra: Anise.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Upendra: Anise?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And if the pots are made of earth, earthen pot, it is still better.

Upendra: When earthen pots are cooked with, they are finished afterwards?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Throw it. That was the Hindu system. The earthen pot is used daily, and it is thrown away, specially for Deity. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sitting on the rejected earthen pots. Philosophy discussion was going on.

Upendra: With His mother.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So earthen pot is so nice. Jagannātha Purī, they cook it in earthen pot and throw it away. It is very palatable. You can try an earthen pot.

Upendra: Yes. (aside:) I will make rice, òāl, and preparation called laktha, bread balls that go around a cow dung fire, in an earthen pot.

Prabhupāda: You can begin experiment, one, two, three, and become perfect.

Upendra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is very digestive, very palatable and suitable for me, this kind of food. Yes. It will automatically increase appetite. It is so nice.

Upendra: It all sounds very natural and wholesome, clay pot...

Prabhupāda: So you can try.

Upendra: ...cow dung fire, rice, òāl, bread.

 

Room Conversation                                       June 18, 1977, Vrndavan                                                          499232

Bhakti-prema: So how we will expose it before scientists?

Prabhupāda: We do not require to satisfy the scientists. We have to describe according to our book. That's all. If they can understand, let them understand. Otherwise... It is not our business to satisfy the so-called scientists. We are giving the real description. (break) That Sokimala.(?) (break) (indistinct)

                                                                                                                                                                        499337

Prabhupāda: Separate cooking may be... (break) ...cannot. Simply they have... Every cheap people goes there. What they have done? Tell me that "This they have done, very beneficial to the human society." What they have done?

Śatadhanya: They say that they are curing disease.

Prabhupāda: Disease? So what is the benefit? One disease after another disease...

Śatadhanya: They say that the life-span is getting more years.

Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. Formerly people used to live very long. Actually in this Kali-yuga the limitation is one hundred years. But who is living one hundred years?

Śatadhanya: Even less.

Prabhupāda: Fifty, sixty... Average India, thirty-five years. In your country a little more. Nobody lives hundred years. That is also another bluff. But even if you live for hundred years, does it mean that you have stopped death? Then what is the benefit? You are eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. You are eternal, but why you are dying? What the scientists have done? Na jāyate na mriyate. Eternal means one who has no birth, no death. But you have birth and death, so where is your scientists' help?

Upendra: The reason the original faith was placed in the scientists was because radio, airplanes, tape recorders have been manufactured, and people are impressed by these originally.

Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit? Without radio, people were dying, or with radio they are not living?

Upendra: They say they are living more comfortably.

Prabhupāda: Nonsense comfortably... They have changed the season? Is it comfortable? We have to take this cooling machine. What is the practical benefit? You can say that it is comfortable. That's all right. But that does not mean that you have moved the uncomfortable situation. You are struggling against. That much you can take credit. Real benefit is not there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Real unhappiness is this, that you are: "Why I am struggling? I don't want death." Actually why I am taking massage and so on, so on? So that I may not die. So where is the scientists' guarantee, "No, you'll not die"? Has he any...? You'll struggle only. That's all. The scientists cannot guarantee, "No, you'll not die." That is real guarantee. "You'll die comfortably." Hm? Die comfortably? Now there is no appetite. Where is the scientist, assuring, "Take"? What actual benefit they have done? They are giving some... Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff. Things without which we could do, such things are there. There were no motorcars. There was horse carriage and bullock carriage. Things were going on. Not that without this horseless motorcar society would have been vanquished. No. There are other alternatives. Rather, they were complicated. As soon as you ride on a car, there is anxiety, especially in your country, so many cars. When you ride on a car, full of anxiety... At any moment there may be accident. It is not comfortable. If you are full of anxiety. Aeroplane may be. At any moment you can die. It is your time only. They're going in good faith: "I shall go there." But before rising to the sky, finished, crash. So many airplane has been... So where is the comfort? As soon as you get on the aeroplane, you are in full anxiety that at any moment there may be crash. Is it not? Then where is comfort? Real comfort is without anxiety. That is real comfort. Cāṇakya Paṇòita has given, real comfort means, arni akyavad(?): "One who is not out of home and one who has no debts, he is happy." Nowadays people are going out of home, and everyone is debtor to the bank and so many... The economic machine is so made that one is put always in debts for some so-called comforts, and he's full of anxiety. The whole month he has to work to pay debts. (end)

Room Conversation                                    June 20, 1977, Vrndavana                                                           499566

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is why we want to have a very strong discussion in Bose Institute.

Prabhupāda: He wanted to give to the Western world that there is life in plants, the same Vedic knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you mention in one of your books that he has proved that the plants also have feelings.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is his contribution. He is the first man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you know him, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. He was also older than our father. But I have seen him in childhood, when I was ten, twelve years old. Very intelligent man, soft speaker. His... This Marconi's theory is his theory. The wireless... The thief has taken. They have stolen. And the British government gave credit to Marconi. He was very sad.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That everybody knows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The wireless, there was a system. That was his discovery. He was very sorry. The British government stole the idea and gave the credit to Marconi. The Britishers, they always wanted to minimize the value of India, that "They are not civilized. We are present there to make them civilized."

                                                                                                                                                                        499599

Prabhupāda: I have several times stressed that living being is a sample of God. If you study living being, you understand God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it's very true and also very scientific to propose this simile because life, being nonmaterial...

Prabhupāda: It is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ. But where is the difference? The difference is that eka is so important that He is the source of everything, and He is maintaining this bahūnām. That is... Both of them, quality, the same. But one is maintaining; others are being maintained. One is predominator; others are predominated. That is the difference. Āśraya, viśaya. So therefore when you come to the āśraya, that is perfection.

Pradyumna: We are all viśaya. Every living entity is viśaya, and Kṛṣṇa is the only...

Prabhupāda: Āśraya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everybody is making believe that they are āśraya, trying to gain the worship of others.

Prabhupāda: He cannot be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: False āśraya.

Prabhupāda: All these big, big leaders, they want to become āśraya. Gandhi wanted to be āśraya. And he was kicked out: "Get out! You are viśaya. You are trying to be āśraya." Immediately kicked out. That is false theory, Māyāvāda. Bhakativinoda āśraya... What is that song?

Pradyumna: Nāmāśraya kori' jatane tumi thākaha āpana kāje.

Prabhupāda: There is another... Yaśomatī...

Satadhanya: Yaśomatī-nandana, in that last line, Bhaktivinoda āśraya.

Prabhupāda: Āśraya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the spiritual master is the shelter.

Prabhupāda: No, spiritual master is under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.

Pradyumna: Spiritual master is also viśaya.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is viśaya, āśraya. Ultimate āśraya is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. There is no more superior āśraya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can't we say that because the spiritual master is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he is also...

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is āśraya, electrified. Sākṣād-dharitvena samastra-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Priya viśaya. Therefore he can act as āśraya. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Narottama dāsa Öhākura. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Others simply wasting time.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The mental attitude of the inquirer or the seeker in this bhakti process, you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this relationship between the jīva, or individual life, ātmā, and Paramātmā, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is based on psychological interactions, willing, feeling and the thinking, so the attitude should be humble and it should not be arrogant, and it should feel the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific community, and it was mildly accepted. They were just thinking that...

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the society there must be qualified brāhmaṇa. The all rascals, śūdras, professors...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in a scientific experiment we have so many conditions...

Prabhupāda: Just this morning I gave: bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa... Nanda Mahārāja. Bring that book.

Upendra: Downstairs.

Prabhupāda: Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda Mahārāja. Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ, bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa. Seven.... Eighth Chapter. There is mark. Read there. Just let...

Pradyumna:

tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ

saṁskārān kartum arhasi

bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ

janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ

Prabhupāda: Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. As soon as you take birth, brāhmaṇa is your guru. So where is brāhmaṇa? Tad-vijïānarthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Where is that guru? Therefore the society, chaotic condition.... As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam. There must be brāhmaṇas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society. In the animal society they are clever, enjoy. "How! How! How! How!" Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are everything. Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is the first time attempt is being made--"There must be brāhmaṇas"--this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge. Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool. You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. So where is brāhmaṇa? Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ.

Bhakti-cāru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well do. I have not said. Bhāgavata says. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. What are these leaders? Paśu. "Paśu? And they are so much held in estimation." Whom? By whom? Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: "They are in estimation by the dogs and hogs and camels and asses." Actually they have no position. The public is dog, hog, camel and.... And they are selecting one leader. So what he should be? Another big paśu, another big camel, another big ass. That's all. Śva-viò-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (Bengali) A big animal. These leaders, they are only big animals. Just like in the jungle, a lion. A very powerful. Then does it mean that he's human being? He's animal. May be an elephant or lion, but he's not human being. A human child is more important than this lion. It doesn't matter that the human child is taken away by the lion and immediately killed or carried. That does not make the lion very important. (Bengali) A big paśu.

 

 

 

The next printing should be again to the original way.

 

 

You require some occupational duty for earning your livelihood... That is allowed. But why more and more, more, more, more? For that, they are making scientific research how to satisfy senses. So kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. You require some sense gratification not for the senses, but because you have got a bad bargain, this body, just to maintain it, not more than. That is varṇāśrama-dharma.

 

And therefore the civilization should be athāto brahma-jijïāsā, simply to enquire about the Absolute Truth. And that is civilization. Now you can... Whatever little we have discussed, you can discuss now and close our book. How wrongly the whole civilization is carried on, how risky it is, that they do not know.

 

Before, it is described, before human birth, monkey, either monkey or lion or cow. Sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Monkey's tamo-guṇa, cow is sattva-guṇa, and lion is rajo-guṇa. This is the last animal life before human life, gradually. Everything is described. Darwins want to take credit, (laughs) nonsense…He was rascal speculator. He took the idea from the Vedic literature, and he wanted to take the credit himself, and the different hodgepodge theory, this is... Britishers took the idea from Vedic literature and presented in British way. Britisher wanted that "We are the monopolizers of all scientists, all big men." Sir Isaac Newton, then the, who is that, Darwin, big politicians, Gladstone, everything big--British. They wanted it. "British means all big men. Therefore we must rule over the world."

 

That was their business, to cheat some people for all time and cheat all people for some time. But not all people for all time. That is not possible.

 

This democracy is a demon-crazy. It has no value. It is simply waste of time and effort and no feeling, demon-crazy. I do not know who introduced this. In India still there is no demon-crazy. Indian king always. Everyone is taking part in politics. What is this nonsense? It is meant for the kṣatriyas. They can fight and defend. The rascals, bhangis, chamars, and they are also in politics. Harijanas... Every one of them vote, and everyone has got the right to become king, minister. Not this. The real thing they are missing, the mode of life, the aim of life. (break)...care. Everyone is theorizing, everyone is educated, and everyone is, they're hippie. That's all.

 

So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry…They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure…Just like in Hyderabad we are trying to make an ideal farm. If we can do, that will be success.

 

...I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion. That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope.

 

Keep this institution pure, not that we have to make it impure. Fighting, we want fighting. If we don't get, it will remain vacant, but we don't want to introduce impure. That should be a principle.

 

As soon as he's ten years old only, let him learn practically how to weave cloth, how to become carpenter, how become other craftsman. And in due course of time he can earn his... How to cultivate land... Why so many big, big universities for inviting everyone? There is no need. Educated means brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa will give real knowledge, and kṣatriyas will govern.

 

So we want to save the society from this downfall. At least keep one ideal. And that is our mission.

 

So there will be no scarcity of simple living and eating. We shall give nice food, milk, and place. So bring student and teach them. Then gradually increase. They will preach throughout the whole world.

 

You should not give unnecessarily honor to rascals, and you should keep your food grains very nicely, and don't quarrel, husband and wife. Then you become fortunate.

 

So these marriage things are done very psychologically, scientifically, so that they may become happy, and then, in peaceful mind, combine together, good cooperation, they make progress, spiritual. This is the plan, varṇāśrama-dharma. Very scientific. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that." Whatever Kṛṣṇa shall give--perfect. Nobody cares. They are suffering.

 

The guide is there, brāhmaṇa. The protection is there, kṣatriya. The food is there, vaiśya. And labor is there, śūdra. Combine together, live very happily, peacefully, in the society.

Brāhmaṇa is acting as brāhmaṇa; kṣatriya is acting as... They are both... No quarrel. No animosity. Everyone is cooperating with one another. The whole society becomes peaceful. Family becomes peaceful. The man personally becomes peaceful. Then he will be able to make progress. Kutaḥ śānti ayuktasya. If you are not peaceful, how you can attain? Or if you are not a devotee, you cannot be peaceful. Or if you are not peaceful, you cannot become devotee. But if you can become devotee, you become peaceful. So I have studied practically. Vedic way of simple life is the best. And unless you adopt the Vedic way of simple life, you'll be implicated, material desires. There is no end.

 

Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma. Kāmasya na indriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā. Na indriya-prītiḥ. We require sense gratification--we have got senses--but not for the matter of sense. Just to live.

 

Sometimes I become surprised how I have written this. Although I am the writer, still sometimes I am surprised how these things have come. Such vivid description. Where is such literature throughout the whole world? It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Every line is perfect.

 

Very happy spiritual society…I have thought it over, over. It was very, very nice. What is this nonsense society? Tin car?

 

It is a different type of civilization, to become sanctified and Kṛṣṇa conscious…Take minimum demand, be happy, and make progress. That is the platform of progress.

 

So just try to help them, help them, introduce them, and give everything. That is my request. As far as possible, I have such a big plan. Who'll merit the ideas?

 

Anyway, this gentleman was such a nice devotee. Oh…So yesterday I was thinking of him, and I said it in my... I am being purified by thinking of him… So all of a sudden I remember this Nanda Dulal Gosai.

 

Only the new thing I am doing--writing of books by the order of Guru Mahārāja. Otherwise, whatever I have introduced, I was trained up in childhood. I simply imitated.

 

I was initiated by that professional guru at the age of twelve years. Later on I rejected that…For real guru one can give up this professional guru.

 

So with that feeling I want to produce them also, my followers. Everyone should be like that.

 

In business circle they say, "To earn money is not difficult, but to spend money is difficult." That is intelligence…But now, to maintain this, to save this prestigious position, that is difficult. Little mismanagement, there may be so many difficulties.

 

That can be done very easily. It can be done very easily, provided government wants. And we can help. We have to follow simply the Bhagavad-gītā. That's all…Otherwise the Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of happy life and entrance, matriculation, and then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, graduate, and then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, postgraduate. We are therefore presenting three books. So if we follow, our life is successful.

 

Just like an animal is bound up in a place, and he's going round, here and here. He's thinking the world is round. The world is round. He does not accept that "I am conditioned." They have got now aeroplane, jet plane and so many. Go anywhere. They cannot go. Still, they are proud: "We have measured." This dog's obstinacy of this modern world has killed the whole civilization.

 

But for the welfare of the whole human society we can give them good advice if you like. That is our duty. Actually the legislative assembly should be filled up with men like us, Parliament, to give advice.

 

That one line of Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS. Satyaṁ śamo damas... There is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma... If they follow this program, everything will be... The face of the world will... Everything. Annād bhavanti parjanyaḥ….All prescription of material life, spiritual life, social life, political life, religious life, artistic life--Bhagavad-gītā is full of knowledge. At least in India there must be an institution that is strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā.

 

So here is one of the machine. That we are creating, the farms. Air fresh…Immediately you become refresh, immediately, as soon as you see the fresh milk, fresh vegetables.

 

So to create fortune we have to take this regulative principle, to become fortunate that someday he'll be able to meet somebody who is real guru and who will give him real guidance…So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way…Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important, to give them the fortune, not immediately but our immediate future, by acting in this way, he'll be fortunate.

 

And that is the mistake…That is going on all over the world. They want money. They're not satis... "More money. More money. More money." Why more money? If you can live comfortably with certain amount of money, be satisfied in that way. Why more?…Why more? Live very comfortably and be advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.

 

Where is happiness? Within the womb there was unhappiness, packed-up. When he comes down there is unhappiness. Then go to school, take education, appear for examination--that is unhappiness. Then grow up, then engage in some earning money--that is unhappiness. Then maintain your children, and that is unhappiness. Where is happiness, rascals? Rascal. Both are suffering…This is simply anarthas, unnecessary creating unhappiness. Unnecessary.

 

…Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and He is giving advice that "Do like this. You'll be happy in this life and next."

 

 

So fortunately we got right guru. He has given us the way how to live, and that is happiness… So many men, they have got money. We see practically. The whole European civilization, American civilization, is based on this fundamental idea that "Let us have money and we shall be happy." And nobody is happy. Nobody is happy, a single man. Very big, big buildings, very nice car, very nice road, but there is no question of happiness. Always restlessness….So I'm insisting you about this distribution of the book. That is a service. If you can do some pushing on these books some way or other, you get material profit; at the same time, it is service.

 

Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and pāni will come from up, not from the ground. Otherwise Gītā is false.

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's says he's trying to increase the book distribution by arranging a big door-to-door program.

Prabhupāda: That is my earnest desire. Fulfill it.

 

Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees. Unnecessarily he has to earn this money and pay to the millionaires, and he will keep three dozen motorcars, so another man will be engaged in motorcar industry. In this way time is being wasted without any search after spiritual realization. Time is wasted in such so-called technology advancement. And the real purpose of life, jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā, that is missing. And when you present that "This is the most important business of life," they say, "It is brainwashing." And they fight to check us, Communists and others, that "It is useless, God consciousness." (break) (long pause) So... Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Because they are missing the aim of life, they are committing suicide. And this varṇāśrama-dharma was planned in such a way that everyone would be spiritually advanced. The weaver will get, the potter will get, the blacksmith will get, the brāhmaṇa is already there, kṣatriya will get--everyone.

Where is that happiness gone? But these townsmen, they go there, pay them, and out of greediness they sell their own food only for money. And then they spend for drinking and cinema and... Horrible civilization.

 

...honest, satisfied with simple living. Where do...?…Everyone was satisfied with simple living. They did not want much income…Full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Because they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, there was no anxiety…They were also happy. They were also religious, according to their own way. Within, say, seventy years so much change has taken place. Horrible….Change, change for the worse.

 

So how simple living was….Milk products, grains. This was richness.

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my Guru Mahārāja.

 

But this neophyte, if they remain aloof from temple connection without attending the function, gradually they will be lost…Unless these things are continued, the karmīs' poison will spoil them…And now if he goes away after so much training, advancement, if they are lost, then that's a great loss for the Society… The karmīs' association is very contaminous. Asat-saìgī… Gṛhastha should not be dependent on Society. At the same time, he should not be independent of the Society. (laughs) …They should not live completely independent. That will be future danger…If live nearby temple, it is easier, or in the temple. But aloof, that is dangerous… If you want to marry, you work independently. Maintain yourself. And whatever you can contribute, do that… So my fear is that after training our men so much, if he's lost, that's a great loss. Then future of society becomes very hopeless…Temple is meant for retired men. Brahmacārī, sannyāsī, vānaprastha.

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He shouldn't expect the temple to maintain him.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

 

Prabhupāda: Mean these gṛhastha pūjārī. Gradually the pūjā will go to hell. They'll gradually glide down how to maintain family by showing the Deity.

 

 

 

 

I am stressing, therefore, book selling…Not opening temples.

 

 

Caitanya Mahāprabhu was simply crying. That is love. So that they do not understand, how crying can be pleasure.

 

 

Otherwise you just grow cotton and pluck. Problem solved. Get some lamb fur. It is not killing…Wool, yes. You make some warm cloth. Very easy to live.

 

 

How people were happy in those days. A small income, they were satisfied. Nowadays they simply want money. Nobody was unhappy even if he had very small income. He would adjust, and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things we have seen. I have seen that even the maidservant, what to speak of gentlemen. Where those days gone? And nobody was hungry. What is this nonsense civilization? Simply want of money and unsatisfied in every step. Especially in the Western countries they're becoming hippie. Why? The training is different.

 

 

Very encouraging letter. Very encouraging letter. I am very pleased. If our farm project is organized all over the world...

 

 

Then Kṛṣṇa will not help. Just like the father gives you money. If you squander that, He'll be very sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion, then human civilization will be finished.

There is no hope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY FOUR

Room Conversation                                      June 22, 1977, Vrndavana                                                         499937

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no index. It's not a new Bhāgavatam. There's no index in this Bhāgavatam. Munayaḥ sādhu...? "The Effects of Kali-yuga" chapter? Is that the verse, about the effects of Kali-yuga? No. (background talking, looking for verse)

munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ

bhavadbhir loka-maìgalam

yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno

yenātmā suprasīdati

"munayaḥ--of the sages; sādhu--this is relevant; pṛṣṭaḥ--questioned; aham..."

Prabhupāda: No? What is that? Sādhu? What is that? Munayaḥ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says, "sādhu--this is relevant."

Prabhupāda: Relevant?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what it's translated as, "this is relevant." May be a mistake.

Devotee (1): It's a mistake.

Prabhupāda: Munayaḥ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Munayaḥ--of the sages; sādhu--this is relevant..."

Prabhupāda: The nonsense, they are... They are correcting my trans... Rascal. Who has done this? Munayaḥ is addressing all these munis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's addressing the munis?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sādhus, great sages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sādhu means they are very pure. What can be done if it goes there and these rascals becomes Sanskrit scholar and do everything nonsense? One Sanskrit scholar strayed, that rascal... He take... What is his...? Śacī-suta? Śacī-sandana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya-śacīnandana?

Prabhupāda: And they are maintaining them. Different meaning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Bhavadbhiḥ--by all of you; loka--the world; maìgalam-- welfare; yat--because; kṛtaḥ--made; kṛṣṇa--the Personality of Godhead; sampraśnaḥ--relevant question; yena--by which; ātmā-- self; suprasīdati--completely pleased." Translation: "O sages..."

Prabhupāda: Now here is "O sages," and the word meaning is "of the munis." Just see. Such a rascal Sanskrit scholar. Here it is addressed, sambodhana, and they touch(?) it--"munayaḥ--of the munis." It is very risky to give to them for editorial direction. Little learning is dangerous. However proper Sanskrit scholar, little learning, dangerous. Immediately they become very big scholars, high salaried, and write all nonsense. Who they are? (pause) Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "O sages, I have been..."

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be reliable. They can do more harm. Just see here the fun(?).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We're finding out in the Fifth Canto that there're words that are so off, the meaning is completely changed, completely changed. I mean, in the three chapters that we read, Bhakti-prema Mahārāja made at least half a dozen corrections of serious corrections. They had changed the meaning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of the mistakes in the numbers, the figures.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, they're all...

Prabhupāda: So how they can be reliable, so-called, this way...? (background whispering) Hm?

Yaśodā-nandana: In the Gurukula we were teaching Éśopaniṣad class to the children. So we took... (break) ...Prabhupāda and the words which the recent edition of the Press is wrong. Many changes were brought. They were trying to make better English, but sometimes, to make better English, I think they were making philosophical mistakes also. There is no so much need of making so much better English. Your English is sufficient. It is very clear, very simple. We have caught over 125 changes. They're changing so many things. We are wondering if this is necessary. I will show you today. I have kept the book.

Prabhupāda: I know that these rascals are doing. What can be done? How they can be relied on?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not the responsibility of the BBT trustee, to see these things don't change without Prabhupāda's sanction?

Prabhupāda: And Rāmeśvara is indulging this. The great rascal is that Jagannātha? He's there in Los Angeles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha dāsa?

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Indian devotee (2): Jagannātha-suta.

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha-suta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No...

Prabhupāda: And the one rascal is gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāi.

Prabhupāda: It is starting. What can I do? These cannot... These rascals cannot be educated. Dangerous. Little learning, dangerous. So how to correct? The leader of these dangerous--Rādhā-vallabha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rādhā-vallabha?

Prabhupāda: Hm. He's a dangerous, who maintains these rascal with this work. He'll always have questions and alteration. That is his business. That is American business. They take that always. What can I do? Ultimate, it goes for editorial. They make changes, such changes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your original work that you're doing now, that is edited by Jayādvaita. That's the first editing.

Prabhupāda: He is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is good. But then, after they print the books, they're going over. So when they reprint...

Prabhupāda: So how to check this? How to stop this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should not make any changes without consulting Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: But they are doing without any authority.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think we should make whole survey, all books already printed, before printing the next batch and check any mistakes so that it should be all corrected. Otherwise, if the scholars find out that there are so many mistakes in the books, then the quality and the appreciation will be reduced.

Girirāja(?): (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. We find so far that they are appreciating so much within the scholarly circle, and we want to maintain that actually.

Prabhupāda: Very serious feature. It is not possible for me to check, and they are doing all nonsense, freedom. (pause)

Yaśodā-nandana: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What to do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Svarūpa Dāmodara's point, that all the books should now be checked before they're reprinted again... And they have to be checked not by some so-called learned Sanskrit man but by a learned devotee. Just like you always favored Jayādvaita because his Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Jayādvaita, Satsvarūpa...

Yaśodā-nandana: Bhakti-prema, Satsvarūpa is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Bhakti-prema... That's a good solution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, the real point is that the Sanskrit is often not translated properly in the translation, what Nitāi and others have done.

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. That's... He's finding out guru and job for filling the belly. That is the latest news.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he doing?

Prabhupāda: To find out some job to fill up the belly. Otherwise he'll starve if he doesn't get any job. And he's finding out guru. Job-guru. Now do the needful. Otherwise everything will be spoiled. These rascal editorial... That Easy Journey, original, this (indistinct) Hayagrīva has changed so many things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He actually took out the whole part about their going to the moon being childish. He deleted the whole section.

Yaśodā-nandana: Also in the Bhāgavatam, where Prabhupāda was talking about Lord Buddha... You mentioned that if the followers of Lord Buddha do not close the slaughterhouse, there is no meaning to such a caricature. That word was very nice. But in new book that word is not there any more. They have pulled the word. The meaning of the word is not... So many times.

Prabhupāda: It is very serious situation. Rāmeśvara is in direct...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think they're working too independently without consulting properly.

Yaśodā-nandana: Sometimes they appeal that "We can make better English," so they change like that, just like in the case of Éśopaniṣad. There are over a hundred changes. So where is the need? Your words are sufficient. The potency is there. When they change, it is something else.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's actually a very dangerous mentality.

Yaśodā-nandana: What is it going to be in five years? It's going to be a different book.

Prabhupāda: So you... What you are going... It is very serious situation. You write one letter that "Why you have made so many changes?" And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvarūpa that "This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim." The next printing should be again to the original way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should have a board of Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those two men are both in Los Angeles now.

Prabhupāda: So write them immediately that "The rascal editors, they are doing havoc, and they are being maintained by Rāmeśvara and party."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes there's a fear that some word will be unpopular, and on account of desire to gain popularity or acceptance, they lessen the strength of the word. They change the word. They choose a word which is more so-called acceptable.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Same thing is with the Back to Godhead. Just publish some photo, try to change so many things in order to make it popularized. They have been doing that even with the philosophy. (pause)

Śatadhanya: I remember when Rāmeśvara was here, he had mentioned that in one article you had denounced the Christians strongly, so he said he left one part out because he was afraid there would be a bad reaction from the Christians in America.

Prabhupāda: That is possible. That is possible. He should be careful. Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think in addition to Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita checking the English, that Bhakti-prema Mahārāja has to check all the Sanskrit of all of the books... He's translating now, so as he's translating, he can check. He's going, starting from the First Canto.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think this is very appropriate, because checking English doesn't have any meaning without checking the Sanskrit, the original.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one verse in the Fifth Canto. From the way that they translated it, there was no way that anyone could possibly have understood what the verse meant. I mean, it was made unintelligible by the translation. So we were reading. Finally Bhakti-prema says, "Wait a minute. This translation is wrong. They have edited an extra statement here that is not there, and it makes it completely not understandable." Then suddenly, when he corrected the Sanskrit, it was easy to understand. It was very clear.

Prabhupāda: So what to do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I think we just have to be slow but sure. We have to go over all of the books and make sure that they're perfect before they're printed again. Not be in such a rush, print, print, and print all nonsense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One time I had a strong talk with Rāmeśvara Mahārāja about our article for printing in the Back to Godhead. I didn't want them to be printed in Back to Godhead because they made so many changes...

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has dared to change yours also?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They change so many things in our article. And it was on the telephone. I was speaking to him in Atlanta from Los Angeles. And I told him that "This article should not be printed because they have made so many changes." And I didn't like that. Then they answered that "It has already been offset, and BBT policy is always to be rushing. It's always BBT policy." Then I told him that "If you sacrifice quality on the strength of rushing, then it is your business, but that's not my way, so please don't print it." But in any case, they have printed anyway that article. And we all had a bad reaction.

Prabhupāda: So you bring this to Satsvarūpa. They cannot change anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we stopped writing article for Back to Godhead since then because...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, I think, with Satsvarūpa there, you won't have that problem of changing like that. He wrote a letter saying that one of his first things is that he will not change what is given there unless... He will not make changes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they consult us, even with changing, that's all right. But they just edit here and there and cut it out, certain things. They're changing the whole meaning. And that makes sometimes nonsense instead of making sense.

Prabhupāda: So on the whole, these dangerous things are going on. How to check it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There has to be strong philosophical leaders who can check this, like Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have to also be included in the decisions of the BBT. It can't simply be that managers make decisions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without their sanction, there will be... Let them... These all rascals...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One time in that article they made a change. Saying that, the whole Vaiṣṇava philosophy became Māyāvādī in that scientific article. So I told them that "You are better than..., a better (indistinct)." It all become Māyāvādī, so it became all mad. That is why I strongly told them that "This shouldn't be the way. If you want to change, you have to consult with those who are writers."

Prabhupāda: So they are doing very freely and dangerously. And this rascal is always after change, Rādhā-vallabha. He's a great rascal. (pause) Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reads translation and purport, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 1.2.5)

Prabhupāda: Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Here is... So this is the aim, that one should know Kṛṣṇa. And the human life is meant for that purpose. That is the distinction between animal life and human life. Therefore the next verse is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Find out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

Prabhupāda: So life is divided into two, that body and the soul. Actually the soul requires satisfaction. So unless the soul approaches Adhokṣaja--adhokṣaja means beyond the sense perception of bodily understanding--there is no possibility. So we can start later this chapter. Next verse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Translation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next verse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Translation.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Next verse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jïānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

Prabhupāda: So this perfection can be achieved by direct devotional service to Vāsudeva. Next verse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

Prabhupāda: So unless one comes to this position, to understand Vāsudeva, whatever he is doing or occupational duty, that is waste of time. It is waste of time in this way, that the body will change, so whatever he has done in this life, body will change. So it is waste of time. After the change of the body, everything is finished. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

dharmasya hy āpavargyasya

nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate

nārthasya dharmaikāntasya

kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ

Prabhupāda: The dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa... Generally people to religion for improving economic condition. It is going on. They go to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." And they'll go to the temple: "O mother Kālī, give me this. O father Śiva, give me this." So they take it for economic development, dharma. But that is is not the proper way. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Dharma should be executed for stopping this material condition of life, apavarga. Pavarga. This material life is pavarga. Pa means pariśrama, hard labor. And pha means phena, so hard labor that foams comes. Pa, pha, ba. And still it is baffled, vyartha. Bha: and always fear. And ma means death. So pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. So dharma means to stop this pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is apa...?

Prabhupāda: Varga. It is pa-varga. There are five vargas, ka-varga, ca-varga, and the pa-varga. Very scientific. A-pa-varga. And that is the meaning. But these rascals, they have taken to increase the pa-varga, that śrama eva hi kevalam. The basic principle of dharma is wrong. Dharma is meant for stopping this pa-varga. And they are increasing this pa-varga. And the next word?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

kāmasya nendriya-prītir

lābho jīveta yāvatā

jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā

nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ

Prabhupāda: So then question will be that "If we do not get some economic facilities, so how we can live?" And that's a fact. Therefore it is said here, dharmasya hi... No. What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmasya, sense gratification, required, but not for sense gratification's sake. It requires only for living comfortably. You try to make the economic development, that is all right. But they have taken simply for sense gratification. "I have got one car, and there must be another three cars for my children and wife." This is going on, kāma, increasing. Economic development... You require some occupational duty for earning your livelihood... That is allowed. But why more and more, more, more, more? For that, they are making scientific research how to satisfy senses. So kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. You require some sense gratification not for the senses, but because you have got a bad bargain, this body, just to maintain it, not more than. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. So there are so many problems we have created. They do not understand. And this civilization are simply gratifying senses, so dangerous. And dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And they create a position by very, very hard labor, and the body is changed. Then śrama eva hi kevalam. What benefit you get? This life, you make a skyscraper building, three dozen cars, and next life, you become a dog. Then what is your profit? What do you gain? They do not gain anything. So that change of body is in nature's hand. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. That is not in your hand. When the body will change, you cannot say, "No, no, I'll not change," because that is not under your dictation. So is not simply waste of time?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Bhāgavata says so clearly, śrama eva hi kevalam.

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not understand. This is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vadanti tat tattva-vidas....

Prabhupāda: That's all right. And therefore the civilization should be athāto brahma-jijïāsā, simply to enquire about the Absolute Truth. And that is civilization. Now you can... Whatever little we have discussed, you can discuss now and close our book. How wrongly the whole civilization is carried on, how risky it is, that they do not know. Now, what the materialist has to say in this connection?

Śatadhanya: They say everything is getting better.

Prabhupāda: What is that better?

Yaśodā-nandana: Well, a few hundred years ago there was no airplanes, no cars, no facilities...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but when you become a dog next life, then what is your gain? You are not going to use this airplane. You have to make a rest in this car, in this seat. What you are going to do that about? Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Kṛṣṇa says most authoritative statement and giving the example, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... So how you can check this dehāntara?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They argue that "We are getting people to live longer now than they used to live."

Prabhupāda: After all, you'll have to change. In a false platform, to live longer, is that very great profit?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, as we improve material life...

Prabhupāda: No, where is improved? You are going to be a dog, suppose. Where is your improvement?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's an illusion.

Prabhupāda: They lose.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are thinking that we are improving, but actually we are not solving the problems.

Śatadhanya: You said the other day that if we analyze what the scientists have done, we will see that they have actually done nothing beneficial, no benefit. Whatever they have done has no benefit, simply some comfort of the body. But what benefit it has?

Prabhupāda: Just like they have improved... A man is going to die. By oxygen, by other, other, he may live for a few minutes more. They say, "This is improvement."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's creating more problems.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we read from the Fifth Canto the facility of life is so much better on other planets, anyway, so they can't even begin to imitate that other higher material planets, what to speak of the spiritual...

Prabhupāda: They do. Karmīs do that. They want to go there after death. Therefore karma-kāṇòa. By ritualistic ceremonies they want to be promoted. Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. By improving the sattva-guṇa, you can go to higher planetary system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would that be considered more intelligent than the gross...

Prabhupāda: No. No. Because after all, you have to die. Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. Again you have to come down.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to tell them that "We cannot completely negate the scientific advancement. We cannot simply say that what you are all doing is nonsense." At the same time, we can bring out that "Yes, you are doing, making an attempt to find a solution or comfortable situation. It's not possible," that "There must be something beyond. It's not enough."

Prabhupāda: And that is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is the first citing. There are two kinds of occupational duty. The one is inferior, going down, and other is superior, go back to home.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Satisfaction of the soul, Śrīla Prabhupāda just mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the Adhokṣaje.

Prabhupāda: Adhokṣaje. Yato bhaktiḥ. When you become a devotee, then you'll go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is required.

Prabhupāda: That is the aim of life. So everything is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And then these unfortunate rascals, they are distorting. What can I do? How to stop it?

Devotee (3): But they will argue, "Why should we accept that there will be a next life?"

Prabhupāda: Rascal, why you are accepting old age? You are young man. You have to accept, become. Why you are accepting, rascal? Answer this.

Devotee (3): I don't know.

Prabhupāda: So then why do you talk nonsense? "Why shall I accept?" You have to accept, nonsense. That is the law of nature. Do you think you'll not become an old man like me? "I'll not accept." You have to accept. So what is the use of saying like that, foolish rascals?

Devotee (3): So they must accept that...

Prabhupāda: They must accept. They have to accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: You are all young men. Who wants to become an invalid man like me? With three men I have to walk. Nobody wants. But you have to accept. I did not like. But you have to accept, compulsory. What is the use of saying, "Why shall I accept?" You... "Why?" There is no question of "Why?" You have to. That is the control.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They might argue that...

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argue? I'll beat you with shoes. You have to accept. What is the use of argument?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like a madman.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Nature will beat you with shoes. You have to accept.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll say, "We have seen old men, but we have never seen anyone change their body."

Prabhupāda: This is not change? You are a young man; now you have become old. Then you have no eyes. You are blind. I was not a young man?

Devotee (3): But they will argue, "What is the necessary..."

Prabhupāda: What is the use of argument? You have to change. You are going to be hanged. There is no argument. You must be hanged.

Devotee (3): But why a dog's body?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, why a dog's body? We have seen that you became an old man from a young man, but we never saw a man become a dog.

Prabhupāda: So you do not... You live. You go along with him. You'll see. Change means that... That is their defect. The change... Change means you have to accept any change. You see or not see. Tathā dehāntaram. Deha, the body, will change. You have got eight millions bodies. It can change to any one. There is no question of seeing. The suggestion is that you have to change. Now, in which body you are going to change, that you cannot see. So how you claim that "I cannot see"? That you cannot... There will be change. So how the change will take? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa, by superior administration and by your karma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Subtle law.

Prabhupāda: Subtle law.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Beyond physical laws.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, physical law. Just like worm will change into butterfly. You can see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science accepts that all the cells in human body changes completely in seven years.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Every seven years...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...all change. So change is actually...

Prabhupāda: So that change takes place according to your mentality. You are subtle thing, psychological. One man is thief. By change, he can become a saintly person. One man is saintly person; he becomes a thief. So that change, according to three qualities... Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. You cannot ascertain immediately because you are changing from sattva-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to tamo-guṇa. So how you can be ascertained? But there will be change. That is fixed. So we have to take this word change. So you cannot expect what changes. Are you going to be dog or hog or god? That will depend on your work. How you can expect to see, that "I do not see"? But that is not certain. There are 8,400,000's of different types of change of body. But you have to change. Not that you have to become a dog. You can become a demigod. Ürdhvaṁ gacchanti... But change is certain. So if change takes place, then where is your position? Whatever you have done--śrama eva hi kevalam.

Yaśodā-nandana: They will say, "We can perceive all the changes during this life. We agree..."

Prabhupāda: And next life or this life, rascal...

Yaśodā-nandana: "Because the last change, at death, the last transmigration to another body, because we cannot see according to our scientific experience..."

Prabhupāda: So you die, what you will see? Your eyes are taken away. What you will see? You say, "I die." Then what you will see after death? A dead man has got eyes. Can he see?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they say, "How have you seen, that you are telling us what will...?"

Prabhupāda: Seen by intelligence. (break) We are accepting everything like that.

Devotee (3): So they will say, "We accept there is a change of bodies. So then life is simply changing bodies. There is no more than this, simply..."

Prabhupāda: No, there is stoppage of change of body when you...

Devotee (3): How so?

Prabhupāda: How you... How you know? You are a rascal. What do you know? You learn it. You are rascal. What you know? You become intelligent. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. You are a rascal. What do you know? The difficulty is that you are rascal; you want to take the position of a learned man. And that is your fault. You do not accept your position, that you are a rascal.

Devotee (3): So first we must...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): They must become a little humble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They must know that every knowledge-acquiring process requires certain conditions to be fulfilled in order to understand it, that those conditions have to be acquired. Otherwise it's not possible.

Prabhupāda: So that is the difficulty at the present... A rascal is arguing. What is the meaning of his argument? He's a rascal. It has no meaning.

Devotee (3): All procrastination.

Prabhupāda: So read Bhāgavatam very seriously. Then your rascaldom will go. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata... All rascals, for their knowledge the Bhāgavata was written. Mūòho nābhijānāti, mohito nābhijānāti. The difficulty is a rascal is thinking himself as very advanced in knowledge. That is the difficulty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the trouble with the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are creating greatest trouble.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They think that the destiny of man lies in their hands. Sometimes they say like that.

Prabhupāda: That is yes. A rascal can become intelligent man. That's good. But without becoming intelligent, remaining rascal, they are living. Otherwise there is no hindrance. I may be rascal, but in future, I may be intelligent by education, by... That is not checked. But the difficulty is that he remains a rascal and claims to be intelligent. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. We don't say that "Because you are rascal, you shall continue to remain a rascal." No. You become intelligent. Take advantage of intelligent person. But you remain a rascal and claim to be intelligent, and that is... They are doing. Little learning is dangerous. We say that don't remain rascal. Tamaso mā: "Don't remain in darkness." We say; we are canvassing. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose, that "You are rascal, but don't remain a rascal. Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gama. That is our business. But this rascal, he'll remain in rascaldom, and he will claim that "I am not." That is the difficulty. Take enlightenment. Bhāgavata is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. And become intelligent. But don't claim to be intelligent while you are on the rascal platform. That is not good. That is suicidal. So very carefully read Bhāgavatam. Don't continue to remain rascal. Then life is successful. This is the Western obstinacy. They want to remain in the rascal platform, and still they claim. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This theory that life comes from matter, it is not settled up. Still, they are getting Nobel Prize.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big amount of money goes with that prize.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Supported by all the...

Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. He's a rascal, and he's appreciated by another rascal. This is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even the government is behind this research. NASA and federal funding government, they spend billions of dollars on this research.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Then what is the government? Another combination of rascals, that's all. They have no knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of them are also beginning to feel that...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that must...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...there is something wrong...

Prabhupāda: That must be.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...with the whole approach.

Prabhupāda: That must be there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like there is a physicist in Princeton. His name is Dyson, Freeman Dyson(?).

Prabhupāda: That is inquisitive, jijïāsu. That is there, a class of men, jijïāsu. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. They are pious. "Actually what is the truth?" Jijïāsu. And jïānī. Two third class, fourth class, and two, first class, second class. The first class, second class, is jïānī jijïāsu, and third class, fourth class, ārto arthārthī. They approach God. The third class, fourth class, those who are in need of money or in distress and seeking the favor of Kṛṣṇa, they are third class, fourth class. And the jijïāsu and jïānī, they are first class, second class. Inquisitive, they want to know the truth. That is first class. Jijïāsu--"What is that first class?" He is second class. And ārto arthārthī, he is in need. If he gets some money, then he forgets God. That's all. His disease is cured. Then finished business. "O God, give us our bread." As soon as I get bread, then finished church.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people join our movement like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. But they are still pious because they have come to God. And those who are very, very miscreant, they, at any circumstance, they'll never. Dog's obstinacy. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūòhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They are last class.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Few years ago there was a German physicist Schroedinger(?). He wrote a book called What is Life? And he said life could be understood just like physics. Then this Freeman Dyson(?)... He's a very renowned scientist in Princeton University. He gave a lecture in our university at Emory about few months ago. He was speaking about cosmic manifestations of the universe. And I asked a question about this Schroedinger's(?) approach, saying that Schroedinger is a very well known and Nobel Prize-winning physicist. He stated that life could be understood in terms of physics and chemistry. I asked him, "What do you think about this approach?" His answer was "Schroedinger did not know at that time that the physics of modern science, especially quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness." That means life is a different entity than normal physics and chemistry. So they are starting to realize, at least to some extent, that life could be completely different process than was planned about few years ago.

Prabhupāda: So on the whole, they have not come to the platform to know about life. That's all right.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Morning Conversation                                  June 23, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         500169

Prabhupāda: ...and prostitutes. So...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's even mentioned in the Kṛṣṇa book. Prostitutes came out of Dvārakā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Calcutta in our childhood I have seen many big, big prostitutes, Vaiṣṇavī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: All, their behavior, their living... Simply they were not married. They were kept by some big men. Otherwise everything was so nice. Big, big prostitutes.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: There was a big temple of prostitutes in Calcutta, Kach-Kamil.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kach...?

Prabhupāda: Kach-Kamil. Kach-Kamil means the gentleman who kept her, he was a big glass merchant. So the temple was decorated with mirrors and glass, and her name was Kamil, so Kach-Kamil temple. Still there are. Everyone was Kṛṣṇa conscious, either poor man, retired man or prostitute or gentleman or rich man--everyone. The society itself was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There wasn't any influence of that Ramakrishna Mission yet?

Prabhupāda: No Ramakrishna... Who cares for?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had no... I mean, nowadays they are so widespread in their effect.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Oh... Because people are degraded. Who cared for Ramakrishna?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In those days it was much purer.

Prabhupāda: Still who cares for Ramakrishna?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now people are hodgepodge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say, in those days people were a little bit more authentic in their, you know...

Prabhupāda: Degraded, most. There is no principles. Formerly there was a standard principle. Then they fall down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what did the British think of that principle?

Prabhupāda: British gave liberty about our culture and religion. They never interfered. That was their credit. They knew it. If they interfered with their internal affairs, then they will be lost. That was Queen. She guided them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were expert like that.

Prabhupāda: No, they were very good politician. (pause) I can say, in the British period there was no scarcity, and leniency. I recall the way. Didn't require... And when they like... With three hundred rupees they were so happy. Now you calculate that three hundred rupees means ten thousand. So where is that ten thousand rupees?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, only the wealthier...

Prabhupāda: For children one anna tiffin is sufficient. One anna. (looking at monkeys) You see?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, a whole family of them. This is their feeding place, the garbage can here. They don't come when they see people, though. Around all the holy places I always see a lot of monkeys and cows in India. Is there some reason, special, about... I mean, cows, there's obvious reason, but what about the monkeys? Why are they around the holy places?

Prabhupāda: Because they are fed by the visitors.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They like them. The visitors like the monkeys.

Prabhupāda: Here you'll find many of...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember in the Rādhā-Govinda Temple in Jaipur, oh, the monkeys, they lived there as regular citizens practically. And they're very friendly there. They come up and they hold their hand out.

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa was giving the monkeys. Monkeys were pet, not as enemy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa treated the monkeys as a pet?

Prabhupāda: Friends.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friends.

Prabhupāda: He was giving butter. In the forest playing with them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imitating also.

Prabhupāda: Playing. If you give them to eat something, they become friendly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Before, it is described, before human birth, monkey, either monkey or lion or cow. Sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Monkey's tamo-guṇa, cow is sattva-guṇa, and lion is rajo-guṇa. This is the last animal life before human life, gradually. Everything is described. Darwins want to take credit, (laughs) nonsense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he could only see as deep as the body. He could not see it was the soul...

Prabhupāda: Hm. He was rascal speculator. He took the idea from the Vedic literature, and he wanted to take the credit himself, and the different hodgepodge theory, this is... Britishers took the idea from Vedic literature and presented in British way. Britisher wanted that "We are the monopolizers of all scientists, all big men." Sir Isaac Newton, then the, who is that, Darwin, big politicians, Gladstone, everything big--British. They wanted it. "British means all big men. Therefore we must rule over the world." All Lords, Sirs, and this and that... They wanted to prove, "The only big men of the universe, they take birth in England, and therefore we should rule over the world." (laughs) And this was their pledge.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For a while they did a pretty good job.

Prabhupāda: No, artificially you can do for a while. Unless it is sound footing, it cannot stay. You can cheat some people for some time..., no, all time. You can cheat some people for all time, and all people for some time, not all people for all time. This is the... That was their business, to cheat some people for all time and cheat all people for some time. But not all people for all time. That is not possible.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation) Britishers made a mistake. They made a empire, very good, but they did not rule for the people. They wanted to rule over the world for their own sake, London. Their policy was all big, big brain from England should go outside, earn money and bring in London, exploit. Therefore it is... Otherwise it was a very grand plan. They were very nice. This was suggested by one of their viceroy in India, Lord Curzon, that "India is a vast country, very cultured country. Don't try to exploit them. Better send one royal family member to become king here and rule as one empire. Don't discriminate." The others did not like the idea. "Make England's men king in India. The people in general, they like king. And rule over them and have good relationship." These rascals, they did not like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if they had, though, nowadays they would have been kicked out.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even had they put in a king in the modern days, the tendency is to kick out the foreigners.

Prabhupāda: No, if they had ruled nicely, according to the Indian principles... The Muhammadans did it, and they ruled over eight hundred years. The Britishers could not do it. They could not rule over two hundred years. Within two hundred years finished. And during Muhammadan period there were many, many powerful Sikhs. Staying, they did not like to drive away the Muhammadans. Whole Rajputana was full of big, big kings. They could have thrown away them. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The Rajput kings.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they did not do. They cooperated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Rajput is Rajasthan?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Akbar appointed this Mansingha, who has made these temples. He was commander-in-chief. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of the Moslem army.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The all governmental power was in the hand of Indians. Only the Muslims were there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they did what the Curzons suggested.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they know. And besides that, they did not exploit. Whatever enjoyment they did--within India, not that taking away the money outside India. Therefore it was very good relationship. And Indian people, they do not mind who is king. "We pay our tax. That's all." That is the attitude from the very beginning. The general people, they did not mind whether Kurus or war(?) will reign over or the Pāṇòavas. "We don't mind. You become fight. You become king. We give our tax. That's all." So there was no fight with the subject between king and citizens. This democracy is a demon-crazy. It has no value. It is simply waste of time and effort and no feeling, demon-crazy. I do not know who introduced this. In India still there is no demon-crazy. Indian king always. Everyone is taking part in politics. What is this nonsense? It is meant for the kṣatriyas. They can fight and defend. The rascals, bhangis, chamars, and they are also in politics. Harijanas... Every one of them vote, and everyone has got the right to become king, minister. Not this. The real thing they are missing, the mode of life, the aim of life. (break)...care. Everyone is theorizing, everyone is educated, and everyone is, they're hippie. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everyone is what?

Prabhupāda: Hippie. The result is hippie. In Western countries I see and lament. So many percent of their population are hippies. What is the benefit? They cannot do anything, useless population. They cannot utilize. And in America the Vietnam was selected--"Let them die," in disappointment. Useless waste of... They require... Could not manage. "Let them die." Marawara gar leka.(?) When we have finished all sorts of condemnation, we say, "You die." That's all. Tell them. They have no idea how to reform this degraded population. This is the only way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In New York I have seen in ordinary places how niggardly they live. No human being can live like that. In good places, nicely dressed, nicely... But in East... East Village or something?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in the East Village.

Prabhupāda: No gentleman can live. So niggardly. The shops, the neighborhood, the area, all...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's where you went to begin the movement.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not select that. Unknowingly I was thrown. I did not know which quarter is good way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who showed you that area?

Prabhupāda: Mukunda. I asked him that "Find out some upper class...." He found out that 26 Second Avenue. (laughs) I did not know. That's all. Anyone...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Humble beginning.

                                                                                                                                                                        500293

Prabhupāda: ...material body. So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry. So because he's materially attracted, he'll say that "If I do industry, I get hundred rupees. Why shall I plow for five rupees?" That simply they do not know. Gandhi's plan failed there. If materially they are after material enjoyment, so if he gets hundred rupees, he thinks that "I will enjoy more. Why shall I be sticking to the service?" Then the village program will fail. They will go for the hundred rupees. That civilization they do not know. After all, they are all rascals. They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That they won't take.

Prabhupāda: No, that is... Therefore it will be a failure. We are... Just like in Hyderabad we are trying to make an ideal farm. If we can do, that will be success.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was recently an article. Previously there was oil shortage in the world. Now they are predicting that there is going to be a water shortage.

Prabhupāda: Everything will be shortage. That is nature's arrangement. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. They cannot make any plan successful without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long they'll insist upon this point, that "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we shall do everything successfully..." That is durāśā. As long as they persist on this, they'll remain rascals. Every plan will be failure. Durāśā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Nature, material nature, is against them. No plan will be allowed to be...

Just trace out the history. Every plan has been unsuccessful, either Eastern, Western. Napoleon made plan, Hitler made plan, Gandhi made plan. So many rascals, they made plan. Everyone's plan, impersonalist, they are unsuccessful at the end. Gandhi was killed, Napoleon was dishonored, Mussolini was killed, Hitler nowhere... Take all these big, big...

                                                                                                                                                                        500310

Prabhupāda: ...I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion. That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope. And it is now being effective worldwide. Why India should not maintain?

 

Room Conversation                                     June 24, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                          500340

Prabhupāda: Keep this institution pure, not that we have to make it impure. Fighting, we want fighting. If we don't get, it will remain vacant, but we don't want to introduce impure. That should be a principle.

                                                                                                                                                                        500397

hari hari biphale, janama goìāinu,

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,

jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

This is going on. Knowingly they are drinking poison, and we are trying to save them. Very difficult task. Jāniyā śuni... This Narottama dāsa's song, a very practical and very easily applica... Jāniyā śuniyā... Nobody drinks poison knowingly, but these people, we are all drinking poison knowingly. They're refusing to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So little difficult but very responsible task. So at least bring five hundred students. Then it will be very nice, gradually. Respectable gentleman, big, big man, at least these big, big merchants, their student doesn't... Just like Birla family, other big, big... If they require some technologists, they can hire. There are so many tech... Technologist means śūdra. And actually they are doing that. They do not train their own sons to become technologist. They pay for that, the śūdras, as servants are... The Englishmen used to say these men, craft and technolo..., "educated laborer." They are laborer and little educated. There are uneducated laborer, just like carpenter. He doesn't require any education. If he knows how to rub on... What is called, that? That instrument? He doesn't require to become M.A., Ph.D. All these laborers are working so nicely. So why they should spend, waste their time in going to school and college? From the very be... As soon as he's ten years old only, let him learn practically how to weave cloth, how to become carpenter, how become other craftsman. And in due course of time he can earn his... How to cultivate land... Why so many big, big universities for inviting everyone? There is no need. Educated means brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa will give real knowledge, and kṣatriyas will govern. For vaiśyas and śūdras, there is no... It is waste of time. Formerly it was done so. The vaiśyas, they have got a son, goes to a shopkeeper: "Please here let my son work with you. He doesn't want any salary." So he gets engagement. Then, by seeing, seeing, he becomes little important. And the proprietor gives him some hand expense. And then, one day, he becomes very expert. He starts his own business. That was the system. Why he should go and waste time for education? A boy is given to a carpenter. He learns very easily. A weaver, he learns very easily. A shopkeeper, grocer, he learns very easily. That is education. Why he should waste time for academic education and create unemployment? So long he's not educated, he has got enough employment. Still they take in the morning, say, half a mound of òāl and goes home to home: (Hindi) So by saying, after mound of òāl, he makes up these two, three rupees' profit. That's all. Where is unemployment?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I saw personally Hari-prasad Badruka in Hyderabad. He tried to send his son to college, and the boy kept failing. Finally he took him back, and immediately he took to business, because his father's a businessman.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He couldn't do it.

Prabhupāda: This idea, that "My son should be B.A., M.A., Ph.D.," it is wrong idea. Why? What is there, Ph.D.'s? First of all one must earn. Self-preservation is the first law of... But not... The Marwaris used to do that in Calcutta. Many pakorā. No business--he was frying pakorā and selling. Why unemployment? This is disastrous, unemployment. As soon as there is unemployment, there are so many devils. They'll plan. And the first plan will come--wine and woman. So we want to save the society from this downfall. At least keep one ideal. And that is our mission.

                                                                                                                                                                        500407

So this is the position of the society, very, very bad. And our mission is para-upakāra, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So if we actually want... This is very good opportunity to train up from the very beginning to create vidvān, bhaktimān, jïānavān. Others also, they may be given opportunity. There is everything in the śāstra. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa has given all direction in every field of activity. So let us carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa as it is, as far as possible. That is our duty. Now these, my programs, they're also taking the concentrating people in the village, government?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's it.

Prabhupāda: That is required. But it will be a failure unless they are taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Gandhi's failure was there. He did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because the material civilization means pravṛtti-mārga, and spiritual civilization nivṛtti-mārga. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām. So pravṛtti... Suppose he is in the village. He has to work with plow. And in the city, Goodyear Tire Company offering him twenty rupees per day. So he'll see that "What is the use of working with this plow? Let me go to Goodyear Tire." Then here the business will be finished. That is the position of India. So much land is lying vacant because there is no worker, and all the rascals have gone to New Delhi or big cities. And overpopulation? "Give them sterilization." Here there is no men to work and they're sterilization... How the leaders... And who is leader? Another debauch number one, Gandhi, Mrs.... And she has produced a Sanjay Gandhi. Very precarious si... So there will be no scarcity of simple living and eating. We shall give nice food, milk, and place. So bring student and teach them. Then gradually increase. They will preach throughout the whole world. The defect of the society, modern--the rascals are worshiped. Cāṇakya Paṇòita has given all in his moral instructions. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante: "Where rascals are not worshiped..." But at the present moment rascals are worshiped. And he says. He was experienced politician. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susaïcitam. "In the society where rascals are not worshiped and food grains are properly stocked..." Mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susaïcitam... Another... Dampatyo kalaho nāsti: "And where there is no quarrel between husband and wife," tatra śrīḥ svayam āgatāḥ, "all fortune will come there automatically." Svayam āgatāḥ. You haven't got to pray, "Mother Lakṣmī, please come to my house." She'll come. Three things wanted. You should not give unnecessarily honor to rascals, and you should keep your food grains very nicely, and don't quarrel, husband and wife. Then you become fortunate. Just see. Check how these instructions are there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays none of those three are available. There is divorce, there is shortage of food, and all rascals are worshiped.

Prabhupāda: That's it. If there is no quarrel between husband and wife, you can be happy underneath a tree. You know Nala-Damayanti?

Indian man (1): Eh?

Prabhupāda: Nala-Damayanti?

Indian man (1): Yeah.

Prabhupāda: They were happily living by covering their one cloth. Still, they were living peacefully. They were so poverty-stricken. Rāja Hariścandra lost everything, but because there was peace between husband and..., they were living. Viśvāmitra saw separately. There are so many instances. That is lost now, to live peacefully, husband and wife. Throughout the whole world became sour. And still in India, "Eh, I have no other..." There is stock of grain. So how many people have got stock of grain nowadays? Dhānyaṁ yatra susaïcitam. (laughs) Nobody.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the government does not have a stock of grain.

Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense government? A combination of rascals and fools, that's all. Demon-cracy. Not democracy but demon-cracy.

 

Talk About Varṇāśrama, S.B. 2.1.1-5           June 28, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         500844

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (break) ...whether I have a family.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: These Englishmen were very much eager to know the man who is working, whether he's family man, because a family man will never become irresponsible. And this is very, very much visible fact in India. A very poor man, if he's family man, he'll work. It is the family affection. And in economics we have read Marshall's economics. He gives... The economic development takes place by family affection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good observation.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Therefore in India the father-mother takes the responsibility of the son, to make him a family man. Then leave, marry.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not a bogus sādhu.

Prabhupāda: Then he... Father-mother knows that he'll take care of his life automatically. And the boy and the girl are not allowed to mix with second girl, second boy. They are kept strictly. And when they're grown up, they're allowed to mix and the affection becomes firm. These are psychology. It is the psychology of woman that before puberty, if she has got a boy, she loves forever. She'll never be unchaste. So these marriage things are done very psychologically, scientifically, so that they may become happy, and then, in peaceful mind, combine together, good cooperation, they make progress, spiritual. This is the plan, varṇāśrama-dharma. Very scientific. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that." Whatever Kṛṣṇa shall give--perfect. Nobody cares. They are suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now you are introducing again to the world. There is good hope. Young girls in our society, they should be promised to some boy just in the same way, by their parents.

Prabhupāda: And if required, one man can take care of more than one wife because woman population is greater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And some boys want to remain brahmacārī. So naturally there's fewer men for women.

Prabhupāda: And those who are able, you can keep more than one wife. Just see Kṛṣṇa--sixteen thousand wives. God. That is God. Come on, if there is anyone to compete. Sixteen thousand palaces, sixteen thousands wives, each wife, ten sons. That is God.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one is equal to or greater than Him.

Prabhupāda: All queens are happy. Whatever she desires from husband... Satyabhāmā... And Kṛṣṇa went to the heaven and brought the pārijāta flower to satisfy. This is husband. Wife has asked for something: "All right."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He even had to fight.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, not these...

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not these workers.

Prabhupāda: They cannot maintain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's right. They don't have the land to maintain. You have to have land.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is husband's duty. She has dedicated her everything to the husband, and husband must see that she is comfortable. This is husband. She must have children, she must have good house, good eating, good clothing, good ornament. Then she is satisfied. They want these things. A woman does not mind very much, "My husband has got more than one wife." If she gets all the comforts of her wishes, some children and some comforts, then she is... She does not grudge because woman knows man's psychology. A man is not satisfied with one woman. So he must be given that. But she must be chaste. She cannot have more than... Then their relation is all right. If the woman allows husband--"He likes. Let him have more than one woman, but I must be chaste"--this... Our civilization is nowhere, Vedic culture.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the villages in India, is this still going on sometimes. We see in the cities it's not, but in the villages, do they still have more than one wife?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Not poor man. Kṣatriyas.

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Prabhupāda: You can have more than one wife, but maintain them just like wife. She may not have any complaints that "My husband cannot maintain me."

Śatadhanya: (entering) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Close that door. How are you?

Śatadhanya: Feeling much better. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...man and woman happy, and in happiness, in peace of mind, make progress, spiritual life. That is the Vedic civilization. The guide is there, brāhmaṇa. The protection is there, kṣatriya. The food is there, vaiśya. And labor is there, śūdra. Combine together, live very happily, peacefully, in the society. You'll find still. The aim is how to realize God. Village to village, you'll find temples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw when going to the bank yesterday. We passed through the bhangi colony, but there was a temple there. They have their temple, even the bhangis.

Prabhupāda: In our childhood we have seen. The bhangis, they carry stool, walk in the morning with stool, so neat and clean. And if you go to the house, you cannot understand that this is a bhangi's house. So neat and clean. And bathing their utensils, their sitting place. After taking thorough bath, sometimes they are worshiping Deity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow!

Prabhupāda: Still you'll find.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Bhangi. And business is carrying stool.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When they say "untouchables," do they mean those bhangis?

Prabhupāda: They have introduced this word, "untouchable."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But is that the community that they're talking about?

Prabhupāda: Hm hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And still they worship Deity.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are many devotees, Vaiṣṇava. Hui(?) dāsa, a great Vaiṣṇava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: A famous Vaiṣṇava, Hui(?) dāsa, he's coming from the bhangis. Everyone is given chance. Socially there may be distinction. Spiritually everyone is given equal chance. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Pāpa-yonayaḥ means these bhangi, cāmāras. And they are not upstart: "Now I have become Vaiṣṇava. Therefore I shall become equal with the brāhmaṇa." No. He is satisfied with his own... They are cooking. Oh, you'll like to cook, er, eat. I have seen it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They cook nicely.

Prabhupāda: Everything equal. Taking bath, cleansing and worshiping, chanting...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't eat meat?

Prabhupāda: Most of them, they eat, but there are... They do not eat... Not meat. Fish. Meat-eating was introduced by the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: British.

Prabhupāda: ...Britishers. Otherwise, nonvegetarian in India means up to fish. (pause) In Gujarat still you'll find. One young girl... You see here that all young girls are carrying water, collecting. In the morning collecting water, cleansing the house, utensils, clothes, taking bath, then cooking, those girls. Their first business. Man's business is to earn money, go to the market, the necessities. Woman's business is take care of household affairs, children, and they have got engagement. And in the presence of father or elder brother or husband, a woman has to earn livelihood--that's a great insult.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Disgrace. That's disgraceful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the husband is irresponsible. That means the man is irresponsible, to let his wife do that. And they let their unmarried daughters do.

Prabhupāda: And woman left alone means prostitution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what's going on now in Bombay, Calcutta. The men send their unmarried daughters to become secretary. She must be... And even before that, they go to college, freely mixing with the men.

Prabhupāda: As soon as they allow young girl to mix with young boys--finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This coeducation is very bad.

Prabhupāda: And in the Western countries it is openly allowed, dating. "Please learn this art." (pause) And if you keep woman chaste, then nice children will come, no hippies.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, just like that boy, Dapni, Dapni's(?) grandson. Nice boy.

Prabhupāda: That's it. And if nice children are there in the society, they will become responsible men. Then there will be no disturbance in the society. Everything will go on smoothly. Brāhmaṇa is acting as brāhmaṇa; kṣatriya is acting as... They are both... No quarrel. No animosity. Everyone is cooperating with one another. The whole society becomes peaceful. Family becomes peaceful. The man personally becomes peaceful. Then he will be able to make progress. Kutaḥ śānti ayuktasya. If you are not peaceful, how you can attain? Or if you are not a devotee, you cannot be peaceful. Or if you are not peaceful, you cannot become devotee. But if you can become devotee, you become peaceful. So I have studied practically. Vedic way of simple life is the best. And unless you adopt the Vedic way of simple life, you'll be implicated, material desires. There is no end. The Western civilization, they are after sense gratification, but there is no limit where it will end. The psychology is that everything new. They are changing--"change, change, change." And there is no limit. Where the sense gratification will be satisfied, this much? Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma. Kāmasya na indriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā. Na indriya-prītiḥ. We require sense gratification--we have got senses--but not for the matter of sense. Just to live. Just like sleeping--we require bedding. And why shall I be dissatisfied if there is no good bedstead and no silk, silver and, or, and this, that, so...? Within my means, whatever comforts are available, I make satisfaction. Why shall I make competition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not the purpose of life. It's missing.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Bhāgavata says, kāmasya na indriya-prītir lābhaḥ, kāmasya lābho jīveta yāvatā. So why they are restless? They do not know the end of life. So what is the end of life? Jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā na yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. The real business is that "What is Brahman?" If your mind is diverted to brahma-jijïāsā, then naturally these nonsense things, they will be... Therefore Bhāgavata begins, athāto brahma-jijïāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ, paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. The knowledge is there. The process is there. Everything has to be dovetailed. What is that? Dovetailing? So the great sages, brāhmaṇas, they were holding meeting in Naimiṣāraṇya, discussion how people will be happy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the duty of the sages.

Prabhupāda: Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ: "Oh, you have raised the kṛṣṇa-sampraśna? Very, very..." Loka-hitam. Is not the beginning? The rascals has given meaning, munayaḥ... The whole scheme is how people will be happy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sages are living for that purpose.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sages and munis, brāhmaṇas...

Prabhupāda: Everyone. (Bengali) The civilization is... They are also trying loka-hita-kāraṇa, how people will be happy, but in a wrong way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is that who is trying also? Who did you say was also trying?

Prabhupāda: The materialists. They are trying in the society, but in a wrong way. In a wrong way they have taken the hobby of sense gratification. And that will never be satisfied.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause they think that the body is the identity, not the soul.

Prabhupāda: Soul, they do not know what is. There is soul, and there is activity of the soul, soul is the fundamental basis--these rascals, they do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not know ātma-tattvam. Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. They are increasing thousands and thousands of demands. Why? Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not see. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore their center is gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where are these verses from, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata. You do not read?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Prahlāda, teachings...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Not Prahlāda. You are... You do not care? Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Find out Second Canto. You should read and write in so many...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to remember the Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Beginning of the Second Canto. Can you read?

Upendra: What was the verse?

Prabhupāda: First of all find out Second Canto, Second Canto, first chapter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Second Canto, first chapter.

Upendra: Second Canto, first chapter.

Prabhupāda: Can you read?

Upendra: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya: "O my Lord, the all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You." Next śloka?

śrī-śuka uvāca

varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ

kṛto loka-hitaṁ nṛpa

ātmavit-sammataḥ puṁsāṁ

śrotavyādiṣu yaḥ paraḥ

"Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said, My dear king, your question is glorious because it is very beneficial to all kinds of people. To hear the answer to this question is the prime subject matter of hearing, and it is approved by all transcendentalists."

śrotavyādīni rājendra

nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ

apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ

gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām

"Those persons who are materially engrossed, being blind to the knowledge of ultimate truth, have many things as subject matter for hearing in the human society, O emperor."

Prabhupāda: Just like our men. Little advanced, they have no more interest with hearing newspaper, ordinary sex novel. This is for the rascals. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. We are interested in Bhāgavata. That's all. You can read. Go on.

Upendra:

nidrayā hriyate naktaṁ

vyavāyena ca vā vayaḥ

divā cārthehayā rājan

kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā

"The life span of such envious householders is passed at night either in sleeping or in sex indulgence, and in the daytime either in making money or in maintaining family members."

Prabhupāda: So this business...

Śatadhanya: They waste all the time.

Upendra:

dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv

ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api

teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanaṁ

paśyann api na paśyati

"Persons devoid of ātma-tattva do not inquire into the problems of life, being too attached to the fallible soldiers like the body, children, wife, etc. Although sufficiently experienced, still they do not see their inevitable destruction."

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Upendra: (reads purport, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 2.1.4)

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I become surprised how I have written this. Although I am the writer, still sometimes I am surprised how these things have come. Such vivid description. Where is such literature throughout the whole world? It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Every line is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The purports are as nice as the ślokas.

Prabhupāda: It is explained in this way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's 7:30 now. (break)

Prabhupāda: I have not done it, but I have seen it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You learned everything by seeing. You said that you learned how to cook by watching your mother.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I used to cook.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, for your family?

Prabhupāda: Our family men. I asked my mother, "I'll do this, that." They'll allow, "All right."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that sometimes you would be walking in the footpath, and you would watch those men cook their...

Prabhupāda: Not cook. Somebody's doing some artistic work. I'll stand. I'll see how they are doing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artistic?

Prabhupāda: Just like knitting. So I'll learning knitting by standing before. They're making some flower of wool, so I'll learn it, and it will come out. That was my hobby. And similarly I learned how to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By watching. You watched your father?

Prabhupāda: Father and the Mullik's Thakurbhari. "I'll do." I'll ask my father, "Give me Deity. I shall worship." "Yes, take Deity."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How old were you when you got your Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity?

Prabhupāda: About six, seven years old.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Was it very elaborate worship?

Prabhupāda: Not elaborate. But I'll decorate. I'll keep it in a place. Whatever I eat, I offered. I imitate, ghee lamp, ārati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Putting to rest.

Prabhupāda: There was engagement in a small corner of the room.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then Ratha-yātrā. Sounds like a very pleasant childhood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My father's friends, the Mulliks, they used to criticize my..., "Oh, you are holding Ratha-yātrā festival, and you are not inviting us."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You didn't invite them?

Prabhupāda: It is childish play. Where is invitation? So my father, the children, they were playing. "Oh, by the name of children you are avoiding us." It was like that. But the festival was going on. We called the professional kīrtanīyas. They performed kīrtana. There will be procession of my small children friends.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Miniature Ratha-yātrā.

Prabhupāda: Hm. A small ratha the father give. The height, about this, made of nice, strong wood.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the boys would pull it?

Prabhupāda: Everything small scale.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small pullers also.

Prabhupāda: Eight days, eight kind of varieties of prasādam, my mother will prepare.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She would take part by preparing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And now... Whether the... Make very nice bannerjee(?). Formerly people were engaged in these things. There was another Mullik family, Rajen..., Raja Rajendra. He was distributing jagannātha-prasāda, daily, two thousand portions.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which Mullik?

Prabhupāda: Raja Rajendranath Mullik. He was also holding very big festival, Ratha-yātrā. So we had the opportunity of seeing once.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You must have been dreaming about Purī Ratha-yātrā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whenever I would find some time, I would consult timetable, "How to go to Purī and Vṛndāvana? What is the fare?" At that time carriage(?) was three rupees. I think it was four rupees, one anna. And Vṛndāvana was six rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had some money saved up?

Prabhupāda: Yes, with my father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that your grandmother would give you one gold coin each year.

Prabhupāda: Not gold coin. This copper coin, looking like gold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you'd keep it banked with your mother, and if she ever was angry with you, you threatened.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Bring my money." The society was so nice, and everyone was happy, everyone. These Marwaris, especially, they are very good community. They... As family people, they know how to earn, how to become happy by family. I like these Marwaris.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they also feel at home...

Prabhupāda: They're vegetarian.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Sometimes I would visit Dalmiya-ji in his home. I was so amazed to see how happy his family life is. They have no...

Prabhupāda: Marwaris, they do know how to earn money, how to save money, how to become happier man. The worship is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they always have the temple in their homes. The women are engaged.

Prabhupāda: And they make general houses in such a way that you get a room and there is everything, arrangement. There is howah(?). You don't require to cook. You take food from the howah(?). Very nice food. You pay just like a small hotel. They... All their business family... You see. You have seen Calcutta Birla house.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: They occupy only one room. Their everything is like that. Pay for. There is no botheration of cooking or purchasing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean, different families occupy one room only?

Prabhupāda: Well, different family, different room, but they can live very humbly. Those who have little income, they'll somehow or other take one room, live in. And in that house, everything is there. You can purchase. And you earn money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes you see a very wealthy may living in only two, three rooms with his whole family.

Prabhupāda: That's all. And generally one room. Otherwise two rooms--one stock room, one sleeping room. They live very economically and save money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Frugal.

Prabhupāda: Frugal, yes. And when there is enough money, they construct their own house. Then they live very luxuriously. In the beginning, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And they'll work sixteen hours sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As much as possible. Very hard-working.

Śatadhanya: And their sons also work with them.

Prabhupāda: And whatever money saved, they purchase ornament. They don't deposit in the bank.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. That's one of their things.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is Indian style. To save money means purchase ornament.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purchasing one ornament.

Prabhupāda: Ornament for the wife.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That could be...

Prabhupāda: Because she likes ornament, gold, and they have got molten(?) in the jewelry.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you get the money back? Sell it?

Prabhupāda: Hm? There is no question. It is saving. Suppose you want two hundred rupees. After spending, if there is three hundred rupees, invest hundred rupees in ornament.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do you save enough money to get the house if you have all ornaments?

Prabhupāda: You keep it. Don't deposit in bank.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't trust this banking system.

Prabhupāda: No, formerly there was no bank practically. Now they... Generally, ordinary man, whatever little saving is there, they will invest in metal utensils, in ornament, in Benarsi sari, like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Benarsi sari also considered very valuable.

Prabhupāda: It is golden, gold border. You can... When you want to..., mean an old Benarsi sari..., you can go. There are persons, they'll take it, and they'll burn it, and the borders will take care, either silver or gold. Still in Delhi we find. Any investment were... Not this plastic plate and paper plate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Whenever they buy something, it must have value.

Prabhupāda: Must have value. That is Indian investment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the opposite of the Western.

Prabhupāda: And whatever you manufacture, you can show back. Suppose this tape recorder. If it is working, it has value. What is the use of it? Who cares for you? If it is in working order, it has value. Otherwise, (taps microphone) who cares for it? But if you have got gold, silver, metal... There was a small banker's. You require... I am poor man. I require only two rupees, but I have no money. You take one utensil and go to a small banker. He will keep this pot. "Give me two rupees." The pot is only five rupees' worth, so he'll keep it. He'll give you two rupees. So your immediate necessity is... This way, Indian economics.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've noticed that the people in the villages, when they come to fetch water, they have very nice pots. The ladies are wearing some bracelets. Gold, I think, it must be.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the village.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll find description in Bhāgavata. They were coming to congratulate Kṛṣṇa--so nice dress, so nice ornament, so nice foodstuff made of ghee, grains in our...

Śatadhanya: Sometimes the rich Marwari ladies, when they come to Māyāpura, once in a while they give some ornament to the Deity. They'll give one ring or one bracelet, gold.

Prabhupāda: That was always. They would offer some ornament to the Deity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, there's the example...

Prabhupāda: That Sākṣī-Gopāla. The queen wanted to give her nose pearl. Very happy spiritual society.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now you are developing that all over the world, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I have thought it over, over. It was very, very nice. What is this nonsense society? Tin car?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're becoming worse...

Prabhupāda: And rubber tire, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cars nowadays...

Prabhupāda: Cannister, tin cannister. In your country these have been all piled up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cars.

Prabhupāda: Whole cars, useless, piled up. But then they are smashed and again melted and again crushed.

Śatadhanya: They build them so that in one year, two years, they break. Then they can sell more.

Prabhupāda: Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed. Make a car, break it, and again melt it and again make another car. That's all. This is their civilization, car-making civilization. No spiritual idea, no ambition for spiritual life. But they'll do. They'll do something. So therefore they are making, breaking more. Make the car; break the car; again make the car; again break the car. Therefore you are habituated to change.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If something is nice, it must be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: No, it has... Everything is destroyed, material. (end)

 

Room Conversation(3)                                June 28, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                          501045

Prabhupāda: (tape very faint throughout) ...divorce, child-killing or making the children hippies, that all. Or find out some war to destroy them. When it is unmanageable, they declare war: "Engage these rascals." The politicians do that. When they cannot manage, they declare war, because they are not human beings; they are animals, Churchill and Hitler and this... "Start some war and finish this population." Or it may be nature's law. "When there is unnecessary population let there be war, famine, pestilence." That is one theory, Malthus' theory.

Śatadhanya: Whose?

Prabhupāda: Malthus.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Malthus.

Prabhupāda: So I don't speak I am authorized. I have studied both ways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what makes your books so unique, that others might have had some scholarly knowledge, but you have to so much experience and realization packed into those books that it's so appealing, the scholars delight in reading the purports.

Prabhupāda: Scholars, they theorize. I say practical. Scholars want to say, want to show how much their imaginative power is strong. That's all. And they all speak nonsense--Ramakrishna. And my point of view is how to give people practical hints so that they may be raised from this rotten condition.

Śatadhanya: You are compassionate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tathā vinoda(?). I have done on reality. I want to establish reality, not imagination. What is the use of giving some imaginative idea, just like this rascal Darwin? Everything rascal. No practical value. And he has written volumes of books, and people are accepting: "From monkey, man has come. That's all." But monkey is there; man is there. Where monkey is extinct? The whole theory is absolutely bogus, and people have accepted it. I never believed that. Anthropo... Anthropomor... No? The...?

Upendra: Anthropomorphism.

Prabhupāda: And... What do you call, this science?

Śatadhanya: Anthropology.

Prabhupāda: Anthropology. Anthropology we believe; as it is stated in the Vedas, we believe, one after another. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarāḥ... That is the... The soul is changing. So there is no question of... "Survival of the fittest." Nonsense. Who is fit?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one except the devotee is fit.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is dying. Who is the fittest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The devotee is alone eternal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the devotees, they do not know. They are all rascals, animals. But here, this statement, "fittest," who is fittest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really no one.

Prabhupāda: Still the theory is going on, "Survival of the fittest."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say some are more fit than others.

Prabhupāda: But who is that fit, rascal?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is the most fit?

Prabhupāda: Who is that? Show me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, today we said--an elephant can also be killed.

Prabhupāda: Everything is killed. "Fittest." Nobody is fittest in this world. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api. Everyone is asat. He'll not exist. That is statement of the... Bhāgavata never said, "Here is a person or animal, fittest." That is not Bhāgavata. Teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. The rascal is so mad that everything will be finished, and he is talking of "fittest." All theory, no practical. Unnecessarily spent millions and millions of dollars, that "We have gone to moon." Why? Why this bogus propaganda? What is the value? And they take pride. Now we are drawing picture how many miles away. It is impossible to find out. And why they make this bogus propaganda?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's totally impossible they went to the moon.

Prabhupāda: No, they have not gone, but still, they are making such a big propaganda. What is the mentality?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheaters.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheaters, sense gratifiers.

Prabhupāda: Cheating propensity is so strong. There is cheating propensity in different way. From Brahmā it goes. That is a bad qualification. That should be finished. But they are trying to increase it. I have got some bad qualification; my business is to finish it. So what is the use of increasing it? I am a thief. I have got some habit, to steal. So shall I try to stop it or increase it? Which one is human?

Śatadhanya: To stop.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they think this life is all in all, they think better somehow or other...

Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. They are going all wrong.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahātmā Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: No. Nothing. Simply false life, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And these are the people that we are preaching to.

Prabhupāda: That is our duty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You preach to us.

Prabhupāda: In the distinction between two civilizations, they, they want to increase the bad qualification; we want to decrease them.

                                                                                                                                                                        501106

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. It is a different type of civilization, to become sanctified and Kṛṣṇa conscious. Other things are not very important. If it is possible to rectify him, don't bother about this. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Increase this qualification.

                                                                                                                                                                        501119

Prabhupāda: Human activity should be guided toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is human. Otherwise it is animal. Take minimum demand, be happy, and make progress. That is the platform of progress. Very little... (too faint) The same shape, (too faint) they are improving to make straighter, topless, bottomless, in this way and that way, miniskirt. They are arranging. The thing is the same, but they want to change the taste in different way. No knowledge. That means (too faint). Sex, you require under... You'll get it between husband and wife. There is no difficulty. What is the use of that? Daily pregnancy, daily... Three days divorce. Actually I saw in Chicago, within three weeks, three divorce.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our temple?

Prabhupāda: No, no, some public...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that... And even the fact that they got married is more than most people do nowadays. They don't even get married.

Prabhupāda: There is no marriage. And in Bhāgavata says, "There will be no more marriage. Agreement."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sex agreement.

Śatadhanya: And in Switzerland, in the schools, they teach small children, "You should have sex at early age." They teach in school.

Prabhupāda: Switzerland.

Śatadhanya: Switzerland, yeah. They say they are the most liberal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore it's easy to see why your Guru Mahārāja said that this world is not a fit place for a gentleman.

Prabhupāda: As I told you last time, in the Western countries, so long I am in the temple, I am safe. And as soon as I go out of the temple, it is hell. And implica..., as they are attached. How they are doing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one thing I noticed when I came to India. I felt, only in India, it's the only place that I could go out of the temple, and still I felt it wasn't so hellish. I actually felt like that. You know, just like when we were living in Kamal Nagar in Delhi. There were many karmīs around, but still... Most of them... Many were vegetarians. Many, I could hear pūjā.

Prabhupāda: No, there is some practical life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many devotees like to come to India to serve here in our movement because of that. The general culture still...

Śatadhanya: The atmosphere is conducive for spiritual life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And here in Vṛndāvana it is fully transcendental.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially this Raman Reti. Every place here is an aśrama.

Prabhupāda: So just try to help them, help them, introduce them, and give everything. That is my request. As far as possible, I have such a big plan. Who'll merit the ideas? We never...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivinoda Öhākura uses the word "revive," that if Kṛṣṇa consciousness is revived, then one pure soul can learn.

Prabhupāda: That is paramparā. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma is there. Guru Mahārāja is present. (too faint)

Upendra: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) (long pause)

 

Conversation(2)                                          June 30, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           501338

"So I know three medicines. One is castor oil; one is quinine; another is mag salt."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the last one?

Prabhupāda: Quinine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine and magnesium salt?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And castor oil. "And all my other medicines, they are business."

Śatadhanya: They are what?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are business, simply making money.

Prabhupāda: He said that. He did not like to tell me this. He's a doctor. When he was indisposed, he'll sit down silently for three days, and he will give this quinine, castor oil and... Bhimsen?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is poisonous, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is not kept in...

Prabhupāda: Quinine is fever and (indistinct). And he said like that. "I have no..."

Śatadhanya: We'll move the bed. He brought the hot water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It almost seems like Mr. Bose was like a second father to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My father's friend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was he very close to your father?

Prabhupāda: Very. He appointed me manager for this relationship.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He trusted you personally, like a son.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We were exactly like son.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will you want to see Bhakti-caitanya Swami again today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was talking with him about the temple that he proposes to make.

Prabhupāda: Temple is not very important thing. First important thing is distribution. That is our main business.

 

Room Conversation(3)                                July 30, 1977, Vrndavana                                                           501552

Prabhupāda: ...full. They are seeking after comfort, but on the contrary, they have to work like an ass.

Śatadhanya: To work hard.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śatadhanya: They have to work hard.

Prabhupāda: Like an ass. Have you not seen the ass? Can anyone work like that? The animal is so small, and the load is ten times than his body's weight. You have not seen? If you weigh the animal's body and the load, the load is ten times more than his body. This is the punishment. And again, the man who is loading him now, he'll have to become an ass and take the load. This is called karma-bandhana.

 

                                                                                                                                                                        501780

Prabhupāda: That Deity is very, very nice, Śyāmasundara. Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you see that Deity, are you... Do you call it Śyāmasundara or Govinda?

Prabhupāda: And Śyāmasundara is good name.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More appropriate.

Prabhupāda: Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhā-Śyāma, Jaya Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. (laughter) That includes all our Deities. Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhā-Śyāma, Jaya Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. The "jaya" word is in the middle with this "Jaya, Haribol."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya is very auspicious.

Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any other temple in India, in this quarter... I can say, in India... (end)

 

Room Conversation(4)                                June 30, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           502601

Prabhupāda: So if you kindly take up the general management, you are welcome. Money is being squandered. I know that. If you can save some money, that is your great success.

 

Room Conversation(5)                                July 1, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                             502217

Prabhupāda: Then we began to... I used to call his wife didi, as my sister, eldest sister. That man was old. At that time he was at least seventy years old. And his wife died, so he had no children, so he married again. Old husband, young wife, but the relationship was so nice, great devotee and the wife devoted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even though the husband was very old and the wife young.

Prabhupāda: Formerly even eighty years old, they used to marry.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even?

Prabhupāda: Eighty years old.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eight-years-old girl.

Prabhupāda: Eighty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty.

Prabhupāda: There were many cases.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What... I mean, what is the reason behind that? Isn't that very old to get married?

Prabhupāda: If he had no family member, he would marry again. (pause) But it was subject of criticism.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Must have been.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But the custom was that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like someone should simply cultivate spiritual life at that age instead of...

Prabhupāda: In Bhāgavata there are many instances, very old man married. Anyway, this gentleman was such a nice devotee. Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was particularly nice about his devotional quality?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which devotional qualities particularly did he...?

Prabhupāda: Because later on he retired--he was a pleader--so whole day and night, simply devotee. Sometimes he would offer obeisances to the Deity. Actually he was old man. He'll fall asleep by... And he would remain in that two, three hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two or three hours? Wow. Wow. Completely devoted.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And daily he would go to the Ganges.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his name, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: His name was Nanda Dulal Phaini(?). So yesterday I was thinking of him, and I said it in my... I am being purified by thinking of him. That follows certainly(?).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the whole atmosphere... Because we were children, we were going here and there, the neighboring hoods (neighborhoods), all houses... Everyone devotee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Must have been a wonderful atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: Wonderful. We do not find such atmosphere now. Even maidservant, servant. Their character was not very good--still devotee(?). And this was the opportunity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Each of us is society.

Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Govinda Mandir. And the center was that Mullik Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. These Mulliks, some of them were characterless. Characterless means rich men, they kept prostitute. But still devotee. In the morning they would, after taking (indistinct), changing clothes, they must go to see Rādhā-Govinda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they liked to see Rādhā-Govinda.

Prabhupāda: They were devotee. Without seeing Rādhā-Govinda, they would not take their (indistinct).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was the Deity very nicely worshiped?

Prabhupāda: Oh, at that time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like in our temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Dress, jewelry, and foodstuff, oh... We would offer kacuris, very big, first-class, and luci, all very crispy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, crispy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And kṣīra and rābaṛi and similarly other... In the plate, you see?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow!

Prabhupāda: And it was the custom of the Mulliks, daily prasādam, they should not eat all them. Keep something as a balance--some neighborhood men, they will sell. This was...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distribution of prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Distribution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So actually you learned all these things in those early days...

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...at Rādhā-Govinda Temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was the training in the childhood. This Ratha-yātrā, Rādhā-Govinda sevā, prasāda distribution. Only the new thing I am doing--writing of books by the order of Guru Mahārāja. Otherwise, whatever I have introduced, I was trained up in childhood. I simply imitated. I am simply surprised. Now it is... Even a low class... Formerly all our maidservant and neighborhood maidservant, they had two business, one prostitute and one maidservant. Otherwise they could not maintain. Simply by becoming maidservant, no sufficient income. We were paying them for not whole time three rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow!

Prabhupāda: Per month. So one house, three rupees, another house, three rupees, another house... In this way their income was ten to twelve rupees. So that was not suffi...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not much.

Prabhupāda: So they had to allow the prostitution. But they were happy. But in that income in those men, they had a guru. A guru would come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the maidservants.

Prabhupāda: In Bengal there is professional guru. They travel from one house to another. Our paternal guru was coming like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had a professional guru also?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had a paternal guru?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was initiated by that professional guru at the age of twelve years. Later on I rejected that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wonder if he had any thought that his disciple, Your Divine Grace, would be one day such a devotee all over the world. You always say that's the perfection of a guru, if he has good disciple. So your professional guru had a best disciple.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī later on, when I was young man, manager in Dr. Bose's laboratory... That my friend, Naren Mullik, he took me. There is direction. For real guru one can give up this professional guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So all of a sudden I remember this Nanda Dulal Gosai. I was thinking like this, what a great devotee he was. He was observing some of the festivals, I think, Janmāṣṭamī or Nandotsava, something, great, inviting friends, offering good prasādam.

                                                                                                                                                                        502330

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then, if you cut the chicken's throat, then one day you have to have your throat cut.

Prabhupāda: That is law also, in the lawbook.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a very good...

Prabhupāda: Karma-bandhana. Yajïārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. And Western countries regularly cultivate chicken producing.

                                                                                                                                                                        502357

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was just appreciating how in every way you have provided for your disciples, in every aspect. You've created a movement where we have beautiful temples. You've given us this wonderful philosophy in books. In every way you've provided. You've given us these places, Vṛndāvana temple and Māyāpura temple. It's actually a fact that we can... You know, it's like a very loving father who provides everything for his children. I mean, I was just comparing that to this boy who had nothing. His guru expired, and he had nothing. He was bereft. But we'll always be very much provided for and cared for.

Prabhupāda: So with that feeling I want to produce them also, my followers. Everyone should be like that.

 

Room Conversation                                       July 2, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                          502585

Prabhupāda: Otherwise he is not my disciple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he's not. He didn't chant sixteen rounds.

Prabhupāda: India also, there are selected... Morarji Desai is anxious to see me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, whenever your name is brought up, he feels, "Yes, I want to meet him."

Prabhupāda: And the cabinet minister... But they are in prestigious position. They do not come here. They want me to go to them. I could have come, but in this position...

                                                                                                                                                                        502609

Akṣayānanda: So the idea is to save it.

Prabhupāda: Real thing is how to save it. In business circle they say, "To earn money is not difficult, but to spend money is difficult." That is intelligence. To earn money is not difficult because we do not earn. Whatever Kṛṣṇa gives, we take it. But if Kṛṣṇa's money is not squandered, misspent, that is intelligence. So we have to see first of all present... I know that. So much money is squandered. Just like the other day. To secure one eye glass... It is four annas' worth. We have spent at least twenty rupees. In this way our money is being squandered.

Mr. Myer: Actually, as you said the other day very rightly, what is really important now is to try and make things very common, you know, as Prabhupāda says...

Prabhupāda: To earn money, to bring money, is not difficult for us, but whatever money is being spent, if we can save money, that is intelligence.

                                                                                                                                                                        502626

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say... It is practical. To earn money is not difficult, at least for me. But to save money is difficult thing, because that is not in my hand. So let us see how much money we save. Increase the income, that we can do. And there is no problem. I think this is a maxim that "To earn money is not difficult. To save money is difficult." Whatever property we have now made, Kṛṣṇa has given us. But now, to maintain this, to save this prestigious position, that is difficult. Little mismanagement, there may be so many difficulties. You are a businessman, so he knows very well.

                                                                                                                                                                        502641

Mr. Myer: Our new prime minister is now very much appreciating the movement, especially about Prabhupāda. He may like to visit. He says he does not want these foreign industries. He wants people to have religious... And he is very big sannyāsī himself. That is why he is...

Prabhupāda: Who?

Mr. Myer: Morarji Desai. He is very much in favor of the movement that we are carrying on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Myer: Because he himself is following the four principles very nicely for fifty years.

Prabhupāda: So why does he not do? Let him do it.

Mr. Myer: Due to...

Prabhupāda: We can help him in so many ways.

Mr. Myer: But that is his doing. He wants every village like we have planned Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Myer: He wants every village like that, to be...

Prabhupāda: That can be done very easily. It can be done very easily, provided government wants. And we can help. We have to follow simply the Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. They are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not follow. They manufacture their own interpretation. That is the difficulty. Otherwise the Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of happy life and entrance, matriculation, and then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, graduate, and then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, postgraduate. We are therefore presenting three books. So if we follow, our life is successful. But you don't follow. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Māyā is so strong that untruthful things, we take it as truthful. Just like the modern scientists. These rascals, he could not, they cannot, they will never be able to produce life. Still, they are busy: "Yes, we will do. We shall do." The whole world is full of rascals. What they cannot do, what they could not do, what they'll never be able to do... Still, they will persist. This is the difficulty. They have never gone to moon planet, their aeroplane. They cannot go anywhere. You have got plane. They are conditioned. And they are thinking, "We are free." Just like an animal is bound up in a place, and he's going round, here and here. He's thinking the world is round. The world is round. He does not accept that "I am conditioned." They have got now aeroplane, jet plane and so many. Go anywhere. They cannot go. Still, they are proud: "We have measured." This dog's obstinacy of this modern world has killed the whole civilization.

Mr. Myer: This is what Prime Minister's saying, that in India we have more unemployed people although we are attracted to machines. And if we go back to villages and...

Prabhupāda: But he says. When he shall do? Says only.

Mr. Myer: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let him do. We are prepared to cooperate with him. We can give him good advice. We are not going to become prime minister. We have no such policy. Neither president. We kick all these. We have no time even. Even they offer, we'll not take. We are not interested in this. But for the welfare of the whole human society we can give them good advice if you like. That is our duty. Actually the legislative assembly should be filled up with men like us, Parliament, to give advice. But all loafer class, bhangis, cāmāras, they are filling up.

Mr. Myer: All (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the disaster came, Indira.

Mr. Myer: Actually it is a big danger. All the people were educated. Here Hanumān Akuso(?). They have made family plan. But all the...

Prabhupāda: So why family planning? Because they are rascal. Because in this lower species of life they have no planning. You'll find in the dogs, dozens of dogs, dozens of children. And... So there is no family planning. So how they are being raised? There are many animals. So family planning is different thing, but one thing is that these rascals are misguided. They do not know how to give them... In Bengal there is called śiva gotri bango(?). He was ordered to make a doll of Lord Śiva, and he made a monkey. You see? They are doing like that. They were to make Lord Śiva's doll, but they have a monkey because he does not know. Lokasya ajānataḥ vidvān cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ. The rascals do not know how to make things right. Therefore Vyāsadeva has written so nice literature. But they'll not consult. They'll not take Kṛṣṇa's advice, Vyāsadeva's advice, or our advice. They'll manufacture. And instead of preparing doll of Śiva, they are making a doll of monkey. This is going on. And when the monkey is made, "Oh, we did not like this for..." Russia said that occasional revolution is required. Because the things which have been made, that is imperfect, therefore you require revolution. The things are being given, but if we take the perfect thing, it will be nice. These rascals will not take. This is the difficulty. So if Morarji Desai is in favor of... He's also recommending family planning. So that means he does not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he has a big target of eight or ten million people.

Mr. Myer: In twenty years all people have experienced. Poor, poor children, we'll have to give them(?).

Prabhupāda: Why poor children? Bring hundred children, I shall maintain. (break) There are many fathers. They cannot maintain even one child, what to speak of four children.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't maintain any, because they don't have Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: They do not marry for being... Or they kill children. They are doing that. Where is the question of "four," "two"? These are all nonsense program. They do not know how to do things. We welcome. Four, nei. Four hundred. Come on. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "I am a brahmacārī-sannyāsī, but if I can bring Kṛṣṇa conscious child, I can beget hundred children. I have no objection." And that is... There is no question of four or two. Four hundred--if you can make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the criterion. That is required. But that, they do not know. They'll not be able to maintain properly even one children, one child. That's not possible. But that is the difficulty in In... They do not know the laws of nature, the laws of God, how things are going on, although they are being explained. They'll... There are so many things. They are jumping like monkey. That's all. They... They take photograph for "Gītā student," and they do not understand one line, even one line. In the beginning, the Bhagavad-gītā is tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: "This body will change." Do they take it seriously? So what is the use of their reading Bhagavad-gītā? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara, na hanyate hanyamāne. Do they take seriously, that "I am eternal. I do not die after the annihilation of the body. And the body will change. What I am going to do?" So this is going on, and still, they are... Gandhi is... "He is great student of Bhagavad-gītā." He is... "Tilak is a great student." "Dr. Radhakrishnan..." All rascals. All rascals. They do not understand even one line. If they study only one line, they'll be able to bring a great transforming to the... Do you think they do understand this line?

Mr. Myer: Beg your pardon?

Prabhupāda: Do you think they... Do they understand these lines? Now, if your...

Mr. Myer: No, that will be change of party. One man is in Congress. One is in (indistinct). Then he goes to Congress. Wherever he can get an office, they are changing party. They are not all thinking of the spirit.

Prabhupāda: Therefore...

Mr. Myer: They think anything is possible, anything.(?) Do they not preach when they are congressmen? Tomorrow Congress is going to power. Then Janata comes to power. All the time they are changing, everyone. They just want personal gain at any cost.

Prabhupāda: That is why we say the stool, this side and that side... After all, it is stool. Somebody says, "This side is better than that side." Stool is stool when in this side or that side. That is going on. Guer ei pitaro(?). But they are so intelligent, they say, "No, no, this side is better. It has dried up." They are rascals like that. It is stool. It is untouchable.

It is... On all side it is bad, but they are thinking, "This side..." This is their intelligence. What can I do? But if they consult us, they'll be benefited. We are not going to be prime minister or this minister, that... We kick out. We want to remain eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no such ambition. So read books. Do things nicely. Serve Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. The direction is there, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

                                                                                                                                                                        502733

Prabhupāda: So do nicely. And as far as our capacity is there, kṛṣṇārthe akhila-ceṣṭaḥ. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā. Janma-sāphalyam... Etāvaj janma-sāphalyam. Do it. Do this. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇam. This is..., should be... This should be the motto, how we engage our life, our money, our intelligence, our words, to improve Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam. What is that verse, beginning?

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam. That is required. You... How do you know Morarji is interested in...?

Mr. Myer: Well, all the government bosses now, they have defined that "We don't want any big industry." They want all the people in villages. They don't want to use fertilizer.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is our...

Mr. Myer: They want to use compost.

Prabhupāda: This is our...

Mr. Myer: That is what has been in Ahmedabad. I spent one night with Mahāṁśa Swami, and they are also digging up the pits. They are making their own fertilizer. Everything is... That's... You see, that's a policy of Ram Mandir's(?) because they want to create more jobs. The village must become very...

Prabhupāda: Let government help us. If they do not help us even with some men to stay here... Indians are not joining. But they are willingly joining, sacrificing everything.

Mr. Myer: No, but it is worked down now. You see, what it is people were not moved so much. I think...

Prabhupāda: And I want simply some of them to stay, not money. Money they are bringing. Whatever money we are spending here, Bombay, they are bringing. They are... I am writing books. They are selling books. I am working them always: "Make double. Make double." And they are bringing money. So we'll not touch even India's money a farthing. Let them stay here. "No, that is not... Get out. Get out. Get out. Get out." That's all.

Mr. Myer: Yes, the posts will change now because it is very good man over here, new business in America and on the Prime Minister.

Prabhupāda: And "Get out. Get out."

Mr. Myer: This "Get out..."

Prabhupāda: And "Get out" means another ten thousand rupees. He has to go out, again come back.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a big harassment.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like now...

Prabhupāda: How much harassment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...I still have to go...

Prabhupāda: The government is not helping me even in this way. What they'll do? And...

Mr. Myer: Because Indira Gandhi had very bad relations with America. This is the problem. And she was trying to make very bad propaganda about the ISKCON in India.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Mr. Myer: Now she is gone, so everything is fine.

Prabhupāda: She was making propaganda? I...

Mr. Myer: She was trying to say that this ISKCON is cheat.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Mr. Myer: They said that "This is... CIA people are here and then is happening. That is happening." That is why some of the Indians, you know, in the beginning, nobody has gone deep. You see, nobody...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Myer: ...has tried to study the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: She was very...

Mr. Myer: That is why she has had a very bad time.

Prabhupāda: ...biased against the Americans.

Mr. Myer: She has got very bad time now. She has already paid for that. So she will be in jail very shortly, her son and both, her son and... Even her chief minister in Madras, all her people are going to go in jail now, all of them. All the... Everybody involved in her ministry.

Prabhupāda: His son should be hanged.

Mr. Myer: So many (indistinct). Morarji Desai was in jail for nineteen months.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Mr. Myer: Every day he was reading the Gītā, and he was doing the spinning wheel. Nineteen months he was doing. He's also eighty years old.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is of my age, my...

Mr. Myer: Yes. He is guru's age.

Prabhupāda: Eighty, eighty-two.

Mr. Myer: Now is a very good time for ISKCON because this new government, all their policies is what ISKCON is already doing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us see actually if it is good.

Prabhupāda: No, it can be successful, provided they do it nicely. It can be successful very easily, especially in India. That one line of Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS. Satyaṁ śamo damas... There is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma... If they follow this program, everything will be... The face of the world will... Everything. Annād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. Eh? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Eh? Parjanyād...

Akṣayānanda: Yajïād bhavati sam...

Prabhupāda: Ah, yajïād bhavati parjanyo yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Yajïārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. All prescription of material life, spiritual life, social life, political life, religious life, artistic life--Bhagavad-gītā is full of knowledge. At least in India there must be an institution that is strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. This is my institution. We don't want anything more, other help. We simply request them that "Give some of our men permanent residentship. We shall guide it(?)." That they'll institute...(?) What help... What is the harm? Have we got...

                                                                                                                                                                        502796

Prabhupāda: No, our books are more than university standard. If they simply can study our book, it is more than the course he was given. Tan manye adhitam uttamam. All right.

 

Bhū-maṇòala Discussion                               July 3, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           502801

Prabhupāda: And you think it is religion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, and he's an animal. What does he know?

Śatadhanya: And he's limited to a certain atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. He is animal. Know that. What is his idea? And he has not correctly estimated that how high is Himalaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. A gross underestimation--five miles instead of eighty thousand. Not even close. That means he has no idea.

Prabhupāda: There are... I have seen many places by aeroplane, hilly tract. Perhaps you have also seen. They could never go there. Hundreds and thousands of miles, simply stone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that we've seen.

Prabhupāda: Who is going there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah...

Prabhupāda: You have seen from aeroplane?

Śatadhanya: Some. Some mountains.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Alps no one can go there. There's places in the Alps. There's simply so many mountains, no one can go there. The map as the modern people show it--India, Africa, Europe, America, North America, South America--do we accept that much?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do we accept the contour of the continents? Do we accept the general continents?

Prabhupāda: We accept nothing of their theory. They are prejudiced and nonsense. Formerly they were speaking that the world is flat. Now they have changed: "It is round." So what is the value of his estimate? And you'll find in that book, "probably."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the most frequent word used.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the value of their knowledge? Besides that, they'll insist that life is combination of chemicals, and they cannot produce it. Simply useless. So it is, what is called, childish obstinacy. So why shall I believe them? Just like a child cries, "I want. I want," it is like that. There is no science. Still they will say it is science.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's nescience.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nescience.

Prabhupāda: Where is the proof that you produce life from chemicals? We say it cannot be, and they say, "Yes, it is..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything in life comes from some other life.

Prabhupāda: We say that "You have never gone to moon." They will say, "Yes, we have gone." Now they have mentioned, "It is hoax." So how we can believe them? What is the value of their statement? And they promise future, "Yes, we are trying."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Post-dated check.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So something's wrong with their instrument. When they fly from Los Angeles and their compass...

Prabhupāda: Nothing is wrong. From their estimate it is all right. But there is superior power.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They go due west and they hit India from Los Angeles, but according to our calculation, that's not possible.

Prabhupāda: You can go further, but you cannot go. That is condition. You are restricted. The same, that you are bound up. If an animal can go further... But he cannot, because he is bound up. Ahaìkāra-vimūòhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He is thinking, "I am free." He is not free. So what is the value of his education? This is the real point.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll want to talk about another point.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll want to talk about the point that the point on their compass that points west while they're flying in the airplane, and they keep it going west, and they eventually land in India from Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: You are flying west or east--you do not know. You are controlled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "No, our compass shows it. And you accept the compass."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are going west, but do you think where you think that the west is end, that is not end. You can go further.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say it never ends because we're going around the planet.

Prabhupāda: No, that is his dog's mentality, going round. That is dog. He is thinking that "This is the area. Now I..." He's controlled by superior power, that "You cannot go." An example is... There are so many. There are so many stars, moons, and we'll go there. But he cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "We accept this premise, that we are limited."

Prabhupāda: But then limited, you cannot say final.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But we say within our limited means we can understand that..."

Prabhupāda: And limited means if you understand that "I am bound up. I am going round the law," that is all right. But don't say that "Beyond this limit there is nothing."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But supposing that within this limit we accept that we are limited.

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we say that we're going west and...

Prabhupāda: That's right, west up to this point, rascal, not more than that. Why don't you understand this? West you have gone. That's all right. But up to this point, no more. You cannot go. You don't say that there is no more after this western... They are saying that.

Śatadhanya: Yeah, they say, "Then west becomes east."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, they say.

Śatadhanya: They say.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śatadhanya: But why? Just because it is finished for them...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śatadhanya: ...'cause they are limited.

Prabhupāda: Unlimited.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they fly direct to India?

Prabhupāda: Unlimited way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This question they're still going to put. They're still going to put this question, that they... We say, "Here is Jambūdvīpa, and this is Bhāratavarṣa on the bottom, and you cannot go beyond Bhāratavarṣa because you're conditioned. You're limited. That is our position. And within Bhāratavarṣa there is India. We accept that. Even we accept that. There are oceans. There are continents, seven continents, as described in the Bhāgavatam." So their question is: "Okay, but then how do you explain that you can go this direction and you come out in India, over, back here?"

Prabhupāda: We don't say that, that this direction, what you are saying, it is end. That is not. We say that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That it doesn't end.

Prabhupāda: That you can go further, but you cannot go. Therefore you are thinking, "This is end of the position." The same dog mentality. He is within that small area. He is thinking, "There is no more, other space." That example is another, that bull. His eyes are closed, and he crushes the oil mill, going. He's thinking he is going three hundred miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They keep the eyes blinded so he won't...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...understand what's going on.

Prabhupāda: Because in one place, simply going round, going round, it makes one mad. So those eyes are closed. He is thinking, "This is the end of world."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have said that, but still you have not given the solution.

Prabhupāda: This is solution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've explained it...

Prabhupāda: Solution is that you are thinking, "This is this." You are making solution. You are making solution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're trying to make.

Prabhupāda: But I say, because you are limited, this is not this. What you are thinking, "This is this," that is not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is it?

Prabhupāda: Kūpa-maṇòūka, the frog in the well, he is thinking that "This is the whole water area."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then what is it? If it is not what I am thinking, then what is it?

Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. Take it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we can't explain it. That's the problem.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why cannot explain?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the problem.

Prabhupāda: It is there, given in the book. What you are doing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: According to the book, according to Bhāgavata and the picture that we have drawn, there's only one way to go from America to India.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's only one way to go from America to India, not two--at least to our vision. So far, we have not been able to explain it. That's our problem.

Prabhupāda: I do not... What...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'd better... I can bring our diagram.

Prabhupāda: Here is America. Here is India. If you go immediately, then one way, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, only one way. But they go two ways.

Prabhupāda: Two way?

Śatadhanya: From New York or from San Francisco.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can go from New York, that direction, or they go from Los Angeles, the other way. Either way, they come to India, and they say, "That proves the world is round 'cause we can go like this or we can go this way." But we say, "No, you can only go this way." But the compass shows I am going due east...

Prabhupāda: So we don't say differently. You can go this way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't say that. Because there's no round, we say... Simply it's a lotus. It's not...

Prabhupāda: No, I... It is the same example. Just a animal is bound up, so he's going this round or this round, the same thing. But you cannot go beyond that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That they'll... "We accept." I take the view of the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. We don't say. Suppose you are going round, you'll go this round or this round, but within the round.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But the whole question we're saying is that we say, "No, you can only go one way."

Prabhupāda: No, I don't say.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But according to our...

Prabhupāda: If you are going round, you can go round this way or that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there is no round.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is round. You are thinking round. You are going round... (end)

 

Discussion about Bhū-maṇòala                      July 5, 1977, Vṛndāvan                                                            502895

Prabhupāda: Lotus is also round. Lotus, that petal is also round. Lotus petal is round. So within one lotus petal this round or that round, there is.

Śatadhanya: And within their own limited sphere they can go this way or that way. But they don't know the whole shape.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to draw the shape probably, because according to what we've drawn so far...

Prabhupāda: That you can do, but real thing is we can remain within the limit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we accept.

Prabhupāda: So within the limit...Suppose the lotus petal this way, that way, or this way...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're asking us to draw the details and make a planetarium very exact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lotus petal, it is round. So in one lotus petal you are conditioned. You cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So far that hasn't been said, but that's... You can say that Bhārata-varṣa is a petal of the lotus. But I think if you look at the Bhāgavatam, it may... I'd have to see it, what it says. There's a statement that it may be the inner portion of the lotus. I don't know...(break) And what we do, it has to agree with the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Lotus petal... There are so many petals. You are conditioned with one petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's... If that's the explanation, then it can be somehow adjusted.

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is going on outside.

Devotee: There's so many round parts of a lotus petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that part...That could be adjusted. But there's a place within it, you know, the center part, there's no petals. In the middle of the lotus there's like a... I don't know what you call it, but a... It's a flattish area. They show Kṛṣṇa standing sometimes when they draw a picture of Kṛṣṇa on a lotus.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But your place is in.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we accept.

Prabhupāda: That we have to hear from authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept that. I'm just thinking...

Prabhupāda: Unless you are obstinate, you have to accept if you are convinced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept.

Prabhupāda: There are so many millions of stars and moons that we cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As we are conditioned, as everyone is conditioned, our planetarium will have to show the actual facts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That fact we have learned from Bhāgavatam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, so far we have not drawn this fact correctly.

Prabhupāda: That is your inability. That is another thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, well that's why we're... That's the question that we've raised. This question that we've raised is due to that.

Prabhupāda: That is you are unable to, but the fact is that you are conditioned. You cannot go beyond that conditioned

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's accepted.

Prabhupāda: So we are also conditioned. But as far as possible we take description from Bhāgavata, try to. That is our... Suppose here is India, here is Los Angeles. You start from India, Los Angeles..., or India, you'll come to Los Angeles. And again return to India. Similarly you start from this again going.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's possible if you can fly this way, underneath.

Prabhupāda: But where is the underneath?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See Prabhupāda, we weren't asking that issue. That's not the question we were asking.

Prabhupāda: What is that issue?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you've explained, if it's a lotus petal, then you can fly around it. That's all right. Then the answer is there. But if there's no lotus petal and it's simply flat, then it's a problem. That a problem.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say flat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've pictured it like that. There's some defect in our picture. If you recall, there's a picture we drew...

Prabhupāda: So rectify it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, well how?

Prabhupāda: That is the explanation. Petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See it doesn't say petal anywhere in the Bhāgavatam. It doesn't say Bhārata-varṣa is a lotus petal.

Upendra: Neither does it say it's flat, though.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well I can get the Bhāgavatam right now if you allow me to. It doesn't say... I believe it says Jambūdvīpa is the second part of the lotus, and there aren't petals in the center.

Upendra: It's a transcendental lotus flower.

Prabhupāda: You are prejudiced. That's all. If I can understand, why don't you understand? You are prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well I can understand if I accept it as... I'm only trying to think as the persons who are going to make this planetarium.

Prabhupāda: You are Western. You are prejudiced. That is reason. If I can understand why you...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can understand blindly, but I don't want to do that.

Prabhupāda: I do not understand blindly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I don't want to...

Prabhupāda: Still we differ. That means one of us is prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well it's not Your Divine Grace. (laughter) I mean I'm sorry I have to take this thankless task to ask all these questions.

Prabhupāda: You are also prejudiced. It is written in the śāstra. In that sense we are also prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but we're correctly prejudiced.

Prabhupāda: Just like I take Kṛṣṇa's word. Bas, fact. You can say that you are prejudiced, you see. This is the book.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a nice explanation, the petals.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is prejudiced. But who is rightly prejudiced who is wrongly prejudiced. That is everywhere. Just like materialistic person will think, "Brainwash. These rascals, they have given all up material enjoyment, and after some phantasmagoria they sacrifice everything. Brainwash." And we are thinking, "Oh, these rascals, got this human form of body, he did not understand what is spiritual life." Both of them--he is rascal and he is rascal. This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Is it not? They say, "Brainwash. Unnecessarily they've sacrificed everything." And we say that he got the human form and unnecessarily he is working like cats and...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both are saying the same thing. Obvious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now who is correct? Who will decide? I accuse you, you accuse me. But who is correct? Who will decide? That is śāstra. There is no question of argument. That is called pratiṣṭhā. You will never come to any conclusion by arguing. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. Somebody must decide. Judge. And that is śāstra.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing they say...

Prabhupāda: They say, we are saying so many things. In the court there are two parties. I say something, another party says. The judge is there. He has now decision.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they'll ask for the verse to prove it, and we must quote the correct śloka to substantiate our claim.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That the judge gives. Judges according to lawbook. Tad-vijïānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. So we have to approach the right person who can give the judgment. What is their answer about this, that by chemical combination they cannot produce life? Still why they are insisting?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are rascals.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of rascal's statement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No value. Lunatic asylum.

Prabhupāda: Why if one is settled up that he's a rascal, we should not hear anything. And why not? He has not gone to the moon. They are insisting, "Yes, we have gone," by false propaganda. Why the one who makes false propaganda and one who says nonsense, we have to believe? Immediately, whatever he says, reject. There's no argument. You have proved yourself rascal so we don't accept any statement. What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well I'm just trying to think of the description of Jambūdvīpa.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But be aware you are rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have the practical task of...

Prabhupāda: No test.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No--task.

Prabhupāda: No test. Mother says here is your father. That's all. Finish. You cannot test. Then you are rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not test. I said...

Prabhupāda: No, these things cannot be tested.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I'm not saying...

Prabhupāda: Mother says, "Here is your father." That's all. Finish. No test. No question. That is foolishness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was using the word "task." That to... I'll have to bring in Bhakti-prema Swami. Maybe he can speak better. I'm not able to explain. But according to the description in the Bhāgavatam, everything that we've read, it is not petals. So let's... I don't know. On one hand you are asking us to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam, one portion may not be exactly like... Just like if you are in the midst of the petal, you cannot understand it is petal. You see it is flat. You have shown in the map, there is a point so many miles. So that petal, middle portion, you can take it flat. It is not flat. It is curved. Whatever conception you make, that is defective. Rascals. First of all you have to understand this. So don't make it like this, like this, like this, like... Whatever it is said, that is all right. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said aśraddadhānāḥ. No faith. Faithless. We have challenged, by chemical combination make a small egg, sparrow's egg, and produce.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do anything.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of your experiment? And still they are saying. This one point will kill them. Why do they not take this challenge? Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're rascals. There's no other answer. Only a rascal will go on maintaining that we can create life and they never have.

Prabhupāda: And they are getting Nobel Prize. Just see. Such rascals. And we say on the authority of Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam. This is inferior and that is superior. So how you can make superior with inferior ingredients?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Impossible. Without the superior touch the inferior cannot have any life.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. They're seeing every moment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything has movement... If it's matter it only moves because of some superior force, living force, pushing it or entering it or something.

Prabhupāda: The superior energy is utilizing inferior energy for His purpose. You are utilizing this inferior, the lump of matter, for serving my purpose. That is superior energy. It cannot use me for its purpose.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no purpose.

Prabhupāda: No. I can use it for my purpose. Therefore I am superior. (aside:) Come on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's about three o'clock now.

Prabhupāda: Shall we go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I may have to go for that... I told Bhakti-prema Mahārāja I would meet him at three.

Prabhupāda: Go on. (break) So what is the difficulty?

Bhakti-prema: First we are interested to know...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Take from the middle. (break) It is something new?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. This is the first drawing we did. This is Jambūdvīpa. This is Bhārata....

Bhakti-prema: This is Bhārata-varṣa, Bhūrloka. Now, this is Himalayan mountain going from east to west. This is India.

Prabhupāda: First thing is, these people cannot cross the Himalayan mountain. (aside:) You can turn this light in this way, down. From my practical experience, I have seen Switzerland. It is so high, that so many accidents have taken place. Little inattention. They have experience. The plane goes thirty-two thousand feet high. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Thirty to forty thousand. Say forty thousand maximum.

Prabhupāda: Still they met with accident. But they are saying that Himalaya is twenty-eight thousand feet high.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maximum.

Prabhupāda: What is this? First of all answer this. Everything proposition is wrong. So how we can trust? What is the answer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We cannot trust them.

Prabhupāda: Then? But if you cannot trust them, they're rejected immediately. This is one argument. Another argument, (Bengali). The frog in the well, he's estimating, "This is the limit of water." What he'll understand about Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean? There is so many things. On the whole we are imperfect, and although imperfect, they want to be perfect. That is cheating. Now for argument's sake, if they put some argument, we have to reply. We have to prepare for them. Otherwise they're useless. We know they're useless, but sometimes they put some argument. We have to give answer. This is the position. And our duty is to present picture of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam correct. So what do you have to say? At least some answer you should give.

Yaśodā-nandana: The biggest problem we are discussing... We were thinking that the first question they will ask, this is their conception of the world.

Prabhupāda: We reject them.

Yaśodā-nandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "You are imperfect. So whatever you have written, that is nonsense. And everywhere problem. Why should we waste our time?" Now just try to settle from point of. He's showing this book, I am showing the Bhāgavatam. So you are imperfect, that's a fact. What is the value of your book? If you are basically a rascal, then what is the value of your book? Why shall I waste my time? First of all I take it and I prove it that you are a rascal. You show your book, I show my book. But you have been proved that you are a rascal. Because practically you cannot cross Himalaya. You have no idea what is the Himalaya. You are giving some conflict.

Bhakti-prema: This..., we have to reply to this question. They say if we go, we start from Los Angeles and arrive Japan, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam...

Prabhupāda: Japan and Los Angeles and India, that is not the whole thing.

Bhakti-prema: Yeah, that is not the whole thing, but it is basic point.

Prabhupāda: Huh... Insignificant.

Bhakti-prema: According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, if we start from London...

Prabhupāda: That argument also I have refuted. Just like animal, he is bound up. He is rotating around the log, and within that there may be Japan, there may be Calcutta, there may be Los Angeles. You can think this is there. But that is not all. Within that rounding circle, whatever is there, you may think this is all. But that is not all. He's limited condition. So within his limitation (Bengali). Within that limitation he's speaking. But Himalaya and other things, far beyond their limitation. That I have already explained. He's speaking within his limitation. Our position should be, correctly represent what is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But if there is some question, we should ask. Just like I am answering to the reasonable point. That if you are conditioned, within your condition you can see, you can experience, but beyond that you have no right to see. What is Los Angeles, Calcutta, Japan, this is very insignificant space. And they're talking of that. We are talking that Himalaya mountain, we have crossed over Himalaya, we conquered the outer space. How they can think of it?

Bhakti-prema: How to take them to (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: There is no question of take them. If you take, he's all right. If you don't take, we cannot change.

Bhakti-prema: As long as we cannot show them.

Prabhupāda: First of all you have to prove that you are imperfect.

Bhakti-prema: That has already been proved.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You're simply insisting on things by "probably." "Probably beyond the Himalaya there is something." That is one thing. We say "Definitely, here is. Beyond the Himalayas like this, that." That is the difference. You say "probably," I say "definitely." Father, mother said, "Here is your father." You can say "probably," and mother is saying "definitely." She knows perfectly. You may say probably he may be your father, but mother knows that definitely. Therefore we take Vedas as mother, Purāṇas as sister. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is explaining it. Iti śuśruma. But śuśruma, why he should waste his valuable time? He knows it is definite. So unless you come to this standpoint that whatever is spoken in the Vedic literature, that is definite, you cannot be convinced by argument. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Śukadeva Gosvāmī said--that's all. Mahājano yena. Vaiyāsakiḥ.

svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ

kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ

prahlādo janako bhīṣmo

balir vaiyāsakir vayam

These mahājanas. This is our argument. And for common-sense argument, the Himalaya is very, very high. Very, very broad. You have never crossed and you have met with so many accidents. They avoid that portion, flying plane. And I have seen how high has it gone, then it will be in the clouds. Still they say twenty-eight thousand. Huh? Twenty-eight thousand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-nine thousand.

Prabhupāda: So I conclude like that. When you show this book, accept this authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we show this book it means we're accepting the authority?

Yaśodā-nandana: Not accepting the authority. The problem is the Pacific Ocean, according to Jambūdvīpa, for us it is the salt ocean. So the first question that Mahārāja was raising, that they will ask, how do we go between the west coast of America, which is very tiny, and Japan, as this according to their calculation we go west and we arrive around. And you keep still going further and you arrive back in America. The point about the Himalayas, that we did not raise, because that we could well understood. The Himalayas is much broader and much bigger than they think. We can fully understand it. But that point, from common-sense point of view we couldn't exactly understand. We thought of it all afternoon, and we came up with a few ideas, but we wanted to hear what Your Divine Grace...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our question was mostly coming out of how to draw what the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is saying. We're not supporting any kind of mundane argument, nor do we have any doubt in Bhāgavatam. We're simply trying to understand the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: And that is your credit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why we were meeting.

Prabhupāda: Where is the difficulty?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think that one of the difficulties arose from my seeing this map originally, because in this map it shows the continents that we today speak of as various continents. So when we all looked at this map, our immediate question was, as I said the other day, how do we go from one place to the next? It's not such an unreasonable question. So we're just trying to answer it from the Bhāgavatam--not to give our own speculations, because they're imperfect.

Prabhupāda: That is already answered. You are limited within certain area. So you can conclude in so many ways. Sara bhuri kara, kara bhuri sara.(?) There is a vegetable prepared, the following vegetables are taken: sara, bhuri, and kara. And again you say kara bhuri sara. This way or that way. Sara bhuri kara, kara bhuri sara. That three things, either you take this way consecutively or that way consecutively. But you have got only that kara bhuri sara. You have no experience. There is potato, there is (indistinct), there is (indistinct--Sanskrit). You know these three things. Sara bhuri kara. Kara bhuri sara. Just like they are making arrangement in the laboratory. Companies are there. They present in such a way, that he was flying in the sky, and big sputnik and very small town. Do you know that man came?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Man came and said he could do anything. Make any trick or illusion. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And they have done so in the matter of moon planet. They've never gone there by laboratory arrangement. Arizona?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arizona.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. They might have presented such devices in a book, a different color. Just like medical science. The preparation is nothing, but they'll employ big, big medical students to write in such a way that it will be presented as very important. They are doing this. We have done in Dr. Bose's laboratory. They employ. (speaks garbled words to sound like big words) Go on speaking. (laughter) It sounds very nice. What is the meaning of? (more garbled phrases) So I have got my own common sense. I understand. (indistinct) in the Vedic literatures. (indistinct comments by devotees)

Prabhupāda: That I already told. Prejudiced.

Yaśodā-nandana: I'm not prejudiced. I'm just trying to understand. I'm trying to understand what is the facts according to Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: How you can understand which is beyond your understanding?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is saying he wants to understand according to the Bhāgavatam.

Yaśodā-nandana: Not we're challenging.

Prabhupāda: That you can describe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is what we're having trouble with. We're not trying to do our own thing. We're trying to understand Bhāgavatam. That we're a little stuck on some point.

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata is there. You try to understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not siding with the preconceptions that we had before. We'll throw them away. We're trying to accept the Bhāgavatam. Everything has to be according to the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Make it nice. We are going to spend so much money, people may not reject it. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like as we're talking, we're a little... Sometimes it's difficult to understand the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: But I take it simply--that there is ocean, and it was churned. So there is no difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Mostly we have understood. Only in one place we are a little...

Prabhupāda: But nobody has seen that ocean. And nobody can believe that ocean can be churned. Would you believe it? Because it is. And the Vāsuki was taken as rope.

Bhakti-prema: And this Mandara mountain, fifty thousand miles high, was taken there, carried by.

Prabhupāda: And it was born by tortoise incarnation.

Bhakti-prema: This is combined with description.

Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. What is beyond your conception, don't try to. So that is Vedic civilization. They were satisfied with information received from the Vedas.

Bhakti-prema: The first and last thing we have to prove logically that this is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Logically you cannot. Acintya. Logic comes when it is conceivable; but it is inconceivable. Where is your logic?

Bhakti-prema: But first to prove them right understanding we have to bring them.

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. Acintya.

Yaśodā-nandana: If such a thing as going from one place to the other on earth, this is cintya, this is conceivable.

Prabhupāda: Argument is there when it is conceivable. It is inconceivable. Kṛṣṇa lifted Govardhana. Seven years old, six years old. How it is conceivable? But devotees, they are crying, "Oh, Giri-vara-dhārī." And the Māyāvādīs they say kalpanāyā. The Akhandananda was saying. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is narrating something kalpanāyā and wasting his time?

Bhakti-prema: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is acintya for the Māyāvādīs. They say kalpanāyā. These Akhandananda and other Māyāvādīs, they explain Bhāgavata-kalpanāyā. They are making some imagination that "I am God," but they are alleging us, that "You are in illusion." God, as soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. He's such a rascal hypocrite. There was some heart attack going on, so Akhandananda, immediately he called one of his chief disciples, that Mishra, Jasri, and he was taken to Bombay hospital. And he's God.

Bhakti-prema: He's expired?

Prabhupāda: Expired? No, no. He's living. But talking all nonsense, reading Bhāgavatam, and hundreds of people go to the...

Bhakti-prema: Today we were discussing...

Prabhupāda: That difference of opinion will continue. You cannot stop.

Bhakti-prema: This Pacific Ocean is saltwater...

Prabhupāda: Why you are trying to adjust Pacific Ocean? Pacific Ocean, any ocean, it is just like kūpa-maṇòūka. It is very big for you, but you are a very teeny identity. Take the universe. What is the Pacific? Is it not a drop. There are so many Pacific Oceans floating in the sky. Everything is acintya. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇòa-nāthāḥ. This is acintya. So acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. You cannot make an experiment or see it. Take some information from the authority and be satisfied. With your limited knowledge, if you want to bring it to experiment, that is not possible. That is not possible.

Bhakti-prema: If this is the background I can give a lot of material. But they want logic.

Prabhupāda: Where is the logic?

Yaśodā-nandana: I don't want any logic. The scientists will come to the planetarium and ask...

Prabhupāda: How they can? Scientist is rascal. That is proved. They are insisting that chemical can produce life. He's a rascal. They have gone to moon planet. That's a rascal. So what is the value of so-called scientist. Why should we give any importance? I'm not giving any importance. If you become scientist, that so much ghee and so much āṭā makes puri, and we can eat very nicely, all right, you are a scientist. But so much chemicals, make it life--prove that. The confectioner is also scientist. He knows very well how to do his business. A carpenter is also scientist. Here is some work nice done by the carpenter. I cannot do it. You may be a great scientist, but me? It is not possible for me to do a carpentry work. In this way it is going on. (Bengali) You have learned something, you can do it very nicely. But I cannot do it. For me it will be beating by the rod if I am given this work. I can translate, my work. So everyone is scientist, his own field of activities, to some extent. You cannot make everyone agree. That is not... Vox populi you cannot. That is not possible. What is that vox populi?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: General population.

Prabhupāda: Mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So what is the value of vox populi? I concluded. Munayāḥ sādhu te 'ham. Huh? What is that? Munayāḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham. Loka-maìgalam. Yenātmā suprasīdati. So Kṛṣṇa's childhood pastime, enjoyed by mother Yaśodā, others will think, "What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa is breaking the butterpot and it is taken as sublime?" They'll think like that.

Bhakti-prema: Kṛṣṇa opened His mouth, His mother Yaśodā saw all this universe.

Prabhupāda: And first of all she became surprised. And next moment, "Whatever it is, my dear Kṛṣṇa, You come on my lap." So it is not for all.

Bhakti-prema: Therefore we should name it Esoteric Geography.

Prabhupāda: Journal?

Bhakti-prema: Esoteric.

Prabhupāda: Yes, esoteric I know. Journal?

Bhakti-prema: Geography.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Esoteric and exoteric. But one thing is that it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. If you think that ignorance is bliss, then why should we waste our time and money?

Yaśodā-nandana: Prabhupāda, what is the shape of this tiny portion of earth or whatever place we are on? What is the shape of this, whatever you call...

Prabhupāda: Ask them. Why don't you ask them? Sometimes they say flat, sometimes they say it is round. Why don't you ask them, the scientists?

Yaśodā-nandana: We don't accept what they say.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Formerly they were under the impression the world is flat. And now they are saying round. So what they'll say after few years?

Yaśodā-nandana: They are not consistent. That's a fact. They're very inconsistent in their theories.

Prabhupāda: Ask them which is correct. "Probably" this is correct.

Bhakti-prema: When someone asks this question, first one would reply.

Prabhupāda: I answered it. You people say like that, so which is correct? Flat or round?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will say "What does the Bhāgavatam say?"

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may reply to us, "All right, we are rascals. So please tell us what is the fact."

Prabhupāda: That is, we are...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he's asking. What should be shown? Actually we're a little stumped by... I mean...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have proper answer as far as possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We just read... We got a version from South India, and we've even found that there are different conceptions of what the Bhāgavata is saying. But the Purāṇas, they give some Puranic references.

Bhakti-prema: It is written the world... The earth is round and flat.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhakti-prema: Earth is round and flat both, together.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-prema: First we should reply it is acintya. This should be the reply. "Inconceivable."

Yaśodā-nandana: If it is inconceivable, then they will say how we can conceive it?

Prabhupāda: Take the version of Bhāgavatam.

Bhakti-prema: Everything we conceived, that is wrong?

Prabhupāda: Everything you conceived, that is wrong. Yes. Therefore inconceivable.

Bhakti-prema: The Lord is inconceivable always and any (indistinct), it is inconceivable.

Prabhupāda: But we have to accept śāstra.

Bhakti-prema: This outer structure of the Lord is one with the Lord. It is inconceivable; it is not conceivable.

Prabhupāda: Acintya-guṇa-svarūpam. Acintya-guṇa-svarūpam. Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa. Acintya. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Acintya.

Bhakti-prema: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Give me that pineapple juice. (break)

Bhakti-prema: If it is inconceivable, then don't try to...

Prabhupāda: We are not lying to you.

Bhakti-prema: ...draw.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're drawing according to the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: We're not conceiving it. It is already there.

Bhakti-prema: Then it is conceived, he says.

Prabhupāda: Conceived not by me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by us. By the Unlimited.

Prabhupāda: I am imperfect. That is the difference.

Bhakti-prema: Yes. It is conceivable by you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: By Śukadeva... Not even Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He says śuśruma.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I heard."

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu abhijïaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā. Brahma hṛdā. This is Brahmā. Ādi-kavaye. The Brahmā is very significant. Ādi-kavaye. So it is coming that way.

Bhakti-prema: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-prema: Scholars

Prabhupāda: This is their... Apauruṣeyam. Actually India's culture is going on that way. Mass of people, they are going to Prayāga for taking bath. What do they know? They have received it from authorities that if you take bath in such and such place... Ah, lakhs of people will go. That is India's culture. Without any advertisement, without any means, walking hundreds of miles they are coming, yes, that is their culture. And the government is perturbed that people are so prejudiced. So how to make them forget? This is going on. But they don't listen. They just, "If I take bath I'll..." That is the difference between Western and Eastern. And as soon as there is interpretation, it is Māyāvāda. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has rejected--māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. You see in the Kumbhamela how peacefully they are sitting. They are accepting Vedic culture. So nice atmosphere. Simply by going there you'll be satisfied. That is the difference between East and West.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti...

Therefore tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. There is no other. Submissive. (break) Guru. Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante. The author is revealed to him. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve. Otherwise not. So do it as far as possible to your capacity. But things are inconceivable. You cannot adjust within the limitation of your understanding. That is not...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's... We're trying to impose some preconceived idea onto this. As soon as that happens, this knowledge is blocked. Because the whole attitude shouldn't be like that. One should come out of service and devotion, not with some mental, materialistic speculations.

Prabhupāda: Did you know that story, the Nārada was going to Vaikuṇṭha? Nārada came back and replied to a cobbler... Cobbler asked him what Nārāyaṇa is doing. "He has taken one elephant and He's drawing through the hole of a needle like this and again taking." The learned brāhmaṇa, he began to laugh. "These are all stories." And the cobbler began to cry, "Oh, Nārāyaṇa, Kṛṣṇa, can..." Nārada inquired, "How do you believe that elephant is being drawn through the hole of needle?" "No, why not? I'm daily seeing by sitting under this banyan tree, and within a fruit there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains the big tree." Can the scientists make such small seed contain a big banyan tree? So it is acintya. That's a fact. (break) ...thing is inconceivable. And these rascals want to bring them as conceivable. He's conditioned, and he's trying to bring inconceivable thing to his conception. Useless, futile attempt. How the scientist will answer? We take a fruit. There are hundreds of seeds, and each seed contains a big tree. How you can explain? Is it not inconceivable?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is the use of arguing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's better to take the fruit and offer it to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's right. We take it as accepted, mahā-muni kṛte. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām.

Bhakti-prema: Vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam, śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt.

Prabhupāda: Śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. There is no other way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a very good lesson, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You do not require to be puffed-up with your so-called education. It has no value. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      July 5, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                            503214

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still, there is nothing so palatable as nice prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy. From milk you can make. From òāl. Urad òāl.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grains.

Prabhupāda: Jackfruit, this banana. Then banana fruit... Banana, what is called? Flour.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Banana flour.

Prabhupāda: If it is made properly, you can taste lobster.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I noticed that some of these different things... Just like jackfruit.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Jackfruit, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, if it's cooked in a particular way...

Prabhupāda: Jackfruit is also called "vegetable meat."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Vegetable meat."

Prabhupāda: Lajpata.(?) Or a vegetable mutton. During my daughter's marriage, the hired cook, they made from this flour of banana, cutlet. Nobody could understand that it is vegetable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were present at that time?

Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not allow to cook fish, so the guests were given that vegetable cutlet. And they could not understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were satisfied.

Prabhupāda: They said, "We could not understand that it is vegetable."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They must have been laughing.

Prabhupāda: Later on, after eating.

                                                                                                                                                                        503334

Prabhupāda: So this kind of, that "I do not know who is Vivekananda." "Oh! You do not know?" Then you can know what he is. Then he can say, "This is his philosophy." Then you criticize, "This is nonsense!" Let him present Vivekananda's philosophy and smash it. Let the other party present Gandhi's philosophy and you crush it by kicking. That is the opportunity. Otherwise it will be the same philosophy, to kill that... What is that animal?

Devotees: Skunk.

Prabhupāda: Skunk, and the hand becomes badly flavored. Hm? (break) Therefore three books, Bhagavad-gītā... All my other small books, they are also on the basis. That Topmost Yoga, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Easy Journey to Other Planets is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Why shall I waste? I don't want to waste time. In this condition of life I try to write book because I do not try to waste my time. All right, I am not having sleep. Let me try at night. If I can write one, two lines, that's all right. I don't want to read any other book or criticize or play. Waste of time. What is that first verse? Kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. Where it is?

Śatadhanya: That's from Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Just see. You do not read. Find. Bring Bhāgavata, the first part. (coughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the verse?

Prabhupāda: Kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. First of all, first chapter. First chapter, second verse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The second verse of the first chapter.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ

vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte, then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Kiṁ vā paraiḥ: "What is the use of other śāstra? Here is the essence of śāstra given by Mahāmuni Vyāsadeva. Take it." That is final.

                                                                                                                                                                        503372

Prabhupāda: If we introduce this Ratha-yātrā in every city, all other religions will be finished. (laughs) Eh?

                                                                                                                                                                        503401

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Aid the Fresh Air Fund." This is a fund. They collect millions of dollars for keeping the air fresh. But they never think why the air has become unfresh due to all these foolish industries pumping so many obnoxious things into the air. That they won't stop. But they'll devise new machines to clean the air.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So here is one of the machine. That we are creating, the farms. Air fresh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is fresh air.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes when you go to the farm... I would go there every week. I would immediately become... The air is so clean that it makes you exhausted to breathe it almost. You're not even used to it. You get so much...

Prabhupāda: Immediately you become refresh, immediately, as soon as you see the fresh milk, fresh vegetables.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember how you felt when you came there? You liked it very much. You got a big appetite when you went there.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Well, this is my condition. I would have... Otherwise I would have gone there. Very nice and fresh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's time for your massage, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Now we shall go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll be over by... (break)

Prabhupāda: Human form of body or in the form of this insect. And karmīs, they're trying to improve their... (microphone moving) That is their ignorance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They never get tired of trying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They think by changing the body... (microphone moving) ...demigod's... That is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra. The facility is in that you have to die, you have to take again birth and again begin the same tasting, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. No improvement of taste but improvement of the container. If you go by bullock cart and if you go by motorcar, the transport is the same. But we are thinking, "Now we have improved scientific." That's all. First of all improve that you'll not die. Because you are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. So where is that improvement? That improvement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today in the class we read a purport of Your Divine Grace's from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, a very beautiful purport in which the verse says that Bhārata-varṣa is karma-kṣetra. It is the place for fruitive activities. And the other varṣas is where you enjoy the results of those activities. So then you explain the verse, that how the living entity is wandering all over the material universe, but actually he has not improved his condition at all. It is... You explain that it's simply a waste of time. He's not using his human form of life. So when you come on this planet, you should use it to get a guru. Otherwise, simply wandering up and down, up and down.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān. This information is obtained by the most fortunate person. What is the use of wandering in this way?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That verse was in the purport. You quoted it there also.

Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Foolish persons are trying to improve. So what is that improvement? The same struggle for existence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. I use that "survival of the fittest," I said, "But who is fit?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What you had said the other... And then I told them, "The four-legged..."

Prabhupāda: Four-legged dog race.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dog race.

Prabhupāda: It is a great poison. Only fortunate person, they can understand what is the value of Kṛṣṇa, only fortunate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it says, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya, bhakti-latā-bīja. So it's fortunate because the guru gives the...

Prabhupāda: So that fortune is... By fortune he gets a guru. And by the instruction of guru he gets Kṛṣṇa. So to create fortune we have to take this regulative principle, to become fortunate that someday he'll be able to meet somebody who is real guru and who will give him real guidance. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Therefore pious activities and other things, yajïa-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā, these things are recommended, to acquire the qualities of brāhmaṇa. These things are required. If he remains like animal, that fortune will never come. This is the architecture. So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way. Fortune does not come that "This is very important. Man is the architect of his own fortune." He must accept some process to become fortunate. And if you want to become fortunate through the rich man, you should enter... (microphone moving) ...just like businessman... (microphone moving) And without doing something, how you can get fortune? That is now... There is no such program. The program is just a animal program: eating, sleeping, mating and defend. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important, to give them the fortune, not immediately but our immediate future, by acting in this way, he'll be fortunate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to show the example of how to act.

Prabhupāda: That is there, the rules and regulations. This Deity worship is accepting regulative principle, abide by the orders of guru. That is there. This is the process. Just like all our disciples, they write that "We have got now life." Because they are trying to follow, they are getting--gradually, gradually.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

mālī haïā kare sei bīja āropaṇa

śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana

It is like a creeper. So you get the seed from guru and sow it and regularly pour water. That watering is śravaṇa-kīrtana. Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana. How simplified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has made everything very simplified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyaḥ. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi-mādhāi, brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei. Kṛṣṇa is coming. He has come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to deliver these pāpīs and tāpīs. Whole process is scientific. It is not (laughs) the Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. It is not that. What do they know? Or Gandhi. They are also trying for the betterment, but they do not accept the standard process. Everyone is trying. That is struggle for existence. So who is fittest? The fittest is the devotee. He'll survive. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. I have now explained how Kṛṣṇa became subordinate to devotee. (turns on dictaphone, plays back from tape:) "Yamarāja, controller of all living entities, is afraid of the order of Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother's stick. This contradictory thing cannot be understood by one who is not devotee. Devotee can understand how much powerful is unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, so much so He can be controlled by such devotee. Bhṛtya-vaśyata. That means under the control of the servant, but He is under the control of pure love by the servant. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, we see, Kṛṣṇa became the chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Here Kṛṣṇa has agreed... (break) '...my chariot...' (break) '...to execute my order. Place my chariot between the two party soldiers.' Kṛṣṇa immediately executed his order. One may argue in this connection that Kṛṣṇa is also not independent. This is ajïāna, ignorance. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. When He becomes subordinate to the devotees He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Humor of transcendental qualities increases transcendental pleasure. One who worships Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore sometimes desires to be controlled by somebody controller. Nobody else... (break) ...pure devotee." (end of tape playback section) Everyone worships Him as the Supreme, but sometimes He desires, "Somebody will control over."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your purports have such wonderful realization. They are completely nectar to read and hear.

                                                                                                                                                                        503443

Prabhupāda: (break) ...the modern kīrtana. Kīrtanāt... (break) "We shall improve our economic condition for more and more sense gratification." And that is the mistake. People are trying for that. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā. Yāvad artha-prayojanam. Whatever money is required for maintaining, that's all. And as soon as we increase the so-called standard of happiness by sense gratification, then there is trouble. That is going on all over the world. They want money. They're not satis... "More money. More money. More money." Why more money? If you can live comfortably with certain amount of money, be satisfied in that way. Why more?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unnecessary.

Prabhupāda: Unnecessary, and increase anxiety.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The worries increase.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why more? Live very comfortably and be advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How much can you eat more than your share?

Prabhupāda: We have seen many persons... The other day, he was our member. One Mr. Agarwal? Very rich man. He committed suicide falling down from the bridge to the Ganges. What is that? Very rich man. The happiness cannot be attained in that way. Happiness is in Kṛṣṇa. It is so sublime that... Dhruva Mahārāja went for kingdom, and he performed austerities. When he saw Kṛṣṇa he said, "I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I came to ask You something, but I am now fully satisfied." That is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir... yayātmā supra... You want to satisfy your ātmā. So that can be satisfied when you are fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise simply by material wealth, increasing your economic position, that is not... They do not know it. The European civilization, they are struggling very hard--colonization, industrialization, this... (end)

 

 

 

Room Conversation                                       July 6, 1977, Vrndavana                                                           503518

Prabhupāda: He cannot express what is his inconvenience, and he's feeling one inconvenience, and the mother is trying to make him happy in other way. He's crying more, more, more, more. Where is happiness? Within the womb there was unhappiness, packed-up. When he comes down there is unhappiness. Then go to school, take education, appear for examination--that is unhappiness. Then grow up, then engage in some earning money--that is unhappiness. Then maintain your children, and that is unhappiness. Where is happiness, rascals? Rascal. Both are suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Without Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of happiness.

Prabhupāda: This is simply anarthas, unnecessary creating unhappiness. Unnecessary.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But with Kṛṣṇa, all those things you describe become happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa makes adjustment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and He is giving advice that "Do like this. You'll be happy in this life and next."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we work all day long--no salary, no vacation--and we're...

Prabhupāda: Still, they are happy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...feeling ecstasy.

Prabhupāda: Every letter I receive from my disciple, how happy they are, it is explained.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every letter it's the same.

Prabhupāda: Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme...

Devotees: Prabhu sei.

Prabhupāda: Prabhu sei. So this eye-opening is given by guru. Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. Then?

Śatadhanya: Divya-jïān hṛde prokāśito.

Prabhupāda: Divya-jïān hṛde prokāśito. Oh, he understands, "This is the way of happiness." Śrī-guru-caraṇe rati, ei sei uttama-gati, ār nā koriho mane āśā. That if one gets just guide, then that is happiness. Otherwise there is no happiness. Śrī-guru-caraṇa-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma... Hm?

Bhakti-caru: Bandoì mui sāvadhāna...

Prabhupāda: Bandoì mui sāvadhāna. So fortunately we got right guru. He has given us the way how to live, and that is happiness. Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham... What is that verse I referred?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today? Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra nirmatsarāṇām.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maìgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśno yenātmā suprasīdati. Happiness is there. Unless you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no question of... This is a false happiness, that "If I get money, I'll be happy." That is false. So many men, they have got money. We see practically. The whole European civilization, American civilization, is based on this fundamental idea that "Let us have money and we shall be happy." And nobody is happy. Nobody is happy, a single man. Very big, big buildings, very nice car, very nice road, but there is no question of happiness. Always restlessness. Is it not? They are practically proved. And becoming implicated, karma-bandha, loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ, one after another, one after another. Because he is not independent, he is under karma-bandhana. If you touch fire, it must burn you. You cannot avoid it. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sar..., ahaìkāra-vimūòha. Are you independent? Suppose if you touch fire, are you independent that your finger will not burn? It must burn. So you'll search after so much so-called happiness--they're simply burning their finger, that's all. Karma-bandhanaḥ. Yajïārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. So I'm insisting you about this distribution of the book. That is a service. If you can do some pushing on these books some way or other, you get material profit; at the same time, it is service.

                                                                                                                                                                        503550

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Provided they take up the step. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and pāni will come from up, not from the ground. Otherwise Gītā is false. Yajïād bhavati parjanyaḥ. (Hindi) That is going on. (Hindi) This is the way. The nature is forcing, yajïa. Yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. Perform yajïa. And in Kali-yuga the yajïa is so easy. Saìkīrtanair yajïaiḥ, yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ.

 

Room Conversation                                     July 7, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                            503560

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's says he's trying to increase the book distribution by arranging a big door-to-door program.

Prabhupāda: That is my earnest desire. Fulfill it.

 

 

Room Conversation                                     July 14, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           504319

Prabhupāda: ...actually what benefit to the human society? But technology, or high technology. Just like Indian technology.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't see any benefit. I see that they only get trouble.

Prabhupāda: In India the caste system was very good. From the very beginning the children would learn the technology of their paternal. Just like potter. You'll see the children of the potter, they are also making a small bird, a small fruit, and they would be sold. A small playing utensils--small glass, small plate--they're also sold. Other children would purchase. The whole family used to earn something. Nowadays they're sent to school, wasting time, and then unemployment and idle brain. What is the use of sending a potter's son to school?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, everything he needs to know, he can learn at home.

Prabhupāda: That's what I... Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees. Unnecessarily he has to earn this money and pay to the millionaires, and he will keep three dozen motorcars, so another man will be engaged in motorcar industry. In this way time is being wasted without any search after spiritual realization. Time is wasted in such so-called technology advancement. And the real purpose of life, jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā, that is missing. And when you present that "This is the most important business of life," they say, "It is brainwashing." And they fight to check us, Communists and others, that "It is useless, God consciousness." (break) (long pause) So... Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Because they are missing the aim of life, they are committing suicide. And this varṇāśrama-dharma was planned in such a way that everyone would be spiritually advanced. The weaver will get, the potter will get, the blacksmith will get, the brāhmaṇa is already there, kṣatriya will get--everyone. For them, lower-class men, demigod worship. At least they are accepting there is some higher authority. Among the blacksmith there is viśvakarma-pūjā. One day they will wash all the instruments of blacksmith. Somehow or other, all are cleaned. And with the fruit, with flower, candana, they'll worship.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worship the instruments? What is that called?

Prabhupāda: Viśvakarma-pūjā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśvakarma-pūjā, oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇas will regularly come, worship Viśvakarmā or demigods. Viśvakarmā is the engineer of the demigods. Some demigod also they will worship. Even the butcher will worship goddess Kālī, then he will apply the knife to the throat of the animal. Even the butcher. Recognition of higher authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would the blacksmiths do the pūjā to Viśvakarmā, or brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa will do. Similarly, the spice merchants, they'll worship Gaìgeśvarī. The gold merchant worships Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who would do that?

Prabhupāda: Gold merchant. The student will worship Sarasvatī. The merchant will worship Gaṇeśa, Lakṣmī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gaṇeśa, hm.

Prabhupāda: Some sort of worship is there and instruction, many narratives. Women were advised to worship the Yamarāja, Sāvitrī, Satyavān. Then there was saṁskāras, purificatory method, out of which the higher class will be sacred thread ceremony. Always something spiritual, according to the... And actually learning Vedic knowledge, that was by the brāhmaṇas. They would give advice; people will follow. Brāhmaṇo jagato guruḥ. Just like Gargamuni came to Nanda Mahārāja. He took advantage of Gargamuni and performed some purificatory ceremony of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Why these big, big institutions for wasting time and dating between girls and boys, and then they learn expert how to kill child, how to make abortion? Expert. Simply concentration on sex. Then become hippie. Frustration. Worship hog. Do they not?

                                                                                                                                                                        504369

(pause) So many... Actually we enjoyed life in our childhood. Although we were not very nicely dressed and not very comfortable, the so-called comfortable. We could sleep anywhere. We did not require any nice dress or nice food. My mother used to prepare very nice food. We were glad in that way. Nice paraṭā, nice vegetable, ācāra, so many things she used to prepare. Always preparing some food. Puffed rice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was cooking with ghee?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our family with ghee. Some fried. That is used, oil.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fried portal.

Prabhupāda: Ghee and oil, both were used. Where is that happiness gone?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one's happy nowadays.

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is struggle. Communist, this, that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you still see a little bit of that happiness in smaller towns.

Prabhupāda: No, in the village. They have got enough milk, grains. Is it not? Grāmete dudha dhana cala ekhana nai, gatas paya.(?) Eh? Fruit. They import. They make them poverty-stricken. If the villagers do not sell, ample fruit. But these townsmen, they go there, pay them, and out of greediness they sell their own food only for money. And then they spend for drinking and cinema and... Horrible civilization. Those packets, bring here. (Bengali conversation)

 

Room Conversation(2)                                 July 14, 1977, Vrndavana                                                          504232

Prabhupāda: I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my Guru Mahārāja.

 

Room Conversation                                      July 15, 1977, Vrndavana                                                          504509

...honest, satisfied with simple living. Where do...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People don't even know those things at all.

Prabhupāda: Everyone was satisfied with simple living. They did not want much income.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now everyone is in anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Because they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, there was no anxiety.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That could be the only explanation. What about the Mussulmen?

Prabhupāda: They were also happy. They were also religious, according to their own way. Within, say, seventy years so much change has taken place. Horrible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any valuable, any benefits that took place? Any good things? Only...

Prabhupāda: Change, change for the worse.

                                                                                                                                                                        504520

Prabhupāda: No. (pause) We read from Bhāgavatam they held meeting that "We must shift from this place. The demons are disturbing. For the benefit of Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma we must change this place." So the meeting was held in the morning, and they decided, "Let us immediately leave." So...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How long did it take them to shift?

Prabhupāda: Just hearing, adyaiva, today, and immediately began. So how simple living was.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they could shift in one day they must have lived so simple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at this Mr. Myer. He has to go flying down to Madras, close his account, do this, do this. How complicated life has become. And they were householders.

Prabhupāda: And they shifted very organizedly. The cows, tuck bag, then the guards with bows and arrows, then old men, women, children in carts.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were in carts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By procession...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The early pioneers in America, they would also go in the wagons, covered wagons. Now I understand we have one wagon going in America. It's heading towards Washington under the banner of "Simple Living and High Thinking." That will be unique.

Prabhupāda: And everywhere, how they were well dressed, well fed, and rich in milk products. When called, people, the brāhmaṇas give in charity cows, not at all poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were reading that one king gave fourteen lakhs' elephants covered in gold, and another king was giving something like 21,000 cows to each brāhmaṇa. Who could imagine? Now the only kind of cows anyone will give you is those that don't give milk.

Prabhupāda: The cows were decorated with cloth, gold necklace, and heaps of grains.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cow horns were sometimes with gold on the end.

Prabhupāda: That means gold and silver and jewels and cloth sump..., more than... Milk products, grains. This was richness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now all there is is tin and plastic. Tin can. Food is in the tin cans, and you eat it off of plastic.

Prabhupāda: And paper plate.

 

Room Conversation              July 17, 1977, Vrndavana                       504783                                                                                                                       Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa baòo doyāmoy, koribāre jihwā jay. Kṛṣṇa-prasāda... (Bengali conversation) The real fact is that this jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One life is food for another life. That is nature's way. But one has to pass through so many varieties of life, evolution. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. How many millions of years we'll take to evolve to become a human being. Then he gets chance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Payeche mānava janma, mano raïjanam alpa.(?) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Emona janma, this janma, manuṣya-janma. And if we miss and don't get Kṛṣṇa, again glide down. Mām aprāpya mṛtyu-saṁsāra. Again you fall down. I'll eat you; you eat me. And the aquatic, 900,000 species, varieties of life. The same struggle, one fish eating another fish. Struggle within the water. A small fish can understand three miles away a big fish is coming. It is all stated in the Bhāgavata. This struggle is going on. Then in the jungle animals. The man-eater trees are there in Africa. Trees, man, eat man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do they do that?

Prabhupāda: You go, and if you are in touch on that tree, then you cannot get out. You'll die and you'll become dead.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They eat you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the tree.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They eat through the roots.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spider, big, big spider.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a thing called the Venus Fly Trap. It's this special plant, and if anything goes near it, it goes like that. Maybe they have big ones in Africa.

Prabhupāda: Simply eating competition. These American... It's called surfer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: American?

Prabhupāda: What is that sport, surfer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Surfing. You mean on the board in the water? Surfing.

Prabhupāda: So they may become fish next life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you said that in a lecture in Hawaii in our temple. I remember. That really gave everybody a thought. Food for thought.

Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                July 17, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                           504570

Prabhupāda: ...gṛhastha life. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura independently... Or I was also gṛhastha. Our aim was different. But this neophyte, if they remain aloof from temple connection without attending the function, gradually they will be lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the reason that I suggested to Abhirāma Prabhu that he should make his business in Bombay. Actually the gṛhasthas have no desire to live independent of the temples. Just like Mādhavānanda, he's got an apartment now just near the temple so that he can attend maìgala-ārati and the other functions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless these things are continued, the karmīs' poison will spoil them. He can do independent business; there is no harm. But must be connected with the devotional service.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just like Abhirāma constructed that house. That's all right. He is within the campus. There is no harm. And now if he goes away after so much training, advancement, if they are lost, then that's a great loss for the Society. With such... With great difficulty we make one Vaiṣṇava. And again, if he goes like Śyāmasundara, then it is great loss. The whole idea is to give up attachment for material world and increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now, according to one's position, gradually... But this is the aim. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Nivṛtti.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think Abhirāma has any intention of going away.

Prabhupāda: No, he has no intention, but he lives apart from temple connection...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he will go away automatically.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's not possible, then, for him to go to Bangalore, 'cause we have no center in Bangalore.

Prabhupāda: So he wants to organize a center there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he was thinking of organizing business.

Prabhupāda: Then Bombay is better place than Bangalore.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He admits it's a better place. No, he can be encouraged very easily to go to Bombay. I mean, generally, throughout our Society, I don't think the trend of the gṛhasthas is to move away from temples and live independently. If they live independently from the temple, it's in close...

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is chance, I said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The karmīs' association is very contaminous. Asat-saìgī. So for him the best thing will be to take a room in Bombay. Let him do business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure now that... I'll convey all...

Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha should not be dependent on Society. At the same time, he should not be independent of the Society. (laughs) This is the position. Because Society cannot take charge of a family. There will be so many number of families. How it is possible? At the same time, if they remain independently of the Society, without touch, then the karmīs' poison will infect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like the solution is to get apartments near the temple, get room near the temple.

Prabhupāda: Why not in the temple? Why? If he pays, what is wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, in a place like Bombay where we have so many buildings, in the temple. But sometimes... Just like in America, if there's only one building with only...

Prabhupāda: No, America also... Just like Los Angeles we have got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's different. There there are apartments.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, you have to arrange like that. They should not live completely independent. That will be future danger.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has to be a community of devotees.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious ideal gṛhasthas. That we want. Just like Bhaktivinoda Öhākura. There are many. I was gṛhastha. There was Deity worship, everything nice. I was publishing Back to Godhead from gṛhastha. So aim was there. But I could not leave family life for some circumstances. That is a different thing. Must be in touch with the devotional service as in the temple. If live nearby temple, it is easier, or in the temple. But aloof, that is dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they live in the temple, then there's the problem of... You know.

Prabhupāda: No. Temple, he can take one room, pay for it. He wants to pay. That is also payment. And further, if he can pay, that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America, supposing a householder family pays for a room in our temple building. So they can have their sex life and family life?

Prabhupāda: If they can pay for prasādam also, it is nice. Sex... Husband-wife living, there must be sex, so who can...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how can that be in the same building as the brahmacārī ashram?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, so many other gṛhastha tenants.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's in, like, Hare Kṛṣṇa Land in Bombay. But supposing in a...

Prabhupāda: That you cannot check. Gṛhastha means they must have sex. But they're living independent, separately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's in Hare Kṛṣṇa Land.

Prabhupāda: No, anywhere. If they are doing independent business, let them do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in the New York...

Prabhupāda: Karmīs' concession, sex.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the New York they can live families together? In that building, families can live together and have sex life?

Prabhupāda: What is wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that building. It's all right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? In a building there are so many different types of men. In a big building, apartment building, you cannot expect all of them of the same class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. 'Cause in Bombay you had said that is was better that in an immediate building of the temple they should not live together with wife. They should live separately.

Prabhupāda: No, that is, they are not doing business. They are attached to temple activities. Anyway, these things have to be adjusted. You cannot follow very rigid in case of gṛhasthas. Some way or other, you have to adjust. We cannot allow them to be lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's clear.

Prabhupāda: Better allow them to live together. What can be done? But we cannot lose them. After training so much, if they are lost, then that is a great loss. This I am giving hint. Now you GBC, you change them. Make process.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Right now in our Society throughout the world, wherever there are gṛhasthas living in our temples, they live separate from their wives. And if they want to live with their wives, then they get a room or an apartment near the temple.

Prabhupāda: So may be like that, but must be attached to the temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the clear point. We should not lose anyone.

Prabhupāda: No, that's a great loss.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because if husband and wife live together in the temple itself, where there are so many brahmacārīs and... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...he makes love with a girl and marries and live at the cost of Society, and that is to be discouraged. If you want to marry, you work independently. Maintain yourself. And whatever you can contribute, do that. That is the... Just like Abhirāma. He's very good. And I don't want to be lost. He constructed that house, I never forbade. And it is in the campus. Let him remain a little separately. It doesn't matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the main reason he can't live there anymore is that because of doing business he'll not always be able to be in Māyāpura, and he doesn't feel that that house is safe for his wife to live there alone.

Prabhupāda: Why alone? Can live with others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Other householders there also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Many householders can live there together.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There's room on the floor below...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...his apartment for two other families. I don't know what...

Prabhupāda: That can be arranged. That is not...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think he feels it's safe enough.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is incidental. This is not permanent problem.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know what's behind it. I don't know the full reason why he doesn't want to stay there anymore.

Prabhupāda: If he wants to do business, how he can stay there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. There's no business in Māyāpura.

Prabhupāda: What is business there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to go where there's a business center.

Prabhupāda: No, business means he must do business in some city.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Bombay is the best city. He has got facility to stay there. For business Bombay is the best city.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India.

Prabhupāda: In India. No, world. It is a very important city. Export, import, local. Tremendous business possibility there. Many poor men goes and becomes very rich men. Bombay is very important center. You have to get a place by giving bribe, fifty thousand, sixty thousand, to stay there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call that huṇòi.

Prabhupāda: Not huṇòi.

Bhakti-caru: Pagri.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pagri, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Pagri, yes. To get a place there... Bombay is so important that if you want to get a place you have to pay no less, fifty thousand, lakh of rupees to stand. Then do business. Very important. Anything you do, you must have land first of all to stand. Otherwise what you'll do? To stand in Bombay you have to pay lakh of... Don't you see--we drive away the tenants--how much we recompense. We pay compensation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have to pay a lot of money...

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...so that they can pay for some other place.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's true. Nowadays it's very difficult.

Prabhupāda: This is system in Bombay. Without paying, you cannot get even inch of land.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Trivikrama Mahārāja told me in Japan it's getting like that also, Tokyo.

Prabhupāda: Wherever there is scarcity, that is the system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America that is not there.

Prabhupāda: America, enough places.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have paying a few months' rent, but not pagri.

Prabhupāda: There are so many houses. Why they should pay?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Multi-story building. Why people should pay? Now Bombay have got many multi-story building; therefore that demand is reduced. But still, you have to pay in important place, pagri or underhand. What is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bribe.

Prabhupāda: Bribe is very bad word. "Under table." (chuckling)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Under the table. Unofficial.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mean I am paying on the table hundred rupees and under table two hundred rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think you know everything spiritual and material.

Prabhupāda: Hm? So my fear is that after training our men so much, if he's lost, that's a great loss. Then future of society becomes very hopeless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the principle is that if a householder has outside employment and can pay, then he can live inside our temple buildings.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. What is the wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least for five or six years now the system has been that no man and woman should live together in the same building as where the Deity is.

Prabhupāda: That is the system. Temple is meant for retired men. Brahmacārī, sannyāsī, vānaprastha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then how we can let them live together, man and woman?

Prabhupāda: But if there is no alternative, what can be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. No, but there is alternative always. There are available rooms and apartments just adjoining the temples.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right, but he must be connected with temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That's the principle. Under no circumstance should anybody be independent.

Prabhupāda: Upendra is here?

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you have corrected that paste?

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: It has become soft?

Upendra: Yes, it's very soft and moist.

Prabhupāda: That's good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? It seems like your voice has become a little congested tonight. Are you feeling congested? Your voice seems a little...

Prabhupāda: Congested, my vice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Voice. In the nose. Congestion.

Prabhupāda: My nose? Not very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: So you can go.

Upendra: Prabhupādajī? I have one question since you are speaking about gṛhastha. If a brahmacārī decides to get married and then enters into married life, should he be encouraged to maintain that responsibility throughout his life?

Prabhupāda: No, no, unless he can maintain family, why should he marry?

Upendra: Well, I'm specifically questioning the fact that some... Of course, our movement is young, but so many women, their husbands leave them, and they are so young and they're left. So these young women I'm thinking may become a disturbance in the future to the movement, because how a woman can remain unmarried for so many years? Her husband has left her after a few years of marriage. Generally...

Prabhupāda: What we can do?

Upendra: I'm saying the emphasis of marriage responsibility, I don't know if it's preached that strongly. Generally it's preached that one should not...

Prabhupāda: No, if he marries, why he should not take responsibility of maintaining? Why he should marry if he has no power of maintaining?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, "power of maintaining," Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: He must maintain his wife, children nicely. Otherwise why he should marry?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He shouldn't expect the temple to maintain him.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, he might be thinking, "Well, I'm a pūjārī, so the temple should pay me money to maintain my family."

Prabhupāda: If we have got brahmacārī pūjārī, why should we maintain a gṛhastha? He is not only one pūjārī. We have got sannyāsī, brahmacārī. Why should we maintain a gṛhastha? And where is the means? After all, these things are to be adjusted. I can give you the ideas. The pūjārīs were given in Vṛndāvana the temple, and they made it a source of income. Just like the gosāis are doing. Their pūjā goes to hell.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: Mean these gṛhastha pūjārī. Gradually the pūjā will go to hell. They'll gradually glide down how to maintain family by showing the Deity. That is... The gosāis are doing. People have sentiment to give something to the Deity, and they will depend on that income. Bas. This is the position of these Vṛndāvana temple. What is the position of the Rādhā-Ramaṇa? Deterioration. It is not being properly done. They'll sell the property.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just like that Madan Mohan is thinking...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...to do. He says it's his property.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imagine that. Whew! Boy!

Prabhupāda: He is maintaining it for his sons', daughters' marriage. That is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After all, Tīrtha Mahārāja did that too.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "My son is the next in line." Whew.

Prabhupāda: The interest will go to the family, not to the Deity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not good.

Prabhupāda: Jīva Gosvāmī was brahmacārī. So he gave to a gṛhastha śiṣya to maintain Rādhā-Dāmodara. But what is the position now? Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī was also a brahmacārī. Everything depends on training and mentality. If the attention is diverted otherwise, then it is lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mādhavendra Purī, he gave his Deity. Now it's again... You know, who has Govardhana Deity. Vallabhācārya's line now worships.

Prabhupāda: They gave to the Vallabhācārya. But somehow they are maintaining the status quo.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Still very opulent. They do very elaborate. That Pushti Marg group, they do very elaborate Deity worship.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, they don't preach very vigorously, but at least their Deity worship...

Prabhupāda: That is also preaching. Arcanam. One of the... If they maintain the Deity worship gorgeously, that is also preaching.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the guiding principle should be that under no circumstance should anyone become lost.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the preaching? Alexander the Great? He was conquering, and as soon he went to conquer another place, the last place lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What happened?

Prabhupāda: Suppose I have conquered Bombay. Then I go to Karachi. In the meantime, Bombay is lost. That was being done, Alexander the Great. Means no proper management. Just like British Empire lost. They could not manage. So long they were managing well, it was going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too much expansion with not enough good management.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, we should not expand too quickly...

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...unless we have the proper management.

Prabhupāda: I am stressing, therefore, book selling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Not opening temples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Yes. This is the reason, one of the reasons. Hm. I don't think many devotees think in terms of that, but this is a very practical point, that selling books, once you make the sale, that's it. The book will act.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It will remain permanent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. It establishes itself as a Deity within a person's home.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The book.

Prabhupāda: Now I have given my program. You tackle, GBC men. At least, don't make me Alexander the Great in my lifetime. (laughs) They say, "You are great, great, great." But don't make it small while I am living.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or after. We will never make you that way.

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should never do that.

Prabhupāda: That's... That's my request.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've always said to us, at least whatever we have, maintain it.

Prabhupāda: And people are recognized I am great. Don't make me small. I'll not give you much trouble, but I am now invalid. What can I do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like even though you're invalid, it gives us more opportunity to serve you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. What can I do? (laughs) I have to give, give you that opportunity. I cannot do without it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that it is your mercy to us.

Prabhupāda: All right, go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you for all these instructions.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All glories to you. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                      July 19, 1977, Vrndavana                                                          504838

Prabhupāda: Mango is such a fruit, when it is not ripe, the green from that, up to the full ripe you can have.

Indian man (1): (Hindi conversation about mangoes) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...known as a religious man so that they can do business very exploitively. They were called by Guru Mahārāja, dharma-dhvaji.(?) Exploit (Bengali). Guru Mahārāja used to say dharma-dhvaji. "Daṇòavat class." Yes. He knows simply to offer daṇòavats. (laughs) Even so nice word: "Oh, he's a daṇòavat class." My Guru Mahārāja was very humorous. He was a Calcutta bhap.(?) Therefore he liked me. All others, they came from East Bengal. I was the only disciple, Calcutta. All others...

                                                                                                                                                                        504900

Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall do exactly like karmīs, but not for us. For Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Same thing we are doing. Therefore these Māyāvādī cannot understand. "Again form?" The example is just like a man like me, he's diseased, he's suffering. And when they say, "Mother Yaśodās' crying," "So again crying?" He does not know what is this crying. He thinks this crying and that crying the same. Therefore Māyāvādī. They want to make it zero--no crying. But we take it a great blessing, crying for Kṛṣṇa. But they cannot understand. They say, "Again crying? Then what is the benefit?" And this is māyā. You understand? This is the simple understanding of Māyāvāda. As soon as there is crying, they say, "Oh, it is māyā. No crying." Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Crying is a great transcendental pleasure. That they cannot understand, the poor fund of knowledge. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was simply crying. That is love. So that they do not understand, how crying can be pleasure. That is Māyāvāda. All right.

                                                                                                                                                                        504904

(break) Otherwise you just grow cotton and pluck. Problem solved. Get some lamb fur. It is not killing. They grow. Take the, what is called?

Bhakti-caru: Fleece. Wool. Wool? Fleece.

Prabhupāda: Wool, yes. You make some warm cloth. Very easy to live.

                                                                                                                                                                        505088

Prabhupāda: ...surrounded with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That was my great fortune. My father, mother, my relatives, my neighborhood... I had the opportunity mixing with... (break) Everywhere there was Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And they were all well-to-do, rich. This was the opportunity. Then gradually it developed. My father was a great Vaiṣṇava. He was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Our family Deity was Dāmodara. So hereditary we are Vaiṣṇavas, followers of Nitāi-Gaura.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it will be very nice if he does this book. And I'll find the right time sometimes... There will be opportunities when we can sit, and I can ask these questions and you can speak about them.

Prabhupāda: And I had the opportunity of associating with Rādhā-Govinda of the Mulliks from childhood. We were playing there. I was seeing the Deity... (break) ....and I questioned, "Here is God," like that. Atmosphere was all Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) He was a retired pleader. He was our neighbor, so nice Vaiṣṇava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was he that elderly man who would sleep sometimes when he was offering obeisances?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere... My maternal uncle. They were very... They were not rich. Formerly they were rich, then reduced, but so much devotee. My aunt's house, mother's elder sister, mean this was the society. So all Vaiṣṇavas. Not strictly following the Vaiṣṇava regulation, but still, they were Kṛṣṇa conscious. Even our maidservants, they were Kṛṣṇa conscious. They were inviting their guru. They were trying to satisfy them. Used to keep the guru for learning Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Such was the atmosphere, even maidservant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole society sounds Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: That was the atmosphere I had the opportunity to get.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That gentleman who brought you the oils yesterday? He brought another type. I wanted to bring it to you. He said especially during the wintertime it would be good for you. I'll just bring it. (break)

Prabhupāda: Very pet child.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pet child.

Prabhupāda: Whatever I shall want, they will supply. I was not a unwanted child for killing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You told the story that one time, because you were accustomed to liking purīs more than capātīs and your mother didn't supply you, you ran upstairs and refused to eat. Then your father came home and became very sorry. And he made your mother cook immediately purīs for you. Was that one of the sto...?

Prabhupāda: Hm. The name was kept Abhaya. Abhaya means "There is no fear of death of this child." In my maternal uncle's house, because I was born on the Nandotsava, they kept my name Nandadulal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nandadulal? Why were you called like that?

Prabhupāda: Because I was born in Nandotsava day.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did they used to call you Nandadulal?

Prabhupāda: Hm. In my maternal uncle's house I was called Nandadulal. Nandu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nandadulal. It's always very nice for the devotees that we celebrate your appearance day just following Janmāṣṭamī. Guru and Kṛṣṇa, both together. Actually, when this book is written properly, I know for a fact that it will actually attract people to join this movement, because I read once a biography of a very bogus person, but I was so much... People become so much impelled or attracted when they hear of a great personality and his activities. It makes them want to link up with such a person. So this book will have preaching effect, no doubt, and it will be filled with philosophy also.

Prabhupāda: How people were happy in those days. A small income, they were satisfied. Nowadays they simply want money. Nobody was unhappy even if he had very small income. He would adjust, and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things we have seen. I have seen that even the maidservant, what to speak of gentlemen. Where those days gone? And nobody was hungry. What is this nonsense civilization? Simply want of money and unsatisfied in every step. Especially in the Western countries they're becoming hippie. Why? The training is different.                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                        505116

Prabhupāda: Very encouraging letter. Very encouraging letter. I am very pleased. If our farm project is organized all over the world...

                                                                                                                                                                        505137

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's grace is always there, but we spoil Kṛṣṇa's grace. That is our business. "But Kṛṣṇa is giving us so much grace. Let us spoil it." That is our proposal. If there was no Kṛṣṇa's grace, how this institution would have come into existence? It was not possible, such a big institution, all by one man's endeavor, starting with forty rupees. Simply Kṛṣṇa's grace. So don't spoil that. This... This... That's not good. Then Kṛṣṇa will not help. Just like the father gives you money. If you squander that, He'll be very sorry. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so kind by giving me this opportunity." You should take things like that, not that "For nothing the father has given me so much money. Let me squander it." Have to work much for it. So anyway, Mr. Mani has said.

 

If your becomes ideal, you can teach them…We don't want any profit. We don't want any profit. You produce. You eat. You chant. Organize. Don't go outside.

Yaśomatīnandana: Don't go to the cities.

Prabhupāda: No. Be man of character. No illicit sex, no intoxication. Vaiṣṇava. Eat sufficiently, dress sufficiently. Live very comfortably. Whatever profit is there, it should be invested again for books. That's... Because we are investing money, our land... Therefore we are not profited. Beneficiary, you. It is a cooperative society. You produce your needs, live comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our only interest is that you are taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, working. Otherwise we don't want to exploit you. That is not... If there is no sufficient, you can... We help you manage it. You manage your own affair. We give you direction. Live happily, chant.

 

There is no distinction that you have to make in the city…You can make an ideal place…No. No, no. Don't make it a rush…No, you can prepare bricks. By brick... Make in such a way that we get local supplies…Bricks and tiles... Local potter can make that round tile. Make a brick that... And you have got bamboo. Take local supply as far as possible.

 

So my request... This, our Gītā philosophy, that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... There must be a class of men, ideal brāhmaṇas; a class of men, ideal kṣatriyas; class of men, ideal vaiśyas; and balance, śūdras, to help. That will make the human society happy. Cooperate. Just like body. There are different departments: head department, then arms department, then the belly department and the leg department. If they are all in good condition, the health is all right. And now, at the present moment, I am suffering because my belly department is not working nicely. So we cannot neglect any department. There must be all the departments, and they must be cooperative and healthy. So this movement is meant for that purpose.

 

We do not maintain any political view, what American government or Indian government... We want the whole people of the world, let them become human being. That is our movement. What is this? Simply killing business is going on. All governments should cooperate, pushing on this movement for humanity's sake.

 

And another point, that formerly the Britishers expanded empire. Now we have got better service. They... You expand the empire of consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is also the same view, but it is spiritual.

 

That is my concern, that such huge, huge establishment, if properly, regularly not managed, then again everything will be finished…I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted--my will, my executive(?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it.

 

I once heard that when some devotees wanted to buy a church in America you suggested that they should keep the altar and next put Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and give simultaneous lecture from Bible and from Bhagavad-gītā.

 

Nirvāṇa means sarva-dharmān parityajya. That is nirvāṇa. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityaj... Parityajya means giving up, and that is nirvāṇa. It requires expert presentation.

 

Of course, if I die, there is nothing to be ruined. You are all participants. So organize this farm project, simple living. Human life is meant for God realization. Try to help them. This is my...

 

No, let us make some community.(?)

 

No luxuries. Live very simple life and you save time for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is my desire. Don't waste time for bodily comforts. You have got this body. You have to eat something. You have to cover yourself. So produce your own food and produce your own cloth. Don't waste time for luxury, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is success of life. In this way organize as far as possible, either in Ceylon or in Czechoslovakia, wherever... Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be allured by the machine civilization.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: This is soul-killing civilization, this kind way of life, especially European countries. Anywhere you can inhabit it. It is not very difficult. A cottage; you can produce your own food anywhere. Am I right?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda. We will do it.

Prabhupāda: And money, spend for Kṛṣṇa--for Kṛṣṇa's palace, for Kṛṣṇa's temple, for Kṛṣṇa's worship, gorgeous, as gorgeously as... Not for false... This is the human civilization. And to organize this, varṇāśrama will help you to divide the society--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya--as there is division in the body. That will help. Don't waste human form of body for sense gratification. I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you ideas. You can do it. You are all intelligent. For Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra... So you do good to others. Not exploit others. Any human being who has been bestowed by this body has the capacity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them chance and make situation favorable. Is that clear?

 

United Nations under Caitanya Mahāprabhu's flag, do everywhere. It is possible. Always that is simply a false attempt. This is the real.

 

Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: (Bengali) You have fulfilled all, everything. (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Don't fight amongst yourselves. I have given the explanation, my will. Execute like that…And then everything will be. They'll guide. Then what there is.

 

What is the news?…So rice and mung…From corn you can make two things: ruṭi and bhāta…The villagers will like it very much. You smash it by that òheìki…So as much as it is powdered, make it ruṭi, and the hard portion make rice. The kṛṣāṇas will like, and it is very nutritious.

 

Vedic civilization is sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy." This is Vedic civilization. And this is the way, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.

 

How many things we have to do for preaching, for teaching. And live hundreds of years… So we have this Gurukula, good chance for teaching future preacher. Here is Yaśodā-nandana Mahārāja and others. You can do. Prepare, send. Prepare and send.

 

Viṣaya means material activity. One side is viṣaya chāṛiyā, se rase majiyā. One has to give up material activities and engage himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is one side. Another side, my Guru Mahārāja said, kṛṣṇa sevāi, yāìhā kahe anukūla, viṣaya boliyā tāìha haya bhula. Anything which is favorable for kṛṣṇa-sevā, if we give up that business as viṣaya, that is mistake.

 

Let there be struggle for existence for this purpose.

 

Brahmānanda: Actually we can make this whole world Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not difficult…Two things. Viṣaya chāṛiyā. Material motive should be given up, and everything should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's..., whatever favorable.

 

There is a Bengali word, "Enter like a needle and come out like a plow."

 

You bring some milk. That's...In milk. Milk will give some strength… With little milk mixed up…Milk.

 

Print books, and as I have given in my will, half, again print, and half spent for propaganda as you like. In this way go on.

 

I have given them the philosophy of "American money and Indian culture." Combined together, the face of the world will...Don't keep Indian culture airtight, and don't keep American money for sense gratification.

                      Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful…A man-made scheme--useless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted to introduce this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY FIVE

Room Conversation                      July 27, 1977 (and July 28, 1977), Vṛndāvana                                          505329

Prabhupāda: So everything all right?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you are...

Yaśomatīnandana: How are you feeling?

Prabhupāda: Not very good. Old man's disease. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura said, vṛddha kāla āola saba sukha bhāgala:(?) "When a man becomes old, all bodily comforts..." So it is not very good to live like an old man. It is troublesome. Body will be weakened, and all kinds of disease will be strong. Unless one is very strong in body, old age means suffering. So whatever Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma desire. Now it is up to you to maintain the Society very nicely. There is framework. There is idea. There is facility of everything. If you like, you can maintain work.

Yaśomatīnandana: They're having a very nice farm in Ahmedabad.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Yaśomatīnandana: One hundred acres. It's all very nice level land, and we have planted crops in 150 bighās. That is about...

Prabhupāda: So you give some... We are getting many other land. If your becomes ideal, you can teach them. People are coming for chanting?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. One gṛhastha is there, and the first week he went there, every night three hundred people were coming.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Yaśomatīnandana: And that was in the middle of the desert. Not desert, in the middle of like jungle, you know.

Prabhupāda: That I want.

Yaśomatīnandana: It's fifteen minutes away from the...

Prabhupāda: We don't want any profit. We don't want any profit. You produce. You eat. You chant. Organize. Don't go outside.

Yaśomatīnandana: Don't go to the cities.

Prabhupāda: No. Be man of character. No illicit sex, no intoxication. Vaiṣṇava. Eat sufficiently, dress sufficiently. Live very comfortably. Whatever profit is there, it should be invested again for books. That's... Because we are investing money, our land... Therefore we are not profited. Beneficiary, you. It is a cooperative society. You produce your needs, live comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our only interest is that you are taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, working. Otherwise we don't want to exploit you. That is not... If there is no sufficient, you can... We help you manage it. You manage your own affair. We give you direction. Live happily, chant. This should be... Will not they agree?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, they will very much agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: They already like our program of chanting and dancing.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Yaśomatīnandana: Very much they love it. People come from distant villages in groups.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Make them... In Gujarat it is very good. So you show an example that other camp will...

Yaśomatīnandana: This year we are taking some cash crops just to develop the farm.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Yaśomatīnandana: But then, once we have developed, then we can have rice and wheat and then distribute free prasāda to everyone. Because every inch of the land is cultivatable.

Prabhupāda: I have given so much for... Try to repay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants you to engage the local people in farming that land. Can you do that?

Yaśomatīnandana: Well, we are doing it as...

Prabhupāda: Gradually.

Yaśomatīnandana: Gradually.

Prabhupāda: Gradually.

                                                                                                                                                                        505548

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has given this facility.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That I thought can be the best project. And it's not far from the city.

Prabhupāda: It is not at all. It is within city. Eight miles is within. If you go to see some friend, you have to go eight miles.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And I told them they could buy scooters.

Prabhupāda: This farm...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You like the idea also...

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having a temple and a farm?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. There is no distinction that you have to make in the city. Nagarādi grāma. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's...

Yaśomatīnandana: And it is our experience that in the city hardly fifteen, twenty people come. But in the village, hundred fifty, two hundred come, even though the temple is...

Prabhupāda: You can make an ideal place. Very good.

Prabhupāda: Do it nicely. All facilities will come.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can make small cottages for the gṛhasthas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And then they'll be happy there.

Prabhupāda: Weekly visitors. Two-rooms cottage.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This will attract a lot of people.

Prabhupāda: And it will cost not more than fifteen thousand, two-room cottage.

Yaśomatīnandana: Now we will organize. Just now we had to rush everything.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Don't make it a rush.

Yaśomatīnandana: Because we had no facilities there.

Prabhupāda: No, you can prepare bricks. By brick... Make in such a way that we get local supplies.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said we can make the bricks also.

Prabhupāda: Bricks and tiles... Local potter can make that round tile. Make a brick that... And you have got bamboo. Take local supply as far as possible.

 

Meeting with Governor Of Tamil Nadu         July 31, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         505599

Prabhupāda: After all, the thing is that so long we have got this body, the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, you have to accept. This is the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So the human endeavor should be diverted how to stop this repetition of birth and death. That is the prime instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Kṛṣṇa says that,

janma karma ca me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti...

So our movement is on that platform, how to stop. Our whole Vedic culture is based on that process. When Viśvāmitra Mahārāja went to see Daśaratha about..., Daśaratha Mahārāja inquired from Viśvāmitra, aihistaṁ(?) yat punar-janma-jayāya: "You are great saintly person. You are trying to conquer over birth and death. Is your process going on nicely?" Viśvāmitra inquired Daśaratha Mahārāja about royal activities, government, prosperity, because he was kṣatriya and he was brāhmaṇa. So my request... This, our Gītā philosophy, that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... There must be a class of men, ideal brāhmaṇas; a class of men, ideal kṣatriyas; class of men, ideal vaiśyas; and balance, śūdras, to help. That will make the human society happy. Cooperate. Just like body. There are different departments: head department, then arms department, then the belly department and the leg department. If they are all in good condition, the health is all right. And now, at the present moment, I am suffering because my belly department is not working nicely. So we cannot neglect any department. There must be all the departments, and they must be cooperative and healthy. So this movement is meant for that purpose. It is the duty of government to give us protection. The counter movement is this Communistic movement. They want to drive away God conscious and we want to give God con..., completely opposite. Therefore they do not like it. This Māyāpura affair has been completely...

Governor: Distorted. I know it.

Prabhupāda: Distorted. Manufactured by the Communists.

Governor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So give us little protection. That is my request.

Governor: We'll do it, no doubt. I'm meeting the Prime Minister tomorrow, and we are going to discuss that matter. This is my daughter. She stays in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. She is married?

Governor: She is married. She has a husband. She was also an advocate in... This is husband. He's in the government of India agricultural department now.

Prabhupāda: Very good. We are very much interested in agriculture.

                                                                                                                                                                        505637

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Gītā should be accepted as it is. It should not be interpreted. Then there will be no benefit. And that has become... (Hindi) Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. That is Gītā. It is not meant for the loafer class. It is meant for the rājarṣis. Rājarṣayo viduḥ.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

So unless the high government officials, rājarṣis, they understand properly Bhagavad-gītā, we cannot derive any benefit from Gītā. It is not a question of interpretation.

 

Room Conversation                                    August 8, 1977, Vrndavana                                                         505764

Prabhupāda: You arrange. In this stage, don't tax me very much. Now I have authorized that will and everything. Follow that. You believe.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll discuss it with Tamāla.

Prabhupāda: As far as..., don't tax me. And printing, don't mind for price. Do it quickly and nicely.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is... As quickly as possible. No manuscript should be left vacant. That I want. Here and there I have more money invested. Now you don't...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We're not leaving anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are four Gujarati books now also coming out.

Prabhupāda: Print.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have already finalized.

Prabhupāda: Print.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Those Diwali cards, Śrīla Prabhupāda, which I showed you? They're selling very well.

Prabhupāda: That is business, earn money. That's all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's why I... Every day we are getting orders of more than thousand cards just in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now I've just written... I'm adding three more cards to the line to give people more variety. So...

Prabhupāda: Very good. So there you have got business. You have got money. Why you are miser? Earn money and spend money. That's all. I know this business. Earn money and spend money.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I try to make it...

Prabhupāda: Throughout my whole life I have done this. Earn money and spend money. I am not miser.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. When you wanted something...

Prabhupāda: See money. Earn money and see money. I don't follow this policy.

                                                                                                                                                                        505889

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukṛpā brought his Deities, little Gaura-Nitāi. He's wondering where will be a good place to keep them while he's here in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: The altar?

Gurukṛpā: No, that's not...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's difficult. He says...

Gurukṛpā: I'd like to bring them in daily for you to have darśana since you cannot go to the Deity.

Prabhupāda: No, I go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda goes every day. Difficult to put 'em in here?

Prabhupāda: But very carefully it should be done.(?)

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His Deities. You have a lot of jewels with you.

Gurukṛpā: I can't keep them on the altar.

Prabhupāda: If you like, you can keep in private room also.

Gurukṛpā: Yes, that is better.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They've arranged a very big room for the men, the biggest room here, so it's practically like a temple room in itself. It's where the gurukula used to be.

Gurukṛpā: It is better. We cook separate for Them.

Prabhupāda: Cook separate?

Gurukṛpā: Just for the Deity.

Prabhupāda: That is not very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a big thing here to cook. Prabhupāda just closed four kitchens down.

Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. No cooking. Tulasī and jala. You can offer little fruits, nuts, milk. No need of cooking. Takes much time. I want here no hired... But for the Deities and the devotees it is false.(?) Their association is bad. Make some arrangement so that you can avoid hired cooks unless it is absolutely necessary. The hired cook, they are most wretched people.

 

Room Conversation                                  August 10, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         505940

Prabhupāda: Hmm... Such nice color display, and there is no brain. The animal-killer civilization, Western country, has killed all their brain, good sense, good sentiment, everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gone.

Prabhupāda: Rotten.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a wonder how they take so many of Your Divine Grace's books.

Prabhupāda: No, they have got the capacity. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. It has to be awakened by process. They've lost everything, but it can be revived.

                                                                                                                                                                        505925

Prabhupāda: And wherever there are my established Deities, that is Vṛndāvana. Anywhere I have got temple, that is Vṛndāvana. So wherever the health will remain very nice...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There we should go. I'll talk further with them. Find out what the climate is like, everything. Make sure. Wherever we go, we should pretty much be sure it is just nice. Would you like to hear some reading now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm. You can sit down here. As far as possible, while reading Caitanya-caritāmṛta you should not sit down(?) because you are with Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Unless there is some inconvenience. So at least it should be on the same level. It is respect to Caitanya-caritāmṛta book. Sit down. So you can bring milk?

Upendra: Milk.

                                                                                                                                                                        505930

Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate: "By result." We are spreading Hindu culture throughout the whole world. He has to judge from this point of view, by the result. The persons, the people who are accustomed to kill cows, they are giving up meat-eating. Do you think it is ordinary thing? So he has... He must have good judgment before giving any adverse opinion. Engaged in horrible cow slaughter, they are becoming Vaiṣṇavas. Is it ordinary thing? Nārada did. What is the vyādha?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārada Muni?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He converted that hunter, Mṛgāri. He was killing, but then he would not trample even on one ant.

Prabhupāda: So that is being done now. So he has to judge from this intelligence. We do not maintain any political view, what American government or Indian government... We want the whole people of the world, let them become human being. That is our movement. What is this? Simply killing business is going on. All governments should cooperate, pushing on this movement for humanity's sake.

                                                                                                                                                                        505967

Prabhupāda: At least for few months I can continue. This is first business. Do it. And another point, that formerly the Britishers expanded empire. Now we have got better service. They... You expand the empire of consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is also the same view, but it is spiritual.

 

Room Conversation                                    August 17, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                       506181

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Live like gṛhastha, but don't leave. So where you are staying now?

Madhudviṣa: I just came from Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Where is your wife?

Madhudviṣa: She's there. I just had a baby boy.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Madhudviṣa: I just had a son.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Madhudviṣa: I called him Abhay. I hope that's all right.

Prabhupāda: So remain as gṛhastha and render your service. There is no harm. If one could not proceed, it doesn't matter. Failure is the pillar of success. Then try. Again you shall try. Where is Śrutakīrti? How are you?

Śrutakīrti: Very well, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Śrutakīrti is also gṛhastha. So jointly you can work and improve this movement. That is our ambition. Gṛhe bā banete thāke, hā gaurāìga bole òāke, narottama māge tāra saìga. "Either he remains at home or as a sannyāsī, if he is devotee of Lord Gaurāìga, I want his association." That is Narottama Öhākura's... Gṛhe bā banete thāke, hā gaurāìga bole òāke, narottama māge tāra saìga. So follow the principles, and whichever position is suitable. Don't be carried away by the waves of māyā. Capture Caitanya Mahāprabhu and you'll be saved. Is that all right? Don't leave us. You are quite... At least you made advance. You are one of the important devotees. So don't lose that position now. Manage in the position you want to remain. Now Gaurasundara has also come. So I'm glad to see that you are... Your bunch of hair is long. Yes. Cut it. So give them place to stay nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam. And remain here for some time. Of course, according to my horoscope, these days are my last days. But if Kṛṣṇa saves, that is a different thing. They have calculated eighty-two years and two days?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty-one years, five months, and twenty-eight days.

Prabhupāda: That is the..., according to calculation of my horoscope. Eighty-one years will be completed, and eighty-second year will begin. It doesn't matter I leave this body. Even in death I'll live. One year before or one year after... Now as far as possible, I have trained you. Try to follow the principles. And go ahead. Don't be set back by māyā's tricks. Go ahead, forward, at any cost. Bhaktivinoda Öhākura said... So many obstacles are coming. Māyā is strong. And still, we are going forward. That's all right.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

 

Room Conversation                                    October 2, 1977, Vrndavana                                                        506351

Prabhupāda: There is fresh milk? Half water, half milk.

                                                                                                                                                                        506397

Prabhupāda: That is my concern, that such huge, huge establishment, if properly, regularly not managed, then again everything will be finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that that's going to happen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're too much indebted to you to allow what you have established to become spoiled.

Prabhupāda: Please see to that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: In this condition it is impossible for me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you should have to do is just think about Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kindly give me that chance.

Brahmānanda: (to a devotee:) "Kindly give me that chance."

Prabhupāda: In this condition, even I cannot move my body on the bed. Only chance you should give me--let me die little peacefully, without any anxiety. I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted--my will, my executive(?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it. Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we do not want any disaster to happen. Our only business as your sons and servants is to maintain what you have established. Even if we don't increase it, if we just maintain it...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That'll be... You've done so much. If it's even maintained, it will be a great credit. We shall be proud if people will say that "These young men are fit sons of their Guru Mahārāja." That would be our great pride if people will say that of us, that "They were worthy sons of their Guru Mahārāja."

                                                                                                                                                                        506447

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Sharma. Oh, yes. Where is he? He's here. Did that milk give you any mucus, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good.

Prabhupāda: It is very, very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really fresh.

Prabhupāda: If I drink this milk twice, morning and evening, I think I can avoid any food.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can what?

Prabhupāda: Avoid any food.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You don't like fruit juice?

Prabhupāda:I mean to say,I can drink in the meantime,but by simply drinking this milk,I can live healthy.I think so.

 

Room Conversation                                   October 3, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                         506610

Haṁsadūta: I once heard that when some devotees wanted to buy a church in America you suggested that they should keep the altar and next put Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and give simultaneous lecture from Bible and from Bhagavad-gītā. I was thinking that in Shree Lanka, if it would be all right to have a deity of Lord Buddha and speak simultaneously on the Dharmapatha(?) and also Bhagavad-gītā, showing how Bhagavad-gītā is beyond the stage of nirvāṇa. Is that a good idea, Prabhupāda, or not?

Prabhupāda: Good idea, provided you can present properly.

Haṁsadūta: Because Buddhists come and they ask, "If Lord Buddha was an incarnation of Viṣṇu, then why he did not teach about God? Why did he not teach about the soul?" So I always explain to them it's like teachings ABC's and teaching advanced literature. He was teaching ABC. That was required. He did not go into higher subject matter.

Prabhupāda: First of all the Buddha wanted to make them sinless, "Don't kill." And you are not following that even. His business was to stop sinful life. In sinful life one cannot understand God as He is.

Haṁsadūta: Once Lord Buddha, they say, was sitting under a bo tree, and a leaf fell down. He picked it up and he said, "The knowledge I am giving you is like this leaf compared to the tree of knowledge." So I always quote that. They appreciate that, "Oh, yes," that beyond nirvāṇa there is brahma-nirvāṇa, and beyond that there is Paramātmā, and above that there is Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means sarva-dharmān parityajya. That is nirvāṇa. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityaj... Parityajya means giving up, and that is nirvāṇa. It requires expert presentation.

 

Room Conversation(2)                                October 6, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                       506851

Prabhupāda: Of course, if I die, there is nothing to be ruined. You are all participants. So organize this farm project, simple living. Human life is meant for God realization. Try to help them. This is my...

Paramānanda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

 

Room Conversation                                   October 8, 1977, Vrndavana                                                         507384

Prabhupāda: No, let us make some community.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Show the world how to live ideally, go back to Godhead. Raise your own food, make your own clothes, make your own buildings, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. They are working so hard, they don't have nice home, they don't have nice clothing, they don't have nice food, and they have no love for Kṛṣṇa. We have to show how to do everything very nicely. And you've given... We just have to understand what you've given us, Prabhupāda, your teachings.                          Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Room Conversation(2)                                 October 8, 1977, Vrndavan                                                        507202

 

Prabhupāda: No luxuries. Live very simple life and you save time for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is my desire. Don't waste time for bodily comforts. You have got this body. You have to eat something. You have to cover yourself. So produce your own food and produce your own cloth. Don't waste time for luxury, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is success of life. In this way organize as far as possible, either in Ceylon or in Czechoslovakia, wherever... Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be allured by the machine civilization.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: This is soul-killing civilization, this kind way of life, especially European countries. Anywhere you can inhabit it. It is not very difficult. A cottage; you can produce your own food anywhere. Am I right?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda. We will do it.

Prabhupāda: And money, spend for Kṛṣṇa--for Kṛṣṇa's palace, for Kṛṣṇa's temple, for Kṛṣṇa's worship, gorgeous, as gorgeously as... Not for false... This is the human civilization. And to organize this, varṇāśrama will help you to divide the society--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya--as there is division in the body. That will help. Don't waste human form of body for sense gratification. I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you ideas. You can do it. You are all intelligent. For Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra... So you do good to others. Not exploit others. Any human being who has been bestowed by this body has the capacity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them chance and make situation favorable. Is that clear?

Hamsaduta: Yes, it’s clear, Prabhupada. You have made everything very clear.

                                                                                                                                                                        507226

Prabhupāda: Nava-yogendra, organize Africa and South Africa. They are also gradually taking. So who is going there?

Brahmānanda: Jayatīrtha.

Prabhupāda: And Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa?

Brahmānanda: No, not Toṣaṇa. In South Africa?

Prabhupāda: Who took me to South Africa?

Brahmānanda: Tulasī dāsa.

Prabhupāda: No, before that, when I went.

Brahmānanda: Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Try to bring him back. He is very competent. So jointly organize South Africa, both Europeans, Americans, Africans. Tulasī dāsa is very competent also. United Nations under Caitanya Mahāprabhu's flag, do everywhere. It is possible. Always that is simply a false attempt. This is the real.

Brahmānanda: You said that when you first came to New York. You went to the United Nations. The very first day I came to the kīrtana there in New York. The next day you went for that peace vigil outside the United Nations, and you were chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and saying that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only method for making United Nations.

Prabhupāda: That is fact. Āśraya laïā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra sama māre aphala.(?) If we try under the protection of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, things will be successful. Others, they'll simply waste time and be disappointed and change his body and suffer. Today is Ekādaśī?

                                                                                                                                                                        507259

Okay. (break) You want to see that Kṛṣṇa dāsa from Rādhā-kuṇòa? The pāṇòā. The man who takes people around. Not Niṣkiïcana Bābājī from Māyāpura.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one, the one who always laughs a lot?

Prabhupāda: Who comes to me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Your Godbrother. Oh, you want to see him. Okay. I'll make sure that he comes. Śrīla Prabhupāda? You know how you were asking me about what those dates were? So I told you that today and tomorrow is difficult days. Then the day after that is not a difficult day, and it's also Govardhana-pūjā. Then the day after that becomes difficult again for one day. But the day in between, Govardhana-pūjā, is not considered to be a difficult day. (some discussion with Hari-śauri) It's the wrong date, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's not Govardhana-pūjā . Our information was wrong. So we'll get Kṛṣṇa dāsa? Okay. (kīrtana starts) Śrīla Prabhupāda, have you been thinking about parikrama? (aside:) Let him chant.

Hari-śauri: Softly.

Prabhupāda: Do you think in this stage is it possible?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it would be difficult. Better that we go parikram-ing around our temple, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandira. That's a little easier. Don't you think that's better? If you get a little stronger, then it may be possible. That will depend on Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa dāsa, we should bring him here. Anyone else you want to see? Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja? Yes. We went to see him just to inquire about the necessary ceremony, and he gave us instruction. I sent Bhakti-caru Mahārāja and Bhakti-prema Mahārāja, and they wrote down everything. But Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja was very concerned. He said he's going to try to come to see you tomorrow. That's all right, isn't it? So Kṛṣṇa dāsa can be called for. Anytime? Okay. He stays at Rādhā-kuṇòa? We'll inquire... Does he stay at the Gauòīya Maṭha here?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He does. In Vṛndāvana. Okay.

Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja comes; then everything is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if I call Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja, is there any need for Kṛṣṇa dāsa to come?

Prabhupāda: He can arrange.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja. Yes, actually he wanted to do that. He gave us instructions, but he also wanted to take part. So better I call Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja than Kṛṣṇa dāsa? Okay. I'll send a car for him tomorrow morning. He was saying he was thinking to come tomorrow, so I'll send a car and say "Prabhupāda requests if it's convenient that you can come this morning." That'll be all right? Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                        507294

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to see a paṇòitajī from there. So can you get that paṇòitajī? You want to see him tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) And Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja, he'll come tomorrow?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll come when we... Tonight could he come? You think that's too late?

Bhakti-caru: I think he'll come, if we go and pick him up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we pick him up, he might come tonight.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we go just now with the car, Bhakti-caru goes just now with the car, he may come tonight, Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Go on, kīrtana. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Shall we put a little fan on? Little bit? (break)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation with Godbrothers, followed by kīrtana, Śrī Rūpa Maïjarī Pada) Where is Tamāla?

Hari-śauri: Get Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He's just coming, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's in the other room.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali conversation)

Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: You have consulted with Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This morning Bhakti-caru Swami, Bhakti-prema Swami and Śrīdhara Swami went to see him, and Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja described the ceremony for the departure of a Vaiṣṇava, great Vaiṣṇava soul.

Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...entrance right side?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The entrance on the left side entering... Looking towards the Deity, it's the left side. In other words, when you come into the temple it's on left side. There's a big open area. (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's on the same side as the vyāsāsana.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Faces east.

Prabhupāda: Puṣpa, Māyāpure, flower.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Māyāpura.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: You should call me, and I will come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He described the entire ceremony in detail, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So he knows. When you are ready(?), let him have it. (Bengali)

Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: (Bengali) You have fulfilled all, everything. (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Don't fight amongst yourselves. I have given the explanation, my will. Execute like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: And then everything will be. They'll guide. Then what there is. (Bengali) Ekādaśī?

Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Ekādaśī.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Haṁsadūta chants) (end)

 

Room Conversation                                     October 9, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       507438

Prabhupāda: Where is Tejiyas?

Hari-śauri: Right here, at the bed, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are coming from Hyderabad?

Tejiyas: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What is the news?

Tejiyas: We're harvesting the mung and the rice.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Harvesting the mung and rice.

Tejiyas: They've got some new cows also. One cow is giving twenty liters of milk.

Prabhupāda: So rice and mung.

Tejiyas: Also corn, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Corn.

Prabhupāda: From corn you can make two things: ruṭi and bhāta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. From corn you can make two things: ruṭi, cāpāṭis, and bhāta, or like rice.

Prabhupāda: The villagers will like it very much. You smash it by that òheìki. You know that machine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The ladies jump on it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So as much as it is powdered, make it ruṭi, and the hard portion make rice. The kṛṣāṇas will like, and it is very nutritious.

                                                                                                                                                                        507566

Prabhupāda: Vedic civilization is sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy." This is Vedic civilization. And this is the way, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The same house?

                                                                                                                                                                        507609

Prabhupāda: That will be our excellent achievement. This is our mission, the... Whatever we have got, teach others. In this spread. The whole world is chanting. Did you recite the verses in Fiji?

Yaśodā-nandana: Yes. In Fiji we recited all those verses, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: They appreciated?

Yaśodā-nandana: Yes. People liked it very much. They had never heard before.

Prabhupāda: Very good. The Gurukula is meant for this purpose. Teach them and let them go around the world to teach. Taroho e bhava-sindhu. Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saìge, taroho e bhava-sindhu re. This is our mission. Éśopaniṣad?

Yaśodā-nandana: Éśopaniṣad? Recite?

Brahmānanda: Sing it, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Jijīviṣo. What is that verse? Jijīviṣo?

Gurukṛpā:

kurvann eveha karmāṇi

jijīviṣec chataṁ samāḥ

evaṁ tvayi nānyatheto 'sti

na karma lipyate nare

Prabhupāda: How many things we have to do for preaching, for teaching. And live hundreds of years. That is jijīviṣo śataṁ yaḥ?

Yaśodā-nandana: Jijīviṣec chataṁ samāḥ.

Prabhupāda: We are receiving very good report from Iran.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The royal family is taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I think even your Guru Mahārāja would have been surprised to hear that.

Prabhupāda: Everyone, if one is actually gentleman. So we have this Gurukula, good chance for teaching future preacher. Here is Yaśodā-nandana Mahārāja and others. You can do. Prepare, send. Prepare and send.

Brahmānanda: "Prepare and send," Prabhupāda said. Prepare them and send them.

Prabhupāda: How much tremendous work we have to do.

Brahmānanda: The whole world, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: It's unlimited.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Unlimited.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you have to lead us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am prepared, provided Kṛṣṇa allows me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today you said Kṛṣṇa is giving you the choice.

Hari-śauri: In the Bhāgavatam you mentioned that Nārada Muni has the free will to travel anywhere within the universe--spiritual or material. So you must also have the same ability.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today we were discussing how nice a devotee you are, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are so faithful servant and devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa that He allows you to do whatever you want, because He knows that you'll do everything for Him.

Prabhupāda: Viṣaya means material activity. One side is viṣaya chāṛiyā, se rase majiyā. One has to give up material activities and engage himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is one side. Another side, my Guru Mahārāja said, kṛṣṇa sevāi, yāìhā kahe anukūla, viṣaya boliyā tāìha haya bhula. Anything which is favorable for kṛṣṇa-sevā, if we give up that business as viṣaya, that is mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So your life, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the most favorable thing in this whole world for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You should not give it up.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, Kṛṣṇa has given us so many innocent boys. Yaśodā-nandana Mahārāja, teach them...

Yaśodā-nandana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: ...like you so far as chanting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are also your innocent boys, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Let there be struggle for existence for this purpose.

Brahmānanda: Let there be struggle for existence for this purpose. For spreading the movement?

Prabhupāda: What is the time?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Time is 9:15.

Prabhupāda: Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau.

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I was thinking that the religion of Jesus Christ has spread all over the world, and you are much greater than Jesus Christ. Your teachings are far, far greater, and your power is far, far greater. So if you remain here more, more years, then certainly this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the entire world.

Prabhupāda: I am willing.

Brahmānanda: Actually we can make this whole world Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not difficult.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You say that you still want to see the world overflooded with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You said you wanted to see that happen.

Prabhupāda: We can do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As you instruct us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we will carry out your orders exactly.

Prabhupāda: Two things. Viṣaya chāṛiyā. Material motive should be given up, and everything should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's..., whatever favorable. Then it will... (break) ... Åṣi is doing nice. Who is that Mahārāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parivrājakācārya Swami.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. Good combination.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's been there now, Parivrājakācārya Swami, he's been there now for, I think, two or three years now. He's worked pretty faithfully there. He tricks them. In the guise of teaching a little haṭha-yoga, then he teaches bhakti.

Prabhupāda: That is preaching.

Brahmānanda: You also tricked us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you came to New York. You were just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and speaking on Bhagavad-gītā, and we came and we listened, and then you took everything. You took our lives, took all of our money... (devotees chuckle) We left our families.

Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali word, "Enter like a needle and come out like a plow." (laughter)

Hari-śauri: "Enter like a needle and come out like a plow."

Prabhupāda: If you say in the beginning, "I am a plow," he'll not allow you to enter. Say "I am needle." Let us try to serve Kṛṣṇa. He'll give all intelligence. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Now go on. Take rest.

 

Room Conversation                                   October 10, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       507797

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's Upendra Prabhu. He's cleaning up your room for you. He's cleaning the floor nicely. He put fresh flowers. Somehow you have to be able to eat something, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's the... At least in my mind it's perplexing question which I don't know the answer to. In all these events I have to face the reality that I'm simply a completely bewildered fool. I know you have to... If you're to get better, you have to be able to eat something. I don't know what to suggest, though.

Prabhupāda: You bring some milk. That's...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to drink some milk? (to Upendra) You make just now. You want any water mixed with it? Half-half? (to Upendra) Milk half-half with water. (some whispering discussion with Upendra) Upendra is thinking that milk will cause the coughing.

Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think that just as you gradually decreased your eating and drinking and became very weak, so you should increase gradually, very carefully. Yesterday you drank barley water and grape juice, and you didn't come down with a cough. So if you increase just a little barley water and mung water, then after a few days thin milk, maybe some Complan, and then gradually increase the resistance...

Prabhupāda: So instead of water, barley water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take barley water now?

Prabhupāda: In milk. Milk will give some strength.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk will give some strength, Prabhupāda says. He's going to make now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Milk or...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Complan?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have... Jayatīrtha brought us new boxes of Complan from England. You have fresh supply now. You want Complan instead of milk?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, whatever you take, we don't want you to cough. That's a fact. That's too disturbing. So... (break) Why not take barley water instead of milk? I mean is milk better than barley water?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So yesterday you took barley water and you didn't get mucus. So why not stick with that for a little while and get some more strength? See, if you get mucus now, because you don't have much strength, it will be difficult for you to cough. First of all, better to get more strength. Then we can take up drinking some things like milk which might cause a little mucus, but then you'd have the strength to cough. Now we should not take any risk. Is that a fact? At least that's how I'm thinking. It may be better you drink some barley water. Do you mind drinking it?

Prabhupāda: With little milk mixed up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little Complan or milk?

Prabhupāda: Milk.

 

Room Conversation                                    October 12, 1977, Vrndavana                                                      508747

Prabhupāda: So take care of the bones as long as possible. Real life is here. Always remember that. And material world means there are simply all protecting bones and flesh together. They have no idea what they are.(?) Bones and flesh... Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Apareyam. It is useless. Not useless--inferior. Real? That jīva-bhūta, which is sustaining. Thank you very much. Print books, and as I have given in my will, half, again print, and half spent for propaganda as you like. In this way go on.

 

Room Conversation                                   October 13, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       509068

Prabhupāda: I have given them the philosophy of "American money and Indian culture." Combined together, the face of the world will...

Hari-śauri: Change.

Prabhupāda: Don't keep Indian culture airtight, and don't keep American money for sense gratification. Use it for Kṛṣṇa. So they are doing that. And Kṛṣṇa is giving them intelligence. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam.

                                                                                                                                                                        509244

Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra, mind is meant for speculation. It does not give us any definite knowledge. My mind is working in one way; your mind is working another way. There is no conclu... Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. This is the result of mental speculation. And Gītā also says that manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. This spiritual spark, being bound up by the mind and the senses, is struggling hard on the material nature. And he's simply struggling. No fixed up condition. Everyone will say, "I think this is right." What is right, he does not know. That is struggle. Is it not?

 

Room Conversation                                  October 14, 1977, Vrndavana                                                        509685

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not want liberation. We want to serve the purpose of the Gosvāmīs, in association with pure devotees. To stop birth and death is not our purpose. Tāìdera

                                                                                                                                                                        509693

Prabhupāda: Tomorrow shall I take the risk of taking little milk?

 

Room Conversation                                  October 15, 1977, Vrndavana                                                        510003

Prabhupāda: Very carefully deal, and as far as possible, don't keep money in the bank. Invest in books and expansion. That is my request. If you keep money, there will be so much trouble.

                                                                                                                                                                        510100

Prabhupāda: So why stock lacking? Why this mismanagement? There is no question of shortage of stock. I give you open order. Print more than necessity. If you do not print, what shall I do?

 

Room Conversation(2)                              October 18, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       510750

Prabhupāda: ...thakur re.(?) I want association of Vaiṣṇava. You are all pure Vaiṣṇavas. You have sacrificed everything, material comforts, for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Vaiṣṇava. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. You have no other desire. You Europeans, Americans, you are born amongst material desires. And when you become free from material desires... Therefore you are all Vaiṣṇava, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. So you are so merciful.

                                                                                                                                                                        510772

Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven't got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.

Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme--useless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That I am thinking, that such a big society, the aims and object may be dismantled. I am thinking from that vision.

 

"...after you, who will take the leadership?" And "Everyone will take, all my disciples. If you want, you can take also. (laughter) But if you follow. They are prepared to sacrifice everything, so they'll take the leadership. I may, one, go away, but there will be hundreds, and they'll preach. If you want, you can also become a leader. We have no such thing, that 'Here is leader.' Anyone who follows the previous leadership, he's a leader. 'Indian,' we have no such distinction, 'Indian,' 'European.' "

 

…Everyone, all my disciples, they are leaders. As purely as they follow, they become leader. If you want to follow, you can become a leader…Leader means one who has become first-class disciple. He is leader. Evaṁ paramparā-prāpta... One who is perfectly following...

 

Now we have to open temple in every village…Then spend money…Don't keep money. Spend it. The karmīs, they spend for sense gratification. You spend for Kṛṣṇa.

 

I will take milk…. I want little milk from them, that's all… I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be.

 

No, no, bus will be not good. Bullock cart…Bullock, you get the cow dung…Underneath the tree it is not cold… But I think I shall be cured.

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So where will we go tomorrow if we go?

Prabhupāda: Govardhana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhana.

 

…Yes. And we shall make our cooking there and...Dig the ground and make our foodstuff. Very good picnic… So let us make experiment. Don't hesitate.

 

Yes, other devotees can go. I cannot go… Bābājī Mahārāja? (Bengali) So you will take bath in Rādhā-kuṇòa on my behalf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very good picnic …

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY SIX (FINAL CONVERSATIONS)

Room Conversation                                   October 21, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       511597

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You'll have to sit up. Is that all right? (break) These are very favorite preparations. Today is Rāma Vijaya Utsava. Also the appearance day of Śrī Madhvācārya. So you should have a feast today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (laughter) So maybe Pisimā should do some cooking to celebrate this day. It is a very big... Dr. Ghosh told me that amongst the Bengali community...

Prabhupāda: No, all over India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also Durgā-pūjā is today.

Prabhupāda: Vijayotsava. Today Rāmacandra conquered over Rāvaṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So to celebrate that, shouldn't Pisimā do some cooking?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Lugdu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you'll taste a little of each thing?

Prabhupāda: Hm. I'll take. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...today, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Maybe the medicines are having some good effect. (break) Today is Vijayotsava.

Pisimā: (Bengali)

Bhavānanda: Utsava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāma Vijayotsava.

Nava-yogendra: Aj rāma vijaya utsava hai.

Prabhupāda: Hard of hearing. (laughter)

Bhavānanda: (loudly) Ajke rāma vijaya utsava. Aneka prasādam.

Pisimā: Aneka prasādam.

Bhavānanda: Āpne aneka prasādam korilun. (Bengali) Lugdu. Lugdu.

Pisimā: Lāòu.

Bhavānanda: Lugdu.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) lugdu.

Nava-yogendra: Lugdu, lugdu.

Pisimā: Lugdu.

Nava-yogendra: Bundi lāòu.

Bhavānanda: Luci?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Pisimā: Luci.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. She will cook a feast to celebrate the day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and you have to also take part. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...such a way he'll call laughing. Gravity should be maintained. And laughing means taking things trifling. That is not allowed. This is the etiquette. That is what we are teaching. You are simple, but this is the etiquette. Understand me right or not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We understand very well. We apologize that we were taking too lightly.

 

Room Conversation(2)                               October 21, 1977, Vrndavana                                                      511292

Prabhupāda: There is... And who is making khol?

Bharadvāja: Soul?

Prabhupāda: Khol, khol.

Bharadvāja: Oh, khol. Éśāna. Éśāna dāsa.

Prabhupāda: He's doing nice?

Bharadvāja: Yes. They are producing many, and they are very, very strong.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bharadvāja: They are very strong, and they sound good.

Śatadhanya: They say that you can throw them on the floor and they will not break.

Bharadvāja: Made for Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: How many khols he has already prepared?

Bharadvāja: I don't know exactly, but I think it was close to about two hundred when I left.

Prabhupāda: Where he is making?

Bharadvāja: Well, they are having most of the part done outside by outside people, professionals, and Éśāna is assembling, and he's working very hard.

Prabhupāda: It is plastic?

Bharadvāja: Yes, Completely, everything. And it can be tuned also on the spot. There is a key, and with this key you can tune it up. The heads never break, but if they happen to break they can be immediately replaced within... They can get extra heads and it takes about two minutes to change, to put a new head on.

Prabhupāda: Hm!

Bharadvāja: So Éśāna has worked very hard to fulfill your order, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Now he's successful.

Bharadvāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where is his wife?

Bharadvāja: She is in New York with the child. She is working with Yogeśvara there on children's books.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bharadvāja: Éśāna has taken to vānaprastha. He is living in New Dvārakā, but he's living in a shack, in a very simple room, and living just like in Vṛndāvana. He has given up comforts.

 

Room Conversation                                   October 26, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       512389

Prabhupāda: Hm. Go on chanting. (break) ...of Rāmānuja-sampradāya,

(Haṁsadūta leading loud kīrtana in background)

Prabhupāda: So this makara-dhvaja, I think not acting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not acting? How can you tell so soon?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can you tell so soon? How are you able to tell so soon after taking? Wouldn't it take a few days to feel the results?

Prabhupāda: Things are deteriorating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can feel that? You can feel things deteriorated? In what respect, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Weakness.

Prabhupāda: No, parikrama I shall go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You expected to immediately get some result by taking this makara-dhvaja?

Prabhupāda: I am already puzzled? Mixed-up.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you're puzzled, Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said you're puzzled?

Prabhupāda: Ātreya Åṣi?

Ātreya Åṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I am puzzled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you continue to desire to live, Śrīla Prabhupāda... If you continue to desire to live, then Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire.

Prabhupāda: In this condition I do not wish to live.

Païca-draviòa: If the devotees are staying away, it is not because you are poisonous. It is because we are poisonous. I know due to my sinful habits I am so poisonous that when I'm in your presence I feel so contaminated and unworthy of being in the sight of such a person as yourself that I feel that I should be in some corner hiding like some... I am so impure that I cannot stand in front of you. It is not because I feel that you are poisonous, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I am poisonous.

Ātreya Åṣi: That's very true, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Païca-draviòa: You are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and your whole life is simply dedicated to the propagation of Kṛṣṇa's teachings all over the world, whereas my whole life is simply dedicated to sense gratification. So therefore, when I come in front of a person such as yourself, I feel ashamed.

Bhavānanda: It is true, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if you lose your desire to remain here, then no medicine can be effective. But if you desire to remain, then the medicine can become effective.

Prabhupāda: No, in this way to remain--not desirable. Every day, crisis.

Bhavānanda: That is the crisis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the puzzlement. (break)

Bhavānanda: ...we have to appraise that if Your Divine Grace leaves us, what will be the result both to ISKCON society, to each of you disciples individually, and to the entire planet.

Prabhupāda: That I am thinking, that such a big society, the aims and object may be dismantled. I am thinking from that vision.

 

Room Conversation(2)                              October 30, 1977, Vrndavana                                                       513995

Prabhupāda: Yes. He should not have come in touch, in the material qualities. And in Prema-vivarta it is said,

kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha haïā bhoga vāïchā kare

nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

So as soon as he forgets Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy life independently, that is guṇa-saìga and falls down. It is falldown, this guṇa-saìga. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuìkte... What is that verse?

Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuìkte tad-guṇān. You? find out?

Śatadhanya:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi

bhuìkte prakṛti-jān guṇān

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saìgo 'sya

sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. So in that sense, matter is also life, but covered.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattvam...

Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy. It is also energy. As energy, they are one. But have... They have differentiated in different... Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The... Except spirit, other things are superficial, but they are there. Prakṛti-stha. So his fault is to come in touch with the matter. Just like we are cleansing. The stool is also part of the body, but we are cleaning. Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Stool is not required.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (pause) Yes, the example of the flower bud is nice. I can understand it better now.

Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. By association of pāpa-puṇya, he suffers or enjoys. When the enjoyment is finished, he again falls down with vṛṣṭi and... Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Then, from water, again grows. Very troublesome business.

ei rūpe brahmāṇòa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

(Bengali) (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is like this, that he thinks both are the same?

Prabhupāda: He thinks, but it... It is not the fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One is covered consciousness, matter. So it is inferior.

Prabhupāda: The covering matter is inferior.

Śatadhanya: How the Māyāvādī thinks that he can..., that the material energy is false when at every step he's baffled by the material energy?

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs, but he does not take. He wants to remain in māyā and at the same time claim that he is liberated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, modern science tries to compromise... I'm sorry: Māyāvādīs try to compromise with modern science.

Prabhupāda: There is no other way. They cannot make a solution, so they must try to make a compromise.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like when we say that spiritual atom or ātmā is innumerable in numbers, they immediately come up.

Prabhupāda: Sa anantyāya kalpate. As there are many molecules in the sunshine, similarly--yasya prabhā--by..., in the effulgence of God there are so many molecules, or spiritual spark.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, even it makes stronger now, that within the atom, if there is a jīva or life which is not developed, so it will be many more, innumerable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṇòāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. That is the difficulty. They do not want to take śāstra as it is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to interpret according to their whims.

Śatadhanya: And they want to adjust it according to the time.

Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. (break) ...superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That was confirmed when He was talking like that. Just like Carl Jung... He's a psychologist. He says that matter is a concept, some sort of imagination that one has in his mind, something like that idea that these Māyāvādīs... They think this is not real.

Prabhupāda: It is not real in this sense: because the spirit is there, therefore it is there. Because there is consciousness, there is ignorance, covering. And if you stop this ignorance, then consciousness is there, pure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the consciousness is undeveloped, looks like dead body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a living body, in a living cell, actually it is made up of innumerable lives. But among these innumerable lives, the jīva, who is...

Prabhupāda: He's a particular individual. In the body... Just like you are in this room. When you leave this room, the room becomes vacant, but there are innumerable other jīvas.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But different consciousness. So among these innumerable lives making this whole living body, there is one which is highly...

Prabhupāda: Particular.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Conscious.

Śatadhanya: Who permeates that body.

Prabhupāda: And we can experience. There are so many germs within the body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when that most conscious jīva leaves the body, still, the body is made up of those innumerable lives, but whose consciousness developed, that we call a dead matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not dead matter. They come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. You cannot say that the life-giving substance is gone. It is there. (break) ...

 

Room Conversation                                  November 2, 1977, Vrndavana                                                      515273

Prabhupāda: They were also hankering. And as soon as they got it, they got life.

Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. You can go. They will talk with me something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to go outside, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi)

Śrī Bajaj: (Hindi) Excuse me. We are just talking alone with him. (break)

Prabhupāda: "...after you, who will take the leadership?" And "Everyone will take, all my disciples. If you want, you can take also. (laughter) But if you follow. They are prepared to sacrifice everything, so they'll take the leadership. I may, one, go away, but there will be hundreds, and they'll preach. If you want, you can also become a leader. We have no such thing, that 'Here is leader.' Anyone who follows the previous leadership, he's a leader. 'Indian,' we have no such distinction, 'Indian,' 'European.' "

Brahmānanda: They wanted an Indian to be the leader?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) "Everyone, all my disciples, they are leaders. As purely as they follow, they become leader. If you want to follow, you can become a leader. You are Indian. But you don't want." I told them that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they probably wanted to propose somebody who would take over our movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Leaders. All nonsense. Leader means one who has become first-class disciple. He is leader. Evaṁ paramparā-prāpta... One who is perfectly following... Our instruction is āra nā kariha mane āśā. You know this? What is that? Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā. Who is leader? A leader, to become leader, is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of a bona fide guru.

                                                                                                                                                                        515304

Prabhupāda: Hm. Very carefully deal with them. They are trying to come into the institution to grasp the power gradually.

                                                                                                                                                                        515311

Prabhupāda: Very carefully deal with them. They want to enter into our management.

 

Room Conversation                                               November 3, 1977, Vrndavana                                         516009

Bābājī Mahārāja also I have consulted that "Being afraid, don't move me in the hospital." He also says, "No, don't do."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not going to do that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That Saṁjāta dāsa? You know Saṁjāta dāsa, the architect from Bhubaneshwar? He passed away recently. So I asked Gaura-govinda what were the circumstances. So he explained that he had been very ill for four or five days. They took him to the hospital. So the doctors gave some drugs for reducing the fever. But suddenly he died. When he died he was unconscious. Gaura-govinda said maybe it was due to the drugs that caused some severe reaction. We see one example after another that these hospitals, they are simply meant to kill, not to save life. I mean, I don't think we have any faith either in them, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And apart from our faith, which makes no difference, you strictly ordered it. So we're not going to disobey your order under any circumstance, even if we risk our own life. If someone says to us that "We will kill you if you don't let us take your Guru Mahārāja," then we'll say, "Then kill us." Your order is our command.

Prabhupāda: What does he say? They will kill?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I said supposing someone threatens us with our life, that "We will kill you if you don't let us take your Guru Mahārāja to the hospital," still, we will not let them take you. Your order is our business to follow, even at the risk of our life. So we are not going to take you to the hospital under any condition. Neither... Not only is it your order, but we also see absolutely no benefit from these hospitals. Your order is sufficient, but apart from that, also, from our own limited intelligence, we also see that the hospitals are condemned. These doctors are blind, these allopathic doctors.

Prabhupāda: That is my only request, that at the last stage don't torture me and put to death. So I am not eating anything, and if we chant, by batches chant, I'll hear. (Bengali)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Harināma-saìkīrtana. That is the medicine. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is the decision, that in case it does not improve, let me die here. If it improves, I shall be very glad to go... (Bengali)

 

Room Conversation(2)                             November 3, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                      515433

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lay down? (pause) Then I calculated what it would mean for the whole year.

Prabhupāda: Now we have to open temple in every village.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Temples in every village?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then spend money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then spend the money.

Prabhupāda: Don't keep money. Spend it. The karmīs, they spend for sense gratification. You spend for Kṛṣṇa.

 

Room Conversation                                  November 7, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                      516655

Prabhupāda: You don't strain for collecting. Then spiritual progress will be hampered.

                                                                                                                                                                        516674

Prabhupāda: Tāìdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. So you are all bhaktas. To live with you, to serve the lotus feet of the ācāryas, that's good...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We've already become famous as spiritual United Nations.

Jayapatākā: You've given the secret for success. (break)

Prabhupāda: If possible, make some improvement in Bhaktivinoda Öhākura's birthplace.

Jayapatākā: I was just thinking about that, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: At least repair it nicely, without any claim of our...

Jayapatākā: From the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

 

Room Conversation                                   November 8, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                     517068

Prabhupāda: So you come at four, have kīrtana (?). (break) I wish that you GBC manage very nicely and consider I am dead and let me try to travel all the tīrthasthāna. Without any responsibility. If I become recovered from this malady I shall come back and then I shall die in, what is it when the dead body is there, let them bring to Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana. I am thinking in this way. Bring little medicine and no medicine, little milk, and travel one place to another and if there is death, what is the lamentation? My age is ripe. In the open air and bullock cart or during daytime, eh? Or you can say semi-suicide, although living what consider me dead for the time. You manage and nowadays there is in India ample sunshine. So during daytime I shall travel and nighttime you make a camp under a tree. In this way let me travel all the tīrthas. I am thinking in this way. What is your opinion?

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we promise that we'll manage everything to the best of our ability.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are managing, I know, but you are all important men and unnecessarily you are bound up. You cannot go. So Lokanātha party has got some experience and let me go. In India the climate is now good. If I recover, it is very good. You know. So what is the wrong? If I die, then the body will be brought either in Vṛndāvana or Māyāpura, that's all. And if I live, it will be a great end of a life. You are all experienced.

Jayapatāka: As much as you have trained us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is only how much we are experienced. We don't want that you be burdened any more with material management problems but...

Prabhupāda: No, not from that point of view. What is the use of lying down here?

Jayapatāka: The kavirāja said...

Prabhupāda: Kavirāja may say...

Jayapatāka: ...that even that your body is going to, is got a life of six to ten years but he said even a healthy cow, if it's kept locked up inside of a room, then it will deteriorate.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, (laughs) don't keep me locked up. You do your duty as I have trained you and let me be free and if money required, he'll come and take and go back again as he is coming to take book.

Jayapatāka: What?

Prabhupāda: They have got experience Indian, you can go village to village and, arrangement as you may, but it is trouble taken, and I am no longer, you manage. If I live, I can come again. I shall be very glad.

Devotee: Previously it was mentioned that there was some risk in travelling.

Prabhupāda: What is that risk? Nowadays there is no risk. What is the risk? Mm?

Devotee: Well from the medical point of view it's something with the organs or something, I don't know exactly but it's been considered.

Prabhupāda: This is my proposal and...

Jayapatāka: That would be after you gained some strength, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If I (have) free air and free movement why sunshine (?) and I can come back again in a year.

Jayapatāka: You will be translating while you're travelling?

Prabhupāda: No, yes and no.

Bhavānanda: I think it's good idea, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ha.

Bhavānanda: Only factor at this point is not to take any unnecessary risk.

Prabhupāda: No. As I think free, so I remain. Mm. Then when I am sane man, I shall come back again either Māyāpura or Vṛndāvana or Bombay, any other.

Jayapatāka: You would travel by a minibus.

Prabhupāda: Mm?

Jayapatāka: You would travel by a bus.

Prabhupāda: That you think of.

Bhavānanda: We will all sit down and discuss the different arrangements that have to be made, plans that have to be made. It's a very nice idea. Real sannyāsa life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mm. You have tried doctor, kavirāja, medicine, everything. Everything has failed. Now suppose I am taking the risk of death, what is wrong? When the..., I am dead you go India, within India, you go and bring the body either in Māyāpura or Vṛndāvana. Māyāpura the land is already there. Vṛndāvana I think on the gate side, that's all. That's wherever you like you'll do.

Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you commented that when Öhākura Bhaktivinoda was put on the gate side that that was no way to respect a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Jayapatāka: So then doesn't seem proper to put you by the gate.

Prabhupāda: No, not by the gate. There is ample land. Or in Māyāpura, that will be very nice. Mm.

Jayapatāka: This kavirāja assures that by taking little milk frequently during the day...

Prabhupāda: I will take milk. Milk is available everywhere. (laughter) I shall take little milk and sleep, that's all. If I live, that's all right. If I don't live, that doesn't matter.

Bhavānanda: Very nice program. We can all accompany you at different times of the month.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very many, but you can come and go back.

Jayapatāka: Which holy places you would like to visit, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: India is full of holy places.

Jayapatāka: Kṛṣṇa-līlā, Mahāprabhu-līlā.

Prabhupāda: And gradually you go to Māyāpura. Is someone here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I...

Bhavānanda: He has heard everything.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Jayapatāka: By you going to the holy places, you will purify the holy places.

Prabhupāda: There are two things, life or death. So if I die where is the wrong? And if there is death, that is natural.

Jayapatāka: For you Śrīla Prabhupāda, to be alive or to die is no different because you are in the transcendental position, but for us when you leave the body then we are bereft of your association. So for us it is very unfortunate.

Prabhupāda: Then live by my words, by my training. Mm. (pause) So you like this idea? Mm?

Haṁsadūta: I liked it.

Prabhupāda: Who is it?

Adri-dharaṇa: It's Haṁsadūta Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Most places you beg from the local place and subsist, otherwise purchase.

Jayapatāka: You are very famous, Śrīla Prabhupāda, wherever you go there will be crowds of people to have your darśana.

Prabhupāda: So they will see me, I have no objection. I want little milk from them, that's all. (pause) So far my presence is required (for) management, I think I have bequeathed, properly you can manage. Hm. It is to be admitted failure, the so-called medical treatment, failure. (pause)

Jayapatāka: I'll be back to say that you defy all medical laws. Sometimes you become very weak and sometimes you become immediately strong. (pause)

Girirāja: I think this is a good idea.

Prabhupāda: Who is this?

Devotee: Girirāja.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Girirāja: Because, I mean, I don't have any faith in the doctors or their treatments because they're never working and ultimately it depends on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. He can exercise His will in any condition and you know, as you say, that if you go out and if you recover then it's very good. And even otherwise, I mean if that is the decision of Lord Kṛṣṇa, then this is a very glorious way. (pause)

Prabhupāda: All seriously consider this submission and let me go. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 November 10, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                     517132

Bhavānanda: We should begin the parikrama in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Because quite honestly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think most of us are very worried. If you go off down the road and send us all back to our different assignments, we would not be able to serve with our full attention, knowing that our beloved father and spiritual guide was in such weak condition. So if we begin in Vṛndāvana, we're all here now, we can see so that we know what arrangements to make for the future when you want to leave.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You make me flat. (break)

Jayapatākā: We heard that Your Divine Grace had a dream that a kavirāja of the Rāmānuja-sampradāya would treat you and bring you back to strength, and this kavirāja says that in a very short time, following the treatment, you would regain your strength. Although he hasn't got all of the medicines yet, but within a day or two they'll all be prepared, and he says within fifteen days you should be quite improved in strength. So far, he seems to have been quite sincere.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he's sincere. I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be.

Jayapatākā: Like to follow the same treatment, only while traveling.

Haṁsadūta: So we should meet and make a program for going around Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: You want to begin tomorrow morning?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): If Prabhupāda travels in a van it would be very bumpy. He should have a big bus.

Haṁsadūta: Let's discuss it.

Prabhupāda: Bus?

Devotee (1): A big bus.

Prabhupāda: No, no, bus will be not good. Bullock cart.

Bhavānanda: Bullock cart.

Jayapatākā: That is very bumpy.

Bhavānanda: Your Guru Mahārāja used to have bullock cart travel from Hulorghat [on the bank of the Ganges in Māyāpura] up to the Caitanya Maṭha. You told me you put a nice mattress down in the back and a cover, and you lay down there. You even told me once to go to Calcutta that way. You lay down, at night; you go little bit, little bit; and in the morning, when you wake up, you're in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Bullock, you get the cow dung.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cook with it.

Jayapatākā: In this part of India it's very cold now for Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: Underneath the tree it is not cold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You sound like you are very determined to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Daytime we expose in the sunshine, and camp underneath a tree at night. That has to be arranged. (Bengali with Bhakti-caru--Prabhupāda drinks something)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should the devotees take prasādam now?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about 1:30 now. After taking prasādam we can meet and chalk out a program for parikrama and tīrtha-yātrā. Is that all right? Okay.

Prabhupāda: I thought you have taken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we were all surrounding you, listening very intently to all your instructions.

Jagadīśa: Prasādam has been saved for the devotees that are here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three o'clock we'll meet. So we'll have our meeting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Lokanātha also present.

Jagadīśa: Satsvarūpa also.

Prabhupāda: Four o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm? Yes. And then we'll begin tomorrow. Is that soon enough?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we depart for taking prasādam now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Who is attending?

Bhavānanda: Upendra.

Prabhupāda: Upendra is very good attendant. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing how to make this parikrama possible, and we've concluded that the best thing was, as we said earlier, to parikrama around Vṛndāvana to begin with. And for that purpose we sent Lokanātha Mahārāja and Païca-draviòa Mahārāja and Trivikrama Mahārāja to get a bullock cart ready.

Prabhupāda: Hired or purchased?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, for now just hired, not purchased. Later on we can make a more permanent arrangement, and it can be fixed up as nicely as possible. At the same time while we were meeting, the kavirāja, he also was present. So we inquired from him what he thought about this program, from a medical point of view of course. Spiritually he is in complete agreement. So from a medical point of view, he said that you would not at all be able to withstand this kind of a trip. He said that in a bullock cart, moving around, bumping on the road, you might not be able to live more than a couple of hours. He's here now. He wanted to speak to you.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Lokanātha?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lokanātha has already gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Haṁsadūta: He has gone to Mathurā for renting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has gone out for renting the bullock cart.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lokanātha says that the bullock cart could probably go around Vṛndāvana in about five to six hours, parikramming Vṛndāvana town.

Prabhupāda: Make an experiment. Then we shall decide.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Make an experiment. Then we shall decide."

Jayapatākā: What is that experiment?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's asking what that experiment is, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikrama.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Vṛndāvana parikrama."

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, does it mean with Your Divine Grace, or we should go alone first and see?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: Does it mean that Your Divine Grace will come on the experiment, or we should go without Your Divine Grace and experiment?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Jayapatākā: See if the road is very rough, if the road is passable by bullock cart the whole way.

Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is not smooth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart is not smooth. How would you propose that we go, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Come, let us take the risk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go anyway. Let us take the risk.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're all neophytes. We don't know what is right and what is wrong. But at the same time we feel that we're very hopeful that you'll get strength slowly and slowly. And this morning you were telling us that you get a little strength, so we are hoping every day that "Prabhupāda will gain even stronger and be with us for many more years." So we are taking advice from kavirāja that you take milk more and more, day by day, so that Prabhupāda will get stronger. Like kavirāja is suggesting that when Your Divine Grace gets stronger, he'll go with you in the parikrama, he will accompany you.

Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment in Vṛndāvana.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall we do that immediately?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm.

Bhakti-caru: (Hindi)

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji's saying that he shouldn't do it under the circumstances.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we follow the kavirāja's instructions and advice, then he feels that within fifteen days, twenty days, you will have strength. To take an unnecessary risk at this time, we have to practically appraise what will be the loss. You have said, "If I live or die on this parikrama, it will be glorious," but the loss will be that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not be finished, so many works will be unfinished. If it's just a matter of being a little patient and waiting fifteen more days--is only two weeks--then when you have strength, then we can all go on the parikrama, and you'll be able to hopefully gain more strength and finish up all of these works. But I think that the risk, in terms of the future of the whole world, is too great.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikrama is not risk.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you went on this parikrama the other day around the temple, you became dizzy just going around the temple four times. That's when you were even able to sit up in bed a lot more. How is it going to be possible to go for four, five or six hours, when you couldn't...

Prabhupāda: Not four, five, six...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how long it takes to go around Vṛndāvana by bullock cart. It takes three hours walking at a good pace, and it takes at least five or six hours, Lokanātha says, by bullock cart. How...? We couldn't even go a half hour just around this temple.

Prabhupāda: No, I traveled. It takes two hours in the morning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Walking.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by bullock cart. That's when a man walks very quickly you can do it in two hours, but by bullock cart it will take five hours. We have... You had difficulty even doing a half-hour parikrama around this temple. You became very faint. Whether you think that you can go five hours in a row?

Prabhupāda: From Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha, bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī here? Okay.

Prabhupāda: And Indu.

Bhakti-caru: Indu-mati Prabhu?

Prabhupāda: Indu-mati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Indu-mati.

Prabhupāda: Then talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, you know Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira? You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī, Prabhupāda's Godbrother? You know? So Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma will go with you. Prabhupāda wants to see Indu-mati and Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī. You bring them both. You go in one of the cars. Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma--not the Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī from Rādhā-kuṇòa. Mādhava Mahārāja's.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your humble disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are ready to take my instruction that you've kindly given us, but at the same time, you have advised us many times that we shouldn't take unnecessary risk. Just like few days ago you were telling a Bengali saying, saying that when you are doubtful, don't do it. You instructed us.

Prabhupāda: That is material. (laughter)

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you tell us why you want to go on the parikrama?

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...good paddy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This seems like suicide, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this program. It seems to some of us like it's suicidal.

Prabhupāda: And this is also suicidal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Prabhupāda said, "And this is also suicide." Now you have to choose which suicide.

Prabhupāda: The Rāvaṇa will kill and Rāma will kill. Better to be killed by Rāma. Eh? That Mārīca--if he does not go to mislead Sītā, he'll be killed by Rāvaṇa; and if he goes to be killed by Rāma, then it is better.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is this Prabhupāda's talking about?

Devotees: Mārīca.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, just judging the symptoms, which is all that we can do, certain symptoms have certainly picked up. For instance, you're passing more urine, stool is coming naturally, and you're able to drink milk without getting any cough. These things were never there before.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That will continue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kavirāja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem, you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing, you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kavirāja is suggesting what you yourself had always said, "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kavirāja's treatment... To my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms... The symptoms have been better under his treatment than any doctor so far.

Prabhupāda: That will work.

Bhavānanda: It will work.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's resting better than before.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the idea is that... According to him... I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and... I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart..., a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment, but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any other doctors that we've had. I mean we who are closely around you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, your servants, secretary, our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine...

Prabhupāda: That I know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He feels quite confident that you can live for six, seven more years, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodar: We also feel very confident.

Tamāla: Kṛṣṇa: Better that you live for six or seven years productively than that you go on this parikrama and die within two hours gloriously. Why not live for six or seven years and then go on parikrama and die? If the parikrama can always be done, why not put it off for six or seven more years of preaching?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You've already been glorious, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all over the world. Whether you're here or outside doesn't really matter. You're already glorious.

Jayapatākā: By your presence countless souls will attain devotional service. That's more glorious.

Prabhupāda: But I think I shall be cured.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he thinks he will be cured by the parikrama. (Bhakti-caru and Shastriji--Hindi)

Haṁsadūta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupāda's opinion is more or less than the kavirāja's, is what it comes down to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can't continue..., consider. Śrīla Prabhupāda has to.

Haṁsadūta: If Prabhupāda says that by going on parikrama he feels he'll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him?

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Kuvera?

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji is telling Prabhupāda to ask the Kuvera's puṣpaka-ratha. That is airplane of Kuvera. And do the parikrama in that. Then there won't be any pumping in that way. And he's saying that if Prabhupāda asks for that, he will sure get it. (devotees chuckle)

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately what Prabhupāda decides, we will do.

Haṁsadūta: Well, it just...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but it goes on. As Prabhupāda goes on, his disciples also go on.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji's saying, Mahārāja... Shastriji's saying that Prabhupāda shouldn't talk too much. It's bad for his heart.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can have kīrtana until Kṛṣṇa dāsa comes. Okay. (kīrtana) Lokanātha is here, over there, Śrīla...

Prabhupāda: So? Where did you go?

Lokanātha: I went to Mathurā. I went first to Vṛndāvana and looked for the carts. They were not very good kind. They were made for rough loads. So I went to Mathurā and spoke to one farmer. He had a fairly big size cart and two strong bullocks, and he asked for a hundred rupees. He wouldn't come down. So ultimately I agreed for a hundred rupees. And he will reach tonight at eleven o'clock. I asked him to start immediately, but they have pūjā--as we have go-pūjā, they also have oxen pūjā today--so he will only reach at eleven o'clock, and he will be with us all day long tomorrow. I had to give him one day or maximum...

Prabhupāda: So what do you think?

Lokanātha: Of what?

Prabhupāda: How many carts you have?

Lokanātha: I got just one today, one for you, and those who serve you, they could also sit besides you in the cart, and the rest could do kīrtana around the bullock cart, and the whole unit, bullock cart and saìkīrtana group, will move together.

Prabhupāda: So what we have to pay?

Lokanātha: We'll pay hundred rupees, one day. Of course, you want to have it for all the time. Best thing is to purchase a set of bullocks, two bullocks, and a cart.

Prabhupāda: You have got experience.

Lokanātha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is better?

Lokanātha: Well, depends on whether we like to use it for longer time. Then we should purchase. If it is just for a few days, best thing is to hire.

Prabhupāda: Hundreds rupees and food.

Lokanātha: No. He has his food for himself and bullocks. So that's for the cart, two bullocks and the driver.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Lokanātha: Yes. This is what they earn for living. Usually they carry different loads from place to another place. Each trip they take twenty rupees, thirty rupees, fifty rupees, according to distance and the load they carry. But it's expensive to keep it for many days.

Prabhupāda: No. If it is inconvenient, we may not keep.

Lokanātha: If it is convenient?

Prabhupāda: Then we shall keep.

Lokanātha: So we'll hire first and see how it goes, works. And if you think it is nice, or comfortable, all right with you, then we can purchase.

Prabhupāda: So how many we are going?

Lokanātha: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many what?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How many will be going?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all the devotees want to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.

Haṁsadūta: That's nice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So how many carts you require?

Païca-draviòa: Just one.

Lokanātha: One for now. We also had a meeting, and we were discussing that if we go around just in Vṛndāvana, all will go. But if we keep going from holy place to holy place, then we have to decide whether everyone goes or just a few of us go.

Prabhupāda: So you are hiring for how many days?

Lokanātha: This is only for one day it is hired now, but we could continue to hire the same cart for several more days by paying extra money.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Our experiment...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It certainly is an experiment. Of course, we always like experiments to be successful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where he'll go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Where will we go? We thought tomorrow to go around the parikrama path.

Prabhupāda: Which parikrama path?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana parikrama.

Lokanātha: Does a cart go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've never tried it with a cart. Smara-hari, you say a cart couldn't go?

Lokanātha: No, he says it cannot go.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Smara-hari, who is familiar with the parikrama path, says that a bullock cart would not be able to pass in many of the places.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, then that means we can't do a Vṛndāvana parikrama.

Smara-hari: For example in Keśī-ghāṭa there's no...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's experienced. He says...

Lokanātha: This Vṛndāvana parikrama is mainly for walking and circumambulating. It's not meant for going in a vehicle, motor vehicle or bullock cart.

Haṁsadūta: Suppose we would go to Keśī-ghāṭa or one of the important temples like Govindajī.

Lokanātha: Those are seven temples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, another possibility is to go to the places where the main temples are, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Gosvāmīs' temples.

Haṁsadūta: Tomorrow is Govardhana-pūjā, and a procession through the city of Vṛndāvana would be very ecstatic.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Païca-draviòa: One parade.

Prabhupāda: Others will come also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, well, if we go through Vṛndāvana, probably many people will come.

Haṁsadūta: Then we could also get some experience, because if we were, for example, to go to Govardhana, we would have to pass over similar roads.

Lokanātha: This cart does not have cover, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This bullock cart which I hired has no cover on the top.

Haṁsadūta: So we have to cover it.

Bhakti-caru: Lokanātha Swami, you apparently didn't get one question of Prabhupāda. He asked what do you think about this trip. You didn't answer that. You have some experience with bullock carts. What do you think? In this condition Śrīla Prabhupāda will withstand the trip? You know in what condition Prabhupāda is in now.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart are usually very bumpy.

Devotee: This has rubber tires.

Lokanātha: If these roads are not bad, and the cart has tire wheels...

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Lokanātha: So we're discussing bumping, so won't be much bumping on the cart. Also, we always could go slow. If Prabhu-pāda wants to make an experiment, we could make one day...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A few hours.

Prabhupāda: I am thinking I am lying here... (break)

Lokanātha: ...should ride in very nice carts, a chariot.

Prabhupāda: No, (indistinct). (laughter)

Lokanātha: I saw one in Maharastra. In Poona. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You can purchase immediately. (laughter)

Lokanātha: We'll have to design it. They're not ready-made like that. The kind which we want, the pull-on kind, with cover on top and nice arrangements, we have to design it and order it. Get it made. There's a place called Meerut, north of Delhi...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I sent you. You have got already experience.

Lokanātha: You said you want to make an experiment, so let us make an experiment with this hired bullock cart, and in few days' time...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So where will we go tomorrow if we go?

Prabhupāda: Govardhana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhana.

Païca-draviòa: That's very far. We went on one parade three years ago in Vṛndāvana, with elephants, that Your Divine Grace went. Maybe we could go on that same route.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhana will take about six hours to reach there.

Lokanātha: No, how many kilometers is that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's very far.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-eight to thirty kilometers.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It takes one hour by car.

Lokanātha: Take five kilometers an hour.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's six hours to get there. Six hours to get there, and then three hours around Govardhana. Nine hours.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And six hours back.

Païca-draviòa: And the bulls might have to rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to rest the bulls, don't you?

Païca-draviòa: There's one route we went on in Vṛndāvana, on a parade. Shorter route. First time, as an experiment, we could go a shorter distance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's quite a big experiment to make, going to Govardhana the first day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You feel confident that you can travel nine hours in a row on a bullock cart?

Prabhupāda: I am sleeping here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Lokanātha: He says he's sleeping here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is not a bullock cart.

Prabhupāda: The same thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The same thing?

Jayādvaita: One thing is that in the Gosvāmī temples they have govardhana-śilā. That's also Govardhana.

Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The main concern of the devotees is that whether you will be able to survive such an experiment. But before, you said that you felt that such a parikrama would actually cure you. You said that. So your vision is transcendental, because you are the spiritual master. You're a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So if you say that it will cure you and that it will be beneficial for you, then we have to carry out that..., whatever you desire. We do not know. We're just on the mundane platform.

Prabhupāda: One-day experiment. It is for one day?

Lokanātha: We have hired it for one day.

Prabhupāda: Rest assured. I will not die in one day.

Haṁsadūta: So we should go to Govardhana? Because tomorrow is Govardhana-pūjā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we shall make our cooking there and...

Lokanātha: We should start early.

Prabhupāda: He has got experience. Dig the ground and make our foodstuff. Very good picnic.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good picnic.

Haṁsadūta: If we go to Govardhana, we would take the prasādam that was prepared here and bring it there, so that many people can take.

Prabhupāda: I have no objection.

Lokanātha: Or otherwise we can make real picnic. We could collect some grains there from door to door and cook some khicuṛi there.

Prabhupāda: That will be very nice.

Guṇārṇava: There are already many thousands and thousands of people there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Perhaps it will take a long time to get there because of traffic. I was in Mathurā today. Every ten minutes buses and ṭāìgās and so many kinds of vehicles were going to Govardhana. There are many, many thousands of people there today.

Païca-draviòa: Besides that, the devotees would have to walk nine hours in the sun.

Guṇārṇava: Perhaps the road will be very busy tomorrow, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew!

Haṁsadūta: Can't walk?

Prabhupāda: No, let them take their time. They do that. It is very nice picnic.

Lokanātha: From my village there is this pilgrimage called Pandarpur. This is sixty miles. And still, old men, they just travel, walk. Every ekādaśī they go.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Lokanātha: Every ekādaśī they go to Pandarpur, have darśana of Charukmari(?), and return on foot.

Haṁsadūta: You have assured us that in one day you're not going to die, and you want to make this experiment, so we should do it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Haṁsadūta: We'll do it with great enthusiasm. Your Divine Grace is infallible. So if you say that it will help and cure you, then that must be a fact. You've never been wrong about anything, Prabhupāda, so you must be right this time also.

Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment. Don't hesitate.

Païca-draviòa: So we can fix up the cart tonight.

Haṁsadūta: Where's the cart? Outside?

Païca-draviòa: It's coming.

Lokanātha: It will reach at eleven o'clock here. So I suggest right after maìgala-ārati we'll go, or we should start.

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, take me in a comfortable position. That's all. As far as possible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Comfortable position.

Prabhupāda: That...

Païca-draviòa: Arrange one bed on the cart. This mattress can go in nice arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is not the best. There is other mattresses that are as good or better than this. The temple has many gadis. We'll get them.

Païca-draviòa: We can make nice arrangement. This will purify Govardhana Hill, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tīrthas become purified by the presence of...

Lokanātha: Another tīrtha.

Païca-draviòa: Yes. Prabhupāda will go to the tīrtha.

Jagadīśa: You're a Vaiṣṇava like Arjuna and Hanumān, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Tomorrow is a great festival.

Lokanātha: Tomorrow is Govardhana-pūjā festival.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are in Vṛndāvana, and we shall not take part? We must take part.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. We are in Vṛndāvana and we are not taking part. We must take part.

Païca-draviòa: So we should all go to Govardhana?

Prabhupāda: Why not? Who is here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About thirty or forty devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're just like puppets, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We are all unfit to make any decision. Whatever Your Divine Grace instructs us to do, we just follow.

Prabhupāda: So, Lokanātha, what do you say?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What do you say, Lokanātha Mahārāja?

Lokanātha: We should make experiment to please you.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Lokanātha: That will be ever-new experience for us also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: It will be historic. Many people have been invited to the temple here. Many people have been invited to attend the function here at the mandira.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thousands of people are expected to come tomorrow.

Païca-draviòa: That can also go on.

Prabhupāda: When they have invited?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: When?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tomorrow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What time?" he's asking.

Bhavānanda: At 11 a.m.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At around noontime, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a big feast at one o'clock.

Prabhupāda: So half of our men may come back.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half of the men may come, and half should stay. All the Vṛndāvana devotees can stay. All the visiting devotees should go. All right, we'll make that division, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Keep that palanquin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep the palanquin on the cart?

Prabhupāda: Cart?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Palanquin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where should we keep it? With us on the cart?

Prabhupāda: Carry it.

Haṁsadūta: Bring it along.

Païca-draviòa: We'll bring it along. (discussion of how to do this)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we'll come back from Govardhana?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So after circumambulating Govardhana, we will return to Vṛndāvana or stay out?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Païca-draviòa: Maybe we could stay overnight.

Lokanātha: When we are there, out, we'll decide.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can't come back tomorrow night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's helpful for the devotees to know, just so they can bring something to wrap around when it gets to be nighttime. It's not the middle of the summer, you know. It is...

Lokanātha: We have two, three vehicles here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm saying it's something that should be considered now, and not when we get there. You said when we get there we'll see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should make all the plans complete.

Prabhupāda: That you consider.

Bhavānanda: We should go with plans for staying overnight.

Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me?

Lokanātha: I think we'll have to stay there.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, definitely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We definitely have to stay there.

Haṁsadūta: :Six hours to go, three hours to go, that's nine. It's not possible to come back. So one night, spending one night in Govardhana.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The devotees are crashing after two hours.

Lokanātha: The devotees should be prepared to stay overnight there. Under the trees. (laughter)

Haṁsadūta: We're supposed to be gosvāmīs. We have to stay under a tree. Different tree every night.

Lokanātha: When we were traveling from Vṛndāvana to Māyāpura we stayed many times. Outside we'd live under the tree. It's nice.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, but if just one window is open at night, Prabhupāda starts feeling cold in spite of the blanket.

Lokanātha: You are making mundane.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very cold in the early morning hours.

Haṁsadūta: We'll bring the van, and Prabhupāda can stay in the van overnight, or we'll find some place.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the āśramas will be overcrowded.

Païca-draviòa: We can sleep around the van. Prabhupāda is like a desire tree. He satisfies everybody.

Lokanātha: That cart could be turned into house. Have bamboo sticks, cover it with...

Prabhupāda: So begin to plan.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think Lokanātha Swami should make the route, completely planned out, and the place also where we're going to picnic so that everything has to be arranged well ahead of time.

Prabhupāda: So do it.

Païca-draviòa: Yes, we'll prepare the cart tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Lokanātha: When we started the bullock cart you said, "Go to the heart of the village," and we said, "What is this heart?" You said, "Wherever there is well, water, we should camp. We should stay." That is where we could remain clean.

Prabhupāda: That you have experience. I have no experience.

Lokanātha: Maybe you sent me to experience this bullock cart program so that you could...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: ...in future go on bullock cart.

Prabhupāda: For me it is experiment.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should also request kavirāja to come along?

Prabhupāda: Invite him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can come in the van.

Païca-draviòa: Then it is all decided. You want to take some rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Haṁsadūta: Can we have some kīrtana, Prabhupāda? (kīrtana)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are you finished passing urine? Yes. (break) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Daṇòavat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said daṇòavat.

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali with Prabhupāda about parikrama)

Prabhupāda: Make an experiment.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What time we start?

Bhavānanda: Five o'clock.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Somebody may go and bring his mālā-japa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bring him?

Prabhupāda: Bring his beads.

Haṁsadūta: Where are they?

Prabhupāda: Where they are?

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: At Imlitala. I can go. I can go and come back.

Prabhupāda: You can go in car.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll send... Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your mālā are at Imlitala.

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Yes. Let me go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll take you by car. You can get your mālā. You'll stay overnight here.

Haṁsadūta: Someone could pick it up for him in a riksha.

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: I can go.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll bring him by car. He can get his things and bring him back. He'll get his bedding.

Prabhupāda: His bedding and beading. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bedding and beading.

Jagadīśa: Bedding and what?

Upendra: Beading.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Is that all right? (Bengali)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're sending someone.

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: No, no, I'll go personally.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we'll go with a car. He can come and collect his things.

Prabhupāda: So make arrangement.

Tamal Krsna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Jayapatākā: ...that if you feel any pain or experience any difficulty, then we can bring you back.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I'm not obstinate. (laughter)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Sādhu-saìga sādhu-saìga sarva-siddhi... (Bengali) Either the experiment success or... (Bengali) Parikrama. (Bengali)

Haṁsadūta: Someone has to take him to Imlitala to get his things.

Jayapatākā: (Bengali)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali)

Jayapatākā: Should there be kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? You like kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To go.

Prabhupāda: To request not to go?

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'll tell you, I'm getting so upset sitting in the room upstairs. I mean I just... I was walking around... Two of the devotees told me this road is so bad that if you go on this road, you're going to be jolted back and forth. The road is terrible. I just can't understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why it has to be tomorrow that we have to go. If anybody wants you to travel, I do. My whole desire is to take you all over the world. I want to take you on parikrama, but why do we have to go when you're in this condition? I can't understand it. It just... I was standing outside. This kavirāja, he has worked so hard. He's so much disappointed. He can't understand why he... He says that now, today, you've taken half a kilo of milk. No mucus has is being produced. No stool is being passed. He says tomorrow he wants to give you a medicine that will begin to build the milk into muscles. He's going to get you to a point where you can take two kilos of milk a day. And he says very soon you'll be able to have the strength to actually do parikrama. So why are we throwing everything out the window, that we must go tomorrow? I cannot understand.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Bhakti-caru: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bhavānanda: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I cannot refuse all your request.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we cannot refuse your request. We will take you all over tīrtha-yātrā, to all the places. Just that you get a little stronger. You'll be free of all management. You simply go to tīrthas and take darśana of all the Deities in India. Everyone will stay in their respective places. They'll manage. But we just want you to be stronger.

Prabhupāda: All right. That will satisfy you?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bābājī Mahārāja also, you also thought that? We did not talk to him.

Bhavānanda: We were just on our way down the stairs to come and see Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda?

Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are satisfied?

Bhavānanda: Now I am, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. (laughter) I was in too much anxiety.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot put you in anxiety. You have done so much. You have suffered in Māyāpura so much. I cannot put you in anxiety. So I shall do what you like. (Bengali) Lefthand, righthand. I cannot refuse.

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean I'm amazed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. A half a kilo of milk you've drank today--no mucus, no stool, and that is wonderful. You could not have done this two weeks ago.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, when I told the kavirāja he got quite amazed. He told me, "Don't give any more milk. It might..." But Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted some milk now, so I'll give.

Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's out again getting medicine. This man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Adri-dhāraṇa says he sits up all night worried about you, thinking, taxing his mind how to give you just what you require.

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhakti-caru: Yesterday, when I went to call him at 4:30, I saw him sitting on his bed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All night. He goes in the jungle four, five hours looking for roots, herbs to give you. He's so sincere.

Prabhupāda: So many well-wishers, I cannot refuse. This is not my business. (Bengali) All right. You take Bābājī Mahārāja. That will be my going. (laughter)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Jaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the bullock cart will go tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Govardhana.

Prabhupāda: Yes, other devotees can go. I cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll go on your behalf, but you will go one day. That we promise you.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our greatest pleasure will be to take you on tīrtha-yātrā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We wanted so much to go with you on that.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're so much attached to you that you practically drive us to madness sometimes. Tonight we were becoming mad.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I shall not do that. Bābājī Mahārāja? (Bengali) So you will take bath in Rādhā-kuṇòa on my behalf.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll get you better, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and you will also be able to take bath personally there. We'll see you get better.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will make all of our words come true, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali--brings milk for Prabhupāda)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this kavirāja, I mean we're fortunate to get this sincere man.

Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's out working, at work.

Bhavānanda: Adri, see if he's here, kavirāja.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As soon as he comes, he can come and see Prabhupāda. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                  November 13, 1977, Vṛndāvana                                                    517726

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Lokanātha: Now, 11:35.

Prabhupāda: You have got all in your charge.

Lokanātha: Yes, I have.

Prabhupāda: Tamāla?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Consult with him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Make up a tour? All right. Very good.

Prabhupāda: Since a long time I have got a desire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Prabhupāda's had this ambition for a long time.

Lokanātha: Travel in the holy places. So you'll be doing in...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can discuss.

Jayādvaita: Lord Balarāma, He did that. He went to all the holy places. So in the same way, if you can get a little strength from Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma here in Vṛndāvana, then you can... Lord Balarāma was going to all the different places.

Prabhupāda: I give you idea. Where is Lokanātha?

Lokanātha: Yes, I'm here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What is called? Front party.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of party?

Prabhupāda: Front party.

Lokanātha: Front party, advance party, yes.

Prabhupāda: They'll give us description of the land, and before our going, they'll make a camp. Small, big, that doesn't matter. And in the morning, the former camp broken, and go to the next camp with kīrtana. In the meantime the other camp is ready to receive you. Then the next camp, after taking prasādam, they'll go to the next camp.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you follow this, Lokanātha? Do you have a question to ask?

Lokanātha: So there is a smaller group going in advance, and bigger group with you stays back.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: Yes, and they go, fix the place, and inform your party where they are and what kind of arrangement they have made. And when you are satisfied, you leave that place to join the first group, small group, advance party. Right?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And after Prabhupāda joins that group, then the advance party goes again.

Lokanātha: To the next place, to make further arrangements at the next place.

Prabhupāda: In this way.

Lokanātha: Ye. This kind of program we have done before also. Whenever we had big group traveling, we always send two devotees out, or sometimes four devotees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also did that with our Rādhā-Dāmodara program. That is the way of traveling--advance booking.

Lokanātha: Yes, so the main party does not lose time in finding or looking for the place.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not inconvenienced in any way.

 Lokanātha: Right. So that advance party could wait at the gate of the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wherever. But that's the idea.

Prabhupāda: And when you go in procession, have kīrtana.

Lokanātha: Yes. That would be nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Originally, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we talked of this idea, we were considering going with a few vehicles so that we could go to many holy places all over India. I still think that that's the best idea, and Lokanātha also agreed with me when we talked about this. Because bullock carts...

(Last of conversations arranged in overall time sequence)

 

 

 

ADDENDED CONVERSATIONS

Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food. Just like people generally save foodstuff from the attack of other animals. But spiritual communism... (break) We ought to make them happy. We want to see everyone is happy. That is our mission. Actually all our students who are presently working with us they are feeling happiness... (indistinct) So everyone will be happy if they take to this movement. We want to see that everyone is happy. That is our mission. We don't want to exploit others.

 

As soon as we have got some time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Either loudly or silent... As far as possible loudly; if not possible, silently. But the tongue must go, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. The tongue must work. And as far as possible, should be heard... That is... And officially, krkshaharama (Prabhupāda chants very fast with words running into each other indistinctly). Not like that (chants again like that) Not like that. That will not... Every word should be distinctly chanted and heard, not official. So stress on this point. As far as possible, people should be encouraged to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and try to bring the ecstasy and dance. Even there is no ecstasy, dance, it will bring ecstasy. Dancing is so nice. Chanting, dancing and take prasādam. Take rest. That's all. Not that you shall take rest like Kumbhakarṇa.

 

Stress on saìkīrtana, chant yourself, induce others, dance. Whole thing will be a successful.

Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.

Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...

Reporter: Vaiśyas.

Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.

Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

 

It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction, that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya.

 

That was good proposal--to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries."

 

Household life or in city life we should not be extravagant, unnecessarily eating, unnecessarily enjoying. No, that is not the... One man's food, another man's poison. We must know this philosophy. (break) ...and even we..., my health is not always going on nicely. Still, why I am trying? That is my ambition. I want to begin one revolution. Their godless civilization..., against godless civilization. That is my ambition. The America will be the best person to be educated in this line and to lead, to become the leaders. They're already leader, but they must be real leader now, so that the whole world may be happy.

Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously…So you must take this clue, that we Americans, we say "In God we trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness…The America must rise up to the occasion. They have pledged themselves, "In God we trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust. So America, especially taken up the slogan as part of Constitution. Now there should be regular educational program, that every child, every man, every woman will trust in God.

 

That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He's not only my friend, He's friend of, even of the ant.

 

He says that "In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. So we were thinking that this is imagination, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult would be spread all over the world, everyone will chant. So you have done it."

 

The government was pleased to reply that they're maintaining themselves by selling literature. Similarly, if it comes to the notice of the government that they're maintaining ourselves by production of food, they'll like very much.

 

But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided.

 

If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical--everything is there.

So that we have to accept, and His instructions, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajïa. Yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. In this way people can be happy.

 

So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world… Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ… So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

 

If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajïa." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?

 

The world is full of rascals and fourth-class men. That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict…The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are becoming bad to worse, and still they'll claim, "We are first class."

 

At that time, the description in the history is kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. On account of good rains, the earth used to produce immense necessities of life. Just like this portion is maintained with sufficient water, there is green everywhere. So if there is sufficient rain, everywhere you can do. Where is the question of overpopulation?

 

Sinful man is given this form of tea(?), a tree. So, but nature is so nice that even the sinful living entities can beautify. How properly utilized. But they have no fruits and flowers.

 

Take the òāl, urad òāl, and make it powder like flour, and knead it with oil. And give masalā and then make like cāpāṭi. And when it is dry it is pāpad. It is not difficult. Add little soda-bicarb.

 

Leaves can be also utilized as fire, but they do not know that. In India they collect, poor man, and use as fuel, they cook food. All this dry twigs and this, that can be used as fuel, at the same time the ground will be cleansed.

 

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, everyone is using computers.

Prabhupāda: To save money. Machine means unemployment for many. Tractor, they're using, they're unemployment for bulls and plowmen and then they, bulls have to be killed. This is going on. Unemployment, then kill them. Vietnam, send all the men to fight and kill them. As soon as there is overpopulation, they declare war so that people may be killed.

 

Kīrtanānanda: So village life is best.

Prabhupāda: That is the best life. That you develop. It will be an ideal thing. You haven't got to go office fifty miles off. Just get little vegetables and milk, bas, your problem is solved. It is practical. Why you should go fifty miles off?

 

I am also thinking of their fresh vegetables and fresh milk. (devotees laugh) Which is not avail...All fresh vegetable, fresh milk, this is celestial. Who has got the opportunity in the city?

 

But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I... That, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again.

 

That is also nasty. Frozen means nasty…All rotten, rather the same vegetable, as we have got in India practice, we dry it and keep it. That is tasteful.

 

 

This I want to introduce, let them be satisfied whatever they can produce themselves locally. What is that, little cloth, little food? Any man can produce these things. There is no difficulty at all. They must agree to this simple life. Otherwise, everywhere you can produce your own food and cloth and cottage. If possible you can construct big buildings. There is no need.

     And they should be satisfied, happy with Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful.

                             This I want to introduce now, anywhere.

And it is practical. It is not something bogus. It is... We have already experimented. By God's grace we can produce everything from the lands, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī? You can get everything. If they are satisfied with this simple life, then they save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and happy life. In India they don't require even cottage. One katiya (?) is sufficient… Very happy life it was, all over India.

 

 

Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth... This should be organized. And they'll be glad.

 

 

People have lost the program…Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat store. Take paper. Purchase store. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get and they spend ten rupees for wine, and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee, no milk. Soul killing civilization.

 

 

Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany, I know...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Everywhere. I myself when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India, or Germany, or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva-kāma-dughā. We get everything from that.

 

Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor, use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing.

Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor?

Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get...?

Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. Now if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise, it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport, and plowing.

 

 

Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca, na vidur āsurāḥ. In which way we have direct out activities, in which way we shall have to stop our activities: they do not know. Āsurāḥ janā. Because they don't take direction from God.

 

 

Let everyone remain in nature's... You take fruit from the trees and drink milk, you are also sufficient. You don't require to cook even. There are fruits. Formerly all the sages they were taking fruits from the trees, and milk from the cows. That's all. They did not even produce food. Like agriculture. No. Whatever nature is supplying, that's all. But you are killing the cows, eating the meat, and producing no food and and making things, complicated. This is your civilization.

 

 

Everyone is unhappy. Who is happy here?

Harikeśa: I mean, you say that to anybody in America, they'll go, "I'm happy."

Prabhupāda: Everyone is unhappy, America, India, god or beast everyone is unhappy. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya, bhaya means fearfulness. That is unhappiness. Everyone is afraid what will happen next. This is unhappiness.

 

 

 

 

If anyone depends on the master's mercy, he's a śūdra. Here in New Delhi, these big, big buildings, big, big officers, as soon as the government will fail, they will be street dogs, that's all. Now they are plundering, by official instrument. Now when the government will be finished, they will be street dog.

 

 

Anything change means it is the domain of rascals, pandemonium. Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that, nā striyāṁ svatantratām arhati, women should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact. If you want to change, you suffer. That's all…

 

 

Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no hope, that's a fact. There will be more chaotic condition and everyone will suffer and perish. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. This is already predicted. I am not painting. It is already there, I am simply repeating. That's all. I am not speculator.

 

 

Harikeśa: Śyāmasundara told me that he wanted to make millions of dollars for you so that he could...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) And I am thinking when making millions of dollars, he may not be lost. (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya! (break) ...millions of dollars, I shall do. I have got money. I want one soul saved, that is more than millions of dollars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be satisfied, happy with Krsna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VOLUME THIRTY SEVEN  (ADDENDED CONVERSATIONS)

Interview                                                           July 20, 1972, Paris                                                              342708

Prabhupāda: Spiritual communism means that these so-called communists they are concerned with the limited thing. Just like the communists in Russia or China, they are thinking of their country main only. They are not thinking of others. Or they're thinking only they human beings, not of the animals. But our spiritual comm... Communist means that we take care, not only of the human being, but of the animals also. We don't think that the human being is only our own community. We think every living is within the community, center being God. Just like spiritual our communism means... Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food. Just like people generally save foodstuff from the attack of other animals. But spiritual communism... (break) We ought to make them happy. We want to see everyone is happy. That is our mission. Actually all our students who are presently working with us they are feeling happiness... (indistinct) So everyone will be happy if they take to this movement. We want to see that everyone is happy. That is our mission. We don't want to exploit others.

Devotee: He asks specifically, in the Christian society (indistinct) already has a culture of... (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...that's (indistinct) culture. Nobody's actually Christian.

Devotee: ...he wants to know when you elect someone into a social office... (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is our Vedic civilization that their life should be (indistinct).

Devotee: ...how a man such as yourself, in such a high position and such hierarchy was able to leave all this in order to bring this message to others?

Prabhupāda: No. It's not to be... Life is divided into four parts: brahmacārī, student, gṛhastha, householder, vānaprastha, retired life and sannyāsa. Everyone should follow this principle. First of all, as brahmacārī student he should learn sufficiently what is the value of life. Then, when he's a householder, he should live properly with husband, wife and children--properly. Then, after retired life, giving the responsibility of household life to grown-up children, he should take lessons from saintly persons. (indistinct) Then at the end he should take sannyāsa. Whatever knowledge he has gathered he must distribute by traveling from one place to another. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone should come out. Not that they should remain at home and drink and sleep for the whole life. This is Vedic civilization.

 

Room Conversation                                        July 16, 1973, London                                                            350041

Prabhupāda: Make show. So we should not increase the show very,very much. Show shortcut show. That's all. Real business is... Āula, bāula, karttābhajā, neòā, daraveśa, sāìi sahajiyā, sakhībhekī, smārta, jāta-gosāïi, they have been condemned by Bhaktivinoda Öhākura, smārta and jāta-gosāïi. Smārta-paṇòita, very serious about performing ceremonial rituals, they are called smārtas. This Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, also Vaiṣṇava-smṛti, that is also imitation of smārtaism. It is called smṛti. So at least in Europe and America, they will never be able to take all these things. The things should be made shortcut; at the same time, they should be successful. So that is chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, depending on... As soon as we have got some time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Either loudly or silent... As far as possible loudly; if not possible, silently. But the tongue must go, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. The tongue must work. And as far as possible, should be heard... That is... And officially, krkshaharama (Prabhupāda chants very fast with words running into each other indistinctly). Not like that (chants again like that) Not like that. That will not... Every word should be distinctly chanted and heard, not official. So stress on this point. As far as possible, people should be encouraged to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and try to bring the ecstasy and dance. Even there is no ecstasy, dance, it will bring ecstasy. Dancing is so nice. Chanting, dancing and take prasādam. Take rest. That's all. Not that you shall take rest like Kumbhakarṇa. (Prabhupāda laughs) Just to, I mean to say, answer the call of this deficient body, we have to take little rest. But as far as possible this should be conquered. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over eating, sleeping... Stress on saìkīrtana, and let them chant and dance as long as possible. If they can chant and dance twenty-four hours, that is very good. That should be stressed. Just see, this boy yesterday, he came, he said, "Oh, I like this saìkīrtana very much." Immediately. He was talking of so much, yoga and this and that, so many nonsense, but he came this morning. He said, "Oh, I will come again. It is very nice." Saìkīrtana has got so power. Stress on saìkīrtana, chant yourself, induce others, dance. Whole thing will be a successful. And especially outside India, these rituals and ceremonials, that will be simply artificial. They cannot take it seriously. But saìkīrtana they can take seriously. This is practical. And if you recite all the Vedic hymns throughout the whole day they will join, but they will not benefit out of it. So why should we waste. Is that all right?

 

Room Conversation                                        July 24, 1973, London                                                             351174                                                                                                                                                                   Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.

Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...

Reporter: Vaiśyas.

Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.

Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

                                                                                                                                                                        351333                                                                                                                                 Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction, that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya. So politics is the business of the kṣatriya. So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brāhmaṇa? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.

                                                                                                                                                                        351559

Prabhupāda: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Warda Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal--to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.

 

Morning Walk(2)                                   Los Angeles December 11, 1973                                                      360641

Household life or in city life we should not be extravagant, unnecessarily eating, unnecessarily enjoying. No, that is not the... One man's food, another man's poison. We must know this philosophy. (break) ...and even we..., my health is not always going on nicely. Still, why I am trying? That is my ambition. I want to begin one revolution. Their godless civilization..., against godless civilization. That is my ambition. The America will be the best person to be educated in this line and to lead, to become the leaders. They're already leader, but they must be real leader now, so that the whole world may be happy. That I can give direction. If the topmost American gentlemen come to me, I can give them direction how they can become the world leader. Actual leader. Actual leader, not bogus leader. Because God has favored them, so many things. And this movement has been started from America. I started this movement from New York. So it should be taken very seriously by the government. (break)

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                        360653

Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and you trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust. Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man..." Yes, I can trust. But simply trust in God, you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say?

Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must take this clue, that we Americans, we say "In God we trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government must come forward to patronize this. This is my proposition. So you write articles, you are theologicians. The America must rise up to the occasion. They have pledged themselves, "In God we trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust. So America, especially taken up the slogan as part of Constitution. Now there should be regular educational program, that every child, every man, every woman will trust in God. And this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So? Am I wrong in my arguments?

Devotee: No, correct.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you take it seriously, you American boys?

Prajāpati: Also in the Constitution, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a thing called separation of church and state, that they would have...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right. We want to educate, we don't want to take part in administration. But the administration should be under our guidance; they should take advice from us, how to do it. That is required. We are not going to be president. We are satisfied in our humble temple.

Karandhara: According to traditional American values, though, the government should not take instruction from the church.

Prabhupāda: That is their... But... Church means... Because they've seen church is useless.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now here is scientific church. They refuse to take advice from the church because at the present moment church is a bogus thing. So what is the use of taking advice from them?

Hṛdayānanda: That was actually... That was actually the reason they made that separation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: They became disgusted with the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. It's simply, we can say, what is called? Stereotype, the church. Just like you said they want more pay. Payment... They have no knowledge, so what is the use of taking advice from such rascals? What is the use? But here it is not like that. We know the science of God. We know who is God. It is not a vague thing. Now you try to understand. Let there be educational institution. America has got so many universities. Let there be a department. There is already a religious department. So let the students learn the science of God. We have got so many books. Why they will not? They are actually appreciating. So this should be introduced in the university, in colleges, in schools. Why they should neglect such a, such an important scientific knowledge?

Devotee (1): When we try to introduce it sometimes, they very often say that it is sectarian.

Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian?

Devotee (1): They say that it represents...

Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human beings?

Hṛdayānanda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No, no, every common man he says "I got my mathematics." Will he be accepted?

Hṛdayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: So why these things should be allowed? That is our proposition. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will he be allowed? So we have to fight, otherwise what is the meaning of preaching?

Hṛdayānanda: Fight.

Prabhupāda: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then what is the necessity of preaching?

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: And propaganda.

Hṛdayānanda: You have to fight.

Prabhupāda: You must know that they are all rascals. That I said, rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That is preaching. What do you expect that every man will immediately go and he'll agree with you? Why do you expect like that? That is foolishness.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: You must know that everybody will disagree with you, and it is your preaching work that you will make him agree with you. That is your preaching work.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda! As your example.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not expect that everyone will agree. Everybody will disagree. Just like our book. Say, four, five years ago, nobody knew these books. So there was no market. But we have created our market. That is preaching. We have created our market. Nobody was dying for want of these books. So that is preaching. Preaching does not mean everyone is ready to accept your theories. You must expect that everyone will not accept it. Now it is your power to convince him, "Yes, you must accept." That is preaching.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: They must know what is God, how to trust Him, why we shall trust God, what is the benefit. These things should be known, properly educated.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: And we have got the science. We are not speaking blindly or, what is called, sentimentally. (japa) (break)

Prajāpati: ...movement for the church today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is called the ecumenical movement. Ecumenical movement means all the different divergent groups are trying to get together to understand..., you know, make a common ground. Now we have the perfect platform...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prajāpati: ...for giving them that common ground.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your duty. You do it as theologicians. Bring them on the platform. This so-called church is going on. They're doing all sorts of sinful activities, and it is going on church and religion. Therefore the importance of Christian religion is diminishing. How they can bluff all the time? (japa)

                                                                                                                                                                        360705

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Real help for real friend is my Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He's not only my friend, He's friend of, even of the ant. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Yaśomatīnandana: (indistinct) ...when Prabhupāda didn't get help from anybody...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: ...he just got help from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the friend of everyone. We don't take His help, that is the difficulty. He says, He's guaranteed, that "If you just surrender to Me, I'll give you all protection." Such a friend who can give, there. But they'll not do that. Actually if one trusts in God, then everything is there, perfectly.

Prajāpati: So if they did trust in God, they would not have all these problems today.

Prabhupāda: No. It is factual. Just like in modern... Immediate problem is the petrol. Nobody trusts in God. The Arabians, they're thinking that this oil, "Our oil." But actually, his father has not manufactured this oil. It is God's oil. None of them believe in God, either the Arabians or the others. Therefore there is crisis. It is practical. Is the petrol manufactured by man? So why a section of man is claiming, "It is my petrol"? If somebody says, "It is my Pacific Ocean," what is this nonsense? Because they are going on under this nonsense ideas, therefore there is problem.

Devotee (1): Sometimes they claim the Pacific Ocean as their own.

Prabhupāda: Ah? Ah?

Devotee (1): Some countries claim, you know, twelve, three hundred miles of the ocean is being their ocean.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, three hundred miles, let them claim. But not the oil. (devotees chuckle) If I say "Now the sandy beach, two miles mine," you can say, but what is that talk? (laughs) But it belongs to the government. You can say... A child may come, "Oh, this is my area, you cannot come." (laughter) That is going on. But is that sanity? The father will laugh: "All right, let him, demarcation, this area." So this foolishness is going on. Our philosophy... Éśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. This is philosophy.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they won't accept it, although it is fact. Although it is fact. But they will not accept it. Therefore preaching is required, education required, to bring him into sense. This is fact. This portion of the ocean does not belong to any nation or any person; it belongs to God. This moon belongs to God, the sky belongs to God. But they're thinking, "It is mine." And therefore there is trouble. Just like government. The Senate is there, so they sit down together, and if there is any problem they discuss together to find out the solution. Similarly, they have got this United Nation. Why do they not consider, "First of all let us settle to whom this planet belongs"?

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: They're United Nation, first of all let us settle. They are fighting: "I'm Arabian," "I'm Indian," "I'm American," "I'm Englishman..." "All right, let us settle actually to whom this planet belongs." They cannot do that, because all of them are thieves. None of them will agree that it belongs to God. The real fact, that they will not agree. Then how there can be peace? Because they're all cheaters. They want to cheat God. God's property, they're claiming "ours." All thieves and rogues, so how there can be any settlement? There cannot be any settlement.

Devotee (1): If we approached them and we said something like that, they would laugh.

Prabhupāda: That's because they're rogues. Against their ideals. "Why you're laughing like fools? Does it belong to you or your father? This whole world? Why you are laughing like a fool?" You should have said like that. "You're laughing not like a gentleman; you're laughing like a fool. Can you say that it belongs to your father? Or you'll be allowed to stay here in America? After some years you'll be kicked out. Do you know where you were going? Why you are laughing like fools?" This should be the answer.

Karandhara: The Arabs, some of the Arabs, they say they believe in God, but that everyone else is...

Prabhupāda: Nobody believes in God. That is our proposition. Nobody believes... All this bogus. Now they should come to understand what is God. This, in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody believes, neither know what is God. Here we are giving the name, the address, the form, the activities, everything of God--Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let all the Arabians, all the Americans, let come to us. Those who are chief men, intelligent man, we shall convince them. That is our preaching.

Karandhara: There's one Arab leader, he goes to the temple five times a day, he doesn't eat meat, er, doesn't drink liquor or smoke or go out with women...

Prabhupāda: Yes, these are, these are prohibited in Muhammadan villages.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But still it is good. To some extent, he's advanced.

Karandhara: He doesn't allow any liquor shops or tobacco shops in this country.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's good.

Karandhara: Khadafi.

Hṛdayānanda: Which country is it?

Prabhupāda: All these things are sinful. To drink is sinful. Even among the Muhammadans. To smoke, sinful. They have got austerities. Their animal-killing is once in a year. (Hindi) Only animals should be sacrificed in worship. There are so many things. Every religion there is good thing, but then nobody follows. Simply defined, "I'm Christian," "I'm Muhammadan," "I am Hindu..." That's all. He's neither of them. He's simply animal. He's simply animal. Just like these rascal Christian. The first proposition is "Thou shalt not kill," and see they're simply killing, and they're claiming "Christians." Just see. All rascals, and they're claiming, "We're follower of Christian." (break) ...propaganda is to teach all these rascals. Therefore we say general rascals. It may be very strong... That professor was referring, "Yes, everyone is rascal." You know that professor?

Karandhara: Yes. He thought "rascals" was a bit harsh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says rascal; therefore...

Yaśomatīnandana: But he... The professor, when he left he said that "Prabhupāda is very, very gentle," he said. He's the most gentle man he's ever seen.

Devotee: Gentle like a rose, and strong like a thunderstorm. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...India. Just start this movement seriously.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Bombay is the best center.

Yaśomatīnandana: I'm being very enthused when you say these things to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great field to conquer, and you are educated and intelligent, capable. You have got qualification, you can do this very good work.

Yaśomatīnandana: We think that it may be impractical to go in the politics or like that. But then when you say so firmly, all the whole..., immediately our eyes get open, you see? "Yes, actually, this is possible."

Prabhupāda: Why not possible?

Yaśomatīnandana: What is impossible for a Kṛṣṇa's devotee?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That conviction you must have. If you are sincere to Kṛṣṇa, if you are actually serving Kṛṣṇa, where is impossible to you? Where is impossible? There's nothing impossible.

Yaśomatīnandana: Mūkhaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paìguṁ laìghayate girim.

Prabhupāda: That one of my important Godbrothers says. He's sincere. All others, they are rascals. He says that "In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. So we were thinking that this is imagination, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult would be spread all over the world, everyone will chant. So you have done it." So he's appreciating in that way. "But we are simply thinking that it is not possible, it is simply imagination. But that you have made it possible." So that is his appreciation.

                

Morning Walk(2)                                        March 14, 1974, Vrndavana                                                        365721

Prabhupāda: ...that business in your country. What is that? Topless, bottomless?

Devotee: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: No? They want. There is regular business. In India also. In the hotels there are regular business to pick up college girls and enjoyed by the guests. So many things are going on on this basis of sinful activity. All over the world. So they become polluted, all people..., population, then how they can expect good government? Some of them will take the charge of the government, and he's polluted. (pause) Indigestion. You know that? Indigestion.

Devotee: Ha.

Prabhupāda: You have not digested your food. (break) Any carpenter working in... (break) The government was pleased to reply that they're maintaining themselves by selling literature. Similarly, if it comes to the notice of the government that they're maintaining ourselves by production of food, they'll like very much. (break) In your temple.

Devotee: Feeding.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) (break)

Bhagavān: ...the society would go to the gurukula, and there it would be decided what their work would be?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all there should be an instructor on the spiritual life, then according to his position... Our spiritual life is meant, we should always remember... But for management we have to make divisions. That is...

Devotee: Actually the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided. Just like there's slight difference, those who are directly engaged in temple worship and those who are going to sell books. Apparently there's difference, but basically there is no difference. Like that. If one can sell books nicely, why he should be, I mean to say, engaged in the temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there is no difference between selling the books and temple worship. Or washing the dish. There's no difference, because it is all transcendental. Just like aìgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. Kṛṣṇa's hands and legs, there's no difference. You've read this verse?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, aìgāni yasya sakalendriya...

Prabhupāda: But still leg and hand.

Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: Kṛṣṇa says, Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: He says, "Those who repeat this message of Bhagavad-gītā, are most dear friends to me, and there's no one more dear to Me than he..."

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: Wouldn't that indicate that a preacher is higher than a worker?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is preaching, this is preaching. You help. Suppose you are preaching, and if I help you... Just like I'm preaching, you're helping. You are also preaching.

Ātreya Åṣi: Also this building is preaching.

Prabhupāda: This is also preaching. So it is not that preaching means simply talking. Preaching means everything. The construction is also preaching. The designing is also preaching. Everything is... Otherwise what is the use of spending so much money if it is not preaching?

Devotee: Jaya.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah. (break) Everything that has to do with propagating Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: ...in any way.

Prabhupāda: That is preaching. Just like... Nava-vidhā-bhakti.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

They're all perfect, but it appears śravaṇa, hearing, is different from kīrtana. Or kīrtana is different from smaraṇam or pāda-sevanam or arcanam. But they're all perfect. So one should be engaged either in śravaṇam, kīrtanam, smaraṇam--as he's fit. This is the... Suppose I cannot speak, kīrtanam, but I can hear. That is as perfect. Ah? Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. So one may argue that "Speaking is better than hearing." No. Both ways, either hearing or speaking, they're the same thing. Because it is for Kṛṣṇa. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. In our society every work is transcendental: for preaching. Every work. But one must be engaged with some work.

Haṁsadūta: That's important...

Prabhupāda: That is important. Otherwise every work is preaching. See that everyone is engaged. There was an advertisement by the railroad department, their monogram was a wheel of carriage and they have written that every employee of the railroad should see that the wheel is running on. Wheel is running on. Now suppose in the office the clerks are working, so how they will see the wheel is running on? Because in the office of railway there is some complaint, there is some claim, there so many things... But that is depending on their wheel. So they should expedite their business so that wheel may not stop, it must go on. It is very nice instruction. So the wheel is going on. Suppose some station has asked for ten wagons immediately, and that requires the sanction of the divisional superintendent. That is his office. So the clerk should help the progress that immediately the sanction is done. Then the wheel will go on. Do you understand? So everyone can help that the railway wheel is going on. Although apparently it will appear that "What this clerk has to do with the wheel going on?" Is it clear?

Bhagavān: So there's so much to do in Kṛṣṇa's service, everyone can be engaged in some...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone should know... Suppose one is engaged in cooking prasādam. You should see that nice prasādam is served to the worker, quickly, so they can take prasādam, be healthy and go on preaching. So he is helping preaching by cooking. Just like you are working and the brain is also working, "Go this side, go that side, the car is coming." Brain says, the... "Leg, come this side." Everyone is working. The leg is working, the brain is working, the hand is working, the tongue is working. But the business of the tongue and business of the leg is different. The aim being, the central point being Kṛṣṇa, to help, to serve Him, then everything is work, absolute. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand it. They think that "Kṛṣṇa is working like ordinary man. How He can become God? It is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is also māyā." Therefore we called them Māyāvādī.

Bhagavān: A leader must be very expert so that people would be happy in their engagement.

Prabhupāda: Everyone should be expert. The leaders must be expert and the worker must be expert so that they may follow the instruction of the leader. If the leader says something and the workers, "Hm, I shall consider it, later on," then how the leader will execute his leadership? Both of them should be cooperating and know that "We are all working for Kṛṣṇa." Somebody was coming back and going... Coming this side or... Our men? No.

Devotees: No. (break)

Ātreya Åṣi: ...woman.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Ātreya Åṣi: There are so many... So few compared to other religions, but we make so big propaganda always...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Åṣi: Because...

Prabhupāda: It is admitted, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement it is admitted.

Ātreya Åṣi: Because we are not lazy like Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: Yeah. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "I have become now Brahman--stop work. Eat and make your belly..." You see how Māyāvādī sannyāsī... Ah. (Prabhupāda gestures; devotees laugh) They think that "Now I have become Brahman, I have nothing to do. (Prabhupāda laughs) I have become Nārāyaṇa." "If you've got nothing to do, then why you are eating?" And for one cāpāṭi you'll find there are many Māyāvādīs. They're busy simply collecting cāpāṭis. (devotees laugh) So what is time of your starting?

 

Questions and Answers                                Hawaii, January 17, 1974                                                          363260

Guest: Is the exterior identification important?

Prabhupāda: Yes, important. Just like officially the policeman must dress, but a policeman sometimes in ordinary cloth also, that's his duty. But that is special case. But external, external dress is also required. By... In the dress of a police if he is a thief, that is very dangerous. That is very dangerous. Just like this dress of sannyāsī, saffron cloth, one will respect that "Here is a sannyāsī." But if he is a thief in a dress of a sannyāsī, that is dangerous. That is dangerous. One must dress... (end)

 

Press Conference                                         April 18, 1974, Hyderabad                                                         372589

Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical--everything is there.

                                                                                                                                                                        372590

He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā? So that we have to accept, and His instructions, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajïa. Yajïaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. In this way people can be happy.

 

So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa, and... At least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not... It is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa, they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So if you associate with sattva-guṇa, then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa, then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa, they are in knowledge.

Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. There are three guṇas, and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate. If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jïānaṁ vijïānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa. The next class, kṣatriyas, who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya, they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The class of men should be interested, produce foodgrains and give protection to the cows.

So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much.

                                                                                                                                                                        372617

But here Bhagavad-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajïa." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?

 

Morning Walk                                                   May 18, 1975, Perth                                                              393576

Prabhupāda: (taking prasādam) (indistinct) But it has got some arrangement, it does not fall down.

Amogha: Yeah, well they accept that also. They say only if there is no such arrangement, then it will fall down.

Prabhupāda: That means conditional. And who makes that condition? That means ultimately you have to accept the existence of God.

Śrutakīrti: Just like they say the moon does not go away because the earth is attracting it.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What is earth? (laughs) All bogus.

Amogha: But if we tell that that there is no law of gravity, they will say that why is it that if you throw up a ball then it comes down?

Prabhupāda: It comes down, heavy, then it comes down, that's all. (laughs)

Amogha: But that heaviness they say is gravity.

Prabhupāda: You can call anything. (laughs) But if Kṛṣṇa desires, a football may not fall. Just like so many planets, they are carried up by the air. All these planets are moving only by the air. So the heavy land, heavy cloud is carried by the air. It is a question of adjustment of air, not the law of gravity. Now the whole universal planetary system are floating and rotating round the polestar. Is it law of gravity, they are rotating? It is the arrangement of the air, by the air it is up. Just like there is dust storm, so many are floating in the air. There is no question of law of gravity; it is the air. And the who is controlling the air? That is Supreme Personality. Just like in Darwin, the motor buses were floating by the air. It was a great storm there?

Amogha: Yes, hurricane.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Hurricane?

Amogha: On Christmas day.

Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jïāna, vijïāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)?

Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah?

Prabhupāda: Ah, there is time?

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, we are leaving at twelve-thirty. So we have two hours. That is sufficient.

Prabhupāda: Hm. The world is full of rascals and fourth-class men. That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. A human being does not know God, he's no better than dog. He is dog. Who knows God? There are so many scientists, philosophers, now everywhere. And they are discussing on sex philosophy, homosex philosophy, Darwin's theory. All third class, fourth class, they are controlling. Now they are gradually coming to chaotic condition, and their problems, engage so many big, big officials how to solve. Oh, why you created problem, first of all? You third-class, fourth-class men, you have created problem, and now we are trying to make solution--another problem. And because you are the same fourth-class men, how you can make a solution? You have created the problems. The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are becoming bad to worse, and still they'll claim, "We are first class."

Amogha: They are all rascals, so the best rascal they say he is first-class. First-class rascal.

Prabhupāda: That I was explaining, big animal and small animal. Cats and dogs praising one lion.

Amogha: Hm.

Prabhupāda: A lion is also an animal. But they are thinking, "Oh, one lion." But we are thinking that it is also animal. The cats and dogs, they are thinking, "Oh, lion is so big, so powerful." But human being is thinking this is also an animal, big animal. Is it not? (laughs) Tell them. Cats and dogs may praise some another animal, tiger and... But are the tigers other than animal? He is also animal.

Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Prabhupāda: When I was saying that we are creating first-class men. So are you, are you claiming that you are first-class?

Amogha: Yes, he was asking us. Yes, he said, "Have you become?" (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What did you say?

Amogha: I said we are becoming. Yes, we can see. (offers obeisances) (end)

 

Morning Walk                                              May 19, 1975, Melbourne                                                          393621

Madhudviṣa: They take great trouble to bring trees from all over the different parts of the world to put in the botanical gardens.

Prabhupāda: Very nice gardens. Hardly there is such nice botanical gardens in the world. I have seen many botanical... Very nice. (break) This swan is black and the crow is black, but crow's place is different, their place is different, although they are birds. The crows will enjoy a filthy place where all refuses are thrown. I don't think in your country there is many crows. In India, you've seen, all nasty place, that is visited by the crows. It is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. The literature which does not describe Kṛṣṇa, that is the place for the crows. There is sex literature, they're enjoyed by the crows, and this Bhāgavatam is enjoyed by the swans. That is the difference. Crow's literature and swan's literature, paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaṁ vastu vedyam atra. Everyone in this material world, they're envious. Their business is to become envious. I am envious of you, you are envious of me. This is material world. And the paramahaṁsas, Vaiṣṇava, they're kind, they're merciful. "Ah, this fallen soul is suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa. Let us preach." That is the difference. The envious and the nonenvious. That is paramahaṁsa. Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ. They are not only not envious, but they're merciful. They'll suffer so many troubles for their preaching work, still they'll do that. Titikṣava. A preacher has to suffer so many inconvenience. You had to suffer in here?

Madhudviṣa: Where?

Prabhupāda: In Australia.

Madhudviṣa: Yes, we had some suffering.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Now you have seen that letter? We have been permitted by the federal government to sell our books in the airport.

Madhudviṣa: Yes, that is a major breakthrough.

Prabhupāda: The judge might have seen our literature, "It is such a nice literature they are selling, they must be given permission." (break) No husband, no children, one dog. (laughter) Just see. Children--contraceptive. And dog--welcome.

Woman: Good morning.

Prabhupāda: Good morning.

Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: For children--kill them. This is Kali-yuga. They are killing their own children and patting a dog. Just see how much fallen they are, and they're passing as civilized. Fourth class. Complaining of overpopulation, and the dog gives birth at a time half a dozen--there is no overpopulation, welcome; we shall maintain them. Huh? They're giving twice in a year, or once in a, even once in a year, that is no overpopulation. A man gives one or two birth, it is overpopulation. Formerly they are begetting hundred children. At that time there was no complaint of overpopulation. At that time, the description in the history is kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. On account of good rains, the earth used to produce immense necessities of life. Just like this portion is maintained with sufficient water, there is green everywhere. So if there is sufficient rain, everywhere you can do. Where is the question of overpopulation? (break) ...population you work for growing food. No. Some of them are becoming hippies, no work. And some of them are working for manufacturing tire tube, tools, that's all. Where is food? Still there is food, but they'll not work for this, for growing food.

Madhudviṣa: They have run one survey...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: ...and they have found out that the people of Australia spend so much money on feeding their pets that two hundred thousand people per year could be fed with the money that is used to feed the pets.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee: What is the population of Australia?

Madhudviṣa: Two hundred thousand people a year.

Prabhupāda: If they spend money for the poor country, they'll not do that. Sinful man is given this form of tea(?), a tree. So, but nature is so nice that even the sinful living entities can beautify. How properly utilized. But they have no fruits and flowers.

Madhudviṣa: No. Kali-yuga trees. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...are available here? No.

Devotee: Popper? Yes.

Prabhupāda: Indian store here? No.

Devotee: Indian import store?

Madhudviṣa: Yes. Indian import store they have. We have pāpadams.

Prabhupāda: Take the òāl, urad òāl, and make it powder like flour, and knead it with oil. And give masalā and then make like cāpāṭi. And when it is dry it is pāpad. It is not difficult. Add little soda-bicarb.

Madhudviṣa: Make it stiff.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Powder òāl, then I can show you how to do it.

Madhudviṣa: Powder òāl. We can put the òāl in a grinder...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Madhudviṣa: ...and grind it up.

Prabhupāda: Now it is not (indistinct). The widows, because widows, there is no widow marriage. So widows, they earn their livelihood by making pāpad and guri. They prepare at home guri, pāpad, and sell and make their livelihood.

Madhudviṣa: : You have said that you have nullified the law of gravity, but how can we explain that everything is falling down?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the green leaves not falling down--the dry leaves falling down, under certain condition. So it is not the law of gravitation. Why the green leaves does not fall down? Only the rejected things are falling. The rejected, you also throw away, so nature is throwing away. Where is the question of gravity?

Madhudviṣa: When they go up in the space ship there is such a force holding the rocket ship down, they must have...

Prabhupāda: That is everything. Everything, everything will fall down on the ground, but the controlling power is the air. If the air is adjusted, then it will not fall down.

Madhudviṣa: That's why when they go into outer space they become weightless, they can float without any airplane.

Prabhupāda: That, what they're doing (indistinct). But we see that if you can make adjustment in the air, just like we see the heavy cloud bearing many million tons of water, they do not fall down, they float. Where is the law of gravity?

Amogha: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You also give that example of those big birds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big birds, they carry elephant.

Madhudviṣa: We have not seen such a bird. (devotees laugh)

Prabhupāda: What you have seen? You have seen your father and mother, that's all. What you have seen? You are still in the womb of your mother. What you you have seen? You can simply falsely speculate, that's all. What you have seen? Are you seeing the stars now? Why you are not seeing? The stars are there, why you are not seeing?

Madhudviṣa: My eyes are not good enough.

Prabhupāda: Therefore if you have got imperfect eyes, what you can see? First of all you admit that you have got imperfect eyes. Then what you can see with your imperfect eyes? If you are a blind man, what is the use of telling, "I do not see." You are blind man, what you can see? First of all you admit that you are blind man, then talk of seeing. Therefore Vedic literature... Śāstra-cakṣus. You should see through śāstra, not your these blind eyes. Śāstra says there is Kṛṣṇa, He is doing like that. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛk... You should see like that. What you see with your eyes? Why you are so proud of your eyes? Blind eyes. That is submission. Do you see who is your father? Why do you accept by the recommendation of the mother that "Here is your father." Do you see who is your father? Then what is the use of telling, "I want to see"? What you can see? You have to take the authority of the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father," that's all. You cannot say, "I have not seen that he is my father." Can you say? So there is no value of this statement, "I do not see" or "We cannot see."

Madhudviṣa: In other books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says things and then in time you can see them, you can substantiate them. But some of the descriptions in the Bhāgavatam are so fantastic that people, I mean, its very difficult for people to even...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to believe only. You have to accept what Bhāgavata says. That is your business. Not to try to make an experiment. That is not possible. It is already experimented, and the mature knowledge is stated there. You have to accept, that's all. Śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti means Vedas. Evidence... Vedic literature there are three kinds of evidences. The most powerful evidence is śruti. If it is stated in the Vedas, that is first-class evidence. Therefore whatever we say, immediately quote some Vedic version, that is the way of understanding. Kṛṣṇa says, Vyāsadeva says, Parāśara says, that's all. We don't require much proof. This is the first-class proof, when you find the statement corroborated by the Vedas. And śruti, smṛti. Smṛti means literature written according to the Vedic version. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi. Purāṇādi is itihāsa, history. And another pramāṇa is anumāna. And anumāna means "by right person." Thinking that it may be like this, anumāna. That is called anumāna.

Madhudviṣa: Would that be like the songs written by Bhaktivinoda and things like that?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the songs written by the great ācāryas are expansions of the holy name. Could you explain that?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Madhudviṣa: The songs written by the great ācāryas are said to be expansions of the holy name.

Prabhupāda: Yes, glorify. Trees live for thousands of years, five thousand, six thousand. Fig tree and banyan tree, they do not die.

Madhudviṣa: They must be especially sinful. They get five thousand years as a tree.

Prabhupāda: No, they are most pious. Because you want to live more by science, so they are also living more years. What is the use of such living, like tree? Therefore Bhāgavata says taravo kiṁ na jīvanti. You are trying to live more years by scientific advancement, but do the trees not live for many, many years? What you will gain by that? Suppose you live for three thousand years, what you will gain if you remain ignorant? Better live for a few years and understand that this material world is worse, I have to go to the spiritual world and meet Kṛṣṇa. That knowledge will help you. You live for ten years, but get this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect life. And what is the use of living like this tree for many thousands of years without any knowledge? (break) ...cars, they have come to botanical garden? No.

Madhudviṣa: No, they go, they park their cars here and they walk into town.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Why?

Madhudviṣa: They don't like to pay money for parking space. They park out here and walk into their different office buildings. (break)

Prabhupāda: It is said (Bengali). A villager, very poor man, he says, "I am very poor man. I live on eating the grasshoppers."

Madhudviṣa: Grasshoppers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "I have no money. But when I go to pass stool, I ride on a horse." They cannot pay parking fare, but still they keep a carriage. (laughs) (Bengali). Because the villagers go to the field for passing stool, so this gariba man, this poor man, goes on a horse. Leaves can be also utilized as fire, but they do not know that. In India they collect, poor man, and use as fuel, they cook food. All this dry twigs and this, that can be used as fuel, at the same time the ground will be cleansed.

 

Morning Walk                                           February 12, 1976, Māyāpura                                                       423226

Prabhupāda: ...I am your friend, I am God, so you sleep, I shall do everything. In Russia like that. When Arjuna refused to fight He chastised him like anything. What is the anārya-juṣṭam? He's just like non-Aryans, talking foolish. People should clearly understand that we don't encourage laziness. We never encourage. According to your capacity, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, you must work. Śarīra yātrāpi te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says, "By not working, even if you cannot put on your body and soul together." Kṛṣṇa says like that.

Dayānanda: Isn't laziness one of the demonic qualities, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: It is less than demonic. Demonic qualities, they have some activity and laziness is ignorance, darkness. Therefore too much sleeping is very, very bad. That is another part of laziness. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau, one has to conquer over this sleeping and laziness. Eating, nidrā, ahāra, vihāra, sense gratification, vihāra means sense gratification. One has to minimize these things up to the point of nil, that is perfect. When there is no more sleeping, no more eating, no more mating, and no more fearing, that is perfection of spiritual life. And that is not possible, but as much as possible. (break) ...they cannot sleep more that the culture (?) is very great gain, profit.

Hṛdayānanda: Consider a rich man. A rich man can sleep, a poor man must work.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hṛdayānanda: They're always making agitation to reduce what they call the work week. Formerly they were working so many hours per week, now they want to reduce it down to forty, thirty, twenty hours per week.

Prabhupāda: So why they're inventing machine? Machine means no work.

Hṛdayānanda: They think this is progress, everyone can lie down and the machines will work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, machine, inventing machine means one machine can work for fifty men. The banks are using this, what is that, computer?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, everyone is using computers.

Prabhupāda: To save money. Machine means unemployment for many. Tractor, they're using, they're unemployment for bulls and plowmen and then they, bulls have to be killed. This is going on. Unemployment, then kill them. Vietnam, send all the men to fight and kill them. As soon as there is overpopulation, they declare war so that people may be killed.

Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes the soldiers became so disgusted that they would shoot their own officers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: But they would do it in such a way so it appeared to be accidents. Sometimes they would take little bomb and throw it into the tent of the officers and they would all be killed.

Prabhupāda: What was the reason?

Hṛdayānanda: Well, because the officers, they were not qualified. They were simply foolish. They were directing them in such a way that they were all in danger.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hṛdayānanda: And they could not understand why they were there. It was a foreign... They were used to America and so they had to go to the jungle but they were, they could not see the point of fighting...

Prabhupāda: Mm. (indistinct)

Hṛdayānanda: So many times they would become so disgusted they would simply kill their own officers, shoot them or throw a bomb. Also in Vietnam, the majority of the soldiers were fighting intoxicated, marijuana and different drugs.

Dayānanda: Also I think people have no respect for authority any more.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dayānanda: There's... All over the world people are not respecting any kind of authorities.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dayānanda: There are so many false...

Prabhupāda: Especially the students. That means chaotic condition. (break) ...type of civilization, this material world.

Dayānanda: Tagore (?) is so nice that your divine grace was presenting the perfect authority, Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And one who follows His instruction, he also perfect. That we are pushing (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be all right. Everyone is fallen, I asked this question to Kotofsky. "Sir, you have got a leader, we have got a leader, so where is the difference?" And then I said, "Only you have got a fool leader, we have got intelligent leader." Otherwise you cannot avoid leadership, authority. That is not possible.

 

Room Conversation(3)                              June 10, 1976,  Los Angeles                                                          435933

"O great one, O Supreme Lord, because of combination with pleasing and displeasing circumstances and because of separation from them, one is placed in a most regrettable position, within heavenly or hellish planets, as if burning in a fire of lamentation. Although there are many remedies by which to get out of miserable life, any such remedies in the material world are more miserable than the miseries themselves."

Prabhupāda: Just see (laughs). You want to mitigate some misery, and the process is still more miserable. Is it not?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are trying to solve one problem, but creating another hundreds of problems.

Bharadvāja: What are some of the examples?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bharadvāja: What is some example of that?

Prabhupāda: Just like you create a motorcar for easy transportation, and you have experience: the power problem, the accident problem. If there is no power problem, you get more petrol, and you commit more accidents. And you stop car, then you are unable to move, because you now you have created city. If you want to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles from your residence. You require doctor, but because you have now car, you have big, big roads. So your doctor, medical consultant, is living thirty miles off. So you have to ride on cars to go to the market, to go to the office, to go to the medical man. So car is required. And as soon as car is there, the accident is there, and there is, power shortage is there, you require big, big roads, so on, so on, so on.

Hari-śauri: Pollution.

Prabhupāda: So where is the solution of your problems? It has created more problems.

Kīrtanānanda: So village life is best.

Prabhupāda: That is the best life. That you develop. It will be an ideal thing. You haven't got to go office fifty miles off. Just get little vegetables and milk, bas, your problem is solved. It is practical. Why you should go fifty miles off?

Rādhā-vallabha: In New York, to go to work, they go into the subway car, and there are so many people...

Prabhupāda: That... Not only, the ferry, steamer, bus, train, subway, cars, there are so many things. I've seen it. They start for going to the office early in the morning, and they come back at eleven o'clock at night. And few hours, that is their family life. And that hours are wasted by sleeping and by sex. This is their life. And to forget all these miserable conditions, drink. This is civilization.

Hṛdayānanda: Horrible.

Rādhā-vallabha: My father used to get up very early in the morning to go to work, and he would be so tired from going to work, as soon as he got home, he would just eat and immediately fall asleep. I'd ask him why he was working so hard, he would say, "Simply to support the children." But now he has no more wife, no more children, and he's still working the same.

Prabhupāda: Horrible civilization. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rādhā-vallabha: They say they have no time.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) All right, come to New Vrindaban, we shall give you food. That they won't come.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have to work.

Devotee: They are afraid of nature.

Kīrtanānanda: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm going back tonight.

Prabhupāda: Why so soon?

Kīrtanānanda: To get ready for your coming.

Rādhā-vallabha: I think that's all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rādhā-vallabha: I think all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of is when you are coming.

Prabhupāda: I am also thinking of their fresh vegetables and fresh milk. (devotees laugh) Which is not avail...

Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came out, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came? You walked up the road. Our car, we tried to take you in the car, but it didn't work, it broke. Power wagon.

Kīrtanānanda: It got stuck.

Prabhupāda: All fresh vegetable, fresh milk, this is celestial. Who has got the opportunity in the city? Automatically. (noise like drums in background)

 

Room Conversation                                   October 31, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                       464374

Prabhupāda: ...I want to do something in India.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car, I have given money to Gargamuni...

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in (indistinct) for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know but he said. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: I don't know about in India, different thing altogether.

Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta is also a good driver.

Haṁsadūta: I am good for nothing.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no... So I want to preach little in the village. For that purpose in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi book we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city.

Devotee: Oh yes.

Haṁsadūta: For us there is no problem Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: No what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I... That, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again.

Haṁsadūta: Um hm.

Hari-śauri: Find one good camping spot.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable... Just like in Bengal they are doing. (They get) good reception. You have heard it?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, I heard.

Prabhupāda: Very good reception.

Haṁsadūta: Villagers give the best reception.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Haṁsadūta: Because they're...

Prabhupāda: Still.

Haṁsadūta: They're still faithful to culture.

Hari-śauri: Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next...

Prabhupāda: We are getting so many.

Hari-śauri: We're getting the farms but we haven't got the management so...

Prabhupāda: Management that is in your hands. You have to... Who will give you management? You have to manage local, local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: How is it possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, that is management. (long pause) Locally attracted. These Britishers came here and they introduced this zamindari system.

Haṁsadūta: The what?

Prabhupāda: Zamindari system.

Haṁsadūta: Zamindar.

Prabhupāda: Landlord.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So any third class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that you give me four annas per bigha and what ever you can collect that is your... That is the old system in India, zamindari system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease, that you give government four annas per bigha, and whatever you can collect, that is your business. So that created an aristocratic society and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers, that I am bringing cloth from Manchester and if you can sell you'll get so much commission. So without any investment...

Haṁsadūta: They were in business.

Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars, and gradually they started their factories, railways, in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity. Hindus against Muslim, Muslim... They wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here and they'll earn respect and honor (from) these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the, in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall?

Haṁsadūta: Hm.

Prabhupāda: He was a very good governor-general. Many gentlemen came, they wrote very conscientiously and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc.

Hari-śauri: Hm.

Prabhupāda: I saw in London... Near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression, Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement.

 

Room Conversation(2)                             November 3, 1976, Vṛndāvana                                                      465031

Prabhupāda: That is also nasty. Frozen means nasty. I never take frozen. In the beginning I thought, "Oh, it is very nice, you can get fresh vegetable." But they are not at all fresh.

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: All rotten, rather the same vegetable, as we have got in India practice, we dry it and keep it. That is tasteful. In season time--suppose this season there is huge quantity of vegetable--so here the system is they cut into pieces during the season and dry it in the sun and keep it. And during out of season it is soaked in water, it revives the old taste, then you can cook. (Hindi or Bengali)

Devotee (1): Tastes as though it is different. The fresh vegetable the taste is very good.

Prabhupāda: Fresh vegetable must be, but still there is some taste. But this frozen it has no taste.

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Even they have, Indians those who are fish eaters, they keep this dry fish.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, dried fish.

Prabhupāda: They--fresh fish--they smear with turmeric and salt and keep it in the sunshine and they dry it. And of course this fish it has no, what is it taste. (laughter) But they keep it. (aside) Bring me little water. (Bengali and Hindi) This I want to introduce, let them be satisfied whatever they can produce themselves locally. What is that, little cloth, little food? Any man can produce these things. There is no difficulty at all. They must agree to this simple life. Otherwise, everywhere you can produce your own food and cloth and cottage. If possible you can construct big buildings. There is no need. And they should be satisfied, happy with Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful. This I want to introduce now, anywhere. And it is practical. It is not something bogus. It is... We have already experimented. By God's grace we can produce everything from the lands, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī? You can get everything. If they are satisfied with this simple life, then they save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and happy life. In India they don't require even cottage. One katiya (?) is sufficient. Keeping in one place and lay down. Eight months, at least six months, it is very nice. At night, even in daytime it is very hot, at night it is cool. So you have got very good sleep, soothing, then you become refreshed in the morning. If you have got good sleep at night, then you become refreshed, your health is regained. Hm? If I (indistinct), take morning snāna and cāpāṭi. During very hot season they don't take even cāpāṭi. They take some fruits, guava and this... What is called that? (Hindi)

Devotee (2): That? Melon.

Prabhupāda: Melon, yes. During hot season you get watermelon, this other melon.

Hari-śauri: Honeydew melon.

Prabhupāda: Honeydew melon, oh very nice. In the upcountries still in the village during daytime they don't eat. During daytime they take some fruits and at night when it is cool, the cool ah, refreshing air, they make some cāpāṭi. One time, is it not?

Devotee (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Eh, (Hindi) In that night because in daytime it is so hot, it is embarrassing to cook and to digest also. Better take food, ah, fruit, this melon, and at night they take 3 or 4 cāpāṭis according to the... And good sleep. Very happy life it was, all over India. There was no question of poverty. People did not know what is poverty and now it is poverty. They do not get even sufficient food.

Hari-śauri: Industrialization.

Prabhupāda: Ugra-karma. I don't like industrialism.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

 

Room Conversation                                 December 10, 1976, Hyderabad                                                     467424

Prabhupāda: To attract them to really nice prasādam, palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall argue (?) also by literature produced, and they're learning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it, to give them very nice prasādam. Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth... This should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex, and meat eating. Then their life will be purified. And they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not?

                                                                                                                                                                        467456

Prabhupāda: Give them very, very first class prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They will come for the tongue.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. Today the dallers (?), they liked it very spicy.

Prabhupāda: That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I do not know what they like.

Mahāṁśa: There is a lot of sabji in the òāl also, today and it's hot. They like it.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money.

Mahāṁśa: O.K.

Prabhupāda: But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by love feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for love feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 2nd Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than 15, 20. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy...

Devotee: Stryādhīśa.

Prabhupāda: Stryādhīśa. Twenty-two cāpāṭis. (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam, nice prasādam. Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam. Engage first class cook. Spend money, don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating, and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture, in this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed."

                                                                                                                                                                        467468

Foodstuff means even one has no appetite he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food.

 

Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got that farthing, I want to spend it. Immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately 50% for printing, and 50% for spreading this.

                                                                                                                                                                        467484

One man... I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America. When they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so... Not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. What is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Women business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook, what is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children, and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byaïjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely."

rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byaïjana

parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana

Do you understand Bengali?

Mahāṁśa: No.

Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana. With great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. No need. Here is a good chance, don't spoil it. Produce food. Make profit, you spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa prasādam.

rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byaïjana

parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana

Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have and you distribute that prasādam. Why do you think like that? This prasādam, this so-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural... Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor. Everything. And if you perform yajïa, there will be rain.

                                                                                                                                                                                    467521

Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says. Very... If you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist. Then you get everything. That we want to show.

                                                                                                                                                                        467527

Prabhupāda: Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat store (?). This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat store. Take paper. Purchase store. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get and they spend ten rupees for wine, and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee, no milk. Soul killing civilization.

Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany, I know...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Everywhere. I myself when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India, or Germany, or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva-kāma-dughā. We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction? This is France, this is India, this is... Everywhere is God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals,

                                                                                                                                                                        467573

Prabhupāda: Even... Oh, yes. Very, very practic... We want some (indistinct) food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor, use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing.

Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor?

Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get...?

Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. Now if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise, it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport, and plowing.

 

Morning Walk                                          December 12, 1975, Vṛndāvana                                                     417174

Prabhupāda: This declaration of freedom is animal. Animal freedom.

Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you. They are struggling for false freedom. This is not freedom. This is becoming entangled. And when we voluntarily give up all freedom, "This is all nonsense! Kṛṣṇa, I surrender unto you." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān, then he's really wise. When he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.

Caitya-guru: Then he knows, Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how he'll surrender. He must be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is everything, so let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then he is wise. Otherwise he is an animal.

Harikeśa: A really wise person could understand that there's no choice but to surrender.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He must. He is already under the control.

Harikeśa: He's always controlled at every moment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's... He prefers to be controlled by the laws of nature instead of by Kṛṣṇa. That is his misfortune. He is controlled, but he thinks, "I am free." That is ignorance. Mūòha. Just like I am the state citizen. I am not free. I must work according to the state laws. But he (thinks), "I shall... I don't care for government." That is my foolishness. You have to care. At home I can say to my wife, "I don't care for government, I don't care for the police." But when there is crime, when the police comes, then he says "Ohh." (pulls a sad face--laughter) He can be very much proud before his wife, "I don't care for anything." But when the police comes, "What can I do?" (Hindi) There is an example that the, what is called, mūrgī? What you call? Toast? No. Host? No. What is called? Mūrgī, mūrgī? Chicken? The male, male?

Akṣayānanda: Rooster.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the, when in the morning, it is let loose, then he says, "I don't care for any hahaa, cawcaw." Then in the evening, when they are pushed into the, that what is called? Nest? "Cawcawcawcaw. Whatever you like you can do, whatever you like you can do." (laughter) This is the example. You see? When he's under the arrest, "Now sir, whatever you like, you do with me. If you like you can excuse me." (laughter) And when he's out, "I don't care for anyone." Mūrgī intelligence. Rooster intelligence. This is our proposal. "I don't care for anyone. I am God." Mūrgī logic. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ, if one is not a devotee, his only business is to remain on the mental platform and concoct things. And at the end he thinks that "I am God." Concoction. Therefore it is said in the śāstra, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā. One who is not a devotee, he has no good qualification. He is simply on the, hovering on the mental platform.

Hari-śauri: The sixteenth chapter describes it very nicely...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca, na vidur āsurāḥ. In which way we have direct out activities, in which way we shall have to stop our activities: they do not know. Āsurāḥ janā. Because they don't take direction from God. They make their own way of speculation. So therefore, they are animals, or demons. Because they do not take direction during life, therefore at the end Kṛṣṇa comes, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. All mental speculation, creation, is taken away at death. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! It is said, kṛṣṇa nama koro vai ar sabe miche palaiba patha nāi yama āche piche: take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, don't try to escape. Because behind you there is Yamaraja! (laughs) He will finish your all concoction. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end)

 

Morning Walk                                         December 14, 1975, New Delhi                                                      417219

Harikeśa: But the bird is always looking for food.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is looking, that is another thing. But food is there. He has no arrangement for making industry. (to passer-by) Hare Kṛṣṇa! He has no arrangement for making industry.

Harikeśa: Yes, that's why he always has to...

Prabhupāda: Their food is there, he is simply searching out, that's all.

Harikeśa: So if we economically develop, we don't even have to search out...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are opening factories. They are not opening factories. Nature's food is already there. And "Be satisfied, take this." That's all. That much endeavour is required. That is material world.

Harikeśa: So in other words he has to look for food, but man has to make a factory in order to look for food...

Prabhupāda: No, he hasn't got to make factory. He has got also food but he... If he does, he is claiming to be more civilized. He has complicated his activities by opening factories. That's all. He has got also food. Let everyone remain in nature's... You take fruit from the trees and drink milk, you are also sufficient. You don't require to cook even. There are fruits. Formerly all the sages they were taking fruits from the trees, and milk from the cows. That's all. They did not even produce food. Like agriculture. No. Whatever nature is supplying, that's all. But you are killing the cows, eating the meat, and producing no food and and making things, complicated. This is your civilization. (a car accelerates past)

Harikeśa: It's a lot of fun to drive fast cars and have sex and see movies and... This is fun you know. It's the only way to enjoy!

Prabhupāda: Yes. Enjoyment is there in the cats and dogs. When you enjoy sex in palace and the dog enjoys sex on the street, the value is the same. The taste does not increase or decrease. But you are thinking to enjoy sex in big palace is advancement. That is your foolishness. Actually sex enjoyment in the palace or on the street is the same. It has no difference of taste.

Harikeśa: So then we can have sex on the street.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are going to have that, next life! (laughter) Because you are desiring, you will get this life. Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante māyā... Yantrārūòhāni māyayā. Kṛṣṇa is within you. You are thinking that I will be very much happy if I enjoy sex like the dog. Kṛṣṇa notes, and next life, "My dear friend here is the body. You enter and enjoy." Éśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... He is noting down your desire. Hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. Māyayā brāhmayan sarva-bhūtāni, yantrārūòhāni māyayā. This is clearly explained. Alright, you want the enjoyment like dog, here is. Remembrance is also there. Mattaḥ smṛtir jïānam apohanaṁ ca. You wanted to enjoy sex like a dog. Now I have given you this body, now you enjoy. Everything is there, arranged.

Harikeśa: Yes, but dogs they have to lead a pretty miserable life.

Prabhupāda: But you have also, you have got, not living very happy life, this human society. There are others, even Indira Gandhi, she's always disturbed. Who is happy here? I saw personally. Oh, she is so disturbed. Everyone is unhappy. Who is happy here?

Harikeśa: I mean, you say that to anybody in America, they'll go, "I'm happy."

Prabhupāda: Everyone is unhappy, America, India, god or beast everyone is unhappy. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya, bhaya means fearfulness. That is unhappiness. Everyone is afraid what will happen next. This is unhappiness. So either you be Indira Gandhi or a street dog, that is nature's law. Nobody is happy. That they cannot understand that there is no happiness, and he's trying to make development for happiness. Actually there is no happiness. This is struggle for existence. Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati, with the mind and the senses he's trying for happiness, but there is no happiness. That is called illusion. That is called illusion. There is no happiness and he's trying to get happiness. Happiness is beyond the senses, material senses. Sukham atyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam, if you want real happiness that is transcendental happiness, not this sense happiness.

Harikeśa: But there is happiness of the senses. When you have sex life...

Prabhupāda: When... Happiness there is, not for the rascals, but for the intelligent. Happiness there is. Unless there is happiness, how we are seeking for happiness? Unless there is immortality, how we are seeking for immortality? There is. But the way in which you are seeking for these things, that is wrong. That is the whole education. Māyā muni sthitaḥ. Just like a foolish animal, he is seeking water from the desert because it appears there is water. But that is his foolishness. A human being he knows that there is no water, it is all sand. That is the difference between animal and human being. Therefore if the dog sees another, what is called? He makes a dog in the water, and he thinks another dog carrying a bread and he wants to take it away, so his bread goes away

Harikeśa: That's a perfect example.

Prabhupāda: He loses his own bread and there is no other bread. That's all. (Sanskrit) The lion he thought there is another lion within the well, and jumped over it. He lost his life, that's all. This going on. So, he's so strong, lion, it is fabulously strong, but he's animal. In spite of so much strength, he's an animal. Similarly this modern civilzation, in spite of so much so-called advancement, they are simply animals. That's all. A big animal is eulogized by another small animal, that's all. Animal is animal, big animal or small. (pointing out on the road) Just see he hasn't got master, and what is his condition?

Harikeśa: Pretty bad.

Prabhupāda: This is śūdra. If anyone depends on the master's mercy, he's a śūdra. Here in New Delhi, these big, big buildings, big, big officers, as soon as the government will fail, they will be street dogs, that's all. Now they are plundering, by official instrument. Now when the government will be finished, they will be street dog. That's all. This is your civilization. Immediately if all of a sudden there is attack in New Delhi, all the people will starve. There is no food at all, and they'll die.

Harikeśa: That's a really important point that the government takes more and more, and everybody gets poorer and poorer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The government is also poor because they do not know how to govern. Buddhi yasya balaṁ tasya. If one has got intelligence he has got strength.

Harikeśa: Change of government means getting poorer.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: A change of government...

Prabhupāda: Change of government... Just like they say, a change of theories by the rascals. Change means rascal.

Harikeśa: But as soon as a government changes...

Prabhupāda: Anything change means it is the domain of rascals, pandemonium. Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that, nāsyāṁ svatantratām arhati, women should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact. If you want to change, you suffer. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Any deviation from absolute law means immediately suffering.

Prabhupāda: Bas, immediately you have to suffer. (reads sign on building) DTS, what is this?

Haṁsadūta: German Democratic Republic. German diplomat.

Prabhupāda: German Embassy?

Tejas: This is going to be the Punjab Bhavan. For the Punjab state government.

Harikeśa: You're painting a pretty bleak picture.

Prabhupāda: Paint picture?

Harikeśa: The one you're painting of society, and the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: There's no hope.

Prabhupāda: No. Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no hope, that's a fact. There will be more chaotic condition and everyone will suffer and perish. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. This is already predicted. I am not painting. It is already there, I am simply repeating. That's all. I am not speculator.

Hari-śauri: Actually most of them are aware that they're in a very bad position. Everybody is expecting another war.

Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. This is capitol of India. This is the position. We can know, understand.

Harikeśa: The problem is in America, it all looks so nice.

Prabhupāda: That means they are not yet so poverty-stricken.

Harikeśa: You ask anyone, tell anyone this in America, they'll go, "Oh well we've had difficult times in the past, but we've always pulled out of it." Like the Depression. They always quote the Depression of the thirties. The Depression and they say then there was the war and everything became better.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the academy? Nonsense. They are spending so much money in this kala-kendra, academy, this, that. And no place for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just see. Such a cultural book of knowledge. There is no such institution, Gītā instruction, institute. No. This kala bhavan, this kendra bhavan this... They have got so many dance bhavan, and when Kṛṣṇa dances with the gopīs, "Ah, that is bad!" The rascals, they do not understand where you have got this tendency for dancing. Because it is there in Kṛṣṇa. That they do not understand. Kṛṣṇa dancing is bad, and my dancing is very good. They will put so many questions, "Why Kṛṣṇa dance with others' wives." "And why your are dancing with others wife, fall-down." Just see. Kṛṣṇa's dancing is mythology and his dancing is fact. Although His life is mythology (indistinct). (laughter) (indistinct) Rabindra Bhavan. What they are doing? Such a big house.

Devotee: Aravindra Bhavan

Prabhupāda: Hm? This is Aurobindo?

Tejas: This is Ravindra Bhavan.

Prabhupāda: What is written there? Ravindra. Ravindra's Gate. Ravindra's gate is, how to enjoy illicit sex. This is his gate. He introduced māgha-melā, inviting young boys and girls to dance together. And taking this opportunity, he was enjoying young girls. That was his purpose. They would come, the young girls would come, Ravindra (Bengali), grandfather, and he'll, "Alright you sit down on my lap." That's all. This is Ravindra Bhavan, to become debauch. And if you teach young man debauchery, he can attract millions. There is no doubt of it. The pride(?) philosophy. Hm? Debauchery. Allow sex without any discrimination. (observes passing hand drawn cart) Economic development. Where is economic development for these men? There, when there was no economic development, the same taila and poor people with black cloth was there, and now the same thing is still there, so where is development?

Tejas: It's increasing actually.

Prabhupāda: Nature's law you cannot check. It must go on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. Bhāgavata says, "Don't try to improve all these things, it is not possible. Improve your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will be benefit for your life." (sees another sign) Sangeet (indistinct). Means you can dance. And when our men dance, what do they call? Crazy, crazy. (reads signs) Śrī Rāma. Śrī Rāma for art and culture. So arrange dancing in this Sangeet dance, here. (laughter) They'll not allow? Hm?

Haṁsadūta: Their idea of dancing is different to...

Prabhupāda: No, you, you sell tickets for ten rupees, then they'll (indistinct). If you make free then they'll...

Caitya-guru: International dance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you try? Just see. I think they allow dancing by renting the halls, no? What is that?

Tejas: Which one? That Kamani Hall?

Prabhupāda: Any one. This one.

Tejas: They have performances.

Prabhupāda: But they sell tickets. So similar way, why not ours? (break) Enquire from the authority that we want to hold festival, dance and chant. And singing, don't say chant. See if you can dance, for one week. So what will be the terms. Enquire.

Tejas: The Supra House, I enquired before, so they want about five or six hundred rupees per day.

Prabhupāda: So that's alright! Five, six hundred, suppose if we continue for one week, they may reduce. Hm? Even five hundred, then we pay one week about 3,500, so why that LA... What is that?

Tejas: LIC grounds.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is 50,000, 60,000.

Tejas: There is one big Vijïāna Bhavan. Three thousand people can sit there. Should I organize like that?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tejas: For when the devotees come.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tejas: It is better than Ram līlā grounds. We'll get the educated and sophisticated people.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tejas: Not just the Old Delhi people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And...

Tejas: And we can make very good... In the newspaper, if we get, then we'll get... We can sell the tickets also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you attend all these Kala Bhavan. Utilize like that way. You will have always engagement. This our chanting, dancing, prasāda distribution. And they will pay also. We'll sell books. Why don't you take advantage of this institution? It requires organisation, that's all. Why LIC grounds, so much money? Three thousand daily and 40,000 monthly and so on.

Tejas: So much endeavor also.

Prabhupāda: And so much endeavor.

Tejas: This Vijïāna Bhavan we can get, it's very nice.

Prabhupāda: So do it! Am I right or not?

Hari-śauri: Programs like that would work very successfully in the west also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is three thousand, four thousand? You get two members and it is...

Tejas: No. People will contribute. No problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it immediately.

Tejas: Should I make that for March?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why March? Immediately! Try for immediately. Every week there must be some festival. Hm. In that way you don't require a very gigantic house. We can live anywhere, but our propagation will go on. (break) So many bhavans and so many institutions, utilise them. And there will be concession, if we take for one week, two weeks. They will give concession. Sometimes they may give free also. When they understand this is nice movement. (break)

Devotee: ...is starting to sell, to make more money. It's not very big (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: No. He has done a mistake so he wants to rectify it. He wants to bring money, (chuckles) but if the money is lost, it is lost, let him come back. What is there? A life saved is more important than save the money. So if I could know the address... (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Then I could write.

Bhāgavata: Well, we can... Revatīnandana, I think is staying in the, by Los Angeles, right near San Diego. San Diego or... I thinks it's San Diego or that other one, Laguṇa Beach.

Prabhupāda: So I wanted to write him a letter.

Bhāgavata: Revatīnandana might be able to give you the address.

Prabhupāda: (greets a man in Hindi) Jaya! Ha. Vṛndāvana hogya. No, if you know Revatīnandana's address, he can forward.

Devotee: Yes, he can forward.

Harikeśa: Śyāmasundara told me that he wanted to make millions of dollars for you so that he could...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) And I am thinking when making millions of dollars, he may not be lost. (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya! (break) ...millions of dollars, I shall do. I have got money. I want one soul saved, that is more than millions of dollars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupāda:...within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet…In India amongst the brāhmaṇas, this self cooking is very much (indistinct).

Gurudāsa: In the old system, land and jewelry was riches.

Prabhupāda: Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground?

 

 

This hot water bath I have begun in your country, otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water sunshine. Whatever little warm may become, that's all.

 

 

So in that book I have read there is a Greek word, Christo. Christo...Sometimes we don't say Kṛṣṇa, we say Kṛṣṭa.

Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṭa, yes, in Bengali particularly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Christo word means "anointed." Kṛṣṇa's face is anointed. And love also. And this Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God. So on the whole, the conclusion is Kṛṣṇa or Christo means "love of Godhead."

 

 

The first management is that each and every member in the temple is chanting sixteen rounds regularly and following the regulations, that's all. Otherwise we have no...That is our spiritual strength. That must be executed… So the president, local president, must see that the members are chanting. So this way the institution will be managed, then it will make progress. That is our spiritual strength--to observe the regulative principles and at least chant sixteen rounds. Then you do other things. This is the biggest institution of spiritual activities so everyone of us should be spiritually strong. Otherwise, superficially if we want to manage, it will not be possible…Otherwise, it will go to the category of anyābhilāṣitā, material desire—

 

That was my plan that I shall carry this baggage and give it to the Americans and they will distribute. That was my plan, therefore I came to America. So now you are so many boys, young boys, you have understood. So do it and give me relief. I remain in the background. Let me finish my Bhāgavata Purāṇa and those who are assisting in the writing, I'll be there (indistinct). That this institution, ISKCON will give to the world so many valuable jewels. There is no comparison. That you will have to see…

 

"Now I am advanced. We had bullock cart, now we have got motorcar with three hundred thousand parts. And every part will give me trouble as soon as it is (indistinct)," (chuckles) and that is advancement.

 

The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our, this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving, trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution.

 

Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was (indistinct). And when I was hungry I could take my food there, same place. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go," I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business.

Harikeśa: Were you just waiting to finish your books?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just creating the situation how I shall serve my spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Not that I was trying to directly contact Kṛṣṇa. That was not my business. This is required. If anyone wants to contact directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. [break]

 

You can criticize, if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly.

 

You have to enjoy your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection.

Make the bullock cart an international.

 

I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace.

 

And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa…So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society.

 

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field…The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct). He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: But why should one teach the world to become united with Kṛṣṇa (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: To become happy, to be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa (indistinct.)"

 

Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Is it not? So jïānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone. (Sanskrit)

 

Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.

Prabhupāda: That give your finger just to keep the (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."…Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajïa.

 

Vicious civilization. Simply increasing, increasing, increasing. And the government taking tax; therefore, he has to prepare roads. So in your country, the more the motorcar increasing, the more flying over, more bridges...

Śyāmasundara: More problems.

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. If somebody is thinking, "If I had like this, like that, like that, like that." "All right you will have all." (laughter) Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to save himself in this way, that..."Yes, all are granted," but still he had to die. All granted. So we are trying to take facilities from Kṛṣṇa beginning from "O God, give us our daily bread, then give me motorcar, then give me airplane, then give me this, give me that." "Take all, but you will never be happy unless you surrender to Me. You take all." This is going on. The modern civilization, they are wanting, "We may have this, we may have that, we may have this, we may have that." "Yes, you take all. But don't talk of happiness, please." That is the only problem.

 

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, they will say that in early history people used to live in the caves and they used to wear skins.

Prabhupāda: That is your rascal's conception. They used to live in palaces. You are rascal; you do not know the history… Our forefather used to live in palace. Sixteen thousand palaces, Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) So you rascal, you live with your own history. Why you force your rascaldom history upon us?

 

And how much intelligent from historical point of view Kṛṣṇa was. We can understand from His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is not that because we are Kṛṣṇaites we are canvassing. The whole world is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Why, unless there is intelligence? All scholars, all religionists, all philosophers, they are giving attention to Bhagavad-gītā. So how you can say Kṛṣṇa was living in the cave? Your forefather might be living in a cave, but our forefather did not live in a cave but palaces. Your forefather is a monkey, according to that history.

 

So he reported that if you keep the Indians as Indians, you will never be able to govern them, because they are superior. You make propaganda that they are inferior and they will imitate you and then you can...That they did.

 

Actually that's a very nice program. But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed--industrialization and attract the poor man and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charka.

 

 

Just like all the politicians, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their (indistinct), that's all.

 

 

So what is that progress? The caves are still there, somebody is living here. Then where is the progress? As the caves are still there and somebody is living here and skyscrapers, they are also, similarly, when you (indistinct) the cave (indistinct), there were palaces(?) but we could not see them. Both things are existing, but you studied only one side. Here is your history, see. Kṛṣṇa has sixteen thousand palaces and there was no need of light. Jewels, all jewels. Everything is existing side by side.

 

So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it.

 

 

They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master?

 

 

Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?"

 

 

 

We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person.

 

 

Don't fight amongst yourselves for petty things. Go on, advance. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better...A gṛhastha is better. Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya

[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

Preaching work is for the guru. So Kṛṣṇa...Caitanya Mahāprabhu says it doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or vānaprastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preaches, then he is guru. That's all. So we have to become like that. It doesn't matter what we are, but whether I am preaching nicely. That is required.

 

But still there is some regulative principles like sannyāsī and brahmacārī will be like this, gṛhastha will be like this. That is the external. But the main business is preaching. So you have got good opportunity, you have got good name, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is being appreciated. So live very cautiously and preach very cautiously and seriously, then in this one life you will become successful, go back to home, back to Godhead. One life. You haven't got to wait for another life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To become happy, to be happy.

To become really happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NEW ON FOLIO (NOT IN BOOKS)

N98:74910RC.VRN                                                                                                                                         257380

Prabhupāda: ...within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet.

Gurudāsa: Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā.

Prabhupāda: Long, long ago?

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And it was very nice?

Gurudāsa: It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it.

Prabhupāda: In India amongst the brāhmaṇas, this self cooking is very much (indistinct).

Gurudāsa: In the old system, land and jewelry was riches.

Prabhupāda: Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground?

 

N98: 740315RC.VRN                                                                                                                                      522317

Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him. I heard from (indistinct). So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take. Supposing some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is because...Otherwise regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country, otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water sunshine. Whatever little warm may become, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service...

 

Room Conversation                              Vṛndāvana, March 12, 1972, (new98)                                               518797

Prabhupāda: There is a book, perhaps you might have read, Aquarian Gospel. So in that book I have read there is a Greek word, Christo. Christo...Sometimes we don't say Kṛṣṇa, we say Kṛṣṭa.

Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṭa, yes, in Bengali particularly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Christo word means "anointed." Kṛṣṇa's face is anointed. And love also. And this Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God. So on the whole, the conclusion is Kṛṣṇa or Christo means "love of Godhead."

Dr. Kapoor: No, Mandakara(?) has tried to argue that the entire Kṛṣṇa religion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavata has been borrowed from the West.

Yamunā: How is this possible?

Dr. Kapoor: Eh?

Yamunā: How does he do that chronologically? How is that possible? It's impossible to do that.

Dr. Kapoor: There was some exchange, some people came from Greece here, and just...

Guru dāsa: But the Greek civilization was not developed five thousand years ago.

Yamunā: It wasn't even developed.

Dr. Kapoor: But he doesn't take it so back as five thousand years.

Guru dāsa: So anybody can say anything. (guest laughs)

Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaìkarācārya. We...Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted?

Dr. Kapoor: So he was knighted, you see, by the British government.

Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. (guest laughs) Just like Nehru bribed one Mukerjee, Rādhā-kuṇòa Mukerjee, doctor, to write book where he has supported cow slaughter.

Dr. Kapoor: He supported. Hmm, hmm.

Guru dāsa: If I was the Western government and you handed the most perfect knowledge to me, I would knight you also, in the name of myself. Certainly I would knight you.

Prabhupāda: So Rādhā-kuṇòa Mukerjee, he has supported cow slaughter. He was given a post, made a parliament member first of all. So this poor man, five hundred rupees per month, he accepted. Then he induced that "You take more money, write like this." So if you pay money...British government's whole policy was that if the Indians are kept strict Hindus, it is next to impossible to govern them. So therefore they adopted this policy. They changed the whole policy how the Hindu will think everything mentioned in the śāstra is nonsense. They have trained up, and Nehru is the first-class trainee. Everything mentioned in the śāstra, the Arya-samaj, they also wrote Saptartha (indistinct), so many. And Dr. Radhakrishnan also. All the scholars, they would never mention any śāstra more than once within one thousand years. That means...

Dr. Kapoor: Otherwise they would not be scholars.

Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise they will not be scholars.

Guru dāsa: At any rate, where it came from is...

Prabhupāda: Because according to Darwin's theory, your forefather was monkey. So their theory is that long before there were monkeys only. How such high philosophical thoughts could come?

Dr. Kapoor: It is true that in England there were only monkeys there. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: On this theory, all their philosophy is going on. So if they give credit that Indians were so high scholars and philosophers, then the whole theory is spoiled. Because brain is developing, and the background of brain was monkey. So how such philosophical highly moral scholarly work can be done? And this is going on. If Bhāgavata is accepted as we accept that five thousand years ago it was written, then their whole civilization becomes topsy-turvy.

Dr. Kapoor: About the Bhāgavata also he says that there is the mention of Buddha in Bhāgavata and many descendants of Buddha who lived...

Prabhupāda: The Buddhists, they don't accept that verse. Kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati, buddho nāmnāïjana-sutaḥ. They do not accept. About Buddha, in Hindu literature, Vedic literature, there is mention, bhaviśyati, future(?). That is insult to them. Therefore, they do not accept this verse. Neither we say Buddha is incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra. They do not accept this. They think it is insult.

Dr. Kapoor: Insulting them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Hindu gods...But in one Buddha temple, I have seen in Penang, there is Viṣṇu-mūrti. Yes, four hundred years old. That is a Buddhist temple.

Guru dāsa: Dr. Chandra has found many.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru dāsa: Dr. Chandra has found many Viṣṇu-mūrtis in Buddhist temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: Especially in Malaysia.

Prabhupāda: Malaysia.

Yamunā: Especially in Malaysia, so many.

Prabhupāda: Malaysia, I speak of Malaysia, Penang is in Malaysia. Dr. Chandra (indistinct).

Guru dāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So they worship Viṣṇu. And Buddha...Buddha-dharma is an offshoot of the Vedic religion. That is the proof, they worship Viṣṇu. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā.

Guru dāsa: But to this man, he says that's the proof that Vaiṣṇava is an offshoot of Buddhism, that Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple. He can say that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru dāsa: This Caitanya who has written this book can say that since Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple that this proves that Viṣṇu is an offshoot of Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he can say like that. But the offshoot he cannot say. Viṣṇu is long, long ago mentioned, Buddha is later. Buddha can be from Viṣṇu, but Viṣṇu cannot be from Buddha.

Guru dāsa: So how do they speak of that chronologically? They don't accept that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as five thousand years old?

Dr. Kapoor: No. [break] This bundle...

Śyāmasundara: No, those are documents.

Dr. Kapoor: Documents?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, photocopies.

Dr. Kapoor: You promised to give me a photo of Prabhupāda.

Guru dāsa: I'll give you one.

Prabhupāda: If you have got any colored photo, you can give him. So we have now increased eighty-seven.

Śyāmasundara: More, ninety-two.

Prabhupāda: Ninety-two?

Dr. Kapoor: Ah, you don't know yourself. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually Kapoorji, I do not know how things are going like this. I tell you frankly. I have no credit. But things are going on like this. It is something like--of course, I am not comparing exactly--just like Kṛṣṇa could not understand about His potency and, therefore He became Rādhārāṇī's feature to understand Himself. So...Of course, I...This is a comparison. Things are taking very wonderfully. Very wonderfully. Just see these boys and girls, how seriously they have taken.

Dr. Kapoor: Oh, yes, there is no doubt about their earnestness, and people have...This is just what strikes people. How can these people be so sincere and so earnest?

Prabhupāda: So I simply...

Dr. Kapoor: They are beating Indians. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I simply advise them that you regularly chant the sixteen rounds. Not more, you cannot make...You cannot imitate Haridāsa Öhākura. But there must be one saìkhyā. Saìkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna. They are observing that and the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. And they are following other instructions, so they are wonderfully.

Dr. Kapoor: You know Dalmiaji's daughter-in-law, the wife of Viṣṇu Hari Dalmia...

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu Hari went to see me in London, perhaps with his wife.

Dr. Kapoor: Accha. She told me, she said the movement is all right but they are so strict, such strict rules and regulations are being imposed upon these people, how long will they be able to follow them?

Prabhupāda: That is a surprise.

Dr. Kapoor: This is bound to fail, she said. I say it will succeed just because of this. (laughter) The rules and regulations imposed upon them are like strong fences put around them to keep māyā away, you see?

Yamunā: They want relgiosity watered down.

Prabhupāda: Actually, because they are following strictly, māyā cannot touch them. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim. Kṛṣṇa says vidhi. Bhakti-vidhi. Must be followed.

 

N98:720525.LA                                                                                                                                               519447

The GBC can supervise that things are going on. The first management is that each and every member in the temple is chanting sixteen rounds regularly and following the regulations, that's all. Otherwise we have no...That is our spiritual strength. That must be executed. Haridāsa Öhākura, such exalted personality, such advanced, still he is numerical counting even up to the point of his death. Therefore he was given the nāmācārya, because so rigid (indistinct). Even at the time of his death, Lord Caitanya requested, "Now you can minimize." "No sir, I cannot minimize." And what is the number? 300,000. These are the examples. (indistinct ) Sometimes...But the regulation is that if one day you cannot finish, you have to finish on the next day. But sixteen rounds is not very large number, the lowest. The lowest in India is twenty-five(?). Here sixteen rounds, twenty-five, not even twenty-five. So the president, local president, must see that the members are chanting. So this way the institution will be managed, then it will make progress. That is our spiritual strength--to observe the regulative principles and at least chant sixteen rounds. Then you do other things. This is the biggest institution of spiritual activities so everyone of us should be spiritually strong. Otherwise, superficially if we want to manage, it will not be possible. (indistinct).

Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam, favorably. Otherwise, it will go to the category of anyābhilāṣitā, material desire--jïāna, karma, yoga, (indistinct). And bhakti is so pure that it has nothing to do with material activities or speculative, or mystic yoga, it has nothing to do. Just like gopīs. Anyā... They had nothing to do with all this nonsense, karma, jïāna, yoga. They are neither yogīs, nor very learned scholar, Vedāntist, nor very good businessmen, economist, simple boys and girls. But their devotion is exalted. Because they did not know anything beyond Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is their love(?). Never mind to know that Kṛṣṇa is God or not, it doesn't matter. Then they don't, they didn't care for God also. Gopīs, when they say Nārāyaṇa, "Oh, He's Nārāyaṇa." (laughter) (indistinct) Nārāyaṇa, they have nothing to do with Him. They are searching after Kṛṣṇa and when Kṛṣṇa presented Himself as Nārāyaṇa, four-handed, they neglected. And before Rādhārāṇī, He could not remain as Nārāyaṇa. Automatically He handed (indistinct). (laughter) Hands are folded. So our idea is Vṛndāvana. So our love for Kṛṣṇa should be so strong that we don't care for anything. But for preaching if somebody challenges, yes, we are prepared to talk. That is authority. That is uttama-adhikārī. His love is Kṛṣṇa, enormous, but not sentiment. If anyone wants to talk with him, "Yes, come on," That is uttama-adhikārī, mahā-bhāgavata. So this is the position. Now something is in your hand--Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That was my plan that I shall carry this baggage and give it to the Americans and they will distribute. That was my plan, therefore I came to America. So now you are so many boys, young boys, you have understood. So do it and give me relief. I remain in the background. Let me finish my Bhāgavata Purāṇa and those who are assisting in the writing, I'll be there (indistinct). That this institution, ISKCON will give to the world so many valuable jewels. There is no comparison. That you will have to see,

 

N98: 720630MW.SD                                                                                                                                       519672

Ātreya Åṣi: Does this remind you of Vṛndāvana, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Ātreya Åṣi: Is this like Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is different. This is man-made.

Devotee (2): Is this like Dvārakā, when Krsna was living in Dvārakā, they had...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Dvārakā, yes. Vṛndāvana trees are all full of fruits and flowers. These are for fuel, these trees.

Devotee (1): For fuel.

Prabhupāda: That's all. For burning. There is no fruits and flowers. [break]

 

N98:721001MW.LA                                                                                                                                        521119

Prabhupāda: That I explained last time, that they are simply misusing their advancement, and they are satisfied when they have got a motorcar instead of bullock cart. That's all. They think, "Now I am advanced. We had bullock cart, now we have got motorcar with three hundred thousand parts. And every part will give me trouble as soon as it is (indistinct)," (chuckles) and that is advancement. As soon as one part is broken, the bullock cart is called for. They get a bullock cart to carry this motorcar.

 

N98:740206RC.VRN                                                                                                                                       523343

Prabhupāda: So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod--Indra, Candra, Varuṇa--or as human being or as animal the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is so much flood, they take the eggs on the head--you have seen the red ant?--and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their, the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws, and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas, that is there.

yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

bandhānurūpa-phala-bhājanam ātanoti

karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājāṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.54]

Indra, there is indragopam, one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragopam, insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra, everyone is bound up by his karma. It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma. It cannot be changed. So śāstra says don't try to change your karma-phala. Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic, economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances. You do not want it. You are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come to you, even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes, by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life. Because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say, "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. That is recommended. And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. The tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the, on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take...(laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate, the snake affectionate, tiger affectionate, man is affectionate. That is given; otherwise who will take care?

So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection, kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei, but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru, then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but kṛṣṇa-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇòa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti...Because Kṛṣṇa, guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. Kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei.

So actually, that is the fact, and I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Swami. Śrīdhara Swami was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa. So he was contemplating that "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa, he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Mother gave birth to a child this morning, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Swami thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this or that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is taking care of everyone.

So destiny is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27], nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his time is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra. It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila. So it is recommended in the human form of life, first of all training as a brahmacārī, then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī, remain as brahmacārī, and twenty-five years to remain as gṛhastha, family man, and twenty-five years as vānaprastha and twenty-five years as sannyāsa. This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means vānaprastha is the prepāration for sannyāsa, and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances you have fallen into the material condition, but if you take "This is all-in-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra. It is circumstances. We have fallen into, under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our, this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving, trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, païcāś ordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. [break]

 

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Prabhupāda: ...by enjoying this morning fresh air.

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you take bath in the Yamunā, you will get double energy. These are nature's gifts. And then we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. To live a spiritual life (is) very easy. [break]

 

Prabhupāda: ...our gṛhastha householders, how they are rising early, taking bath in Yamunā, coming to the temple.

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is Vedic culture. [break] ...of eating. Western culture means: early in the morning tea. First of all tea, and, what is called?

Devotee: Coffee.

Prabhupāda: Coffee, tea, and so many other things.

Devotee: Oh, toast. Toast.

Prabhupāda: Toast. And they will, the (indistinct) will be stopped. As soon as the belly is loaded...But they are accustomed.

                                                                                                                                                                        524146

Prabhupāda: Samaḥ damaḥ titikṣavaḥ ārjavaṁ jïānaṁ vijïānam. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā, you are publishing for selling. It will be read by others. We are simply to make money? These are in the Bhagavad-gītā. Don't you read it?

Devotee: Yes I read it. The qualities of a brāhmaṇa is given, along with the qualities of all the other varṇas.

Prabhupāda: We have..., taking sacred thread has qualities less than śūdra. Camaras, cobblers. Camara means expert in skin. I am white, I am black, I am this, I am that. That is camara. Expert in skin. [break]

 

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Harikeśa: ...communication, the only way of talking to the spiritual master to communicate is verbal talking, the only way in which one can communicate with his spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: No, there are more.... [break] (?) ...instruction of spiritual master, that is actually communicating.

Devotee: Hm. [break]

Harikeśa: ...which I've always been afraid to ask, because I don't know if it's proper, but you being the external manifestation of Supersoul, if we are having questions, doubts, when, in your absence, if we are receiving indications, is there any possible way that someone who is so conditioned can have any understanding of proper action in your absence? In other words, if I am in your absence and I am in great doubt, and I am praying to Supersoul to please save me somehow, if I receive some action which I must do or some course of action becomes obvious, should I trust that, considering that you're communicating with me, or...?

Prabhupāda: That depends on purity. If one has become pure, without any material desire, then that is possible. But if there is some material desire, we cannot expect direct communication.

Harikeśa: So I have much material desire.

Prabhupāda: I do not say you or he. This is the process. This is the process.

Harikeśa: But in the meantime...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: ...until we have reached the pure state...

Prabhupāda: In the meantime it is not possible...

Harikeśa: Not possible.

Prabhupāda: ...directly.

Harikeśa: So we must communicate with you verbally or through letters.

Prabhupāda: Not with spiritual master here. You cannot concoct, "Now I am getting directly." No.

Harikeśa: So the nature of the communication with the spiritual master in our state is only through...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual master...Kṛṣṇa is also spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa sends spiritual master, His representative, as you can appreciate, externally, directly. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is already spiritual master. He could give you instruction from the very beginning. But why He is sending His representative? What is the use?

Harikeśa: We're not able to...

Prabhupāda: Ah, because unless we are completely purified, Kṛṣṇa will, does not talk directly. Therefore you have to understand Kṛṣṇa through the spiritual master.

Harikeśa: So when we are having doubts, the only possible way, no matter what the indications are, are simply follow your instructions in all circumstances.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: Right. [break]

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wanted instruction of guru, not directly.

Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa's...

Prabhupāda: That, that I was explaining in the morning.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya-guru. One has to take the order of Kṛṣṇa through the media, via media of spiritual master.

Harikeśa: So all of my activities, unless they are directly following your order, are more or less a concoction of my mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...office, you cannot contact the proprietor directly. There are subordinate officers. Through them you have to take the proprietor's help. The office master is there. You have to satisfy the office master. You cannot directly approach the proprietor. If you satisfy the office master, then your promotion and other things is all right. But if you want to...I have got practical experience. One of my friend, he was working in office. So the proprietor was there and many other employees were there. So that my friend, he suggested something to the proprietor, and the proprietor immediately dismissed him: "Oh, this man want to suggest me. Dismiss immediately. Give him his pay he will require." In that I have got practical experience. He later on became so sorry. Now it is the process. So this is practical. We should not try to approach directly Kṛṣṇa. That is not the right way. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: "I am the servant of the servant of." So you have to serve your immediate master, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the Supreme Lord. If you want to jump over the original master, that is not good. Then you will be dismissed like, like my friend.

Harikeśa: Associating with you is so wonderful, and yet...

Prabhupāda: Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was (indistinct). And when I was hungry I could take my food there, same place. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go," I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business.

Harikeśa: Were you just waiting to finish your books?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just creating the situation how I shall serve my spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Not that I was trying to directly contact Kṛṣṇa. That was not my business. This is required. If anyone wants to contact directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. [break]

Guru dāsa: If there is a devotees who are not yet purified, if the devotee is not yet purified, why is the temple president a representative of you? If we are not at the purified stage, then why is the temple president a representative of yourself?

Prabhupāda: To carry his order. That is purification. If you create your own atmosphere, then you become impure. If you simply carry out the order of your spiritual master, then you will be benefited. If you do your own business, that is not good. You can not do anything which is not ordered by your spiritual master. Of course, everyone should have sense. It is not that we are dull, stone. Unless it is moved, it cannot...You have got moving power. But the basic issue should be to carry out the orders of his spiritual master. That is your president. Otherwise you are not.

Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience of someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience, someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.

Prabhupāda: That you have not to judge.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: You are not to judge. You should be, you should know that this man is appointed, and he gets here by spiritual process. I must follow. You cannot judge him.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is not your business, judging.

Harikeśa: Then we simply wait for further instructions from you and keep....

Prabhupāda: No further instructions.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: So long he is president you must follow him. If he is wrong, that will be corrected by the spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Right.

Prabhupāda: You cannot correct him. Otherwise obedience is the first discipline. If you do not obey the representative, authority, then there cannot be any discipline. Then everything will be topsy-turvy.

Harikeśa: You would rather have us follow the temple president...

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Harikeśa: ...than to...

Prabhupāda: If he is wrong, that cannot...He will come out.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: So the steps will be taken by the spiritual master. You cannot, do not try to rectify.

Harikeśa: Our advancement is the same?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Our advancement...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: ...is going on.

Prabhupāda: You follow, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the servants of the servant of, then this is our.

Guru dāsa: That's the consideration. Advancement is (indistinct). [break]

Harikeśa: I know I am making mistakes.

Prabhupāda: Why do you preach?

Harikeśa: That's my question.

Prabhupāda: Stop preaching.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: If you know your mistakes and you're preaching, why this nonsense preaching?

Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. (indistinct) We are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi. He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one, that "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you, (indistinct), five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paise even, and I deliver it, that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver this amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection.

Harikeśa: Sometimes, due to my conditioning, I cannot exactly understand what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you cannot understand what I am saying, then you should ask repeat. Try to understand (indistinct), that "I cannot understand this, and explain." Put it to the immediate president or any Godbrother. If he still, if he cannot explain, if he feels unable, he can inquire to me. In this way.

Harikeśa: What if I don't know, I haven't understood? What if I think I have understood but I have actually not?

Prabhupāda: There are many things like that. So you should try to understand it fully. Why should you understand it haphazardly? You must try to understand fully. [break]

Harikeśa: ...position to criticize his Godbrothers, no matter what?

Prabhupāda: You can criticize, if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly. [break]

Devotee: ...instructions rather than our sense gratification? [break]

Prabhupāda: It is not right that he says that. Sense gratification is wrong. You cannot gratify your senses. You have to enjoy your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is our only business. [break]

 

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Yogeśvara: So how would we define the word "responsibility" in Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life, realize God, this is wanted. Otherwise you are finished. Three words. You have got this human form of life, your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility. That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice as a gṛhastha. A nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar--everything first class. He left everything, just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm [SB 11.5.34], He gave up a kingdom, a fortune, which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, (indistinct). Tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ dharmiṣṭha ārya [SB 11.5.34], just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic culture. Be careful, somebody may not (indistinct). There is enough water? No.

Devotee (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hm? Very deep?

Devotee (1): Not so much.

Prabhupāda: When you asked me, what is that, definition of responsibility? Do you understand what is your responsibility?

Yogeśvara: We have this human life, we must realize God.

Prabhupāda: These three words. Let the rascals understand this. We speak the whole responsibility in three words. Is it complete or not?

                                                                                                                                                                        525179

Prabhupāda: So we have to abide by their sentiment? Because they are rascals, we have to become rascal? Even if you take so-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving., Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi, they took responsibility but they were driven away. What can you do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then what is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman, you have taken responsibility, but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executor? The Napoleon was given horse urine, you know, by the Britishers.

Devotee (2): To drink.

Prabhupāda: Yes, at the last stage. When he was asking for water, they have given horse urine. He died like that. [break] Now he has gone to hell, America is there. Just see. Just see the position of regency. The Nixon, when he was in the office, oh, he was a big man, he was a responsible man. Now he is kicked out, he is begging, and America is going on. Where is the need of this responsibility? For several months he was asked that "You give up your responsibility." The rascal will not do. "No, without me, America will go to hell." Just see. This is responsibility.

 

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Yogeśvara (translating): This lady asks when one is too old and with too many responsibilities, what can one do?

Prabhupāda: There is no responsibilities, all false, māyā. Everyone is maintained by God. It is our false conception that "I am giving protection to anybody." That is false. Just like a man is diseased and we are giving help, medical help, first-class physician, first-class medicine, still he dies. So if God desires that this man must die now, your medical help or physician's help will not act. And if God desires that this man must live, then even without your medical help and physician, he will live. Then where is your responsibility?

Woman: Are you against medical help? I mean, you want just to let Kṛṣṇa do His way and not let the doctors help at all? I mean, don't go a doctor, just rely on Kṛṣṇa to help you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help you. It is Kṛṣṇa's help that will be counted, not your help or my help. Therefore, it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jïātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

Yogeśvara:

bhoktāraṁ yajïa-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jïātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

(reads French Translation) So here in this verse that Śrīla Prabhupāda quotes, Kṛṣṇa says, "Knowing Me to be the ultimate goal of all sacrifices and all austerities, the Lord of all planets and of all demigods, the friend and well-wisher of all living beings, the sage finds relief from all material miseries."

Prabhupāda: So long I think that I am the friend or father of my children, I will have to give..., help them, so I am thinking falsely responsible. Actually I cannot do anything. Therefore, the so-called responsibility is māyā. My real responsibility is how to realize God. That is my real. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says openly, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam. (aside:) Find out.

Yogeśvara:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

[Bg. 18.66]

(reads French Translation) So here in this verse, sixty-sixth verse, Eighteenth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says "Give up all other forms of religion and simply surrender unto Me. I will protect you from all sinful reaction. Therefore, you have nothing to fear."

Prabhupāda: So we have no responsibility. It is false, māyā. Our only responsibility is how to become obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. So that is only responsibility, one responsibility. Just like the political parties, they are advertising, different political party, "I am your friend. Give me vote." How he can be friend? Just like in America, the Nixon took vote, he was advertising "America requires Nixon." I have seen that advertised when he was being elected. But after some time, the people found that he is not required, "Get out." So nobody can become, because everyone is imperfect. How one can become friend or responsible for another person? Just like in your country, in Europe and America, so many hippies are there. Their parents are responsible, rich men, able men, but why they have become hippies? Is it not a fact? The father does not want that his son should become a hippie, but still he is becoming hippie. Where is his responsibility? You cannot give protection to your son. In spite of your desire, you are disappointed. So where is your responsibility? Who can answer? Where is your responsibility? You don't really like that your son should become a hippie, but you cannot protect him.

Yogeśvara (translating): He says because we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no God consciousness, therefore we are responsible for not having been able to save them.

Prabhupāda: That is false. That I am saying. This is false responsibility. Actually you cannot become responsible. You have no power. Everyone is under the laws of nature. Just like some birds flying in the sky. The father, mother, and children, but nobody is responsible for anyone. When there is danger in the sky, you cannot give protection. Suppose one bird is hit, he is falling. The father, mother, and others, they cannot give any protection. He has to become responsible for himself. Just like the aeroplane. When the one plane is in danger, no other plane come and help it. Even if you see that the other plane is flying a few yards and if it is in fire, you cannot help. There is one nice story that one hunter was hunting birds and he spread his network. So when the children of the parent birds, they become victimized by the network. So when the parents came, they saw, "Oh, my children have been caught up by the net of the hunter." So mother became very overwhelmed. She went to rescue them and she also become victimized. Then the father was intelligent, he saw that "My children, my wife, they all have been victimized, and if I foolishly go to save them, then I will be also victimized. Let me go this way." Take sannyāsa and go. No responsibility. It is not possible when everyone is captured by the laws of nature. How you can help and what is your responsibility? So this is called māyā. The children are thinking that "My father and mother will give me protection," and the father and mother is thinking that "There is my responsibility." This is called māyā. With this false responsibility, they are packed up in a home. But when death comes, nobody can help. Nobody. This is happening every day, every moment, and still we are falsely thinking I am responsible. So what is the value of your responsibility? If you cannot give protection, then what is the value of your responsibility? There is no responsibility. The only responsibility is that I have got this human form of life. Even in this life I do not realize God, then I remain cats and dogs, that's all. This is the only responsibility. If you miss this opportunity, then I do not know what I am going to become in my next life. So gaining or losing this opportunity, that is my responsibility. If I am not responsible...[break]

But if the head, king, or president excuses him, he can save. So nobody in this material world can transcend or overcome the laws of material nature. But if one is devotee, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he can. This is the sum and substance. Therefore, we have no responsibility. If we have touched fire, then it must burn. So whatever we may be, very big man, we cannot violate the laws of nature. Tit for tat we accept. So those who are violating laws of material nature, they suffer continuously. But when he takes to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet shelter, sincerely surrendering, then he can be saved. Otherwise not. So everyone should become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he should try to save his relatives, friends, husband, wife, children from these clutches of laws of material nature by educating him to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only responsibility. That is intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu kaścit me priya-kṛttamaḥ. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu, find out.

Yogeśvara: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu...[Bg. 18.69].

Prabhupāda: Find out.

Yogeśvara:

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

[Bg. 18.69]

(reads French Translation)

Prabhupāda: So anyone who is trying to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness he is very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Because that is the real welfare work. All bogus. That is a fact. Everyone is under the laws of material nature. How you can do benefit to him? It is very powerful. The same example, the man is condemned by law to be hanged, you cannot save him however rich man you may be. It is not possible. But the state executive head can excuse. Similarly, you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa's order. So if you want to help your relatives, your friends, your..., then you must become Kṛṣṇa conscious and make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only way. This is the only responsibility. There is no other responsibility. And to serve this responsibility you can do everything. To make a person Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can give him help, you can give him education, you can give him money, you can..., to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. Not for sense gratification. Then it will be useless. He is going hell, you are going hell, that's all. That's all. All other bogus. (end)

 

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Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Make the bullock cart an international. They'll be surprised. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. We must be always convinced that if we simply take up the knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa, then you are perfect. That's all. If little success is there for me than other swamis and yogis, it is due to my conviction on this point. I never compromised with anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Did you mark it or not?

 

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Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya. (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi.

Dr. Singh: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Your generation are kṣatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā [Bg. 9.33]. And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. (Hindi?) We have lost our kṣatriyas, we have lost our...

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Dr. Singh: And also the...

Prabhupāda: And the brāhmaṇas the head.

Dr. Singh: But in the Upaniṣads, as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember?

Indian man: Fourth Chapter of Gītā (indistinct). Fourth Chapter of Gītā (indistinct). The knowledge is being handed over.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Handed down.

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respects.

Dr. Singh: Sretaketu(?) also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.

Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine.

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13].

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas--sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ(?).

Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ(?) platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītya etān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division--brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇòāla.

Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have..., for example, he's got to have his..., he's got to have knowledge of the dharma. He's got to have the capacity to act...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: ...of the kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and (indistinct), for example.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupāda: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society...Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions--the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the leg, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection.

That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham, "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.

Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūòha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So he remained a kṣatriya. But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si. So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by...

Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. So we are parts and...If we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.

Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.

Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body...Suppose I want to scratch here, a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.

Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swamiji, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?

Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take..., just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.

Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the definition of bhakti. Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ, that is bhakti. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king, if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he has to have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?

Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification...Love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly in the same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam: [Cc. Madhya 19.170] when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated: "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170], that is mukti. "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) śivo 'ham, śivo....

Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, then what is my duty? This perception that I am Śiva or Maìgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? I am working now with the bodily concept of life: "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this nor that, I am śivo 'ham, or brahmāsmi, or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your pure. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti. So, therefore, bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāìkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct). He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there

Prabhupada: No, not so.

Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Singh: If you read (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇòavas after many millions of years passed.

Dr. Singh: There's only two recorded wars.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It was recorded. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is sometimes fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world...Because India, or Bhāratavarṣa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. This planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛtavarṣa. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata...You know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this (indistinct). Then gradually...Why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, ""Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he began, "With this sword I shall kill you."

So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā. Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Another in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā

ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ

ye 'nye ca pāpā (yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ)

śudhyanti tasmai prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ

We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore, we created all these things. Whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he can come to Me." That is now the duty of those who are elevated as brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya, to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that we did not do. We simply hated. When, during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the (indistinct) and put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Now whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only...

Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world?

Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united?

Dr. Singh: But why should one teach the world to become united with Kṛṣṇa (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: To become happy, to be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa (indistinct.)"

Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.

Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?

Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first (indistinct), so what is the first priority?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Singh: First priority is to try...(break)...function.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.

Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swamiji, about the unification of the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy. Happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brāhmaṇa class, you say intelligent class. Do you agree that in the world there is an intelligent class of men?

Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working.

Dr. Singh: They can be very good worker.

Prabhupāda: When your brain...Brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.

Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.

Dr. Singh: They can fight also.

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jïānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Is it not? So jïānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone. (Sanskrit)

                                                                                                                                                                        518424

Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru- dakṣiṇā. Whatever he wants, you must give.

Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.

Prabhupāda: That give your finger just to keep the (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."

Dr. Singh: So therefore he...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajïa.

Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of Viśvadeva(?), the śūdras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child, you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know.

 

N98:720402RC.SYD                                                                                                                                        518975

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Today the superior training and intelligence. No so-called gentleman will hear. (indistinct) attention continually. Nobody will hear. They come and hear, they go on. But they were hearing very seriously. Was it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Questions were intelligent. So all these frustrated boys and girls in the Western world, they are all good candidate. You have to organize to give them; they are searching after.

Śyāmasundara: It seems like that it's the nature of all living entities to be mad after something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Love. That I explained--love. We have got our love in store. But instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, we have distributed the love in so many ways, and frustrated. Love is there in store. That is reserved for Kṛṣṇa. And we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa, that I explained. Why I am loving this body and this apartment? Ultimately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. But that you do not know. You are actually trying to love Kṛṣṇa. But because nobody is giving him Kṛṣṇa, he's crying.

Śyāmasundara: That was the name of Allen Ginsberg's first book, Howl.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: Howl.

Prabhupāda: Howa?

Śyāmasundara: Howl. That means it was a protest, a howling, "You have not given us the right information," to his elders. "Now what do we do? Simply howl." That was the introduction for our generation, and we all listened to that, read that, the howl protest.

Prabhupāda: He is also searching after; therefore he comes. Whenever he finds opportunity, he comes to me. He's searching after Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He gets so many bogus ideas. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) But still he's attached to us.

Śyāmasundara: He embraces you when you meet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He likes me. (laughter) Simply his only objection is that I am very conservative. He said, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I forbid so many things. He cannot. Otherwise he would have joined me, but he cannot.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: He knows that "Unless I give up all these bad habits, Swami will not accept me."

Devotee (1): He is a very enthusiastic chanter.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Oh, we were in this chapel chanting.

Prabhupāda: He was there?

Devotee (1): Yes, he was there. He came down on stage, jumping up and down, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then he cooked prasādam. He was very enthusiastic.

Prabhupāda: No, he has promised to me that "Wherever I shall go, I shall chant." That he has promised.

Śyāmasundara: He's going to be...He gave me his address in California, so he'll be living there for some time.

Prabhupāda: I asked him that if he was there he can see me again. Our mission is very nice. We want to see everyone happy. We don't want anything from anyone. We don't say that "You give me fee, then I give you some mantra." No, we don't say like that. Our instruction is free. I want to see that they are doing it and they are happy, that's all. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo, saìge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā cāi, this Bhaktivinoda's, "You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come with me. This much I want. I don't want anything else."

Śyāmasundara: So one who is mad after something else material, mad after this or that...

Prabhupāda: It is perverted.

Śyāmasundara: And he must transfer his love..., madness to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That madness should be for Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So how is that madness transferred?

Prabhupāda: By this devotional service. You practice it to love Kṛṣṇa. And then when you come to the actual stage, you will be mad after Kṛṣṇa. This is the process to bring to you..., bring you to the platform.

Śyāmasundara: No other way can replace...

Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] by devotional service. Neither by jïāna, yoga, karma, no, that will not touch. You cannot become mad after Kṛṣṇa by any means except by this devotional service. Therefore, we are so much conservative. Because if we are actually after Kṛṣṇa, then we must accept the real method.

Devotee (2): Though we must be eager for devotional service, we still have to have this patience and determination, then create some...

Prabhupāda: Yes, because māyā is strong, sometimes you are deviated. Therefore we have to be determined.

Śyāmasundara: It seems only natural, gradually if you are all the time serving, serving, serving Kṛṣṇa, eventually...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the only way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. By your service, Kṛṣṇa will automatically reveal Himself. He wants service; therefore He said, "Surrender unto Me." "Surrender unto Me," not stop all activities. "Surrender unto Me." What He will say, you do. That is surrender. Just like Arjuna surrendered. So surrender means that he had to fight. That is surrender. Not that "I surrender, I do nothing." That is not surrender. That is only negation. Doing nothing of the material things, that is negation. Take the positive view. That is doing always for Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Eventually your mind will become so occupied, and every field of activity will become so occupied, that you will forget everything else, eventually.

Prabhupāda:

Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

"One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service." Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.111.1.11]. Zero, all everything zero, make it zero. Śūnyam. Jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Madhya 19.167]. Jïāna-karma means there is some aspiration of profit. Karmīs, they are trying to be elevated in the higher planetary system. And jïānīs, they are wanting to become one with the Supreme. So that is also demand. That means there is some desire. It is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Madhya 19.167]. But one has to become anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam--any desire, make it zero. Then what to do, I shall become dull and dumb? No. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ [Madhya 19.167], you have to work according..., favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires. That's it. That is wanted, that is bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu, that is wanted. You have to simply abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa or His representative, that's all. That is required.

Śyāmasundara: Then you become automatically mad after Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you practice, the more you become mad.

Devotee (2): As in that verse, "Thus by the higher self conquer the lower...Thus with the higher self conquer the lower self and curb the insatiable enemy known as lust."

Prabhupāda: Higher self? I don't follow.

Devotee (2): That verse in the Gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, this is Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. You will find in Nectar of Devotion.

Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

"One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service." Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.111.1.11]. You have read this Nectar of Devotion?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You will find there. Where is Nectar of Devotion? Bring it.

Śyāmasundara: So our business, our main business really is engaging people in serving Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Somehow or other engage. If you cannot engage him, then let him simply eat. Engage him in eating, that's all. We are actually doing in the beginning: "Please come here and take some prasadam and go home." Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jïāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

                                                                                                                                                                        519121

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why does He say, "You give up all this nonsense, you surrender"? He does not approve, but he wanted to dance, "All right, you take the facility, dance." He doesn't like that you should dance like that, but he wants. "All right, you dance. You can take the facility, dance." Just like my Guru Mahārāja, Tīrtha Mahārāja wanted his property. "All right, take this property." But what he is doing?

Śyāmasundara: Sitting there in his wheelchair.

Prabhupāda: "You want this property, take property. All right." He's kind, "All right, this man gave me some service, he wants this property. All right, take this property." But what he has gained?

Śyāmasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I never wanted his property. I simply desired that such a sublime message, like my poetry, that...

Śyāmasundara: First poem upon arriving.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Miracle done. I wanted, "Oh, there is a miracle. If I try to preach this miracle in the world." So he has given me the facility. I never wanted the Gauòīya Maṭha buildings.

Śyāmasundara: So because you desired in a certain way, He provided that facility also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I desired that such a wonderful message, why not preach?

Devotee (3): And you got buildings also.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (3): You got buildings...

Prabhupāda: Building automatically comes. But rascal fools, they do not understand this. That is mentioned in the...In bhakti, other success follows. Just like when the queen goes, there are many maidservants catching the..., what is called?

Śyāmasundara: Train.

Prabhupāda: Train, yes. They follow. So if bhakti follows, then all other things follows. Bilvamaìgala Öhākura also says that muktiḥ mukulitāìjali sevate asmān, bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād. "If there is pure devotion for You, then muktiḥ mukulitāìjali, mukti is standing, 'My dear sir, what can I do for you?' Folded hands." Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. "And the material happiness, they are simply waiting." The servant waits, "Yes, sir, what do you want?" Simply one has to develop.

bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā bhagavan yadi syād

daivena naḥ phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ

muktiḥ (svayaṁ) mukulitāïjali sevate 'smān

dharmārtha-kāma-(gatayaḥ) samaya-pratīkṣāḥ

There is definition given, bhaktis sthiratarā, "Unflinching devotional service, if there is, then by Your will, anyone can see," divya-kiśora mūrtiḥ, "can see Me." And so far other things are concerned, mukti and bhukti, they are simply waiting.

Śyāmasundara: The whole secret of life has been lost when this civilization was lost. Every knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you try to give them, these foolish men. They are after dharma artha kāma mokṣa. Therefore, Bhāgavata begins, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] all this cheating, rascaldom, is thrown away. Dharma artha kāma mokṣa. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. Śrīdhara Swami explains, kaitavaḥ, these are all cheating. The so-called religion, so-called economic development, so-called sense gratification, so-called liberation, they're all cheating.

Śyāmasundara: Because they promise something they don't deliver?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Even if you get it, what do you get? You go to...Supposed you go to church: "God, give us our daily bread." God is giving, then what do you get? Bread is given to the animals also. Why you are going to the church? That is the Communist say, that "We shall give you bread. Why you waste your time with so-called religions?" The politician says that "You want to be happy, there is technology. Why you are going to pray to God? This is all nonsense." They are thinking that. But prayer is not meant for that purpose. Prayer...Just like we are praying, but our prayer is "Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service," Hare Kṛṣṇa. "O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." This is our prayer. We are not going to prayer, "O God, give us our daily bread." And if you get bread, then what do you gain?

Śyāmasundara: We've all experienced that. We've had so much bread. What did we get?

Prabhupāda: That's it. Even you get bread, what do you get? Bread is already given even to the animals. That they do not know. Therefore, they take religion for material gain. Dharma artha. And Bhāgavata says, arthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. When you get money, it is not for satisfaction of your senses. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir [SB 1.2.10]. And when it is the question of kāma, desire, that does not mean sense gratification. Lābho jīveta yāvatā. Simply you have to accept thing for living. It is not that you shall not eat. You eat, live. Then what for living? Jīvasya tattva-jijïāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Your working so hard is not that to develop your material condition of life. You live peacefully without any disturbance of hunger, but your life should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, asking about Kṛṣṇa. That is life. So we don't want to stop all the activities. But they are busy always, they have no time for...Ask all these men, they are obstructing: "What these people are doing?" There is no end of their sense gratification. First of all get one motorcar is required, "All right." As soon as he gets money, "I'll purchase another one for my son, another for my daughter, another for my wife." Going on, going on. And he has to maintain four motorcars, then work hard, hard, hard. So indriya-prītiḥ: "Oh, I have got a car, why not my son?"

Śyāmasundara: Boy, it's vicious.

Prabhupāda: Vicious civilization. Simply increasing, increasing, increasing. And the government taking tax; therefore, he has to prepare roads. So in your country, the more the motorcar increasing, the more flying over, more bridges...

Śyāmasundara: More problems.

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. If somebody is thinking, "If I had like this, like that, like that, like that." "All right you will have all." (laughter) Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to save himself in this way, that..."Yes, all are granted," but still he had to die. All granted. So we are trying to take facilities from Kṛṣṇa beginning from "O God, give us our daily bread, then give me motorcar, then give me airplane, then give me this, give me that." "Take all, but you will never be happy unless you surrender to Me. You take all." This is going on. The modern civilization, they are wanting, "We may have this, we may have that, we may have this, we may have that." "Yes, you take all. But don't talk of happiness, please." That is the only problem. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66], if you want this. Otherwise, you take whatever you like.

 

N98:720704R2.NY                                                                                                                                          520268

Prabhupāda: Home-made soap, you can make?

Devotee: I could make it if I found out how. I don't know the ingredients.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: I don't know the ingredients, but I could find out the ingredients and the process, I could try.

Prabhupāda: Who can make home-made soap. You can?

Devotee (11): We will be making in...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (11): ...the Spiritual Sky business. We'll be making. It's the same business, this soap, I think.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not needed.

 

N98:720928MW.LA                                                                                                                                        521003

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Most people, including scientists, they are not satisfied with the arrangement of nature.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they are making all these things.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. We cannot change the arrangement of the nature. That is not possible. What we have changed?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to be really happy, and so they say the...

Prabhupāda: No, you be happy, that is nice, because happiness is our position. According to Vedic civilization, every living entity is by nature should be happy. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. That is the nature, to become happy. But if you say that the arrangement of nature is not perfect, then you are fool.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why these people are saying that God created the universe, but still they say, "We want more." (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What does he want more? Suppose we require water, so there is ample water. You require a little salt for your eating, so there are so much salt. So what do you want more? Everything is perfect and it is sufficient. What does he want more? If you want more motorcar, the more motorcars you are getting you are risking your life by accident, and you have to construct so many flyways.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is only in this direction that people are working so hard, because they want more and more.

Prabhupāda: They are working hard because they are hogs and dogs. There is no need of working hard. Nature's arrangement is so perfect that if you live natural life, there is no need of hard work. This tree is standing in one place; it is not at all working. How it is standing and living? It is also living entity. The birds and beasts, they have no scientific laboratory. How they are living happily? So your advanced brain means you are spoiling, you do not know how to utilize the brain. The brain wants to be utilized for searching out Kṛṣṇa, but instead of Kṛṣṇa, you are searching out ashes, that's all. Brain is being misused.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this search for these symptoms are based only on the bodily comforts or bodily aspects.

Prabhupāda: But where you are getting the bodily comforts? Supposing you are (indistinct). The (indistinct) searches after bodily comfort, but still they are not getting bodily comfort. Where is the bodily comfort? There is disease, there is old age. Where is bodily comfort? You cannot stop it. It is very good that you are searching after bodily comfort, but there are so many discomforts of the body and the mind. You cannot stop it, then where is your actually benefit of searching out bodily comfort? You could not do it. Where is bodily comfort?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, they will say that in early history people used to live in the caves and they used to wear skins.

Prabhupāda: That is your rascal's conception. They used to live in palaces. You are rascal; you do not know the history.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that they used to live..., the history, because they don't have the complete information.

Prabhupāda: No, you are rascal, you have rascal's history. We are not rascal; we have got another history. Why shall I accept your history? You are rascal. You be satisfied with the history that your great grandfather and his father used to live in the cave. But we don't accept. Our forefather used to live in palace. Sixteen thousand palaces, Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) So you rascal, you live with your own history. Why you force your rascaldom history upon us? We are not going to accept. We get history from five thousand years ago. You have no history beyond three thousand years. But we give the shortest history, five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa. And how much intelligent from historical point of view Kṛṣṇa was. We can understand from His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is not that because we are Kṛṣṇaites we are canvassing. The whole world is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Why, unless there is intelligence? All scholars, all religionists, all philosophers, they are giving attention to Bhagavad-gītā. So how you can say Kṛṣṇa was living in the cave? Your forefather might be living in a cave, but our forefather did not live in a cave but palaces. Your forefather is a monkey, according to that history.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So people completely lack the real knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they give all these books. When we started school, we are taught with these..., or we are supplied with this information right from the beginning, the history of mankind and then how this started. So they give all this information.

Prabhupāda: Stone Age. What is that, Stone Age? And before that?

Jayatīrtha: Dinosaurs.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayatīrtha: Before that they had dinosaurs.

Devotee (2): Prehistoric.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Jayatirtha: Even from a commonsense point of view, it's easy to understand that there's been civilization longer than five thousand years (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Our proposition is the first creature of this universe is Lord Brahmā, who has created the universe. First creature of this universe, the most intelligent person. How we can accept the nonsense that this has developed from stone? (Sanskrit) cakra bhagavān (Sanskrit). Do you know this story?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) cakra bhagavān (Sanskrit). So there was a circle of friends. So all the friends conspired to make another friend bewildered. So they conspired that "As soon as you meet that gentleman you cry, 'Oh, here is a ghost! Here is a ghost! Here is a ghost!' " So all the friends, they come (indistinct), "Oh! You are dead, you are ghost, you are ghost!" So after ten times like that, he thought, "Have I become a ghost?" Then he became bewildered, "Whether really I have become ghost, I am dead?" He became puzzled. This is like that: "There was no human being, there was no human being," and all the rascals are now thinking whether this is right. This is cakra bhagavān (Sanskrit). If you make conspiracy, even the sane man will think himself that "I have become ghost."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The influence of the...

Prabhupāda: Yes, propaganda. That is the cause of India's cultural falldown. These Britishers simply made propaganda that "Whatever you have got in India, this is all allegory, fiction. These śāstras are nothing. But now you are learning from us England's work in India, that is your real...You are becoming civilized now. Otherwise, you are in the utopia, and all these śāstras, throw it out." Because that was Lord Macauley's policy. Lord Macauley was sent to report how Indians can be governed nicely. So he reported that if you keep the Indians as Indians, you will never be able to govern them, because they are superior. You make propaganda that they are inferior and they will imitate you and then you can...That they did.

Jayatīrtha: The Indians would never be able to compete on the Britishers' platform.

Prabhupāda: No. Under the British rule, from the childhood they are subjected to the propaganda. We read one book, small book, by M. Ghose. The subject matter was England's work in India. That was a compulsory reading book in the schools. And in that book, it was simply stated that "we are uncivilized, but since the Britishers have come, we are becoming civilized. "This is the subject matter of that book, "England's work in India." So everything Indian...The Jawaharlal is the typical example--everything Indian is bad. That was his philosophy. Gandhi was trying to get the Indians back to village. His philosophy was that these capitalists, they are exploiting these poor men, so all these poor men, they should go back to village and be satisfied with the village economy, not to come out. Actually that's a very nice program. But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed--industrialization and attract the poor man and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charka.

Jayatīrtha: Spinning wheel.

Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, they were spinning thread. Simple life and morality. No drinking of (indistinct) or tea, no smoking, and raghupati rāghava rāja rāma. This was his program. Hindu-Muslim unity. But all his programs failed. He died very dissatisfied.

Jayatīrtha: Why did they fail?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayatīrtha: Why was it the programs failed?

Prabhupāda: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like the Western countries. They did not want...Just like all the politicians, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their (indistinct), that's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know, you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated. So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them, all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy: if you don't like anyone, shoot. So if your fathers and grandfathers they could not make you right, then send them to Vietnam to be killed. This is going on. Suicidal policy. If when a good man becomes too much frustrated, he commits suicide. That is also very current in your country. But the same suicidal policy, these boys, hippies, they could not reform them--kill them, that's all.

Jayatīrtha: If they don't commit suicide, then they begin taking drugs.

Prabhupāda: That is also another suicide.

                                                                                                                                                                       

 

                                                                                                                                                                        521045

These skyscraper buildings are no better than caves. They live here, and here is bathroom, here is kitchen, here is (indistinct) room, three inches. (laughter) Is that advanced civilization? Advanced civilization means every man must have sufficient space to live. Why do you create this path? People will recreate, they will feel repressed, so space is required for refreshment. So what is this civilization? Three inches room.

Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) as man progresses, the mark of his progression is his ability to use tools to a greater extent. Like there was the Stone Age. In the Stone Age, they used stones for tools. Then there was the Bronze Age, so they made weapons out of bronze, knives and so on. Then they invented the wheel.

Prabhupāda: Modern age.

Jayatīrtha: So as their science progressed, then they progressed and were able to utilize nature.

Prabhupāda: So what is that progress? The caves are still there, somebody is living here. Then where is the progress? As the caves are still there and somebody is living here and skyscrapers, they are also, similarly, when you (indistinct) the cave (indistinct), there were palaces(?) but we could not see them. Both things are existing, but you studied only one side. Here is your history, see. Kṛṣṇa has sixteen thousand palaces and there was no need of light. Jewels, all jewels. Everything is existing side by side.

 

N98:740910RC.VRN                                                                                                                                       257403

Prabhupada: That is a fact. But this higher and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in the communistic countries That cannot...., you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer, best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Krushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it.

This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit, that "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how you can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things..., Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been, but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to...They write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore, Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām. You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām?

Devotee (1): "Without envy"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious, whole world. I am envious of you, you are envious of me. That Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious persons. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām, those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take other's money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that--you perhaps know it--that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to..., he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is an animal, it was deluded that "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." So even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also. So how can you stop it? That will be not stopped. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working.

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be (indistinct). In the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful, young woman but you will be (indistinct). That is the difference. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam.

vikrīòitaṁ idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ vraja-vadhūbhir

śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ

bhaktiṁ parāṁ (bhagavati) pratilabhya kāmaṁ

hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

Acireṇa dhīraḥ. So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra. He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desires, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch (indistinct). Never satisfied. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam, that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease. Lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease, similarly, all these living entities they have succumbed--what is called, succumb?--by lusty desires. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be...Then there is no more envious that "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking "I shall become minister," somebody is thinking "I shall become leader," somebody is thinking "I shall become millionaire," and at last, "I shall become God." So even the so-called religionist, that heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī. Bhukti means ordinary karmīs want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti, they also want "I shall become God, I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." One with God means I'll become. Bhukti-mukti and siddhi. The yogis, they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing, (indistinct) Baba. He has some yogic siddhi, so he has some (indistinct). Otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that "If I pay him one lakh, I shall get two lakhs." This is the propaganda. It is a..., what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful you will get four rupees. Siddhi. Because material world, they think "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking--nationwise, individual--how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris the most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished. (indistinct) it is burst out into war. So we see the propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen?

Devotee (2): They have a pyramid?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have brought.

Devotee (1): It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt.

Prabhupāda: And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In the Rome, they are also maintaining such museums, and Paris I saw. This is their competition--wholesale plundering, wholesale plundering.

Devotee (2): They take it...(break)

Prabhupāda: We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not the civilization. And Mahābhārata history also we find so many demons. Just like..., what is called, that asura, he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses.

Devotee (2): Bhaumāsura?

Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They prayed to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of...Then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes (indistinct). This is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle (indistinct). The Musselman nawabs, they used to keep...That one nawab, they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the (indistinct). So he has got three wives--one Bengali wife, one (indistinct) wife, and his original wife being Jain. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am a king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his.

Devotee (2): He cannot keep them satisfied.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? He's an old man and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection, beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is (indistinct). This is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally.

Devotee (1): They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class.

Prabhupāda: That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy.

Devotee (1): This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment.

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) He is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascal's poetry, just like in your country, one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside:) You should not show your feet before the Deity. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu: "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody will agree. Therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? (indistinct)

Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated.

Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?" (indistinct) She has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road, the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal (indistinct) an apartment, very nice apartment (indistinct). It is (indistinct), either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no (indistinct)

Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, that he will accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness.

Devotee (2): Therefore, let me eliminate you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsarata(?). Yayā sammohito jīva.

bhakti-yogena manasi

samyak praṇihite 'male

apaśyat puruṣaṁ pūrṇaṁ

māyāṁ ca tad-apāśrayam

Yayā sammohito jīva. Vyāsadeva, by bhakti-yoga, he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā...Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva. That māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam. And being captivated by this maya, although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate. In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw.

So this is called anartha, a position which is false. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ. The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore, Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. These things are there in the Bhāgavata. Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau, for the benefit of the (indistinct). We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī, they do for their own person. Karmīs, jïānīs, yogis, for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau. Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Narottama dāsa Öhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāïi yāra, tāra mui dāsa, "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant."

ei chaya gosā'i yāra, tāra mui dāsa,

tāì' sabāra pada-reṇu mora pa'ca-grāsa                                                                                                   

"I want to only eat the dust of the (indistinct)."

tāìdera caraṇa sevi bhakta-sane vāsa

janame janame haya, ei abhilāṣa

Everything is there; simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing (indistinct). This Kṛṣṇa consciousness means the life of realization, self-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself (indistinct), "What I am?" (break)

But if you remain diseased, then just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First-class things are being made--nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom (indistinct)." Similarly, the so-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there: "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogis, they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta'. By kṛṣṇa-bhakti, you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ. This is the only...Unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam. (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, (indistinct). Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām. The material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step...(end)

 

N98:740911RC.VRN                                                                                                                                       525432

Yamunacarya, he was a great king. So his.... As king, his life was sex. But when he became a devotee, he admits, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde: "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saìgame smaryamāne, "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ, "I taste that (indistinct)," suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ, (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct). Otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting noise)--"What is this?"--then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is beginning. This is the proof, Yamunacarya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saìgame smaryamāne. So not actually doing, simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting noise). What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing--the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata, hear Bhāgavata, rasa-līlā. They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā, then that lusty desires will be finished.

vikrīòitaṁ idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ vraja-vadhūbhir

śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ

bhaktiṁ parāṁ (bhagavati) pratilabhya kāmaṁ

hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source (indistinct), then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ. Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same thing. They publish book. One rascal, Bhaṭṭācārya(?), has published. In Paris we saw.

Devotee (2): The Myth of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nations.

Gurudāsa: The United Nations is also encouraging sex.

Prabhupāda: They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered around that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. That is there. They do not know anything else.

Brahmānanda: That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Freud's philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam. Haridāsa Öhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Öhākura took his compassion, "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she became purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end)

 

N98:710628DA.SF                                                                                                                                          517929

The sannyāsīs are meant for preaching and the GBC's are meant for managing. In this way do it. Now you give me relief--I go on writing books, that's all. So Viṣṇujana Mahārāja, your preaching is going on nice?

Viṣṇujana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī should be always preaching. Parivrājakācārya. Four stages of sannyāsa: kuṭīcaka, bahūdaka, parivrājaka, and paramahaṁsa. In the beginning...Because according to Vedic civilization everyone has to take sannyāsa at a certain age. So as a matter of routine if he takes sannyāsa...Just like this old man I was asking that "Now you have children grown up, why don't you take sannyāsa?" But he is hesitating. Nobody likes, because sannyāsa life is difficult. So first there is kuṭīcaka means he gives up the connection of the family life, takes sannyāsa officially, but he is not accustomed to maintain himself independently; therefore, he goes out of the village and makes a cottage and lives there. And the foodstuff, the home supply, that is called kuṭīca. Kuṭī means cottage. Then when he is little practiced, then he says family members that "Don't bring foodstuffs. I shall go to every village man and ask something for my food. I shall depend on them, not on you." That is called bahūdaka. Bahū means many. Not accepting food from one place but from many. Then when he is prac...Because first problem is problem, when he is practiced, "Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us food, so why shall I remain in one place? Let me preach." That is called parivrājakācārya, when he is preaching. Parivrājaka. Parivrājaka means wandering all over. Then when he is experienced, when his preaching is done, he can sit down in one place. At that time, he can chant simply Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Öhākura. And if he imitates from the very beginning, he will be spoiled, that's all. Because in the beginning, if I take Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it is (indistinct). (laughter) Don't do this. Always be busy. First stage, last stage. When one is paramahaṁsa just like Haridāsa Öhākura, three hundred thousand times, no eating unless he finishes his chanting. No eating, no sleeping. That is another thing. "I shall eat so much, I shall sleep so much, and I shall do nothing, simply chanting." No. That is not recommended by my Guru Mahārāja. He says that you are cheating people. (Bengali) There is a song written by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī: "What kind of Vaiṣṇava you are?" (Bengali) "Your chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in a secluded place," (Bengali) "is simply cheating." What do you know what you are chanting? First of all prepare yourself to come to the stage of perfect chanting. This is sevā. Always be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service: how to decorate the temple, how to invite people, giving the feast, write books, distribute books and knowledge. In this way don't sit idly. Always be engaged, always. Just like our Karandhara, he has taken so much responsibility. He is doing. I am very pleased. He is prepared to do the masonry work and building work and distribution of book, accounting. In this way, we shall be always busy. Find out some work. I have no work now. Of course, the sixteen rounds must be chanted hundred percent. Rest time, simply find out where is Kṛṣṇa's work. Why sixteen rounds? It only takes two hours, you have got twenty-four hours. What you will do twenty-four hours? You cannot sleep more than six hours, seven hours, that's all. So two hours chanting and seven hours sleeping. Sleeping is a very important thing in your country, but reduce it. As much as you reduce sleeping and eating, you will become advanced.

That is the Gosvāmīs, nidrāhāra-vihāra-vijitau, conquered over sleeping, eating, and mating. Because these three, four things āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithun..., these are material life. The spiritual life means reduction of these things. When it is nil, no more sleeping, no more eating, that is spiritual..., perfection of spiritual life. So we cannot make it nil so long this body is there, but our policy should be like that. Policy should be like that. We shall not eat more, we shall not sleep more, we shall not mate more. Those who are gṛhasthas, they can have sex life only for producing children, that's all, no more. And those who are sannyāsī, brahmacārī, they have no sex life, there is no question of sex life. Sex life is prohibited. But it is a concession for them who cannot live without sex life. That is married life. Otherwise, sex life is not very important thing. Just like there are brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they have no sex life. Therefore, this sannyāsa, to go out of home by force, that means to avoid sex life, sannyāsa. You see? I think those who have got children, they should take sannyāsa now and preach. That is my idea. Not (indistinct) idea, because all the great sages, they waited if they are married. Just like Kapila Muni..., Kardama, Kardama Muni. Kardama Muni, he was a great yogi. So he was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa sent him good wife, Devahūti, a king's daughter. So he thought, "I was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa has sent. All right, let me marry." But he made a condition to her father that "I can accept your daughter as my wife so long she has no children. As soon as she has children, I shall go away." So the father agreed, "Whatever you like, you can do. I'm just placing my wife in your custody." So the sannyāsī..., when there is a child of the wife, I think one can accept sannyāsa.

But preaching is our most important business. People are suffering for want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So as representative of Kṛṣṇa, it is our duty to enlighten them, and we should accept all kinds of...But there is no difficulty. Where is the difficulty? I think we are living better than anyone in the world. (laughter) Where is the difficulty? Simply we have to be very sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Everything Kṛṣṇa will supply. Everything. So in that position, go on preaching. Don't be tottering. You have taken a great responsibility; go on executing it. Don't fight amongst yourselves for petty things. Go on, advance. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) Now we are going to have a great ceremony in India, Māyāpur. They have got...I have purchased one land. I took contribution 25,000 from Birla. I wanted 100,000, he gave me 25,000. That's all right. So with that money I purchased one land. So it is just to be developed. The foundation stone, cornerstone laying down. In India we require another..., altogether at least one hundred men, Americans. So contribute some men from each and every center. We have got fifty centers..., how many centers now?

Viṣṇujana: Seventy, I heard.

Karandhara: Almost sixty, fifty-eight.

Prabhupāda: So give one man from each center. It doesn't require that he is very advanced. Advancement will be done by training, by practical application in life. If you send from each center one man to India...If you can send more, that's all right. But at least one man. In India we have got many things to do. Because the business in India is important in this respect, that partly due to their subjugation by foreigners, their original culture has been killed. Just like in India, they did not know drinking tea, drinking wine, meat-eating, illicit sex. They did not know. Even fifty, a hundred years before, they did not know. These Britishers, in order to control them, very silently introduced all these things. I know in our childhood, this drinking of tea was unknown to any family. Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on. So at the present moment there is great propaganda from the side of the government and others to kill India's original culture. So when Americans go there and preach and they see, "Oh, so nice Vaiṣṇava, so nice devotee and so pure," they will become attracted, because that is their original culture. At heart they want to do that, but by artificial means they are being forced to accept something else. So when they see these foreigners and Americans so... And government is not very favorable of my movement there, because it is natural when the Americans exhibit a nice, pure Vaiṣṇava, they come attracted. Just like Calcutta and Bombay, what was there? The same Deity was and saìkīrtana was there and I was speaking say for a half an hour. But why these forty thousand, thirty thousand people were coming? They were coming to see, "Oh, how Americans have taken to this philosophy(?)." That is their surprise. They are giving credit only for that purpose. This man also. So there is good chance of preaching in India in this respect. We want some men to preach there. It will be great work. So I think in each center, from each center you can contribute one man, and some of you leaders may go. There are already, organize. People are very much attracted. They are wanting..., giving us money, they want to give us place, there is no scarcity of food, there is no question. But this Immigration Department, they will harass. But we have to manage somehow or other. We shall have to keep always at least 100 men in India. So how to do it? That we will consider and do it. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Now chalk out your plan how to preach nicely all over the world. So Viṣṇujana Maharaja, how many centers?

Viṣṇujana: Just two.

Prabhupāda: Two, that's all right. You have to do another eight. (laughter) Yes. That's nice. [break]

Devotee (1): So do you want to give (indistinct) authorization to take sannyāsa as soon as possible?

Prabhupāda: That I tell you, not immediately. But our main business is preaching. Either do it as a gṛhastha or as sannyāsī, it does not matter. This is only formality. The real work is preaching. Just like Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha and Lord Caitanya was a sannyāsī, but He was taking lesson from Rāmānanda Rāya. This is Caitanya-līlā. He is a sannyāsī and He is God Himself, He is taking lesson from a grhastha who is His disciple. So the real thing is preaching must go on sincerely. This gṛhastha, vānaprastha, these are material regulative principles. Real life is Kṛṣṇa's service. That we have to do, that's all. So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better...A gṛhastha is better. Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya

[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

Preaching work is for the guru. So Kṛṣṇa...Caitanya Mahāprabhu says it doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or vānaprastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preaches, then he is guru. That's all. So we have to become like that. It doesn't matter what we are, but whether I am preaching nicely. That is required. But still there is some regulative principles like sannyāsī and brahmacārī will be like this, gṛhastha will be like this. That is the external. But the main business is preaching. So you have got good opportunity, you have got good name, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is being appreciated. So live very cautiously and preach very cautiously and seriously, then in this one life you will become successful, go back to home, back to Godhead. One life. You haven't got to wait for another life. If this life we work sincerely, then our business is finished. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is assured by Kṛṣṇa. "After giving up this body, he doesn't come to this material world." Then where does he go? Mām eti, "He comes to Me." This is said by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall we disbelieve? So serve this life very sincerely and go back to Kṛṣṇa immediately. That is intelligence. Why should you wait for another life? We do not know what life we can get. May not be possible. So we should be very responsible to this life in serving Kṛṣṇa. Make yourself successful. Don't waste a single moment. Every moment should be utilized to serve Kṛṣṇa. Always think, how I can serve Kṛṣṇa? The direction is already there. The work is sufficient. If you don't want to do, that is a different thing. There is sufficient work to do. If you cannot do anything, you can go and meet any man and request him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." What is the difficulty? You can request. That your endeavor to request him is your service. He may not chant. But if you request him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa..." If you cannot do anything, if you meet anyone in the street and say "Please...(end)

 

Room Conversation                                              August 10,1973, Paris                                                  353357

 

Prabhupāda: You may be in any material condition. Still you can develop your spiritual consciousness. That is there. But sometimes we accept a certain position for our personal convenience. That is another thing. But spiritual consciousness is not dependent on any material condition. It is spontaneous. Either he's a householder or a sannyāsī or brahmacārī or business man, or... It doesn't matter. He can become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious if he accepts the principles. [break] ...we have got our regulative principles, no illicit sex. So is it very difficult thing? A householder has got his wife. Why he should indulge in illicit sex? It is simply self-control. (aside:) You can keep it here. If somebody comes, you shall give him.

Guru-gaurāìga: If our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dependent on some material condition which we are in, then our material condition is superior to God consciousness. "Oh, I am a businessman. I cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious." That means business is more than Kṛṣṇa.

Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, but I think that we have to have businessmen who are business conscious. Otherwise our world would come to a stand still.

Guru-gaurāìga: Exactly.

Anna Conan Doyle: And even you people you have to have people donate like we have the Catholic church...

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is...

Anna Conan Doyle: ...is to make from the people are working, we are dependent on the materialistic man also...

Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is that we are not satisfied with our living condition. Suppose I am, I have got this body. To maintain this body, I require my food, and for getting the food, I must have some money. I must have some occupation. This is one thing. But people are now... Suppose one thousand francs will provide his family, himself. He's not satisfied with one thousand francs. He wants ten thousand. That is the fault. Therefore he does not find time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Anna Conan Doyle: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the disease. Otherwise, if, if everyone is satisfied when the necessities is supplied and balance time he saves for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no difficulty. But he is, he is always, twenty-four hours busy, how to increase, how to increase. Yes.

Anna Conan Doyle: It becomes a vice.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Yes. Yes. Greediness. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. Atyāhāra. Atyāhāra means eating more, or collecting more. So they want to eat more, collect more than necessity.

Anna Conan Doyle: That's true. They do not need all the things they have around. It is perfectly...

Prabhupāda: For livelihood, one has to work. That is material world. So you work. And what is that work? If one, one works for three months on the field, he can get his whole years' food. That is economically fact. How many mounds of grains we can produce per acre? Do you know that? We know, in our Indian calculation, we can produce at least ten mounds of grain per bighā. So if one has got ten bighās of land, he can produce hundred mounds of grains. So how much you can eat daily. Just compute it. Utmost two pounds. Utmost. So if you eat two pounds grains per day. In a month, sixty pounds. And eighty-two pounds makes one mound. You are getting one hundred mounds. Then? Ten bighās of land...

Prabhupāda: …So you get enough food by working three months. But they'll not work in the field. They'll work in the factory. The... Now the world situation is there that they have invented so many artificial work. So people are embarrassed with this kind of work. He doesn't find any time…

Prabhupāda:... So if we make our living condition very simple, there is enough time, enough time. But we don't say that you go back to the primitive stage of life. That is not possible. We simply request that wherever you are, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. Then everything will be clear.